671: Anything Can Be Anything - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #671 | March 29, 2019 671: Anything Can Be Anything Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 671 集 | 2019 年 3 月 29 日 671：一切皆有可能 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Well, it's been a week of gloating.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 嗯，这是幸灾乐祸的一周。
Some very emphatic gloating and I-told-you-sos, after Robert Mueller delivered his report saying that he could not establish collusion between the president and the Russians.
在罗伯特·穆勒（Robert Mueller）发表报告称他无法确定总统与俄罗斯之间存在勾结之后，一些人表现出非常强烈的幸灾乐祸和“我告诉过你了”的态度。
As you've probably seen, the president and his supporters have been saying that's right.
正如您可能已经看到的，总统和他的支持者一直在说这是正确的。
No conspiracy with Russia.
与俄罗斯没有阴谋。
In fact, the real conspiracy is one where the Democrats and the media hyped this Russian stuff for two years.
事实上，真正的阴谋是民主党和媒体两年来大肆宣传俄罗斯的东西。
They're gleefully circulating videos of people like this guy--
他们兴高采烈地传播像这个人这样的人的视频——
You know, you have to take seriously the possibility that--
你知道，你必须认真对待这种可能性——
--New York Magazine writer Jonathan Chait.
——《纽约杂志》作家乔纳森·柴特。
He went onto MSNBC last year to connect the dots about whether the president has basically been a secret Russian operative all the way back since 1987.
去年，他在 MSNBC 上将总统是否基本上自 1987 年以来一直是俄罗斯秘密特工这一点联系起来。
That is probably not true.
这可能不是真的。
But it might be that 1987 is when he went to Moscow.
但他去莫斯科的时间可能是1987年。
And he's feted by the Russians and tours Moscow.
他受到俄罗斯人的款待并游览了莫斯科。
And then he comes back.
然后他回来了。
Then he starts talking about running for president for the first time.
然后他开始谈论第一次竞选总统。
And then he starts talking for the first time about how our allies are a bunch of freeloaders, and we should kick them to the curb.
然后他第一次开始谈论我们的盟友是一群贪图便宜的人，我们应该把他们踢到路边。
It's more or less a Fox News, Republican Party talking point now that the fact that there even was a Mueller investigation, the fact that it even occurred, was a result of a deep-state, media-led, Obama-Hillary-FBI conspiracy.
现在，这或多或少已成为福克斯新闻和共和党的一个话题：穆勒调查的事实，甚至发生的事实，都是深层政府、媒体主导的奥巴马、希拉里和联邦调查局阴谋的结果。
Here's how President Trump described it this week to Sean Hannity.
以下是特朗普总统本周向肖恩·汉尼蒂描述的情况。
You look at, how did this start?
你看，这是怎么开始的？
How did it start?
是怎么开始的？
You had dirty cops.
你们有肮脏的警察。
You had people that are bad FBI folks.
有些人是联邦调查局的坏人。
I know so many.
我认识这么多。
They're incredible people.
他们是令人难以置信的人。
But at the top, they were not clean, to put it mildly.
但温和地说，在高层，他们并不干净。
And then the money that was spent-- the millions and millions on the phony dossier, and paid for by Hillary Clinton, and paid for by the Democrats at the DNC-- it's hard to believe.
然后所花的钱——数百万美元用于虚假档案，由希拉里·克林顿支付，由民主党全国委员会的民主党支付——令人难以置信。
If you wrote this as a novel, nobody would buy it.
如果你把它写成小说，没有人会买。
It would be a failure, because it would be too unbelievable.
这将是一个失败，因为这太令人难以置信了。
Of course, it's no surprise that the president has spun the Mueller report into a conspiracy theory of his own, because he's peddled lots of conspiracy theories, from the idea that George Soros is funding the caravans, all the way back to birtherism.
当然，总统将穆勒报告变成了他自己的阴谋论，这并不奇怪，因为他兜售了很多阴谋论，从乔治·索罗斯资助大篷车的想法，一直到出生论。
Joe Uscinski, a professor at the University of Miami who studies conspiracy theories and the people who believe them, says, this is actually an unusual thing about today.
迈阿密大学教授乔·乌辛斯基（Joe Uscinski）研究阴谋论和相信阴谋论的人，他说，这在今天实际上是一件不寻常的事情。
It used to be people with no power in this country who were the ones pushing conspiracy theories.
过去，推动阴谋论的都是这个国家没有权力的人。
Now it's the President of the United States doing it all the time.
现在是美国总统一直在这样做。
Uscinski says that from the start, it seems like Donald Trump identified conspiracy-minded voters as a possible constituency.
乌辛斯基说，从一开始，唐纳德·特朗普似乎就将有阴谋论的选民视为可能的选区。
So when he got into the Republican primary, there was 25 other candidates vying for Republican votes.
因此，当他参加共和党初选时，还有其他 25 名候选人争夺共和党选票。
He went after the underserved market of Republicans, which were conspiracy-minded Republicans.
他瞄准了服务不足的共和党市场，这些共和党人都是有阴谋论的人。
But he keeps them motivated.
但他让他们保持动力。
And he's got to keep going with this.
他必须继续这样做。
He's dancing with the one who brought him to the prom.
他正在和带他参加舞会的人一起跳舞。
In fact, one of my coworkers, Zoe Chace, went to a couple of Trump rallies this fall in Chattanooga, Tennessee and Fort Wayne, Indiana.
事实上，我的一位同事佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）今年秋天参加了在田纳西州查塔努加和印第安纳州韦恩堡举行的几场特朗普集会。
And she found lots of people who believed in the deep state and in other conspiracies.
她发现很多人相信深层政府和其他阴谋。
Zoe?
佐伊？
So basically, I'd ask people a general and vague question, like, do you trust the government?
所以基本上，我会问人们一个笼统而模糊的问题，比如，你相信政府吗？
And then almost everyone I talked to, all these conspiracy theories would come spilling out, like about George Soros.
然后，几乎所有与我交谈过的人，所有这些阴谋论都会涌出来，比如关于乔治·索罗斯的阴谋论。
--a Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, you know?
——幕后的绿野仙踪，你知道吗？
People like that, they're behind the scenes, pushing this agenda.
像这样的人，他们在幕后推动这一议程。
The president tweeted this theory that Soros pays protesters.
总统在推特上发布了索罗斯向抗议者付钱的理论。
There's no evidence of that.
没有证据表明这一点。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
You can go on the website, and he'll pay you $17.
你可以登录网站，他会付给你 17 美元。
I wanted to ask these people holding signs, where do they get their check?
我想问一下这些举着牌子的人，他们的支票是从哪里来的？
All these people, they're getting paid.
所有这些人，他们都得到报酬。
What if-- what if they're getting paid?
如果——如果他们得到报酬怎么办？
Old classics came up, like the Clintons are serial murderers.
古老的经典出现了，比如克林顿夫妇是连环杀人犯。
And now, this may be conspiracy theorist type stuff.
现在，这可能是阴谋论者类型的东西。
But how many bodyguards that Clinton had in Arkansas are still alive?
但克林顿在阿肯色州的保镖还有多少人还活着呢？
Vince Foster.
文斯·福斯特.
Vince Foster?
文斯·福斯特？
Man Supposed to have been killed in the park.
男子疑似在公园内被杀。
I mean, he committed suicide.
我的意思是，他自杀了。
But you don't think so?
但你不这么认为吗？
Pizzagate came up.
披萨门出现了。
Woman 2 I don't believe there's, like, a basement in comet Ping Pong.
女人 2 我不相信乒乓彗星上有地下室。
But I do believe that there was a hacker that actually hacked into the system.
但我确实相信确实有一名黑客侵入了系统。
And I think that the shooter going in was a false flag, because he shot one bullet right through the hard drive, destroying the evidence, so to speak.
我认为枪手闯入的行为是假旗，因为他将一颗子弹直接射穿了硬盘，可以这么说，摧毁了证据。
So I think--
所以我认为——
I got this book recommendation that made a big impression on me from Paula.
保拉向我推荐了这本书，给我留下了深刻的印象。
She and her partner, Steve, drove three hours from Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.
她和她的伴侣史蒂夫从田纳西州皮金福奇开车三个小时到达。
Oh, I can't remember.
哦，我不记得了。
Paula Baby, look for it on my--
宝拉宝贝，在我的——
It's an older book.
这是一本较旧的书。
Paula --Amazon.
宝拉——亚马逊。
It's an old, old book.
这是一本很旧很旧的书。
But it's about how they've been trying to do this for many years in America.
但这是关于他们在美国多年来如何努力做到这一点的。
Yes.
是的。
They've been-- Zoe Chace Who's they, though?
他们是—— Zoe Chace 但他们是谁？
The Illuminati, whatever you want to call them-- the World Order.
光明会，不管你怎么称呼他们——世界秩序。
The World Order?
世界秩序？
Zoe Chace Basically, the idea that a cabal of rich guys is trying to take over the world and create one world government-- like one currency, one army, no national borders.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 基本上，这个想法是一群富人试图接管世界并创建一个世界政府 - 就像一种货币，一支军队，没有国界。
And these rich guys-- are these Jews, not to name a specific ethnic group?
这些有钱人——不说是某个特定种族群体的话，他们是犹太人吗？
Not necessarily.
未必。
It's not necessarily the Jews.
不一定是犹太人。
This is an old theory.
这是一个古老的理论。
Its roots are totally anti-Semitic.
它的根源完全是反犹太主义的。
But to be honest, the people I talked to, I asked them about that.
但说实话，我向与我交谈过的人询问了这一点。
It just seemed like it wasn't about Jews anymore.
看起来这已经不再是关于犹太人的了。
It was just elites.
那只是精英。
OK, then.
好吧，那么。
Zoe Chace Eventually, Paula finds the name of the book.
佐伊·切斯 最终，宝拉找到了这本书的名字。
It's The Unseen Hand,
这是看不见的手，
There you go.
就这样吧。
You read that, girl.
你读到了，女孩。
And I haven't read all of it.
而且我还没有读完全部内容。
But I have a friend that's read it from front to back.
但我有一个朋友从头到尾读过这本书。
But it's like really well read in it.
但这就像读得很好。
And we talked about the Illuminati and all of these so-called higher-ups that think that they are over all of us.
我们谈到了光明会和所有这些自认为凌驾于我们所有人之上的所谓高层。
I got news for them--
我得到了他们的消息——
Did you read the book?
你读过书吗？
Zoe Chace I tried.
佐伊·切斯 我试过了。
It's really hard to follow the book.
跟上书本真的很难。
I got through like 100 pages.
我读了大约100页。
I did talk to their friend who's read the whole thing, Jim.
我确实和他们的朋友吉姆谈过，他读过整本书。
And his experience illustrates that thing the professor, Uscinski, said at the beginning of this about how Donald Trump mobilized conspiracy theorists during the campaign.
他的经历说明了乌辛斯基教授在本文开头所说的关于唐纳德·特朗普在竞选期间如何动员阴谋论者的事情。
Hm.
嗯。
Zoe Chace Like, take Jim.
佐伊·切斯 就像，以吉姆为例。
He hadn't voted for a while before 2016, because he believed both parties were basically working together for a secret cabal of elites.
2016 年之前，他已经有一段时间没有投票了，因为他相信两党基本上是在为一个秘密精英集团合作。
Yeah, the New World Order-- like, just rich guys, the Bilderberg group, George Soros, the Bush dynasty, the Clinton dynasty-- like, that they were all--
是的，新世界秩序——比如，只是富人、彼尔德伯格集团、乔治·索罗斯、布什王朝、克林顿王朝——比如，他们都是——
All working together?
大家一起工作吗？
Zoe Chace --to push this one world government, New World Order agenda in secret.
