680: The Weight Of Words - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #680 | July 26, 2019 680: The Weight Of Words Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 680 集 | 2019 年 7 月 26 日 680：文字的重量 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Last weekend, I gave a talk at Chautauqua in upstate New York.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 上周末，我在纽约州北部的肖托夸做了一次演讲。
Which, if you don't know what that is, starting in the 1870s, it was this high-minded lecture circuit-- like Ted Talks, but before the internet, or public radio before the invention of radio-- with a big religious component.
如果你不知道那是什么，从 1870 年代开始，它就是这种高尚的巡回演讲——就像泰德演讲，但在互联网出现之前，或者在广播发明之前的公共广播——带有很大的宗教成分。
Which is how I fell into this long conversation about the literal word of the Bible.
这就是我如何陷入这场关于圣经字面意义的长篇对话中。
It happened the staffer who drove me to the airport was a retired Methodist preacher, an associate pastor at one of the churches in Chautauqua, named John Jackson.
碰巧开车送我去机场的工作人员是一位退休的卫理公会牧师，他是肖托夸一座教堂的副牧师，名叫约翰·杰克逊。
And we had this hour and a half long drive and somehow we got onto how he doesn't believe that every word of the Bible is literally true, which, if you're a Methodist, that's no big deal.
我们开了一个半小时的车程，不知何故，我们了解到他并不相信圣经中的每一个字都是真实的，如果你是卫理公会教徒，那没什么大不了的。
And John said that as he gets older, the literal words of the Bible seem less important to him than the big picture.
约翰说，随着年龄的增长，对他来说，圣经的字面意义似乎不如大局重要。
Love your neighbor as yourself, and love God above all.
爱人如己，爱神胜过爱神。
I told John, like, I totally get the love your neighbor as yourself part of that.
我告诉约翰，我完全理解你的邻居的爱，就像你自己一样。
Like, I can see how that can reshape just everything about how you treat others, and really, everything you do in your life in the world.
就像，我可以看到这如何重塑你对待他人的一切，以及你在世界上生活中所做的一切。
But I told him I've never really understood why is it important to love God above all.
但我告诉他我从来没有真正理解为什么爱上帝比一切都重要。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
If you do what God wants, and you try to be good, you try to treat others right, what difference does it make if you love God?
如果你按照神所吩咐的去做，并且努力行善，努力善待他人，那么如果你爱神，那又有什么区别呢？
What does God care?
神在乎什么？
And I got to ask John about kind of a variation on this question that I've wondered about for a couple years, ever since the last time I was in synagogue.
我向约翰询问了这个问题的一些变化，自从我上次去犹太教堂以来，我多年来一直想知道这个问题。
I don't know.
我不知道。
This was two or three years ago.
这是两三年前的事了。
I hadn't been to synagogue in forever.
我已经很久没去过犹太教堂了。
And it was the anniversary of my mom's death.
那是我妈妈去世的周年纪念日。
And we're Jews, so you're supposed to go say Kaddish, this old prayer that's one of the central prayers in Judaism at the anniversary of somebody's death.
我们是犹太人，所以你应该念“卡迪什”，这是一个古老的祈祷词，是犹太教在某人忌日时的核心祈祷词之一。
And so my dad, and my stepmom, and I were at one of the daily services that observant Jews go to every day in Baltimore where I grew up.
因此，我的父亲、继母和我参加了我长大的巴尔的摩，虔诚的犹太人每天都会参加的日常仪式之一。
And I always liked going to synagogue as a kid.
我小时候一直喜欢去犹太教堂。
We went a lot.
我们去了很多地方。
And so it was nice going back.
所以很高兴回去。
I know all the Hebrew prayers by heart.
我能背诵所有希伯来语祈祷文。
And [LAUGHS] I don't know if this is good or bad, but not having sat in a synagogue in over a decade, it really hit me how every day is a rerun.
[笑]我不知道这是好还是坏，但十多年来我没有坐在犹太教堂里，这真的让我震惊，每天都是重播。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
They never do a new episode.
他们从不制作新剧集。
Every day, the same words, same songs in the same order, stretching back hundreds of years.
每天，同样的话语，同样的歌曲，同样的顺序，可以追溯到数百年前。
They read a new part of the Bible, part of the Torah some days.
他们有时会读《圣经》的新部分，《托拉》的一部分。
So there's that, but all the rest basically exactly the same every day.
就是这样，但其余的基本上每天都一模一样。
And everybody is singing and chanting.
每个人都在唱歌和喊口号。
And I started looking at the prayer book on the side of the page with the English translation of the prayers, which I hadn't done in years.
我开始看页边的祈祷书，上面有祈祷的英文翻译，我已经很多年没有这样做了。
And I really was struck at how many of them-- the Amidah, the Ashrei-- are about praising God at length.
我真的很惊讶他们中有多少人——阿米达人、阿什雷人——最终都在赞美上帝。
That's what the words mean.
这就是这些话的意思。
Even the Kaddish, which you say over and over during services.
甚至是你在礼拜期间一遍又一遍地说的卡迪什语。
It goes on and on.
它一直持续着。
And the words basically are, "May His great name be exalted and sanctified.
这些话基本上是：“愿他伟大的名字被高举和尊崇。
Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One." That is what they have you say when your mom dies.
圣者之名应受祝福和赞美、荣耀和崇高、颂扬和尊崇、崇拜和赞美。”这就是你妈妈去世时他们要你说的话。
Comforting, huh?
令人安慰吧？
It's basically God is great over and over, building up to this beautiful line, really beautiful, that's basically God is so great.
基本上，上帝一遍又一遍地伟大，构建出这条美丽的线，真的很美丽，这基本上就是上帝是如此伟大。
It's beyond the power of any prayer, or word, or song, or praise.
它超出了任何祈祷、言语、歌曲或赞美的力量。
It's beyond the power of language to capture it.
它超出了语言的力量来捕捉它。
And it really hit me, sitting there-- what does God get out of that?
坐在那里的我真的很震惊——上帝从中得到了什么？
Why does he want us sitting down and telling him how great he is for 45 minutes a day?
为什么他要我们每天花 45 分钟坐下来告诉他他有多棒？
Is he that needy?
他有那么需要帮助吗？
If some parent demanded that of their kids-- OK, I want you to praise me for 45 minutes a day, every single day of your life-- we would know they were nuts.
如果一些家长要求他们的孩子这样做——好吧，我希望你每天表扬我 45 分钟，每一天——我们就会知道他们疯了。
And it's like what I was saying to John-- what does God care if we love him?
这就像我对约翰说的——如果我们爱他，上帝又在乎什么？
And John had such a lovely answer.
约翰的回答非常可爱。
He said, first off, he thinks lots of people make the mistake of picturing God as being like us, like humans.
他说，首先，他认为很多人都错误地认为上帝就像我们一样，就像人类一样。
Like he's somebody who we're calling on the phone or something when we're praying.
就像我们在打电话或祈祷时打电话给他的人一样。
But the way he sees it, he understands God to be all the values and principles that he sees in scripture-- the obligation to love each other, to be honest and decent in our dealings with each other, all of those things.
但在他看来，他理解上帝就是他在圣经中看到的所有价值观和原则——彼此相爱的义务，在彼此交往中诚实和正派，所有这些事情。
And when he's praising God, he said that's what he's praising.
当他赞美上帝时，他说这就是他所赞美的。
He's basically re-pledging himself to those principles, which he loves.
他基本上是在重新承诺遵守他所热爱的这些原则。
In other words, the literal words of the Bible, the literal words of the prayers aren't as important as that pledge-- a pledge to act a certain way in the world.
换句话说，圣经的字面意思、祷告的字面意思并不像承诺那么重要——承诺在世界上以某种方式行事。
And reading and calling around in the days since we had that conversation, I've learned that other clergy-- Christian, Jewish, Muslim-- some of them say the same things, especially that God doesn't need our prayers.
自从我们进行那次谈话以来，通过阅读和打电话，我了解到其他神职人员——基督徒、犹太教、穆斯林——他们中的一些人也说了同样的话，尤其是上帝不需要我们的祈祷。
The prayers are for us.
祈祷是为了我们。
One of them told me the Kaddish is supposed to comfort me after my mom's death by pointing me to this idea of God's presence in the world, the goodness in the world-- which, if I believed in God, I guess could be a comfort.
其中一个人告诉我，卡迪什应该在我母亲去世后安慰我，让我看到上帝存在于世界上，世界上有善的想法——如果我相信上帝，我想这可能是一种安慰。
But I don't believe.
但我不相信。
But weirdly, even without that, without believing any of the words, I do find it's a comfort to say the prayer.
但奇怪的是，即使没有这些，在不相信任何话语的情况下，我确实发现祈祷是一种安慰。
It's just-- it's familiar.
这只是——很熟悉。
It's familiar as the nursery rhymes my mom sang to me as a kid, as the Shema, the prayer that she had me and my sister say every night before we went to sleep.
它就像我小时候妈妈给我唱的童谣一样熟悉，就像她让我和我姐姐每天晚上睡觉前说的“Shema”祈祷一样。
It's comforting.
这很令人欣慰。
Despite the fact that it's in another language and part of a doctrine I don't believe anymore, just the fact of it handed to me by my parents and to them by their parents-- Frida, and Lou, and Melvin, and Molly-- and their parents before them-- David, and Elizabeth, and Isidore, and people whose names I don't even know-- and before them, their parents for hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of years and standing in synagogue that day, standing and saying these words in unison with other mourners, it was comforting.
尽管事实上它是用另一种语言写成的，是我不再相信的教义的一部分，但事实是它是由我的父母和他们的父母——弗里达、卢、梅尔文和莫莉——以及他们之前的父母——大卫、伊丽莎白、伊西多尔，以及那些我什至不知道名字的人——以及在他们面前，他们的父母数百年、数百年、那天站在犹太教堂里，站着说这些话的事实。与其他哀悼者一致，这令人感到安慰。
Today in our show, the sometimes very old words that we turn to for comfort in moments of adversity and at other times, they can be very random.
今天在我们的节目中，有时我们会在逆境时使用非常古老的词语来寻求安慰，而在其他时候，它们可能非常随意。
The novel, Little Women, A Tribe Called Quest and other old school hip hop-- we have stories about each of those.
小说《小妇人》、《探索部落》和其他老派嘻哈音乐——我们都有关于这些的故事。
WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Go To The Mattresses Ira Glass Act One, Go to the Mattresses.
第一幕：去找床垫 Ira Glass 第一幕，去找床垫。
Shamyla always loved books.
沙米拉一直喜欢读书。
Back in 1989, like lots of other 11-year-olds, she also loved Punky Brewster and Paula Abdul.
早在 1989 年，她就和许多其他 11 岁孩子一样喜欢 Punky Brewster 和 Paula Abdul。
But her main thing was reading.
但她最主要的事情是读书。
The Baby-Sitters Club books, Little House on the Prairie-- it was all about words and books.
保姆俱乐部的书籍、草原上的小屋——都是关于文字和书籍的。
And then something happened, which totally changed what she read, and how.
然后发生了一些事情，彻底改变了她阅读的内容和方式。
Elna Baker talked to her.
埃尔娜·贝克与她交谈。
OK, so you meet somebody at a party, and they ask you, what's your favorite book?
好吧，你在聚会上遇到某人，他们问你，你最喜欢的书是什么？
What's your answer?
你的答案是什么？
My answer is Little Women is my all time favorite book.
我的答案是《小妇人》是我一直以来最喜欢的书。
And then if they were to ask you, why, what would you say?
然后如果他们问你为什么，你会说什么？
Well, I probably would have a very long conversation with someone about that.
好吧，我可能会和某人就此进行一次很长时间的交谈。
But it goes back to the '90s when I was living in Pakistan.
