674: Get a Spine! - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #674 | May 10, 2019 674: Get a Spine!
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 674 集 | 2019 年 5 月 10 日 674：获得脊柱！
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK, so it's a big crowded singles bar.
Prologue Ira Glass 好吧，这是一个拥挤的单身酒吧。
One regular described it as the place you go at the end of the night when they play old hip hop and R&B that everybody knows the words to.
一位常客将这里形容为晚上结束时您会去的地方，那里会播放大家都知道的老嘻哈和 R&B 音乐。
People are grinding up on each other like it's a high school dance, like it is just shameless and fun and a little sloppy.
人们互相争吵，就像这是一场高中舞会，就像它只是无耻、有趣，而且有点草率。
And it's a meat market.
这是一个肉类市场。
I like it because it's shameless.
我喜欢它，因为它无耻。
Someone will always hit on you.
总会有人来攻击你。
That's like, why I come here.
这就是为什么我来这里。
So, lots of pick ups, lots of ghosting afterwards.
所以，有很多拾取，之后有很多重影。
It's early evening and that's what I'm here to look for-- serial ghosters, people who kiss and disappear, which are not hard to find at all.
现在是傍晚，这就是我来这里寻找的东西——连环鬼魂，接吻后消失的人，这些并不难找到。
And yes, some of them definitely agreed, ghosting is bad.
是的，他们中的一些人肯定同意，重影是不好的。
They felt guilty, like this woman.
他们像这个女人一样感到内疚。
She ghosted a guy after seeing him for two months.
她在见到一个男人两个月后就对他产生了幻觉。
Great guy, she said.
很棒的人，她说。
Hit it off immediately.
立即一拍即合。
Saw each other a couple nights a week.
每周有几个晚上见面。
And then I went to a wedding, met another guy that I was very into.
然后我去参加了一场婚礼，遇到了另一个我很喜欢的人。
And I just wasn't responding as quickly or as often and we weren't making plans.
我只是没有那么快或那么频繁地做出回应，而且我们也没有制定计划。
And he said, I wonder if I'll ever see you again.
他说，我不知道我是否还能再见到你。
And that-- I didn't respond to that.
我没有对此做出回应。
I feel really bad about it.
我对此感到非常难过。
I feel really, really bad about it still.
我仍然感觉非常非常糟糕。
But he's a great guy, he did nothing wrong.
但他是个好人，他没有做错任何事。
A great guy and I feel bad for ghosting him.
一个很棒的人，我为他的鬼魂感到难过。
There are so many reasons to ghost.
鬼魂的理由有很多。
This guy for instance, has a boyfriend.
例如，这个家伙有男朋友。
He's there at his table.
他就在他的桌子旁。
They're in an open relationship.
他们处于开放关系。
And basically, he got drinks with another guy, one he met on Grindr.
基本上，他和另一个人喝了一杯，这个人是他在 Grindr 上认识的。
And it was fun.
这很有趣。
It was kind of romantic.
这有点浪漫。
I should have disclosed that I have a boyfriend, but I didn't.
我应该透露我有男朋友，但我没有。
I think I perceived him kind of to be more monogamous.
我想我认为他更加一夫一妻制。
There was kind of a point where he was talking about, like, gay guys who sleep around too much.
有一次，他谈到了一些同性恋者，他们睡得太多了。
So he said nothing about his boyfriend and the open relationship.
所以他对他的男朋友和开放关系只字不提。
They kissed when they say goodbye.
他们告别时接吻了。
And, knowing he messed up, he ghosted the guy-- his first ghost, he says.
而且，他知道自己搞砸了，所以他给这个人做了鬼魂——他说，这是他的第一个鬼魂。
So this, for me, is weird.
所以这对我来说很奇怪。
And it is like a vortex of feelings, absolutely.
这绝对就像感情的漩涡。
It is like, why did I do that?
就像，我为什么要这么做？
I feel guilty about it.
我对此感到内疚。
You're not--
你不是——
Some of the ghosting I heard about, it made me wonder about the correct usage of the word ghosting.
我听说过的一些重影，让我想知道重影这个词的正确用法。
Like, OK, what if you've dated somebody for years but it's on and off, and they're your drug dealer.
就像，好吧，如果你已经和某人约会多年，但时断时续，而他们是你的毒贩，该怎么办？
And you're in college.
而且你已经上大学了。
And then he was just like, listen, I feel like you're only in it for the weed.
然后他就说，听着，我觉得你只是为了大麻。
And I was like, no!
我当时想，不！
Not at all.
一点也不。
And then he stopped getting me weed and--
然后他就不再给我买大麻了——
As a test to you, to see if you really cared about him?
以此来考验你，看看你是否真的在乎他？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass And were you were only in it for the weed?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你只是为了大麻吗？
(silence) Ira Glass OK, that pause gives you the whole answer, right?
（沉默）艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）好吧，这个停顿给了你完整的答案，对吧？
The answer is yes.
答案是肯定的。
And she cut him off.
然后她打断了他。
Why not just tell him?
为什么不直接告诉他呢？
Why not just be direct?
为什么不直接一点呢？
Because I was afraid that if I was honest, like, then I wouldn't be able to get weed at all.
因为我担心如果我诚实的话，我根本就买不到大麻。
I sound like I have a problem here.
听起来我这里有问题。
But--
但是——
Are you high right now?
你现在高吗？
Woman 3 No, I'm not.
女人3 不，我不是。
I'm not, I promise.
我不是，我保证。
That was just a joke.
那只是个玩笑。
Woman 3 OK.
女人3 好的。
No, I'm not.
不，我不是。
I promise I'm not.
我保证我不是。
She feels bad about ghosting him, but you know what?
她为他的鬼魂感到难过，但你知道吗？
Ghost a few more people, apparently you can get over that.
再幽灵几个人，显然你可以克服这个问题。
This woman, Carrie, was at a table with friends celebrating somebody's birthday.
这个女人，嘉莉，正和朋友们坐在一起庆祝某人的生日。
She told me that she's ghosted five or six people.
她告诉我她幽灵化了五六个人。
Like anything else, you get used to it as you watch them flailing in your texts like fish thrashing around on the deck of the boat, gasping, desperate.
就像其他事情一样，当你看着他们在你的短信中挣扎时，你就会习惯它，就像鱼在船的甲板上挣扎一样，喘着气，绝望。
A couple of them would just text me like every couple of days with like a question mark.
他们中的一些人每隔几天就会给我发短信，并带有问号。
But then they just realized what was happening.
但随后他们才意识到发生了什么。
And then one of them tried to reach out to me on LinkedIn.
然后其中一位尝试在 LinkedIn 上与我联系。
OK, not what LinkedIn is for.
好吧，这不是 LinkedIn 的用途。
But her friends around the table are all like, oh yeah, that's happened to lots of people.
但她桌边的朋友们都说，哦，是的，很多人都遇到过这种情况。
Some men apparently think that LinkedIn is the way in.
一些男性显然认为 LinkedIn 是进入的途径。
She felt like, explaining to these guys exactly why she did not want to see them-- people had done that to her and it felt terrible.
她觉得，向这些人解释为什么她不想见他们——人们对她做了那样的事，感觉很糟糕。
It just seemed less cruel to ghost.
只是对鬼魂来说似乎不那么残酷。
A real estate guy named Jason had a slightly different way of looking at this.
一位名叫杰森（Jason）的房地产人士对此的看法略有不同。
He sees ghosting as tactical, like he only ghosts rare, special circumstances when it is called for.
他认为重影是一种战术，就像他只在需要时才重影罕见的特殊情况一样。
Case example, very recently a woman on the subway asked him the title of a book that he was reading.
举个例子，最近在地铁上，一位女士问他正在读的一本书的书名。
They got to talking.
他们开始说话了。
She was really attractive.
她真的很有魅力。
She thought I was attractive.
她认为我很有魅力。
And then before she gets off the train she goes, we should exchange numbers.
然后在她下车之前，我们应该交换电话号码。
And I go, all right, yeah, let's exchange numbers.
我说，好吧，我们交换号码吧。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
I mean, yeah, I'll take you out sometime.
我的意思是，是的，我有时会带你出去。
Yes.
是的。
It's not strange.
这并不奇怪。
It happens to me all the time.
这种事经常发生在我身上。
I'll say for the radio audience, you're very good looking.
我会对广播听众说，你长得非常好看。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Ira Glass Anyway, they go for drinks.
艾拉·格拉斯 不管怎样，他们去喝酒了。
At first it's all normal.
起初一切都很正常。
And then--
然后——
This was the first red flag.
这是第一个危险信号。
She said the second I got off the train, I called my sister and told her about you.
她说我一下车就给我姐姐打电话，告诉她你的事。
I was like, are you really close with your sister?
我就想，你和你姐姐真的很亲近吗？
And she's like, yeah, we talk every day.
她说，是的，我们每天都会说话。
And I'm like, oh, OK, that's kind of cool.
我想，哦，好吧，这很酷。
Then she was like, yeah, then I told my brother about you.
然后她说，是的，然后我告诉了我哥哥你的事。
And I go, what?
我走了，什么？
So, this is the turning point of the drinks.
所以，这是饮料的转折点。
This is where I stopped ordering drinks, because we were two drinks in and she starts telling me about her pet rats.
这是我停止点饮料的地方，因为我们喝了两杯，她开始告诉我她的宠物老鼠的事。
OK?
好的？
She has three pet rats that have cages, but they sleep in her bed and they chew through her sheets once a week.
她养了三只带笼子的宠物老鼠，但它们睡在她的床上，每周咀嚼一次她的床单。
So she has to buy new sheets once a week.
所以她必须每周购买一次新床单。
And I go, wait, are-- what are you?
我走了，等等，你是谁？
I'm sorry, rats?
对不起，老鼠们？
She's like, yeah, they're so cute but they chew through my sheets.
她说，是的，它们很可爱，但它们会咬破我的床单。
And I go, OK.
我就走了，好吧。
She goes to the bathroom and he asks for the check while she's gone, walks her to the bus.
她去洗手间，他趁她离开时索要支票，送她去公交车。
Because she was taking the bus uptown even though the train was a block away, another red flag.
因为她要坐公交车到住宅区，尽管火车离她只有一个街区，这是另一个危险信号。
Waited for the bus with her, never spoke to her again.
陪她等公车，再也没有和她说过话。
She sent text messages, she's called, I have never responded again.
她发短信，给她打电话，我再也没有回复过。
There is no way I am doing anything with the rat lady, not happening.
我不可能对老鼠女士做任何事，不会发生。
If somebody seems too out there, he says, if they seem like they are beyond reasoning with, he ghosts.
他说，如果有人看起来太离谱，如果他们看起来无法与人推理，他就会消失。
He does not see this as cowardice.
他并不认为这是懦弱。
He sees it as standing up for himself.
他认为这是为自己辩护。
These unrepentant ghosters, sometimes talking to them felt like talking to hardened commandos, you know?
这些顽固不化的幽灵，有时与他们交谈就像与顽强的突击队员交谈，你知道吗？
Fresh off some battlefield who have learned that feelings are not always helpful.
刚从战场上出来的人就知道感情并不总是有帮助的。
I would describe my dating life as a series of infrequent one night stands.
我会把我的约会生活描述为一系列罕见的一夜情。
This woman said that after one Tinder date, you go home with somebody, you don't owe them anything.
这位女士说，在一次 Tinder 约会后，你就和某人一起回家，你不欠他们任何东西。
She ghosts unapologetically.
她毫无歉意地鬼魂似的。
And if you're going to dwell on this date that happened and be like, well, why didn't she text me back?
