665: Before Things Went to Hell - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #665 | January 11, 2019 665: Before Things Went to Hell Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 665 集 | 2019 年 1 月 11 日 665：在事情陷入地狱之前 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass At one level, my Grandma Frieda's college records are utterly ordinary-- don't tell much of a story.
序言：序言 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在某种程度上，我奶奶弗里达的大学记录非常普通——没有讲述太多故事。
She's a good student, and teachers say the nice things that they say about bright students.
她是个好学生，老师们都对聪明的学生赞不绝口。
They talk about her sense of social responsibility.
他们谈论她的社会责任感。
They talk about her, quote, excellent and well-trained mind.
他们谈论她，引用她优秀且训练有素的头脑。
This is 1931, that they would say such a thing.
这是1931年，他们会说出这样的话。
Goucher College, then an all girls' school in Baltimore.
古彻学院，当时是巴尔的摩的一所女子学校。
I got these records a few years back when I was invited to give a commencement address at Goucher.
几年前，当我受邀在古彻大学发表毕业典礼演讲时，我得到了这些记录。
I asked if I could get a copy of her school records.
我问我是否可以获得她学校记录的副本。
And there's such a different picture of this person I knew.
我认识的这个人的形象完全不同。
It's my grandma as a college kid.
这是我大学时的奶奶。
Grandma Frieda was training to be a teacher, and her evaluations say that she has a lot of promise.
弗里达奶奶正在接受教师培训，她的评价说她很有前途。
Quote, "She did her practice teaching with great success, making unusually varied, interesting, and well organized lesson plans, presenting her material with force and vigor, showing great accuracy in all details." I like that one.
引用：“她的实践教学取得了巨大成功，制定了异常多样、有趣且组织良好的课程计划，以有力和活力呈现她的材料，在所有细节上都表现出极大的准确性。”我喜欢那个。
"She has a forceful as well as a very pleasant personality," which I can say is true.
“她的性格既坚强又令人愉快”，我可以说这是真的。
She is very smart, always let you know what she thought.
她很聪明，总是让你知道她的想法。
There's four of these evaluations.
这些评价有四个。
They list her traits.
他们列出了她的特征。
There's like a checklist with some energy, reliability, perseverance, resourcefulness.
这就像一个清单，其中包含一些精力、可靠性、毅力和足智多谋。
She's 21 years old, poised on the verge of a great future, which is what is so hard about reading these things today.
她今年 21 岁，即将迎来美好的未来，这就是今天阅读这些文章的难度所在。
It's a future she never got to live.
这是她永远无法生活的未来。
Well, she had a lot of potential, but I don't think it really got realized.
嗯，她有很大的潜力，但我认为她还没有真正发挥出来。
Those are two kids, my dad and my uncle, Barry and Lenny, now in their 80s.
那是两个孩子，我爸爸和我叔叔巴里和莱尼，现在已经 80 多岁了。
I asked them to read through this stuff and talk to me about it.
我请他们阅读这些内容并与我讨论。
And there were so many things that stopped her from realizing her potential.
有太多的事情阻止她发挥自己的潜力。
After she graduated, Frieda taught junior high school for a year and then she married and very quickly, like amazingly quickly, her marriage fell apart.
毕业后，弗里达在初中教了一年书，然后她结婚了，很快，令人惊讶的是，她的婚姻就破裂了。
By her late 20s, she was a single mom with two kids.
20 多岁的时候，她成为了一个有两个孩子的单亲妈妈。
This is back in the 1930s.
这要追溯到 20 世纪 30 年代。
This is during the depression.
这是在萧条时期。
And to help support her whole extended family, she apparently got drafted to work in the family business, which was this little corner grocery store in downtown Baltimore where they lived.
为了帮助养活她的整个大家庭，她显然被征召到家族企业工作，那就是他们居住的巴尔的摩市中心的一家街角小杂货店。
Yeah, it was a drag.
是的，这是一个拖累。
And it was dragging her down.
这也拖累了她。
Did she talk about wanting to teach during those years when she was running the store?
她经营店的那些年有没有说过想教书？
And when did you guys start to work in the store?
你们什么时候开始在店里工作的？
Oh, we always did, from the time we were a little kids.
哦，从我们还是个小孩子的时候起，我们就一直这样做。
Yeah, we always did.
是的，我们一直都是这样。
Ira Glass Like, you were like, five or six years old and you're working in the store?
Ira Glass：就像，你当时五六岁，在商店工作？
Yep.
是的。
Well, seven or eight.
嗯，七八个。
Ira Glass What would you do?
艾拉·格拉斯 你会怎么做？
Stock the shelves, open up-- Ira Glass Yeah, stocking.
货架上备货，打开——艾拉·格拉斯 是的，备货。
Even wait on people, I think, as I remember.
我记得，我想，甚至还要伺候人。
Frieda's parents and other relatives lived above and next door to the store.
弗里达的父母和其他亲戚住在商店的楼上和隔壁。
It was run by Frieda's dad, Isidore.
它由弗里达的父亲伊西多尔经营。
He was kind of a soft touch and would lose a lot of money by extending credit to customers who'd never pay it back.
他的态度有点软弱，如果向永远不还款的顾客提供信贷，他会损失很多钱。
I'm named for Isidore.
我以伊西多尔的名字命名。
I have his Hebrew name, Yitzchak.
我有他的希伯来名字，Yitzchak。
They didn't name me Isidore because they realized at some point that Isidore Glass is a parsable sentence in English, is a door glass.
他们没有给我起名叫伊西多尔，因为他们在某个时候意识到伊西多尔玻璃在英语中是一个可解析的句子，是一块门玻璃。
Also, I was told years ago by my mom that they wanted a name that was less Jew-y.
另外，几年前我妈妈告诉我，他们想要一个不那么犹太人的名字。
The fact that with that mission they ended up at Ira just shows how little the whole family knew about the world of non-Jews at the time.
事实上，他们最终来到了爱尔兰共和军，这一事实表明全家人对当时非犹太人的世界知之甚少。
Anyway, Frieda's college file also includes all the alumni questionnaires that she sent into Goucher in the decades after she graduated.
不管怎样，弗里达的大学档案还包括她毕业后几十年里发给古彻的所有校友调查问卷。
And in those, in the formal language of somebody filling out a form, she describes first helping in the store in the 1930s-- doing the books, waiting on customers, bringing her kids to help work-- and then finally taking the store over when her dad got sick in 1950, trying to keep the store afloat as it slowly went bankrupt.
在这些内容中，她用填写表格的正式语言描述了自己在 1930 年代在商店里帮忙的情况——记账、接待顾客、带孩子去帮忙工作——最后在 1950 年她父亲生病时接管了商店，试图让商店在慢慢破产的情况下维持下去。
There was another thing that shaped her life in ways that nobody could foresee back when she was 21, getting those glowing evaluations from her teachers.
还有一件事以她 21 岁时无人能预见的方式塑造了她的生活，那就是她得到了老师们的热情评价。
Her health affliction was the dominating component of her life, and determined a lot of what eventually happened to her.
她的健康问题是她生活的主要组成部分，并决定了她最终发生的很多事情。
I don't know how much you know, Ira, about how she got cancer.
艾拉，我不知道你对她是如何患上癌症了解多少。
Actually, I know that story well.
事实上，我很了解这个故事。
When she was a teenager, Frieda got acne.
当弗里达十几岁的时候，她长了痤疮。
And the doctor treated it-- this is the early 1920s-- with this new miracle treatment, x-rays.
20 世纪 20 年代初，医生用这种新的奇迹疗法——X 射线——对其进行了治疗。
He bombarded her face with x-rays.
他用X光照射她的脸。
Nobody would do this today, because we now understand that gives you cancer, and that's exactly what it did to her.
今天没有人会这样做，因为我们现在知道这会导致癌症，而这正是它对她造成的后果。
She got skin cancer when she was 32, which back then, doctors had a hard time treating.
她 32 岁时患上了皮肤癌，当时医生很难治疗这种癌症。
Uncle Lenny, I should say, as a doctor who was also her kid, remembers chapter and verse of all the operations and procedures and what went wrong and how it would recur.
我应该说，莱尼叔叔作为一名医生，也是她的孩子，记得所有手术和程序的章节和内容，以及出了什么问题以及如何再次发生。
And it just, it slowly took over most of her face and her nose.
只是，它慢慢地占据了她的大部分脸和鼻子。
Well, eventually that became something which is never seen today, which is called a rodent ulcer.
好吧，最终这变成了今天从未见过的东西，称为啮齿动物溃疡。
It got that name because it looked as though some rodent had eaten someone's face away.
它之所以得名，是因为它看起来像是某种啮齿动物把某人的脸吃掉了。
How many surgeries did she have on her face, Lenny?
莱尼，她的脸做了多少次手术？
In the time I knew her, Grandma Frieda's face was made of these pale white rectangular sheets of grafted flesh sewn together around an easy to imagine skull.
在我认识弗里达奶奶的时候，她的脸是由这些浅白色的长方形移植肉片缝在一个容易想象的头骨周围制成的。
Her nose was a misshapen bulb that was somewhere between human nose and pig nose.
她的鼻子是一个畸形的球状体，介于人鼻子和猪鼻子之间。
But of course, you know, the family that you're born into is the very definition of what seems normal.
但当然，你知道，你出生的家庭就是看似正常的定义。
And my sisters and cousins and I-- like, she made Jell-O for us, you know?
我的姐妹、表兄弟姐妹和我——比如，她为我们做了果冻，你知道吗？
She played Scrabble.
她玩拼字游戏。
Like, we loved her.
就像，我们爱她。
We didn't think anything of it.
我们什么也没想。
In the late '50s, finally, after her father died and the corner store went broke at last, Frieda did get to teach again full time.
上世纪 50 年代末，弗里达的父亲去世，街角商店终于破产，弗里达终于再次全职教书。
It was a quarter century after she graduated from Goucher.
她从古彻大学毕业已经过去四分之一个世纪了。
She taught high school French.
她教高中法语。
Apparently the first day of class she would always tell the students to take a good long stare at her face right now, just get it out of their systems.
显然，在上课的第一天，她总是告诉学生们现在要好好盯着她的脸，把它从他们的系统中清除掉。
Grandma Frieda's years at Goucher college, she would bring them up a lot.
弗里达奶奶在古彻学院的那些年，她经常提起这些事。
She wore her Phi Beta Kappa honor society key from Goucher, and then she would explain to strangers what it was.
她戴着 Goucher 提供的 Phi Beta Kappa 荣誉学会钥匙，然后她会向陌生人解释这是什么。
At holiday dinners, if one of us brought somebody new around, she would work Goucher into the conversation.
在节日晚宴上，如果我们中有人带了新朋友过来，她就会让古彻加入谈话。
But also, I swear, I remember her bringing it up with cashiers at the grocery store on Green Spring Avenue, and with nurses in the hospital, which I know makes her sound like a crank or something, though really she was not.
而且，我发誓，我记得她向格林斯普林大道杂货店的收银员和医院的护士提起过这件事，我知道这让她听起来像个怪人什么的，尽管她实际上不是。
Well, she talked about it because that was the only positive thing--
嗯，她谈论这件事是因为这是唯一积极的事情——
That's-- thank you, Barry.
