672: No Fair! - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #672 | June 10, 2022 672: No Fair!
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 672 集 | 2022 年 6 月 10 日 672：不公平！
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass David, so, what problem was this supposed to solve?
序言：序言 Ira Glass David，那么，这应该解决什么问题呢？
The teachers were trying to get the kids to stop tattling.
老师们试图让孩子们停止闲聊。
Because it's a pre-K classroom, and it's constant there.
因为这是一个学前班教室，而且一直在那里。
Right.
正确的。
I should say, by the way, that you are David Kestenbaum.
顺便说一句，我应该说，你是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
You are one of our producers, our managing editor right now.
您现在是我们的制作人之一，也是我们的总编辑。
And this classroom is your kid's classroom, right?
这间教室是你孩子的教室，对吗？
I still don't get-- it seems like kids tattling on each other is just a fact of pre-K.
我还是不明白——孩子们互相闲聊似乎只是学前班的一个事实。
It is, but you've got 20-something kids.
是的，但你有20多岁的孩子。
I mean, you know, it's hard being one parent with two kids doing it.
我的意思是，你知道，作为一个有两个孩子的父母很难做到这一点。
Imagine you're in a classroom with, like, 20 kids.
想象一下，您在一间教室里，大约有 20 个孩子。
And if they bring it to you as a teacher, all these little injustices, you've got to get involved in all these cases, you know?
如果他们把它带给你作为老师，所有这些小不公正，你就必须参与所有这些案件，你知道吗？
Yeah, it's just a time suck.
是的，这只是一个时间问题。
And so one of the teachers had this great idea.
于是一位老师想到了这个好主意。
She took a tissue box, hung it on the wall, and then took this plastic phone receiver and hung it in it and said something like, that's the tattle-phone.
她拿了一个纸巾盒，把它挂在墙上，然后把这个塑料电话听筒挂在里面，然后说，这就是打小报告的电话。
Tell it to the phone.
告诉电话。
And I thought it was just brilliant.
我认为这真是太棒了。
And I just want to say, this is a place that loves kids.
我只想说，这是一个爱孩子的地方。
I would go to pick up my son Max, and I would have to wait because he would want to hug every single teacher.
我会去接我的儿子马克斯，我必须等待，因为他想要拥抱每一位老师。
And I would go to get Auggie, our older kid, and he would be like, I need five minutes, I'm in the middle of something.
我会去叫奥吉，我们的大孩子，他会说，我需要五分钟，我正在做某事。
Like--
就像——
I mean, I get choked up thinking about this place.
我的意思是，一想到这个地方我就哽咽。
And I love the idea of the tattle-phone, just as a vessel for all the little injustices that go on every day.
我喜欢流言蜚语电话的想法，它就像一个容器，用来容纳每天发生的所有不公正的事情。
And I wanted to hear what was said into it-- like, these little three year olds, four year olds talking into this plastic phone.
我想听听里面说了些什么——比如，这些三岁、四岁的孩子对着这个塑料手机说话。
OK.
好的。
And I should say, this is the part of the story I know very well what happens next.
我应该说，这是故事的一部分，我非常清楚接下来会发生什么。
We asked if we could put a phone in the classroom that would record the tattles.
我们询问是否可以在教室里放一部电话来记录流言蜚语。
The daycare was fine with that.
日托中心对此很满意。
I reached out to the parents.
我联系了父母。
I didn't know how they were going to feel about us recording their kids at, like, the worst moment of the day.
我不知道他们对我们在一天中最糟糕的时刻录制他们的孩子会有什么感觉。
But every single one of them said yes.
但他们每个人都说是。
Some of them said please, yes, do this.
他们中的一些人说，请这样做。
So we got a phone.
所以我们得到了一部电话。
It was this chunky red phone, kind of like 1980s style, we had it set up to record.
这是一部厚重的红色手机，有点像 20 世纪 80 年代的风格，我们将它设置为录音。
And we needed an outgoing message for it.
我们需要一条传出消息。
Hey there, you've reached the tattle phone.
嘿，你已经接到了窃听电话。
OK, tell me what happened after the beep.
好的，告诉我嘟嘟声后发生了什么。
Tell me the whole story.
告诉我整个故事。
I really hope to make some inroads in that four-year-old market.
我真的希望能在这个已有四年历史的市场取得一些进展。
I really hope that helps our ratings.
我真的希望这对我们的收视率有所帮助。
So what we're going to do now, David, is that you're going to explain what you heard on those recordings on the tattle-phone.
所以，大卫，我们现在要做的是，你要解释你在闲聊电话的录音中听到的内容。
And when you're done, I'm going to come back, and I'll explain what today's show is about.
当你完成后，我会回来，我会解释今天的节目是关于什么的。
OK.
好的。
So I brought the phone into class, and I set it up.
所以我把手机带到了课堂上，并进行了设置。
And the kids started to use it immediately and with great enthusiasm.
孩子们立即开始热情地使用它。
Eli told me a lie.
伊莱对我撒了谎。
Kid 2 Seamus wasn't sharing with me, and I don't like it, and I'm very upset.
Kid 2 Seamus 没有与我分享，我不喜欢这样，而且我很沮丧。
Nathan farted in my face, and I said, yuck, Nathan.
内森在我脸上放了个屁，我说，恶心，内森。
Catch that one?
抓住那个吗？
Nathan farted in my face, and I said, yuck, Nathan.
内森在我脸上放了个屁，我说，恶心，内森。
But the real crime?
但真正的犯罪呢？
And he didn't say excuse me.
他也没有说对不起。
David Kestenbaum I think there was enormous excitement just having a phone in the class.
David Kestenbaum 我认为课堂上拥有一部手机就让人非常兴奋。
It was larger than they'd probably ever seen in their lives-- bright red with buttons on it.
它比他们一生中见过的都要大——亮红色，上面有纽扣。
It was an old touch-tone phone.
那是一部旧的按键式电话。
Everyone wanted to use it, even if they didn't have a tattle.
每个人都想使用它，即使他们没有流言蜚语。
Kids sang a song into it.
孩子们唱了一首歌。
One tried to order a pizza.
有人试图点一份披萨。
Someone said, hi mom, please pick me up early.
有人说，嗨妈妈，请早点来接我。
Hi, Dad.
嗨，爸爸。
I love you.
我爱你。
Bye.
再见。
Kid 5 Uh, our baby turned into a ducky, and I don't know how it turn into a ducky.
Kid 5 呃，我们的宝宝变成了小鸭子，我不知道它是怎么变成小鸭子的。
And that's why her turned into a ducky and turned back to a baby.
这就是为什么她变成了一只鸭子，又变回了一个婴儿。
Uh-- I'm sorry, I need to hang up on you for one second.
呃——抱歉，我需要挂断你的电话一秒钟。
Several calls later, conscience heavy, that kid calls back.
打了几个电话后，那孩子良心沉重地回了电话。
I'm sorry I had to hang up on you.
很抱歉我不得不挂断你的电话。
I'm just sorry.
我只是很抱歉。
The tattle-phone was like a magic portal into one preschool classroom in America, which is kind of incredible.
流言蜚语电话就像进入美国幼儿园教室的神奇入口，这有点令人难以置信。
Like most parents I'll ask my kids, what happened in school today, and I get nothing.
像大多数家长一样，我会问我的孩子今天在学校发生了什么，但我什么也没得到。
School is like this black box-- you drop them off, pick them up, and you have no idea what happens in between.
学校就像一个黑匣子——你把它们送走，再接走，你不知道中间发生了什么。
But now I had this phone.
但现在我有了这部手机。
It was set up so it sent me the messages as they happened.
它是这样设置的，所以它会在消息发生时向我发送消息。
It was funny listening to them from my desk.
在我的办公桌上听他们说话很有趣。
The portal into this classroom would open for a second, I get this little report from a kid, hear a little sound of the room, and then it would close-- sometimes for a while.
进入这间教室的大门会打开一秒钟，我从一个孩子那里得到这个小报告，听到房间里的一点声音，然后它就会关闭——有时会关闭一段时间。
Then the portal would open, I'd hear something, and then silence again.
然后传送门打开，我会听到一些声音，然后又陷入沉默。
There were never any tattles between 1 and 3 o'clock, because that was nap time.
1点到3点之间从来没有任何闲言碎语，因为那是午睡时间。
Then they'd start again, these little dramas.
然后他们会再次开始这些小戏剧。
Ramon is not listening to my teacher, Mr. Evans, but he's my favorite teacher.
拉蒙没有听我的老师埃文斯先生的话，但他是我最喜欢的老师。
And I know-- and I know he's mad at me, but I don't want him to be.
我知道——我知道他生我的气，但我不想让他这么做。
So I'm trying my best to listen.
所以我尽我最大的努力去倾听。
"My friend Simone." It's always their friends who are bugging them.
“我的朋友西蒙娜。”总是他们的朋友在骚扰他们。
My friend Jack was in my face when I was waiting to go to an area.
当我等待去某个地方时，我的朋友杰克出现在我面前。
And that made me really upset.
这让我很沮丧。
Um, when I'm playing family with Simone, [INAUDIBLE] keeping me awake while I'm trying to sleep, pretend sleep.
嗯，当我和 Simone 玩家庭游戏时，[听不清] 让我在我想睡觉的时候保持清醒，假装睡觉。
Can I just say, I'm not sure that one is actionable.
我只能说，我不确定这一点是否可行。
You're pretending to sleep and complaining that someone is waking you up?
你假装睡觉并抱怨有人叫醒你吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
People are not sharing the tattle-phone.
人们不会分享闲聊电话。
How much of their day is about, like, justice?
他们一天中有多少时间是关于正义之类的？
Oh!
哦！
I couldn't put a percentage on it.
我无法给出一个百分比。
But I could say the majority of the day.
但我可以说一天的大部分时间。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
This is Kathleen Jones, the lead teacher in the class.
这是凯瑟琳·琼斯，班上的班主任。
It is everything-- and rules.
它就是一切——也是规则。
They live by rules.
他们按规则生活。
They can sit down to play a game, and that whole playtime will be nothing but arguing about the rules.
他们可以坐下来玩游戏，整个游戏时间除了争论规则之外什么也没有。
And then there's no playtime left, and they feel good about it.
然后就没有剩下的玩耍时间了，他们对此感觉很好。
It's funny.
很有趣。
Like, they can't make breakfast for themselves, they can't get dressed, they can barely talk, and they're just full of "that's not fair."
就像，他们不能为自己做早餐，他们不能穿衣服，他们几乎不能说话，他们只是充满了“这不公平”。
But they're dynamos.
但他们是发电机。
Every one of them has something that--
他们每个人都有一些东西——
It's awesome.
太棒了。
Kathleen Jones Yes, exactly.
凯瑟琳·琼斯 是的，完全正确。
It's awesome.
太棒了。
They're wonderful.
他们很棒。
There's actual scientific research on this.
这方面有实际的科学研究。
Kids know when something's unfair, some when they're just 12 months old.
孩子们知道什么时候事情不公平，有些在他们只有 12 个月大的时候就知道了。
My kids weren't even walking then.
那时我的孩子们还不会走路。
And I know this is kind of obvious, but so many of the conflicts in this world come down to some version of what's going on in this classroom-- what's fair, how do you divide up something that there's a limited quantity of.
我知道这是显而易见的，但是这个世界上的许多冲突都归结为课堂上发生的事情的某种版本——什么是公平的，你如何分配数量有限的东西。
You know magnet tiles?
你了解磁砖吗？
We only have one acrylic one that's yellowish gold.
我们只有一种亚克力材质，是金黄色的。
That is it.
就是这样。
That is the prize in the class.
这是班级里的奖品。
Whoever gets that is like, I'm the king or the queen and ha-ha.
无论谁得到这个，就像，我是国王或王后，哈哈。
The gold-- that's what they call it, the gold.
黄金——他们就是这么称呼它的，黄金。
I sometimes think that the main usefulness of numbers for my son Max, the whole reason he knows how to count, is score-keeping-- how many of something he has and how many his brother has.
有时我认为数字对我儿子马克斯的主要用处是记分，他知道如何数数的全部原因是记分——他有多少东西，他的兄弟有多少东西。
It's a weighing of the scales of justice, no matter how tiny.
