670: Beware the Jabberwock - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #670 | February 5, 2021 670: Beware the Jabberwock Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 670 集 | 2021 年 2 月 5 日 670：小心 Jabberwock 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass When he wants to explain to people what his life is like these days, Lenny sometimes tells this story.

序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 当他想向人们解释他这些天的生活是什么样子时，莱尼有时会讲这个故事。

On election night in 2016, he says he went to a bar, got a seat near a TV, ordered a beer, and started making small talk.

他说，2016 年选举之夜，他去了一家酒吧，在电视机旁找了个座位，点了一杯啤酒，然后开始闲聊。

And I turned to the guy to my right, and I said, "Did you vote"?

我转向我右边的那个人，我说：“你投票了吗？”

And from there, he went into a long explanation about-- just some shadow government ideas, and whether voting makes a difference.

从那里开始，他对一些影子政府的想法以及投票是否会产生影响进行了长篇解释。

And probably 10 minutes into it, he was talking about mass shootings, and then eventually Sandy Hook.

大概 10 分钟后，他就谈到了大规模枪击事件，最后谈到了桑迪·胡克。

Sandy Hook, of course, where a gunman killed 20 children, all in first grade, as well as seven adults.

当然是桑迪胡克，一名枪手杀死了 20 名一年级儿童以及 7 名成年人。

This random stranger then started telling Lenny this particular story about Sandy Hook.

然后，这个随机的陌生人开始向莱尼讲述这个关于桑迪·胡克的特殊故事。

He thought the whole shooting was fake.

他认为整个枪击事件都是假的。

It had to be fake, he said, because one of those first graders also showed up as a victim in a second mass shooting, all the way over in Pakistan.

他说，这一定是假的，因为其中一名一年级学生也成为了第二次大规模枪击事件的受害者，而且地点远在巴基斯坦。

In the corners of the internet where people trade Sandy Hook conspiracy stories, this is a key piece of evidence that Sandy Hook was not real.

在人们交换桑迪·胡克阴谋故事的互联网角落里，这是证明桑迪·胡克不真实的关键证据。

Of course, it was real.

当然，这是真实的。

And what happened in Pakistan was, in reality, about two years after Sandy Hook.

事实上，巴基斯坦发生的事情是在桑迪·胡克事件发生两年后发生的。

The Taliban gunned down more than 100 kids there.

塔利班在那里枪杀了 100 多名儿童。

And there was a public vigil, and at the public vigil, probably as a sign of solidarity with other kids who had died in school shootings, mourners had this photo of a boy from Sandy Hook, smiling and wearing a Spider-Man shirt under a corduroy jacket with a furry collar.

还有一场公众守夜活动，在公众守夜活动上，哀悼者们拍了一张来自桑迪胡克的男孩的照片，他微笑着，在毛领灯芯绒夹克下穿着蜘蛛侠衬衫，这可能是为了表达对其他在学校枪击事件中丧生的孩子的声援。

Sandy Hook deniers saw that in the coverage, and they pounced.

桑迪·胡克否认者在报道中看到了这一点，他们发起了猛扑。

"Did he die twice?" "Did he die at all?" So the guy at the bar with Lenny is rattling through all this Pakistan stuff.

“他死过两次吗？” “他到底死了吗？”酒吧里和莱尼一起的那个人正在喋喋不休地讲这些巴基斯坦的事情。

And then, as Lenny explained to one of my co-workers, Miki Meek, the guy mentions the kid's name-- Noah Pozner.

然后，正如莱尼向我的一位同事米基·米克（Miki Meek）解释的那样，那家伙提到了孩子的名字——诺亚·波兹纳（Noah Pozner）。

I didn't really need to hear much more than that.

我真的不需要听到更多。

I just needed to shut him down, basically.

基本上我只是需要让他关闭。

So what did you do?

那么你做了什么？

Lenny Pozner I took out my driver's license, and I said, "Look who you're talking to.

莱尼·波兹纳（Lenny Pozner） 我拿出我的驾驶执照，然后说：“看看你在和谁说话。

You know, show some respect."

你知道，表现出一些尊重。”

The boy in the photo was Lenny's son, Noah, who was six when he died.

照片中的男孩是莱尼的儿子诺亚，他去世时只有六岁。

Does he connect it, or-- Lenny Pozner Oh, sure.

他会连接吗，或者——莱尼·波兹纳（Lenny Pozner）哦，当然。

He connected it instantly, yeah.

他立即连接起来，是的。

And he just became more agitated.

他只是变得更加焦躁。

Very angered.

非常生气。

Went outside and maybe had a cigarette, came back, yelled at me some more.

出去抽了根烟，回来后又对我大喊大叫。

"Oh my god.

“天啊。

How much did they pay you?

他们付给你多少钱？

How can you do this?" He was committed to his belief.

你怎么能这么做？”他忠于自己的信念。

I was the villain.

我是恶棍。

People like this man at the bar pretty much redefined everything about the way Lenny lives his life.

像酒吧里的这个男人这样的人几乎重新定义了莱尼生活方式的一切。

Where he lives, how he lives.

他住在哪里，他就怎样生活。

He runs into these hoaxers in person, and pretty much every day online.

他亲自遇到这些骗子，而且几乎每天都在网上遇到。

They think the government has paid him millions to play the part of a grieving dad.

他们认为政府付给他数百万美元来扮演悲伤的父亲。

In their minds, Lenny is the sick one.

在他们看来，莱尼就是有病的人。

Noah wasn't ever even his kid.

诺亚甚至都不是他的孩子。

And the person who has popularized these theories more than anybody is Alex Jones, who runs the website Infowars, and who pushed these theories with his radio show, and his YouTube videos.

比任何人都更普及这些理论的人是亚历克斯·琼斯（Alex Jones），他经营着 Infowars 网站，并通过他的广播节目和 YouTube 视频来推广这些理论。

Alex Jones made his name right after 9/11, promoting the idea that 9/11 was an attack orchestrated by our own government.

亚历克斯·琼斯 (Alex Jones) 在 9/11 事件后一举成名，宣传 9/11 事件是由我们自己的政府精心策划的攻击。

With Sandy Hook, Jones said many times that he did not believe the shooting was real.

对于桑迪·胡克，琼斯多次表示他不相信枪击事件是真实的。

Sandy Hook is a synthetic, completely fake, with actors, in my view, manufactured.

桑迪·胡克是一个合成物，完全是假的，在我看来，演员是被制造出来的。

I couldn't believe it at first.

一开始我简直不敢相信。

I knew they had actors there, clearly.

我清楚地知道他们那里有演员。

But I thought they killed some real kids.

但我认为他们杀了一些真正的孩子。

And it just shows how bold they are, that they clearly used actors.

这恰恰表明他们有多么大胆，他们显然使用了演员。

He's claimed that the government, or some shadowy global forces, are the ones who hired these actors.

他声称政府或一些神秘的全球势力是雇佣这些演员的人。

He and the other hoaxers call them "crisis actors." It's like this whole alternate world that exists right next to the real one.

他和其他骗子称他们为“危机演员”。这就像整个替代世界就存在于真实世界旁边。

It makes life miserable for parents like Lenny.

这让像莱尼这样的父母的生活变得悲惨。

But unlike most parents in that situation, Lenny decided to go all action hero on the hoaxers, and on Alex Jones.

但与大多数处于这种情况的父母不同的是，莱尼决定全力以赴对付恶作剧者和亚历克斯·琼斯。

Action hero, I will do what needs to get done to defend my family, damn the consequences.

动作英雄，我会尽一切努力来保卫我的家人，不管后果如何。

Lenny is resourceful.

莱尼足智多谋。

He is dogged.

他很顽强。

He does not give up.

他不放弃。

In this world that we live in of hoaxers and trolls, he has marked out a path that I think few of us would ever want to take.

在我们生活的这个充满骗子和巨魔的世界里，他开辟了一条我认为我们很少有人愿意走的道路。

But it is kind of amazing to hear what it entails.

但听到它的含义真是令人惊奇。

Today on our show, we have Lenny's story.

今天我们的节目里有莱尼的故事。

And then we have a story from writer Jon Ronson, where he also tries to untangle where this alternate hoaxer world ends and the real one begins.

然后我们有作家乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）的故事，他也试图理清这个交替的骗子世界的终结和真正的世界的开始。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Down the Rabbit Hole.

第一幕，掉进兔子洞。

So our story about the transformation of Lenny Pozner was put together by Miki Meek.

因此，我们关于 Lenny Pozner 转变的故事是由 Miki Meek 整理的。

I should say there's some curse words in today's program that we have unbeeped for this podcast version of the show.

我应该说，今天的节目中有一些脏话，我们在这个播客版本的节目中没有发出提示音。

If you prefer a beeped version, it is at our website.

如果您更喜欢蜂鸣声版本，请访问我们的网站。

Here's Miki.

这是米基。

The first time Lenny became aware of any conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook was about a month after the shooting.

莱尼第一次意识到有关桑迪·胡克的阴谋论是在枪击事件发生一个月后。

He'd been on a media blackout, trying to get through Noah's funeral and taking care of his two young girls.

他一直在媒体封锁中，试图度过诺亚的葬礼并照顾他的两个小女儿。

They were also at the elementary school that morning.

那天早上他们也在小学。

And one of them was Noah's twin sister.

其中之一是诺亚的双胞胎妹妹。

She hid in a separate classroom.

她躲在一个单独的教室里。

But one day, Lenny finally felt ready to go online, read the news, googled his son's name.

但有一天，莱尼终于准备好上网，阅读新闻，用谷歌搜索他儿子的名字。

Infowars was coming up on search results.

Infowars 出现在搜索结果中。

The forums.

论坛。

The forums.

论坛。

Lenny Pozner Yeah.

莱尼·波兹纳 是的。

And it's just completely disgusting.

这真是太恶心了。

In just over 30 days, this whole world had been invented.

仅仅三十多天，整个世界就被发明了。

And one of the central pieces of it involved Lenny's wife.

其中的核心部分之一涉及莱尼的妻子。

Infowars fans were dissecting this one interview she did on CNN.

Infowars 的粉丝们正在剖析她在 CNN 接受的一次采访。

It was with Anderson Cooper just days after Noah's funeral.

就在诺亚葬礼几天后，安德森·库珀在场。

What do you want people to know about Noah?

关于诺亚，你想让人们了解什么？

He loved running and playing with his siblings, and he loved bubble baths and fireflies.

他喜欢和兄弟姐妹一起跑步和玩耍，也喜欢泡泡浴和萤火虫。

And he loved eating the inside of Oreo cookies.

他喜欢吃奥利奥饼干的里面。

And he played the video Gangnam Style ad nauseum.

他还播放了令人作呕的《江南Style》视频。

I understand he used to tell his siblings that he managed a taco factory.

据我所知，他曾经告诉他的兄弟姐妹，他经营着一家玉米卷工厂。

Yes, that he was going to split his time as an adult between managing a taco factory and being an astronaut.

是的，他成年后将把自己的时间分配在管理一家玉米卷工厂和成为一名宇航员之间。

The comments online were gross and flimsy.

网上的评论既粗鄙又脆弱。

Why didn't she sound sadder?

为什么她的语气没有变得更悲伤？

Why would she put on lipstick if she was really grieving?

如果她真的很悲伤，为什么还要涂口红呢？

And wasn't she too old to be the mom of a six-year-old kid?

而且她做一个六岁孩子的妈妈是不是太老了？

They were convinced that something was up.

他们确信出事了。

Most of the time, I'm kind of numb.

大多数时候，我都有点麻木。

I think every mom out there can relate to the fact of how long it takes to create a baby.

我想每个妈妈都能体会到生孩子需要多长时间这一事实。

Those nine months that you watch every ultrasound, and every heartbeat.

在这九个月里，你观察每一次超声波检查和每一次心跳。

And it takes nine months to create a human being, and it takes seconds for an AR-15 to take that away from the surface of this earth.

创造一个人类需要九个月的时间，而 AR-15 只需要几秒钟就能将其从地球表面带走。

This reference to guns was another aha moment for conspiracy theorists.

对于阴谋论者来说，对枪支的提及是另一个顿悟时刻。

Some of them started digging into Veronique's life, looked up her maiden name, and then said, hey, look at this.

他们中的一些人开始深入挖掘维罗妮克的生活，查找她的婚前姓氏，然后说，嘿，看看这个。

There's a Swiss diplomat who has her exact same name.

有一位瑞士外交官与她同名。

And even fishier, this diplomat once went to an arms control summit at the United Nations.

更可疑的是，这位外交官曾经参加过联合国军控峰会。

So maybe they're the same person.

所以也许他们是同一个人。

Maybe she's one of those elite globalists trying to make guns look bad, so President Obama can repeal the Second Amendment.

也许她是那些试图让枪支看起来很糟糕的精英全球主义者之一，这样奥巴马总统就可以废除第二修正案。

Suddenly, every real sentiment Veronique shared about Noah was getting reinterpreted as lines from a sinister script.

突然间，维罗妮克分享的关于诺亚的每一个真实情感都被重新解释为邪恶剧本中的台词。

They were here, and they mattered.

他们在这里，而且很重要。

They all have families.

他们都有家庭。

And they mattered.

它们很重要。

And the kicker that cinched it for these conspiracy theorists?

是什么让这些阴谋论者锁定了胜利？

Anderson Cooper's nose.

安德森·库珀的鼻子。

There's this moment when the tip of his nose disappears because of a digital glitch in the video-- what CNN says was normal interference that happens with a live satellite feed.

就在这一刻，由于视频中的数字故障，他的鼻尖消失了——CNN 称这是实时卫星直播中发生的正常干扰。

It's just a couple seconds, but hoaxers wouldn't let it go.