如果你想回忆一下发生的这次约会，然后想，好吧，她为什么不给我回短信？
Why didn't I get a reason?
为什么我没有找到理由？
Why did I do wrong?
为什么我做错了？
You're just overthinking it.
你只是想多了。
I don't want to get into answering all their questions and making them feel better about themselves or giving them feedback, you know?
我不想回答他们所有的问题，让他们自我感觉更好或给他们反馈，你知道吗？
Do you feel like you're being a coward or you're being practical?
你觉得自己是一个懦夫还是一个务实的人？
Can both be an answer?
两者都可以作为答案吗？
I would say both.
我会说两者。
I love that she says that.
我喜欢她这么说。
I find her to be completely convincing in every way, and also a coward.
我发现她在各方面都完全令人信服，但同时也是个胆小鬼。
She wants to avoid confrontation.
她想避免对抗。
We all tell ourselves all kinds of things to avoid confrontation, and we can be very convincing-- you know, with ourselves.
我们都会告诉自己各种各样的事情来避免对抗，而且我们可以非常有说服力——你知道，对自己来说。
It's so much easier to never say anything, to never dig in our heels, to never say the truth.
不说任何话、不固执己见、不说实话要容易得多。
That's why it's so popular.
这就是它如此受欢迎的原因。
Today in our show, we have stories of people, for a change, summoning the courage, getting it together, the spineless getting a spine.
今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了人们的故事，为了改变，鼓起勇气，团结起来，让没有骨气的人变得有骨气。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, Finally.
第一幕，最后。
So we start dealing with somebody getting up the nerve to do something that really, it would be nice to see more often.
因此，我们开始与某人打交道，勇敢地去做一些事情，如果能经常见到的话，那就太好了。
He makes an apology.
他道歉了。
And not just any apology.
而且不仅仅是道歉。
Nancy Updike has a story about the anatomy of this one particular and unusual instance of "I'm sorry." Quick warning if you're listening to our podcast, we've unbeeped a few curse words here in the internet version of today's show.
南希·厄普代克（Nancy Updike）有一个故事，讲述了这个特殊且不寻常的“对不起”实例的剖析。如果您正在收听我们的播客，请快速警告，我们在今天节目的网络版本中取消了一些脏话。
If you want a beeped version, it is at our website.
如果您想要蜂鸣版本，请访问我们的网站。
Here's Nancy.
这是南希。
I read about this apology at the time it happened, but I never listened to it until recently.
我当时就读到了这篇道歉信，但直到最近我才听到。
I listened in headphones on the subway and it was the auditory equivalent of seeing a snow leopard stroll through the subway car.
我在地铁上用耳机听，听觉上相当于看到一只雪豹在地铁车厢里漫步。
This apology was about sexual harassment-- another one about sexual harassment-- but it was startling because it was not curt or vague.
这份道歉是关于性骚扰的——另一份关于性骚扰的道歉——但它令人震惊，因为它并不生硬或含糊。
It was not a lawyered up mess of non-contrition in the passive voice.
这并不是律师编造的被动语态不悔罪的混乱局面。
It was a true reckoning, publicly and fully accepted by the person who'd been wronged.
这是一个真实的清算，被受冤屈的人公开并完全接受。
She forgave him.
她原谅了他。
That almost never happens-- a public apology that lands.
这种情况几乎从未发生过——公开道歉。
And everything that went into this apology, which is a lot, is an answer, one answer, to a question that keeps wafting up from stories about sexual harassment in the last couple of years.
这次道歉中包含的所有内容（内容很多）都是对过去几年性骚扰故事中不断出现的一个问题的一个答案。
The question of, what are men supposed to do?
问题是，男人应该做什么？
What are they supposed to say?
他们应该说什么？
I'm not talking about situations where a man denies anything happened.
我不是在谈论一个人否认发生过任何事情的情况。
I'm talking about the ones where they've agreed that something did happen, something bad.
我说的是那些他们一致认为确实发生了一些事情、一些糟糕的事情的人。
But, what do they have to say to be forgiven, to move on?
但是，他们要说什么才能得到原谅，才能继续前进呢？
Let's start at the end, with the apology.
让我们从最后的道歉开始吧。
Then we'll hear from the people involved.
然后我们会听取相关人员的意见。
The person who's apologizing is a writer, also actor and many other things, named Dan Harmon.
道歉的人是一位作家、演员和许多其他人，名叫丹·哈蒙(Dan Harmon)。
He co-created the TV show Rick and Morty, and also an NBC comedy called Community about a group of adults going to community college.
他与他人共同创作了电视节目《瑞克和莫蒂》，以及 NBC 喜剧《社区》，讲述一群成年人上社区大学的故事。
Dan was the creator and showrunner of Community.
丹是《社区》的创作者和剧集主管。
He had a bunch of writers who worked with him on the show but he was the boss, essentially.
他有一群编剧在节目中与他合作，但本质上他是老板。
The thing he's apologizing for happened there.
他道歉的事情就发生在那里。
Dan delivered his apology last year, in 2018, on his podcast, Harmontown.
丹于去年（2018 年）在他的播客 Harmontown 上发表了道歉。
I'm going to play most of it for you-- seven and a half minutes of it-- which is short if you're getting a foot massage but long for a public apology.
我会为你播放其中的大部分内容——七分半钟——如果你要做足部按摩，那么这个时间就很短，但对于公开道歉来说却很长。
It-- in 2000 whatever whatever, I can't remember, 2009, 2006, 2000 something something, I had the privilege of running a network sitcom.
2000 年，无论什么时候，我记不清了，2009 年、2006 年、2000 年什么时候，我有幸经营一部网络情景喜剧。
And I-- I was attracted to a employee.
我被一名员工所吸引。
I really want to be careful about that language.
我真的想小心这种语言。
I think a huge part of the problem is a culture of feeling things that you think are unique and significant because they're happening to you, and saying things like, I had feelings for, and I-- I fell for, and all these things.
我认为问题的很大一部分是一种文化，这种文化让你感觉那些你认为独特且重要的事情，因为它们发生在你身上，并说诸如“我对之有感觉，我……我爱上了”之类的事情。
I mean, the most clinical way I can put it in fessing up to my crimes is that I was attracted to a writer that I had power over because I was a showrunner.
我的意思是，我承认自己罪行的最冷静的方式是，我被一位我有权控制的作家所吸引，因为我是一名剧集主管。
And I knew enough to know that these feelings were bad news.
我很清楚这些感觉是坏消息。
And so I did the cowardly, easiest, laziest thing you could do with feelings like that and I didn't deal with them.
因此，面对这样的感觉，我做了最懦弱、最简单、最懒惰的事情，但我没有处理它们。
And in not dealing with them I made everybody else deal with them, especially her.
由于不与他们打交道，我让其他人也与他们打交道，尤其是她。
Flirty, creepy, everything other than overt enough to constitute betraying your live-in girlfriend to whom you're going home every night, who is actually smart enough and respectful enough to ask you, do you have feelings for that young writer that you're talking about, that you're paying all this attention to?
轻浮、令人毛骨悚然，除了公开的一切，都不足以构成背叛你每晚回家的同居女友，她实际上足够聪明、足够尊重，会问你，你对你正在谈论的、你如此关注的那个年轻作家有感情吗？
And saying to her, no, because the trick is if you lie to yourself you can lie to everybody.
对她说，不，因为诀窍是，如果你对自己撒谎，你就可以对所有人撒谎。
It's really easy.
这真的很容易。
And so that's what I continued to do, telling myself and anybody that threatened to confront me with it that if you thought what I was doing was creepy or flirty or unprofessional then it's because you were the sexist.
所以这就是我继续做的事情，告诉自己和任何威胁要与我对质的人，如果你认为我所做的事情令人毛骨悚然、轻浮或不专业，那是因为你是性别歧视者。
You were jealous.
你嫉妒了。
I was supporting this person.
我是支持这个人的。
I'm a mentor, I'm a feminist.
我是一名导师，我是一名女权主义者。
It's your problem, not mine.
这是你的问题，不是我的。
You're the one that actually is seeing things through that lens.
你才是真正通过这个镜头看待事物的人。
And so I let myself keep doing it.
所以我让自己继续这样做。
And it's not as if this person didn't repeatedly communicate to me the idea that what I was doing was divesting her of a recourse to integrity.
这个人并不是没有反复向我传达这样的想法：我所做的事情剥夺了她对正直的依赖。
Integrity meaning integrity is a writer, learning her craft.
正直意味着正直是一个作家，学习她的手艺。
This writer told him, when you focus on me, praise me so much, pick my jokes-- if you were doing it for the wrong reasons, even a little bit, that would undermine me devastatingly.
这位作家告诉他，当你如此关注我、如此赞扬我、挑选我的笑话时——如果你这样做的原因是错误的，哪怕是一点点，都会对我造成毁灭性的打击。
How will I know if I'm truly doing my job well?
我如何知道我是否真正做好了我的工作？
I just didn't hear it.
我只是没听到。
And it's because it didn't profit me to hear it.
这是因为听它对我没有好处。
And this was, after all, happening to me, right?
毕竟，这发生在我身上，对吧？
And so after a season of playing it that way I broke up with my girlfriend, who I had lied to the whole time while lying to myself.
因此，在这样玩了一个赛季之后，我和女朋友分手了，我一直在欺骗自己，同时也欺骗了她。
I broke up with my girlfriend, then I went right, you know, full steam into creepin' on my employee.
我和我的女朋友分手了，然后我就开始，你知道，全力以赴地偷袭我的员工。
And then after that season, you know, I got overt about my feelings after it was wrapped because then-- and said, oh, I love you.
在那一季之后，你知道，我在电影结束后公开表达了自己的感受，因为那时——我说，哦，我爱你。
And she said the same thing she'd been saying the entire time, in one language or another.
她用一种或另一种语言说了她一直在说的同样的话。
Please, don't you understand that focusing on me like this, liking me like this, preferring me like this, I can't say no to it.
拜托，你难道不明白吗，这样关注我，这样喜欢我，这样偏爱我，我是无法拒绝的。
And when you do it, it makes me unable to know whether I'm good at my job.
当你这样做的时候，它会让我无法知道我是否擅长我的工作。
And because I finally got to the point where I said to her, oh, this is-- you know, I love you, because that's what I thought it was when you target somebody for two years.
因为我终于到了对她说的地步，哦，这是——你知道，我爱你，因为这就是我认为当你瞄准某人两年时的情况。
And it was therefore rejected that way.
因此就这样被拒绝了。
I was humiliated.
我被羞辱了。
And so I continued to do the cowardly thing, and continued to do the selfish thing.
于是我继续做懦弱的事，继续做自私的事。
Now I wanted to teach her a lesson.
现在我想给她一个教训。
I wanted to show her that if she didn't like being liked in that way, then oh, boy, she should get over herself.
我想让她知道，如果她不喜欢以这种方式被人喜欢，那么哦，天哪，她应该克服自己。
After all, if you're just going to be a writer then this is how just writers get treated.
毕竟，如果你只是想成为一名作家，那么这就是作家受到的待遇。
Did you get what he's saying here?
你明白他在这里说的话吗？
She said, I don't want to date you.
她说，我不想和你约会。
His response was, fine.
他的回答是，很好。
You don't like my praise and attention?
你不喜欢我的赞美和关注吗？
All right, then, look out.
好吧，那就小心点吧。
And that was probably the darkest of it all because I drank, I took pills, I crushed on her and resented her for not reciprocating it.
