683: Beer Summit - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #683 | September 20, 2019 683: Beer Summit Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 683 集 | 2019 年 9 月 20 日 683：啤酒峰会 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而生，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Man A quick warning-- there are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show.

序言：序言人 一个快速警告——今天的节目中有些咒语没有发出提示音。

If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, ThisAmericanLife.org.

如果您更喜欢蜂鸣声版本，您可以在我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org 上找到该版本。

Remember that old-fashioned idea that two people who disagree about politics could sit down, talk.

请记住这个老式的想法，即两个政治观点不同的人可以坐下来交谈。

Each would see the other's point of view.

每个人都会看到对方的观点。

LBJ used to quote scripture as he headed into political negotiations-- "Come, let us reason together." Now, of course, we all realize that that's impossible.

林登·约翰逊在进行政治谈判时常常引用经文——“来吧，让我们一起推理。”当然，现在我们都意识到这是不可能的。

I'm overstating for effect, but you know what I mean, right?

我夸大了效果，但你知道我的意思，对吧？

There was this famous moment a few years ago when all this seemed way more possible, a moment which was so long ago now.

几年前有一个著名的时刻，当时这一切似乎更有可能，但现在那一刻已经是很久以前的事了。

It came about because of this thing that happened at a presidential press conference.

事情的起因是总统新闻发布会上发生的这件事。

Before I take your questions, I want to talk for a few minutes about the progress we're making on health insurance reform.

在回答大家的问题之前，我想花几分钟谈谈我们在医疗保险改革方面取得的进展。

That, of course, is Barack Obama.

那当然是巴拉克·奥巴马。

The year is 2009.

时间是2009年。

One of my co-workers here at the radio show, Robyn Semien, has been revisiting this piece of very recent history.

我在广播节目中的一位同事罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 一直在重温这段最近的历史。

Because it is so recent, but feels like it's almost quaint, the fact that people thought that sitting down and talking together might work.

因为它是最近才出现的，但感觉有点古怪，事实上人们认为坐下来一起交谈可能会起作用。

Hey, Robyn.

嘿，罗宾。

Robyn Semien Hey, Ira.

罗宾·塞米恩 嘿，艾拉。

OK, so I talked to Dan Pfeiffer.

好的，我和丹·菲佛谈过。

He's the deputy communications guy in the Obama White House at the time.

他当时是奥巴马政府的副通讯员。

He was there in the room for that press conference.

他当时就在房间里参加那次新闻发布会。

So beforehand, they'd gone over with the president the 10 specific reporters they wanted him to call on.

因此，他们事先向总统询问了希望他会见的 10 名具体记者。

And he got to the end of that list.

他到达了该列表的末尾。

And instead of going off stage-- and you can tell the president was feeling very good about his performance, because it's usually when he thinks he's doing well that he will take more questions.

而不是下台——你可以看出总统对自己的表现感觉非常好，因为通常当他认为自己做得很好时，他会回答更多问题。

And nothing good ever comes of the "one more question."

“再问一个问题”不会带来任何好处。

All right.

好的。

I tried to make that short so that Lynn Sweet would get her last question in.

我试着把那句话写得简短一些，以便林恩·斯威特能回答她的最后一个问题。

Thank you, Mr. President.

谢谢总统先生。

Dan Pfeiffer And I remember this question like it was yesterday.

Dan Pfeiffer 我对这个问题的记忆就像昨天一样。

Recently, Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested at his home in Cambridge.

最近，小亨利·路易斯·盖茨教授在剑桥的家中被捕。

What does that incident say to you, and what does it say about race relations in America?

这件事对你来说意味着什么？它对美国的种族关系意味着什么？

Well, I should say at the outset that Skip Gates is a friend, so I may be a little biased here.

好吧，我首先应该说斯基普·盖茨是我的朋友，所以我在这里可能有点偏见。

I don't know all the facts.

我不知道所有的事实。

OK, so just to remind everybody, Henry Louis Gates Jr., a famous Harvard professor, African-American scholar, he comes home one night.

好吧，提醒大家一下，小亨利·路易斯·盖茨，一位著名的哈佛大学教授，非裔美国学者，有一天晚上他回家了。

He's trying to get into his own house.

他正试图进入自己的房子。

He has a problem getting in.

他进来有问题。

Like, the keys don't work or something.

比如钥匙坏了之类的。

And someone sees him and calls the police.

有人看到他并报了警。

The cops show up, and the responding officer, Sergeant James Crowley, he learns that it is, in fact, Gates' own house.

警察出现了，接到电话的警官詹姆斯·克劳利中士得知，这实际上是盖茨自己的房子。

But then they get into an argument, and it escalates, and they both have words, and then Gates gets arrested.

但随后他们发生了争吵，争吵升级，双方都有话要说，然后盖茨被捕了。

Right.

正确的。

So this comes up at the press conference.

所以这个问题就在新闻发布会上出现了。

Yeah, and President Obama is so comfortable in his skin.

是的，奥巴马总统的皮肤非常舒服。

He is so casual in this moment that he even makes this little joke that it is impossible to imagine him making now.

他此刻是如此的随意，甚至还开了一个现在根本无法想象的小玩笑。

Right, I mean, if I was trying to jigger into-- well, I guess this is my house now, so--

是的，我的意思是，如果我试图跳进——好吧，我想这现在就是我的房子了，所以——

[PRESS CORPS LAUGHING] It probably wouldn't happen.

[新闻界大笑]这可能不会发生。

But let's say my old house in Chicago-- here, I'd get shot.

但假设我在芝加哥的老房子——在这里，我会被枪杀。

OK, but then he says this.

好吧，但后来他说了这样的话。

This is the part that's going to cause all the trouble.

这是会引起所有麻烦的部分。

I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry.

我认为可以公平地说，第一，我们任何人都会非常生气。

Number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home.

第二，当已经有证据表明某人在自己家里时，剑桥警方逮捕某人的行为是愚蠢的。

And number three, what I think we know, separate and apart from this incident, is that there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately.

第三，我想我们知道，除了这起事件之外，在这个国家，非洲裔美国人和拉丁裔被执法部门拦截的情况由来已久。

And that's just a fact.

这只是事实。

So the night ends, and you're thinking that was pretty good?

夜晚结束了，你认为这很好吗？

Yeah, I felt fine.

是的，我感觉很好。

Yeah, we survived, which is the goal of any press conference.

是的，我们活了下来，这是任何新闻发布会的目标。

Usually, we'd do a press conference, I would walk back with him and sort of like do post-game analysis.

通常，我们会召开新闻发布会，我会和他一起回去，有点像做赛后分析。

But in this case, I think he might have gone upstairs to bed.

但在这种情况下，我想他可能已经上楼睡觉了。

Because I'm pretty sure we were in the East Wing, in the State Dining Room.

因为我很确定我们是在东翼的国宴厅。

So I don't remember talking to him about it that night.

所以我不记得那天晚上和他谈过这件事。

He might have talked to Valerie right afterwards.

他可能会在事后立即与瓦莱丽交谈。

Valerie Jarrett, one of Obama's senior advisors, she was at the press conference too.

奥巴马的高级顾问之一瓦莱丽·贾勒特（Valerie Jarrett）也出席了新闻发布会。

And I remember listening to the answer and thinking, yeah, that sounds right.

我记得听到答案后想，是的，听起来不错。

And then when he said the word, stupidly, I paused for a minute.

当他说出这个词时，我愚蠢地停顿了一分钟。

And then I thought about it, and I said, all right, well, when somebody gets arrested in their own home, that is pretty odd, right?

然后我想了想，我说，好吧，当有人在自己家里被捕时，这很奇怪，对吧？

And I didn't give much more thought to it.

我也没有多想。

But by the time I got from the East Room in the residence back to my office in the West Wing, it had blown up.

但当我从官邸的东厅回到西翼的办公室时，它已经爆炸了。

Oh, that night?

哦，那天晚上？

Valerie Jarrett I mean, literally within six or seven minutes.

瓦莱丽·贾勒特（Valerie Jarrett）我的意思是，实际上在六七分钟之内。

It just went viral right away.

它立刻就疯了。

It was a big deal.

这是一件大事。

Almost instantly, the reaction to him saying the word "stupidly" just was an instant problem.

几乎立刻，他说出“愚蠢”这个词的反应立刻就成了问题。

After accusing police of acting stupidly for arresting a Harvard professor in his own home, President Obama came under fire.

奥巴马总统指责警方在自己家中逮捕一名哈佛教授是愚蠢的行为，随后遭到了猛烈抨击。

Cambridge police are not stupid.

剑桥警察并不傻。

I think everybody that knows us knows that.

我想每个认识我们的人都知道这一点。

I think the president should make an apology to all law enforcement personnel throughout the entire country who took offense to this.

我认为总统应该向全国所有对此感到冒犯的执法人员道歉。

This president, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture.

我认为，这位总统一次又一次地暴露自己是一个对白人或白人文化有着根深蒂固的仇恨的人。

I don't know what it is.

我不知道那是什么。

I'm not saying that he doesn't like white people, I'm saying he has a problem.

我并不是说他不喜欢白人，我是说他有问题。

He has a-- this guy is, I believe, a racist.

我相信他是一个种族主义者。

Kind of famously.

有点出名。

Robyn Semien Yeah.

罗宾·塞米恩 是的。

So that was one reaction.

这就是一种反应。

But simultaneously, civil rights groups are calling the White House and thanking Obama for putting a spotlight on this issue that was important to them.

但与此同时，民权组织正在致电白宫，感谢奥巴马关注这个对他们来说很重要的问题。

So essentially, President Obama had effortlessly divided the country with his one word, "stupidly."

因此，从本质上讲，奥巴马总统用“愚蠢”这个词毫不费力地分裂了这个国家。

It was not intended to trigger-- polarize the police from the communities that they serve and protect.

它的目的并不是要引发警察与他们所服务和保护的社区之间的两极分化。

It was really kind of an offhanded comment.

这确实是一种不经意的评论。

And if, perhaps, he hadn't said "stupidly," things would not have gotten as derailed as they did.

或许，如果他没有说“愚蠢”的话，事情就不会像现在这样出轨。

If he had said, for example, "It's understandable that Skip would be annoyed that a police officer would arrest him in his home," I think people would have said, yeah, I'd be annoyed.

例如，如果他说，“斯基普会因为警察在他家里逮捕他而生气，这是可以理解的”，我想人们会说，是的，我会生气。

But when he said something about the police officer's intent or behavior, I think that's what got under people's skin.

但当他谈到警察的意图或行为时，我认为这就是人们的愤怒所在。

So inside the White House, they go into full crisis mode.

因此，在白宫内部，他们进入了全面的危机模式。

They're hoping it'll die down, but it doesn't.

他们希望它会消失，但事实并非如此。

So they come up with this idea to invite Gates and Crowley to the White House to sit down and have a beer.

于是他们就想出了这个主意，邀请盖茨和克劳利到白宫坐下来喝杯啤酒。

And then that led the press to become very interested in what I believe they deemed the Beer Summit.

然后这导致媒体对我认为他们所谓的啤酒峰会非常感兴趣。

And there were demands for them to cover the Beer Summit, as if it would be some violation of norms and transparency if they did not get a chance to take a picture of the Beer Summit.

有人要求他们报道啤酒峰会，好像如果他们没有机会拍摄啤酒峰会的照片，那就违反了规范和透明度。

And yeah, we didn't want to make it a thing.

是的，我们不想让它成为一件事。

Ira Glass So they get together for beers to calm the nation down.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）于是他们聚在一起喝啤酒，让全国人民平静下来。

People take pictures.

人们拍照。

And as we all know, that did not work.

众所周知，这是行不通的。

Yeah, no, it still comes up.

是的，不，它仍然出现。

Like a month ago, as you know, our colleague, Zoe Chace, was at a Trump rally in New Hampshire to talk to people there about why the country is so divided.

如您所知，就像一个月前一样，我们的同事佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 参加了新罕布什尔州的特朗普集会，与那里的人们谈论为什么这个国家如此分裂。

And two separate people brought this up on their own, pointed to this as the moment that they knew that Obama was out to divide the country.

两个不同的人自己提出了这个问题，并指出这是他们知道奥巴马要分裂国家的时刻。

What he did, his first-- what, within his first year, he went after the cops in Cambridge.

他所做的，他的第一次——在他的第一年里，他追捕了剑桥的警察。

I think that's when it really started.

我想那是它真正开始的时候。

He started it.

他开始了。

Just the things that he did, starting with the Beer Summit we had in Cambridge.

这就是他所做的事情，从我们在剑桥举行的啤酒峰会开始。

You know, all these dumb things that he did, you know?

你知道，他做过的所有这些蠢事，你知道吗？

It was his agenda.

这是他的议程。

OK, so Beer Summit did not unify America.

好吧，啤酒峰会并没有统一美国。

Right.

正确的。

I have thought about this so much since it happened, just the casual way that President Obama stepped into this.

