669: Scrambling to Get Off the Ice - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #669 | March 1, 2019 669: Scrambling to Get Off the Ice Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 669 集 | 2019 年 3 月 1 日 669：争先恐后地摆脱困境 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Mike was out with his dog.

序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯·迈克和他的狗出去了。

It was a January night.

那是一月的一个夜晚。

He was on the C&O Canal in Washington DC.

他当时正在华盛顿特区的 C&O 运河上。

I've been there.

我去过那里。

It's like you're in the city, but it feels like you're in the woods.

仿佛置身于城市，又仿佛置身于森林之中。

On one side of you is the Potomac River.

您的一侧是波托马克河。

On the other side there's this pretty old canal, which was frozen over that night.

另一边有一条相当古老的运河，那天晚上它就结冰了。

He gets around three miles out in his jog and stops to stretch.

他慢跑了大约三英里，然后停下来伸展身体。

His dog, Looly, is off leash.

他的狗卢利没有拴绳。

And so I remember throwing a stick down near the water, just seeing if she'd go after it.

所以我记得我把一根棍子扔到水边，看看她是否会去追它。

And I started stretching.

我开始伸展身体。

And I'm getting my calves.

我正在得到我的小腿。

And I'm looking toward the Potomac, so I'm not really paying attention to her.

我正看着波托马克河，所以我并没有真正注意她。

I turned around.

我转过身来。

Couldn't have been more than 30, 40 seconds.

不可能超过30、40秒。

And she's in the middle of the canal, probably 30, 35 feet out there.

她就在运河中央，距离大概有 30、35 英尺。

She's standing on the ice, and she's sniffing around.

她站在冰上，四处嗅着。

And I go, Looly, Looly, get back here.

我就走，卢利，卢利，回到这里。

And she puts her head up.

她抬起头。

And it couldn't have been more than three seconds later I just heard this sploosh.

不到三秒钟，我就听到了扑通扑通的声音。

And she goes through.

她经历了。

And I'm freaking out.

我吓坏了。

[LAUGHING] And I all of a sudden, OK, OK, she'll get out of this.

[笑]我突然觉得，好吧，好吧，她会摆脱困境的。

She's a dog, they can contort out of anything.

她是一只狗，他们可以扭曲任何东西。

And she started trying to get her paws up on the ice.

她开始尝试将爪子放在冰上。

And they just kept slipping off.

他们只是不断地滑落。

And she was kicking it like crazy from behind.

她从后面疯狂地踢它。

And a good minute goes by.

美好的一分钟过去了。

And now I'm sort of trying to coax her out gently, like Looly, come on.

现在我有点想像卢利一样温柔地哄她出来，来吧。

Come on, baby.

来吧，宝贝。

Come on, girl.

来吧，女孩。

Come on.

快点。

And a minute goes by.

一分钟过去了。

And I'm starting to think, OK, this is not good.

我开始想，好吧，这不好。

And then two minutes go by.

然后两分钟过去了。

And she's starting to whimper, these little-- [WHIMPERING] And I'm going, oh, man.

她开始呜咽，这些小——[呜咽]我要走了，哦，伙计。

And I'm looking around.

我环顾四周。

There's nobody around.

周围没有人。

It's pitch dark.

天黑了。

I only remember even two people on the trail running that I even saw.

我什至只记得我什至见过两个人在越野跑。

Today's show is about how do you choose what to do.

今天的节目是关于你如何选择做什么。

How do you decide your move in a daunting situation where stakes are high?

在风险很高、令人生畏的情况下，你如何决定采取行动？

Like Mike, he's got no rope.

像迈克一样，他没有绳子。

His dog is too far out to use a branch or something.

他的狗太远了，无法使用树枝或其他东西。

There's no time to get help.

没有时间寻求帮助。

So what's he do?

那么他在做什么呢？

I literally thought about some Discovery Channel thing I'd watched once.

我确实想到了我曾经看过的探索频道的一些内容。

And the guy was showing you, if you never want to fall through ice, how to distribute your body weight, if you put this much here and this much here.

那个人正在向你展示，如果你不想掉进冰里，如何分配你的体重，如果你在这里放这么多，在这里放这么多。

You mean you spread your body out, like you're lying on the ice?

你的意思是你把身体摊开，就像躺在冰上一样？

Is that how?

是这样吗？

Right.

正确的。

Right.

正确的。

I put my arms out and my legs, like I'm almost splayed.

我伸出双臂和双腿，就像我几乎要张开一样。

And I'm slowly moving across it.

我正在慢慢地跨过它。

And you're on your stomach?

而你是趴着的吗？

Mike Wise I'm on my back.

迈克·怀斯 我在我的背上。

I'm on my back.

我在我的背上。

He thinks, OK, worst case scenario, if the ice breaks-- well, he had actually jumped into the canal once.

他想，好吧，最糟糕的情况是，如果冰破裂的话——好吧，他实际上已经跳进了运河一次。

And he's 6' 4".

他身高 6 英尺 4 英寸。

The water only came up to his chest.

水只到了他的胸口。

So again, worst case, he could still grab the dog and walk out.

所以，在最坏的情况下，他仍然可以抓住狗并走出去。

We're talking the canal here.

我们这里说的是运河。

We're not talking the Colorado River.

我们说的不是科罗拉多河。

And it was the classic miscalculation because I started to move out to her-- and I wasn't that far from her.

这是典型的误判，因为我开始搬到她那里去——而我离她并不远。

I can't remember, maybe 10, 15 feet.

我记不清了，大概是10、15英尺吧。

And she's looking at me.

她正在看着我。

And she's in kind of a little ice hole.

她就在一个小冰洞里。

And she's trying to get toward me.

她正试图接近我。

And in my head, I just had this sort of weird thought that I hadn't thought of before.

在我的脑海里，我有一种以前从未想过的奇怪想法。

My dog is about 65 pounds.

我的狗重约 65 磅。

I'm about 205 pounds, 210 at that point.

那时我的体重大约是205磅，210磅。

What if the chip-- boosh, I go right through.

如果芯片——嘘，我直接通过了怎么办？

I fell through the ice myself.

我自己也掉进了冰里。

And the shocking thing was, I'm tasting sulfur.

令人震惊的是，我尝到了硫磺的味道。

I'm tasting the sediment of the thing.

我正在品尝那东西的沉淀物。

And I can't stand.

我无法忍受。

Mike was a sportswriter for The Washington Post when all this happened years ago.

当这一切发生在几年前时，迈克是《华盛顿邮报》的一名体育记者。

And he wrote a really beautiful account of what came next for the newspaper.

他为报纸接下来的发展写了一篇非常精彩的报道。

And as part of that, he researched-- and yeah, the center of the C&O Canal does get much deeper than 6' 4".

作为其中的一部分，他进行了研究——是的，C&O 运河的中心确实比 6 英尺 4 英寸深得多。

So he's in the water.

所以他在水里。

He's only about five feet away from his dog.

他离他的狗只有大约五英尺远。

He wrote that plunging into the icy water, the moment that happened, the water shocked him like a dental drill hitting an exposed nerve.

他写道，跳入冰冷的水中的那一刻，水让他震惊，就像牙钻击中裸露的神经一样。

That's what it felt like.

就是这样的感觉。

Boom, it was freezing.

砰，天很冷。

And then one of the things that's very arresting about reading your account of this is just how fast things go south for you.

阅读你的描述时，最引人注目的一件事就是事情对你来说进展得有多快。

It's like you're trying to pull yourself up on the ice.

就像你试图在冰上把自己拉起来一样。

And then right within two minutes, you can't even feel your hands.

然后不到两分钟，你甚至感觉不到自己的手了。

And your lower extremities are beginning to feel numb.

而你的下肢也开始感觉麻木。

The dog is in even worse shape than you.

狗的状况比你还要糟糕。

Yeah.

是的。

She's just looking toward me for help.

她只是向我寻求帮助。

But every time I try to push myself up on the ice, it cracks a little.

但每次我试图把自己推到冰上时，冰都会裂开一点。

I can't get on a solid piece.

我无法获得坚实的一块。

And I'm starting to get cuts on my wrists as I'm going up on the ice.

当我在冰上行走时，我的手腕开始被割伤。

And I'm probably panicking at that point a little too because I don't have much time.

那时我可能也有点恐慌，因为我没有太多时间。

These things happen quickly.

这些事情发生得很快。

He tried over and over to lurch himself up under the ice.

他一遍又一遍地试图把自己从冰下爬起来。

But every time he did, it would break underneath him, and he'd be back in the water.

但每次他这样做时，它就会在他身下破裂，然后他就会回到水中。

He made it to his dog Looly.

他成功找到了他的狗卢利。

She put her paws on his back to hold herself up.

她把爪子放在他的背上，以支撑自己。

It wasn't clear what to do.

目前还不清楚该怎么做。

He thought about the stories you always hear, about people who die in the wilderness hiking or whatever.

他想到了你经常听到的故事，关于在荒野徒步旅行或其他什么地方死去的人的故事。

There's a cameraman from The Washington Post newsroom who he'd known named John.

他认识《华盛顿邮报》新闻编辑室的一位摄影师，名叫约翰。

He was a kayaker, biggest, strongest guy I ever saw in the newsroom.

他是一名皮划艇运动员，是我在新闻编辑室见过的最大、最强壮的人。

He died in a kayak accident because the water pinned him under in West Virginia somewhere.

他在一次皮划艇事故中丧生，因为水把他压在了西弗吉尼亚州的某个地方。

And we had this big funeral for him.

我们为他举办了一场盛大的葬礼。

And I just thought of all those stories.

我只是想到了所有这些故事。

And I had this really selfish, vain moment where I thought, I'm not dying in the Kodiak region.

我有一个非常自私、虚荣的时刻，我想，我不会死在科迪亚克地区。

I'm not dying in the Gallatin or the Madison in Montana.

我不会死在蒙大拿州的加勒廷或麦迪逊。

I'm friggin' 15 minutes from a Ralph Lauren store and a Five Guys.

我距离 Ralph Lauren 商店和 Five Guys 商店只有 15 分钟路程。

Georgetown's down the street.

乔治敦就在这条街上。

My main thing was I didn't have a lot of time.

我最重要的是我没有很多时间。

I didn't know how much time I was in there, but literally, my legs were starting to freeze up.

我不知道我在那里呆了多久，但从字面上看，我的腿开始冻僵了。

And so at that point, the only thing I could think of was, I can't get up here on my own.

所以在那一点上，我唯一能想到的是，我无法独自站到这里。

And she looks worse off than me.

而且她看起来比我还糟糕。

And so I took my right arm and put it under her like a big fishing hook.

于是我拿起我的右臂，把它像一个大鱼钩一样放在她身下。

And then with all of his strength, he heaved Looly up onto the ice.

然后他用尽全力，把卢利拖到了冰面上。

She scampered to the bank, shook herself off, ran down the trail, then realized he wasn't with her, and came back.

她跑到岸边，甩掉身上的衣服，沿着小路跑下去，然后意识到他没有和她在一起，然后又回来了。

Now she kept a safe distance on the shore.

现在她在岸边保持着安全距离。

He thought to himself, who's going to find his dog when he's gone?

他心想，当他走了之后，谁能找到他的狗呢？

Who's going to take care of her?

谁来照顾她？

It was quiet.

很安静。

He could hear cars in the distance.

他能听到远处汽车的声音。

This moment, he wrote about it.

这一刻，他写下了这件事。

And I asked him to read it for us.

我请他为我们读一下。

"I had been in the freezing water for about three minutes, I figured.

“我想我已经在冰冷的水中呆了大约三分钟了。

I half remembered reading an article that said hypothermia could set in between four and seven minutes.

我依稀记得读过一篇文章，说体温过低可能会在四到七分钟内发生。

I drew in deep breaths and paused maybe 10 seconds.

我深吸了一口气，停顿了大约 10 秒钟。

I figured I had one minute, maybe two with physical exertion left.

我想我还剩下一分钟，也许两分钟的体力消耗。

I felt nothing in my hands and arms, which just slid off the ice each time I tried to pull myself up.

我的手和手臂没有任何感觉，每次我试图把自己拉起来时，它们就从冰上滑下来。

I wanted to believe there was an internal survival mechanism that would kick in, an uber human force that would enable me to rescue myself.

我想相信有一种内在的生存机制会启动，一种超级人类的力量可以让我拯救自己。

But losing muscular function prevents those surreal endings.