这可能是这一切中最黑暗的，因为我喝酒，我吃药，我迷恋她，并怨恨她没有回报。
And the entire time I was the one writing her paychecks and in control of whether she stayed or went, and whether she felt good about herself or not, and said horrible things.
整个过程中，我一直在给她写工资，控制着她是留下还是走，以及她是否自我感觉良好，并说了一些可怕的话。
Just treated her cruelly, pointedly.
只是残酷地、尖锐地对待她。
Things that I would never, ever, ever have done if she had been male and if I had never had those feelings for her.
如果她是男性并且我从来没有对她产生过这些感觉，我永远不会做这些事情。
And I lied to myself the entire time about it and I lost my job.
我一直在对自己撒谎，结果我丢了工作。
I feel the need to say, he didn't lose his job because of this woman.
我觉得有必要说，他并没有因为这个女人而失去工作。
She didn't report him to his bosses.
她没有向他的老板举报他。
He's describing a more general crisis in his life.
他正在描述他生活中更普遍的危机。
I ruined my show.
我毁了我的表演。
I betrayed the audience.
我背叛了观众。
I destroyed everything.
我摧毁了一切。
And I damaged her internal compass.
我损坏了她的内部指南针。
And I moved on.
我继续前进。
And I never did it before and I will never do it again.
我以前从未这样做过，也永远不会再这样做。
But I certainly wouldn't have been able to do it if I had any respect for women.
但如果我对女性有一点尊重的话，我肯定无法做到这一点。
On a fundamental level, I was thinking about them as different creatures.
从根本上讲，我将它们视为不同的生物。
I was thinking about the ones that I liked as having some special role in my life.
我在想那些我喜欢的人在我的生活中扮演着特殊的角色。
And I did it all by not thinking about it.
而这一切都是我不假思索地完成的。
So I just want to say, in addition to obviously being sorry, but that's really not the important thing, I want to say I did it by not thinking about it.
所以我只想说，除了明显的抱歉之外，但这真的不是重要的事情，我想说我是没有考虑过才这么做的。
And I got away with it by not thinking about it.
我没有去想它，就逃脱了惩罚。
And if she hadn't mentioned something on Twitter, I would have continued to not have to think about it, although I did walk around with my stomach in knots about it.
如果她没有在推特上提到一些事情，我就不用再去想它了，尽管我确实为此感到心烦意乱。
But I wouldn't have had to talk about it.
但我不必谈论它。
The person Dan Harmon was talking about is another writer, Megan Ganz.
丹·哈蒙所说的人是另一位作家梅根·甘茨。
She's now an executive producer on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
她现在是《费城永远阳光明媚》的执行制片人。
When she heard Dan's apology last year, she was in her car on the 101 and 170 in Los Angeles.
去年，当她听到丹的道歉时，她正坐在洛杉矶 101 和 170 路的车里。
Yeah, I was driving to work which, about halfway through listening to it, I thought, well, this is a mistake.
是的，我开车去上班，大约听了一半，我想，好吧，这是一个错误。
I probably should have saved this till I got home tonight.
我可能应该把这个保存到今晚回家。
Honestly, I started listening to it expecting to be angry.
老实说，我开始听它时以为会生气。
So that was also kind of a roller coaster, going from angry to feeling this immense relief at the end of it.
所以这也有点像坐过山车，从愤怒到最后感到巨大的解脱。
And I listened to it, I think, again right away, sitting in my car in the parking lot of my work.
我想，我坐在工作停车场的车里，立刻又听了一遍。
When she heard Dan's apology, they hadn't talked face to face in six years.
当她听到丹的道歉时，他们已经六年没有面对面交谈了。
It was cathartic in a way that I could have never imagined.
这是一种我从未想象过的宣泄方式。
It was like receiving the antidote to a poison I'd been self inflicting.
这就像我收到了解药，解开了我自己造成的毒药。
It's the only way I can describe it.
这是我能描述它的唯一方式。
Megan thanked Dan via text and also forgave him publicly on Twitter, saying quote, "please listen to it.
梅根通过短信向丹表示感谢，并在推特上公开原谅了他，并说道：“请听听。
It is a master class in how to apologize.
这是一门如何道歉的大师班。
I only listened because I expected an apology, but what I didn't expect was the relief I'd feel hearing him say these things actually happened.
我听他讲话只是因为我期待着他的道歉，但我没想到的是，当我听到他说这些事情确实发生过时，我会感到如释重负。
Ironic that the only person who could give me that comfort is the one person I'd never ask," end quote.
具有讽刺意味的是，唯一能给我这种安慰的人是我永远不会问的人，”引用结束语。
Whatever you think of this apology, the content of it, the result was not the way these stories have usually ended.
无论你如何看待这次道歉、其内容，结果都不是这些故事通常的结局。
Both parts are unusual-- the apology and the acceptance of it.
道歉和接受这两个部分都很不寻常。
It's so unusual, I think it's worth looking at how exactly that moment in the car, Megan listening, feeling relieved, how did that come to be?
这太不寻常了，我认为值得看看在车里的那一刻，梅根听着，感到如释重负，这是怎么发生的？
How did they get there, to forgiveness?
他们是如何获得宽恕的？
Could their path be a map for anyone else?
他们的道路可以成为其他人的地图吗？
I don't know, maybe.
我不知道，也许吧。
A quick outline of their history.
他们的历史的快速概述。
Dan was Megan's boss, the creator of a TV show that was pretty much all consuming for the writers who worked on it.
丹是梅根的老板，他是一部电视节目的创作者，这部电视节目几乎让所有编剧都投入了精力。
It was Megan's first job writing for a sitcom.
这是梅根的第一份工作，为情景喜剧写作。
She was among the least experienced, least powerful people in the room.
她是房间里经验最浅、权力最弱的人之一。
But Dan was impressed with Megan from her first script and he favored her flagrantly, insisting it was only about her work.
但丹对梅根的第一个剧本印象深刻，他公然偏爱她，坚称这只是关于她的工作。
When he came clean about his feelings and she said she didn't feel that way, he turned on her, started savaging her work, berating her in front of the other writers.
当他坦白自己的感受并且她说她没有那种感觉时，他开始攻击她，开始猛烈抨击她的作品，在其他作家面前斥责她。
This all went on for about two years, start to finish.
这一切从开始到结束持续了大约两年。
The apology that gave her relief-- it did not spring forth all at once.
让她松了口气的道歉——并不是一下子就冒出来的。
It was actually built out of earlier, not successful apologies.
它实际上是根据之前不成功的道歉而建立的。
The very first one was in 2012, after Dan was fired from Community.
第一次是在 2012 年，Dan 被 Community 解雇后。
Dan texted Megan saying basically, sorry for being a bad boss-- very general, short.
丹给梅根发短信，基本上说，抱歉，我是个坏老板——非常笼统，简短。
Megan felt nothing.
梅根什么感觉也没有。
Another early attempt was on his podcast, 12 weeks before the apology that stuck.
另一次早期的尝试是在他的播客上，那是在道歉生效前 12 周。
It was more in the nature of an admission than an apology.
这更像是承认而不是道歉。
I have abused my power dynamic at work.
我在工作中滥用了权力。
I didn't know I was doing it when I did it.
当我这样做的时候我并不知道我在做这件事。
He drops this excuse in the later apology.
他在后来的道歉中放弃了这个借口。
I didn't-- I never took notice that-- I never thought to myself, until after the whole thing happened and I looked back and I was like, why was that such a relative disaster?
我没有——我从来没有注意到这一点——我从来没有对自己想过，直到整个事情发生之后我回头看，我想，为什么那是一场相对灾难？
Oh, because if you have a crush on someone that works for you, you are not-- it's not the same as having a crush on someone at a library or a bar that doesn't work for you, you fucking idiot.
哦，因为如果你迷恋一个为你工作的人，你就不是——这和在图书馆或酒吧迷恋一个不适合你的人不一样，你这个白痴。
Megan didn't hear this at the time.
梅根当时没有听到这句话。
If the possible beginnings of an apology fall in a podcast and no one's there to hear it-- the pace really started picking up on Twitter at the end of 2017 in the wake of Harvey Weinstein, Larry Nassar, Louis CK, on and on.
如果道歉可能是在播客中开始的，但没有人在场听到的话，那么在 2017 年底哈维·韦恩斯坦 (Harvey Weinstein)、拉里·纳萨尔 (Larry Nassar)、路易斯·CK (Louis CK) 等人之后，推特上的道歉步伐才真正开始加快。
Dan tweeted, quote, "This was truly the year of the asshole, myself included.
丹在推特上写道：“这确实是混蛋的一年，包括我自己。
We don't have to make 2018 the year of the mensch, but I hope it can be the year of the not as much of an asshole.
我们不必让 2018 年成为好人之年，但我希望它能成为不那么混蛋的一年。
#realisticgoals."
#现实的目标。”
Megan read that one and what drove her to respond was the reaction she saw-- people praising him for admitting to big bad behavior in the past and declaring he was trying to be better.
梅根读到了这篇文章，促使她做出回应的是她所看到的反应——人们称赞他承认过去的严重不良行为，并宣称他正在努力做得更好。
She wrote back on Twitter.
她在推特上回复了。
I responded to him by saying, care to be more specific?
我回复他说，愿意说得更具体吗？
Redemption follows allocution.
救赎跟随分配。
What does allocution mean?
分配是什么意思？
I had to look it up.
我必须查一下。
Well, it's a term I took from Law and Order, because I'm a big Law and Order fan.
嗯，这是我从《法律与秩序》中借用的一个术语，因为我是《法律与秩序》的忠实粉丝。
Allocuting to a crime is basically what happens when you take a plea deal and the judge says that you have to, as part of the deal, say what you did.
归咎于犯罪基本上是当你达成认罪协议时发生的事情，法官说，作为协议的一部分，你必须说出你所做的事情。
And if your allocution is found to be lacking in any way they can pull your plea bargain back, basically.
如果发现你的陈述有任何缺陷，他们基本上可以撤回你的辩诉交易。
That's how I understand it.
我就是这么理解的。
So I guess that was a weird mix of my Law and Order knowledge and my Catholicism, Catholic school, coming together because I thought, well, the way that it always worked in confession was, you had to say what you did wrong first before they would absolve you.
所以我想这是我的法律和秩序知识和我的天主教、天主教学校的奇怪结合，因为我认为，嗯，在忏悔中它总是起作用的方式是，你必须先说你做错了什么，然后他们才会赦免你。
Dan tweeted back, saying quote, "I've talked on my podcast about the lines I crossed," end quote.
丹在推特上回复道，“我在播客上谈到了我跨越的界限，”引用结束。
And also, quote, "I will talk about it more in any way that you think is just.
另外，引用：“我会以您认为公正的任何方式更多地谈论它。
I am deeply sorry," end quote.
我深感抱歉，”引用结束语。
That, I am deeply sorry, was the first time Megan felt like he was speaking directly to her about how he'd behaved with her.
我深感抱歉，这是梅根第一次觉得他是在直接向她谈论他对她的行为方式。
She says she might have left it there with the deeply sorry except Dan sent out another tweet saying quote, "I'm filled with regret and a lot of foggy memories about abusing my position, treating you like garbage.
她说，她可能会带着深深的歉意把它留在那里，除非丹发了另一条推文，说：“我充满了遗憾，对滥用职权、把你当作垃圾对待的事情充满了遗憾和很多模糊的记忆。
I would feel a lot of relief if you told me there was a way to fix it.
如果你告诉我有办法解决这个问题，我会感到很轻松。
I'll let you call the shots.
