68: Lincoln's Second Inaugural - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #68 | July 4, 1997 68: Lincoln's Second Inaugural Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 68 集 | 1997 年 7 月 4 日 68：林肯第二次就职演说：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥和国际公共广播电台的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our story today begins in 1865 and ends this year, today.
我们今天的故事从1865年开始，到今年今天结束。
The moment in 1865 where we start is on March 4, the day Abraham Lincoln delivered his second inaugural address.
我们从 1865 年的 3 月 4 日开始，这一天亚伯拉罕·林肯发表了第二次就职演说。
I don't know if you've ever read this speech, but it's this incredible document, just four paragraphs long.
我不知道你是否读过这篇演讲，但这是一份令人难以置信的文件，只有四段长。
At the time that he delivered this, the Civil War was ending, over a half million Americans dead.
当他发表此言论时，内战即将结束，超过 50 万美国人死亡。
And Lincoln uses the speech to ponder the question, why have we been visited with this war.
林肯利用这次演讲来思考这个问题：为什么我们会遭遇这场战争。
Here are his words.
这是他的话。
"Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude or the duration, which it already has attained.
“双方都没有预料到战争的规模或持续时间，但它已经达到了这样的程度。
Each looked for an easier triumph and a result less fundamental and astounding.
每个人都希望获得更容易的胜利，而不是那么根本性和令人震惊的结果。
Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God.
两人读同一本圣经，向同一位上帝祈祷。
And each invokes his aid against the other.
双方都援引自己的援助来对抗对方。
The Almighty has his own purposes."
全能者有他自己的目的。”
And at this point in the speech, Lincoln posits this incredible image that slavery is a kind of original sin on this continent, an original sin for which all Americans must pay.
在演讲的这一点上，林肯提出了这样一个令人难以置信的形象：奴隶制是这个大陆的一种原罪，所有美国人都必须为此付出代价。
He says, "Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away.
他说：“我们衷心希望、热切祈祷这场巨大的战争祸害能够迅速结束。
Yet if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's 250 years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with a lash shall be paid with another drawn with a sword, as was said 3,000 years ago, so still it must be said, 'The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.' With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we're in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and a lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
然而，如果上帝希望这种情况继续下去，直到奴隶250年无回报的辛劳所积累的所有财富都被沉没，直到用鞭子抽出的每一滴血都将用用剑抽出的每一滴血来偿还，正如3000年前所说的那样，那么我们仍然必须说，“主的审判是真实而公义的”。怀着对任何人的恶意，对所有人的仁慈，对正义的坚定，正如上帝让我们看到正义一样，让我们努力完成我们正在从事的工作，包扎国家的伤口，照顾将要参加战斗的人，以及他的遗孀和孤儿，尽一切努力实现和珍惜我们之间以及与所有国家之间的公正和持久的和平。”
Well, today on our program on this Fourth of July weekend, we raise this question.
好吧，今天在我们的七月四日周末节目中，我们提出了这个问题。
How're we doing absolving ourselves of our original sin?
我们怎样才能免除自己的原罪呢？
To answer that, let's fast forward to the 1990s.
为了回答这个问题，让我们快进到 20 世纪 90 年代。
You hear how I'm talking now?
你听到我现在怎么说了吗？
I don't talk like this when I'm around my friends who don't speak like this.
当我周围的朋友不这样说话时，我不会这样说话。
When I go to a school like this, everyone is speaking like this.
当我去这样的学校时，每个人都这样说话。
So I have to do my best to blend in, which I kind of do pretty good.
所以我必须尽我最大的努力融入其中，我做得很好。
I pretty much have everybody thrown off about me.
我几乎让每个人都对我感到厌烦。
They pretty much know nothing of where I come from.
他们几乎不知道我来自哪里。
This is Eliyahu Miller.
这是埃利亚胡·米勒。
When I recorded this, he was a sophomore at a Chicago high school named for Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Park, in a rich neighborhood in Chicago's mostly white North Side.
当我录制这段视频时，他是芝加哥一所以亚伯拉罕·林肯命名的高中的二年级学生，林肯公园位于芝加哥以白人为主的北区的一个富裕社区。
Eliyahu rode the bus for nearly an hour a day to get there from his home in a neighborhood on Chicago's mostly black, mostly segregated South Side.
埃利亚胡每天乘坐公共汽车近一个小时从他的家到达那里，他的家位于芝加哥南区一个以黑人为主、种族隔离的社区。
One measure of how far we have to go in healing the wounds of the past is the distance Eliyahu had to go between home and school.
衡量我们在治愈过去的创伤方面需要走多远的一个标准是，以利亚胡从家到学校之间必须走多远的距离。
It is hard on a person to come to Lincoln Park.
一个人来到林肯公园是很难的。
And your friends, they have $50 in change and then some.
还有你的朋友，他们有 50 美元的零钱，还有一些。
And they have these expensive things.
他们有这些昂贵的东西。
And then you go home, and you're slapped in the face by reality.
然后你回到家，你就被现实打脸了。
That's why I spend so much time at school.
这就是为什么我花了这么多时间在学校。
I hate to go home.
我讨厌回家。
As for me, my whole life, I haven't been prejudiced.
至于我，我一生都没有受到过偏见。
And up until this year, I've been totally free of all prejudice.
直到今年，我已经完全摆脱了所有偏见。
But it's just gotten to the point where I can't hold it back anymore.
但事已至此，我已经无法再忍下去了。
This is Chris, a senior at Lincoln Park the year I interviewed him.
这是克里斯，我采访他的那一年，他是林肯公园的一名大四学生。
America's biggest experiment in integration, integrated schools, left Chris intolerant mostly because of tense, little interactions he used to have all the time with black students.
美国最大的融合实验——融合学校，让克里斯无法容忍，主要是因为他过去与黑人学生的互动一直很紧张、很少。
Some of them were his fault, he said.
他说，其中一些是他的错。
Some theirs.
有些是他们的。
There was an incident recently where I was trying to go out of a door that someone was standing halfway in, halfway out.
最近发生了一件事情，我正试图走出一扇门，有人站在半里半外。
Said, "Excuse me." So I went through.
说：“对不起。”所以我就经历了。
Guy started saying, "All these doors and you had to go through this one." I said, "That's right.
盖伊开始说：“所有这些门，你都必须穿过这一扇。”我说：“是的。
Yeah." So he starts saying, "You better keep walking, white boy.
是的。”于是他开始说：“你最好继续走，白人男孩。
I'm going to beat your ass," and all this.
我要打你的屁股，”以及这一切。
I just stopped and said, "Excuse me?" And he said, "You heard me.
我只是停下来说：“对不起？”他说：“你听到我说的了。
I'm gonna--" and just wanted to get into it.
我要——”并且只是想参与其中。
And I just basically blew it off.
我基本上把它搞砸了。
And then it continued.
然后它继续。
I went to class.
我去上课了。
I came out.
我出来了。
And a whole bunch of people surrounded me, "This is the one.
一大群人围住了我，“就是这个了。
This is the one." And I'm just standing there like, "What?"
就是这个。”我只是站在那里，“什么？”
And then one of them said, "Yeah, he called this student a nigger" and all this.
然后其中一个人说，“是的，他称这个学生为黑鬼”等等。
And I said, "Hold it.
我说：“坚持住。
I didn't say any of that."
我什么也没说。”
It seems at one point the whites were at a higher level than the blacks as far as social standards are concerned.
就社会标准而言，白人似乎一度比黑人处于更高的水平。
Now rather than it being equal, I think-- in a black's mind, I'm speaking-- in a black's mind, the blacks are much higher than the whites.
现在，我认为——在黑人的心目中，我是说——在黑人的心目中，黑人比白人高得多，而不是平等。
And they're band together.
他们团结在一起。
And they're not going to accept any whites in that band.
他们不会接受该乐队中的任何白人。
There's still just a lot of resentment from that '50s, '60s slavery, whatever, times.
人们仍然对 50 年代、60 年代奴隶制等时代怀有很多怨恨。
But if you look at history, how long things have been, as far as slavery, how long did that go on for, how long did it take before it ended?
但如果你看看历史，事情已经持续了多久，就奴隶制而言，持续了多长时间，花了多长时间才结束？
So how long is it going to take before blacks and whites can get along as well as blacks and blacks and whites and whites do?
那么，黑人和白人要花多长时间才能像黑人与黑人、白人与白人那样和睦相处呢？
Well, today on our program, four attempts at answering that question.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，有四次尝试回答这个问题。
Act One, Another Politician Has God And The confederate Flag.
第一幕，另一位政治家拥有上帝和同盟旗帜。
Act Two, Nelson Mandela and Abraham Lincoln.
第二幕，纳尔逊·曼德拉和亚伯拉罕·林肯。
Act Three, Good Blacks and Bad Blacks.
第三幕，好黑人和坏黑人。
A story by New Yorker writer Malcolm Gladwell.
《纽约客》作家马尔科姆·格拉德威尔的故事。
Act Four, Racial Cheerleaders.
第四幕，种族啦啦队。
A story about somebody whose attitude about race did change.
一个关于一个人对种族的态度确实发生了变化的故事。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, a modern politician, his god, and the Confederate flag.
第一幕，一位现代政治家、他的上帝和南方邦联旗帜。
Well, not long ago, a governor of a southern state made his own attempt at binding up the nation's wounds and achieving a lasting peace among ourselves.
不久前，南方一个州的一位州长做出了自己的尝试，试图包扎国家的伤口，实现我们之间的持久和平。
And frankly, it has not gone too well for him.
坦率地说，这对他来说进展不太顺利。
The governor was David Beasley of South Carolina.
州长是南卡罗来纳州的大卫·比斯利。
His state is a good place to examine how well the wounds of the Civil War are healing.
他的州是检查内战创伤愈合情况的好地方。
It is the only state in the Union that flies the Confederate flag over its state House
它是联邦中唯一一个在州议会大厦上方悬挂邦联旗帜的州
Our contributing editor, Jack Hitt, is from South Carolina.
我们的特约编辑杰克·希特来自南卡罗来纳州。
And this past Thanksgiving, he watched the television address where Governor David Beasley proposed that they remove the flag from the statehouse flag pole.
去年感恩节，他观看了电视讲话，州长大卫·比斯利提议将州议会大厦旗杆上的国旗撤掉。
The governor of the state, he's a Christian coalition candidate, one of the few who actually won high office in the elections of '94.
作为该州州长，他是一名基督教联盟候选人，是少数在 94 年选举中真正赢得高级职位的人之一。
So Beasley took control of the governor's mansion.
于是比斯利控制了州长官邸。
And not long after that, a number of different things happened.
不久之后，发生了一些不同的事情。
Some churches were burned.
一些教堂被烧毁。
There were some drive-by shootings both of blacks and of whites by people of the other race.
发生过一些其他种族的人驾车枪击黑人和白人的事件。
And tensions got very, very high.