但失去肌肉功能可以阻止那些超现实的结局。

I began to consider my options and arrived at a plan I should have thought of before I went in after her."

我开始考虑我的选择，并制定了一个我应该在追赶她之前想到的计划。”

The plan?

计划？

He called for help, loud as he could.

他尽可能大声地呼救。

Screamed, and waited for a while.

尖叫一声，等了一会儿。

Nothing.

没有什么。

"Suddenly I didn't feel cold or frozen.

“突然之间，我不再感到寒冷或冰冻。

And that, I would learn later, meant I was heading into stage two of hypothermia.

后来我才知道，这意味着我正进入体温过低的第二阶段。

I remember leaning my elbows on the ice for balance and looking at Looly pacing along the bank."

我记得我把肘部靠在冰面上保持平衡，看着卢利沿着河岸踱步。”

And then a guy showed up, a law student who'd been out for a jog.

然后一个人出现了，一个出去慢跑的法律系学生。

He sees Mike.

他看到了迈克。

And his opening line is, hey, so what are you doing in the ice?

他的开场白是，嘿，那你在冰里做什么？

The way he gets Mike out is that he wades into the cold water, breaking the ice as he walks forward, his feet solidly on the ground, never getting in too deep.

他把迈克救出来的方法是涉入冰冷的水中，向前走时打破冰面，双脚牢牢地踩在地上，永远不会陷得太深。

And then Mike breaks the ice and kind of lurches towards him.

然后迈克打破了僵局，摇摇晃晃地向他走来。

So we're probably about 15 feet from each other.

所以我们彼此之间的距离大约是 15 英尺。

And I just kept lunging and lunging.

我只是不断地向前冲。

And I got a couple of feet more.

我又多了几英尺。

And all of a sudden, I could feel my feet touch the bottom.

突然间，我感觉我的脚触到了底部。

And it was at that moment, I was like, oh, my god, I'm freezing, but I'm going to get out of here.

就在那一刻，我想，哦，天哪，我冻僵了，但我要离开这里。

The student's name is Jason Coates, who's still in regular touch today over a decade later.

这位学生的名字叫杰森·科茨 (Jason Coates)，十多年后的今天，我们仍然经常与他联系。

Over that time, Mike's thought a lot about that night in the canal when he nearly died.

在那段时间里，迈克经常想起在运河里差点死去的那个夜晚。

In hindsight, do you think you made the wrong calculation and the wrong choice trying to save your dog?

事后看来，你是否认为你在拯救你的狗时做出了错误的计算和错误的选择？

I made the wrong calculation when I took her leash off along a frozen canal.

当我沿着结冰的运河解开她的皮带时，我做出了错误的计算。

I know, but the real choice that endangered your life was to decide to go rescue her.

我知道，但真正危及你生命的选择是决定去营救她。

In retrospect, do you think, well, that was just the wrong choice?

回想起来，你是否认为那只是错误的选择？

I should not have tried to rescue her.

我不应该试图营救她。

No. I don't think I made the wrong choice.

不，我不认为我做出了错误的选择。

Because--

因为——

Wow.

哇。

Mike Wise --a life without her-- the next 10 years wouldn't have been a life worth living.

迈克·怀斯——没有她的生活——接下来的十年就不值得过。

No. Come on.

不，来吧。

Really?

真的吗？

Mike Wise I mean that sincerely.

迈克·怀斯（Mike Wise）我是真诚的。

You almost died.

你差点就死了。

You're just lucky that somebody was passing by.

你很幸运有人路过。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

That dog was everything to me.

那只狗对我来说就是一切。

Now, you're married now.

现在，你已经结婚了。

Mike Wise Yeah.

迈克·怀斯 是的。

When you've told your wife this story, does she agree with that assessment, do you think, that you should have gone in?

当你告诉你的妻子这个故事时，她是否同意你的评估，你认为你应该进去吗？

Like is this an example to her of something about your judgment?

这是向她展示你的判断力的一个例子吗？

[LAUGHING] Oh, she has 10 other examples of bad judgment.

[笑]哦，她还有其他 10 个错误判断的例子。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Yeah, there's definitely, as my wife says, Señor Drama.

是的，正如我妻子所说，肯定有戏剧先生。

OK, Señor Drama, take it easy.

好吧，戏剧先生，放轻松。

And so, yeah, I definitely lead with my heart.

所以，是的，我绝对用我的心来引导。

Well, today on our radio show, we have stories like this one of people in difficult situations trying, basically, to scramble their way up onto the ice and having to invent how to do it, trying one thing after another.

好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，我们有这样的故事：一个人在困难的情况下试图爬上冰面，并且不得不发明如何做到这一点，尝试一件又一件的事情。

That kind of battle, it brings out who you really are.

那样的战斗，会显露出你的真实身份。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, New Sheriffs in Town.

第一幕，镇上的新警长。

So the House of Representatives, of course, is where the Democrats are now in the majority.

因此，众议院当然是民主党现在占多数的地方。

And they are flexing their muscles.

他们正在展示他们的肌肉。

Take the Michael Cohen hearing that just happened.

以刚刚发生的迈克尔·科恩听证会为例。

If Republicans are still in charge of the House, do you think that could have ever happened?

如果共和党仍然掌控众议院，您认为这种情况会发生吗？

We're in for lots more hearings like that.

我们还会举办更多这样的听证会。

And if you believe the news, the Mueller report about what the president did and did not do is apparently maybe close to being done.

如果你相信这个消息，穆勒关于总统做了什么和没有做什么的报告显然可能即将完成。

When that comes out, it'll probably mean hearings, about whether it's going to be released to the public, about whatever it is that it says.

当这个消息出来时，可能意味着要举行听证会，讨论是否要向公众发布该消息，以及它所说的内容。

And a lot of that is probably going to happen in the House Judiciary Committee.

其中很多事情可能会在众议院司法委员会发生。

Now, that's a different committee from the one that did the Cohen hearings.

现在，这是一个与举行科恩听证会的委员会不同的委员会。

Our producer Zoe Chace spent weeks with the Judiciary Committee as they prepared for their very first oversight hearing.

我们的制片人佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 与司法委员会一起度过了数周时间，为他们的第一次监督听证会做准备。

It happened a few weeks ago.

事情发生在几周前。

And she watched them during this first hearing, trying to exercise the new power that they got when they took the majority, the power to drag in whoever they want and grill them with questions before the cameras.

她在第一次听证会上观察了他们，试图运用他们在获得多数席位时获得的新权力，即可以拉动任何他们想要的人，并在镜头前用问题拷问他们的权力。

As we hear, it was not a cakewalk.

正如我们所听到的，这并不是一件容易的事。

The Democrats had to fight for every step, adjust tactics, try this and that.

民主党必须为每一步而奋斗，调整策略，尝试这个、那个。

Here's Zoe.

这是佐伊。

The House Judiciary Committee has its own hearing room-- long gold drapes, rich blue carpet.

众议院司法委员会有自己的听证室——长长的金色窗帘，华丽的蓝色地毯。

And the way the room is set up, everywhere you look is a reminder of exactly who's in power and who is out.

房间的布置方式，无论你看到什么，都在提醒人们到底谁在掌权，谁在下台。

The C-Span cameras are set up stage left so the Congress people and the majority are shot at the best angle.

C-Span 摄像机安装在舞台左侧，以便以最佳角度拍摄国会议员和大多数人。

They just look better on TV.

他们只是在电视上看起来更好。

The minority staffers have to squeeze awkwardly behind the cameras just to get up to their members on the dais.

少数族裔工作人员必须笨拙地挤在镜头后面，才能走到讲台上的成员身边。

It's not dignified.

这没有尊严。

The majority has a much bigger staff.

大多数人拥有更多的员工。

It controls the budget.

它控制预算。

Even the portraits on the wall of the past chairmen that look down on everything, even those are arranged so that the majority's portrait gets the benefit of that better camera angle.

即使是墙上那些俯视一切的前任主席的肖像，甚至那些肖像也是经过精心安排的，以便大多数人的肖像能够从更好的拍摄角度中受益。

You know who knows every inch of this room, including even the parts behind the scenes that the mortals never see?

你知道谁知道这个房间的每一寸，甚至包括凡人从未见过的幕后部分？

Jerry Nadler.

杰里·纳德勒。

There's a door to the right, to the right of the committee room doors.

右边有一扇门，在委员会房间门的右边。

Nadler is the new chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.

纳德勒是众议院司法委员会的新主席。

You walk in that door, that's the minority staff room.

你走进那扇门，那是少数族裔员工的房间。

And you'll see a narrow corridor, two very small bathrooms, an office, a little space for a printer or for a microwave.

你会看到一条狭窄的走廊、两间很小的浴室、一间办公室、一个放置打印机或微波炉的小空间。

A printer or a microwave, that really sums up the choices the minority gets.

打印机或微波炉，这确实概括了少数人的选择。

It's where Nadler's been for the last eight years, but no longer.

纳德勒在过去八年里一直呆在这儿，但现在不再了。

Now walk in on the other side of the committee room, and you won't see that little thing.

现在走进委员会会议室的另一边，你就看不到那个小东西了。

You see a suite of eight, or nine, or 10 offices.

您会看到一套由八个、九个或十个办公室组成的套房。

A suite-- nice, big offices with couches and extra chairs for big staff meetings.

套房——漂亮的大办公室，配有沙发和额外的椅子，可供大型员工会议使用。

The point is, the switch is always extreme.

关键是，这种转变总是极端的。

Right now, it's an especially big deal.

现在，这是一件特别重要的事情。

The House leadership has made clear they're going to push back against President Trump.

众议院领导层已明确表示他们将反击特朗普总统。

They're passing bills.

他们正在通过法案。

They're running oversight hearings and investigations.

他们正在进行监督听证会和调查。

Nadler's committee, the Judiciary Committee, is looking for the answer to the very slow motion movie we've been watching since President Trump took office.

纳德勒的委员会，即司法委员会，正在寻找自特朗普总统上任以来我们一直在观看的慢动作电影的答案。

Did the president abuse his power?

总统是否滥用职权？

Did the president obstruct justice?

总统是否妨碍司法公正？

Hanging over that question, for Nadler, is the possibility of impeachment, because impeachment proceedings, if they ever happened, would start in the Judiciary Committee.

对于纳德勒来说，悬而未决的问题是弹劾的可能性，因为弹劾程序如果发生的话，将在司法委员会启动。

But for now, it's just hearings, hearings for days, hearings as far as the eye can see.

但目前，这只是听证会，几天的听证会，目所能及的听证会。

And for every hearing that makes the news that rises like a bubble to the surface where we can see it, there is this churn underneath of meetings and pre-meetings and strategy sessions.

每一次听证会都会让新闻像泡沫一样浮出水面，在我们能看到的地方，在会议、会前和战略会议的背后都会有这种搅动。

That's the work I'm here to see.

这就是我来这里要看的作品。

Nadler and his staff are gathered in his newly giant office, strategizing around their first oversight hearing.

纳德勒和他的工作人员聚集在他新建成的巨大办公室里，围绕他们的第一次监督听证会制定战略。

He's editing a letter half out loud.

他正在半大声地编辑一封信。

His typical pose, bottom drawer of his desk pulled out, his right foot up on it, and leaning way too far back, like he's going to tip over.

他的典型姿势是，办公桌底部的抽屉被拉出，右脚放在上面，向后倾斜得太远，就像他要翻倒一样。

He's making notes, debating with his staff.

他正在做笔记，与他的员工辩论。

Well, I don't know that they're bound by it.

嗯，我不知道他们是否受此约束。

Right.

正确的。

Nadler's like their constitutional law professor.

纳德勒就像他们的宪法学教授。

He is actually a constitutional lawyer.

他实际上是一名宪法律师。

Nadler's 71 years old, a liberal congressman from New York, represents primarily the West Side of Manhattan, spends a lot of weekends with a megaphone hollering about civil rights, spends his weekdays with piles of paper.

纳德勒现年 71 岁，是一位来自纽约的自由派国会议员，主要代表曼哈顿西区，很多周末都拿着扩音器高喊民权，工作日则拿着成堆的文件。

This is back in January.

这是一月份的事了。

Nadler and his staff want acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker to appear before the Judiciary Committee.

纳德勒和他的工作人员希望代理司法部长马修·惠特克出席司法委员会的听证会。

This letter is negotiating a time and sending him topic areas they want to cover-- the southern border, the Affordable Care Act, and primarily questions about you, sir, and your highly unusual, brief tenure as attorney general.