我会让你做主。
Till then, at least I know I was an awful boss and a selfish baby," end quote.
直到那时，至少我知道我是一个糟糕的老板和一个自私的孩子，”最后引用。
The foggy memories line got to her.
模糊的记忆线向她袭来。
Yeah, I wrote, "I wish my memories were foggier.
是的，我写道：“我希望我的记忆更加模糊。
I wish there was a way to fix it.
我希望有办法解决它。
It took me years to believe in my talents again, to trust a boss when he complimented me and not cringe when he asked for my number.
我花了很多年才再次相信自己的才能，在老板称赞我时信任他，在他询问我的电话号码时不再畏缩。
I was afraid to be enthusiastic, knowing it might be turned against me later.
我害怕表现得热情，因为我知道以后可能会变得对我不利。
You want relief?
你想要解脱吗？
So do I.
我也一样。
Figure out how to give me that relief and I'll return the favor."
想办法让我松一口气，我会回报你的。”
I guess what I was reading into that tweet was, I was like, you're already thinking of you.
我想我读到那条推文的意思是，我想，你已经在想你了。
You're already thinking of how you can move on from this, instead of just sitting with the awful knowledge that I've been sitting with this for six years.
你已经在思考如何才能摆脱这一切，而不是仅仅坐在那里接受我已经忍受了六年的可怕知识。
And nobody helped me out of these feelings.
没有人帮助我摆脱这些感觉。
Nobody showed me a path back.
没有人给我指明回去的路。
I had to figure that out for myself.
我必须自己解决这个问题。
Over the course of this exchange, which went on for a couple more rounds on Twitter, Megan essentially wrote the outline of her own apology.
在这场在推特上又进行了几轮的交流过程中，梅根基本上写下了自己的道歉大纲。
She laid out some specifics that needed to be addressed.
她列出了一些需要解决的具体问题。
I doubted my talent.
我怀疑自己的才华。
I didn't know how to act around bosses or co-workers afterward.
后来我不知道如何与老板或同事相处。
I am still roiled inside.
我内心仍然翻腾不已。
I have lost time to this.
我已经为此失去了时间。
And of course, allocution-- a full account.
当然，还有allocution——完整的叙述。
Dan kept saying, I want to do the right thing.
丹一直说，我想做正确的事。
Tell me what's the right thing.
告诉我什么是正确的事情。
And Megan kept saying, I appreciate you're trying.
梅根一直说，我很感激你的努力。
Try harder.
再努力一点。
Dan didn't want to be interviewed on tape.
丹不想接受录音采访。
He said he didn't want to make this story about him, any more than it already is.
他说他不想再写这个关于他的故事了，现在已经是这样了。
But he answered questions via email and confirmed facts.
但他通过电子邮件回答了问题并证实了事实。
Dan said via email that after he read Megan's tweets, his first reactions were fear and self-pity.
丹通过电子邮件表示，他读完梅根的推文后，他的第一反应是恐惧和自怜。
It was his 45th birthday.
那天是他 45 岁生日。
He talked to his agents and accepted the possibility that his career in TV might be over.
他与经纪人交谈并接受了他的电视生涯可能结束的可能性。
And he had a reaction I've seen other men have-- it felt unfair.
他的反应我也见过其他男人的反应——感觉不公平。
He wanted to defend himself.
他想为自己辩护。
He says he realized, slowly, that there was no defending himself.
他说他慢慢地意识到自己无法为自己辩护。
He couldn't do it if he was honest.
如果他是诚实的，他就做不到。
And also, maybe he didn't need to do it because no one was attacking him?
而且，也许他不需要这样做，因为没有人攻击他？
He emailed, quote, "someone doesn't have to wish me harm to tell me that I harmed them," end quote.
他在电子邮件中引用，“有人不必希望我受到伤害才能告诉我我伤害了他们，”引用结束。
Dan says he got advice from women he knows in the business.
丹说，他从业内认识的女性那里得到了建议。
And he read a book called, On Apology by Aaron Lazare, recommended by his therapist.
他还读了他的治疗师推荐的亚伦·拉扎尔（Aaron Lazare）所著的《论道歉》（On Apology）一书。
Lazare says a complete apology has to start with quote, "an acknowledgment of offense, i.e. wrenching your brain away from its justifications and putting yourself in the other person's place." as Dan put it via email quote, "it seems crucial that you not skimp there." He said part of not skimping with Megan was to face that, quote, "I could have had the same feelings I had and not caused damage.
拉扎尔说，完整的道歉必须从引用开始，“承认冒犯，也就是说，让你的大脑脱离其正当理由，把自己放在别人的位置上。”正如丹通过电子邮件引用的那样，“这似乎至关重要，不要在这方面吝啬。”他说，不吝惜梅根的一部分就是要面对这一点，引用的话，“我本来可以有和我一样的感受，但不会造成伤害。
I could have shared the feelings and been told they weren't reciprocated and not caused damage," end quote.
我本可以分享这种感受，但被告知他们没有得到回报，也没有造成损害，”引用结束语。
Apologies are powerful-- they can be.
道歉是有力量的——确实可以。
But power is also amoral.
但权力也是不道德的。
It can be used for a pernicious goal as easily as a better one.
它可以很容易地用于实现有害的目标，也可以轻松地用于实现更好的目标。
One reason Megan needed a full account of Dan's intentional damage, and not just a big, I am deeply sorry, is that Dan actually apologized to Megan a lot back when she worked for him.
梅根需要全面了解丹的故意伤害的原因之一，不仅仅是一个很大的，我深感抱歉，是丹实际上在梅根为他工作时向她道歉了很多次。
It was part of the slow buildup of the harassment.
这是骚扰事件缓慢积累的一部分。
Megan was 25 when she started writing on Community.
梅根 25 岁时开始在 Community 上写作。
Dan was 37, creator and show runner.
丹 37 岁，创作者兼节目主持人。
In the room there was this imaginary lack of hierarchy that a lot of creative endeavors have-- we're all just making a cool thing together.
在房间里，想象中缺乏很多创造性努力所具有的等级制度——我们只是一起做一件很酷的事情。
The best idea wins.
最好的想法获胜。
That vibe is a lot easier to surf when you're older and can appreciate the ways in which it's true while seeing all the ways in which it's ridiculous.
当你年纪大一些的时候，这种氛围会更容易冲浪，并且可以欣赏它的真实性，同时看到它的所有荒谬之处。
And of course, the notion of a pure meritocracy is easy to believe in to the point of delusion when you're on the winning side.
当然，当你站在胜利的一方时，纯粹的精英统治的概念很容易被人相信，甚至达到妄想的地步。
Megan didn't want to rehash specific incidents with Dan on the radio, but she did talk about the way apologizing was a key part of the dynamic.
梅根不想在广播中与丹重提具体事件，但她确实谈到了道歉是动态的关键部分。
Like for instance, he would do something, say something to me that I wouldn't take as inappropriate.
比如说，他会做一些事情，对我说一些我认为不合适的事情。
And then he would apologize for it, for some little thing that he had said.
然后他会为此道歉，为他说过的一些小事道歉。
And I would say, oh, don't worry about it.
我会说，哦，别担心。
Like, I wasn't offended.
就像，我没有被冒犯。
And then the thing, the next thing that would happen, would be slightly more inappropriate.
然后接下来发生的事情，就会稍微不合适一些。
But I had forgiven him for one thing and I thought, oh-- every time that he apologized I thought, well, look, this guy is-- he knows.
但我原谅了他一件事，我想，哦——每次他道歉时，我就想，好吧，看，这个人——他知道。
Like, he's real switched on.
就像，他真的很兴奋。
He knows where the line is.
他知道底线在哪里。
Not realizing that all of those instances were slowly moving the line to a place where I had forgiven him so many times that it started to become maybe something that didn't seem that big of a deal to me.
没有意识到所有这些情况都在慢慢地将界限转移到我已经原谅他很多次的地方，以至于它开始变得对我来说似乎不是什么大不了的事情。
And had the last interaction happened first, maybe I would have had a stronger reaction.
如果最后一次互动先发生，也许我会有更强烈的反应。
Megan could see that other writers on the show, more experienced writers, noticed Dan's focus on her, his eagerness to choose her jokes, to leapfrog her into opportunities they'd had to work years to get.
梅根可以看到节目中的其他作家，更有经验的作家，注意到丹对她的关注，他渴望为她选择笑话，超越她以获得他们必须工作多年才能获得的机会。
People made little comments in front of her, or jokes about her favored status.
人们很少在她面前发表评论，或者拿她受宠的地位开玩笑。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I mean, instead of in that moment thinking, oh, my god, are people picking up on something here that I'm not picking up on?
是的，我的意思是，在那一刻不要想，哦，天哪，人们是否注意到了一些我没有注意到的东西？
I thought, well, you're just jealous.
我想，好吧，你只是嫉妒。
You're jealous that I'm doing better at this job than you are.
你嫉妒我在这份工作上比你做得更好。
And he would say things to me like, I never want you to think that my interest in you is anything other than professional.
他会对我说，我永远不想让你认为我对你的兴趣不是专业的。
I think you're a really great writer.
我认为你是一位非常伟大的作家。
And I reward you because I feel that you're a great writer.
我奖励你是因为我觉得你是一位伟大的作家。
And I wanted to believe that so badly that I, in wanting to believe that we're all equal and that there isn't any sort of untoward affection going on, I was not looking at it.
我非常想相信这一点，以至于我想相信我们都是平等的，并且没有任何不愉快的感情发生，但我没有看到它。
I wasn't perceiving it.
我没有察觉到。
And then when Dan told her he loved her and she turned him down and he began punishing her, that's when Megan caught up to some of the other writers' perception of what had been going on the whole time.
然后，当丹告诉她他爱她，但她拒绝了他，他开始惩罚她时，梅根就开始了解其他一些作家对整个事件的看法。
Yes, it felt like-- I know it sounds silly.
是的，感觉就像——我知道这听起来很傻。
It felt like an M Night Shyamalan twist at the end, where all of a sudden you have these flashes of all these things that happened and you realized, oh, my god.
感觉就像是结尾处的M·奈特·沙马兰的转折，突然间你会闪现出发生过的所有这些事情，然后你意识到，哦，我的上帝。
All these people are dead!
这些人都死了！
Megan Ganz It was sexual harassment the whole time.
梅根·甘兹（Megan Ganz） 一直以来都是性骚扰。
Megan says she loves Community.
梅根说她喜欢社区。
It's one of her favorite shows of all time, still.
这仍然是她一直以来最喜欢的节目之一。
She wrote one of the funniest episodes.
她写了最有趣的剧集之一。
Writing on the show was collaborative, but she is the credited writer on this one.
该节目的写作是合作性的，但她是该节目的署名编剧。
It's a Law and Order parody, of course.
当然，这是对法律与秩序的模仿。
The murder victim was a yam, part of a biology experiment.
谋杀案的受害者是山药，是生物学实验的一部分。
Remember the characters are all students at a community college.
请记住，角色都是社区大学的学生。
Grades were at stake, motives were complex.
成绩受到威胁，动机也很复杂。
There's a quasi trial scene out of A Few Good Men.
《好人寥寥无几》中有一个类似审判的场景。
Donald Glover plays one of the detectives, Michael K Williams, who plays Omar on The Wire, is the biology teacher.
唐纳德·格洛弗 (Donald Glover) 饰演其中一位侦探，迈克尔·K·威廉姆斯 (Michael K Williams) 在《火线》中饰演奥马尔 (Omar)，他是一名生物老师。
The actors are having a ball.
演员们正在狂欢。
There's so many layers of jokes-- jokes within jokes.