虽然只有几秒钟的时间，但骗子却不肯放过。

They said that it's a green screen, or a blue screen, or whatever.

他们说这是绿屏，或者蓝屏，或者其他什么。

So that was a fake interview, and Veronique was a participant of a fake, staged CNN interview.

所以那是一次假采访，维罗妮克是 CNN 一场假采访的参与者。

That conspiracy theory was all over YouTube, and it was all over YouTube with Noah's image.

这个阴谋论在 YouTube 上随处可见，而且还伴随着诺亚的形象在 YouTube 上随处可见。

I've talked to parents who've lost kids in other mass shootings, and they've all been blindsided by online harassment from conspiracy theorists.

我曾与在其他大规模枪击事件中失去孩子的父母交谈过，他们都被阴谋论者的网上骚扰弄得措手不及。

The crisis actor claim is so common now these attacks usually start almost immediately after victims are IDed in the media.

危机行动者的说法如此普遍，现在这些攻击通常在受害者在媒体上被识别后立即开始。

And parents who go on TV and talk about gun control, like Veronique, they get it the worst.

而像维罗妮克这样在电视上谈论枪支管制的父母，他们的感受最糟糕。

Sandy Hook is when this really took off.

桑迪·胡克 (Sandy Hook) 正是这种技术真正起飞的时候。

Families get stuck fending off all this crazy hate by themselves.

家庭只能靠自己来抵御所有这些疯狂的仇恨。

There just aren't that many resources for them, because law enforcement still hasn't figured out how to deal with most cyber harassment, and the tech companies aren't much help.

他们没有那么多资源，因为执法部门还没有弄清楚如何处理大多数网络骚扰，而科技公司也没有多大帮助。

So most families just try to ignore the conspiracy theorists, and hope they'll eventually go away.

因此，大多数家庭只是试图忽视阴谋论者，并希望他们最终会消失。

And that's what Lenny did for a while.

莱尼有一段时间就是这样做的。

His life was a wreck.

他的生活一团糟。

But after about a year and a half, they were still at it, and he couldn't let it go anymore.

但大约一年半后，他们仍然如此，他不能再放手了。

I realized that grieving requires a calmness, and a silence.

我意识到悲伤需要冷静和沉默。

And all of this material was a distraction for me, and it was noise.

所有这些材料都会分散我的注意力，而且都是噪音。

And I needed to handle that noise, so that I could have the silence and calm that I needed.

我需要处理那些噪音，这样我才能拥有我需要的沉默和平静。

There's this photo I love of Lenny, with his arm wrapped around Noah.

我很喜欢这张莱尼的照片，他的手臂搂着诺亚。

He's got a walrus mustache, and he's kneeling on a trampoline with a soft smile.

他留着海象般的小胡子，跪在蹦床上，脸上挂着温柔的微笑。

It's spring, and Noah has all this big, brown hair, fat cheeks.

春天来了，诺亚有着又大又棕色的头发，胖乎乎的脸颊。

He's snuggling his whole body into Lenny's chest.

他把整个身体依偎在莱尼的胸口里。

Lenny's got tons of family photos like these, posted them in an online memorial he made for Noah right after he died.

莱尼有大量这样的家庭照片，在诺亚死后立即将它们发布在他为诺亚制作的在线纪念馆中。

The Sandy Hook deniers downloaded them, and repurposed them into cruel memes.

桑迪胡克否认者下载了它们，并将它们重新用于残酷的模因。

Wrote "fake" across Noah's face, took a picture of his headstone and photoshopped under his name, "is not buried here." Photos of his daughters were circulating, too.

在诺亚的脸上写下了“假”，拍了一张他的墓碑的照片，并在他的名字下进行了Photoshop处理，“没有埋在这里。”他女儿们的照片也在流传。

He couldn't just leave them out there on the web with the trolls.

他不能把它们和巨魔一起留在网络上。

Lenny got consumed with thinking about how to take control of the situation, how to extract Noah and his family from all this.

莱尼全神贯注于思考如何控制局势，如何将诺亚和他的家人从这一切中解救出来。

The internet didn't scare him.

互联网并没有吓到他。

It was actually his comfort zone.

这实际上是他的舒适区。

He ran his own IT business.

他经营着自己的 IT 业务。

He was not the kind of guy who sat around and complained about how something didn't work.

他不是那种坐在那里抱怨事情不起作用的人。

He was the guy who fixed stuff.

他是那个修理东西的人。

So you need to find what the problem is, and then find what your solution is, and then start getting closer to that solution, step by step.

因此，您需要找到问题所在，然后找到解决方案，然后开始一步一步地接近该解决方案。

Otherwise the problem is overwhelming, and then you just want someone else to fix it for you.

否则，问题是巨大的，然后你就希望别人来帮你解决它。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Pozner You have to track down where you can make a difference, and get closer to being less broken.

莱尼·波兹纳（Lenny Pozner） 你必须找出你可以在哪些方面有所作为，并越来越接近不那么破碎。

There was one other thing that made Lenny especially qualified to deal with the conspiracy theorists.

还有一件事让莱尼特别有资格对付阴谋论者。

He used to enjoy those theories himself.

他自己过去也很喜欢这些理论。

The classic fun ones-- Bigfoot, Loch Ness, Area 51, NASA faking the moon landing.

经典有趣的——大脚怪、尼斯湖、51 区、NASA 假装登月。

Like, what's the fun of it?

比如说，这有什么乐趣？

Lenny Pozner It's suspending your disbelief.

莱尼·波兹纳：它正在消除你的怀疑。

It's like sitting down and watching a science fiction movie, and then looking at the what if.

这就像坐下来看一部科幻电影，然后考虑假设。

And it's just fun, especially if there's no price to pay in your life, and there's no cost to that way of thinking, then it's just a game.

这很有趣，特别是如果你的生活不需要付出任何代价，并且这种思维方式没有成本，那么它只是一个游戏。

Sometimes he even listened to Alex Jones in his car.

有时他甚至在车里听亚历克斯·琼斯的歌。

And in fact, just a month after the shootings, when Lenny first saw those things on Alex Jones's website, he tried to reach out.

事实上，就在枪击事件发生一个月后，当莱尼第一次在亚历克斯·琼斯的网站上看到这些东西时，他试图联系。

He found a general Infowars email address, and shot him off this message.

他找到了 Infowars 的通用电子邮件地址，并拒绝了他的这条消息。

"Alex, I'm very disappointed to see how many people are directing more anger at families that lost their children in Newtown, accusing us of being actors.

“亚历克斯，我非常失望地看到有这么多人将更多的愤怒指向在纽敦失去孩子的家庭，指责我们是演员。

Haven't we had our share of pain and suffering?

难道我们没有经历过痛苦和磨难吗？

I used to enjoy listening to your shows.

我以前很喜欢听你的节目。

Now I feel that your type of show created these hateful people, and they need to be reeled in!" Exclamation point.

现在我觉得你们的节目造就了这些可恨的人，他们需要被卷入！”感叹号。

About an hour later, he heard back from Jones' staff.

大约一个小时后，他收到了琼斯工作人员的回复。

And they responded with "We have not supported the crisis actor claim.

他们回应道：“我们不支持危机行动者的说法。

We insist that it's a true event." On and on.

我们坚持认为这是真实事件。”不断地。

This wasn't true.

这不是真的。

Jones did spread the crisis actor theory.

琼斯确实传播了危机行动者理论。

It was on his website at the time, and he started talking about it a lot.

当时它出现在他的网站上，他开始经常谈论它。

That CNN interview with Veronique, he talked about it all the time.

CNN 采访 Veronique 时，他一直在谈论这件事。

Folks, we've got video of Anderson Cooper with clear blue screen out there.

各位，我们有安德森·库珀的视频，上面有清晰的蓝屏。

He's not there in the town square.

他不在城镇广场。

We've got people clearly coming up and laughing and then doing the fake crying.

我们看到有人明显走过来大笑，然后假装哭泣。

We've clearly got people where it's actors playing different parts of different people.

显然，我们有演员扮演不同人的不同角色。

I've looked at it, and undoubtedly there's a cover-up.

我看过了，毫无疑问，其中有隐情。

There's actors.

有演员。

They're manipulating.

他们在操纵。

They've been caught lying.

他们被发现撒谎了。

And they were pre-planning before it, and then rolled out with it.

他们之前就进行了预先规划，然后就推出了。

What Lenny wanted was a one-on-one conversation with Jones, but it didn't happen.

莱尼想要的是与琼斯进行一对一的交谈，但这并没有发生。

There were a few emails after that, asking me to prove that I'm really who I am, and leading on to get me on the show.

之后又收到了几封电子邮件，要求我证明我确实是我自己，并邀请我参加节目。

Lenny didn't want that.

莱尼不想这样。

He's very private and very reserved, a behind the scenes kind of guy.

他非常注重隐私，非常保守，是一个幕后人物。

He's careful when he talks.

他说话的时候很小心。

Things like "no comment," "that's off the record," or "do I have to talk about my personal life?" That came up all the time during our interview.

比如“无可奉告”、“这是不公开的”或者“我必须谈论我的个人生活吗？”在我们的采访中，这个问题一直被提及。

One of the ground rules he gave is that I had to run his quotes past him and his lawyer, because he's worried about his own safety, if his words were misconstrued.

他给出的基本规则之一是，我必须将他的引述转述给他和他的律师，因为如果他的话被误解，他会担心自己的安全。

Also, he's fighting some of the conspiracy theories in court.

此外，他还在法庭上与一些阴谋论作斗争。

We agreed to his terms.

我们同意了他的条件。

And in the end, he didn't ask me to edit any of his quotes.

最后，他没有要求我编辑他的任何引言。

But he did request that we remove one personal detail, and we did.

但他确实要求我们删除一项个人信息，我们照做了。

Now, a year and a half after he reached out to Alex Jones, he decided to try a new tactic.

现在，在他联系亚历克斯·琼斯一年半后，他决定尝试一种新策略。

He'd go directly to Jones his followers and the other Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists.

他会直接去找琼斯、他的追随者和其他桑迪胡克阴谋论者。

I think his approach was, "I'm going to make them see the light."

我认为他的方法是，“我要让他们看到光明。”

This is Veronique.

这是维罗妮克。

She and Lenny were separated when the shooting happened, but were still very much in each other's lives.

枪击事件发生时，她和莱尼已经分居，但仍深深融入彼此的生活中。

They decided to start releasing documents about Noah.

他们决定开始公布有关诺亚的文件。

Report cards, school photos.

成绩单、学校照片。

He even disclosed Noah's death certificate, which was a difficult decision that we made, but figured, after a while of providing this hard copy convincing evidence that reason would prevail, and they would say, "oh, OK, yeah, you've made your point.

他甚至披露了诺亚的死亡证明，这是我们做出的一个艰难的决定，但我们认为，在提供了这份令人信服的硬拷贝证据一段时间后，理性会占上风，他们会说，“哦，好吧，是的，你已经表达了你的观点。

I'm going to come around."

我会过来的。”

Lenny also decided he'd answer anyone's questions.

莱尼还决定他会回答任何人的问题。

He wanted to join this notorious Facebook group called "Sandy Hook Hoax." It's where a lot of the deniers were congregating and sharing theories.

他想加入这个臭名昭著的 Facebook 群组，名为“Sandy Hook Hoax”。这是许多否认者聚集并分享理论的地方。

The cover photo on their page looked like it came straight out of a horror movie.

他们页面上的封面照片看起来就像直接来自恐怖电影。

A corpse-like girl with a "keep quiet" finger in front of her mouth.

一个像尸体一样的女孩，嘴前竖着一根“保持安静”的手指。

The administrator of the Facebook group immediately let him in.

Facebook群组的管理员立即让他加入。

Do you identify yourself as like, "I am a father?"

你是否认为自己是“我是一名父亲”？

They knew who I was.

他们知道我是谁。

They knew who I was instantly, yeah.

他们立刻就知道我是谁了，是的。

To me, it seems so crazy to even go there.

对我来说，去那里似乎太疯狂了。

Like, this doesn't exactly sound like a group of people who'd want to listen to you.

就像，这听起来不像是一群愿意听你说话的人。

People who are conspiracy-minded see these tragedies unfold on the internet or on television.

有阴谋论的人会在互联网或电视上看到这些悲剧上演。

They still feel separate from these events.

他们仍然感到与这些事件分离。

And I considered that bridging that gap could be an important step.

我认为弥合这一差距可能是重要的一步。

That's right.

这是正确的。

That's right.

这是正确的。

And so here I am.

所以我就在这里。

I'm the person.

我就是那个人。

So let let's see what happens.

让我们看看会发生什么。

"Why weren't these children rushed to hospitals?" "Why wasn't anything done?" "Why aren't you suing the EMTs?" Or "why aren't you doing this?" "Why wasn't a rescue helicopter called from Hartford?" And I started to recognize some of the patterns that were there.

“为什么这些孩子没有被送往医院？” “为什么什么也没做？” “你为什么不起诉急救人员？”或者“你为什么不这样做？” “为什么没有从哈特福德呼叫救援直升机？”我开始认识到其中的一些模式。

There were the people you'd expect in a conspiracy group-- anti-gun control people, anti-government people, but also parents.

阴谋团体中有些人是你所期望的——反枪支管制人士、反政府人士，还有家长。

They were young parents with small children, and they just couldn't wrap their minds around the reality that an adult can look at children in their eyes, and pump bullets into their head.

他们是带着小孩的年轻父母，他们无法接受这样一个现实：成年人可以看着孩子的眼睛，然后把子弹射进他们的脑袋。

They just can't deal with that.

他们就是无法应对这个问题。

The conversation on this Facebook group quickly got ugly and abusive.