这是对正义天平的衡量，无论多么微小。
So did it work for you?
那么它对你有用吗？
Like, did they stop coming to you with their complaints?
比如，他们不再向你抱怨吗？
Yes, it did.
是的，确实如此。
It does work.
它确实有效。
Yes, that phone holds a lot of power.
是的，那部手机电量很大。
It gave the teachers the break they were looking for.
这给了老师们他们所寻求的休息时间。
I wanted to see if the kids thought it worked, whether the tattle-phone helped them deal with stuff.
我想看看孩子们是否认为它有效，闲聊电话是否能帮助他们处理事情。
So the other weekend I interviewed a bunch of them-- which, I have to say, these were some of the weirder interviews I've done in my professional life.
所以另一个周末我采访了他们中的一些人——我不得不说，这是我在职业生涯中做过的一些更奇怪的采访。
Bob Woodward, I know this isn't right, but I had to pay one interviewee a piece of gum.
鲍勃·伍德沃德，我知道这是不对的，但我不得不付给一位受访者一块口香糖。
Another kid, Nicky, insisted on performing magic tricks before granting an interview.
另一个孩子尼基坚持在接受采访之前表演魔术。
I did not have high expectations.
我并没有抱有太高的期望。
And then if I do this-- David Kestenbaum Wait, that worked really well.
然后，如果我这样做——大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）等等，效果非常好。
Wait, that was actually amazing.
等等，这实际上是惊人的。
Yeah.
是的。
David Kestenbaum Nicky then refused to talk about the phone at all.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆·尼基随后根本拒绝谈论电话。
But others clearly used it a lot.
但其他人显然经常使用它。
You have to tell the tattle-phone the whole story, what happened.
你必须把整个故事、发生的事情告诉那个爱说闲话的人。
Tell me the whole story.
告诉我整个故事。
That's all I can remember.
我只记得这些。
One girl's parents told me that they were on vacation staying at a hotel, which of course had a landline phone.
一个女孩的父母告诉我，他们正在度假，住在一家酒店，酒店当然有固定电话。
And their daughter, Simone, said, look, a tattle-phone, as if there was some sort of national tattle-phone network, staffed around the clock by government workers entering everything into a database.
他们的女儿西蒙娜说，看，一部打闲电话，好像有某种全国性的打闲电话网络，由政府工作人员全天候值守，将所有内容输入数据库。
My friend's kid Sean, who just turned 5 and who I adore, was the only one who could remember a tattle-worthy event from school in any detail.
我朋友的孩子肖恩刚满 5 岁，我很喜欢他，他是唯一一个能详细记得学校里发生的值得流言蜚语的事件的人。
He whispered it to me.
他低声对我说。
He was clearly kind of excited about this.
他显然对此感到有些兴奋。
His friend had kicked him.
他的朋友踢了他。
(WHISPERING) He what?
（低声）他什么？
Sean (WHISPERING) Kicked me in the penis.
肖恩（低声）踢了我的阴茎。
(WHISPERING) He kicked you in the penis?
（低声）他踢了你的阴茎？
Did you tell the tattle-phone?
你告诉偷听电话的人了吗？
(WHISPERING) That time, we didn't have any tattle-phone.
（低声）那一次，我们没有任何打小报告的电话。
(WHISPERING) Oh, you didn't have the tattle-phone?
（低声）哦，你没有打小报告的电话吗？
(WHISPERING) No. David Kestenbaum (WHISPERING) If you had the tattle-phone, would you have told it?
（低声）不。 大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（低声）如果你有那部打小报告的电话，你会告诉它吗？
Yeah?
是的？
OK.
好的。
It sounds like it might have been an accident.
听起来这可能是一场意外。
Sean stood up and acted out the whole thing in slow motion for me.
肖恩站起来，用慢动作向我表演了整个过程。
Slow motion.
慢动作。
David Kestenbaum Like it was a scene from an action movie.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 就像动作片中的场景一样。
His friend was trying to kick the ceiling.
他的朋友正试图踢天花板。
They should have a security camera in the classroom.
他们应该在教室里安装监控摄像头。
But they don't.
但他们没有。
David Kestenbaum They don't?
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 他们不知道吗？
Just the tattle-phone?
只是闲聊电话吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Kestenbaum A bunch of kids told me they felt good after talking to the tattle-phone, though the why it made them feel better, it took all my interviewing skills.
David Kestenbaum 一群孩子告诉我，他们在与闲聊电话交谈后感觉很好，尽管这让他们感觉更好，但这需要我所有的采访技巧。
This is Gabriel.
这是加布里埃尔。
How did you like having the tattle-phone in the classroom?
你喜欢在教室里使用闲聊电话吗？
Good.
好的。
David Kestenbaum How did it feel after you said something to the tattle-phone?
David Kestenbaum 你对着闲聊电话说了些什么之后感觉如何？
Good.
好的。
David Kestenbaum How come you felt good?
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 你为什么感觉很好？
Uh, because-- well, I felt good because I told on the person.
呃，因为——嗯，我感觉很好，因为我告发了那个人。
One girl told me talking to the tattle-phone felt like eating ice cream.
一位女孩告诉我，对着闲聊电话说话就像在吃冰淇淋。
It's nice to think that just getting something off your chest can solve a problem, that if you just release the fact of the injustice into the world you feel better.
想到只要把心里的事情说出来就可以解决问题，如果你向世界公开不公正的事实，你会感觉好一些，这真是太好了。
And sure, I think that can be true.
当然，我认为这可能是真的。
But we had the phone in class for a month, and I did notice toward the end, we got fewer messages.
但我们在课堂上使用手机一个月了，我确实注意到，到最后，我们收到的消息越来越少。
They came in regularly, but not with the same energy.
他们定期到来，但精力却不同。
It's possible the novelty was wearing off.
新鲜感可能已经消失了。
I think there's something else going on as well.
我认为还有其他事情正在发生。
Before we put the phone in the class, I had it set up in my house, just to make sure it was working.
在我们把电话放到课堂上之前，我把它放在家里，只是为了确保它能正常工作。
My kids used it a couple of times.
我的孩子用过几次。
And then our younger son Max was complaining that his brother, Auggie, who's a year older, had pinched him.
然后我们的小儿子马克斯抱怨他大一岁的哥哥奥吉掐了他。
Tell it to the tattle-phone, I said.
告诉那个爱说闲话的电话吧，我说。
It's not working, he told me.
他告诉我，这不起作用。
I picked the phone up worried that there was some technical glitch.
我拿起电话，担心出现一些技术故障。
But it was fine.
但没关系。
It's working, Max.
正在工作，麦克斯。
No, he said, it's not.
不，他说，不是这样。
It did not do anything.
它没有做任何事情。
It doesn't even work to me.
它甚至对我不起作用。
It doesn't even do anything.
它甚至什么也没做。
It listened to your tattle.
它听了你的闲言碎语。
Max No, it doesn't.
麦克斯 不，没有。
It didn't.
事实并非如此。
It didn't stop Auggie pinching me.
但这并没有阻止奥吉掐我。
It didn't stop Auggie pinching me.
但这并没有阻止奥吉掐我。
I know, Max.
我知道，麦克斯。
I know.
我知道。
Sometimes you want more than just to speak.
有时你想要的不仅仅是说话。
You want actual justice.
你想要真正的正义。
Thank you, David.
谢谢你，大卫。
David Kestenbaum You're welcome.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 不客气。
And that brings us to-- like, what are we, 12 minutes into the program-- it brings us to what we are doing today on our show.
这让我们想到——比如，我们是什么，节目开始 12 分钟——它让我们想到我们今天在节目中所做的事情。
Today we have people, some of them young, some of them old, wanting justice, feeling a sense of injustice, on things as big as the constitutional foundation of our entire country and things as small as the question of whether a ball is in or out.
今天，我们有的人，有的年轻人，有的老人，在大到我们整个国家的宪法基础的大事上，小到球进出的问题上，想要正义，感到不公正。
And in all those cases, people young and old not trusting the system to deliver justice.
在所有这些情况下，年轻人和老年人都不相信该系统能够伸张正义。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Hoop Reams.
第一幕，胡普·雷姆斯。
The journalist Michael Lewis, who wrote Moneyball and The Big Short and lots of other books and who contributes to our program now and then, he was looking around at what's going on in America these days.
记者迈克尔·刘易斯（Michael Lewis）撰写了《点球成金》（Moneyball）和《大空头》（The Big Short）等许多其他书籍，并且时不时地为我们的节目做出贡献，他正在环顾美国这些天正在发生的事情。
And he noticed that one way you can describe the current moment that we're all living through is that Americans don't trust the refs-- in all walks of life.
他注意到，描述我们现在所经历的时刻的一种方式是，美国人不信任各行各业的裁判。
They don't trust their impartiality.
他们不相信自己的公正性。
I'm talking about police, Supreme Court justices, journalists, the people who regulate the banks and Wall Street and student loans, the people setting medical costs, judges.
我说的是警察、最高法院法官、记者、监管银行、华尔街和学生贷款的人、制定医疗费用的人、法官。
So many people today feel the system is rigged.
今天很多人都觉得这个系统被操纵了。
I mean, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump both ran on that.
我的意思是，伯尼·桑德斯和唐纳德·特朗普都以此为竞选主题。
So many people feel that the figures of authority, charged with enforcing rules impartially, keeping everybody on a level playing field, that they're failing at their jobs.
许多人认为，负责公正执行规则、让每个人处于公平竞争环境的权威人士在工作中表现不佳。
It's not fair.
这不公平。
Michael Lewis has not published this reporting that he's been doing on this in a new book.
迈克尔·刘易斯尚未发表他在一本新书中对此所做的报道。
He's decided to make it into a podcast.
他决定将其制作成播客。
They launched this week.
他们于本周推出。
It's called Against The Rules.
这就是所谓的“违反规则”。
And Michael has adapted a version of their very first episode for us to play for you right now.
迈克尔已经改编了他们第一集的一个版本，供我们现在为您播放。
The first episode is about people not trusting the refs in the most literal sense of that.
第一集是关于人们不相信裁判的最字面意义上的。
It's about basketball referees.
这是关于篮球裁判的。
Here's Michael Lewis.
这是迈克尔·刘易斯。
For me, this story really begins with my 11-year-old son, Walker.
对我来说，这个故事实际上是从我 11 岁的儿子沃克开始的。
He plays on a basketball team run by a Japanese Buddhist temple.
他在日本佛教寺庙管理的一支篮球队中打球。
My son isn't a Buddhist, though most of the time he could pass for one.
我儿子不是佛教徒，尽管大多数时候他可能被冒充为佛教徒。
He has no conflict with his teachers or his classmates or his Japanese Buddhist teammates.
他与老师、同学、日本佛教队友都没有冲突。
I wouldn't say his mind is exactly pure, but usually it's calm.
我不敢说他的心是完全纯净的，但通常是平静的。
The exception is when he deals with refs.
例外是当他与裁判打交道时。
Even in what amounts to a Buddhist basketball game, anytime a ref blows the whistle on him, he throws up his arms in astonishment.
即使在一场佛教篮球比赛中，每当裁判向他吹哨时，他都会惊讶地举起双臂。
Then he jumps up and down with his little fists balled up and his mouth clenched tight, so everyone knows just how much injustice he's suffering.
然后他上蹿下跳，小拳头攥成拳头，嘴巴紧闭，谁都知道他受了多少委屈。
Then he marches off with a scowl.
然后他愁眉苦脸地走开了。
And he doesn't get over it.
但他并没有克服它。
After a game this season, he gets into the car and starts bitching and moaning all over again.
本赛季一场比赛结束后，他钻进车里，又开始抱怨和呻吟。
How did it make you feel when the ref made those calls?
当裁判做出这些判罚时，你有何感受？
Very mad.
非常生气。
Michael Lewis Do you feel any better now?
迈克尔·刘易斯 你现在感觉好些了吗？
It feels like someone keeps poking you in the back of the shoulder and then saying, foul, foul, foul, foul.
感觉就像有人不断地戳你的肩膀后面，然后说，犯规，犯规，犯规，犯规。
Have you ever fouled out in your career?
