678: The Wannabes - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #678 | July 5, 2019 678: The Wannabes Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 678 集 | 2019 年 7 月 5 日 678：The Wannabes 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

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Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

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Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Zoe Chace.

序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 佐伊·切斯。

Ira Glass.

艾拉·格拉斯.

Ira Glass So you went to Iowa.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 所以你去了爱荷华州。

I did.

我做到了。

You know, there are like 50,000 Democratic candidates running for president.

你知道，大约有 50,000 名民主党候选人竞选总统。

They're all in Iowa.

他们都在爱荷华州。

And there's this one political writer, Dave Weigel with the Washington Post, he writes this newsletter thing called The Trailer three times a week.

还有一位政治作家，《华盛顿邮报》的戴夫·韦格尔，他每周写三次名为《预告片》的时事通讯。

And he has this particular superpower where somehow, he seems to be with every single candidate who's running at the exact same time.

他拥有这种特殊的超能力，不知何故，他似乎与每一位同时竞选的候选人在一起。

So at this moment, where everything seems like this grand 25 ring circus with this race, he seemed like maybe the very best person in the world to watch this with.

所以此时此刻，这场比赛的一切都像是一场盛大的 25 环马戏表演，他似乎可能是世界上最适合观看这场比赛的人。

When there's the next president, he'll have seen every moment, not skipping anything.

当下一任总统出现时，他会看到每一刻，不会跳过任何事情。

Hopefully, he will understand why it happened.

希望他能明白为什么会发生这样的事。

And so you basically wanted to see the whole election all at once the way he does.

所以你基本上想像他一样一次性看到整个选举。

Yeah.

是的。

And it's so crazy traveling through primary states with him.

和他一起穿越主要州真是太疯狂了。

He knows these places so well.

他对这些地方太了解了。

In Iowa, we pulled up to a gas station.

在爱荷华州，我们把车停在一个加油站。

If I had to rank Iowa gas stations, I think QuikTrip, then Kum & Go, then Casey's.

如果我必须对爱荷华州加油站进行排名，我认为是 QuikTrip，然后是 Kum & Go，然后是 Casey's。

Wait.

等待。

So what's so great about QuikTrip?

那么 QuikTrip 有什么了不起的呢？

The current ones, the fairly new ones-- there are some that have been there for a while.

当前的、相当新的——有些已经存在了一段时间了。

But the new ones, I think it might have high quality lids that are like high quality plastic, as opposed to the thing that just breaks--

但新的，我认为它可能有高质量的盖子，就像高质量的塑料，而不是刚刚破裂的东西——

Lids?

盖子？

Dave Weigel --after one use.

戴夫·韦格尔——使用一次后。

Yeah, lids.

是的，盖子。

And keep in mind.

并记住。

This is the only taste I'm going to have for a few hours, and I need the caffeine.

这是我几个小时内唯一能尝到的味道，我需要咖啡因。

So I've put thought into it.

所以我已经考虑了。

And I have colleagues who are--

我有一些同事——

We were leaving a Hickenlooper event and racing over to a Beto event.

我们正离开希肯卢珀 (Hickenlooper) 赛事，前往贝托 (Beto) 赛事。

Beto is a former Texas senatorial candidate, Beto O'Rourke.

贝托是前德克萨斯州参议员候选人贝托·奥罗克。

Hickenlooper, John Hickenlooper, former Colorado governor-- it took me so long to read up on all these guys.

希肯卢珀，约翰·希肯卢珀，前科罗拉多州州长——我花了很长时间才了解所有这些人。

It took like a day to figure out who's who.

花了一天的时间才弄清楚谁是谁。

Yes.

是的。

Thank you for that.

谢谢你。

We flew in.

我们飞进去了。

We went to four things in a day.

我们一天做了四件事。

First, Knoxville, Iowa.

首先是爱荷华州诺克斯维尔。

Weigel looks kind of like a reporter from the '70s-- mustached, notably, casually dressed, hair askew.

韦格尔看起来有点像 70 年代的记者——留着小胡子，穿着随意，头发歪斜。

We're going to this tiny event at this tiny brewpub.

我们要去这个小啤酒吧参加这个小活动。

And as we're driving up to it, we think we see the candidate standing right outside.

当我们开车前往时，我们认为我们看到候选人就站在外面。

I think it's him.

我想是他。

Dave Weigel He's fairly tall.

戴夫·韦格尔（Dave Weigel） 他相当高。

Huh.

呵呵。

That's the outfit, the chinos and everything.

这就是服装、斜纹棉布裤和所有东西。

That is him.

那就是他。

Isn't it surreal?

这不是超现实吗？

Just like when you're walking through a small town, you're like, oh, that guy running for president.

就像当你走过一个小镇时，你就像是，哦，那个竞选总统的人。

Yeah, all right.

是的，好吧。

I don't know why it's surreal to him.

我不知道为什么这对他来说是超现实的。

This happens to him literally all the time.

这种事在他身上经常发生。

I think he's waiting to be introduced.

我想他正在等待被介绍。

Oh, Amy.

哦，艾米。

That's his wife, who's with him today-- the one woman in the--

那是他的妻子，今天和他在一起——房间里唯一的女人——

In that group?

在那个组？

Dave Weigel Yeah.

戴夫·韦格尔 是的。

[CHUCKLES]

[笑声]

What?

什么？

Dave Weigel I don't know.

戴夫·韦格尔 我不知道。

Just, it's fun living through things like this.

只是，经历这样的事情很有趣。

Oh, he's really into it.

哦，他真的很热衷。

Zoe Chace It thrills him.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 这让他很兴奋。

He loves this.

他喜欢这个。

There's this one moment after Beto finishes his little talk, and people come up to him and ask questions.

贝托结束了他的简短谈话后，人们走到他面前问问题。

And this guy-- it's in this tiny brewery, which kind of looks like a rec room, almost.

这个家伙——就在这个小啤酒厂里，看起来几乎就像一个娱乐室。

And this one voter walks up to Beto with a beer in his hand, just like as though he's at some kind of relaxed Friday afternoon cocktail party.

这位选民手里拿着啤酒走到贝托面前，就像他正在参加某种轻松的周五下午鸡尾酒会一样。

And Weigel sees this, and jumps up and kind of elbows people out of the way.

韦格尔看到了这一点，跳了起来，用手肘将人们推开。

Sorry, I'm just trying to get a picture of the guy holding the beer while talking to him, just because it amuses me.

抱歉，我只是想拍一张那个拿着啤酒和他说话的人的照片，只是因为这让我觉得好笑。

Oh.

哦。

Yeah, sure.

是的，当然。

Zoe Chace It kind of exemplifies the special part we're in, in the election.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）：这有点体现了我们在选举中所处的特殊部分。

There's no Secret Service.

没有特勤局。

There are no real barriers.

不存在真正的障碍。

Anyone can just wander up to a presidential candidate.

任何人都可以随便走近总统候选人。

It's extremely intimate.

这是非常亲密的。

It's his favorite time of the presidential elections.

这是他最喜欢的总统选举时刻。

People are really close to each other.

人与人之间真的很亲近。

At one point at another event, two of the candidates, Tim Ryan and Jay Inslee, they ran right past each other.

在另一场活动中，两位候选人蒂姆·瑞恩和杰伊·英斯利从对方身边跑过。

You're back in the district.

你回到小区了。

Man 2 Go get them, Congressman Ryan!

男人 2 去抓他们吧，瑞安议员！

You did a great job, Governor!

州长，您做得很好！

I love your speech!

我喜欢你的演讲！

You're awesome!

你太棒了！

Man 3 Do it again!

男人3 再做一次！

I want to hear it one more time.

我想再听一遍。

It's almost like Weigel and the candidates are on some kind of a cruise or at a camp together.

这几乎就像韦格尔和候选人一起在某种巡航或营地中一样。

And they just bump into each other day after day, like, oh, hi again.

他们只是日复一日地碰面，就像，哦，又嗨了。

Oh, I'll see you tomorrow.

噢，明天见。

Oh, I'll see you later.

噢，稍后见。

Are you going to be at the pizza thing?

你要去吃披萨吗？

Thank you.

谢谢。

Man 2 Thanks a lot.

男人2 非常感谢。

Good to see you again.

很高兴再次见到你。

Yeah.

是的。

Good to see you.

很高兴见到你。

Man 2 See you at the-- I will not catch up with you in the run.

男人 2 再见——我不会在奔跑中追上你。

But I'll--

但我会——

Are you going to run it?

你要运行它吗？

Zoe Chace You also, in this phase of things, you get to see the candidates interacting in the world, the regular world.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）你也一样，在这个阶段，你会看到候选人在现实世界、常规世界中互动。

Right.

正确的。

Zoe Chace Regular people with just the most random stuff that you wouldn't normally see.

Zoe Chace 普通人，拥有你通常看不到的最随机的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

Zoe Chace I had this thing happened to me.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）我也遇到过这样的事。

I was checking into our hotel in Waterloo, Iowa, right?

我正在入住爱荷华州滑铁卢的酒店，对吗？

What kind of hotel?

什么样的酒店？

Zoe Chace Hampton Inn.

佐伊·切斯汉普顿酒店。

OK.

好的。

Zoe Chace And the girl who's checking us in, who's like 20-ish maybe-- she seems funny and smiley.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）还有那个帮我们登记的女孩，大概 20 岁左右——她看起来很有趣，总是面带微笑。

And she's really surprised to see these reporters there.

看到这些记者在那里，她真的很惊讶。

And it turns out she's never heard of the Iowa caucuses.

事实证明她从未听说过爱荷华州预选会议。

Even though the state is crawling with these candidates, it's totally possible to lead your life and miss it.

尽管该州充斥着这些候选人，但完全有可能错过它。

So Weigel explains it to her.

于是韦格尔向她解释了这一点。

Yeah, instead of a presidential primary here--

是的，这里不是总统初选——

All these presidential candidates for the nation to vote, blah, blah, blah.

所有这些总统候选人都供全国投票，等等，等等。

We go upstairs.

我们上楼。

But my key is demagnetized, so I go back downstairs.

但我的钥匙已经消磁了，所以我回到楼下。

I leave all my stuff, including the recorder, there.

我把所有东西都留在那里，包括录音机。

And when I get downstairs, I see Beto just standing there.

当我下楼时，我看到贝托站在那里。

And he's trying to get a free bottle of water from the girl.

他正试图从女孩那里得到一瓶免费的水。

And I'm like, Beto?

我想，贝托？

You've never met him.

你从未见过他。

Zoe Chace No. And I say to him, Beto, tell her what you're doing here in Iowa.

佐伊·切斯 不。我对他说，贝托，告诉她你在爱荷华州做什么。

And she looks at him, and she goes, are you running for president, in this totally sarcastic way.

她看着他，然后问道，你是在竞选总统吗？用这种完全讽刺的方式。

Like of course you're not.

就像你当然不是一样。

And he goes, actually, yes, I am, which is just a weird answer to that question.

他说，实际上，是的，我是，这只是对这个问题的一个奇怪的答案。

And she jumps up, goes, yes, queen!

她跳起来，说，是的，女王！

And he's like totally taken aback and is like, thank you so much.

他完全吃了一惊，然后说，非常感谢。

And she goes, I hope you win the presidency-- like not very sincere.

她说，我希望你赢得总统职位——但不太真诚。

And so this is just the world that Weigel was marinating in.

这就是韦格尔所沉浸的世界。

He knows them all so thoroughly at this point.

此时此刻，他已经对他们了如指掌了。

He knows them as thoroughly as he knows the gas stations in Iowa.

他对它们的了解就像对爱荷华州加油站的了解一样透彻。

We were at a bar.

我们当时在一家酒吧。

He starts talking about the jokes that candidates tell when they're out on [INAUDIBLE].

他开始谈论候选人在[听不清]节目中讲的笑话。

The horrible spouse joke.

可怕的配偶笑话。

Whereas, Warren has a riff where she talks about dropping out of school.

而沃伦则有一段即兴表演谈到了辍学。

It's like, fell in love.

就像，坠入爱河。

Woo-hoo.

呜呼。

Got married, Woo-hoo.

结婚了，呜呼。

Had a baby.

生了孩子。

Woo.

呜。

And she just-- it's like a Simpsons joke, almost.

她只是——这几乎就像辛普森一家的笑话。

She imitates getting less and less excited about her bad life decisions.

她模仿自己对自己糟糕的人生决定越来越不感兴趣。

She's like, and then I met my first husband.

她就像，然后我遇到了我的第一任丈夫。

Never a good idea when you have to number them, things like that.

当你必须对它们进行编号之类的事情时，这绝对不是一个好主意。

My favorite Klobuchar joke is, she talks about how she's Slovenian American.

我最喜欢的克洛布彻笑话是，她谈论她是斯洛文尼亚裔美国人。

And it's like, and for years, I was the most famous Slovenian American in politics.

多年来，我一直是政界最著名的斯洛文尼亚裔美国人。

But then Melania Trump arrived, and you know what?

但后来梅拉尼娅·特朗普来了，你知道吗？

It's like looking in a mirror.

就像照镜子一样。

You laugh.

你笑了。

It's like a [INAUDIBLE].

这就像[听不清]。

But Biden does the, my wife is always right joke.

但拜登做到了，我妻子的笑话总是对的。

Who else does that?

还有谁这样做？

People mostly learn to not do that.

人们大多学会不这样做。

For today on our program, we're in this unusual political moment.

在今天的节目中，我们正处于这个不寻常的政治时刻。

The Democrats have even more people running for president than the Republicans did last time.

民主党竞选总统的人数甚至比共和党上次还要多。

25 people-- what is that?

25个人——那是什么？

Today in our show, we are not going to cover all 25.

今天在我们的节目中，我们不会涵盖全部 25 个。

What we're going to do is we're going to drop in here and there.

我们要做的就是到处走走。

My sense is that, at this point, everyone is still getting to know who these people are.

我的感觉是，目前每个人仍在了解这些人是谁。

And so hopefully, you will get in close with some of them and get an impression of them.

希望您能够与其中一些人近距离接触并获得他们的印象。

And what we're especially interested in in this show is all of the candidates at the bottom.

我们对这个节目特别感兴趣的是所有垫底的候选人。

That's the story of this particular moment in the election, is all those people between 0% and 1% in the polls who might still have a chance trying to get noticed and break out of the pack, and join the front runners, which is just an enormously difficult thing to do.

这就是选举中这个特定时刻的故事，所有那些在民意调查中处于 0% 到 1% 之间的人可能仍然有机会试图引起注意并脱颖而出，加入领先者行列，这是一件非常困难的事情。

And it's just right now starting to shift.

现在情况才刚刚开始发生转变。

How do you get noticed and rise above 1% in this pack of 25?

如何在这 25 名员工中获得关注并晋升到 1% 以上？

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act 1.