那就是——谢谢你，巴里。
That's what I was trying to say.
这就是我想说的。
Do you think that was one of the happiest times, or maybe the happiest time, of her life, when she was at Goucher?
你认为那是她在古彻的时候最幸福的时光之一，或者也许是她一生中最幸福的时光吗？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Lenny Oh, I would say probably.
莱尼 哦，我想说可能是。
There's a page in her Goucher file that I guess was filled out when she first entered the school, typed on an old manual typewriter.
我猜她的古彻档案中有一页是她刚进学校时用一台旧手动打字机填写的。
It lists her name, her childhood address, her age-- which is 17.
上面列出了她的名字、童年地址和年龄——17 岁。
17.
17.
I've stared at that number for a long while.
我盯着这个数字看了很长一段时间。
Like, OK, when this was written down, that number was accurate.
就像，好吧，当这个被写下来时，这个数字是准确的。
She was 17.
她17岁。
And honestly, like, I'd never pictured her at 17 before this.
老实说，在此之前我从未想象过她 17 岁时的样子。
A kid with pretty skin-- the acne treatment apparently worked like a charm-- looking forward to so many things.
一个皮肤漂亮的孩子——痤疮治疗显然很有效——期待着很多事情。
I knew her in her last 20 years.
我是在她最后20年认识她的。
But her first 20, I don't know, it was comforting to think that she got those too.
但她的前 20 个，我不知道，想到她也得到了这些，我感到很欣慰。
That that was just as real a part of her life as the part that I knew.
那是她生活中真实的一部分，就像我所知道的那样。
I think it's easy to decide that what's happening like, right now, right this second, is the most important thing.
我认为很容易判断此时此刻正在发生的事情是最重要的。
But in fact, the moments before are just as real as the moments right now.
但事实上，之前的时刻和现在一样真实。
And it all looks so much more complicated if you take them into account.
如果你考虑到它们，一切看起来都要复杂得多。
Well, today on our show we have stories like the moment that's documented in my Grandma Frieda's college file, the moment before things went to hell.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们有一些故事，就像我奶奶弗里达的大学档案中记录的那一刻一样，那就是事情陷入地狱之前的那一刻。
We have two very different stories.
我们有两个截然不同的故事。
In one, politicians nearly solved something that today is so deeply unsolved that we have shut down our government over it.
其中之一是，政客们几乎解决了一些今天尚未解决的问题，以至于我们已经关闭了我们的政府。
In the other, post divorce time travels for 90 minutes into pre-divorce.
另一种情况下，离婚后的时间会穿越到离婚前的 90 分钟。
WBEZ Chicago, I'm Ira Glass.
WBEZ 芝加哥，我是 Ira Glass。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Where Have You Gone, Barbara Jordan?
第一幕，芭芭拉·乔丹，你去哪儿了？
Our Nation Turns Its Lonely Eyes to You.
我们的国家将孤独的目光投向你。
OK, so government gets shut down over a border wall.
好吧，政府因边境墙而关闭。
President says there's a national emergency.
总统说全国进入紧急状态。
Democrats say there isn't one.
民主党人说没有。
But there is a moment before all this, before this whole conversation went into the divisive, nobody is listening to anybody hell that it seems to be in today.
但在这一切之前，在整个谈话陷入分歧之前，有一个时刻，没有人在听任何人的声音，就像今天一样。
There was a moment back in the '90s when Congress had a bunch of people with completely opposing points of view on this sit down, hash it out, and come up with a solution to the whole thing.
早在 90 年代，国会就有一群观点完全相反的人坐下来讨论，并提出整个问题的解决方案。
And they came up with one, a comprehensive one that would have fixed so many of the things that we're arguing about today.
他们提出了一个全面的方案，可以解决我们今天争论的许多问题。
We wouldn't even be talking about this today this way.
我们今天甚至不会以这种方式谈论这个。
All of this would've played out differently.
所有这一切都会有不同的结果。
And at the center of the whole thing was this one woman-- charismatic, principled, beloved by Democrats and Republicans, and so different from anybody we can think of in politics today.
整个事件的中心就是这位女性——魅力非凡，有原则，深受民主党和共和党的喜爱，与我们今天能想到的政坛上的任何人都截然不同。
Her whole mission and philosophy of politics was so different from anything you see today.
她的整个使命和政治哲学与你今天看到的任何东西都非常不同。
One of our producers, Miki Meek, like me and a few others here on our staff has become kind of obsessed with immigration these last few years.
我们的制片人之一米基·米克（Miki Meek）和我以及我们的其他几位员工一样，在过去几年里对移民问题有些着迷。
She has the story.
她有故事。
And we start with a little context.
我们从一些背景开始。
In the 90s when all this happens, immigration hadn't become this nationally charged partisan issue.
在这一切发生的 90 年代，移民还没有成为全国性的党派问题。
It was a topic that made most people's eyes glaze over.
这是一个让大多数人目光呆滞的话题。
Most of the country didn't even know that a historic migration from Mexico to the US was underway.
该国大多数人甚至不知道从墨西哥到美国的历史性移民正在进行。
That is, unless you live in a state like Florida, Texas, or California where most of the undocumented immigrants were settling.
也就是说，除非你住在佛罗里达州、德克萨斯州或加利福尼亚州等大多数无证移民定居的州。
In those states, voters were getting angry.
在这些州，选民们感到愤怒。
So the politics of immigration started to change.
因此，移民政治开始发生变化。
And the big bang that really launched everyone into this new world happened in California in 1994-- a ballot measure called Prop 187.
真正让每个人进入这个新世界的大爆炸发生在 1994 年的加利福尼亚州——一项名为“187 号提案”的投票措施。
Prop 187 banned undocumented immigrants and their kids from getting public benefits or going to schools, and made teachers and doctors turn over the names of anyone they knew or even suspected was undocumented.
第 187 号提案禁止无证移民及其子女获得公共福利或上学，并要求教师和医生交出他们认识甚至怀疑的任何无证移民的姓名。
Huge parts of it were unconstitutional.
其中很大一部分是违宪的。
The Californians voted for it by an overwhelming margin.
加州人以压倒性优势投票支持了该法案。
For Democrats in the state, this was a wake up call.
对于该州的民主党人来说，这是一个警钟。
And one of the things that's so interesting when you listen back to all this stuff now is that they do not sound like the Democrats today.
当你现在回听所有这些东西时，最有趣的事情之一是，他们听起来不像今天的民主党。
For instance, here's Senator Diane Feinstein from California.
例如，这是来自加利福尼亚州的参议员黛安·范斯坦 (Diane Feinstein)。
She was against the harsh restrictions of Prop 187, but at the same time she wanted to crack down on illegal immigration and she called for it on the Senate floor.
她反对187号提案的严格限制，但同时她想打击非法移民，并在参议院呼吁这样做。
There is simply no time to lose.
根本没有时间可以浪费。
Too many people are still able to illegally cross our borders and too few states, most notably California, carry the burden of having to support, educate, and often incarcerate, the hundreds of thousands who enter this country illegally each year.
仍然有太多的人能够非法越境，而很少有州（尤其是加利福尼亚州）承担着每年必须支持、教育并经常监禁数十万非法进入该国的人的负担。
This is her in the mid '90s, and this next thing she says is eerily prophetic.
这是 90 年代中期的她，她接下来所说的话具有令人毛骨悚然的预言性。
Ladies and gentlemen, let me say to you what I, honest to God, believe is the truth.
女士们先生们，让我对上帝说实话，我相信的是事实。
If we cannot affect sound, just, and moderate controls, the people of America will rise to stop all immigration.
如果我们不能影响健全、公正和适度的控制，美国人民将起来阻止所有移民。
I am as sure as that as I am that I'm standing here now.
我确信我现在站在这里。
You can almost picture her putting her hands up at the border of California, trying to prevent xenophobia from spreading.
你几乎可以想象她在加利福尼亚州边境举起双手，试图阻止仇外心理蔓延。
These were very different times and both sides moved quickly to figure out a solution.
这是非常不同的时代，双方都迅速采取行动寻找解决方案。
So Congress put together a team, a blue ribbon commission, to come up with proposals that Congress could turn into laws.
因此，国会组建了一个团队，即一个蓝丝带委员会，提出国会可以将其转化为法律的提案。
I know how boring this sounds.
我知道这听起来有多无聊。
Commissions are the joke of government, the place politicians send issues to die-- bureaucratic, ineffective.
委员会是政府的玩笑，政客们在那里把问题送去解决——官僚主义、低效。
But I promise, the story I'm going to tell you is not that.
但我保证，我要告诉你的故事不是这样的。
For starters, they packed this commission with people who are so different from each other that it's almost comical.
首先，他们在这个委员会中挤满了彼此截然不同的人，这几乎是滑稽的。
On one side there was the guy who co-wrote Prop 187 and on the other side, a Democrat who helped almost three million undocumented immigrants get amnesty here.
一边是第 187 号提案的共同起草者，另一边是一位帮助近 300 万无证移民在这里获得大赦的民主党人。
I spoke with all the commission members who are still alive.
我与所有还活着的委员会成员进行了交谈。
There's five of them.
他们有五个。
I told my wife that this commission will not be able to agree on whether it's Monday or Tuesday.
我告诉我的妻子，该委员会无法就星期一还是星期二达成一致。
This is Michael Teitelbaum, a demographer that Republicans appointed.
这是迈克尔·泰特尔鲍姆，共和党任命的人口统计学家。
I didn't know all of the appointees but I knew some of them.
我并不认识所有被任命的人，但我认识其中的一些人。
And my conclusion was that there was such a wide range of opinion on this very contentious set of issues that there would be no way this commission could reach a consensus on anything.
我的结论是，对于这一系列非常有争议的问题存在如此广泛的意见，以至于该委员会不可能就任何事情达成共识。
That's where this remarkable woman came in, the hero of our story.
这就是这位非凡的女性登场的地方，她是我们故事的英雄。
Her name was Barbara Jordan, and she was a civil rights icon, a democratic representative from Texas who also incidentally was black and gay.
她的名字叫芭芭拉·乔丹（Barbara Jordan），是一位民权偶像，是德克萨斯州的民主党代表，顺便说一句，她也是黑人和同性恋。
She's been dead for more than 20 years now.
她已经去世20多年了。
And to understand the unique spot she held in American politics, some background.
要了解她在美国政治中的独特地位，需要了解一些背景。
She grew up in Houston, went to segregated schools and then law school.
她在休斯顿长大，就读于种族隔离学校，然后又进入法学院。
Started running for office in her 20s and broke a bunch of barriers.
20多岁开始竞选公职，打破了许多障碍。
In the '60s she became the first black woman elected to the Texas legislature.
20世纪60年代，她成为第一位当选德克萨斯州立法机构成员的黑人女性。
And then in 1972, the first to serve in the US Congress from the south.
1972年，第一位来自南方的人在美国国会任职。
She became this breakout national star during the Watergate hearings in 1974.