这封信正在协商时间，并向他发送他们想要涵盖的主题领域——南部边境、《平价医疗法案》，以及主要关于您的问题，先生，以及您作为司法部长的极不寻常的短暂任期。

Whitaker is important, even though he's a temporary villain.

惠特克很重要，尽管他只是暂时的恶棍。

He's a plot point in the story Nadler and the House Democrats want to tell.

他是纳德勒和众议院民主党人想要讲述的故事中的一个情节点。

Or he might be.

或者他可能是。

That's why they need to ask him a bunch of questions in a hearing under oath.

这就是为什么他们需要在宣誓听证会上问他一系列问题。

We all suspect he was put there for one reason and one reason only, to interfere with the Mueller investigation.

我们都怀疑他被放在那里的原因只有一个，那就是干扰穆勒的调查。

Sessions--

会议--

Former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, Whitaker replaced him.

惠特克接替了前司法部长杰夫·塞申斯(Jeff Sessions)。

Sessions recused himself and wouldn't protect the president against the Mueller investigation.

塞申斯本人回避，也不会保护总统免受穆勒调查。

Is fired because he wouldn't protect the president against the Mueller investigation.

因无法保护总统免受穆勒调查而被解雇。

Whitaker, who's written nasty things about the Mueller investigation, is hired with no visible qualifications.

惠特克曾写过有关穆勒调查的恶劣言论，但他在没有任何明显资历的情况下被聘用。

[INAUDIBLE] obviously for the purpose of protecting the president from the Mueller investigation.

[听不清]显然是为了保护总统免受穆勒调查。

Whatever is obvious to Nadler, if he wants the public to believe it, he's got to show it in a hearing.

无论对纳德勒来说显而易见的事情，如果他想让公众相信它，他就必须在听证会上证明这一点。

His committee needs to ask pointed questions and make sure Whitaker answers them.

他的委员会需要提出尖锐的问题并确保惠特克回答这些问题。

That's the letter full of topics that Nadler's working on.

这封信充满了纳德勒正在研究的话题。

At this point, he may not answer the questions.

此时，他可能不会回答问题。

And we can't tolerate that.

我们不能容忍这种情况。

That is correct.

这是正确的。

Jerry Nadler OK, that's what I'll say.

杰里·纳德勒：好吧，我就是这么说的。

That voice in the background is Aaron, Nadler's deputy chief counsel.

背景中的声音是纳德勒的副首席法律顾问亚伦。

Aaron's one of the two people on Nadler's core staff who's allowed, sometimes, to speak into a microphone.

亚伦是纳德勒核心员工中有时被允许对着麦克风讲话的两个人之一。

He believes really hard in his job.

他对自己的工作充满信心。

Instead of saying the country, he'll say the republic.

他不会说国家，而是说共和国。

Now one question we should discuss is whether we should prepare a subpoena for Whitaker, even though we hopefully would never have to use it.

现在我们应该讨论的一个问题是我们是否应该为惠特克准备一张传票，即使我们希望永远不需要使用它。

We should certainly prepare it.

我们当然应该做好准备。

My only question is, does that look belligerent, like we're doing something?

我唯一的问题是，这看起来像是好战的吗，就像我们正在做某事一样？

That's the concern.

这就是我们关心的问题。

Zoe Chace Nadler and his staff are considering deploying the biggest weapon they have early in the game, the subpoena.

佐伊·切斯·纳德勒和他的工作人员正在考虑部署他们在游戏初期拥有的最大武器——传票。

You'll hear a lot about the subpoena in this story and, I believe, in the coming months.

我相信，在接下来的几个月里，您会在这个故事中听到很多有关传票的信息。

A subpoena forces you to show up to a congressional hearing.

传票迫使您出席国会听证会。

A subpoena can also force you to answer questions, unless you plead the fifth, obviously.

显然，传票还可以迫使您回答问题，除非您对第五个问题进行辩护。

Back when the Democrats were in the minority, they didn't have the power to subpoena anybody.

当民主党占少数时，他们没有权力传唤任何人。

It killed them the last two years, not being able to force Trump officials to come in and answer for the stuff they were doing.

过去两年，这让他们丧命，因为无法迫使特朗普官员介入并为他们所做的事情负责。

Now they have subpoena power.

现在他们有传票权。

And they have two years of unanswered questions.

他们有两年的问题没有得到解答。

We have to reestablish proper oversight, not because we don't like this president-- though, I don't-- not because I think he's a terrible president-- though, I do-- not because I think we'll find all kinds of things-- though, we may-- but because it is our job to do that.

我们必须重新建立适当的监督，不是因为我们不喜欢这位总统——尽管，我不喜欢——不是因为我认为他是一位糟糕的总统——尽管，我喜欢——不是因为我认为我们会发现各种各样的事情——尽管，我们可能——而是因为这是我们的工作。

Whitaker is coming in voluntarily.

惠特克是自愿加入的。

Nadler doesn't need the subpoena for that anymore, but he does want to use it to combat this maddening thing that's been going on over the last two years the Democrats were powerless to stop.

纳德勒不再需要传票，但他确实想用它来对抗过去两年民主党无力阻止的令人疯狂的事情。

People from the Trump administration would come in and refuse to answer questions.

特朗普政府的人进来后拒绝回答问题。

And every administration does that, but there's been a twist on it.

每届政府都会这样做，但情况有所不同。

We saw it, for example, with the guy Whitaker replaced, Attorney General Sessions.

例如，我们看到惠特克被替换为司法部长塞申斯。

A year ago, he went before a congressional committee and showcased this innovative way of not answering a question.

一年前，他在国会委员会面前展示了这种不回答问题的创新方式。

Here's Sessions.

这是会议。

This is from a New York Times video montage.

这是来自《纽约时报》的视频蒙太奇。

Senator Heinrich, I'm not able to share with this committee private communications I may have--

海因里希参议员，我无法与该委员会分享我可能拥有的私人通讯——

Because you're invoking executive privilege.

因为你正在援引行政特权。

I'm not able to invoke executive privilege.

我无法调用行政特权。

That's the president's prerogative.

这是总统的特权。

Has the president invoked executive privilege in the case of your testimony here today?

在你今天在这里作证的情况下，总统是否援引了行政特权？

He has not.

他没有。

Senator Heinrich Then what is the basis of your refusal to answer these questions?

海因里希参议员：那么您拒绝回答这些问题的依据是什么？

I am protecting the right of the president to assert it if he chooses.

我正在保护总统在他选择的情况下主张这一权利的权利。

Sessions drove the Democrats crazy because he kept talking in terms of future executive privilege.

塞申斯让民主党人抓狂，因为他一直在谈论未来的行政特权。

The president might invoke it sometime, hypothetically, potentially, and I have to protect that.

总统可能会在某个时候，假设地，潜在地援引它，我必须保护这一点。

He kept claiming this even after he was given months to go to the president and ask, over which communications do you want to invoke executive privilege?

即使在他被允许几个月去见总统并询问你想通过哪些通讯来援引行政特权之后，他仍然坚持这一说法？

This potential executive privilege was like a back door Sessions kept slipping out of.

这种潜在的行政特权就像塞申斯不断溜出去的后门。

Nadler spent the last few months trying to nail that door shut.

纳德勒在过去的几个月里试图把这扇门钉上。

He sent a list of questions to Whitaker in advance.

他提前向惠特克发送了一份问题清单。

Are these subject to executive privilege?

这些是否受到行政特权的约束？

Go to the president, find that out, get back to us.

去找总统，找出答案，然后回复我们。

Anything the president doesn't claim is fair game for us to ask and get answers to.

总统没有声称的任何事情我们都可以提出并得到答案。

And if you don't answer those questions, we'll subpoena the answers out of you.

如果您不回答这些问题，我们将传唤您回答。

Weeks passed.

几周过去了。

Whitaker didn't get back to Nadler, who feels like, OK, if you try to stonewall, we'll subpoena your answers mid-hearing.

惠特克没有回复纳德勒，纳德勒感觉，好吧，如果你试图阻挠，我们会在听证会期间传唤你的答案。

But to get a subpoena for a hearing, first, Nadler is having a hearing about a subpoena.

但为了获得听证会传票，纳德勒首先要就传票举行听证会。

This is Congress, after all.

毕竟这是国会。

The Judiciary Committee will please come to order, a quorum being present without objection.

司法委员会将按法定人数出席且无异议的方式举行会议。

The chair has authorized to declare a recess at any time.

主席有权随时宣布休会。

Nadler is sitting in the chairman's seat with the gavel, opening a meeting about the subpoena.

纳德勒拿着木槌坐在主席座位上，开始召开有关传票的会议。

It's the day before the big Whittaker hearing.

这是惠特克大型听证会的前一天。

This meeting is focused on just the subpoena.

这次会议的重点只是传票。

It's called a markup, basically a debate among the committee members.

这被称为加价，基本上是委员会成员之间的辩论。

And it's teeny, tiny-- no audience, very few reporters.

而且它很小，很小——没有观众，也很少有记者。

Not even all the committee members are here.

甚至连委员会的所有成员都没有到齐。

I called C-Span and asked if they were recording it.

我打电话给 C-Span，询问他们是否正在录音。

They were like, what is that?

他们就像，那是什么？

I now call up the chair's resolution, authorizing the issuance of a subpoena to acting Attorney General Matthew G.

我现在援引主席决议，授权向代理司法部长马修·G·肯尼迪发出传票。

Whitaker to secure his appearance and testimony at the hearing of the committee regarding oversight of the US Department of Justice.

惠特克确保他在有关美国司法部监督的委员会听证会上出庭并作证。

I move that the committee adopt the resolution.

我提议委员会通过该决议。

So this hearing is about the subpoena, but it's also a way for Democrats to show off how transparent they're going to be as they run this committee.

因此，这次听证会是关于传票的，但这也是民主党人展示他们在管理该委员会时将如何透明的一种方式。

Back when Nadler was in the minority, it frustrated him that the Democrats wouldn't get a chance to weigh in on a subpoena like this.

当纳德勒处于少数派时，民主党没有机会对这样的传票发表意见，这让他感到沮丧。

There weren't committee votes, markups where Democrats got to go on the record and vote no when they didn't like what the Republicans were doing.

没有委员会投票，也没有加价，当民主党人不喜欢共和党的做法时，他们可以公开投票反对。

Today, Nadler and the Democrats could just go ahead and authorize a subpoena without this hearing, but they're letting the Republicans weigh in.

今天，纳德勒和民主党可以在没有这次听证会的情况下直接授权传票，但他们让共和党参与进来。

And they're feeling a little holier than thou about it.

他们对此感觉比你更神圣一点。

Also, Nadler genuinely believes in proper parliamentary procedure, not just the technicalities of it, but the idea of it, that it's a way to keep everyone honest.

此外，纳德勒真诚地相信适当的议会程序，不仅是其技术细节，而且是其理念，即这是让每个人保持诚实的一种方式。

The chairman begins by recognizing himself for an opening statement, because that's the procedure.

主席首先在开场发言中自我介绍，因为这就是程序。

Not a showboat.

不是一艘表演船。

Whatever's under-understated is how Nadler presents himself.

纳德勒展现自己的方式是低调的。

My staff and I can not have been more transparent about our goals here.

我和我的员工对于我们的目标非常透明。

We explained the possibility of this subpoena to Mr. Whitaker months ago.

几个月前，我们向惠特克先生解释了发出传票的可能性。

We provided him with the questions in advance weeks ago.

我们几周前就提前向他提供了问题。

We consulted with ranking member Collins and provided him with a copy of this subpoena days ago so that we could schedule this markup if necessary.

我们咨询了排名成员柯林斯，并在几天前向他提供了这份传票的副本，以便我们可以在必要时安排此加价。

In fact, we are only voting on this resolution because the ranking member asked us for an up or down vote on the matter, a courtesy we were not afforded in the last Congress when Democrats were in the minority.

事实上，我们只是对这项决议进行投票，因为排名靠前的成员要求我们对此事投赞成票或反对票，而在上届国会，当民主党占少数时，我们没有得到这种礼貌。

The hearing is filled with digs like that, back and forth.

听证会充满了这样的挖苦，来来回回。

Well, back when you guys didn't follow the rules, back when your president was the one being secretive.

好吧，当你们不遵守规则的时候，当你们的总统是保密的时候。

This is the way it's going to be for two years.