笑话有很多层——笑话中的笑话。
It's just a delicious piece of pop culture baklava.
这只是流行文化果仁蜜饼的美味片段。
How are you supposed to tell that someone who says you're really talented has another agenda when you are, in fact, really talented?
当你实际上很有才华时，你怎么能看出一个说你很有才华的人有其他议程呢？
There's this thing of like, you have this experience that only one other person shared and you can't talk to that person about it because they're the cause of your pain.
就像这样的事情，你有一种只有另一个人分享的经历，你不能和那个人谈论它，因为他们是你痛苦的原因。
So, hearing him be so specific, especially about how when I rejected his feelings, how quickly that turn happened to the punishment for having rejected him-- that's how quick it felt to me.
所以，听到他如此具体，尤其是当我拒绝他的感受时，拒绝他的惩罚发生得有多快——这就是我的感觉。
But having him say that he made that choice consciously, and the fact that he said I treated her in a way that I wouldn't have done if she was a man, just can't be understated, like how important that is to hear.
但让他说他是有意识地做出了这个选择，而且他说我对待她的方式是如果她是男人我就不会这样做的事实，这是不能低估的，就像听到这一点是多么重要。
In his apology, Dan urged his fans not to attack Megan.
丹在道歉中敦促粉丝不要攻击梅根。
And most of the responses she got were positive.
她得到的大多数回应都是积极的。
Some of the writers from Community reached out.
社区的一些作家伸出了援手。
Women she didn't know got in touch to tell her they'd lived vicariously through her apology-- said they'd never gotten ones of their own.
她不认识的女性联系了她，告诉她她们通过她的道歉而生活起来——说她们从来没有得到过自己的道歉。
Dan ended his apology with a lot of hope.
丹带着很大的希望结束了他的道歉。
And I think that we're living in a good time right now because we're not going to get away with it anymore.
我认为我们现在生活在一个美好的时代，因为我们不会再侥幸逃脱惩罚了。
He said via email he feels less optimistic now.
他通过电子邮件表示，他现在感觉不太乐观。
He said one of the few responses he's gotten from men since he apologized was a guy who reached out to say how he felt frustrated that Dan had quote, gotten away with it, end quote, and he hadn't.
他说，自从他道歉以来，他从男性那里得到的为数不多的回应之一是，有一个人主动伸出手来，表示他对丹引用的话感到沮丧，逃脱了惩罚，结束引用，但他没有。
And he wanted to know what he could do to get away with it, because Dan's still working in TV.
他想知道自己能做些什么才能逃脱处罚，因为丹仍在电视台工作。
Dan's apology worked, partly because he finally took a risk.
丹的道歉起了作用，部分原因是他终于冒险了。
He admitted to things that, if Meghan had wanted she probably could have used against him.
他承认了一些事情，如果梅根愿意的话，她可能会用来对付他。
Lawyers advised him not to say those things, he says on the podcast.
他在播客上说，律师建议他不要说这些话。
By admitting them openly, he chose her well-being over his own comfort, maybe for the first time in their whole relationship.
通过公开承认他们，他选择了她的幸福而不是自己的舒适，这也许是他们整个关系中的第一次。
A lot of people just aren't willing to do that, even for seven and a half minutes.
很多人就是不愿意这样做，即使是七分半钟。
Nancy Updike is a producer on our show.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制片人。
Coming up, starlings and finches and crows, oh my!
来了，八哥、雀和乌鸦，天哪！
Why spiders and mollusks and slugs should hate their guts.
为什么蜘蛛、软体动物和蛞蝓应该讨厌他们的内脏。
I mean, OK, a new reason why they should hate their guts that you've never heard of.
我的意思是，好吧，一个你从未听说过的新理由让他们讨厌自己的胆量。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
This is This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Get a Spine!" Stories of people standing up for themselves, shaking off their fear, bracing themselves and doing what they have been scared to do.
今天的节目是《获得脊柱！》人们为自己挺身而出、摆脱恐惧、振作起来并做他们害怕做的事情的故事。
And as we were putting together today's show, we put out this call looking for people who are actually in that situation of having to face something that freaked them out.
当我们准备今天的节目时，我们发出了这个呼吁，寻找那些实际上处于不得不面对让他们害怕的事情的人。
And by face it I mean, face it right now.
我所说的面对它，是指，现在就面对它。
Over 200 people wrote in, people square in the front of big, life changing moments, and some smaller ones too.
超过 200 人写信，人们都在见证改变生活的重大时刻，也有一些较小的时刻。
Here's a brief catalog of spines recently grown across the country.
这是最近在全国范围内种植的刺的简要目录。
My name is Zoey.
我叫佐伊。
I am almost eight years old.
我快八岁了。
I'm about to try to dive off the diving board.
我正要尝试从跳水板上跳下去。
It makes me feel nervous but I don't know why.
这让我感到紧张，但我不知道为什么。
I am at North Heights Lutheran Church in Roseville, Minnesota.
我在明尼苏达州罗斯维尔的北高地路德教堂。
And in about 20 minutes we're going to start the service.
大约 20 分钟后我们将开始提供服务。
I'm going to preach my first sermon.
我要讲我的第一次讲道。
I sat at my desk today at work and read through it kind of softly so no one could hear.
今天上班时，我坐在办公桌前，轻声读了一遍，以免没人听到。
Tonight after work I actually read through it full volume and I was walking around the room like I normally would in the church.
今晚下班后，我实际上读完了整本书，然后像平常在教堂里一样在房间里走来走去。
I was holding my Bible.
我拿着我的圣经。
My wife actually came and interrupted me and she's like, it's time for dinner but you're doing a great job, so she could hear me from down the hall.
我的妻子实际上过来打断了我，她说，该吃晚饭了，但你做得很好，所以她可以从大厅听到我的声音。
I am about to have my first baby.
我即将生我的第一个孩子。
I guess I'm nervous for how long it could take, and to get too tired.
我想我会因为要花多长时间而感到紧张，而且会感到太累。
I've been thinking a lot about like, what I eat because I want to make sure that something that it's going to fill me up and things like that.
我一直在想很多关于我吃什么的问题，因为我想确保那些东西能让我填饱肚子之类的。
What did you eat today?
今天吃了什么？
Woman 4 A fried egg.
女人4 一个煎鸡蛋。
And we're in our bedroom.
我们在我们的卧室里。
Piper And we're about to have sex for the very first time.
Piper：我们即将第一次做爱。
I'm excited.
我很兴奋。
Piper Me, too.
派珀 我也是。
A little bit nervous?
有点紧张？
It's the kind of thing where, you know no matter what it's going to be weird the first time.
这是一种你知道无论发生什么第一次都会很奇怪的事情。
But, it's only going to get better from here.
但是，从这里开始，情况只会变得更好。
So, why not start now?
那么，为什么不现在就开始呢？
I do not want to be married anymore.
我不想再结婚了。
I'm finally able-- I'm admitting, OK, I did all the things.
我终于能够——我承认，好吧，我做了所有的事情。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
On Saturday at the end of this week I have to deliver my mother's eulogy.
本周末的星期六我必须发表母亲的悼词。
You know, what I really need to do is focus on just really honoring her memory.
你知道，我真正需要做的是集中精力真正纪念她。
But I'm a little angry with her, a little angry with myself, and a little angry at the universe for, this is the way things played out.
但我对她有点生气，对自己有点生气，对宇宙有点生气，因为事情就是这样发展的。
So Zoey, they're moving a lap lane so that you can use the diving board.
佐伊，他们正在移动一条泳道，以便你可以使用跳水板。
How does that make you feel?
这让你感觉如何？
Excited and nervous.
兴奋又紧张。
Man 4 Ready to give it a try.
男人 4 准备尝试一下。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Man 4 Well, honey, there isn't-- unfortunately there's a little bit of pressure here because they're giving you a special chance to do it, but the board's still supposed to be closed.
男人 4 好吧，亲爱的，没有——不幸的是这里有一点压力，因为他们给了你一个特殊的机会去做这件事，但董事会仍然应该关闭。
So now's your chance.
所以现在你的机会来了。
I don't think I want to.
我想我不想。
Man 4 Today is not the day?
男4 今天不是日子吗？
Yes.
是的。
Man 4 All right, today is not the day.
男人 4 好吧，今天不是时候。
What do we say to the god of diving?
我们对跳水之神说什么？
Not today.
不是今天。
Those voices were collected by Aviva DeKornfeld and Diane Wu.
这些声音由 Aviva DeKornfeld 和 Diane Wu 收集。
Which brings us to Act Two, Act Two of our program, Because You're Spine, I Walk the Line.
这就把我们带到了第二幕，我们节目的第二幕，因为你是脊柱，所以我走这条线。
So our show today is about the spineless getting a spine.
所以我们今天的节目是关于没有脊椎的人变得有脊椎的。
And in this act we turned to those who are truly spineless and by that I mean literally, they are literally creatures who have no spines.
在这一行动中，我们转向那些真正没有脊椎的人，我的意思是字面意思，他们实际上是没有脊椎的生物。
Also featured in the story, the scientists who study them, who, like us all, could sometimes use a little more spine.
故事中还有研究它们的科学家，他们和我们所有人一样，有时需要更多的勇气。
Lilly Sullivan explains.
莉莉·沙利文解释道。
A while back I was talking to my friend Jackie and she tells me, oh man, Malcolm started a bunch of drama at work.
不久前，我和我的朋友杰基聊天，她告诉我，天哪，马尔科姆在工作中引发了一系列戏剧性事件。
Malcolm's her husband.
马尔科姆是她的丈夫。
And that surprised me because Malcolm's workplace has never struck me as all that traumatic.
这让我感到惊讶，因为马尔科姆的工作场所从来没有给我带来那么大的创伤。
Here's Jackie.
这是杰基。
He works with spiders, wolf spiders.
他与蜘蛛、狼蛛一起工作。
Like, the bulk of his research has been about wolf spiders mating.
比如，他的大部分研究都是关于狼蛛的交配。
He watches wolf spiders have sex.
他观察狼蛛交配。
Malcolm Rosenthal, he's a scientist, a behavioral ecologist.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔，他是一位科学家，一位行为生态学家。
And wolf spiders, if that name sounds wild it's actually one of the most common spiders out there-- brown, nondescript.
还有狼蛛，如果这个名字听起来很狂野，它实际上是最常见的蜘蛛之一——棕色，不起眼。
If you turn over a rock and you see a spider, it's likely a wolf spider.
如果你翻过一块石头，看到一只蜘蛛，它很可能是一只狼蛛。
He thinks they're cute now.
他觉得他们现在很可爱。
Like, he frequently calls them like, they're like little puppies!
就像，他经常这样称呼他们，他们就像小狗一样！
They look at me with their little puppy eyes.
他们用小狗般的小眼睛看着我。
They're kind of like little puppies.
它们有点像小狗。
They look around at you, they follow you, they-- you know, watching the males do these sad little dances and try to get the attention of a mate, and fail more often than not.
它们环顾四周，跟随你，它们——你知道，看着雄性跳着这些悲伤的小舞蹈，试图引起配偶的注意，但往往会失败。
You can't watch that 1,000 times without getting a little bit attached.
你不可能看 1000 遍而不产生一点兴趣。
Yeah, spiders are shockingly charismatic.
是的，蜘蛛具有惊人的魅力。
Nope.
没有。
Let's go a little further.
让我们更进一步。
That sad little sex dance, the spider's serenade while they do it.
那段悲伤的小性舞，蜘蛛在跳舞时唱的小夜曲。
Oh, no, I'm going to have to do my song impersonation.