但这要追溯到 90 年代，当时我住在巴基斯坦。
And this was the only book that I had in my possession for a couple of years.
这是我几年来唯一拥有的一本书。
A couple of years when she was basically held in captivity in Pakistan.
有几年她基本上被关押在巴基斯坦。
I'll tell you how she found herself holed up with only one book in a minute.
我会告诉你她是如何在一分钟内发现自己只看一本书的。
But first, here's how she ended up in captivity.
但首先，这就是她最终被囚禁的原因。
She was raised in suburban Maryland.
她在马里兰州郊区长大。
Her father was an economist, her mom a teacher.
她的父亲是一名经济学家，母亲是一名教师。
She went to an all girls' prep school.
她去了一所女子预科学校。
At 11, she learned her parents weren't her biological parents.
11岁时，她得知她的父母不是她的亲生父母。
Her mom, the oldest daughter in her family, couldn't have kids and really wanted to.
她的妈妈是家里的长女，她不能生孩子，但又很想生孩子。
And so Shamyla's family came up with a solution, one that's not unusual in Pakistan.
因此，沙米拉的家人想出了一个解决方案，这在巴基斯坦并不罕见。
Since her mom was the oldest, it was her younger sister's obligation to give her a child.
由于妈妈是老大，妹妹有义务给她生一个孩子。
And because of this family pressure and a sense of duty, the younger sister did it.
而迫于这种家庭压力和责任感，妹妹就这么做了。
But then it got complicated.
但后来事情变得复杂了。
Well, my adoptive parents had kids.
嗯，我的养父母有孩子。
They had a son.
他们有一个儿子。
And then they had another son, and that really made my biological family confused and angry.
然后他们又生了一个儿子，这确实让我的亲生家庭感到困惑和愤怒。
And they were like, we gave you our child.
他们就像，我们把我们的孩子给了你。
And now you have your own children.
现在你有了自己的孩子。
Give us our daughter back.
把我们的女儿还给我们。
And my mom said, I'm not going to give her back.
我妈妈说，我不会把她还给我。
She's not a ball.
她不是一个球。
I can't toss her back.
我不能把她扔回去。
For years, they fought over this.
多年来，他们为此争论不休。
When Shamyla was 12 on a visit home to Pakistan, her birth parents asked if they could take her on a trip.
当沙米拉 12 岁回巴基斯坦时，她的亲生父母询问是否可以带她去旅行。
Her mom agreed as a gesture of goodwill.
她妈妈同意了，以示善意。
It'd just be a week long, and she'd get to know her cousins, who were actually her brothers.
只需一周的时间，她就会认识她的表兄弟姐妹，他们实际上是她的兄弟。
And at first, it was really fun.
起初，这真的很有趣。
Until I got really sick at someone's house, and it turned out I had malaria.
直到我在某人家里病得很厉害，结果发现我得了疟疾。
And what I didn't realize at the time was that they had taken me there on purpose because it was way out in the country where no one could find me.
当时我没有意识到他们是故意带我去那里的，因为那是在一个很偏僻的国家，没人能找到我。
Two weeks go by, then three.
两周过去了，然后是三周。
She's all better, asking when she can go back.
她已经好多了，问她什么时候可以回去。
And they kept making excuses.
而且他们还不断地找借口。
Um, you just need to wait.
嗯，你只需要等待。
We have some other places to go.
我们还有一些其他地方要去。
And I remember at some point, my biological father taking me aside very kindly and saying, we're your real family.
我记得在某个时候，我的亲生父亲非常友善地把我拉到一边说，我们是你真正的家人。
They never loved you.
他们从来没有爱过你。
We love you.
我们爱你。
They loved you like the way people love slippers, like an old used pair of slippers.
他们爱你就像人们爱拖鞋一样，就像爱一双旧拖鞋一样。
But they love their boys because that's their blood.
但他们爱他们的孩子，因为那是他们的血统。
And we're your blood, and that's how we love you.
我们是你的血脉，这就是我们爱你的方式。
So you're staying with us now.
所以你现在和我们住在一起。
They don't let her leave, and she's really confused.
他们不让她离开，她真的很困惑。
Of course my US parents love me.
当然，我的美国父母爱我。
They must love me.
他们一定爱我。
But then if they loved me, why aren't they coming to get me?
但如果他们爱我，为什么不来抓我呢？
Unbeknownst to her, her US parents are trying to find out where she is.
她不知道的是，她的美国父母正在试图找出她在哪里。
But no one will tell them.
但没有人会告诉他们。
To make matters worse, her US parents are not legally Shamyla's parents.
更糟糕的是，她的美国父母在法律上并不是沙米拉的父母。
The adoption was never formal.
收养从来都不是正式的。
She was just handed over.
她刚刚被移交。
So they have no legal claim to their daughter.
因此他们对女儿没有合法的权利。
And there's nothing Shamyla could do.
沙米拉也无能为力。
She was 12.
她12岁。
Even if I fantasized about running away to another city and seeing other relatives, I was like, how will I do it?
即使我幻想着逃到另一个城市去见见其他亲戚，我也会想，我该怎么办呢？
What will I do?
我该怎么办？
Where will I get the money?
我从哪里得到钱？
How will I get on a train?
我怎样才能上火车？
How will I get on a plane?
我该如何登机？
What will I do?
我该怎么办？
You were trapped.
你被困住了。
Shamyla I was trapped, yeah.
Shamyla 我被困住了，是的。
She says her birth parents told her when she was growing up, whenever they saw her, it was upsetting to them.
她说，她的亲生父母告诉她，在她成长的过程中，每当他们看到她时，都会感到不安。
They thought, she's too Americanized.
他们认为，她太美国化了。
They were incredibly traditional, even for Pakistan, which is already very patriarchal.
即使对于已经非常重男轻女的巴基斯坦来说，他们也非常传统。
Women are expected to be subordinate.
女性被认为是从属的。
And if their purity is questioned, like if they're even seen speaking to a man in a public place, their family's reputation could be ruined.
如果他们的纯洁性受到质疑，比如如果有人看到他们在公共场所与男人交谈，他们家族的声誉可能会被毁。
And the whole family could be ostracized from the community for it.
整个家庭可能会因此而被社区排斥。
This is especially the case in Peshawar, where her birth parents lived.
在她的亲生父母居住的白沙瓦尤其如此。
And Shamyla, a suburban Maryland tween, didn't understand that this was the world she lived in now.
沙米拉是马里兰州郊区的一名青少年，她不明白这就是她现在生活的世界。
She says everything about the way she acted was wrong in their eyes.
她说她的行为方式在他们眼里都是错误的。
They didn't approve of the music she listened to or the books she read.
他们不喜欢她听的音乐或读的书。
They thought they were teaching her to be far too independent for a girl.
他们认为他们正在教导她对于一个女孩来说过于独立。
At this rate, she'd become promiscuous any day now.
照这样下去，她迟早会变得放荡。
And since they didn't trust her not to be, they kept her under house arrest, confining her to a corner of the house that consisted of a bedroom and a bathroom.
由于他们不相信她不会这样，所以他们将她软禁起来，将她限制在由一间卧室和一间浴室组成的房子的一个角落里。
And they confiscated her cassettes and her books.
他们没收了她的录音带和书籍。
Her birth father would lecture to her for hours.
她的亲生父亲会给她讲课几个小时。
His favorite three topics were America is a bad place, especially for girls.
他最喜欢的三个话题是美国是一个糟糕的地方，尤其是对女孩来说。
American women are loose character and horrible.
美国女人性格散漫，可怕。
The second topic was your adopted family never really loved you.
第二个话题是你的收养家庭从来没有真正爱过你。
Never.
绝不。
And the third topic was so here's what you're going to do when you get married.
第三个主题是，这就是你结婚后要做的事情。
These are your wifely duties, including your sexual obligations to your husband.
这些是你作为妻子的义务，包括你对丈夫的性义务。
He'd also lecture her about the rules she needed to follow.
他还会向她讲授她需要遵守的规则。
Some were the normal rules of an observant Muslim home.
有些是虔诚的穆斯林家庭的正常规则。
She couldn't go out without being covered, make eye contact, wear her hair down.
如果不被遮盖、眼神交流、把头发披下来，她就无法出门。
Others were cultural.
其他的是文化方面的。
She couldn't hug people, wear glasses when guests came over, speak English or Urdu, which would be seen as a sign of modernity.
她不能拥抱别人，不能在客人过来时戴眼镜，不能说英语或乌尔都语，这些都会被视为现代的标志。
Only Pashto, the language of the region, was allowed.
只允许使用该地区的语言普什图语。
She couldn't serve herself food before her brothers.
她不能在哥哥们面前给自己上菜。
She was barely allowed to eat.
她几乎不被允许吃饭。
They thought she needed to be thin to get married, so they locked the fridge.
他们认为她需要瘦才能结婚，所以他们锁上了冰箱。
She says if she messed up, she was beaten with a kitchen squeegee, which cut her face open, or a walking stick.
她说，如果她搞砸了，她就会被厨房用的橡皮扫帚或手杖殴打，这会划破她的脸。
That was the worst one, she says.
她说，那是最糟糕的一次。
The second worst one was with a golf club.
第二糟糕的是高尔夫球杆。
And the third worst one was with cleats near my eye.
第三糟糕的是我眼睛附近有防滑钉。
No, I think I got kicked.
不，我想我被踢了。
Elna Baker She asked me not to reach out to her birth parents to confirm these details because she was worried for her safety.
埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 她要求我不要联系她的亲生父母来确认这些细节，因为她担心自己的安全。
And I didn't.
但我没有。
The members of her family here in the States confirmed that this is what her birth parents are like.
她在美国的家人证实，这就是她的亲生父母的样子。
And her mother and therapist corroborated that her story of being abused has always remained consistent.
她的母亲和治疗师证实，她被虐待的故事始终保持一致。
I remember after every time they would beat me, I put an X on whatever calendar I had and be like, this will never happen again.
我记得每次他们打败我后，我都会在我的日历上打上“X”，然后说，这种事再也不会发生了。
I will be so good now that this will never happen again.
我现在会很好，这样的事情不会再发生了。
Like from this day forward, I'll finally be a good girl.
从今天开始，我终于要做一个好女孩了。
Yep.
是的。
Elna Baker Did you feel like you'd never be the girl they wanted you to be?
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）：你是否觉得你永远无法成为他们希望你成为的女孩？
No, I thought eventually, I'm going to get there.
不，我想最终我会到达那里。
I just have to keep trying.
我只需要继续努力。
Mhm.
嗯。
Shamyla I really thought that eventually, I'm going to become that person.
Shamyla 我真的以为我最终会成为那个人。
She wasn't just physically abused.
她不仅受到身体虐待。
As she got older, she says she was also sexually abused by her brother.
随着年龄的增长，她说她也受到哥哥的性虐待。
And finally, into this bleakness comes a book, the book, Little Women.
最后，在这片荒凉之中出现了一本书，《小妇人》。
So one of my friends noticed the book at a book fair at our school.
我的一个朋友在我们学校的书展上注意到了这本书。
All these books had come from Singapore, and there was Little Women.
所有这些书都来自新加坡，其中就有《小妇人》。
I was like, I know this book, and I want it.
我当时想，我知道这本书，而且我想要它。
And I remember thinking, oh my god, I read that book when I was little.
我记得我当时想，天哪，我小时候读过那本书。
I had a huge, beautiful illustrated copy growing up.
在我成长的过程中，有一本巨大而精美的插图。
And I said to my friend Mirjana, I was like, Mirjana, can you please buy it?
我对我的朋友 Mirjana 说，Mirjana，你能买它吗？
It's 10 rupees, and I'll pay you back.