佐伊·查斯——秘密推动这一世界政府的新世界秩序议程。
OK.
好的。
Zoe Chace And Jim believes Donald Trump ran for president in order to stop them.
佐伊·切斯和吉姆相信唐纳德·特朗普竞选总统是为了阻止他们。
I didn't have to read between the lines of what he was saying.
我不必去读他所说的字里行间。
He was openly saying, I'm not a globalist.
他公开表示，我不是全球主义者。
I'm America first.
我首先是美国。
And see?
看到了吗？
Unless you know a lot of the stuff I know, most-- a lot of what he said would just go, pshew.
除非你知道我所知道的很多东西，否则他说的很多东西都会消失，噗。
And I knew he knew.
我知道他知道。
I knew he knew about what he said.
我知道他知道他说的话。
He knew who they were and what they were up to.
他知道他们是谁，也知道他们在做什么。
Talking to Jim, it was like seeing Trump all new.
与吉姆交谈，就像看到特朗普焕然一新一样。
Huh.
呵呵。
Zoe Chace Like, seeing him through Jim's eyes, seriously, everything kind of lined up for me.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 就像，通过吉姆的眼睛看到他，说真的，一切都为我安排好了。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Zoe Chace So no borders-- Trump wants to build a border wall, right?
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 那么没有边界——特朗普想修建边境墙，对吧？
Because the New World Order wants to erase all the borders.
因为世界新秩序想要消除所有边界。
Trump wants to blow up all the trade deals.
特朗普想要毁掉所有贸易协议。
Like, trade deals lead to, you know, one world currency.
就像，贸易协议会导致一种世界货币。
Right.
正确的。
They're breaking down trade borders between nations.
他们正在打破国家之间的贸易边界。
Yes it's another kind of erasing-the-barriers thing.
是的，这是另一种消除障碍的事情。
Trump wants to blow up NATO.
特朗普想要炸毁北约。
You can kind of think of that as one world army with these different countries coming together.
你可以将其视为一支世界军队，这些不同的国家聚集在一起。
The NATO military, OK.
北约军队，好的。
Zoe Chace Right, the NATO alliance.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 右，北约联盟。
Trump kind of alienates our allies, doesn't like to talk to Europe, because Europe-- that's the European Union.
特朗普有点疏远我们的盟友，不喜欢与欧洲交谈，因为欧洲——那就是欧盟。
The European Union is the first step towards a global union, one big state.
欧盟是迈向全球联盟、一个大国的第一步。
Oh, where all-- right, we're all one big country.
哦，好吧，我们都是一个大国。
Yeah, one world government.
是的，同一个世界政府。
And if you listen to Trump, it does sound like he believes in a cabal of elites behind the scenes, like Soros; obviously, Hillary Clinton; lately, the FBI.
如果你听特朗普的话，听起来他确实相信幕后有一群精英，比如索罗斯；显然，希拉里·克林顿；最近，联邦调查局。
Right.
正确的。
Zoe Chace All the dots line up so neatly if you just think of them as part of Trump's battle against the New World Order.
佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）：如果你把所有的点都视为特朗普对抗新世界秩序的斗争的一部分，那么所有的点都排列得如此整齐。
And do you think Jim is right that the president sees it this way?
你认为吉姆总统的这种看法是对的吗？
No. But you can see how Jim would draw these conclusions.
不。但是你可以看到吉姆是如何得出这些结论的。
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Well, today on our program, in this moment, when conspiracy theories seem to be right in the center of mainstream political everything-- like, for years, there was this idea that the president conspired with the Russians.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，此时此刻，阴谋论似乎正处于主流政治一切的中心——就像多年来，一直有这样的想法：总统与俄罗斯人密谋。
Now, there's this idea that the Democrats conspired to create a phony investigation.
现在，有人认为民主党密谋进行虚假调查。
When are we supposed to be connecting the dots?
我们什么时候应该把这些点连接起来？
When are we not supposed to be connecting the dots?
我们什么时候不应该把这些点联系起来？
Because, friends, there are a lot of dots.
因为，朋友们，有很多点。
And they are so close together.
而且他们靠得很近。
And we want to connect them, because we want something to explain the world that we're in.
我们想要将它们联系起来，因为我们想要一些东西来解释我们所处的世界。
Today on our program, we have stories of people struggling with whether they should be connecting the dots or not, and as you might expect, coming to very different conclusions.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们讲述了人们在是否应该将这些点联系起来的问题上苦苦挣扎的故事，正如你所预料的那样，他们得出了截然不同的结论。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Show-Me State of Mind.
第一幕，展示心态。
So many people who believe in conspiracy theories, you know they're talking about secretive groups that are basically far away-- rich and powerful people they're never going to run into.
很多人相信阴谋论，你知道他们谈论的是基本上很远的秘密团体——他们永远不会遇到有钱有势的人。
But what about when the conspiracy looks like it's happening all around you-- like, has an impact on your actual city, on your actual neighborhood?
但是，当阴谋看起来就像发生在你周围时——比如，对你的实际城市、你的实际社区产生影响时，该怎么办？
And you're worried that you could be its next victim.
你担心自己可能成为下一个受害者。
New Yorker writer Jelani Cobb heard about a conspiracy theory that is more along those lines.
《纽约客》作家杰拉尼·科布听说过一种与此类似的阴谋论。
It's been more than four years now since Michael Brown was shot by a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, outside St. Louis.
迈克尔·布朗在密苏里州圣路易斯郊外的弗格森被警察枪杀已经过去四年多了。
You probably know the basic facts of the case.
您可能知道案件的基本事实。
He was 18, black, unarmed.
他当时 18 岁，黑人，手无寸铁。
The officer who shot him, Darren Wilson, is white.
开枪射杀他的警官达伦·威尔逊 (Darren Wilson) 是白人。
Of course, the shooting and a grand jury's decision not to indict Officer Wilson led to waves of chaotic protests in Ferguson-- tear gas, arrests, fires, looting.
当然，枪击事件和大陪审团决定不起诉威尔逊警官，导致弗格森发生了一波又一波的混乱抗议活动——催泪瓦斯、逮捕、纵火、抢劫。
It was the first time you heard the chant, hands up, don't shoot.
这是你第一次听到这样的口号：举起手来，不要开枪。
But here's something you might not know.
但这里有一些你可能不知道的事情。
In the five years since Michael Brown's death, about a half dozen people connected to the shooting and its aftermath have themselves turned up dead, including high-profile protesters and activists.
在迈克尔·布朗去世后的五年里，大约有六名与枪击事件及其后果有关的人被发现死亡，其中包括备受瞩目的抗议者和活动人士。
And in at least a few cases, the circumstances under which they've died have been questionable, if not eerie, which has led to the belief that those deaths are part of a larger, coordinated effort-- in short, a conspiracy.
至少在一些案例中，他们的死亡情况即使不令人毛骨悚然，也是值得怀疑的，这让人们相信这些死亡是一场更大的、协调一致的行动的一部分——简而言之，是一场阴谋。
I had already visited Ferguson about a half dozen times, met a lot of people, and wrote several articles.
我已经拜访过弗格森六次，见过很多人，写过几篇文章。
But that was three years ago.
但那是三年前的事了。
I decided to go back and ask some of them whether they believed in the conspiracy.
我决定回去问问他们中的一些人是否相信这个阴谋。
I was interested in who did, and who didn't, and why.
我感兴趣的是谁做了，谁没有，以及为什么。
One place that I spent a lot of time was Cathy's Kitchen-- sort of a hub for reporters, as it was only about 100 feet from the police department and a few miles down the road from where the shooting happened.
我花了很多时间的一个地方是凯茜厨房——有点像记者的中心，因为它距离警察局只有大约 100 英尺，距离枪击事件发生地只有几英里。
One of the co-owners, Jerome Jenkins, was wiping down the counter when I walked in.
当我走进去时，其中一位合伙人杰罗姆·詹金斯 (Jerome Jenkins) 正在擦拭柜台。
Hey, how you been?
嘿，你过得怎么样？
Jelani Cobb How you doing?
杰拉尼·科布 你好吗？
How you doing?
你好吗？
You been doing good?
你过得好吗？
Jelani Cobb Yeah, just I didn't know if you were gonna remember me.
Jelani Cobb 是的，只是我不知道你是否会记得我。
You came at a never-forgetful time in our lives, Jerome said.
杰罗姆说，你在我们生命中一个永远不会忘记的时刻到来。
Yeah, that's true.
是的，确实如此。
Just then, his wife, the Cathy in Cathy's Kitchen, came over.
就在这时，他的妻子，也就是凯茜厨房里的凯茜走了过来。
There's Miss Cathy.
那里有凯茜小姐。
Jelani Cobb How are you doing?
杰拉尼·科布 你好吗？
How you doing?
你好吗？
Jelani Cobb How are you doing?
杰拉尼·科布 你好吗？
Good to see you.
很高兴见到你。
Good, good.
好，好。
Cathy Pleasure, pleasure.
凯茜 高兴，高兴。
How are you?
你好吗？
The place has a vintage feel-- a long bar with leather and chrome stools and a checkerboard tile pattern on the floor.
这个地方有一种复古的感觉——一个长吧台，配有皮革和镀铬凳子，地板上有棋盘格瓷砖图案。
It didn't surprise me when Jerome said that customers sometimes discuss whether they think the deaths are connected.
当杰罗姆说顾客有时会讨论他们认为这些死亡是否有关联时，我并不感到惊讶。
He suspects they are.
他怀疑他们是。
It's hard to say it's a coincidence.
很难说这是巧合。
And it doesn't seem like there's a big investigation into it.
而且似乎没有对此进行大规模调查。
At this point, to me, it seems like, you know, raised eyebrows.
在这一点上，对我来说，这似乎引起了人们的注意。
And--
还有——
Raised eyebrows.
扬起了眉毛。
Almost all the people we talked to who gave credence to the conspiracy used that phrase.
几乎所有我们采访过的相信这一阴谋的人都使用了这句话。
It's perfect, because it doesn't commit you to tinfoil-hat-level conspiracy.
它是完美的，因为它不会让你陷入锡箔帽级别的阴谋。
But it does point you in the direction of something being afoot.
但它确实为你指明了正在进行的事情的方向。
You got a suicide.
你自杀了。
You got a burning in a car.
你在车里被烧伤了。
You got a homicide.
你犯了杀人案。
You have all these strange things coming from one thing that all these people have in common, you know?
所有这些奇怪的事情都来自所有这些人的共同点，你知道吗？
You know, they're all people that are activists, that are standing up, you know, trying to say, hey, we want to make this better.
你知道，他们都是积极分子，你知道，他们站起来，试图说，嘿，我们想让事情变得更好。
We want this.
我们想要这个。
And they all are dying in some weird form.
他们都以某种奇怪的形式死去。
Just doesn't add up.
只是不合算。
Jerome Jenkins To me--
杰罗姆·詹金斯 对我来说——
But do you think, is it something that's coordinated?
但你认为这是协调的吗？
Is it the fact that we have, like, homicide rates that are terrible in many of the cities?
是因为我们许多城市的凶杀率都非常高吗？
Like, how do we distinguish between those two?
比如，我们如何区分这两者？
I understand our community.
我了解我们的社区。
I understand our suicide, homicide.
我理解我们的自杀、他杀。
I understand those rates.
我了解这些费率。
But let's look at it a different way.
但让我们换个角度来看。
If five African-Americans die in the NBA, and they all have one thing in common, they all play for the Lakers, it would be an investigation.
如果五名非裔美国人在 NBA 去世，而他们都有一个共同点，那就是都为湖人队效力，那么这将是一项调查。
It would be, because you had this one thing in common, we would all go, it's too many.