紧张局势变得非常非常高。
And Beasley is a good, decent man actually.
比斯利实际上是一个善良、正派的人。
One of the things that I've tried to explain to people when I've written about him is that it's a mistake to think that everybody in the Christian coalition is like Ralph Reed, i.e., a slick, media-wise, focus-group-opinionated, Washington-lobbyist insider.
当我写关于他的文章时，我试图向人们解释的一件事是，认为基督教联盟中的每个人都像拉尔夫·里德一样是错误的，即一个狡猾的、媒体明智的、焦点小组意见的、华盛顿游说的内部人士。
At one point, I remember you described Ralph Reed as being "sincerity challenged."
我记得有一次，您将拉尔夫·里德描述为“真诚受到挑战”。
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
And the irony of that is that most of the people that I know in the Christian coalition in South Carolina are, in fact, deeply sentimental about the efforts to bring equality to the races in the state and the whole civil rights effort.
具有讽刺意味的是，我在南卡罗来纳州基督教联盟中认识的大多数人实际上对该州实现种族平等的努力以及整个民权努力深感伤感。
And in a funny way, this is going to be Beasley's downfall.
有趣的是，这将是比斯利的垮台。
Because what he did after these various shootings and other acts of violence was decide that the Christian thing to do was to take down the Confederate flag from the statehouse.
因为在这些枪击事件和其他暴力行为之后，他所做的就是决定基督徒要做的就是从州议会大厦上取下南方联盟的旗帜。
In other words, it actually was a change of heart, and there was not much political advantage in it for him?
也就是说，其实是变心了，这对他来说并没有多少政治上的好处？
He stood not to gain politically from this move?
他不会从这一举动中获得政治利益吗？
I have asked everyone I know in South Carolina, "What would be the political advantage of a Republican bringing down the Confederate flag?" And there is none.
我问过我在南卡罗来纳州认识的每个人，“共和党人放下邦联旗帜有什么政治优势？”但没有。
It might be one of the few cases in American politics right now when the politician said, "I went, and I prayed.
这可能是目前美国政治中为数不多的案例之一，政客说：“我去了，我祈祷了。
And I've decided to take down this flag," that that is, in fact, what happened.
我决定摘下这面旗帜”，事实上，这就是发生的事情。
Well, good for him.
嗯，对他有好处。
Jack Hitt So he wins no points in his own party.
杰克·希特 所以他在自己的政党中没有赢得任何分数。
It'll be so costly that I feel certain he will be thrown out of office at the next election.
代价如此之大，我确信他将在下次选举中被赶下台。
He comes on television, and what was really-- I'm sitting there with my entire family.
他出现在电视上，而实际上——我和我的全家坐在那儿。
We were all watching this.
我们都在看着这一切。
And everybody in the state is clearly watching this.
该州的每个人显然都在关注这一点。
It's on all the channels.
所有频道都有。
It's been talked about in the papers for days.
这几天报纸上都在谈论这件事。
The governor's going to address the state.
州长将向州政府发表讲话。
And the two rebuttal arguments put forward are by other Republicans.
而提出的两个反驳论点都是其他共和党人提出的。
No Democrats spoke.
没有民主党人发言。
No black person spoke.
没有黑人说话。
And the other two people who spoke, Glenn McConnell, a local state assemblyman from Charleston, and Charles Condon, the Attorney General, clearly have their eyes on the Governor's chair, especially Condon.
而另外两个发言者，查尔斯顿当地州议员格伦·麦康奈尔和司法部长查尔斯·康登，显然都把目光投向了州长的椅子，尤其是康登。
But what was amazing about Beasley's argument for taking it down and Condon's argument for keeping it up is that they both manage to stake out rather nuanced positions about the meaning of symbols in contemporary American culture.
但比斯利关于取消它的论点和康登关于保留它的论点的令人惊奇之处在于，他们都设法对当代美国文化中的象征意义提出了相当微妙的立场。
It was strange, as I sat there listening to the Governor talking about how meaning works.
当我坐在那里听州长谈论意义是如何运作时，这很奇怪。
And as you know, there is an entire academic discipline devoted to how we interpret signs.
如您所知，有一门完整的学科专门研究我们如何解释符号。
Right.
正确的。
And this is the field called semiotics, a sort of very arcane, in a certain way, academic discipline, which has swept across academia in this country in the last 15 years.
这就是所谓的符号学领域，从某种程度上来说，它是一种非常神秘的学科，在过去 15 年里席卷了这个国家的学术界。
Frankly, not the kind of thing which appears in our American political debate very often.
坦率地说，这并不是我们美国政治辩论中经常出现的事情。
Not very often.
不经常。
Ira Glass In fact, you've written about this.
Ira Glass：事实上，您已经写过有关此的文章。
I'm going to read from your writing.
我要读你写的文章。
You say, "The speeches themselves were novel for their departure from the debate's old terms, flag is evil, flag is not evil.
你说，“演讲本身很新颖，因为它们偏离了辩论的旧术语，即旗帜是邪恶的，旗帜不是邪恶的。
Rather, these speakers put forward nuanced arguments of semiotics, the science of symbols.
相反，这些演讲者提出了符号学（符号科学）的细致入微的论点。
And I don't mean they argued that the flag debate signified other issues beyond race.
我并不是说他们认为国旗辩论还意味着种族之外的其他问题。
No, I meant that they were actually arguing semiotic theory."
不，我的意思是他们实际上是在争论符号学理论。”
Yeah, let me just read you the-- this is Beasley talking, as he's explaining why we should take the flag down.
是的，让我给你们读一下——这是比斯利的讲话，他正在解释为什么我们应该把国旗降下来。
He says, this is a quote, "You see the Confederate flag flying above the statehouse flies in a vacuum.
他说，这是一句话，“你会看到在州议会大厦上方飘扬的邦联旗帜在真空中飘扬。
Its meaning and purpose are not defined by law.
其含义和目的并未由法律定义。
Because of this, any group can give the flag any meaning it chooses.
正因为如此，任何团体都可以赋予旗帜其选择的任何含义。
The Klan can misuse it as a racist tool, as it has.
三K党可能会滥用它作为种族主义工具，事实也确实如此。
And others can misuse it solely as a symbol for racism, as they have."
其他人可能会滥用它作为种族主义的象征，就像他们所做的那样。”
And so he's basically articulating what is the central tenet of modern semiotic theory which is that you have this object, a flag, and any meaning can attach to it.
因此，他基本上阐明了现代符号学理论的中心原则，即你拥有这个物体，一面旗帜，并且可以附加任何意义。
Right.
正确的。
But then what was amazing is that the other people who were refuting him or rebutting him basically delved into the same kind of theory.
但令人惊奇的是，其他反驳他或反驳他的人基本上都在钻研同一种理论。
For example, here is Glenn McConnell, a state Senator from Charleston talking about the flag.
例如，查尔斯顿州参议员格伦·麦康奈尔正在谈论国旗。
He says, quote, "We are told this flag lacks definition and must be moved to define it.
他引用他的话说：“我们被告知这面旗帜缺乏定义，必须进行移动来定义它。
But the flag was defined years ago on a monument on the statehouse grounds, which says that in the hopelessness of the hospitals, the despair of defeat, and the short, sharp agony of struggle, these South Carolinians who answered the call of their state did so in the consolation of the belief that, here at home, they would not be forgotten."
但这面旗帜是多年前在州议会大厦的一座纪念碑上定义的，纪念碑上写着，在医院的绝望、失败的绝望和斗争的短暂而剧烈的痛苦中，这些响应州号召的南卡罗来纳州人这样做是为了安慰他们相信，在家乡，他们不会被忘记。”
In other words, the flag has a meaning, and that meaning is stable.
换句话说，旗帜是有含义的，而且这个含义是稳定的。
That meaning is stable.
这个意义是稳定的。
Ira Glass In other words, if the flag means honor, it's always going to mean honor.
Ira Glass 换句话说，如果国旗意味着荣誉，它就永远意味着荣誉。
Other people can try to attach what they want, and it'll still mean that.
其他人可以尝试附加他们想要的东西，但它仍然意味着这一点。
And it doesn't do any good.
而且这没有任何好处。
It's a very strong point of view in the South and especially in South Carolina.
在南方，尤其是在南卡罗来纳州，这是一个非常强烈的观点。
This is why I'm saying that I think Beasley has sort of wounded himself fatally.
这就是为什么我说我认为比斯利对自己造成了致命的伤害。
One of the things that I find most interesting about this in light of Lincoln's second inaugural is that the second inaugural is essentially a Christian document.
鉴于林肯的第二次就职演说，我发现最有趣的一件事是，第二次就职演说本质上是一份基督教文件。
It's both a political document, and it's a document arguing about faith.
它既是一份政治文件，也是一份争论信仰的文件。
What are we to make of this as people who believe in God?
作为信神的人，我们该如何看待这件事呢？
The fact that the war happened and so many people have died.
事实是战争发生了，很多人都死了。
And it's interesting that Beasley would also, basically, come to this conclusion that we need to heal, the same conclusion that Lincoln comes to, as an act of faith.
有趣的是，比斯利基本上也会得出我们需要治愈的结论，这与林肯得出的结论相同，作为一种信仰的行为。
Right.
正确的。
Well, I understand his thinking.
嗯，我理解他的想法。
And he came very close to pulling it off.
他非常接近成功。
If you appeal to the Christian sentimentality in South Carolina for good race relations, you have enormous support.
如果你呼吁南卡罗来纳州的基督徒多愁善感，建立良好的种族关系，你就会得到巨大的支持。
Because most of these people, they don't want this antagonism, and they don't want the kind of bad feelings between the races publicly.
因为这些人中的大多数，他们不想要这种对立，他们不想要公开种族之间的那种不好的感情。
Privately-- and this goes right to the heart of, I think, not just the South's, but America's ambiguity on race-- which is that the same heart that can get very weepy and sentimental about rebuilding black churches can also get infuriated with black leaders talking about how we need more affirmative action.
私下里——我认为，这不仅触及南方，也触及美国在种族问题上模糊性的核心——这颗心可能会对重建黑人教堂感到非常哭泣和感伤，也可能会对黑人领袖谈论我们如何需要更多的平权行动感到愤怒。
So Jack, I know that you have your own modest proposal on how opponents of the Confederate flag flying over the statehouse might be able to actually get the flag off the statehouse.
所以杰克，我知道你有自己的温和建议，关于反对在州议会大厦上空飘扬邦联旗帜的人如何能够真正将旗帜从州议会大厦上取下来。
Well, yes, I do.
嗯，是的，我愿意。
Ira Glass And it, in fact, is based on semiotic theory.
Ira Glass 事实上，它是基于符号学理论的。
It is based on semiotic theory.
它以符号学理论为基础。
I think the remedy would be for blacks in South Carolina to start flying the Confederate flag.