哦，不，我得模仿我的歌曲。
[IMITATING WOLF SPIDER SONG]
【模仿狼蛛之歌】
Anyway, here's how the drama started.
无论如何，戏剧就这样开始了。
Jackie's a journalist but she'd often hang out with Malcolm and his spider co-workers.
杰基是一名记者，但她经常与马尔科姆和他的蜘蛛同事一起出去玩。
They'd go to this one bar every week.
他们每周都会去这家酒吧。
And they'd often end up doing what co-workers do.
他们往往最终会做同事所做的事情。
They're like, complaining about work.
他们就像在抱怨工作。
They're complaining about like, the gossip.
他们抱怨诸如流言蜚语。
It's just workplace shit talking, but like, scientists.
这只是工作场所的废话，但就像科学家一样。
They're giving Jackie the scoop on the thing they're all worked up about.
他们正在向杰基透露他们都激动不已的事情的独家新闻。
There'd been a big meeting earlier that week with a bunch of people in the animal behavior department.
那周早些时候，动物行为部门的一群人召开了一次大型会议。
So it was the spider lab, the cricket lab, and the bird lab.
这是蜘蛛实验室、板球实验室和鸟类实验室。
Someone had just heard that a paper they'd submitted to a journal had been rejected.
有人刚刚听说他们提交给期刊的论文被拒绝了。
My PhD advisor just casually said, oh, well, of course, it probably has something to do with the fact that it's so much harder to get things published when you work with invertebrates.
我的博士导师只是漫不经心地说，哦，好吧，当然，这可能与以下事实有关：当你研究无脊椎动物时，发表东西要困难得多。
And this other guy, who coincidentally worked with birds--
还有另一个人，碰巧与鸟类一起工作——
Birds-- not invertebrates.
鸟类——不是无脊椎动物。
Malcolm Rosenthal --kind of took offense to that and said, that's not true.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔（Malcolm Rosenthal）对此感到有点生气，并说，这不是真的。
That's ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
And then it kind of turned into a whole heated argument over whether this was true or not.
然后就变成了一场关于这是否属实的激烈争论。
And none of us really had any evidence beyond our own experiences.
除了我们自己的经历之外，我们没有人真正拥有任何证据。
And you know, our experiences were that we felt this was happening and his was that he felt like it wasn't, which I guess isn't surprising given what we worked with.
你知道，我们的经验是，我们感觉这种情况正在发生，而他的感觉却没有，考虑到我们的合作情况，我想这并不奇怪。
And I remember just being steamed about it.
我记得我对此感到很生气。
Among invertebrate scientists, people like Malcolm who study spineless creatures, there's a feeling that worms, beetles, mollusks, kind of get the shaft and that people who study animals with spines-- finches, chimpanzees, the fricking bottlenose dolphin-- they're the golden children of animal behavioral research.
在无脊椎动物科学家中，像马尔科姆这样研究无刺生物的人，有一种感觉，蠕虫、甲虫、软体动物，有点像有刺，而研究有刺动物的人——雀类、黑猩猩、该死的宽吻海豚——他们是动物行为研究的金童。
Malcolm calls this the vertebrate divide.
马尔科姆称其为脊椎动物鸿沟。
Maybe the broad strokes version of it would be that there is a lot of research done on birds and mammals, specifically.
也许它的粗略版本是，特别是针对鸟类和哺乳动物进行了大量研究。
And that for those of us that don't study this kind of very special group of organisms there is a sense that the work we do is valued less, or is at least given less airtime.
对于我们这些不研究这种非常特殊的生物体的人来说，我们会感觉到我们所做的工作的价值较低，或者至少得到的播出时间较少。
I mean, this is definitely the number one bar topic when you get a bunch of invertebrate scientists drunk together-- which happens a lot, actually.
我的意思是，当一群无脊椎动物科学家一起喝醉时，这绝对是酒吧的头号话题——实际上这种情况经常发生。
The fact that the bird guy not only didn't know about any of that but also told them they were wrong, it infuriated Malcolm.
事实上，鸟人不仅不知道这些，还告诉他们他们错了，这激怒了马尔科姆。
And it stuck with him.
这件事一直困扰着他。
He couldn't let it go.
他无法放手。
Months passed and he and Jackie moved to Canada.
几个月过去了，他和杰基搬到了加拿大。
Jackie's excited to explore their new neighborhood and Malcolm is still thinking about that fight.
杰基很高兴探索他们的新社区，而马尔科姆仍在思考那场战斗。
We went out to breakfast and he was like, yeah, and he said this thing and I still can't believe that he said that bird papers don't get published more.
我们出去吃早餐，他说，是的，他说了这件事，我仍然不敢相信他说鸟类论文不再发表。
And I think I said, like, oh, well, is there a way that we could-- is there a way to prove that?
我想我说过，哦，好吧，我们有没有办法——有办法证明这一点吗？
Or is there a way that you could find out if bird papers or vertebrates get published more than spider papers?
或者有什么方法可以知道鸟类论文或脊椎动物论文的发表量是否比蜘蛛论文多？
He couldn't actually get a list of all the rejected animal papers ever written, though he thought about it.
尽管他想了想，但他实际上无法获得所有被拒绝的动物论文的清单。
But there was a next best thing.
但还有一个最好的事情。
And then I think he made a joke about like, yeah, if you went through the whole archive of a journal and went through and looked at every paper they'd ever published.
然后我想他开了个玩笑，是的，如果你浏览一本期刊的整个档案，浏览并查看他们发表的每一篇论文。
And I was like, can you do that?
我当时想，你能做到吗？
Is that-- like, is that possible?
这可能吗？
And he was like, yeah, I guess you could do that.
他说，是的，我想你可以做到。
I mean, yeah.
我的意思是，是的。
I was like, I could do it.
我当时想，我能做到。
We could just like split up the data set at night, because we always like watching dumb TV in the evenings.
我们可以在晚上分割数据集，因为我们总是喜欢在晚上看愚蠢的电视。
But I don't think he was actually going to do it.
但我不认为他真的会这么做。
A few weeks later, Malcolm had to attend a mandatory training session about biosafety techniques-- nine hours of training and videos about proper glove use, lab coats, a three hour presentation on how to use a special kind of biology cabinet which are for like-- never mind.
几周后，马尔科姆必须参加关于生物安全技术的强制性培训课程——九小时的培训和关于正确使用手套、实验室外套的视频，以及关于如何使用特殊类型的生物柜的三小时演示——没关系。
Malcolm would never have to use them anyway.
无论如何，马尔科姆永远都不需要使用它们。
So I was bored.
所以我很无聊。
I was so fucking bored.
我真他妈无聊。
I was so bored that I just went to the journal Animal Behaviour's website, and just started downloading every single paper that they'd published, and just copying down what the animal was for every single paper.
我太无聊了，所以我就去了《动物行为》杂志的网站，开始下载他们发表的每一篇论文，并抄下每一篇论文中的动物是什么。
And then by the end of three hours I had like, 400 papers done.
三小时后，我完成了大约 400 篇论文。
And you start doing this thing just because you're bored out of your mind?
你开始做这件事只是因为你无聊得发疯？
Bored, and a little bit of spite maybe towards that person who disagreed with me during that conversation.
无聊，也许还有一点对在那次谈话中与我意见不同的人的怨恨。
Like, how cool would it be just to throw this massive data set down on this table and be like, ah!
就像，如果将如此庞大的数据集放在这张桌子上，然后说，啊！
I told you!
我告诉你了！
Malcolm picked one of the flagship journals in the field of animal behavior, which is called Animal Behaviour.
马尔科姆选择了动物行为领域的旗舰期刊之一，《动物行为》。
He picked it because it had 61 years worth of publications.
他选择这本书是因为它有 61 年的出版物价值。
It's a good indicator of what's going on in the field.
这是该领域正在发生的事情的一个很好的指标。
And he starts going through, paper by paper, counting up.
然后他开始一张一张地翻阅，数数。
How many papers on birds?
有多少篇关于鸟类的论文？
How many on insects?
昆虫有多少？
Like a scorecard for every living creature.
就像每个生物的记分卡一样。
He hires a bunch of undergrads to help out.
他雇佣了一群本科生来帮忙。
There's estimated to be something like 10 million species out there-- most haven't been studied at all and a few have been studied a ton.
据估计，那里大约有 1000 万个物种——大多数物种根本没有被研究过，少数已经被研究过很多。
Here's what he found.
这是他的发现。
I mean, I hate to just throw numbers out instead of emotions, but birds and mammals together are less than one half of one half of 1% of all species and they represent half of all papers published in the past 50 years.
我的意思是，我讨厌只用数字来代替情感，但鸟类和哺乳动物加起来还不到所有物种的二分之一二分之一，而且它们占过去 50 年发表的所有论文的一半。
I don't know, it just kind of-- I find it almost hard to imagine.
我不知道，这有点——我发现这几乎难以想象。
I mean, if 99% of all animals are not them-- and it was even crazier than that.
我的意思是，如果 99% 的动物都不是它们——那就更疯狂了。
I mean, 20% of all papers published are published on passerines, which is a subset of birds.
我的意思是，所有发表的论文中有 20% 是关于雀形目鸟类的，雀形目鸟类是鸟类的一个子集。
So it's not even like it's all birds.
所以它甚至不像全是鸟。
It's the perching birds, the little chirpy tweet birds, the ones that aren't ostriches or birds of prey.
这是栖息的鸟，那些叽叽喳喳的小鸟，不是鸵鸟或猛禽。
And it's really this tiny, tiny little group.
这确实是一个很小很小的群体。
And then within them, it's really just starlings and finches and crows.
然后在它们里面，实际上只有椋鸟、雀类和乌鸦。
Starlings and finches and crows are to behavioral ecology what the golden retriever is to living rooms across America-- beloved and ubiquitous.
椋鸟、雀类和乌鸦之于行为生态学就像金毛猎犬之于美国各地的客厅一样——深受喜爱且无处不在。
But the stuff he found went way beyond birds and bugs.
但他发现的东西远远超出了鸟类和虫子的范畴。
He discovered that just 10 species of animals represented a shockingly high proportion of papers published-- 15% of all papers.
他发现仅 10 种动物在发表的论文中所占比例高得惊人——占所有论文的 15%。
That means one in seven papers is dedicated to just 10 species out of millions.
这意味着七分之一的论文只讨论了数百万篇论文中的 10 个物种。
The magnitude of it was so totally shocking to me.
其规模之大令我完全震惊。
Oh, it's a lot worse.
哦，情况更糟了。
It's so much worse than I thought that I think it really-- it totally floored me.
这比我想象的要糟糕得多——这让我彻底震惊了。
You know, we talk about the natural world and all the animals in it and all the things they do.
你知道，我们谈论自然世界和其中的所有动物以及它们所做的所有事情。
But if you think you know the world because you've studied hundreds and hundreds of birds and mammals, maybe you don't know the world.
但如果你认为你因为研究了成百上千种鸟类和哺乳动物而了解了这个世界，那么也许你并不了解这个世界。
Like, maybe it isn't that bad but maybe the whole world is different than we thought because we just haven't been focusing our attention on the bulk of things.
就像，也许情况并没有那么糟糕，但也许整个世界与我们想象的不同，因为我们只是没有将注意力集中在大部分事情上。
Yeah, like we've been only looking at just a tiny sliver and we thought it was the whole world.
是的，就像我们只看到了一小部分，却以为那就是整个世界。
Not everyone sees it this way.