这个 Facebook 群组上的对话很快就变得丑陋且充满辱骂。

Some of the members started using anti-Semitic slurs.

一些成员开始使用反犹太主义诽谤。

Lenny was trying everything to keep up a rapport with them, even told them "I listen to Alex Jones in my car.

莱尼尽一切努力与他们保持融洽的关系，甚至告诉他们“我在车里听亚历克斯·琼斯的音乐。

I used to argue with people about 9/11 being an inside job.

我曾经与人们争论 9/11 是否是内部活动。

I entertained that we didn't go to the moon." But it didn't work.

我很高兴我们没有去月球。”但这没有用。

So he started blocking people and fighting back.

于是他开始拦人并反击。

This got him booted from the group.

这让他被踢出团体。

What's remarkable is just how up for this whole fight he was.

值得注意的是他在整场比赛中的表现如何。

When a bunch of people kept private messaging him, Lenny thought, "you know what?

当一群人不断给他发私信时，莱尼想，“你知道吗？

I'll just start my own Facebook group." He called it "Conspiracy Theorists Anonymous." This name was meant as a joke.

我将创建自己的 Facebook 群组。”他称之为“匿名阴谋理论家”。这个名字本来就是一个玩笑。

He has a dry sense of humor.

他有一种冷幽默感。

Anyway, he made some progress with people, the people who weren't full blown deniers, who actually wanted help parsing out the truth of what really happened.

不管怎样，他在与人们的相处中取得了一些进展，这些人并不是彻底的否认者，而是真正需要帮助来解析到底发生了什么的真相。

But they dropped away once they got answers.

但当他们得到答案后，他们就离开了。

And pretty soon, the only ones left were just dark, sadistic trolls coming in to entertain themselves.

很快，剩下的就只剩下黑暗、虐待狂的巨魔进来自娱自乐了。

One of Lenny's worst trolls was a guy named Wolfgang Halbig.

莱尼最糟糕的巨魔之一是一个名叫沃尔夫冈·哈尔比格的人。

That's his real name, by the way.

顺便说一句，这是他的真名。

He's a retired school security expert in Florida, who's probably the number one Newtown hoaxer in the world.

他是佛罗里达州一位退休的学校安全专家，可能是世界上纽敦头号骗子。

This guy traveled to Newtown, appeared as an expert on Alex Jones's show.

这家伙去了纽敦，在亚历克斯·琼斯的节目中以专家的身份出现。

He's even called for Newtown parents to exhume the bodies of their children to prove that they're dead.

他甚至呼吁纽敦的父母挖掘孩子的尸体，以证明他们已经死亡。

Halbig ordered a background check on Lenny, then sent it out in an email to lots of people.

哈尔比格下令对莱尼进行背景调查，然后通过电子邮件发送给很多人。

It was almost 100 pages, listing everything from his social security number and phone number to almost every address he'd ever lived at with photos.

这封信有近 100 页，列出了从他的社会安全号码和电话号码到几乎所有他住过的地址（附有照片）的所有信息。

Names of his relatives were included too.

他的亲戚的名字也被包括在内。

The online harassment had become so intense that Lenny and Veronique, and their two girls, went into hiding.

网上骚扰变得如此激烈，以至于莱尼和维罗妮克以及他们的两个女儿躲了起来。

They moved into separate high security gated communities.

他们搬进了单独的高度戒备的封闭社区。

But Lenny's address kept getting exposed, and hoaxers started posting videos of where he lived.

但莱尼的地址不断曝光，骗子开始发布他居住地点的视频。

One apartment that I had moved into-- I had only lived there, I think, for a month-- and I got a call from a particular hoaxer who happens to be in prison now for attempted murder.

我搬进了一间公寓——我想我只在那里住了一个月——我接到了一个骗子打来的电话，他恰好因谋杀未遂而入狱。

And he called me up and was acting like a smart ass, and then read me my social security number, and then read me my address, where I had just moved into.

他给我打电话，表现得像个自作聪明的人，然后读了我的社会安全号码，然后读了我的地址，我刚刚搬到的地方。

And I said, well, you know what?

我说，好吧，你知道吗？

I don't like this apartment that much, anyway.

无论如何，我不太喜欢这个公寓。

And I moved shortly after that.

不久之后我就搬家了。

To try and throw the hoaxers off, Lenny started putting utility bills in different names and got multiple PO boxes all over the place.

为了甩掉骗子，莱尼开始以不同的名字填写水电费账单，并在各处设立了多个邮政信箱。

All this forced Lenny into a new battle strategy.

这一切迫使莱尼采取新的战斗策略。

If they were going to expose him, he'd do the same to them.

如果他们要揭发他，他也会对他们做同样的事情。

He wrote newspaper op-eds calling out Halbig and the others by name.

他在报纸上撰写专栏文章，直呼哈尔比格和其他人的名字。

And when these hoaxers posted his new addresses online, he did the same to them.

当这些骗子在网上发布他的新地址时，他对他们做了同样的事情。

He also made it so that if you googled their names, the first thing anyone would see was all the Sandy Hook garbage they'd created.

他还做到了，如果你用谷歌搜索他们的名字，任何人首先看到的就是他们创造的所有桑迪胡克垃圾。

And Lenny being Lenny, decided to write a biography about Wolfgang Halbig's life called "The Hoax of a Lifetime." He released it as an e-book.

莱尼就是莱尼，决定写一本关于沃尔夫冈·哈尔比格一生的传记，名为《一生的骗局》。他将其发布为电子书。

Lenny became the one who knocks.

莱尼成为敲门的人。

He calls this troll wrestling.

他称之为巨魔摔跤。

It's like trolling the trolls.

这就像拖钓巨魔。

He gets both energized and sheepish when talking about it.

谈论这件事时，他既充满活力又羞涩。

He insists, sometimes the only way to fight hardcore hoaxers is to turn the tables on them.

他坚称，有时打击铁杆骗子的唯一方法就是扭转局面。

And it worked on some of them, freaked them out.

这对他们中的一些人起作用了，把他们吓坏了。

Still, Lenny was just one guy.

尽管如此，莱尼只是一个人。

And every day, new mountains of content about Noah were showing up online.

每天，网上都会出现大量有关诺亚的新内容。

His crusade was a lonely one.

他的十字军东征是一场孤独的十字军东征。

The hoaxers seemed so dangerous, most of the other Newtown parents wanted to stay as far away as possible from them.

骗子看起来非常危险，纽敦的大多数其他家长都想尽可能远离他们。

In my darker moments, the conspiracy part of me would return and ask myself, am I the only one that lost a child?

在我最黑暗的时刻，我内心的阴谋部分会回来问自己，我是唯一一个失去孩子的人吗？

Why am I the only one fighting back?

为什么只有我一个人反抗？

I mean, what the hell is going on?

我的意思是，到底发生了什么事？

I mean, people were trampling all over other people's children's memories, and those children no longer had a voice to defend themselves.

我的意思是，人们践踏了别人孩子的记忆，那些孩子不再有声音为自己辩护。

And people were just silent about it.

人们对此保持沉默。

But while Lenny was escalating his tactics, so was the other side.

但当莱尼的战术升级时，对方也在升级。

Around the second anniversary of Sandy Hook, a small group of conspiracy theorists made an almost three hour movie on YouTube, questioning the shooting.

在桑迪·胡克事件两周年纪念日前后，一小群阴谋论者在 YouTube 上制作了一部近三个小时的电影，对枪击事件提出质疑。

They described themselves as independent journalists and researchers, but their backgrounds were totally random.

他们将自己描述为独立记者和研究人员，但他们的背景完全是随机的。

They included a magician, the owner of a moving company, a guy who'd been arrested for stabbing someone five times, and a stay-at-home dad.

他们包括一名魔术师、一家搬家公司的老板、一名因刺伤他人五次而被捕的人，以及一名全职爸爸。

I just had an idea that I wanted to be an underground filmmaker myself.

我只是有一个想法，我自己想成为一名地下电影制片人。

This is Doug Maguire.

这是道格·马奎尔。

He says he met this group online, on YouTube, and got brought in at the end to help polish the movie.

他说他在 YouTube 上在线认识了这个团队，最后被邀请来帮助完善这部电影。

It felt exciting.

感觉很刺激。

At the time, Doug was a struggling filmmaker in Los Angeles.

当时，道格是洛杉矶一名苦苦挣扎的电影制片人。

Occasionally did some stunt work.

偶尔也会做一些特技表演。

He got into conspiracy theories the way lots of people do-- watching them on YouTube.

他像很多人一样陷入阴谋论——在 YouTube 上观看阴谋论。

Like Lenny, he loved the ones about Bigfoot and UFOs.

和莱尼一样，他也喜欢有关大脚怪和不明飞行物的故事。

But then he went to look up news about Sandy Hook, and YouTube's recommendation system started suggesting hoax videos.

但随后他去查找有关桑迪·胡克的新闻，YouTube 的推荐系统开始推荐恶作剧视频。

He didn't believe the theory that the kids were actors.

他不相信孩子们是演员的理论。

He thought children died, but he felt pretty sure there was some other kind of cover up going on, maybe one with the mafia.

他认为孩子们死了，但他很确定还有其他某种掩盖行为，也许是黑手党的掩盖行为。

And where did you get that information?

您从哪里获得这些信息？

Like, where did you come up with this idea of a mob?

比如，你是从哪里想到暴徒这个想法的？

Had you read this somewhere?

你在哪里读过这篇文章吗？

No, it was-- you know, because I make movies.

不，是——你知道，因为我拍电影。

So I think I have an active imagination.

所以我认为我有活跃的想象力。

A family had done someone wrong.

一个家庭做错了某人。

Like, let's say the movie Goodfellas, OK?

就像电影《好家伙》一样，好吗？

Henry Hill is hiding out in a little village.

亨利·希尔躲在一个小村庄里。

He also mentioned Kindergarten Cop.

他还提到了幼儿园警察。

When they released their film, they uploaded it to a bunch of different accounts, on places like YouTube, Vimeo, Dailymotion.

当他们发布电影时，他们将其上传到 YouTube、Vimeo、Dailymotion 等许多不同的帐户。

Pretty soon, it was showing up everywhere.

很快，它就出现在各处。

To combat this, Lenny had to change tactics one final time.

为了解决这个问题，莱尼不得不最后一次改变策略。

No more talking to hoaxers one-on-one.

不再与骗子一对一交谈。

Now the thing he'd focus on was content removal, scrubbing their stuff off the internet.

现在他要关注的事情是内容删除，从互联网上清除他们的东西。

He decided he was going to get every single copy of the movie taken down, which wasn't going to be easy.

他决定把这部电影的每一个副本都拿下来，但这并不容易。

He couldn't just write into YouTube and say, "hey, this video is full of lies." That wasn't going to be enough.

他不能只是在 YouTube 上写信说：“嘿，这个视频充满了谎言。”这还不够。

The internet is full of lies.

互联网充满了谎言。

He needed something else.

他需要别的东西。

And he realized he had it.

他意识到他拥有了它。

These conspiracy theorists had used photos and videos of him and Noah and Veronique.

这些阴谋论者使用了他、诺亚和维罗妮克的照片和视频。

Those were his property, making this movie a copyright violation.

这些是他的财产，这使得这部电影侵犯了版权。

The stolen images were now a useful weapon.

被盗的图像现在是一种有用的武器。

Lenny tracked down every place where this video was posted.

莱尼找到了发布该视频的每个地点。

And you've probably seen this.

你可能已经看过这个。

There's a little button you can click on to report stuff.

有一个小按钮，您可以单击来报告内容。

So that's what he did for hours every day.

这就是他每天几个小时所做的事情。

And success.

和成功。

Sort of.

有点像。

The hoaxers kept reposting and moving the video onto other sites.

骗子不断将视频转发并转移到其他网站上。

You know, the crazies are not running the asylum.

你知道，精神病院并不是由疯子管理的。

It's the platforms who are allowing this to go on.

是平台允许这种情况继续下去。

So that solidifies it for me that we have to just remove all of this garbage, and that's all we need to do.

所以这对我来说更加坚定了我们必须清除所有这些垃圾，这就是我们需要做的。

But this, of course, pissed off a lot of hoaxers.

但这当然激怒了很多骗子。

We don't know what's going on.

我们不知道发生了什么事。

We just know it doesn't look right.

我们只知道它看起来不对劲。

Alex Jones.

亚历克斯·琼斯。

He was stumped.

他被难住了。

Lenny had successfully forced the Infowars site to remove pictures of Noah using copyright.

莱尼成功地迫使 Infowars 网站删除了使用版权的诺亚的照片。

So frustrating.

太令人沮丧了。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

The claimant is Lenny Pozner.

原告是莱尼·波兹纳。

They think because they can hold out some little kids and say, we're shutting peoples' websites down because they're belittling the memory of these children.

他们认为，因为他们可以抱着一些小孩说，我们要关闭人们的网站，因为他们贬低了这些孩子的记忆。

No, we're not.

不，我们不是。

But even if we were, you couldn't violate our first amendment, because that's what it's there for.

但即使我们这样做，你也不能违反我们的第一修正案，因为这就是它的目的。

And if you take our rights, you take everybody's rights.

如果你剥夺了我们的权利，你也就剥夺了每个人的权利。

And Jones put one of the guys who worked on the movie on the air.

琼斯让一名参与这部电影的人播出。

His name is Brian.

他的名字叫布莱恩。

He's from Alabama.

他来自阿拉巴马州。

What do you think of us being censored?

您对我们受到审查有何看法？

What's been happening to you?

你怎么了？

I can tell you lots about Lenny.

我可以告诉你很多关于莱尼的事。

This man is something that you've never seen before.

