662: Where There Is a Will - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #662 | November 16, 2018 662: Where There Is a Will Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 662 集 | 2018 年 11 月 16 日 662：有遗嘱的地方 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass My friend Etgar, his mom does not take no for an answer.

序言：序言 Ira Glass 我的朋友 Etgar，他的妈妈不会接受“不”的回答。

Etgar's Israeli.

埃特加是以色列人。

Etgar Keret, we run his short stories here on the radio show now and then.

Etgar Keret，我们时不时地在广播节目中播放他的短篇小说。

Anyway, years ago, Etgar's older brother was in the army serving in Lebanon.

无论如何，多年前，埃特加的哥哥在黎巴嫩服役。

Israel had just invaded Lebanon.

以色列刚刚入侵黎巴嫩。

It was war.

那是战争。

And it sounds incredible to us, but the policy of the Israeli army is that if it's at all possible, you go home on leave every two weeks.

这对我们来说听起来令人难以置信，但以色列军队的政策是，如果可能的话，你每两周就回家一次。

And Lebanon's close, just next door to Israel.

黎巴嫩离以色列很近，就在隔壁。

Etgar says his brother was coming home every month.

埃特加说他的兄弟每个月都会回家。

And then that stopped.

然后就停止了。

He wasn't getting any leave.

他没有请假。

And my brother didn't come home for almost two months, and it drove my mother crazy.

而我弟弟已经快两个月没有回家了，这让我妈妈抓狂了。

And she decided that she should get my brother back home.

她决定让我弟弟回家。

And it's very difficult to deal with anything during the war, because everybody is hysterical and crazy.

战争期间处理任何事情都非常困难，因为每个人都歇斯底里、疯狂。

But she decided that she needs to speak to the chief of staff.

但她决定需要与幕僚长谈谈。

And she started calling--

她开始打电话——

And the chief of staff is the head of the army?

而参谋长就是陆军总长？

Etgar explained her strategy was simple.

埃特加解释说她的策略很简单。

She'd call the guy's office, talk to whoever answered.

她会打电话给那个人的办公室，与接电话的人交谈。

And she would talk for long enough until she would have something that she could say offended her or made her angry.

她会说足够长的时间，直到她说出一些她可以说冒犯了她或让她生气的事情。

And then she asked to speak with that person's superior.

然后她要求和那个人的上级谈谈。

She did the same thing with that person and then that person's superior.

她对那个人做了同样的事情，然后对那个人的上级做了同样的事情。

And so on and on and on and on.

等等等等。

And in the end, she found herself speaking to the head general, Rafael Eitan, who is one of Israel's most famous kind of war heroes.

最后，她发现自己正在与总司令拉斐尔·埃坦交谈，他是以色列最著名的战争英雄之一。

And she said to him, listen, General Eitan, I know that you're fighting a war.

她对他说，听着，艾坦将军，我知道你正在打一场战争。

And I really don't want to waste any of your time, so I will make it simple.

我真的不想浪费你的时间，所以我会让它变得简单。

My son didn't get a leave from the army for the past two months.

我儿子已经两个月没有请假了。

I give you 24 hours to send him back home.

我给你24小时送他回家。

If you know what's good for you, he'll be back before tomorrow evening.

如果你知道什么对你有好处，他明天晚上之前就会回来。

Yeah.

是的。

And the guy says to her, I just want to understand, Mrs. Keret.

那家伙对她说，我只是想了解，凯雷特夫人。

Are you threatening me?

你在威胁我吗？

And she says, yes, I am.

她说，是的，我是。

I'm threatening you.

我在威胁你。

And I didn't want to put it in the subtext, because I know that you're busy.

我不想把它放在潜台词中，因为我知道你很忙。

So if you know what's good for you, you'll send my son back home.

所以如果你知道什么对你有好处，你就会送我儿子回家。

And he says to her, Mrs. Keret, do you know who I am?

他对她说，凯雷特夫人，你知道我是谁吗？

And she said, yeah, you're Rafael Eitan, the war hero.

她说，是的，你是拉斐尔·艾坦，战争英雄。

And he said to her, if you know anything about me, then you know that I'm not easily scared.

他对她说，如果你了解我，你就知道我不容易害怕。

So my mother said, yeah, but I don't think you had many chance to fight with elderly Holocaust survivors, who are 5 foot tall and weigh 82 pounds.

所以我母亲说，是的，但我认为你没有太多机会与年长的大屠杀幸存者战斗，他们身高 5 英尺，体重 82 磅。

And I want to tell you something, and I'll make it very simple and very quick.

我想告诉你一些事情，我会让它变得非常简单和快速。

After you quit the army, you either go to politics or you go to the free market.

退伍后，你要么从政，要么进入自由市场。

In both cases, you're going to be very exposed.

在这两种情况下，你都会非常暴露。

In both cases, every time, there'll be a TV camera around or journalist.

在这两种情况下，每次都会有电视摄像机或记者。

You'll have this elderly lady sitting in the first row, shouting at you, accusing you of any bad things that you might have made and maybe of some bad things that you've never made.

你会看到这位老太太坐在第一排，对你大喊大叫，指责你可能做过的任何坏事，也许还有一些你从未做过的坏事。

Because I'm a very good liar.

因为我是一个非常擅长说谎的人。

And you really don't want that.

而你真的不希望这样。

And at that stage, he hung up the phone in her face.

就在这个时候，他当着她的面挂断了电话。

The next afternoon, Etgar's brother arrived home.

第二天下午，埃特加的哥哥回到家。

So they pulled him out of his ranks, told him to get on a helicopter.

于是他们把他从队伍中拉了出来，让他登上直升机。

He had no idea what was going on, nor did anybody else.

他不知道发生了什么，其他人也不知道。

He assumed some family member died or something, Etgar says.

埃特加说，他假设某个家庭成员去世了或者发生了什么事。

And he got his break.

他得到了休息。

He came and took a shower, slept for 16 hours.

他来了，洗了个澡，睡了16个小时。

My mother saw that he was OK.