这将是两年的情况。

And these are the people who are going to be doing it.

这些就是将要做这件事的人。

This is the cast for the new season.

这是新一季的演员阵容。

Let's get to know them.

让我们来认识一下他们吧。

Ranking Republican Doug Collins from Georgia, charismatic talker, Air Force Reserve, Iraq vet.

来自佐治亚州的共和党人道格·柯林斯(Doug Collins)、魅力十足的演讲家、空军预备役军人、伊拉克退伍军人。

He steers things away from Whitaker immediately and does a classic, what about Obama and his attorney general, Eric Holder?

他立即把事情从惠特克身上转移开，做了一个经典的事情，那奥巴马和他的司法部长埃里克·霍尔德呢？

And isn't your subpoena here a double standard?

你的传票不是双重标准吗？

A subpoena should not be used to supplement where the committee is merely worried that a witness might not testify or might not answer questions to the extent of the committee's liking.

如果委员会仅仅担心证人可能不会作证或可能不会按照委员会的意愿回答问题，则不应使用传票来补充。

If that was the standard for a subpoena, many on our side, especially when Attorney General Holder sat at that table and offered, on the record, the executive privilege, which he could not claim.

如果这是传票的标准，那么很多人都站在我们这边，特别是当司法部长霍尔德坐在那张桌子上并公开提供他无法要求的行政特权时。

Let's be honest about this.

让我们老实说吧。

There's arguing back and forth about whether waving a subpoena around is too rude for someone coming in voluntarily, and what's the precedent.

关于挥舞传票对于自愿进来的人是否太粗鲁以及有什么先例的争论一直存在。

Here's Nadler sparring with Jim Jordan, Republican from Ohio, who loves a fight.

这是纳德勒与来自俄亥俄州、热爱打架的共和党人吉姆·乔丹（Jim Jordan）的争吵。

Big defender of the president.

总统的大捍卫者。

The issue is, if he refuses to answer legitimate questions.

问题是，他是否拒绝回答合理的问题。

That is why we want the subpoena.

这就是我们想要传票的原因。

How do you know that until he comes tomorrow?

他明天来之前你怎么知道呢？

And he said he's coming.

他说他会来。

Sir, I'm speaking.

先生，我正在说话。

We don't know that.

我们不知道这一点。

He hasn't told us what he will do.

他还没有告诉我们他会做什么。

We asked him.

我们问他。

He refuses to say--

他拒绝说——

Mr. Chairman, that's actually not accurate.

主席先生，这其实是不准确的。

He has told you what he's going to do.

他已经告诉你他要做什么了。

He said he's going to be sitting at that table tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

他说他明天早上 10 点将坐在那张桌子旁。

No, he hasn't told us about answering questions.

不，他没有告诉我们如何回答问题。

Finally, after arguing against the subpoena for a while, the Republicans changed tack and offered an amendment to it.

最后，在对传票进行了一段时间的争论后，共和党人改变了策略，提出了一项修正案。

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

谢谢主席先生。

I have an amendment at the desk.

我的办公桌上有一项修正案。

Beginning on page one, after "acting Attorney General Matthew G.

从第一页开始，在“代理司法部长 Matthew G.

Whitaker," and before "to secure his appearance," insert the following-- "and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein."

惠特克”，在“确保他出庭”之前插入以下内容——“以及司法部副部长罗德·罗森斯坦。”

Here we go.

开始了。

If you're getting a subpoena anyway, get one for Rod Rosenstein.

如果你无论如何都会收到传票，请为罗德·罗森斯坦（Rod Rosenstein）买一张传票。

Rod Rosenstein, deputy attorney general.

罗德·罗森斯坦，司法部副部长。

Lots of Republicans can't stand him and think he's out to get the president.

许多共和党人无法忍受他，认为他是为了竞选总统。

So their amendment is basically, you Democrats want the guy you don't trust at the Justice Department to testify.

所以他们的修正案基本上是，你们民主党人希望司法部里你们不信任的人出庭作证。

Well, then we want the guy we don't trust to come in at the same time.

好吧，那么我们希望我们不信任的人同时加入。

The argument that follows is so small sized, but they all throw in so hard, which is normal here.

接下来的争论虽然规模很小，但他们都投入了很大的精力，这在这里很正常。

Just stay with it for a second.

只需停留片刻即可。

The Democrats' response is led by David Cicilline from Rhode Island.

民主党的回应是由来自罗德岛州的戴维·西西林 (David Cicilline) 领导的。

I've come to think of him as Nadler's pinch hitter.

我开始认为他是纳德勒的替补击球手。

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

谢谢主席先生。

I would argue that this amendment goes beyond the scope of the resolution before us.

我认为这项修正案超出了我们面前的决议的范围。

The Democrats knew this amendment was coming.

民主党知道这项修正案即将到来。

Nadler's team already set up Cicilline with what he needs to knock it down.

纳德勒的团队已经为西西林配备了他需要的东西来击倒它。

His addition to this resolution is not germane.

他对这项决议的补充没有密切关系。

It expands the scope of this for the individual charged with the oversight of the Department of Justice.

它扩大了负责司法部监督的个人的范围。

And therefore, I ask that you rule it out of order.

因此，我请求你排除它的顺序。

"Germane" is a legal term.

“Germane”是一个法律术语。

And once it's released in here, it's like a swarm of bees.

一旦它被释放到这里，就像一群蜜蜂一样。

Republican member Biggs argues back.

共和党议员比格斯反驳道。

Because under the rules of any parliamentary body, this group determines what's germane.

因为根据任何议会机构的规则，这个群体决定什么是密切相关的。

This group determines what's germane.

这个群体决定什么是密切相关的。

We're going to vote on germane, this in just a second.

我们马上就要对相关问题进行投票。

Another Republican, Louie Gohmert from East Texas, he jumps in.

另一位来自德克萨斯州东部的共和党人路易·戈默特也加入了进来。

Like not only is Rod Rosenstein germane--

就像罗德·罗森斯坦不仅有密切关系——

It is extremely germane.

这是极其密切相关的。

Zoe Chace --can't be germaner.

Zoe Chace——简直不能再德国了。

It's as germane as it gets.

这是非常密切的。

So let's be fair.

所以让我们公平一点吧。

In any event, the Democrats have the votes to do what they want.

无论如何，民主党有足够的选票来做他们想做的事。

Nadler rules the amendment not germane.

纳德勒裁定该修正案没有密切关系。

The Republicans appeal.

共和党人提出上诉。

Democrats immediately table the appeal-- swat it down, in other words.

民主党人立即提出上诉——换句话说，驳回了上诉。

They finally vote on the resolution to authorize the actual subpoena.

他们最终投票通过了授权实际传票的决议。

And it is authorized, obviously, by a party line vote of Democrats.

显然，它是由民主党的党派路线投票授权的。

This entire show, the whole hour of debate, it was a fait accompli from the beginning.

整个表演，整个小时的辩论，从一开始就是既成事实。

But the minority got what the minority gets, a chance to object on the record.

但少数派得到了少数派得到的，即有机会公开反对。

It ain't much, but it's all there is.

虽然不多，但已经是全部了。

Everyone knows that.

每个人都知道这一点。

And yet, at the very end of the hearing, Republican Louie Gohmert, knowing the Democrats are feeling so very pleased with themselves for letting the minority speak, Gohmert gets in one last graciously worded dig at the majority.

然而，在听证会最后，共和党人路易·戈默特知道民主党对让少数派发言感到非常满意，戈默特对多数派进行了最后一次客气的挖苦。

He's like, you played your part a little sloppy.

他说，你扮演的角色有点马虎。

You didn't even make it look like you were listening to us.

你甚至没有表现出你在听我们说话的样子。

I rise to commend the chairman on the way in which he ruled on the germaneness issue of-- we know that to rule before giving this side a chance to respond on a germaneness objection would be a sign of partisan railroading.

我对主席就相关性问题做出裁决的方式表示赞扬——我们知道，在给这一方机会对相关性反对意见做出回应之前就做出裁决，将是党派围攻的标志。

And whoever it is that typed up your answer and had it instantaneously at the very moment we finished our argument in front of you so you could read it so fast we couldn't even see it-- they typed it, got it to you so you could read your ruling the moment we finished stating our position.

无论是谁打出你的答案，并在我们在你面前完成论点的那一刻立即得到它，这样你就可以快速阅读它，我们甚至看不到它——他们打印了它，把它交给你，这样你就可以在我们完成陈述我们的立场的那一刻读到你的裁决。

Will the gentleman-- Louie Gohmert I commend the--

这位先生——我赞扬路易·戈默特——

I thank the gentleman.

我感谢这位先生。

Zoe Chace Everyone laughed.

佐伊·切斯 大家都笑了。

They went on to consider a bipartisan bill, which they passed out of committee.

他们继续考虑一项两党法案，并在委员会中获得通过。

The Democrats felt great about how this markup went.

民主党人对这种加价的进展感到非常满意。

They authorized a subpoena, meaning now they had the power to use a subpoena on the day of the hearing to compel answers, if they want to, just to have it on hand, like in case of emergency, break glass, get answers.

他们授权了传票，这意味着现在他们有权在听证会当天使用传票来强迫答案，如果他们愿意的话，只需手头有传票，比如在紧急情况下，打破玻璃，得到答案。

We get backstage, as it were, back to the vast suite of the majority's offices behind the hearing room.

我们回到后台，就像回到听证室后面的多数人办公室一样。

And I find Aaron, who's full of his particular brand of patriotic bonhomie.

我找到了亚伦，他充满了他特有的爱国热情。

So who do you think won?

那么你认为谁赢了呢？

Aaron The American people, I'd say.

亚伦：我想说的是美国人民。

No. [LAUGHING] Aaron Many members had sort of a moment where they pulled me aside and said, oh, we're going to win a vote today, because it's been a while.

不。[笑]亚伦 许多成员都有过这样的时刻，他们把我拉到一边说，哦，我们今天将赢得投票，因为已经有一段时间了。

It's our first game time, like regular season, vote.

这是我们第一次比赛，就像常规赛一样，投票。

As the day ends and we head into Whitaker oversight hearing eve, everything seems set.

随着这一天的结束，我们进入惠特克监督听证会前夕，一切似乎都已尘埃落定。

Nadler staff is feeling ready, like they had a great dress rehearsal and the play is also going to be great.

纳德勒的工作人员感觉已经准备好了，就像他们进行了一次很棒的彩排一样，演出也会很棒。

The props are all in place.

道具都已就位。

Everyone knows their lines.

每个人都知道自己的台词。

Every box has been checked off.

每个方框都已被勾选。

I go downstairs to the Rayburn Cafeteria, stare at my phone, like everyone does.

我下楼来到雷伯恩自助餐厅，像每个人一样盯着手机。

Suddenly news breaks, and it's big.

突然传来消息，而且影响很大。

I look up from my phone to CNN, which is playing everywhere.

我从手机上抬起头，看到到处都在播放的 CNN。

The Whitaker hearing that is supposed to happen in just hours, the hearing the Democrats have been rehearsing for, planning for, might not happen now.

惠特克听证会原定在几个小时内举行，民主党人一直在排练和计划这次听证会，但现在可能不会举行。

Whitaker apparently heard about the vote they just took on the subpoena.

惠特克显然听说了他们刚刚对传票进行的投票。

And now he's saying he's not going to come tomorrow if there's a subpoena threat.

现在他说如果有传票威胁他明天就不会来。

In other words, this new tool the Democrats can wield, now that they're in the majority, the main tool they want to use to get the answers they've been waiting for, the DOJ is saying, go ahead and try it.

换句话说，既然民主党占多数，他们可以使用这个新工具，这是他们想要用来获得他们一直在等待的答案的主要工具，司法部说，继续尝试吧。

See what you get.

看看你会得到什么。

If Whitaker doesn't show up like he's threatening, a subpoena can force him to appear, but it would take a while.

如果惠特克没有像威胁一样出现，传票可以迫使他出现，但这需要一段时间。

I run back upstairs.

我跑回楼上。

People are gathered around the TV in the office, watching the breaking news.

人们聚集在办公室的电视机前，观看突发新闻。

Acting attorney general to discuss his communications with the president.

代理总检察长讨论他与总统的沟通。

So that's a [INAUDIBLE]---

所以这是一个[听不清]——

Nadler's staff is in Aaron's office with the door closed.