因为你们有这一点共同点，所以我们都会去，太多了。
And these are people-- don't live that far from each other.
这些都是人——彼此住得并不远。
That's a large number.
这是一个很大的数字。
So that's what makes it enter into the world of--
这就是让它进入这个世界的原因——
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Here are the six deaths that raise suspicions in and around Ferguson.
以下是在弗格森及其周围引起怀疑的六起死亡事件。
In September of 2016, Darren Seals, a very visible activist in Ferguson, was found shot in the head inside a burning vehicle.
2016 年 9 月，弗格森市一位非常引人注目的活动人士达伦·西尔斯 (Darren Seals) 被发现在一辆燃烧的车辆内头部中弹。
He was 29, outspoken, and had mentioned he was being harassed by police in the months before his death.
他 29 岁，直言不讳，并提到他在去世前几个月受到警察的骚扰。
Pictures from the murder scene went up on Twitter shortly afterward, apparently showing that after police investigated, there were still bullet casings littering the parking lot.
不久之后，谋杀现场的照片就在推特上疯传，显然显示警方调查后，停车场仍散落着弹壳。
The suggestion was that police were incompetent and possibly even complicit in Seals' death.
有人认为警方无能，甚至可能是海豹突击队死亡的同谋。
One person replied, "You better believe those KKKops were involved." The word "KKKops" is spelled with three Ks.
一个人回答说：“你最好相信那些 KKKops 参与其中。” “KKKops”一词由三个 K 拼写而成。
A spokesman for the St. Louis County Police Department says all evidence pertinent to the case was processed.
圣路易斯县警察局发言人表示，与此案相关的所有证据均已处理。
Two years earlier, Deandre Joshua, 20 years old, was reportedly found the same way, inside a burnt-out vehicle, with a gunshot wound to the head.
据报道，两年前，20 岁的德安德烈·约书亚 (Deandre Joshua) 也以同样的方式被发现，在一辆烧毁的汽车内，头部中枪。
Joshua was friends with someone who'd witnessed Michael Brown's shooting.
约书亚和目睹迈克尔·布朗枪击事件的人是朋友。
And his death is also often linked to the death of Shawn Gray, a 23-year-old who disappeared that same week and was later found drowned in a branch of the Mississippi River.
他的死也常常与 23 岁的肖恩·格雷 (Shawn Gray) 的死亡有关，肖恩·格雷于同一周失踪，后来被发现淹死在密西西比河的一条支流中。
The rumor was that they'd both been killed for testifying before the grand jury in Michael Brown's case.
有传言说，他们都因在迈克尔·布朗案件的大陪审团面前作证而被杀。
But the list of grand jury witnesses has never been released.
但大陪审团证人名单从未公布。
And with both men, their friends and family insist that they had nothing to do with the case.
对于这两名男子，他们的朋友和家人坚称他们与此案无关。
The county prosecutor confirmed that Joshua had not been a witness.
县检察官证实约书亚不是证人。
And then there's Edward Crawford, possibly the most visible person associated with the protests.
然后是爱德华·克劳福德（Edward Crawford），他可能是与抗议活动相关的最引人注目的人物。
You may have seen a famous photo of him wearing an American flag t-shirt and hurling a tear gas canister back in the direction of police.
您可能看过一张著名的照片，照片中他穿着美国国旗 T 恤，向警察方向投掷催泪瓦斯罐。
In 2017, he died from a gunshot wound while sitting in a vehicle with two women, one of whom was his sister.
2017年，他与两名女性坐在车内，其中一名是他的妹妹，他因枪伤身亡。
Police concluded it was a suicide.
警方断定这是自杀。
Crawford's father thinks it was an accident.
克劳福德的父亲认为这是一次意外。
Crawford was 27.
克劳福德27岁。
The most recent death that's gotten a lot of attention is that of Danye Jones.
最近引起广泛关注的死亡事件是丹耶·琼斯的死亡。
Last year, Jones was found hanging from a tree in his backyard.
去年，琼斯被发现吊死在自家后院的一棵树上。
He was 24.
那年他24岁。
Police have investigated Jones' death as a suicide, too.
警方也将琼斯的死亡调查为自杀。
But Danye's mother, Melissa McKinnies, had been prominent in organizing the protests.
但丹耶的母亲梅丽莎·麦金尼斯在组织抗议活动中发挥了重要作用。
She believes he was lynched to send her a message.
她相信他是为了给她发信息而被私刑处死的。
She says she found his packed bag nearby, suggesting he was going somewhere with someone he trusted.
她说她在附近发现了他收拾好的行李，这表明他正和他信任的人一起去某个地方。
Also, she said the sheet he was hanging from didn't come from the house.
此外，她还说他身上挂的床单不是来自这所房子的。
And he didn't know how to tie those particular knots.
他不知道如何打这些特殊的结。
The deaths have become something of a set piece, not simply in the minds of people who live in the area, but in the media as well.
这些死亡事件已经成为一种既定的事件，不仅在该地区居民的心中，而且在媒体上也是如此。
You'll see headlines like "Ferguson, Missouri Activists Are Dying, And It's Time to Ask Questions" and "Are Ferguson Protesters Being Killed?"
您会看到诸如“密苏里州弗格森活动人士正在死去，是时候提出问题了”和“弗格森抗议者被杀了吗？”之类的头条新闻。
People in those articles and in our interviews and online have pondered all kinds of possible culprits, from white supremacists, to local and federal law enforcement, to armed militia members who were seen standing on the tops of buildings during the protests.
这些文章、我们的采访和网上的人们思考了各种可能的罪魁祸首，从白人至上主义者到地方和联邦执法部门，再到抗议期间站在建筑物顶部的武装民兵成员。
The articles didn't come to any conclusions or investigate the deaths.
这些文章没有得出任何结论或调查死亡事件。
And you're not going to hear me do that either.
你也不会听到我这样做。
But I was interested in the narrative that had attached itself to those deaths and what it could tell me about how people were processing what was happening around them.
但我感兴趣的是与这些死亡相关的叙述，以及它能告诉我人们如何处理周围发生的事情。
I talked with five people who believed the conspiracy to some degree, including Jerome and Cathy Jenkins at the restaurant.
我与五个在某种程度上相信这一阴谋的人进行了交谈，其中包括餐厅的杰罗姆和凯茜·詹金斯。
And again, nobody I talked to went full "NASA faked the moon landing" conspiratorial.
再说一次，与我交谈过的人中没有人充满“美国宇航局伪造登月”阴谋论。
But what you did get were clusters of suspicion, brushfires of doubt about the official narratives of what was happening around them.
但你得到的却是一连串的怀疑，对周围发生的事情的官方叙述的怀疑。
The conspiracy wasn't present in the words they spoke.
他们所说的话中并没有出现阴谋。
It was tucked into the ellipses between them.
它被塞进了它们之间的椭圆中。
The sixth thing that tends to come up in these discussions is Bassem Masri.
这些讨论中经常出现的第六件事是巴塞姆·马斯里 (Bassem Masri)。
He was a Palestinian-American activist and close to many of the organizers in Ferguson.
他是一名巴勒斯坦裔美国活动家，与弗格森的许多组织者关系密切。
He died of an apparent heart attack aboard a city bus.
他在一辆城市公交车上死于明显的心脏病。
A 31 year old dying of a heart attack is the kind of thing that might raise suspicions, and yes, eyebrows, even outside the context of other people dying in quick succession, except we got a copy of the medical examiner's report.
一名 31 岁的人死于心脏病可能会引起怀疑，是的，令人惊讶，即使在其他人快速连续死亡的情况下也是如此，除非我们得到了法医报告的副本。
And while, yes, Masri was in cardiac arrest when he got to the hospital, the official cause of death was a fentanyl overdose.
是的，马斯里到达医院时心脏骤停，但官方的死因是芬太尼过量。
He had struggled with heroin addiction prior to this and was open about it.
在此之前，他曾与海洛因成瘾作斗争，并且对此持开放态度。
And there are other ways in which the conspiracy narrative doesn't hold up.
阴谋论在其他方面也站不住脚。
St. Louis proper has one of the most alarming homicide rates in the country.
圣路易斯本地是全国凶杀率最惊人的地区之一。
In 2017, it was the most alarming, having the highest murder rate, according to an analysis of FBI data.
根据联邦调查局数据分析，2017 年是最令人担忧的一年，谋杀率最高。
By comparison, Chicago was number nine.
相比之下，芝加哥排名第九。
So lots of people get shot in St. Louis.
所以很多人在圣路易斯被枪杀。
Also, neither Deandre Joshua nor Shawn Gray was an activist.
此外，德安德烈·约书亚和肖恩·格雷都不是活动家。
And even if they did testify before the grand jury, Joshua and Gray were both found dead after the decision not to indict Officer Wilson, meaning they'd have been killed for testimony that had not even convinced a grand jury to issue an indictment
即使他们确实在大陪审团面前作证，约书亚和格雷也在决定不起诉威尔逊警官后被发现死亡，这意味着他们会因为甚至没有说服大陪审团提出起诉书的证词而被杀
I talked about all of this with Ashley Yates, a prominent figure in the Ferguson protests.
我与阿什利·耶茨（Ashley Yates）谈论了所有这一切，她是弗格森抗议活动中的知名人物。
Of all the people I spoke with for this story, she most epitomized the equivocal belief in the idea of a conspiracy, parsing the difference between what is provable and what is likely.
在我为这个故事采访过的所有人中，她最能体现对阴谋这一概念的模棱两可的信念，解析什么是可证明的和什么是可能的之间的区别。
Can I say that right now, in this moment, there is a conspiracy against activists?
我能说现在，此时此刻，有针对活动人士的阴谋吗？
No, because again, I don't have the hard, concrete evidence.
不，因为我没有确凿、具体的证据。
Can I say that it is likely?
我能说有可能吗？
When I take into account my experiences, the experiences of people around me and those before, absolutely.
当我考虑到我的经历、我周围的人和以前的人的经历时，绝对如此。
Even at the same time, I wonder if it's possible, with Mr. Joshua and Mr. Gray, if they're-- it's possible, do you think that there really is a conspiracy, but they're just not part of it?
即使在同一时间，我想知道这是否有可能，对于约书亚先生和格雷先生来说，如果他们——有可能，你认为真的存在一个阴谋，但他们只是不参与其中吗？
I mean, anything's possible.
我的意思是，一切皆有可能。
Again, I don't have-- you know, I don't have thorough investigations.
再说一遍，我没有——你知道，我没有进行彻底的调查。
I don't have the answers.
我没有答案。
I didn't murder them.
我没有谋杀他们。
I wasn't there, you know?
我当时不在场，你知道吗？
So only the people that were there can tell us completely what happened.
所以只有当时在场的人才能完整地告诉我们发生了什么。
So of course, it's possible that there is a conspiracy and that they're not a part.
所以当然，这可能是一个阴谋，而他们并不是其中的一部分。
It's possible that there isn't a conspiracy, and all of these deaths are unrelated.
很可能这并不存在阴谋，所有这些死亡都是无关的。
Like, again, I hold all possibilities.
就像，我再次拥有所有可能性。
And I try to go towards the most likely one.
我尝试朝最有可能的方向前进。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Ashley Yates But I'd say that to-- to say that there is something normal about a person being shot and found in a burned-out car one time, let alone two, three times-- you know, I don't want to accept that and say that that's just a likely outcome for anybody.
阿什利·耶茨：但是我想说的是——一个人被枪杀并在一辆烧毁的汽车中被发现一次是很正常的，更不用说两三次了——你知道，我不想接受这一点，并说这对任何人来说都是可能的结果。
And I should say, technically, it wasn't the outcome for Deandre Joshua.