在你的职业生涯中，你有犯规过吗？
No. Michael Lewis Did you know that you were at risk of fouling out?
不。迈克尔·刘易斯（Michael Lewis） 你知道你有被罚下场的危险吗？
Yes, but I also knew if I did, it would be unfair because I knew that he was calling the stupidest fouls.
是的，但我也知道如果我这样做，那将是不公平的，因为我知道他正在吹最愚蠢的犯规。
He'll look back and say, oh, I was being a huge-- asshole.
他回过头来看，会说，哦，我真是个大混蛋。
Klay with the steal.
克莱抢断。
Klay in a footrace.
克莱在赛跑中。
Cousins trying to catch him.
表兄弟试图抓住他。
He can't!
他不能！
Klay with a very deep three.
克莱的三分球深度非常深。
The thing is, I know why my son does what he does.
问题是，我知道我儿子为什么要做他所做的事情。
He thinks he's Klay Thompson, the all-star shooting guard of the Golden State Warriors.
他认为自己是克莱·汤普森，金州勇士队的全明星得分后卫。
They reset back to Thompson.
他们重新回到汤普森。
Three-pointer-- bang.
三分球——轰。
When Klay hits a three, Klay pounds his chest and points to the sky.
当克莱投进三分时，克莱拍打着胸口并指向天空。
And so when Walker Lewis hits a three, he too pounds his chest and points to the sky.
因此，当沃克·刘易斯投进三分球时，他也会拍打胸口并指向天空。
And I think we have a technical foul as well.
我认为我们也有一次技术犯规。
On Klay-- very unusual.
关于克莱——非常不寻常。
When Klay is called for a foul, he scowls and throws up his arms in astonishment, and sometimes even says something to the ref that gets him slapped with a technical foul.
当克莱被吹罚犯规时，他会皱起眉头，惊讶地举起双臂，有时甚至会对裁判说些什么，结果被判技术犯规。
He only had one during the entire regular season.
整个常规赛他只得到过一次。
And Klay's the famously most laid back all-star in the entire National Basketball Association.
克莱是整个国家篮球协会中出了名的最悠闲的全明星球员。
Something has happened in the relationship between referees and players over the last, I guess, year or two.
我想在过去的一两年里，裁判和球员之间的关系发生了一些变化。
That's Ramona Shelburne.
那是雷蒙娜·谢尔本。
She's covered the NBA for the last decade for ESPN.
过去十年她一直为 ESPN 报道 NBA。
It's been, quite frankly, ugly this year.
坦白说，今年的情况很糟糕。
One of the Warriors head-butted a ref.
一名勇士队队员用头撞了一名裁判。
Another chucked his disgusting mouth guard off a ref's chest.
另一个人把他恶心的护牙套从裁判的胸口扔了下来。
And Curry has been thrown out of the game.
库里也被赶出了比赛。
And some of the stuff I've seen, I mean, when Draymond Green is getting fined for calling Lauren Holtkamp a-- can we cuss on your podcast?
我看到的一些东西，我的意思是，当德雷蒙德·格林因骂劳伦·霍尔特坎普而被罚款时——我们可以在你的播客上骂人吗？
I think we already have.
我想我们已经有了。
Ramona Shelburne You know, a fucking bitch-- like, when he is saying that to a female referee, man, that's next level.
雷蒙娜·谢尔伯恩（Ramona Shelburne）你知道，一个该死的婊子——就像，当他对女裁判说这句话时，伙计，这是下一个级别。
And I haven't seen that before this season.
在本赛季之前我还没有见过这样的情况。
It's the stars now who are really pushing the issue, right?
现在真正推动这个问题的是明星，对吗？
It's Kevin Durant getting thrown out of games.
凯文杜兰特被赶出了比赛。
It's Steph Curry getting thrown out.
斯蒂芬·库里被赶出了球场。
And the Golden State Warriors have completely unraveled.
而金州勇士队已经彻底崩溃了。
Last year, bad behavior got various Golden State Warriors tossed out of 10 different basketball games.
去年，金州勇士队的不良行为导致他们在 10 场不同的篮球比赛中被淘汰。
Kevin Durant, their best player, got thrown out of five-- four more than he'd been thrown out of his entire career up to that point.
他们最好的球员凯文·杜兰特（Kevin Durant）被排除在五次之外——比他整个职业生涯被排除的次数还多四次。
The men who coach the stars aren't much better.
执教明星的人也好不了多少。
Even Steve Kerr, the Warriors' famously decent, civic-minded coach--
就连勇士队著名的正派、有公民意识的教练史蒂夫·科尔——
If you back away from the Golden State Warriors, I mean, they're exemplars of the way people should behave.
如果你远离金州勇士队，我的意思是，他们是人们行为方式的典范。
Especially your stars, they're, like, impeccably behaved people.
尤其是你们的明星，他们就像是行为无可挑剔的人。
I'm so pleased to have my son emulating your players.
我很高兴让我的儿子效仿你们的球员。
The only time they have problems really is with referees.
他们唯一真正遇到问题的时候就是裁判。
Yeah.
是的。
Michael Lewis I can't imagine you in your life have another relationship like you have with referees.
迈克尔·刘易斯（Michael Lewis）：我无法想象你在生活中还会有像与裁判那样的另一种关系。
No, you're right.
不，你是对的。
You're right.
你说得对。
I would never say the things that I do to referees to a person in normal life.
在正常生活中，我绝不会向别人说出我对裁判所做的事情。
It happens two or three times a year.
这种情况一年会发生两到三次。
I've been caught on camera, you know, MF-ing a ref.
我被摄像机拍到了，你知道，我正在对裁判进行MF。
And, you know, my daughter will send me a text, like Dad, what are you doing?
而且，你知道，我女儿会给我发短信，就像爸爸，你在做什么？
It's all over Twitter.
推特上到处都是。
I can read your lips.
我能读懂你的嘴唇。
This is embarrass-- and I'm embarrassed.
这很尴尬——我也很尴尬。
So why is that?
那么这是为什么呢？
It's a sense of right or wrong.
这是一种对或错的感觉。
You know, I feel like there's this personal offense, like something unfair is happening.
你知道，我觉得这是一种人身冒犯，就像发生了一些不公平的事情。
The players get fined if they talk about the refs, so we won't be talking to them.
如果球员谈论裁判，他们就会被罚款，所以我们不会和他们说话。
But it's not just them or their coaches or my son who are treating refs in ways they'd never treat an ordinary person.
但不仅仅是他们、他们的教练或我的儿子以他们从未以对待普通人的方式对待裁判。
It's the fans in every arena who spend meaningful amounts of their time looking for the refs' mistakes on the JumboTron.
每个赛场的球迷都会花大量的时间在 JumboTron 上寻找裁判的错误。
It's the cable sports channels playing and replaying the refs' mistakes so their viewers can tweet and retweet about them.
有线体育频道播放并重播裁判的错误，以便观众可以发布和转发有关这些错误的推文。
It's this entire infrastructure, seemingly built to focus attention on whatever mistakes the refs make for the sole purpose of generating outrage.
这整个基础设施似乎是为了将注意力集中在裁判所犯的任何错误上，其唯一目的是引起愤怒。
(CHANTING) Ref, you suck!
（念诵）参考，你太糟糕了！
Ref, you suck!
参考，你真烂！
Ref, you suck!
参考，你真烂！
Ref, you suck!
参考，你真烂！
If there's one thing that unites Americans just now, it's their belief that the refs suck-- which is weird, because they almost certainly suck less than ever before.
如果说现在有一件事让美国人团结起来，那就是他们相信裁判很糟糕——这很奇怪，因为他们几乎肯定比以前更糟糕了。
Before you hate me for saying that, give me a moment to show why.
在你因为我这么说而讨厌我之前，请给我一点时间来说明原因。
So we're walking across a parking lot in Secaucus, New Jersey.
我们正穿过新泽西州斯考克斯的一个停车场。
And there are chain hotels and motels in someone's idea of a mall.
在某些人想象中的购物中心里有连锁酒店和汽车旅馆。
And we're surrounded on all sides by freeways.
我们四面八方都被高速公路包围。
It's like what people think about when they tell jokes about New Jersey.
这就像人们在讲新泽西州的笑话时所想到的一样。
And we're approaching a four-story, rectangular, otherwise nondescript concrete building.
我们正在接近一栋四层长方形、其他方面不起眼的混凝土建筑。
There's a discreet little sign here that says NBA and shows a logo with a basketball player.
这里有一个不显眼的小标牌，上面写着“NBA”，并显示了一个带有篮球运动员的标志。
Inside, a recent concession to the world we live in-- the Replay Center, a place where basketball referees review the calls made by other basketball referees in real time, to minimize referee error.
在里面，有一个最近对我们生活的世界做出的让步——重播中心，篮球裁判可以在这里实时审查其他篮球裁判的判罚，以最大限度地减少裁判错误。
The Replay Center was built to persuade people that life was fair.
重播中心的建立是为了让人们相信生活是公平的。
And the door is locked.
而且门是锁着的。
Someone eventually unlocks the door and leads me down a hall filled with a lot of old basketball stuff-- jerseys and bobbleheads and basketballs and posters of Michael Jordan.
最终有人打开了门，带我走进一个大厅，里面摆满了很多旧的篮球物品——球衣、摇头娃娃、篮球和迈克尔·乔丹的海报。
The Replay Center was the ultimate man cave--
重播中心是终极的人类洞穴——
Ultimate man cave, right?
终极男人洞穴，对吗？
Michael Lewis It's also the latest weapon in the battle for fairness.
迈克尔·刘易斯这也是争取公平之战的最新武器。
So this place, just on first view, is amazing.
所以这个地方，乍一看，是令人惊叹的。
It really is.
确实如此。
Michael Lewis It's wall-to-wall screens, 110 of them.
Michael Lewis：这是满墙的屏幕，共有 110 个。
What's on them is whatever is captured by all the cameras in 29 NBA arenas across the country.
它们上面的内容是全国 29 个 NBA 球馆所有摄像机拍摄到的内容。
They may have a screen somewhere with scores on it, but I didn't see it.
他们可能在某个地方有一个屏幕，上面有分数，但我没有看到。
And they're all muted.
而且他们都静音了。
What you hear is referees staring at basketball games.
你听到的是裁判盯着篮球比赛的声音。
What you see is nothing but angles on professional basketball courts.
你看到的只是职业篮球场上的角度。
Nobody's ever walked in here and walked out and said, this place sucks.
从来没有人走进这里然后走出去说，这个地方很糟糕。
That's Joe Borgia, who's run the center since 2014.
他就是乔·博吉亚 (Joe Borgia)，他自 2014 年以来一直负责运营该中心。
Before he volunteered for Secaucus duty, he refereed NBA games.
在他自愿担任斯考克斯队的职务之前，他曾担任 NBA 比赛的裁判。
His father was an NBA ref before him.
他的父亲在他之前是一名 NBA 裁判。
With a break in the late '60s, a Borgia has been reffing professional basketball games since 1946.
自 20 世纪 60 年代末以来，Borgia 自 1946 年起一直在职业篮球比赛中担任裁判。
If you went back to your dad at the beginning of his career and said, this is what it's going to look like, what do you think he'd have said?
如果你在你父亲职业生涯开始时回到他身边并说，这就是它的样子，你认为他会说什么？
If I told him we would have replay, he'd turn over in his grave, forget about a replay center.
如果我告诉他我们会有重赛，他就会在坟墓里翻身，忘记重赛中心。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Joe Borgia Oh, absolutely.
乔·博吉亚 哦，当然。
You see, the refs used to insist on their authority.
你看，裁判过去常常坚持自己的权威。
And everyone agreed that there was no better way to ensure the fairness of the game than to let the ref play god.
而大家一致认为，没有比让裁判扮演上帝更好的方式来保证比赛的公平性了。
The Replay Center is an admission that the ref is not god, that he makes mistakes.
重播中心承认裁判不是上帝，他会犯错误。
I think the mention of replay, none of us liked it when we first heard it.
我认为提到重播，我们第一次听到它时没有人喜欢它。
It's a necessary evil.
这是一种必要的罪恶。
It's necessary.
有必要。
You have to have it today.
今天你必须拥有它。
Everything is taped now.
