676: Here’s Looking at You, Kid - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #676 | May 22, 2026 676: Here’s Looking at You, Kid Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 676 集 | 2026 年 5 月 22 日 676：孩子，这是在看着你 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Gary did not want to become a football player, no interest in the game at all.
序言： 序言 Ira Glass 加里并不想成为一名足球运动员，对这项运动一点兴趣也没有。
He was a timid kid, the kind of kid who in baseball would close his eyes when he was up at bat, he was so scared of getting hit by the ball.
他是一个胆小的孩子，是那种在棒球比赛中击球时会闭上眼睛的孩子，他非常害怕被球击中。
But when you're in high school, your personality is still up for grabs.
但当你上高中时，你的个性仍然是可以争夺的。
And at Gary's high school, there was not one person, but two people with a very different vision of who he was.
在加里的高中，不是一个人，而是两个对他的看法截然不同的人。
They were assistant high school football coaches and very noticeable, big personalities.
他们是高中橄榄球助理教练，而且都是非常引人注目的大人物。
And they were twins.
他们是双胞胎。
And I didn't really know their name.
我真的不知道他们的名字。
I'd seen them around.
我在周围见过他们。
They were super handsome and in great shape.
他们非常英俊，身材也很好。
I mean, they were ripped.
我的意思是，它们被撕裂了。
And they would wear Gold's Gym tank tops and Jams, these shorts, these Hawaiian shorts.
他们会穿 Gold's Gym 背心和 Jams，这些短裤，这些夏威夷短裤。
They would wear those.
他们会穿那些。
And they had really long hair.
而且他们的头发真的很长。
And they were very charming, charismatic, funny.
他们非常迷人、有魅力、有趣。
And they were known as the Jetsyns, which was this self-proclaimed nickname, I think.
他们被称为 Jetsyns，我想这是他们自称的昵称。
Wait, they called themselves the Jetsyns?
等等，他们称自己为 Jetsyns？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass They referred to themselves--
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）他们自称——
Yeah, because the Jetsyns was people from the future.
是的，因为杰森一家是来自未来的人。
And they felt that they were like that.
他们觉得自己就是那样。
They were definitely the first people I ever noticed who referred to themselves in that-- is it the third person?
他们绝对是我注意到的第一批这样称呼自己的人——这是第三人称吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Gary Gulman So the Jetsyns are coming to get you.
加里·古尔曼：所以杰森一家会来抓你。
The Jetsyns will see you.
杰森一家会见到你。
The Jetsyns--
杰森一家——
That's what they would say?
他们会这么说吗？
Gary Gulman Sometimes they would say, Johnny Jetsyn will be with you today.
加里·古尔曼 有时他们会说，约翰尼·杰森今天会和你在一起。
Joe Jetsyn will be with you tomorrow.
乔·杰森明天会和你在一起。
And these magical figures, these assistant football coaches, they gave Gary his own nickname in the fall of junior year.
这些神奇的人物，这些助理足球教练，他们在大三秋天给加里起了自己的绰号。
It was not a glittery name like the Jetsyns, kind of the opposite, actually.
它并不是像杰森家族那样光鲜亮丽的名字，实际上恰恰相反。
Waste, they called him.
他们称他为废物。
As in waste of talent, to goad me into playing football.
激励我踢足球，就像浪费人才一样。
They told him that football would get him a college scholarship.
他们告诉他，踢足球可以让他获得大学奖学金。
It'll get him girls.
这会让他得到女孩。
They said the newspaper would write about him.
他们说报纸会报道他。
They wanted him on the team so badly because Gary was a giant compared to most of the kids playing football back then.
他们非常希望他加入球队，因为与当时大多数踢足球的孩子相比，加里是一个巨人。
This was in Peabody, Massachusetts, a Boston suburb near Salem in the late '80s.
这是八十年代末位于马萨诸塞州皮博迪市塞勒姆附近的波士顿郊区。
Most high school players back then were 5' 9", 5' 10".
当时大多数高中球员的身高都是 5 英尺 9 英寸、5 英尺 10 英寸。
Gary was 6' 6", 200 pounds.
加里身高 6 英尺 6 英寸，体重 200 磅。
And he was athletic, played basketball on his high school team.
他很运动，在高中球队打篮球。
Those coaches scolded him for his complete lack of aggression and for crying.
那些教练责骂他完全没有攻击性，而且还哭。
What he really loved doing was art projects, going to the arts and crafts store, reading.
他真正喜欢做的是艺术项目、去工艺品商店、读书。
He kept an enormous stuffed animal collection in his room, even in high school.
即使在高中时，他的房间里也收藏了大量的毛绒动物。
He was also pretty depressed at the time.
他当时的心情也相当郁闷。
Gary is a comedian today, Gary Gulman.
加里现在是一名喜剧演员，加里·古尔曼。
And on stage, when he tries to describe what he was like as a kid--
在舞台上，当他试图描述他小时候的样子时——
I talk about being Charlie Brown.
我谈论成为查理·布朗。
I say picture my childhood-- Charlie Brown if Snoopy had died.
我说想象一下我的童年——如果史努比死了的话，查理布朗。
That was my--
那是我的——
[LAUGHING] Gary Gulman That was my childhood.
[笑] 加里·古尔曼 那是我的童年。
I felt so sorry for him.
我为他感到非常难过。
Because Charlie Brown, the whole point of his character is that he's sad and lonely.
因为查理·布朗，他性格的全部要点就是他悲伤和孤独。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass But even that wasn't lonely enough.
艾拉·格拉斯：但即便如此也还不够孤独。
You have to kill off his dog?
你非得杀掉他的狗吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass So when the Jetsyns started telling him that they were going to make him into a star, he laughed it off.
Ira Glass 因此，当 Jetsyns 开始告诉他他们要让他成为明星时，他一笑置之。
He liked the attention from the Jetsyns, sure, but he did not consider this seriously at all.
当然，他喜欢杰森家族的关注，但他根本没有认真考虑这一点。
Football seemed brutal-- just nonstop, violent, physical contact.
足球看起来很残酷——只有不间断的、暴力的身体接触。
He did not think he could cut it.
他不认为他能剪掉它。
Guys he knew who played football, they were so tough.
他认识的那些踢足球的人都非常坚强。
Gary, on the other hand, he got picked on.
另一方面，加里却遭到了欺负。
He got bullied.
他被欺负了。
He was bullied out of Little League.
他被欺负出了少年棒球联盟。
So football?
那么足球呢？
No way.
没办法。
And then his junior year ended.
然后他的大三就结束了。
And just a couple of days into summer break-- it was June, 6:30 in the morning-- he got a phone call, woke him up.
暑假刚开始几天——那是六月，早上 6:30——他接到一个电话，把他叫醒了。
It's the twins.
这是双胞胎。
They said, Gulman, this is the Jetsyns.
他们说，古尔曼，这是杰森一家。
Meet us at the Universe Gym at 7:30.
7:30 在宇宙体育馆与我们见面。
We are going to train the Gulman this summer, and get the Gulman a scholarship, and make the Gulman into a star.
今年夏天我们要培养古尔曼，给古尔曼拿奖学金，让古尔曼成为明星。
By the end of the summer, you will be 245 pounds and ripped like Arnold.
到夏末，你的体重将达到 245 磅，并且像阿诺德一样肌肉发达。
It was so weird and bold.
这是如此奇怪和大胆。
And on the spur of the moment, he figures, what the hell?
一时冲动，他想，到底是什么？
And he has this thought that you have sometimes as a kid.
他有这种想法，就像你小时候有时也会有的那样。
He thinks, these adults say I can do this.
他想，这些大人说我能做到这一点。
Maybe they're right.
也许他们是对的。
They were so convincing.
他们是如此令人信服。
They were so convincing.
他们是如此令人信服。
And then there was a part of you that thought, like, yes, magical men.
然后你的一部分会想，是的，神奇的人。
It was?
是吗？
Gary Gulman Because they were so cool.
加里·古尔曼因为他们太酷了。
And my entire life, my family was more of a don't get your hopes up type of attitude or philosophy, if things don't always work out the way you want them to.
在我的一生中，如果事情并不总是按照你想要的方式发展，我的家庭更多的是一种不要抱太大希望的态度或哲学。
And so it was a very negative house.
所以这是一座非常消极的房子。
And I remember asking them.
我记得我问过他们。
I said, you guys really think I'm going to play on this high school football team?
我说，你们真的认为我会加入这支高中橄榄球队吗？
I don't have that much experience.
我没有那么多经验。
And they're answering-- should I swear?
他们回答——我应该发誓吗？
Say what really happened.
说说到底发生了什么。
Gary Gulman Every single time I would ask them any kind of question, they'd say, fuck, yeah.
加里·古尔曼（Gary Gulman）：每次我问他们任何问题，他们都会说，操，是的。
And not everybody was using that expression back then.
当时并不是每个人都使用这个表达方式。
That was the first instance of somebody saying that to me instead of "don't get your hopes up" and "we'll see." It was, fuck, yeah.
这是第一次有人对我说这样的话，而不是“不要抱太大希望”和“我们拭目以待”。是的，他妈的，是的。
And I was like, oh my gosh.
我当时想，天哪。
These guys are so, so exciting.
这些家伙真是太令人兴奋了。
And they believe in me.
他们相信我。
So that summer, every morning he works out with the Jetsyns from 7:30 to 9:30.
所以那个夏天，他每天早上 7:30 到 9:30 都会和 Jetsyn 一起锻炼。
Then they take him to a diner, and they buy him a big breakfast with eggs and other proteins.
然后他们带他去一家小餐馆，给他买了一顿丰盛的早餐，其中有鸡蛋和其他蛋白质。
At night, sometimes they'd teach him running routes.
晚上，有时他们会教他跑步路线。
Remember, Gary had never played football.
请记住，加里从未踢过足球。
And it was just like the Jetsyns said.
正如杰森夫妇所说。
It was incredible.
这太不可思议了。
It was like a Rocky montage.
这就像洛基蒙太奇。
I was getting stronger and bigger.
我变得越来越强壮、越来越大。
And they would say things.
他们会说一些话。
They had this thing, "The Gulman is getting huge.
他们有这样的事情，“古尔曼变得越来越大。
The Gulman is getting huge."
古尔曼变得越来越大。”
And so by the end of the summer, how did you look?
到了夏末，你看起来怎么样？
I looked fantastic, man.
我看起来棒极了，伙计。
I'd grown my hair long like them.
我和他们一样把头发留长了。
And clothes started to look really cool on me as I was filling out.
当我变胖的时候，衣服开始看起来很酷。
And they were right.
他们是对的。
I weighed 240 pounds.
我的体重是240磅。
I could bench press 225 pounds.
我可以卧推 225 磅。
I ran a 48.40, which was very impressive to everybody.
我跑出了 48.40，这给每个人留下了深刻的印象。
Everything about me had changed physically.
我的一切都发生了身体上的变化。
I had built this really great costume.
我制作了这件非常棒的服装。
Why do you say costume?
为什么说服装？
Gary Gulman Because it covered up who I really was.