1974 年水门事件听证会上，她成为了举世瞩目的全国明星。
At the time, she was just a 30 something newcomer on the House Judiciary Committee that was deciding whether or not they were really going to impeach the President of the United States.
当时，她只是众议院司法委员会的一名 30 多岁的新人，该委员会正在决定是否真的要弹劾美国总统。
And it's pretty much what you'd expect, a bunch of older white men on live TV sounding like your typical politician, giving their opening statements.
这几乎正如你所期望的那样，一群年长的白人在电视直播中发表开场陈词，听起来就像典型的政治家一样。
Until it came time for Jordan, who wore this big boxy orange suit, bright camera lights glaring off her black rimmed glasses-- a freshman Congresswoman, and at that point one of four black woman ever to serve in Congress.
直到乔丹穿着这套四四方方的橙色西装，明亮的相机灯光在她的黑框眼镜上闪闪发光——她是一位新任国会女议员，也是当时在国会任职的四名黑人女性之一。
And when she opened her mouth, she spoke in this style that was grand, but also personal.
当她张开嘴时，她说话的风格既宏大又个性化。
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
谢谢主席先生。
Mr. Chairman, you are a strong man.
主席先生，您是一个坚强的人。
And it has not been easy, but we have tried as best we can to give you as much assistance as possible.
这并不容易，但我们已尽力为您提供尽可能多的帮助。
Earlier today, we heard the beginning of the preamble to the Constitution of the United States-- we the people.
今天早些时候，我们听到了美国宪法序言的开头——我们人民。
It's a very eloquent beginning.
这是一个非常雄辩的开始。
But when that document was completed on the 17th of September in 1787, I was not included in that we the people.
但当该文件于 1787 年 9 月 17 日完成时，我并没有被包括在我们人民之中。
I felt somehow for many years that George Washington and Alexander Hamilton just left me out by mistake.
多年来，我总觉得乔治·华盛顿和亚历山大·汉密尔顿错误地将我排除在外。
When I first heard this, I put it on repeat.
当我第一次听到这句话时，我把它重复了一遍。
I love how she sounds.
我喜欢她的声音。
Even then, her voice was considered unusual, like JFK or Churchill, with maybe a little Katherine Hepburn thrown in there, which turns out is just how she spoke, whether she was on a stage or not.
即使在那时，她的声音也被认为是不寻常的，就像肯尼迪或丘吉尔一样，其中可能有一点凯瑟琳·赫本的味道，事实证明这就是她说话的方式，无论她是否在舞台上。
And at that moment during Watergate, millions of Americans heard her for the very first time and lots of them were like, wow, who is this woman talking this way?
在水门事件的那一刻，数百万美国人第一次听到她的声音，其中很多人都想，哇，这个女人用这种方式说话是谁？
--but through the process of amendment, interpretation, and court decision, I have finally been included in we the people.
——但经过修正、解释、法庭判决的过程，我终于被纳入我们人民之中了。
Today, I am an inquisitor.
今天，我是一名检察官。
And hyperbole would not be fictional and would not overstate the solemness that I feel right now.
夸张不会是虚构的，也不会夸大我现在感受到的庄严。
My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total.
我对宪法的信心是完整的、完整的、完全的。
And I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution.
我不会坐在这里，袖手旁观，目睹宪法遭到削弱、颠覆、破坏。
A president is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the Constitution.
如果总统试图颠覆宪法，他就会被弹劾。
She explained, the president is not above the law.
她解释说，总统并不凌驾于法律之上。
He is not above the Constitution.
他并不凌驾于宪法之上。
It was a galvanizing moment.
这是一个激动人心的时刻。
People remarked how fair minded and serious she was.
人们评论她是多么公正和严肃。
Dan Rather, who covered the Watergate hearings, said later that when Jordan finished there was no doubt in his mind that the president would be impeached or have to resign.
报道水门事件听证会的丹·拉瑟后来说，当乔丹结束发言时，他毫不怀疑总统将被弹劾或必须辞职。
He said she created this feeling of, as hard as it seems we have to go on with this.
他说她创造了一种感觉，尽管看起来我们必须继续下去。
We don't have a choice.
我们别无选择。
Jordan's office was immediately swarming with camera crews and flooded with fan mail from all over the country.
乔丹的办公室立即挤满了摄像人员，并收到了来自全国各地的粉丝邮件。
Her appeal cut across party lines.
她的呼吁跨越了党派界限。
One man even put up 25 billboards that said, "Thank you Barbara Jordan for explaining our Constitution." She had suddenly been catapulted into this spot where people looked at her as a moral authority at a particularly cynical moment in politics.
一名男子甚至竖起了 25 个广告牌，上面写着：“谢谢芭芭拉·乔丹解释我们的宪法。”她突然被推到了这个位置，在政治上一个特别愤世嫉俗的时刻，人们将她视为道德权威。
In Congress her colleagues like to joke that Jordan had the voice of God, which is kind of true.
在国会，她的同事喜欢开玩笑说乔丹拥有上帝的声音，这确实是事实。
Her mom and dad were Baptist.
她的妈妈和爸爸都是浸信会教徒。
Dad did some preaching.
爸爸做了一些布道。
Her mom gave a lot of speeches, too.
她的妈妈也发表了很多演讲。
That's just how she grew up talking.
她就是这样长大的。
Jordan was a champion debater in college.
乔丹在大学时是辩论冠军。
She says that's where she picked up the style of speech.
她说她的演讲风格就是从那时开始的。
Two years after Watergate, Barbara got asked to give the big speech at the Democratic National Convention-- the keynote.
水门事件两年后，芭芭拉受邀在民主党全国代表大会上发表重要演讲——主旨演讲。
The other keynote speaker that year was John Glenn, senator and astronaut.
那年的另一位主讲人是参议员兼宇航员约翰·格伦。
The crowd barely paid attention to him.
人群几乎没有注意到他。
Then Barbara Jordan took the stage.
然后芭芭拉·乔丹上台。
This is by far the biggest ovation anyone has received here in this opening session of the Democratic Convention.
这是迄今为止在民主党全国代表大会开幕式上收到的最热烈的掌声。
This time the convention has really come alive.
这一次的大会真是热闹非凡。
This video is totally electrifying to watch.
这段视频看起来非常令人兴奋。
The clapping went on for three minutes straight before Jordan could speak.
在乔丹开口说话之前，掌声持续了三分钟。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
There is something different about tonight.
今晚有一些不一样的事情。
There is something special about tonight.
今晚有一些特别的事情。
What is different, what is special?
有什么不同，有什么特别？
I, Barbara Jordan, am a keynote speaker.
我，芭芭拉乔丹，是主讲人。
She was the first African-American to give the convention's keynote.
她是第一位在大会上发表主旨演讲的非裔美国人。
Afterward, there was a movement to make her Jimmy Carter's Vice President, though she quickly swatted that down.
后来，有人要求她担任吉米·卡特的副总统，但她很快就予以否决。
She issued a press release saying, he'd never pick someone who's both black and a woman.
她发表新闻稿称，他永远不会选择既是黑人又是女性的人。
Cut to 1992, 16 years later.
镜头切换到 1992 年，16 年后。
Jordan's retired, leading a quiet life in Austin with her partner and teaching at a university, but the government needs someone to head its bipartisan immigration team.
乔丹已经退休，与伴侣在奥斯汀过着平静的生活，并在一所大学任教，但政府需要有人来领导其两党移民团队。
Susan Martin, a veteran of immigration policy fights on Capitol Hill, leads the search.
苏珊·马丁（Susan Martin）是国会山移民政策斗争的资深人士，她领导了这次搜寻工作。
Jordan had never worked on the issue, but she was Martin's first pick.
乔丹从未研究过这个问题，但她是马丁的首选。
I had never met her but I thought that she stood for integrity, and balance, and fairness.
我从未见过她，但我认为她代表着正直、平衡和公平。
And she started off saying she was just too busy.
她一开始就说她太忙了。
She thought it was an important issue, it wasn't that at all, but she couldn't do it.
她认为这是一个重要的问题，其实根本不是那么重要，但她做不到。
At that time, Jordan had multiple sclerosis, sometimes needed a wheelchair and walker to get around.
当时，乔丹患有多发性硬化症，有时需要轮椅和助行器才能出行。
But Susan said she kept trying to convince her, telling her anti-immigrant views were spreading.
但苏珊说，她一直试图说服她，告诉她反移民观点正在蔓延。
The rhetoric was getting more racist, and starting to divide the country.
种族主义言论变得更加种族主义，并开始分裂国家。
Jordan was alarmed by all that.
乔丹对这一切感到震惊。
She didn't want immigrants to become scapegoats.
她不希望移民成为替罪羊。
So she said yes.
所以她说是的。
As someone who's been watching this immigration debate play out for the past few years it was incredible to hear what Barbara Jordan pulled off, how she managed to get people who didn't think they could agree to agree.
作为一个在过去几年里一直关注这场移民辩论的人，听到芭芭拉·乔丹（Barbara Jordan）所取得的成就，以及她如何设法让那些认为自己无法同意的人达成一致，真是令人难以置信。
She brought them to unanimous consensus on nearly everything.
她让他们在几乎所有事情上都达成了一致。
She forced them to stake out a middle ground on stuff that was controversial then and still is today.
她迫使他们在当时和今天仍然存在争议的问题上采取中间立场。
I asked all the commissioners how exactly she got this thing to work.
我问所有的委员她到底是如何让这件事发挥作用的。
They told me that Jordan first set up a bunch of ground rules for how they could make decisions together, all nine of them.
他们告诉我，乔丹首先制定了一系列基本规则，指导他们如何共同做出决定，总共九条。
Again, here's Michael Teitelbaum, one of the Republican appointees to the commission.
迈克尔·泰特尔鲍姆（Michael Teitelbaum）再次发言，他是该委员会的共和党任命者之一。
I remember her saying, we are nine in number but we are not the Supreme Court.
我记得她说，我们有九个人，但我们不是最高法院。
If we vote 5 to 4, on something that is a meaningless set of recommendations.
如果我们以 5 票对 4 票投票，那么这就是一组毫无意义的建议。
So I don't think we should be seeking small majorities for opinion A or B, but we should be seeking instead broad consensus.
因此，我认为我们不应该寻求 A 或 B 意见的少数多数，而应该寻求广泛的共识。
And everybody agreed on that.
大家都同意这一点。
For Barbara, this approach was bigger than just the commission.
对于芭芭拉来说，这种方法不仅仅是佣金。
She didn't see compromise as a sign of weakness.
她并不认为妥协是软弱的表现。
She saw it as a moral imperative.
她认为这是一种道德要求。
She taught this in her college ethics and political values classes.
她在大学道德和政治价值观课程中教授这一点。
She believed it was actually immoral to not compromise if your job was to legislate.
她认为，如果你的工作是立法，那么不妥协实际上是不道德的。
When she was still a politician, she had a reputation as a pragmatist who despised ideologues and party purists.
当她还是一名政治家时，她就享有实用主义者的名声，鄙视空想家和政党纯粹主义者。
She liked drinking and playing guitar with conservatives after hours and she had no problems cutting deals or making friends with her polar opposites.