第 1 幕。

Zoe Chace No. No acts today.

佐伊·切斯 不。今天没有行动。

Let's just drive around.

我们就开车到处走走吧。

So bossy.

太霸道了。

All right, ma'am.

好的，女士。

So Zoe, so 25 candidates-- and this political operative explained this to me, and I found it a helpful way to look at this.

佐伊，25 名候选人——这位政治特工向我解释了这一点，我发现这是看待这一问题的一种有用的方式。

He said that the best way to picture what is happening right now is that there are four front runners-- Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris.

他说，描绘现在正在发生的事情的最佳方式是有四位领跑者——乔·拜登、伯尼·桑德斯、伊丽莎白·沃伦和卡马拉·哈里斯。

And then depending on how you count it, Pete Buttigieg is in there, too.

然后取决于你如何计算，皮特·布蒂吉格也在那里。

Their poll numbers are way higher than anybody else.

他们的民意调查数字比其他任何人都高得多。

And also, they get most of the donations and most of the press attention, which then generates more donations and more press attention in a kind of self-perpetuating cycle that sucks the air out that all the others want to breathe.

而且，他们获得了大部分的捐款和大部分的媒体关注，然后又产生了更多的捐款和更多的媒体关注，形成一种自我延续的循环，吸走了所有其他人都想呼吸的空气。

So that's them.

这就是他们。

And then below those four or five people, there's basically everyone else in the pack of 25, most of them struggling to break 1%.

然后在这四五个人之下，基本上是 25 人中的其他人，其中大多数人都在努力突破 1%。

And it seems just very interesting what is happening with them.

他们身上发生的事情似乎非常有趣。

And so, Zoe, you watched them trying to figure that out.

所以，佐伊，你看着他们试图弄清楚这一点。

OK.

好的。

So for example, take John Hickenlooper.

以约翰·希肯卢珀为例。

Former governor of Colorado.

科罗拉多州前州长。

Zoe Chace His polling is now at less than 1%.

Zoe Chace 他的民调目前低于 1%。

If you haven't heard of him, that's probably why.

如果您还没有听说过他，这可能就是原因。

He cannot draw a crowd by himself.

他一个人无法吸引人群。

If he put out a sign in Iowa today, Hickenlooper Speaks, Please RSVP, probably nobody would come to that event.

如果他今天在爱荷华州张贴“希肯卢珀讲话，请回复”的标语，可能没有人会来参加那个活动。

Crickets, right?

蟋蟀，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

OK.

好的。

Zoe Chace Yeah.

佐伊·查斯 是的。

So he does these-- they're called retail stops, when a politician tours a factory or whatever.

所以他做了这些——当政客参观工厂或其他地方时，它们被称为零售站。

So right now, we're at this brand new distillery in Des Moines, me and Dave Weigel.

现在，我和戴夫·韦格尔 (Dave Weigel) 在得梅因的这家全新酿酒厂里。

--because this stuff is actually kind of fun to watch.

——因为这些东西看起来确实很有趣。

And we walk in.

我们走进去。

Hickenlooper and this one elderly Iowa voter are sitting at the bar, the brand new bar in the brand new distillery.

希肯卢珀和这位爱荷华州的一位老年选民坐在酒吧里，这是一家全新酿酒厂里的全新酒吧。

It's a totally staged photo op.

这完全是一场摆拍的拍照活动。

There are about 20 reporters in a semicircle around them.

大约有20名记者围成半圆。

But obviously, if you look through the camera lens, it looks like it's just Hickenlooper and the voter.

但显然，如果你通过摄像机镜头看，看起来就只有希肯卢珀和选民。

What a pleasure.

多么高兴啊。

I can't tell you.

我不能告诉你。

This is an absolute honor.

这是绝对的荣誉。

You're running for what?

你跑是为了什么？

Zoe Chace The old guy's like, you're running for what?

Zoe Chace 老家伙说，你跑是为了什么？

The highest office of the land-- President of the United States.

国家的最高职位——美国总统。

Oh, really?

哦真的吗？

OK.

好的。

John Hickenlooper So I was an entrepreneur.

约翰·希肯卢珀（John Hickenlooper） 所以我是一名企业家。

I built brew pubs all over the-- mostly over the Midwest.

我在各地建造了啤酒酒吧——主要是在中西部。

But I built the biggest brew pub in the country, and Denver was my first one.

但我建造了全国最大的啤酒酒吧，丹佛是我的第一家。

Always in abandoned warehouses.

总是在废弃的仓库里。

I won the Award of Honor from the National Trust for Historic Preservation.

我获得了国家历史保护信托基金颁发的荣誉奖。

I don't know what that's good for.

我不知道那有什么好处。

It's so strange that these guys actually-- they do have to kind of just brag about themselves to people, huh?

奇怪的是，这些家伙实际上——他们确实不得不向人们吹嘘自己，不是吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass Like people don't know who they are.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 就像人们不知道自己是谁一样。

I mean, not to be mean about it, but people [INAUDIBLE] don't know who they are.

我的意思是，并非刻薄，但人们[听不清]不知道他们是谁。

So they just have to say, here's all the stuff I've done.

所以他们只能说，这就是我所做的所有事情。

Even he gets kind of self-conscious about it.

就连他自己也对此感到有点不自在。

I call it the fundamental nonsense of Washington, or place of common sense.

我称其为华盛顿的根本胡言乱语，或常识之地。

That's my shtick.

这就是我的绝招。

But anyway--

但无论如何——

Good luck, the old guy says to him.

祝你好运，老人对他说。

20 people are recording this, and no one is going to use any of this.

20 个人正在录制这个，但没有人会使用其中的任何一个。

No one's going to use these quotes, right?

没有人会使用这些引言，对吗？

We move on to a distillery tour.

我们继续参观酿酒厂。

Hickenlooper has tons of opinions about that.

希肯卢珀对此有很多看法。

Remember, he was in this business.

请记住，他从事这个行业。

I always call it the Haagen-Dazs effect, which is--

我总是称其为哈根达斯效应，即——

No one is going to use any of this either.

也没有人会使用其中任何一个。

Instead, the reporters just wait til the end.

相反，记者们只是等到最后。

They gather around, they ask him questions about Trump.

他们聚集在一起，向他询问有关特朗普的问题。

That stuff, they might use.

他们可能会使用那些东西。

So this whole thing, this whole tour, all of it is just for pictures.

所以这整件事，这整个旅行，所有这一切都只是为了拍照。

Yeah.

是的。

What the campaign hopes for is that, out of the 25 candidates, tonight viewers will see a picture somewhere of John Hickenlooper drinking a beer in Iowa.

竞选活动希望，今晚观众能在 25 名候选人中看到约翰·希肯卢珀 (John Hickenlooper) 在爱荷华州某处喝啤酒的照片。

I don't see how that's going to make him president.

我不明白这将如何让他成为总统。

That is not going to be enough to take him out of the 1% and put him up there with the front runners.

这还不足以让他脱离 1% 的行列并跻身领先者行列。

Iowa, though-- voter by voter.

不过，爱荷华州——每个选民都投票。

These 1%-ers, they're also going around Iowa talking, and talking, and talking to the actual voters, the real human beings who go to the caucuses and vote.

这些 1% 的人，他们也在爱荷华州四处交谈，与真正的选民交谈，与真正参加预选会议并投票的人交谈。

And in order to do that, the candidates who can't draw a crowd on their own, one thing those guys do is go to local Democratic clubs.

为了做到这一点，那些无法自己吸引人群的候选人所做的一件事就是去当地的民主党俱乐部。

The idea is you do these Democratic clubs for a while, county Democratic clubs, and then you get popular enough to graduate out and draw a crowd on your own.

这个想法是，你在这些民主党俱乐部中工作一段时间，县民主党俱乐部，然后你就会变得足够受欢迎，毕业并自己吸引人群。

Ah.

啊。

Zoe Chace Like Pete Buttigieg, he had to do the Democratic clubs for about a month.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）和皮特·布蒂吉格（Pete Buttigieg）一样，他必须在民主党俱乐部工作大约一个月。

He went around introducing himself, and then he graduated out.

他四处自我介绍，然后就毕业了。

Now he can draw a crowd on his own.

现在他自己就能吸引一群人了。

Most of them have not.

他们中的大多数人还没有。

I remember-- there's a Delaney bumper sticker.

我记得——保险杠上有一张德莱尼贴纸。

They're real.

它们是真实的。

Whoa.

哇哦。

Dave Weigel There was one that was--

戴夫·韦格尔（Dave Weigel）有一个是——

It could be.

可能是。

Zoe Chace John Delaney, also at less than 1%, rich guy and former congressman from Maryland.

Zoe Chace John Delaney，支持率也低于 1%，是马里兰州的富人和前国会议员。

He's doing a meet-and-greet with the Clive County Democrats at Wobbly Boots Barbecue.

他正在 Wobbly Boots Barbecue 与克莱夫县民主党人进行会面。

So I'm sure this is going to surprise you.

所以我相信这会让你感到惊讶。

I actually believe I have the best [INAUDIBLE].

我实际上相信我拥有最好的[听不清]。

[LAUGHTER] But I think what makes it best is it's different, and I can get it done.

[笑声]但我认为它最好的地方在于它是不同的，而且我可以完成它。

Delaney's moderate.

德莱尼性格温和。

He's not into Medicare for All.

他不喜欢全民医疗保险。

He's not into the Green New Deal.

他不喜欢绿色新政。

Even his climate change plan is all wrapped up in red, white, and blue bunting.

甚至他的气候变化计划也被红、白、蓝彩旗包裹着。

Because we're solving the problem the old-fashioned American way by inventing and building.

因为我们正在以老式的美国方式通过发明和建造来解决问题。

The room is packed, actually.

事实上，房间里挤满了人。

People here are eating John Delaney up.

这里的人们正在吞噬约翰·德莱尼。

So it's working.

所以它正在发挥作用。

Zoe Chace Yeah.

佐伊·查斯 是的。

I came to see exactly this, one of these 1%-ers winning people over to their side.

我正是看到了这一点，其中一个 1% 的人赢得了人们的支持。

And Delaney is betting his chips on Iowa.

德莱尼将筹码押在爱荷华州。

He's got eight offices there.

他在那里有八个办公室。

That's more than anyone else, as of a couple weeks ago, anyway.

无论如何，截至几周前，这比其他任何人都多。

He's been there the most times.

他去那里的次数最多。

We ran into him in the airport on the way there.

我们在去机场的路上遇到了他。

It was his 29th trip.

这是他的第 29 次旅行。

He's doing the purist version of this play on the campaign trail, a Jimmy Carter play.

他在竞选活动中表演了这部戏剧的纯粹版本，吉米·卡特的戏剧。

It's basically get a huge surge by doing great in the Iowa caucuses, the first in the nation.

它基本上是通过在爱荷华州预选会议上表现出色而获得巨大的增长，这是全国第一次。

And the way you do that is voter by voter.

这样做的方式是逐个投票的。

That's what he's doing out here.

这就是他在这里所做的。

That's what Carter did.

卡特就是这么做的。

Carter was the first candidate who ever did that.

卡特是第一位这样做的候选人。

They didn't have a caucus before, or they didn't have a caucus people paid attention to before.

他们以前没有举行过党团会议，或者说他们以前没有举行过人们关注的党团会议。

He lived here.

他住在这里。

Came in famously second to uncommitted.

名列第二，仅次于未承诺。

It was like uncommitted, 30, Carter, 25 or something.

就像未承诺的，30岁，卡特，25岁之类的。

And people were like, oh, he beat all the much more famous senators.

人们就像，哦，他击败了所有更有名的参议员。

Who is this guy?

这家伙是谁？

So that was more than 40 years ago.

那是40多年前的事了。

But it's still like--

但它仍然像——

So everybody's doing this Carter play.

所以每个人都在演卡特的戏。

That's how you could think about it.

你可以这样想。

A lot of them.

很多。

Zoe Chace I talked to one voter.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）我与一位选民交谈过。

He liked this meeting so much, he said he might caucus for Delaney.

他非常喜欢这次会议，他说他可能会为德莱尼举行党团会议。

He might.

他可能会。

He's still shopping around.

他还在四处逛逛。

But the number of people shopping has dropped since the first debate.

但自第一次辩论以来，购物的人数有所下降。

And the window's closing for the 1%-ers.

对于 1% 的人来说，窗口已经关闭。

The debates-- they are probably the biggest chance that any of these underdogs get to rise out of the underdog pack and come barking to the forefront.

辩论——这可能是这些失败者从失败者群体中崛起并走到最前线的最大机会。

The next one's at the end of the month.

下一次是月底。

There has been one so far, of course.

当然，到目前为止已经有一个了。

And two days before the first debate, the team for one of the candidates, as you know, Zoe, let me watch a full day of debate prep.

在第一次辩论前两天，其中一位候选人的团队，如你所知，佐伊，让我观看了一整天的辩论准备。

And by sheer luck, it was the candidate that most of the media declared the breakout star of the first night of the debate, Julián Castro.

幸运的是，大多数媒体都宣称朱利安·卡斯特罗是辩论第一晚的突破明星。

Zoe, you ready to hear the story?

佐伊，你准备好听这个故事了吗？

Obviously.

明显地。

Ira Glass OK.

艾拉·格拉斯 好的。

Here is the team that got him to victory.

这是帮助他取得胜利的球队。

OK, so the three of you, have you ever done debate prep before?

好的，你们三个以前做过辩论准备吗？

No. Ira Glass Meet Maya Rupert, Jen Fiore, and Sawyer Hackett, the campaign manager, communications advisor, and national press secretary for Julián Castro.

不。艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 认识玛雅·鲁珀特 (Maya Rupert)、詹·菲奥雷 (Jen Fiore) 和索耶·哈克特 (Sawyer Hackett)，他们是朱利安·卡斯特罗 (Julian Castro) 的竞选经理、公关顾问兼国家新闻秘书。

Castro was mayor of San Antonio, then ran the Department of Housing and Urban Development under President Obama.

卡斯特罗曾任圣安东尼奥市市长，随后在奥巴马总统领导下负责住房和城市发展部。

They all worked for Castro there.

他们都在那里为卡斯特罗工作。

If you add it up, they had done three full days of debate prep before this one, the one that I saw.

如果你加起来的话，在我看到的这场辩论之前，他们已经做了整整三天的辩论准备。

And they were going to do one more after that.

在那之后他们还打算再做一次。

That is how important this is to them.

这就是这对他们来说有多重要。

All right, so this is what we've got on the agenda for this morning.

好的，这就是我们今天早上的议程。

We're in a hotel conference room in Miami.

我们在迈阿密的一家酒店会议室。

All over the walls are these big pages torn from flip charts, each with a different topic and then three or four possible talking points for the candidate to use in the debate that they worked out in previous sessions.