这个男人是你以前从未见过的。

He's got a group of trolls.

他有一群巨魔。

I mean, they're trying to shut us down, when we're just investigating it and looking at all sides, it must be horrible for folks out there that vehemently think this is staged.

我的意思是，他们试图让我们关闭，当我们只是调查此事并审视各个方面时，对于那些强烈认为这是上演的人来说，这一定是可怕的。

So just specifically, what have you gone through?

那么具体来说，你经历了什么？

I can't even put up a video showing that he has put up a copyright strike against me without him copywriting striking that.

我什至无法发布一段视频，显示他对我提出了版权警告，而他没有文案来警告我。

These people are vile.

这些人很卑鄙。

And Lenny, if you're listening, your day is coming, my friend.

莱尼，如果你在听的话，你的日子即将到来，我的朋友。

It is coming.

它来了。

Wow.

哇。

I mean, this sounds like a war is going on.

我的意思是，这听起来像是一场战争正在发生。

I think they made a major mistake involving us.

我认为他们在我们身上犯了一个重大错误。

Oh, I totally agree.

哦，我完全同意。

They don't know what they bit off.

他们不知道自己咬掉了什么。

Go after him, Alex.

追他吧，亚历克斯。

Crush him.

压垮他。

In this video on YouTube, Jones showed his fans-- he had millions of them-- Lenny's email, the city he lived in, and the address he picked up his mail.

在 YouTube 上的这段视频中，琼斯向他的粉丝（他有数百万粉丝）展示了莱尼的电子邮件、他居住的城市以及他领取邮件的地址。

Even held up some satellite shots from Google Earth.

甚至还举起了谷歌地球的一些卫星照片。

Lenny got this video taken down too, flagging it for privacy violations.

莱尼也删除了这段视频，并将其标记为侵犯隐私。

But it didn't matter.

但这并不重要。

The hoaxers had taken on a mob mentality, pursuing and harassing Lenny.

骗子们采取了暴徒心态，追逐并骚扰莱尼。

This is an Infowars fan named Lucy Richards, who left multiple death threats on Lenny's phone.

这是一位名叫露西·理查兹（Lucy Richards）的 Infowars 粉丝，她在莱尼的手机上留下了多条死亡威胁。

Did you hide your imaginary son in an attic?

你把你想象中的儿子藏在阁楼里了吗？

Are you still fucking him, you fucking Jew bastard?

你还在操他吗，你这个该死的犹太混蛋？

You're gonna die.

你会死的。

You're gonna rot in hell.

你会在地狱里腐烂。

Death is coming to you real soon, and there's nothing you can do about it.

死亡很快就会降临到你身上，而你对此却无能为力。

So you're just gonna have to take it, OK?

所以你只能接受它，好吗？

Jew bastard.

犹太人混蛋。

Look behind you.

看看你身后。

Death is coming to you real soon.

死亡很快就会真正降临到你身上。

She said, "Look behind you.

她说：“看看你的身后。

Death is coming to you real soon." Lenny was already living in hiding.

死亡很快就会降临到你身上。”莱尼已经躲藏起来了。

He'd moved multiple times by then, because hoaxers kept tracking down his address.

那时他已经搬过好几次家了，因为骗子不断追踪他的地址。

But now the chances that a hoaxer might show up at his door and kill him suddenly felt much higher.

但现在，骗子出现在他家门口并杀死他的可能性突然变得更高了。

His kids were living with him half the week, and he worried about them.

他的孩子们和他住了半周，他很担心他们。

At the same time, he didn't consider stopping.

与此同时，他也没有考虑停下来。

He didn't think it would make them safer.

他不认为这会让他们更安全。

That's one of the misconceptions that exist, that people think that I am only targeted because of challenging the content.

这是存在的误解之一，人们认为我只是因为挑战内容而成为目标。

And that's not the case.

事实并非如此。

I took the action because I was being targeted.

我采取行动是因为我成为目标。

So if my address was published all over the internet, my photo was published all over the internet, and my living children's photos are published online, that's existed before I did anything.

因此，如果我的地址在互联网上发布，我的照片在互联网上发布，我活着的孩子的照片在网上发布，那么在我做任何事情之前就已经存在了。

I didn't cause the targeting.

我没有引起目标。

It was already there.

它已经在那里了。

I was minimizing the targeting.

我正在最小化目标。

He posted receipts for firearms.

他张贴了枪支收据。

I'd asked if he actually bought them, and he wouldn't give me an answer.

我问他是不是真的买的，他不给我答案。

Amidst all this, Lenny kept up his daily ritual.

在这一切之中，莱尼继续着他的日常仪式。

He'd wake up, make coffee, and then sit in front of his computer for hours, flagging content, trying to systematically erase Noah from the Sandy Hook hoax story.

他会醒来，煮咖啡，然后坐在电脑前几个小时，标记内容，试图系统地将诺亚从桑迪胡克骗局故事中抹去。

There was a lot of stuff he couldn't invoke copyright law for, like the death threats and harassment.

有很多事情他无法援引版权法，例如死亡威胁和骚扰。

That was much harder to get taken down.

想要被拿下要困难得多。

The tech companies were wary of becoming arbiters of truth, making decisions about what its users could and couldn't say.

科技公司对成为事实的仲裁者持谨慎态度，对用户可以说什么和不能说什么做出决定。

But Lenny, in his usual methodical fashion, kept chipping away.

但莱尼以他一贯的有条不紊的方式，不断地努力。

On YouTube, he kept a scorecard.

在 YouTube 上，他保留了一份记分卡。

Once he nailed someone with three copyright strikes, YouTube would remove their accounts.

一旦他对某人发出了三次版权警告，YouTube就会删除他们的帐户。

He killed thousands of videos this way.

他就这样杀掉了数千个视频。

The hoaxers called this "getting Poznered." He'd become a hashtag.

恶作剧者称之为“陷入波兹纳”。他已经成为一个话题标签。

Then he and Veronique helped get a professor in Florida, named James Tracy, fired.

然后他和维罗妮克帮助解雇了佛罗里达州一位名叫詹姆斯·特雷西的教授。

This guy had harassed them for years, and kept using Noah's image to promote his conspiracy theories.

这家伙骚扰他们多年，还不断利用诺亚的形象宣扬自己的阴谋论。

He's also the one who helped popularize the conspiracy term "crisis actor" on his blog right after the shooting.

他也是枪击事件发生后立即在他的博客上帮助流行“危机演员”这一阴谋术语的人。

And that woman who was leaving death threats, Lucy Richards?

还有那个留下死亡威胁的女人，露西·理查兹？

Lenny reported her to the police, and they arrested her.

莱尼向警方举报了她，他们逮捕了她。

She was sentenced to five months in jail.

她被判处五个月监禁。

The judge rebuked her for going after Lenny, saying, quote, "This is a reality, and there is no fiction.

法官斥责她追捕莱尼，并说：“这是现实，没有虚构。

There are no alternative facts." He barred her from Infowars and other conspiracy websites as one of the conditions of her parole.

没有其他事实可供选择。”他禁止她访问 Infowars 和其他阴谋网站，作为她假释的条件之一。

One surprising thing that happened over the years is that some of the hoaxers who used to harass Lenny flipped to his side.

多年来发生的一件令人惊讶的事情是，一些曾经骚扰莱尼的骗子转向了他的一边。

There were dozens of them.

他们有几十个。

Lenny says these were people who came to him only after they changed their own minds, not people he tried to convert.

莱尼说，这些人是在改变主意后才来找他的，而不是他试图改变的人。

He says that never works.

他说那永远行不通。

It's a waste of time.

这是浪费时间。

Some of them became disenchanted when they saw Sandy Hook hoaxers who were more interested in photo shopping evidence and getting online followers than tracking down the truth.

当他们看到桑迪胡克骗子更感兴趣的是照片购物证据和吸引在线粉丝而不是追查真相时，他们中的一些人变得不再抱有幻想。

One of them was Doug, who worked on that hoaxer movie about Sandy Hook.

道格就是其中之一，他参与了一部关于桑迪·胡克的恶作剧电影的制作。

In 2016, he found a phone number for Lenny and left a voicemail.

2016年，他找到了莱尼的电话号码并留下了语音信箱。

"Hey, Lenny Pozner, this is dickhead Doug Maguire.

“嘿，莱尼·波兹纳，我是白痴道格·马奎尔。

If you ever need me, if you ever want to get a hold of me and learn about what all these people are up to, here's my number."

如果你需要我，如果你想联系我并了解这些人在做什么，这是我的电话号码。”

I don't believe I did.

我不相信我做到了。

Miki Meek Not surprisingly, Lenny didn't return his call.

米基·米克 毫不奇怪，莱尼没有回电话。

Doug was reaching out to Lenny because the hoaxers had turned on him, too.

道格向莱尼伸出援手，因为骗子也向他发起了攻击。

He says he started feuding with some of them after he made a video exposing a Christian YouTuber who was making money off false, outrageous claims.

他说，在他制作了一段视频，揭露一名基督徒 YouTuber 通过虚假、无耻的言论赚钱后，他开始与其中一些人发生争执。

All of his social media accounts then got hacked.

随后他的所有社交媒体帐户都被黑客入侵。

Lenny was the only person he could think of who knew how to fight back.

莱尼是他能想到的唯一一个懂得反击的人。

He wanted advice.

他想要建议。

So he tried him again, and got through.

于是他又试了一次，终于成功了。

He told Lenny that it felt like he'd been sort of brainwashed.

他告诉莱尼，他感觉自己好像被洗脑了。

That he'd been on a roller coaster ride, that he wanted to switch sides.

他说他一直在坐过山车，他想换边。

Lenny had started a nonprofit called The HONR Network, where volunteers help families from mass tragedies fight digital harassment.

莱尼创办了一个名为“荣誉网络”的非营利组织，志愿者帮助遭受大规模悲剧的家庭对抗数字骚扰。

So Doug began helping him scrub content.

于是道格开始帮助他清理内容。

When you were doing it, did you feel like you were doing penance?

当你这样做的时候，你觉得你在苦修吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, and my heart is very heavy for this.

是的，为此我的心情非常沉重。

Were you surprised at how quickly Lenny let you in?

你对莱尼这么快就让你进来感到惊讶吗？

Yeah, and I still am.

是的，我现在仍然是。

The fact that he even is giving me a chance, I'm very humbled.

事实上他甚至给了我机会，我感到非常谦卑。

I tell him I love him.

我告诉他我爱他。

I tell him that he's like my mentor.

我告诉他他就像我的导师。

Sometimes, I call him "boss," and he says, "don't call me boss."

有时，我叫他“老板”，他说，“别叫我老板”。

Have you you apologized to other families at Sandy Hook?

您向桑迪胡克的其他家庭道歉了吗？

No. I think just to try to call up one of these families that-- they don't need to hear from some kind of a YouTuber guy in Los Angeles.

不，我想只要试着给这些家庭中的一个打电话，他们就不需要收到来自洛杉矶某个 YouTuber 的消息。

I think, one day-- I am very sorry.

我想，有一天——我感到非常抱歉。

Very sorry for any problems to any victims.

对于给受害者带来的任何问题，我们深表歉意。

Doug is now one of Lenny's most devoted volunteers.

道格现在是莱尼最忠诚的志愿者之一。

Lenny's got more than 100 people helping him out at any given time.

莱尼在任何时候都有超过 100 人帮助他。

But the burnout rate is high because the work is so intense.

但由于工作强度太大，倦怠率很高。

And hoaxers harass volunteers like Doug all the time for helping Lenny.

恶作剧者一直骚扰像道格这样帮助莱尼的志愿者。

When Lenny Googles Noah's name now, he no longer gets page after page of hoaxer content.

当莱尼现在用谷歌搜索诺亚的名字时，他不再看到一页又一页的恶作剧内容。

A lot of it is gone now.

现在很多都消失了。

Instead, the first hits that come up are news articles about Lenny's fight to make the tech companies more accountable.

相反，最先出现的热门文章是有关莱尼为让科技公司承担更多责任而奋斗的新闻文章。

For years, he's been criticizing them in the press for not doing more to protect families of mass tragedies from online abuse.

多年来，他一直在媒体上批评他们没有采取更多措施来保护遭受大规模悲剧的家庭免受网络虐待。

Last summer, he and Veronique called out Mark Zuckerberg in an open letter in The Guardian.

去年夏天，他和维罗妮克在《卫报》的一封公开信中批评了马克·扎克伯格。

They wrote, quote "you, arguably the most powerful man on the planet, have deemed that the attacks on us are immaterial, that providing assistance in removing threats is too cumbersome, and that our lives are less important than providing a safe haven for hate."

他们写道，引用“你，可以说是地球上最有权势的人，认为对我们的攻击是无关紧要的，为消除威胁提供援助太麻烦了，我们的生命不如为仇恨提供安全避难所重要。”

Shortly after, Facebook reached out to Lenny.

不久之后，Facebook 联系了 Lenny。

He started working with their content moderators and policymakers, and says their response times are now much faster.

他开始与他们的内容审核者和政策制定者合作，并表示他们的响应时间现在快得多。

He also helped turn up the heat on Alex Jones.

他还帮助提高了对亚历克斯·琼斯的压力。

Last spring, he and Veronique and another dad from Newtown filed defamation lawsuits against him.

去年春天，他和维罗妮克以及来自纽敦的另一位父亲对他提起诽谤诉讼。

Other parents followed with their own suit.

其他家长也纷纷效仿。

A few months later, Apple started removing Jones's material from iTunes, saying they would not, quote, tolerate hate speech.

几个月后，苹果开始从 iTunes 中删除琼斯的材料，并表示他们不会容忍仇恨言论。

Facebook, Google, and Spotify then followed suit.