我妈妈看到他没事。

And a day after that, he went back to Lebanon.

一天后，他回到黎巴嫩。

I should say, we cannot confirm the details of this story, including the dialogue between Etgar's mom and Rafael Eitan.

应该说，我们无法确认这个故事的细节，包括埃特加的妈妈和拉斐尔·埃坦之间的对话。

This happened over 30 years ago.

这件事发生在30多年前。

Eitan's dead.

艾坦死了。

When we got Etgar's mom, she said, sure, whatever Etgar says.

当我们找到埃特加的妈妈时，她说，当然，无论埃特加说什么。

But there are many stories of Etgar's mom doing things like this.

但埃特加的妈妈做这样的事情的故事有很多。

There was a time she threatened a mugger so effectively that he abandoned the idea of mugging her in the middle of the mugging.

有一次，她有效地威胁了一名抢劫犯，以至于他在抢劫过程中放弃了抢劫她的想法。

There was a showdown with the president of Poland that ended when the president of Poland finally gave her the passport she demanded, as somebody who had been born in Poland.

与波兰总统的摊牌最终以她出生在波兰的身份给了她所要求的护照而结束。

Etgar is the same way in certain situations.

Etgar 在某些情况下也是如此。

He doesn't threaten.

他没有威胁。

That's not who he is.

他不是这样的人。

He just reasons people to death.

他只会劝人去死。

Case in point, a couple of years ago, he and his wife Shira and their then 8-year-old son, Lev, were traveling, and they left a backpack on an airplane.

举个例子，几年前，他和妻子 Shira 以及当时 8 岁的儿子 Lev 一起旅行，他们把一个背包落在了飞机上。

In the backpack was Etgar's iPad, which had all of his son's games on it.

背包里有 Etgar 的 iPad，上面有他儿子的所有游戏。

Lev had spent months on his games working his way up the levels of the games.

列夫花了几个月的时间在他的游戏上，努力提高游戏的水平。

Now, that was gone.

现在，那已经消失了。

Lev was really messed up about it.

列夫对此真的很困惑。

Any parent knows what I'm talking about.

任何家长都知道我在说什么。

And they called the airline.

他们给航空公司打电话。

The airline says, no problem.

航空公司说没问题。

When you get to the airport for the return flight, go to lost and found.

当您到达机场搭乘返程航班时，请前往失物招领处。

It'll be there.

它会在那里。

So comes the day.

就这样，这一天到来了。

They're on their way home.

他们正在回家的路上。

They get to the airport.

他们到达机场。

This is in Rome.

这是在罗马。

They can't find the lost and found.

他们找不到失物招领处。

Time is getting short.

时间越来越短了。

They've got a plane to catch.

他们有一架飞机要赶。

Finally, a guy at the car rental-- super nice guy-- offers to take them to it.

最后，汽车租赁公司的一个人——超级好人——主动提出带他们去。

His name was Massimo.

他的名字叫马西莫。

And he took us to the lost and found place, where there was this really, really nasty woman.

他带我们去了失物招领处，那里有一个非常非常讨厌的女人。

And I said to her, you know you have our bag.

我对她说，你知道你拿着我们的包。

And we're supposed to take it, and we're going to fly really soon.

我们应该接受它，我们很快就会飞翔。

I said to her, I can actually see it.

我对她说，我确实能看到。

And I pointed to the bag, because it was behind her.

我指着包，因为它就在她身后。

She says to Etgar, she needs a letter from the airline saying he was on the same flight as the backpack.

她对埃特加说，她需要航空公司的一封信，说明他与背包在同一航班上。

Etgar doesn't have this letter.

埃特加没有这封信。

She said, sir, I'm not going to give you the bag without the letter.

她说，先生，如果没有那封信，我不会把包给你。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

And I said to her, but I go to Israel.

我对她说，但我要去以色列。

I never get to see the bag.

我从来没有看到过这个包。

And she said, you know, that's your problem.

她说，你知道，那是你的问题。

As somebody who knows Etgar, I'll just say, wrong move.

作为了解 Etgar 的人，我只想说，这是错误的举动。

Something deep and powerful kicks in inside him.

某种深刻而有力的东西在他内心涌动。

My wife said to me, OK, let's go, so we won't miss the flight.

我妻子对我说，好吧，我们走吧，这样我们就不会错过航班了。

I said, no, just a moment.

我说，不用，等一下。

And I said to the woman, look, don't give me the bag, but just do this kind of thing.

我对那个女人说，听着，别把包给我，就做这种事吧。

Please, unzip the outside pocket of it, and see if there are crackers in it with a Hebrew writing on the package of crackers.

请拉开外面口袋的拉链，看看里面是否有饼干，饼干包装上有希伯来语字样。

And she said, why would you want to do that?

她说，你为什么要这么做？

I said to her, I just ask you to please do it.

我对她说，我只是请你这么做。

And she went and said, yeah, there are crackers in it.

她走过去说，是的，里面有饼干。

So I said to her, so we both agree that this is my bag?

于是我对她说，这样我们就都同意这是我的包了？

She says, yeah, this is your bag.

她说，是的，这是你的包。

So I said to her, so would you please give it to me?

于是我对她说，那你能把它给我吗？

She said, no, sir, I won't give it to you, unless you give me this letter.

她说，不，先生，我不会把它给你，除非你把这封信给我。

And I said to her, but you understand that my son is here, and his game is here.

我对她说，但是你明白，我的儿子在这里，他的比赛也在这里。

Are you a parent?

您是家长吗？

And she said, yes, I'm a parent.

她说，是的，我是一名家长。

And I said to her, so think about it.

我对她说，你考虑一下。

If your son had a game he really wanted to win, you had to go and confront with the person who said, yeah, I know this game is yours.

如果你的儿子真的想赢一场比赛，你就必须去面对那个说，是的，我知道这场比赛是你的人。

But your son is never going to get it just because of some kind of technicality.

但你的儿子永远不会因为某种技术问题而得到它。

You're Italian.