墙上到处都是从活动挂图上撕下来的大页，每页都有一个不同的主题，然后是三到四个可能的谈话要点，供候选人在他们在之前的会议中制定的辩论中使用。

The guy talking is deputy campaign manager, Derek Eadon, who is running these sessions.

说话的人是竞选副经理德里克·伊登（Derek Eadon），他负责主持这些会议。

And he's up in front by the easel with the flip chart.

他站在前面的画架旁边，上面放着挂图。

And the candidate is standing at one of five podiums in front of the room.

候选人正站在房间前面的五个讲台之一上。

He's in jeans and a white dress shirt, sleeves rolled up, immaculately clean, white Adidas, iced tea, which, by the way, he told the New York Times is his comfort food on the road.

他穿着牛仔裤和白色衬衫，袖子卷起来，一尘不染，白色阿迪达斯，冰茶，顺便说一句，他告诉《纽约时报》，这是他在路上的舒适食物。

And then we want to talk through a little bit of closing statement.

然后我们想谈谈一些结束语。

Castro's staff, I should say, is deeply aware that most voters still do not know who Julián Castro is.

我应该说，卡斯特罗的工作人员深深地意识到，大多数选民仍然不知道朱利安·卡斯特罗是谁。

And they told me that success in the first debate, to them, would be something very basic-- that voters would notice Castro, that he's in the race.

他们告诉我，对他们来说，第一场辩论的成功将是非常基本的事情——选民会注意到卡斯特罗，他会参加竞选。

Here's Jen Fiore, his senior communications advisor.

这是他的高级传播顾问 Jen Fiore 的报道。

Maybe it changes their math, right?

也许这会改变他们的数学，对吗？

Maybe they were supporting one person.

也许他们正在支持一个人。

They thought, oh, but wait.

他们想，哦，但是等等。

But wait.

但是等等。

I heard a lot of interesting stuff from Julián Castro, and I've got to shift my math.

我从朱利安·卡斯特罗那里听到了很多有趣的事情，我必须改变我的数学。

One of the flip charts on the wall was, "Top Five Takeaways," meaning the top five things that they want voters to take away from this debate.

墙上的活动挂图之一是“五大要点”，意思是他们希望选民从这场辩论中得到的五大要点。

They read, "I like him," "he won," "game changer," "can handle his own," and "win/beat Trump."

他们写着“我喜欢他”、“他赢了”、“游戏规则改变者”、“能处理好自己的事情”和“赢得/击败特朗普”。

So OK.

那么好吧。

How do you get voters to change the math?

你如何让选民改变数学？

If you think about it, the debate means 10 candidates standing on stage for 120 minutes, two hours.

如果你想一想，辩论意味着10名候选人站在台上120分钟，两个小时。

So that's 10 minutes per candidate.

每位候选人的发言时间为 10 分钟。

But you take away commercial breaks and questions.

但你去掉了广告插播和问题。

What it leaves, the average talking time for each candidate is actually eight minutes-- eight minutes to implant yourselves into the brains of millions of people.

剩下的，每个候选人的平均讲话时间实际上是八分钟——用八分钟将自己植入数百万人的大脑中。

Eight minutes-- though that is just the average.

八分钟——尽管这只是平均值。

Not everybody gets that much, which is actually the thing that Castro is most afraid of going into the debate.

并不是每个人都能得到那么多，这实际上是卡斯特罗最害怕参与辩论的事情。

He says they've studied these moderators.

他说他们已经研究了这些主持人。

And they don't have a track record of actually enforcing time very well.

而且他们并没有很好地执行时间的记录。

So you've got to be mindful.

所以你必须要留心。

OK, if they're going to let people go, the worst case scenario is not that I am flat, it's that I don't get any time, whatsoever.

好吧，如果他们要放人，最糟糕的情况不是我表现平平，而是我没有时间，无论如何。

Because people got into a skirmish, and other people butted in.

因为人们发生了小冲突，其他人也介入了。

And all of a sudden, the time's gone.

突然之间，时间就过去了。

Some candidates just end up getting five minutes.

有些候选人最终只有五分钟的时间。

So you have limited time, and you have no idea what they're going to ask you about.

所以你的时间有限，而且你不知道他们会问你什么。

And so you have to prepare perfect, pithy answers for every imaginable question.

因此，你必须为每个可以想象到的问题准备完美、简洁的答案。

And what perfect means-- Julián's staff wants him to work three specific elements into each of those answers if he can.

完美意味着什么——朱利安的工作人员希望他在可能的情况下将三个具体元素融入到每个答案中。

They want some of his personal story-- raised by a single mother, working class neighborhood, that kind of thing.

他们想要一些他的个人故事——由单亲母亲抚养长大，工人阶级社区，诸如此类的事情。

They want him to talk about the stuff that he has done in previous jobs in government-- prove that he's capable.

他们希望他谈论他之前在政府工作中所做的事情——证明他有能力。

And of course, they want him to talk about what he's going to do next if he gets the job of president.

当然，他们希望他谈论如果他当选总统他下一步要做什么。

All three things in each answer.

每个答案中的所有三件事。

So for instance, when they're hammering out an answer about climate and the Green New Deal, Castro, he starts pitching policy ideas.

例如，当他们敲定有关气候和绿色新政的答案时，卡斯特罗开始提出政策想法。

I think here, we want to stress-- we're going to lead on combating climate change, get to net zero, create jobs in the new energy--

我想在这里，我们想强调——我们将带头应对气候变化、实现净零排放、在新能源领域创造就业机会——

Then Jen jumps in.

然后Jen跳了进来。

Talk more about your experience.

多谈谈你的经历。

Right, but not a lot of an impact.

是的，但影响不大。

Maybe nobody on the stage, other than maybe Governor Inslee, has actually done the work to help people recover the way that you have, right, as HUD secretary.

也许除了英斯利州长之外，台上没有人真正做过帮助人们恢复你作为 HUD 部长的工作方式的工作。

I remember the trip that you took to Louisiana after that horrendous flood, and--

我记得在那场可怕的洪水之后你去了路易斯安那州，而且——

Talk about what you've done on climate change, she urges him, which he then incorporates into his next run-through of the answer.

她敦促他谈谈你在气候变化问题上所做的事情，然后他将其纳入他的下一次答案中。

As Housing Secretary, I worked to make sure that communities could rebuild from natural disasters in a more sustainable way.

作为住房部长，我努力确保社区能够以更可持续的方式从自然灾害中重建。

And as president, the first thing that I would do--

作为总统，我要做的第一件事——

Notice the pivot there from his previous experience to his plans for the future?

注意到他之前的经历与未来计划的转变了吗？

What makes all this so tricky is that under the rules of the debate, he has to finish his answer in just 60 seconds.

让这一切变得如此棘手的是，根据辩论规则，他必须在短短 60 秒内完成他的回答。

To figure out how to fit everything in, basically, Castro answers the same question over--

为了弄清楚如何将所有内容融入其中，卡斯特罗基本上回答了同样的问题——

I grew up with a grandmother that had diabetes.

我和一位患有糖尿病的祖母一起长大。

--and over-- Julian Castro I grew up with a grandmother who had diabetes.

——还有——朱利安·卡斯特罗 我和一位患有糖尿病的祖母一起长大。

--and over-- Julian Castro I grew up with a grandmother who had diabetes.

——还有——朱利安·卡斯特罗 我和一位患有糖尿病的祖母一起长大。

--and over.

——结束了。

Julian Castro You know, I grew up with a grandmother who had diabetes.

朱利安·卡斯特罗（Julian Castro）你知道，我和一位患有糖尿病的祖母一起长大。

In case it isn't clear, each of those times, he talks until he reaches one minute.

如果不清楚的话，他每次都会讲到一分钟。

And this distinction between physical health care and mental health care.

这就是身体保健和心理保健之间的区别。

[TIMER BEEPS] So was that a minute, or was it mistimed?

[计时器蜂鸣声] 那是一分钟，还是时间不对？

That seemed like a forever minute.

那似乎是永恒的一分钟。

[LAUGHS] Yeah.

[笑]是的。

They spend hours doing this.

他们花了几个小时来做​​这件事。

It's tedium chewing over how to best fill those precious eight minutes they're going to get.

思考如何最好地利用他们将要获得的宝贵的八分钟时间是一件乏味的事情。

And of course, the one politician that it's hard to picture doing this is the public speaker who improvises his way through stadium speeches and meet-and-greets at the Korean Demilitarized Zone-- the guy who got his job specifically by not doing this and is beloved by lots of people for not talking like this, the man that Castro hopes is going to be facing off against next year-- Donald Trump.

当然，很难想象这样做的政治家是一位在体育场演讲和朝鲜非军事区见面会中即兴发挥的公共演讲者——这个人就是因为不这样做而得到了这份工作，并且因为不这样说话而受到很多人的爱戴，卡斯特罗希望明年将与唐纳德·特朗普对峙。

To break things up during the day, the staff organizes a surprise for Castro, just a little breather to lighten things up.

为了打破白天的气氛，工作人员为卡斯特罗组织了一个惊喜，让大家稍微喘口气，让气氛轻松起来。

Derek gets out his phone, and people crowd around him.

德里克拿出手机，人们围在他周围。

We can't see just yet.

我们现在还看不到。

Ira Glass It's a call with the Sklar brothers, the comedians and actors, Jason and Randy Sklar, who like Castro.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 这是与斯克拉兄弟（喜剧演员兼演员杰森·斯克拉和兰迪·斯克拉）的通话，他们喜欢卡斯特罗。

And they've decided that they wanted to pitch jokes for him to use during the debate.

他们决定给他讲一些笑话，供他在辩论中使用。

The campaign was like, sure, why not?

竞选活动就像是，当然，为什么不呢？

That's good.

那挺好的。

Come take a seat.

过来坐吧。

We've got Secretary Castro right here.

国务卿卡斯特罗就在这里。

We're in the middle--

我们在中间——

Castro met the Sklar brothers when they had him on their podcast.

当斯克拉兄弟出现在他们的播客上时，卡斯特罗就认识了他们。

The Sklars are identical twins.

斯克拉兄弟是同卵双胞胎。

And important fact about Julián Castro-- he has an identical twin brother, who's also in politics-- Congressman Joaquin Castro.

关于朱利安·卡斯特罗的一个重要事实是——他有一个同样从事政坛的同卵双胞胎兄弟——国会议员华金·卡斯特罗。

You were great on our podcast.

你在我们的播客上表现得很好。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Hey, thanks a lot.

嘿，非常感谢。

Sklar Brothers And we were thinking about things that you can either take or leave, but it's just thoughts in our brain that you put into your own speak.

Sklar Brothers 我们正在考虑一些你可以带走或离开的东西，但这只是我们大脑中的想法，你可以用自己的语言表达出来。

And so, OK.

所以，好吧。

So do you want to hear what we have so far?

那么你想听听我们到目前为止有什么吗？

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Go ahead.

前进。

I'm getting a pad and paper down right here.

我在这里拿了一本便笺簿和纸。

This is just a general one.

这只是一般情况。

Some folks in this race are against Medicare.

这场竞选中的一些人反对医疗保险。

I'm for Medicare not only because I think it has value, but also out of respect for some of my older opponents, like Bernie and Biden.

我支持医疗保险不仅因为我认为它有价值，而且也是出于对我的一些老对手的尊重，比如伯尼和拜登。

[LAUGHTER] Julian Castro That's so true.

[笑声] 朱利安·卡斯特罗 确实如此。

They're going to need it.

他们会需要它。

They're going to need it now.

他们现在就需要它。

Hard to imagine a more receptive room for that joke, just [INAUDIBLE] at the time with the front runners in the race.

很难想象还有比这更容易接受这个笑话的地方了，只是[听不清]当时在比赛中处于领先地位。

Here's another.

这是另一个。

There are more people on this debate stage than at a Trump inauguration.

这次辩论舞台上的人数比特朗普就职典礼上的人数还要多。

Yeah, like there's a lot of people up here.

是的，好像这里有很多人。

I mean, the height-- how tall are you?

我的意思是，身高——你有多高？

You're our height.

你是我们的身高。

Yeah, 5' 7" or 5' 8".

是的，5英尺7英寸或5英尺8英寸。

Yeah.

是的。

Sklar Brothers OK, 5' 7", 5' 8".

斯克拉兄弟好，5英尺7英寸，5英尺8英寸。

So you're our height.

所以你是我们的身高。

So you're standing next to Cory Booker, who's like 6' 2".

所以你站在科里·布克旁边，他身高大约 6 英尺 2 英寸。

6' 2", yeah.

6英尺2英寸，是的。

Sklar Brothers [INAUDIBLE] is 6' 4", and de Blasio is 6' 5".

斯克拉兄弟 [听不清] 身高 6 英尺 4 英寸，白思豪身高 6 英尺 5 英寸。

So you can say, now I'm standing up here, you can see that I'm not as tall as these guys.

所以你可以说，现在我站在这里，你可以看到我没有这些家伙高。

But I went to Trump's doctor-- I went to Trump's doctor, and he said I was 6 foot 3.

但我去看了特朗普的医生——我去看了特朗普的医生，他说我身高 6 英尺 3 英寸。

The Sklars went through jokes, all of them pretty mean, about candidates Booker, de Blasio, Ryan, Moulton, Klobuchar, and Inslee.

斯克拉夫妇讲过一些关于候选人布克、白思豪、瑞安、莫尔顿、克洛布查尔和英斯利的笑话，所有笑话都相当刻薄。

And can I just say, respect for anybody who can make a joke about Moulton, Ryan, or Inslee?

我可以说，尊重任何能拿莫尔顿、瑞安或英斯利开玩笑的人吗？

None of these jokes are going to make the cut, Castro's staff tells me later.

卡斯特罗的工作人员后来告诉我，这些笑话都不会被采纳。

Those kinds of jokes just aren't Castro's style.

这类笑话不是卡斯特罗的风格。

The one joke they could imagine the candidate actually telling onstage at the debate-- I have to say, it really surprised me-- the one about how he's kind of short.

他们可以想象候选人在辩论台上实际讲的一个笑话——我不得不说，这真的让我感到惊讶——关于他有点矮的笑话。

Of course, the other thing that Julián has to practice is reacting to all the other candidates and the moderators.

当然，朱利安必须练习的另一件事是对所有其他候选人和主持人做出反应。

They study videos of his opponents, and they do this.

他们研究对手的视频，然后这样做。

Hello, and welcome to sunny Miami, Florida, for the first Democratic debate of the 2020 presidential cycle.

大家好，欢迎来到阳光明媚的佛罗里达州迈阿密，参加 2020 年总统周期的第一场民主党辩论。

I'm Rachel Maddow.

我是雷切尔·玛多。

I'm a lot of people.