她喜欢在下班后和保守派一起喝酒、弹吉他，而且她在与截然相反的人做生意或交朋友方面没有任何问题。
In fact, in the Texas Senate, she thought it was the only way she could get any change to happen.
事实上，在德克萨斯州参议院，她认为这是实现变革的唯一途径。
She'd take opportunities where she could find them, which is how she later got West Virginian Senator Robert Byrd, a former Ku Klux Klan member, to help her get enough votes to expand the Voting Rights Act to Mexican Americans.
她会抓住一切可以找到的机会，这就是她后来如何得到西弗吉尼亚州参议员、前三K党成员罗伯特·伯德的帮助，帮助她获得足够的选票，将投票权法案扩大到墨西哥裔美国人。
On the commission, Jordan also worked with everyone to come up with language that would establish tone which was just as important as the actual policies themselves.
在委员会中，乔丹还与每个人一起制定了与实际政策本身同样重要的基调语言。
The tone would be respectful, send a message that they were listening to both sides.
语气会很尊重，传达出他们正在倾听双方意见的信息。
So on one hand, she was tough on illegal immigration.
因此，一方面，她对非法移民采取强硬态度。
We've got to have the strength to say no to the people who are not supposed to get in.
我们必须有力量对不应该进入的人说不。
We need to make deportation a part of a credible immigration policy.
我们需要将驱逐出境作为可信移民政策的一部分。
But at the same time, she was pro immigration.
但与此同时，她支持移民。
The commission believes that legal immigration has strengthened the country and it continue to do so.
该委员会认为，合法移民增强了国家实力，并将继续这样做。
We strongly denounce-- denounce on our commission-- the hostility which seems to be developing around immigrants.
我们强烈谴责——在我们的委员会中谴责——围绕移民似乎正在发展的敌意。
That is not healthy when we seek to blame immigrants for all of our social ills.
当我们试图将所有社会弊病归咎于移民时，这是不健康的。
We cannot sustain ourselves as a nation if we condone divisiveness in this society of immigrants.
如果我们纵容这个移民社会的分裂，我们就无法维持作为一个国家的地位。
To me, one of the most impressive things I learned about this bipartisan commission is just how all out they went for five years.
对我来说，我从这个两党委员会中了解到的最令人印象深刻的事情之一就是他们五年来是如何全力以赴的。
Early on they were constantly on the road because they wanted input from the rest of the country.
早期，他们一直在路上，因为他们需要来自全国其他地区的意见。
In El Paso, Chicago, Seattle, San Diego, Nogales, and a bunch of other places.
在埃尔帕索、芝加哥、西雅图、圣地亚哥、诺加利斯和许多其他地方。
They held public hearings that were basically open mic sessions, that lasted for hours.
他们举行了公开听证会，基本上是公开麦克风会议，持续了几个小时。
They also did ride alongs with border patrol, toured refugee camps in Kenya, and met with government officials in Mexico.
他们还与边境巡逻队一起骑行，参观了肯尼亚的难民营，并会见了墨西哥的政府官员。
While they were there, one of the commissioners told me this poignant detail.
当他们在那里时，一位委员告诉了我这个令人心酸的细节。
When they got to buildings that didn't have ramps, they just picked Jordan up in her wheelchair and carried her in.
当他们到达没有坡道的建筑物时，他们只是把坐在轮椅上的乔丹抱起来，然后把她带进去。
When you compare today to back then, the single biggest difference is that it was possible for the two sides to just sit down and talk about how to cut down on illegal immigration, mainly because politicians were still all over the map on the issue.
今天和那时相比，最大的区别是，双方有可能坐下来讨论如何减少非法移民，主要是因为政客们在这个问题上仍然意见不一。
Positions hadn't hardened along predictable party lines.
立场并没有按照可预见的党派路线变得强硬。
Yes, Republicans were generally more skeptical about immigration, and Democrats were more in favor of it.
是的，共和党人普遍对移民持怀疑态度，而民主党人则更支持移民。
But there were also lots of pro-business Republicans who wanted cheap labor, and pro-union Democrats who did not.
但也有很多支持商业的共和党人想要廉价劳动力，而支持工会的民主党人则不需要。
They wanted to protect American workers.
他们想保护美国工人。
So this was a moment when things were more malleable, before immigration became such a loaded symbolic issue.
因此，在移民成为如此具有象征意义的问题之前，这是一个事情更具可塑性的时刻。
It was a moment before so many families moved here.
不久之后，这么多家庭搬到了这里。
Most of the undocumented were young single men coming for jobs.
大多数无证移民都是来找工作的年轻单身男子。
And it was a moment when, unlike today, both sides, Democrats and Republicans, agreed that illegal immigration was an urgent problem.
与今天不同的是，在那一刻，民主党和共和党双方都同意非法移民是一个紧迫的问题。
Here's Bill Clinton giving his State of the Union in 1995.
这是比尔·克林顿 1995 年发表的国情咨文。
At that point, the undocumented population had grown to around five million, less than half of what it is now.
那时，无证人口已增至约 500 万，不到现在的一半。
All Americans, not only in the states most heavily affected but in every place in this country, are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country.
所有美国人，不仅在受影响最严重的州，而且在这个国家的每个地方，都对大量非法外国人进入我国感到不安。
The jobs they hold might otherwise be held by citizens or legal immigrants.
他们所担任的工作原本可能由公民或合法移民担任。
In case this isn't clear, at the time protecting the working class from an influx of cheap labor was still a central part of the Democratic Party's platform.
如果还不清楚的话，当时保护工人阶级免受廉价劳动力涌入的影响仍然是民主党政纲的核心部分。
And the way to protect American workers and stop people from entering the country seemed obvious to the commission-- make it impossible for undocumented workers to get jobs.
对于委员会来说，保护美国工人并阻止人们进入该国的方法似乎是显而易见的——让无证工人无法找到工作。
This was the easiest point of agreement for the commission.
这是委员会最容易达成一致的一点。
They voted to hit businesses with big fines and even jail time if they were caught hiring undocumented workers, and to create a mandatory electronic system that employers would use to check if job applicants were legal to work.
他们投票决定，如果企业被发现雇用无证工人，将处以巨额罚款，甚至入狱，并创建一个强制性的电子系统，雇主将用该系统来检查求职者是否合法工作。
This eventually became known as E-Verify.
这最终被称为电子验证。
A thornier issue was birthright citizenship, the thing that President Trump said he wanted to end just before the midterms.
一个更棘手的问题是出生公民权，特朗普总统表示他希望在中期选举前结束这一问题。
This is the law that says if you enter the country illegally and have a child here, that child is a citizen.
法律规定，如果您非法进入该国并在这里生了孩子，那么该孩子就是公民。
Jordan settled this really quickly.
乔丹很快就解决了这个问题。
She flexed her moral authority because birthright citizenship is in the Constitution.
她展示了自己的道德权威，因为宪法中有与生俱来的公民权。
Here's one of the commissioners, Bruce Morrison.
这是委员之一布鲁斯·莫里森。
There were members, I won't name a particular members, but there were members who had the anchor baby line.
有一些成员，我不会说出特定成员的名字，但有些成员拥有主播婴儿线。
And Barbara made clear where she stood on the 14th Amendment, and that was one of the few examples where she just put her foot down and basically said, you know, over my dead body.
芭芭拉明确表达了她对第十四修正案的立场，这是她坚定立场的少数几个例子之一，基本上是在我的尸体上说，你知道的。
The 14th Amendment reads all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens.
第十四修正案规定，所有在美国出生或入籍的人都是公民。
The 14th Amendment overturned the Dred Scott decision which said black people born in America could never be citizens.
第十四修正案推翻了德雷德·斯科特的裁决，该裁决称在美国出生的黑人永远不能成为公民。
I am not about to advocate changing the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
我不打算主张修改美国宪法第十四修正案。
Those parents are not citizens but that child is a citizen.
那些父母不是公民，但那个孩子是公民。
And as a citizen of this country, that child is entitled to benefits and they are not to be taken away.
作为这个国家的公民，那个孩子有权享受福利，而且这些福利不应该被带走。
The most explosive issue the commission faced, the most difficult question Jordan guided them through, had to do with immigrant families arriving in the US.
该委员会面临的最具爆炸性的问题，也是约旦引导他们解决的最困难的问题，与抵达美国的移民家庭有关。
Specifically, should people be allowed to bring their whole extended families over-- parents and brothers and sisters, and once they get green cards their spouses and kids?
具体来说，是否应该允许人们将他们的整个大家庭——父母、兄弟姐妹，以及一旦他们获得绿卡的配偶和孩子——带过来？
President Trump calls this chain migration.
特朗普总统将这种现象称为“链式移民”。
He thinks it's unfair and dangerous, foreigners taking advantage of the system.
他认为外国人利用这一制度是不公平且危险的。
But Jordan's commission came up with a totally different way to frame this issue.
但乔丹的委员会提出了一种完全不同的方式来解决这个问题。
She talked about it in a way that's much more humane than how we hear it talked about today, with no fear mongering.
她谈论这件事的方式比我们今天听到的方式更加人性化，没有散布恐惧。
Though it took them a year to figure this out the commission said, let's just be practical about the situation.
委员会表示，尽管他们花了一年的时间才解决这个问题，但我们还是要现实一点。
They said, look at how things are going now with family visas.
他们说，看看现在家庭签证的进展如何。
It's a total backed up mess.
这完全是一团乱七八糟的备份。
At the time, if you were a US citizen with a sibling in the Philippines, the wait time to get into the US was 18 years.
当时，如果你是美国公民，有兄弟姐妹在菲律宾，进入美国的等待时间是 18 年。
The commissioners felt the US was making promises it couldn't keep.
委员们认为美国正在做出无法兑现的承诺。
Again, here's former commissioner Bruce Morrison.
前任专员布鲁斯·莫里森（Bruce Morrison）再次发言。
This, to me, was the number one issue facing our immigration system, that we were dividing families, that we were making people choose whether they should break the rules by being here illegally to live with their spouse, or whether they should be exiled.
对我来说，这是我们移民制度面临的首要问题，我们正在分裂家庭，我们让人们选择是否应该违反规则，非法居留在这里与配偶同住，或者他们是否应该被流放。
And that's a choice no family should make.
这是任何家庭都不应该做出的选择。
They said, let's prioritize.
他们说，让我们优先考虑。
Most people can agree that the most important thing is for parents to be together with their kids as quickly as possible.
大多数人都同意，最重要的是父母尽快与孩子团聚。
So they said, let's only give visas to parents and minor children, and not admit anyone else.
所以他们说，我们只给父母和未成年子女签证，不接受其他人。
This would knock lots of people off the waiting list.
这将使很多人从等候名单中消失。
Say for instance, you are an adult citizen and your brother and two sisters had been waiting for a decade.
举例来说，您是一名成年公民，您的兄弟和两个姐妹已经等待了十年。
Suddenly, sorry, there's no space for them.
突然，抱歉，没有空间了。
Also, if your kids were adults, they'd be out of luck, too.
另外，如果你的孩子成年了，他们也会不走运。
So it was a tough policy, but it was generous, too.