并非所有人都这么看。
I talked to a prominent bird scientist, William Searcy, who actually for six years was an editor of the journal that Malcolm analyzed.
我与一位著名的鸟类科学家威廉·西尔西（William Searcy）交谈过，他实际上担任了马尔科姆分析的期刊的编辑六年。
He told me he wasn't all that surprised by the findings.
他告诉我，他对这些发现并不感到惊讶。
Everyone knows that more papers come out on vertebrates than on invertebrates.
大家都知道，有关脊椎动物的论文多于有关无脊椎动物的论文。
But he didn't agree that that's some big problem.
但他不同意这是一个大问题。
As for birds, there are lots of very good reasons to study them.
至于鸟类，有很多很好的理由来研究它们。
For one thing, they're bigger.
一方面，它们更大。
You can see them, observe them, study them in their natural habitat.
您可以在它们的自然栖息地看到它们、观察它们、研究它们。
And they do interesting things that other animals don't do-- the way they communicate.
他们做其他动物不做的有趣的事情——他们的交流方式。
They can even develop and learn dialects.
他们甚至可以发展和学习方言。
Also, we've studied them for ages.
而且，我们已经研究它们很多年了。
We know a lot about them.
我们对他们了解很多。
So you can build on that research and make progress, really understand stuff in detail.
因此，您可以在研究的基础上取得进展，真正详细地了解事物。
But his main argument is this-- scientist should first identify a question, a theory that they want to explore, and then pick the species that best helps them explore that question.
但他的主要论点是——科学家应该首先确定一个问题，一个他们想要探索的理论，然后选择最能帮助他们探索这个问题的物种。
He says that's how science moves forward.
他说这就是科学前进的方式。
He thinks that prioritizing the animal over the question could lead to inferior science.
他认为，将动物置于问题之上可能会导致科学水平低下。
Like, to try to study every kind of beetle-- and there are a lot, something like 450,000 species known so far-- would be untenable, he says.
他说，比如，试图研究每一种甲虫——迄今为止已知的甲虫种类很多，大约有 450,000 种——是站不住脚的。
Malcolm says he's not arguing that there should be 450,000 papers on beetles for every one paper on starlings, just that maybe things are so out of whack that we're missing things and we don't even know what we're missing.
马尔科姆说，他并不是说每一篇关于椋鸟的论文应该有 45 万篇关于甲虫的论文，只是可能事情太不正常了，以至于我们错过了一些东西，而且我们甚至不知道我们错过了什么。
Malcolm figures, if he could just lay out the facts it might get people thinking.
马尔科姆认为，如果他能够列出事实，可能会引起人们的思考。
They're scientists, after all.
毕竟他们是科学家。
His plan is that he'll present all his numbers at this annual conference of the Animal Behavior Society, which is called the Annual Conference of the Animal Behavior Society.
他的计划是，他将在这次动物行为协会年会上展示他的所有数据，该会议被称为动物行为协会年会。
All the prominent people will be there, who are mostly bird and mammal scientists because that's how it goes.
所有知名人士都会出席，其中大部分是鸟类和哺乳动物科学家，因为事情就是这样。
This is in 2016.
这是2016年的事了。
You know, I'm still relatively early in my career.
你知道，我的职业生涯还处于相对早期的阶段。
I don't need to be pissing off people who might later be able to give me a job.
我不需要惹恼那些以后可能会给我一份工作的人。
And I was really worried that the big names would come to the audience and get grumpy.
我真的很担心大牌明星会在观众面前变得脾气暴躁。
I guess it's kind of the tame science version of speaking truth to power.
我想这是对权力说真话的温和科学版本。
Mm.
毫米。
Were you nervous?
你紧张吗？
Malcolm Rosenthal Oh, obviously, I was terrified.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔哦，显然，我很害怕。
He goes on stage and he does his PowerPoint.
他走上舞台并制作 PowerPoint。
Jackie's at home during all this.
这一切期间杰基都在家。
She doesn't usually go to Malcolm's conferences.
她通常不参加马尔科姆的会议。
She'd kind of forgotten when his talk was since they usually just talk at night so she was surprised when Malcolm texted her mid-afternoon.
她有点忘记了他的谈话是什么时候，因为他们通常只在晚上说话，所以当马尔科姆在下午三点左右给她发短信时，她感到很惊讶。
He was like, I just presented my paper and it was bonkers.
他说，我刚刚提交了我的论文，这太疯狂了。
He described it to me as the most raucous animal behavior panel he'd ever been to.
他向我描述这是他参加过的最喧闹的动物行为小组。
Wow.
哇。
Jackie I mean, science conferences are not exciting places.
杰基 我的意思是，科学会议并不是令人兴奋的地方。
And I didn't think people would go nuts for it.
我不认为人们会为此疯狂。
It has to be the coolest talk I have ever given, and probably the coolest talk I will ever give.
这一定是我做过的最酷的演讲，也可能是我将做过的最酷的演讲。
Just the most outrageous 11 minutes I have experienced in a conference.
这是我在会议中经历过的最离谱的 11 分钟。
How was it outrageous?
怎么这么离谱呢？
Malcolm Rosenthal So, these things are pretty staid usually.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔：所以，这些东西通常都很古板。
This talk was like being at a rock concert.
这次演讲就像在听一场摇滚音乐会。
People were yelling at me from the seats.
人们在座位上对我大喊大叫。
What were they yelling?
他们喊什么？
Malcolm Rosenthal They were screaming-- someone definitely stood up and yelled, "hell, yeah," at me, which might be relatively tame but for a science conference is outrageous.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔：他们在尖叫——肯定有人站起来对我大喊“天哪，是的”，这可能相对温和，但对于科学会议来说就太令人震惊了。
People were standing up, there was applause in the middle-- which never happens.
人们站起来，中间响起掌声——这种情况从未发生过。
You get tame, sad applause at the end.
最后你会得到温和而悲伤的掌声。
People were packing the room till there was no space to sit and people were standing jammed in the door frames, which is a great, awesome feeling, and has never happened to me before or since.
人们挤满了房间，直到没有地方坐，人们都挤在门框里，这是一种很棒的感觉，以前或之后从未发生过。
It was weird.
很奇怪。
The end was basically a call to action.
最后基本上是号召大家采取行动。
We were saying like, we think it's time for people to start paying attention to this.
我们说，我们认为人们是时候开始关注这一点了。
And we were getting cheers and fist pumps from the audience.
我们得到了观众的欢呼和挥拳。
It was nuts.
太疯狂了。
Fist pumps?
拳头泵？
Malcolm Rosenthal Yeah.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔 是的。
And the whole rest of the conference, people I didn't know were patting me on the back, which I really hate.
在整个会议的其余时间里，我不认识的人都在拍拍我的背，我真的很讨厌这一点。
I don't like being touched.
我不喜欢被碰触。
But people would come up and say like, hey, man, I super love your talk.
但人们会过来说，嘿，伙计，我超级喜欢你的演讲。
My name is Mark and I work on butterfly nest site locations.
我叫马克，我在蝴蝶巢地点工作。
It was like, people had been sitting there with all these feelings with no way to talk about them until now.
就好像，人们一直坐在那里，带着所有这些感受，直到现在都无法谈论它们。
It was like the people who studied the millions of species that did not have a spine, they now had a leader, one with lots of spine who was finally standing up to the authorities with their spiny menagerie of chimps and finches and dolphins and making them listen.
就像那些研究了数以百万计没有脊柱的物种的人一样，他们现在有了一位领导者，一个有很多脊柱的人，终于用黑猩猩、雀类和海豚的多刺动物园勇敢地面对当局，并让他们倾听。
And now that invertebrate scientists had seen how the bar graphs were stacked against them, they did not want it to end there.
现在，无脊椎动物科学家已经看到了条形图是如何对他们不利的，他们不希望事情就此结束。
Like this one guy at the conference started counting audience members at every talk, looking for patterns of preferential treatment.
就像会议上的一个人开始计算每次演讲的听众人数，寻找优惠待遇的模式。
So he'd gone to different talks and noted down how many people were sitting in the audience.
因此，他参加了不同的演讲并记下了观众席上有多少人。
And he was like, I only went to six talks today so it's not a huge sample size because I got real tired.
他说，我今天只参加了六场演讲，所以样本量并不大，因为我真的很累。
But it looked to me like in the vertebrate talks there were more people watching.
但在我看来，脊椎动物的演讲似乎有更多的人在观看。
He sent me a photo of his notebook.
他给我发了一张他笔记本的照片。
So he just like took a screenshot with his phone of his notebook where he'd handwritten this and then emailed it to me, which was hilarious.
所以他就用手机拍了他手写的笔记本的屏幕截图，然后通过电子邮件发送给我，这很搞笑。
All this felt great at first, but as Malcolm moved through the conference his scientist's brain noticed another pattern.
所有这一切一开始都感觉很棒，但当马尔科姆在会议中进行时，他的科学家大脑注意到了另一种模式。
We slowly started to realize that every single person who came up to start a conversation with me because they had been at that talk worked with an insect or with a spider or was an invertebrate researcher.
我们慢慢地开始意识到，每一个前来与我交谈的人都是因为他们参加过那次演讲，他们都与昆虫或蜘蛛一起工作，或者是无脊椎动物研究人员。
Which led him to this unwelcome conclusion.
这导致他得出了这个不受欢迎的结论。
The bird and mammal people, they weren't at that talk.
鸟类和哺乳动物的人，他们没有参加那个谈话。
I had been terrified and nervous to stand up and speak truth to power, so to speak, in this kind of like very marginal way.
可以这么说，我对站起来向权力说出真相感到害怕和紧张，以这种非常边缘的方式。
And then it was like discovering that power had just decided not even to show up that day.
然后就好像发现力量决定那天不出现一样。
And everyone who came up to me-- the thing people would say was, oh my god, all the things I thought seem to be true, which is nice.
每个来找我的人都会说，天哪，我认为的所有事情似乎都是真的，这很好。
But not as nice as, I'd never thought about this before and you really changed the way I think about the way our field is working.
但并不那么好，我以前从未想过这个问题，而你确实改变了我对我们领域运作方式的看法。
Malcolm finally got his findings in front of the people who skipped his talk, the vertebrate majority, when he submitted his research for publication.
当马尔科姆提交研究成果发表时，他终于在那些跳过他演讲的人（大多数脊椎动物）面前得到了他的发现。
OK, yeah, the title of the paper is Taxonomic Bias in Animal Behaviour Publications.
好的，是的，这篇论文的标题是《动物行为出版物中的分类学偏差》。
Evidence suggests that certain taxonomic groups are more thoroughly studied than others.
有证据表明，某些分类群比其他分类群得到了更彻底的研究。
The way scientific journals usually work is that when they consider a paper, they send it out for peer review.
科学期刊通常的工作方式是，当他们考虑一篇论文时，他们会将其发送出去供同行评审。
Basically, they get a bunch of other scientists in the field to look at it.
基本上，他们让该领域的许多其他科学家来研究它。
It's all anonymous.
一切都是匿名的。
When Malcolm gets back his peer reviews, they're unlike any he's gotten in the past.
当马尔科姆拿回他的同行评审时，这些评审与他过去得到的评审不同。
For one thing, they're twice the number of reviewers-- four when you usually get two.
一方面，他们的审稿人数量是他们的两倍——通常只有两个审稿人，而他们却是四个。
What's their response like?
他们的反应如何？
The response was mixed, I guess, would be one way to put it.
我想，这是一种不同的说法。
But mixed maybe doesn't explain how intense the extremes of the mixture were.
但混合也许并不能解释混合物的极端程度有多强烈。
Because some people were very into it and some people were very not into it?