自从这件事发生以来，我一直在思考这个问题，只是奥巴马总统以一种不经意的方式介入了这件事。

I've wondered if he was like, I set the table already with the race conversation as a candidate, so people know where I'm coming from.

我想知道他是否会说，我作为候选人已经在竞选谈话中摆好了桌子，所以人们知道我来自哪里。

I wondered if maybe he was just trying to test the waters right then.

我想知道他当时是否只是想试水。

Maybe he just thought, well, let's just see how-- let's just see where we are.

也许他只是想，好吧，让我们看看如何——让我们看看我们在哪里。

I don't know that there was that much thought.

我不知道有这么多想法。

I think, to your point-- and honestly, Robyn, I haven't thought about this before you put it to me.

我想，就你的观点而言——老实说，罗宾，在你告诉我之前我还没有考虑过这个问题。

But I'm sure, because the race speech had gone so well, and was embraced broadly, and was so raw and honest about himself, he hoped that people had a better sense of who he was.

但我确信，因为竞选演讲进行得如此顺利，并受到广泛接受，而且对自己如此原始和诚实，他希望人们能更好地了解他是谁。

And because he had won the presidency and had comported himself throughout his short tenure at that point as a president for all of America, I think perhaps he thought he had the standing to say that and not experience the backlash.

因为他赢得了总统职位，并且在他作为全美国总统的短暂任期内表现出色，我想也许他认为他有资格这么说，而不会遭受强烈反对。

And so that was a teaching moment, too, that, you know--

所以那也是一个教学时刻，你知道——

For him.

为了他。

Valerie Jarrett For him.

瓦莱丽·贾勒特 对于他来说。

For all of us, yeah.

对于我们所有人来说，是的。

Robyn Semien Dan told me he thinks that it wasn't what Obama said, but that he was the first black president in the White House.

罗宾·塞米恩·丹告诉我，他认为这不是奥巴马所说的，而是他是白宫第一位黑人总统。

And that if it wasn't this, it would have been something else.

如果不是这个，那就是别的东西了。

OK, but if the goal of the Beer Summit was just three people sitting around trying to understand each other a little bit better, like, even for those people did it work?

好吧，但如果啤酒峰会的目标只是三个人坐在一起试图更好地了解彼此，那么，即使对那些人来说，这也有效吗？

I mean, yeah, it kind of did.

我的意思是，是的，确实如此。

Like, they were really mad before.

就像，他们之前真的很生气。

And then after the Beer Summit, Sergeant Crowley did this press conference where he says, you know, we agree that we both have a lot to learn from each other, and we want to stay in touch.

啤酒峰会结束后，克劳利中士举行了新闻发布会，他说，你知道，我们都同意我们有很多东西需要互相学习，我们希望保持联系。

And they stay in touch?

他们保持联系吗？

Robyn Semien Yeah, it seems like it.

Robyn Semien 是的，看起来是这样。

Since then, Gates has said that he and Sergeant Crowley have developed a really good relationship.

从那时起，盖茨表示他和克劳利中士建立了非常良好的关系。

And then he did this thing-- you know, he has this PBS TV show where he tests celebrities' DNA and tells them about their history.

然后他做了这件事——你知道，他有一个 PBS 电视节目，他在其中测试名人的 DNA 并告诉他们他们的历史。

So he asked Crowley to do a DNA test, and found out that they have a common Irish ancestor, a cousin.

于是他请克劳利做了DNA测试，结果发现他们有一个共同的爱尔兰祖先，一个表兄弟。

So Robyn, in other words, it is possible for people to get along and become friends, and see each other's points of view, especially around the magic potion that we call beer.

换句话说，罗宾，人们可以相处并成为朋友，并了解彼此的观点，尤其是围绕我们称之为啤酒的神奇药水。

But we live in a country where most of the nation, for one reason or another, chooses not to believe that.

但在我们生活的国家，大多数人出于某种原因选择不相信这一点。

It seems that way, yeah.

看起来是这样，是的。

Ira Glass Well, that is actually our show today, people sitting down trying to see the other person's point of view over beer.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：嗯，这实际上就是我们今天的节目，人们坐下来一边喝啤酒，一边试图了解对方的观点。

In all these stories-- no kidding-- beer is involved at a critical turning point.

在所有这些故事中——不是开玩笑——啤酒都涉及到一个关键的转折点。

In one story, the fate of an entire nation is at stake.

在一个故事中，整个国家的命运受到威胁。

Actually, now that I think of it, it's true for the other story, too.

事实上，现在想起来，另一个故事也是如此。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, "One for My Baby, and One More for the Road." So with everybody in the United States and Europe breaking off into political groups who seem to understand each other less and less these days, this German journalist named Bastian Berbner spent the last three years reporting on people from these kinds of groups that dislike and mistrust each other, and see things very differently, who actually sit down and try to get along.

第一幕，“一件给我的宝宝，另一件给路上。”因此，如今，随着美国和欧洲的每个人都分裂成政治团体，而这些政治团体似乎彼此之间的了解越来越少，这位名叫巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳的德国记者在过去三年里一直在报道来自这些团体的人们，这些团体彼此不喜欢和不信任，对事物的看法截然不同，但他们实际上坐下来试图相处。

He's traveled to a bunch of different countries looking for examples of this, where people do indeed somehow come to see eye to eye.

他去过许多不同的国家寻找这方面的例子，在那里人们确实以某种方式达成了一致的看法。

So for example, in Denmark, he interviewed policemen who decided that the very best way to combat the most radical people they faced-- jihadists and neo-Nazis-- was to invite them in for coffee, with, I have to say, amazing results.

例如，在丹麦，他采访了警察，他们认为打击他们所面对的最激进的人——圣战分子和新纳粹分子——的最好方法就是邀请他们喝咖啡，我不得不说，效果惊人。

And the most extreme example of this that he found was in Botswana, where for decades now, the government has been running this kind of big social experiment to fight tribalism.

他发现的最极端的例子是在博茨瓦纳，几十年来，政府一直在进行这种大型社会实验来对抗部落主义。

Basically what happens is that, every year, the government tells thousands of civil servants to just pack up their belongings and move, sometimes very far from home, to live and work with people who are sometimes very different from them.

基本上每年发生的情况是，政府告诉成千上万的公务员收拾行李搬家，有时离家很远，与有时与他们非常不同的人生活和工作。

This plan is not popular.

这个计划并不受欢迎。

Sometimes a parent is forced to work hundreds of miles from their own family.

有时，父母被迫在距离家人数百英里的地方工作。

But the government has stubbornly stuck with this policy for decades.

但数十年来，政府一直顽固地坚持这一政策。

Here's Bastian.

这是巴斯蒂安。

Bastian Berbner When Botswana became independent from Britain in 1966, it was one of the last African countries to do so.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔布纳 (Bastian Berbner) 博茨瓦纳于 1966 年脱离英国独立，是最后一批独立的非洲国家之一。

Imagine, the colonialists leave and you are the first president of Botswana.

想象一下，殖民主义者离开后，您成为博茨瓦纳的第一任总统。

For years, all around you, you have seen the same story over and over again-- countries become independent, ethnic violence follows.

多年来，在你周围，你一遍又一遍地看到同样的故事——国家独立，种族暴力随之而来。

Mali became independent in 1960.

马里于1960年独立。

Two years later, the Tuaregs started a civil war.

两年后，图阿雷格人爆发内战。

Congo, same story.

刚果，同样的故事。

Soon after its independence, the province of Katanga tried to break away.

独立后不久，加丹加省试图脱离。

Nigeria-- independence in 1960, very soon the Igbos and Hausa started clashing.

尼日利亚——1960年独立，很快伊博斯人和豪萨人就开始发生冲突。

Having seen all of that, the early leaders in Botswana knew they had a problem.

看到这一切后，博茨瓦纳的早期领导人知道他们遇到了问题。

Because the exact thing that had fueled the violence in all those countries, they had it as well.

因为正是在所有这些国家助长暴力的事情，他们也有。

If you think about that these borders were just drawn up.

如果你想一想，这些边界只是刚刚制定的。

And some of them really straight borders.

其中一些边界确实很直。

They could have cut through a person, literally, you know.

他们可以切开一个人，从字面上看，你知道。

This is Unity Dow, the foreign minister of Botswana.

我是博茨瓦纳外交部长尤尼蒂·道。

She was a kid back in the '60s, when a few people in London drew the borders of her country on a map, creating Botswana.

六十年代，她还是个孩子，当时伦敦的几个人在地图上画出了她国家的边界​​，创建了博茨瓦纳。

And like in all those other places in Africa, they were putting a bunch of ethnic groups together that didn't really like each other-- the Kalanga in the north, the Bakwena south of the Kalahari Desert, the Bangwato in the center.

就像非洲所有其他地方一样，他们把一群彼此并不真正喜欢的民族聚集在一起——北部的卡兰加人、卡拉哈里沙漠南部的巴奎纳人、中部的班瓦托人。

In Botswana, everyone refers to these groups as tribes.

在博茨瓦纳，每个人都将这些群体称为部落。

So that's what I'm going to say in this story.

这就是我在这个故事中要说的。

In Botswana, there were 20 tribes, give or take.

在博茨瓦纳，或多或少有 20 个部落。

They spoke different languages, had different traditions, and now they were forced into one country.

他们说不同的语言，有不同的传统，现在他们被迫进入一个国家。

So the early leaders figured, to avoid that kind of violence here, what we need to do is break up the tribal identities and form a true nation.

所以早期的领导人认为，为了避免这里发生这种暴力，我们需要做的是打破部落身份并建立一个真正的国家。

No more us, no more them, just a we.

不再是我们，不再是他们，只有我们。

But how do you do that?

但你如何做到这一点呢？

They came up with a plan.

他们想出了一个计划。

First, they decided, everyone needs to understand each other.

首先，他们决定，每个人都需要互相理解。

So in schools, they would only teach English and Setswana-- the other tribe languages, not at all.

所以在学校里，他们只教英语和茨瓦纳语——其他部落语言，根本不教。

Second, to keep people from fighting over land, they gave a piece of land to anyone who wished.

其次，为了防止人们争夺土地，他们将一块土地送给任何愿意的人。

And they said everything underneath that land belongs to the state.

他们说这片土地下的一切都属于国家。

This is important, because this is one of the diamond-richest countries on Earth.

这很重要，因为这是地球上钻石最丰富的国家之一。

So what happens if I'm given a piece of land, I settle there, I dig, and I find a rich diamond mine.

那么，如果我有一块土地，我在那里定居，我挖掘，然后我发现了一个丰富的钻石矿，会发生什么？

Well, you get moved.

好吧，你感动了。

Bastian Berbner What do you mean?

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳 你什么意思？

That you get moved.

让你感动。

You have to declare that diamond, you must surrender it.

你必须申报那颗钻石，你必须交出它。

It's against the law to actually keep it for yourself.

实际上为自己保留它是违法的。

You can't just find a diamond and say, oh, I found it.

你不能只是找到一颗钻石然后说，哦，我找到了它。

Once you find it, it is not yours.

一旦你找到它，它就不是你的了。

There is a law that just very clearly says it's not yours.

有一条法律非常明确地规定它不属于你。

It belongs to everybody.

它属于每个人。

So you would just get another piece of land someplace else.

所以你只能在其他地方得到另一块土地。

I would be so frustrated.

我会很沮丧。

Unity Dow Well, I'm sorry for your troubles.

Unity Dow 好吧，我很抱歉给您带来麻烦。

There was one more thing, probably the most important one, people told me-- the transfers.

人们告诉我，还有一件事，可能是最重要的一件事——转会。

Remember, each tribe had its territory.

请记住，每个部落都有自己的领土。

So if you were from a certain village in the north, you were most likely Kalanga.

因此，如果您来自北部的某个村庄，那么您很可能是卡兰加。

If you were from the Central District, probably Bangwato.

如果您来自中央区，可能会选择 Bangwato。

So they figured, why not make all civil servants move to a different tribal area from their own for a few years?

所以他们想，为什么不让所有公务员都搬到与自己不同的部落地区几年呢？

That would make sure that there are teachers and doctors everywhere in the country.

这将确保全国各地都有教师和医生。

But also, it would force people to mix.

但同时，它也会迫使人们混合在一起。

It would be an anti-tribalism tool.

这将是一个反部落主义的工具。

When you move people around, you are indirectly forcing them to take that culture in that new home, to adopt the new culture, and even to call that home.

当你把人们搬来搬去时，你就间接地迫使他们在新家中接受这种文化，采用新的文化，甚至称那个家为家。

You're forcing alliances, and you are forcing friendships.

你在强迫结盟，你也在强迫建立友谊。

Can you force friendships?

你能强行建立友谊吗？

Does that kind of thing work?

这样的事情有用吗？

The transfers affected everyone working for the government, by far the largest employer in the country-- engineers, administrators, doctors, nurses, and most of all, teachers.

这些转移影响到为政府工作的每个人，政府是迄今为止该国最大的雇主——工程师、管理人员、医生、护士，最重要的是教师。

When I was in Botswana, I talked to 20 teachers to find out if this works, and what it's like for the people going through it.