纳德勒的工作人员在亚伦的办公室里，门关着。

They're all on speakerphone with Nadler.

他们都在和纳德勒通话。

And I sit outside watching MSNBC for what feels like hours, but I think is like 45 minutes.

我坐在外面看 MSNBC 的时间感觉像是几个小时，但我想大概是 45 分钟。

Finally, they come get me.

最后，他们来接我了。

And Aaron and another staffer, Danny, show me what they've all been looking at.

亚伦和另一位工作人员丹尼向我展示了他们一直在关注的内容。

It's a five-page letter they just now received from the DOJ, telling them Whitaker won't come if there's a chance the Democrats will use their subpoena at the hearing tomorrow.

这是他们刚刚从司法部收到的一封五页长的信，告诉他们如果民主党有机会在明天的听证会上使用传票，惠特克就不会来。

To be clear, it's a PDF, but it sounds like it's from the 19th century.

需要明确的是，这是一个 PDF，但听起来像是 19 世纪的内容。

So the department says, "Given the concerns expressed above, we seek a written assurance from your office that the committee will not issue a subpoena to the acting attorney general on or before February 8." Oh, "We request the benefit of your reply by 6:00 PM today." So the threshold question is--

因此，该部门表示，“鉴于上述担忧，我们寻求贵办公室的书面保证，确保委员会不会在 2 月 8 日或之前向代理总检察长发出传票。”哦，“我们请求您在今天下午 6:00 之前回复。”所以门槛问题是——

So formal.

这么正式。

Aaron Yeah.

亚伦 是的。

The threshold question is, do we respond to this at all?

门槛问题是，我们对此做出回应吗？

This is a last minute threat.

这是最后一刻的威胁。

It's out of the box.

它开箱即用。

It's irregular.

这是不规则的。

Attempting to dictate terms from the executive branch to the legislative branch on how to conduct its oversight of the executive branch.

试图从行政部门向立法部门规定如何对行政部门进行监督的条款。

They're indignant and a little shaken, I'd say.

我想说，他们很愤怒，而且有点震惊。

They're like, wait, did we mess this up?

他们会说，等等，我们是不是把事情搞砸了？

Is Whitaker seriously not coming?

惠特克真的不来吗？

What do we do now?

我们现在做什么？

F this guy.

F这个家伙。

Zoe Chace They're legitimately freaked out because they really, really want Whitaker to come in.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）：他们确实感到害怕，因为他们真的非常希望惠特克加入。

Nadler's the new leader.

纳德勒是新的领导者。

All his members might be upset.

他的所有成员可能都会感到不安。

They stuck their necks out and supported his subpoena move, but they really want to have a hearing with the cabinet official, to be the first committee in the new Democrat-controlled House to show off a tough oversight agenda.

他们竭尽全力支持他的传票行动，但他们真的希望与内阁官员举行听证会，成为民主党控制的新众议院中第一个展示严格监督议程的委员会。

Aaron and Danny walk me through their various options for a response, from hard line to pushover.

亚伦和丹尼向我介绍了他们的各种应对方案，从强硬到屈服。

People are running around, researching ways to beef up their response to the letter.

人们四处奔波，研究加强对这封信的回应的方法。

Nadler's decision is, just reiterate what they said before as though it's not exactly what they said before.

纳德勒的决定是，只是重申他们之前说过的话，就好像这并不完全是他们之前所说的那样。

Basically, as Aaron puts it--

基本上，正如亚伦所说——

Dear Matthew Whitaker, if you show up on time prepared to answer our questions, there is no need for us to issue a subpoena.

亲爱的马修·惠特克（Matthew Whitaker），如果您准时出现并准备好回答我们的问题，我们就不需要发出传票。

Love, Jerry Nadler.

爱，杰里·纳德勒。

So then Aaron and another staffer call the DOJ.

然后亚伦和另一名工作人员给司法部打电话。

I'm not allowed to record.

我不被允许录音。

They start out by saying, I've got good news for you.

他们一开始就说，我有个好消息要告诉你。

And the news is not good.

消息并不好。

They say, well, the gist is, if he shows up on time and answers questions, we won't have to issue a subpoena.

他们说，好吧，要点是，如果他准时出现并回答问题，我们就不必发出传票。

It seems to somehow pass muster with whoever's on the other side.

它似乎以某种方式通过了另一边的人的考验。

And they talk about logistics, what elevator Whitaker is going to use, how he's going to get into the hearing room and stuff.

他们谈论后勤、惠特克将使用什么电梯、他将如何进入听证室等等。

The way they talk is like they're releasing a bull into a ring, how to keep everyone safe before we let this angry, frightened creature in front of 30 matadors.

他们说话的方式就像是在将一头公牛放入圈中，在我们让这个愤怒、害怕的生物出现在 30 名斗牛士面前之前，如何确保每个人的安全。

Things are calm for about a half an hour.

大约半个小时，事情平静了。

Then Aaron's cell phone rings on his watch, and he curses and runs out of the room.

然后亚伦手表上的手机响了，他咒骂着跑出了房间。

It's the DOJ.

这是司法部。

They want a stronger assurance.

他们想要更有力的保证。

They want a promise-- no subpoena tomorrow, or Whitaker won't come.

他们想要一个承诺——明天没有传票，否则惠特克就不会来。

It's 10 to 6:00.

现在是 10 点到 6:00。

6:00 is the deadline.

6:00 为截止时间。

This time, the team gathers deeper into their catacombs of offices.

这一次，团队更深入地下办公室。

I can't even hear them arguing, they're so cocooned away from me.

我什至听不到他们吵架，他们离我很远。

And when they come out, I can't get a straight answer out of Danny or Aaron.

当他们出来时，我无法从丹尼或亚伦那里得到直接答案。

He asked for a guarantee.

他要求保证。

You didn't give him a guarantee, or did you?

你没有给他保证吧？

We said that there's no need for a subpoena.

我们说过不需要传票。

But did you guarantee him that you wouldn't issue a subpoena?

但你向他保证你不会发出传票吗？

Yeah.

是的。

There's no need to issue a subpoena because he's agreed to come in tomorrow morning and answer the questions.

不需要发出传票，因为他同意明天早上来回答问题。

OK.

好的。

So what if he doesn't answer one of the questions, and you want him to answer it?

那么如果他没有回答其中一个问题而你希望他回答怎么办？

But isn't that when you would issue a subpoena?

但这不是你发出传票的时候吗？

If, in fact, we were going to issue a subpoena.

事实上，如果我们要发出传票。

Oh, my god.

我的天啊。

They're being so cagey, so parsey, I can't quite tell what's up.

他们是如此谨慎，如此麻木，我不太清楚发生了什么事。

Did they cave, and they don't want to admit it?

难道他们已经屈服了，而且不愿意承认吗？

Later that night, the ranking Republican on the Judiciary Committee, Doug Collins, gets on Twitter to reveal Nadler caved.

当天晚上晚些时候，司法委员会资深共和党人道格·柯林斯 (Doug Collins) 在推特上透露纳德勒屈服了。

Nadler's team protests that word, "caved," vehemently.

纳德勒的团队强烈反对“屈服”这个词。

The way they put it is, they decided getting Whitaker in the room was the most important thing.

他们的说法是，他们认为让惠特克进入房间是最重要的事情。

"Caved" is definitely the word Collins would use.

“洞穴”绝对是柯林斯会用的词。

And he posted a screenshot of a letter from Nadler to the DOJ, a letter that Nadler's team hadn't made public, a letter they also hadn't told me about.

他还发布了纳德勒写给司法部的一封信的屏幕截图，纳德勒的团队没有公开这封信，他们也没有告诉我这封信。

It promises the DOJ no subpoena tomorrow.

它承诺司法部明天不会发出传票。

Collins is all, got you, Nadler.

柯林斯就是全部，明白了，纳德勒。

"Looks like @repjerrynadler forgot to include his most recent letter to acting AG Whitaker, confirming there would be no subpoena tomorrow.

“看来@repjerrynadler 忘记附上他最近写给代理检察官惠特克的信，确认明天不会发出传票。

Here it is."

就是这里。”

Collins, as ranking Republican on the Judiciary Committee, should have been CC'd on this letter.

柯林斯作为司法委员会的资深共和党人，本应抄送这封信。

Nadler's team says they did.

纳德勒的团队说他们做到了。

Collins says they did not.

柯林斯说他们没有。

He got it elsewhere.

他在别处得到的。

So much for proper procedure.

正确的程序就这么多。

Congressional hearings can be confusing because there's so many different things at once.

国会听证会可能会令人困惑，因为同时有很多不同的事情。

They can be investigations to find out facts you didn't know.

它们可以通过调查来找出您不知道的事实。

They can trap people into making false statements on the record, also cable TV performances to raise representatives' national profile or send a message to their constituents.

它们可以诱使人们做出虚假陈述，也可以通过有线电视表演来提高代表的国家形象或向选民传达信息。

This hearing is going to be all those things.

这次听证会将讨论所有这些事情。

But also, the Democrats want to show the public what they think is going on, which in terms of Whitaker is, they think he's a hatchet man, that he was put in place to kill or screw up the Mueller investigation.

而且，民主党人希望向公众展示他们认为正在发生的事情，就惠特克而言，他们认为他是一个打手，他被派去杀死或搞砸穆勒的调查。

Nadler believes that's why Trump picked him.

纳德勒认为这就是特朗普选择他的原因。

And picking Whitaker was just one of any number of times he believes the president may have obstructed justice.

选择惠特克只是他认为总统可能妨碍司法公正的多次事件之一。

We have to lay out a story for the American people.

我们必须为美国人民讲述一个故事。

We have to find out what was going on and then lay that out to the American people.

我们必须查明发生了什么，然后将其告知美国人民。

And that's our job.

这就是我们的工作。

Also, separate from Whitaker's appointment, they're really mad about a whole bunch of Trump, DOJ-related matters.

此外，除了惠特克的任命之外，他们真的对特朗普和司法部相关的一大堆问题感到愤怒。

And they want to get answers about those too.

他们也想得到这些问题的答案。

So it's going to be a long day.

所以这将是漫长的一天。

Right before it starts, Aaron and Nadler review his script and his questions.

在开始之前，亚伦和纳德勒审查了他的剧本和问题。

And the central question that we should talk about right now is not actually the questions, but what happens when we're in the moment where he refuses to answer.

我们现在应该讨论的中心问题实际上不是问题，而是当我们处于他拒绝回答的时刻时会发生什么。

All right.

好的。

[INAUDIBLE] Aaron OK, let's talk through it.

[听不清] Aaron 好的，我们来谈谈吧。

I like the way you set up yes or no, Mr. Whitaker?

我喜欢你设置“是”或“否”的方式，惠特克先生？

Yes or no, Mr. Whitaker?

是还是不是，惠特克先生？

Hit him again and again with that.

就这样一次又一次地打击他。

About an hour later, the hearing's getting underway.

大约一个小时后，听证会开始。

We're in the room with the portraits looking down from the walls.

我们在一个房间里，墙上挂着肖像。

Whitaker shows up right on time.

惠特克准时出现。

Ranking Republican member Doug Collins speaks directly to him in his opening statement.

共和党资深议员道格·柯林斯在开场陈词中直接与他交谈。

Mr. Whitaker, this is your life.

惠特克先生，这就是你的生活。

Like the old TV show, they just want a piece of you.

就像老电视节目一样，他们只是想要你的一部分。

And with that, Mr. Chairman, pursuant calls for Rule 16.

主席先生，因此，根据第 16 条的要求。

I do now move to adjourn.

我现在宣布休会。

Nobody asked me, but I think we shouldn't be having this hearing.

没有人问过我，但我认为我们不应该举行这次听证会。

All in favor of the motion to adjourn, say aye.

所有人都赞成休会动议，同意。

Roll call.

点名。

Zoe Chace Everyone's vote on adjournment is painstakingly read out loud.

佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 每个人对休会的投票都经过精心宣读。

That's four minutes less hearing, classic minority party stalling tactic.

这比听证会少了四分钟，是典型的少数党拖延策略。

Also literally, Collins doesn't think we should be having this hearing.

从字面上看，柯林斯认为我们不应该举行这次听证会。

Whitaker opening statement, Nadler moves to questions.

惠特克开场发言，纳德勒开始提问。

Right off the bat, Nadler's tactic of yes or no, Mr. Whitaker, gets mixed results.