Facebook、谷歌和 Spotify 随后也纷纷效仿。

YouTube killed his channel completely, but you can still find his videos on the platform.

YouTube彻底关闭了他的频道，但你仍然可以在该平台上找到他的视频。

And Twitter was one of the last to take action against Jones and Infowars.

Twitter 是最后对 Jones 和 Infowars 采取行动的公司之一。

The New York Times reported that getting deplatformed cut his online audience nearly in half.

据《纽约时报》报道，他的在线受众减少了近一半。

I met up with Lenny at his place recently.

我最近在莱尼家遇见了他。

He lives in a gated high security residence.

他住在一栋戒备森严的住宅里。

He was filing copyright and harassment reports to places like Instagram, Pinterest, Reddit, Vimeo, and Twitter.

他向 Instagram、Pinterest、Reddit、Vimeo 和 Twitter 等网站提交版权和骚扰报告。

He says Twitter is his biggest headache right now.

他说 Twitter 是他目前最头疼的问题。

There's content about Noah he still can't get down, and he gets personally attacked there all the time.

关于诺亚的内容他仍然看不下去，而且他总是在那里受到人身攻击。

Do you feel like you've jumped in this rabbit hole that is never going to end?

您是否感觉自己跳进了这个永远不会结束的兔子洞？

I don't think I jumped in.

我想我没有跳进去。

I think I just got pulled in.

我想我只是被拉进去了。

You're just constantly subjecting yourself to just so much hateful material.

你只是不断地让自己受到这么多可恨的材料的影响。

Just like throwing trash out.

就像扔垃圾一样。

Once it's gone, it feels really good.

一旦消失了，感觉真的很好。

It really does.

确实如此。

This is what victory looks like, taking the trash out every day.

这就是胜利的样子，每天把垃圾倒掉。

He recently spotted one of the hoaxers who's been after him.

他最近发现了一名跟踪他的骗子。

Turns out, the person lives nearby.

原来，这个人就住在附近。

Lenny's about to have to move again.

莱尼又要搬家了。

This will be the eighth time.

这将是第八次。

Miki Meek is one of the producers of our show.

米基·米克是我们节目的制作人之一。

Coming up, how Alex Jones became Alex Jones, or not.

接下来，亚历克斯·琼斯如何成为亚历克斯·琼斯，或者不是。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, Beware the Jabberwock.

今天的节目，小心 Jabberwock。

We've arrived at Act 2 of our program.

我们已经到了计划的第二幕。

Act 2.

第 2 幕。

Alex in Wonderland.

亚历克斯在仙境。

So one of the occasional contributors to our program, Jon Ronson, actually got to know Alex Jones personally years ago, long before Alex Jones became the most notorious conspiracy theorist in the country.

因此，我们节目的临时撰稿人之一乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）实际上在几年前就认识了亚历克斯·琼斯，早在亚历克斯·琼斯成为美国最臭名昭著的阴谋论者之前。

They met doing a story where, together, they snuck into a summertime enclave of the rich and powerful called Bohemian Grove.

他们在写一个故事时相识，故事中他们一起潜入了一个名为波西米亚丛林的富人和有权势的夏季飞地。

They each did their own stories about it.

他们每个人都对此做了自己的故事。

Jon thought it was pretty harmless, maybe a little silly.

乔恩认为这没什么害处，也许有点傻。

Alex Jones thought it was much more sinister.

亚历克斯·琼斯认为这要险恶得多。

Now and then over the years, they would touch base.

这些年来，他们时不时地会接触到基地。

Then in 2016, Jon met somebody in Alex's orbit.

然后在 2016 年，乔恩遇到了亚历克斯周围的人。

And that is where this story begins.

这就是这个故事的开始。

The man's name was Josh Owens, and in October 2016 he started sending me cryptic texts about his boss.

这个人的名字叫乔什·欧文斯 (Josh Owens)，2016 年 10 月，他开始向我发送有关他老板的神秘短信。

"A lot of times, I'm conflicted with what I'm seeing.

“很多时候，我对自己所看到的感到矛盾。

Anyway, I won't get into that." His boss was Alex Jones.

无论如何，我不会参与其中。”他的老板是亚历克斯·琼斯。

Josh worked for him as a cameraman and a field producer.

乔什为他担任摄影师和现场制作人。

We exchanged more texts, and then we arranged to meet in a hotel lobby in Washington, DC.

我们交换了更多短信，然后安排在华盛顿特区的一家酒店大堂见面。

And here he was, walking in from the street, and waving shyly.

他就在这里，从街上走进来，害羞地挥手。

I was struck by how nervous he looked.

他看起来如此紧张，令我震惊。

He had traveled here to tell me secrets about Alex.

他来这里是为了告诉我有关亚历克斯的秘密。

And the reason he chose me was because I have known Alex Jones for so long.

他选择我的原因是因为我认识亚历克斯·琼斯这么久了。

When I first met and wrote about him 20 years ago, he broadcast Infowars down an ISDN line from a child's bedroom in his house, which was covered in choo choo train wallpaper.

20 年前，当我第一次见到并写到他时，他在他家的孩子卧室里通过 ISDN 线路广播了 Infowars，卧室里贴满了火车壁纸。

Back then, the whole operation was him, his producer Mike, and his webmaster executive producer girlfriend Kelly, also known as Violet.

那时，整个运作就是他、他的制片人迈克和他的网站管理员执行制片人女友凯莉（又名维奥莱特）。

Well, Alex at 26-years-old is now syndicated to over 40 commercial markets.

26 岁的 Alex 现在已涉足 40 多个商业市场。

So he's huge, not to mention that he's on short wave and the internet.

所以他很大，更不用说他在短波和互联网上。

He's been number one on AOL numerous times.

他曾多次荣登 AOL 排行榜第一名。

Alex is a sensation, because he's young, he's vibrant, and so many people are getting involved with this movement through what Alex does.

亚历克斯引起了轰动，因为他年轻，充满活力，很多人通过亚历克斯所做的事情参与到这一运动中。

This is tape I recorded back in 1999.

这是我 1999 年录制的磁带。

Violet would eventually become Alex's wife, and then years later, his ex-wife in an extremely acrimonious divorce and custody battle, during which Alex would at one point stare at her from the dock and tell the court, "she doesn't have any good qualities."

维奥莱特最终成为亚历克斯的妻子，几年后，在一场极其激烈的离婚和监护权之争中，成为他的前妻，在此期间，亚历克斯有时会在被告席上盯着她，告诉法庭，“她没有任何好的品质。”

You're beautiful, my love.

你很美丽，我的爱。

Isn't my girlfriend, Violet Nichols, beautiful and smart?

我的女朋友维奥莱特·尼科尔斯不是美丽又聪明吗？

Look at her.

看看她。

Look at her.

看看她。

She is just incredibly smart.

她非常聪明。

That's the webmaster of infowars.com.

那是 infowars.com 的网站管理员。

I followed Alex around for weeks that year.

那一年我跟踪了亚历克斯几个星期。

He was different back then, an eccentric fledgling conspiracy broadcaster.

那时的他与众不同，是一个古怪的初出茅庐的阴谋播音员。

I can't remember him attacking anyone but the powerful in those days.

我不记得他当时攻击过除了有权势的人之外的任何人。

He wasn't going after victims of school shootings as crisis actors.

他并没有以危机行动者的身份追捕校园枪击案的受害者。

He didn't assert, as he did in 2017, that the yogurt maker Chobani was, quote, importing migrant rapists who were spreading tuberculosis.

他并没有像 2017 年那样断言酸奶制造商 Chobani 进口了传播结核病的移民强奸犯。

He later apologized to Chobani in the face of a lawsuit.

后来他在面对诉讼时向乔巴尼道歉。

He has money now, a workforce of something like 40 employees, and a fan in President Trump, who has repeated a bunch of theories championed by Alex that Barack Obama is a Muslim who wears a ring with an Arabic inscription.

他现在有钱了，有大约 40 名员工，还有特朗普总统的粉丝，特朗普重复了亚历克斯支持的一系列理论，即巴拉克·奥巴马是一名穆斯林，戴着一枚带有阿拉伯铭文的戒指。

That Ted Cruz's father was linked to the JFK assassination, that Obama and Hillary co-founded ISIS.

特德·克鲁兹的父亲与肯尼迪遇刺案有关，奥巴马和希拉里共同创立了伊斯兰国。

Alex is playing a role in propagating the misinformation and confusion that's permeating America.

亚历克斯在传播充斥美国的错误信息和混乱方面发挥了作用。

With Hillary, she is an abject, psychopathic demon from hell that as soon as she gets into power, is gonna try to destroy the planet.

对于希拉里来说，她是一个来自地狱的卑鄙、精神变态的恶魔，一旦她掌权，就会试图摧毁这个星球。

Folks, let me just tell you something-- there are dozens of videos and photos of Obama having flies land on him indoors at all times of year, and he'll be next to 100 people, and no one has flies on 'em.

各位，让我告诉你们一件事——有几十个视频和照片显示奥巴马在一年中的任何时候都被苍蝇落在室内，而他身边有 100 个人，没有人身上有苍蝇。

Hillary, reportedly-- I mean, I was told by people around her that they think she's demon-possessed, OK?

据报道，希拉里——我的意思是，她周围的人告诉我，他们认为她被恶魔附身了，好吗？

You can't wash that evil off, man.

你无法洗掉这种邪恶，伙计。

I'm told there's a rotten smell around Hillary.

我听说希拉里周围有一股腐烂的气味。

I'm not kidding.

我不是在开玩笑。

People say Obama and Hillary both smell like sulfur.

人们说奥巴马和希拉里都闻起来像硫磺。

They smell like hell.

它们闻起来像地狱。

He said working for Alex had been his dream job.

他说为亚历克斯工作是他梦想的工作。

He'd actually won an online reporter contest four years earlier to work for Infowars.

实际上，他四年前就赢得了一场在线记者竞赛，为 Infowars 工作。

He was a young and angry Alex Jones fan back then, committed to exposing the shadowy elites.

当时，他是亚历克斯·琼斯（Alex Jones）年轻而愤怒的粉丝，致力于揭露阴暗的精英阶层。

But now he was disillusioned, because Alex had changed.

但现在他的幻想破灭了，因为亚历克斯变了。

And the final straw was the Muslims.

最后一根稻草就是穆斯林。

Alex had lately been broadcasting untrue stories about American Muslims running secret terrorist training camps in the Catskill Mountains of New York, and cheering the 9/11 attacks.

亚历克斯最近一直在广播有关美国穆斯林在纽约卡茨基尔山脉经营秘密恐怖分子训练营的不实故事，并为 9/11 袭击欢呼。

Here he is talking to then-candidate Donald Trump.

在这里，他正在与当时的候选人唐纳德·特朗普交谈。

You are vindicated on the radical Muslims celebrating not just in New Jersey, but New York, Palestine, all over.

激进的穆斯林不仅在新泽西州，而且在纽约、巴勒斯坦以及各地都在庆祝，这证明了你的观点是正确的。

What do you have to say?

你有什么要说的？

They're still attacking you.

他们还在攻击你。

Well, I took a lot of heat, and I was very strong on it.

嗯，我承受了很大的压力，而且我对此非常坚强。

I just want to finish by saying your reputation is amazing.

最后我只想说你的声誉令人惊叹。

I will not let you down.

我不会让你失望的。

And so Josh had found himself intimately involved in the business of demonizing Muslims.

因此，乔什发现自己密切参与了妖魔化穆斯林的事业。

This wasn't why he'd signed up.

这不是他报名的原因。

These weren't powerful elites.

这些人并不是强大的精英。

They were regular people.

他们都是普通人。

Recently, Josh boarded a plane and sat next to a Muslim family.

最近，乔什登上了飞机，坐在一个穆斯林家庭旁边。

The little girl was laughing, her face pressed to the window.

小女孩把脸贴在窗户上，笑着。

Josh looked at her, and he hated himself.

乔什看着她，他恨自己。

And soon after, he began texting me.

不久之后，他开始给我发短信。

He wanted to make amends.

他想要弥补。

He said he knew he should quit working for Alex, but it was hard.

他说他知道他应该辞掉为亚历克斯工作的工作，但这很难。

Alex paid him well.

亚历克斯付给他的报酬很高。

And although he had seen Alex scream at people in the office, and punch cabinets, and rip down blinds, he'd only ever been nice to Josh.

尽管他见过亚历克斯在办公室里对着人尖叫、殴打橱柜、撕下百叶窗，但他只对乔希很好。

As we continued to talk, I realized that Josh hadn't come to tell me any specific secret about Alex.

当我们继续交谈时，我意识到乔什并没有来告诉我任何关于亚历克斯的具体秘密。

He just wanted to vent his frustrations to somebody else who had known him a long time.

他只是想向认识他很久的人发泄心中的不满。

But then he said, oh, here's a story.

但后来他说，哦，这是一个故事。

The thing Josh told me then would, if true, totally rewrite the story of how Alex Jones became Alex Jones.

乔什告诉我的事情如果属实，将完全改写亚历克斯·琼斯如何成为亚历克斯·琼斯的故事。

First, you should know that Alex has a kind of origin story about what got him obsessed with rooting out conspiracies.

首先，你应该知道亚历克斯有一个关于是什么让他痴迷于铲除阴谋的起源故事。

He's told it a few times to the Rolling Stone journalist Alexander Zaitchik, and during monologues on his show.

他曾多次向滚石杂志记者 Alexander Zaitchik 以及在节目中的独白中讲述过这件事。

When I was, like, 16-years-old, and I'd be at parties, in would come a sheriff's department car, and they'd come in and sell bags of drugs to people.