10卢比，我还给你。
She'd tried smuggling books home before, but she'd always been caught.
她以前曾尝试过将书籍偷运回家，但总是被抓住。
She hid the book inside her mattress pad underneath the bed, and she broke it into sections, roughly eight piles, so that it didn't make the mattress stick up in any way.
她把书藏在床底下的床垫垫里，然后把它分成几部分，大约八堆，这样它就不会以任何方式使床垫粘起来。
When she heard her family go out, she'd wait and then carefully unzip the mattress pad and take a section of the book out at a time.
当她听到家人出去时，她会等待，然后小心地拉开床垫的拉链，一次取出一部分书。
Whichever one she pulled out first, she read.
无论她先拿出哪一本，她都会读。
It was the book of my life.
这是我一生的书。
It was the only book I had to escape.
这是我唯一必须逃离的书。
It was the only book that I had to actually read over and over again.
这是唯一一本我必须一遍又一遍地阅读的书。
And I kind of memorized it.
我已经记住了。
I'm going to read you some quotes from the book.
我将给你读一些书中的引言。
OK.
好的。
Elna Baker And just interrupt if you know where it is or what this is about.
Elna Baker 如果你知道它在哪里或者是关于什么的，就打断一下。
And then I'm going to just randomly open the book.
然后我会随机打开这本书。
Yeah.
是的。
Ooh.
哦。
"'Mercy on me.
“‘怜悯我吧。
Beth loves Laurie,' she said, sitting down on--"
贝丝爱劳里，”她一边说，一边坐在——”
Oh, this is when Beth is ill, and Beth is changing.
哦，这是贝丝生病的时候，贝丝正在改变。
And she thinks the secret is that Beth is in love with Laurie.
她认为秘密是贝丝爱上了劳里。
"Mrs. March and Jo were deep in their own affairs when a sound from Meg made them look up to see her staring at her note."
“马奇夫人和乔正沉浸在自己的事情中，这时梅格的声音让他们抬起头，看到她盯着她的纸条。”
Oh, that's when Meg has written to Mr. Brooke, and he actually writes back.
哦，就在那时，梅格给布鲁克先生写了信，他也确实回信了。
But it was Laurie pretending to be Mr. Brooke.
但劳里假装是布鲁克先生。
We did this eight times, and she's able to get everything I read within seconds.
我们这样做了八次，她能够在几秒钟内获得我读到的所有内容。
You're good at this.
你很擅长这个。
Shamyla [LAUGHS] I told you I read this book over, and over, and over.
Shamyla [笑]我告诉过你我一遍又一遍地读这本书。
How many times?
多少次？
Shamyla Oh, hundreds.
沙米拉 哦，数百。
By now, it's probably thousands.
到现在为止，可能有数千人。
If you haven't read Little Women, it's basically about four sisters, the March sisters.
如果你还没有读过《小妇人》，它基本上是关于四姐妹，马奇姐妹。
Meg, the oldest, is the responsible one.
梅格是最年长的，是负责人。
Jo is the rebel and the writer.
乔是叛逆者和作家。
Beth is sick.
贝丝病了。
And Amy, the youngest, is a spoiled brat.
最小的艾米是个被宠坏的孩子。
Their father's serving in the Civil War, and their mother is raising them alone.
他们的父亲在内战中服役，母亲独自抚养他们。
The book follows these girls from childhood into adulthood.
这本书讲述了这些女孩从童年到成年的故事。
Were there parts of the book that you would just read over and over?
这本书中的某些部分是您会一遍又一遍地阅读的吗？
Like, your favorite parts.
比如，你最喜欢的部分。
I loved reading the parts in the beginning when the two sisters would talk to each other, Meg and Jo, and their bond.
我喜欢读一开始的部分，梅格和乔两姐妹互相交谈，以及她们之间的纽带。
Because I didn't have a sister, and I had no one to talk to.
因为我没有妹妹，也没有人可以倾诉。
And I really loved the scenes about parties and stuff.
我真的很喜欢派对之类的场景。
She loved these scenes because they mirrored her life in a really specific way.
她喜欢这些场景，因为它们以一种非常具体的方式反映了她的生活。
Her birth parents were upper middle class, and they wanted to use Shamyla to marry into a higher class.
她的亲生父母是中上层阶级，他们想利用莎米拉嫁入上层阶级。
So they dressed her up and took her to social events to show her off.
于是他们给她打扮得漂漂亮亮的，带她去参加社交活动来炫耀她。
In the book, there are events like this that the March sisters go to.
书中有马奇姐妹参加的类似活动。
There's a chapter about Meg and Jo going to a party in the very beginning.
开头有一章是关于梅格和乔去参加聚会的。
And they're not out yet in society.
而且他们还没有走出社会。
And I was like, oh my god.
我当时想，天啊。
This 1860-something book is what's happening in Peshawar in 1990.
这本 1860 年左右的书讲述了 1990 年白沙瓦发生的事情。
Oh my god.
天哪。
It's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
I'm not out yet in society, and I have to be very careful how I present myself.
我还没有踏入社会，我必须非常小心地展示自己。
In a way, Little Women was the perfect book for Shamyla's situation because it's like a how-to for girls, a survival guide.
在某种程度上，《小妇人》对于沙米拉的情况来说是一本完美的书，因为它就像女孩的指南，生存指南。
Like most women who read the book, the sister Shamyla relates to the most is Jo.
和大多数读过这本书的女性一样，与莎米拉关系最密切的妹妹是乔。
She was my favorite, too.
她也是我最喜欢的。
I was raised in a strict religion, and my life was supposed to be about marriage and motherhood.
我是在严格的宗教氛围中长大的，我的生活应该是关于婚姻和母性的。
And then Jo came into my orbit and showed me I could have ambition, and be improper, and break the rules.
然后乔进入了我的轨道，向我展示了我可以有野心，也可以不正当，也可以打破规则。
And I loved her for it.
我因此爱她。
And that's how Shamyla felt.
沙米拉就是这么想的。
Jo helped Shamyla hold onto the identity her family was trying so hard to squash.
乔帮助沙米拉保持了她的家人极力压制的身份。
There is a part where Jo and Laurie go running, and Meg scolds her and says, when will you learn to be ladylike?
有一场乔和劳里去跑步，梅格骂她说，你什么时候才能学会淑女风度？
And she says, I hope never.
她说，我希望永远不会。
I always want to run, and I always want to romp.
我总是想跑，我总是想嬉闹。
And I thought, me, too.
我想，我也是。
I never want to have to stop being spirited and independent.
我永远不想停止精力充沛和独立。
And I remember Jo had a temper in the book, and I thought, I have a temper, too.
我记得书里乔有脾气，我想，我也有脾气。
And she's working really hard to curb it.
她正在努力遏制这种情况。
I was like, I am, too.
我当时想，我也是。
I didn't have any of the freedom Jo had.
我没有乔所拥有的自由。
But in my heart, I was just as feisty and independent.
但在我心里，我同样活泼、独立。
So I think it's very funny when nowadays, my friends are like, well, you were so meek.
所以我觉得现在很有趣，我的朋友们都说，嗯，你太温顺了。
And I was like, I was never meek.
我当时想，我从来都不温顺。
That's just a facade.
那只是一个门面。
[LAUGHS] I'm Jo.
[笑]我是乔。
I get her.
我明白她了。
But in a way, what's so interesting is it's so literally like, your way of being Jo was reading about Jo.
但在某种程度上，最有趣的是，从字面上看，你成为乔的方式就是阅读有关乔的事情。
That's where you actually got to be Jo.
那就是你真正必须成为乔的地方。
Yeah.
是的。
I couldn't really do anything else.
我真的无能为力。
In the book, Jo writes stories.
在书中，乔写了故事。
Shamyla loved to write, too.
沙米拉也喜欢写作。
But she says the second year she was there, her birth father declared girls aren't supposed to write, and took a notebook filled with her stories and burned it in the backyard, and made her watch.
但她说，她在那里的第二年，她的亲生父亲宣布女孩不应该写作，并拿了一本写满她故事的笔记本，在后院烧掉了它，让她看。
In the book, Jo writes her stories alone in the attic.
在书中，乔独自在阁楼里写她的故事。
This gave Shamyla the idea to sneak into her bathroom with a fountain pen and paper and write.
这让沙米拉萌生了用钢笔和纸溜进浴室写字的想法。
And then I would wash all the ink off the paper, crumple up the wet paper, and throw it out the hole in the window mesh.
然后我会把纸上的所有墨水洗掉，把湿纸揉成一团，然后把它从窗纱的洞里扔出去。
Wait, you would write the stories, and then erase everything you'd written.
等等，你会写故事，然后删除你写的所有内容。
So there was a hose that attached from the tub to the sink.
所以有一根软管从浴缸连接到水槽。
And so I would take that hose and wash all the ink off.
所以我会拿起那根软管，把所有的墨水洗掉。
Down the drain of the-- Shamyla There was a floor drain, and I would make sure that the floor drain was not blue with the blue ink and that there was no sign of ink that had fallen off the papers.
下水道——沙米拉 有一个地漏，我会确保地漏不会被蓝色墨水弄成蓝色，并且没有墨水从纸上掉下来的迹象。
Shamyla knew how her family would react if they caught her writing, or if they found her copy of Little Women and read any of it.
沙米拉知道，如果她的家人发现她的写作，或者发现她的《小妇人》并读了其中任何一本，他们会作何反应。
Like, there's a boy in the book.
比如，书里有一个男孩。
His name is Laurie.
他的名字叫劳里。
He and Jo have an innocent flirtation.
他和乔有一种天真的调情。
But Shamyla says if her birth parents read that part, they'd think--
但沙米拉说，如果她的亲生父母读到那部分，他们会想——
You don't go over to an adolescent boy's house ever.
你永远不会去一个青春期男孩的家。
There's no innocence in this.
这其中没有任何纯真。
In real life, Jo and Laurie would be doing very bad things.
在现实生活中，乔和劳里会做非常糟糕的事情。
This is not right.
这是不对的。
They're saying in real life, Jo and Laurie would be getting it on?
他们说在现实生活中，乔和劳里会在一起吗？
Basically.
基本上。
Elna Baker I mean, that would have been a better book, right?
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）我的意思是，那会是一本更好的书，对吧？
[LAUGHS] Elna Baker I loved that.
[笑]埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）我喜欢这个。
Oh my gosh.
天哪。
That was, like, my fanfiction.
那就像是我的同人小说。
I would write that.
我会这么写。
That's so funny.
太有趣了。
Elna Baker After a year, Shamyla's American mother was allowed to visit her.
埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 一年后，沙米拉的美国母亲获准探望她。
Shamyla told her what was happening.
沙米拉告诉她发生了什么事。
Her American mother cried and begged for her extended family to intervene and send Shamyla back to the States, but it was useless.
她的美国母亲哭着恳求她的大家庭介入并把沙米拉送回美国，但毫无用处。
Shamyla felt abandoned and hopeless.
沙米拉感到被抛弃和绝望。
So she gave in.
所以她屈服了。
Did her best to make herself into the obedient Pashtan girl they wanted her to be.
她尽最大努力让自己成为他们希望她成为的听话的普什坦女孩。
There's a scene in the book, one I hated because it was so sad, that Shamyla read over and over again.
书中有一个场景，我讨厌这个场景，因为它太悲伤了，沙米拉一遍又一遍地读着。
I reread Beth's dying a lot because there was this sense of helplessness.
我经常重读贝丝的死，因为有这种无助感。
And I really understood that in a way that a lot of people don't.
我确实以一种很多人不理解的方式理解了这一点。
Because I knew when something's inevitable, and it's going to happen, they keep saying the tide's going out in the book.