惠特克先生，纳德勒的“是”或“否”策略立即产生了好坏参半的结果。

Well, it's our understanding that at least one briefing occurred in December before your decision not to recuse yourself on December 19 and Christmas Day.

嗯，据我们了解，在您决定在 12 月 19 日和圣诞节那天不回避之前，12 月份至少举行了一次简报会。

Is that correct?

这是正确的吗？

What's the basis for that question, sir?

先生问这个问题的依据是什么？

Yes or no?

是还是不是？

Is it correct?

正确吗？

Matthew Whitaker I mean, I--

马修·惠特克 我的意思是，我——

It is our understanding that at least one briefing occurred between your decision not to recuse yourself on December 19 and six days later, Christmas Day.

据我们了解，从您 12 月 19 日决定不回避到六天后的圣诞节之间，至少发生了一次简报。

Is that correct?

这是正确的吗？

Simple enough question, yes or no?

问题很简单，是还是不是？

Mr. Chairman, again, what is the basis for your question?

主席先生，请问您提问的依据是什么？

You're saying that it is your--

你是说这是你的——

Sir, I'm asking the questions.

先生，我正在问问题。

I only have five minutes, so please answer, yes or no.

我只有五分钟的时间，所以请回答是或否。

No, Mr. Chairman.

不，主席先生。

I'm going to-- you were asking me a question, it is your understanding-- can you tell me where you get the basis?

我要——你问我一个问题，这是你的理解——你能告诉我你从哪里得到的基础吗？

No, I'm not going to tell you that.

不，我不会告诉你这个。

I'm don't have time to get into that.

我没有时间讨论这个。

I'm just asking you if that's correct or not.

我只是问你这是否正确。

Is it correct?

正确吗？

Were you briefed in that time period between December 19 and Christmas Day?

您是否收到过 12 月 19 日至圣诞节期间的情况通报？

Simple question, yes or no?

简单的问题，是还是不是？

Congressman, if every member here today asked questions based on their mere speculation--

国会议员，如果今天在座的每个议员都仅仅基于他们的猜测提出问题——

You don't have an an actual basis for your questions.

你的问题没有实际依据。

Whitaker plods slowly through every answer, taking time to pull his tiny glasses on and off his face and regularly declining to answer.

惠特克缓慢地回答每一个问题，花时间把脸上的小眼镜摘下来，并且经常拒绝回答。

Congressman, thank you for that question.

国会议员，谢谢你提出这个问题。

Congressman, I know this is an important issue to you.

国会议员，我知道这对您来说是一个重要问题。

And then even when he does answer, the answers are swaddled in weird, half non-answers.

然后，即使他确实回答了，答案也被包裹在奇怪的、半无答案中。

Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier today in my opening remarks, I do not intend today to talk about my private conversations with the President of the United States.

主席先生，正如我今天早些时候在开场白中所说，我今天不打算谈论我与美国总统的私人谈话。

But to answer your question, I have not talked to the President of the United States about the special counsel's investigation.

但要回答你的问题，我还没有与美国总统谈论特别检察官的调查问题。

So the answer is no, thank you.

所以答案是否定的，谢谢。

To any other White House official?

给任何其他白宫官员吗？

The effect of this is that it's really hard to tell what really went on while Whitaker was AG, which part matters, and importantly, who's being unreasonable-- Democrats for yelling yes or no at him, or Whittaker for being obstinate?

这样做的结果是，很难说惠特克担任总检察长期间到底发生了什么，哪一部分重要，更重要的是，谁在不讲道理——民主党人对他大喊“是”或“不是”，还是惠特克固执？

Does he know stuff and he's hiding it?

他是否知道一些事情并且隐瞒了？

Does he not know stuff, and they're berating him?

难道他不懂事，他们就骂他吗？

I truly cannot tell.

我实在说不出来。

The hearing protocol is Democrat gets five minutes, Republican gets five minutes.

听证会协议是民主党五分钟，共和党五分钟。

And it's whiplash every time they switch because they're trying to tell entirely different stories with their questions.

每次他们转换时都会感到很痛苦，因为他们试图用问题讲述完全不同的故事。

When it's ranking Republican Doug Collins' turn at bat, he brings up Roger Stone's recent arrest.

当轮到共和党人道格·柯林斯(Doug Collins)进行击球排名时，他提到了罗杰·斯通(Roger Stone)最近被捕的事情。

Are you familiar, from public boards or otherwise, that a CNN reporter was camped out outside of Stone's house when the FBI arrested him?

您是否熟悉公共董事会或其他方面的情况：当联邦调查局 (FBI) 逮捕斯通时，一名 CNN 记者就在斯通家外面扎营？

I am aware of that.

我知道这一点。

And it was deeply concerning to me as to how CNN found out about that.

CNN 是如何发现这一点的，这让我深感担忧。

Well, I'm glad we're going down that road, Mr. Attorney General, because this is a--

嗯，我很高兴我们走这条路，司法部长先生，因为这是——

Collins uses the rest of his time to reiterate his suspicions about goings on inside the FBI and Department of Justice.

柯林斯利用剩下的时间重申他对联邦调查局和司法部内部发生的事情的怀疑。

That's what a lot of the last two years of Republican-led hearings have been about.

这就是过去两年共和党主导的听证会的大部分内容。

They've been pushing a story that biased officials inside the FBI have been trying to take down the president ever since he took office.

他们一直在宣扬这样一个故事：自总统上任以来，联邦调查局内部有偏见的官员一直试图推翻总统。

And there's a bogus theory that says Stone's arrest is part of that.

有一种虚假的理论称斯通的被捕是其中的一部分。

They may believe all this.

他们可能相信这一切。

Nadler says it's a Republican strategy to discredit these investigations.

纳德勒表示，共和党的一项策略就是抹黑这些调查。

So when any reports do come out, half the country won't believe them.

因此，当任何报道出来时，半个国家都不会相信。

Whitaker is so adept at deflecting the Democrats' questions that the only time I feel like I really understand what the Democrats are getting at is when they perform these little monologues, reciting a list of facts that are already out there.

惠特克非常擅长转移民主党的问题，以至于我唯一一次觉得自己真正理解民主党的意思是当他们进行这些小独白，背诵一系列已经存在的事实时。

David Cicilline, Rhode Island, Nadler's pinch hitter, used some of his time to read a list like that to Whitaker.

来自罗德岛州的戴维·西西林（David Cicilline）是纳德勒的替补击球手，他利用一些时间向惠特克读了一份类似的名单。

You then went on to describe the Mueller appointment of a special counsel as ridiculous and a little fishy, that Mueller investigating Trump's finances would be going too far, that there is no criminal obstruction of justice charge to be had against President Trump, that there was no collusion with the Russians in the Trump campaign, that any candidate would have taken the same meaning as Donald Trump Jr. with the Russian lawyer, and finally that a replacement for Sessions could reduce Mueller's budget so low that his investigation grinds to almost a halt.

然后你接着说穆勒任命一名特别检察官是荒谬的，有点可疑，穆勒调查特朗普的财务会走得太远，特朗普总统不存在妨碍司法的刑事指控，特朗普竞选活动中不存在与俄罗斯人勾结，任何候选人都会对俄罗斯律师采取与小唐纳德·特朗普相同的含义，最后，塞申斯的替代者可能会将穆勒的预算削减得如此之低，以至于他的调查几乎陷入停顿。

You said all those things, and they're all in print.

这些话你都说了，都印在纸上了。

The American people wonder just how is it that Mr. Whitaker becomes the acting attorney general of the United States in violation of existing statutes.

美国民众好奇，惠特克先生为何违反现行法规，担任美国代理司法部长。

Was he put there for a particular purpose?

他被放在那里是有特殊目的吗？

That wasn't a question, it's a statement.

那不是一个问题，这是一个陈述。

I yield back--

我退让——

I've observed that.

我观察到了这一点。

The time of the gentleman has expired.

君子的时代已经过去了。

The speeches are helpful in understanding why they brought Whitaker here.

这些演讲有助于理解他们为什么把惠特克带到这里。

But when they ask questions, it gets muddled again.

但当他们提出问题时，事情又变得混乱了。

It seems as though there's a place they're trying to get to, but also like they might never get there.

似乎有一个地方是他们想要到达的地方，但又好像他们可能永远无法到达那里。

They'll do a series of questions that are endless, tiny variations on the same question that don't end in a conclusion.

他们会提出一系列无穷无尽的问题，同一个问题的微小变化不会得出结论。

Here's Democrat Ted Deutch trying to ask about every single way there could've been communication between Whitaker and the White House about the Mueller investigation.

民主党人特德·多伊奇试图询问惠特克和白宫之间就穆勒调查进行沟通的每一种方式。

Did you do anything to make sure that the White House might have learned some of what you learned in those briefings?

您是否采取了任何措施来确保白宫可能了解您在这些简报中了解到的一些内容？

Could it be that someone else on your staff might have spoken to someone at the White House, since you told us you didn't?

既然你告诉我们你没有，那么你的工作人员中的其他人是否可能已经与白宫的某个人交谈过？

Congressman, I'm not aware of that happening.

国会议员，我不知道发生了这种事。

Who else-- how many people were in those briefings with you when you're briefed about the Mueller investigation?

当你听取有关穆勒调查的简报时，还有谁——有多少人与你一起参加了这些简报会？

Congressman, I'm not going to go into specifics of the briefing, but it was a very limited group.

国会议员，我不打算详细介绍简报会的细节，但这是一个非常有限的群体。

There was only one member of my staff who was present with me.

只有一名我的工作人员和我一起在场。

Shortly after this back and forth with Congressman Deutch, there was a break.

在与国会议员多伊奇的来回交流后不久，双方出现了一次中断。

I marched backstage to Aaron's office.

我走到后台，来到亚伦的办公室。

He looked surprised to see me.

他看到我看起来很惊讶。

Hi.

你好。

Zoe Chace OK, do you guys have a card to play here with this like, "did you tell anybody" thing that Deutch was harping on?

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）：好的，你们有什么办法可以在这里打出多伊奇一直在说的“你告诉过任何人了吗”之类的话？

Yes.

是的。

I mean, it's not a card to play so much as we have reason to believe that his testimony is not accurate, based on information both publicly reported and delivered to us by people who work in and around the Department of Justice.

我的意思是，这不是一张可以打的牌，因为根据司法部及其周围工作人员公开报道和向我们提供的信息，我们有理由相信他的证词不准确。

So it seems like they know something, and they're trying to catch him making a false statement.

所以看起来他们知道一些事情，并且他们正在试图抓住他的虚假陈述。

That shoe never drops the whole six hours.

那只鞋在整个六个小时内从未掉落。

There is no gotcha moment-- we know what you did last summer, Mr. Whitaker.

没有什么陷阱——我们知道你去年夏天做了什么，惠特克先生。

Instead, the dramatic moment that ends up on the news after the Whitaker hearing has nothing to do with the questions Nadler was asking.

相反，惠特克听证会后新闻中出现的戏剧性时刻与纳德勒提出的问题无关。

It was this.

就是这个。

Have you ever been asked to approve any request or action to be taken by the special counsel?

您是否曾被要求批准特别检察官的任何请求或采取的行动？

Mr. Chairman, I see that your five minutes is up.

主席先生，我看到您的五分钟时间到了。

And so--

所以——

This indecorous response that scandalized the room-- if you heard about the hearing, that's probably all you heard.

这种不礼貌的反应引起了全场的愤慨——如果你听说了听证会，你可能只听到了这些。

Jerry Nadler responded how Jerry Nadler would, laughed it off and moved on.

杰里·纳德勒按照杰里·纳德勒的方式回应，一笑置之，然后继续前进。

In the coming months, we're going to get to know the different styles of these House committee chairs-- Nadler in judiciary, Adam Schiff in the Intelligence Committee, Elijah Cummings in oversight.

在接下来的几个月里，我们将了解这些众议院委员会主席的不同风格——司法委员会主席纳德勒、情报委员会主席亚当希夫、监督委员会主席伊利亚卡明斯。

He ran the Michael Cohen hearing.

他主持了迈克尔·科恩听证会。

Cummings is a master of ceremonies-type preacher almost.

卡明斯几乎是一位司仪式的传教士。

He knows how to reach an audience and hold it.

他知道如何吸引观众并留住观众。

Nadler, in his hearing with Whitaker, was dealt a very different witness.

纳德勒在与惠特克的听证会上遇到了一位截然不同的证人。

But also, he's a very different chairman.