我认为补救办法是让南卡罗来纳州的黑人开始悬挂南方联盟旗帜。
Adopt the Stars and Bars as their symbol.
采用星形和条形作为其标志。
Adopt the Stars and Bars as the symbol of the New South.
采用星条旗作为新南方的象征。
In our culture, especially, where signs and symbols can turn over so quickly, it's very easy to do what none of these guys on television were proposing, which is add even more meaning to that symbol.
特别是在我们的文化中，标志和符号可以如此迅速地转变，很容易做电视上这些人没有提议的事情，这为该符号增添了更多意义。
That's the only way you can actually alter a symbol's meaning.
这是真正改变符号含义的唯一方法。
Even if you took the flag down, its power would remain.
即使你把旗帜拿下来，它的力量仍然存在。
Its power, whether it was in a windshield or on somebody's front lawn, would still remain.
无论是在挡风玻璃上还是在某人家前的草坪上，它的力量仍然存在。
I would love to see baseball caps with Malcolm X, X is sort of rejiggered into the Stars and Bars configuration, or the Confederate flag washed with a little African liberation colors.
我很想看到带有 Malcolm X 的棒球帽，X 被重新调整为星条形配置，或者用一点非洲解放颜色清洗的南部邦联旗帜。
And only blacks in South Carolina could possibly pull this off.
只有南卡罗来纳州的黑人才有可能实现这一目标。
And my further prediction is is that if this did happen, if blacks did start wearing it on their T-shirts, and on their cars, and on their coats, and flying it in their front lawns or whatever, that the first group to rush to the state capital and insist that the Stars and Bars be lowered would be the Daughters of the Confederate Veterans, so enraged they would be that they symbol's true meaning was being altered.
我进一步的预测是，如果这种情况真的发生了，如果黑人真的开始把它穿在他们的T恤上、汽车上、外套上，并在他们家前的草坪或其他什么地方悬挂它，那么第一个冲到州首府并坚持要求降下星条旗的团体将是南部邦联退伍军人的女儿们，他们会因为自己的象征的真正含义被改变而感到非常愤怒。
But in a certain way, looked at at the distance of a century and a quarter after Lincoln, how are we to view this entire debate?
但从某种角度来看，距离林肯去世一个又四分之一世纪的时间，我们该如何看待这整场辩论呢？
I don't know.
我不知道。
On the one hand, it seemed to me so many of the truly meaningful acts of integration have been accomplished.
一方面，在我看来，许多真正有意义的整合行动已经完成。
In a way, it's the kind of fight you would have after you've done all the hard work.
在某种程度上，这是你在完成所有艰苦工作后所进行的那种战斗。
We're really arguing, almost literally, about window dressing.
我们确实在争论，几乎是字面意义上的，关于装饰门面的问题。
But I have to say, there's another way to look at this debate.
但我不得不说，还有另一种方式来看待这场辩论。
And that is that the fact that this is what's being debated about race relations and the place of blacks and whites together in society, if this is what's being debated, that means that there are all these other things which we have not solved, which are never discussed with the same fervor and political heat.
事实上，这就是关于种族关系以及黑人和白人在社会中的地位的争论，如果这就是争论的内容，那就意味着还有所有其他问题我们尚未解决，这些问题从未以同样的热情和政治热度进行讨论。
You're saying the governor of South Carolina is going to lose his governorship over this symbolic question of whether to fly a flag.
你说南卡罗来纳州州长将因是否悬挂国旗这一象征性问题而失去州长职位。
He is not losing his governorship over whether black children are educated as well as white children.
他不会因为黑人儿童是否和白人儿童一样接受教育而失去州长职位。
Jack Hitt's a magazine writer and a contributing editor here at This American Life.
杰克·希特是一位杂志作家，也是《美国生活》的特约编辑。
After he published his idea that blacks adopt the Stars and Bars, he discovered that two black entrepreneurs in South Carolina have a company called NuSouth that's trying to do exactly that.
在他发表了黑人采用星条旗的想法后，他发现南卡罗来纳州的两位黑人企业家拥有一家名为 NuSouth 的公司，该公司正试图做到这一点。
These two guys, Sherman Evans and Angel Quintero, have a full line of clothing that feature the Confederate flag rendered in the colors of African liberation, red, black, and green.
谢尔曼·埃文斯 (Sherman Evans) 和安吉尔·金特罗 (Angel Quintero) 这两个家伙的全系列服装均以非洲解放的红色、黑色和绿色等颜色呈现南部邦联旗帜。
They have a store on Main Street in downtown Charleston.
他们在查尔斯顿市中心的大街上有一家商店。
They hope to expand to all 13 original colonies.
他们希望扩展到所有 13 个原始殖民地。
Realistically, we all know that the Confederate flag is the negative enemy.
实际上，我们都知道南部邦联旗帜是负面的敌人。
And the creation of a New South flag is kind of an act that don't move.
新南方旗帜的制作是一种不动的行为。
We figured it's like the oppressor's worst insult, where we take that, and we wear it with pride.
我们认为这就像对压迫者最严重的侮辱，我们对此感到自豪，并自豪地接受它。
It's kind of like a strategy whereby you go right into the feared thing, and you claim it.
这有点像一种策略，你直接进入令人恐惧的事物，然后你声称它。
Do they have a website?
他们有网站吗？
Well, of course.
嗯，当然。
www.nusouth-- spelled N-U-S-O-U-T-H-- dot.
www.nusouth——拼写为 N-U-S-O-U-T-H——点。
com.
com.
Act Two, Nelson Mandela and Abraham Lincoln.
第二幕，纳尔逊·曼德拉和亚伯拉罕·林肯。
What to do with the symbols of a white supremacist past?
如何处理白人至上主义过去的象征？
Well, after the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln did not ban the Confederacy's national anthem "Dixie." Instead, he had it played on the White House lawn, saying, in effect, we're all one nation, this song is all of ours.
嗯，内战结束后，亚伯拉罕·林肯并没有禁止南方邦联的国歌“迪克西”。相反，他在白宫草坪上播放了这首歌，说，实际上，我们都是一个国家，这首歌是我们所有人的。
It's a strategy, I think, Nelson Mandela would understand.
我认为纳尔逊·曼德拉会理解这是一种策略。
In fact, that story about Lincoln and Jack Hitt's story about South Carolina reminded me of a story that I had been told by a friend of mine named John Matisonn.
事实上，关于林肯的故事和杰克·希特关于南卡罗来纳州的故事让我想起了我的一个名叫约翰·马蒂森的朋友给我讲的一个故事。
John is from South Africa.
约翰来自南非。
During apartheid, he was the chief political correspondent at the leading opposition newspaper, The Rand Daily Mail.
在种族隔离期间，他是主要反对派报纸《兰德每日邮报》的首席政治记者。
For a while, he was National Public Radio's correspondent in South Africa, which is how I know him.
有一段时间，他曾担任国家公共广播电台驻南非的记者，这就是我认识他的方式。
When Nelson Mandela was released from prison, John was the reporter given the honor of asking Mandela the first question at his very first press conference.
当纳尔逊·曼德拉出狱时，约翰是一位有幸在曼德拉第一次新闻发布会上向他提出第一个问题的记者。
Now he's a member of Mandela's government.
现在他是曼德拉政府的成员。
And a few years ago, he told me about the Springboks.
几年前，他告诉我有关跳羚队的事情。
The Springboks are a rugby team.
跳羚队是一支橄榄球队。
Under apartheid, rugby was the favorite game of South African whites.
在种族隔离制度下，橄榄球是南非白人最喜欢的运动。
Now for blacks, the favorite game, the national game, was soccer.
现在对于黑人来说，最喜欢的运动、全国性的运动是足球。
But for whites, it was rugby.
但对于白人来说，那就是橄榄球。
And the Springboks were the national team, the team that would go to the international competitions, things like that.
跳羚队是国家队，是参加国际比赛之类的球队。
And it was all white or almost all white, with one or two black players.
全是白人或几乎全是白人，只有一两个黑人球员。
The Springboks were seen as a symbol of white South Africa and apartheid.
跳羚被视为南非白人和种族隔离的象征。
When Nelson Mandela's party, the African National Congress, came to power, there was this big debate over whether to get rid of the team's name and its logo.
当纳尔逊·曼德拉（Nelson Mandela）领导的非洲人国民大会党（African National Conference）上台时，关于是否废除该队的名称和标志引发了一场大辩论。
A springbok is like-- it's like a deer.
跳羚就像——它就像一只鹿。
And just like the flag debate in South Carolina, John Matisonn says, the debate got very emotional.
约翰·马蒂森说，就像南卡罗来纳州的国旗辩论一样，辩论变得非常情绪化。
And I would have to say that most people in the ANC camp would have argued strongly that the Springbok cannot be retained.
我不得不说，非国大阵营中的大多数人都会强烈认为不能保留跳羚。
It's too toxic a symbol.
这符号太毒了
It had to be removed and replaced with something else.
它必须被移除并用其他东西替换。
And there was even discussion about alternatives.
甚至还讨论了替代方案。
And the plan was that a decision was going to be taken after the World Cup.
计划是在世界杯之后做出决定。
During apartheid, international sanctions had kept South Africa out of the World Cup.
在种族隔离期间，国际制裁使南非无法参加世界杯。
And so at the first World Cup game of the post-apartheid era, a game hosted by South Africa, Nelson Mandela settled this issue of the springbok symbol once and for all.
因此，在南非主办的后种族隔离时代的第一场世界杯比赛中，纳尔逊·曼德拉一劳永逸地解决了跳羚标志的问题。
Mandela walked out onto the field wearing a Springbok jersey with the number six, which was the same number as the captain.
曼德拉穿着跳羚队的6号球衣走上赛场，这与队长的号码相同。
And he walked out into the middle of the field, and he just wished them well and cheered.
他走到球场中央，祝愿他们一切顺利并欢呼。
And the crowd just roared.
人群只是咆哮。
And he wore a Springbok cap as well.
他还戴着一顶跳羚帽。
And then at the end of the game, South Africa won.
然后比赛结束，南非队获胜。
And he walked out onto the field, and he hugged the captain of the winning team.
他走到球场上，拥抱了获胜队的队长。
And so you had jersey number six hugging jersey number six, the captain of the rugby team and the captain of South Africa.
所以你有六号球衣拥抱六号球衣，橄榄球队队长和南非队队长。
If I remember right, back when it happened, you told me that grown men were crying in the stands.
如果我没记错的话，当事情发生时，你告诉我成年男子在看台上哭泣。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
It was very emotional.
这是非常感人的。
People had tears in their eyes.
人们眼里含着泪水。
And I think it had an amazing impact because black South Africans just adored it.
我认为它产生了惊人的影响，因为南非黑人非常喜欢它。
They adored him.
他们很崇拜他。
And white South Africans as well.
还有南非白人。
They adored the fact that he'd embraced all their symbols, and hadn't rejected them, and made a big fight about it, and turned it into something that could have, potentially at least, at a symbolic level, been ugly.