我应该说，从技术上讲，这不是德安德烈·约书亚的结果。
I only learned this after talking to Ashley and the others.
我是在与阿什利和其他人交谈后才得知这一点的。
But according to the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office, Joshua was not found in a burned-out car the way everyone thinks.
但根据圣路易斯县法医办公室的说法，约书亚并不是像大家想象的那样被发现在一辆烧毁的汽车里。
His body was partly burned, but the car was not.
他的身体部分被烧毁，但汽车却没有。
This may sound like a small point, except the supposed similarity between Darren Seals' death and Deandre Joshua's death is a load-bearing pillar in the structure of the conspiracy.
这听起来可能是一个小问题，但达伦·西尔斯之死和德安德烈·约书亚之死之间假定的相似性是阴谋结构中的一个承重支柱。
And it wasn't just spread word of mouth.
这不仅仅是口口相传。
It's been widely reported in the media as fact.
这已被媒体广泛报道为事实。
Though, of course, even though it's not true, the deaths could still be connected.
当然，尽管这不是真的，但死亡事件仍然可能有联系。
Do you have ideas about who might be responsible for the-- for these deaths?
您是否知道谁可能对这些死亡负责？
Other than, like, the government and the police?
除了政府和警察之外？
I understood why someone could suspect the police.
我明白为什么有人会怀疑警察。
I've covered a lot of protests over the years.
多年来我报道了很多抗议活动。
But the cops in and around Ferguson were notably casual about violence.
但弗格森及其周边地区的警察对暴力行为却表现得很随意。
I saw an officer point an assault weapon mounted on a tripod at a group of demonstrators that included elderly people and small children.
我看到一名警官将安装在三脚架上的攻击性武器指向一群示威者，其中包括老人和小孩。
Before another demonstration, one that I didn't cover, one cop texted another, quote, "It's going to be a lot of fun beating the hell out of these shitheads once the sun goes down and nobody can tell us apart." He was later charged with assaulting a protester, who was actually an undercover cop.
在另一场我没有报道的示威活动之前，一名警察给另一名警察发短信，引述道：“一旦太阳落山，没人能区分我们，殴打这些混蛋将会很有趣。”他后来被指控袭击一名抗议者，而该抗议者实际上是一名便衣警察。
When This American Life reached out to the St. Louis County Police Department for comment, the spokesman emailed back saying that there were roughly 52 police departments in the St. Louis area, which employ about 2,700 officers, essentially saying that you can't categorize all of them the same way.
当《This American Life》联系圣路易斯县警察局征求意见时，该发言人回复电子邮件称，圣路易斯地区大约有 52 个警察局，雇用约 2,700 名警察，本质上是说你不能对所有警察局进行同样的分类。
And he said the officer with the assault weapon on a tripod was trying to locate an SUV that reportedly had several assault weapons in it and that the people in the vehicle were threatening to kill law enforcement.
他说，这名在三脚架上放置攻击性武器的警官正试图找到一辆SUV，据报道车内装有数件攻击性武器，车内的人威胁要杀死执法人员。
But there's a broader context to this conversation.
但这次谈话还有更广泛的背景。
When I taught African-American history courses, I'd often begin with a series of questions.
当我教授非裔美国人历史课程时，我经常从一系列问题开始。
What if I told you that a person was killed in front of hundreds of witnesses, but no one raised a finger to stop it or even report it?
如果我告诉你一个人在数百名目击者面前被杀，但没有人举起一根手指阻止甚至举报怎么办？
And what if I told you that crowd viewed the murder as entertainment and packed lunches to watch the spectacle?
如果我告诉你，人群将谋杀视为娱乐，并准备午餐来观看这一奇观呢？
And what if they ritually cut body parts from the deceased to keep as souvenirs?
如果他们按照仪式从死者身上切下身体部位作为纪念品怎么办？
And that this happened not dozens or hundreds of times, but thousands?
而且这种情况不是发生了几十次或几百次，而是几千次？
Each question is like plotting a point on a probability graph.
每个问题就像在概率图上绘制一个点。
And the likelihood of all of them happening together seems vanishingly small.
而且所有这些同时发生的可能性似乎微乎其微。
But all this really happened.
但这一切却真实的发生了。
Talking to people in Ferguson, the history of outlandish truths, like the Tuskegee experiment, in which physicians in Alabama failed to treat a group of black men infected with syphilis, essentially to see what would happen, or the FBI's counterintelligence program, which surveilled and harassed black leaders in the 1960s, none of this was ever far from the surface.
与弗格森的人们交谈时，那些离奇真相的历史，比如塔斯基吉实验，阿拉巴马州的医生未能治疗一群感染梅毒的黑人，主要是为了看看会发生什么，或者联邦调查局的反情报计划，它在 20 世纪 60 年代监视和骚扰黑人领导人，这些都不是远离表面的事情。
How do you sift between plausible and paranoid when the past looks like this?
当过去看起来像这样时，你如何在合理和偏执之间进行筛选？
As Ashley Yates told me, it would be ahistorical for her not to think that there's something larger at play, something coordinated.
正如阿什利·耶茨（Ashley Yates）告诉我的那样，如果她不认为有更大的东西、协调的东西在起作用，那就是非历史的。
Apart from that history, though, there are much more personal reasons that some people in Ferguson suspect a conspiracy.
然而，除了这段历史之外，还有更多个人原因让弗格森的一些人怀疑这是一场阴谋。
Those people who believe someone wants to kill them-- they've been regularly getting messages from people who apparently want to kill them.
那些相信有人想要杀死他们的人——他们经常收到明显想要杀死他们的人发来的消息。
Everyone I spoke with still receives death threats or some sort of hate-filled communication more than four years after Michael Brown's death.
迈克尔·布朗去世四年多后，与我交谈过的每个人仍然收到死亡威胁或某种充满仇恨的沟通。
Jerome Jenkins of Cathy's Kitchen showed me a fake ticket someone mailed him offering free passage back to Africa.
凯茜厨房的杰罗姆·詹金斯给我看了一张有人寄给他的假票，提供免费返回非洲的通道。
In 2017, Reverend Darryl Gray, who's been involved in social justice efforts in Ferguson, learned of a suspicious package left on the floor of his locked rental truck.
2017 年，一直参与弗格森社会正义努力的达里尔·格雷牧师 (Reverend Darryl Gray) 得知，他锁着的出租卡车的地板上留下了一个可疑包裹。
It contained a live 6-foot-long python.
里面有一条活的6英尺长的蟒蛇。
There were no arrests made in the case.
此案没有逮捕任何人。
I also spoke with an activist named Ohun Ashe about what's been going on.
我还与一位名叫奥亨·阿什 (Ohun Ashe) 的活动家谈论了正在发生的事情。
She told me she's always hypervigilant these days moving around in St. Louis.
她告诉我，这些天她在圣路易斯走动时总是保持高度警惕。
She says the people threatening her are not subtle about it.
她说那些威胁她的人对此并不敏感。
I have been told that they want to slit my throat and throw me in the Mississippi River.
有人告诉我，他们想割断我的喉咙，然后把我扔进密西西比河。
I have read that one several times, that--
我读了好几遍那篇文章，内容是——
On social media?
在社交媒体上？
Ohun Ashe Yes.
奥亨·阿什 是的。
I have read on social media as well that back in the '60s, they would have just threw us in the Mississippi River by now.
我也在社交媒体上读到，如果是在 60 年代，他们现在肯定会把我们扔进密西西比河里。
Ohun's a small woman, but stands out in a crowd.
奥恩身材娇小，但在人群中却很引人注目。
She wears her hair in braids that go past her shoulders and shirts with slogans like "black men smile too" and "black girls are the purest form of art."
她把头发编成辫子，过肩，穿着衬衫，上面写着“黑人男人也微笑”和“黑人女孩是最纯粹的艺术形式”等口号。
I've been followed by white vans.
我一直被白色货车跟踪。
I have had letters that said that I was an atrocity to the city, I deserve to be dealt with, that they want to silence me for good.
我收到过一些信件，说我是这座城市的暴行，我应该受到处理，他们想让我永远保持沉默。
So when you have a list of names of people who are known, and they are dying in this mysterious way, as an activist or as a person that people deem active, you wonder, are you next?
因此，当你有一份知名人士的名单，而他们以这种神秘的方式死去时，作为一名活动家或作为一个人们认为活跃的人，你想知道，你是下一个吗？
You wonder, who really is around me?
你想知道，谁真的在我身边？
You wonder, am I crazy for thinking that, why is this car parked outside at the same time every day?
你想知道，我是不是疯了，为什么这辆车每天都在同一时间停在外面？
Or who is this new person that's on the block that I didn't recognize before?
或者这个街区里我以前不认识的新人是谁？
I noticed something else when I started talking to people in Ferguson again.
当我再次开始与弗格森的人交谈时，我注意到了一些其他事情。
Many of the people I met when I first went there no longer live there.
我第一次去那里时遇到的许多人已经不再住在那里了。
Ashley Yates told me she left St. Louis partly because she needed to heal.
阿什利·耶茨告诉我，她离开圣路易斯的部分原因是她需要康复。
And another activist told me she moved to Washington, DC after getting what she took to be credible threats on her life.
另一位活动人士告诉我，她在生命受到可信威胁后搬到了华盛顿特区。
That sense of alarm is clearly what the people making death threats are after.
发出死亡威胁的人显然就是想要这种惊慌感。
Whether there's an actual conspiracy or not, there are certainly people who want the activists to believe there's one.
无论是否存在真正的阴谋，肯定有人希望活动人士相信其中存在阴谋。
Of all the activists I spoke to about the conspiracy, there was one whose position wasn't ambivalent at all-- a rapper named Tef Poe.
在我就这一阴谋进行过交谈的所有积极分子中，有一个人的立场一点也不矛盾——一位名叫特夫·坡的说唱歌手。
When I arrived in Ferguson four years ago, person after person directed me to Tef, saying he was the guy to talk to if I really wanted to understand what was going on there.
四年前，当我来到弗格森时，一个又一个的人把我引向特夫，说如果我真的想了解那里发生了什么，他就是我可以交谈的人。
In the years since Michael Brown's death, he's become a more prominent voice nationally.
迈克尔·布朗去世后的这些年里，他在全国范围内变得更加突出。
He's currently a fellow at Harvard University.
他目前是哈佛大学的研究员。
We did a panel there together.
我们在那里一起做了一个小组。
Anyhow, his perspective on the idea of a conspiracy was a little different.
无论如何，他对阴谋的看法有些不同。
The conspiracy theory, to me, is some unicorn stuff.
对我来说，阴谋论是一些独角兽的东西。
Meaning he doesn't believe it.
意思是他不相信。
Bassem, the Palestinian activist who died on the bus, had formerly been Tef's roommate.
死在公交车上的巴勒斯坦活动家巴塞姆曾是泰夫的室友。
And Danye Jones, who was found hanging in his backyard, was Tef's cousin.
丹耶·琼斯被发现吊死在自家后院，他是泰夫的表弟。
He knew Darren Seals, one of the activists shot in a car, just not through activist circles.
他认识达伦·西尔斯（Darren Seals），他是车中被枪杀的活动人士之一，但他并不是通过活动人士圈子认识的。
That soft clinking you might hear as he's talking-- Tef wears a necklace with three charms that spell out the name "Allah" in Arabic.
当泰夫说话时，你可能会听到那种轻柔的叮当声——泰夫戴着一条项链，上面有三个小饰物，上面用阿拉伯语拼出了“阿拉”这个名字。
So I can't connect what happened to Seals with what happened to Bassem.
所以我无法将海豹突击队的遭遇与巴塞姆的遭遇联系起来。
I can't connect what happened to Danye with what happened to Bassem.