现在一切都被录音了。
Everyone pays more attention to the referees' mistakes.
大家更加关注裁判的失误。
So the NBA has to as well.
所以NBA也必须如此。
Now, when a ref thinks he might have screwed up some call or didn't get a good look at the action--
现在，当裁判认为他可能搞砸了一些判罚或者没有仔细观察比赛时——
Watch the referee on the bottom of the screen.
观看屏幕底部的裁判。
There's your signal.
有你的信号。
Michael Lewis That's the signal to the ref in the Replay Center, who goes to work, reviewing the tape, looking for the best angle to figure out what actually happened.
迈克尔·刘易斯：这是向重播中心的裁判发出的信号，裁判开始工作，查看录像，寻找最佳角度来弄清楚到底发生了什么。
Sure, Dick.
当然，迪克。
We're going to give you two good angles, all right?
我们会给你两个很好的角度，好吗？
That's the first one.
这是第一个。
The other one's going to give you a better look.
另一个会让你看得更清楚。
The refs here sit dressed in black staring at screens, waiting for a signal from somewhere in America.
这里的裁判们身穿黑衣，盯着屏幕，等待来自美国某个地方的信号。
The end of games is when they get most involved, because that's when fans and coaches and players are most likely to accuse some ref of having made the mistake that changed the outcome.
比赛结束是他们最投入的时候，因为那时球迷、教练和球员最有可能指责某些裁判犯了改变结果的错误。
Of course, a mistake at the beginning has just as much effect on a game as a mistake at the end, but the end is what people notice and get outraged about.
当然，开始时的错误对游戏的影响与最后的错误一样大，但人们会注意到并感到愤怒的是最终的结果。
So the justice at the end of the game must be more exact than it is at the beginning.
所以游戏结束时的正义一定比开始时更加准确。
These Replay Center refs have video technicians with them, who can freeze a moment on screen, then zoom out or zoom in so that the entire screen contains only a player's fingertips or his toes.
这些重播中心裁判身边有视频技术人员，他们可以冻结屏幕上的某个时刻，然后缩小或放大，以便整个屏幕只包含球员的指尖或脚趾。
Here you just scroll through tiny slivers of the game, not the game itself.
在这里，您只需滚动浏览游戏的一小部分，而不是游戏本身。
The sliver is where injustices might occur.
条子是可能发生不公正现象的地方。
I mean, goodness gracious, if you don't have slow motion in here or freeze frame, it's very difficult.
我的意思是，天哪，如果这里没有慢动作或定格，那就非常困难了。
Of course, in slow motion, you can see things that the naked eye misses.
当然，在慢动作中，你可以看到肉眼看不到的东西。
Magicians sometimes perform during halftimes of the NBA games.
魔术师有时会在 NBA 比赛的中场休息时进行表演。
When Joe Borgia slows it down, he can see how they do their tricks.
当乔·博吉亚放慢速度时，他可以看到他们是如何表演的。
It's kind of the same thing with the players.
对于球员来说，情况也是如此。
Exactly.
确切地。
I can go 1/60 of a second at a time.
我一次可以走 1/60 秒。
You're gonna pick a lot of little things up.
你会捡起很多小事。
So what these players have gotten good at is creating optical illusions.
所以这些玩家擅长的是创造视错觉。
And then--
然后——
Of course.
当然。
Michael Lewis The sort of things that a magician does.
迈克尔·刘易斯 魔术师所做的事情。
Well, isn't flopping an optical illusion?
那么，翻牌不是一种视错觉吗？
Flopping is what they call it when a player pretends to have been knocked over by another player.
当一名球员假装被另一名球员击倒时，他们称之为“扑倒”。
Tricking the refs into making bad calls is now considered a skill.
欺骗裁判做出错误的判罚现在被认为是一种技能。
For possible flagrant?
为了可能明目张胆？
Michael Lewis There's blood on the screens.
迈克尔·刘易斯：屏幕上有血。
Kevin Love's front tooth got knocked in.
凯文·乐福的门牙被撞掉了。
Love plays for the Cleveland Cavaliers.
乐福效力于克利夫兰骑士队。
And the question is, did the guy who popped him in the mouth do it intentionally?
问题是，那个把他放进嘴里的人是故意的吗？
We're looking for the unnatural.
我们正在寻找不自然的东西。
Did he throw his elbow out?
他把手肘扔出去了吗？
The refs need to decide if the violence was not just excessive but unsportsmanlike, which sounds archaic, because we've sort of lost the concept.
裁判需要决定暴力是否不仅过度而且不符合体育道德，这听起来很过时，因为我们已经失去了这个概念。
Did he lead-- Referee But the foul was on Kevin Love.
他领先吗——裁判 但犯规的是凯文·乐福。
I thought he was outside--
我以为他在外面——
Yeah, but he was moved.
是的，但是他被感动了。
Referee He was moved.
裁判何先生很感动。
He was late.
他迟到了。
Come on, you gotta be quick on these.
来吧，你必须快点处理这些。
I'm still stuck on the blood coming out of his mouth.
我还停留在从他嘴里流出来的血迹上。
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
It's ugly.
太丑了。
Michael Lewis The players all stand around scratching themselves while the refs put on headsets and talk to the Replay Center.
迈克尔·刘易斯 球员们都站在那里挠痒痒，而裁判则戴上耳机与重播中心交谈。
Listen, there's a lot of contact.
听着，有很多接触。
A lot of it's accidental.
很多都是偶然的。
That was accidental.
那是偶然的。
The only thing stopping the Replay Center from checking every decision is that it slows the game down.
唯一阻止重播中心检查每个决定的因素是它会减慢游戏速度。
Here in Secaucus, they're still trying to figure out how they might talk to the refs as they run up and down the court.
在锡考克斯，他们仍在试图弄清楚当他们在球场上跑来跑去时如何与裁判交谈。
Because if they could do that, they could just fix every call on the fly.
因为如果他们能做到这一点，他们就可以即时修复每个呼叫。
The special forces, we found that we actually use a chip over the molar that worked off the vibration of the bone.
特种部队，我们发现我们实际上在臼齿上使用了一个芯片来消除骨头的振动。
Believe it or not, we did.
不管你信不信，我们做到了。
We got a handful of G League referees molded, and we tested that.
我们塑造了一些发展联盟裁判，并对其进行了测试。
But it wasn't good enough, because they didn't know where the voice was coming from.
但这还不够好，因为他们不知道声音是从哪里来的。
They didn't know where it was.
他们不知道它在哪里。
Was that a coach talking to me?
那是教练在跟我说话吗？
It's insane.
太疯狂了。
The time and money now being spent to ensure the fairness of what, after all, is just a basketball game-- a bajillion miles of fiber optic cable connect this room directly to the NBA arenas around the country, all for two calls a game.
现在花费的时间和金钱是为了确保这毕竟只是一场篮球比赛的公平性——长达数十亿英里的光纤电缆将这个房间直接连接到全国各地的 NBA 竞技场，所有这些都只需要两个人打一场比赛。
At two calls a game-- $15 million to build this room to get two calls during the game.
一场比赛有两个电话——花费 1500 万美元建造这个房间，以便在比赛期间接到两个电话。
But you gotta do it.
但你必须这么做。
You gotta do it.
你必须这么做。
Can I just pause here a moment, just to consider what the NBA has done in the past few years to improve the calls?
我可以在这里暂停一下，想一想 NBA 在过去几年中为改善通话所做的努力吗？
For example, they've brought in serious managers to hire and train the refs.
例如，他们聘请了认真的经理来雇用和培训裁判。
Joe Borgia calls his boss the general, because she actually was a general and an Air Force pilot.
乔·博吉亚称他的老板为将军，因为她实际上是一名将军和一名空军飞行员。
Her name is Michelle Johnson, and before she supervised NBA refs, she ran the Air Force Academy.
她的名字叫米歇尔·约翰逊，在监督 NBA 裁判之前，她经营着空军学院。
It sounds like overkill to use a general to make sure basketball games are well reffed.
使用一名将军来确保篮球比赛顺利进行，这听起来有些过分了。
But the NBA thought it needed overkill.
但NBA认为这需要矫枉过正。
Or at least Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner did.
或者至少NBA总裁亚当·萧华做到了。
If people don't believe that the league office is unbiased and that the officials are unbiased, you're going to have a problem regardless of the accuracy of the calls.
如果人们不相信联盟办公室和官员是公正的，那么无论电话的准确性如何，你都会遇到问题。
People watching at home are scrutinizing every call on their phones and their TVs.
在家观看的人们会仔细查看手机和电视上的每一个通话。
They had just enough information to be suspicious of the league.
他们掌握的信息刚好足以对联盟产生怀疑。
There's 18 cameras covering every game, that there's 18,000 people watching games with sophisticated smartphones that have high definition audio and video.
每场比赛都有 18 个摄像头覆盖，有 18,000 名观众通过具有高清音频和视频的先进智能手机观看比赛。
We started to get into trouble.
我们开始遇到麻烦了。
Silver took over in 2014 and also hired Joe Borgia to run the Replay Center.
西尔弗于 2014 年接任，并聘请乔·博吉亚 (Joe Borgia) 来运营重播中心。
Since then, he's taken a ridiculous amount of grief, just for trying to improve the justice on a basketball court.
从那时起，他就为了改善篮球场上的正义而承受了巨大的悲伤。
So here's what else Silver's done.
这是 Silver 所做的其他事情。
He's broadened the pool of people from which refs are selected.
他扩大了裁判的选择范围。
They used to be mostly white men, mostly from the same background.
他们过去大多是白人，大多来自相同的背景。
At one point, four NBA refs came from the same high school.
曾经有四名 NBA 裁判来自同一所高中。
He's hired more black refs and female refs.
他聘请了更多的黑人裁判和女裁判。
He's insisted that referees be physically fit so they can get into position to see all the plays.
他坚持认为裁判必须身体健康，这样他们才能就位观看所有比赛。
While everyone else in America is getting fatter, the refs are getting buff.
当美国的其他人都在变胖时，裁判们却变胖了。
They're also now getting new feedback on all their bad calls.
他们现在还收到了有关所有错误呼叫的新反馈。
Silver decided to publish the mistakes made by every ref in the last two minutes of every game so everyone could see them.
西尔弗决定公布每场比赛最后两分钟每位裁判所犯的错误，以便每个人都能看到。
He gives the teams and the refs a private document listing every refereeing mistake.
他向球队和裁判提供了一份私人文件，列出了每个裁判错误。
All this new data on refs means that we and they know all sorts of strange things about their minds.
所有这些关于裁判的新数据意味着我们和他们都知道他们的想法的各种奇怪的事情。
For instance, we now know that their calls have tended to favor whichever team is losing.
例如，我们现在知道他们的观点倾向于支持输球的球队。
Their calls also favor the home team.
他们的判罚也有利于主队。
Some large part of home court advantage is just the refs.
主场优势的很大一部分就是裁判。
The analytics department of the Houston Rockets has even done a study that shows that the home team that gets the best calls is the Utah Jazz.
休斯敦火箭队的分析部门甚至做了一项研究，结果显示，获得最佳判罚的主队是犹他爵士队。
Why Utah?
为什么是犹他州？
Who knows?
谁知道？
But you can be sure that someone will figure that out.
但你可以确信有人会解决这个问题。
There's now basically a small army of geeks analyzing all this new data.
现在基本上有一小群极客在分析所有这些新数据。
Look, I don't really like writing papers about sports.
听着，我不太喜欢写有关体育的论文。
I'd prefer to write about the economy.
我更喜欢写经济方面的文章。
That's Justin Wolfers, a behavioral economist at the University of Michigan, and the co-author of a paper about NBA refs.
他就是贾斯汀·沃尔弗斯 (Justin Wolfers)，密歇根大学的行为经济学家，也是一篇关于 NBA 裁判的论文的合著者。
But the thing is, this is a domain where the NBA referees have tremendous incentives not to make the wrong call.
但问题是，在这个领域，NBA 裁判有巨大的动机不做出错误的判罚。
Every error they make is tracked.
他们犯的每个错误都会被跟踪。
Those errors determine whether they get more games.
这些错误决定了他们是否能获得更多比赛机会。
Those games determine how much they get paid.