但同时，他也是一位非常不同的主席。

After spending weeks watching him gear up for and then run this hearing, I think it's fair to say he's not so into the theater part of the hearing.

在花了数周的时间观察他为听证会做准备和进行之后，我认为可以公平地说，他不太喜欢听证会的剧院部分。

He's got a law library in his head.

他脑子里有一座法律图书馆。

He's practical.

他很实际。

He's unflappable.

他镇定自若。

He's trying to get to the bottom of something here.

他正试图弄清这件事的真相。

He's not so focused on the audience experience of it, their takeaway.

他不太关注观众的体验和收获。

Here's the truth.

这是事实。

I didn't understand-- I didn't know what I was supposed to get at the end of that hearing.

我不明白——我不知道听证会结束时我应该得到什么。

I didn't know what I was supposed to think, as an American who's been waiting.

作为一个一直在等待的美国人，我不知道自己应该怎么想。

Well, we weren't doing the hearing in order to get people to think something.

嗯，我们举行听证会并不是为了让人们思考一些事情。

OK.

好的。

Jerry Nadler That may be true of future hearings.

杰里·纳德勒（Jerry Nadler）未来的听证会可能也是如此。

The function of this hearing was to assure ourselves, and by extension the American people, to determine whether the Mueller investigation was being hamstrung or going on.

这次听证会的作用是让我们自己以及美国人民确信穆勒的调查是否受到阻碍或仍在继续。

That was the purpose.

这就是目的。

OK.

好的。

So by that measure, how did Nadler and his committee do?

那么按照这个标准，纳德勒和他的委员会表现如何呢？

They got six hours of statements on the record that people are now poring over.

他们记录了六个小时的声明，人们现在正在仔细研究。

The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal both published stories saying, according to their reporting, Whitaker lied during his testimony.

《纽约时报》和《华尔街日报》都发表了报道，称惠特克在作证时撒了谎。

Whitaker's now agreed to come back to the Judiciary Committee to, quote, "clarify his testimony." So that record will continue to grow.

惠特克现在同意回到司法委员会“澄清他的证词”。因此，这一记录还将继续增长。

Building a record matters.

创造记录很重要。

Getting clear answers from the administration about the last two years matters.

从政府那里得到有关过去两年问题的明确答案。

But at some point, the overall story and the audience's understanding of what Congress is doing here could become the biggest thing.

但在某种程度上，整个故事和观众对国会在这里所做的事情的理解可能会成为最重要的事情。

When it was clear a few months ago that Nadler was going to be chair of judiciary, right after the midterms, he was asked about impeachment hearings a lot.

几个月前，就在中期选举之后，纳德勒明确将担任司法主席时，他被多次问到有关弹劾听证会的问题。

They could tear the country apart, he said.

他说，他们可能会撕裂这个国家。

That's because impeachment depends on the court of public opinion.

那是因为弹劾取决于舆论法庭。

Do enough people see the same events in the same way?

是否有足够多的人以相同的方式看待相同的事件？

Can you imagine?

你能想象吗？

We are a really long way from that.

我们离这个目标还有很长的路要走。

Zoe Chace, who's one of the producers of our show.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace），我们节目的制片人之一。

Coming up, something seriously you do not expect when you're expecting.

即将到来，一些你在期待时没想到的严肃的事情。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, scrambling to get off the ice.

今天的节目，争先恐后地离开冰场。

We have stories of people in difficult situations who are trying to move.

我们有一些处于困境中的人试图搬家的故事。

They're trying to fix things.

他们正在努力解决问题。

And for a while, anyway, they are running in place, just attempting one tactic after another, hoping something is going to work.

无论如何，有一段时间，他们都在原地奔跑，只是尝试一种又一种策略，希望能有所成效。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, Going Under.

第二幕，走向终结。

So this next story is about somebody who had a lot of options for fixing the problem that she faced.

所以下一个故事是关于一个有很多选择来解决她所面临的问题的人。

And I don't think it's an exaggeration to say she tried them all.

我认为说她尝试了所有这些都不夸张。

Her name is Jessica Hopper.

她的名字叫杰西卡·霍珀。

She's a music journalist who used to help us here with the music on our show.

她是一位音乐记者，曾经帮助我们制作节目的音乐。

And the story is about her and a doctor, and sexual misconduct.

这个故事是关于她和一名医生以及不当性行为的。

In other words, content that might not be right for everybody.

换句话说，内容可能并不适合所有人。

And before we start, I will point out that the doctor in the story denies any wrongdoing and has steadfastly denied it from the start.

在我们开始之前，我要指出的是，故事中的医生否认有任何不当行为，并且从一开始就坚决否认。

In fact, when this got before a judge, the judge ruled that there was not enough proof to meet the standard necessary to establish misconduct on the doctor's part, though he said he found Jessica's testimony to be, quote, "emotional and believable." He found her credible.

事实上，当这件事提交给法官时，法官裁定没有足够的证据来满足确定医生不当行为所需的标准，尽管他说他发现杰西卡的证词“情绪化且可信”。他发现她是可信的。

Here's Jessica.

这是杰西卡。

On March 1, 2012, I was in the hospital delivering my son.

2012年3月1日，我在医院接生儿子。

And an anesthesiologist repeatedly groped me while administering my epidural.

一名麻醉师在给我进行硬膜外麻醉时反复摸索我。

I've told the story of what he did to me again and again, dozens of times over the last seven years to the hospital, the police, the detectives, my attorney, the state medical licensing investigator, my victim advocate, a judge, a reporter, another detective, and eventually people close to me.

在过去的七年里，我一次又一次地向医院、警察、侦探、我的律师、州医疗执照调查员、我的受害者辩护人、法官、记者、另一名侦探，以及最终与我关系密切的人讲述了他对我所做的事情数十次。

The story's only become more precise in order to preempt the questions I know will come.

这个故事只会变得更加精确，以便抢占我知道将会出现的问题。

I can speak it all in an unbroken monologue.

我可以用不间断的独白说出这一切。

I start with how this was my second son, why we chose this neighborhood hospital.

我从这是我的第二个儿子开始，为什么我们选择这家附近的医院。

I offer my state of mind as my husband drove me there, how alert and aware I was.

当我丈夫开车送我去那里时，我讲述了我的精神状态，我是多么警觉和清醒。

I recount how the anesthesiologist asked my husband and my doula to leave the room, how he had me take my gown down over my pregnant belly, how his process was methodical, but entirely different than the epidural I got with my first son.

我讲述了麻醉师如何要求我的丈夫和我的导乐离开房间，他如何让我把礼服脱下来遮住怀孕的肚子，他的过程如何有条不紊，但与我对第一个儿子进行的硬膜外麻醉完全不同。

I trace on my body how the doctor ran an injection line, a thin plastic tube, from a spot on my back and inexplicably taped it right between my breasts.

我在我的身体上描绘了医生如何从我背上的一个地方插入一根注射线，一根细塑料管，然后莫名其妙地将它粘在我的乳房之间。

I pinpoint that moment as when I know something was off, how I read his name tag and took note of his name, where he stood, where the light was in the room, approximately what time of day.

我精确地指出那一刻，当我知道有些事情不对劲时，我如何阅读他的名牌并记下他的名字，他站在哪里，房间里的灯在哪里，大约在一天中的什么时间。

I detail how he put his hands on my breasts, cupped and held them.

我详细描述了他如何把手放在我的乳房上，托起它们。

I describe the touch as sexual and not clinical.

我将这种触摸描述为性接触，而不是临床性的。

I describe how he was silent when I asked, what are you doing?

我描述了当我问“你在做什么？”时他是如何保持沉默的。

And how he did it again.

以及他是如何再次做到这一点的。

It did not stop until I said, what the [BLEEP] are you doing?

直到我说，[BLEEP]你在做什么？它才停止。

I explain how he did not look at me and just left the room, how I told my husband immediately after he came back in the room.

我解释说他没有看我，就离开了房间，我是如何在他回到房间后立即告诉他的。

About an hour and a half later, within a minute or two of delivering my son, I told the entire room what the doctor had done to me.

大约一个半小时后，在我儿子出生后一两分钟内，我告诉整个房间里医生对我做了什么。

But how I told them came out sarcastic and nervous, almost like a joke, saying that I was so happy to have an epidural that I almost didn't mind that the doctor had felt me up.

但我告诉他们的内容却充满了讽刺和紧张，几乎就像一个笑话，我说我很高兴接受硬膜外麻醉，以至于我几乎不介意医生对我进行摸身。

I knew they heard me because the neonatal nurses weighing my son froze, and one locked eyes with me.

我知道他们听到了我的声音，因为给我儿子称重的新生儿护士愣住了，其中一位护士盯着我看。

My midwife told me, don't say that.

我的助产士告诉我，不要这么说。

That didn't happen.

那没有发生。

Don't say that.

别这么说。

This is the part in the story where my monologue changes.

这是故事中我的独白发生变化的部分。

It becomes a litany of who I told and how, how I set a reminder alarm on my phone.

它变成了我告诉谁、如何告诉、如何在手机上设置提醒闹钟的一长串内容。

And at least once a week during my children's nap time, I would call the hospital to try to tell someone what happened, to try to navigate to the right voicemail, the hospital administrators, HR, the receptionist, the patient advocate.

每周至少一次，在孩子们午睡的时候，我会打电话给医院，试图告诉某人发生了什么事，尝试导航到正确的语音信箱、医院管理人员、人力资源部、接待员、患者辩护人。

I called for weeks until someone took down my account.

我打了好几个星期的电话，直到有人注销了我的帐户。

I soon got a letter from the hospital, telling me that they'd looked into it and that my account was unsubstantiated.

很快我就收到了医院的一封信，告诉我他们已经对此进行了调查，而且我的说法未经证实。

I filed a complaint online with the state medical licensing board.

我在网上向州医疗许可委员会提出投诉。

I just wanted to stop this from happening to anyone else.

我只是想阻止这种事发生在其他人身上。

I filed a police report.

我已向警方报案。

A few weeks later, I did several long interviews with a nice detective.

几周后，我对一位好侦探进行了几次长时间的采访。

His concern and care felt meaningful after months of being told that no one believed me.

在被告知没有人相信我的几个月后，他的关心和照顾感觉很有意义。

A few weeks later, a new detective was assigned to my case.

几周后，一名新侦探被指派负责我的案件。

And I started over, retelling the story several times over the course of a year.

然后我重新开始，在一年的时间里多次重述这个故事。

The new detective would periodically update me with progress on my case.

新来的侦探会定期向我通报案件的进展情况。

They were dramatic stories, made him and the other cop sound like cowboys.

这些都是戏剧性的故事，让他和另一名警察听起来像牛仔。

He told me they had gone to the hospital to interview the doctor, and they'd been blocked by hospital staff.

他告诉我他们去医院采访医生，被医院工作人员拦住了。

He told me when they went back with a warrant, the doctor had fled the country.

他告诉我，当他们带着搜查令回来时，医生已经逃离了这个国家。

He told me that they put out an international APB on him and had tracked him.

他告诉我，他们对他发出了国际 APB 并追踪了他。

He told me that they had gone to the doctor's suburban mansion and arrested him at dawn on Christmas morning, and now the doctor was scared.

他告诉我，他们在圣诞节早上黎明就去了医生的郊区豪宅并逮捕了他，现在医生很害怕。

I had started to doubt what the detective was telling me.

我开始怀疑侦探告诉我的话。

A few months later, the detective had me meet him in person at the shopping center by the county courthouse.

几个月后，侦探让我在县法院大楼旁的购物中心与他见面。

He sat me down at a glass table across from a Sephora and told me that the state's attorney was declining to take the case or even bring charges because he said, she said cases were impossible to prosecute.

他让我坐在丝芙兰对面的一张玻璃桌旁，告诉我州检察官拒绝受理此案，甚至拒绝提出指控，因为他说，她说案件不可能起诉。

He urged me to give up on the case and go on with my life.

他劝我放弃这个案子，继续我的生活。

He said that the doctor was probably scared enough that he had stopped.

他说医生可能是太害怕了，所以才停下来。

Sitting there in the mall with the detective after 18 months of wild stories and no charges, I had the sinking feeling that this was a performance of some sort-- telling me that justice had been exhausted and hoping I would believe it so he could close up my case file and call it a day.

在经历了 18 个月的疯狂故事且没有受到任何指控后，我和侦探坐在商场里，我有一种沉重的感觉，这是某种表演——告诉我正义已经用尽，并希望我会相信这一点，这样他就可以关闭我的案卷并到此为止。

I realized I needed to switch tactics.