我无法将丹耶的遭遇与巴塞姆的遭遇联系起来。
I have to look at each situation for what it is.
我必须了解每种情况的具体情况。
And somebody like Darren wasn't an activist.
像达伦这样的人并不是激进分子。
He was-- I would consider him a street revolutionary.
我认为他是一位街头革命者。
So his constituency is a lot deeper than just folks who are going to go to the next rally.
因此，他的支持者比那些将要参加下一次集会的人要深入得多。
We're talking about from rival rappers to people who didn't like-- don't like the fact that he survived his original shooting and so forth.
我们谈论的是来自竞争对手的说唱歌手以及那些不喜欢他在最初的枪击事件中幸存下来的人等等。
And so he'd been shot prior to the time that was fatal.
所以他在致命之前就被枪杀了。
That shooting had nothing to do with the protests or Michael Brown.
那次枪击事件与抗议活动或迈克尔·布朗无关。
It was street stuff.
这是街头的东西。
We live in a city where guns are everywhere.
我们生活在一个枪支无处不在的城市。
Violence is at large in our city.
我们城市的暴力现象十分普遍。
And I think a lot of people that seek to add a conspiracy to it aren't really living in the circumstances where they have to see the violence and interact with the violence.
我认为很多试图为其添加阴谋的人并没有真正生活在他们必须看到暴力并与暴力互动的环境中。
So they have to create a Puff the Magic Dragon theory about what happened.
所以他们必须创造一个关于所发生的事情的魔龙帕夫理论。
And is that really true, though?
但这真的是真的吗？
I mean, from the very point of, like, Ferguson, or St. Louis, or Chicago, Gary, Philadelphia, New York, any of the cities we talk about, nobody who lives in a black community is really isolated from violence.
我的意思是，从弗格森、圣路易斯、芝加哥、加里、费城、纽约等我们谈论的任何一个城市来看，生活在黑人社区的人都没有真正远离暴力。
It's one of those things that can happen to anyone, anywhere.
这是任何地方任何人都可能发生的事情之一。
That's true.
这是真的。
That's true.
这是真的。
And I do agree with that.
我确实同意这一点。
But while it does affect everyone, all of us don't have the same experience.
虽然它确实影响到每个人，但我们所有人的经历并不相同。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Tef Poe I'm talking about the reality of the stone-cold streets.
Tef Poe 我说的是冰冷街道的现实。
And a lot of the individuals-- for example, my friend, Bassem, who I loved dearly, a brother of mine-- I helped bury him when he passed away.
很多人——例如我深爱的朋友巴塞姆，他是我的兄弟——在他去世时我帮助埋葬了他。
I know-- and I can say this because Bass is like blood to me-- we refuse to attach a conspiracy theory narrative to Bassem's death.
我知道——我可以这样说，因为巴斯对我来说就像血液一样——我们拒绝将阴谋论的叙述与巴塞姆的死亡联系起来。
When he passed away, people said, well, what happened?
当他去世时，人们说，发生了什么事？
Well, what happened was, he was still in the ghetto.
好吧，发生的事情是，他仍然在贫民窟里。
Like, this is the reality of the circumstances.
就像，这就是现实情况。
And I'm pissed off about the fact that I keep having to bury people.
我对我一直不得不埋葬人这一事实感到愤怒。
And people are acting like Santa Claus is coming down here killing folks.
人们的表现就像圣诞老人要来这里杀人一样。
So like, if I walked outside the studio right now, and somebody shoots me, it's going to be all over the internet.
就像，如果我现在走出工作室，有人向我开枪，这件事就会传遍互联网。
Another Ferguson activist killed, another da-da-da-da-da, avoiding the fact that I come from a family of gangbangers, avoiding the fact that prior to this, I had some enemies.
又一个弗格森活动人士被杀，又一个达达达达达，避免了我来自黑帮家庭的事实，避免了在此之前我有一些敌人的事实。
And you mean enemies who are not connected to your work as an activist.
你指的是那些与你作为活动家的工作无关的敌人。
As an activist, yeah, yeah.
作为一个积极分子，是的，是的。
Jelani Cobb It didn't surprise me when Tef pointed out that he keeps a firearm nearby when he's back home.
杰拉尼·科布 当泰夫指出他回家时在附近放着一把枪时，我并不感到惊讶。
Missouri is an open carry state.
密苏里州是一个开放携带州。
I also asked him about the militia group who stood on the roofs with guns during the protests.
我还向他询问了抗议期间持枪站在屋顶上的民兵组织的情况。
I wondered what Tef thought about the idea that they might be involved in the conspiracy.
我想知道特夫对于他们可能参与这个阴谋的想法有何看法。
He laughed at that.
他笑了。
They had their guns, he said.
他说，他们有枪。
But so did a lot of his friends.
但他的很多朋友也是如此。
And that's where I'm going with this.
这就是我的目的。
This is not a city of sitting ducks, where, like-- like, if this was going down, like, the conspiracy aspect of this was really, truly a thing on that level, I just believe that a lot of us would be rocking out a hell of a lot different, man.
这不是一个坐以待毙的城市，如果这件事发生了，这件事的阴谋方面真的、真的是一个级别的事情，我只是相信我们很多人都会经历很多不同的事情，伙计。
Mm-hm, mm-hm.
嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Tef Poe I mean, y'all saw Ferguson, man.
特夫·坡 我的意思是，你们都看到了弗格森，伙计。
I mean--
我的意思是——
[LAUGHS] They don't have to send a firing squad into the apartment to kill you.
[笑]他们不必派遣行刑队进入公寓来杀死你。
Now, all they gotta do is leave you in North St. Louis to die.
现在，他们要做的就是把你留在北圣路易斯等死。
And that serves the same purpose.
这也有同样的目的。
You're silenced and ostracized from the rest of the world.
你被世界其他地方压制和排斥。
You're shadow banned on Twitter.
你在 Twitter 上被禁止使用。
And you're still there with the killers, thieves, dealers, and the rapists, and the murderers.
而你仍然和杀手、小偷、毒贩、强奸犯和杀人犯在一起。
And the odds are that you will be a victim of that same fate.
而且你很可能会成为同样命运的受害者。
I mean, for me, that is where the conspiracy comes into play here.
我的意思是，对我来说，这就是阴谋发挥作用的地方。
It's not with the boogie man that's going to get me when I leave from this interview.
当我结束这次采访时，不会有那个布吉人来吸引我。
This brings me back to something that had begun rattling around in my mind when I first started talking to people in Ferguson again.
这让我回想起当我再次开始与弗格森的人们交谈时，我脑海中开始盘旋的事情。
What do we actually mean by the word "conspiracy"?
“阴谋”这个词的真正含义是什么？
Need it be hatched in a dark room hazy with cigar smoke?
需要在充满雪茄烟雾的黑暗房间里孵化吗？
Or can it be the slow accretion of small decisions, each of which makes life a little bit more difficult, a little bit more dangerous, and opportunities that much more scarce?
或者是小决定的缓慢积累，每一个决定都让生活变得更加困难，更加危险，机会更加稀缺？
The problems Tef talked about exist to some degree or another in thousands of communities across the country, most of them far from the site of protests about an unarmed black 18-year-old fatally shot by a white police officer.
特夫谈到的问题在某种程度上存在于全国数千个社区中，其中大多数社区远离抗议现场，该抗议活动涉及一名手无寸铁的 18 岁黑人被白人警察枪杀的事件。
Conspiracy theories typically explain actions that have been taken.
阴谋论通常解释已经采取的行动。
But what kinds of theories explain the failure to act?
但什么样的理论可以解释未能采取行动的原因呢？
Those are the questions that the skeptical journalist in me raises.
这些是我这个持怀疑态度的记者提出的问题。
The numbers fluctuate.
数字波动。
But maybe 70% of me dismisses the idea of the deaths being orchestrated by a single individual or group.
但也许 70% 的我不认同死亡是由单个个人或团体精心策划的想法。
But there's another part of me, the 30% part, that remembers when I first went to Ferguson and thought, I have no idea what the people on the other side of these protests are capable of.
但我的另一部分，即 30% 的部分，记得当我第一次去弗格森时，我想，我不知道这些抗议活动另一边的人们有什么能力。
Skepticism is fundamental to journalism.
怀疑主义是新闻业的基础。
But it only works if you can recognize the times when you need to be skeptical of your skepticism, too.
但只有当你能够认识到什么时候你也需要对自己的怀疑主义持怀疑态度时，它才有效。
Jelani Cobb-- he's a staff writer for the New Yorker magazine.
杰拉尼·科布——他是《纽约客》杂志的特约撰稿人。
Coming up, a guy who believes in conspiracies follows him closely and then decides to sign up.
接下来，一个相信阴谋论的家伙紧紧跟随他，然后决定报名参加。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Anything Can Be Anything." In this very conspiracy-minded moment in our country, where even the President of the United States is spreading conspiracy theories, like, all the time, we have stories of people who see the dots and can't help but connect the dots and then have to figure out what to do with their conclusions.
今天的节目《一切皆有可能》。在我们国家这个充满阴谋论的时刻，就连美国总统也在传播阴谋论，就像我们一直在发生的故事一样，人们看到了这些点，情不自禁地把这些点联系起来，然后必须弄清楚如何处理他们的结论。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two-- The Red Menace Hits the Crimson Tide.
第二幕——红色威胁袭上赤红之潮。
So now, we turn to a guy who is upset about the conspiracies to tamper with the US elections in 2016, the stuff the Russians did.
现在，我们来谈谈一个对俄罗斯人在 2016 年篡改美国大选的阴谋感到不安的人。
He was outraged about that.
他对此感到愤怒。
But he had a strange way of dealing with it.
但他有一种奇怪的处理方式。
He decided, I'm going to try that myself in a big political race in 2017 and one of the reddest states in the country, Alabama.
他决定，我要在 2017 年的一场大型政治竞选中亲自尝试一下，而且是在全国最红的州之一阿拉巴马州。
Ben Calhoun tells us what happened.
本·卡尔霍恩告诉我们发生了什么。
I met up with Matt Osborne outside his parents' house in a place called Florence, Alabama.
我在阿拉巴马州佛罗伦萨市的马特·奥斯本父母家外面见到了他。
It's this beautiful little city in the northern part of the state.
这是该州北部这座美丽的小城市。
Now, this street that my folks live on--
现在，我家人居住的这条街道——
It was on this street, Matt told me, 2017, he steps out of his parents' house.
马特告诉我，2017 年，他就在这条街上走出了父母的房子。
He looked one way, looked the other.
他看看一侧，又看看另一侧。
Whoa.
哇哦。
Every house up the street to the corner had a Doug Jones sign.
街角的每栋房子都有道格·琼斯的标志。
At the time, remember, Doug Jones was a Democratic candidate for US Senate in Alabama.
请记住，当时道格·琼斯是阿拉巴马州美国参议院的民主党候选人。
Matt was seeing Jones lawn signs up and down his parents' street, where usually, Matt says, people have signs for Republicans.
马特在他父母的街道上看到琼斯草坪上的标牌，马特说，人们通常在那里挂着共和党的标牌。
Folks who would ordinarily have been attracted to voting for a conservative, who were willing to vote for Doug Jones, are enthusiastic about voting for Doug Jones.
通常会被吸引投票给保守派的人们，他们愿意投票给道格·琼斯，现在却热衷于投票给道格·琼斯。
And that told me it was possible for him to win.
这告诉我他有可能获胜。
Were you-- were you expecting that at all?
你——你真的期待这一点吗？
I was floored by it, to be quite frank.
坦率地说，我对此感到震惊。
I had never seen anything like that for a Democrat, not since I was a kid, not since George Wallace's last run for governor.