你是意大利人。

Be Italian.

是意大利人。

Be warm, be nice, be like in a Fellini movie.

热情、友善，就像费里尼电影中那样。

Give me the bag.

把包给我。

And she said, no, sir.

她说，不，先生。

I'm not going to give you the bag, and you're wasting your time.

我不会把包给你，你这是在浪费时间。

You better go to your flight, because you're going to miss your flight.

你最好赶上你的航班，因为你会错过你的航班。

And Shira said, let's go.

希拉说，我们走吧。

She isn't going to give it to you.

她不会把它给你。

And I said to her, but don't you understand, as a human being, there will be one day when you die, and you look back at your life, and you think about this day.

我对她说，但是你难道不明白吗，作为一个人，你会有一天死去，当你回顾你的一生时，你会想到这一天。

And when you think about this day, you'll think about this father who came with a child.

当你想到这一天时，你就会想到这位带着孩子来的父亲。

And basically, technically, you could solve all the problems, but you chose to stick with some kind of technicality.

基本上，从技术上讲，你可以解决所有问题，但你选择坚持某种技术性。

Would that be a nice dying thought to leave the world with?

带着这样的临终想法离开世界会是一个美好的想法吗？

And she was beginning to say, sir, I'm not going to give you anything.

她开始说，先生，我不会给你任何东西。

But as she was about to say that, Massimo, the guy from the car rental, jumped over the counter, picked up the bag.

但她正要这么说，租车公司的马西莫却跳过柜台，拿起了包。

And she said to him, what are you doing?

她对他说，你在做什么？

And he said to her, I can't take it anymore.

他对她说，我再也受不了了。

And he jumped back over the counter, and he gave me the bag.

他跳回柜台，把包给了我。

And she said to him, if you don't get the bag back, I'm going to call airport security, and they're going to arrest you.

她对他说，如果你不拿回包，我会打电话给机场保安，他们会逮捕你。

So I said to him, look, it's not a good solution.

所以我对他说，看，这不是一个好的解决方案。

Take the bag.

拿袋子。

And Massimo said to me, look at me.

马西莫对我说，看着我。

Do as I say.

按我说的做。

Run.

跑步。

These things happen so often that Etgar's wife, Shira, worries that someday, somebody is just going to go nuts on Etgar or something, hurt him.

这些事情发生得如此频繁，以至于埃特加的妻子希拉担心有一天，有人会对埃特加发疯或发生什么事情，伤害他。

There are situations when my wife just says to me, just shut up.

有时我的妻子只是对我说，闭嘴。

Shut up.

住口。

Shut up now.

现在闭嘴。

Don't talk about it anymore.

别再说了。

Shut up.

住口。

And I always listen to my wife.

而且我总是听我妻子的话。

But when it starts, I can't stop it.

但一旦开始，我就无法阻止。

But at the same time, I'll say to myself, I'm this asshole, who just keep arguing and doesn't move on.

但与此同时，我会对自己说，我就是这个混蛋，一直在争论，不继续前进。

And I really think that this has to do with something very kind of primal that when I was a little child, my parents were both Holocaust survivors.

我真的认为这与一些非常原始的事情有关，当我还是个小孩子的时候，我的父母都是大屠杀的幸存者。

They kind of raised me to say people are good.

他们从小就教育我说人都是善良的。

But sometimes, they don't get it that they're good.

但有时，他们并不知道自己很好。

So you have to kind of tell them things a few times, maybe slap them around a little.

所以你必须告诉他们几次事情，也许打他们一下。

And then they understand that they're good.

然后他们就会明白自己很好。

And then they're going to listen, and everything's going to work.

然后他们就会倾听，一切都会顺利进行。

Well, today, on our program, we have a story about somebody else who can't help himself.

好吧，今天，在我们的节目中，我们有一个关于其他人无法控制自己的故事。

He sees something he needs to fix, he needs to take care of, he needs to make it right.

他看到了一些他需要解决、他需要照顾、他需要纠正的事情。

And then through sheer force of will, he makes things happen boldly, heroically.

然后，凭借纯粹的意志力，他勇敢而英勇地让事情发生。

Though is it heroic if you can't stop yourself?

如果你无法阻止自己，那算英雄吗？

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act 1, Loudspeaker.

第 1 幕，扬声器。

So we start today with a guy, who-- I don't want to overstate this, and it sounds really big when you say this out loud, but I really think it might be the truth-- a guy who, with sheer force of will, utterly changed our politics and created the political world we live in today, alongside a second man who helped him.

所以我们今天从一个人开始，我不想夸大这一点，当你大声说出这句话时，听起来真的很大，但我真的认为这可能是事实——一个人，凭借纯粹的意志力，彻底改变了我们的政治，创造了我们今天生活的政治世界，还有第二个帮助他的人。

Zoe Chace tells the tale.

佐伊·查斯讲述了这个故事。

It's probably helpful in telling this story to remember for a second what politics was like before today-- how different, informal, and quaint things used to sound.

在讲述这个故事时，记住今天之前的政治是什么样子可能会有所帮助——过去的事情听起来是多么不同、非正式和古怪。

This is President Reagan walking onto the South Lawn.

这是里根总统走上南草坪。

It's 1983, April, but apparently, a cold day.

那是 1983 年的四月，但显然是一个寒冷的日子。

One of the lawmakers is looking very Soviet in his big coat and fur collar.

其中一位议员穿着大衣和毛领，看起来很苏联。

Well, I want to extend to all of you a very warm welcome.

我想向大家表示热烈的欢迎。

Something ought to be warm.

应该有一些东西是温暖的。

Reagan's in this '70s, all brown suit, with a brown tie.

里根70年代的形象，一身棕色西装，系着棕色领带。

But it's especially fitting that so many of us from so many different backgrounds-- young and old, the working and the retired, Democrat and Republican-- should come together for the signing of this landmark legislation.