因为我知道什么时候某些事情是不可避免的，并且它将会发生，所以他们在书中一直说潮水即将退去。
And I was like, yeah, when the tide goes out, you just have to go with it.
我当时想，是的，当潮水退去时，你就必须随波逐流。
You can't fight it.
你无法对抗它。
I understood that on a level I couldn't even explain.
我在某种程度上理解了这一点，我什至无法解释。
I just knew what that meant.
我只知道那意味着什么。
It sounds like their world feels so real to you.
听起来他们的世界对你来说是如此真实。
I know, it really does.
我知道，确实如此。
I felt like I lived with them sometimes.
有时我觉得我和他们住在一起。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Shamyla Like, I felt like I was watching them.
就像 Shamyla 一样，我感觉我在看着他们。
Like, I was, like, the servant or something, watching.
就像，我就像，仆人什么的，在看着。
I felt like I lived in the attic, and I could go downstairs and see them.
我感觉就像住在阁楼里一样，我可以下楼去看他们。
They couldn't see me, but I could see them.
他们看不到我，但我能看到他们。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Shamyla And I would join the world.
沙米拉和我将加入这个世界。
Like, I would join in.
就像，我会加入。
Her real world, of course, was much darker.
当然，她的现实世界要黑暗得多。
By the time she got to 17 or 18, she concluded that there's really only one way out to escape her family and maybe even have a happy life.
当她17岁或18岁时，她得出结论，实际上只有一个出路可以逃离家人，甚至可能过上幸福的生活。
I was like, OK, so the way out is marriage.
我当时想，好吧，所以出路就是结婚。
So I have to play this game to get married.
所以我必须要玩这个游戏才能结婚。
And I started to actually kind of be like, OK, so in Little Women, you know how Meg goes to society dances and wears her glove and skirts, putting her hair up?
我实际上开始想，好吧，所以在《小妇人》中，你知道梅格如何去参加社交舞会，戴着手套和裙子，把头发盘起来吗？
I was like, I can do this.
我当时想，我可以做到这一点。
I can do this to get the best possible way out.
我可以这样做，以获得最好的出路。
I was really thinking about how to create my life with someone else and what that would look like.
我真的在思考如何与别人一起创造我的生活以及那会是什么样子。
And so I had stopped so much caring about going home or going back.
所以我不再那么关心回家或回去。
And marriage is actually what the second part of Little Women is about.
而婚姻其实就是《小妇人》第二部的主题。
The second half of the book is very different from the first.
这本书的后半部分与前半部分有很大不同。
It covers domestic duties and how the girls let go of their wild ways to become good wives.
它涵盖了家庭责任以及女孩们如何摆脱放荡的生活方式成为好妻子。
Shamyla, not a big fan of part two.
Shamyla，不太喜欢第二部分。
The second book, I remember thinking, I don't like this part.
第二本书，我记得我想，我不喜欢这部分。
I like going back to their childhood and reading that part again and again and again.
我喜欢回到他们的童年，一遍又一遍地阅读那部分内容。
I know.
我知道。
It's so, so, so sad.
真是太、太、太悲伤了。
Elna Baker I think I'd really forgotten the message of the second half of the book.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）：我想我真的忘记了本书后半部分的信息。
And it it's just kind of infuriating when you realize how, in some ways, it feels almost like a propaganda for becoming the way you're supposed to be.
当你意识到，在某些方面，这几乎就像是一种宣传，让你成为你应该成为的人时，你会感到有点恼火。
Yeah, I remember thinking when Meg gets married, they have a whole chapter about how she loses her freedom.
是的，我记得当梅格结婚时，他们有一整章关于她如何失去自由。
And I was like, oh god, I don't want that to be my story when I get married.
我当时想，天哪，我不想在我结婚后成为我的故事。
I understood a lot of that because that was what was being asked of me at that time, to give up, give up, give up in order to be a woman to live in this society and be married and have a family.
我很理解这一点，因为这就是当时对我的要求，放弃，放弃，放弃，以便成为一个女人，生活在这个社会，结婚并拥有一个家庭。
A friend at Shamyla's school told her she had a brother that Shamyla could marry who would treat her well.
沙米拉学校的一位朋友告诉她，沙米拉可以嫁给一个对她很好的兄弟。
So she began corresponding with him via her friend.
于是她开始通过她的朋友与他通信。
But her family found out, and they were terrified that their reputation was going to be destroyed by it.
但她的家人发现了，他们害怕自己的名誉会因此而毁掉。
Girls do not communicate directly with boys, and they did what lots of families might do.
女孩不直接与男孩交流，她们做了很多家庭可能会做的事情。
They pulled her out of school and quickly started arranging her marriage to a 30-year-old man.
他们让她退学，并很快开始安排她与一名 30 岁的男人结婚。
As part of their damage control, they decided to send Shamyla away for a few weeks.
作为损害控制的一部分，他们决定将沙米拉送走几周。
But their only relatives who weren't in Peshawar were in America.
但他们唯一不在白沙瓦的亲戚在美国。
So they made arrangements to send her back.
于是他们安排将她送回去。
And while she was there, her birth father and mother wanted her to learn new skills that would add to her bride price, the money the groom's family would be expected to pay them.
当她在那里时，她的亲生父亲和母亲希望她学习新技能，这会增加她的彩礼，即新郎的家人将支付给他们的钱。
He sent me with a whole list.
他给我发了一份完整的清单。
He was like, you have to learn driving, shorthand, swimming.
他说，你必须学开车、速记、游泳。
It just seems like after all the work they did to get you to stay and also their plans to marry you off, it just seems crazy that they would let you go back.
看起来他们为了让你留下来做了那么多的工作，也计划把你嫁出去，但他们竟然让你回去，这似乎很疯狂。
Well, it's funny because she even said something crazy.
嗯，这很有趣，因为她甚至说了一些疯狂的话。
She's like, if they're going to do anything to fix your face-- because remember, they cut my face open-- she's like, ask them if they can put a mole down there, like Cindy Crawford.
她就像，如果他们要采取任何措施来修复你的脸——因为记住，他们把我的脸切开——她就像，问他们是否可以在那里放一颗痣，就像辛迪克劳馥一样。
And so I was like, OK, let's add mole to the list of things that will happen.
所以我想，好吧，让我们将摩尔添加到将要发生的事情列表中。
They send her to stay with her US parents.
他们送她去和她的美国父母住在一起。
Her birth father is so confident that Shamyla is one of them now, that she'll obediently return to Pakistan, he doesn't question letting her go.
她的亲生父亲非常相信沙米拉现在是他们中的一员，相信她会乖乖地返回巴基斯坦，他毫不犹豫地放了她。
A female chaperone traveled with her.
一名女陪同人员与她同行。
So we walked onto the tarmac.
于是我们走上了停机坪。
I climbed up in the plane.
我爬上了飞机。
And as the plane took off, I just started crying nonstop because I knew I wasn't coming back.
当飞机起飞时，我开始不停地哭泣，因为我知道我不会回来了。
I just knew.
我刚刚知道。
I didn't know how I knew it.
我不知道我是怎么知道的。
I don't why I knew it.
我不明白为什么我知道它。
And then watching Pakistan slip away, and I'm like, I'm not going back here.
然后看着巴基斯坦消失，我就想，我不会再回到这里了。
It's never happening.
这永远不会发生。
And was it relief?
这是一种解脱吗？
Shamyla No, I was sad.
沙米拉 不，我很伤心。
I was really, really sad.
我真的非常非常难过。
I was like, goodbye, life that I knew.
我当时想，再见了，我所熟悉的生活。
At first, she had a hard time coming back to America.
起初，她很难回到美国。
She was in total culture shock.
她完全处于文化冲击之中。
She could hardly speak English.
她几乎不会说英语。
She didn't recognize her little brothers.
她不认识她的弟弟们。
The internet existed now.
互联网现在已经存在了。
It was like she'd woken up from a coma.
她就像是从昏迷中醒来一样。
I remember thinking, like, I still like big hair.
我记得我当时想，我还是喜欢大头发。
And everyone's like, that ended in 1989.
每个人都喜欢，这一切在 1989 年就结束了。
No one does that anymore.
没有人再这么做了。
And I was like, but I like that.
我当时想，但我喜欢那样。
They're like, no, now we straighten our hair.
他们说，不，现在我们拉直头发。
And I was like, I don't like that.
我当时想，我不喜欢那样。
Well, you have to.
好吧，你必须这样做。
She enrolled in community college, but she'd been so indoctrinated, it was hard for her to just switch it off.
她就读于社区大学，但她被灌输的思想太深了，她很难把它关掉。
She'd see women in skirts and catch herself judging them.
她会看到穿裙子的女人，然后发现自己在评判她们。
For the first few years, she was a mess.
最初几年，她过得一团糟。
Trying to switch off the ideology was nearly impossible.
试图关闭意识形态几乎是不可能的。
She started to see a therapist who helped her process the extent of what happened to her.
她开始去看治疗师，帮助她处理发生在她身上的事情的严重程度。
There's something her mother said to me on the phone I can't stop thinking about.
她妈妈在电话里对我说的一些话我一直在想。
It's something she told her little sister once.
这是她曾经对她妹妹说过的话。
"Between you and me, we've ruined Shamyla's life."
“你和我，我们毁了沙米拉的生活。”
It's been 23 years since she returned.
她回来已经23年了。
Her life actually diverged from the second half of Little Women, the part she didn't like.
她的生活实际上与《小妇人》的后半部分背道而驰，这是她不喜欢的部分。
She didn't get married, and she's independent.
她没有结婚，很独立。
She runs her own practice as a therapist and social worker.
她以治疗师和社会工作者的身份经营自己的诊所。
She specifically works with people who suffer from trauma because she understands it so well herself.
她专门与遭受创伤的人一起工作，因为她自己对此非常了解。
But sometimes she still returns to Little Women.
但有时她还是会回到《小妇人》中。
Well, it comes up in different situations.
嗯，它会在不同的情况下出现。
I'll be like, OK, so-- the other day, I actually-- this is funny.
我会说，好吧，所以——前几天，我实际上——这很有趣。
My friend has twins, and she was telling me, like, god, I'm so tired.
我的朋友有双胞胎，她告诉我，天哪，我太累了。
And they don't listen, and my husband is so busy.
他们不听，而且我丈夫太忙了。
And I referred her to the chapter of Meg trying to discipline her twins.
我让她参考梅格试图管教她的双胞胎的章节。
And I was like, read this.
我当时想，读这个。
This will help you.
这会对你有所帮助。
Wait.
等待。
Are you constantly like-- do your friends have a joke, where, like, oh, not another Little Women reference?
你是否经常喜欢——你的朋友有一个笑话，比如，哦，不是另一个《小妇人》参考？
No, I think that they think it's funny that I like the book so much, but I don't think anyone really understands why.
不，我认为他们认为我如此喜欢这本书很有趣，但我认为没有人真正理解为什么。
Wait.
等待。
So it's, like, your only frame of reference.
所以它就像是你唯一的参考框架。
Yeah.
是的。
Elna Baker When she's having a hard time or making a decision, she asks the question, opens the book, and whatever passage she reads, it's her answer from the March sisters.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker） 当她遇到困难或做出决定时，她会提出问题，打开书，无论她读到什么段落，这都是马奇姐妹给她的答案。
And she also has this ritual.
而且她也有这个仪式。
So every year on my birthday, I find the corresponding age that I am for the chapter I am, and I read that.
所以每年我生日的时候，我都会找到我所在章节对应的年龄，然后我就会读到它。
In other words, chapter 30 when she turned 30, chapter 31 when she turned 31.
也就是说，她30岁的时候看第30章，31岁的时候看第31章。
To be like, so what is this year going to be about in my life?
比如说，今年我的生活会发生什么？
What's it telling me?