我从来没有见过民主党人有这样的表现，从我小时候起，从乔治·华莱士上次竞选州长以来，都没有。
If you're a Democrat, you know you're in trouble when the last big success story you can remember is the man who said, "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." But so back to all these Jones lawn signs.
如果你是民主党人，当你记得的最后一个重大成功故事是一个人说：“现在种族隔离，明天种族隔离，永远种族隔离”时，你就知道自己遇到了麻烦。但回到所有这些琼斯草坪标志。
Matt was excited, because Matt was a bitter and disaffected Democrat in one of the reddest parts of one of the reddest states.
马特很兴奋，因为马特是一位痛苦而不满的民主党人，生活在最红的州之一的最红的地区之一。
2016 sent a lot of Democrats over the edge, of course.
当然，2016 年让很多民主党人陷入了困境。
And Matt was among them.
马特也在其中。
Matt obviously knew Trump would win Alabama.
马特显然知道特朗普会赢得阿拉巴马州。
But he'd gotten pretty obsessed with the dirty tricks he saw online during that election.
但他对那次选举期间在网上看到的肮脏伎俩非常着迷。
In the 2000s, he'd started writing about shady political tactics he'd spotted on the internet.
2000 年代，他开始撰写有关他在互联网上发现的不正当政治策略的文章。
He wrote about that for sites like Huff Post and Crooks and Liars.
他为《赫夫邮报》和《骗子与骗子》等网站撰写了相关文章。
Matt actually has an investigator's background-- five years in radio intelligence with the army, after that, a few years as a private eye.
马特实际上有调查员的背景——在军队从事无线电情报工作五年，之后又当了几年私家侦探。
Matt was onto some stuff kind of early.
马特很早就开始做一些事情。
Like, he was talking about Twitter bots as early as 2010, writing about Cambridge Analytica two years before most of us had heard of it.
比如，他早在 2010 年就开始谈论 Twitter 机器人，并在我们大多数人听说 Cambridge Analytica 的两年前就写到了它。
So Matt was paying close attention in the 2016 election when he started seeing what he thought were shifty tactics being deployed to help Donald Trump-- accounts that look fake on Twitter and Facebook, doing things like stoking divisions between Sanders Democrats and Clinton Democrats.
因此，当马特开始密切关注 2016 年大选时，他开始看到他认为是狡猾的策略被用来帮助唐纳德·特朗普——在 Twitter 和 Facebook 上看起来很假的账户，做一些事情，比如煽动桑德斯民主党和克林顿民主党之间的分歧。
You know, if you get into a rabid debate with somebody who's just, you know, Bernie, Bernie, I'll never vote for Hillary, you know, start looking at their profile.
你知道，如果你与某个人进行激烈的辩论，你知道，伯尼，伯尼，我永远不会投票给希拉里，你知道，开始查看他们的个人资料。
And you say, that-- that doesn't look right.
你说，那看起来不对。
This Twitter handle doesn't look right, because it's got 12 random numbers in it.
这个 Twitter 账号看起来不太对劲，因为里面有 12 个随机数字。
So it seems like a computer-generated account.
所以它看起来像是一个计算机生成的帐户。
Or this person looks weird, because they've tweeted 1,000 times, but they haven't put up a profile picture.
或者这个人看起来很奇怪，因为他们已经发了 1000 条推文，但他们还没有发布个人资料照片。
That was a lot of it.
就这么多了。
Who is this weird profile?
这个奇怪的个人资料是谁？
Who are the administrators of this suspicious Facebook page?
这个可疑 Facebook 页面的管理员是谁？
Who are the admins of this mysterious page that's got all this anti-Hillary Clinton propaganda?
这个充满反希拉里·克林顿宣传的神秘页面的管理员是谁？
Click on the Admin.
单击管理员。
So I'm looking at a profile now that is striking me right away as fake.
所以我现在看到的个人资料立刻让我觉得是假的。
All right, it's got 25 friends, who appear to be real people.
好吧，它有 25 个朋友，他们看起来都是真人。
And none of them are related to each other.
而且它们之间没有任何关系。
When you were having that experience, what was the feeling that you had?
当你有这样的经历时，你有什么感觉？
Like, outrage, anger?
比如愤怒、愤怒？
Was it irritation?
是刺激吗？
Was it worry?
是担心吗？
Deep foreboding.
深深的不祥预感。
Deep foreboding, deep foreboding.
深深的预感，深深的预感。
And the closer we got to the election, the more I felt like something was wrong.
距离选举越近，我就越觉得有些不对劲。
We've all heard about what was wrong now.
我们都听说过现在出了什么问题。
It's confirmed-- the Russian meddling and propaganda, phony accounts designed to sow divisions among Americans and demoralize voters.
事实已经得到证实——俄罗斯的干预和宣传、虚假账户旨在在美国人中制造分裂并挫伤选民的士气。
Matt had had it.
马特已经受够了。
For him, from what I can tell, 2016 was like a tipping point of bitterness.
据我所知，对他来说，2016 年就像是痛苦的转折点。
Matt's bitterness had been piling up for years.
马特的苦涩多年来一直在累积。
Like, he remembers kids in grade school talking about how they were for the Confederacy, which Matt could not understand.
就像，他记得小学时的孩子们谈论他们如何支持南部邦联，而马特无法理解。
And I'll never forget the kid next to me who was talking the most about it.
我永远不会忘记我旁边谈论最多的那个孩子。
When I saw him again, when I got out of the Army in 1999, and I came home, I ran into him at Walmart.
当我1999年退伍回家时再次见到他时，我在沃尔玛遇到了他。
And in the first 60 seconds of our conversation, he was telling me how much he hated immigrants.
在我们谈话的前 60 秒里，他告诉我他有多么讨厌移民。
So I guess maybe part of my problem is that my values have always contradicted the place where I was.
所以我想也许我的部分问题是我的价值观总是与我所在的地方相矛盾。
So imagine Matt after he left the Army with an injury.
想象一下马特受伤离开军队后的情况。
He's on partial disability, in chronic pain, searching for direction, spending a lot of time reading the internet and writing about Democratic politics.
他患有部分残疾，患有慢性疼痛，正在寻找方向，花费大量时间阅读互联网并撰写有关民主政治的文章。
He's like a blue dot in a red ocean.
他就像红海中的一个蓝点。
Matt describes the last 10 years of his life as him being "radicalized." That was his word.
马特将他生命的最后十年描述为“激进化”。这是他的话。
And that is where Matt's head was when Alabama's 2017 Senate election suddenly burst into the center ring of American politics.
当阿拉巴马州 2017 年参议院选举突然成为美国政治的中心时，马特的头脑就在于此。
We begin tonight with the Alabama Senate race, where--
我们今晚从阿拉巴马州参议员竞选开始，那里——
Quick refresher.
快速复习一下。
You'll probably remember this.
你可能会记得这一点。
This was a special election to fill the Senate seat vacated by Jeff Sessions, who'd left to be attorney general.
这是一次特别选举，旨在填补杰夫·塞申斯（Jeff Sessions）空出的参议院席位，塞申斯已卸任司法部长。
On one side, the Democrat, Doug Jones, an uncle-ish looking former prosecutor, and his opponent, Republican Roy Moore, a Bible-quoting former Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court.
一边是民主党人道格·琼斯（Doug Jones），一位看起来像叔叔的前检察官，另一边是共和党人罗伊·摩尔（Roy Moore），一位引用圣经的阿拉巴马州最高法院前首席大法官。
The race was not supposed to be competitive, until it was.
这场比赛本来不应该是竞争性的，直到它出现为止。
Remember, nine women came forward to accuse Roy Moore of a combination of sexual misconduct and molestation for things he allegedly did when they were young, some underage, as young as 14.
请记住，有 9 名女性站出来指控罗伊·摩尔犯有不当性行为和猥亵行为，据称这些行为是他在她们年轻时所做的事情，其中一些是未成年，最小的只有 14 岁。
Moore denied those allegations.
摩尔否认了这些指控。
But there was lots of reporting, including accounts of how Moore was allegedly such a creep, he got banned from the local mall.
但有很多报道，包括据称摩尔是如何变态的，他被禁止进入当地购物中心。
It wasn't enough to knock Moore out of contention, though.
但这还不足以让摩尔退出竞争。
Alabama is just so red that people were saying things like this on conservative talk radio in Birmingham.
阿拉巴马州太红了，以至于人们在伯明翰的保守派谈话电台上都在说这样的话。
What we're getting is, Alabamians would vote for a pedophile over a liberal Democrat.
我们得到的是，阿拉巴马人会投票给恋童癖者，而不是自由派民主党人。
In this circumstance, yes.
在这种情况下，是的。
Reporter 2 OK.
记者2 好的。
You're just saying it flat out, then.
那你就直说了吧。
Yep, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Ben Calhoun It got uglier and uglier.
本·卡尔霍恩：事情变得越来越丑陋。
As the allegations against Moore piled up, Breitbart dispatched two reporters with the mission of discrediting the women making the allegations.
随着针对摩尔的指控越来越多，布赖特巴特新闻网派遣了两名记者，其任务是抹黑提出指控的女性。
It turned into a morass of character attacks and aspersions, including fake news stories targeting Moore's accusers.
它变成了一场人格攻击和诽谤的泥沼，包括针对摩尔指控者的假新闻故事。
And a disaffected, angry Matt Osborne, still stewing over 2016, wanted in super badly, which is how Matt went from despising the sleazy online tactics of 2016, utterly opposing them, to using them for his side.
心怀不满、愤怒的马特·奥斯本 (Matt Osborne) 仍然对 2016 年耿耿于怀，非常渴望加入，这就是马特从鄙视 2016 年卑鄙的在线策略、完全反对它们，到利用它们为自己辩护的原因。
And the moment that tipped him from one side to the other-- it happened on the phone.
而让他从一边转向另一边的那一刻——发生在电话上。
September-- this was two months before the election-- Matt was talking to a DC political operative he knows.
九月，距离选举还有两个月，马特正在与一位他认识的华盛顿政治人物交谈。
The plan was just, let's brainstorm a bunch of ideas, anything to help Doug Jones.
计划只是，让我们集思广益，集思广益，任何可以帮助道格·琼斯的想法。
We are talking on the phone.
我们正在通电话。
And it's sort of a blue sky discussion.
这是一场蓝天讨论。
So the two of them start throwing stuff out, from regular ideas to pretty far-out ideas, the kind that start with, what if?
所以他们两个开始抛出一些东西，从常规的想法到相当遥远的想法，那种以“如果？”开头的想法。
What if, on election day, you had events in neighboring states that might draw some people from Alabama?
如果在选举日，您在邻州举办的活动可能会吸引一些来自阿拉巴马州的人怎么办？
Like, you could advertise heavily in Alabama to draw potential Roy Moore voters out of the state on election day.
例如，您可以在阿拉巴马州做大量广告，以在选举日吸引潜在的罗伊摩尔选民离开该州。
So those are the kind of ideas that are getting kicked around.
所以这些都是正在被讨论的想法。
Right.
正确的。
These are just crazy ideas getting kicked around.
这些只是一些疯狂的想法。
And then, suddenly, Matt says, he's throwing out an idea that he hadn't even considered before the moment it was coming out of his mouth.
然后，马特说，他突然抛出了一个他在说出这个想法之前从未考虑过的想法。
He tells the person on the phone, Alabama Republicans, like both national parties, they're split, right?
他告诉电话里的人，阿拉巴马州的共和党人，就像两个国家政党一样，他们是分裂的，对吗？
Internally divided.
内部分裂。
You've got a more centrist wing.
你有一个更中间派的翼。
And you've got a more radical wing.