所以这是一项强硬的政策，但也很慷慨。
Doing this would cut the long backlogs, free up more visas.
这样做可以减少长期积压的案件，释放更多签证。
And they agreed to temporarily give out even more to bring in all the kids and spouses on the waiting list as quickly as possible.
他们同意暂时提供更多资金，以便尽快将等候名单上的所有孩子和配偶带进来。
Then once that list was cleared, they'd make sure new applicants got reunited with their families in the US within a year.
一旦名单被清除，他们将确保新申请人在一年内与美国的家人团聚。
They also built in special exceptions to allow in adult kids with disabilities and kids who put in applications as children but aged out because of long wait times.
他们还制定了特殊的例外情况，允许成年残疾儿童和儿童时期提出申请但因等待时间过长而超出年龄的孩子。
Of course, there was no getting around the fact that this approach would leave more than a million siblings and others out in the cold, unable to move to the US.
当然，无法回避的事实是，这种做法将使超过一百万的兄弟姐妹和其他人陷入困境，无法移居美国。
And not surprisingly, this upset a lot of people, including Republicans.
毫不奇怪，这让很多人感到不安，包括共和党人。
Representative Dick Armey told The New York Times that the commission's proposal was a quote, "misguided attempt to make legal immigrants the scapegoats for America's problems." Protesters picketed the commission at public hearings.
众议员迪克·阿米告诉《纽约时报》，该委员会的提议只是一句引述，“试图让合法移民成为美国问题的替罪羊，这是一种误导。”抗议者在公开听证会上对该委员会设置了纠察线。
Here's a reporter pushing Barbara Jordan during a press conference in DC.
这是一名记者在华盛顿举行的新闻发布会上推着芭芭拉·乔丹。
Many of the critics of these recommendations have qualified them as anti family and inhumane.
这些建议的许多批评者认为它们是反家庭和不人道的。
How do you respond to that?
你对此有何回应？
These recommendations are not anti family.
这些建议并不反对家庭。
Our recommendations make it easier for spouses and minor children to unite and not remain apart for such extended periods of time.
我们的建议使配偶和未成年子女更容易团聚，而不是长时间分开。
And we had testimony from people, immigrants, who said I would love to have my wife with me, or my young son or daughter.
我们得到了人们、移民的证词，他们说我很想让我的妻子或我年幼的儿子或女儿和我在一起。
And how do you say to, that person, but we've got to get somebody else's brother or sister?
你怎么说，那个人，但我们必须找别人的兄弟或姐妹？
It was a matter of reinforcing a priority in the nuclear family.
这是一个加强核心家庭优先地位的问题。
In 1995, President Clinton came out strong backing the commission saying their recommendations were consistent with his own views which were quote, "pro family, pro work, pro naturalization." The commission's report waded into the most controversial issues and made big, tough recommendations.
1995年，克林顿总统强烈支持该委员会，称他们的建议与他自己的观点一致，即“支持家庭、支持工作、支持入籍”。该委员会的报告深入探讨了最具争议性的问题，并提出了重大而强硬的建议。
They'd eliminate the diversity visa lottery and shrink the number of visas for low wage, unskilled workers.
他们将取消多样性签证抽签，并减少低工资、非技术工人的签证数量。
They called for harsh sanctions against businesses that hire undocumented workers.
他们呼吁对雇用无证工人的企业实施严厉制裁。
They'd gradually moved from an immigration system that brings in mostly family members to one that brings in workers who have skills the US lacks.
他们逐渐从主要引进家庭成员的移民制度转变为引进拥有美国所缺乏技能的工人的移民制度。
They said every few years, Congress should review how many people should be admitted into the country based on what the economy needs.
他们表示，每隔几年，国会就应该根据经济需求审查应接纳多少人进入该国。
And for the short term, they propose cutting overall legal immigration by a third.
从短期来看，他们建议将合法移民总量削减三分之一。
But at the same time, there was another side to their recommendations.
但与此同时，他们的建议还有另一面。
The commission wanted to keep refugees flowing into the country.
该委员会希望让难民继续流入该国。
They wanted protections and due process for people who get caught up in the immigration system and alternatives to detention for them.
他们希望为那些陷入移民系统的人提供保护和正当程序，并为他们提供拘留以外的替代方案。
They insisted that legal immigrants were entitled to public benefits and welfare.
他们坚持认为合法移民有权享受公共福利和福利。
They called for stricter enforcement of hate crime laws.
他们呼吁更严格地执行仇恨犯罪法。
They wanted to fund job training for American workers who were displaced by immigrants and to give money and advice to communities with new large immigrant populations, hoping this would make the whole transition less fraught and resentful.
他们希望为因移民而流离失所的美国工人提供就业培训资金，并向拥有大量新移民的社区提供资金和建议，希望这将使整个过渡过程不那么令人担忧和不满。
By late 1995, it's clear that getting all this passed won't be easy but they have the president and the immigration subcommittees in the House and Senate on their side.
到 1995 年底，很明显，让所有这些都获得通过并不容易，但总统以及众议院和参议院的移民小组委员会都站在他们一边。
And at that critical moment, Barbara Jordan got sick because of complications from leukemia which she'd had for a while but kept secret.
就在那个关键时刻，芭芭拉·乔丹因患有白血病并发症而病倒，她已经患病一段时间了，但一直保密。
She died within weeks.
几周后她就去世了。
She was 59 years old.
她今年 59 岁。
Again, here's Susan Martin, the woman who first hired Jordan for the commission.
再次，这是苏珊·马丁，她是第一个聘请乔丹担任该委员会的女性。
I found out because I got a call from her partner.
我之所以知道是因为我接到了她伴侣的电话。
And all of the commissioners and all of the staff were just, you know, they can't believe it's happened.
所有的委员和所有的工作人员都不敢相信这件事发生了。
But it was also a very serious political loss because she had the stature and the voice to be able to make sure that the commission's recommendations were heard.
但这也是一个非常严重的政治损失，因为她拥有能够确保委员会的建议得到听取的地位和声音。
That kind of authority, that's what was missing when Congress finally took up the commission's recommendations in 1996, without Jordan there to guide the debate.
当国会最终于 1996 年接受委员会的建议时，乔丹却没有在场指导辩论，这种权威正是所缺失的。
An astonishing variety of people came out and rallied against them.
各种各样的人站出来反对他们，数量惊人。
Immigrant rights groups teamed up with agribusiness and manufacturing to water down the sanctions against employers who hire undocumented workers.
移民权利组织与农业企业和制造业合作，减轻对雇用无证工人的雇主的制裁。
High tech firms opposed the cuts to worker visas.
高科技公司反对削减工人签证。
Religious groups didn't want any changes to family visas.
宗教团体不希望对家庭签证进行任何改变。
And they won.
他们赢了。
Because she wasn't there to push them.
因为她不在那里推动他们。
It's that simple.
就是这么简单。
She wasn't there.
她不在那儿。
This is Senator Alan Simpson.
我是参议员艾伦·辛普森。
He was the chair of the Senate immigration subcommittee and had a front row seat as the proposals fell apart.
他是参议院移民小组委员会的主席，在提案失败时坐在前排。
And when she disappeared, then the interest groups came in and said, boy, she's gone now.
当她消失后，利益集团进来说，天哪，她现在走了。
We'll just get in and chop this baby to bits, which they did.
我们就进去把这个婴儿砍成碎片，他们就是这么做的。
Soon enough, President Clinton backed away from his earlier endorsement of the commission and ended up signing some of the most punitive legislation against legal permanent residents.
很快，克林顿总统就放弃了之前对该委员会的支持，并最终签署了一些针对合法永久居民的最具惩罚性的立法。
It restricted their access to food stamps and Medicaid and made it easier to deport them.
它限制了他们获得食品券和医疗补助的机会，并使他们更容易被驱逐出境。
Barbara Jordan's vision of a grand compromise was dead.
芭芭拉·乔丹的宏伟妥协愿景已经破灭。
The commissioners and Senator Simpson all told me, if she'd lived--
委员们和辛普森参议员都告诉我，如果她还活着——
We'd have something better than whatever they got now, that's all I can tell you.
我们会得到比他们现在更好的东西，这就是我能告诉你的。
I don't know what aspect it would be, whether it would be enforcement or border enforcement or legalization or whatever, whatever, whatever.
我不知道这会是什么方面，是否是执法、边境执法或合法化或其他什么。
But it would be a hell of a lot better than whatever you've got now.
但它会比你现在所拥有的要好得多。
Today when Barbara Jordan's name comes up in politics, it's mainly from Republicans.
如今，当芭芭拉·乔丹的名字出现在政界时，主要是来自共和党。
That's one of the things that got me interested in her in the first place.
这是首先让我对她感兴趣的事情之一。
These immigration hardliners waving around the name of a liberal black woman, a civil rights icon, saying she's with us.
这些移民强硬派挥舞着一位自由派黑人女性、民权偶像的名字，说她和我们在一起。
Here's former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, one of her biggest fans.
这是前司法部长杰夫塞申斯，她的忠实粉丝之一。
The late civil rights pioneer Barbara Jordan found that quote, "immigration of unskilled immigrants comes at a cost to unskilled US workers." I don't think there's any doubt about that.
已故民权先驱芭芭拉·乔丹 (Barbara Jordan) 发现了这句话：“非技术移民的移民是以美国非技术工人的成本为代价的。”我认为这一点没有任何疑问。
Here's Laura Ingraham on Fox News with Bill O'Reilly.
这是劳拉·英格拉汉姆 (Laura Ingraham) 与比尔·奥莱利 (Bill O'Reilly) 共同主持福克斯新闻节目。
Well, I think Barbara Jordan had it right back in 1995.
嗯，我认为芭芭拉乔丹早在 1995 年就拥有了它。
She was a Democrat Congresswoman, African-American, head of the Commission on Immigration Reform.
她是民主党国会女议员、非裔美国人、移民改革委员会主席。
And she said, look, deportation is crucial, right?
她说，看，驱逐出境至关重要，对吧？
Because--
因为——
Even President Trump released a statement dedicated to Barbara Jordan, crediting her with his whole America first approach to immigration.
就连特朗普总统也发表了一份专门针对芭芭拉·乔丹的声明，称赞她在移民问题上采取了美国优先的态度。
The group that's been responsible for making Jordan this darling of immigration hardliners is called Numbers USA.
使约旦成为移民强硬派宠儿的一个组织叫“Numbers USA”。
They've even put her on TV again.
他们甚至再次让她上电视。
This ad ran during the last presidential campaign.
这则广告是在上次总统竞选期间投放的。
The commission finds no national interest in continuing to import lesser skilled and unskilled workers to compete in the most vulnerable parts of our labor force.
委员会发现，继续进口技能较低和非技能工人来参与我们劳动力中最脆弱的部分的竞争没有国家利益。
Many American workers do not have adequate job prospects.
许多美国工人没有足够的就业前景。
We should make their task easier to find employment, not harder.
我们应该让他们的就业任务变得更容易，而不是更难。
Paid for by Numbers USA.
由 Numbers USA 支付。
Bruce Morrison I was shocked.