它告诉我什么？
So it's almost like your magic eight ball.
所以这几乎就像你的神奇八号球一样。
What did you turn this year?
今年你转了什么？
Shamyla I'm 41.
沙米拉，我 41 岁。
And what chapter?
还有哪一章？
Shamyla Oh, it's called "Learning to Forget." It's when Laurie's trying to forget Jo, and he starts falling in love with Amy.
Shamyla 哦，它叫“学会忘记”。当劳里试图忘记乔时，他开始爱上艾米。
And how do you think that's going to relate to this year?
您认为这与今年有何关系？
Maybe this year, finally, someone's going to fall in love with me.
也许今年，终于有人会爱上我了。
[LAUGHS] The right one, not all the wrong ones.
[笑]正确的，而不是全错的。
There are 47 chapters in Little Women.
《小妇人》一共有47章。
In six years, she'll turn 48, and she doesn't know what she'll do.
六年后，她将年满 48 岁，但她不知道自己会做什么。
She says maybe she'll start from the beginning again.
她说也许她会重新开始。
And whereas the book used to be a way of escaping her room in Pakistan, now it's a way of returning to that world she built alone in her room.
虽然这本书曾经是她逃离巴基斯坦房间的一种方式，但现在这是一种回到她在房间里独自建造的世界的方式。
It's as if the March sisters are all still living there, and she's the one who left them behind.
就好像马奇姐妹还住在那里，而她就是把她们抛在身后的人。
Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Shamyla told a version of this story herself on the storytelling podcast Risk, which tapes for a live audience.
沙米拉在讲故事的播客《Risk》中亲自讲述了这个故事的一个版本，该播客为现场观众录制了录音。
You can hear that version and all those stories at risk-show.com.
您可以在risk-show.com 上听到该版本和所有这些故事。
Coming up, Wu Tang is for the children, children of the future.
即将到来的武唐是为了孩子们，为了未来的孩子。
So is Wu Tang the future?
那么武当是未来吗？
That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台稍后将继续我们的节目。
Act Two: Daddy Lessons Ira Glass It's This American Life.
第二幕：爸爸给艾拉·格拉斯上课，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on the show, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周的节目我们都会选择一个主题，为您带来关于该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, The Weight of Words, stories about the words that people turn to for comfort or strength.
今天的节目《言语的重量》讲述了人们为了寻求安慰或力量而求助于言语的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our show.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Daddy Lessons.
第二幕，爸爸的教训。
So the most recent bit of serious parenting that my dad did with me-- and I say this realizing that this might be the very last life lesson he might give me, we are both getting up there in years-- was a protracted month-long campaign to switch from Excel to Quicken to keep track of my personal finances.
因此，我父亲最近对我所做的认真的养育工作——我说这可能是他可能给我的最后一堂人生课，我们都已经好几年了——是一场为期一个月的长期运动，从 Excel 切换到 Quicken 来跟踪我的个人财务状况。
He felt very strongly about this.
他对此有非常强烈的感受。
And I just want to say yes, the numbers add up the same, no matter what software you use.
我只想说是的，无论您使用什么软件，数字加起来都是一样的。
But Quicken-- I mean, don't get my dad started.
但是奎肯——我的意思是，别让我爸爸开始。
He's a retired CPA.
他是一名退休的注册会计师。
He had already trained me to save all my receipts.
他已经训练我保存所有收据。
Please, that's basic.
拜托，这是基本的。
And he went on with this at such length that at some point, I realized, oh, switching software was not a piece of friendly financial advice.
他继续说得很长，以至于在某个时候，我意识到，哦，转换软件并不是一个友好的财务建议。
This was actual parenting happening.
这是真实发生的育儿经历。
Not switching to Quicken meant an actual repudiation of him as a father.
不改用奎肯意味着实际上否认他作为一个父亲。
It would actually be a failure of parenthood.
这实际上是为人父母的失败。
Parents try to shape who we are in their own image so often.
父母常常试图按照自己的形象来塑造我们。
They make sure their kids are exposed to whatever-- modern art, sports, nature, science, theater, whatever they love.
他们确保他们的孩子接触到任何东西——现代艺术、体育、自然、科学、戏剧，以及他们喜欢的任何东西。
They train them to be the world's greatest tennis player or golfer, that kind of thing.
他们将他们训练成世界上最伟大的网球运动员或高尔夫球手之类的。
My friend, Adam, came up with a scheme like that.
我的朋友亚当想出了一个这样的计划。
Neil Drumming is one of our producers here.
尼尔·鼓明 (Neil Drumming) 是我们的制作人之一。
His friend Adam is Adam Mansbach, a writer.
他的朋友亚当是亚当·曼斯巴赫，一位作家。
Adam is a DJ, a record collector.
Adam 是一名 DJ，也是一名唱片收藏家。
And he wanted his daughter, Vivian, to love music the way he loved music, exactly the way he loved music.
他希望他的女儿薇薇安能够像他热爱音乐一样热爱音乐，就像他热爱音乐一样。
One of the things I feel like I got right about parenting is that I never played Viv any kids' music because I understood that any song that you played a two-year-old, a three-year-old, might become their favorite song, and then you would have to listen to it 20 times a day.
我觉得我在养育孩子方面做得对的一件事是，我从来没有给 Viv 播放过任何儿童音乐，因为我知道你给两岁、三岁的孩子播放的任何歌曲都可能成为他们最喜欢的歌曲，然后你就必须每天听 20 遍。
So I never played her anything I wasn't willing to listen to 20 times a day.
所以我从来不给她放任何我不愿意每天听20遍的东西。
So she from a very young age was listening to a lot of music I liked.
所以她从很小的时候就听了很多我喜欢的音乐。
Is that a thing that you got right about parenting, or is that a thing that you just did for yourself?
这是你关于养育孩子的正确做法，还是你只是为自己做的事情？
I mean, [LAUGHS] aren't the two synonymous really, Neil?
我的意思是，[笑]这两个真的不是同义词吗，尼尔？
I'm not sure what the difference is.
我不确定有什么区别。
Adam likes '80s and '90s hip hop perhaps more than me, which is saying a lot.
Adam 可能比我更喜欢 80 年代和 90 年代的嘻哈音乐，这说明了很多问题。
Anyway, he fed Vivian a steady diet of classic material-- A Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Run-DMC, Das EFX.
不管怎样，他给薇薇安提供了稳定的经典素材——《A Tribe Called Quest》、《Public Enemy》、《Run-DMC》、《Das EFX》。
There was probably a year, probably two years, where the Stetsasonic record In Full Gear got more play in our house than any other record.
可能有一年，可能有两年，Stetsasonic 唱片《In Full Gear》在我们家里的播放量比任何其他唱片都多。
We may be the only household in North America that can say that, that in the year 2014, we listened to In Full Gear more than any other album.
我们可能是北美唯一可以这么说的家庭，在 2014 年，我们听《In Full Gear》的次数比任何其他专辑都多。
What is that record, '88?
88年那张唱片是什么？
Adam Mansbach Yeah, it came out in '88.
Adam Mansbach 是的，它于 88 年问世。
This exposure therapy approach to parenting has been known to fail.
众所周知，这种暴露疗法的养育方法是失败的。
I grew up surrounded by beds that were always made.
我从小就被铺好的床包围着。
But if you walked into my apartment now, you'd see no evidence of that.
但如果你现在走进我的公寓，你不会看到任何证据。
In Adam's case, though, it worked.
但在亚当的例子中，它奏效了。
He noticed that by the time she was six years old, Vivian could rap along to any hip hop song he played her.
他注意到，当薇薇安六岁的时候，她就能跟着他播放的任何嘻哈歌曲说唱了。
She would memorize it, and she would be very much in the pocket and just not missing a beat.
她会记住它，而且她会非常得心应手，不会错过任何一个节拍。
I remember one of the songs that we played a lot was "The Choice is Yours" remix by Black Sheep.
我记得我们经常播放的一首歌曲是 Black Sheep 的“The Choice is Yours”混音版。
I remember recording her just on my phone, doing the third verse of the song, the famous third verse of the song, "Engine, engine, number nine."
我记得用我的手机给她录音，录制歌曲的第三节，这首歌著名的第三节，“引擎，引擎，九号”。
(RAPPING) If my train goes off the track, pick it up!
（说唱）如果我的火车脱轨，把它接起来！
Pick it up!
捡起来！
Pick it up!
捡起来！
Back on the scene, crispy and clean.
回到现场，又脆又干净。
You can try, but then why?
你可以尝试，但是为什么呢？
She had it, like, perfectly down, and it's not an easy verse to do.
她把它完全放下了，这不是一首容易写的诗。
And I remember sending it to our friend, J.
我记得把它发给我们的朋友 J.
Period, who, in turn, sent it to Dres from Black Sheep.
期间，谁又将其从 Black Sheep 发送给了 Dres。
And he was like, yo, this is incredible.
他说，哟，这太不可思议了。
Tell her-- give her my props.
告诉她——给她我的道具。
And I was like, yo, Viv.
我当时想，哟，维芙。
You're, like, six, so this means nothing to you, but Dres from Black Sheep said that you're dope.
你大概六岁，所以这对你来说毫无意义，但黑羊的德雷斯说你很傻。
This is his song.
这是他的歌。
(RAPPING) Engine, engine, number nine on the New York transit line.
（敲击声）发动机，发动机，纽约公交线上的九号发动机。
If my train goes off the track, pick it up!
如果我的火车出轨了，就把它接起来！
Pick it up!
捡起来！
Pick it up!
捡起来！
Come on.
快点。
Like a lot of guys our age, Adam tried his hand at being a rapper when he was younger.
像我们这个年纪的许多人一样，亚当年轻时尝试成为一名说唱歌手。
He joined a group.
他加入了一个团体。
They made some songs that never quite went anywhere.
他们创作了一些从未有过任何进展的歌曲。
He stayed in the hip hop world, though.
但他仍然留在嘻哈世界。
He still has a lot of connections.
他还是有很多人脉的。
So he was thrilled to find out his daughter had some skills.
因此，他很高兴发现自己的女儿有一些技能。
And proud father that he is, he wanted more people to know.
他是一位自豪的父亲，他希望更多的人知道。
When another one of his entertainment industry buddies needed a theme song for a PBS kids show he was making called Bug Bites, Adam jumped at the chance to write Vivian some original material.
当他的另一位娱乐界好友需要为他正在制作的 PBS 儿童节目《Bug Bites》创作一首主题曲时，亚当抓住了这个机会，为薇薇安写了一些原创材料。
(RAPPING) Six legs, eight legs, fly and crawl.
（说唱）六条腿，八条腿，飞翔和爬行。
Let's get it, world, come one, come all!
让我们来吧，世界，来吧，都来吧！
Bugs can teach us so much more about the world.
虫子可以让我们更多地了解这个世界。
Let's go explore!
我们去探索吧！
Some of these facts are incredible knowledge, like bees keep flowers and vegetables growing.
其中一些事实是令人难以置信的知识，比如蜜蜂让花朵和蔬菜生长。
The show wound up not using the song, but Adam couldn't stop listening to it.
节目最终没有使用这首歌，但亚当无法停止听它。
He walked around playing it over and over in his headphones.
他一边走一边用耳机一遍又一遍地播放这首歌。
I mean, I knew she was skilled, but I sort of took it for granted.
我的意思是，我知道她很熟练，但我有点认为这是理所当然的。
I was like, oh, that's just regular.
我当时想，哦，这只是正常现象。
Everybody can rhyme.
每个人都会押韵。
Everybody I know can rhyme, you know?
我认识的每个人都会押韵，你知道吗？
But I remember at that point being like, oh, you know what?
但我记得当时我就想，哦，你知道吗？
This is really unique.