当我在博茨瓦纳时，我与 20 名老师交谈，了解这种方法是否有效，以及经历这种情况的人们感觉如何。

I'm going to tell you the story of one of the teachers, a woman named Carol Ramolotsana.

我要告诉你们一位老师的故事，她是一位名叫卡罗尔·拉莫洛萨娜（Carol Ramolotsana）的女士。

In a way, Carol's story is typical of what I found, but she also stood out to me.

在某种程度上，卡罗尔的故事是我发现的典型，但她对我来说也很突出。

I'll tell you why in a minute.

我稍后会告诉你原因。

So the teachers would always ask you, what do you want to be when you grow up?

所以老师们总会问你，你长大后想做什么？

I said, I want to be a teacher like you, ma'am.

我说，我想成为一名像你一样的老师，女士。

Carol told me she became a teacher for the reasons a lot of people do-- she liked the one she had as a kid.

卡罗尔告诉我，她成为一名老师的原因和很多人一样——她喜欢小时候的老师。

This lady was a lady who always, every morning when she gets to school, she will look at us.

这位女士是一位每天早上到学校时都会看着我们的女士。

She wouldn't shout at us.

她不会对我们大喊大叫。

If you didn't comb your hair, she will say, baby, come here.

如果你没有梳头，她会说，宝贝，过来。

She will comb your hair nicely.

她会好好地梳理你的头发。

She would ask us, did you have breakfast?

她会问我们，你们吃早餐了吗？

She was this kind of a lady who always come with foods to make.

她是那种总是带着要做的食物来的女士。

What did she bring?

她带来了什么？

Carol Most of the time, she brought oranges.

卡罗尔 大多数时候，她都带橘子。

And she would just sit there, cut the oranges, and just give to us.

她就坐在那里，切橙子，然后给我们。

And she said, you know, I love you so much.

她说，你知道，我非常爱你。

And we said, we love you, teacher.

我们说，我们爱您，老师。

In 2004, Carol was working in a school in the capital city, Gaborone.

2004年，卡罗尔在首都哈博罗内的一所学校工作。

She was 28, and everything was going great.

她28岁了，一切都很顺利。

She loved teaching.

她热爱教学。

All her friends were in the city.

她所有的朋友都在城里。

At night, they went out to eat in Chinese restaurants.

晚上，他们出去到中餐馆吃饭。

They went dancing.

他们去跳舞了。

They were happy.

他们很高兴。

But then one day, the head of the school where she taught called her in and handed her a letter.

但有一天，她所任教的学校的校长把她叫进来，递给她一封信。

She was being transferred.

她正在被转移。

With immediate effect.

即刻生效。

I still have the letter now-- you are transferred with immediate effect.

我现在还留着那封信——你立即被调走。

The head of the school told her the name of the place she was going, Lentsweletau, "Lion's Hill."

学校校长告诉她她要去的地方的名字是Lentsweletau，即“狮子山”。

Oh, God.

哦，上帝。

I didn't even know the place.

我什至不知道那个地方。

I asked him, where is that place?

我问他，那个地方在哪里？

He told me, it's a village, it's a small village.

他告诉我，这是一个村庄，是一个小村庄。

And I just saw from his eyes and his looks that he was just consoling me.

我只是从他的眼睛和神情中看出他只是在安慰我。

Oh, so he knew the place.

哦，原来他知道这个地方。

Carol He knew the place, and he knew the place wasn't that good.

卡罗尔 他了解这个地方，也知道这个地方不太好。

Carol had known about the transfers of course, but she had always figured maybe she would get lucky.

卡罗尔当然知道转会的事情，但她一直认为也许自己会很幸运。

Well, she didn't.

嗯，她没有。

She had just paid for some accounting classes.

她刚刚支付了一些会计课程的费用。

If she went to this village, she wasn't going to get her money back.

如果她去了这个村子，她的钱就拿不回来了。

She feared that she would lose everything that was important to her-- her friends, her clubs, her restaurants.

她担心她会失去对她来说重要的一切——她的朋友、她的俱乐部、她的餐馆。

And she liked being among people like herself, people she had things in common with.

她喜欢和像她一样的人在一起，和她有共同点。

Did you try?

你尝试过吗？

Carol I tried.

卡罗尔我试过了。

I tried.

我试过。

I spent about a month-- tried moving from one office to another, just to no avail.

我花了大约一个月的时间尝试从一个办公室搬到另一个办公室，但没有成功。

She'd walk into the Ministry of Education with her letter, saying, please, can't you put me somewhere closer?

她会拿着信走进教育部，说，求你了，你不能把我安排得近一点吗？

Or at least delay so I can finish my classes?

或者至少推迟一下以便我可以完成课程？

She wasn't getting anywhere.

她一事无成。

Most people don't.

大多数人都没有。

That woman, Unity Dow, before she became foreign minister, she was the Minister of Education, and she had to deal with people like Carol all the time.

那个女人，尤妮蒂·道，在当外交部长之前，她是教育部长，她一直要和卡罗尔这样的人打交道。

She taught me that once a teacher brought in her elderly mother, pleading, please don't transfer me, I have to take care of her.

她告诉我，有一次老师把她年迈的母亲带进来，恳求不要转我，我必须照顾她。

Unity said that woman could barely walk, and it was clear the woman wouldn't live much longer.

尤尼蒂说，这位女士几乎无法行走，而且很明显，她活不了多久了。

Still, she said, sorry, lots of people your age have an elderly parent, I can't do anything for you.

不过，她说，抱歉，很多像你这个年纪的人都有年迈的父母，我无法为你做任何事。

Carol couldn't get out of it either.

卡罗尔也无法摆脱困境。

She was desperate.

她很绝望。

I was telling my mother, you know, mama, I want to come back home, you know.

我告诉我妈妈，你知道，妈妈，我想回家，你知道。

That is what is happening.

这就是正在发生的事情。

You know, I don't think I can go on, you know, being a teacher.

你知道，我认为我无法继续当一名教师。

But my mother, on the other hand, would say, no, my daughter.

但另一方面，我的母亲会说，不，我的女儿。

Just go.

走吧。

Just go.

走吧。

You will see how it goes.

你会看到事情进展如何。

Just go.

走吧。

Bastian Berbner Carol knew nothing about the place where she was headed.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳·卡罗尔对她要去的地方一无所知。

I really didn't know them.

我真的不认识他们。

You know, the fact that you are speaking different languages.

你知道，事实上你们说的是不同的语言。

And I wasn't even interested-- really, I wasn't even interested in knowing them that much.

我什至不感兴趣——真的，我什至没有兴趣了解他们那么多。

To me, I just felt like they are just people that I don't have to bother knowing them.

对我来说，我只是觉得他们只是我不必费心去了解他们的人。

Carol's tribe was kind of the elite.

卡罗尔的部落属于精英阶层。

The founder of the state, for example, he was from her tribe.

例如，国家的创始人就是她部落的人。

And it was his grandfather who, back in the 1800s, went to London to negotiate with Queen Victoria.

早在 1800 年代，正是他的祖父前往伦敦与维多利亚女王谈判。

The place where she was going, very different story.

她要去的地方，却是截然不同的故事。

She says they used to be enslaved by another tribe.

她说他们曾经被另一个部落奴役。

One day, the ministry sent a truck to take Carol's things to the new place.

有一天，该部派了一辆卡车将卡罗尔的东西运到新地方。

She didn't go with it.

她没有同意。

She stayed for two more weeks.

她又呆了两个星期。

And then, reluctantly, she got in her car, drove out of the city.

然后，她不情愿地上了车，驶出了这座城市。

And when she approached a village--

当她接近一个村庄时——

There was a building, an old building.

那里有一座建筑，一座古老的建筑。

You know, I was like, oh God, what is this?

你知道，我当时想，天哪，这是什么？

On the other side of the road, there was something like-- maybe they wanted to build a filling station, but they didn't go along with the structure, but they just left the things there.

在马路的另一边，有一些东西——也许他们想建一个加油站，但他们不同意这个结构，但他们只是把东西留在那里。

There was the tank that showed that this place was supposed to be a filling station.

那里有一个水箱，表明这里应该是一个加油站。

I've been there.

我去过那里。

It's remote.

这是远程的。

Dusty, makeshift houses, many without running water.

布满灰尘的临时房屋，许多都没有自来水。

The school, just a few houses scattered on the deep red earth.

学校，只有几栋房子散落在深红色的大地上。

Carol's house was on the school grounds.

卡罗尔的房子在学校操场上。

Campus housing for both kids and teachers is pretty standard in Botswana actually.

实际上，在博茨瓦纳，为孩子和老师提供校园住宿是相当标准的。

She got her keys, opened the door, all her stuff was there in boxes.

她拿到钥匙，打开门，所有的东西都在盒子里。

She cried, and slept.

她哭了，就睡了。

For days, she wouldn't leave the house.

一连几天，她都没有离开家。

A few times, someone knocked, probably a fellow teacher or her boss.

有几次，有人敲门，可能是老师同事或她的老板。

She ignored it.

她忽略了它。

She had brought food for weeks-- rice, pasta, 10 pounds of dried chicken, and tons of hard cider.

她带来了好几个星期的食物——米饭、意大利面、10磅干鸡肉和成吨的苹果酒。

Finally, she showed up to work.

终于，她来上班了。

It was really odd.

这真的很奇怪。

It was odd.

这很奇怪。

Like I said, the people in that village-- even the teachers were like them.

就像我说的，那个村子里的人，甚至老师都像他们一样。

So I was wearing high-heeled shoes, I was carrying a handbag.

所以我穿着高跟鞋，背着手提包。

Some were gossiping behind.

还有人在背后议论纷纷。

Some were telling me straight, you know, my sister, this is a village.

有些人直接告诉我，你知道，我的妹妹，这是一个村庄。

Eventually, you would leave your handbag at home, you would leave your high-heeled shoes.

最终，你会把你的手提包留在家里，你会把你的高跟鞋留在家里。

Then I said, for what?

然后我说，为了什么？

This is me.

这就是我。

No one is going to change me.

没有人会改变我。

That's what I said.

我就是这么说的。

And you know, because of their attitude and what they said, I also had an attitude towards them.

你知道，由于他们的态度和他们所说的话，我对他们也有一种态度。

Bastian Berbner It's worth noting how this is basically the opposite of what the program is supposed to do.

Bastian Berbner 值得注意的是，这基本上与程序应该做的相反。

She's forced to go there.

她是被迫去那里的。

She didn't necessarily think anything bad about the people at first, but now she did.

起初她并不一定认为这些人有什么不好的地方，但现在她却这么做了。

She didn't notice what she had in common with them.

她没有注意到自己和他们有什么共同点。

She noticed how they were different.

她注意到他们有什么不同。

Carol found herself in a corner that she hadn't really been in to start with.

卡罗尔发现自己陷入了一个她一开始并没有真正进入过的角落。

And I was angry with the Minister of Education.

我对教育部长很生气。

I was angry with everyone.

我对每个人都很生气。

They have abused me, they have ill-treated me.

他们虐待我，他们虐待我。

So I didn't even want to be a teacher anymore.

所以我什至不想再当老师了。

At times, I would just go to class, I would look at these kids, I would just give them a book to read, and I would go back to my room.

有时，我只是去上课，看看这些孩子，给他们一本书读，然后就回到我的房间。

Wow, so the students would sit there by themselves?

哇，所以学生们自己坐在那里？

The students would sit there by themselves.

学生们会自己坐在那里。

They would just read their books.

他们只会读他们的书。

I don't know whether they would be reading or making noise.

我不知道他们是否会读书或发出噪音。

Did you think to yourself, what happened to the girl who brought oranges to the classroom?

你有没有想过，那个把橘子带到教室的女孩怎么样了？

At that time, that thing didn't even cross my mind.

当时我根本就没有想到这件事。

Most of the teachers I talked to told me stories like this, but many were reluctant to go on the record.

与我交谈过的大多数老师都告诉过我这样的故事，但许多人不愿意记录下来。

Carol, not so much.

卡罗尔，没那么多。

She was like, what the hell, this is what the government does to us, people should know about it.

她说，管他呢，这就是政府对我们做的事，人们应该知道。

After a few weeks in the village, she had finished all the cider she had brought.

在村里待了几个星期后，她已经喝完了带来的所有苹果酒。

So that night, she drove to the local bar and went in.

于是那天晚上，她开车去了当地的一家酒吧，进去了。

I was just looking at these dirty people.

我只是看着这些肮脏的人。

To me, they were very dirty.

对我来说，它们非常脏。

And I wouldn't even look at them and see someone clean there.

我什至不会看他们一眼，也不会看到那里有人干净。

Dirty in what way?

脏到什么程度呢？

Carol Dirty like they were not bathed, and they have a smell.

卡罗尔 很脏，就像没有洗澡一样，而且有股味道。

So most of all, you remembered the smell.

所以最重要的是，你记住了这种气味。

Yeah.

是的。

It was horrible.