他们喜欢这样一个事实：他接受了他们所有的象征，没有拒绝它们，并为此进行了一场激烈的斗争，并将其变成了一种至少在象征层面上可能是丑陋的东西。
And at the same time, black South Africans said-- it had the effect of people saying, "Well, it's ours.
与此同时，南非黑人说——它的效果就像人们说：“好吧，这是我们的。
It's not their team anymore.
这已经不是他们的球队了。
It's our team."
这是我们的团队。”
And I think I told you the story that I was at a Christmas party-- our own Christmas party-- and nearly all our staff are black South Africans.
我想我告诉过你我在一个圣诞晚会上的故事——我们自己的圣诞晚会——几乎所有的员工都是南非黑人。
And half the black South Africans wore Springbok caps to the Christmas party, which if you're sort of seeped in local political folklore, as I am, it was just an amazing and very moving sight.
一半的南非黑人戴着跳羚帽参加圣诞晚会，如果你像我一样深入了解当地的政治民间传说，那真是一个令人惊奇且非常感人的景象。
And frankly, now it's just not an issue.
坦率地说，现在这不再是问题了。
It really isn't.
事实并非如此。
Nelson Mandela has systematically tried to diffuse the old symbols of apartheid, all of them, of their power.
纳尔逊·曼德拉（Nelson Mandela）系统地试图消除种族隔离的旧象征，所有这些象征都是其权力的象征。
He traveled to formerly all-white neighborhoods.
他去了以前全是白人的社区。
He made the old apartheid national anthem part of the new national anthem.
他使旧的种族隔离国歌成为新国歌的一部分。
At one point, Nelson Mandela held a lunch, and he invited the wives and the widows of all the prime ministers from during the apartheid era.
有一次，纳尔逊·曼德拉举办了一场午餐会，他邀请了种族隔离时期所有总理的妻子和遗孀。
And he also invited the wives and widows of all the black leaders from that era as well, including Steve Biko's widow.
他还邀请了那个时代所有黑人领袖的妻子和遗孀，包括史蒂夫·比科的遗孀。
And of course, you know that Steve Biko was killed in prison by policemen in support of the old government.
当然，你知道史蒂夫·比科在监狱里被支持旧政府的警察杀害。
And that was in the time under the premiership of John Vorster.
那是在约翰·沃斯特担任首相期间。
And Mrs. Vorster was there.
沃斯特夫人也在场。
John Vorster died some time ago.
约翰·沃斯特不久前去世了。
But Mrs. Vorster was there.
但沃斯特夫人在那儿。
And there was this remarkable scene, which was shown on television and reported in the newspapers, where they're all in the garden, sitting with these garden chairs.
电视上播放并报纸报道了这个非凡的场景，他们都在花园里，坐在这些花园椅子上。
And Mrs. Vorster sees Mrs. Biko looking for a place to sit.
沃斯特夫人看到比科夫人正在寻找座位。
And she sort of jumps up and offers her her seat.
她跳了起来，给她让座。
And as you know, John Vorster was really regarded as one of the worst authoritarian leaders.
如您所知，约翰·沃斯特确实被认为是最糟糕的独裁领导人之一。
He was minister of police at the same time he was prime minister.
他在担任总理的同时担任警察部长。
And Mandela went up to her, and he brought a chair.
曼德拉走到她面前，拿来一把椅子。
And she said, "No, no, no, let me give her my chair." And Mandela looked at her very sternly and wagged his finger at her and said, "Now Mrs. Vorster, you must sit down and do as I say.
她说：“不，不，不，让我把椅子给她吧。”曼德拉非常严厉地看着她，对她摇动手指说：“现在，沃斯特夫人，你必须坐下来，按照我说的做。
Otherwise, I'm going to be as authoritarian as your husband was." And everybody laughed quite uncomfortably, not quite sure what to make of it.
否则，我就会像你丈夫一样专制。”每个人都笑得很不舒服，不知道该怎么办。
But of course, the next thing, Mrs. Vorster did as she was told by the president.
当然，接下来的事情，沃斯特夫人就按照总统的吩咐去做了。
And she sat down.
她坐下了。
And Mrs. Biko sat down in the chair that Mandela brought for her.
比科夫人在曼德拉为她带来的椅子上坐下。
And they got into conversation.
他们开始交谈。
This actually leads to the thing I was going to ask you next, which was how important do you think these symbolic changes are in changing a nation?
这实际上引出了我接下来要问你的问题，即你认为这些象征性的变化对于改变一个国家有多重要？
How important are they versus, say, building houses and getting the economy working in a different way?
与建造房屋和以不同方式运行经济相比，它们有多重要？
Well, I must say, I, as a sort of a hard-bitten political journalist all my life, probably didn't take them as seriously as the government did.
好吧，我必须说，我作为一个一生都坚韧不拔的政治记者，可能没有像政府那样认真对待他们。
I looked at housing statistics, and educational changes, and budgets, and all those kind of things.
我研究了住房统计数据、教育变革、预算以及所有这些事情。
But I have to concede, I was wrong.
但我必须承认，我错了。
I failed to appreciate the importance of these symbols.
我没有意识到这些符号的重要性。
They've been extremely important.
它们非常重要。
I still meet black South African friends who surprise me by telling me about perhaps their less political family members who went, after these symbolic changes, went to parts of white Cape Town and white Johannesburg that they'd never been before.
我仍然会遇到南非黑人朋友，他们告诉我，也许他们政治色彩较少的家庭成员在这些象征性的变化之后去了白人开普敦和白人约翰内斯堡的部分地区，他们以前从未去过这些地方，这让我感到惊讶。
And frankly, they could have gone before because they were not actually legally prohibited for some time before that, but they'd never felt comfortable doing.
坦率地说，他们本来可以去的，因为在此之前的一段时间里，他们实际上并没有被法律禁止，但他们从来没有觉得这样做很舒服。
And so the symbolic change meant, suddenly, people felt symbolically they could go to areas where they might have been legally entitled to for some years, but they wouldn't go there at that time because they still felt uncomfortable.
因此，象征性的变化意味着，突然间，人们象征性地觉得他们可以去他们多年来可能合法有权进入的地区，但当时他们不会去那里，因为他们仍然感到不舒服。
That's, I think, the success.
我认为这就是成功。
And if you are to ask me, "What has changed for the average black South African since the election?" In terms of housing and so on, the improvements are modest.
如果你问我，“自选举以来，南非黑人的平均水平发生了哪些变化？”在住房等方面，改善幅度不大。
The vast mass of black South Africans, their material conditions haven't improved radically.
广大南非黑人的物质条件并没有得到根本改善。
And, in many cases, not at all, one has to admit.
而且，在很多情况下，人们必须承认，根本不是这样。
But what has really changed, and it is a genuine change for people, is psychological liberation, a feeling that this is their country, and that they have opportunities and possibilities in the country, and that the country is theirs.
但真正改变的是人们的心理解放，是一种感觉，这是他们的国家，他们在这个国家有机会和可能性，这个国家是他们的。
I have to say, I think that has real meaning.
我不得不说，我认为这是有实际意义的。
John Matisonn in South Africa.
约翰·马蒂森在南非。
Coming up, Good Blacks and Bad Blacks, Good Whites and Bad Whites.
接下来，好黑人和坏黑人，好白人和坏白人。
That's all in a minute when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，这一切就在一分钟之内。
From WBEZ Chicago and Public Radio International, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 和国际公共广播电台的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, invite a variety of writers, and performers, and reporters to tackle that theme with original documentaries, radio monologues, found tape, anything they can think of.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，邀请各种作家、表演者和记者用原创纪录片、广播独白、现成磁带以及他们能想到的任何东西来解决这个主题。
Today's show for the Fourth of July weekend, how we're doing, as a nation, healing the wounds of our nation's original sin of slavery.
今天的七月四日周末节目，我们作为一个国家正在如何治愈我们国家奴隶制原罪的伤口。
We're at Act Three, Good Blacks, Bad Blacks.
我们现在处于第三幕，好黑人，坏黑人。
For a perspective on how far black America and white America have come in integrating into one America, consider this story from New Yorker writer Malcolm Gladwell about his cousins who emigrated to this country from Jamaica 12 years ago, scrimped and saved to make a life here.
要了解美国黑人和白人在融入一个美国方面取得了多大进展，请考虑一下《纽约客》作家马尔科姆·格拉德威尔的这篇故事，讲述的是他的堂兄弟们 12 年前从牙买加移民到这个国家，为了在这里谋生，他们节衣缩食。
My cousin Rosie and her husband Noel live in a two-bedroom bungalow on Argyle Avenue in Uniondale, in a working-class neighborhood on the west end of Long Island.
我的表弟罗西和她的丈夫诺埃尔住在尤宁代尔阿盖尔大道上的一栋两居室平房里，位于长岛西端的工人阶级社区。
From the outside, their home looks fairly plain.
从外面看，他们的家看起来相当朴素。
But there's a beautiful park down the street, the public schools are supposed to be good, and Rosie and Noel have built a new garage and renovated the basement.
但街上有一个美丽的公园，公立学校应该很好，罗西和诺埃尔建了一个新车库并翻新了地下室。
Now that Noel has started his own business as an environmental engineer, he has his own office down there.
现在诺埃尔已经以环境工程师的身份开始了自己的事业，他在那里拥有自己的办公室。
Suite 2B, it says on his stationery.
2B 套房，他的信纸上写着。
And every morning, he puts on his suit and goes down the stairs to make calls and work on the computer.
而每天早上，他都会穿上西装，下楼打电话，在电脑上工作。
If Noel's business takes off, Rosie says, she'd like to move to a bigger house in Garden City, which is one town over.
罗西说，如果诺埃尔的生意腾飞，她想搬到一个城镇之外的花园城的一所更大的房子。
She says this even though Garden City is mostly white.
尽管花园城市大部分是白人，她还是这么说。
In fact, when she told one of her girlfriends, a black American, about this idea, her friend said that she was crazy, that Garden City was no place for a black person.
事实上，当她告诉她的一位美国黑人女友这个想法时，她的朋友说她疯了，花园城不适合黑人。
But that's just the point.
但这就是重点。
Rosie and Noel are from Jamaica.
罗西和诺埃尔来自牙买加。
They don't consider themselves black at all.
他们根本不认为自己是黑人。
This doesn't mean that my cousins haven't sometimes been lumped together with American blacks.
这并不意味着我的表兄弟姐妹有时不会与美国黑人混为一谈。
Noel had a job once removing asbestos at Kennedy Airport.
诺埃尔曾经在肯尼迪机场从事过清除石棉的工作。
And his boss called him a nigger and cut his hours.
他的老板骂他是黑鬼并减少了他的工作时间。
But Noel didn't take it personally.
但诺埃尔并不认为这是针对个人的。
"That boss," he says, "didn't like women or Jews either, or people with college degrees, or even himself, for that matter."