当我大概 16 岁的时候，我参加聚会时，会有一辆治安部门的车进来，他们会进来向人们出售袋装毒品。

This took place in the Dallas suburb of Rockwall, where Alex grew up.

这件事发生在达拉斯郊区罗克沃尔，亚历克斯在那里长大。

And I went to school, and they were having an auditorium meeting about drug testing, or something.

我去了学校，他们正在举行一个礼堂会议，讨论药物测试之类的问题。

They had cops up there that I knew were drug dealers.

他们那里有警察，我知道他们是毒贩。

And I stood up, and I said, "I was at a pool party.

我站起来说：“我正在参加泳池派对。

He was selling cocaine and ecstasy last week." They took me in an office, rammed my head in the wall, told me, "we're gonna kill you if you don't shut up." They said, "You're gonna move out of this town right now." That's why we moved out here to Austin, because of it.

上周他正在出售可卡因和摇头丸。”他们把我带到一间办公室，把我的头撞到墙上，告诉我：“如果你不闭嘴，我们就会杀了你。”他们说：“你现在就要搬出这个城镇。”这就是我们搬到奥斯汀的原因。

Police corruption in Rockwall had opened Alex's eyes to the existence of powerful cabals, and exposing them would become his calling.

罗克沃尔警察局的腐败让亚历克斯看到了强大阴谋集团的存在，揭露他们将成为他的使命。

And it all began at that school assembly.

而这一切都始于那次学校集会。

So that's Alex's origin story.

这就是亚历克斯的起源故事。

But according to Josh, it wasn't true.

但据乔什说，这不是真的。

The true story, he said, was much more revealing.

他说，真实的故事更具启发性。

And it was also a big secret.

这也是一个天大的秘密。

Josh said, OK, I've heard this story a couple of times from childhood friends and family members.

乔什说，好吧，我从儿时的朋友和家人那里听过这个故事好几次。

Very few people in the office know it, but when Jones was a teenager, he was a bully.

办公室里很少有人知道，琼斯十几岁的时候就是一个恶霸。

No one liked him, because he was a bully.

没有人喜欢他，因为他是一个恶霸。

There was a group of kids that felt unsafe around him, and so they came up with a plan to trick him.

有一群孩子在他周围感到不安全，所以他们想出了一个计划来欺骗他。

They invited him out to a party in a barn.

他们邀请他去参加在谷仓举行的聚会。

It was a trap, Josh said.

这是一个陷阱，乔什说。

They beat him within an inch of his life.

他们把他打得差点命丧黄泉。

That's why his family moved to Austin.

这就是他的家人搬到奥斯汀的原因。

His whole family uprooted him and moved into a completely different city because of this crazy thing that happened to him.

因为发生在他身上的这件疯狂的事情，他的全家人都把他背井离乡，搬到了一个完全不同的城市。

Josh said having those guys conspire against Alex by luring him to that party was the real reason he got obsessed with conspiracies.

乔什说，这些人通过引诱亚历克斯参加那个聚会来密谋反对亚历克斯，这是他沉迷于阴谋的真正原因。

He had been the victim of one.

他曾是其中之一的受害者。

Josh and I parted soon after that.

乔希和我在那之后不久就分手了。

I walked around, replaying our conversation and wondering if I should look into it further.

我四处走动，重温我们的谈话，想知道是否应该进一步调查。

There were now two Alex Jones origin stories.

现在有两个亚历克斯·琼斯的起源故事。

In Alex's version, he was a brave figure forced out of town for standing up to corrupt authority.

在亚历克斯的版本中，他是一个勇敢的人物，因为反抗腐败权威而被迫出城。

But in Josh's, he was an outcast run out of town by fellow high school kids.

但在乔什的家里，他是一个被高中同学赶出城的流浪者。

Had Alex still been the fringey Alex of the '90s, I would have left his childhood alone.

如果亚历克斯仍然是 90 年代的边缘亚历克斯，我就不会去管他的童年了。

But he had become an influential figure, spreading chaos.

但他已经成为一个有影响力的人物，散布混乱。

And according to Josh, being ambushed at that party was the moment that shaped him-- that made him who he was.

据乔什说，在那次聚会上遭到伏击是塑造他的那一刻——这让他成为了现在的他。

And so I dug around some more.

所以我又挖掘了一些。

It became really clear, really quickly that Alex's school assembly story did not stand up to scrutiny.

很快事情就变得非常清楚，亚历克斯的学校集会故事经不起推敲。

My producer, Lina Misitzis, reached 10 people who were at the school at the time.

我的制片人 Lina Misitzis 联系了当时在学校的 10 个人。

And while it's true that the local sheriff had been convicted of stealing marijuana from the police evidence room with a plan to sell it, no one remembered anything like that assembly happening.

尽管当地治安官确实因从警方证据室偷窃大麻并计划出售而被定罪，但没有人记得发生过类似的集会。

Not the students, not the principal, not the teachers, not one of Alex's old football coaches, Randall Talley, who preferred to go by Coach Randy.

不是学生，不是校长，不是老师，也不是亚历克斯的一位老橄榄球教练兰德尔·塔利（Randall Talley），他更喜欢使用兰迪教练。

Do you remember an assembly where Alex called out the cops in the assembly for being drug traffickers?

您还记得亚历克斯在一次集会上指责集会中的警察是毒贩吗？

Is that your first time hearing about it?

这是你第一次听说吗？

Yes.

是的。

Jon Ronson Here's a former classmate, Ryan Tipton.

乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson） 这是我以前的同学瑞安·蒂普顿（Ryan Tipton）。

No, not at all.

不，一点也不。

That was probably DARE-- the DARE program.

那可能就是 DARE——DARE 计划。

And I do not remember that at all.

我根本不记得了。

Here's an old school friend, Jacob Olsen.

这是一位老同学，雅各布·奥尔森。

[LAUGHTER] Jacob Olsen Who told you that?

[笑声] 雅各布·奥尔森 谁告诉你的？

No. No.

不，不。

And Lina found the police officer who actually worked in the school when Alex was there, who presumably would have been one of the drug dealing cops who beat up Alex.

莉娜找到了亚历克斯在学校时实际在学校工作的警察，他可能是殴打亚历克斯的贩毒警察之一。

His name is Terry Garrett.

他的名字叫特里·加勒特。

[LAUGHTER] Terry Garrett OK, that sounds like something he probably would say, but I don't think anything like that ever happened.

[笑声] Terry Garrett 好吧，这听起来像是他可能会说的话，但我认为类似的事情从未发生过。

I mean, I would be willing to bet my whole pension that that never happened.

我的意思是，我愿意用我的全部养老金打赌，那件事从未发生过。

I mean, I don't think there were any times where, actually, we were even questioning a student, that an administrator wasn't in the room.

我的意思是，我不认为有任何时候，实际上，我们甚至在询问学生时管理员不在房间里。

What everyone does remember about Alex is, well, how memorable he was.

每个人对亚历克斯的记忆都是，他是多么令人难忘。

We were emailed the same stories over and over from former classmates.

我们一遍又一遍地从以前的同学那里收到同样的故事。

Quote, "he used to run through the hall saying he was the devil.

引用：“他过去常常跑过大厅，说他是魔鬼。

This is no joke." And, "he spoke a lot about being Satan or the Antichrist." And, "he would walk the halls with his arms flared out, with this intense, wide-eyed, evil look in his eyes." And, "he proclaimed to be the Antichrist."

这不是玩笑。”而且，“他经常说自己是撒旦或敌基督。”而且，“他会张开双臂在大厅里行走，眼神里充满了强烈、睁大的眼睛和邪恶的神情。”而且，“他宣称自己是敌基督者”。

Here's Coach Randy.

这是兰迪教练。

Randall Talley I'm fixing to tell you something that's gonna blow your mind.

兰德尔·塔利 我要告诉你一些会让你大吃一惊的事情。

He-- oh, golly.

他——哦，天哪。

People thought he was possessed.

人们以为他着魔了。

Have you heard this?

你听说过这个吗？

I've heard this from so many students, but this is the first time I've heard it from an adult.

我从很多学生那里听过这样的说法，但这是我第一次从成年人那里听到。

Well, he could make his tongue turn black.

好吧，他可以让他的舌头变黑。

And he would roll his eyes back in his head, and he would just sort of shake his head.

他会翻白眼，然后摇摇头。

It was-- I don't even know how to describe it, it was so eerie.

那是——我什至不知道如何描述它，太诡异了。

So you would see him do it?

那么你会看到他这么做吗？

Randall Talley Yeah, I saw him do it in class.

兰德尔·塔利 是的，我在课堂上看到他这么做了。

And what did you think you were looking at?

你以为你在看什么？

I really didn't know if he had broke a pen, or something, you know, to get his tongue, and his mouth black, or not.

我真的不知道他是否折断了一支笔，或者什么东西，你知道，让他的舌头和嘴巴变黑。

He terrorized that high school.

他恐吓那所高中。

Just run full steam, and shove his head into the lockers, and scream, "Hail Satan."

只要全速奔跑，把头伸进储物柜，然后尖叫，“撒旦万岁。”

This is Ellen.

这是艾伦。

I'll call her "Ellen." She didn't want us to use her real name because, as she texted, "I am not afraid of Alex directly, but I am very concerned about retaliation from his followers." Ellen went to middle school and high school with Alex.

我会叫她“艾伦”。她不想让我们使用她的真名，因为正如她发短信所说，“我并不直接害怕亚历克斯，但我非常担心他的追随者的报复。”艾伦和亚历克斯一起上初中和高中。

She didn't remember any party in a barn where Alex got revenge attacked, but she did have lots other memories of him, like these.

她不记得在谷仓举行的任何一场聚会上亚历克斯遭到了报复，但她确实有很多关于他的其他记忆，比如这些。

Sitting in art class with him, across the table-- he's over there wringing his hands, describing to me in great detail how he's going to rape me.

和他一起坐在美术课上，桌子对面——他在那儿绞着双手，详细地向我描述他将如何强奸我。

And I never thought he would actually do that.

我从没想过他真的会这么做。

Just shock factor.

只是震惊因素。

If Alex hadn't become famous, would you still have remembered Alex?

如果Alex没有成名，你还会记得Alex吗？

Oh, yes.

哦是的。

Definitely.

确实。

You don't forget people like that.

你不会忘记这样的人。

Then Ellen told me her worst Alex memory.

然后艾伦告诉我她最糟糕的亚历克斯记忆。

The most violent incident was-- in second period geography?

最暴力的事件是——第二期地理？

Where he bludgeoned one of his closest friends to the point where he was unconscious, and bleeding, and laying on the floor.

他殴打了他最亲密的朋友之一，致​​使他失去知觉，流着血，躺在地板上。

1990.

1990年。

My senior year.

我高三那年

Jon Ronson Jared's real name is Jared.

乔恩·罗森·贾里德的真名是贾里德。

He still lives close to Rockwall, in a mobile home in the countryside.

他仍然住在罗克沃尔附近乡村的一栋移动房屋里。

Even though his mother, who is watching us from the kitchen, had counseled him to be anonymous, Jared was steadfast.

尽管他的母亲在厨房里看着我们，建议他不要透露姓名，但贾里德态度坚定。

He wanted to be named.

他想要被命名。

Right off the bat, he was odd.

立刻，他就变得很奇怪。

Real odd, real strange.

真奇怪，真奇怪。

We wanted him around because it was funny at first, you know?

我们想要他在身边，因为一开始这很有趣，你知道吗？

The way he acted.

他的行为方式。

But it got worse and worse, and finally, man, we just didn't want to hang out with him at all.

但情况变得越来越糟，最后，伙计，我们根本不想和他一起出去玩。

Jared was bewildered that a journalist had contacted him.

贾里德对记者联系他感到困惑。

Nobody had asked him about the day Alex beat him unconscious since high school.

自高中以来，没有人问过他那天亚历克斯把他打昏的事。

It was an argument over a girl.

这是因为一个女孩的争吵。

I said, what's going on?

我说，这是怎么回事？

But he came in behind me, and pretty much just rammed into the wall, and caused me to fall off balance.

但他从我身后进来，几乎撞到了墙上，让我失去了平衡。

It dazed me.

这让我眼花缭乱。

I was blurred vision.

我眼前一片模糊。

I could see him, but he picked me up, and I just went over headfirst, and knocked me out immediately.

我可以看到他，但他把我举起来，我就头朝下地过去，然后立即把我撞倒了。

And started-- my body went into convulsions.

然后开始——我的身体开始抽搐。

I started flipping all over the ground.

我开始在地上翻来覆去。

And he just kept stomping on my head, and kicking me in the head, and kicking me in the ear.

他就一直踩我的头，踢我的头，踢我的耳朵。

Blood came out of my ears, and my nose, and everything.

血从我的耳朵、鼻子和所有地方流出来。

He was trying to kill me.

他想杀了我。

Point blank.

点空白。

What other excuse is there?

还有什么借口呢？

I got seven fractures to the skull and and a concussion, lost 20% of the hearing in my right ear.

我的头骨有七处骨折，还有一次脑震荡，右耳听力丧失了 20%。

I live with a headache pretty much all the time.

我几乎一直生活在头痛之中。

I get pretty bad headaches.

我头疼得很厉害。

Jared said the parents took over after that.

贾里德说，此后父母接手了。

Alex's father, a dentist, offered to pay Jared's medical bills, including a $10,000 neurologist's bill.

Alex 的父亲是一名牙医，愿意支付 Jared 的医疗费用，其中包括 10,000 美元的神经科医生费用。

But there was a condition.

但有一个条件。

Y'all just don't jump on Alex.

你们只是不要跳到亚历克斯身上。

Just leave him alone.

就让他一个人呆着吧。

I'll pay all the bills.

我会付所有的账单。

So I just left him alone.