而且你有一个更激进的翼。
So what if, Matt hypothesized, what if we could pose as Republicans online with fake identities, and we could do things to aggravate that divide, make Alabama Republicans feel icky about each other, and try to suppress Republican votes?
马特假设，如果我们可以在网上用假身份冒充共和党人，并且我们可以做一些事情来加剧这种分歧，让阿拉巴马州的共和党人互相厌恶，并试图压制共和党的选票，那又怎么样呢？
In other words, Matt proposed a conspiracy-- the kind of conspiracy Russians are accused of running in 2016, right?
换句话说，马特提出了一个阴谋——俄罗斯人被指控在 2016 年竞选时犯下的那种阴谋，对吗？
Put out misinformation and disinformation under phony identities to stoke divisions among your opponents.
以虚假身份发布错误信息和虚假信息，以煽动对手之间的分裂。
You've probably heard of these referred to as false flag operations.
您可能听说过这些被称为假旗操作的行为。
And that's the one that people want to know about.
这就是人们想知道的。
Like, why don't you write that up and share it with me?
就像，你为什么不把它写下来并与我分享呢？
So I wrote a little paper.
所以我写了一篇小论文。
Matt then transformed his rough idea into a detailed plan.
马特随后将他的粗略想法转变为详细的计划。
He drafted a memo, one this operative could take to Democratic donors to see if anyone might fund it.
他起草了一份备忘录，这名特工可以将这份备忘录交给民主党捐助者，看看是否有人愿意资助。
Matt's idea to divide Alabama Republicans was to divide the religious right Republicans from the more moderate Republicans.
马特分裂阿拉巴马州共和党人的想法是将宗教右翼共和党人和更温和的共和党人分开。
Roy Moore had always been closely tied to the extra-religious, conservative wing of his party.
罗伊·摩尔一直与党内超宗教的保守派有着密切的联系。
In fact, his political operation depended heavily on Alabama's extensive network of Baptist pastors.
事实上，他的政治运作在很大程度上依赖于阿拉巴马州广泛的浸信会牧师网络。
That pastor network is the backbone of his get-out-the-vote machine.
这个牧师网络是他投票机器的支柱。
On Wednesday nights, Sundays, that's when the Roy Moore pastors push their flock to go vote for Roy Moore.
每周三晚上和周日，罗伊摩尔牧师都会敦促他们的羊群去投票给罗伊摩尔。
That's how it works down here.
这就是这里的运作方式。
Baptists, as Matt wrote, are the largest denomination in the state, over 40% of the population.
正如马特所写，浸信会是该州最大的教派，占人口的 40% 以上。
But--
但是——
Although Baptists are the largest single denomination in Alabama, they are by no means a majority, all right?
虽然浸信会是阿拉巴马州最大的单一教派，但他们绝不占多数，好吗？
So what they are is a very vocal minority.
所以他们是一个非常敢于发声的少数群体。
And, Matt wrote in his memo, the wedge issue to split the Baptists from the more moderate Republicans-- prohibition.
马特在他的备忘录中写道，分裂浸信会与更温和的共和党的楔子问题是禁令。
I know.
我知道。
You're like, prohibition?
你说，禁令？
Against alcohol?
反对酒精？
Didn't we settle that like 100 years ago?
我们不是像100年前那样解决了吗？
But hang on, because Alabama actually has a long history of restrictive alcohol laws.
但请坚持下去，因为阿拉巴马州实际上有着悠久的限制酒精法的历史。
Like, of the 30 counties that make up the northern half of Alabama, 19 counties are dry.
例如，阿拉巴马州北半部的 30 个县中，有 19 个县是干旱县。
Roy Moore's Baptist allies have been all, heck yeah, keep it that way.
罗伊摩尔的浸信会盟友一直都是，哎呀，保持这种状态。
Get behind me, Satan, to which mainstream Republicans have responded, um, no. Matt says, suburban and business-wing-type Republicans have often favored looser alcohol laws.
撒旦，站在我身后，主流共和党人对此的回应是，嗯，不。马特说，郊区和商业翼型共和党人往往赞成更宽松的酒精法。
The business wing of the Republican Party in Alabama was never enthusiastic about Roy Moore in the first place, all right?
阿拉巴马州共和党的商界从一开始就对罗伊摩尔不抱热情，好吗？
If you can get the sort of business-wing Republicans, if you can get the suburban Republican who votes Republican, but he likes to drink his beer on Saturdays while he's watching the football game-- if you can get him to identify Roy Moore with prohibition and moralistic screed-type activity, then they will be less likely to vote for him.
如果你能找到那种商业派共和党人，如果你能找到投票给共和党的郊区共和党人，但他喜欢在周六看足球比赛时喝啤酒——如果你能让他认同罗伊摩尔的禁令和道德长篇大论的活动，那么他们就不太可能投票给他。
What we want is for people to say, gosh, Roy Moore is nuts.
我们想让人们说，天哪，罗伊摩尔疯了。
Roy Moore's followers are nuts, you know?
罗伊摩尔的追随者都是疯子，你知道吗？
These people who are in my party-- you know, I share a party with them, but they're nuts.
我的派对中的这些人——你知道，我和他们一起参加派对，但他们疯了。
There's one more thing to just feel a little less excited about.
还有一件事让人感觉不那么兴奋。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ben Calhoun And exactly what the Russians purportedly did to Democrats in 2016-- stoke their internal divisions to make them feel less motivated.
本·卡尔霍恩 (Ben Calhoun) 据称，俄罗斯人在 2016 年对民主党做了同样的事情——煽动他们的内部分歧，让他们感到动力不足。
Matt's version of that was to create fake groups on social media.
马特的版本是在社交媒体上创建虚假群组。
One would be named The Southern Caller.
其中一个被命名为“南方来电者”。
The other, Dry Alabama.
另一个是干阿拉巴马州。
They'd act like prohibitionist cultural conservatives, enthusiastic about Roy Moore, and hope that they could bum out mainstream Republicans.
他们的行为就像禁酒文化保守派一样，对罗伊·摩尔充满热情，并希望他们能激怒主流共和党人。
You can mirror the activity of 2016 in this sense.
从这个意义上来说，你可以反映 2016 年的活动。
All the Russian activity, you can mirror it if you get Republicans arguing with each other.
如果共和党人互相争论，那么俄罗斯的所有活动都可以反映出来。
The more they argue with each other, and the more Republicans see other Republicans arguing with each other, the less likely they are to vote.
他们彼此争论得越多，共和党人看到其他共和党人互相争论得越多，他们投票的可能性就越小。
When you pitched the idea of Dry Alabama, was there any part of you that had any apprehensions about sort of deploying that kind of strategy?
当您提出“干燥阿拉巴马”的想法时，您是否对部署这种策略有任何顾虑？
You know, by that time, I had already made up my mind.
你知道，那个时候我就已经下定决心了。
Like, I'm ready to pull out all the stops.
就像，我已经准备好全力以赴。
I had made up my mind already that I was willing to create content under a false flag, if you will.
我已经下定决心，如果你愿意的话，我愿意在虚假的旗帜下创建内容。
I was willing to trick Republicans into not voting.
我愿意欺骗共和党人不投票。
That was fine with me.
这对我来说很好。
Matt says, when he sent off his memo, he wasn't sure if people would want to fund his plan.
马特说，当他发出备忘录时，他不确定人们是否愿意资助他的计划。
He was, after all, in the party that had been waving around Michelle Obama's slogan-- when they go low, we go high-- and using that to attack Republicans.
毕竟，他所在的政党一直在围绕米歇尔·奥巴马的口号——当他们走低时，我们走高——并用它来攻击共和党人。
And for a while, Matt heard nothing-- for weeks-- so long that he figured no one wanted to fund his dirty tricks.
有一段时间，马特没有听到任何消息——连续几周——时间太长，以至于他认为没有人愿意资助他的肮脏伎俩。
I was sitting in my living room.
我坐在客厅里。
What was I watching?
我在看什么？
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
I was watching TV.
我正在看电视。
And my phone rang.
我的电话响了。
And I'm told, hey, we got money.
有人告诉我，嘿，我们有钱了。
It was the Democratic operative in DC.
这是华盛顿特区的民主党特工。
"We got money" meant some donors had decided to fund Matt's proposal.
“我们得到了钱”意味着一些捐助者决定资助马特的提案。
Matt's reaction?
马特的反应？
Bam.
嘭。
Ben Calhoun No kidding.
本·卡尔霍恩 别开玩笑。
This is for real?
这是真的吗？
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
This is real.
这是真的。
This is-- this is happening.
这——这正在发生。
OK, cool.
好吧，酷。
The donors put up $100,000.
捐助者捐出了10万美元。
Part of that would pay for a team of people to create these fake conservative groups.
其中一部分将用于支付一群人创建这些假保守派团体的费用。
The rest of the money, most of it, would pay for ads on Facebook to shove what they made into the social media feeds of Alabama Republicans.
剩下的钱，大部分，将用于支付 Facebook 上的广告费用，将他们赚到的钱推送到阿拉巴马州共和党人的社交媒体上。
At this point, there were only 17 days left before the election.
此时，距离大选只剩下17天了。
So they had to go fast.
所以他们必须走得快。
Work started immediately-- bogus email addresses, fake logos.
工作立即开始——伪造的电子邮件地址、伪造的徽标。
The team doing this, I should say-- sort of fascinatingly tiny-- just two people in DC and then Matt in Alabama.
我应该说，做这件事的团队规模小得令人着迷，只有华盛顿特区的两个人和阿拉巴马州的马特。
One of the people in DC, Matt says, was sort of doing oversight, not even super involved.
马特说，华盛顿特区的一个人负责监督，甚至没有超级参与。
The other person in DC created tweets and memes.
华盛顿的另一个人创建了推文和表情包。
Matt did the Facebook posts and the videos.
马特制作了 Facebook 帖子和视频。
The whole group was so small.
整个团体很小。
It kind of makes you realize, you don't need a building full of people to do this kind of thing.
这让你意识到，你不需要一栋挤满人的大楼来做这种事情。
It can be a conspiracy of just two or three.
这可能是两三个人的阴谋。
Matt, as an Alabama native, was kind of the person who the group turned to make the con seem authentic.
马特是阿拉巴马州本地人，该组织向他求助，让这个骗局看起来很真实。
Hey, Matt, how would people say this in Alabama?
嘿，马特，阿拉巴马州的人会怎么说？
How would they say that?
他们会怎么说呢？
Hey, Matt, how do you spell "barbecue" in Alabama?
嘿，马特，你在阿拉巴马州如何拼写“烧烤”？
What-- we want to come across as authentic.
我们希望给人留下真实的印象。
I said, BBQ, or spell it out, barbecue with a C, right?
我说，BBQ，或者拼出来，带C的BBQ，对吧？
Alabamian instead of Alabaman, that sort of thing.
阿拉巴马语而不是阿拉巴曼语之类的。
There were some things that were deemed too much, even by dirty tactic standards.
即使按照肮脏的战术标准，有些事情也被认为太过分了。
Matt pointed out that something that would inevitably get a ton of engagement would be an AR-15 giveaway.
马特指出，AR-15 赠品将不可避免地引起大量关注。
The funder, it turned out, was not OK with a gun giveaway, real or fake.
事实证明，资助者不愿意赠送枪支，无论是真枪还是假枪。
But even if they weren't going to give away an AR-15, there was a lot of room for imagination.
但即使他们不打算赠送 AR-15，也有很大的想象空间。
Like, Matt recruited a woman he knew.
就像，马特招募了一位他认识的女人。
I will just-- for our purposes today, I will call her Sharon.
为了我们今天的目的，我会称她为莎伦。
Matt hired Sharon to do a voiceover on a video that he made for Dry Alabama.