我是很多人。

Ira Glass It's a mock debate session.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）这是一场模拟辩论会。

Sawyer and a staffer named Millie play the moderators.

索耶和一位名叫米莉的工作人员扮演主持人。

Four other staffers stand at podiums flanking Castro's.

另外四名工作人员站在卡斯特罗两侧的讲台上。

The men are now in ties and jackets.

男人们现在打着领带，穿着夹克。

They want to give Castro the chance to run his answers under debate conditions where he's going to have to wait for his opponents to speak, where he might have to field answers that kind of poke at him.

他们希望让卡斯特罗有机会在辩论条件下发表自己的答案，在这种情况下，他将不得不等待对手发言，他可能不得不提出对他来说是一种刺激的答案。

And I have to say, it was totally charming and fascinating how accurate they tried to be at playing the other candidates in the debate.

我不得不说，他们在辩论中试图准确地与其他候选人打交道，这是非常迷人和令人着迷的。

Out on the road, they've watched these politicians deliver the same lines again and again.

在路上，他们看到这些政客一次又一次地发表同样的言论。

So when Derek, who is playing Cory Booker, gets a question about gun violence, he has Booker's lines down cold.

因此，当扮演科里·布克的德里克被问到有关枪支暴力的问题时，他对布克的台词冷淡了。

I've been waking up in the middle of the night hearing gunshot.

我经常在半夜听到枪声而醒来。

I released my policy not far from where Shahad Smith had been killed.

我在距离沙哈德·史密斯被杀的地方不远的地方发布了我的政策。

When a staffer playing Beto O'Rourke is asked about Castro's ability to connect with Latinos and to speak Spanish-- apparently, Castro is not as good at Spanish as Beto is-- fake Beto responds fully in character.

当扮演贝托·奥罗克的一名工作人员被问及卡斯特罗与拉丁裔人沟通以及说西班牙语的能力时——显然，卡斯特罗的西班牙语不如贝托——假贝托的回答完全符合他的性格。

Look, Lester, I think it's pretty offensive that you and others continue to say that just because someone doesn't speak Spanish means they can't connect with the Latino vote.

听着，莱斯特，我认为你和其他人继续说仅仅因为某人不会说西班牙语就意味着他们无法与拉丁裔投票联系起来，这是相当令人反感的。

There's many ways to connect it.

有很多方法可以连接它。

For example, Amy and I are still living in El Paso.

例如，艾米和我仍然住在埃尔帕索。

I've grown up my entire life there.

我的一生都是在那里长大的。

And so I know the unique challenges that our border community faces.

所以我知道我们的边境社区面临的独特挑战。

In the mock debate, Castro does a relaxed, solid job deploying the answers that he's been working on.

在模拟辩论中，卡斯特罗轻松而扎实地部署了他一直在研究的答案。

But he also gets to practice interrupting other candidates.

但他也开始练习打断其他候选人。

And this is important because, again, he is worried that other candidates might hog the stage, and he won't get much time or many questions directed at him.

这很重要，因为他再次担心其他候选人可能会霸占舞台，而他不会得到太多时间或针对他的许多问题。

And Castro told me that his natural inclination is not to interrupt.

卡斯特罗告诉我，他的自然倾向是不打断。

I mean, for me, I'm not naturally the guy in a group that has to talk all the time, like they would call gunners in law school.

我的意思是，对我来说，我天生不是一个必须一直说话的人，就像他们在法学院称呼枪手一样。

You know gunners?

你认识枪手吗？

People that would, in law school classes, that basically would be the ones always trying to answer the question that a professor would throw out.

在法学院课堂上，基本上就是那些总是试图回答教授抛出的问题的人。

That's not me.

那不是我。

I don't know if that's spin or not.

我不知道这是不是旋转。

But to make sure he does get to talk in the debate, he's keeping in his back pocket two little speeches that he knows are really strong, that if needs be, he's going to bust in and interrupt somebody with.

但为了确保他确实能在辩论中发言，他在自己的口袋里放了两篇小演讲，他知道这些演讲非常有力，如果需要的话，他会闯入并打断某人。

They're actually listed.

他们确实被列出来了。

These two speeches are listed on a flip chart page on the wall that is titled "Interruptions." One of them is listed as "Police Brutality." And in the mock debate, he practices jumping in on another candidate's answer, the guy playing de Blasio, to deliver this.

这两场演讲列在墙上题为“中断”的活动挂图页上。其中之一被列为“警察暴力”。在模拟辩论中，他练习跳入另一位候选人（扮演白思豪的人）的答案来发表这一观点。

I've been able to deal with this as an executive of America's biggest city.

作为美国最大城市的一名高管，我有能力处理这个问题。

Small town--

小镇——

You know, Ken-- Lester, this is important to me.

你知道，肯-莱斯特，这对我很重要。

And I've been an executive, too.

我也曾担任过高管。

And then Castro delivers an answer that he knows really works.

然后卡斯特罗给出了一个他知道确实有效的答案。

But it made me think, what about Eric Garner?

但这让我思考，埃里克·加纳呢？

And what about Tamir Rice?

那么塔米尔·赖斯呢？

And what about Michael Brown?

那么迈克尔·布朗呢？

What about Laquan McDonald?

拉泉麦当劳怎么样？

At the real debate, Castro delivered a version of that same speech.

在真正的辩论中，卡斯特罗发表了同一篇演讲的一个版本。

But that was not the moment that made him the breakout star.

但这并不是让他成为突破明星的时刻。

There was also not any of the meticulously crafted three-part messages that I watched him labor over.

我也没有看到他精心制作的由三部分组成的信息。

And OK, just to step back, if you saw the Democratic debate, you know that the big clip from the second night was Kamala Harris challenging Joe Biden on race.

好吧，退一步来说，如果你看过民主党辩论，你就会知道第二天晚上的重要片段是卡马拉·哈里斯在种族问题上挑战乔·拜登。

But the big clip from the first night was the other item on Castro's flip chart, list of interruptions.

但第一晚的大片段是卡斯特罗活动挂图上的另一项，即打扰清单。

On the chart, it just said "1325 Immigration."

图表上只写着“1325移民”。

Now 1325, if you're not following this, is the part of the immigration law that makes crossing the border a criminal offense.

现在，如果您不遵守此规定，1325 是移民法中将越境定为刑事犯罪的一部分。

Castro wants to get rid of that.

卡斯特罗想要摆脱这一点。

It would still be illegal to cross the border, but you wouldn't face criminal charges.

越境仍然是非法的，但你不会面临刑事指控。

And the day after I watched him prep, Elizabeth Warren came out in the Huffington Post saying, yeah, I'm with Castro on this 1325 stuff.

在我观看他准备工作的第二天，伊丽莎白·沃伦 (Elizabeth Warren) 在《赫芬顿邮报》上发表讲话说，是的，我在 1325 事件上与卡斯特罗站在一起。

So that was the day before the debate.

那是辩论的前一天。

And seeing that, Castro and his staff to talk about maybe they should do more with 1325 in the debate.

看到这一点，卡斯特罗和他的工作人员谈论也许他们应该在辩论中对 1325 做更多的事情。

And they talked in the past about Castro maybe challenging the other candidates on stage to join his position on 1325, but now they decided, yeah, it's not really a maybe.

他们过去谈论过卡斯特罗可能会挑战台上的其他候选人加入他在 1325 的职位，但现在他们决定，是的，这并不是真正的可能。

He really should try to make that happen.

他确实应该努力实现这一目标。

And Castro walked on stage looking for an opening, which he got about half an hour in.

卡斯特罗走上舞台寻找空缺，他花了大约半个小时才找到空缺。

I will make sure that, number one, we end the ICE policies.

我将确保，第一，我们终止 ICE 政策。

Cory Booker is answering a question about immigration.

科里·布克正在回答有关移民的问题。

As planned, Julián pounces.

按照计划，朱利安发起了猛扑。

We actually will lose security and our values.

我们实际上会失去安全感和价值观。

We must fight for both.

我们必须为两者而战。

If I might very briefly-- and this is an important point.

我可以非常简短地介绍一下——这是很重要的一点。

My plan-- and I'm glad to see that Senator Booker, Senator Warren, and Governor Inslee agree with me on this-- my plan also includes getting rid of Section 1325 of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

我的计划——我很高兴看到布克参议员、沃伦参议员和英斯利州长同意我的观点——我的计划还包括废除《移民和国籍法》第 1325 条。

He then explains 1325.

然后他解释了1325。

Julian Castro And so I want to challenge every single candidate on this stage to support the repeal of Section 1325.

朱利安·卡斯特罗 所以我想向这个舞台上的每一位候选人发出挑战，要求他们支持废除第 1325 条。

The next question is to Beto O'Rourke, and again, Castro swoops in.

下一个问题是向贝托·奥罗克提出的，卡斯特罗再次插话。

We would not put kids in cages.

我们不会把孩子关在笼子里。

In fact, we would spare no expense to reunite the families that have been separated already.

事实上，我们会不惜一切代价让已经离散的家庭团聚。

This is the exchange that ends up the biggest one of the night.

这是当晚最大的一场交流。

And of course, the thing that made it pop is that all the preparation led to this unprepared, unscripted moment.

当然，让它流行的原因是所有的准备工作都导致了这个毫无准备、无脚本的时刻。

Unlike all those careful one-minute answers that Julián rehearsed, this felt like and real.

与朱利安排练过的所有那些仔细的一分钟答案不同，这感觉起来很真实。

Let me respond to this very briefly.

让我非常简短地回应这一点。

Actually, as a member of Congress, I helped to introduce legislation that would ensure that we don't criminalize those who are seeking asylum and refuge in this country.

事实上，作为一名国会议员，我帮助提出了立法，以确保我们不会将那些在这个国家寻求庇护和避难的人定为犯罪。

I'm not talking about the ones that are seeking asylum.

我不是在谈论那些寻求庇护的人。

If you're fleeing desperation, then I want to make sure--

如果你是在逃离绝望，那么我想确保——

But you're looking at-- Ira Glass It all culminates with this.

但你现在看到的是——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），这一切都达到了顶峰。

I think that you should do your homework on this issue.

我认为你应该在这个问题上做足功课。

If you did your homework on this issue, you would know that we should repeal this section.

如果你对这个问题做了功课，你就会知道我们应该废除这一部分。

It was Castro that came out of nowhere.

卡斯特罗不知从何而来。

Nobody was talking about Castro.

没有人谈论卡斯特罗。

He did the Texas takedown.

他完成了德克萨斯州的击倒行动。

Turned around, clocked Beto.

转过身来，给贝托打了钟。

I mean, you never saw it coming.

我的意思是，你从未预见到它的到来。

He bought himself a lifeline tonight.

今晚他给自己买了一条救生索。

And that's why I love these debates.

这就是我喜欢这些辩论的原因。

A lot of the media agreed, and lots of people on Twitter.

很多媒体都表示同意，推特上也有很多人表示同意。

Google reported a leap in people searching for Castro's name.

谷歌报告称，搜索卡斯特罗名字的人数大幅增加。

And it led the campaign to its biggest fundraising day ever, 32 times more than just before the debate.

这使得竞选活动达到了有史以来最大的筹款日，比辩论前多了 32 倍。

Castro was suddenly invited to be on Morning Joe and tons of other TV shows.

卡斯特罗突然被邀请参加《早安乔》和许多其他电视节目。

The only thing that had not gone optimally was his exit from the stage at the end of the debate.

唯一不太理想的是他在辩论结束时退出舞台。

Derek had advised him.

德里克给了他建议。

I would suggest go talk to Elizabeth Warren as quickly as possible.

我建议尽快与伊丽莎白·沃伦交谈。

Oh, you mean because you know that the focus is [INAUDIBLE]

哦，你的意思是因为你知道焦点是[听不清]

The dynamic of you, Booker, and Warren genuinely liking each other will be something that will be good for the [INAUDIBLE].

你、布克和沃伦真诚地喜欢彼此，这对[听不清]是有好处的。

In fact, at the debate's end, Cory Booker is the one who got to Warren first, and they hugged, while Castro was shaking Tim Ryan's hand.

事实上，在辩论结束时，科里·布克第一个找到沃伦，他们拥抱在一起，而卡斯特罗则与蒂姆·瑞安握手。

And then Warren walked over to Castro, and they embraced.

然后沃伦走到卡斯特罗身边，他们拥抱了。

So it worked out in the end even there, just fine.

所以即使在那里，最终还是成功了，很好。

Overall, a win.

总的来说，是一场胜利。

And a week after his breakaway performance in that first debate, Castro was no longer a 1%-er, at least in one poll.

在第一场辩论中表现出色一周后，卡斯特罗不再是 1% 的支持者，至少在一项民意调查中是这样。

ABC News poll put him at 4%, same as Buttigieg, and just below the four frontrunners, Biden, Sanders, Warren, and Harris.

美国广播公司新闻 (ABC News) 的民意调查显示，他的支持率为 4%，与布蒂吉格相同，略低于拜登、桑德斯、沃伦和哈里斯这四位领跑者。

Coming up, we tell you who's going to win the election.

接下来，我们将告诉您谁将赢得选举。

Kidding.

开玩笑。

We did, though, record a candidate who decided to just bribe a voter with $12,000.

不过，我们确实记录了一名候选人决定仅用 12,000 美元贿赂一名选民。

No joke.

不是开玩笑。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

Hey.

嘿。

Ira Glass Hey.

艾拉·格拉斯 嘿。

First time we're in the studio together.

我们第一次一起在录音室。

It is the first time we're in the studio together.

这是我们第一次一起在录音室。

And you had this kind of amazing cinematic recording that you're going to play for the people right now.

你们录制了这种令人惊叹的电影录音，现在就要为人们播放。

Yeah.

是的。

So I was down in South Carolina and Columbia.

所以我去了南卡罗来纳州和哥伦比亚。

And I had this opportunity to pin a mic to Cory Booker, one of the people running for president.

我有机会向科里·布克（Cory Booker）讲话，他是竞选总统的人之一。

Mayor of Newark, New Jersey and now Senator of the United States.

新泽西州纽瓦克市市长，现任美国参议员。

Yep, both of those things.

是的，这两件事。

And so this recording, it starts we're inside of a building.

所以这个录音，它开始我们在一座建筑物内。

And then it goes outside, and he's sort of walking this distance to go and give a speech.

然后它就到了外面，他走了这么远的距离去发表演讲。

And it's basically just his point of view in this moment, which is what I like about it so much.

这基本上只是他此时此刻的观点，这也是我非常喜欢的一点。

You can put it on this side.

你可以把它放在这一边。

Emanuele Berry OK.

埃马努埃莱·贝里 好的。

I can double mic you on the same side.

我可以在同一侧对你进行双麦克风通话。

Senator, you ready?

参议员，你准备好了吗？

Emanuele Berry Switch pocket.