加里·古尔曼 因为它掩盖了我的真实身份。
I was still the same Gary who cried at movies.
我还是那个看电影哭的加里。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass --that you're wearing, which is your new body.
Ira Glass——你所穿着的，这是你的新身体。
Yes.
是的。
I feel terrific.
我感觉棒极了。
Ira Glass And as it came time to start practices, you would think that he would be psyched to use this new body that he had created for the purpose it had been made for.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：当开始练习时，你会认为他会很高兴地使用这个他为达到其设计目的而创建的新身体。
Like, OK, he's Captain America.
就像，好吧，他是美国队长。
It's World War II.
现在是第二次世界大战。
Bring on the Nazis.
招惹纳粹。
But in fact, he was terrified of just getting hit, of the physical contact that's just built into football.
但事实上，他害怕被击中，害怕足球中的身体接触。
And a week before practice, he talks to a friend.
训练前一周，他和一位朋友交谈。
And he says to the friend he doesn't think he can do it.
他对朋友说他认为他做不到。
He doesn't think he can go through with it.
他认为他无法承受这一切。
Should he call the Jetsyns and tell them he's thought it over?
他应该打电话给杰森一家并告诉他们他已经考虑过了吗？
It's not for him.
这不适合他。
I'll never forget what he said.
我永远不会忘记他说的话。
He said, Gary, they will kill you.
他说，加里，他们会杀了你。
They spent their entire summer training you and feeding you.
他们整个夏天都在训练你、喂养你。
You can't.
你不能。
You have to go through with this.
你必须经历这一切。
So he did.
所以他做到了。
He went through with it.
他经历了这一切。
But the problem was, as John Jetsyn put it, he was a daisy in a field of wheat, a lamb among conquerors.
但问题是，正如约翰·杰森所说，他是麦田里的雏菊，征服者中的羔羊。
You can put a kid into a tough guy costume, but it doesn't always make him into a tough guy.
你可以让一个孩子穿上硬汉服装，但这并不总是能让他成为一个硬汉。
And of course, adults are always trying to convince kids and inspire kids about who they can be.
当然，成年人总是试图说服孩子并启发孩子他们可以成为什么样的人。
That's what good parents do.
这就是好父母所做的。
That's what good teachers do.
这就是好老师所做的。
But some kids, like Gary, just have trouble going along with the plan.
但有些孩子，比如加里，在执行计划时遇到了困难。
They want to please the adults.
他们想要取悦大人。
They want to do what they're asked.
他们想做他们被要求的事情。
But all the while, they genuinely wonder, can they actually become the person the adults are telling them to become?
但与此同时，他们真诚地想知道，他们真的能成为成年人告诉他们成为的人吗？
Is that them?
是他们吗？
Is that who they should be?
他们应该是这样的人吗？
And it's totally confusing for them.
这对他们来说完全令人困惑。
The adults in their lives seem to know what they're talking about.
他们生活中的成年人似乎知道他们在说什么。
They're adults, for God's sake.
看在上帝的份上，他们都是成年人了。
They're supposed to know better.
他们应该更了解。
But the kids end up wondering in a really primal way, who am I?
但孩子们最终会以一种非常原始的方式想知道，我是谁？
Well, from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
嗯，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Our show today in two acts.
我们今天的演出分两幕。
In the second act, adults make it so a woman can't even decide what is true about some of the most basic facts about her own history.
在第二幕中，成年人让女人甚至无法决定关于她自己的历史的一些最基本事实的真实性。
But we're going to start with this story, act one, Gary's story, which we're calling "Jersey?
但我们将从这个故事开始，第一幕，加里的故事，我们称之为“泽西？
Sure."
当然。”
Gary went to his first football practice, and it was just as bad as he'd imagined it would be.
加里第一次参加足球训练，结果和他想象的一样糟糕。
Guys rush at him and smash into him on every play.
每次比赛时，人们都会冲向他并撞向他。
It's totally painful.
真是太痛苦了。
He's completely miserable, bruised.
他浑身伤痕累累，十分痛苦。
He was in this one play.
他就出演了这一出戏。
This guy hit me helmet to helmet.
这家伙用头盔对头盔打我。
And it was so loud, like a gunshot.
而且声音很大，就像枪声一样。
And everybody noticed it.
每个人都注意到了这一点。
And they called it a biz.
他们称之为商业。
And the way it got its name was they said-- and the Jetsyns told me this-- they said the biz is the sound that it makes when you get hit in the head during a game, which is-- [MAKES BUZZING SOUND]
它得名的方式是他们说——Jetsyns 告诉我这一点——他们说嗡嗡声是当你在比赛中头部被击中时发出的声音，即——[发出嗡嗡声]
And each week, the guy who had the best hit on somebody else would get this T-shirt called the biz of the week T-shirt.
每周，对别人最感兴趣的人都会得到这件被称为本周最佳 T 恤的 T 恤。
And now we know that these things, these bizzes, they were concussions.
现在我们知道这些东西，这些嗡嗡声，它们是脑震荡。
But at the time, in 1988, the concussion protocol was pretty much, you good?
但当时，也就是 1988 年，脑震荡协议已经差不多了，你还好吗？
You good?
你好吗？
And that first time that I got bizzed, the Jetsyns were so proud of me.
当我第一次感到兴奋时，杰森一家为我感到骄傲。
They high-fived me, and they patted my head.
他们与我击掌，并拍拍我的头。
"The Gulman got bizzed, his first biz!" I was laughing along with them, but I was like, I hope that never happens again.
“古尔曼生意兴隆，这是他的第一个生意！”我和他们一起笑，但我想，我希望这种事再也不会发生。
So every day, Gary would show up at practice and hated it until, finally, they started to play real games.
所以每天，加里都会出现在训练中，他讨厌这样，直到最后，他们开始打真正的比赛。
And these are just preseason scrimmages, but they're against other high schools.
这些只是季前赛，但他们的对手是其他高中。
There's a crowd in the stands.
看台上挤满了人。
That changed everything from the very first time they put him in on offense.
从他们第一次让他进攻开始，一切都改变了。
They set up a play for me.
他们为我安排了一场戏。
It's this pass where they just throw it over the middle.
正是在这个传球中，他们将球传到了中路。
They throw it up high.
他们把它扔得很高。
And nobody can reach as high as I can jump.
没有人能跳得像我一样高。
I catch it.
我抓住了。
It takes a couple of guys to bring me down, just because I'm big and I want to run away from contact.
需要几个人才能让我失望，只是因为我很大，我想逃避接触。
There were fans.
有粉丝。
And they were cheering.
他们欢呼雀跃。
I will say that was exhilarating.
我会说那是令人兴奋的。
Coaches try him out on defense.
教练们在防守上考验他。
He barely knows what he's doing.
他几乎不知道自己在做什么。
And he sacks the other side's quarterback.
他解雇了对方的四分卫。
But I was just so much bigger than this kid that he couldn't outrun me, because he wasn't as fast as me, and he wasn't as strong as me.
但我比这孩子大太多了，他跑不过我，因为他没有我快，也没有我强壮。
So I was able to wrestle him to the ground.
所以我才能够把他按倒在地。
Anyhow, we go into the locker room.
不管怎样，我们走进更衣室。
And the coach is berating the other players on the team for not being aggressive.
教练还斥责队里的其他球员没有侵略性。
And he says, the only person out there sticking anybody-- which I don't know if they still use that expression, but I like that expression-- sticking anybody is Gary Gulman, a kid who never played football until this summer.
他说，唯一一个坚持任何人的人——我不知道他们是否仍然使用这个表达方式，但我喜欢这个表达方式——坚持任何人是加里·古尔曼，一个直到今年夏天才踢过足球的孩子。
And I had goose bumps.
我浑身起鸡皮疙瘩。
And it was like a movie.
这就像一部电影。
So it's all happening, just like Jetsyns said.
所以这一切都在发生，就像 Jetsyns 所说的那样。
All happening, just like the Jetsyns had said.
一切都发生了，就像杰森一家所说的那样。
It was uncanny.
这太不可思议了。
Opening game of the real season, the coaches start him.
真正赛季的揭幕战，教练让他首发。
This newbie player, he sacks the opposing quarterback right away.
这位新手球员，他立即解雇了对方四分卫。
And on offense--
而在进攻方面——
They threw me the ball three times.
他们把球扔给我三次。
I caught every single one.
我一一抓住了。
I mean, that night I go to my first high school party.
我的意思是，那天晚上我去参加我的第一次高中聚会。
I'd never--
我绝不会——
Really?
真的吗？
Gary Gulman --gone to a high school party.
加里·古尔曼——去参加一个高中聚会。
And it was such a letdown.
这真是令人失望。
Because you see--
因为你看到——
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
Gary Gulman --high school parties in movies.
加里·古尔曼——电影中的高中派对。
They're so exciting.
他们太令人兴奋了。
And there's sex.
还有性。
Yeah.
是的。
Gary Gulman And I just sat on a couch because I didn't drink.
加里·古尔曼：我只是坐在沙发上，因为我不喝酒。
And it was an incredible letdown.
这是令人难以置信的失望。
But I was invited--
但我被邀请了——
But you were in.
但你已经进去了。
You were in.
你在。
That's what's important.
这才是重要的。
At the party.
在聚会上。
Ira Glass You were there at the bad party.
艾拉·格拉斯 你参加了那个糟糕的聚会。
And then Sunday night, the night before school, a local newspaper reporter called me and interviewed me about this game.
然后周日晚上，也就是上学的前一天晚上，当地一家报纸的记者打电话给我，就这场比赛采访了我。
He said that I was the talk of the town.
他说我是镇上的话题。
And it talked about how everybody knew the ball was coming to me, and they couldn't stop me.
它讲述了每个人如何知道球正在向我而来，但他们无法阻止我。
And just like the Jetsyns had said, there were going to be newspaper articles.
正如杰森夫妇所说，报纸上会有文章。
There was a newspaper article in the Salem Evening News the next day that called me Mr. Raw Potential.
第二天，《塞勒姆晚报》上刊登了一篇文章，称我为“原始潜力先生”。
And it did not last.
但这种情况并没有持续多久。
The season opener, his first great game, was also his last great game.
赛季揭幕战是他的第一场精彩比赛，也是他最后一场精彩比赛。
I had one more decent game where I caught a pass, and I made a really, really good tackle.
我有一场更不错的比赛，我接住了一次传球，并且完成了一次非常非常好的铲球。
But the teams started to do this thing where they would send guys to block me and my legs.
但球队开始做这件事，他们会派人挡住我和我的腿。
And they would send a couple of guys, and they would just roll into my legs.
他们会派出几个人，他们就会滚到我的腿上。
I think it's called a cut block, if I remember properly, but that was how they would sort of neutralize me.
如果我没记错的话，我认为这被称为“剪切块”，但这就是他们压制我的方式。
And didn't the Jetsyns have some technique you could use to get around that?
难道 Jetsyns 没有一些可以用来解决这个问题的技术吗？
No. Either they didn't suggest one, or I wasn't able to employ it.
不。要么他们没有建议，要么我无法使用它。
Opposing quarterbacks learned to stay away from the side of the line that Gary was on.