我意识到我需要改变策略。

I left the meeting and called a lawyer friend who referred me to an attorney who was willing to help me bring a civil case pro bono.

我离开会议，给一位律师朋友打电话，他推荐我去找一位愿意帮助我无偿提起民事案件的律师。

After a few months, this lawyer laid out some options for me, but then he followed that with exactly what the detective had said.

几个月后，这位律师为我提出了一些选择，但随后他就按照侦探所说的去做了。

It was my word against the doctor.

这是我反对医生的话。

And with cases like this, good outcomes were rare, that he had seen victims come out the other side destroyed.

而像这样的案件，很少有好的结果，他看到受害者出来时，另一边却被毁了。

I knew that was true, and I trusted what he was telling me.

我知道那是真的，我相信他告诉我的话。

I felt like unless I had video of this happening, I wouldn't be believed.

我觉得除非我有这件事发生的视频，否则我不会被相信。

But I wanted the doctor to face consequences.

但我希望医生承担后果。

What the doctor had done had filled me with fear and anxiety.

医生的所作所为让我充满了恐惧和焦虑。

I was anxious about being touched.

我很担心被碰触。

As a result, I hadn't seen a doctor or dentist in years since delivering my son.

因此，自从生下儿子后，我已经好几年没有看过医生或牙医了。

What this doctor did in this setting that's supposed to be safe, where I was at my most vulnerable, in labor-- after that, how could I trust anyone?

这位医生在这个本应安全的环境中做了什么，在我最脆弱的时候，在临产时——在那之后，我怎么能相信任何人呢？

I didn't feel safe.

我感觉不安全。

I had nightmares.

我做了噩梦。

And I felt shame, not for what the doctor had done, but that maybe I could have done something differently, so others would have taken this more seriously.

我感到羞愧，不是因为医生做了什么，而是因为也许我可以做一些不同的事情，这样其他人就会更认真地对待这件事。

My attorney said he would pursue the case if I wanted, but he suggested I move on and focus on the good things in my life, my family, my career.

我的律师说，如果我愿意，他会追究这个案子，但他建议我继续前进，专注于我的生活、我的家庭和我的职业生涯中美好的事情。

He assured me that if anyone else ever came forward, that my civil complaint would be there to bolster their account.

他向我保证，如果有其他人挺身而出，我的民事申诉将会支持他们的说法。

On Valentine's Day 2015, feeling deeply discouraged, I told my lawyer to drop my case.

2015年情人节，我感到非常沮丧，告诉我的律师放弃我的案子。

I didn't talk about it or tell friends or family because I just wanted this all to go away.

我没有谈论这件事，也没有告诉朋友或家人，因为我只是想让这一切消失。

I tried to forget, but I couldn't.

我试图忘记，但我做不到。

In December 2017, I was at home and folding laundry when I got a call from an investigator with the state licensing board.

2017 年 12 月，我正在家里叠衣服，接到州许可委员会调查员的电话。

She said she was new to the position and was just following up on her predecessor's open cases, and would I be willing to talk to her?

她说她是这个职位的新人，只是在跟进她前任的未结案件，我愿意和她谈谈吗？

It'd been five years.

已经五年了。

I was ambivalent and cynical.

我很矛盾，也很愤世嫉俗。

She asked me to sign a release so she could get my medical records.

她要求我签署一份授权书，以便她可以获得我的医疗记录。

I didn't bother.

我没有打扰。

I felt like there was no use in going through this again, and it was painful to pretend otherwise.

我觉得再经历一遍是没有用的，假装不这样做很痛苦。

She called again a few weeks later and asked me if I would tell her my story.

几周后她再次打电话问我是否愿意告诉她我的故事。

Over the course of an hour, I did, but I was certain there was no use telling the story again.

在一个小时的时间里，我做到了，但我确信再讲这个故事是没有用的。

I no longer believed anyone could help me or stop him.

我不再相信有人可以帮助我或阻止他。

In February 2018, the investigator called me and told me that there was a development in my case.

2018年2月，调查员打电话告诉我，我的案子有了进展。

Another victim had come forward with an almost identical claim.

另一位受害者也提出了几乎相同的主张。

A prosecutor she worked with said if I signed consent forms to release my medical records, they could file an emergency suspension of the doctor's license that would stop him from practicing.

与她共事的一名检察官说，如果我签署同意书公开我的医疗记录，他们可以紧急吊销医生执照，阻止他执业。

I said yes.

我说是的。

He asked me if I would be willing to testify against the doctor.

他问我是否愿意出庭作证指控医生。

I said yes.

我说是的。

Finally, I was being believed because there were two of us.

最后，我被相信了，因为我们有两个人。

I got off the phone and involuntary screamed over and over before collapsing on the floor, sobbing.

我挂断电话，不由自主地尖叫了一遍又一遍，然后倒在地板上抽泣起来。

I was furious there were now two of us.

我很生气现在我们两个人了。

I was elated there were now two of us.

我很高兴现在有我们两个人了。

We were not in this alone.

我们并不孤单。

What I'd learned about the woman who'd come forward was that she was undocumented, a single mom.

我从这位挺身而出的女士身上了解到，她是一名无证件的单身母亲。

She did not speak much English, and she was testifying.

她不太会说英语，但她正在作证。

I felt overcome with love and gratitude for her, this brave woman I didn't know, this woman who is taking a risk coming forward.

我对她充满了爱和感激，这个我不认识的勇敢的女人，这个冒着风险挺身而出的女人。

The state medical licensing board was moving for the suspension of the doctor's license.

州医疗执照委员会正在采取行动吊销该医生执照。

I met with two prosecutors to prepare to testify.

我会见了两名检察官准备作证。

They only had a few days.

他们只有几天的时间。

During this, I found out that the detectives initially assigned to my case, including the detective who had told me he'd arrested the doctor, the detective who had met me at the mall, he had never made any notes during the nearly two years he'd been on my case, not once in all the times he had interviewed me.

在这期间，我发现最初分配给我的案件的侦探，包括告诉我他逮捕了医生的侦探，在商场遇见我的侦探，在他接手我的案件的近两年时间里从未做过任何记录，在他采访我的所有时间里一次也没有。

He never interviewed or arrested the doctor.

他从未采访或逮捕过医生。

He never brought my case to the state's attorney.

他从未将我的案子提交给州检察官。

He just sat on it.

他只是坐在上面。

I found out that my initial complaint to the licensing board had been dismissed without investigation because I had misspelled the doctor's last name.

我发现我最初向许可委员会提出的投诉未经调查就被驳回，因为我拼错了医生的姓氏。

The first time the state regulators became aware of my case was in the summer of 2015, after I had dropped it.

州监管机构第一次意识到我的案件是在 2015 年夏天，当时我已经放弃了该案件。

Everything I had done, all the so-called right steps to pursue, had amounted to nothing.

我所做的一切，所有所谓的正确步骤，都毫无意义。

The cogs had never caught.

齿轮从未卡住。

The licensing board prosecutors apologized profusely, continually.

许可委员会检察官不断地道歉。

They said they could have tried to prosecute the doctor years ago.

他们说，他们本可以在几年前尝试起诉这名医生。

The hearing happened last June.

听证会于去年六月举行。

The doctor testified he was not guilty and brought a naked mannequin to the hearing room for purposes of demonstration.

医生证明自己无罪，并带了一个裸体人体模型到听证室进行演示。

The midwife testified too, admitted to saying in the delivery room, don't say that, though she denied ever saying to me, that didn't happen.

助产士也作证，承认在产房里说，不要这么说，尽管她否认曾对我说过，那没有发生。

The other women, the one who came forward, she testified all morning.

其他女性，即挺身而出的女性，她整个上午都作证。

And I testified after her.

我在她身后作证。

We did not meet.

我们没有见面。

I had to ID the doctor who victimized me.

我必须查明伤害我的医生的身份。

He was sitting behind me.

他坐在我后面。

I couldn't miss him.

我不能错过他。

The doctor's defense attorneys tried to suggest this was all a ploy cooked up by my husband, that I had claimed being assaulted in order to try to get a settlement from the hospital.

医生的辩护律师试图暗示这都是我丈夫炮制的阴谋，我声称自己受到了殴打，以便试图从医院获得和解。

The doctor's defense attorney asked me why, if this was so devastating, why hadn't I told people?

医生的辩护律师问我，如果这件事如此具有破坏性，我为什么不告诉别人呢？

Why hadn't I gotten help?

为什么我没有得到帮助？

I tried to explain that I just wanted this to go away.

我试图解释说我只是想让这件事消失。

What I didn't understand well enough to explain at the time was that I didn't want to deal with anyone's reactions.

当时我不太明白，无法解释的是我不想处理任何人的反应。

I didn't want to wonder if another person believed me.

我不想怀疑另一个人是否相信我。

I didn't want anyone to feel sorry for me.

我不想让任何人为我感到难过。

They asked me about timelines.

他们问我有关时间表的问题。

They tried to trip me up.

他们试图绊倒我。

It didn't work.

它不起作用。

The prosecutors told me I'd done well.

检察官告诉我，我做得很好。

I left the hearing exhausted, but I felt so light.

听证会结束时，我精疲力竭，但感觉很轻松。

I felt like I was going to float away.

我感觉自己快要飘走了。

I felt like there was nothing I couldn't do.

我感觉没有什么是我做不到的。

I felt like Wonder Woman, like when she lifts a car with a single hand.

我感觉自己就像神奇女侠，就像她单手举起汽车一样。

I thought about the other woman.

我想到了另一个女人。

I wondered how she felt.

我想知道她的感受如何。

I wondered if she felt the same.

我想知道她是否也有同样的感觉。

Jessica Hopper.

杰西卡·霍珀。

The doctor in her story, his medical license was suspended with an indefinite suspension for a minimum of three years.

她故事中的医生，他的行医执照被无限期吊销至少三年。

And he was fined $15,000 for what he did to the other woman.

他因对另一名女子的所作所为而被罚款 15,000 美元。

He was not disciplined for anything relating to Jessica because there wasn't enough proof for her claims.

他没有因与杰西卡有关的任何事情受到纪律处分，因为没有足够的证据支持她的说法。

We approached him for comment, and his lawyer sent us a one-sentence statement denying any wrongdoing and pointing out that the doctor is in the process of appealing his suspension.

我们联系他征求意见，他的律师给我们发了一份简短的声明，否认有任何不当行为，并指出该医生正在对他的停职提出上诉。

We also reached out to the detective who Jessica says met with her at the mall and the head of investigations above him.

我们还联系了杰西卡说在商场与她会面的侦探以及他上面的调查负责人。

Neither responded.

两人都没有回应。

Our program was produced today by Robin Semien.

我们今天的节目由罗宾·塞米恩制作。

The people who put our show together today includes Elna Baker, Zoe Chace, Aviva DeKornfeld, Neil Drumming, Hilary Elkins, Jarrett Floyd, Damien Graef, Seth Lind, Stowe Nelson, Catherine Raimondo, Ben Phelan, Nadia Reiman, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.

今天的节目制作人包括 Elna Baker、Zoe Chace、Aviva DeKornfeld、Neil Drumming、Hilary Elkins、Jarrett Floyd、Damien Graef、Seth Lind、Stowe Nelson、Catherine Raimondo、Ben Phelan、Nadia Reiman、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。

Our managing editor is David Kestenbaum.

我们的总编辑是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

Special thanks today to Jessica Andrews, John Bies at American Oversight, Kate Brannan, Barrie Hardymon, Steve Licktieg, Kelefa Sanneh, Ben Terris, Andy Wright, and Mark Rozell.

今天特别感谢 Jessica Andrews、American Oversight 的 John Bies、Kate Brannan、Barrie Hardymon、Steve Licktieg、Kelefa Sanneh、Ben Terris、Andy Wright 和 Mark Rozell。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 600 多集档案。

Or download our shows, using This American Life app.

或者使用 This American Life 应用程序下载我们的节目。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he and his friends have always had suspicions about how I got to host this show.

你知道，他和他的朋友们一直对我如何主持这个节目抱有怀疑。

We all suspect he was put there for one reason and one reason only, to interfere with the Mueller investigation.

我们都怀疑他被放在那里的原因只有一个，那就是干扰穆勒的调查。

I will neither confirm nor deny.

我不会证实，也不会否认。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。