Emanuele Berry Switch 口袋。

Yes.

是的。

Staffer I'm going to hand you this.

工作人员 我要把这个交给你。

You have about 50 people outside, cheering your name.

外面大约有 50 个人在欢呼你的名字。

Cheer them on, and then we're going to march.

为他们加油，然后我们就出发了。

Just follow me the whole way.

全程跟着我就行了。

OK.

好的。

Staffer Everyone's going to be behind you, and press is in front of me.

工作人员 每个人都会在你身后，而媒体就在我面前。

I love you guys!

我爱你们！

Emanuele Berry So in that moment, he just sort of flips from a normal person having a conversation to this super-sized human with a megaphone.

埃马努埃莱·贝里（Emanuele Berry）在那一刻，他从一个正在交谈的普通人变成了一个拿着扩音器的超大人物。

We will rise!

我们会崛起！

We will rise!

我们会崛起！

Everybody, follow me!

大家跟我来吧！

What a weird job these guys have.

这些人的工作多么奇怪啊。

You walk out into a crowd, and then suddenly, you're supposed to lead the crowd.

你走进人群，然后突然间，你应该领导人群。

Yeah.

是的。

And there's all these people surrounding him.

而且他周围还有这么多人。

They've got giant posters of his head, like these Cory Booker head posters.

他们有他头像的巨幅海报，比如这些科里·布克的头像海报。

Wait, wait.

等等，等等。

So you're there in a crowd, and there's Cory Booker's real bald head.

所以你在人群中，那里有科里·布克真正的光头。

And then in addition, there's giant bald Cory Booker heads?

另外，还有科里·布克的巨大光头？

Cory Booker is the best!

科里·布克是最棒的！

Ira Glass Can't you say that's like a weird nightmare image, in a way?

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：在某种程度上，你不能说这就像一个奇怪的噩梦图像吗？

[LAUGHTER] Emanuele Berry It's very friendly faces, smiling.

[笑声] Emanuele Berry 这是非常友好的面孔，微笑着。

And so they're walking in this giant crowd.

所以他们走在这巨大的人群中。

And as they're crossing the street, someone comes up to him.

当他们过马路时，有人向他走来。

And I can't make out exactly what she's saying.

而且我听不懂她到底在说什么。

I think she's a journalist.

我认为她是一名记者。

And it seems like she's asking a question about the latest sexual assault allegations against President Trump.

她似乎在问有关针对特朗普总统的最新性侵犯指控的问题。

No, this is not the ideal time to talk about this.

不，现在不是谈论这个的理想时机。

And why don't you reach out to my team?

你为什么不联系我的团队呢？

But it's very disturbing.

但这非常令人不安。

What hit me is just everybody wants his attention and his time.

让我震惊的是每个人都想要他的注意力和时间。

The press is in front of him.

媒体就在他面前。

They've got cameras pointed at him.

他们有摄像机对着他。

He's got an aide who's telling him where to go.

他有一名助手告诉他该去哪里。

And then he's leading this group of people, clapping and cheering while walking.

然后他就带领着这群人，边走边鼓掌、欢呼。

It's just so much at once.

一下子就这么多了。

Give me a Y!

给我一个Y！

Y!

是啊！

[INAUDIBLE] Give me a C!

[听不清] 给我一个 C！

C!

C！

So he's clapping.

所以他在鼓掌。

And then in the middle of all this, someone else walks up to him.

然后就在这一切中间，另一个人向他走来。

God bless you, brother.

上帝保佑你，兄弟。

God bless you, brother.

上帝保佑你，兄弟。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

It's Jesse Jackson, the civil rights icon, former presidential candidate.

这是杰西·杰克逊，民权偶像，前总统候选人。

Wow.

哇。

Emanuele Berry Jesse Jackson is someone who Booker actually talks about sometimes as the first presidential candidate that he ever voted for.

埃马努埃莱·贝里·杰西·杰克逊是布克有时谈论的第一个他投票支持的总统候选人。

And he's just standing next to him.

而他就站在他旁边。

He just pops out of nowhere, and then he's at Booker's side.

他突然出现在布克身边。

We're in South Carolina, remember?

我们在南卡罗来纳州，还记得吗？

Jesse Jackson--

杰西·杰克逊——

Huge black vote-- every candidate's got to try to get it.

巨大的黑人选票——每个候选人都必须努力争取。

Yeah.

是的。

And I mean, Jesse Jackson's not the worst person to stand next to.

我的意思是，杰西·杰克逊并不是最糟糕的人。

He's from South Carolina.

他来自南卡罗来纳州。

People, they remember when he ran for president.

人们，他们记得他竞选总统的时候。

So you sort of have these two black men in dark suits, one of them who tried to be president and the other one who's trying to do so now, parading down the street together.

所以你可以看到这两个穿着深色西装的黑人，其中一个试图成为总统，另一个现在正在尝试这样做，一起在街上游行。

Yeah, I'm getting ready to go and speak now.

是的，我现在正准备去演讲。

Jackson is hard to hear.

杰克逊的声音很难听清。

He has Parkinson's.

他患有帕金森氏症。

He speaks slow and stumbly, and I don't have a mic on him.

他说话缓慢而结结巴巴，而我身上没有麦克风。

Booker seems pretty chummy.

布克看起来很亲密。

He basically says, yes, we need to talk.

他基本上说，是的，我们需要谈谈。

We need to have a conversation, but not now.

我们需要谈谈，但不是现在。

I'll try to reach out on the number I have for you, but I want to talk to you when we're not-- all this craziness going around.

我会试着联系你的电话号码，但我想在我们不联系的时候和你谈谈——所有这些疯狂的事情都在发生。

So maybe tomorrow after church?

那么也许明天礼拜后？

Are you still going to be down here?

你还要在下面吗？

We often see pictures like this, right?

我们经常看到这样的图片吧？

Like leaders in suits and conversation in this public space.

就像穿着西装的领导者在这个公共场所交谈一样。

And I don't know.

我不知道。

I like to think of the conversations they're having are about these great and epic things.

我喜欢认为他们正在进行的对话是关于这些伟大而史诗般的事情的。

But maybe they're actually just scheduling phone calls.

但也许他们实际上只是在安排电话。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

So let's just talk on the phone, OK?

那么我们就通过电话谈谈吧，好吗？

We need to have a heart-to-heart sooner or later.

我们迟早需要进行一次心与心的交流。

But look, you are doing it right now.

但是看，你现在正在做。

You're continuing to keep people's eyes on justice.

你继续让人们关注正义。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Love you.

爱你。

You can hear that Corey says love you to Jackson.

你可以听到科里对杰克逊说爱你。

I'm not sure if he says it back.

我不确定他是否会回复。

I just can't hear it.

我就是听不到。

Or Jackson might just be like in Star Wars.

或者杰克逊可能就像星球大战中的那样。

I love you.

我爱你。

I know.

我知道。

[LAUGHTER] Emanuele Berry I don't think so.

[笑声] Emanuele Berry 我不这么认为。

Jackson leaves him hanging.

杰克逊让他悬着。

Emanuele Berry I don't think so.

埃马努埃莱·贝里 我不这么认为。

I imagine that he returned the expression.

我想他也回应了这个表情。

And that was only five minutes and 47 seconds of his day.

而那只是他一天中的 5 分 47 秒。

And it was so intense.

而且非常激烈。

Yeah.

是的。

Emanuele Berry And here's what else he did that day.

Emanuele Berry 这是他那天还做了什么。

He had a faith breakfast, barbershop meet-and-greet, Planned Parenthood forum, convention center speech, and then another meet-and-greet.

他参加了信仰早餐、理发店见面会、计划生育论坛、会议中心演讲，然后又参加了另一次见面会。

Also, he's a senator.

而且，他还是一名参议员。

That was just a moment of his day.

那只是他一天中的一个时刻。

And I can't imagine having an entire day like that.

我无法想象拥有这样的一整天。

Ugh, it's so much work, and he's not even a frontrunner.

呃，工作量太大了，而他甚至不是领跑者。

So now I'm joined in the studio by Ben Calhoun.

现在，本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun) 加入了我的工作室。

Hey there.

嘿。

Hey.

嘿。

Ira Glass So you went out with one of the 20 or so underdogs in the race, Andrew Yang.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 所以，你选择了竞选中 20 名左右的失败者之一安德鲁·杨 (Andrew Yang)。

And Yang, I think, is interesting because he's actually managed to get a lot more attention than most of the underdogs.

我认为杨很有趣，因为他实际上比大多数失败者获得了更多的关注。

Yeah.

是的。

He's been doing things like getting on cable shows, profiles in Vanity Fair, Washington Post.

他一直在做一些事情，比如上有线电视节目、在《名利场》、《华盛顿邮报》上发表个人简介。

And so now he's in this position where he's just trying to fan like whatever little flames he's kindled up until this point.

所以现在他就处于这样的境地，他只是想像他之前点燃的任何小火焰一样煽动。

And he's gotten that attention because, well, if you know who this guy is, he's this tech guy, former businessman, who organized his whole campaign around this one idea.

他之所以受到关注，是因为，好吧，如果你知道这个人是谁，他就是一个技术人员，前商人，他围绕这个想法组织了他的整个竞选活动。

Yeah, and the idea is that we should give every working age American $1,000 a month.

是的，我们的想法是我们应该每月给每个工作年龄的美国人 1,000 美元。

Because what Yang says is he says this whole country is in this big crisis where workers are being replaced by automation and technology.

因为杨所说的是，他说整个国家都处于这场大危机中，工人正在被自动化和技术取代。

And he thinks that when Democrats usually talk about this, their solutions are weak sauce.

他认为，当民主党人通常谈论这个问题时，他们的解决方案是弱酱。

He says job retraining programs--

他说工作再培训计划——

Yeah, job retraining.

是的，就业再培训。

And he says the studies show that they don't work for most people.

他说研究表明它们对大多数人不起作用。

And most people kind of feel that in their gut.

大多数人内心都有这种感觉。

Because it is bull [BLEEP].

因为它是公牛[BLEEP]。

And national politicians will talk about retraining until they're blue in the face.

国家政客们会谈论再培训，直到他们脸色发青。

They love it, [LAUGHS] because they're far from the group of people that are getting displaced.

他们喜欢它，[笑]因为他们远离那些流离失所的人。

But if you get close-- I was at a truck stop here in Iowa, Iowa 80.

但如果你走近的话——我当时在爱荷华州的一个卡车停靠站，爱荷华州 80。

And you walk around there, talking about retraining to those guys, you'll probably get a fist to the face.

当你在那里走来走去，向那些人谈论再培训时，你可能会被打一拳。

[LAUGHS] It's irresponsible to talk about that as a mass solution.

[笑]将其视为大众解决方案是不负责任的。

So $1,000 a month, which Yang admits, it's not enough for somebody to live on, but he says it's enough to keep somebody afloat.

杨承认，每个月1000美元不足以维持生计，但他说这足以维持生计。

The name for that is Universal Basic Income, UBI.

它的名称是全民基本收入（UBI）。

Yang's calling his version of this the Freedom Dividend.

杨把他的版本称为“自由红利”。

But so I went to go see him.

但我还是去看他了。

He's going to demonstrate how this would work by actually giving somebody $1,000 a month, no strings attached.

他将通过每月不附加任何条件地实际向某人提供 1,000 美元来演示这是如何运作的。

For a year?

一年？

Ben Calhoun A whole year out of his pocket.

本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun) 自掏腰包整整一年。

OK.

好的。

So tell what happened.

那么说说发生了什么吧。

Ben Calhoun So the night before this thing, I'm in the car with Yang and his campaign.

本·卡尔霍恩：所以在这件事的前一天晚上，我和杨以及他的竞选活动一起在车里。

And I've been recording them all day.

我一整天都在记录它们。

Now it's like 9:30 PM.

现在大约是晚上 9:30。

Everybody's pretty tired.

大家都已经很累了。

So it's an hour and a half from here.

所以距离这里一个半小时。

We need to be somewhere at 10:45, so we need to leave--

我们需要在 10:45 到达某个地方，所以我们需要离开——

And they're talking about this UBI event.

他们正在谈论这个 UBI 事件。

Yang's like, I'm so psyched.

杨说，我太兴奋了。

But then right away, there's this logistical problem.

但很快就出现了后勤问题。

To give away $1,000, you need to hand people something.

要捐赠 1,000 美元，您需要向人们提供一些东西。

And he doesn't have $1,000 on him.

而且他身上也没有1000美元。

What they want to do is like-- I've gotta stop by an ATM and--

他们想做的是——我得去自动取款机那里——

OK, it's pretty much impossible to hear.

好吧，这几乎是不可能听到的。

I'm way in the back.

我在后面。

I'm behind Yang's campaign manager, Zach Graumann, and Yang.

我支持杨的竞选经理扎克·格劳曼和杨。

They're up in front.

他们在前面。

So I'm just going to tell you how a lot of this dialogue goes.

所以我只想告诉你这个对话是如何进行的。

In that tape there, Yang says, I need to stop by an ATM and get a lot of cash, right?

在那盘磁带中，杨说，我需要去 ATM 机取很多现金，对吗？

Because Ed McMahon doesn't show up at your house and just tell you you've won publisher's clearing house.

因为埃德·麦克马洪不会出现在你家，只是告诉你你已经赢得了出版商的票据交换所。

That would be lame.

那太蹩脚了。

You take a photo with the big check.

您与大支票合影。

So Yang's like, I got to get out a bunch of cash, to which his campaign manager says, well--

所以杨说，我得拿出一大笔现金，他的竞选经理对此说，嗯——

So you cannot give cash.

所以不能给现金。

We need to think about this.

我们需要思考这一点。

"So you cannot give cash.

“所以你不能给现金。

We need to think about this," he says.

我们需要考虑这个问题，”他说。

And he gives this big sigh.

他长长地叹了口气。

Because shockingly, the Federal Elections Commission has a problem with a candidate for president giving a voter $12,000 in cash.

因为令人震惊的是，联邦选举委员会对总统候选人向选民提供 12,000 美元现金的行为有异议。

Go figure.

去算算吧。

But also apparently, it's fine if that money comes in the form of a check.

但显然，如果这笔钱以支票的形式出现也没什么问题。

Again, go figure.

再次，想想看。

Questions start flying.

问题开始满天飞。

Does anybody have a check?

有人有支票吗？

Hey, what about Don?

嘿，唐呢？

Don's son would probably have a check, right?

唐的儿子可能会有一张支票，对吧？

Don's son [INAUDIBLE].

唐的儿子[听不清]。

I can go to a bank and get a check, right?

我可以去银行拿支票，对吗？

Yang, meantime, gets out his wallet and starts counting how much cash he has on him.

与此同时，杨掏出钱包，开始数他身上有多少钱。

$270, it turns out.