“那个老板，”他说，“也不喜欢女人或犹太人，也不喜欢有大学学位的人，甚至他自己。”
Another time, Noel found out that a white guy working next to him in the same job and with the same qualifications was making $10,000 a year more than he was.
还有一次，诺埃尔发现，在他旁边工作的一个白人，从事同样的工作，具有同样的资格，年薪比他多 10,000 美元。
He quit the next day.
第二天他就辞职了。
Noel knows that racism is out there.
诺埃尔知道种族主义是存在的。
It's just that he doesn't quite understand or accept the categories on which it depends.
只是他不太理解或接受它所依赖的范畴。
The facts of his genealogy, of his nationality, of his status as an immigrant made him, in his own eyes, different.
在他自己看来，他的家谱、他的国籍、他的移民身份等事实使他与众不同。
This question of who West Indians are and how they define themselves may seem trivial, like racial hairsplitting, but it's not trivial.
关于西印度人是谁以及他们如何定义自己的问题可能看起来微不足道，就像种族吹毛求疵一样，但它并不是微不足道的。
In the past 20 years, the number of West Indians in America has exploded.
过去20年来，美国西印第安人的数量呈爆炸式增长。
There are now half a million in the New York area alone.
现在仅纽约地区就有五十万。
And despite their recent arrival, they make substantially more money than American blacks.
尽管他们刚来不久，但他们赚的钱却比美国黑人多得多。
They live in better neighborhoods.
他们住在更好的社区。
Their families are stronger.
他们的家庭更强大。
In the New York area, in fact, West Indians fare about as well as Chinese and Korean immigrants.
事实上，在纽约地区，西印度群岛移民的处境与中国和韩国移民一样。
What does it say about the nature of racism that another group of blacks, who have the same legacy of slavery as their American counterparts and are physically indistinguishable from them as well, can come here and succeed as well as the Chinese and the Koreans do?
另一群黑人与美国黑人有着同样的奴隶制遗产，而且在身体上也与他们没有什么区别，他们可以来到这里并像中国人和韩国人一样取得成功，这说明了种族主义的本质吗？
Is overcoming racism as simple as doing what Noel does, which is to dismiss it, to hold himself above it, to brave it and move on?
克服种族主义是否像诺埃尔所做的那样简单，即摒弃种族主义，超越种族主义，勇敢地面对种族主义并继续前进？
Why is one group of blacks flourishing when the other is not?
为什么一组黑人蓬勃发展，而另一组却不然？
The implication of West Indian success is that racism doesn't really exist at all, at least, not in the form that we've assumed it does.
西印度群岛的成功意味着种族主义根本不存在，至少不是以我们假设的形式存在。
It implies that when the conservatives in Congress say that the responsibility for ending urban poverty lies not with collective action, but with the poor themselves, that they're right.
这意味着，当国会中的保守派人士表示，消除城市贫困的责任不在于集体行动，而在于穷人本身时，他们是对的。
I think of this sometimes when I go with Rosie and Noel to their church, which is in Hempstead, just about a mile away.
当我和罗西和诺埃尔一起去他们位于亨普斯特德的教堂时，有时我会想到这一点，大约一英里外。
It was once a white church, but in the past decade or so, it's been taken over by immigrants from the Caribbean.
它曾经是一座白人教堂，但在过去十年左右的时间里，它被来自加勒比海的移民接管了。
They've so swelled its membership that the church has bought much of the surrounding property, and it's about to add 100 seats or so to its sanctuary.
他们的成员数量如此膨胀，以至于教堂购买了周围的大部分财产，并且即将为其圣堂增加 100 个左右的座位。
The pastor, though, is white.
不过，牧师是白人。
And when the band up front is playing and the congregation is in full West Indian form, the pastor sometimes seems out of place, as if he cannot move in time with the music.
当前面的乐队在演奏，会众完全是西印度风格时，牧师有时会显得格格不入，好像他无法与音乐合拍。
I always wonder how long the white minister at Rosie and Noel's church will last, whether there won't be some kind of groundswell among the congregation to replace him with one of their own.
我总是想知道罗西和诺埃尔教堂的白人牧师还能坚持多久，会众中是否会出现某种浪潮，用自己的牧师取代他。
But Noel tells me the issue has never really come up.
但诺埃尔告诉我这个问题从未真正出现过。
Noel says, in fact, that he's happier with a white minister for the same reason that he's happy with his neighborhood, where the people across the way are Polish, and another neighbor is Hispanic, and still another is a black American.
诺埃尔说，事实上，他对白人部长感到更满意，就像他对自己的邻居感到满意一样，对面的人是波兰人，另一个邻居是西班牙裔，还有一个是美国黑人。
He doesn't want to be shut off from everybody else, isolated within the narrow confines of his race.
他不想与其他人隔绝，被孤立在他的种族的狭小范围内。
He wants to be part of the world.
他想成为世界的一部分。
And when he says these things, it's awfully tempting to credit that attitude with what he and Rosie have accomplished.
当他说这些话时，人们很容易将他和罗西所取得的成就归功于这种态度。
Is this confidence, this optimism, this equanimity all that separates the poorest of American blacks from a house on Argyle Avenue?
正是这种自信、这种乐观、这种平静将美国最贫穷的黑人与阿盖尔大道上的房子区分开来吗？
This idea of the West Indian as a kind of superior black is not a new one.
将西印度群岛人视为一种高级黑人的想法并不是什么新鲜事。
When the first wave of Caribbean immigrants came to New York and Boston in the early 1900s, other blacks dubbed them "Jew-maicans" in derisive reference to the emphasis they placed on hard work and education.
1900 年代初，当第一波加勒比移民来到纽约和波士顿时，其他黑人嘲笑他们为“犹太裔美国人”，因为他们强调努力工作和教育。
In the 1980s, the economist Thomas Sowell gave the idea serious intellectual imprimatur by arguing that the West Indian advantage was a historical legacy of Caribbean slave culture.
20 世纪 80 年代，经济学家托马斯·索威尔 (Thomas Sowell) 认为西印度群岛的优势是加勒比海奴隶文化的历史遗产，从而在学术上给予了这一观点严重的认可。
According to Sowell, in the American South, slave owners tended to hire managers who were married in order to limit the problems created by sexual relations between overseers and slave women.
据索维尔说，在美国南部，奴隶主倾向于雇用已婚的管理人员，以限制监工和女奴隶之间的性关系所造成的问题。
But the West Indies were a hardship post without a large and settled white population.
但西印度群岛是一个艰苦的地方，没有大量定居的白人。
There, the overseers tended to be bachelors.
在那里，监督者往往是单身汉。
And with white women scarce, there was far more co-mingling of the races.
由于白人女性稀缺，种族混合现象更加严重。
The resulting large group of coloreds soon formed a kind of proto middle class, performing various kinds of skilled and sophisticated tasks that there were not enough whites around to do, as there were in the American South.
由此产生的一大批有色人种很快就形成了一种原始的中产阶级，他们从事各种熟练而复杂的任务，而周围没有足够的白人来做这些任务，就像美国南部那样。
They were carpenters, masons, plumbers, and small business men many years in advance of their American counterparts, developing skills that required education and initiative.
他们是木匠、泥瓦匠、水管工和小商人，比美国同行早很多年，培养了需要教育和主动性的技能。
My mother and Rosie's mother came from this colored class.
我的母亲和罗西的母亲来自这个有色人种班级。
Their parents were schoolteachers in a tiny village buried in the hills of central Jamaica.
他们的父母是牙买加中部山上一个小村庄的教师。
My grandmother and grandfather's salaries combined put them, at best, on the lower rungs of the middle class.
我祖母和祖父的工资加起来最多只能算中产阶级的下层。
But their expectations went well beyond that.
但他们的期望远远超出了这个范围。
My mother and her sister were pushed to win scholarships to a proper English-style boarding school on the other end of the island.
我的母亲和她的妹妹被迫获得奖学金，去岛另一端的一所正规的英式寄宿学校就读。
And later, when my mother graduated, it was taken for granted that she would attend university in England.
后来，当我母亲毕业时，她理所当然地认为她会去英国上大学。
My grandparents had ambitions for their children.
我的祖父母对他们的孩子有抱负。
But it was a special kind of ambition, borne of a certainty that American blacks did not have, that their values were the same as those of society as a whole and that hard work and talent could actually be rewarded.
但这是一种特殊的野心，它源于美国黑人所没有的确定性，即他们的价值观与整个社会的价值观相同，并且努力工作和才能实际上可以得到回报。
This, I think, is why Noel cannot quite appreciate what it is that weighs black Americans down.
我认为，这就是为什么诺埃尔不能完全理解是什么让美国黑人感到沮丧。
He came of age in a country where he belonged to the majority.
他在一个他属于大多数人的国家长大。
It is tempting to use the West Indian story as evidence that discrimination doesn't really exist, as proof that the only thing inner-city African-Americans have to do to be welcomed as warmly as West Indians is to make the necessary cultural adjustments.
人们很容易用西印度群岛的故事作为证据，证明歧视实际上并不存在，作为证据，证明市中心的非裔美国人要想像西印度群岛人一样受到热烈欢迎，唯一要做的就是做出必要的文化调整。
But, in fact, studies of workplaces that hire West Indians show they are not places where traditional racism has been discarded.
但事实上，对雇用西印度群岛人的工作场所的研究表明，这些工作场所并没有抛弃传统的种族主义。
They're actually places where old-style racism and appreciation of immigrant values are somehow bound up together.
实际上，在这些地方，旧式种族主义和对移民价值观的欣赏以某种方式联系在一起。
Listen to a white manager who was interviewed by the Harvard sociologist Mary Waters.
听听哈佛大学社会学家玛丽·沃特斯采访一位白人经理的话。
"Island blacks who come over, they're immigrant.
“来到这里的岛上黑人，他们是移民。
They may not have had such a good life where they are, so they're going to try to strive to better themselves.
他们可能没有过上这么好的生活，所以他们会努力努力让自己变得更好。
And I think there's a lot of American blacks out there who feel we owe them.
我认为有很多美国黑人觉得我们欠他们的。
And enough is enough already.
已经够了。
You know?
你知道吗？
This is something that happened to their ancestors, not now.
这是他们的祖先发生过的事情，而不是现在。
I mean, we've done so much for the black people in America now, it's time that they got off their butts."
我的意思是，我们现在为美国黑人做了很多事情，是时候让他们摆脱困境了。”
Here then are the two competing ideas about racism side by side.
这是关于种族主义的两种相互竞争的观点。
The manager issues a blanket condemnation of American blacks even as he holds West Indians up to a cultural ideal.
这位经理对美国黑人进行了全面谴责，尽管他仍坚持西印度群岛人的文化理想。
The example of West Indians as good blacks makes the old blanket prejudice against American blacks all the easier to express.