对方四分卫学会远离加里所在的边线。
So he wasn't sacking anyone anymore.
所以他不再解雇任何人。
And after this one time when Gary fumbled the ball on a big play at the goal line, suddenly he says they stopped sending him out for passes.
自从加里在球门线的一次大进攻中掉球之后，他突然说他们不再派他出去传球了。
So no more heroic catches.
所以不再有英雄般的接球。
He wasn't making big plays.
他没有演大戏。
He was not living up to all that bright potential.
他没有充分发挥所有光明的潜力。
And some dark part of his personality kicked in, like maybe he was a waste after all.
他性格中的一些阴暗部分开始显现，好像他毕竟是个废物。
The man costume had fooled them for a while, but he was still the same person he had always been.
男人的装束愚弄了他们一段时间，但他还是原来的那个人。
He started to dread practices and games.
他开始害怕训练和比赛。
I would throw up before every game.
每场比赛前我都会呕吐。
On the sideline I would throw up because I was overcome by nerves and anxiety.
在场边我会因为紧张和焦虑而呕吐。
I started to feel really lousy about myself, and my grades suffered.
我开始对自己感觉很糟糕，我的成绩也受到了影响。
And I just knew that I was starting to disappoint these guys.
我只知道我开始让这些人失望了。
And they never said anything.
他们什么也没说。
To their credit, they never said, wow, we really had high hopes for you.
值得赞扬的是，他们从未说过，哇，我们真的对你寄予厚望。
It sounds crazy.
听起来很疯狂。
I still have nightmares about it.
我仍然会做噩梦。
His plan back then was make it through the season, one game a week.
当时他的计划是每周一场比赛，完成整个赛季。
Never play again.
永远不要再玩了。
And in the middle of this, a college football coach came into our locker room and introduced himself to me at my locker.
就在这中间，一位大学橄榄球教练走进我们的更衣室，在我的更衣室向我做了自我介绍。
And that was sort of a, what the hell is going on here?
这有点像，这里到底发生了什么？
Introduced himself to you?
向你作了自我介绍？
Gary Gulman Yeah.
加里·古尔曼 是的。
And said what?
并说了什么？
Gary Gulman He said, you had a great game, which I hadn't.
加里·古尔曼 他说，你打了一场精彩的比赛，而我却没有。
And I am an assistant at Dartmouth College.
我是达特茅斯学院的助理。
And we'd love for you to take a visit to Dartmouth.
我们希望您能够参观达特茅斯。
OK, here's the thing that Gary didn't know or understand at the time.
好吧，这是加里当时不知道或不明白的事情。
As disheartened as he was, his coaches did not think he was having a bad season.
尽管他很沮丧，但他的教练并不认为他度过了一个糟糕的赛季。
Sure, they weren't sending him out for passes, but the main reason for that, John Jetsyn told me on the phone, wasn't the fumble that Gary had made-- like Gary obsessed over-- it was that the quarterback couldn't throw reliable passes.
当然，他们并没有派他出去传球，但约翰·杰森在电话中告诉我，主要原因并不是加里的失球——就像加里痴迷的那样——而是四分卫无法传出可靠的传球。
Their team wasn't that good that year.
那一年他们的球队表现并不好。
And sure, yes, Gary didn't know how to stay on his feet when players threw themselves at his ankles, but John Jetsyn says he'd only been playing football a few months.
当然，是的，当球员扑向加里的脚踝时，加里不知道如何站起来，但约翰·杰森说他才踢球几个月。
Of course he hadn't mastered that.
当然，他还没有掌握这一点。
There wasn't time to teach him everything.
没有时间教他一切。
The Jetsyns still saw Gary as a diamond in the rough.
杰森一家仍然将加里视为未经加工的钻石。
Gary was doing everything they asked, ran his plays well.
加里做了他们要求的一切，表现出色。
He was more reliable than most of the team.
他比团队中的大多数人都更可靠。
And so the coaches did what they did with any player with a ton of potential.
所以教练们对任何有潜力的球员都采取了同样的做法。
They took video of Gary's best game, that great first game, made a bunch of copies, and sent it around to colleges.
他们拍摄了加里最好的比赛、那场伟大的第一场比赛的视频，制作了一堆副本，并将其发送给大学。
And after seeing that video, a parade of recruiters showed up at Gary's school.
看完这段视频后，一队招聘人员出现在加里的学校。
He'd get called out of class to meet them.
他会被叫下课去见他们。
He was approached by Harvard, Holy Cross, UMass, University of New Hampshire, University of Maine, and some top Division 1A schools, Syracuse and Boston College, his favorite, who'd recently won the Cotton Bowl.
哈佛大学、圣十字大学、麻省大学、新罕布什尔大学、缅因大学以及一些顶级 1A 级学校、锡拉丘兹大学和他最喜欢的波士顿学院（最近赢得了棉花碗赛）都曾与他接触过。
And also, there were players on the team who were All-Americans.
而且，球队中也有入选全美最佳阵容的球员。
I mean, this was a big time program that played a big time schedule against Penn State, and Notre Dame, and Ohio State, and USC.
我的意思是，这是一个重要的项目，在对阵宾夕法尼亚州立大学、圣母大学、俄亥俄州立大学和南加州大学的比赛中发挥了重要作用。
I mean, they were big time football.
我的意思是，他们是伟大的足球运动员。
And they had Heisman Trophy winner Doug Flutie.
他们还有海斯曼奖杯获得者道格·弗鲁蒂（Doug Flutie）。
He was the hero to everybody in my neighborhood.
他是我附近每个人的英雄。
And what do you remember of them recruiting you?
你还记得他们招募你的事吗？
I remember this man, who I had seen on TV because he had recruited Doug Flutie.
我记得这个人，我在电视上见过他，因为他招募了道格·弗鲁蒂。
And he was a New England celebrity.
他是新英格兰的名人。
His name was Jack Bicknell.
他的名字叫杰克·比克内尔。
I'll never forget it because he had an office at Boston College, and it overlooked the stadium.
我永远不会忘记它，因为他在波士顿学院有一间办公室，可以俯瞰体育场。
And he had a Heisman Trophy.
他还获得了海斯曼奖杯。
And he said, son-- I always loved being called son, and I would just melt.
他说，儿子——我一直喜欢被称为儿子，我会融化的。
It's like an arm around the shoulder.
就像一只手臂搂在肩膀上。
I don't know what it is about that word.
我不知道这个词是什么意思。
He said, son, I'm going to go ahead and offer you, which meant a scholarship.
他说，儿子，我要继续为你提供奖学金，这意味着奖学金。
I'm going to offer you.
我要给你提供。
And he said something to the effect of, you're 17 years old-- or maybe I was 18.
他说了一些大意的话，你已经 17 岁了——或者也许我 18 岁。
He said, you have an NFL body.
他说，你有 NFL 的身材。
And I remember thinking, wow, I've really fooled another one.
我记得我当时想，哇，我真的愚弄了另一个人。
And part of me was thinking, I was afraid this was going to happen because I'm going to have to take this scholarship.
我的一部分在想，我担心这会发生，因为我必须接受这项奖学金。
And I know I'm going to be in over my head.
我知道我会不知所措。
And then the other side of it was, this is so exciting, and somebody believes in me.
另一方面，这太令人兴奋了，有人相信我。
And did part of you feel like, oh, my god, I'm going to be playing for this incredible coach?
你是否感觉，天啊，我要为这位不可思议的教练效力？
Whatever problems I had in high school, this guy is the guy.
无论我在高中时遇到什么问题，这个人就是那个人。
He's a genius.
他是个天才。
He's going to fix whatever problem I had.
他会解决我遇到的任何问题。
I'm going to be a star.
我要成为明星。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass So he takes the scholarship.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）因此他获得了奖学金。
He says he has no idea how he would have paid for college without a football scholarship.
他说，如果没有足球奖学金，他不知道如何支付大学费用。
He works out all summer.
他整个夏天都在锻炼。
And by the time he gets to training camp, he was bigger than ever, 260 pounds.
当他到达训练营时，他的体重比以前更大了，达到了 260 磅。
His speed and strength, one of the best on the team.
他的速度和力量是队中最好的之一。
But it's clear right away.
但马上就清楚了。
I just felt so small.
我只是觉得自己好渺小。
I mean, these guys really were supermen.
我的意思是，这些人真的是超人。
Their aggressiveness, their strength-- it wasn't the same sport.
他们的攻击性、力量——这不是同一项运动。
And it was quite clear early on to the other players that I wasn't like them.
其他球员很早就很清楚我和他们不一样。
I didn't talk like--
我说话的样子不是——
Oh, is that true?
哦，是这样吗？
Gary Gulman Yeah.
加里·古尔曼 是的。
And I could be pushed around.
我可能会被摆布。
And I could be bullied.
我可能会被欺负。
There were guys who were going to go on to the NFL.
有些人打算继续参加 NFL。
There was one player who played for the Vikings.
有一名球员曾为维京人队效力。
And I remember one time I was lollygagging on a play, and he hit me and bizzed me.
我记得有一次我正在看一场戏，他打了我，把我打得晕乎乎的。
And he said to me afterwards-- and his nickname on the team was The Maniac, which you really have to do something impressive to get a nickname like that amongst these lunatics.
后来他对我说——他在队里的绰号是“疯子”，你真的必须做一些令人印象深刻的事情才能在这些疯子中获得这样的绰号。
He said to me, he said, you can't just stand there like that.
他对我说，他说，你不能就这样站在那里。
I could have killed you.
我本可以杀了你。
In the nicest way possible he said that he had let up, even though he had hit me harder than I had ever been hit in my life.
他以最好的方式说他已经放松了，尽管他对我的打击比我一生中受到的打击还要重。
Gary went into a full-blown depressive crisis-- not eating when he should've been eating like a horse, sleeping all the time, crying.
加里陷入了全面的抑郁危机——在他应该像马一样吃东西的时候却没有吃东西，一直在睡觉，哭泣。
The prevailing thing going on in my head is, I want to kill myself.
我脑子里最普遍的想法是，我想自杀。
I'm worthless.
我一文不值。
I'm useless.
我没用。
Everybody hates me.
每个人都讨厌我。
And did you have this feeling of, oh, I'm actually as strong as any of these guys?
你有没有这种感觉，哦，我实际上和这些人一样坚强？
You're stronger than most of them.
你比他们中的大多数人都强。
You're faster than most of them.
你比他们中的大多数人都快。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Like, I should be as good.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 就像，我也应该一样好。
Did you have a feeling of, well, if I just psych myself up in the right way, I'm going to be able to do this?
你是否有一种感觉，如果我以正确的方式给自己打气，我就能做到这一点？
Well, I just knew-- I knew who I was.
嗯，我只是知道——我知道我是谁。
And the problem is, I know who I am, and I hate him.
问题是，我知道我是谁，但我恨他。
I hate him.
我讨厌他。
He's so weak.
他太虚弱了。
And he disappoints.
他令人失望。
And he lets down.
他失望了。
And I just wanted to go back to the room and sleep and cry.
我只想回到房间睡觉并哭泣。
Yeah.