但特别合适的是，我们这么多来自不同背景的人——年轻人和老年人、工作人员和退休人员、民主党人和共和党人——应该聚集在一起签署这项具有里程碑意义的立法。

Social security legislation, a major bipartisan compromise involving raising taxes and cutting spending to things that only go together when it's a bipartisan compromise.

社会保障立法是两党的一项重大妥协，涉及提高税收和削减支出，只有当两党达成妥协时，这些事情才能同时进行。

And now, as a special treat, I would like to ask two of our leaders from Congress.

现在，作为一种特殊待遇，我想请教我们国会的两位领导人。

First, to step forward for a few words is Speaker of the House of Representatives, the honorable Tip O'Neill.

首先请众议院议长蒂普·奥尼尔阁下发言。

Thank you, Mr. President.

谢谢总统先生。

Mr. President, Mr. Vice President, my distinguished colleagues in government, this is indeed a happy day.

总统先生、副总统先生、尊敬的政府同事们，这确实是一个快乐的日子。

A special treat, the Democratic leader.

民主党领袖，特别待遇。

The friendship between Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill is one of the most famous friendships in American politics.

罗纳德·里根和蒂普·奥尼尔之间的友谊是美国政坛最著名的友谊之一。

These days, it's regularly trotted out, like a fable, to demonstrate what the good old days were like back when things worked.

如今，它经常像寓言一样流传开来，展示过去一切顺利时的美好时光。

If you knew anything about Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill, you know he was a bipartisan schmoozer, a big Muppety guy, who took up a lot of space in the room.

如果你对众议院议长蒂普·奥尼尔有所了解，你就会知道他是一位两党闲聊者，一个大布偶，占据了房间很大的空间。

He'd invite members from both parties to poker nights in DC.

他会邀请两党成员参加华盛顿的扑克之夜。

He was in Congress for decades and by the time he was Speaker, he was a living legend type.

他在国会任职数十年，当他担任议长时，他已成为活生生的传奇人物。

We got along.

我们相处得很融洽。

And Nancy and I had Tip and his wife over for dinner.

南希和我请蒂普和他的妻子过来吃晚饭。

This is Reagan talking to William F.

这是里根与威廉·F·肯尼迪的谈话。

Buckley.

巴克利。

Then one day, I picked up the paper and read where he had made a statement about me that was pretty harsh.

然后有一天，我拿起报纸，读到他对我发表了相当严厉的声明。

And I called him, and I said, Tip, I thought we had a relationship here, where we could do business together.

我打电话给他，我说，提示，我认为我们在这里有关系，我们可以一起做生意。

And, oh, now, I read in the paper that you said--

而且，哦，现在，我在报纸上读到你说的——

And he interrupted me and said, well, buddy, that's just politics.

他打断我说，好吧，伙计，这只是政治。

He said, after 6 o'clock, we're buddies.

他说，六点以后，我们就是哥们儿了。

We're friends.

我们是朋友。

I did take it that every once in a while, when we had a meeting, I would visibly set my watch at above 6 o'clock.

我确实认为，每隔一段时间，当我们开会时，我就会明显地将手表调到 6 点以上。

To be fair, O'Neill had been known to call Reagan a real Ebenezer Scrooge.

公平地说，奥尼尔称里根为真正的埃比尼泽·斯克鲁奇。

Truth is, their relationship was complicated.

事实是，他们的关系很复杂。

They disagreed profoundly about a lot of stuff.

他们在很多事情上都存在严重分歧。

But that's the point.

但这就是重点。

It's why people tell each other this story.

这就是为什么人们互相讲述这个故事。

The two were able to come together and talk, compromise, and pass legislation.

两人能够走到一起进行讨论、妥协并通过立法。

Anyway, here we are today.

无论如何，我们今天就到这里了。

People are mean about each other now in public, all the time, in particular, the president.

人们现在在公共场合总是互相刻薄，尤其是总统。

And of course, people fight back.

当然，人们也会反击。

This is Congresswoman Maxine Waters.

我是国会女议员玛克辛·沃特斯。

He's not a role model for our children.

他不是我们孩子的榜样。

He is a liar.

他是个骗子。

He's a con man.

他是个骗子。

Maxine Waters, a very low IQ individual.

玛克辛·沃特斯（Maxine Waters），一个智商非常低的人。

You ever see her?

你见过她吗？

And Conor Lamb-- Lamb the Sham, right?

还有康纳·兰姆——假冒的兰姆，对吧？

Lamb the Sham.

羊羔假。

Lamb the Sham never caught on.

假冒羔羊从未流行起来。

But you know what I'm talking about.

但你知道我在说什么。

It's different now.

现在不同了。

Here, I want to lay out for you one theory of the case as to how we got from there to here.

在这里，我想为您阐述一种关于我们如何从那里走到这里的理论。

We've always had two parties.

我们一直有两个聚会。

But we didn't always have two teams like we do now.

但我们并不总是像现在这样拥有两支球队。

Red versus blue, us versus them.

红色与蓝色，我们与他们。

Each side routinely demonizes the other side as un-American.

双方都经常妖魔化对方为非美国人。

You sign up for one issue-- the wall, the Mueller investigation, Colin Kaepernick, climate change-- you basically sign up for all of them.

你订阅了一期——隔离墙、穆勒调查、科林·卡佩尼克、气候变化——你基本上订阅了所有这些。

It wasn't always so zero sum like it's become.

事情并不总是像现在这样零和。

You could explain what happened in different ways.

您可以用不同的方式解释发生的事情。

But I'm going to argue it was the work of these two guys that got us to this point, two guys, one quarterbacking the other.

但我想说的是，正是这两个人的努力让我们走到了这一步，两个人，一个四分卫另一个。

And so without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, the first of the two men who created the modern world.

女士们先生们，言归正传，我们是创造现代世界的两位男士中的第一位。

You know him from Fox News.

你是通过福克斯新闻认识他的。

You know him from Republican primaries gone by, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich.

你在过去的共和党初选中认识了他，前众议院议长纽特·金里奇。

I hope I can convey this in a way that you can really feel.