结果是 270 美元。

And then he starts asking how much ATM limits are.

然后他开始询问 ATM 限额是多少。

How about a cashier's check, someone says, at a Walgreens on Sunday morning?

有人说，周日早上在沃尔格林（Walgreens）买一张银行本票怎么样？

Getting to a Walgreens before 9:00 AM tomorrow.

明天上午 9:00 之前前往 Walgreens。

That's not impossible.

这并非不可能。

Ben Calhoun I'm in a car with a candidate for the presidency of the United States of America who's trying to sell the marquee idea of his campaign, the concept he thinks will save America.

本·卡尔霍恩（Ben Calhoun） 我和一位美利坚合众国总统候选人坐在一辆车里，他正试图推销他的竞选理念，他认为这个理念将拯救美国。

And the question of the moment is, can you get a cashier's check at a Walgreens in Des Moines on Sunday morning before 9:00 AM?

目前的问题是，您可以在周日早上 9:00 之前在得梅因的沃尔格林 (Walgreens) 拿到银行本票吗？

The next day, we go to the house of the Freedom Dividend recipients, Kyle and Pam Christiansen.

第二天，我们去了自由红利领取者凯尔·克里斯蒂安森和帕姆·克里斯蒂安森的家。

At this point, the campaign hasn't told them they're getting the money, just that they're being considered as finalists.

目前，竞选团队还没有告诉他们他们已经拿到了钱，只是说他们被视为决赛入围者。

Yang isn't with us.

杨不在我们身边。

He's waiting to make a surprise entrance.

他正在等待一个惊喜的到来。

His staff was not able to get a cashier's check.

他的员工拿不到银行本票。

So instead, Yang has a grand in $20 bills.

相反，杨有一大笔 20 美元的钞票。

That means that, legally, the campaign is going to have to hand the Christiansens the money for this photo op, but then take it back afterwards and promise to mail them a check, which seems really pretty tacky to me.

这意味着，从法律上讲，竞选团队必须向克里斯蒂安森夫妇支付这次拍照的费用，但随后又收回并承诺寄给他们一张支票，这对我来说似乎非常俗气。

But everyone with the Yang campaign is like, we'll figure it out.

但杨竞选团队的每个人都说，我们会解决这个问题的。

Nice to meet you in person, Pam.

很高兴见到你本人，帕姆。

How are you?

你好吗？

The campaign, I've got to say, picked a really lovely family to get this.

我不得不说，这次竞选活动选择了一个非常可爱的家庭来实现这一目标。

Kyle, the son, is 41.

儿子凯尔 41 岁。

He'd applied for this Freedom Dividend on behalf of his mom.

他代表他的母亲申请了这笔自由红利。

About four years ago, the family lost Kyle's dad, Merle, to brain cancer.

大约四年前，凯尔的父亲梅尔因脑癌去世。

They seemed like such a tight, loving family.

他们看起来就像是一个紧密、充满爱的家庭。

Merle was a musician.

梅尔是一位音乐家。

And in their house, every Wednesday, it was music night.

在他们家里，每周三都是音乐之夜。

They'd play records-- Kiss, Black Sabbath.

他们会播放唱片——《Kiss》、《Black Sabbath》。

Merle would play drums, and the kids would dance around, which is how, I suppose, Kyle ended up being a musician, too.

梅尔会打鼓，孩子们会跳舞，我想，这就是凯尔最终成为一名音乐家的原因。

Anyway, about a year after Merle died, Pam was also diagnosed with cancer.

不管怎样，梅尔去世大约一年后，帕姆也被诊断出患有癌症。

The day she was diagnosed-- her birthday-- her boss called her to tell her he was firing her because she'd had to miss too much work.

在她被确诊的那天，也就是她的生日，她的老板打电话告诉她，他要解雇她，因为她不得不缺勤太多。

Pam worked as an aide for disabled adults, which she said was hard, but she loved it.

帕姆担任残疾成年人的助手，她说这很辛苦，但她喜欢它。

After that, Kyle dedicated himself to taking care of Pam.

此后，凯尔全身心投入照顾帕姆。

And Pam, now in remission, still has a hard time getting around.

帕姆现在已经病情缓解，但出行仍然很困难。

Kyle's been piecing together work-- auto repair, computer repair, music work when he can get it.

凯尔一直在拼凑工作——汽车修理、电脑修理、音乐工作（只要他能找到）。

But it's hard making sure he's there for his mom.

但很难确保他在妈妈身边。

The monthly bills are about $1,300, and they barely get covered.

每月的账单约为 1,300 美元，而且几乎无法支付。

So $1,000 would mean a lot.

所以 1,000 美元意义重大。

Kyle, though, he says he'd like to see his mom spend at least some of this imaginary money, even just a little, on something genuinely frivolous.

不过，凯尔说，他希望看到他的妈妈至少把这些想象中的钱花在一些真正无聊的事情上，哪怕只是一点点。

Yeah, I'd just like to see her just go buy something because she wants to and not out of necessity.

是的，我只是想看到她去买东西是因为她想要，而不是出于必要。

Well, what are some of the things that-- I feel like you get sick, those bills pile up, you start to give things up.

嗯，有哪些事情——我觉得你生病了，那些账单堆积如山，你开始放弃一些东西。

I mean, what are some of the things that you've given up in the last few years?

我的意思是，过去几年你放弃了哪些东西？

Are you talking about like what we have given up, or sold, or that kind of stuff?

你是在谈论我们放弃的、出售的东西，还是诸如此类的东西？

Yeah.

是的。

Just like-- yeah, just since the money's been tighter.

就像——是的，就因为钱越来越紧了。

Yeah, I know for me, I used to have a full-blown recording studio here in town.

是的，我知道对我来说，我曾经在镇上有一个成熟的录音室。

And I've always kind of held on to all that equipment hoping to set one up somewhere.

我一直保留着所有这些设备，希望能在某个地方安装一台。

I've sold darn near all that equipment, and just kind of have bare bones, bare minimum.

我已经卖掉了几乎所有的设备，而且只有最基本的骨头。

I sold my last two guitars that I could possibly part with last week.

上周我卖掉了最后两把可能会卖掉的吉他。

So-- oh my gosh, there's Andrew Yang himself.

所以——天哪，安德鲁·杨本人就是其中之一。

[DOOR BELL RINGS] Pam Christiansen Oh, yes.

[门铃响起] 帕姆·克里斯蒂安森 哦，是的。

Kyle later told me, when he'd asked the campaign if Yang was coming, the staffer he was talking to on the phone hesitated and then said, no, in this way that Kyle figured Yang probably was coming.

凯尔后来告诉我，当他向竞选团队询问杨是否会来时，与他通电话的工作人员犹豫了一下，然后说，不，这样凯尔就认为杨可能会来。

But he and Pam both act surprised.

但他和帕姆都表现得很惊讶。

Andrew Yang offers to take off his shoes in the house.

安德鲁·杨提出在屋里脱鞋。

Nope, nope, you're fine.

不，不，你很好。

Andrew Yang I am Asian, so.

安德鲁·杨（Andrew Yang）我是亚洲人，所以。

No, come on.

不，来吧。

Andrew Yang I'll take them off.

安德鲁·杨 我会把它们脱掉。

Hey, Mr. Yang.

嘿，杨先生。

How are you?

你好吗？

Andrew Yang I'm doing great.

安德鲁·杨 我做得很好。

You must be Pam.

你一定是帕姆。

Yes, I'm Pam.

是的，我是帕姆。

Andrew Yang Thank you for having me here.

安德鲁·杨（Andrew Yang）谢谢你邀请我来到这里。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Yang So I'm here to let you know that you will be receiving the Iowa Freedom Dividend starting July 1.

Andrew Yang，我在此通知您，您将从 7 月 1 日起领取爱荷华州自由红利。

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Ben Calhoun If Yang did this for everyone, if he gave every adult $12,000 a year, it would cost the government $2 trillion, give or take.

本·卡尔霍恩 如果杨为所有人做到这一点，如果他每年给每个成年人 12,000 美元，那么政府将花费 2 万亿美元，无论给予还是接受。

The current federal budget is $4 trillion.

目前的联邦预算为 4 万亿美元。

So we're talking about a massive realignment of the economy and redistribution of wealth.

因此，我们正在谈论大规模的经济调整和财富的重新分配。

Yang has projections on how all this could be paid for, and they include some very optimistic assumptions, all for a theory that's never been tested on anywhere near the scale.

杨对如何支付这一切费用做出了预测，其中包括一些非常乐观的假设，所有这些都是基于从未在任何接近规模的地方进行过测试的理论。

Yang starts to explain to the Christiansens how this is going to work for them.

杨开始向克里斯蒂安夫妇解释这将如何为他们带来好处。

But mostly, he tells them how grateful he is to help them out, in a way that feels pretty nice, actually.

但最重要的是，他告诉他们他是多么感激能帮助他们，实际上以一种感觉很好的方式。

And it kind of drains a little awkwardness out of a very manufactured situation.

这在一种非常人为的情况下消除了一点尴尬。

So we need to do this for people all over the country, but starting here with you all to illustrate the fact that if people get some extra money in their hands, it's going to go to the things that we care about and value.

因此，我们需要为全国各地的人们做这件事，但从这里开始，我们要向大家说明一个事实，即如果人们手中有一些额外的钱，这些钱就会花在我们关心和重视的事情上。

I mean, it's an awesome opportunity for us.

我的意思是，这对我们来说是一个绝佳的机会。

So thank you for making it possible.

所以谢谢你让这一切成为可能。

Give me a hug.

给我一个拥抱。

No problem.

没问题。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Andrew Yang You guys are very, very welcome.

安德鲁·杨（Andrew Yang） 你们非常非常欢迎。

The next 45 minutes are completely usual and unusual.

接下来的 45 分钟是完全平常又不寻常的。

Yang genuinely asks Pam and Kyle about their situation-- Pam's neuropathy, her treatment.

杨真诚地询问帕姆和凯尔的情况——帕姆的神经病和她的治疗情况。

He talks again and again about how much he admires Kyle for taking care of his mom.

他一次又一次地谈到他多么钦佩凯尔照顾他的妈妈。

Kyle talks about the one doctor's appointment he's missed in the last three years.

凯尔谈到了他在过去三年中错过的一位医生的预约。

They talk about music, how Kyle quit the metal band he was touring with because he loved performing, but he never had an interest in the drinking and drugs that went with it.

他们谈论音乐，谈论凯尔如何退出与他一起巡演的金属乐队，因为他喜欢表演，但他对随之而来的酗酒和吸毒从来不感兴趣。

They laugh about Yang's flag socks.

他们嘲笑杨的国旗袜。

He talks about picking them out.

他谈到要把它们挑出来。

Like so little of political campaigning, it's unrushed enough to feel regular.

就像很少有的政治竞选活动一样，它从容不迫，让人感觉很规律。

Until it's time to go and the surreal logistics of a political campaign break through this small bubble of normality.

直到时间到了，一场政治竞选的超现实后勤工作打破了这个正常的小泡沫。

Yang has to hit the road.

杨必须上路了。

I feel like this is a weird and particular thing you see when politicians campaign.

我觉得这是政客竞选时看到的一件奇怪而特殊的事情。

So many of their interactions are superficial and crassly abbreviated.

他们的许多互动都是肤浅且粗俗的缩写。

And then sometimes, like in this room, they'll just drift into a space with some voters that feels intense, and authentic, and personal.

有时，就像在这个房间里一样，他们会和一些选民一起进入一个感觉紧张、真实、个性化的空间。

And then poof, time to go.

然后噗，该走了。

Before Yang's got to leave, though, they have to pose for pictures.

不过，在杨离开之前，他们必须摆好姿势拍照。

They have to pose with the cash, the cash they need, but won't be allowed to keep.

他们必须与现金合影，他们需要的现金，但不允许保留。

After the pictures, they'll hand it back.

拍完照片后，他们会把东西还给你。

For now, Yang pulls out this huge wad of twenties.

现在，杨拿出了这一大堆二十岁的人。

Pam, with some struggle, stands up.

帕姆挣扎着站了起来。

And Yang hands each of them a stack.

杨递给他们每人一叠。

Yeah, can you fan it?

是啊，你能扇它吗？

Zach Graumann Can you guys fan it?

扎克·格劳曼（Zach Graumann）你们可以扇它吗？

They fan out the money.

他们把钱扇出来。

And then they look for which lens to smile into.

然后他们寻找对着哪个镜头微笑。

There you go.

就这样吧。

Pam Christiansen Split it in half.

帕姆·克里斯蒂安森 将其分成两半。

His pile's bigger than mine.

他的堆比我的还大。

[LAUGHTER] Staffer Not that I'm counting, but--

[笑声] 工作人员 我不是在数数，但是——

[CAMERA CLICKING] Andrew Yang And one, this is for Instagram.

[相机点击]安德鲁·杨（Andrew Yang）还有一，这是 Instagram 的。

Ben Calhoun.

本·卡尔霍恩.

Hey, Ben?

嘿，本？

Ben Calhoun Yeah.

本·卡尔霍恩 是的。

I see in the poll numbers that he's still stuck at the bottom.

我从民意调查数字中看到他仍然处于底部。

Yeah, and I mean, not the bottom, bottom.

是的，我的意思是，不是底部，底部。

It's so crazy that people aren't voting for this.

这太疯狂了，以至于人们没有投票支持这一点。

It reminds me of-- I knew somebody who was an editor at Playboy magazine.

这让我想起——我认识一个人，他是《花花公子》杂志的编辑。

Like once the internet hit and Maxim and all those magazines hit, and it was like Playboy was printing pornography, and people wouldn't buy the magazine.

就像有一次互联网流行、《Maxim》和所有这些杂志流行一样，就像《花花公子》正在印刷色情作品，人们不会购买该杂志。

And that's what I feel like this is.

这就是我的感觉。

It's like he's giving away $12,000 to everybody who will vote for him, and people still don't want it.

这就好像他向所有投票给他的人赠送了 12,000 美元，但人们仍然不想要它。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

The family did say that they are going to caucus for him, if he's still around in January when the caucuses happen.

家人确实说过，如果一月份党团会议举行时他还在身边，他们将为他参加党团会议。

You have a town hall with the moderate guy who wants to beat up Medicare for All, or you have Gillibrand also at 1% with drag queens.

你有一个市政厅，里面有一个温和派的人想要击败全民医疗保险，或者你有吉利布兰德也有 1% 的变装皇后。

So which of those is more interesting?

那么其中哪一个更有趣呢？

Hi Ira, I'm back.

嗨，艾拉，我回来了。

Ira Glass Hey there, Zoe Chace.

艾拉·格拉斯 嘿，佐伊·切斯。

I'm taking you through Iowa with Dave Weigel, the Washington Post reporter.