所以我就让他一个人呆着。

Jared said Alex's father also gave Jared's parents a book about why it's wrong for people to sue people.

贾里德说亚历克斯的父亲还给了贾里德的父母一本关于为什么人们起诉别人是错误的书。

Lots of people remember Alex beating Jared up.

很多人都记得亚历克斯殴打贾里德。

Here's Coach Randy, who broke up the fight.

这是兰迪教练，他制止了这场争斗。

Oh, golly.

哦，天哪。

Alex had him upside-down.

亚历克斯把他打倒了。

Do you know what a pile driver is?

你知道什么是打桩机吗？

No. What is it?

不，那是什么？

Randall Talley You literally have the person with his feet up in the air, and his head down between your legs.

兰德尔·塔利（Randall Talley）实际上，这个人双脚高举在空中，头低在你的两腿之间。

And you just drop to the ground, and the first thing that hits is your butt and his head at the same time.

然后你就倒在地上，首先撞到的是你的屁股和他的头。

Holy shit.

天哪。

Randall Talley Yeah.

兰德尔·塔利 是的。

Holy shit.

天哪。

Jared eventually returned to school.

贾里德最终回到了学校。

And then, one night, he was at a party.

然后，一天晚上，他参加了一场聚会。

It wasn't in a barn.

它不是在谷仓里。

It was at a house, but this was the origin story that Josh the cameraman had told me.

那是在一所房子里，但这是摄影师乔什告诉我的起源故事。

The beating in the countryside.

农村里的殴打。

Jared said the instigators were his friends, Mark and Brian.

贾里德说，煽动者是他的朋友马克和布莱恩。

The two guys who brought him to the party, did they know that they were taking him somewhere where he might get attacked?

带他来参加聚会的两个人，他们知道他们要带他去一个可能会遭到袭击的地方吗？

The other two guys that brought him?

把他带来的另外两个人呢？

Yeah, they loved fighting.

是的，他们喜欢打架。

It's all they did.

这就是他们所做的一切。

They fought all the time.

他们一直在战斗。

They figured that me or somebody would whup him.

他们认为我或其他人会打他。

They wanted to see it, so they brought him out there.

他们想看看，所以他们把他带到了那里。

And he come in, he's been drinking, and just hooping and hollering, and carrying on.

他进来了，他一直在喝酒，只是喊叫、大喊大叫，然后继续前进。

Finally, one of my buddies slapped him in the back of his hat.

最后，我的一个朋友打了他一巴掌。

And I was trying not to even look at him, you know?

我试着不去看他，你知道吗？

He thought it was me, and there we go.

他以为是我，然后我们就开始了。

He just pointed me out.

他只是指出了我。

He just picked me and said, "Come on.

他只是选择了我并说：“来吧。

I'm gonna beat your ass like I did before." You know?

我会像以前一样打你的屁股。”你知道？

He started all that flipping around, and flopping around the living room, and throwing his coat, throwing his hat.

他开始翻来覆去，在客厅里翻来覆去，扔掉外套，扔掉帽子。

Saying he's the devil, he's Satan, and he's gonna kill me.

说他是魔鬼，他是撒旦，他要杀了我。

I had to.

我不得不这么做。

It just was ridiculous that he was able-- that he did what he did to me.

真是可笑，他竟能对我做这些事。

I had to prove to myself, and all my friends, hey, man, this was a fluke deal, man.

我必须向自己和我所有的朋友证明，嘿，伙计，这是一次侥幸的交易，伙计。

You know?

你知道？

When I jumped on him, I hit him until I broke both my knuckles, my hands, until I couldn't hit him no more.

当我跳到他身上时，我打他，直到我的指关节、双手都折断，直到我再也打不动他为止。

I just reached over and grabbed this rake, this wooden handle-- steel rake, but wooden handle-- and I just thought I'd hit him in the back of the head with it.

我伸手抓住这个耙子，这个木柄——钢耙子，但木柄——我以为我用它击中了他的后脑勺。

And it knocked him down, and when he come back up running, that's when he ran into my buddy, and that was a mistake.

它把他击倒了，当他跑回来时，就撞到了我的朋友，那是一个错误。

My buddy grabbed him by the ears and planted his knee in his face.

我的朋友抓住他的耳朵，用膝盖抵住他的脸。

And he just took off running.

他刚刚开始跑步。

And I think two or three weeks later, they moved.

我想两三周后，他们搬家了。

Mm-hm.

嗯嗯。

Jon Ronson Because the Rolling Stone article said that he had uncovered some corruption in the Rockwall police force, and that's why they moved.

乔恩·罗森（Jon Ronson）因为滚石杂志的文章说他发现了罗克沃尔警察部队的一些腐败行为，这就是他们搬家的原因。

Yeah.

是的。

No, it was definitely nothing like that.

不，绝对不是那样的。

They couldn't go nowhere anymore.

他们已经不能再去任何地方了。

Nowhere to go, nobody to hang out with.

无处可去，没有人可以一起出去玩。

Nobody just couldn't stomach him.

没有人无法忍受他。

So he knew there was nothing left there in Rockwall for him.

所以他知道罗克沃尔对他来说已经没有什么了。

So Josh the cameraman's story had turned out to be sort of right.

所以摄影师乔什的故事被证明是正确的。

But he was wrong about a couple of things.

但他在一些事情上错了。

It wasn't a barn.

那不是谷仓。

It was a house.

那是一栋房子。

But more importantly, the way Josh told it, the fight was the thing that had made Alex a conspiracy theorist.

但更重要的是，正如乔什所说，这场战斗让亚历克斯成为了阴谋论者。

But Jared said, no, that's not true.

但贾里德说，不，那不是真的。

He said Alex always had his theories, even before then.

他说亚历克斯总是有他的理论，甚至在那之前也是如此。

Yeah, he had something to say about the principal, and the teachers, and the school cop, and everybody's doing all this.

是的，他对校长、老师、学校警察以及每个人都在做的事情有话要说。

If we were at the pool hall, it was the guy that owned the pool hall.

如果我们在台球厅，那就是台球厅的主人。

And he'd done called the DEA, and they were setting a deal up.

他已经给缉毒局打电话了，他们正在达成协议。

It was weird, man.

这很奇怪，伙计。

Everybody was like, what?

大家都说，什么？

Hey, guys.

嘿，伙计们。

I'm sorry I'm, like, five minutes late.

抱歉，我迟到了五分钟。

I was stuck getting back to the office.

我被困在回到办公室的路上。

I got a lot of crazy stuff going on.

我发生了很多疯狂的事情。

It's good to be here with you guys.

很高兴能和你们在一起。

It's a Thursday in February.

这是二月的一个星期四。

Alex is talking to me from his studio in Austin.

亚历克斯正在他位于奥斯汀的工作室与我交谈。

I'm at home in New York.

我在纽约的家里。

I think the crazy stuff Alex is referring to, by the way, is that a judge has just ordered him to give a sworn deposition in the court case brought against him by some Sandy Hook parents.

顺便说一句，我认为亚历克斯所指的疯狂的事情是，法官刚刚命令他在一些桑迪·胡克父母对他提起的法庭案件中提供宣誓证词。

Alex had one condition for doing this interview.

亚历克斯接受这次采访有一个条件。

He wanted to make a brief statement.

他想发表一个简短的声明。

Though my story isn't about Sandy Hook, this is what he wants to say.

虽然我的故事不是关于桑迪·胡克的，但这就是他想说的。

So here's my Sandy Hook statement.

这是我的桑迪·胡克声明。

Looking back, before I was ever sued, years ago, I reviewed the information, and I do believe the horror of Sandy Hook happened.

回想起来，几年前，在我被起诉之前，我查看了这些信息，我确实相信桑迪胡克的恐怖事件发生了。

By the way, that's only sort of true.

顺便说一句，这只是某种程度的真实。

Even after Alex first admitted that children died at Sandy Hook, he hedged, saying "they probably died," and "I tend to believe they died."

即使亚历克斯第一次承认孩子们在桑迪胡克死亡，他还是回避说，“他们可能死了”，“我倾向于相信他们死了”。

I have apologized to the families many times in the last few years if my reporting has caused them any pain.

如果我的报道给他们的家人带来任何痛苦，我在过去几年里已经多次向他们道歉。

These apologies are contentious, because he's apologized, but then continued to cast doubt on the shootings.

这些道歉是有争议的，因为他道歉了，但随后继续对枪击事件提出质疑。

I never said that anyone should harass the victims' families.

我从来没有说过任何人都应该骚扰受害者家属。

And I asked the media to please stop saying that I have said that.

我请求媒体不要再说我说过的话。

As best as we can tell, Alex never directly instructed his fans to harass the families.

据我们所知，亚历克斯从未直接指示他的粉丝骚扰这些家庭。

But on his broadcasts, he repeatedly talked about Lenny Pozner's ex-wife and son.

但在他的广播中，他多次谈到莱尼·波兹纳的前妻和儿子。

And he gave Pozner's mailing address, and showed Google Earth shots of the building, and said he would probably have to go there himself.

他给出了波兹纳的邮寄地址，并向谷歌地球展示了该建筑的照片，并表示他可能必须亲自前往那里。

I ask anyone else who is going to harass the families to stop.

我要求其他任何想要骚扰这些家庭的人停止。

What happened at Sandy Hook and similar events is a tragedy that needs to be recognized.

桑迪胡克发生的事情和类似事件是一场需要认识到的悲剧。

It's time for us to come together as Americans, and as humans, and defend the lives of children and other defenseless individuals.

现在是我们作为美国人和人类团结起来，保卫儿童和其他手无寸铁的个人的生命的时候了。

Period.

时期。

Alex declined to answer follow-up questions about Sandy Hook.

亚历克斯拒绝回答有关桑迪·胡克的后续问题。

I got to the business at hand.

我开始处理手头的事了。

OK, so there's a guy in Rockwall called Jared, but I think you knew him maybe as Bubba.

好吧，罗克沃尔有一个叫贾里德的人，但我想你可能知道他叫布巴。

Oh.

哦。

Oh, I remember Bubba, who was a senior, and I was, like, a freshman, coming and getting me out of class.

哦，我记得布巴，他是一名大四学生，而我，就像是一名新生，他来接我下课。

And he was, like, a hall monitor, so he could do it.

他就像一名大厅监视器，所以他可以做到这一点。

And then he attacked me in the hall, so I defended myself.

然后他在大厅里袭击了我，所以我为自己辩护。

And I'm sad that he got put in a coma, but that's just what happened.

我很遗憾他陷入昏迷，但事实就是这样。

I've never talked about this stuff, and I'm not particularly proud of it, but I always defended myself.

我从来没有谈论过这些事情，我也不为此感到特别自豪，但我总是为自己辩护。

I never started fights.

我从来没有开始打架。

This is different to Jared's version, by the way.

顺便说一下，这与 Jared 的版本不同。

In Jared's account, Alex started the fight.

在贾里德的描述中，亚历克斯开始了战斗。

Also, Jared said he wasn't in a coma, but he was hospitalized for multiple skull fractures.

贾里德还表示，他并未处于昏迷状态，但他因多处颅骨骨折而住院。

Jared said that he thought that you were trying to kill him.

贾里德说他认为你想杀他。

Well, when a 250 pound-- he would be a self-described redneck, and you weigh 160 pounds, starts attacking you, you defend yourself.

好吧，当一个 250 磅重的人——他自称是乡巴佬，而你体重 160 磅——开始攻击你时，你会保护自己。

So the way it works in America is, when someone physically attacks you, and you defend yourself, you're not the bad guy.

所以在美国的运作方式是，当有人对你进行身体攻击时，你保护自己，你就不是坏人。

By the way, Alex does confirm parts of Jared's story.

顺便说一句，亚历克斯确实证实了贾里德故事的部分内容。

He remembers his father paying the medical bills, though he doesn't recall a book about why it's wrong for people to sue people.

他记得他的父亲支付了医疗费用，尽管他不记得有一本关于为什么人们起诉别人是错误的书。

I felt real bad.

我感觉很糟糕。

My dad went and visited him at the hospital.

我爸爸去医院看望了他。

I mean, we weren't happy about it.

我的意思是，我们对此并不满意。

And I mean, that's the story you've got?

我的意思是，这就是你的故事？

What about the time-- I mean, you didn't hear about the time, like, 20 people attacked me?

那次呢——我的意思是，你没有听说那次，比如，20 个人袭击了我？

Well, the other story I heard was you were at a party, and some of Jared's friends attacked you.

嗯，我听到的另一个故事是你在一个聚会上，贾里德的一些朋友袭击了你。

So was that the story that you mean?

这就是你所说的故事吗？

No, that never happened.

不，那从未发生过。

So what supposedly happened at that?

那么当时到底发生了什么？

The story I heard is this.

我听到的故事是这样的。

It all started with Jared, with the geography, and then you were at a party, and some of Jared's--

这一切都从贾里德开始，从地理开始，然后你参加了一个聚会，贾里德的一些——

I told Alex everything Jared had said about the ambush.

我把贾里德所说的有关伏击的一切都告诉了亚历克斯。

And that's why you left town, was because of that party.

这就是你离开小镇的原因，因为那个聚会。

That's the story that I heard.

这就是我听到的故事。

Total, complete horse crap.

完全是马废话。

Total Shakespearean fiction.

完全莎士比亚小说。

So what happened is, I wasn't that big of a guy, and everybody would start fights with me.

所以发生的事情是，我不是那么大的人，每个人都会和我打架。

I mean, this is just total fiction, totally made up.

我的意思是，这完全是虚构的，完全是虚构的。

You didn't hear the part where the captain of the football team attacked me in the lunchroom, and I literally took on the entire senior football team?