因为有些人非常喜欢，有些人则非常不喜欢？
Yeah.
是的。
And the degree that people were into it was very high and the degree that people were not into it was also very high.
人们喜欢它的程度非常高，人们不喜欢它的程度也非常高。
Yeah, people were angry.
是的，人们很生气。
And they went to a place he did not anticipate.
他们去了一个他没有预料到的地方。
I ask him to read me one of the negative reviews.
我请他给我读其中一篇负面评论。
Ugh "The solution advocated by the authors of this study is affirmative action by journal editorial boards to promote and highlight work on underrepresented taxa.
呃，“这项研究的作者提出的解决方案是期刊编辑委员会采取平权行动，以促进和突出代表性不足的分类单元的工作。
Taken to the extreme this could lead to some kind of quota system policed by officers of taxonomic diversity on funding panels and journal editorial boards, and perhaps also on promotion and tenure committees," which is just outrageous.
极端地说，这可能会导致某种配额制度，由资助小组和期刊编辑委员会的分类多样性官员监管，也许还有晋升和终身教职委员会，”这真是令人愤慨。
I'm getting all steamed just reading this again.
我再次读到这篇文章就感到很生气。
Ugh.
啊。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean, the idea that we were proposing a quota system is crazy and it also kind of just means that they didn't read the paper.
我的意思是，我们提出配额制度的想法很疯狂，这也意味着他们没有阅读这份文件。
It means they got mad.
这意味着他们生气了。
They read part of the paper, got mad, and then didn't read the rest.
他们读了报纸的一部分，很生气，然后就没有读其余部分。
I mean, honestly it does remind me of the conversations around affirmative action.
我的意思是，老实说，它确实让我想起了围绕平权行动的对话。
It sounds very similar.
听起来很相似。
They go there very quickly.
他们去那里很快。
Malcolm Rosenthal I know.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔我知道。
We were just pointing out that it is a problem and that we need to think about how to solve that problem, and that may be assisting people who might be struggling working in underrepresented research groups might be something that we could do.
我们只是指出这是一个问题，我们需要考虑如何解决这个问题，这可能是我们可以做的事情，帮助那些可能在代表性不足的研究小组中努力工作的人。
I guess maybe that's affirmative action.
我想这也许就是平权行动。
I don't think it is, though.
但我不认为是这样。
It was weird.
很奇怪。
The words were so similar.
言语如此相似。
One, I just loved that they were like, the assumption that affirmative action is bad, which, cool.
第一，我只是喜欢他们假设平权行动是不好的，这很酷。
And then two, they immediately are just like, we bird people are under-- if we do this, bird people will be under attack.
然后两个，他们立刻就说，我们鸟人受到了攻击——如果我们这样做，鸟人就会受到攻击。
Like the way that people would be like, we only take the papers that are the best, and the bird ones happen to be the best.
就像人们一样，我们只取最好的论文，而鸟类的论文恰好是最好的。
And it's like, that was so similar to hearing about like, we just happen to take the best candidates.
这就像，这与听到类似的事情非常相似，我们只是碰巧选择了最好的候选人。
They're all white and dudes, but that doesn't mean anything.
他们都是白人，都是帅哥，但这并不意味着什么。
It's like, really?
真的是这样吗？
Does that not mean anything?
这没有任何意义吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I was like, you can't even-- even here, in like, even in this very, very, very tiny scale thing, we can't even talk a little bit about how we might be a little bit biased about anything.
我当时想，你甚至不能——即使在这里，即使在这个非常、非常、非常小的规模的事情中，我们甚至不能谈论我们如何可能对任何事情有一点偏见。
Jackie, by the way, is Filipino and Chinese, and Malcolm?
顺便问一下，杰基是菲律宾人和中国人，马尔科姆呢？
The opposite-- white.
相反——白色。
White is too bland, very white.
白色太平淡了，很白。
I mean, it sounds like there's some kind of an element with her, just like, ah well, yeah, you know, now you know how it feels.
我的意思是，听起来她身上有某种元素，就像，啊好吧，是的，你知道，现在你知道那是什么感觉了。
For sure.
一定。
I definitely approached this with the energy of a person who has never had to fight any of these fights before.
我确实以一个以前从未经历过任何此类斗争的人的精力来解决这个问题。
Not so for Jackie.
对于杰基来说却并非如此。
Jackie It was just like replaying so many dumb conversations, but it's like birds.
杰基：这就像重播这么多愚蠢的对话，但就像鸟一样。
And then I mentioned that sometimes I didn't want to talk about it.
然后我提到有时我不想谈论它。
I would be like, OK, do you mind if we maybe not talk about the paper today, or whatever, because I've had this conversation a lot.
我会说，好吧，你介意我们今天不讨论这篇论文吗？或者其他什么，因为我已经进行过很多这样的谈话了。
And I'm tired of talking about it.
我厌倦了谈论它。
She felt like, I know how this is going to end.
她觉得，我知道这将如何结束。
But her exhaustion with the subject did not deter Malcolm.
但她对这个话题的疲惫并没有阻止马尔科姆。
He was fired up, like they were on the verge of a revolution and it was time to lead the resistance for the ignored creatures of the world-- the boneless, the slimy, the microscopic.
他被激怒了，就像他们正处于一场革命的边缘，是时候为世界上被忽视的生物——无骨的、粘糊糊的、微观的——领导抵抗了。
Like, the iron is hot.
比如，熨斗是热的。
We've got the editorial staff at Animal Behaviour thinking about this.
我们《动物行为》的编辑人员正在考虑这个问题。
This is the time to strike.
现在是罢工的时候了。
And it seemed like it was working.
看起来它正在发挥作用。
The powers that be, a.k.a.
权力，又名
the journal, a.k.a.
杂志，又名
Animal Behaviour, accepted the paper and they got behind it.
动物行为，接受了这篇论文，他们支持了它。
Later that year, one of the scientific organizations that publishes the journal, they asked Malcolm to do something big about this for their conference.
那年晚些时候，出版该期刊的科学组织之一，他们要求马尔科姆为他们的会议做一些大事。
He and two colleagues organized a special symposium.
他和两位同事组织了一次专题研讨会。
They flew in invertebrate scientists from around the world to come show off their bad ass research on their bad ass species-- parasitic larvae controlling and bursting out of their hosts, extreme mating weaponry in the New Zealand giraffe weevil.
他们从世界各地请来无脊椎动物科学家来展示他们对坏蛋物种的糟糕研究——寄生幼虫控制并从宿主中爆发出来，新西兰长颈鹿象鼻虫的极端交配武器。
The plan was to end the symposium with this big two part conversation.
计划是通过这个由两部分组成的大型对话来结束研讨会。
First, how does this bias limit what humans know about the animal world?
首先，这种偏见如何限制了人类对动物世界的了解？
And second, what should we do about it?
其次，我们应该做什么？
Let's brainstorm solutions.
让我们集思广益解决方案。
It was a big deal.
这是一件大事。
It's exactly what Malcolm had wanted.
这正是马尔科姆想要的。
But when it came time to start the big two part conversation, they began by asking the audience, who here works with vertebrates?
但当开始两部分对话时，他们首先问观众，这里有谁在研究脊椎动物？
Raise your hands.
举起你们的手。
And no one there did.
但那里没有人这么做。
Again, it was like the people we were hoping to talk to had just chosen not to show up for our symposium.
再次，这就像我们希望与之交谈的人刚刚选择不参加我们的研讨会。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Malcolm Rosenthal You know, like other symposiums were more exciting and ours was kind of underwhelming to people.
马尔科姆·罗森塔尔（Malcolm Rosenthal）您知道，就像其他研讨会更令人兴奋一样，我们的研讨会对人们来说有点平淡无奇。
The people who were actually in the positions to do things had apparently thought there were better things to do than be there.
那些真正有能力做事的人显然认为有比在那里更好的事情要做。
Malcolm said that even some of his own friends, his bird friends, also skipped the symposium.
马尔科姆说，甚至他自己的一些朋友，他的鸟朋友，也没有参加研讨会。
It's a conference.
这是一个会议。
There was another cool panel at the same time about animal cognition, which is almost exclusively vertebrates with researchers who study like hyenas and nightingales and all kinds of passerines.
同时还有另一个关于动物认知的很酷的小组，几乎完全是脊椎动物，研究人员研究鬣狗、夜莺和各种雀形目动物。
After that, nothing else really happened.
在那之后，并没有发生任何其他事情。
It occurs to me, too, that I feel like you learned this thing that a lot of people learn when they're trying to talk about diversity and have to point out something awkward, which is just like, it quickly gets turned into a panel discussion and sanitized and becomes this awkward conversation that doesn't go very well.
我也想到，我觉得你学到了很多人在试图谈论多样性时学到的东西，并且不得不指出一些尴尬的事情，就像，它很快就变成了小组讨论并被净化，变成了这种尴尬的对话，进展不太顺利。
And then in the end, nothing really changes.
最后，一切都没有真正改变。
Yeah, that's the perfect summary.
是的，这就是完美的总结。
That's exactly what happened.
这正是发生的事情。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Have you seen any concrete changes at all?
您看到任何具体的变化了吗？
No. None that I can think of.
不，我想不出。
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
One of the reasons we study animals is to learn about humans.
我们研究动物的原因之一是为了了解人类。
Malcolm doesn't think that that should be the main goal.
马尔科姆认为这不应该是主要目标。
Nonetheless, studying the way that we study animals did teach him a lot about humans.
尽管如此，研究我们研究动物的方式确实让他学到了很多关于人类的知识。
Lilly Sullivan is one of the producers of our show.
莉莉·沙利文是我们节目的制片人之一。
Our program was produced today by Aviva DeKornfeld and Miki Meek.
今天我们的节目由 Aviva DeKornfeld 和 Miki Meek 制作。
People who put today's show together includes Bim Adewunmi, Emanuele Berry, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Hilary Elkins Damien Graef, Chana Joffe-Walt, Stowe Nelson, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天的节目的制作人包括 Bim Adewunmi、Emanuele Berry、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Hilary Elkins Damien Graef、Chana Joffe-Walt、Stowe Nelson、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、南希·厄普代克、朱莉·惠特克和黛安·吴。
Our managing editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的总编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks today to Gary Gullman, Nathan Englander, Lauren Weisstein, Anny Celsi, Kevin Allison, all the people we phoned about the spines they were growing, Yannos and Ashley Misitzis, Dai Shizuka, Wesley Hochachka, and Alexa Junge.
今天特别感谢加里·古尔曼 (Gary Gullman)、内森·英格兰德 (Nathan Englander)、劳伦·韦斯坦 (Lauren Weisstein)、安妮·塞尔西 (Anny Celsi)、凯文·艾利森 (Kevin Allison)、所有我们打电话询问他们正在种植的刺的人、Yannos 和 Ashley Misitzis、Dai Shizuka、Wesley Hochachka 和 Alexa Junge。
Our website, Thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to her archive of over 650 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 Thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听她的 650 多集档案。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, last Halloween he draped a bed sheet over himself and chased his little nephew around yelling, boo!
你知道，去年万圣节，他把床单盖在身上，追着他的小侄子大喊，嘘！
Boo!
嘘！
I swear, he scared the hell out of that little kid.
我发誓，他把那个小孩吓坏了。
I feel really bad about it.
我对此感到非常难过。
He was a great guy, he did nothing wrong.
他是一个伟大的人，他没有做错任何事。
A great guy and I feel bad for ghosting him.
一个很棒的人，我为他的鬼魂感到难过。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。