我将与《华盛顿邮报》记者戴夫·韦格尔一起带您游览爱荷华州。

I know.

我知道。

I feel like you saw so much more than we heard at the top of the show.

我觉得你看到的比我们在节目顶部听到的要多得多。

It's kind of crazy the way Weigel wants to go to every single candidate event.

韦格尔想要参加每一次候选人活动的方式有点疯狂。

That's impossible, because there are too many happening at the same time.

这是不可能的，因为同时发生的事情太多了。

It's not the hardest decision anyone's ever made.

这并不是任何人做过的最艰难的决定。

It's like--

这就像——

But there's this intense lesson that I think a lot of the reporters learned from 2016, which is that any candidate can surge.

但我认为很多记者从 2016 年学到了一个深刻的教训，那就是任何候选人都可以崛起。

Oh, you mean because Trump.

哦，你的意思是因为特朗普。

Like, they didn't foresee that Trump could be the winner.

就像，他们没有预见到特朗普会成为赢家。

Yeah, all the things that indicated who'd come out on top-- like think Jeb Bush, right?

是的，所有的事情都表明谁会脱颖而出——就像杰布·布什那样，对吧？

He was the front runner.

他是领跑者。

He had all the money.

他拥有所有的钱。

None of those things turned out to matter.

结果这些事情都不重要了。

So this time around, it's like any event can be the beginning of someone's big run.

所以这一次，任何事件都可能成为某人大发展的开始。

We went to so many events in just two days.

我们在短短两天内参加了很多活动。

She saved the mommy.

她救了妈妈。

She saved the daddy.

她救了爸爸。

She saved--

她救了——

Kirsten Gillibrand, she wrote a kid's book.

克尔斯滕·吉利布兰德，她写了一本儿童读物。

And she's reading it at the Y to just two small children, while a handful of people watch them.

她在 Y 上只给两个小孩朗读这本书，而少数人则在观看。

Yeah, she wrote a book for kids, but not that many kids showed up to hear it.

是的，她为孩子们写了一本书，但没有多少孩子来听。

Be strong and courageous.

要坚强和勇敢。

Do you know what the word courageous means?

你知道勇敢这个词的意思吗？

Do you know what it means?

你知道这意味着什么吗？

Courageous means brave.

勇敢就是勇敢的意思。

Do you know what the word--

你知道这个词是什么吗——

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

What a coincidence.

真是巧合啊。

Brave just happens to be the theme of her entire campaign.

勇敢恰好是她整个竞选活动的主题。

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

We went to an Iowa Democratic Veterans event where Eric Swalwell, a candidate for president, was supposed to be.

我们参加了爱荷华州民主党退伍军人活动，总统候选人埃里克·斯瓦尔韦尔本来应该参加。

But can you just tell me what's going on?

但你能告诉我发生了什么事吗？

Is he coming?

他来了吗？

Where is he?

他在哪儿？

Eric Swalwell?

埃里克·斯瓦尔韦尔？

Yeah, his flight was delayed.

是的，他的航班延误了。

So staffer made it.

于是工作人员就做到了。

He wanted to be here, but delayed flight.

他想去这里，但航班延误了。

Got it.

知道了。

Joe Stutler We had that from several of them that had scheduling issues.

Joe Stutler 我们从其中几个有日程安排问题的人那里得到了这样的信息。

Like, oh, crap, our flight's been bumped.

就像，哦，糟糕，我们的航班被延误了。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Joe Stutler That's the silliness of waiting until the day of to get into a major event, as opposed to flying in a day early and being prepared.

乔·斯图特勒（Joe Stutler）：等到参加重大赛事的那一天，而不是提前一天飞去并做好准备，这是愚蠢的做法。

Oh, he's mad.

哦，他生气了。

Zoe Chace Yeah, Joe Stutler, secretary of the Iowa Democratic Veterans Caucus.

佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 是的，乔·斯图勒 (Joe Stutler)，爱荷华州民主党退伍军人核心小组秘书。

That's a guy you want on your side early on.

这是一个你希望尽早站在你这边的人。

I used to live on the road.

我以前住在路上。

It's like, you get there the day before, if it's important.

就像，如果重要的话，你要提前一天到达那里。

So you're kind of feeling like maybe this wasn't that important to him?

所以你觉得也许这对他来说并不那么重要？

No, no. I just think that they're all trying to do way too much.

不，不。我只是觉得他们都想做得太多了。

These are the lessons that we learn, sometimes the hard way.

这些是我们学到的教训，有时是惨痛的教训。

Of course, there are lots of reporters who have covered these kinds of events a million times, who stand around afterwards nerding out about campaign history, which is kind of awesome.

当然，有很多记者已经报道过此类事件一百万次，之后他们还站在那里研究竞选历史，这真是太棒了。

After Gene McCarthy finished a decent second event in New Hampshire--

吉恩·麦卡锡在新罕布什尔州完成了不错的第二场比赛后——

Close second to him in New Hampshire, and about to win--

在新罕布什尔州紧随其后，即将获胜——

And then Bobby got it.

然后鲍比明白了。

Man 2 And Bobby got it in, and then McCarthy was about to win Wisconsin, because Bobby had not gotten on the ballot, if I remember.

Man 2 鲍比参加了投票，然后麦卡锡即将赢得威斯康星州，因为鲍比没有参加选票，如果我记得的话。

Right.

正确的。

Yeah.

是的。

Zoe Chace And also, it's cool to see these guys talking about this moment-- this early moment in the campaign-- in this way, like it might be history later.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）而且，很高兴看到这些人以这种方式谈论这一刻——竞选的早期时刻——就像这可能会成为历史一样。

It might not be, but they're talking about it like it is, like when Weigel and this other reporter were in the back of the room talking about Elizabeth Warren.

也许不是，但他们确实在谈论这件事，就像韦格尔和另一位记者在房间后面谈论伊丽莎白·沃伦时一样。

I remember seeing her at the Sharpton thing.

我记得在夏普顿事件中见过她。

Oh, I was there.

哦，我当时也在场。

Reporter Yeah.

记者 是啊。

And remember she had a really [INAUDIBLE] speaking time.

请记住，她的演讲时间非常[听不清]。

I took out the dress.

我把衣服拿出来。

You all know the dress.

你们都知道这件衣服。

Yeah.

是的。

Zoe Chace What was her dress line?

Zoe Chace 她的着装系列是什么？

So the dress line-- she tells it all the time-- is, when she was a kid-- and she always says, my mama and my daddy, because she's from Oklahoma.

所以，着装系列——她一直这么说——是，当她还是个孩子的时候——她总是说，我的妈妈和我的爸爸，因为她来自俄克拉荷马州。

But she talks about, I heard my parents in that argument, talking at night after they thought I was asleep.

但她谈到，我听到我的父母在那次争吵中，在晚上他们以为我睡着了之后说话。

And that's where I learned words like foreclosure and mortgage.

这就是我学到诸如取消抵押品赎回权和抵押贷款之类的词的地方。

Right.

正确的。

Dave Weigel And I walked past my mother's room, and I saw her puttering-- going back and forth with a dress laid out.

戴夫·韦格尔（Dave Weigel）：我走过母亲的房间，看到她正拿着一件衣服来来回回地走来走去。

And she goes, y'all know the dress.

她走了，你们都知道这件衣服。

It's the one you only use for graduations and funerals-- weddings, graduations, and funerals.

这是一种只用于毕业典礼和葬礼的场合——婚礼、毕业典礼和葬礼。

And she looks at the dress and says, we're not going to lose this house.

她看着裙子说，我们不会失去这座房子。

We're not going to lose this house.

我们不会失去这座房子。

She does it like in this-- like she's doing it kind of like--

她这样做就像这样——就像她这样做有点像——

And the very next day, I saw her give this speech to a pretty big crowd in a backyard in Waterloo, Iowa.

第二天，我看到她在爱荷华州滑铁卢的后院向一大群人发表了这篇演讲。

Everybody was just kind of rapt.

每个人都全神贯注。

And there was the dress, and there was my mother.

还有那件衣服，还有我的母亲。

She was in her slip and her stocking feet.

她穿着衬裙和袜子。

And she was pacing and crying, just talking to herself and saying, we will not lose this house.

她边走边哭，自言自语地说，我们不会失去这座房子。

We will not lose this house.

我们不会失去这座房子。

We will not lose this house.

我们不会失去这座房子。

And this one guy was wiping tears away.

而这个人正在擦眼泪。

At this point, Weigel can sort of divide the candidates into two groups.

此时，韦格尔可以将候选人分为两组。

And it's not the moderates and the far left.

这不是温和派和极左派。

He says, actually, the voters he talks to are less hung up on the policy questions.

他说，实际上，与他交谈的选民不太关心政策问题。

What they mainly want is to be able to close their eyes and see this person beating Donald Trump.

他们主要想要的是能够闭上眼睛，看到这个人击败唐纳德·特朗普。

Hm.

嗯。

Zoe Chace The two groups he notices are, one, the candidates where people show up at one of their events, and a transformation happens.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）他注意到的两个群体是，一是候选人，人们出现在他们的一场活动中，然后发生了转变。

The voter leaves the event excited, inspired.

选民离开活动时兴奋不已、深受启发。

The other group are the ones where that transformation doesn't happen.

另一组是那些没有发生这种转变的人。

Cory Booker, Pete Buttigieg, and most of all, Elizabeth Warren.

科里·布克、皮特·布蒂吉格，最重要的是伊丽莎白·沃伦。

Huh.

呵呵。

Zoe Chace People see her, and they're surprised at how much they like her.

佐伊·切斯 人们看到她，都会惊讶于自己有多喜欢她。

Basically everyone else, including the front runner, Joe Biden.

基本上其他人，包括领跑者乔·拜登。

People would come to see him because they already loved him, and then they would leave feeling no different, or worse.

人们来看他是因为他们已经爱他了，然后他们离开时感觉没有什么不同，甚至更糟。

Like they want to be inspired, but they weren't inspired.

就像他们想要受到启发一样，但他们没有受到启发。

I have all these memories, which already seem surreal, of Beto O'Rourke coming to somewhere and there being an enormous crowd to see him.

我有所有这些记忆，贝托·奥罗克来到某个地方，有一大群人来看他，这些记忆已经显得超现实了。

Now it's like the crowd is smaller, and people leave underwhelmed.

现在人群似乎变少了，人们离开时也没什么印象。

Since the first debate, at this point, the field is basically sorting itself out.

从第一次辩论到现在，这个领域已经基本整理完毕。

The debates clarify that some people don't have secret candidate charisma powers that are going to reveal themselves at some point.

这些辩论表明，有些人并不具有秘密的候选人魅力，而这种魅力会在某个时候显露出来。

They haven't yet.

他们还没有。

It might not be happening.

这可能不会发生。

So I think that the field probably is going to limit itself more to 16, 17 people soon.

所以我认为这个领域可能很快就会将自己限制在 16、17 人。

When it comes to me taking people seriously, if at this point you had two fundraising quarters, you're in the teens or the high single digits, and you have enough money to fund 50 staff in Iowa, I think that's more interesting.

当谈到我认真对待人们时，如果此时你有两个筹款季度，你的资金处于十几岁或高个位数，并且你有足够的钱来资助爱荷华州的 50 名员工，我认为这更有趣。

And that's more important than, hey, there's another guy who's at 0%, and he's meeting at a diner.

这比，嘿，还有一个人的状态为 0%，而他在一家餐馆开会更重要。

Aw.

噢。

So the special magical time where it seems like any of the two dozen candidates could rise, that's ending?

那么，似乎两打候选人中的任何一个都可能崛起的特殊神奇时刻就这样结束了吗？

It is, except there's a dark horse out there still who could shake things up.

确实如此，只是还有一匹黑马可以撼动一切。

There is one more move left in this great game of who will run America.

这场关于谁将统治美国的伟大游戏还剩最后一步。

I know where you're going with this.

我知道你想做什么。

Yes, on the Republican side, things are still wide open and away.

是的，在共和党方面，事情仍然悬而未决。

There, it is just the president and so far, one other candidate, former governor Bill Weld.

在那里，只有总统，到目前为止，还有另一位候选人，前州长比尔·韦尔德。

Weld held elective office 20 years ago.

韦尔德 20 年前就任总统。

He so far has not had much of an impact.

到目前为止，他还没有产生太大的影响。

And for our last story, we are joined now by one of our producers, David Kestenbaum.

对于我们的最后一个故事，我们的制片人之一大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 现在也加入了我们的行列。

Hey, David.

嘿，大卫。

Hey, Ira.

嘿，艾拉。

Ira Glass So you talked to two Republicans who are doing basically everything they can to find a genuine heavy hitter to run against the President of the United States from within his own party.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：您与两位共和党人进行了交谈，他们基本上正在竭尽全力寻找一位真正的重量级人物来从自己的党内对抗美国总统。

Yeah, they feel like if the right person were just to enter the race, it could matter more than anything the Democrats are doing.

是的，他们觉得如果合适的人选参加竞选，这可能比民主党所做的任何事情都重要。

Hm.

嗯。

David Kestenbaum So here's the scene, an office in Washington, DC.

David Kestenbaum 这是场景，华盛顿特区的一间办公室。

Hey, Bill?

嘿，比尔？

Hey, Carson.

嘿，卡森。

Is Bill out there?

比尔在吗？

That's Sarah Longwell.

那是莎拉·朗威尔。

She's a Republican strategist.

她是一位共和党战略家。

The mug in front of her on the desk reads, "These are the tears of my staff." And it's filled with pens.

她面前桌子上的杯子上写着：“这是我员工的眼泪。”而且里面装满了笔。

The Bill she is looking for is Bill Kristol, the guy from TV, the one that seems to have an encyclopedic memory of every election in American history.

她要找的比尔是比尔·克里斯托尔，电视里的那个人，似乎对美国历史上的每一次选举都有百科全书般的记忆。

Kristol worked in the first Bush administration, helped start the Weekly Standard magazine.

克里斯托尔曾在第一届布什政府工作，帮助创办了《标准周刊》杂志。

Oh, you had to stop and get your fancy bougie coffee.

哦，你必须停下来喝杯美味的探花咖啡。

He wanders in and sits down on a small couch.

他走进去，坐在一张小沙发上。

They've just done a poll of voters in New Hampshire, and they're meeting to talk about it.

他们刚刚对新罕布什尔州的选民进行了民意调查，他们正在开会讨论此事。

I mean, look.

我的意思是，看。

If I was looking at this thinking about running for the Republican nomination--

如果我正在考虑竞选共和党提名——

You should do that.

你应该这样做。

I say this all the time.

我一直这么说。

Yeah, right.

是的，对。

Bill Kristol We have all these other people we're talking to-- congressmen, and ex-senators, and all these big shots.