是的。
Did you have your stuffed animals with you?
你带了毛绒玩具吗？
No, but I had brought my blankie.
没有，但我带了毯子。
I grew up with a blankie that was in my crib, and I could never sleep without it.
我的婴儿床里有一条毛毯，我从小到大，没有它我就永远无法入睡。
But it was this thing that I was so ashamed of and never spoke about, really, to anybody because I thought that if anybody ever found that out, they would just be like, this guy's insane and also a woman.
但这件事让我感到非常羞愧，而且从来没有对任何人提起过，因为我想如果有人发现了这一点，他们会说，这个家伙疯了，而且还是个女人。
Did you have a roommate?
你有室友吗？
Gary Gulman I had a roommate, yeah.
加里·古尔曼 我有一个室友，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass And you would call it the blankie, not the blanket?
Ira Glass 你会称它为毯子，而不是毯子吗？
No, I always-- I mean, I referred to him-- I referred to him-- I called him blankie.
不，我总是——我的意思是，我提到他——我提到他——我叫他布兰基。
And whatever happened to it?
到底发生了什么？
Gary Gulman Oh, I still have it.
加里·古尔曼哦，我还留着它。
It's on my pillow right now in Harlem, yeah.
现在在哈林区我的枕头上，是的。
Wait.
等待。
Wait.
等待。
Seriously?
严重地？
Gary Gulman Yeah.
加里·古尔曼 是的。
Wait.
等待。
How old are you?
你今年多大？
Gary Gulman I'm 48.
加里·古尔曼 我今年 48 岁。
Do you need it?
你需要吗？
Gary Gulman No, but I-- it-- [SIGHS] I love it.
加里·古尔曼不，但是我——它——[叹气]我喜欢它。
It's there with the pillow.
它和枕头一起在那儿。
I put it in my computer bag so I can carry it on planes when I travel.
我把它放在电脑包里，这样我旅行时就可以随身携带它上飞机。
And is it a comfort?
这是一种安慰吗？
Gary Gulman Yeah.
加里·古尔曼 是的。
It's a comfort.
这是一种安慰。
It helps me sleep.
它帮助我睡眠。
I don't know how common it is.
我不知道这种情况有多常见。
And the fact that you keep asking me questions about it makes me think it's really odd.
事实上你一直问我相关问题让我觉得这很奇怪。
But you'll have like-- people who you're sleeping with will come over, and they'll sleep in your bed.
但是你会遇到这样的人——和你一起睡觉的人会过来，他们会睡在你的床上。
And there will be the blankie?
还有毯子吗？
Yeah, my partner, Shaday-- she's a woman-- she's been aware of it since we've been dating.
是的，我的伴侣沙迪——她是个女人——自从我们约会以来她就意识到了这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
Not a problem?
没问题吗？
Gary Gulman Not a problem, not until today.
加里·古尔曼 没问题，直到今天。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass Sorry.
[笑声] Ira Glass 抱歉。
I'm not trying to blankie shame you.
我并不是想羞辱你。
Anyway, back in college, first time Gary goes home for the weekend he stays in his room, cries, and sleeps, and won't talk to anybody.
不管怎样，回到大学，加里第一次回家过周末，他呆在自己的房间里，哭着，睡觉，不和任何人说话。
And his brother suggests he find a therapist.
他的兄弟建议他找一位治疗师。
The football team actually has counseling services set up for anybody who needs it.
足球队实际上为任何有需要的人提供咨询服务。
And when he gets back to school, Gary meets with the therapist, who asked him a lot of questions.
当他回到学校时，加里会见了治疗师，治疗师问了他很多问题。
And he said-- point blank, he said, why don't you just quit the football team?
他说——他直截了当地说，你为什么不退出橄榄球队呢？
And I-- like, that was ludicrous to me.
我——就像，这对我来说是可笑的。
And the way I would explain it now is, you have to understand my entire identity is wrapped up in this.
我现在要解释的是，你必须明白我的整个身份都包含在其中。
And if I quit, I will be proving the voice in my head that keeps telling me I'm weak, and soft, and worthless right.
如果我放弃，我就会证明我脑子里的那个声音一直告诉我我很软弱，很软弱，很没价值，对吧。
So he made it through the season.
所以他熬过了整个赛季。
The doctor prescribed him antidepressants, and the sadness and ruminations lifted.
医生给他开了抗抑郁药，悲伤和沉思都消失了。
And in the spring, Gary's therapist asked, what are you going to do about football for next year?
春天的时候，加里的治疗师问，明年你打算在足球方面做什么？
And Gary was like, I'll continue till I graduate.
加里说，我会继续下去，直到毕业。
And he said, listen, I never give advice.
他说，听着，我从不提供建议。
It's not my place to give advice, but I'm going to give you some advice.
这不是我提供建议的地方，但我会给你一些建议。
You need to quit the football team.
你需要退出足球队。
I said, if I quit the football team, I don't get to wear the uniform.
我说，如果我退出足球队，我就不能穿队服了。
I don't get to wear that jacket that gets me special treatment in the cafeteria and makes me interesting to the other students and the professors.
我不能穿那件让我在自助餐厅受到特殊待遇、让其他学生和教授对我感兴趣的夹克。
I said, if I'm not a football player, then who am I?
我说，如果我不是足球运动员，那我是谁？
And he said-- and I'll never forget it, the best answer-- he said, you'll be a man.
他说——我永远不会忘记，最好的答案——他说，你会成为一个男人。
But he didn't mean it, you'll be masculine, you'll be macho.
但他不是这个意思，你会有男子气概，你就会有男子气概。
He meant, you'll be an adult.
他的意思是，你会成为一个成年人。
Gary quit the team.
加里退出了球队。
He did keep the scholarship.
他确实保留了奖学金。
The counselor went to bat for him and convinced the school to let him keep it for four years.
辅导员为他辩护并说服学校让他保留四年。
And that same year, the year he quit football, Gary took the first real steps towards a different vision of who he'd be as an adult, a vision that was not handed to him by any of the grownups in his life, not his coaches, or his parents, or his teachers, but something he invented for himself.
同年，也就是他退出足球界的那一年，加里迈出了真正的第一步，迈出了对自己作为一个成年人的不同愿景的第一步，这个愿景不是由他生命中的任何一个成年人传递给他的，不是他的教练，不是他的父母，也不是他的老师，而是他为自己发明的东西。
That's the year he started writing jokes.
那一年他开始写笑话。
Do you know that I listen to your show, and I've heard people reveal things about themselves that I wouldn't reveal?
你知道我听你的节目时，听到人们透露一些我不会透露的关于他们自己的事情吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Gary Gulman And I never thought that the blankie would be one of those things, that there could be somebody being like, huh, I'd never tell anybody about a blanket.
加里·古尔曼（Gary Gulman） 我从没想过毯子会是其中之一，可能有人会说，嗯，我永远不会告诉任何人关于毯子的事。
I could care less that everybody knows now.
我不在乎现在每个人都知道。
So you feel no self-consciousness about it at all?
所以你对此完全没有感到不自在吗？
Not anymore.
不再。
I did for 47 years though.
不过我已经做了47年了。
I only mentioned it on stage this this year.
我今年才在台上提到过。
People laughed, and it redeemed everything.
人们笑了，它赎回了一切。
No, no, no. Now that you say that, I don't want to make you feel weird about it.
不，不，不。既然你这么说，我不想让你感到奇怪。
No, no. I think it's healthy.
不，不。我认为这很健康。
But you love Charlie Brown.
但你爱查理·布朗。
Who was the wisest character on the Peanuts cartoons?
谁是花生漫画中最聪明的角色？
Linus?
莱纳斯？
Gary Gulman Yeah.
加里·古尔曼 是的。
And he had a blankie.
他还有一条毯子。
All right, he's eight, or whatever he's supposed to be.
好吧，他已经八岁了，或者无论他应该是什么。
No, you're right.
不，你是对的。
He was old enough to have--
他已经足够大了——
He's a child.
他是个孩子。
Gary Gulman No, he is a child.
加里·古尔曼不，他是个孩子。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Gary has an HBO special coming out later this year called, Gary Gulman: The Great Depresh.
加里将于今年晚些时候推出 HBO 特别节目《加里·古尔曼：大萧条》。
If you're curious about his work, you can find it at garygulman.com.
如果您对他的作品感到好奇，可以在 garygulman.com 上找到。
Coming up, a 17-year-old tries to understand a moment that shaped her whole life.
接下来，一名 17 岁的女孩试图了解塑造她一生的时刻。
Fortunately for her, there's video.
对她来说幸运的是，有视频。
Unfortunately for her, it's more complicated than that.
不幸的是，对她来说，事情比这更复杂。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Here's Looking at You, Kid," stories of adults telling kids what they should think of themselves and kids trying to make sense of what they're told.
今天的节目“孩子，在这里看着你”，讲述了成年人告诉孩子们应该如何看待自己以及孩子们试图理解他们所告诉的内容的故事。
We've arrived at act two of our program, act two, "Grownups Know Things." That act title was actually a line from Lord of the Flies.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，“成年人知道事情”。该剧的标题实际上是《蝇王》中的一句台词。
Piggy says it, that grownups have a cup of tea and talk things through.
猪崽子说，大人喝杯茶，把事情说清楚。
And then everything is all right.
然后一切就都好了。
That's how grownups do it.
大人就是这么做的。
It's hopeful, and of course, wrongheaded.
这是充满希望的，当然，也是错误的。
So often things don't work out that well here in the adult world.
在成人世界里，事情往往并不那么顺利。
But in the story, it's this moment where a bunch of the boys chime in with their desire that they could turn to adults.
但在故事中，正是在这个时刻，一群男孩插话，表达了他们可以转向成年人的愿望。
And in this next act, a girl turns to an adult with that same kind of hope that the adult will set things right.
在下一幕中，女孩转向成年人，同样希望成年人能够纠正事情。
But over time, the adults that she turns to simply do not agree about some very fundamental things about her.
但随着时间的推移，她求助的成年人根本不同意她的一些非常基本的事情。
Eleanor Gordon-Smith reported this story for a book she wrote.
埃莉诺·戈登·史密斯在她写的一本书中报道了这个故事。
I got interested in uncertainty years ago.
几年前我对不确定性产生了兴趣。
There's a kind of uncertainty that we all live with where you don't know the answer, and it's not a big deal-- like what time the bus is coming, who left the front door open, where that pen went.
我们都生活在一种不确定性中，你不知道答案，但这没什么大不了的——比如公共汽车什么时候来、谁把前门开着、那支笔去了哪里。
But I wanted to know about the opposite-- high stakes uncertainty where the facts aren't decisive, and it hurts to not know what to think, where there are big consequences, it affects your whole life.
但我想知道相反的情况——高风险的不确定性，事实不是决定性的，不知道该怎么想会很痛苦，如果会产生重大后果，它会影响你的一生。
I wanted to know, is it possible to just sit in that kind of foundational doubt?
我想知道，是否有可能只是处于这种基本的怀疑之中？
Or do you just have to flip a coin and pick something, anything to believe?