这些游戏决定了他们能得到多少报酬。
This is arguably the most analyzed workforce in the country.
这可以说是该国最受分析的劳动力。
Basketball referees are now picked apart in ways that not long ago would have seemed preposterous-- not just for the fairness of their calls but for their unconscious behavior.
现在，篮球裁判的分类方式在不久前还显得荒谬——不仅是因为他们判罚的公平性，还因为他们无意识的行为。
Wolfers took data from over a decade of NBA basketball games, more than 250,000 of them.
沃尔弗斯从十多年的 NBA 篮球比赛中获取了超过 25 万场比赛的数据。
Then he set out to look for evidence of the refs' racial bias.
然后他开始寻找裁判种族偏见的证据。
The question here isn't whether people are anti-black or anti-white but whether there's an in-group bias.
这里的问题不是人们是反黑人还是反白人，而是是否存在群体内偏见。
So if a predominately black team is playing and the refereeing crew is predominantly white, are there more fouls called against them than on nights when the same team is playing with a predominantly black refereeing crew?
因此，如果一支以黑人为主的球队进行比赛，而裁判组以白人为主，那么对他们的犯规是否会比同一支球队以黑人为主的裁判组进行比赛的夜晚更多？
And it turns out, the answer is yes.
事实证明，答案是肯定的。
Wolfers wrote his paper back in 2007, before this new age of referee transparency.
沃尔弗斯早在 2007 年就写下了他的论文，那时裁判透明度还没有进入新时代。
Well, it was a bit of a lesson for me.
嗯，这对我来说是一个教训。
You can probably tell by my accent, Michael, I'm an Australian.
迈克尔，你可能可以从我的口音中看出我是澳大利亚人。
You know, I thought it was an interesting piece of social science.
你知道，我认为这是社会科学的一个有趣的部分。
It turned out The New York Times put it on the front page.
结果《纽约时报》把它放在了头版。
And the NBA wasn't happy.
NBA对此并不高兴。
The commissioner at the time attacked the study and embarrassed the league by trying and failing to refute its findings.
当时的专员攻击了这项研究，并试图反驳研究结果，但未能成功，让联盟感到尴尬。
This morning we'll hear from the NBA commissioner, David Stern.
今天早上我们将听到 NBA 总裁大卫·斯特恩的讲话。
Our referees are the most reviewed, most ranked, and most rated.
我们的裁判是最受审查、排名最高和评分最高的。
And that's why we take exception to what The Times did here.
这就是为什么我们对《泰晤士报》在这里所做的事情表示反对。
That's Stern on NPR in 2007.
这是 2007 年 NPR 上的斯特恩。
The result of all this coverage, every single referee was made aware of his unconscious bias.
所有这些报道的结果是，每一位裁判都意识到了他无意识的偏见。
When the dust settled, Justin Wolfers was curious to know if his paper had had any effect.
当尘埃落定后，贾斯汀·沃尔弗斯很好奇他的论文是否有任何效果。
He made another study of referees after the controversy he'd created.
在他引发争议之后，他对裁判进行了另一项研究。
And guess what.
你猜怎么着。
The most recent study that we did seems to suggest that that form of racial bias has gone away.
我们最近进行的研究似乎表明，这种形式的种族偏见已经消失。
For a while anyway.
无论如何，有一段时间。
He has no idea why.
他不知道为什么。
Maybe simply making the refs aware of the problem was enough to correct it.
也许仅仅让裁判意识到问题就足以纠正它。
By the way, the NBA disputes this study too.
顺便说一下，NBA 也对这项研究提出了异议。
But in the end, this became a case study-- not in ref ineptitude but in ref reform.
但最终，这成为了一个案例研究——不是裁判无能，而是裁判改革。
NBA refs have now achieved what police forces can only dream of, though the refs have no choice.
NBA 裁判现在已经实现了警察部队只能梦想的事情，尽管裁判别无选择。
The world's now too good at seeing their mistakes.
现在世界太容易看到他们的错误了。
Look, there's no way any basketball referee is going to be perfect.
听着，任何篮球裁判都不可能是完美的。
But there's also no way these refs are anything but more accurate than they've ever been.
但这些裁判也绝对比以往更加准确。
I mean, even home court advantage means less than it used to.
我的意思是，即使是主场优势也比以前更不重要了。
And yet these refs are treated as if they're trying to rig the games.
然而这些裁判却被视为试图操纵比赛。
(CHANTING) Ref, you suck!
（念诵）参考，你太糟糕了！
Ref, you suck!
参考，你真烂！
Ref, you suck!
参考，你真烂！
Ref, you suck!
参考，你真烂！
Ref, you suck!
参考，你真烂！
The sound of those 18,000 people screaming at you or booing you, does it sound any different than it sounded when you started?
那一万八千人对你尖叫或嘘声的声音，听起来和你开始时有什么不同吗？
Yeah.
是的。
There's a little more anger involved.
还有更多的愤怒。
And, you know, it used to be, sort of, of the garden variety.
而且，你知道，它曾经是一种花园品种。
You're terrible, you suck, any of those kinds of terms.
你很糟糕，你很糟糕，任何这些词。
That's Monty McCutchen, who started reffing in 1993, and so got to see firsthand the effect that the arrival of the internet has had on referees.
这就是蒙蒂·麦卡琴 (Monty McCutchen)，他从 1993 年开始担任裁判，因此亲眼目睹了互联网的到来对裁判产生的影响。
A few years back, twitter exploded in game five of the Miami Heat and Oklahoma City Thunder finals from years ago.
几年前，多年前迈阿密热火队和俄克拉荷马城雷霆队总决赛的第五场比赛中，推特引起了热议。
One of the players hit a three point shot.
其中一名球员投中三分球。
McCutchen was giving the signal for three and running to beat the players back to the other end of the court when he realized he had lost his balance.
当麦卡琴发出三分信号并跑去击败球员回到球场的另一端时，他意识到自己失去了平衡。
Falling for a referee, it doesn't get much more embarrassing than that.
爱上裁判，没有比这更尴尬的了。
It's bad.
这很糟糕。
People are on you pretty good, you know.
你知道，人们对你很好。
And I'm trying to hold it up, and Erik was on the sideline.
我试图阻止它，而埃里克在场边。
And he sees me fall.
他看到我摔倒了。
Erik is Erik Spoelstra, the Miami Heat coach.
埃里克是埃里克·斯波尔斯特拉，迈阿密热火队主教练。
And he sort of just stood onto the floor and braced me.
他就站在地板上支撑着我。
And our arms sort of interlocked as he braced me, righted me.
当他支撑着我、扶正我时，我们的手臂紧紧相扣。
I yell out, thanks, as I go on by, and I run on down to the baseline.
当我继续前行时，我大喊“谢谢”，然后跑到基线处。
After the game, Twitter exploded that the NBA is rigged.
赛后，推特爆料称NBA存在舞弊行为。
If you don't believe that watch Monty McCutchen give a high five to Erik Spoelstra after this three.
如果你不相信，请观看蒙蒂·麦卡琴 (Monty McCutchen) 在这三分之后给埃里克·斯波尔斯特拉 (Erik Spoelstra) 的高五分。
And the reality of that was just so far and away wrong up against this real human moment of just a reactionary thing that a good person does for another good person.
与一个好人为另一个好人做的反动事情的真实人类时刻相比，现实是完全错误的。
You see someone falling, you help them not fall.
你看到有人跌倒，你帮助他们不跌倒。
He says that when he started out reffing, no one would have even noticed.
他说，当他开始裁判时，没有人会注意到。
And if they did, it wouldn't have mattered.
如果他们这样做了，那也没关系。
That's changed.
那已经改变了。
Mistakes get made as NBA referees.
作为 NBA 裁判，难免会犯错误。
And they're just mistakes.
而它们只是错误。
But they often get interpreted in this wider scheme of thought process that a lot of our cultures is dealing with right now, which is, there must be a fix in.
但它们经常在我们的许多文化现在正在处理的更广泛的思维过程中得到解释，也就是说，必须有一个解决办法。
There must be a reason for this.
这一定是有原因的。
Do you think the world is looking for a fix more now than it was when you started?
您认为现在世界比您开始时更多地寻求解决方案吗？
I think that the t-shirt I saw recently has merit-- "I'm not saying it's your fault.
我认为我最近看到的那件T恤有其优点——“我并不是说这是你的错。
I'm saying I'm blaming you."
我是说我在怪罪你。”
You feel abused.
你感觉受到了虐待。
Monty Mccutchen Yeah.
蒙蒂·麦卡琴 是的。
Now, you know, people do their research.
现在，你知道，人们进行研究。
Things are out there on the internet.
事情都在互联网上。
They know your record with their team.
他们知道你在他们团队中的记录。
There's all these sites on all these different--
所有这些不同的网站都有——
Oh, sure.
哦，当然。
Of course, some death threats are made from time to time in playoff series, and you'll get security all the way to both the hotel and then the hotel the next morning out to the airport.
当然，在季后赛系列赛中，时不时会有一些死亡威胁，您会在前往酒店的整个过程中受到保安的保护，然后在第二天早上从酒店前往机场。
That's a--
那是一个——
Not every night, but when those threats are a known factor-- it has happened in my career-- security to your car is mandatory every night.
不是每晚，但当这些威胁成为已知因素时（在我的职业生涯中发生过），每晚都必须对您的汽车进行安全保护。
And at some point you feel this question rising up in you.
在某些时候，你会感觉到这个问题在你心中升起。
In me it rose up while I was talking to Ramona Shelburne, the ESPN reporter.
当我与 ESPN 记者雷蒙娜·谢尔本 (Ramona Shelburne) 交谈时，这种感觉在我心中升起。
Seriously.
严重地。
I wonder that too, man.
我也想知道，伙计。
I just-- you know, they're not allowed to say anything.
我只是——你知道，他们不被允许说任何话。
They're not allowed to explain themselves.
他们不被允许解释自己。
They're not allowed to defend themselves.
他们不被允许为自己辩护。
Look, obviously they get paid.
看，显然他们得到了报酬。
They start at 150 grand a year.
他们的起步价为每年 150 格兰特。
And if they're great at their job and work extra games, they can make as much as 500.
如果他们非常擅长自己的工作并参与额外的游戏，他们最多可以赚到 500 美元。
But there are lots of ways to get paid without spending half your life in hotel rooms and the other half being insulted by arenas filled with crazy people.
但是，有很多方法可以获得报酬，而不必将半生花在酒店房间里，另一半生则被挤满疯子的竞技场所侮辱。
Do you think the refereeing has gotten worse or better?
你认为裁判的表现是变差了还是变好了？
Of course it's gotten better.
当然，情况已经好转了。
How could it not have?
怎么可能没有呢？
The mystery is why the stars and the coaches and the fans act as if it's gotten worse.
令人困惑的是，为什么球星、教练和球迷表现得好像情况变得更糟了。
Sitting in the NBA replay center in Secaucus, New Jersey, I get a hunch about that.
坐在新泽西州斯考克斯的 NBA 重播中心，我有一种预感。
After I see all these people on all these TV screens jumping around and hollering at refs, the ruckus appears to be confined to Cleveland.
当我在电视屏幕上看到所有这些人跳来跳去并对裁判大喊大叫之后，骚乱似乎仅限于克利夫兰。
But in here, it feels like the entire universe is disturbed.
但在这里，却感觉整个宇宙都被扰乱了。
There's a reason for this.
这是有原因的。
LeBron James is upset.
勒布朗·詹姆斯很沮丧。
See?
看？
He's arguing.
他在争论。
There he goes.
他就到了。
LeBron James is going from ref to ref.
勒布朗·詹姆斯将从一名裁判转变为另一名裁判。
He seems to know which refs to argue with.
他似乎知道该与哪位裁判争论。
Yeah, they're talking about goaltending.
是的，他们正在谈论守门员。
So they're talking about it, they're talking about.
所以他们正在谈论它，他们正在谈论。
I think they might change.
我认为他们可能会改变。
So James is-- James and the other guy had the best angle.
所以詹姆斯——詹姆斯和另一个人有最好的角度。
Do you think that LeBron James has any effect doing that?