我希望我能以一种你能真正感受到的方式传达这一点。

If we lose, we will be able to look our children and our grandchildren in the face and say, we did everything we could to save this country.

如果我们输了，我们将能够面对我们的子孙们说，我们已尽一切努力来拯救这个国家。

[APPLAUSE] Zoe Chace Gingrich was a weird, nerdy kid growing up.

[掌声] 佐伊·切斯·金里奇 (Zoe Chace Gingrich) 在成长过程中是一个奇怪、书呆子的孩子。

People close to him say he always pictured himself as a historical figure, someone who would bend the course of American history, someone who anticipated stories like the one I'm telling you now.

与他关系密切的人说，他总是把自己描绘成一个历史人物，一个会改变美国历史进程的人，一个预见到像我现在告诉你的故事这样的故事的人。

From his teenage years, he thought this way.

从他十几岁的时候起，他就是这么想的。

He ran for Congress twice in West Georgia, lost, and then finally won a seat in the House in 1978 with a 1778 attitude, like there was a revolution on, and the country's very existence was at stake.

他在西佐治亚州两次竞选国会议员，都失败了，但最终在 1978 年以 1778 年的态度赢得了众议院席位，就像一场革命正在进行，国家的生存受到威胁。

We're fighting a war, Gingrich said back then, a war for power.

金里奇当时说，我们正在打一场战争，一场权力之战。

Raise hell.

升起地狱。

Raise hell all the time.

一直升起地狱。

His goal was to retake the House of Representatives.

他的目标是夺回众议院席位。

At the time, an impossible dream.

在当时，这是一个不可能实现的梦想。

Republicans had been in the minority for 24 years.

24年来，共和党一直处于少数派地位。

People called it the permanent Democratic Congress.

人们称之为永久民主党国会。

Once Newt finally got there, he discovered, as he'd suspected, was a place full of losers with Stockholm syndrome.

纽特最终到达那里后，正如他所怀疑的那样，他发现这是一个充满斯德哥尔摩综合症失败者的地方。

It was chummy, mostly guys in suits and ties, smoking cigars, playing poker together and generally, getting along, hanging out, talking to each other.

气氛很融洽，大多数都是西装革履、打着领带的男人，抽着雪茄，一起玩扑克，一般来说，相处、闲逛、互相交谈。

Also, depending on your perspective, it was a corrupt cesspool of bribes and giveaways.

而且，根据你的观点，这是一个充满贿赂和赠品的腐败污水池。

That's definitely how Gingrich saw it.

金里奇肯定是这么看的。

Republicans didn't have much power, but they'd go along to get along and occasionally do some deals.

共和党没有多大权力，但他们会相处，偶尔会做一些交易。

And most of them had stopped imagining it could be any other way.

他们中的大多数人已经不再想象它可能是任何其他方式。

I learned most of this story from the great political reporter Steve Kornacki.

我从伟大的政治记者史蒂夫·科尔纳基（Steve Kornacki）那里了解到了这个故事的大部分内容。

He'd just published a book about this time called The Red and The Blue: The 1990s and the Birth of Political Tribalism.

他刚刚出版了一本关于这一时期的书，名为《红色与蓝色：20 世纪 90 年代与政治部落主义的诞生》。

He's also that excited guy at the big board on MSNBC during elections.

他也是选举期间 MSNBC 大董事会中那个兴奋的人。

His arrival in the House coincides with a historic moment in the house, and that is the first television camera is placed in the chamber in 1979-- his first year there.

他抵达众议院时，恰逢众议院的一个历史性时刻，即 1979 年，第一台电视摄像机被放置在会议厅内，这是他在众议院的第一年。

And its C-Span.

还有它的 C-Span。

C-Span may not sound exciting to you, but A, it's still awesome.

C-Span 可能听起来不太令人兴奋，但是 A，它仍然很棒。

And B, it's a major change.

B，这是一个重大变化。

Now anyone can see for themselves what's going on in Congress if they want to.

现在，如果愿意，任何人都可以亲眼看看国会正在发生什么。

And people in Congress can speak to anyone on the outside.

国会议员可以与外部的任何人交谈。

Newt gets it right away.

纽特立刻明白了。

The rest of the House does not.

众议院的其他成员则没有。

There's a lot of opposition to it, because this is a club here.

有很多人反对，因为这是这里的俱乐部。

But once the camera's there, most members, they just kind of ignore it.

但一旦相机出现，大多数成员就会忽略它。

And they leave at the end of the business day.

他们在工作日结束时离开。

And they go and they do whatever it is they do after business hours.

他们会去上班后做他们该做的任何事情。

To Newt Gingrich, here it is.

纽特·金里奇，就在这里。

I want people to notice this around the country.

我希望全国各地的人们都注意到这一点。

I got an audience now.

我现在有了观众。

Yeah, it's Twitter.

是的，这是推特。

Tip O'neill The gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Gingrich, is recognized for 60 minutes.

Tip O'neill 来自乔治亚州的 Gingrich 先生被认可了 60 分钟。

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

谢谢议长先生。

I want to pick up where Mr. Walker left off on the document entitled What's the Matter with the Democratic Foreign Policy by Mr. Frank Gregorsky.

我想继续沃克先生在弗兰克·格雷戈斯基先生撰写的题为《民主外交政策怎么了》的文件中的内容。

OK, not Twitter exactly.

好吧，不完全是推特。

He's professorial, pedantic, not a lot of flair.

他是一位教授，迂腐，没有什么才华。

Somehow, someday, this country has got to learn to live with revolution in the third world.

不知何故，总有一天，这个国家必须学会忍受第三世界的革命。

It's endemic.

这是地方性的。

And he starts claiming there's this rule in the house that at the close of business and any day, any member can claim the floor for any reason they want for pretty much any amount of time they want.

他开始声称众议院有一条规则，即在下班后的任何一天，任何成员都可以以任何理由在几乎任何时间里要求发言权。

And it's called special orders.

这就是所谓的特殊订单。

And Gingrich starts claiming these special order speeches that were 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night.