太可怕了。

I'm telling you.

我告诉你。

You know, the smell of armpits, and everything dirty, and the shoes?

你知道，腋窝的气味，所有肮脏的东西，还有鞋子？

To me, I was somebody in a different class.

对我来说，我是一个不同阶层的人。

They were not the type of people that I want to chat with, I would sit down with, I would laugh with.

他们不是我想与之聊天、坐下来、一起笑的人。

You know in a bar, when you get into a bar, there would be these guys that say, hey, baby, such things.

你知道在酒吧里，当你进入酒吧时，会有这些人说，嘿，宝贝，这样的话。

And I would just look at them with this harsh face.

我只会用这张严厉的脸看着他们。

Rolling your eyes.

翻白眼。

Carol Yeah, then they would say, uh oh, this one.

卡罗尔：是的，然后他们会说，呃哦，这个。

And they will keep quiet.

他们会保持安静。

And I will get to the lady who's selling, and I will buy, and get outside, and get into my car and sit there and drink.

我会去找卖东西的女士，我会买东西，然后走到外面，钻进我的车里，坐在那里喝酒。

Yes.

是的。

Bastian Berbner The whole point of transferring teachers around the country is to expose them to people who are different from themselves.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳（Bastian Berbner） 将教师调到全国各地的目的就是让他们接触到与自己不同的人。

But whenever possible, Carol just tried to avoid that.

但只要有可能，卡罗尔就会尽量避免这种情况。

Like the teachers, for example, they had a break room where they could eat lunch together and socialize.

例如，像老师一样，他们有一个休息室，可以一起吃午餐和进行社交活动。

I only went there when there was a meeting-- only.

我只在开会的时候才去那儿——只是。

I never sat with the teachers there, never.

我从来没有和老师坐在一起，从来没有。

From the class, I go back to my house.

下课后，我回到自己的家。

I never sat with them.

我从来没有和他们坐在一起。

Lunch break?

午休？

Carol I never sat with them, never.

卡罗尔 我从来没有和他们坐在一起，从来没有。

I would rather sit in my car.

我宁愿坐在我的车里。

Ira Glass After three months, she got a housemate, another teacher from a different part of the country.

三个月后，艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 找到了一位室友，另一位来自全国各地的老师。

And one Saturday, he suggested going out to this nearby town that's just a little bit bigger.

一个星期六，他建议去附近的这个稍微大一点的小镇。

They brought their camping chairs, because on weekends, the bars can get so crowded that you don't find a place to sit.

他们带来了露营椅，因为在周末，酒吧会变得非常拥挤，以至于你找不到地方坐。

So they take the chairs, sit outside the bar, and Carol feels happy because the people there seem more like her kind of people.

于是他们坐到了酒吧外面的椅子上，卡罗尔感到很高兴，因为那里的人看起来更像她这样的人。

[CAROL CHUCKLING] Carol No, we just had some drinks.

[卡罗尔咯咯笑]卡罗尔 不，我们只是喝了一些饮料。

It was a new environment for us.

这对我们来说是一个新环境。

[CHUCKLING] Bastian Berbner Why are you laughing?

[咯咯笑]巴斯蒂安·伯伯纳你为什么笑？

[CHUCKLING] You know, you were just sitting there, chatting.

[咯咯笑]你知道，你只是坐在那里聊天。

And my housemate just went to the toilets.

我的室友刚刚去厕所。

And there was this guy who approached me.

有一个人向我走来。

He said hi.

他说你好。

I said hi.

我说你好。

And he said, my name is Thabo, can I please have your number?

他说，我叫 Thabo，能给我你的电话号码吗？

And then I was like, what do you want to do with my number?

然后我就想，你想用我的号码做什么？

He said, no, I just wanted to chat with you.

他说，没有，我只是想和你聊聊。

I feel like we can chat.

我感觉我们可以聊天。

Sometimes she gives out a fake number.

有时她会给出一个假号码。

But that guy, he got the real one.

但那个家伙，他得到了真正的。

I just felt like talking to him, being nice to him, and chatting with him.

我只是想和他说话，对他友善，和他聊天。

I just felt something from him the moment he came.

他来的那一刻我就感觉到了他的某些东西。

Just, I don't know-- maybe that was the clinch of love.

只是，我不知道——也许这就是爱情的纽带。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Yes.

是的。

He was handsome.

他很帅。

Bastian Berbner What's so handsome about him?

巴斯蒂安·伯伯纳 他有什么好看的？

No, I think beauty lies in the eyes.

不，我认为美丽在于眼睛。

Maybe when you look at him, you will see him ugly.

也许当你看他的时候，你会发现他很丑。

But when I look at him, handsome.

但当我看到他的时候，很帅。

He seemed like the guys she hung out with in the city, not like the people in the village.

他看起来就像她在城里一起出去玩的人，而不像村里的人。

They talked a bit with the guys he was with.

他们和他在一起的人聊了一会儿。

We were talking, just like, yeah.

我们正在谈论，就像，是的。

And they said, oh, you guys, are you from here?

他们说，哦，你们是这里人吗？

We said, no. Then they said, where are you from?

我们说，不。然后他们说，你从哪里来？

I kept quiet.

我保持沉默。

Then my housemate said, we are from Lentsweletau.

然后我的室友说，我们是Lentsweletau人。

And they were like, what?

他们就像，什么？

Thabo, the guy who had asked for her number, said, that's my home village.

那个向她要电话号码的人萨博说，那是我的家乡。

It's where I grew up.

这是我长大的地方。

My family lives there.

我的家人住在那里。

This guy that Carol liked was from the town that she found so repulsive.

卡罗尔喜欢的这个人来自她觉得非常厌恶的小镇。

And I know my housemate was laughing because he knew very well that I hate the place and everybody in that place.

我知道我的室友在笑，因为他很清楚我讨厌这个地方和那个地方的每个人。

I always told him [SCOFFING] I don't like this place.

我总是告诉他[嘲笑]我不喜欢这个地方。

I hate this place.

我讨厌这个地方。

What happened next is exactly what you think happened next.

接下来发生的事情正是你所认为的。

He visited her the next weekend, took her to parties, introduced her to friends, they got together.

下周末他拜访了她，带她参加聚会，将她介绍给朋友，他们聚在一起。

They traveled to South Africa, to the north of Botswana to see elephants.

他们前往南非、博茨瓦纳北部看大象。

When they went out to dinner, he'd order the same thing she ordered.

当他们出去吃饭时，他点的东西和她点的一样。

He lived a few hours away, so they only saw each other on weekends.

他住的地方离他只有几个小时的路程，所以他们只在周末见面。

But they'd talk on the phone.

但他们会通过电话交谈。

You know, he would ask me how I am, am I fine?

你知道，他会问我怎么样，我好吗？

If I wasn't, well, I will tell him, no, today, I have a headache, or what-- just those things.

如果我没有，那么，我会告诉他，不，今天，我头痛，或者什么——只是这些事情。

It is.

这是。

If you want to know how your partner is, that's the love chat.

如果你想知道你的伴侣怎么样，那就是爱情聊天。

Bastian Berbner The transfer program was created to forge a nation.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔布纳（Bastian Berbner） 转会计划的制定是为了打造一个国家。

It's funny to think that this could be the real secret to how it might actually work-- people fall in love.

有趣的是，这可能是它实际运作的真正秘密——人们坠入爱河。

For Carol, after she met Thabo--

对于卡罗尔来说，在她遇见萨博之后——

Everything changed.

一切都变了。

I started loving the place.

我开始喜欢这个地方。

How did that change?

这是怎么改变的？

Carol You know, you have someone in the village, he's your boyfriend.

卡罗尔：你知道，村里有一个人，他是你的男朋友。

He moves around, showing you things in the village.

他四处走动，向你展示村里的东西。

You tend to love the place.

你往往会喜欢这个地方。

What did you discover about the place that before you hadn't seen?

对于这个你以前没见过的地方，你发现了什么？

It's just a village.

这只是一个村庄。

There isn't anything much.

没有什么太多的东西。

What do you love about it?

你喜欢它什么？

Carol Those people, they are loving people.

卡罗尔 那些人，他们都是有爱心的人。

You're smiling.

你在微笑。

Carol Yes.

卡罗尔 是的。

They are loving people.

他们是有爱心的人。

I love them.

我爱他们。

I love them.

我爱他们。

She became friends with the owner of the smelly bar.

她和臭酒吧的老板成了朋友。

She cooked for the soccer team.

她为足球队做饭。

She was invited to be a judge in a beauty contest, which is kind of a big deal in the village.

她被邀请担任选美比赛的评委，这在村里算是一件大事。

She went to weddings and funerals.

她参加了婚礼和葬礼。

There was even a woman who gave her a piece of land.

甚至还有一个女人给了她一块土地。

I have built a house there.

我在那里建了一座房子。

Bastian Berbner No way.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳 不可能。

I'm telling you.

我告诉你。

Bastian Berbner No way.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳 不可能。

Bastian Berbner The former education minister Unity Dow, she says what Carol experienced is actually pretty common, and a big part of the program's success.

前教育部长尤尼蒂·道 (Unity Dow) 巴斯蒂安·伯布纳 (Bastian Berbner) 表示，卡罗尔的经历实际上很常见，也是该计划成功的重要原因。

What happens when you move people around?

当你移动人们时会发生什么？

Maybe 80% will come back, 20% will stay, they get married.

也许80%的人会回来，20%的人会留下来，他们会结婚。

[UNITY CHUCKLING] Unity Dow I don't know if it's a-- I mean--

[UNITY 咯咯笑] Unity Dow 我不知道这是不是——我的意思是——

It's like a government-sponsored dating thing.

这就像政府资助的约会活动。

People go someplace, they fall in love.

人们去某个地方，就会坠入爱河。

First of all, I'm going to say that you joke, but the truth is that it's just the nature of how humans move, and acclimatize, and call those their homes.

首先，我想说你是在开玩笑，但事实是，这只是人类移动、适应环境、并将其称为家园的本质。

Bastian Berbner A few years after she had moved to the village, Carol finally felt at home.

巴斯蒂安·伯伯纳 (Bastian Berbner) 搬到村子几年后，卡罗尔终于感到宾至如归。

She had built that house, her relationship with Thabo was going great.

她建造了那栋房子，她和萨博的关系发展得很好。

Carol was taking oranges to class again.

卡罗尔又带着橙子去上课了。

She did still bring her handbag and her heels to class every day.

她每天仍然带着手提包和高跟鞋来上课。

In fact, one of the women who teased her about it, a science teacher, she started bringing her handbag too.

事实上，其中一位嘲笑她的女性是一名科学老师，她也开始带手提包。

Carol was still a little bit of a snob about the locals.

卡罗尔对当地人还是有点势利。

But overall, she was as happy here as she had been in the city.

但总的来说，她在这里和在城里一样开心。

But there is something I haven't told you about the transfer program.

但有一些关于转会计划的事情我还没有告诉你。

You don't just get transferred once.

您不只被转移一次。

For teachers, it's every five years, sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more.

对于教师来说，每五年一次，有时少一点，有时多一点。

So one day-- Carol The school had called us.

所以有一天——卡罗尔 学校给我们打电话了。

And it was a lady.

那是一位女士。

She told us that one of you has to go.

她告诉我们，你们中的一个人必须离开。

There were five teachers teaching religious education, one too many.

教授宗教教育的老师有五位，一位太多了。

We asked her, what criteria are you going to use?

我们问她，你打算用什么标准？

So she basically said, whoever came first would be the one to go.

所以她基本上是说，谁先来，谁就该走。

And definitely, I knew it was me.

当然，我知道那是我。

So I think for about four or five months, I was waiting for the letter, knowing that any time I would go going.

所以我想大约有四五个月的时间，我一直在等待这封信，因为我知道我随时都会去。

That must be so frustrating.

那一定很令人沮丧。

I mean, now you're there, you know people intimately, and then you know that you have to start from the bottom.

我的意思是，现在你在那里，你熟悉人们，然后你知道你必须从底层开始。

Yes.

是的。

Bastian Berbner And you have to take all of this.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳（Bastian Berbner） 你必须接受这一切。

It's really frustrating.

真是令人沮丧。

Yeah, it is.

是的，确实如此。

It is.

这是。

It is frustrating.

这令人沮丧。

It is frustrating a lot.

这很令人沮丧。

On the other hand, if it weren't for the transfer program, she wouldn't have met Thabo.

另一方面，如果不是转学计划，她也不会遇到萨博。

Are you happy with him?

你和他在一起快乐吗？

Carol Yeah, we are very much happy.

卡罗尔 是的，我们非常高兴。

And we are planning to get married.

我们正计划结婚。

(EXCITEDLY) Oh.

（兴奋地）哦。

Carol Probably some time-- April, May.

卡罗尔 大概某个时间——四月、五月。

This was December last year.

这是去年12月的事。

They had been together for 15 years at that point, survived three transfers.

那时他们已经在一起15年了，经历了三次转会。

Thabo had never moved with her.