你认为勒布朗·詹姆斯这样做有什么作用吗？
Um-- Michael Lewis The ref in Cleveland is not twirling his finger.
嗯——迈克尔·刘易斯 克利夫兰的裁判没有转动他的手指。
There's no signal to us to do anything in the Replay Center.
没有信号让我们在重播中心做任何事情。
LeBron's drama, strictly speaking, is pointless.
严格来说，勒布朗的戏剧毫无意义。
It's strange the way these players argue.
这些玩家争论的方式很奇怪。
They must think that if they make life unpleasant enough for the ref, he'll think twice before the next call.
他们必须认为，如果他们让裁判的生活变得不愉快，他会在下一次判罚之前三思而后行。
They didn't review it.
他们没有审查。
Joe Borgia Well, it's not reviewable.
乔·博吉亚 嗯，这是不可审查的。
Only in the last two minutes.
只在最后两分钟。
Come on, Michael.
来吧，迈克尔。
Get a--
得到一个——
Sorry.
抱歉。
It's then that it occurs to me, just looking around the room at 110 TV screens, I've had a hard time following the games, never mind the scores.
就在那时，我突然想到，只要看着房间里的 110 个电视屏幕，我就很难关注比赛，更不用说比分了。
I sometimes don't even know which teams are playing.
有时我什至不知道哪些球队在比赛。
But every time a player gets up into a referee's face, I've recognized the player.
但每次当一名球员出现在裁判面前时，我都会认出这名球员。
And I actually don't know that many NBA players, but I know all the ones who pitch these hissy fits, because the only players getting up into the faces of the refs are the famous players, or the coaches who protect them.
事实上我认识的NBA球员并不多，但我认识所有发出这种嘶嘶声的人，因为唯一敢于面对裁判的球员就是那些著名的球员，或者是保护他们的教练。
Ramona Shelburne put her finger on it.
雷蒙娜谢尔本将手指放在上面。
The more aggressive behavior towards refs isn't coming from every player.
对裁判更具攻击性的行为并非来自每个球员。
It's coming from the stars.
它来自星星。
It's just different than in the past.
只是与过去不同了。
Like, you know, when you're a star, I think there's this feeling that you've sort of risen above reproach.
就像，你知道，当你成为明星时，我认为你有一种无可指责的感觉。
You get used to a certain level of treatment.
您会习惯一定程度的治疗。
You get used to people who treat you that way.
你已经习惯了这样对待你的人。
And then you feel like you should be treated that way.
然后你觉得你应该受到这样的对待。
Yeah.
是的。
So a referee-- a referee to that person comes as a shock.
所以一个裁判——对那个人的裁判让人震惊。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
You know, with any star and any celebrity, there comes a level of entitlement.
你知道，对于任何明星和名人来说，都有一定程度的权利。
So anybody who goes against that, who doesn't treat you like a star, gets put into that hater category.
因此，任何反对这一点、不把你当作明星对待的人，都会被归入仇恨者类别。
You want to understand the way the refs are treated?
您想了解裁判的待遇吗？
Stop thinking of them as people just doing their best to try to make a game fair, and start thinking of them as haters.
不要再认为他们只是尽最大努力让游戏变得公平，而应该开始将他们视为仇恨者。
So we just got really interested in a very simple question of, does this sense of being privileged make you disobey the rules of the road or the laws of the land.
所以我们对一个非常简单的问题非常感兴趣，这种特权感是否会让你违反交通规则或土地法律。
That's Dacher Keltner.
那是达切尔·凯尔特纳。
He's a professor of psychology at Cal Berkeley, and someone who wonders about the effect inequality has on people's behavior.
他是加州大学伯克利分校的心理学教授，想知道不平等对人们行为的影响。
An experience I had at Berkeley where I was riding my bike up this hill.
我在伯克利的一次经历是我骑自行车上这座山。
And I got to the four-way stop sign, and I was halfway through this four-way stop sign--
我到达了四向停车标志，我已经过了这个四向停车标志的一半——
And this guy in a black Mercedes rolls through the stop sign, is halfway there, is a foot away from me about to take me out, and he's on his cell phone.
这个开着黑色奔驰的家伙驶过停车标志，已经到了一半，离我一英尺远，正准备带我出去，他正在打电话。
And I looked at him.
我看着他。
I was ready to take him on, like, all right, buddy, this is it.
我已经准备好与他较量了，好吧，伙计，就这样了。
And what was most telling about this whole experience was he looked at me as if I was in the wrong and I should get out of his way, you know, even though I had made it through the stop sign first.
整个经历中最能说明问题的是，他看着我，好像我做错了，我应该给他让路，你知道，尽管我先通过了停车标志。
So Dacher and a colleague dreamed up this weird experiment.
因此，达切尔和一位同事想出了这个奇怪的实验。
They hid two Berkeley undergraduates in the bushes near four-way stop signs.
他们将两名伯克利本科生藏在四向停车标志附近的灌木丛中。
The undergrads noted the makes of all cars coming through the intersection, assigned them numbers, one to five, according to their market value.
本科生们记录了通过十字路口的所有汽车的品牌，并根据它们的市场价值为它们分配了数字，从一到五。
A new Mercedes was a five, a Honda was a three, and an old Pacer was a one.
新的梅赛德斯是五，本田是三，旧的步行者是一。
We positioned a Berkeley undergrad by a pedestrian zone, and we make sure they look like they want to cross the street.
我们将伯克利本科生安置在步行区附近，并确保他们看起来想要过马路。
And they're sort of leaning into their pedestrian zone, where it's required by California law to stop.
他们有点倾向于步行区，加州法律要求在那里停车。
It's a game of one-on-one at a California crosswalk-- one car versus one pedestrian.
这是加州人行横道上的一场一对一的游戏——一辆车对抗一名行人。
And 0% of the drivers of poor cars zoomed through the pedestrian zone.
0% 的劣质汽车司机快速穿过步行区。
They all stopped.
他们都停了下来。
And 40-some odd percent-- 45% of the drivers of the fives, the rich cars, blazed through the pedestrian zone, and just say, the rules don't apply to me.
还有 40% 左右——45% 的司机，即豪华汽车，冲过步行区，只是说，这些规则不适用于我。
I'll carry on.
我会继续。
This one study led to a bunch of others that showed basically the same pattern of human behavior.
这项研究引发了一系列其他研究，这些研究显示出基本相同的人类行为模式。
Another experiment, we bring people to the lab.
另一项实验，我们将人们带到实验室。
And as they're leaving, there's this big bowl of candy.
当他们离开时，有一大碗糖果。
And it's like-- and it says on it, "for the children of the Institute of Human Development," on the bowl.
就像——碗上写着“为了人类发展研究所的孩子们”。
And we say, oh, you know, take a candy or two as you're leaving.
我们说，哦，你知道，离开时带上一两块糖果。
And we count up how many candies they take after they leave the experiment.
我们统计他们离开实验后拿走了多少糖果。
Privileged people grab a big handful of candy, compared to poorer people.
与穷人相比，有特权的人会抢到一大把糖果。
So let's turn the conversation to something much more important, which is basketball.
那么让我们把话题转向更重要的事情，那就是篮球。
Most important of all.
最重要的是。
Michael Lewis In the last five or six years, the NBA has embarked on essentially a dramatic reform of refereeing.
迈克尔·刘易斯 (Michael Lewis) 在过去的五六年里，NBA 已经开始对裁判进行重大改革。
At the same time, the friction between the players, and some of the owners, and some of the coaches, and the refs, is going through the roof.
与此同时，球员、一些老板、一些教练和裁判之间的摩擦正在达到顶峰。
Wow.
哇。
Michael Lewis The source of the outrage is the star players.
迈克尔·刘易斯 愤怒的根源在于明星球员。
The people who are getting thrown out of games are Kevin Durant and Steph Curry and James Harden.
被赶出比赛的人是凯文·杜兰特、斯蒂芬·库里和詹姆斯·哈登。
And the Warriors, the most famous team ever to walk on the court, are the chief culprits-- exhibit A in bad behavior towards refs.
勇士队是球场上最著名的球队，他们是罪魁祸首——在裁判面前表现出了恶劣的行为。
So you've got this weird combination.
所以你得到了这个奇怪的组合。
Yeah.
是的。
No, that's fascinating.
不，这很有趣。
I still remember being a Lakers fan-- you know, the great Magic Johnson teams.
我仍然记得我是湖人队的球迷——你知道，伟大的魔术师约翰逊球队。
And watching Larry Bird do his nine-step lay-up.
并观看拉里·伯德的九步上篮。
And I'm like, come on, make the call.
我想，来吧，打电话吧。
For most players of his era, that would have counted as traveling.
对于他那个时代的大多数球员来说，这相当于旅行。
But Larry Bird was like LeBron, the new Mercedes of his day.
但拉里·伯德就像勒布朗一样，是他那个时代的新梅赛德斯。
He played with certain assumptions about the rules and how they applied to him.
他对规则以及这些规则如何适用于他做出了某些假设。
Is profound.
是深刻的。
Michael Lewis --is profound.
迈克尔·刘易斯——意义深远。
And it's more profound than it was in Larry Bird's era.
它比拉里伯德时代更加深刻。
Yeah Larry Bird was a millionaire.
是的，拉里·伯德是个百万富翁。
LeBron James might be a billionaire.
勒布朗·詹姆斯可能是亿万富翁。
And these guys are global franchises.
这些人都是全球特许经营者。
So you got, in a funny way, a microcosm.
所以你以一种有趣的方式得到了一个缩影。
It's an odd microcosm on a basketball court, of what's going on in the larger society.
这是篮球场上一个奇怪的缩影，也是更大社会中正在发生的事情的缩影。
The NBA has set out to ref the games more objectively, more accurately, more fairly.
NBA已着手更加客观、更加准确、更加公平地裁判比赛。
This has enraged the stars and their fans and coaches.
这激怒了球星以及他们的球迷和教练。
You want to know why?
你想知道为什么吗？
Here's what I think.
这是我的想法。
The stars used to get more calls in their favor than they do now, just because they were stars.
过去的明星比现在接到更多的电话，仅仅因为他们是明星。
Objective refs have eliminated some of their privilege.
客观的裁判取消了他们的一些特权。
The more objectivity there is, the less power they have.
越是客观，他们的权力就越小。
And to them, that's outrageous.
对他们来说，这是令人愤慨的。
I think American life just now has at least one thing in common with basketball-- the authority of its referees is under attack.
我认为现在的美国生活和篮球至少有一个共同点——裁判的权威受到攻击。
If people don't trust the refs, one day you wake up in a world that seems not just unfair but actually sort of rigged-- that is, it's incapable of becoming fair because the people who benefit from the unfairness have the power to preserve it.
如果人们不信任裁判，有一天你一觉醒来，就会发现这个世界不仅看起来不公平，而且实际上受到了操纵——也就是说，它无法变得公平，因为从不公平中受益的人有权力维护不公平。
Boom.
繁荣。
Do you flip a switch, and 110 screens go dark?
你按一下开关，110个屏幕就会变黑吗？
All the little small screens you gotta do manually.
所有的小屏幕都需要你手动完成。
The big TVs we got the remote for.
我们为大电视配备了遥控器。
Most nights, Joe Borgia stays at the Replay Center until almost 2:00 in the morning-- just him and a couple of refs staring at tiny slivers of basketball games, trying to impose justice on powerful people who don't want it.
大多数晚上，乔·博吉亚都会在重播中心呆到凌晨 2:00 左右，只有他和几名裁判盯着篮球比赛的一小部分，试图将正义强加给那些不想要正义的有权势的人。
They think I'm nuts.
他们认为我疯了。
I am nuts.
我疯了。
That's another story.
那是另一个故事了。
All refs are nuts.
所有裁判都是疯子。
You gotta be.
你必须是。
You do?
你做？
Joe Borgia You have to be partially off.
乔·博吉亚 你必须部分休息。
It's a 100% negative business.
这是一个100%负面的生意。
100% negative business.
100%负业务。
Joe Borgia That's why my son doesn't want to ref.
乔·博吉亚 这就是为什么我儿子不想当裁判。
Dad, I don't like people yelling at me.
爸爸，我不喜欢别人对我大喊大叫。
One day a young Borgia naturally becomes a referee.