这确实是独一无二的。
Did this change your expectations for what this could be?
这是否改变了您对这可能发生的事情的期望？
Yeah, I think it opened it up.
是的，我认为它打开了。
It made me want to maybe want to do more and see where we could take this.
这让我想做更多事情，看看我们可以把它带到哪里。
And so they did.
他们也确实这么做了。
Vivian (RAPPING) Step into my office and have a seat.
维维安（说唱）走进我的办公室坐下。
He and Vivian would plan out songs during the winters in California and record with his music industry friends back east during the summers.
他和维维安会在加利福尼亚州的冬天计划歌曲，并在夏天与他的音乐界朋友一起回到东部录制歌曲。
Writing for Vivian, Adam would layer in little in-jokes they shared or references that he knew his daughter would appreciate.
亚当在为薇薇安写作时，会加入他们分享的小笑话或他知道女儿会欣赏的参考资料。
Like when she was into Percy Jackson, he'd weave in the Greek gods.
就像当她喜欢波西·杰克逊时，他会融入希腊诸神。
When she was into Harry Potter, he worked that in.
当她迷上《哈利·波特》时，他也参与其中。
(RAPPING) Yeah.
（说唱）是的。
I'm nice with mine like Dumbledore, so what you want to rumble for?
我对邓布利多这样的人很好，所以你想干嘛？
Vivian recorded under the moniker the Jazz Wolf, a name that she came up with.
薇薇安以“爵士狼”的名字录制唱片，这是她想出的名字。
Her first real taste of mainstream exposure came by way of a song that Adam, who's originally from Massachusetts, wrote for her to perform in a hometown Boston accent.
她第一次真正接触到主流是通过来自马萨诸塞州的亚当为她写的一首歌曲，并用家乡波士顿口音演唱。
(RAPPING) My name's Clarissa, I'm wicked pissa.
（说唱）我叫克拉丽莎，我是邪恶的小便士。
That girl Amber, I had to diss her.
安布尔那个女孩，我不得不diss她。
You opened up a powder keg, you freakin' chowder head.
你打开了一个火药桶，你这个该死的杂烩头。
I'm a hot target, you're workin' star market.
我是炙手可热的目标，而你却在明星市场工作。
They made a video for the song, which made it onto the home page of the popular humor website, Funny or Die.
他们为这首歌制作了视频，并登上了流行幽默网站“Funny or Die”的主页。
But "Mush Lobsta" was more like a comedy bit than a banger.
但《Mush Lobsta》更像是一部喜剧，而不是一部香肠。
More DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince than it was Erik B.
更像 DJ Jazzy Jeff 和 Fresh Prince，而不是 Erik B.
& Rakim.
＆拉基姆。
Adam didn't feel the song was representative of how he imagined Vivian as an artist.
亚当不认为这首歌代表了他对薇薇安作为艺术家的想象。
It was a funny song, but it was a funny song.
这是一首有趣的歌，但它确实是一首有趣的歌。
It wasn't truly indicative of her skills as an MC because it was more focused on dropping Massachusetts-centric jokes.
这并不能真正体现她作为主持人的技能，因为它更侧重于讲以马萨诸塞州为中心的笑话。
(RAPPING) Eat a rind and drink a beer, and then I slap a critic.
（说唱）吃一块果皮，喝一杯啤酒，然后我打批评者一巴掌。
You're off the rez like Teddy was at Chappaquiddick.
你离开了雷兹，就像泰迪在查帕奎迪克一样。
Adam had told me that his kid rapped early on, but I didn't understand how serious the two of them were about this until September of 2017 when I received an email from Adam with no subject heading.
Adam 告诉我，他的孩子很早就开始说唱了，但直到 2017 年 9 月我收到 Adam 发来的一封没有主题的电子邮件时，我才明白他们两个对此有多认真。
Attached to the email were two remarkably well produced songs, described in the body of the email simply as Jazz Wolf Heat Rocks.
电子邮件中附有两首制作精良的歌曲，在电子邮件正文中将其简单地描述为“Jazz Wolf Heat Rocks”。
One of these so-called heat rocks featured Vivian, who I'd met once only briefly, but knew to be a small blonde white girl, rapping over a fluttery dancehall rhythm in full on Jamaican Patois.
其中一个所谓的热摇滚以维维安为主角，我只见过她一次，但我知道她是一个金发白人小女孩，用牙买加方言完整地用轻快的舞厅节奏说唱。
Did listening to this reggae song, penned by a best-selling Jewish author for his nine-year-old and most likely recorded in or near his house on Martha's Vineyard, make me feel uncomfortable?
听这首由一位畅销犹太作家为他九岁的孩子创作的雷鬼歌曲，很可能是在他位于玛莎葡萄园岛的房子或附近录制的，是否会让我感到不舒服？
Yeah, sure, a little.
是的，当然，有一点。
But I've been listening to hip hop a long time.
但我听嘻哈音乐已经很长时间了。
And between all the sampling, and biting, and flipping styles, I've kind of made my peace with cultural appropriation.
在所有的采样、咬咬和翻转风格之间，我已经与文化挪用达成了和解。
All I ask is that you give credit where credit is due and that you do your due diligence.
我所要求的只是你在应得的信用处给予信用，并尽职调查。
Neil, I should say that I had some misgivings about the song.
尼尔，我应该说我对这首歌有些疑虑。
I was going to ask.
我正想问。
Adam Mansbach I definitely-- really, the first thing I did was send it to every Jamaican I knew and be like, yo, so what do you think about this?
亚当·曼斯巴赫（Adam Mansbach），我确实——真的，我做的第一件事就是把它发送给我认识的每一个牙买加人，然后说，哟，你对此有何看法？
Anyway, the point is it wasn't just me and some Caribbean islanders who got this email.
不管怎样，重点是不仅仅是我和一些加勒比岛民收到了这封电子邮件。
Adam was stepping up Vivian's game and had sent the Jazz Wolf de facto demo to just about every music industry contact he had.
Adam 正在加强 Vivian 的游戏，并将 Jazz Wolf 事实上的演示发送给他所接触的几乎所有音乐行业联系人。
To a certain degree, it worked.
在某种程度上，它起作用了。
Friends praised his daughter's music.
朋友们称赞他女儿的音乐。
Artists who Adam admired wanted to record with her.
亚当欣赏的艺术家想和她一起录音。
A big player in the music industry who'd had a hand in discovering Lauryn Hill suggested that they record more songs for a legitimate demo.
音乐界的一位大人物曾参与发现劳伦·希尔 (Lauryn Hill)，建议他们为合法的演示录制更多歌曲。
Bolstered by all this interest, Adam set out to write Vivian something really special.
在所有这些兴趣的支持下，亚当开始为薇薇安写一些非常特别的东西。
It was the kind of thing he'd have written for himself back in his rapping days-- multi-syllabic, rapid fire, a real showpiece designed to take the Jazz Wolf all the way to the next level.
这就是他在说唱时代为自己写的东西——多音节、快速射击，一个真正的展示品，旨在将爵士狼一路推向新的水平。
He was on a business trip when the ghost writer in him really took over.
当他内心的代笔作家真正接管时，他正在出差。
And I remember I had to go away for a week.
我记得我不得不离开一周。
I was in Chicago doing some stuff.
我在芝加哥做一些事情。
And I was writing bars for her, and I was really trying to write the most complicated, difficult verses I could because I knew she could handle it.
我正在为她写小节，我真的很努力写出我能写的最复杂、最困难的诗句，因为我知道她能应付。
And I was like, this is going to be really fun.
我当时想，这会非常有趣。
And I came back with the song, and we rehearsed it for a long time.
我带着这首歌回来了，我们排练了很长时间。
We got a beat from Dug Infinite, an illustrious producer who worked with Common and all kinds of people.
我们得到了 Dug Infinite 的启发，他是一位杰出的制作人，曾与 Common 和各种各样的人合作过。
And Viv had been practicing it for weeks.
薇芙已经练习了好几个星期了。
And we had plans to go to his house and record it.
我们计划去他家录制。
She was nine at the time.
当时她九岁。
I remember because the chorus of the song played with the fact that she was nine.
我记得是因为这首歌的副歌部分体现了她九岁的事实。
We flipped the chorus from 9 millimeter goes bang, and it was like, (RAPPING) wadadadang, wadadadang, 'ey, listen, 'cause I'm nine, and I kick enough slang.
我们把副歌部分从 9 毫米变成了“砰”，就像是，（说唱）wadadadang，wadadadang，‘嘿，听着，’因为我九岁了，我踢了足够多的俚语。
But despite all Adam's craft and preparation, there was an unforeseen but not unforeseeable issue with the talent.
尽管亚当拥有出色的技巧和准备，但他的天赋仍然存在一个无法预见但并非不可预见的问题。
She hadn't slept that night.
那天晚上她没有睡觉。
We had a new baby.
我们有了一个新宝宝。
Vivian has two younger sisters, and the older of the two at that time was only a few months old and was up crying.
薇薇安有两个妹妹，当时两个妹妹只有几个月大，当时就哭了起来。
And so Viv was, like, on no sleep.
维芙就这样失眠了。
And I remember we got to the studio really early.
我记得我们很早就到了工作室。
And she was just exhausted and not really at her peak.
而且她只是精疲力竭，还没有真正达到巅峰状态。
And it was difficult for her to get it down.
而她却很难把它记下来。
And we kind of called it-- we cut it short.
我们称之为——我们缩短了它。
I was like, you know what?
我当时想，你知道吗？
Let's come back another day, Dug, because this isn't-- you know.
让我们改天再来吧，达格，因为这不是——你知道的。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
No, I'm sorry.
不，对不起。
I didn't mean to be like that.
我不是故意的。
Nah, are you kidding me?
不，你在开玩笑吗？
It's not your fault.
这不是你的错。
That's Vivian.
那是维维安。
She was in the studio with her dad during this interview.
接受采访时，她和父亲在录音室里。
She's 11 now.
她现在11岁了。
Right?
正确的？
So I remember coming back from there, and Viv was tired.
所以我记得从那里回来时，薇芙很累。
And in the car, she told me.
在车上，她告诉我。
She was like, Papa, I'm just not that into this right now.
她说，爸爸，我现在不太喜欢这个。
Something along those lines, like I'm not into you writing me these rap songs right now.
类似的，就像我不喜欢你现在给我写这些说唱歌曲。
Vivian, do you remember this moment at all?
薇薇安，你还记得这一刻吗？
This night?
今天晚上？
I did.
我做到了。
And I think that-- I think the reason I told him then was that-- this is going to sound really stupid.
我认为——我想我当时告诉他的原因是——这听起来真的很愚蠢。
But I thought that because-- I think he would be less angry if he knew I was tired and didn't want to argue.
但我这么认为是因为——我想如果他知道我累了并且不想争论的话，他就会不那么生气了。
So you had already come to this decision.
所以你已经做出了这个决定。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, we hadn't talked about it, but I had already gone through it in my head what I was trying to say.
我的意思是，我们还没有讨论过这个问题，但我已经在脑子里想好了我想说的话。
OK, let's back up a bit.
好吧，让我们备份一下。
Vivian's dissatisfaction with how Adam was steering her rap career goes back long before this night-- back many car rides, in fact.
薇薇安对亚当如何指导她的说唱事业的不满可以追溯到今晚之前——事实上，可以追溯到很多次开车旅行。
She recalls trying to listen to new music while riding with her dad.
她回忆起和父亲一起骑车时尝试听新音乐的经历。
Just flipping through radio stations in the car and him turning on a radio station, and I was like, oh, yeah, this one.
只是在车里翻阅广播电台，然后他打开了一个广播电台，我就想，哦，是的，就是这个。
He's like, oh, that's hot trash.
他就像，哦，那是热垃圾。
We're not listening to that.