塔博从未和她一起搬过家。

As a soldier, he was also told by the government where to work.

作为一名士兵，政府也告诉他去哪里工作。

But then, a couple of months after the interview, I was texting with Carol and she told me she had broke up with Thabo just before the wedding.

但采访几个月后，我给卡罗尔发短信，她告诉我她在婚礼前夕与萨博分手了。

She had found out that he was having an affair.

她发现他有外遇。

Do you blame the transfer program for the end of your relationship with Thabo at all sometimes?

有时你是否会将你与萨博关系的结束归咎于转会计划？

Not really.

并不真地。

A person's mentality it's not to be blamed on anyone or the government.

一个人的心态不能归咎于任何人或政府。

No, I don't.

不，我不。

But if it wasn't for the transfer program, you would have been able to stay with him maybe and--

但如果不是因为转会计划，你也许就能留在他身边而且——

Bastian Berbner All the teachers I talked to found the transfer thing mostly annoying.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳 (Bastian Berbner) 我采访过的所有老师都认为转学的事情非常烦人。

Some of them found it so disruptive that, at some point, they considered quitting.

他们中的一些人发现它是如此具有破坏性，以至于在某些时候他们考虑退出。

Like, there was this one guy, after being transferred, he fell in love, much like Carol.

就像，有一个人，在被转移后，他坠入爱河，就像卡罗尔一样。

He had a kid.

他有一个孩子。

But then he was transferred again, and again, and again.

但后来他一次又一次地被调动。

He worked in seven schools.

他在七所学校工作过。

He had four kids with four women.

他与四个女人育有四个孩子。

And he was single again when I talked to him.

当我和他谈话时，他又恢复单身了。

He blamed the transfers, and himself.

他责怪转会，也责怪他自己。

Recently, the government has made some changes.

最近，政府做出了一些改变。

They now allow married people to move together.

他们现在允许已婚人士一起搬家。

They've tried to reunite couples who have been split up.

他们试图让分手的情侣重聚。

They also allow swaps.

他们还允许交换。

So if you find another teacher across the country who is willing to switch jobs, they'll usually agree.

因此，如果你在全国各地找到另一位愿意换工作的老师，他们通常会同意。

So yes, they try to make things a little easier.

所以是的，他们试图让事情变得更容易一些。

But still, this policy is supposed to be intrusive.

但这项政策仍然被认为是侵入性的。

That's the idea.

就是这个想法。

All the officials I talked to acknowledge the hardships it causes, and all of them stood by it.

我采访过的所有官员都承认它造成的困难，并且所有人都支持它。

Yes, it was sometimes bad for individual people, but it was good for the people as a whole.

是的，有时这对个人来说是坏事，但对整个人民来说却是好事。

In fact, they say it's a big reason why they are a whole.

事实上，他们说这是他们成为一个整体的一个重要原因。

The effect of the transfers has never been systematically analyzed.

转移的影响从未被系统地分析过。

There is no study.

没有研究。

And Botswana had other things going for it that helped them unify.

博茨瓦纳还有其他因素可以帮助他们实现统一。

There was less of a colonial legacy to overcome.

需要克服的殖民遗产较少。

The British had kind of ignored the country, and ruled it from neighboring South Africa.

英国人有点忽视这个国家，并从邻国南非统治它。

And Botswana enacted those laws that prevented any one group from getting rich off the country's diamond wealth.

博茨瓦纳颁布了这些法律，阻止任何一个团体从该国的钻石财富中致富。

But the officials I talked to were convinced the transfers were essential.

但与我交谈过的官员相信，转移是必要的。

They helped make their country, drawn on a map 50 years ago, into a unified nation-- one that has never seen war, one that is the least corrupt country in Africa, and one of Africa's best-working democracies.

他们帮助将50年前在地图上绘制的国家变成一个统一的国家——一个从未经历过战争的国家，一个非洲腐败程度最低的国家，一个非洲运转最好的民主国家之一。

And the economy?

那么经济呢？

From the mid-'60s to the mid-'90s, Botswana had the fastest-growing economy in the world-- not the United States, not emerging China, Botswana.

从六十年代中期到九十年代中期，博茨瓦纳是世界上经济增长最快的国家——不是美国，也不是新兴的中国，博茨瓦纳。

It works miracles.

它创造奇迹。

Bastian Berbner This is the president of Botswana, Mokgweetsi Masisi.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔布纳 这是博茨瓦纳总统莫克维西·马西西。

I had the chance to speak to him a few weeks ago.

几周前我有机会与他交谈。

In the same way as early on, when education system was still in its nascent stages, we had boarding schools.

就像早期一样，当教育系统还处于萌芽阶段时，我们就有寄宿学校。

So you had people from this part of the country going over here and there.

所以有来自这个国家这个地区的人到处走动。

And people marry from everywhere.

人们从世界各地结婚。

And it works for us.

这对我们有用。

I asked if some version of this might work elsewhere, like in the US and other countries that are so divided.

我问这种做法的某些版本是否适用于其他地方，例如美国和其他分裂如此严重的国家。

It could be a fix.

这可能是一个解决办法。

But you know, I don't really want to comment too deeply about the issues of another nation state.

但你知道，我真的不想对另一个民族国家的问题发表太深入的评论。

You'd understand why.

你就会明白为什么。

But I do have views.

但我确实有看法。

Bastian Berbner It's hard to imagine the US shipping teachers from New York City to red states, and vice versa.

巴斯蒂安·伯布纳（Bastian Berbner）很难想象美国的运输老师从纽约市到红州，反之亦然。

If you attempted this with teachers in Germany, where I live, you'd probably have riots on your hands.

如果你在我居住的德国的老师那里尝试这样做，你可能会遇到骚乱。

But we could try something to get different kinds of people talking to each other face to face.

但我们可以尝试一些办法让不同类型的人面对面交谈。

Everybody I spoke with in Botswana told me the transfer program works, and everything I found in my reporting suggests it works.

我在博茨瓦纳采访过的每个人都告诉我，转移计划有效，我在报告中发现的一切都表明它有效。

But I also got a glimpse of its limits.

但我也看到了它的局限性。

One day, I gave a woman a ride, a young French teacher.

有一天，我载了一位女士，她是一位年轻的法语老师。

We sat in the car waiting for the rain to pass, and she talked about her family, a family of teachers, a family shaped by transfers.

我们坐在车里等待雨过去，她谈到了她的家庭，一个教师家庭，一个由转学塑造的家庭。

My father was a teacher, and he was posted in another area.

我父亲是一名教师，他被派到另一个地区。

My mother was a teacher, and she was posted in another area.

我妈妈是一名老师，她被派到另一个地区。

So he got on, did his naughty business, she got upset and left.

于是他继续做他的调皮事，她心烦意乱地离开了。

But then I grew up knowing that the teacher was my father, but my father was someone else, was from another village somewhere in another tribe.

但后来我长大了，知道老师是我的父亲，但我的父亲是别人，来自另一个部落的另一个村庄。

So in essence, my mother raised me as a Motswana, and--

所以从本质上讲，我母亲把我当作莫茨瓦纳人抚养长大，而且——

A Motswana.

莫茨瓦纳。

In other words, a Botswanan.

换句话说，博茨瓦纳人。

Which question?

哪个问题？

French Teacher "Omo gai."

法语老师“Omo gai”。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

French Teacher What's your tribe?

法语老师你的部落是什么？

Or "hai g'gai," where's your home village?

或者“hai g'gai”，你的家乡在哪里？

It's a very common question.

这是一个非常常见的问题。

.

。

Everyone will ask you that.

每个人都会问你这个问题。

Wherever you go, that's the first thing people will ask you.

无论你走到哪里，人们都会问你第一件事。

"Omo gai." French Teacher "Omo gai." It's like [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH].

“奥莫盖。”法语老师“Omo gai”。就像[非英语演讲]。

You get what I mean?

你明白我的意思吗？

So I don't like that.

所以我不喜欢这样。

I'm just a Motswana.

我只是一个莫茨瓦纳人。

It doesn't matter where I come from.

我来自哪里并不重要。

It doesn't matter where my village is-- de Motswana.

我的村庄在哪里并不重要——德莫茨瓦纳。

And it's-- yeah.

这是——是的。

And that's not just an answer to shut the people up.

这不仅仅是让人们闭嘴的答​​案。

It's what you really feel.

这就是你的真实感受。

It's how I feel.

这就是我的感受。

I don't understand why we have to always identify with our tribes.

我不明白为什么我们必须始终认同我们的部落。

Bastian Berbner Do you realize that this is, in a nutshell, the Botswana story?

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳 (Bastian Berbner) 您是否意识到这就是博茨瓦纳的故事？

Really?

真的吗？

No I don't.

不，我不。

Bastian Berbner Don't you think?

巴斯蒂安·伯伯纳 你不这么认为吗？

I guess now you're giving me that aha moment.

我想现在你正在给我一个顿悟的时刻。

Yeah, hey.

是的，嘿。

[SPEAKING FRENCH]

[说法语]

Then she started listing the Botswana tribes.

然后她开始列出博茨瓦纳部落。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH].

[非英语演讲]。

We are distributed all over the country.

我们分布在全国各地。

And we are all one.

我们都是一体的。

Thank you to the transfers, I guess.

我想，谢谢你的转会。

Bastian Berbner So yes, of course it has worked.

巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳（Bastian Berbner）所以是的，它当然有效。

Here's a woman who identifies first and foremost as Botswanan, who hasn't spoken her native language in years.

这位女士首先认为自己是博茨瓦纳人，但她已经很多年没有说过自己的母语了。

But also, it hasn't worked, not all the way.

但同时，它也没有奏效，甚至没有完全奏效。

I mean, they tried the most radical thing that I've found in my years of reporting on this.

我的意思是，他们尝试了我多年来对此进行报道时发现的最激进的做法。

They did it for decades.

他们这样做了几十年。

They moved hundreds of thousands of people around.

他们转移了数十万人。

But the question is still being asked, what's your tribe?

但问题仍然有人问，你的部落是什么？

Ira Glass Bastian Berbner is a reporter for Die Zeit.

艾拉·格拉斯·巴斯蒂安·贝尔纳 (Ira Glass Bastian Berbner) 是《时代周报》的记者。

If you speak German, he has a book about all this called, in German, 180 Degrees-- Stories Against Hate.

如果你说德语，他有一本关于这一切的书，德文名为《180 度——反对仇恨的故事》。

He's looking for a publisher in English.

他正在寻找英文出版商。

Carol, by the way, after splitting up with Thabo, she met somebody new.

顺便说一下，卡罗尔在与萨博分手后，遇到了新的人。

They're planning to get married later this year.

他们计划今年晚些时候结婚。

Coming up, a bar where everybody knows your name.

即将到来，一家人人都知道你名字的酒吧。

And that is exactly the problem.

这正是问题所在。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

This is This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, "Beer Summit," stories about people who disagree, trying to get along, aided by the magical healing power of beer.

今天的节目“啤酒峰会”讲述了不同意见的人们在啤酒神奇治愈力量的帮助下试图和谐相处的故事。

We've arrived at act two of our program-- Act Two, "Loggerheads."

我们已经到了节目的第二幕——第二幕“Loggerheads”。

So we got a tip about this next story from a source I have to say we do not get many story ideas from.

所以我们从一个消息来源得到了关于下一个故事的提示，我不得不说我们没有从中得到很多故事创意。

Ben Calhoun explains.

本·卡尔霍恩解释道。

Yeah, so a couple of years ago, I called this guy in Indiana.

是的，几年前，我给印第安纳州的这个人打了电话。

Hello, Ben?

你好，本？

Hi, Pete here in South Bend.

嗨，皮特，在南本德。

How are you?

你好吗？

Good.

好的。

I apologize for running behind schedule today.

我为今天的进度落后而道歉。

No, I hear you have a whole city to run.

不，我听说你要管理整个城市。

[BOTH CHUCKLING] This was way before Mayor Pete started running for president.

[两人都咯咯笑]那是在皮特市长开始竞选总统之前。

These days, I don't imagine he does a ton of hour-long chats about the direction of the Democratic Party with reporters.

这些天，我不认为他会与记者就民主党的方向进行大量长达一小时的交谈。

Which, that's what we were doing.

这就是我们正在做的事情。

And in the middle of that, he mentioned this thing that happened in South Bend.

中间他提到了发生在南本德的这件事。

I went to an event not long ago at the Clay Democratic Club, which is another sort of-- that's on the north side of town, and it resembles a dive bar.

不久前我参加了克莱民主俱乐部的一个活动，这是另一种形式——位于城镇的北侧，它类似于一个潜水酒吧。

It's a place you can go for a concert and card game.

这是一个您可以去听音乐会和打牌的地方。

And they had a big controversy because about half their board voted for Donald Trump, the Democratic Club.

他们引起了很大的争议，因为大约一半的董事会投票给了民主党俱乐部唐纳德·特朗普。

Mayor Buttigieg was so matter-of-fact, it took me a second to register just how wild what he was saying was.