布鲁斯·莫里森我很震惊。
I asked all the former commissioners what Jordan would think of her name being used this way.
我问所有前委员，乔丹对这样使用她的名字有何看法。
Some weren't that offended by it, but one of the Democratic appointees, Bruce Morrison, remembers the first time he saw it.
有些人并没有因此感到冒犯，但民主党任命的布鲁斯·莫里森（Bruce Morrison）记得他第一次看到它时的情景。
I mean, I was shocked because if she were alive, somehow you can imagine the volcano going off and burying these people under its eruption of outrage, because she always engaged in things in absolute open good faith.
我的意思是，我很震惊，因为如果她还活着，你可以想象火山爆发并在愤怒的爆发下埋葬这些人，因为她总是以绝对公开的善意从事事情。
She didn't mis-characterize what people said.
她并没有错误地描述人们所说的话。
She didn't play these games of taking people's statements out of context, and sort of try to make her a symbol of something she did not represent and did not support.
她并没有玩断章取义的游戏，而是试图让自己成为她不代表也不支持的事物的象征。
That's a kind of theft of a precious commodity.
这是一种对贵重商品的盗窃。
I get why Republicans cite her so much.
我明白为什么共和党人如此频繁地引用她的话。
They're saying, these ideas we're advocating, they're not crazy.
他们说，我们提倡的这些想法并不疯狂。
Reasonable people thought these were reasonable solutions.
理性的人认为这些是合理的解决方案。
Though Bruce Morrison points out, when the commission proposed these things they were part of a bigger package which also included things these Republicans don't support.
尽管布鲁斯·莫里森指出，当委员会提出这些事情时，它们是一个更大计划的一部分，其中还包括这些共和党人不支持的事情。
And beyond that, Barbara Jordan's whole political vision was proudly about compromise and finding common ground.
除此之外，芭芭拉·乔丹的整个政治愿景是关于妥协和寻找共同点。
It's jarring to see her being cited by partisans as part of a bitter political war.
看到她被游击队称为一场激烈的政治战争的一部分，真是令人震惊。
Meanwhile on immigration, the Democrats seem to have left the playing field.
与此同时，在移民问题上，民主党似乎已经退出了竞争舞台。
In the midterms, a common strategy for lots of candidates was to stick to the stuff that wasn't controversial like the Dreamers and then change the subject to health care.
在中期选举中，许多候选人的共同策略是坚持选择像梦想家这样没有争议的内容，然后将主题改为医疗保健。
The truth is, I'd counted on Barbara preaching my funeral.
事实是，我指望芭芭拉在我的葬礼上宣讲。
She always did make things sound a lot better than they were.
她总是让事情听起来比实际情况要好得多。
This is one of her good friends, former Texas Governor Ann Richards, speaking at her funeral in Houston.
这是她的好朋友之一、前德克萨斯州州长安·理查兹在休斯敦举行的她的葬礼上发表的讲话。
They used to go to Lady Longhorns basketball games together.
他们曾经一起去看长角夫人篮球比赛。
And now if we're going to be honest we have to say that there were some people who managed to resist Barbara's persuasive manner.
现在，如果我们要诚实的话，我们不得不说，有些人成功地抵制了芭芭拉的说服方式。
When I was a county commissioner, Barbara was building her house out in the country down at the end of a narrow little tree-shaded lane.
当我担任县专员时，芭芭拉正在乡下一条狭窄的绿树成荫的小巷尽头建造她的房子。
And it was about--
这是关于——
Richards said it was about a mile long, and there was a woman who owned some property in the middle of it.
理查兹说，这条河大约一英里长，中间有一个女人拥有一些财产。
And this woman, she put a gate across the lane and padlocked it.
而这个女人，她在巷子对面放了一扇门，并上了锁。
And it may be hard to imagine Barbara really hopping mad but she was.
也许很难想象芭芭拉真的会生气，但她确实生气了。
And she called me up and she said, Ann!
她打电话给我，她说，安！
Ann!
安！
This old woman has put a gate across my lane and the lane is used by everyone.
这位老妇人在我的巷子上加了一道门，这条巷子供所有人使用。
And I want that gate down.
我希望把那扇门关掉。
And years later I was going out to the house for a party and I thought about that old woman.
几年后，当我去家里参加一个聚会时，我想起了那个老妇人。
And so I said Barbara, whatever happened to that old woman?
所以我说芭芭拉，那个老妇人怎么了？
And Barbara suppressed a smile and got that voice of the Lord inflection in her speech, and she said, well, Ann, that old woman died and went to hell.
芭芭拉抑制住微笑，在她的演讲中得到了主的声音，她说，好吧，安，那个老妇人死了，去了地狱。
And that's pretty much how it went with Barbara.
芭芭拉的情况也差不多如此。
If reasoning didn't work, and prodding didn't work, and the law didn't work, divine intervention was bound to just overcome whatever.
如果推理不起作用，刺激不起作用，法律不起作用，那么神圣的干预必然会克服一切。
To fix the situation we are in now with immigration feels like it might actually require divine intervention.
要解决我们现在面临的移民问题，感觉实际上可能需要神圣的干预。
Things are way more complicated now than they were in the '90s.
现在的情况比 90 年代复杂得多。
For starters, the undocumented population has gotten a lot bigger.
首先，无证人口数量已经大幅增加。
It's gone from 3 million to 11 million.
从300万增加到1100万。
It's no longer mostly single young men crossing back and forth across the border.
来回跨境的不再主要是单身年轻人。
We now have families who've been living here for a full generation, who've raised children.
现在，我们的家庭已经在这里生活了整整一代人，养育了孩子。
And as Barbara Jordan always feared, immigrants now get blamed for all sorts of problems.
正如芭芭拉·乔丹一直担心的那样，移民现在因各种问题而受到指责。
We're now in a situation she never anticipated.
我们现在正处于她从未预料到的境地。
The problem today is much worse than anything she'd ever imagined.
今天的问题比她想象的要严重得多。
And the two parties are so much further apart.
而且两党的差距实在是太大了。
They listen to each other so much less.
他们互相倾听的次数少了很多。
It's hard to picture how even Barbara Jordan could get much done.
很难想象即使是芭芭拉乔丹也能取得如此大的成就。
Miki Meek is one of the producers of our show.
米基·米克是我们节目的制作人之一。
Thanks to the other members of the Jordan commission we talked to, Bob Hill, Lindsey Lowell, Nelson Merced, Warren Leiden, and Paul Donnelly.
感谢我们采访过的乔丹委员会的其他成员，鲍勃·希尔、林赛·洛厄尔、纳尔逊·默塞德、沃伦·莱顿和保罗·唐纳利。
Many fear the future, many are distrustful of their leaders, and believe that their voices are never heard.
许多人担心未来，许多人不信任他们的领导人，并认为他们的声音从未被听到。
This is Barbara Jordan speaking in a very divisive time just a couple of years after President Nixon's impeachment hearings and Vietnam at the Democratic National Convention.
这是芭芭拉·乔丹在尼克松总统弹劾听证会和民主党全国代表大会上的越南战争发生几年后的一个非常分裂的时期发表的讲话。
But a spirit of harmony will survive in America only if each of us remembers that we share a common destiny, if each of us remembers when self-interest and bitterness seem to prevail, that we share a common destiny.
但是，只有当我们每个人都记住我们有着共同的命运，只有当我们每个人都在自私和痛苦似乎盛行时记住我们有着共同的命运，和谐精神才能在美国生存。
We are a generous people, so why can't we be generous with each other?
我们是一个慷慨的民族，为什么我们不能彼此慷慨呢？
But this is the great danger America faces, that we will cease to be one nation, and become instead a collection of interest groups-- city against suburb, region against region, individual against individual, each seeking to satisfy private wants.
但这就是美国面临的巨大危险，我们将不再是一个国家，而是成为一个利益集团的集合体——城市对抗郊区、地区对抗地区、个人对抗个人，每个集团都试图满足私人需求。
If that happens, who then will speak for America?
如果发生这种情况，谁来为美国说话呢？
Who then will speak for the common good?
那么谁会为共同利益发声呢？
Coming up, your ex-wife has a few thoughts about your marriage and she makes a movie about it.
接下来，你的前妻对你们的婚姻有一些想法，她为此拍了一部电影。
That does not sound like that's going to be a good experience for you.
这听起来对你来说并不是一次好的经历。
That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台稍后将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, Before Things Went To Hell, stories of the moment before things went terribly wrong back when things could've turned out differently, but of course they didn't.
今天的节目《事情走向地狱之前》讲述了事情发生严重错误之前那一刻的故事，当时事情本来可以有不同的结果，但当然事实并非如此。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program-- Act Two, Director's Cut.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕——第二幕，导演剪辑版。
So the person in this next story finds himself in a situation that not many of us are ever going to be in.
因此，下一个故事中的人发现自己处于我们大多数人都不会遇到的境地。
His ex-wife decided to revisit the part of their lives before their marriage went to hell and make a movie about it-- or anyway, about a couple whose life seems very, very parallel to theirs in lots of ways.
他的前妻决定在他们的婚姻陷入困境之前重新审视他们的生活，并拍一部关于这部电影的电影——或者无论如何，关于一对生活在很多方面与他们的生活非常相似的夫妇的电影。
This fictional couple gets married real young, they're trying to make it in LA, the woman gets a big break, she leaves the husband at that point.
这对虚构的夫妇很年轻就结婚了，他们试图在洛杉矶实现这一目标，女人得到了很大的突破，那时她离开了丈夫。
This all happened in real life, too.
这一切也发生在现实生活中。
The guy's name is Will Weldon.
这个人的名字叫威尔·韦尔登。
Elna Baker explains what happened next.
埃尔娜·贝克解释了接下来发生的事情。
Will heard about the movie from some friends when his ex-wife started working on it.
当威尔的前妻开始拍摄这部电影时，他从一些朋友那里听说了这部电影。
The very thought of it made him anxious.
一想到这个，他就感到焦虑。
His ex, Rebecca, eventually brought it up with him.
他的前任丽贝卡最终向他提起了这件事。
She said the film was only loosely based on their marriage, which definitely did not help.
她说这部电影只是松散地基于他们的婚姻，这绝对没有帮助。
He tried to put it out of his head.
他试图把它从脑海中抹去。
A year and a half later, he was scrolling around on-line.
一年半后，他开始在网上浏览。
And I saw on Facebook people posting the trailer for the movie and being like, hey, go see this movie if it's in a theater near you because it's made by Rebecca Adelman, and she's great, and so funny.
我在 Facebook 上看到人们发布了这部电影的预告片，然后说，嘿，如果你附近的剧院有的话，就去看这部电影吧，因为它是丽贝卡·阿德尔曼制作的，她很棒，也很有趣。
And I saw those popping up.
我看到那些突然出现。
And then I just had this moment where I was like, oh, the moment is here.
然后我就在这一刻觉得，哦，这一刻就在这里。
And that was when I was filled with the most dread.
那是我内心充满最恐惧的时候。
What were those thoughts?
那些想法是什么？
Will For me I was-- the thing I was the most afraid of is that the movie would portray me accurately.