比尔·克里斯托：我们正在与所有其他人交谈——国会议员、前参议员，以及所有这些大人物。

This is his great pitch, that I should run.

这是他的伟大演讲，我应该参加。

We are really in dire straits, if that's where we're at now.

如果我们现在处于这种情况的话，我们确实陷入了困境。

Totally wrong.

完全错误的。

David Kestenbaum I think if you were taking on a standing president from within your own party, there are kind of two paths.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）：我认为，如果你要从自己的党内选出一位常任总统，那么有两条路可走。

You can do it quietly, out of view, or you can do it the way Kristol has-- by never shutting up about it on television and newspaper articles.

你可以悄悄地、在别人的视线之外做这件事，或者你也可以像克里斯托尔那样做——永远不要在电视和报纸文章中闭嘴。

He recently tweeted that he'd been accused of being in a secret cabal to find a challenger to Trump.

他最近发推文称，他被指控参与秘密阴谋集团寻找特朗普的挑战者。

His answer-- there's nothing secret about it.

他的回答——没有什么秘密。

Kristol and Longwell have raised a few million dollars in the past two years.

克里斯托尔和朗威尔在过去两年中筹集了数百万美元。

And they've been using it to try and see, is this thing even possible?

他们一直在用它来尝试看看，这件事是否可能？

The whole idea of running against Trump in the primary can seem a little crazy.

在初选中与特朗普竞选的整个想法似乎有点疯狂。

He has like an 80% or 90% approval rating from Republicans.

他获得了共和党 80% 或 90% 的支持率。

But they feel like it is not crazy at all.

但他们觉得这根本不疯狂。

In that poll they just had done of Republicans in New Hampshire and independents who might vote in the Republican primary, half were open to voting for a challenger.

在他们刚刚对新罕布什尔州的共和党人和可能在共和党初选中投票的独立人士进行的民意调查中，有一半人愿意投票给挑战者。

Half.

一半。

No, I mean, I was just up in Manchester, and I did a series of focus groups.

不，我的意思是，我刚到曼彻斯特，我参加了一系列焦点小组活动。

If you ask them specifically, hey, would you be open to an alternative in 2020?

如果你具体问他们，嘿，你会在 2020 年接受替代方案吗？

Would you like to see another Republican candidate?

您想看到另一位共和党候选人吗？

Every single time, nine out of the 10 hands go up.

每次，十只手中有九只举手。

I think for some people, there's a hunger for an alternative.

我认为对于某些人来说，他们渴望有替代方案。

And then for other people, it's just an openness, like a willingness for political competition.

对于其他人来说，这只是一种开放性，就像政治竞争的意愿一样。

One thing that really surprises people in these focus groups, she says, is when you explain just how much the debt has gone up under Trump.

她说，真正让这些焦点小组中的人们感到惊讶的一件事是，当你解释特朗普领导下的债务增加了多少时。

It's increased more during the first two years of Trump than it did the previous two years under Obama.

特朗普执政的头两年，这一数字比奥巴马执政的前两年增长得更多。

Bill Kristol lays out how this all might go for a challenger.

比尔·克里斯托 (Bill Kristol) 阐述了挑战者将如何应对这一切。

You raise a little money, go to Iowa, New Hampshire.

你筹集一点钱，去爱荷华州、新罕布什尔州。

Maybe you get 30% of the vote in New Hampshire.

也许你在新罕布什尔州获得 30% 的选票。

That is a serious blow to the president.

这对总统来说是一个严重的打击。

You're off and running.

你就出发了。

So that's their case.

这就是他们的情况。

There is one kind of noticeable challenge to this plan.

该计划面临一种明显的挑战。

Since we've had the current primary system, there are zero examples-- zero-- of someone challenging a sitting president in a primary and actually winning.

自从我们有了当前的初选制度以来，有人在初选中挑战现任总统并真正获胜的例子为零——零。

I mean, is some part of this just kind of like theater?

我的意思是，其中的某些部分是不是有点像戏剧？

And I mean theater you truly believe in?

我的意思是你真正相信的戏剧？

I mean, I don't want to say yes because of course-- because that really isn't.

我的意思是，我当然不想说“是”——因为事实并非如此。

I don't think of it that way.

我不这么认为。

I'm not a very theatrical person.

我不是一个很戏剧化的人。

But I guess theater in the sense that presidential politics is the biggest stage we have in politics.

但我认为，从总统政治的意义上来说，戏剧是我们政治中最大的舞台。

And the presidential contest is the biggest stage.

而总统竞选是最大的舞台。

And I don't want to simply leave that stage on the Republican side alone to Donald Trump.

我不想简单地将共和党方面的舞台留给唐纳德·特朗普。

I'm still trying to think through just, like in your mind, why you're doing this.

我仍在尝试像你一样思考为什么要这样做。

And is part of it just like a feeling like what is democracy for, if I can't cast a vote for the person I really want to be in office?

如果我不能投票给我真正想担任公职的人，这是否就像一种感觉，民主是为了什么？

Yeah, I think it's actually people are overthinking this.

是的，我认为这实际上是人们想太多了。

I mean, I'm doing it because I don't think Trump should have a second term.

我的意思是，我这样做是因为我认为特朗普不应该连任。

I'm a Republican.

我是一名共和党人。

It'd be a heck of a thing to say, OK, you think he's really leading the country down a terrible path, and you should just take two or four or six years off.

如果你说，好吧，你认为他真的带领这个国家走上了一条可怕的道路，你应该休息两年、四年或六年，那就太糟糕了。

But you're really unlikely to succeed, right?

但你真的不太可能成功，对吧？

So why do it?

那么为什么要这么做呢？

Bill Kristol Look.

比尔·克里斯托 看吧。

The last three presidents were not primaried, and they won re-election.

前三位总统均未经过初选，并赢得连任。

And here, Bill offered up what seems to be the other math that candidates are doing.

在这里，比尔提供了候选人正在做的其他数学计算。

The last three presidents did not have a primary challenge, and they won re-election.

过去三任总统都没有遇到初选挑战，并赢得连任。

When a sitting president has been challenged by his own party, like Carter by Kennedy, Ford by Reagan, Bush by Buchanan, the challenger doesn't win.

当现任总统受到本党的挑战时，就像卡特受到肯尼迪、福特受到里根、布什受到布坎南的挑战一样，挑战者不会获胜。

But maybe because they damaged the president, he does not win re-election.

但也许是因为他们损害了总统，他没有赢得连任。

In other words, this may be the bargain.

换句话说，这可能是讨价还价。

You can run for president, possibly shape history, end Trump, change who wins, but you don't get to win.

你可以竞选总统，可能会塑造历史，终结特朗普，改变获胜者，但你无法获胜。

I mean, it's interesting.

我的意思是，这很有趣。

The other Republicans I talked to pointed out that history is not on your side.

我采访过的其他共和党人指出，历史并不站在你们一边。

And you were pointing out, oh, it is on my side, in the sense that a sitting president challenged tends to lose.

你指出，哦，这是站在我这边的，从某种意义上说，受到挑战的现任总统往往会失败。

But that means what you're doing is just an act of internal sabotage.

但这意味着你所做的只是一种内部破坏行为。

No, but I think it's also holding out an alternative in a good way.

不，但我认为它也以一种很好的方式提供了替代方案。

But yeah--

但是是的——

Or sabotage.

或者破坏。

I mean-- Bill Kristol Well, people can say that.

我的意思是——比尔·克里斯托（Bill Kristol） 嗯，人们可以这么说。

They said that about the French who didn't go along with Vichy.

他们这样评价那些不赞同维希的法国人。

I mean, what are you supposed to do?

我的意思是，你应该做什么？

If you think it's bad--

如果你觉得这样不好——

I love that every time I have a point that's historical--

我喜欢每次我提出历史观点时——

If you think it's bad for the country, they can say it's sabotage.

如果你认为这对国家不利，他们可以说这是破坏行为。

I would say it's opposition.

我想说的是反对派。

I don't think it's sabotage.

我不认为这是破坏行为。

Sabotage implies secrecy and deception.

破坏意味着秘密和欺骗。

I don't think there's a heck of a lot of secrecy and deception in what I'm doing.

我不认为我所做的事情有太多秘密和欺骗。

I think I've been pretty open about my opposition, so I feel like I'm-- isn't that the point of America?

我想我对我的反对意见一直很开放，所以我觉得我——这不是美国的意义吗？

Honestly, if I were a Democrat, I would call me up and say, here's a lot of money for a primary challenge-- and we have talked to a lot of Democrats about this, obviously-- against Donald Trump.

老实说，如果我是一名民主党人，我会打电话给我说，这里有很多钱可以用于针对唐纳德·特朗普的初选挑战——显然，我们已经与很多民主党人讨论过这个问题。

I mean, that's actually the single best thing you can do to weaken Trump.

我的意思是，这实际上是削弱特朗普能做的最好的事情。

You can help Elizabeth Warren, or Kamala Harris, or Cory Booker right now.

你现在可以帮助伊丽莎白·沃伦、卡玛拉·哈里斯或科里·布克。

But we don't know which of those will actually be a good nominee against Trump.

但我们不知道其中哪一个实际上会成为对抗特朗普的良好提名人。

The one thing you do know is if Trump has to spend money against the primary challenger, if he loses 32% of the vote in New Hampshire, which is entirely possible, and it's embarrassing, it would be helpful to weaken Trump.

你确实知道的一件事是，如果特朗普要花钱对付初选挑战者，如果他失去新罕布什尔州32%的选票，这完全有可能，而且很尴尬，这对削弱特朗普会有帮助。

Wait, but is your goal to run somebody who's going to win the nomination and maybe the presidency?

等等，但你的目标是竞选一个能够赢得提名甚至总统职位的人吗？

Or is your goal just to take down Trump?

或者你的目标只是推翻特朗普？

Both.

两个都。

Obviously, the first would be the best.

显然，第一个是最好的。

But I would regard the second as an adequate result, and I think actually an important result, if I can say.

但我认为第二个结果是足够的，如果我可以说的话，我认为实际上是一个重要的结果。

Sarah Longwell has been weighing all this, too.

莎拉·朗威尔也一直在权衡这一切。

It's possible the whole thing could backfire if the wrong Democrat ended up in the White House.

如果错误的民主党人入主白宫，整个事情可能会适得其反。

I certainly would not want Bernie Sanders to be the President of the United States.

我当然不希望伯尼·桑德斯成为美国总统。

So if you ended up handing it to Sanders, that would not be a happy day for you.

因此，如果你最终把它交给了桑德斯，那对你来说不会是快乐的一天。

Well, that's sort of like, do I want to be poisoned, or do I want to be shot?

好吧，这有点像，我想被毒死，还是想被枪杀？

Those are just sort of bad choices.

这些只是一些糟糕的选择。

And I think America deserves better than to have choices between an old socialist and sort of an authoritarian sort of nativist.

我认为美国不应该在老社会主义者和威权主义本土主义者之间做出选择。

My choice is neither.

我的选择两者都不是。

There's this scene in the HBO series on Chernobyl that's running right now where the nuclear reactor is about to explode.

HBO 正在播出的切尔诺贝利系列剧中有这样一个场景，核反应堆即将爆炸。

So these workers have to go into the basement of the power plant to try to open a valve.

因此，这些工人必须进入发电厂的地下室尝试打开阀门。

There's so much radiation, it seems certain they're going to die, but it will also save everyone else.

辐射如此之大，似乎他们肯定会死，但这也会拯救其他人。

Sarah has been watching the show.

莎拉一直在看这个节目。

I asked her if she ever thought about it like that.

我问她是否有过这样的想法。

No, she said.

不，她说。

Never.

绝不。

They're not asking someone to risk their life, they're asking someone to put their name in the hat to be the next president of the United States.

他们不是要求某人冒生命危险，而是要求某人将自己的名字戴在帽子上，成为下一任美国总统。

Apparently, it's easier to get someone to walk into Chernobyl.

显然，让某人走进切尔诺贝利更容易。

[MUSIC - STEVE FORBERT, "YOU CANNOT WIN IF YOU DO NOT PLAY"]

[音乐 - 史蒂夫·福伯特，“如果你不玩，你就赢不了”]

Our program was produced today by Zoe Chace and myself.

今天我们的节目是由佐伊·查斯和我自己制作的。

People who put our show together today includes Bim Adewunmi, Emanuele Berry, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Aviva DeKornfeld, Neil Drumming, Damien Gray, Michelle Harris, Jessica Lussenhop, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Ben Phelan, Catherine Raimondo, Nadia Reiman, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Nancy Updike.

今天制作我们节目的人员包括 Bim Adewunmi、Emanuele Berry、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Aviva DeKornfeld、Neil Drumming、Damien Gray、Michelle Harris、Jessica Lussenhop、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Ben Phelan、Catherine Raimondo、Nadia Reiman、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie惠特克和南希·厄普代克。

Our managing editor is Diane Wheeler.

我们的总编辑是黛安·惠勒。

Our executive editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的执行编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Special thanks to David [INAUDIBLE], [?

特别感谢大卫[听不清]，[？

Chris ?] [?

克里斯？] [？

Coons, ?] [?

浣熊，？] [？

Scott ?] [INAUDIBLE], [?

斯科特？] [听不清]，[？

John ?] [?

约翰？] [？

Harwood, ?] [?

哈伍德，？] [？

Harry ?] [INAUDIBLE], [?

哈利？] [听不清]，[？

Walter ?] [?

沃尔特？] [？

Shapiro, ?] [?

夏皮罗，？] [？

Ben ?] [?

本？] [？

Tourist, ?] the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, [?

旅游者，？] 负责任的联邦预算委员会，[？

Jamie ?] [?

杰米？] [？

Harrison, ?] [?

哈里森，？] [？

Andrea ?] [?

安德里亚？] [？

Gillespie, ?] [?

吉莱斯皮，？] [？

Josh ?] [INAUDIBLE], [?

乔什？] [听不清]，[？

Angela ?] [?

安吉拉？] [？

Davidson, ?] and [?

戴维森，？] 和 [？

Jay ?] [?

杰伊？] [？

A.

A.

?] [?

？] [？

Moore.

摩尔.

?]

？]

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can stream our archive of over 670 episodes.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中播放我们的 670 多集档案。

Also, there's videos and tons of other stuff there-- thisamericanlife.org.

此外，还有视频和大量其他内容 - thisamericanlife.org。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he organized a vote this week about what we should have for lunch as a staff.

你知道，他本周组织了一次投票，讨论我们作为员工午餐应该吃什么。

I don't know.

我不知道。

He seemed a little too proud of himself.

他似乎有点太骄傲了。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

[MUSIC - TOM PETTY AND THE HEARTBREAKERS, "EVEN THE LOSERS"]

[音乐 - 汤姆·佩蒂和伤心者乐队，“即使是失败者”]

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。