布蒂吉格市长非常实事求是，我花了一秒钟才意识到他说的话有多么疯狂。

That at one of the oldest, largest, most important Democratic clubs in his hometown, half the leadership had voted for Donald Trump in 2016.

在他家乡最古老、最大、最重要的民主党俱乐部之一，一半的领导层在 2016 年投票给了唐纳德·特朗普。

In other words, it was like, in the tiny world of this one bar, you had what the entire Democratic party's going through.

换句话说，就好像在这个酒吧的小世界里，你经历了整个民主党正在经历的事情。

In some key places like the Midwest, a bunch of Democrats deserted, and the Democrats lost, and the rest are left trying to figure it out.

在中西部等一些关键地区，一群民主党人开小差，民主党人输了，剩下的人则在努力解决问题。

Are they mad at those people?

他们对那些人生气吗？

Sure.

当然。

Can they win those people back?

他们能把那些人赢回来吗？

What the heck is going to happen with those people?

那些人到底会发生什么？

So a little while ago, I went to the Clay Democratic Club to see how this was all working out there.

不久前，我去了克莱民主俱乐部，看看那里的情况如何。

[DOOR OPENING] The Clay Democratic Club, it's sort of like an American Legion hall, crossed with a bingo hall, crossed with a neighborhood bar.

[开门]克莱民主俱乐部，有点像美国军团大厅，与宾果游戏厅交叉，与附近的酒吧交叉。

Pool costs $1.25.

泳池费用为 1.25 美元。

Beers are $2.50.

啤酒 2.50 美元。

Because it's a private club, you can smoke, which is a well-exercised right.

因为是私人俱乐部，所以可以抽烟，这是一项充分行使的权利。

There's a stage in the back for drawings, bands, karaoke night.

后面有一个舞台，可供绘画、乐队、卡拉 OK 之夜使用。

As a kid from Wisconsin, I would say it's pretty much everything a bar should be.

作为一个来自威斯康星州的孩子，我想说这几乎就是酒吧应该有的一切。

Behind the stage, there's the club's logo, a red and blue donkey, with the name Clay Democratic Club over it.

舞台后面有俱乐部的标志，一头红蓝相间的驴子，上面写着克莱民主俱乐部的名字。

There's tables that the club moves around depending on what's happening.

俱乐部根据发生的情况移动桌子。

And at the bar, there are regulars who always seem to be in the same spots regardless of what's happening.

在酒吧里，无论发生什么，都有一些常客似乎总是在同一个地方。

Every time I stopped in, there was Marty on the right end of the bar, Denny in the middle, and then, down at the far left end of the bar, Liz, Liz McCombs.

每次我停下来时，马蒂在酒吧的右端，丹尼在中间，然后，在酒吧的最左端，莉兹，莉兹·麦库姆斯。

The nights of elections, it will be packed down here-- bands and food.

选举之夜，乐队和食物都会被打包在这里。

It's a huge event down here.

这里有一场盛大的活动。

This whole thing started, Liz told me, on the eve of Indiana's last presidential primary, May 2, 2016.

莉兹告诉我，整件事开始于印第安纳州最后一次总统初选前夕，即 2016 年 5 月 2 日。

This was a Monday night.

这是一个星期一的晚上。

Donald Trump was in town.

唐纳德·特朗普就在城里。

He was holding a big rally in South Bend, just a few miles south of the bar.

他正在酒吧以南几英里的南本德举行大型集会。

They had it on all the bar's TVs.

酒吧里所有的电视上都播放着这个节目。

We are just hours away from a critical vote in Indiana.

距离印第安纳州的关键投票只剩下几个小时了。

So everyone's watching the coverage of Trump on the bar's TVs, drinking.

所以每个人都在酒吧的电视上观看特朗普的报道，一边喝酒。

There was a lot of offhand comments and things like that, because we were Democrats.

有很多即兴的评论之类的，因为我们是民主党人。

So we definitely wanted to, for lack of better words, diss the Republicans and Trump.

因此，由于缺乏更好的词语，我们肯定想鄙视共和党人和特朗普。

When the rally was letting out, and they had it on the news-- so, the 11 o'clock news.

当集会即将结束时，他们在新闻中报道了这一消息——所以，就是 11 点新闻。

And somebody said, oh my God, that's Russ.

有人说，天哪，那是拉斯。

And it was.

确实如此。

Right there, on the TV, in the crowd streaming out of the Trump rally, was this guy that everybody in the bar recognized, a guy named Russ Thomas.

就在电视上，在从特朗普集会中涌出的人群中，酒吧里的每个人都认出了这个人，一个名叫拉斯·托马斯的人。

Everyone recognized Russ because he was a longtime member of the Clay Democratic Club.

每个人都认识拉斯，因为他是克莱民主俱乐部的长期成员。

But on top of that, Russ Thomas was the sitting President of the Clay Democratic Club.

但最重要的是，拉斯·托马斯是克莱民主俱乐部的现任主席。

And then everybody-- can I be blunt?

然后大家——我可以直言不讳吗？

They were-- oh, hell no, is what everybody was saying.

他们是——哦，天哪，不，每个人都这么说。

Shock and awe.

震惊和敬畏。

Shock and awe.

震惊和敬畏。

Ben Calhoun I called Russ to hear his version of all this.

本·卡尔霍恩 我给拉斯打了电话，想听听他对这一切的说法。

Russ, I'll say, is gruff but nice.

我想说的是，拉斯很粗鲁，但很友善。

He's a real connoisseur of short answers.

他是一个真正的简短回答行家。

"What is it that convinced you to support President Trump?" "I just like him." "But were there policies or certain issues?" "I just like him." He did have more than that to say about the rally, though-- mainly that he was completely and totally unapologetic.

“是什么说服你支持特朗普总统？” “我就是喜欢他。” “但是有政策或某些问题吗？” “我就是喜欢他。”不过，关于这次集会，他确实有更多的话要说——主要是他完全没有歉意。

If you had known that people at the club were watching TV that night, and they were seeing you on TV--

如果你知道那天晚上俱乐部里的人在看电视，并且他们在电视上看到你——

If I'd have know they were watching?

如果我知道他们在看呢？

I'd have had a banner that said, "Russ is here."

我会有一个横幅，上面写着“拉斯在这里”。

[CHUCKLING] Might have waved at them-- how you doing, guys?

[咯咯笑]可能已经向他们挥手了——你们好吗，伙计们？

Russ says the rally was exciting.

拉斯说这次集会令人兴奋。

He went there with a buddy that night, another Democrat-turned-Trump supporter.

那天晚上，他和一个朋友一起去了那里，他是另一位民主党出身的特朗普支持者。

It wasn't easy.

这并不容易。

Russ has problems with his legs, and by his account, could hardly walk.

拉斯的腿有问题，据他说，他几乎无法行走。

His friend couldn't use one foot because of diabetes.

他的朋友因糖尿病而无法使用一只脚。

But they willed themselves through the walk to South Bend's convention center.

但他们自愿步行前往南本德会议中心。

And then they stood and waited until Donald Trump made his entrance-- to the Rolling Stones' "Start Me Up."

然后他们站起来等待唐纳德·特朗普在滚石乐队的《Start Me Up》中登场。

[MUSIC - THE ROLLING STONES, "START ME UP"]

[音乐 - 滚石乐队，“START ME UP”]

Ben Calhoun So if I'm facing the president, where were you in the room?

本·卡尔霍恩：如果我面对的是总统，你当时在房间里的哪里？

He's right over there.

他就在那里。

Ben Calhoun Russ points, indicating he was in the back, back towards the back right corner of the room.

本·卡尔霍恩·拉斯 (Ben Calhoun Russ) 指着，表示他在后面，背对着房间的右后角。

Yeah, I'm back on this back wall back there, standing.

是的，我又回到了后面的墙上，站着。

But we had such incredible crowds.

但我们有如此令人难以置信的人群。

Look at this room as an example-- right into the corners, people.

以这个房间为例——就在角落里，人们。

Hello, corner.

你好，角落。

So pretty far in the back.

所以在后面很远。

Russ Thomas It was awesome, everybody clapping and yelling.

拉斯·托马斯（Russ Thomas） 太棒了，每个人都鼓掌大喊。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Indiana's primary comes pretty late in the process.

印第安纳州的初选来得相当晚。

But that night, Trump was on the verge of effectively locking up the Republican nomination.

但那天晚上，特朗普即将锁定共和党提名。

And he told Russ and his buddy in the crowd there that their votes the next day could put him over the top.

他告诉拉斯和他在人群中的伙伴，他们第二天的投票可能会让他脱颖而出。

Now Indiana is becoming very important.

现在印第安纳州变得非常重要。

It's usually, by this time, it's over, and you know, it doesn't matter.

通常到这个时候，事情就已经结束了，你知道，这并不重要。

But this time, you folks belong where you belong.

但这一次，你们属于你们所属的地方。

It's called Importantville, right?

它叫重要镇，对吧？

[CROWD CHEERING] Importantville, I love it.

[人群欢呼] 重要镇，我喜欢它。

Of course, that night in Importantville, not everyone was feeling so great about stuff, specifically the patrons of one Democratic bar who'd been watching TV.

当然，那天晚上在重要镇，并不是每个人都对事情感觉那么好，特别是一家民主党酒吧里正在看电视的顾客。

Anger, embarrassment, rage.

愤怒、尴尬、愤怒。

There was people that were raging.

有人怒火中烧。

Again, Liz McCombs, longtime Clay Democratic Club member.

又是利兹·麦库姆斯（Liz McCombs），克莱民主党俱乐部的长期成员。

It was every emotion.

这是每一种情绪。

Because you felt like the rug had been ripped out underneath your feet.

因为你感觉脚下的地毯被撕掉了。

It was like The Wizard of Oz.

这就像《绿野仙踪》。

You're really a Republican running a Democratic Club.

你确实是一个经营民主党俱乐部的共和党人。

Never mind what's behind that curtain.

别介意窗帘后面是什么。

It was exactly like The Wizard of Oz.

这就像《绿野仙踪》一样。

Ben Calhoun It probably seems like Russ could not have been more busted, but he was.

本·卡尔霍恩 拉斯似乎已经彻底崩溃了，但他确实如此。

The head of the St. Joseph County Democratic Party-- that's the county where South Bend is-- the head of the entire Democratic Party at that time was a guy named Jason Critchlow.

圣约瑟夫县民主党（南本德所在的县）的党魁，当时整个民主党的党魁是一个名叫杰森·克里奇洛的人。

Jason was outside the Trump rally that night, just checking out the Trump supporters.

那天晚上，杰森在特朗普集会外面，只是去看看特朗普的支持者。

And then what happened, he looks across the street, he told me.

然后发生了什么事，他看着街对面，他告诉我。

Who do I see?

我看到谁了？

It's Russ fucking Thomas.

这是拉斯他妈的托马斯。

I think he was wearing a hat.

我认为他戴着帽子。

It was one of those things where it wasn't an accident and he was just walking along the sidewalk.

这是其中一件并非意外的事情，他只是沿着人行道行走。

It was obvious this dude was going into the rally and was a Trump supporter, you know?

很明显，这个家伙要参加集会并且是特朗普的支持者，你知道吗？

Jason was like, I'm the county party chair, this is kind of a weird thing for me to get mixed up in, but also kind of too big of a deal to just let go.

杰森说，我是县党主席，这对我来说是一件奇怪的事情，卷入其中，但也是一件太大的事，不能放手。

You know, how much of a fight do I want to pick over something?

你知道吗，我有多想为了某件事而吵架？

And this is their club, it's their rules.

这是他们的俱乐部，这是他们的规则。

Not knowing what to do, Jason started calling and texting a small group of people who he knows go to the club.

杰森不知道该怎么办，他开始给一小群他认识的去俱乐部的人打电话和发短信。

Eventually, he gets to Dan Hardman, former president of the Clay Democratic Club.

最终，他找到了克莱民主俱乐部前主席丹·哈德曼。

He asked me, what's going on?

他问我，怎么了？

I told him-- I said, Jason, I don't know.

我告诉他——我说，杰森，我不知道。

I'm not an officer at the club anymore.

我不再是俱乐部的官员了。

Dan Hardman is like everything about the Clay Democratic Club turned into a person.

丹·哈德曼就像克莱民主俱乐部的一切都变成了一个人。

His life seems to rhyme with everything about the place.

他的生活似乎与这个地方的一切押韵。

Dan was born in South Bend in 1946, same year as the club.

丹于 1946 年出生于南本德，同年加入俱乐部。

In the beginning, the founders didn't have enough money for a building.

一开始，创始人没有足够的钱建造大楼。

They just poured a basement and put a roof on it.

他们只是浇筑了一个地下室并在上面盖上了屋顶。

Some of Dan's early memories are of being a little kid, running around on the low-slung roof of that basement building while the adults were downstairs in the club.

丹的一些早期记忆是小时候，他在那栋地下室的低矮屋顶上跑来跑去，而大人们都在楼下的俱乐部里。

Dan was a member for years, eventually became vice president.