有一天，年轻的博吉亚自然而然地成为了一名裁判。
The next, he doesn't.
接下来，他没有。
One day most people think the refs are more or less fair-- or at any rate, they don't spend a lot of time blaming them for all their problems.
有一天，大多数人认为裁判或多或少是公平的——或者无论如何，他们不会花很多时间将所有问题归咎于裁判。
The next day, they wake up to radical inequality.
第二天，他们一觉醒来，发现了严重的不平等。
The people on top, the elites, think they're special.
处于顶层的人，即精英，认为自己很特别。
They behave as people do when they think they're special.
当他们认为自己很特别时，他们就会像人们一样行事。
Young people emulate them, without even thinking about it.
年轻人不假思索地效仿他们。
They just assume that's how you act if you're a star or want to be.
他们只是假设如果你是明星或想成为明星，那就是你的行为方式。
My first question is-- why, when you hit a three point shot, which you often do, why in the past have you pounded your chest and pointed to the sky?
我的第一个问题是——为什么当你投三分球时，你经常这样做，为什么过去你会拍着胸口指着天空？
I did it because the people on the NBA-- in the NBA did it.
我这么做是因为 NBA 的人们都这么做了。
What do you think they're doing?
你认为他们在做什么？
What does it mean?
这是什么意思？
Do you believe in God?
你相信上帝吗？
Walker No. I knew-- I mean, now I knew what it meant.
沃克 不。我知道——我的意思是，现在我知道这意味着什么了。
But no, I don't.
但不，我不。
So what does it mean?
那么这意味着什么呢？
Walker Basically, it's like, thank you, God.
沃克：基本上，这就像，谢谢你，上帝。
For hitting a three point shot?
为了投三分球？
Do you think God was responsible when Klay Thompson hit a three point shot?
你认为克莱·汤普森命中三分球时上帝有责任吗？
To be honest, if God was watching over everybody whenever they hit a three point shot, I don't think that He would be able to, like, actually make them make the shot.
老实说，如果上帝在每个人投三分球时都在看着他们，我不认为他能够真正让他们投篮。
So do you have anything you'd like to say to the referees of the world before we turn this recording off?
那么在我们关闭这段录音之前，您有什么话想对全世界的裁判说吗？
Thank you.
谢谢。
Ira Glass Michael Lewis.
艾拉·格拉斯·迈克尔·刘易斯。
His new podcast, Against The Rules, covers all kinds of institutions in America where people do not trust the refs anymore.
他的新播客《违反规则》涵盖了人们不再信任裁判的美国各种机构。
It is made by Pushkin Industries.
它是由普希金工业公司制造的。
Find it wherever you get your podcasts.
无论您在何处获取播客，都可以找到它。
Coming up, a teenager grapples with the document that's supposed to enforce fairness above all others.
接下来，一名青少年正在努力处理这份本应确保公平高于一切的文件。
I'm talking about the United States Constitution.
我说的是美国宪法。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "No Fair," stories about people young and old all over our country feeling a sense of injustice, feeling wronged, and not getting satisfaction from the people in charge.
今天的节目《不公平》讲述了全国各地的老老百姓感受到不公正、感到委屈、得不到当权者满意的故事。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, The Fairer Sex.
第二幕，更公平的性。
And for this act, let's go to Broadway.
为了这个表演，我们去百老汇吧。
There's a show right now that starts with this true story.
现在有一档节目就是以这个真实的故事开始的。
When I was 15 years old, I would travel the country giving speeches about the Constitution at American Legion halls for prize money.
当我 15 岁时，我会周游全国，在美国退伍军人协会礼堂发表有关宪法的演讲，以获取奖金。
This was a scheme invented by my mom to help me pay for college.
这是我妈妈发明的一个计划，旨在帮助我支付大学费用。
I would travel to big cities like Denver and Fresno.
我会去丹佛和弗雷斯诺等大城市旅行。
I would give a speech, win a whole bunch of money, and then bring it back to put in my little safety deposit box for later.
我会发表演讲，赢得一大笔钱，然后把它带回来放在我的小保险箱里供以后使用。
This is Heidi Schreck in the show What the Constitution Means to Me.
这是节目《宪法对我意味着什么》中的海蒂·施雷克。
I loved this show.
我喜欢这个节目。
It's totally original in what it's about and in how it tells its story.
它的内容和讲述故事的方式都是完全原创的。
It's very funny.
这很有趣。
It's a very patriotic show in this totally uncorny way.
这是一个非常爱国的节目，以一种完全不俗的方式。
In the show, Heidi Schreck recreates the idealistic speech that she gave at 15 that won her enough money to pay for her whole college education.
在节目中，海蒂·施雷克 (Heidi Schreck) 重现了她 15 岁时发表的理想主义演讲，这场演讲为她赢得了足够的钱来支付整个大学教育的费用。
And then she talks about the Constitution and about her own life.
然后她谈到了宪法和她自己的生活。
Our show today is about fairness, and Heidi Schreck, to be clear, says that her 15-year-old self definitely saw the Constitution as a powerful instrument enforcing fairness.
我们今天的节目是关于公平的，海蒂·施雷克（Heidi Schreck）明确表示，她 15 岁的自己肯定将宪法视为执行公平的有力工具。
I believed it made our country fairer, more equal, more democratic.
我相信它使我们的国家更加公平、更加平等、更加民主。
I believed that wholeheartedly.
我全心全意地相信这一点。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You said that as a kid you had a crush on the Constitution.
你说你小时候就迷恋宪法。
(CHUCKLING) Yes.
（笑）是的。
Ira Glass What does that mean?
艾拉·格拉斯 这是什么意思？
I was really excited by it.
我真的很兴奋。
I was a very idealistic, nerdy young person.
我是一个非常理想主义、书呆子的年轻人。
And researching and reading about the Constitution-- my dad is a history teacher and talked very passionately about the genius of this document and its ability to evolve and to somehow surpass and rectify the flaws of its founders.
研究和阅读宪法——我的父亲是一名历史老师，他非常热情地谈论了这份文件的天才及其发展的能力以及以某种方式超越和纠正其创始人的缺陷的能力。
Like, this idea that there was a document that could be created by flawed people that could be better than the people who made it.
就像这样的想法，即有一个文件可以由有缺陷的人创建，但可能比创建它的人更好。
When you say that I'm reminded of this famous quote from Bill Clinton where he said-- and I think this is such a beautiful quote, too-- where he said, there's nothing that's wrong with America that what's right with America can't fix.
当你说我想起比尔·克林顿的这句名言时，他说——我认为这也是一句非常美丽的名言——他说，美国没有什么问题是美国正确的方法无法解决的。
Yes.
是的。
I mean, Frederick Douglass has the similar quote which is that, like, yes, the Constitution was founded on the great evil compromise of slavery but that it also contained the means by which we could rectify that evil.
我的意思是，弗雷德里克·道格拉斯也说过类似的话，那就是，是的，宪法是建立在奴隶制的伟大邪恶妥协之上的，但它也包含了我们可以纠正这种邪恶的手段。
And so your play is partly about that hopeful feeling that you had about the Constitution when you were a kid.
所以你的戏剧部分是关于你小时候对宪法的那种充满希望的感觉。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass But also how you came to see it once you became an adult, as a deeply flawed document.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 以及当你成年后如何看待它，将其视为一份存在严重缺陷的文件。
You talk in the play about how especially the Constitution and American law really did not address things that affect you and members of your family, especially the women in your family, for just a long time.
你在剧中谈到，特别是宪法和美国法律在很长一段时间内没有解决影响你和你的家庭成员，特别是你家庭中的女性的问题。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Ira Glass And when it did finally get around to addressing women, it was late, and it came to it kind of creakily.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 当它终于开始向女性讲话时，已经晚了，而且它来得有点摇摇欲坠。
Yes, very creakily.
是的，非常嘎吱作响。
Ira Glass And there's a large section of the play where you talk about how to get women to be covered by the Constitution, lawyers and the justices had to kind of jury rig women into having rights using, for example, the Ninth Amendment.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：这部剧有很大一部分内容是关于如何让女性受到宪法的保护，律师和法官必须利用陪审团操纵女性，让她们拥有权利，例如使用第九修正案。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass Can I ask you to just explain what the Ninth Amendment does?
Ira Glass 我可以请你解释一下第九修正案的作用吗？
Sure, sure.
当然，当然。
So the Ninth Amendment, which was my favorite as a kid, says, the enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights.
因此，我小时候最喜欢的第九修正案规定，宪法中列举的某些权利不得被解释为否认或贬低其他权利。
I just want to say for radio, anyone that's listening, that you're just reciting that from memory.
我只想对广播中的任何人说，你只是凭记忆背诵而已。
OK.
好的。
Heidi Schreck Well, it's technically "shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people," meaning that just because a certain right is not explicitly given to you in the Constitution, it doesn't mean you don't have that right.
海蒂·施雷克（Heidi Schreck）：从技术上讲，它“不得被解释为否认或贬低人民保留的其他人”，这意味着仅仅因为宪法没有明确赋予你某种权利，并不意味着你没有这项权利。
This amendment allows for the fact that the founders could not have imagined the future that we're living in now.
这项修正案考虑到了这样一个事实：创始人无法想象我们现在生活的未来。
Well, it's like them admitting it.
好吧，就像他们承认了这一点。
It's like, we can't think through every possible thing in this one document.
就像，我们无法考虑到这份文档中的所有可能的事情。
Right.
正确的。
I also like to think that in 300 years they knew that the world would look very different.
我还喜欢认为，他们知道 300 年后世界将会变得非常不同。
And in the play, though, you say, to actually get this thing to apply to women, Justice William O.
不过，在剧中，你说，要真正让这件事适用于女性，威廉·O·法官 (Justice William O.
Douglas has to come up with a concept which is so strange and so almost poetic, this idea of the penumbra.
道格拉斯必须想出一个非常奇怪又几乎充满诗意的概念，即半影的概念。
Right.
正确的。
What is a penumbra?
什么是半影？
Here I am standing in the light, and there you are sitting in the darkness.
在这里，我站在光明中，而你则坐在黑暗中。
And this space between us, this space right here of partial illumination, this shadowy space right here, this is a penumbra.
我们之间的这个空间，这个部分照明的空间，这个阴影的空间，这是一个半影。
William O.
威廉·O.
Douglas loved this penumbra metaphor and said that you could therefore take this idea that somewhere in the shadows of the Constitution, in this kind of in between shadowy space, are our rights we have not yet named.
道格拉斯喜欢这个半影比喻，并说因此你可以这样认为，在宪法的阴影中的某个地方，在这种阴暗的空间中，是我们尚未命名的权利。
You could use the Ninth Amendment to essentially, like, shine a little light into the dark corners and say, OK, over there.
你可以利用第九修正案本质上，就像，把一点光照射到黑暗的角落，然后说，好吧，就在那里。
And then as you say in the show, the Ninth Amendment combines with the 14th Amendment in a kind of Wonder Twins, power activation moment--
然后，正如你在节目中所说，第九修正案与第十四修正案结合在一起，形成了一种神奇的双胞胎，权力激活时刻——
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass --to decide Roe versus Wade.
艾拉·格拉斯——决定罗伊与韦德。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass But the Ninth Amendment is also the way that birth control gets legalized in the '60s.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 但第九修正案也是 60 年代节育合法化的方式。
And let's hear-- we're going to hear an excerpt now from the play.
让我们听听——我们现在要听该剧的节选。
OK.
好的。
Ira Glass And this is where you talk about how that came about.
Ira Glass 这就是你谈论这是如何发生的地方。
And it begins with you explaining how you and a friend got birth control.
首先你要解释你和一个朋友是如何采取节育措施的。
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass The same year you were doing these contests, when you were 15 you went to Planned Parenthood.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在您参加这些比赛的同一年，您 15 岁时就加入了计划生育协会。
Neither of us were having sex yet, but just we wanted to be on birth control just in case.
我们俩都还没有发生性行为，但我们只是想采取节育措施以防万一。
You know, just in case we were in a hot tub and sperms might happen to attack us.
你知道，以防万一我们在热水浴缸里精子可能会攻击我们。
OK, I mean, you can laugh, but be careful.