我们不听这个。
You see, Adam didn't realize this, but even while she'd been sharing his love of hip hop, Vivian had been developing her own taste.
你看，亚当没有意识到这一点，但即使在她分享他对嘻哈音乐的热爱时，薇薇安也一直在发展自己的品味。
She'd started to enjoy more contemporary music, god forbid, even pop music-- Taylor Swift, and later Ke$ha, and Nicki Minaj, and Cardi B.
她开始喜欢更多的当代音乐，上帝保佑，甚至是流行音乐——泰勒·斯威夫特(Taylor Swift)、后来的Ke$ha、妮琪·米娜(Nicki Minaj)和卡迪·B(Cardi B)。
But she'd been listening to music through Adam's ears long enough to understand and internalize just how much he wouldn't approve.
但她通过亚当的耳朵听音乐已经足够长的时间了，足以理解并内化他有多么不赞成。
So you felt like there were things that you liked that you couldn't tell him about?
所以你觉得有些你喜欢的事情不能告诉他？
No. Well, there were things that I liked that I could tell him about, but that I didn't feel like there was any point to telling him about because he would tell me all the errors.
不。嗯，有些事情我喜欢可以告诉他，但我觉得没有必要告诉他，因为他会告诉我所有的错误。
And I would be like, yo, like, listen to this person's voice!
我会想，哟，听听这个人的声音！
Or like, this song is so good, and play it.
或者说，这首歌太好听了，就播放一下吧。
And then afterward, Papa would be like, you want to hear something good?
然后，爸爸就会说，你想听点好听的吗？
And then run into where he keeps his records, and I'm like, oh gosh.
然后跑到他保存记录的地方，我就想，天哪。
One time, I was playing him a song from Hamilton, where someone was rapping really fast.
有一次，我给他播放一首《汉密尔顿》的歌曲，其中有人说唱得很快。
And I played it, and he just, like, half listened.
我演奏了它，他只是半听着。
And then afterward, he's like, you want to hear really fast rapping?
然后他说，你想听非常快的说唱吗？
And I'm like, oh god.
我想，天哪。
Well, all right, all right.
好吧，好吧。
Let me back up for a second.
让我备份一下。
Like--
就像——
Sorry, Papa.
对不起，爸爸。
Adam Mansbach At the risk of getting on my soapbox and with the full understanding this is never going to make it actually into this piece.
亚当·曼斯巴赫（Adam Mansbach）冒着登上我的肥皂箱的风险，并且充分理解了这一点，这永远不会真正进入这篇文章。
My thing with Hamilton was like, cool, Hamilton is fine.
我对汉密尔顿的看法是，很酷，汉密尔顿很好。
My issue with it is that a billion people who have no--
我的问题是，十亿人没有——
Here, Adam's critique of Hamilton, while spirited, is mostly remarkable in that he somehow manages to vehemently object to the musical's popularity, while simultaneously name dropping his friendship with one of its former stars, Daveed Diggs.
在这里，亚当对汉密尔顿的批评虽然激烈，但最引人注目的是，他以某种方式强烈反对这部音乐剧的受欢迎，同时放弃了他与其中一位前明星戴维德·迪格斯的友谊。
Vivian didn't just want to feel free to listen to Hamilton in the car on the way to school.
维维安不仅仅是想在去学校的路上随意地在车里听汉密尔顿的讲话。
She wanted to incorporate all of her newfound influences into her own music.
她想将所有新发现的影响融入到自己的音乐中。
I felt like, I mean, it's really cool that I'm doing all Papa's cool stuff, but if I have this voice and I have access to this recording, can't I use it to do things that are more my style?
我觉得，我的意思是，我正在做爸爸所有很酷的事情，这真的很酷，但是如果我有这个声音并且我可以访问这段录音，我不能用它来做更符合我风格的事情吗？
It's not all that surprising that someone Vivian's age would eventually diverge from the path her father set her on when she was six.
薇薇安这个年纪的人最终会偏离她父亲在她六岁时为她设定的道路，这并不奇怪。
And this wasn't even the first time Vivian had stood up to her dad.
这甚至不是薇薇安第一次反抗她的父亲。
She's usually pretty outspoken.
她平时很直言不讳。
But she told me this time was different-- that she had been more scared than usual to speak her mind, and that it took her months to work up the courage.
但她告诉我，这次有所不同——她比平时更害怕说出自己的想法，她花了几个月的时间才鼓起勇气。
She was right to be concerned.
她的担心是对的。
Adam took it noticeably hard.
亚当明显感到很难受。
To hear him tell it, he interpreted this slight rejection as a sort of referendum on his parenting.
听他说，他将这种轻微的拒绝解释为对他的养育方式的一种全民公投。
I felt a certain kind of sadness on a couple of levels.
我在几个层面上感受到了某种悲伤。
First, disappointment in myself for getting carried away, and making her feel uncomfortable or making her feel like an unwilling participant in this project.
首先，我对自己的得意忘形感到失望，让她感到不舒服，或者让她感觉自己是这个项目的不情愿的参与者。
And also just a sense of letdown, that like wow, maybe we were no longer going to be hanging out after dinner, playing instrumentals and fitting rhymes to them, and practicing, and rehearsing, and cutting scratch demos, and that kind of thing.
还有一种失望感，就像哇，也许我们不再在晚饭后闲逛，演奏乐器并为它们编韵，练习、排练、剪辑演示样片，诸如此类的事情。
Because it was something that brought me a lot of joy, both reveling in her skill, but really, more than anything, just spending time together and that feeling of collaboration, which is wonderful when you find it with anybody.
因为这给我带来了很多快乐，两人都陶醉于她的技巧，但实际上，最重要的是，只是花时间在一起，以及那种合作的感觉，当你发现与任何人在一起时，这种感觉真是太棒了。
But when you find it with your own kid, it's magical.
但当你和自己的孩子一起发现它时，它是神奇的。
I mean, this is me, like, armchair psychotherapist, but was there any part of you that was deflecting some energy into this in a way that maybe was more for you than for Vivian?
我的意思是，这就是我，就像一个纸上谈兵的心理治疗师，但你是否有任何一部分以一种可能更适合你而不是薇薇安的方式将一些能量转移到这个问题上？
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I mean, the whole period of time that we're talking about is fairly tumultuous.
我的意思是，我们正在谈论的整个时期相当动荡。
I mean, from when Viv was six until now--
我是说，从 Viv 六岁到现在——
Five years.
五年了。
Adam Mansbach Five years.
亚当·曼斯巴赫 五年。
I mean, that's a period of time that covers her mom and I splitting up.
我的意思是，那段时间我和她妈妈分手了。
It covers a new relationship, two new babies.
它涵盖了一段新的关系、两个新婴儿。
So yeah, you probably have a point there, I mean, at least in the sense of this being something that was purely fun, and exciting, and didn't feel heavy in any way.
所以，是的，你可能说得有道理，我的意思是，至少从某种意义上说，这是一件纯粹有趣、令人兴奋的事情，而且一点也不觉得沉重。
They never did finish that song.
他们从未完成那首歌。
Adam and Vivian's magical collaboration was not infinitely sustainable.
亚当和薇薇安的魔法合作并不是无限可持续的。
But so what?
但那又怎样呢？
When everything was happening in our family also, it was a way for me to connect with Papa.
当我们家里也发生一切时，这是我与爸爸联系的一种方式。
And also after we'd had a lot of fun kicking rhymes, we could talk about the more important stuff.
在我们玩得很开心之后，我们可以讨论更重要的事情。
He could be like, how do you feel about the new baby?
他可能会问，你对这个新生儿感觉如何？
And I feel like it just-- I would be a lot less close with Papa now if we hadn't spent so much time together doing that.
我觉得如果我们没有花那么多时间在一起做这件事，我现在和爸爸的关系就会少很多。
Like, I wouldn't be coming into your room and be like, let's talk about this.
就像，我不会走进你的房间，然后说，我们来谈谈这个吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Adam Mansbach I'm glad.
亚当·曼斯巴赫 我很高兴。
That makes me happy.
这让我很高兴。
I'm glad to hear that.
我很高兴听到这个消息。
Recently, Vivian has been getting more into singing.
最近，Vivian更加热衷于唱歌。
She writes her own poems and adapts them into songs.
她自己写诗并将其改编成歌曲。
She's written a few, and she thinks she could be good at it with a little time and a little help.
她已经写了一些，她认为只要花一点时间和一点帮助，她就能做好。
I wouldn't say that I totally want Papa to be out of my career as a singer.
我不会说我完全希望爸爸退出我的歌手生涯。
Like, he's super supportive, and he's obviously the one with all the connections.
就像，他非常支持我，而且他显然是拥有所有联系的人。
But--
但是——
Practical.
实用。
That's very practical of you.
你这话很实际。
That's smart.
这很聪明。
Yeah, it's very cold-blooded right there.
是啊，那里真的很冷血。
I'm a father myself.
我自己也是一名父亲。
It's a new thing-- so new, in fact, that all I can say definitively about the experience so far is that I am terrified every single day about what's coming.
这是一个新事物——事实上，太新了，到目前为止，我能明确地说的是，我每天都对即将发生的事情感到恐惧。
I look around to my friends as scared people do.
我像害怕的人一样环顾四周。
And the thing that Adam pulled off gives me some hope.
亚当完成的事情给了我一些希望。
He found an easy way to be with his daughter through difficult times.
他找到了一种轻松的方式来陪伴女儿度过困难时期。
He constructed something fun that they could share no matter what else was swirling around them.
他创造了一些有趣的东西，无论周围有什么事情，他们都可以分享。
And the outcome was perhaps the best one that any parent can imagine.
这个结果也许是所有父母能想象到的最好的结果。
Vivian got it.
薇薇安明白了。
At least for a little while, she was right there with him.
至少有一段时间，她就在他身边。
What do you guys remember?
大家还记得什么？
Do you guys remember-- does anyone remember the super complicated song?
你们还记得吗——还有人记得那首超级复杂的歌曲吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Neil Drumming [LAUGHS] [INAUDIBLE]
尼尔击鼓[笑][听不清]
I remember only the second verse, though.
不过我只记得第二节。
Oh, do it.
哦，做吧。
Vivian Wait.
维维安等等。
Let me just do it in my head for a second.
让我在脑子里想一下。
OK.
好的。
You want me to do it now, Papi?
你想让我现在就做吗，爸爸？
Yeah, do it.
是的，做吧。
Vivian (RAPPING) [INAUDIBLE] solemnly swear to scar you horribly.
维维安（说唱）[听不清]庄严发誓要给你留下可怕的疤痕。
Destiny calling me, honestly [INAUDIBLE] me.
命运在召唤我，老实说[听不清]我。
But they can't do much harm to me.
但他们不能对我造成太大伤害。
I'm open like a pharmacy.
我像药店一样开门。
Karmically, I'm untouchable, highly combustible.
从业力上来说，我是不可触碰的，非常易燃的。
Ah, I can't remember the rest right now.
啊，剩下的我现在记不清了。
The Jazz Wolf is back.
爵士狼回来了。
What.
什么。
Vivian Stop.
薇薇安站住。
Neil Drumming.
尼尔打鼓。
[MUSIC - BAHAMADIA, "WORDPLAY"]
[音乐 - 巴哈马迪亚，“文字游戏”]
Act Three: Where I Came From Ira Glass Act Three, Where It Came From.
第三幕：我从哪里来 艾拉·格拉斯 第三幕，它从哪里来。
OK, so our show today is about words that have special weight of one sort or another, especially when we're kids.
好的，所以我们今天的节目是关于具有某种特殊分量的单词，尤其是当我们还是孩子的时候。
And we thought we would end today's show with this, from one of our producers, Ben Calhoun.