丹担任会员多年，最终成为副总裁。

Dan was president for seven years before Russ came in.

在拉斯上任之前，丹担任了七年总统。

For anything bad to happen down here, it kind of affects me emotionally because I've got such strong feelings for the membership and the club.

如果这里发生任何不好的事情，这都会在情感上影响我，因为我对会员和俱乐部有如此强烈的感情。

My desire to have this club succeed is just humongous.

我对让这个俱乐部取得成功的渴望是巨大的。

I mean, anything goes wrong with this club, I feel it's part of me.

我的意思是，无论这个俱乐部出了什么问题，我都觉得这是我的一部分。

And so do most of my officers.

我的大多数军官也是如此。

They feel that way.

他们有这样的感觉。

And that's the way the officers of the club should feel.

这就是俱乐部官员应该有的感受。

This club is part of them.

这个俱乐部就是他们的一部分。

And that don't mean that your life revolves around it, but close to it.

这并不意味着你的生活围绕着它，而是接近它。

Everyone at the club seems to love Dan, which is easy.

俱乐部里的每个人似乎都喜欢丹，这很容易。

He's not a big guy, but he seems big because he's so outgoing.

他个子不大，但因为他很外向，所以显得很大。

He's a grandfather of 16, retired Teamster, drove a truck for years, Army veteran.

他是 16 岁孩子的祖父、退休卡车司机、开卡车多年、退伍军人。

He's got this completely bald head and a long gray goatee.

他的头完全秃了，留着长长的灰色山羊胡。

When Dan got the call from Jason about Russ, it was the first he'd heard of any of this.

当丹接到杰森关于拉斯的电话时，这是他第一次听说这件事。

Dan was reeling.

丹感到头晕目眩。

What do you feel?

你有什么感觉？

I mean, the president of your club, your Democratic Club, is seen at a rally for a Republican candidate for president.

我的意思是，你们的俱乐部、你们的民主党俱乐部的主席出现在共和党总统候选人的集会上。

What are you doing, dude?

你在做什么，伙计？

I mean, you're putting a black mark on our party, on our club.

我的意思是，你给我们的政党、我们的俱乐部留下了污点。

Ben Calhoun Dan, who'd known Russ for years, ended up being the one to have to call him to see what this was about.

本·卡尔霍恩·丹 (Ben Calhoun Dan) 与拉斯相识多年，最终不得不打电话给他，询问发生了什么事。

I confronted him about it-- why did you do that, Russ?

我质问他——你为什么这么做，拉斯？

Because I believe in the man.

因为我相信这个男人。

I support Trump.

我支持特朗普。

He says, I'm not a Republican but I support Trump.

他说，我不是共和党人，但我支持特朗普。

I said, you're the president of the Democratic Club, and you're doing that to your Democratic Party?

我说，你是民主党俱乐部的主席，你也对你的民主党这么做？

It doesn't look very good, Russ.

看起来不太好，拉斯。

I mean, you could have sat at home and watched it on TV or in any other venue.

我的意思是，你可以坐在家里通过电视或任何其他场所观看它。

And he said, that's my right to do that.

他说，这是我这样做的权利。

And I said, OK, I appreciate that.

我说，好吧，我很感激。

You have your rights.

你有你的权利。

Do whatever you want to do.

做任何你想做的事。

I didn't raise hell or anything like that, because that doesn't get you anywhere.

我没有提出地狱或类似的事情，因为那不会给你带来任何好处。

At the club meeting that soon followed, Dan asked everyone to, quote, "not crucify their friend for his beliefs."

在随后举行的俱乐部会议上，丹要求每个人“不要因为朋友的信仰而将他钉死在十字架上”。

Right away, they wanted to kick him out of the club, right away.

他们立刻想把他踢出俱乐部，马上。

They wanted to tar and feather the poor guy and run him off.

他们想给这个可怜的家伙涂上焦油和羽毛，然后把他赶走。

Well, it wasn't me, but it was other people stating, he's gone, he's done, we're done.

好吧，不是我说的，而是其他人说的，他走了，他完了，我们完了。

Again, Liz McCombs.

又是莉兹·麦库姆斯。

Liz says she was friends with Russ, still is friends with Russ.

莉兹说她是拉斯的朋友，现在仍然是拉斯的朋友。

But she says most people-- at least, the ones that spoke up at this meeting-- drew a hard line about what he did.

但她表示，大多数人——至少是在这次会议上发言的人——对他的所作所为持强硬立场。

This Democratic Club, we are old yellow dogs.

这个民主俱乐部，我们都是老黄狗。

And what that means is I'd rather vote for an old yellow dog than a Republican.

这意味着我宁愿投票给一只老黄狗，也不愿投票给共和党。

So they just labeled him as a turncoat.

所以他们就给他贴上了叛徒的标签。

And that was it, it was impossible.

就是这样，这是不可能的。

It was like there was just no way that he could even function as president anymore.

就好像他根本无法再担任总统一样。

No, you lied to everybody.

不，你对所有人都撒了谎。

No. There's-- no. He just-- he did not understand what his position meant and how much it meant.

不，有——不。他只是——他不明白他的立场意味着什么，意味着什么。

Ben Calhoun Russ resigned as president.

本·卡尔霍恩·拉斯辞去总统职务。

A couple of people told me he wasn't doing that good of a job anyway.

有几个人告诉我，无论如何，他的工作做得并不好。

Russ denies that.

拉斯否认这一点。

The only thing Russ would say is that it was, quote, "personal." No matter how many times I asked, that's what he said.

拉斯唯一会说的是，引用的话，这是“个人的”。不管我问多少次，他都这么说。

What I do know, Russ submitted a very succinct letter of resignation shortly after the incident at the rally.

据我所知，拉斯在集会事件发生后不久提交了一封非常简洁的辞职信。

No reasons, just that he was stepping down as president of the Clay Democratic Club.

没有任何原因，只是他要辞去克莱民主俱乐部主席的职务。

Dan Hardman came back for another term, like FDR.

丹·哈德曼再次连任，就像罗斯福一样。

But what makes all of this complicated is that Russ quit as president, but he kept coming into the club because it's a great bar full of people he knows, and because Russ still considers himself a Democrat-- previously, now, in the future.

但让这一切变得复杂的是，拉斯辞去了总统职务，但他继续加入俱乐部，因为这是一个很棒的酒吧，里面都是他认识的人，而且因为拉斯仍然认为自己是民主党人——以前、现在、将来。

He says he just likes Trump.

他说他只是喜欢特朗普。

He's outspoken, he's doing a good job.

他很直率，他做得很好。

I got a lot of faith in him.

我对他很有信心。

I feel the same way about him that I did with Reagan.

我对他的感觉就像我对里根的感觉一样。

Oh, is that right?

哦，是吗？

So did you-- you voted for Reagan?

那么你——你投票给里根了吗？

Yep.

是的。

Ben Calhoun So do you feel like there's a couple times in your life when-- for the most part you've been a Democrat, but there's been a few times in your life that you said, I'm voting for the Republican in this case.

本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）：那么，你是否觉得在你的一生中，有几次——大部分时间你都是民主党人，但你一生中也有几次说过，在这种情况下我投票给共和党。

I split my ticket every year, every vote.

我每年每张选票都会分割我的票。

I still vote some Democrat.

我仍然投票给一些民主党人。

I voted Obama's first year.

我在奥巴马第一年就投票了。

At this point, it seems like it became clear that the Russ Thomas situation wasn't just going to be about Russ.

至此，似乎很明显，拉斯·托马斯的情况不仅仅与拉斯有关。

When Russ did this, it split everybody apart, because you're either a Democrat or you're not.

当拉斯这样做时，每个人都分裂了，因为你要么是民主党人，要么不是。

Liz McCombs says things changed at the club in the months that followed.

利兹·麦库姆斯说，俱乐部在接下来的几个月里发生了变化。

When Dan Hardman came back as president, he told Russ if he was going to keep coming in, he had to be tactful about his support for Trump.

当丹·哈德曼（Dan Hardman）重新担任总统时，他告诉拉斯（Russ），如果他要继续任职，他必须委婉地表达对特朗普的支持。

But Dan also made sure Russ knew that he was still welcome.

但丹也确保拉斯知道他仍然受欢迎。

And so Russ continued to do some of the things he'd always done, like run karaoke at the club on Friday nights, which is how karaoke night turned into a time for people at the club to choose sides.

所以拉斯继续做一些他一直做的事情，比如周五晚上在俱乐部唱卡拉 OK，这就是卡拉 OK 之夜变成俱乐部里的人们选择立场的时间的原因。

So you had people gunning for Russ-- that's true.

所以有人向拉斯开枪——这是真的。

And then you had Russ supporters, which I get.

然后你就有了拉斯的支持者，我明白了。

It's freedom of speech.

这是言论自由。

You're allowed that, and you're allowed to do whatever you want, and that's part of the Constitution, and I'm thankful every day we have that.

你被允许这样做，你被允许做任何你想做的事，这是宪法的一部分，我很感激我们每天都有这样的权利。

That's fine in everybody's regular life.

这在每个人的正常生活中都很好。

But what did those people do when they would come down?

但那些人下来后做了什么？

How often would it happen that people would stir up trouble about Trump after that?

以后又有多少人会找特朗普的麻烦呢？

It seemed like every weekend, because Russ was doing the karaoke.

看起来就像每个周末，因为拉斯都在唱卡拉 OK。

And it seemed like there was a fight every Friday night.

似乎每个星期五晚上都会有一场战斗。

Every time he played, somebody would just start yelling and being out of control.

每次他演奏时，就会有人开始大喊大叫并失去控制。

Because he was up on stage doing the karaoke.

因为他在舞台上唱卡拉OK。

So he kind of made himself the target.

所以他有点让自己成为目标。

Wait, so would it go both ways?

等等，那么事情会是双向的吗？

Would it be like he would run the karaoke night, and somebody would yell something at him?

会不会像他主持卡拉 OK 之夜，有人对他大喊大叫？

They would heckle him about what had happened.

他们会质问他发生了什么事。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

And then there were people that felt sorry for him.

然后有人为他感到难过。

Because--

因为——

And they would defend him?

他们会为他辩护吗？

Liz Mccombs Yes.

莉兹·麦库姆斯 是的。

Because he's an aging man, and they're uneducated, and they didn't understand what he did.

因为他是个上了年纪的人，而他们没有受过教育，他们不明白他做了什么。

Ben Calhoun Russ estimates that maybe 10% of the club's members like President Trump, and others said the same thing.

本·卡尔霍恩·拉斯 (Ben Calhoun Russ) 估计，该俱乐部的会员中可能有 10% 喜欢特朗普总统，其他人也说过同样的话。

But most of the Trump supporters keep it quiet-- most, though definitely not all.

但大多数特朗普支持者都保持沉默——大多数，但绝对不是全部。

Another contingent increasingly came into the club spoiling for a fight, looking to mix it up.

另一支队伍越来越多地进入俱乐部，渴望打架，希望把事情搞混。

Dan Hardman, and Liz McCombs, and a number of others say the loudest was a guy named Mike Powell.

丹·哈德曼、利兹·麦库姆斯和其他一些人表示，声音最大的是一个名叫迈克·鲍威尔的人。

He would pound his fist on the bar-- Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.

他会用拳头敲击吧台——特朗普，特朗普，特朗普，特朗普，特朗普。

Like Russ, Mike's a lifelong Democrat, member of the club for years, who decided to support Trump.

和拉斯一样，迈克是终身民主党人，也是俱乐部会员多年，他决定支持特朗普。

Dan Hardman told me Mike would come into his office at the club and try to convince Dan to defect like he had.

丹·哈德曼告诉我，迈克会走进他在俱乐部的办公室，试图说服丹像他一样叛逃。

Again, here's Liz.

再说一遍，这是莉兹。

Why would you come to a Democratic Club to be a Trumper?

你为什么要加入民主党俱乐部成为特朗普支持者？

Like, when you say that he would pound his fists on the bar and say, "Trump, Trump, Trump," that is what he would say?

就像，当你说他会用拳头敲击酒吧并说“特朗普，特朗普，特朗普”时，他会这么说吗？

Trump, Trump, Trump-- literally.

特朗普，特朗普，特朗普——字面意思。

And that's kind of how the Trumpers are.

特朗普派就是这样。

That's exactly how Mike Powell behaves.

这正是迈克·鲍威尔的行事方式。

Surprisingly-- and unsurprisingly-- Mike Powell sees this whole situation differently.

令人惊讶且毫不奇怪的是，迈克·鲍威尔对整个情况有不同的看法。

Mike's account-- he has not gone looking for fights about Trump.

迈克的说法——他并没有去寻找有关特朗普的争吵。

In fact, he feels, if anything, it's been the other way around.

事实上，他觉得，如果有什么不同的话，情况恰恰相反。

I mean, everybody knows how I feel.

我的意思是，每个人都知道我的感受。

And if somebody sits down next to me and starts cutting down Trump, I'll say, you're talking to the wrong guy-- wrong guy.