西印度群岛人是好黑人的例子使得针对美国黑人的古老偏见更容易表达。
The manager can tell black Americans to "get off their butts" without fear of sounding, in his own ears, like a racist because he has simultaneously celebrated island blacks for their work ethic.
经理可以告诉美国黑人“滚蛋”，而不必担心在他自己的耳中听起来像种族主义者，因为他同时赞扬了岛上黑人的职业道德。
The success of West Indians is not proof that discrimination against American blacks does not exist.
西印度群岛人的成功并不能证明对美国黑人的歧视不存在。
Rather, it's the means by which discrimination against American blacks is given one last vicious twist, as if to say, "I'm not so shallow as to despise you for the color of your skin because I've found people your color that I like.
相反，这是对美国黑人的歧视最后一次恶毒的扭曲，仿佛在说：“我不会浅薄到因为你的肤色而鄙视你，因为我已经找到了我喜欢的肤色的人。
Now I can despise you for who you are."
现在我可以因为你的身份而鄙视你了。”
I grew up in Canada, in a little farming town an hour and a half outside Toronto.
我在加拿大长大，在距离多伦多一个半小时车程的一个农业小镇里。
My father teaches mathematics at a nearby university.
我父亲在附近的一所大学教数学。
My mother's a therapist.
我妈妈是一名治疗师。
For many years, she was the only black in town.
多年来，她是镇上唯一的黑人。
But I can't remember wondering, or worrying, or even thinking about this fact.
但我不记得曾想过、担心过、甚至思考过这个事实。
Back then, color meant only good things.
那时，颜色只意味着美好的事物。
It meant my cousins in Jamaica.
这指的是我在牙买加的表兄弟。
It meant the graduate students from Africa and India my father would bring home from the university.
这意味着我父亲将从大学带回非洲和印度的研究生。
My own color was not something I ever thought about much either because it seemed such a stray fact.
我自己的颜色也不是我想太多的东西，因为它似乎是一个无关紧要的事实。
But things changed when I left for Toronto to attend college.
但当我前往多伦多上大学时，情况发生了变化。
This was during the early 1980s, when West Indians were emigrating to Canada in droves, and Toronto had become second only to New York as the Jamaican expatriates' capital in North America.
当时正值20世纪80年代初，西印度群岛人大批移民加拿大，多伦多成为仅次于纽约的北美牙买加侨民之都。
At school, in the dining hall, I was served by Jamaicans.
在学校的食堂里，牙买加人为我服务。
The infamous Jane Finch projects in northern Toronto were considered the Jamaican projects.
多伦多北部臭名昭著的简·芬奇项目被认为是牙买加项目。
The drug trade then taking off was said to be the Jamaican drug trade.
据说当时兴起的毒品贸易就是牙买加毒品贸易。
In the popular imagination, Jamaicans were, and are, welfare queens, and gun-toting gangsters, and dissolute youths.
在大众的想象中，牙买加人过去是、现在也是福利女王、持枪歹徒和放荡的年轻人。
After I had moved to the United States, I puzzled over this seeming contradiction, how West Indians celebrated in New York for their industry and drive could represent, just 500 miles northwest, crime and dissipation.
搬到美国后，我对这个看似矛盾的现象感到困惑：西印度群岛人在纽约庆祝他们的勤奋和动力，却可能代表着西北 500 英里处的犯罪和放荡。
Didn't Torontonians see what was special and different in West Indian culture?
难道多伦多人没有看到西印度文化的特殊性和不同之处吗？
But that was a naive question.
但这是一个天真的问题。
The West Indians were the first significant brush with blackness that smug, white Torontonians had ever had.
西印度群岛人是自鸣得意的多伦多白人中第一次与黑人发生重大接触的人。
They had no bad blacks to contrast with the newcomers, no African-Americans to serve as a safety valve for their prejudices, no way to perform America's crude racial triage.
他们没有坏黑人与新来者对比，没有非洲裔美国人作为他们偏见的安全阀，没有办法执行美国粗暴的种族分类。
There must be people in Toronto just like Rosie and Noel with the same attitudes and aspirations, who want to live in a neighborhood as nice as Argyle Avenue, who want to build a new garage, and renovate their basement, and set up their own business downstairs.
多伦多一定有人像Rosie和Noel一样，有着同样的态度和愿望，想要住在Argyle Avenue这样好的社区，想要建造一个新车库，翻新地下室，在楼下开办自己的生意。
But it's not completely up to them, is it?
但这并不完全取决于他们，不是吗？
What has happened to Jamaicans in Toronto is proof that what's happened to Jamaicans here is not the end of racism, or even the beginning of the end of racism, but an accident of history and geography.
牙买加人在多伦多发生的事情证明，牙买加人在这里发生的事情并不是种族主义的终结，甚至不是种族主义终结的开始，而是历史和地理的偶然。
In America, there is someone else to despise.
在美国，还有其他人值得鄙视。
In Canada, there is not.
在加拿大，没有。
In the new racism, as in the old, somebody always has to be the nigger.
在新的种族主义中，就像在旧的种族主义中一样，总是有人是黑鬼。
Malcolm Gladwell's story first appeared in the New Yorker magazine.
马尔科姆·格拉德威尔的故事首次出现在《纽约客》杂志上。
Act Four, Good Whites, Bad Whites.
第四幕，好白人，坏白人。
This next assessment of our state of national racial healing, from radio producer Cecilia Vaisman and Christina Egloff with Jay Allison, about a woman named Carolyn Wren Shannon and her neighbors.
电台制作人塞西莉亚·维斯曼 (Cecilia Vaisman) 和克里斯蒂娜·埃格洛夫 (Christina Egloff) 与杰伊·艾利森 (Jay Allison) 对我们国家种族治愈状况进行了下一次评估，内容涉及一位名叫卡罗琳·雷恩·香农 (Carolyn Wren Shannon) 的妇女和她的邻居。
My mother was telling us that one time, when we were younger, my father was very prejudiced.
我母亲告诉我们，有一次，当我们还小的时候，我父亲非常有偏见。
And I come home from school with this friend.
我和这个朋友从学校回家。
And he was on the recliner with a newspaper.
他坐在躺椅上，手里拿着一份报纸。
And I said, "Mum, can my friend stay over for supper?" And my father dropped the paper to look to see who it was, and it was a little black girl.
我说：“妈妈，我的朋友可以留下来吃晚饭吗？”我父亲扔下报纸去看那人是谁，结果是一个黑人小女孩。
She said, my father almost swallowed his false teeth.
她说，我父亲差点吞掉假牙。
And she was like, "Honey, I don't really think that's a good idea." She said, I come in, and my father was horrified.
她说：“亲爱的，我真的不认为这是一个好主意。”她说，我进来了，我父亲吓坏了。
Because I really didn't see things-- I don't know.
因为我真的没有看到东西——我不知道。
I was colorblind really until that incident.
在那次事件之前我真的是色盲。
And then we kind of got the rules that that wasn't accepted.
然后我们就得到了不被接受的规则。
Who you calling?
你打电话给谁？
Cheerleader Captain Ready?
啦啦队队长准备好了吗？
[CHEERING] Go.
[欢呼]走吧。
F-I-G-H-T, fight, fight.
F-I-G-H-T，战斗，战斗。
F-I-G-H-T, fight, fight.
F-I-G-H-T，战斗，战斗。
My mother and father are both from Charlestown.
我的母亲和父亲都来自查尔斯敦。
All of my great-grandparents are from Ireland.
我所有的曾祖父母都来自爱尔兰。
All four of them.
他们四个人。
And that's how the majority of this community works.
这就是这个社区大多数人的运作方式。
Most of them, when they come over on the boat, they all were together and settled together.
他们中的大多数人，当他们坐船过来的时候，都聚集在一起，定居在一起。
And that's how this community has stayed the same.
这就是这个社区保持不变的方式。
You'll find that a lot of the people in this community are related because I think there's some security having family around.
你会发现这个社区里的很多人都是有血缘关系的，因为我认为有家人在身边会有一定的安全感。
And people are proud that their Irish, and they're proud that they're Catholic.
人们为自己的爱尔兰人感到自豪，也为自己是天主教徒感到自豪。
And I think people-- they stick to their own.
我认为人们会坚持自己的想法。
When we were in grammar school, there was one teen who was Protestant.
当我们在文法学校时，有一个青少年是新教徒。
And we goofed on him because he didn't believe in the same thing as us.
我们嘲笑他，因为他和我们不相信同样的事情。
Course, no one understood what a Protestant was, just that he was different.
当然，没有人明白新教徒是什么，只是知道他与众不同。
Are you ready, girls?
女孩们，你们准备好了吗？
[MAKES A HUMMING SOUND, SETTING THE PITCH] Go ahead.
[发出嗡嗡声，确定音调]继续。
Go.
去。
Follow her lead.
跟随她的带领。
[SINGING] We are the girls from Charlestown you hear so much about.
[唱歌] 我们是你们经常听到的来自查尔斯敦的女孩。
Most everybody looks at us whenever we go out.
每当我们外出时，大多数人都会看着我们。
We're noted for our reputation and the things we do.
我们因我们的声誉和我们所做的事情而闻名。
But what the hell do we care?
但我们到底关心什么呢？
The boys are naughty too.
男孩子们也很调皮。
Wasn't that fun?
那不是很有趣吗？
Carolyn Wren Shannon Drink with the straws.
卡罗琳·雷恩·香农 (Carolyn Wren Shannon) 用吸管喝饮料。
You know the little--
你知道一点点——
We are here at my Aunt Mary Ellen's house on Elm Street in Charlestown.
我们现在在查尔斯敦榆树街玛丽·艾伦姨妈家。
I'm here with my Aunt Linda, my cousin Patty, my cousin Donna, my sister-in-law Mimi, my cousin Mary Ann, my Aunt Barbara, my cousin Sheila, and my Aunt Mary Ellen.
我和我的琳达阿姨、我的表弟帕蒂、我的表弟唐娜、我的嫂子咪咪、我的表弟玛丽安、我的芭芭拉阿姨、我的表弟希拉和我的玛丽艾伦阿姨都在这里。
My grandmother, who is the matriarch of this wonderful family.
我的祖母，她是这个美好家庭的女家长。
Mary Wren, wonderful woman, she had seven children.
玛丽·雷恩，出色的女人，她有七个孩子。
And she had 32 grandchildren and 43 great-grandchildren.
她有32个孙子和43个曾孙。
I'd say about 70% are still local.
我想说大约70%仍然是当地人。
Most people don't understand it if they're from the town.
如果大多数人来自城里，他们不会理解这一点。
There's always that Charlestown-- they want to be, they wish they were, they don't understand what it's like.
总有那样的查尔斯敦——他们想要成为，他们希望成为，但他们不明白那是什么样子。
There's strength in numbers.
人多力量大。
And that's what happens here.
这就是这里发生的事情。
Everybody knows everybody.