或者你只需掷硬币并选择一些东西，任何值得相信的东西？
Which is how I got interested in Nicole Kleumper.
这就是我对妮可·克莱姆珀感兴趣的原因。
She's 40 now, but this starts when she was 16.
她现在已经 40 岁了，但这一切是从她 16 岁开始的。
And she just couldn't catch a break.
而她就是无法休息。
She was in foster care after her dad, who had sole custody of her for most of her life, had a stroke and died.
在她一生大部分时间独自监护她的父亲中风去世后，她被寄养在寄养家庭。
She'd bounced around between friends' houses, but wound up in a group home.
她曾在朋友家之间辗转，最后却住进了集体之家。
I just felt very adrift in the world and unanchored.
我只是觉得自己在这个世界上漂泊不定，没有锚定。
Having lost my father, my best friend, I was so alone.
失去了父亲，我最好的朋友，我感到非常孤独。
And I just-- I was reaching out for something to feel connected to.
我只是——我正在寻找一些可以让我感到有联系的东西。
She started really wanting to know about her mom.
她开始非常想了解她的妈妈。
She lived nearby, just a couple hours drive, but they hadn't seen each other in more than 10 years.
她住在附近，只有几个小时的车程，但他们已经十多年没有见面了。
The custody court hadn't even allowed visits.
监护法庭甚至不允许探视。
And Nicole didn't know why.
妮可不知道为什么。
A quick warning-- what I'm about to go into mentions different kinds of abuse.
一个简短的警告——我即将讨论的内容提到了不同类型的虐待。
Nicole had a foggy thought that her mom might have done something bad to her as a kid.
妮可有一个模糊的想法，她妈妈可能在她还是个孩子的时候对她做了什么坏事。
She remembered saying something to someone when she was young about her mom burning her feet on a stove and remembered something about a sexual abuse allegation.
她记得年轻时曾对某人说过她妈妈在炉子上烧她的脚，还记得有关性虐待指控的事情。
But could that be right?
但这是对的吗？
Surely, she'd remember those things actually happening, but she didn't.
当然，她会记得那些实际发生的事情，但她没有。
What if her dad had just made her say those things about her mom?
如果她爸爸刚刚让她说出那些关于她妈妈的话怎么办？
It had been a really ugly custody battle.
这是一场非常丑陋的监护权之争。
Each parent said all kinds of things about the other.
父母双方都对对方说了各种各样的话。
What if her dad wanted custody so bad he invented all these awful stories?
如果她父亲非常想要监护权，以至于编造了所有这些可怕的故事怎么办？
There was so much about her mom that Nicole didn't know, so she arranged to meet her mom in person.
关于她妈妈的事情太多了，妮可不知道，所以她安排亲自去见她妈妈。
They did.
他们做到了。
They started seeing each other more regularly, but it always felt off.
他们开始更频繁地见面，但总是感觉不舒服。
Once, she remembers sitting next to her mom at dinner and putting her head down on the table in front of her.
有一次，她记得吃晚饭时坐在妈妈旁边，把头放在她面前的桌子上。
She rubbed my back, and it was very, very uncomfortable.
她揉着我的背，感觉非常非常不舒服。
And I had a pretty strong reaction to it.
我对此反应非常强烈。
Nicole says they didn't talk about any abuse.
妮可说他们没有谈论任何虐待行为。
And then in the middle of that doubt, a piece of evidence seemed to fall from the sky, and with it, the promise of knowing what had happened in the custody dispute.
然后就在疑惑之中，一个证据似乎从天而降，随之而来的是知道监护权纠纷中发生了什么的承诺。
Dr. Dave Corwin phoned Nicole.
戴夫·科文医生给妮可打了电话。
He was the child psychiatrist in the custody battle that had split Nicole off from her mom.
他是导致妮可与母亲分离的监护权争夺战中的儿童精神病医生。
And he had videotapes of interviews he'd done with her when she was a very young girl.
他还有她很小的时候对她进行采访的录像带。
It had been his job to investigate the abuse allegations.
调查虐待指控是他的工作。
He'd had a question.
他有一个问题。
He was speaking at a conference.
他在一次会议上发表讲话。
Would it be OK if he showed those people the tapes?
如果他给那些人看录音带可以吗？
Nicole remembered Corwin.
妮可记得科温。
She remembered that he'd been nice to her as a kid.
她记得小时候他对她很好。
She said, yeah, he could use them, but could she see those tapes too?
她说，是的，他可以使用它们，但她也能看到那些磁带吗？
He agreed and recorded their meeting.
他同意并记录了他们的会面。
I don't know the effect-- because it's never been done, to my knowledge-- this will have on you, OK?
我不知道效果——因为据我所知，这件事从未做过——这会对你产生影响，好吗？
So I'm sitting across from Dr. Corwin, and there's a video camera.
我坐在科文博士对面，那里有一台摄像机。
I'm getting ready to watch the tapes of myself at five years old.
我正准备看自己五岁时的录像带。
And he went through a very lengthy informed consent.
他还签署了一份非常长的知情同意书。
At this stage, you're 17 years old.
在这个阶段，你已经17岁了。
What I'm doing is I'm doing this informed consent directly with you, saying here's the issues, as I understand them.
我正在做的是直接与您进行知情同意，并说明我所理解的问题。
And then it's up to you, OK?
然后就由你决定了，好吗？
Finally, we got to the point where he was going to shut off the video camera so that I could watch my five-year-old self.
最后，我们到了他要关掉摄像机的地步，这样我就可以看到五岁的自己了。
And he asked me, what do you recall?
他问我，你还记得什么？
Why don't we start with, if you could just tell me what you can recall of that time.
如果你能告诉我你能回忆起那段时间的事情，我们为什么不开始呢？
I think I described one of the offices that he did one of the interviews in, in a striped sweatshirt that I was wearing at the time.
我想我描述了他接受采访时所在的一间办公室，当时我穿着一件条纹运动衫。
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: I was wearing a sweatshirt that was striped this way, OK?
（主题）17 岁的 NICOLE KLEUMPER：我穿着一件这样条纹的运动衫，好吗？
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
When I think of these interviews, that's the first thing I think of.
当我想到这些采访时，这是我首先想到的。
17-year-old Nicole says she can't remember whether her mom really did hurt her.
17 岁的妮可说她不记得妈妈是否真的伤害过她。
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: I told you, I guess, I told the court that my mom burned my feet on the stove.
（主题）17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：我告诉过你，我猜，我告诉法庭，我妈妈在炉子上烧伤了我的脚。
And I still don't remember if that's, in fact, how I was burned.
我仍然不记得我是否真的就是这样被烧伤的。
Really, that's the most serious accusation against her that I remember.
真的，这是我记忆中对她最严重的指控。
That's what I'm having a problem remembering.
这就是我记忆力有问题的原因。
I've come here trying not to determine already that she's done it or that she's guilty.
我来到这里，试图不去确定她已经这么做了，或者她有罪。
And I've come here trying not to say, well, she's innocent.
我来到这里是不想说，好吧，她是无辜的。
She didn't do anything.
她什么也没做。
I refuse to believe she's done anything.
我拒绝相信她做了任何事。
I really want to know.
我真的很想知道。
And then Corwin brings up the allegation of sex abuse.
然后科温提出了性虐待的指控。
David Corwin literally asks me, do you remember any allegations of sexual abuse?
大卫·科温问我，你还记得任何性虐待的指控吗？
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: No.
（主题）17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：不。
And my initial reaction is actually, no.
我最初的反应实际上是，不。
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: I mean, I remember that was part of the accusation.
（主题）17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：我的意思是，我记得这是指控的一部分。
And then he starts to speak, and I say, wait.
然后他开始说话，我说，等等。
Hold on a second.
等一下。
You don't remember any-- 17-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: [INAUDIBLE] I do.
你不记得任何—— 17 岁的 Nicole Kleumper（主题） 17 岁的 NICOLE KLEUMPER：[听不清] 我记得。
17-year-old Nicole's whole demeanor changes at this moment.
17岁的妮可在这一刻整个人的神态都变了。
It's instant and kind of strange to watch.
这是即时的，而且看起来有点奇怪。
She becomes completely still, and she's staring into middle distance.
她变得完全静止，凝视着中距离。
What do you remember?
你还记得什么？
17-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Oh, my gosh.
17 岁妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 17 岁妮可·克莱姆珀：哦，天哪。
That's really, really weird.
这真的非常非常奇怪。
I accused her of, when she was bathing me here, whatever, hurting me.
我指责她，当她在这里给我洗澡时，无论如何，伤害了我。
And that's when I started to recount some details of a memory that came back to me.
就在那时，我开始回忆一些记忆中的细节。
As you're saying that to me, do you remember having said those things?
当你对我说这些的时候，你还记得说过那些话吗？
Or you remember having experienced those things?
或者你记得经历过那些事情吗？
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: I remember it happening, that she hurt me.
（主题）17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：我记得发生过这样的事，她伤害了我。
Hurt you, where, how?
伤害你，在哪里，如何？
17-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: She hurt me.
17 岁妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 17 岁妮可·克莱姆珀：她伤害了我。
There's tissues right here, right over there.
这里、那边都有纸巾。
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: But see, I don't know if it was intentional hurt.
（主题）17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：但是你看，我不知道这是否是故意伤害。
She was bathing me.
她正在给我洗澡。
And I only remember one instance.
我只记得一个例子。
And she hurt me.
她伤害了我。
She put her fingers too far where she shouldn't have, and she hurt me.
她把手指伸得太远，弄痛了我。
That's the first time I've remembered that since saying that when I was six years old, but I remember.
自从我六岁时说过这句话以来，这是我第一次记得这句话，但我记得。
You remember being-- 17-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Yeah, I remember it happening.
你记得 - 17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：是的，我记得它发生过。
OK.
好的。
Nicole Kleumper It was like a movie set where the walls-- there's no roof, like I was sitting up on the walls looking down into a bathroom and my biological mother bathing younger me.
Nicole Kleumper 这就像一个电影场景，墙壁没有屋顶，就像我坐在墙上，俯视着浴室，而我的亲生母亲正在给年轻的我洗澡。
And she touches me inappropriately.
她不恰当地触碰了我。
That's where the memory stops.
那就是记忆停止的地方。
So it's like you're watching it from outside of yourself, from above?
所以这就像是你从自己的外部、从上方观看它一样？
Yes.
是的。
But I could feel the pain though.
但我还是能感觉到疼痛。
And I remember saying, it's like I took a snapshot of the pain.
我记得我说过，这就像我拍下了痛苦的快照。
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: A picture of the pain and what was inflicting the pain.
（主题）17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（NICOLE KLEUMPER）：一张疼痛的照片以及造成疼痛的原因。
It was my biological mother.
那是我的亲生母亲。
Eleanor Gordon-Smith Even before she saw the tapes, Nicole at 17 felt she'd got the certainty she wanted.
埃莉诺·戈登-史密斯 (Eleanor Gordon-Smith) 17 岁的妮可 (Nicole) 在看到这些录音带之前就觉得她已经得到了她想要的确定性。
She remembered her mother actually hurting her.