威尔 对于我来说——我最害怕的就是电影会准确地描绘我。
Will's candid about his flaws, admits he was kind of a dud as a husband.
威尔坦诚地承认自己的缺点，承认自己作为丈夫有点不合格。
Will and Rebecca met when she was 23.
威尔和丽贝卡在她 23 岁时相识。
He was just 19.
他当时才 19 岁。
They were together for eight years, married for almost five.
他们在一起八年了，结婚也快五年了。
During that time he was mostly unemployed, though he eventually started doing part time work, walking dogs and house sitting.
在那段时间里，他大部分时间都处于失业状态，不过他最终开始做兼职工作、遛狗和看家。
He did some stand-up, but not very often.
他做了一些单口喜剧，但并不经常。
Mostly he'd spend his time--
大多数时候他会花时间——
Like refreshing Gawker, or I was playing Playstation, or I was like, literally just sitting there thinking about how I should be doing something.
就像刷新 Gawker，或者我在玩 Playstation，或者我就像，只是坐在那里思考我应该如何做某事。
I wasn't really-- I had no actual goals and I wasn't striving for anything.
我并不是真的——我没有真正的目标，也没有为任何事情奋斗。
That was, like, I think the defining quality that, like, ended our marriage.
我认为这就是结束我们婚姻的决定性品质。
Because she was the ambitious one and disciplined.
因为她是一位雄心勃勃且自律的人。
She wanted to be a TV writer.
她想成为一名电视作家。
She'd wake up early to work on scripts and when he watched the trailer, that was in it.
她很早就起床写剧本，当他看到预告片时，剧本就在里面了。
And she is the harder worker and, like, actually wants things.
她工作更努力，而且实际上想要一些东西。
Woo!
哇！
My wife is the smartest woman in the world!
我的妻子是世界上最聪明的女人！
Look how awesome she is!
看看她多棒啊！
We're going to be rich.
我们会变得富有。
Can I get a Nintendo?
我可以买任天堂吗？
Seeing the trailer made it so much worse.
看到预告片让情况变得更糟。
Now he realized the film would probably return him to some very painful times he'd rather not relive, like the way their marriage ended.
现在他意识到这部电影可能会让他回到一些他不想重温的非常痛苦的时刻，就像他们婚姻结束的方式一样。
To me at the time, it really felt like it came out of nowhere.
对当时的我来说，真的感觉它是凭空而来的。
She got home from work, and she just had, like, a very, very strange-- like, you know the way people will start-- like, they'll be like, so.
她下班回家，她只是有一种非常非常奇怪的感觉，你知道人们会如何开始，他们会这样。
And then she sat me down, and she was just telling me about how she was unhappy in the relationship, and she had been for a long time.
然后她让我坐下，她只是告诉我她对这段关系感到多么不开心，而且她已经这样很长时间了。
And then me being like, gee, I just-- I don't know why this hasn't-- why none of this has come up before.
然后我就想，哎呀，我只是——我不知道为什么没有——为什么以前没有出现过这些。
I just loved her and I didn't-- I really felt like we should try and give it another chance.
我只是爱她，但我不爱她——我真的觉得我们应该再给一次机会。
And she was like, mm, I don't know.
她说，嗯，我不知道。
And at a certain point we were talking and I was like, who are we fooling here?
在我们谈话的某个时刻，我就想，我们在这里愚弄谁？
It really seems like you're done, and this is done.
看起来你真的已经完成了，这件事已经完成了。
And she was like, OK.
她说，好吧。
Will moved out after just a week, started crashing on friends' couches.
仅仅一周后，威尔就搬了出去，开始在朋友的沙发上过夜。
He was devastated, didn't understand what went wrong.
他很沮丧，不明白出了什么问题。
And there were other scenes from their lives that he'd hate to see in a movie.
他们生活中的其他场景是他不愿意在电影中看到的。
I'm sure there will be conversations with like, her mom, or her sister, and her friends.
我确信将会与她的妈妈、姐姐和她的朋友进行对话。
I don't know if they were like, come on, girl, you got to dump him.
我不知道他们是否会说，来吧，女孩，你必须甩掉他。
Those will probably be the toughest parts, because I imagine those will be things that will be very based in reality.
这些可能是最困难的部分，因为我想这些将是非常基于现实的事情。
The film, which is called Paper Year, came out in early 2018.
这部名为《纸年》的电影于 2018 年初上映。
It's got 71% on Rotten Tomatoes.
烂番茄上的评分为 71%。
Critics comment on how authentic the couple's love coming undone feels.
评论家评论说这对夫妇的爱情即将破裂的感觉是多么真实。
For a while, Will couldn't bring himself to see it but a month ago he suggested we watch it together, and I was into the idea.
有一段时间，威尔无法让自己去看它，但一个月前他建议我们一起看，我也同意了这个想法。
I'm going through a divorce right now.
我现在正在办理离婚手续。
It's a very strange time of life.
这是生命中非常奇怪的时期。
I go on a lot of long walks.
我经常进行长途散步。
I stopped watching television for a year so I wouldn't avoid my feelings.
我已经停止看电视一年了，这样我就不会回避自己的感受。
All I read are self-help books.
我读的都是自助书籍。
And when I go to parties, I corner divorced people and badger them for details about what this was like for them and how they got through it.
当我去参加聚会时，我会把离婚的人逼到角落，缠着他们详细询问他们的情况以及他们是如何度过的。
Divorce is like my own personal disaster porn.
离婚就像我自己的个人灾难色情片。
So, watching a movie about a divorce with the person who it happened to, it's all I want to do.
所以，看一部关于与离婚对象离婚的电影，这就是我想做的一切。
And Will thought it would make it easier for him to see it for the first time.
威尔认为这会让他第一次看到它时更容易。
Like, this is a better way to view it, with other people than just, like, it's 3:00 in the morning, I'm alone, the lights are off, I've gotten up in secret and I'm like, watching it in the middle of the night so I can just deny having ever seen it if I want to.
就像，这是一个更好的方式来观看它，与其他人一起，而不是，就像，凌晨 3:00，我独自一人，灯灭了，我秘密地起床，我想，在半夜观看它，所以如果我愿意的话，我可以否认曾经看过它。
Hi, puppy!
嗨，小狗！
I met Will where he was staying.
我在威尔住的地方遇见了他。
He's dog sitting at a sleek Los Angeles home overlooking a canyon-- Furry throw pillows, an open layout, pomegranate and lemon trees framing your view of the valley, all really expensive.
他的狗坐在洛杉矶一栋时尚的家中，俯瞰着峡谷——毛茸茸的抱枕，开放式的布局，石榴树和柠檬树构成了山谷的景色，所有这些都非常昂贵。
Will is on high alert.
威尔处于高度戒备状态。
Anytime I move anything, he is careful to put it back exactly where it had been.
每当我移动任何东西时，他都会小心地将它放回原来的位置。
The movie opens with the couple, Dan and Franny, getting married in a courthouse, which Will and Rebecca also did.
电影以丹和弗兰妮夫妇在法院举行婚礼开始，威尔和丽贝卡也这样做了。
Dan lifts Franny and carries her out.
丹抱起弗兰妮，带她出去。
The couple starts out really in love-- having lots of sex, laughing, kissing in bed.
这对夫妇一开始是真正相爱的——有很多性行为、大笑、在床上接吻。
I never had a rash.
我从来没有出过皮疹。
There's no rash.
没有皮疹。
I don't know what they're talking about.
我不知道他们在说什么。
He's quite the rascal, aren't you?
他真是个无赖，不是吗？
Yeah, he's a good boy.
是的，他是个好孩子。
Wait, can I just point out the dog that you're house sitting in this movie is literally the same breed of dog that is sitting under the table right now?
等等，我可以指出这部电影中你家的狗和现在坐在桌子底下的狗实际上是同一品种吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It's like a Jack Russell chihuahua mix that he's dog sitting and I am also dog sitting a Jack Russell chihuahua mix.
这就像杰克罗素吉娃娃混种狗，他在照顾狗，我也在照顾杰克罗素吉娃娃混种狗。
In fact, the house in the film where Dan and Franny do their dog sitting is a lot like the house Will and I are sitting in at this very moment-- similar layout and decor, same view.
事实上，电影中丹和弗兰妮遛狗的房子很像我和威尔此刻所坐的房子——相似的布局和装饰，相同的景色。
This comes from-- Franny No, I want to finish this.
这来自——弗兰妮 不，我想完成这个。
In another scene, Franny is sitting at her computer working on a script.
在另一个场景中，弗兰妮坐在电脑前写剧本。
Dan is trying to get her attention.
丹试图引起她的注意。
It's just you writing for your dumb job.
这只是你在为你的愚蠢工作而写作。
Come on, swim.
来吧，游泳。
Swim.
游泳。
Later.
之后。
Elna Baker The real life version of this would actually play out a little differently-- less fun and more sad.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）现实生活中的情况实际上会有所不同——更少乐趣，更多悲伤。
Will says he'd do everything he could to get out of her way when she was working.
威尔说，当她工作时，他会尽一切努力不妨碍她。
I would just, like, disappear.
我只想消失。
Like, I'd like, wheel the TV into the bedroom and watch it in there just so it wouldn't be distracting.
就像，我想把电视推到卧室里并在那里观看，这样就不会分散注意力。
The movie, which I'll admit I'm the target audience for, I liked it.
我承认我是这部电影的目标观众，我喜欢它。
Marriage made Franny unhappy in the same way it made me unhappy, like my life had ended.
婚姻让弗兰妮不快乐，就像它让我不快乐一样，就像我的生命结束了一样。
I spent so much time thinking about whether or not I wanted to be with my husband, but I couldn't tell him that.
我花了很多时间思考我是否想和我的丈夫在一起，但我不能告诉他。
So we had nothing to talk about, because if he asked me what I was thinking, the real answer would have been, I'm not sure if I love you anymore.
所以我们没什么可谈的，因为如果他问我在想什么，真正的答案是，我不确定我是否还爱你。
The scene that Will feared of Franny confiding in her mom and friends about all her husband's terrible qualities, and everyone's saying what they really think of him-- that never happens.
威尔害怕弗兰妮向她的妈妈和朋友吐露她丈夫所有可怕的品质，而每个人都说出他们对他的真实想法的场景——这从未发生过。
There's no scene where anyone badmouths him.
没有任何场景有人说他坏话。
None at all.
一点也没有。
No one tells anyone to dump the loser.
没有人告诉任何人抛弃失败者。
Instead, what happens is much more interesting.
相反，发生的事情要有趣得多。
Late in the film, Franny sits down to talk to her mom about her marriage.
在电影的最后，弗兰妮坐下来和她妈妈谈论她的婚姻。
In the scene, she's trying to convince herself to stay with him.
在场景中，她试图说服自己留在他身边。
Will sits forward in his seat.
威尔坐在座位上靠前的位置。
The day his marriage fell apart, Will came home and Rebecca was on the couch crying.
婚姻破裂的那天，威尔回到家，丽贝卡坐在沙发上哭泣。
She said she'd been talking to her mom but he never knew what their conversation was about.
她说她一直在和她妈妈说话，但她妈妈从来不知道他们的谈话内容。
He felt like he was getting to see it now.