我们想用我们的制作人之一本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun）的这句话来结束今天的节目。
This is a story that, honestly, I never imagined I'd tell on the radio.
老实说，我从未想过我会在广播中讲述这个故事。
It happened when I was seven and my sister was two.
这件事发生在我七岁、我姐姐两岁的时候。
We were grocery shopping with my mom in my hometown, Milwaukee.
我们和妈妈在我的家乡密尔沃基购物。
This is at Sentry Foods at 71st and Lisbon.
这是位于 71 街和里斯本的 Sentry Foods。
While we were in the store, my sister did the very normal toddler thing of deciding that she was tired and demanding to be carried.
当我们在商店里时，我姐姐做了一个非常正常的蹒跚学步的事情，认为她累了，要求有人抱着她。
She started throwing a fit, whining, refusing to walk.
她开始发脾气、抱怨、拒绝走路。
My mom tried, but then did the normal parent thing of deciding to ignore the tantrum, just to shop as fast as she could and get the heck out of there.
我妈妈尝试过，但后来做了正常的父母事情，决定忽略我的脾气，只是尽快去购物，然后离开那里。
We were almost out of the store when all of a sudden, a man walked up to my sister.
我们快要走出商店时，突然，一个男人走到我姐姐面前。
He stood right over her and shouted down at her, "Stop it.
他站在她身边，对她大喊：“住手。”
You stop it right now." He stomped his foot at her to scare her.
你现在就停下来。”他用脚踩她，吓唬她。
"You stop it.
“你停下来。
Stop it right now."
马上停下来。”
I remember my sister staring at him, terrified.
我记得我妹妹惊恐地盯着他。
My mom stepped in to gather my sister up.
我妈妈过来把我妹妹叫起来。
"She's two, and she's having a tantrum," she said to the man.
“她两岁了，而且正在发脾气，”她对那个男人说。
"You're too old to be having a tantrum."
“你已经老了，不能发脾气了。”
But the guy followed us, walking right behind us as we got into the parking lot, trying to get to our car.
但是那个人跟着我们，当我们进入停车场时，他就走在我们后面，试图找到我们的车。
I remember it was hot and sunny, and otherwise, a beautiful day.
我记得那天很热，阳光明媚，除此之外，这是美好的一天。
For a second, it wasn't clear what the man was going to do.
一时间不明白这个人要做什么。
But then as he got closer, he started shouting a bunch of things at my mother.
但当他靠近时，他开始对我母亲大喊大叫。
The one I remember specifically, "You people need to discipline your children."
我记得特别清楚的是，“你们这些人需要管教你们的孩子。”
My mom is Chinese-American.
我妈妈是美籍华人。
My family's mixed.
我的家庭是混血儿。
Before we could get in our car, the man came right up to my mom and got in her face, puffing his chest out.
在我们上车之前，那个男人径直走到我妈妈面前，扑到了她的脸上，挺起胸膛。
He kept shouting.
他不断地喊叫。
"You people need to go back where you came from!" he yelled.
“你们这些人应该回到你们来的地方！”他喊道。
"Go back where you came from." That's how my mom and I both remember it.
“你从哪里来就回哪里去吧。”我和我妈都记得这样的事。
As he was yelling and in her face, I remember how my mom kind of froze.
当他当着她的面大喊大叫时，我记得我妈妈有点僵住了。
And I remember feeling very, very scared.
我记得当时感觉非常非常害怕。
This man was so much bigger than my mom, who's small-- just 5'2".
这个男人比我妈妈大得多，我妈妈身材矮小，只有 5 英尺 2 英寸。
And this guy was kind of a ruddy, older white man, who, if I had to bet, was maybe 60.
这个人是一位面色红润、年长的白人，如果我必须打赌的话，他可能有 60 岁。
For a second, I thought he might hit her or push her.
有那么一瞬间，我以为他可能会打她或者推她。
And I felt that kid feeling of seeing something happening in the world of grown ups that you have absolutely no power over.
我感觉到孩子们看到成年人的世界里发生了一些你绝对无法控制的事情。
My mom, she had this panicked look on her face as she tried to find a way out.
我妈妈，当她试图寻找出路时，她脸上露出惊慌的表情。
And that made me even more scared.
这让我更加害怕。
I also remember feeling, for the first time ever, that my mom was in danger, not the normal kid feeling that your parents are kind of an unshakable raft of security.
我还记得第一次感觉到我的妈妈处于危险之中，而不是像普通孩子那样感觉你的父母是不可动摇的安全筏。
I told my son this story last week.
上周我给我儿子讲了这个故事。
He's seven, the same age I was when this happened.
他七岁，和事情发生时我同龄。
And when I told him, the fear we felt was the thing I left out-- how menacing it was, how scared we were.
当我告诉他时，我忽略了我们所感受到的恐惧——它是多么的险恶，我们是多么的害怕。
I'm not sure how long this moment in the parking lot went before a young guy, who worked at the store, who'd been in the parking lot gathering carts, was suddenly nearby.
我不确定停车场里的这一刻过了多久，一个在商店工作的年轻人突然出现在附近，他一直在停车场收集手推车。
He was smaller than the guy and built like a teenager, but he said loudly to the guy, "Leave her alone." And then it was just kind of over.
他比那家伙矮小，身材也像个十几岁的孩子，但他大声对那家伙说：“别打扰她。”然后一切就结束了。
This was the first time I realized that someone could do this, that my mother's right to belong was somehow different.
这是我第一次意识到有人可以做到这一点，我母亲的归属权在某种程度上是不同的。
That because she looks the way she looks, and I look the way I look, it was an invisible trap door always under us-- a question about whether we belonged as much as others, which itself was a statement that we hadn't totally belonged in the first place.
因为她看起来就是她看起来的样子，而我看起来就是我看起来的样子，所以我们下面总是有一扇看不见的活板门——一个关于我们是否和其他人一样有归属感的问题，这本身就是一个声明，表明我们从一开始就没有完全归属。
This has never been a story I've told all that much.
我从来没有讲过这么多的故事。
Like, I never thought it was something that would have any kind of contemporary resonance, in part because I considered it a remnant of something on the wane.
就像，我从来没有想过它会引起当代的共鸣，部分原因是我认为它是一种正在衰落的东西的残余。
That the sentiment of that man, even if it was out there, it was shrinking toward some horizon.
那个人的情绪，即使在外面，也正在向某个地平线收缩。
For that matter, I never thought the meaning of this story would feel complicated.
就这一点而言，我从未想过这个故事的意义会让人感到复杂。
If anything, it was pat.
如果有的话，那就是拍拍。
It was the stuff of after school specials and teachers saying the country wasn't a melting pot, it was a stew pot.
这是课后特别节目的内容，老师们说这个国家不是一个熔炉，而是一个炖锅。
It was fine for those things, but not very interesting otherwise.
对于这些事情来说这很好，但除此之外就不是很有趣了。
And I never thought I'd be wrong about that until now.
直到现在我才认为我的想法是错的。
Now for obvious reasons, I've been thinking about this a lot, in part because those congresswomen don't look unlike my mom did when she was in her 30s, and the guy did not look unlike the president.
现在，出于显而易见的原因，我一直在思考这个问题，部分原因是那些国会女议员看起来不像我妈妈 30 多岁时的样子，而那个家伙看起来也不像总统。
I never once thought, in the last 30 whatever years, that this story would ever be a political one.
我从来没有想过，在过去 30 年里，这个故事会成为一个政治故事。
I'm surprised that it is.
我很惊讶确实如此。
And I'm surprised how it is.
我很惊讶它是怎样的。
I never once thought that people might hear this and put me on one side or the other of anything.
我从来没有想过人们可能会听到这个并把我放在任何事情的一边或另一边。
I never would have thought that was even possible.
我从来没想过这是可能的。
But aside from the big things I didn't anticipate, I want to leave you with what might be the smallest.
但除了我没有预料到的大事之外，我想给你们留下一些可能是最小的事情。
When I decided to tell this story, I called my mom to check my memory.
当我决定讲这个故事时，我打电话给妈妈检查我的记忆。
When we talked, all the details were where I thought they were.
当我们交谈时，所有的细节都在我的想象中。
Everything matched.
一切都匹配。
But she also told me something I didn't know.
但她也告诉了我一些我不知道的事情。
See, that grocery store, the Sentry store at the corner of 71st and Lisbon, it's still her grocery store.
看，那家杂货店，71 街和里斯本街角的 Sentry 店，仍然是她的杂货店。
She's been shopping there for years.
她多年来一直在那里购物。
But she told me, maybe five years ago, before any of these big national developments, that she went in one day and she asked to talk to the owner.
但她告诉我，也许五年前，在任何这些重大国家发展之前，有一天她进去并要求与业主交谈。
She did that because she wanted to tell him this story decades after it happened.
她这样做是因为她想在事情发生几十年后告诉他这个故事。
Because whoever that clerk was, he'd seen what that man was doing, and he'd stepped in.
因为无论那个职员是谁，他都看到了那个人在做什么，然后他就介入了。
She didn't know who he was or think the owner would know, but she wanted someone to know how grateful she still is.
她不知道他是谁，也不认为主人会知道，但她希望有人知道她仍然很感激。
I am, too.
我也是。
Ben Calhoun is one of the producers of our show.
本·卡尔霍恩是我们节目的制片人之一。
[MUSIC - EDITH FROST, "IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE WORDS"]
[音乐 - 伊迪丝·弗罗斯特，“如果不是为了文字”]
Our program was produced today by Sean Cole and Bim Adewunmi with help from Nadia Reiman.
今天我们的节目由 Sean Cole 和 Bim Adewunmi 在 Nadia Reiman 的帮助下制作。
The people who put this show together today include Elna Baker, Emanuele Berry, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Damien Grave, Jessica Lussenhop, Stowe Nelson, Catherine Raimondo, Ben Phelan, Tracy [INAUDIBLE], Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Svetala, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
今天制作这个节目的人包括 Elna Baker、Emanuele Berry、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Damien Grave、Jessica Lussenhop、Stowe Nelson、Catherine Raimondo、Ben Phelan、Tracy [听不清]、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Svetala、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy厄普代克。
Our managing editor is Diane Wu.
我们的总编辑是 Diane Wu。
Our executive editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks to David Judy Meltzer, Bishop Gene Robinson, Dr. Barry Holtz, Deborah Moore, Hamza Syed, Ahmed Ali Akbar, Zainab Shah, Khalid Latif, Hannah Jewell, Ben Zimmer, Karl Baker, and Tom Howell.
特别感谢 David Judy Meltzer、Bishop Gene Robinson、Barry Holtz 博士、Deborah Moore、Hamza Syed、Ahmed Ali Akbar、Zainab Shah、Khalid Latif、Hannah Jewell、Ben Zimmer、Karl Baker 和 Tom Howell。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 675 episodes, news, videos, and lists of favorites, and tons of other stuff there.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中流式传输我们的超过 675 集剧集、新闻、视频、收藏夹列表以及大量其他内容的存档。
Or get our app, which has all that stuff and also lets you download as many episodes as you want.
或者获取我们的应用程序，它拥有所有这些内容，还可以让您下载任意数量的剧集。
Again, thisamericanlife.org.
再说一次，thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He just saw the film Cool Runnings last week, and he wondered, is that a documentary?
他上周刚看了电影《酷跑》，他想知道这是一部纪录片吗？
Really, the first thing I did was send it to every Jamaican I knew.
真的，我做的第一件事就是把它发送给我认识的每一个牙买加人。
And be like, yo, so what do you think about this?
就像，哟，你对此有何看法？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - EDITH FROST, "IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE WORDS"]
[音乐 - 伊迪丝·弗罗斯特，“如果不是为了文字”]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。