每个人都认识每个人。
So it's a kind of strength that you don't find in other areas.
所以这是一种你在其他领域找不到的优势。
To have 17,000 people and the majority of them have major relatives around, it makes a big difference in this community.
拥有 17,000 人，而且其中大多数人都有重要亲戚，这对这个社区来说是一个巨大的变化。
Charlestown is home.
查尔斯敦是家。
Carolyn Wren Shannon Yeah.
卡罗琳·雷恩·香农 是的。
Once busing occurred, that wonderful year of '76, 1976, when the federal government mandated busing, court-ordered busing, my junior year was totally insane.
一旦校车发生，那是 1976 年 76 年那美妙的一年，当时联邦政府强制校车，法院下令校车，我大三那年完全疯了。
Everything changed.
一切都变了。
There were new faces.
出现了新面孔。
People were never exposed to minorities.
人们从未接触过少数群体。
And all of a sudden, you're thrown in a classroom.
突然之间，你被扔进了教室。
And there's turmoil on the streets, and there's turmoil in your house, and there's turmoil on the news.
街上有骚乱，家里有骚乱，新闻里也有骚乱。
And the city's erupted with racial violence.
这座城市爆发了种族暴力。
And everyone's following everyone.
每个人都在关注每个人。
Whatever the crowd does.
不管群众做什么。
If they throw rocks, you throw rocks.
如果他们扔石头，你就扔石头。
If they beat up a black person, then you stand and watch.
如果他们殴打黑人，你就站着看。
Whereas, as a Catholic, you realize that you don't treat someone like that.
然而，作为一名天主教徒，你意识到你不会那样对待别人。
But everyone forgot everything.
但大家都忘记了一切。
It was like this total mayhem.
这就像一场彻底的混乱。
School wasn't the same.
学校不一样。
There were metal detectors put in the classroom, in the entrance of the schools.
教室、学校入口处都安装了金属探测器。
There were policemen everywhere.
到处都有警察。
At night, they would burn cars.
晚上，他们会焚烧汽车。
It was total crazy.
这太疯狂了。
There was a major rally on Boston, City Hall Plaza.
波士顿市政厅广场举行了一场大型集会。
And a black man was attacked with an American flag because he was black and walked in front of their rally, which was all white.
一名黑人因为是黑人而受到美国国旗的袭击，因为他走在全是白色的集会前面。
They speared him with the American flag.
他们用美国国旗刺他。
It was a horrible, horrible scene.
那是一个可怕、可怕的场景。
It was all over the news across the world.
全世界的新闻都报道了这件事。
Charlestown, Southie, they're racist.
查尔斯敦、索西，他们是种族主义者。
Boston is a place full of hate.
波士顿是一个充满仇恨的地方。
And it was.
确实如此。
It was.
是的。
Just start it.
就开始吧。
Cheerleaders [CHEERING] [UNINTELLIGIBLE] is the team that we're gonna defeat, so come on, everybody, do the Townie beat.
啦啦队[欢呼][无法辨认]是我们要击败的球队，所以来吧，大家，一起来打Townie吧。
[CHEERING] One, two, three, four, clap, one, two, clap, one, two, three, four, five, six, clap, one, two, clap, one, two, clap, clap.
[欢呼]一，二，三，四，鼓掌，一，二，鼓掌，一，二，三，四，五，六，鼓掌，一，二，鼓掌，一，二，鼓掌，鼓掌。
When I was in junior high, the biggest thing was to get up to the high school because that was where your mother went and your father went.
当我上初中时，最重要的事情就是升入高中，因为那是你妈妈和你爸爸去的地方。
And those teachers were still there.
那些老师还在那里。
And you could still talk to your mother about the bathroom story.
你仍然可以和你妈妈谈论浴室的故事。
But that doesn't occur anymore because there is no Charlestown High like it used to be.
但这种情况不再发生了，因为查尔斯敦高中不再像以前那样了。
And now the school itself is predominately black.
现在学校本身主要是黑人。
My kids will probably go to parochial schools.
我的孩子可能会去教会学校。
They won't do Charlestown High cheers.
他们不会为查尔斯敦高中欢呼。
They may do St. Clement's cheers.
他们可能会为圣克莱门特欢呼。
But when my aunts get together, they all sing Charlestown High songs.
但当我的阿姨们聚在一起时，她们都会唱查尔斯敦高中的歌曲。
And it's like a little pep rally when we're all at a family gathering.
这就像我们在家庭聚会时举行的小型鼓舞士气集会。
But that won't happen for my kids.
但这不会发生在我的孩子身上。
And I think that's kind of sad.
我认为这有点可悲。
Put your hands on your hips, and we'll do it regular.
将手放在臀部上，我们会定期进行。
OK, put 'em up.
好的，把它们放起来。
Close your feet.
闭上你的脚。
Say, ready.
说，准备好了。
[CHEERING] Go.
[欢呼]走吧。
Townie team means victory any way you spell it.
无论怎么拼写，Townie 团队都意味着胜利。
Hey, very good, girls.
嘿，很好，女孩们。
Jay Allison What does Townie team mean?
杰·艾利森 Townie team 是什么意思？
Townie Teenie.
镇尼蒂尼。
You gonna go to cheerleading today?
你今天要去啦啦队吗？
Huh?
啊？
We're gonna go down to cheerleading?
我们要去啦啦队吗？
What happened on the Oprah show was she had on a white man who was married to a white woman.
奥普拉秀上发生的事情是，她爱上了一名与白人女性结婚的白人男子。
He disowned his children for being associated with black men.
他因孩子们与黑人有联系而与自己断绝关系。
And then he, in fact, disowned his grandchildren because they were black in them.
事实上，他与自己的孙子断绝了关系，因为他们是黑人。
And I was saying, "That's a disgrace.
我说：“这是一种耻辱。
That's your blood.
那是你的血。
You don't disown anyone." And Danny said--
你不否认任何人。”丹尼说——
I don't know.
我不知道。
What did I say?
我说什么了？
Carolyn Wren Shannon You said that you thought he was right.
卡罗琳·雷恩·香农 你说你认为他是对的。
I said I don't know what I would do.
我说我不知道我会做什么。
But I understood his feelings.
但我理解他的感受。
So you wouldn't mind your daughters marrying a black guy?
所以你不介意你的女儿嫁给一个黑人吗？
I didn't say that, which we have discussed at great length.
我没有这么说，我们已经详细讨论过这一点。
That is definitely a fear of mine, that I would like to think I'm open minded about race, more so than I've ever been.
这绝对是我的恐惧，我想我对种族持开放态度，比以往任何时候都更加开放。
But if it came down to my daughters choosing another race, I don't think I'd be happy with that.
但如果我的女儿们选择另一场比赛，我认为我不会对此感到满意。
I wouldn't say I'm racist, but I definitely have bitter feelings towards blacks.
我不会说我是种族主义者，但我确实对黑人怀有痛苦的感情。
I was raised that way too.
我也是这样长大的。
My father's an Archie Bunker.
我父亲是阿奇·邦克人。
I think it rubs off on you.
我认为这对你有影响。
I would never say anything to my girls.
我永远不会对我的女儿们说任何话。
But they'll learn.
但他们会学习的。
They'll learn what's theirs, what's your own, and things like that just growing up around the same type of people.
他们会知道什么是他们的，什么是你自己的，以及在同一类型的人周围长大的类似事情。
They'll look at anyone that's not like them differently.
他们会用不同的眼光看待任何与他们不同的人。
I don't have to tell them that.
我不必告诉他们这一点。
It sounds ignorant, but I had no pro-- I like the way I grew up.
听起来很无知，但我没有亲——我喜欢我的成长方式。
Carolyn's of the same mold.
卡罗琳的也是同样的模子。
And I don't have a problem with that.
我对此没有意见。
I'm not gonna push it on 'em at all.
我根本不会把它强加给他们。
But I hope someday they marry an Irish-Catholic boy.
但我希望有一天他们会嫁给一个爱尔兰天主教男孩。
I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
我不认为这有什么问题。
Other people say, that's being racial.
其他人说，这就是种族歧视。
I think it's natural to like your own kind of people.
我认为喜欢自己同类的人是很自然的。
[SINGING] I love you.
[唱歌]我爱你。
You love me.
你爱我。
We're a happy family.
我们是一个幸福的家庭。
With a great big hug and a kiss from me to you.
我给你一个大大的拥抱和一个吻。
Won't you say you love me too?
你不是说你也爱我吗？
I think it's a real breed of person.
我认为这是一个真正的人。
You must have to grow up somewhere where you walk down the street, and there's a black kid, a Chinese kid, a white kid, and a Puerto Rican kid playing together.
你一定是在某个地方长大的，当你走在街上，有一个黑人孩子、一个中国孩子、一个白人孩子和一个波多黎各孩子在一起玩耍。
I just can't even imagine that.
我简直无法想象。
That's some kind of a made-up fairy tale, I think, where everyone gets along together.
我认为这是某种虚构的童话故事，每个人都和睦相处。
I can't imagine it.
我无法想象。
Life teaches you sometimes very painfully.
生活有时会非常痛苦地教导你。
And I think that's your best teacher anyway.
无论如何，我认为那是你最好的老师。
No one can tell you not to be racist, and they can't tell you to like your black neighbor.
没有人可以告诉你不要种族主义，他们也不能告诉你喜欢你的黑人邻居。
You have to learn.
你必须学习。
So I think it's a person's choice.
所以我认为这是一个人的选择。
So you can choose to be ignorant, or you can choose to be fair.
所以你可以选择无知，也可以选择公平。
I was captain of the cheerleaders.
我是啦啦队队长。
And I remember Miss Kessner, which was the cheerleading coach, was also the phys ed director.
我记得凯斯纳小姐是啦啦队教练，也是体育总监。
And she said, she hadn't chose the captains yet.
她说，她还没有选队长。
And this was something that I wanted my whole life.
这是我一生都想要的东西。
This was my big goal in life to be cheerleading captain.
成为啦啦队队长是我人生的大目标。
And she said to me one day, "If a black girl tries out for cheerleading, will you accept her?" And I thought to myself, "I'm gonna be a jerk if I don't go along with the crowd." It was a very difficult decision for me.
有一天她对我说：“如果一个黑人女孩尝试参加啦啦队，你会接受她吗？”我心里想：“如果我不随波逐流，我就会成为一个混蛋。”这对我来说是一个非常困难的决定。
And I knew this could jeopardize whether I'd become captain or not.
我知道这可能会危及我是否成为队长。
And I said, "I wouldn't accept her." She put her head down, and she walked away.
我说：“我不会接受她。”她低下头，转身就走。
So the day of cheerleading tryouts, she come into the room of all the girls, and she said, "Traditionally, Charlestown High has had two cheerleading captains.
因此，啦啦队选拔赛那天，她走进所有女孩的房间，她说：“传统上，查尔斯敦高中有两名啦啦队队长。
This year, they'll only be one." And I put my head down, and I started to cry because I knew I blew it.