好吧，我的意思是，你可以笑，但要小心。
Or, you know, in case of a real attack.
或者，你知道，如果发生真正的攻击。
What I didn't realize at the time is that birth control had only been legal for all women in this country for about 15 years.
当时我没有意识到，节育对于这个国家的所有女性来说都是合法的，时间只有大约 15 年。
I mean, I was 15.
我是说，当时我15岁。
So I thought it had been legal since the dawn of time.
所以我认为它从一开始就是合法的。
But no, no.
但不，不。
In 1965, this incredible woman, Estelle Griswold, got herself arrested for dispensing IUDs to poor women at her Connecticut Planned Parenthood.
1965 年，这位令人难以置信的女性埃斯特尔·格里斯沃尔德 (Estelle Griswold) 因向康涅狄格州计划生育协会的贫困妇女发放宫内节育器而被捕。
She faced a year in prison, took her case all the way to the Supreme Court, and this, this is actually when William O.
她面临着一年的监禁，把她的案子一路打到了最高法院，而这，这实际上是威廉·O.
Douglas first pulled out his big penumbra metaphor.
道格拉斯首先拿出了他的大半影比喻。
This is when he said for the first time that one thing the Constitution surely guarantees is the right to privacy, and that this allows a woman to put in an IUD as long as she is married and as long as her husband says that it is OK.
这是他第一次说宪法肯定保障的一件事是隐私权，这允许女性在已婚且丈夫同意的情况下放置宫内节育器。
This is a very scary moment for William O.
对于 William O 来说，这是一个非常可怕的时刻。
Douglas because nobody understands the Ninth Amendment-- nobody, except for me at 15.
道格拉斯，因为没有人理解第九修正案——没有人理解，除了 15 岁的我。
Justice Scalia said he didn't even remember studying it in law school.
斯卡利亚法官表示，他甚至不记得在法学院学习过该学科。
But they had to dig up this amendment that nobody understands, because there was just no other way to deal with the female body.
但他们不得不挖出这个没人理解的修正案，因为没有其他办法来处理女性身体。
Because they all wanted to make birth control legal.
因为他们都想让节育合法化。
They did.
他们做到了。
They wanted it because-- well, because I found out that William O.
他们想要它是因为——嗯，因为我发现 William O.
Douglas, who was my hero when I was 15, Justice William O.
道格拉斯，我 15 岁时的英雄，威廉·O·道格拉斯法官。
Douglas was 67, and he was having an affair with a 22-year-old college student.
道格拉斯今年 67 岁，他与一名 22 岁的大学生有染。
[GASPING] So I'm thinking-- right?
[喘气] 所以我在想——对吗？
They want to find a way to get the birth control flowing.
他们希望找到一种方法来实现节育。
Actually, Arabella, can you play a snippet of the Supreme Court recording?
事实上，阿拉贝拉，你能播放最高法院录音的片段吗？
This is the actual argument.
这就是实际的论据。
So remember, it's 1965.
所以请记住，现在是 1965 年。
There will not be a woman on this court until Sandra Day O'Connor arrives in 1981.
在 1981 年桑德拉·戴·奥康纳 (Sandra Day O'Connor) 到来之前，法庭上不会有女性。
Here are nine men deciding the fate of birth control.
这里有九个人决定节育的命运。
All of these devices that are covered, that each of them has the potential dual function of acting in a contraceptive capacity and as a prevention of disease?
所有这些设备都涵盖在内，每个设备都具有潜在的双重功能，即避孕和预防疾病？
It's probably only true with respect to some.
这可能只对某些人来说是正确的。
But some get by under the term "feminine hygiene."
但有些人却在“女性卫生”这个词下过得去。
And all this-- [CLEARING THROAT]-- uh-- [CLEARING THROAT]-- uh-- I just don't know about.
而这一切——[清喉咙]——呃——[清喉咙]——呃——我只是不知道。
But-- [CLEARING THROAT]-- uh-- [CLEARING THROAT]-- they are-- they are all sold in Connecticut drugstores on one theory or another.
但是——[清喉咙]——呃——[清喉咙]——它们——它们都在康涅狄格州的药店里以这样或那样的理论出售。
Is there anything on the record to-- [CLEARING THROAT]-- to indicate-- [CLEARING THROAT]-- the standard of birth rate in Connecticut vis-a-vis the states that don't have such laws?
记录中是否有任何内容——[清嗓子]——表明——[清嗓子]——康涅狄格州相对于没有此类法律的州的出生率标准？
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass When Heidi Schreck was publicizing her show, she did this interview with Tony Kushner, the playwright and the Pulitzer prize winner, probably best known for Angels in America.
[笑声] Ira Glass 当海蒂·施雷克 (Heidi Schreck) 宣传她的节目时，她接受了剧作家兼普利策奖获得者托尼·库什纳 (Tony Kushner) 的采访，他最出名的作品可能是《天使在美国》。
And in this interview, they had this interesting exchange.
而在这次采访中，他们进行了这次有趣的交流。
Kushner says to her that he thought that her show was partly about this thing that he has been writing about and thinking about ever since he wrote that movie about Abraham Lincoln a few years ago that Stephen Spielberg directed.
库什纳对她说，他认为她的节目部分是关于这件事的，自从几年前他写了斯蒂芬·斯皮尔伯格执导的关于亚伯拉罕·林肯的电影以来，他一直在写和思考这件事。
Kushner said that in his view, a central question of democracy is that there needs to be some kind of mystical bond holding everybody together.
库什纳说，在他看来，民主的一个核心问题是需要某种神秘的纽带将每个人团结在一起。
Lincoln talked about the mystic chords of memory and very consciously tried to pull everybody together into allegiance for the Union.
林肯谈到了记忆中的神秘和弦，并非常有意识地试图将每个人聚集在一起效忠联邦。
But Kushner said that if you actually interrogate what the thing is that is actually pulling us together, it's really just a stack of paper, right?
但库什纳说，如果你真的询问真正把我们团结在一起的东西是什么，它实际上只是一叠纸，对吗？
It's just an act of faith that we have with each other.
这只是我们彼此之间的一种信仰行为。
And he pointed out that how, of course, everybody knows right now this act of faith, this feeling that we are all in this together and we are one people who can work things out together, that is in such short supply.
他指出，当然，现在每个人都知道这种信仰的行为，这种我们都在一起的感觉，我们是一个可以共同解决问题的人，这是非常短缺的。
And the very idea of teenagers giving speeches about that stack of papers, about the Constitution, and its importance and its values, Kushner said-- I'm quoting here-- "It feels like an ethos of a not very distant and yet somehow very distant past, where people believe in fairness, that the superstructure that we've all sworn allegiance to, the Constitution, is going to create opportunities and possibilities." That really hit me when I read it.
库什纳说，我在这里引用的是，青少年就这一叠文件、宪法及其重要性和价值观发表演讲的想法，“感觉就像是一种不太遥远但不知何故非常遥远的过去的精神，人们相信公平，相信我们都宣誓效忠的上层建筑，即宪法，将创造机会和可能性。”当我读到它的时候，我真的很受触动。
And I asked Heidi Schreck in our interview if she agreed that the America where she gave those speeches when she was 15 seemed very far away.
我在采访中问 Heidi Schreck，她是否同意她 15 岁时发表演讲的美国似乎很遥远。
Well, so this was the '80s, between '86 and '89.
嗯，那是 80 年代，86 到 89 年间。
First of all, I felt-- I mean, I was very liberal in high school.
首先，我觉得——我的意思是，我在高中时非常自由。
You know, I was feminist, liberal.
你知道，我是女权主义者、自由主义者。
Like, my speeches reflected those values, and I remember giving a speech about the Second Amendment, which I was arguing for gun control, because there had just been a shooting in California at a McDonald's.
就像，我的演讲反映了这些价值观，我记得发表过一篇关于第二修正案的演讲，我主张枪支管制，因为加利福尼亚州的一家麦当劳刚刚发生了一起枪击事件。
And I was arguing for strict gun control laws in front of a room of men who, you know, all owned guns and went hunting.
我在一屋子人面前主张严格的枪支管制法，你知道，这些人都拥有枪支并去打猎。
And I won that contest.
我赢得了那场比赛。
And I always felt a sense that these men I was, you know, giving the speeches for supported my right to have a different view than they did, supported my right as an American to express myself, believed it was important in a democracy that we have these conversations together.
我总有一种感觉，你知道，我发表演讲的这些人支持我拥有与他们不同的观点的权利，支持我作为美国人表达自己的权利，相信在民主国家中我们一起进行这些对话是很重要的。
So that felt different to me.
所以这对我来说感觉不一样。
I will also say, this was, like, the very beginning of Rush Limbaugh, you know, and then Fox News.
我还要说，这就像拉什·林博的开始，你知道，然后是福克斯新闻。
And those men who gave you award money after you argued against the--
那些在你反对后给你奖金的人——
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Ira Glass --the Second Amendment, you think that that would be-- it might be harder today.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）——第二修正案，你认为那会——今天可能会更困难。
I think so.
我想是的。
Although I will say, I looked on YouTube at other American Legion speeches.
虽然我会说，我在 YouTube 上看过其他美国军团的演讲。
And they still seem to be-- like, the winners often seem to be quite liberal.
他们似乎仍然——就像，胜利者往往看起来相当自由。
So at least maybe in the space of the American Legion, there's still room for this kind of dialogue.
所以至少在美国军团的空间里，这种对话仍然有空间。
Heidi Schreck.
海蒂·施雷克。
If you're visiting New York City, her show What the Constitution Means to Me, is running through July on Broadway.
如果您正在访问纽约市，她的节目《宪法对我意味着什么》将在百老汇上演至七月。
A little Constitutional footnote here-- after we recorded that interview, I learned that the 14th and Ninth Amendments did not really combine Wonder Twins style to decide Roe versus Wade.
这里有一点宪法脚注——在我们录制那次采访之后，我了解到第十四条和第九条修正案并没有真正结合神奇双胞胎的风格来决定罗伊与韦德。
Technically, the 14th decided Roe, with the Ninth justifying an important precedent that's cited in the case.
从技术上讲，第 14 号法院判决了罗伊案，而第 9 号法院则证明了该案中引用的一个重要先例的合理性。
[MUSIC - "THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND" BY SHARON JONES AND THE DAP-KINGS]
[音乐 - SHARON JONES 和 DAP-KINGS 的“这片土地是你的土地”]
Well, our program was produced today by Lina Misitzis and Ben Calhoun.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Lina Misitzis 和 Ben Calhoun 制作的。
The people who put our show together includes Aviva DeKornfeld, Jarrett Floyd, Damien Graef, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Zoe Oliver-Grey, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Semien, Louis Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
制作我们节目的人员包括 Aviva DeKornfeld、Jarrett Floyd、Damien Graef、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Zoe Oliver-Grey、Nadia Reiman、Robyn Semien、Louis Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的总编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks to David Jacob Weisberg, Nicole Capatasto, Matt Ross, Sarah Sgro, Lawrence Tribe, Sara Holdren and New York Magazine, Krys Jensen and everyone at the South Mountain YMCA where we set up the tattle-phone, Michael Radolinksy and the folks at Fete-phone, who made the phone that we used to record the kids' tattles.
特别感谢 David Jacob Weisberg、Nicole Capatasto、Matt Ross、Sarah Sgro、Lawrence Tribe、Sara Holdren 和《纽约杂志》、Krys Jensen 以及南山 YMCA 的所有人（我们在那里设置了闲话电话）、Michael Radolinksy 和 Fete-phone 的工作人员，他们制作了我们用来记录孩子们闲话的电话。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 shows, or download the archive using the This American Life app.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中收听我们的 600 多个节目的存档，或使用 This American Life 应用程序下载存档。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he said this thing the other day that is a perfect illustration why you should not combine micro-dosing with babysitting.
你知道，他前几天说过这句话，这完美地说明了为什么你不应该将微剂量与保姆结合起来。
Uh, our baby turned into a ducky, and I don't know how it turn into a ducky and turn back to a baby.
呃，我们的宝宝变成了小鸭子，我不知道它是怎么变成小鸭子又变回宝宝的。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。