你没听到足球队队长在餐厅攻击我，而我真的和整个高级足球队较量的那部分吗？

No, I did not hear that.

不，我没有听到。

Alex Jones That was an epic fight.

亚历克斯·琼斯 那是一场史诗般的战斗。

That was like Hercules.

这就像赫拉克勒斯。

It was like Popeye.

就像大力水手一样。

Like, pow, pow, pow.

就像，战俘，战俘，战俘。

It was just, like-- it was the greatest trip of my life.

这就像——这是我一生中最伟大的旅行。

I mean--

我的意思是——

Later, we talked to Alex's old friend Jacob, and one of the football players, and Coach Randy, and no one remembers it this way.

后来，我们采访了亚历克斯的老朋友雅各布、一位足球运动员和兰迪教练，但没有人这样记得。

At best, Jacob said, Alex fought off two or three football players.

雅各布说，亚历克斯充其量只能击退两到三名足球运动员。

Which is actually still quite impressive.

这实际上仍然令人印象深刻。

And then, like, the whole football team, the whole senior team charges me, like a phalanx.

然后，就像整个足球队、整个成年队向我发起进攻，就像方阵一样。

And I just-- pow, pow.

我只是——噗，噗。

I mean, it was the best.

我的意思是，这是最好的。

So I thought you were actually getting to that story.

所以我以为你真的开始讲那个故事了。

No. Alex Jones I mean, poor Bubba starting a fight with me, that was a minor conquest.

不，亚历克斯·琼斯，我的意思是，可怜的布巴开始和我打架，那是一个小小的征服。

I tell you what, if Bubba wants to have a charity, get in the ring with me today, I'll do it.

我告诉你，如果布巴想要举办慈善活动，今天和我一起参加拳击比赛，我会这么做的。

He's a big old tough guy.

他是个大老硬汉。

Let's get in the ring right now.

我们现在就进入擂台吧。

Well, he said he has to be very careful with his skull.

嗯，他说他必须非常小心他的头骨。

Well, he physically attacked me.

好吧，他对我进行了身体攻击。

Like, Ronson, if I came up and punched you in the face, would you have a right to defend yourself?

就像，罗森，如果我过来打你的脸，你有权利为自己辩护吗？

I would have a right to defend myself.

我有权为自己辩护。

I think it's unlikely that I would defend myself, because--

我认为我不太可能为自己辩护，因为——

Here's the thing, Jon, did I ever punch you in the face?

事情是这样的，乔恩，我打过你的脸吗？

Was I ever threatening physically to you?

我曾经对你进行过身体威胁吗？

No. Never.

不，从来没有。

Alex Jones Well, let's be honest.

亚历克斯·琼斯：好吧，说实话。

Have I not been a big old sweetie Teddy bear?

难道我不是一只又大又可爱的泰迪熊吗？

Alex is adamant that the party did not happen.

亚历克斯坚称聚会没有发生。

But we confirmed that it did.

但我们证实确实如此。

We talked to two people besides Jared who say that they were there.

我们采访了除了贾里德之外的两个人，他们说他们在那里。

One is named Marty Bottoms.

其中一位名叫马蒂·博顿斯。

He says he personally attacked Alex.

他说他亲自攻击了亚历克斯。

The other is Mark Milton.

另一个是马克·米尔顿。

When he phoned my producer Lina, she was asleep.

当他给我的制片人莉娜打电话时，她正在睡觉。

He was on his tractor, but Lina recorded it as best as she could.

他在拖拉机上，但莉娜尽力记录下来。

I'm probably gonna lose you when I drop down this rock, girl, but yeah, this is Mark Edward Milton.

当我掉下这块石头时，我可能会失去你，女孩，但是，是的，这是马克·爱德华·米尔顿。

Mark said he remembered Alex beating Jared unconscious in geography.

马克说他记得亚历克斯在地理课上把贾里德打昏了。

And then he said this.

然后他说了这句话。

We all ended up going to a party, and then some of Bubba's friends jumped him that night.

我们最后都去参加了一个聚会，然后那天晚上布巴的一些朋友袭击了他。

This was at a party after Alex beat up Jared?

这是在亚历克斯殴打贾里德之后的聚会上吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, this was at Mark's house, out there in McLendon-Chisholm.

是的，这是在马克的家里，位于麦克伦登-奇泽姆。

Yeah, they sold the condo over in Lakeside Village.

是的，他们卖掉了湖滨村的公寓。

And he couldn't take it from him being jumped by a couple of boys that was Bubba's friends, and he moved out of there.

他无法忍受被布巴的几个朋友的男孩袭击，所以他搬出了那里。

This is the story Josh had told me in the hotel lobby, and that Jared told me.

这是乔什在酒店大堂告诉我的故事，也是贾里德告诉我的。

It's the story Alex swears is untrue.

亚历克斯发誓这个故事不是真的。

Alex's family wouldn't talk to us, so I can't say exactly why they finally moved out of Rockwall.

亚历克斯的家人不会和我们说话，所以我不能确切地说出他们最终搬出罗克沃尔的原因。

In our interview, Alex retold the story of the school assembly, but he also named other reasons for their move.

在我们的采访中，亚历克斯重述了学校集会的故事，但他也指出了他们搬家的其他原因。

Like how his Austin-born mother was homesick, and fed up with all the fighting.

就像他出生于奥斯汀的母亲一样想家，厌倦了所有的争斗。

In the end, what seems clear is that this fight happened, and the assembly where Alex outed the drug dealing cops probably never did.

最后，似乎很清楚的是，这场战斗发生了，而亚历克斯揭露毒品交易警察的集会可能从未发生过。

If I had to guess, I would say that Alex has replaced a true story, where he's humiliated at a party, with a different story where he's a hero, standing up to corrupt cops and getting beaten up for his bravery.

如果我必须猜测的话，我会说亚历克斯用一个不同的故事取代了一个真实的故事，他在聚会上受到羞辱，他是一个英雄，勇敢地面对腐败的警察，并因勇敢而遭到殴打。

In a way, it's same story as the one where the whole football team came at him in a phalanx.

在某种程度上，这和整个足球队排成方阵向他扑来的故事是一样的。

It's the character he plays on Infowars, the beleaguered hero attacked from all sides, bloodied but undaunted, and emerging the victor.

这是他在《Infowars》中扮演的角色，这位四面楚歌的英雄受到四面八方的攻击，虽然浑身是血，但无所畏惧，最终取得了胜利。

It's like stories little kids tell about themselves.

这就像小孩子讲述自己的故事。

Alex disputes most of the other things that people told me about him.

亚历克斯对人们告诉我的关于他的大部分其他事情都提出了异议。

He says he did not pretend to be the Antichrist in high school, says he didn't roll his eyes back in his head or dye his tongue black.

他说他在高中时没有假装是反基督者，没有翻白眼，也没有把舌头染成黑色。

He says he never told a classmate how he would like to rape her.

他说他从未告诉过同学他想强奸她。

He calls all of that insane garbage.

他称所有这些都是疯狂的垃圾。

He says he doesn't punch cabinets, or rip down blinds in the office.

他说他不会打橱柜，也不会撕掉办公室的百叶窗。

During our reporting, something very strange kept happening.

在我们的报道过程中，一些非常奇怪的事情不断发生。

It happened during Lina's call with Mark, the tractor man.

这件事发生在莉娜与拖拉机工马克通话期间。

Mark's daughter, Chelsea, was listening on mute as he was telling Lina how he knew for certain that the police assembly story was a lie.

马克的女儿切尔西在静音中聆听他告诉莉娜他如何确定警察集会的故事是谎言。

Just then, Chelsea unmuted herself and said to her father--

就在这时，切尔西突然不再沉默，对她的父亲说道——

Nobody knows what he found out about the cops, so you can't speak and say all the reason why he left Rockwall.

没有人知道他对警察的了解，所以你不能说出他离开罗克沃尔的所有原因。

Because he might have found out stuff that you didn't even know about.

因为他可能发现了你甚至不知道的东西。

It kept happening.

它一直在发生。

All these people who knew for sure that Alex had been a liar back in Rockwall.

所有这些人都确信亚历克斯在罗克沃尔是个骗子。

A lot of them believed that what he says on Infowars might be true.

他们中的很多人相信他在 Infowars 上所说的可能是真的。

They have a reference for him, like Coach Randy.

他们有他的推荐人，比如兰迪教练。

I agree with so many things what he says.

我同意他所说的很多事情。

A lot of people just think it.

很多人只是这么想。

Alex goes ahead and says it.

亚历克斯继续说道。

But not Jared.

但贾里德不是。

Actually, Jared had somehow gone through life not realizing that Alex was a radio host.

事实上，贾里德一生都没有意识到亚历克斯是一名电台主持人。

And when I brought it up, it was awkward.

当我提起它时，它很尴尬。

And you know who's a fan of his now?

你知道现在谁是他的粉丝吗？

Donald Trump.

唐纳德·特朗普。

Is he?

他是吗？

Jon Ronson Yeah.

乔恩·罗森 是的。

Donald Trump's been on his show.

唐纳德·特朗普参加了他的节目。

He talks about what a great reputation Alex has.

他谈到了亚历克斯的声誉。

I could tell that Jared didn't want to hear that President Trump was an Alex fan.

我看得出贾里德不想听到特朗普总统是亚历克斯的粉丝。

He gave me a look to say, "are you fake news?"

他看了我一眼说：“你是假新闻吗？”

With the media and stuff, I don't know.

对于媒体和其他东西，我不知道。

I mean, I don't know what to-- I don't know.

我的意思是，我不知道该做什么——我不知道。

I wouldn't-- I don't know to believe that or not.

我不会——我不知道是否相信这一点。

Do they?

他们有吗？

Jon Ronson Yeah.

乔恩·罗森 是的。

It's like all of that craziness that happened at Rockwall High School, Alex and making stuff up, and now Donald Trump's a fan.

就像罗克沃尔高中发生的所有疯狂事情一样，亚历克斯编造了一些东西，现在唐纳德·特朗普是他的粉丝。

The fact is, he's carried on saying all of these crazy things, but it's no longer about the school or the pool hall.

事实上，他一直在说这些疯狂的话，但不再是关于学校或台球厅的事情了。

Now it's about the globalists and the Muslims.

现在是关于全球主义者和穆斯林的。

People believe him now, including the president.

现在人们相信他，包括总统。

[SIGHS] Jared I mean-- I mean, who's to say.

[叹气]贾里德我是说——我是说，谁说得准呢。

I mean-- I mean, some of the stuff he says could be true.

我的意思是——我的意思是，他说的一些事情可能是真的。

It could be.

可能是。

I mean, Obama, he could be a Muslim.

我的意思是，奥巴马，他可​​能是穆斯林。

He could back them up, the radical Muslims.

他可以支持他们，即激进的穆斯林。

And he could have been giving them money behind-- I mean, who knows?

他本可以在背后给他们钱——我的意思是，谁知道呢？

We don't know.

我们不知道。

I mean, we hear what they want us to hear.

我的意思是，我们听到他们想让我们听到的内容。

We see what they want us to see.

我们看到他们想让我们看到的东西。

I mean, anything could be anything.

我的意思是，任何事都可以是任何事。

Jared, more than anyone, might have understood that Alex doesn't always tell the truth.

贾里德可能比任何人都更明白亚历克斯并不总是说实话。

But no, this is Alex's legacy, the chaos he sows in the world, the feeling that nothing can be known for sure.

但不，这是亚历克斯的遗产，他在世界上播下的混乱，以及一切都无法确定的感觉。

Jon Ronson.

乔恩·罗森.

He and his, producer Lina Misitzis, originally created a version of this story for audible.com, where they also did Jon's latest long form original for Audible, The Last Days of August, a deep dive into the never before told story of what caused the untimely death of 23-year-old porn star August Ames.

他和他的制作人 Lina Misitzis 最初为 Audible.com 创作了这个故事的一个版本，他们还为 Audible 制作了乔恩最新的长篇原创作品《八月的最后几天》，深入探讨了导致 23 岁色情明星奥古斯特·艾姆斯英年早逝的前所未闻的故事。

It's available exclusively on audible.com.

它仅在 audible.com 上提供。

Audible is the world's largest producer and provider of downloadable audio books and other spoken word entertainment.

Audible 是全球最大的可下载有声读物和其他口语娱乐的生产商和提供商。

Our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis.

我们今天的节目由 Dana Chivvis 制作。

The people who put our show together today includes Ben Calhoun, Sean Cole, Aviva DeKornfeld, Damien Graef, Michelle Harris, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Catherine Raimondo, Ben Phelan, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Semien, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.

今天节目的制作人包括 Ben Calhoun、Sean Cole、Aviva DeKornfeld、Damien Graef、Michelle Harris、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Catherine Raimondo、Ben Phelan、Nadia Reiman、Robyn Semien、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。

Our managing editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的总编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Special thanks today to Sandy and Lonnie Phillips, Whitney Phillips, Dr. Kenneth Henderson, Joel Ronson, Elizabeth Scholer, David Bloom, Jonathan Kerlan, Sophia Hillsman, and Eric Newsom.

今天特别感谢桑迪·菲利普斯和朗尼·菲利普斯、惠特尼·菲利普斯、肯尼思·亨德森博士、乔尔·朗森、伊丽莎白·舍勒、大卫·布鲁姆、乔纳森·克兰、索菲亚·希尔斯曼和埃里克·纽瑟姆。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can download as many episodes as you want on the This American Life app.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在 This American Life 应用程序上下载任意数量的剧集。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

He recently tried Axe Body Spray.

他最近尝试了 Axe Body Spray。

You know that stuff?

你知道那些东西吗？

He didn't like it.

他不喜欢这样。

I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.

我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。