今年，他们就只剩下一个了。”我低下头，开始哭泣，因为我知道我搞砸了。
It was my first experience with race and making the wrong decision.
这是我第一次经历种族并做出错误的决定。
So we're all in the room, and she says, "The cheerleading captain for this year is Carolyn Wren." I started bawling my eyes out.
所以我们都在房间里，她说：“今年的啦啦队队长是卡罗琳·雷恩。”我开始痛哭流涕。
And I was like, "Oh, my god." And I looked up at her.
我当时想，“哦，天哪。”我抬头看着她。
And she knew that I knew that I had made a wrong choice.
她知道我知道我做出了错误的选择。
I knew I made the wrong choice, but I made it from my heart because I was raised in a house where race wasn't accepted.
我知道我做了错误的选择，但我是发自内心的，因为我是在一个不接受种族的房子里长大的。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
That's embarrassing.
那就尴尬了。
I think they're embarrassing, the Charlestown High cheerleaders.
我觉得查尔斯敦高中的啦啦队们很尴尬。
What's wrong with them?
他们怎么了？
Woman 1 Because they don't cheer like your regular cheerleaders anyway.
女人 1 因为他们不像你的常规拉拉队队员那样欢呼。
They cheer like jigaboos or something.
他们像吉加布斯什么的那样欢呼。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Carol, that is not cheering.
卡罗尔，那不是欢呼。
It's boge.
是博格。
They're like clapping, and singing, and getting down with their cheers.
他们就像鼓掌、唱歌、欢呼。
It's not even--
这还不是——
It's jive cheerleading.
这是 jive 啦啦队。
Woman 1 It's jive cheering.
女人 1 欢呼雀跃。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not your good old cheerleader cheering.
这不是你那老好啦啦队长的欢呼声。
It's not what they teach you at cheerleading camp.
这不是啦啦队训练营里他们教你的。
The all-American cheerleader.
全美啦啦队队长。
It's not that style.
不是那种风格。
It's more ethnic.
更有民族特色。
It's more cultural.
更有文化气息了
It's very different than what we're used to.
这与我们习惯的非常不同。
Definitely.
确实。
Woman 1 See, my sisters wouldn't cheer for Charlestown High because of it.
女人 1 瞧，我的姐妹们因此不会为查尔斯敦高中欢呼。
I can't even think of a cheer that we could compare it to other than "How funky is your chicken."
除了“你的鸡真时髦”之外，我什至想不出什么可以与它相比的欢呼声。
No, they do that "We don't need no music to cheer." And they stamp their feet.
不，他们这样做是“我们不需要音乐来欢呼”。他们跺着脚。
And they do like this little dance.
他们确实喜欢这个小舞蹈。
And they do like [CLAPS AND STAMPS].
他们确实喜欢[拍手和邮票]。
Oh, you want to just slap them and say, "Stop, you look so foolish."
哦，你真想扇他们一巴掌，然后说：“停下来，你看起来很傻。”
But that's all they know.
但他们只知道这些。
That's what they're taught.
这就是他们被教导的。
And that's what they're excited to do.
这就是他们很高兴做的事情。
Nobody's excited to have 'em.
没有人会因为拥有它们而感到兴奋。
Everybody just wished they'd go away.
每个人都希望他们能够离开。
I remember sitting beside a girl in school.
我记得在学校里坐在一个女孩旁边。
And she had an Afro.
她有一头爆炸头。
And we had common pins in health.
我们在健康方面也有共同点。
Not health.
不健康。
Sewing.
缝纫。
It was home ec.
这是家庭EC。
And we used to put paper at the end of the common pin and toss the common pin.
我们过去常常把纸放在公共销钉的末端，然后扔掉公共销钉。
And the paper would allow it to weigh it down, so you could send it.
纸张可以让它承受重量，这样你就可以发送它。
And we would put them into her hair.
我们会把它们放进她的头发里。
And this was hitting her head.
这正击中她的头。
We tortured that girl because she was different and because she had an Afro, and none of us did.
我们折磨那个女孩，因为她与众不同，而且因为她有爆炸头，但我们没有人这样做。
Because she was black.
因为她是黑人。
And I was a part of that.
我也是其中的一部分。
I was as racist as the next one.
我和下一个一样是种族主义者。
It's not something I'm proud of.
这不是我值得骄傲的事情。
And I think working with teenagers, it's a constant effort to remind them that you don't judge someone by the color of their skin.
我认为与青少年合作，需要不断地提醒他们，不要通过肤色来判断一个人。
OK, tonight's conference is gonna be on racism.
好吧，今晚的会议将讨论种族主义问题。
We realize it's a very sensitive issue.
我们意识到这是一个非常敏感的问题。
We're not here to try to change anybody's mind.
我们来这里不是为了试图改变任何人的想法。
All we want to do is raise your consciousness about it.
我们想做的就是提高您对此的认识。
Want to talk about it.
想谈谈它。
Want to have a lot of fun with it.
想要从中获得很多乐趣。
Couple of rules.
几个规则。
Watch your mouth.
注意你的嘴。
No swearing.
没有咒骂。
A little respect.
一点尊重。
You can, of course, speak your own opinions, but with a little taste.
当然，你可以说出你自己的意见，但要有一点品味。
Understand?
理解？
OK, we're gonna start.
好的，我们要开始了。
If you asked me when I was 10, would I be working for the city with other black people, I would've told you, you were crazy, that I'm above them, that I don't work with niggers.
如果你在我 10 岁时问我，我会和其他黑人一起为这座城市工作吗？我会告诉你，你疯了，我比他们高，我不和黑人一起工作。
That's what I woulda told you when I was 10.
这就是我 10 岁时告诉你的。
Yeah, when I first took this job, I actually had trouble working with people across the city because I was really racist.
是的，当我第一次接受这份工作时，我实际上很难与整个城市的人一起工作，因为我真的是种族主义者。
But I was in the high school when there was busing.
但我在高中的时候有公交车。
So there was a lot of racial riots.
于是就发生了很多种族骚乱。
There was total mayhem every day.
每天都充满混乱。
I hated them.
我讨厌他们。
It was just those things and their Afros.
就是那些东西和他们的爆炸头。
[LAUGHTER] I hated them.
[笑声]我讨厌他们。
I didn't want to look at them.
我不想看他们。
I didn't want to talk to them.
我不想和他们说话。
I was the class vice president and almost lost the post because I wouldn't accept black students in Charlestown High.
我是班级副班长，差点失去这个职位，因为我不接受查尔斯顿高中的黑人学生。
I've taken incredible strides as far as accepting.
就接受而言，我已经取得了令人难以置信的进步。
I've matured.
我已经成熟了。
I'm educated.
我受过教育。
It's very different than when I was 17, and filled with a lot of hate, and was surrounded by a lot of people who hated because of the color of their skin.
这和我17岁时有很大不同，当时我充满了仇恨，周围有很多因为肤色而仇恨的人。
OK, this warm-up-- guys, you need to listen-- this warm-up is called motion circle.
好的，这个热身——伙计们，你们需要听着——这个热身叫做运动圈。
So what I want you to do is walk-- spread out a little more-- and I want you to walk.
所以我希望你做的就是走路——再分散一点——我希望你走路。
Come this way.
这边过来。
Just walk in a circle.
就走一圈。
OK, now I'm going to tell you do something.
好吧，现在我要告诉你做点什么。
I want you to all of a sudden do it, OK?
我希望你突然这样做，好吗？
Walk like you're stuck in quicksand.
走路就像陷入流沙一样。
Stuck in what?
被什么困住了？
Carolyn Wren Shannon Stuck in quicksand.
卡罗琳·雷恩·香农 陷入流沙之中。
Walk like you're Irish.
像爱尔兰人一样走路。
[LAUGHTER] OK.
[笑声] 好的。
Keep walking.
继续走。
Walk as if you're carrying something heavy.
走路就好像你背着很重的东西一样。
OK, walk like you're black.
好吧，像黑人一样走路。
[LAUGHTER] My father, who used to be incredibly racist and has grown out of that-- I can't even believe it.
[笑声] 我的父亲曾经是一个令人难以置信的种族主义者，但现在已经改掉了——我什至不敢相信。
He's just not the same person.
他只是不是同一个人。
And he accepts people for what they are, which was very important for all of us to see.
他接受人们本来的样子，这一点对我们所有人来说都非常重要。
Because you lead by example.
因为您以身作则。
And if you can't lead by example-- it's such an important part of, I think, each family.
如果你不能以身作则——我认为，这是每个家庭的重要组成部分。
And I would say, on a whole, that the majority of racism is learned in the home.
我想说，总的来说，大多数种族主义都是在家庭中习得的。
It's what you're brought up with.
这就是你长大的。
It's what you hear.
这就是你听到的。
It's what you're told.
这就是你被告知的。
And it's how you're raised.
这就是你的成长方式。
And if you go out and you think that battering someone because they're black, then I would bet my paycheck that, in your home, racism is a serious issue and also a serious problem.
如果你出去并认为殴打某人是因为他们是黑人，那么我会用我的薪水打赌，在你家里，种族主义是一个严重的问题，也是一个严重的问题。
And it was for me.
这是为了我。
And it's taken me a long, long time to overcome it.
我花了很长时间才克服它。
Although I still have fears.
虽然我心里还是有恐惧。
Although I'm open minded and educated, I still have some of those fears.
尽管我思想开放且受过良好教育，但我仍然有一些恐惧。
That story was first produced in a slightly longer form for WGBH in Jay Allison's Life Stories series.
这个故事最初是在 Jay Allison 的《生活故事》系列中为 WGBH 制作的，长度稍长。
Engineering by Jane Pipik.
工程由简·皮皮克 (Jane Pipik) 设计。
Cecilia Vaisman did the original interviews.
塞西莉亚·维斯曼 (Cecilia Vaisman) 进行了最初的采访。
Well, our program was produced today by Elise Spiegel and myself with Nancy Updike and Julie Snyder.
好吧，我们今天的节目是由埃莉斯·斯皮格尔和我、南希·厄普代克和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作的。
Musical help from Sarah Vowell.
莎拉·沃威尔的音乐帮助。
Contributing editors Sarah Vowell, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, and Paul Tough.
特约编辑 Sarah Vowell、Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和 Paul Tough。
To buy a cassette of this program, call us at WBEZ in Chicago, 312-832-3380.
要购买该节目的磁带，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ，电话：312-832-3380。
That's 312-832-3380.
那是 312-832-3380。
Our email address, [email protected] .
我们的电子邮件地址，[电子邮件受保护]。
[FUNDING CREDITS] This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
[资金来源]《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia, who makes most of his management decisions this way.
WBEZ 的管理由 Torey Malatia 监督，他的大部分管理决策都是通过这种方式做出的。
I went, and I prayed.
我去了，我祈祷了。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。