她记得她的母亲确实伤害过她。
She watched the videos of herself as a small girl anyway.
无论如何，她还是看了自己小时候的视频。
Corwin shut off the recorder while she did.
当她这样做时，科温关掉了录音机。
And this remarkable thing happened.
这件非凡的事情发生了。
Nicole saw herself as a young girl, describing the very same abuse, almost verbatim.
妮可将自己视为一个年轻女孩，几乎逐字逐句地描述了同样的虐待行为。
I've seen the videos.
我看过这些视频。
It's the '80s.
现在是 80 年代。
A very small Nicole is in pigtails and white stockings.
很小的妮可扎着辫子，穿着白色丝袜。
Corwin's in a big plaid shirt and shaggy hair.
科温穿着一件大格子衬衫，头发蓬乱。
And he asks right away about Nicole's mom.
他立即询问了妮可妈妈的情况。
What's she like?
她是什么样的人？
Six-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Mean.
六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：卑鄙。
Why is she mean?
她为什么这么刻薄？
Six-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Hurts me.
六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：伤害了我。
How does she hurt you?
她怎么伤害你了？
Six-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Like sticks her finger up my vagina, about up to there on my finger.
六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：就像将她的手指伸进我的阴道，大约伸到我的手指上。
When did she do that?
她什么时候这么做的？
Six-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: All the time when she gives me a bath.
六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：每次她给我洗澡的时候。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
What did you say to her when she did that to you?
当她对你这样做时，你对她说了什么？
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: I said, don't do that.
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：我说过，不要那样做。
I said, ouch.
我说，哎哟。
She says her mom burned her feet over a hot stove.
她说她妈妈在热炉子上烧伤了她的脚。
Corwin tries to figure out if Nicole knows the difference between what's real and what's make believe.
科文试图弄清楚妮可是否知道真实与虚构之间的区别。
He asks her to separate things like President Reagan-- real, which she knows-- from things like Superman-- make believe, which she also knows.
他要求她将里根总统这样的事情——真实的，她知道的——与超人——虚构的事情区分开来，她也知道这一点。
He gets her to swear on her oath as a Brownie that what she said about her mother is real.
他让她以布朗尼的身份发誓，她所说的关于她母亲的事情都是真实的。
She does.
她做到了。
She holds three little fingers up in the Brownie salute.
她举起三个小手指行布朗尼礼。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: On my honor, I will try to serve God and my country.
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：以我的名誉担保，我将努力为上帝和我的国家服务。
There are other concerning details about Nicole's mom.
关于妮可的妈妈还有其他令人担忧的细节。
Once, she had dropped Nicole off to see Dr. Corwin for one of their recorded sessions.
有一次，她送妮可去见科温医生，听他们录制的一次疗程。
And Nicole, who'd seemed happy to be recorded and speak clearly into the microphone when her dad dropped her off, is suddenly concerned that the microphone would broadcast what she's saying into the waiting room where her mom sits.
当她爸爸送她下车时，妮可似乎很高兴能被录音并对着麦克风清晰地讲话，但她突然担心麦克风会将她所说的话传播到她妈妈所在的候诊室。
Corwin asks her about the abuse she described the week before.
科温询问她一周前描述的虐待事件。
Did she remember talking about that?
她记得说过这件事吗？
A little bit, Nicole says quietly.
一点点，妮可轻声说道。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: I don't.
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：我不知道。
OK.
好的。
Tell me the little bit that you remember.
告诉我你记得的一点点。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Does that talk out to the waiting room?
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（NICOLE KLEUMPER）：这会在候诊室里说话吗？
No, it doesn't.
不，事实并非如此。
They can't hear us, OK?
他们听不到我们的声音，好吗？
They can't hear us out there.
他们在外面听不到我们的声音。
And you're safe here, OK?
你在这里很安全，好吗？
And I'm not going to-- after we get done talking, I'm not going to tell them what you tell me, OK?
我不会——在我们谈完之后，我不会告诉他们你告诉我的事情，好吗？
It's just between you and I right now,
现在只是你我之间
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: (WHISPERS) OK.
（对象）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：（低声）好的。
OK?
好的？
Eleanor Gordon-Smith OK, she whispers, before going on to talk about being burned and touched in the bath.
埃莉诺·戈登·史密斯：好的，她低声说道，然后继续谈论在浴缸中被烧伤和触摸的事情。
In another interview, Nicole says her mother's told her to lie.
在另一次采访中，妮可说她的母亲让她撒谎。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: When's my dad going to be back?
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：我爸爸什么时候回来？
Hm?
嗯？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know when he's going to come back.
我不知道他什么时候回来。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: He's in court.
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：他在法庭上。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: My mother.
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：我的母亲。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: That she threatened me.
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：她威胁我。
That she what?
那她什么？
Six-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Threatened me.
六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：威胁我。
Threatened you?
威胁你了？
How's that?
怎么样？
Six-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Threatened me that if I didn't lie to the CPS, that she would do something bad to me.
六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：威胁我，如果我不向 CPS 撒谎，她就会对我做坏事。
She's talking about CPS, Child Protective Services.
她谈论的是 CPS，即儿童保护服务。
If you didn't do what?
如果你没做什么？
Six-year-old Nicole Kleumper (SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: Lie to the CPS man.
六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀（主题） 六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：对 CPS 男子撒谎。
(SUBJECT) SIX-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: To me.
（主题）六岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：对我来说。
Well, when did she say that?
嗯，她什么时候这么说的？
Eleanor Gordon-Smith So that's the video of six-year-old Nicole.
埃莉诺·戈登·史密斯 这是六岁妮可的视频。
Corwin then asks 17-year-old Nicole how she's feeling about what she just saw.
随后，科温询问 17 岁的妮可，她对刚刚看到的景象有何感想。
She says there are some questions that might never be answered, but her biggest question about why she didn't grow up with her mom, that had an answer.
她说有些问题可能永远不会得到解答，但她最大的问题是为什么她没有和妈妈一起长大，这个问题已经有了答案。
She was sure her mom had abused her.
她确信她妈妈虐待了她。
(SUBJECT) 17-YEAR-OLD NICOLE KLEUMPER: But I do have an explanation in my mind.
（主题）17 岁的妮可·克莱姆珀：但我心里确实有一个解释。
And I can now realize it's not my fault.
我现在可以意识到这不是我的错。
And I can put that chapter behind me, and I can go on.
我可以把那一章抛在脑后，然后继续下去。
And yeah, I do think it's a very healthy thing to not run from something.
是的，我确实认为不逃避某事是一件非常健康的事情。
For Nicole, the tapes end her memory, proved what had happened to her as a kid.
对于妮可来说，这些录音带结束了她的记忆，证明了她小时候发生的事情。
It was a relief.
这是一种解脱。
She'd been worried that she was going to learn that her dad really did coach her to lie about her mom.
她一直担心自己会发现她的父亲确实教她在母亲的事情上撒谎。
Now she could put that aside.
现在她可以把这件事放在一边了。
She could remember him the way she always had, as her best friend and a good dad.
她仍能像往常一样记得他，作为她最好的朋友和好父亲。
But then Corwin published a case study about Nicole.
但随后科文发表了一篇关于妮可的案例研究。
He didn't use her name.
他没有使用她的名字。
He called her Jane Doe.
他叫她简·无名。
But Corwin's case study became part of a huge dispute that was fracturing psychology in the '90s.
但科文的案例研究成为了 20 世纪 90 年代心理学界一场巨大争议的一部分。
It was called the memory wars.
这被称为记忆战争。
And the argument was about whether repressed memories, adults suddenly remembering trauma, were real.
争论的焦点是压抑的记忆，即成年人突然记起创伤，是否真实。
Some scientists believed repressed memories were possible, others said no way.
一些科学家认为压抑的记忆是可能的，另一些科学家则表示不可能。
Nicole's videotapes and Corwin's article were co-opted by the side that thought repressed memories were real.
妮可的录像带和科温的文章被认为被压抑的记忆是真实的一方所采用。
They thought Nicole's case proved it.
他们认为妮可的案例证明了这一点。
Corwin hadn't seen this coming.
科温没有预料到会发生这样的事。
I've spoken to him.
我已经和他谈过了。
He says he wasn't on either side.
他说他不站在任何一方。
Dr. Elizabeth Loftus read Corwin's article with one eyebrow firmly raised.
伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯博士读完科文的文章后，眉毛坚定地扬起。
She was a psychology professor at the University of Washington and a big deal.
她是华盛顿大学的心理学教授，是一位大人物。
It was her experiments that proved memories are malleable.
她的实验证明记忆是可塑的。
And she was a star witness in high profile court cases where she argued that eyewitness recollections aren't reliable.
她是备受瞩目的法庭案件中的明星证人，她辩称目击者的回忆并不可靠。
So when the memory wars began, she knew which side she was on.
所以当记忆之战开始时，她知道自己站在哪一边。
She thought repressed memories were almost never real.
她认为压抑的记忆几乎从来都不是真实的。
She wrote a doorstop of a book called, The Myth of Repressed Memory.
她写了一本名为《压抑记忆的神话》的书的门挡。
And when she read the Jane Doe case, she was alarmed.
当她读到无名氏案件时，她感到震惊。
I knew that people were using this case as the new proof of repressed memory.
我知道人们正在利用这个案例作为压抑记忆的新证据。
It was being discussed academically.
学术界正在对此进行讨论。
It was being introduced into court cases to prove that repressed memory is real and has been proven.
它被引入法庭案件以证明被压抑的记忆是真实的并且已经被证明。
It was being used against people whom I thought were innocent because they were on trial in their cases.
它被用来对付那些我认为无辜的人，因为他们正在接受审判。
And so we had to get to the bottom of it.
所以我们必须追根究底。
Part of her suspicion was the message, and part was the messenger.
她的怀疑部分来自于消息，部分来自于信使。
She'd seen Corwin testify in court on another case.
她见过科文在法庭上就另一起案件作证。
A patient accused their therapist of abuse, and she didn't find him persuasive there either.
一名病人指责他们的治疗师虐待她，但她也觉得他没有说服力。
I already had a suspicion about Corwin and his judgment, I think, going into this situation because of the work I had seen him do on this other case and how he had pretty much helped to ruin the life of this poor female psychiatrist who was the accused person in this other case.
我想，我已经对科文和他的判断产生了怀疑，因为我看到他在另一起案件中所做的工作，以及他如何帮助毁掉了另一起案件中这位可怜的女精神病学家的被告人的生活。
You're saying that the female psychiatrist was accused of abuse?
你是说那个女精神科医生被指控虐待？
And Corwin was saying that that had happened?
科文说那件事已经发生了？
In so many words, yes.
用这么多话来说，是的。
He was an expert for the accuser.
他是原告的专家。
Loftus decided to investigate the Jane Doe case.
洛夫特斯决定调查无名氏案件。
She wanted to know whether the abuse had really happened.
她想知道虐待是否真的发生过。
But to do that, she needed to know the real name of that little girl.
但要做到这一点，她需要知道那个小女孩的真实姓名。
Rather than ask Corwin, which would be normal for a researcher looking into someone else's study, she decided to dig around on her own.