如果有人坐在我旁边并开始贬低特朗普，我会说，你在跟错误的人说话——错误的人。

Talk over there.

在那儿说话。

[CHUCKLING] And sometimes they get mad, and oh well.

[咯咯笑]有时他们会生气，哦，好吧。

There was a blow-up over the situation at a board meeting at the club when they discussed Russ's support for Trump and the impact it was having.

在俱乐部的一次董事会会议上，当他们讨论罗斯对特朗普的支持及其所产生的影响时，情况发生了爆炸。

According to a few accounts I've heard, someone-- a longtime Democrat-- stood up and he said some version of, half the board didn't even vote Democratic.

根据我听到的一些说法，有人——一位长期的民主党人——站起来说，有一半的董事会成员甚至没有投票给民主党。

Club president Dan Hardman shot back saying that wasn't true.

俱乐部主席丹·哈德曼回击说这不是真的。

Though I guess that comment about half the board is what produced the story that spread through Democratic circles, and eventually made its way to Mayor Buttigieg.

不过我猜想，半个董事会的评论就是这个故事在民主党圈子里传播的原因，并最终传到了布蒂吉格市长那里。

At this meeting, Mike Powell told me he got called out as a Trump supporter, to which he yelled back, it's none of your business how I voted.

在这次会议上，迈克·鲍威尔告诉我，他被称为特朗普的支持者，对此他大喊，我怎么投票不关你的事。

Mike told me a staunch Democrat started shouting at Mike's wife, who is the club's financial secretary.

迈克告诉我，一位坚定的民主党人开始对迈克的妻子大喊大叫，她是俱乐部的财务秘书。

He was pointing a finger in her face.

他用一根手指指着她的脸。

Mike told me he went up to the guy after the meeting and told him if he pointed a finger in his wife's face again he'd break it off and shove it up his ass.

迈克告诉我，会议结束后，他走到那个人面前，告诉他，如果他再次用手指指着他妻子的脸，他会把手指折断，塞进他的屁股里。

Dan Hardman says he's done what he could to limit the damage as stories like this have circulated.

丹·哈德曼表示，随着此类故事的流传，他已尽其所能来限制损失。

He wrote in the newsletter telling people not to believe everything they heard, making it clear that it was a Democratic Club for Democrats.

他在时事通讯中写道，告诉人们不要相信他们听到的一切，明确表示这是民主党的民主党俱乐部。

Dan told me, leading up to all this, membership at the club had already been declining.

丹告诉我，在这一切发生之前，俱乐部的会员人数已经在下降。

But all this strife, it made it worse.

但所有这些冲突让情况变得更糟。

We went down from nearly 1,000 members, to right now, we're looking at maybe 300.

我们的会员人数从近 1,000 人减少到现在的大约 300 人。

And that membership is hard to keep together, because we can't get people to come down, because they think that we turned our backs on them.

这种会员资格很难保持在一起，因为我们无法让人们屈服，因为他们认为我们背弃了他们。

He means Democrats didn't think the club was really for Democrats anymore.

他的意思是民主党人认为这个俱乐部不再真正属于民主党人了。

And there are some that I haven't seen in, oh, heck, three years.

还有一些我已经三年没见过了。

That must have been difficult to go through with a club that you'd been running, and that you'd built over the course of years.

对于你多年来一直经营并建立的俱乐部来说，这肯定是很困难的。

Yeah.

是的。

Oh yeah, it was heartbreaking.

哦，是的，真是令人心碎。

It was really heartbreaking.

真是令人心碎。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know why they don't come back.

我不知道他们为什么不回来。

Ben Calhoun Mike and Russ, the more they've come under attack from their Democratic friends, the more they've sought the company of those who agree with them.

本·卡尔霍恩·迈克和拉斯，他们受到民主党朋友的攻击越多，他们就越寻求与他们意见一致的人的陪伴。

Russ told me, these days, he's relying almost entirely on Fox News.

拉斯告诉我，这些天他几乎完全依赖福克斯新闻。

Both guys read a lot of conservative stuff that they get from other Trump supporters on the internet.

两人都在互联网上阅读了很多从其他特朗普支持者那里得到的保守派资料。

Democrats want open borders.

民主党人希望开放边界。

President Obama wanted one world government.

奥巴马总统想要一个世界政府。

Mike said he doesn't want Muslims in our government.

迈克说他不希望穆斯林进入我们的政府。

That scares the tar out of me, he said.

他说，这把我吓得浑身焦油。

I asked both of them what the Democrats might do to win them back, if that was even possible.

我问他们，如果可能的话，民主党可能会采取什么措施来赢回他们的支持。

Russ said, maybe for 2024, but I'm sticking with Trump.

拉斯说，也许到 2024 年，但我坚持特朗普。

Mike told me he likes some of what he heard from Tulsi Gabbard and Amy Klobuchar, but really, it was pretty unlikely.

迈克告诉我，他喜欢从图尔西·加巴德和艾米·克洛布彻那里听到的一些内容，但实际上，这不太可能。

What do you think the Democrats don't understand about somebody like you or somebody like Russ, who identified for a long time as a Democrat, and then they left for Trump?

你认为民主党人对像你这样的人或像拉斯这样的人不理解什么，他们长期以来一直认为自己是民主党人，然后他们就投奔了特朗普？

I don't think they care.

我认为他们不在乎。

That's the deal.

就是这样。

They have an agenda.

他们有一个议程。

And they don't care what we think anymore.

他们不再关心我们的想法了。

I mean, everything is about illegals, and the poor, and everything else.

我的意思是，一切都与非法移民、穷人以及其他一切有关。

They don't care about us anymore.

他们不再关心我们了。

They just don't.

他们只是不这样做。

It's just like we're irrelevant, you know?

就好像我们无关紧要，你知道吗？

You don't give a shit about us.

你根本不关心我们。

So if there was a Democratic politician, though, and you felt like that is somebody who cares about a guy like me--

所以，如果有一位民主党政客，你会觉得他关心像我这样的人——

That's a big deal.

这是一件大事。

Ben Calhoun That's the kind of thing that could get you back.

本·卡尔霍恩：这就是能让你回来的事情。

That's huge, yes.

那是巨大的，是的。

You know, it ain't just what Trump does, but it's about feeling like you matter.

你知道，这不仅仅是特朗普所做的事情，而是让你感觉自己很重要。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

If you think somebody don't give a crap about you, what does it matter?

如果你认为有人不在乎你，那又有什么关系呢？

You're going to go towards somebody that cares, somebody that thinks you matter.

你会走向一个关心你、认为你重要的人。

That's the bottom line.

这是底线。

What about us?

那我们呢？

Ben Calhoun There's a certain schizophrenia to Russ and Mike's politics these days.

本·卡尔霍恩 拉斯和迈克的政治近来有些精神分裂。

Even though they support President Trump, their biggest concerns still do seem to be traditionally Democratic causes.

尽管他们支持特朗普总统，但他们最大的担忧似乎仍然是传统的民主党事业。

Russ says he's concerned about health care.

拉斯说他担心医疗保健问题。

And if somebody could present a plan to get everybody covered, he'd be for that.

如果有人能提出一项计划来覆盖所有人，他就会支持。

Mike also worries about health care, and the cost of prescription drugs, and about the quality of public education in America.

迈克还担心医疗保健、处方药的成本以及美国公共教育的质量。

They both told me the story of the Democratic Party they were loyal to, that they still love, was the story of a party that was for the little guy and against the big guy.

他们都向我讲述了他们所忠诚、仍然热爱的民主党的故事，这是一个支持小人物、反对大人物的政党的故事。

I told them, I think many of the Democrats running now still talk about the party that way.

我告诉他们，我认为现在参选的许多民主党人仍然以这种方式谈论该党。

And they're making proposals to do things that both men say they want.

他们正在提出建议，去做两人都说想做的事情。

But whatever the story the Democrats are telling, Russ and Mike do not see themselves in it.

但无论民主党讲述什么故事，拉斯和迈克都不认为自己参与其中。

The one part of the Democrats' message that seems to be getting through to Russ and Mike is just how badly they all want to get rid of Trump, which just makes them want to defend him.

民主党传达的信息似乎传达给拉斯和迈克的是，他们都非常想摆脱特朗普，这只会让他们想要为他辩护。

One Democrat who's had to come up with a strategy for how to deal with the Russes and Mikes of the world is club President Dan Hardman.

俱乐部主席丹·哈德曼（Dan Hardman）是一位民主党人，他必须制定一项应对世界上俄罗斯人和迈克人的策略。

And his strategy could pretty much be boiled down to, let's just all try to chill out some, go easy on each other, maybe have a beer.

他的策略几乎可以归结为，让我们都试着放松一下，彼此宽容一点，也许喝杯啤酒。

Russ isn't so interested in hearing from any Democratic politicians right now.

拉斯现在对任何民主党政客的意见都不感兴趣。

But he also made a point of telling me about this thing that Dan did for him after all this went down.

但他也特意告诉我丹在这一切发生后为他做的这件事。

Russ lost his wife, Carol, earlier this year.

拉斯今年早些时候失去了妻子卡罗尔。

They'd been together since high school.

他们从高中就在一起了。

After she died, Russ got really depressed.

她去世后，拉斯变得非常沮丧。

In the middle of that, Dan organized a dinner for him, and he held it at the Democratic Club.

在此期间，丹为他组织了一场晚宴，他在民主俱乐部举办了晚宴。

Russ says that-- that meant so much to him.

拉斯说——这对他来说意义重大。

And so there is one Democrat I know for a fact Russ respects, that he listens to, and that he likes.

因此，我认识一位民主党人，因为罗斯尊重这一事实，他倾听并且喜欢他的意见。

It's a guy who keeps letting him know he's welcome to sit with him at the bar, regardless of who's in the White House.

这个人总是让他知道，无论谁在白宫，都欢迎他和他一起坐在酒吧里。

Ira Glass Ben Calhoun is one of the producers of our show.

艾拉·格拉斯·本·卡尔霍恩是我们节目的制片人之一。

[MUSIC - GEORGE STRAIT, "COLD BEER CONVERSATION"]

[音乐 - 乔治海峡，“冷啤酒对话”]

(SINGING) Cold beer conversations, just a couple old boys, a little time well wasted.

（唱歌）冰镇啤酒的谈话，只有几个老男孩，浪费了一点时间。

Trying to figure out life, trying to figure out girls, trying to find our place in this crazy old world.

试图了解生活，试图了解女孩，试图在这个疯狂的旧世界中找到我们的位置。

Well, the program was produced today by Zoe Chace with help from Elna Baker.

嗯，这个节目今天是由 Zoe Chace 在 Elna Baker 的帮助下制作的。

The people who put together today's show includes Emanuele Berry, Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Damian Grave, Jessica Lussenhop, Miki Meek, Lina Misitzis, Stowe Nelson, Katharine Rae Mondo, Ben Phelan, Nadia Reiman, Tracy Roland, Robyn Semien, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.

今天节目的制作人包括 Emanuele Berry、Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Damian Grave、Jessica Lussenhop、Miki Meek、Lina Misitzis、Stowe Nelson、Katharine Rae Mondo、Ben Phelan、Nadia Reiman、Tracy Roland、Robyn Semien、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike。

Managing editor is Diane Wheeler, executive editor is David Kestenbaum.

执行主编是黛安·惠勒，执行主编是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Special thanks today to Sarah Dryden-Peterson, Moses Ochonu, the Pew Research Center, NDR in Hamburg, Betty Olivier, and Denny Grounds.

今天特别感谢 Sarah Dryden-Peterson、Moses Ochonu、皮尤研究中心、汉堡 NDR、Betty Olivier 和 Denny Grounds。

Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 680 episodes.

我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中播放我们的 680 多集档案。

And there's videos and tons of other stuff there too.

那里还有视频和大量其他内容。

Or get our app, which has all that stuff and also lets you download as many episodes as you want.

或者获取我们的应用程序，它拥有所有这些内容，还可以让您下载任意数量的剧集。

Again, ThisAmericanLife.org.

再次，ThisAmericanLife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he just signed up with the Hair Club for Men.

你知道，他刚刚加入了男士美发俱乐部。

He seems to be taking it very seriously.

他似乎很认真地对待这件事。

But to be honest, I am not sure he understands it.

但说实话，我不确定他是否理解。

My desire to have this club succeed is just humongous.

我对让这个俱乐部取得成功的渴望是巨大的。

I mean, anything goes wrong with this club, I feel it's a part of me.

我的意思是，无论这个俱乐部出了什么问题，我都觉得这是我的一部分。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of this American life.

下周我们将带来更多有关美国生活的故事。

[MUSIC - GEORGE STRAIT, "COLD BEER CONVERSATION"]

[音乐 - 乔治海峡，“冷啤酒对话”]

(SINGING) A little truth, a little frustration.

（唱）一点真相，一点沮丧。

It's just us, man.

这只是我们，伙计。

Go on and say it.

继续说吧。

Cold beer conversation.

冰镇啤酒对话。

This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。