金里奇开始领取这些特别的演讲，时间是晚上10点、晚上11点。

It's an empty chamber.

这是一个空房间。

His colleagues are asleep.

他的同事们都睡着了。

They're drinking.

他们正在喝酒。

They're not there.

他们不在那儿。

They're not listening to this.

他们不听这个。

They're never even going to hear about this-- most of them.

他们中的大多数人甚至都不会听到这个消息。

But Gingrich knows there are people all across America, who've got these new cable boxes in their house, who are scanning the dial and seeing what's out there.

但金里奇知道，美国各地都有人家里有这些新的有线电视盒，他们正在扫描表盘，看看外面有什么。

And some of them are going to pause when they see him.

他们中的一些人看到他时会停下来。

And what they're hearing is he's not giving a dry speech about and now, if I can direct your attention to subsection 3 of the agriculture funding-- he's giving these grand speeches about American politics, and an American identity, and the corrupt Democrat machine.

他们听到的是，他并没有发表干巴巴的演讲，现在，如果我能让你注意农业资金的第三部分——他正在发表关于美国政治、美国身份和腐败的民主党机器的盛大演讲。

Often Gingrich or one of his few allies was explaining how the Democrats were fringy, communist radicals.

金里奇或他为数不多的盟友之一经常解释民主党为何是边缘的共产主义激进分子。

The whole party, everyone in the party was, more or less, a socialist.

整个党，党内的每个人或多或少都是社会主义者。

It was sort of his version of all Democrats want open borders, but less punchy.

这有点像他对所有民主党人都希望开放边界的版本，但不那么有力。

Since communism doesn't strike them as an independent, inexorable force, feeding on totalitarian personalities and concepts, McGovern Democrats don't fear it.

由于共产主义对他们来说并不是一种独立的、不可阻挡的力量，以极权主义的个性和观念为食，麦戈文的民主党人并不害怕它。

Trash America, indict the president, and give the benefit of every doubt to Marxist regimes.

蹂躏美国，起诉总统，并让马克思主义政权从一切怀疑中受益。

That's the standard formula.

这就是标准公式。

He is producing what you would now recognize as a cable news show on the floor of the House.

他正在众议院制作一档现在被称为有线电视新闻节目的节目。

And he's performing for the camera, and he's giving his monologue.

他正在对着镜头表演，他正在发表独白。

He's giving his monologue on the decay of the Democratic Party, the decay of American culture, the promise of a Republican Party that embraces opportunity and responsibility, and all these things.

他的独白是关于民主党的衰落、美国文化的衰落、共和党拥抱机会和责任的承诺，以及所有这些事情。

And there is an audience that starts to tune in.

并且有观众开始收听。

And he knows it.

他知道这一点。

He gets that.

他明白了。

He gets the potential of that before anybody else.

他比任何人都先获得了这种潜力。

Newt believed there was a Republican majority out there.

纽特相信共和党占多数。

Because just a decade earlier, Richard Nixon had trounced the Democratic candidate for president.

因为就在十年前，理查德·尼克松击败了民主党总统候选人。

He won 49 out of the 50 states.

他赢得了 50 个州中的 49 个州。

Clearly, there was an appetite for Republican rule.

显然，人们对共和党统治有兴趣。

But Republicans were still a minority in the House.

但共和党人在众议院仍占少数。

People somehow weren't syncing up their Republican votes into one Republican ticket.

不知何故，人们并没有将他们的共和党选票同步到一张共和党选票中。

What he needed to do was paint all the Democrats more clearly as the enemy to the voters.

他需要做的就是将所有民主党人更清楚地描绘成选民的敌人。

And he'd do that by associating all of them with a candidate who'd lost to Nixon-- George McGovern.

为此，他将所有这些人都与输给尼克松的候选人乔治·麦戈文联系起来。

George McGovern was sort of the Bernie Sanders of his day.

乔治·麦戈文有点像他那个时代的伯尼·桑德斯。

So lefty, he even freaked out a lot of Democrats in '72-- the counterculture, anti-war candidate.

如此左撇子，他甚至吓坏了72年的许多民主党人——这位反文化、反战的候选人。

If Republicans were able in 1972 to score that epic of a landslide running against the Democratic Party of George McGovern and the activists behind him, Newt Gingrich believed that's the key to the Republican Party winning everything.

如果共和党能够在 1972 年以压倒性优势击败乔治·麦戈文领导的民主党及其背后的活动人士，纽特·金里奇相信，这就是共和党赢得一切的关键。

If you nationalize politics, and you make voters everywhere in the country see in whatever Democrat it is in their backyard, who's running for whatever office it is-- Congress, or Sheriff, or state legislature, or dog catcher-- if you get the voters to see that Democrat as no different from George McGovern and the folks around him, well, you know how those voters are going to react.

如果你将政治国有化，让全国各地的选民看到民主党人就在他们的后院，无论竞选什么职位——国会、治安官、州立法机构、捕狗员——如果你让选民看到民主党人与乔治·麦戈文和他周围的人没有什么不同，那么你就知道那些选民会作何反应。

They're going to go, and they're going to vote Republican.

他们会去，他们会投票给共和党。

And so his idea was to make voters across the country judge politics based on what they saw coming out of Washington, based on what they saw coming out of the national media.

所以他的想法是让全国选民根据他们从华盛顿看到的、从国家媒体看到的来判断政治。

Based on what they saw on C-Span, where over and over again, Newt brought up McGovern.

根据他们在 C-Span 上看到的情况，纽特一次又一次地提到了麦戈文。

In the late '60s and early '70s, it became a truism with the entire American left from bomb throwers in Chicago, to eastern writers, to progressive, pinstriped supporters of Eugene McCarthy and McGovern.

在 60 年代末和 70 年代初，这成为整个美国左派的不言而喻的真理，从芝加哥的炸弹投掷者到东方作家，再到尤金·麦卡锡和麦戈文的进步派细条纹支持者。

The Southeast Asia would be fine once the US left.