她没有去问科温，这对于研究别人的研究的研究人员来说是很正常的，而是决定自己去挖掘。
Loftus knew where to start.
洛夫特斯知道从哪里开始。
Clues in the tapes.
录音带里有线索。
At some point in the tape, he called her Nicole.
在录音带的某个时刻，他称她为妮可。
And I just made a little mental note.
我只是在心里记下了一点。
Hm, her name is Nicole.
嗯，她的名字叫妮可。
He said something like, and when you were living in Fresno.
他说了类似的话，当你住在弗雷斯诺时。
And I thought, hm, it has something to do with Fresno, that kind of thing.
我想，嗯，这与弗雷斯诺有关，诸如此类的事情。
She contacted a private investigator to run down some tips.
她联系了一名私家侦探以获取一些线索。
She searched death records for Nicole's father.
她搜索了妮可父亲的死亡记录。
She found dozens of matches.
她找到了几十个匹配项。
And she started narrowing them down, closing in on the real Jane Doe.
她开始缩小范围，接近真正的无名氏。
Nicole, meanwhile, was thinking very little about her time as Jane Doe.
与此同时，妮可很少思考她扮演无名氏的时光。
She left foster care and was making her own life as an adult.
她离开了寄养家庭，开始了自己的成年人生活。
She joined the Navy.
她加入了海军。
She was learning to fly military helicopters.
她正在学习驾驶军用直升机。
And she decided to become a psychologist, she says, because she wanted to be like Corwin.
她说，她决定成为一名心理学家，因为她想像科文一样。
She felt safe when she was talking to him as a kid, when she was being listened to.
当她还是个孩子的时候，当她和他说话，当她被倾听时，她感到安全。
She wanted to make other people feel that way.
她想让其他人也有这样的感觉。
She started acing her psychology classes at night while she trained as a pilot during the day.
她开始在晚上的心理学课程中取得好成绩，而白天则接受飞行员培训。
A couple of years into her military service, stationed in Hawaii, she got an odd phone call from a close family friend.
她在夏威夷服兵役几年后，接到了一位亲密的家庭朋友打来的奇怪电话。
Said, hey, there's something going on.
说，嘿，有事情发生。
There's a private investigator looking for you.
有一个私家侦探在找你。
And what did you think?
你觉得怎么样？
Nicole Kleumper Oh, my gosh.
妮可·克莱姆珀 哦，天哪。
Why on earth?
为什么在地球上？
What on earth?
到底是什么？
What is happening now?
现在发生了什么？
And I knew within moments of hearing the words "private investigator" that this had something to do with Dave's journal article.
我一听到“私家侦探”这个词就知道这与戴夫的期刊文章有关。
It was the only thing she'd ever been part of that might be interesting to an investigator.
这是她参与过的唯一一件调查员可能感兴趣的事情。
She called Corwin, who learned Loftus was behind it.
她打电话给科温，科温得知洛夫特斯是幕后黑手。
Loftus interviewed Nicole's foster mom, former step-mom, family friends who knew her growing up.
洛夫特斯采访了妮可的养母、前继母以及认识她成长过程中的家人朋友。
She'd even interviewed Nicole's biological mom and said she might have been wrongly accused.
她甚至采访了妮可的亲生母亲，并表示她可能被错误地指控。
Nicole, hearing about Loftus, was like, absolutely not.
妮可听到洛夫特斯的事后表示，绝对不是。
I felt intruded upon.
我感到被侵犯了。
I felt violated, very vulnerable, very exposed.
我感到被侵犯，非常脆弱，非常暴露。
And I understand that that probably sounds weird, given that I had already given Dave my consent to publish a story about intimate details of my life.
我知道这可能听起来很奇怪，因为我已经同意戴夫发表一个关于我生活私密细节的故事。
But there's a very, very big difference between someone asking you to investigate parts of your life and someone doing so without your knowledge or permission.
但是，有人要求你调查你生活的某些部分，和有人在你不知情或未经你许可的情况下这样做，是有非常非常大的区别的。
I did exchange emails with her, and I asked her to stop what she was doing.
我确实与她交换了电子邮件，并要求她停止她正在做的事情。
And what did she say?
她说了什么？
Nicole Kleumper In so many words, no.
妮可·克伦珀 (Nicole Kleumper) 总而言之，不是。
Did she ask you any direct questions while she was looking into the case?
她在调查此案时是否直接问过你问题？
No. Eleanor Gordon-Smith Did that strike you as kind of odd?
不，埃莉诺·戈登-史密斯 这让您觉得有点奇怪吗？
Nicole complained to Loftus's university, who told her to stop investigating the Jane Doe case.
妮可向洛夫特斯的大学投诉，学校告诉她停止调查无名氏案件。
I just got the call from some administrator on my campus, saying, are you looking into this case?
我刚刚接到校园管理员的电话，说，你们正在调查这个案子吗？
I said, yes, I'm looking into this case.
我说，是的，我正在调查这个案子。
And they came and seized my files.
他们来了，没收了我的文件。
I mean, I couldn't believe this was happening.
我的意思是，我简直不敢相信这会发生。
When can the administrators come to your office and just take your files?
管理员什么时候可以到您的办公室拿走您的文件？
Loftus was eventually cleared, and she published her findings on Jane Doe.
洛夫特斯最终被证明无罪，并发表了关于无名氏的调查结果。
She argued that the abuse might never have happened.
她认为虐待事件可能永远不会发生。
Of course, this was the opposite of what Nicole had believed and clung to since she was 17.
当然，这与妮可从 17 岁起就坚信并坚持的理念相反。
Loftus printed eight pages worth of doubts in a magazine and called the article "Who Abused Jane Doe?" When Nicole heard the article was on stand, she took a friend from her military base and drove 50 miles to Barnes & Noble where they stood side by side reading it.
洛夫特斯在一本杂志上发表了八页的疑点，并称这篇文章为“谁虐待了无名氏？”当妮可听说这篇文章被立案后，她带着一位来自军事基地的朋友开车 50 英里来到巴诺书店，在那里他们并肩阅读这篇文章。
It was so hurtful.
太伤人了。
It was so ridiculous to me that someone basically interviewed everyone in my life who had known me when I was a child, except me, and then went ahead and patchworked together this story that just so happened to completely support her hypothesis.
对我来说太荒谬了，有人基本上采访了我生命中所有小时候认识我的人，除了我，然后继续拼凑出这个故事，恰好完全支持了她的假设。
How dare she?
她怎么敢？
She just had no right.
她只是没有权利。
She just had no right to do what she did.
她只是没有权利做她所做的事。
Whose story is this?
这是谁的故事？
This isn't just her story, this is the falsely accused mother's story.
这不仅仅是她的故事，这是被诬告的母亲的故事。
Other people are part of this story.
其他人也是这个故事的一部分。
I don't think one person gets to just decide, I'm going to only tell the story one way and only let people tell it who believe me uncritically.
我不认为一个人可以做出决定，我只会以一种方式讲述这个故事，并且只让那些不加批判地相信我的人讲述它。
What about the other people in the story?
那么故事中的其他人呢？
I thought I was investigating an accusation against a possibly innocent person.
我以为我正在调查一项针对可能无辜者的指控。
I don't think the claim is that you should have just believed her uncritically.
我不认为这个说法是你应该不加批判地相信她。
I think Nicole says that the way that you went around this research was sort of traumatizing and demoralizing to her.
我认为妮可说你进行这项研究的方式对她来说有点创伤和士气低落。
It made her feel like she didn't have any control over her own records and her own confidential information from her childhood.
这让她感觉自己对自己的记录和童年时期的机密信息没有任何控制权。
Can you put yourself in her shoes at all?
你能设身处地为她着想吗？
Can you understand why she feels like this was a trespass?
你能理解为什么她觉得这是一种侵犯吗？
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
I mean, I think she had her way of telling her story, and she didn't want there to be another way.
我的意思是，我认为她有自己的方式来讲述她的故事，她不希望有其他方式。
And then that might be upsetting for her.
然后这可能会让她感到不安。
It doesn't seem to me like what she was upset by was that there was another way of telling the story.
在我看来，她感到不安的并不是因为有另一种讲述故事的方式。
I think what she found upsetting was that you found out who she was and looked into her life without asking her or without thinking about her.
我认为让她感到不安的是，你在没有询问她或没有想到她的情况下就发现了她是谁并调查了她的生活。
Well, don't you think that that's what journalists do all the time?
好吧，你不认为这就是记者一直在做的事情吗？
Usually, when you write a story about someone, you contact them, or you ask them what they think of the things that you found out.
通常，当你写一个关于某人的故事时，你会联系他们，或者询问他们对你发现的事情的看法。
Actually, I-- you know, there were times when I would have liked to have talked to her.
事实上，我——你知道，有时候我很想和她谈谈。
I think I even wrote up some questions that I might want to ask her.
我想我什至写了一些我可能想问她的问题。
But in the end, we decided that it was just too risky.
但最终，我们认为这样做风险太大。
Risky, how?
有风险，怎么办？
Elizabeth Loftus I just remember there were going to be conditions.
伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯（Elizabeth Loftus）我只记得会有一些条件。
And it just made us nervous.
这让我们感到紧张。
And so we decided we would just publish what we had found out through many, many other sources and leave it at that.
因此，我们决定只发布我们通过许多其他来源发现的内容，然后就这样。
And that's what we did.
这就是我们所做的。
Nicole sued with the help of a lawyer who took her case for free.
妮可在一位免费代理她案件的律师的帮助下提起诉讼。
They went after Loftus and everyone who'd helped write the article for 21 complaints, from defamation to invasion of privacy.
他们对洛夫特斯和所有帮助撰写这篇文章的人提出了 21 项投诉，从诽谤到侵犯隐私。
But even though she was angry with Loftus, Nicole read her article over and over again, until something happened that she wasn't expecting.
但尽管她对洛夫特斯很生气，妮可还是一遍又一遍地读她的文章，直到发生了她意想不到的事情。
She found herself agreeing with Loftus a little.
她发现自己有点同意洛夫特斯的观点。
It planted a seed of doubt.
它埋下了怀疑的种子。
It did, yes.
确实如此，是的。
What was that like to feel like there's this thing that you've been so certain of for so long, that you felt like you had resolution of with Dr. Corwin and seeing those tapes, and then to have it be the subject of doubt again?
感觉你已经这么确定了这么久的一件事，你觉得你已经和科文博士一起解决了，看到了那些录音带，然后又让它成为怀疑的主题，那是什么感觉？
What did that do to you?
那对你做了什么？
It made me feel very small.
这让我感觉自己很渺小。
It made me feel very insignificant, as though my opinion on my own-- the events of my own life were the least important.
这让我感觉自己很渺小，就好像我对自己的看法——我自己生活中的事件是最不重要的。
Nicole started changing her mind back and forth, over and over.
妮可开始一次又一次地改变主意。
Some days, she thought she'd been abused, other days, she thought she'd lied about it.
有时，她认为自己受到了虐待，有时，她认为自己撒了谎。
I have to say, as someone who spent months looking into Loftus's article, it is really hard to work out the responsible thing to think.