马特聘请莎伦为他为干燥阿拉巴马州制作的视频配音。
She's wonderful.
她很棒。
She's as Alabama as they come.
她就像阿拉巴马州一样。
She has the perfect accent, right?
她的口音很完美，对吧？
The kind of middle Alabama, kind of rapid-clip accent with all the right vowel inflections.
那种阿拉巴马州中部口音，带有所有正确元音变化的快速剪辑口音。
So at the next tailgate party, instead of drinking and succumbing to evil temptation, try thing amazing, Bama-style, alcohol-free cocktail.
因此，在下一次车尾派对上，不要喝酒并屈服于邪恶的诱惑，而是尝试令人惊叹的巴马风格的无酒精鸡尾酒。
Try this moral take on a sinful beverage, a righteous mint julep.
试试这种道德上的罪恶饮料，正义的薄荷冰镇啤酒。
Place mint leaves in an old-fashioned glass.
将薄荷叶放入老式玻璃杯中。
Pour in lemon juice and sugar.
倒入柠檬汁和糖。
And mix with a spoon until the sugar's completely dissolved.
然后用勺子搅拌直至糖完全溶解。
This video, just to say, does have the genuine lo-fi feel of those try-this-recipe videos that you see online all the time.
只是说，这个视频确实具有您一直在网上看到的那些尝试此食谱视频的真正低保真感觉。
Fill the cup with ice and pour sparkling water over the top.
将杯子装满冰块，然后将苏打水倒在上面。
Garnish with a sprig of mint.
用薄荷枝装饰。
And you've got some smooth as fine cotton.
你会得到一些光滑如细棉的东西。
Pledge your support for a Dry Alabama today.
今天就承诺支持干旱阿拉巴马州。
And join our crusade for a Dry Alabama.
加入我们的干燥阿拉巴马运动吧。
At one point, talking about all this, Matt said, some of this feels new.
马特说，在谈到这一切时，有一次，其中一些感觉很新鲜。
But in his mind, it's actually not, really.
但在他看来，事实并非如此。
If you remember, Matt did radio intelligence in the Army.
如果你还记得的话，马特在军队里负责无线电情报工作。
He told me, one tactic they teach you is something called spoofing.
他告诉我，他们教你的一种策略是欺骗。
You find the enemy's radio frequency.
你找到敌人的无线电频率。
And then you mimic the voice of the people on it.
然后你模仿上面人们的声音。
And you give out bad information.
而且你还给出了不良信息。
Then, he read a tweet from Dry Alabama.
然后，他读到了阿拉巴马州的一条推文。
"Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." That's from First Peter, Matt told me.
“务要谨守，警醒，因为你们的仇敌魔鬼，如同吼叫的狮子，遍地游行，寻找可吞吃的人。”马特告诉我，这是《彼得前书》中的内容。
Doug Jones comes from behind.
道格·琼斯从后面赶来。
And now, CNN projects, he will be the next Senator-- first time in 25 years that a Democrat--
现在，CNN 预测，他将成为下一任参议员——25 年来首次由民主党人——
More than 1.3 million people voted in the election.
超过130万人在选举中投票。
Doug Jones defeated Roy Moore by just 22,000 votes.
道格·琼斯 (Doug Jones) 仅以 22,000 票击败罗伊·摩尔 (Roy Moore)。
Altogether, $51 million was spent on the race, which unleashed a hurricane of TV ads, armies of canvassers, meaning it's just impossible to gauge what effect Matt's thing had.
这场竞选总共花费了 5100 万美元，引发了电视广告飓风和拉票大军，这意味着我们无法衡量马特的东西产生了什么影响。
Matt's team considered the project a success, though.
不过，马特的团队认为该项目是成功的。
On a wrap-up call, he was told, with just $100,000, the team's content was seen 4.6 million times, their videos watched hundreds of thousands of times.
在一次总结电话中，他被告知，只需 10 万美元，该团队的内容就被浏览了 460 万次，他们的视频被观看了数十万次。
Everybody was happy with those numbers.
每个人都对这些数字感到满意。
But people also felt like the whole thing was a success in the sense that they'd pulled off the fakery without getting caught.
但人们也觉得整个事情是成功的，因为他们在没有被抓到的情况下完成了造假。
That was part of what they were testing.
这是他们测试的一部分。
I'm just going to confess here that I'm somebody who's troubled by the culture of our politics right now.
我只是要在这里承认，我现在是一个被我们的政治文化所困扰的人。
I believe people should feel a societal pressure to win with ideas and inspiration and that playing dirty should be looked down on, because playing dirty, I think, encourages suspicion and cynicism.
我相信人们应该感受到用想法和灵感取胜的社会压力，并且应该鄙视肮脏的行为，因为我认为，肮脏的行为会鼓励怀疑和愤世嫉俗。
And that's bad for everybody.
这对每个人都不好。
Maybe because of that, when I went to see Matt, I half thought that because he spent so much time outraged about this kind of deceptive and scuzzy politics, that maybe, after having some time to think it over, he'd end up with some kind of buyer's remorse.
也许正因为如此，当我去见马特时，我一半认为，因为他花了这么多时间对这种欺骗性和肮脏的政治感到愤怒，也许，在有时间思考之后，他最终会感到某种买家的悔恨。
Like, I drank so much.
比如说，我喝了很多酒。
What did I say?
我说什么了？
Doesn't it feel like, especially in-- you know, during the presidency of Donald Trump, that the norms are only the norms if most people adhere to them, you know?
难道你不觉得，尤其是在唐纳德·特朗普担任总统期间，只有大多数人都遵守这些规范才算是规范，你知道吗？
Like--
就像——
Well, what is the norm here?
那么，这里的标准是什么？
The norm here is that Democrats are supposed to go high and get kicked in the knees.
这里的常态是，民主党人应该高高在上，然后被踢膝盖。
That's the norm.
这是常态。
The norm is that Republicans play dirty and win.
共和党人玩弄肮脏手段并获胜是常态。
Is that the norm that we're supposed to preserve?
这是我们应该维护的规范吗？
Because if that's the norm that we're supposed to preserve, let that norm die, I say.
因为如果这是我们应该保留的规范，那就让这个规范消失吧，我说。
Burn it down.
把它烧掉。
Burn it to the ground.
把它烧到地上。
So the core of what I hear you saying is that you don't think that it's something that you can combat by example and just say, we're going to refuse to win that way.
所以我听到你说的核心是，你不认为这是你可以通过例子来对抗的事情，然后说，我们将拒绝以这种方式获胜。
Oh, look at me.
哦，看着我。
I have clean hands and clean clothes, and I'm standing above you in a shining light, and I don't have any power.
我双手干净，衣服干净，站在你的上方，光芒四射，但我没有任何力量。
I can't actually make any changes.
我实际上无法做出任何改变。
But don't I look good?
但我看起来不好吗？
And isn't that the important thing?
这不是最重要的吗？
[LAUGHS] Ben Calhoun It sounds so harsh when you put it that way.
[笑] Ben Calhoun 这么说听起来很刺耳。
[LAUGHS] Ben Calhoun I'm not about to referee Matt's idea that Republicans play dirtier.
[笑] 本·卡尔霍恩 我不打算批评马特关于共和党人玩得更肮脏的观点。
What I do think is important is whether these tactics will continue to spread.
我认为重要的是这些策略是否会继续蔓延。
Over the last few months, there's been excellent reporting about a number of digital strategies tried out by Democrats in this Alabama race in addition to Matt's.
在过去的几个月里，除了马特之外，还有关于民主党人在阿拉巴马州竞选中尝试的许多数字策略的精彩报道。
In one, Democrats created fake Russian bots to make it look like Russians were helping Roy Moore.
其中，民主党人制造了假俄罗斯机器人，让俄罗斯人看起来像是在帮助罗伊·摩尔。
In another, a company microtargeted voters on social media, sent them messages it claims drove up Democratic turnout by 4% and drove down Republican turnout by over 2%.
在另一起事件中，一家公司在社交媒体上针对选民进行了微定位，向他们发送了声称将民主党投票率提高了 4% 并将共和党投票率降低了 2% 以上的信息。
Senator Doug Jones, I should say, has said he disapproves, knew nothing about this stuff.
我应该说，参议员道格·琼斯表示他不赞成，对这些东西一无所知。
He's called for an investigation.
他被要求进行调查。
From talking to Democratic fundraisers, I can tell you for sure, there's plenty of donors who don't want any part of this kind of thing.
通过与民主党筹款人交谈，我可以肯定地告诉你，有很多捐助者不希望参与此类事情。
But there's definitely a portion, I hear, who say, yeah, it's time.
但我听到，肯定有一部分人说，是的，是时候了。
They're ready to throw money at stuff like this.
他们准备在这样的事情上砸钱。
Matt says, he thinks, when it comes to these kind of dirty tactics, the situation is going to have to get worse before it gets better, because in our gridlocked system, you won't get regulations against this stuff until both parties are fed up with it, which, that sounds like a real bummer to me.
马特说，他认为，当涉及到这些肮脏的策略时，情况在好转之前必须先变得更糟，因为在我们陷入僵局的系统中，除非双方都厌倦了，否则不会针对这些东西制定法规，这对我来说听起来真是太糟糕了。
But I have to admit, there's a logic to that.
但我不得不承认，这是有逻辑的。
For his part, Matt's not going to stop, at least if someone will pay for him to keep doing things like this.
就马特而言，他不会停止，至少如果有人愿意付钱让他继续做这样的事情的话。
If you want to see the memo that led to his misinformation campaign, you can go read it yourself these days.
如果你想看导致他的错误信息活动的备忘录，你这几天可以自己去读一下。
Matt's posted it on his LinkedIn profile.
马特已将其发布在他的 LinkedIn 个人资料上。
He wants to get hired to do more stuff just like this.
他希望受聘做更多这样的事情。
Ben Calhoun is one of the producers of our show.
本·卡尔霍恩是我们节目的制片人之一。
Our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis.
我们今天的节目由 Dana Chivvis 制作。
The people who put a show together includes Elna Baker, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Aviva DeKornfeld, Jarrett Floyd, Damien Graef, Seth Lind, Lina Misitzis, Katherine Rae Mondo, Nadia Reiman, Alissa Ship, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.
策划这场演出的人员包括 Elna Baker、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Aviva DeKornfeld、Jarrett Floyd、Damien Graef、Seth Lind、Lina Misitzis、Katherine Rae Mondo、Nadia Reiman、Alissa Ship、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。
Our managing editor is David Kestenbaum.
我们的总编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Special thanks today to Eddie Hedge, Kenneth Anderson, Steve Kolowich, Jesse Walker, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Melissa Ryan, Joe Stokes, Brian McCabe, Sarah Koenig, Joseph Parent, Peter Mondo, Whitney Phillips, the St. Louis County Police Department, the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department, the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office, John Larson at St. Louis Public Radio, and Missouri State Representative Maria Chappelle-Nadal.
今天特别感谢 Eddie Hedge、Kenneth Anderson、Steve Kolowich、Jesse Walker、Katherine Mangu-Ward、Melissa Ryan、Joe Stokes、Brian McCabe、Sarah Koenig、Joseph Parent、Peter Mondo、Whitney Phillips、圣路易斯县警察局、圣路易斯大都会警察局、圣路易斯县法医办公室、圣路易斯公共广播电台的 John Larson 和密苏里州代表 Maria查佩尔-纳达尔。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 600 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Special thanks as always to our program's cofounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地特别感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he bought an obedience book for his dog.
你知道，他给他的狗买了一本服从书。
I don't think he knows how to use it.
我认为他不知道如何使用它。
He just basically put the book on the ground next to her and told her--
他只是把书放在她旁边的地上然后告诉她——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。