美国走了，东南亚就好了。

Attacking congressmen by congressmen by name and footnotes.

国会议员通过姓名和脚注攻击国会议员。

Congressman Harkin, on June 26, 1979 told the house that the Sandinistas knew more about nurturing democracy than America did.

国会议员哈金于 1979 年 6 月 26 日告诉众议院，桑地诺民族解放阵线比美国更了解培育民主。

Quote, "should the United States feel empowered to meddle once again in Nicaragua?"

引用：“美国是否应该感到有权再次干预尼加拉瓜？”

This speechifying made the Speaker of the House furious.

这种言论让众议院议长勃然大怒。

You remember the Speaker, the affable Muppet, Tip O'Neill.

你还记得议长、和蔼可亲的布偶蒂普·奥尼尔。

Newt Gingrich and a couple of the other guys, Gingrich acolytes, are talking smack about specific congressmen.

纽特·金里奇和其他几个金里奇的追随者正在谈论特定的国会议员。

They're questioning their patriotism on the public record, and they aren't even there to respond.

他们在公开记录中质疑自己的爱国主义，但他们甚至没有做出回应。

That was not done.

但那并没有完成。

It was against the gentlemanly code of the House.

这违反了众议院的绅士准则。

As Speaker, Tip O'Neill controls the cameras.

作为议长，蒂普·奥尼尔负责控制摄像机。

And he orders them to pan out and show the empty room that Gingrich and his buddies are addressing.

他命令他们平移并展示金里奇和他的伙伴们正在讲话的空房间。

Bob Walker, Republican from Pennsylvania, happens to be speaking right then.

来自宾夕法尼亚州的共和党人鲍勃·沃克（Bob Walker）恰好在此时发表讲话。

And he takes great umbrage when this happens.

当这种情况发生时，他会非常生气。

But I do want to take a note of something that's evidently happening right now, which is a change of procedure here.

但我确实想记录一下现在明显正在发生的事情，那就是这里程序的改变。

Tip O'Neill thinks this will make the guys look petty talking to no one.

蒂普·奥尼尔认为，这会让这些家伙在没有人面前说话时显得小气。

Watching it, it's like a surreal Beckett play.

观看它，就像一部超现实的贝克特戏剧。

A tiny man at the bottom of the screen gestures wildly from a podium as though he's speaking to a big crowd, but he's surrounded by empty chairs.

屏幕底部的一个小个子男人在讲台上疯狂地打手势，好像他正在对一大群人讲话，但他周围都是空椅子。

It is my understanding that as I deliver this special order this evening, the cameras are panning this chamber, demonstrating that there is no one here in the chamber to listen to these remarks.

据我了解，当我今晚发出这一特别命令时，摄像机正在摇摄这个会议厅，这表明会议厅里没有人聆听这些言论。

That is evidently the work of a change in the pattern of rules around here.

这显然是这里规则模式改变的结果。

It is one more example of how this body is run, the kind of arrogance of power that the members are given that kind of change with absolutely no warning.

这是这个机构如何运作的又一个例子，在完全没有任何警告的情况下就给成员带来了这种改变，这是一种权力的傲慢。

I see the gentleman from California, Mr. Coelho, was standing in the back of the chamber just a moment ago.

我看到来自加利福尼亚州的科埃略先生刚才还站在会议厅的后面。

Mr. Coelho has talked in recent weeks about shutting off these special orders and not allowing them to even be seen in the countryside.

最近几周，科埃略先生谈到要停止这些特殊订单，甚至不允许它们在乡村出现。

And he stands in the back of the chamber now smiling.

他站在房间的后面，微笑着。

I have to feel that perhaps he is getting worried that some of the things that are being said in this chamber in these special orders are, in fact, influencing people out across the country to think that this body is something less than what the American people think it ought to be.

我必须感觉到，也许他正在担心，在这些特别命令中在这个会议厅里所说的一些事情实际上正在影响全国各地的人们，让他们认为这个机构不符合美国人民的想法。

Lots of C-Span watchers today understand the congressmen are putting on a performance.

今天，许多 C-Span 观察者都知道国会议员正在上演一场表演。

There isn't always someone in the audience.

观众中并不总是有人。

But it was new back then.

但在当时还是新鲜事。

This all sets up a wild showdown between Newt and the Speaker Tip O'Neill.

这一切都在纽特和议长蒂普·奥尼尔之间展开了一场激烈的对决。

A few days later, Gingrich gets time on the floor.

几天后，金里奇得到了上场时间。

OK, I'll be delighted to yield to our distinguished Speaker if he wishes to continue this.

好的，如果尊敬的议长愿意继续，我将很高兴让他发言。

The Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill asking Gingrich to yield, so he can say something.

众议院议长蒂普·奥尼尔要求金里奇屈服，以便他能说点什么。

And Newt does, knowing the Speaker is going to yell at him.

纽特也这么做了，因为他知道议长会冲他大喊大叫。

This time, the chamber is packed with congressmen and reporters both.

这一次，会议厅里挤满了国会议员和记者。

Here's Tip O'Neill.

请听蒂普·奥尼尔的报道。

My personal opinion is this.

我个人的看法是这样的。

You deliberately stood on that well before an emptied House and challenged these people.

你故意站在一座空荡荡的房子前的井上，向这些人发起挑战。

And you challenge their Americanism.

你挑战他们的美国主义。

And it's the lowest thing that I've ever seen in my 32 years in Congress.

这是我在国会任职 32 年来见过的最低谷的事情。

As insults go, in the US House, circa 1984, this is big, so big, Trent Lott, Republican from Mississippi, standing near the Speaker says, I move we take the Speaker's words down.

大约在 1984 年，美国众议院发生了侮辱性事件，来自密西西比州的共和党人特伦特·洛特 (Trent Lott) 站在议长旁边说，我提议我们撤下议长的话。

I move we take the Speaker's words down.