他感觉自己现在就要亲眼目睹了。
In the scene, Franny, played by Eve Hewson, talks to her mom, played by Andie MacDowell.
在场景中，伊芙·休森饰演的弗兰妮与安迪·麦克道威尔饰演的妈妈交谈。
Maybe it's just like, the first year of marriage is the hardest, you know, like that old saying?
也许就像那句老话一样，结婚的第一年是最艰难的，你知道吗？
And like, in a few years we'll look back on it and laugh.
就像，几年后我们回顾起来会大笑。
Baby, look at me.
宝贝，看着我。
That saying's bullshit.
这句话就是胡说八道。
The first year should be your best.
第一年应该是你最好的一年。
It wasn't none of us will stick around, because it only gets harder.
并不是我们都不会留下来，因为它只会变得更加困难。
Much harder.
困难得多。
It's-- it's just like seeing how upset she is, that like, sucks.
这——就像看到她有多沮丧一样，太糟糕了。
She like, felt really bad.
她喜欢，感觉真的很糟糕。
Like, this is just a bad feeling for someone to have to go through.
就像，这对某人来说只是一种必须经历的不好的感觉。
Well, it's just-- I don't think I was incorrect to focus on my own struggles during the whole process of splitting up.
嗯，只是——我不认为我在分手的整个过程中专注于自己的挣扎是不对的。
But it did kind of prevent me from like, thinking about hers as well.
但这确实阻止了我思考她的事情。
I just didn't have as much of an appreciation for like, the difficulty of it, the like, misery that goes into that choice.
我只是没有那么多的欣赏它的困难，以及这种选择所带来的痛苦。
It also is a little bit of a relief that it was hard for her.
这对她来说很难，这也让她松了一口气。
If it had been very easy for her to end things, I would've felt like such absolute trash.
如果她能轻易结束这一切，我会觉得自己就是个十足的垃圾。
If just one day she'd come home and been like, you know what?
如果有一天她回家后会说，你知道吗？
Not for me.
不适合我。
Bye, pal.
再见，朋友。
But that's the story you've kind of been telling yourself.
但这就是你一直在给自己讲的故事。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Elna Baker For years, Will had been telling himself the same version of their breakup, something he'd sandpapered down into this.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker） 多年来，威尔一直在告诉自己关于他们分手的同一个版本，他用砂纸打磨了这一点。
Rebecca got her big break and then she dumped him out of the blue.
丽贝卡获得了重大突破，然后突然甩掉了他。
He was heartbroken, she was happy and thriving.
他伤心欲绝，她却幸福快乐。
Moving on was easy for her.
继续前进对她来说很容易。
But watching this, it came flooding back-- at least a year, maybe more, when Rebecca was sad before their breakup.
但看到这一幕，这种感觉又涌了上来——至少一年，也许更久，丽贝卡在分手前感到悲伤的时候。
It was like time traveling through all this pain that he'd deleted from his memory.
就好像时间穿越了他从记忆中删除的所有这些痛苦。
We asked Rebecca to come talk about her movie with Will.
我们邀请丽贝卡和威尔谈论她的电影。
She met us at the house where Will was house sitting.
她在威尔主持的房子里遇见了我们。
It's a little awkward.
有点尴尬。
They talk about the weather and traffic.
他们谈论天气和交通。
In the six years since their marriage ended, they've never had a conversation about it.
自从他们的婚姻结束后的六年里，他们从未谈论过这件事。
And for her, understandably, this did not seem like the best way to begin one, by talking about her movie.
对她来说，可以理解的是，这似乎不是开始谈论她的电影的最佳方式。
You know it has-- and I mean this in a certain sense, it has nothing to do with Will.
你知道它有——我的意思是在某种意义上，它与威尔无关。
It's its own movie.
这是它自己的电影。
And it's not a documentary.
这不是一部纪录片。
So I kind of object to the idea that we're going to read into this movie and we're going to use it as some kind of, like, secret code to understand this real life relationship that existed.
所以我有点反对这样的想法：我们将解读这部电影，并将其用作某种秘密代码来理解现实生活中存在的关系。
But also, I feel like, the way you're saying it, it's like, oh, I just made a movie.
而且，我觉得，按照你所说的方式，就像，哦，我刚刚拍了一部电影。
It was just a movie.
这只是一部电影。
Why are you reading into this movie?
你为什么读这部电影？
But I feel like there are-- it's more specifically related to an experience that you had.
但我觉得有——它更具体地与你的经历有关。
Sure.
当然。
But I'm not, you know-- I'm not the first person to do such a thing.
但我不是，你知道——我不是第一个做这种事的人。
He had to be a dog walker.
他必须是一名遛狗者。
Rebecca Well, but--
丽贝卡 好吧，但是——
I said that's why I knew.
我说这就是我知道的原因。
I was like, he's going to dog sit and he's going to have no ambition.
我当时想，他会坐下来，他不会有野心。
Yeah.
是的。
I also, I guess I always thought of that character as not someone without ambition, but someone who is afraid.
我也，我想我一直认为这个角色不是一个没有野心的人，而是一个害怕的人。
And I'm not-- that's not me, like, looking at you going like, that's really who you are.
我不是——那不是我，就像，看着你，那才是真正的你。
Will tells Rebecca what he told me, how the most emotional part of the movie was seeing her side of things, how hard it was for her to decide to break apart and then to finally do it.
威尔告诉丽贝卡他告诉我的事情，电影中最激动人心的部分是如何看到她的一面，对她来说决定分手然后最终做到这一点是多么困难。
It felt bad because it was just her trying to justify not ending it, or trying to convince herself, like, it'll get better.
这感觉很糟糕，因为这只是她试图为不结束它辩护，或者试图说服自己，比如，事情会变得更好。
And that was like, a very emotional thing for me, and the most affecting part of the movie, like hard to watch.
这对我来说是一件非常情绪化的事情，也是电影中最感人的部分，就像很难看一样。
Is it because it reminded you of that last sort of big conversation we had that was emotional?
是因为它让你想起我们最后一次充满感情的大型谈话吗？
It felt bad because it reminded me of like, you having to do, yourself, kind of all of the recognizing of the problems in the relationship.
这感觉很糟糕，因为它让我想起，你必须自己做，所有认识到关系中的问题。
I just hadn't ever considered the like, journey to coming to that point, and that conclusion, and like, how difficult it is to do that.
我只是从未考虑过类似的事情，到达这一点的旅程，以及那个结论，以及做到这一点有多么困难。
That's clear, right?
这很清楚，对吧？
That make sense?
这有道理吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
I mean, is this now like, the part of the show where we just talk about our break up?
我的意思是，这就是节目中我们谈论分手的部分吗？
Do you want me to respond?
你想让我回应吗？
Yeah, I mean, I don't really want to get into it, but that was a really tough period, and those were really, kind of like, weirdly dark, confusing times.
是的，我的意思是，我真的不想参与其中，但那是一段非常艰难的时期，那真的是，有点像，奇怪的黑暗、混乱的时期。
And I think that's why I wrote this.
我想这就是我写这篇文章的原因。
It wasn't like I was trying to write this so you would understand something.
我写这篇文章并不是为了让你明白一些事情。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Rebecca I was doing it so that I could understand something.
丽贝卡 我这样做是为了能理解一些事情。
I feel like-- so, I mean, I obviously relate to this because I'm going through a divorce.
我觉得——所以，我的意思是，我显然对此有感触，因为我正在经历离婚。
I left my husband a year ago and--
一年前我离开了我的丈夫并且——
Oh, more personal info.
哦，更多个人信息。
My marriage seems really similar to theirs.
我的婚姻看起来和他们的很相似。
My husband was mostly unemployed.
我丈夫大部分时间都失业了。
I was the one who is working all the time.
我是那个一直在工作的人。
Neither of us were happy and I had to be the one to call
我们俩都不高兴，我必须是那个打电话的人
--I sort of knew.
——我好像知道了。
And I have to say, I wish he would give me credit, you know?
我不得不说，我希望他能给我信任，你知道吗？
Like, it was really awful and hard and heartbreaking and I was tormented by it and it was the hardest decision I've ever made.
就像，这真的很糟糕、艰难、令人心碎，我被它折磨着，这是我做过的最艰难的决定。
And I would just-- like, this is my dream realization that my partner could ever have, which is to say, like, oh, my god.
我会——就像，这是我的伴侣可以实现的梦想，也就是说，就像，哦，天啊。
It was hard for you, too.
这对你来说也很难。
Like, are you getting that?
就像，你明白吗？
Are you getting-- am I like, projecting?
你有没有像我一样在预测？
No, I mean--
不，我的意思是——
It's just, we've been broken up for how long now?
只是，我们已经分手多久了？
It's over six years.
已经六年多了。
Rebecca Yeah.
丽贝卡 是的。
I mean, and I haven't been spending much of that time going, thinking, oh, I hope Will understands my perspective some day.
我的意思是，我并没有花太多时间思考，哦，我希望有一天威尔能理解我的观点。
You know, I think I've just-- I think it's really nice that maybe there is some kind of mutual middle ground that we're seeing it from.
你知道，我想我只是——我认为这真的很好，也许我们可以从中看到某种共同的中间立场。
But I think that I've just-- it was OK for me to let Will have his own path through it.
但我认为我——让威尔走自己的路是可以的。
Will had a story of how things ended that was cemented in his mind, and without the film he would have gone on thinking it, cherry picking the moments that made him feel the worst.
威尔有一个关于事情如何结束的故事，深深地印在他的脑海里，如果没有这部电影，他会继续思考这个故事，挑选那些让他感觉最糟糕的时刻。
Rebecca says if you want your ex to understand your breakup, the best way probably isn't to make a movie about it.
丽贝卡说，如果你想让你的前任理解你的分手，最好的方法可能不是拍一部关于这件事的电影。
It's way too much work and money and the most likely outcome is that they'll hate you for it.
这是太多的工作和金钱，最有可能的结果是他们会因此而恨你。
Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Our show was produced today by Elna Baker.
今天我们的节目由埃尔娜·贝克制作。
People who worked on the show include Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Aviva DeKornfeld, Stephanie Foo, Damien Gray, Michelle Harris, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Anna Martin, Miki Meeks, Stone Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Robyn Semien, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
参与该剧的人员包括 Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Aviva DeKornfeld、Stephanie Foo、Damien Gray、Michelle Harris、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Anna Martin、Miki Meeks、Stone Nelson、Nadia Raymond、Robyn Semien、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our managing editor is Susan Burton.
我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿。
Special thanks today Bud Meyers and Alvin Melathe.
今天特别感谢巴德·迈耶斯和阿尔文·梅拉西。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 600 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, I was short on money for lunch the other day.
你知道，前几天我午饭钱缺钱。
And I said, Torey, you have any cash?
我说，托里，你有现金吗？
Do you have cash?
你有现金吗？
He got really defensive.
他真的很防守。
I never had a rash.
我从来没有出过皮疹。
There's no rash.
没有皮疹。
I don't know what they're talking about.
我不知道他们在说什么。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories at This American Life.
下周我们将在《美国生活》中讲述更多故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。