我不得不说，作为一个花了几个月时间研究洛夫特斯文章的人，真的很难想出负责任的事情来思考。
When I first read it, I remember thinking, game over.
当我第一次读到它时，我记得我在想，游戏结束了。
There's no way Nicole's mom abused her.
妮可的妈妈不可能虐待她。
But as I looked into each claim Loftus made, what had seemed like a nine on the convincingness scale turned out to be more like a four.
但当我仔细研究洛夫特斯提出的每一个主张时，在可信度上看似九分的说法，结果却更像是四分。
Like Loftus found a report from another psychologist who'd interviewed young Nicole, who said she sounded mechanical and rehearsed when she talked about abuse.
就像洛夫特斯发现另一位心理学家采访过年轻的妮可的报告一样，她说当她谈论虐待时，她听起来很机械，而且是排练过的。
Loftus told me that was the evidence that impressed her most, but I don't know.
洛夫特斯告诉我，这是给她印象最深的证据，但我不知道。
He says, quote, "Nicole has told her story numerous times to a number of different people, and she now sounds mechanical." He could mean Nicole's lying, or he could just mean she's been asked to tell it too many times.
他说，“妮可已经向不同的人无数次讲述过她的故事，但她现在听起来很机械。”他可能意味着妮可在撒谎，或者他可能只是意味着她被要求说太多次了。
And Loftus interviewed Nicole's step-mom, a woman who'd been there for the custody battle.
洛夫特斯采访了妮可的继母，一位参与监护权争夺战的女性。
She told Loftus that she and Nicole's dad had tried to win custody with what she called the sexual angle.
她告诉洛夫特斯，她和妮可的父亲试图用她所谓的性角度来赢得监护权。
Loftus heard that as sinister.
洛夫特斯听了这话，觉得很险恶。
But did she accidentally reveal that she'd had an agenda?
但她是否不小心透露了她有一个议程？
Or did she just use sexual angle as an unfortunate shorthand, like saying, we won custody with the abuse thing?
或者她只是用性角度作为一种不幸的速记，比如说，我们通过虐待事件赢得了监护权？
And take the burns.
并接受烧伤。
Loftus found out that Nicole has a fungal condition that makes skin peel like a healing burn.
洛夫特斯发现妮可患有一种真菌疾病，这种疾病会使皮肤像愈合烧伤一样脱皮。
But there are photos of young Nicole's feet with big blisters.
但有照片显示年轻妮可的脚上长了大水泡。
Could they be explained by a fungus?
它们可以用真菌来解释吗？
It genuinely torments me.
这确实折磨着我。
I still don't know what to think.
我还是不知道该怎么想。
Every piece of evidence seems to pinball back and forth like this.
每一件证据似乎都像这样来回弹球。
I went mad trying to find out the answer.
我疯狂地试图找出答案。
I thought if I read enough court documents, I'd finally find the one thing that no one else had, the thing that would give me certainty either way.
我想，如果我读了足够多的法庭文件，我最终会找到一件其他人没有的东西，无论哪种方式都能给我确定性的东西。
Of course, I didn't.
当然，我没有。
And Nicole didn't either.
妮可也没有。
She sat every day in the suspended animation of not knowing, caught between two really distressing ways of seeing her past.
她每天都处于一种不知道的假死状态中，夹在两种看待自己过去的令人痛苦的方式之间。
In one, her mother abused her.
其中一次，她的母亲虐待她。
In the other, her father manipulated her into lying.
另一方面，她的父亲操纵她撒谎。
And because she lied, her innocent mother was cut out of her life and wrongly accused of abusing her child.
由于她撒了谎，她无辜的母亲被排除在她的生活之外，并被错误地指控虐待她的孩子。
It just created this back and forth that I continue to live with today-- it did happen, it didn't happen.
它只是造成了这种来来回回的情况，我今天仍然忍受着这种情况——它确实发生了，它没有发生。
Some days, I fall somewhere in between.
有时，我会介于两者之间。
How disorienting was it to feel like you had the truth, and then you lost it?
感觉自己拥有真理，然后又失去了它，这是多么令人迷失的感觉？
Disorienting is a good word, but I don't think it fully captures.
迷失方向是个好词，但我认为它并不能完全概括。
It goes to my identity.
这关系到我的身份。
It really goes to the heart of who I am, and who I thought I was, and who I think I am.
它确实触及了我是谁、我以为我是谁以及我认为我是谁的核心。
The most important, the key memory on which I rebuilt and then rebuilt again my identity has now been called into question.
最重要的是，我重建并再次重建我的身份的关键记忆现在受到了质疑。
It's just frustrating multiplied by a million.
这只是令人沮丧乘以一百万。
It's just so, so frustrating.
就是这样，太令人沮丧了。
There is an intangible to be gained from the process of transition from being a victim to becoming a survivor.
从受害者到幸存者的转变过程中可以获得无形的东西。
And in my case, now all of a sudden, am I neither?
就我而言，现在突然之间，我也不是吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Am I either?
我也是吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Nicole's lawsuit against Elizabeth Loftus dragged on and on over five years, all the way out to the California Supreme Court.
妮可对伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯的诉讼拖延了五年多，一直上诉到加州最高法院。
In the end, Nicole lost.
最终，妮可输了。
The First Amendment protected Loftus as a journalist.
第一修正案保护洛夫特斯的记者身份。
And Nicole had to pay legal fees, nearly a quarter of a million dollars, which she could not afford.
而妮可还得支付近25万美元的律师费，这是她无力承担的。
The court garnished her military wages.
法院扣押了她的军饷。
She quit the Navy, lost two houses, and her car was repossessed over all this.
她退出了海军，失去了两栋房子，她的汽车也因此被没收。
She filed for bankruptcy.
她申请破产。
These days, instead of being stuck between believing she was abused and believing that she wasn't, Nicole's found a third option.
如今，妮可不再在相信自己受到虐待和相信自己没有受到虐待之间徘徊，而是找到了第三种选择。
She tries to care a little less.
她试着少关心一点。
She can't dial down the uncertainty, so she tries to dial down the stakes.
她无法降低不确定性，所以她试图降低风险。
I'm never going to know.
我永远不会知道。
I'm never going to know.
我永远不会知道。
And even after all these years, I think I still thought that at some point I would come to a solid decision, yes or no. And really, really, I'm never going to know.
即使过了这么多年，我想我仍然认为在某个时候我会做出一个坚定的决定，是或不是。真的，真的，我永远不会知道。
And that just has to be OK.
那一定是没问题的。
There's so much that Nicole can't be certain of, so she hammered out a certainty about herself.
妮可不确定的事情太多了，所以她对自己有了确定性。
She found a way forward.
她找到了前进的方向。
She became a pilot.
她成为了一名飞行员。
She got two master's degrees and a PhD in psychology.
她获得了两个心理学硕士学位和一个博士学位。
She's now a therapist, like she's wanted since she was six.
她现在是一名治疗师，就像她从六岁起就一直需要的那样。
And she's never cut her mom out of her life.
她从未将妈妈从她的生活中剔除。
Nicole's mom has always said that she never abused Nicole.
妮可的妈妈一直说她从未虐待过妮可。
She maintains that today.
她今天仍然坚持这一点。
And she says she didn't tell Nicole to lie to Child Protective Services.
她说她没有告诉妮可向儿童保护服务机构撒谎。
Her mom's in her 70s.
她妈妈70多岁了。
They live in the same state.
他们生活在同一个州。
It's not an easy relationship.
这不是一种容易的关系。
There's a possibility that I ruined my biological mother's life.
我有可能毁了我亲生母亲的生活。
There's a tremendous amount of guilt associated with that.
与此相关的是巨大的内疚感。
We're close for-- well, we're relatively close for a period of time, and then things sort of fall apart again, just as they have.
我们已经很接近了——好吧，我们在一段时间内相对接近，然后事情又有点崩溃了，就像以前那样。
Five months ago.
五个月前。
Eleanor Gordon-Smith And what was that like?
埃莉诺·戈登-史密斯 那是什么样的？
It's still awkward.
还是很尴尬。
It's still very pressured, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，压力仍然很大。
She still wants very much for me to believe that she never did anything to me, and I still don't know.
她仍然非常想让我相信她从未对我做过任何事，而我仍然不知道。
So it's really, really hard to move past that major sort of elephant in the room.
所以，要超越房间里的那头大象，真的非常非常困难。
Do you ever talk about it?
你有谈论过它吗？
Nicole Kleumper No.
妮可·克伦珀 编号
Is she able to accept that you might just not know?
她能接受你可能不知道吗？
No, I think she really wants me to believe that she didn't.
不，我想她真的想让我相信她没有。
Do you think you could?
你觉得你可以吗？
Do you think there's anything that could change your mind?
你认为有什么事情可以改变你的想法吗？
No. The waters are so muddy now.
不，现在水太浑了。
There's no-- I'll never know one way or the other.
不——我永远不会知道其中一种方式。
Nicole is no more certain about what happened today than she was when she was 16.
妮可对今天发生的事情并不比她 16 岁时更确定。
She never flipped a coin and picked something to believe, but she landed on a certainty about what to do, that doesn't rest on what to believe.
她从来没有通过掷硬币来选择相信什么，但她确定了该做什么，这并不取决于该相信什么。
It doesn't matter what the evidence says, she wants her mom.
不管证据如何，她想要她的妈妈。
Eleanor Gordon-Smith.
埃莉诺·戈登-史密斯。
A version of this story is in her new book, Stop Being Reasonable: How We Really Change Our Minds.
这个故事的一个版本出现在她的新书《停止理性：我们如何真正改变我们的想法》中。
Our program was produced today by Neil Drumming and Emanuele Berry.
今天我们的节目由尼尔·鼓明和埃马努埃莱·贝里制作。
The people who put our show together includes Whitney Dangerfield, Aviva DeKornfeld, Hillary Elkins, Damien Graef, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
制作我们节目的人员包括 Whitney Dangerfield、Aviva DeKornfeld、Hillary Elkins、Damien Graef、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的总编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks today to John and Joe Teche, a.k.a.
今天特别感谢 John 和 Joe Teche，又名：
The Jetsyns, Amy Burtain, Michelle Johnson, and Keith Woods.
杰森一家、艾米·伯顿、米歇尔·约翰逊和基思·伍兹。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our show's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们节目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He is so excited about the superhero he created, this guy who gets bit by a radioactive seagull, patrols the beaches, saving lives.
他对自己创造的超级英雄感到非常兴奋，这个被放射性海鸥咬伤的人在海滩巡逻，拯救生命。
Torey swears it's super popular.
托里发誓它非常受欢迎。
The Gulman is getting huge.
古尔曼变得越来越大。
The Gulman is getting huge.
古尔曼变得越来越大。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - BRENDA RUSSELL, "A LITTLE BIT OF LOVE"]
[音乐 - 布伦达·罗素，《一点点爱》]
(SINGING) A little bit of love can go a long, long way.
（唱歌）一点点的爱可以走很长很长的路。
So what you're thinking of.
那么你在想什么。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。