我提议我们记下议长的话。

This means that would Tip O'Neill just said to Gingrich is so offensive, so toxic that he wants the wrongness of it officially acknowledged, perhaps even struck from the historical record as though it had never been said.

这意味着蒂普·奥尼尔刚刚对金里奇说的话是如此无礼，如此有毒，以至于他希望官方承认这句话的错误，甚至可能从历史记录中删除，就好像它从未被说过一样。

For five full minutes, everyone shuffles around, clutching their pearls about Newt, about the Speaker's behavior, how do we preserve the dignity of the House.

在整整五分钟的时间里，每个人都在走来走去，紧紧抓住纽特、议长的行为、我们如何维护众议院的尊严的珍珠。

The clerk reads out the offending speech once again so that the Chair can decide what to do about it.

书记员再次宣读违规言论，以便主席决定如何处理。

The Chair feels that type of characterization should not be used in a debate.

主席认为不应在辩论中使用这种类型的描述。

This is like saying, that was out of line.

这就像说，这是不合时宜的。

Don't do that again.

不要再这样做了。

That was very bad.

那是非常糟糕的。

But it doesn't actually erase the words from the historical record.

但它实际上并没有从历史记录中删除这些文字。

Still, it was an epic showdown.

尽管如此，这仍然是一场史诗般的对决。

Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill being scolded in front of America.

众议院议长蒂普·奥尼尔在美国面前被骂。

Maybe it's hard to understand what a coup this is for a younger congressman.

也许对于一位年轻的国会议员来说，很难理解这是什么政变。

But think of him as a producer, a producer of his newly-formed experimental cable news show on C-Span, how expertly produced this moment was.

但想想他作为一名制片人，他在 C-Span 上新组建的实验性有线新闻节目的制片人，这一刻的制作是多么熟练。

Everyone's in the room.

每个人都在房间里。

The Speaker of the House basically promotes Gingrich's late night program.

众议院议长基本上是在宣传金里奇的深夜节目。

Then the Speaker gets called out in front of the whole country, and he looks arrogant and mean.

然后议长在全国面前被点名，显得傲慢卑鄙。

And Newt Gingrich is at the center of the room, like a conductor, pointing from one guy to the next guy, doling out time, as the Speaker gets red in the face and yells over the room.

纽特·金里奇站在房间的中央，就像一位指挥，从一个人指着另一个人，分配时间，而议长则脸红了，在房间里大喊大叫。

The gentleman, Mr. Weaver-- [BANGS GAVEL]

这位绅士，韦弗先生——[刘海木槌]

And the gentleman, Mr. Walker, if they would express their opinion to the members of the floor, it would be fine.

沃克先生，如果他们能向会场成员表达自己的意见，那就没问题了。

And the story is covered on the nightly news.

晚间新闻报道了这个故事。

This is a turning point for Newt Gingrich.

这对纽特·金里奇来说是一个转折点。

He's now the Pied Piper, and other Republicans start rallying to his causes.

他现在是花衣魔笛手，其他共和党人开始团结起来支持他的事业。

Not long after this episode, Tip O'Neill retires.

这一集之后不久，蒂普·奥尼尔退休了。

And he's replaced by Speaker Jim Wright.

他的继任者是议长吉姆·赖特。

Newt sees an opening to take Wright down.

纽特看到了打倒赖特的机会。

He thinks it'll rally the Republicans in the House.

他认为这将团结众议院的共和党人。

It's a battle they can win.

这是一场他们能够获胜的战斗。

Wright is both cocky and dismissive of the minority party, with none of the hail buddy Tip O'Neill warmth.

赖特对少数党既傲慢又不屑一顾，没有蒂普·奥尼尔那样的热情。

It'll be a branding exercise for the new aggressive Republican Party Newt was selling.

这将是纽特所推销的新激进共和党的一次品牌宣传活动。

Here's what happens.

事情是这样的。

He reads a story in the Washington Post about the new Speaker getting $0.50 on the dollar for every one of his books he's selling.

他在《华盛顿邮报》上读到一篇报道，新议长每售出一本书，就能获得 0.5 美元的收入。

It's more of a pamphlet than a book, actually, but it's a way to give the congressman backdoor donations.

实际上，这更像是一本小册子，而不是一本书，但它是向国会议员暗中捐款的一种方式。

The people buying it were like the local Teamsters in his district and supporters at rallies.

购买它的人就像他所在地区的当地卡车司机和集会上的支持者。

Newt talks to the papers about this, compares Wrights to Mussolini, makes speeches.

纽特向报纸谈论此事，将赖特与墨索里尼进行比较，并发表演讲。

Think of it as though he's standing on his tiptoes, shouting over the heads of Congress to the American people-- drain the swamp.

想象一下，他正踮起脚尖，越过国会向美国人民大喊——排干沼泽。

That's his intention.

这就是他的意图。

Again it's just the idea that here's this clubby, elite, arrogant institution that the corrupt Democrat machine is powering.

同样，这只是一个想法，即腐败的民主党机器正在为这个俱乐部、精英、傲慢的机构提供动力。

And they are so disdainful of you everyday Americans that this is how they behave.

他们对你们普通美国人如此蔑视，这就是他们的行为方式。

And so Gingrich is calling for an ethics committee investigation on the House Speaker.

因此，金里奇呼吁道德委员会对众议院议长进行调查。

It's like shooting the general.

就像射杀将军一样。

The code of the House is you don't do this.

众议院的规矩是你不可以这样做。

Newt's striking at the top of the food chain.

纽特正站在食物链的顶端。

It's brazen.

真是无耻。

I want to say here, as tactical as Gingrich's attack on Wright was, from one perspective, this was an attack on corrupt, lazy Democrats that was long overdue.

我想说的是，尽管金里奇对赖特的攻击是战术性的，但从一个角度来看，这是对腐败、懒惰的民主党人的一次迟来的攻击。

It felt idealistic for everyone sick of being pushed around in the minority.

对于每个厌倦了被少数派摆布的人来说，这感觉很理想化。

Gingrich promised a new system that was less corrupt, more transparent, more accountable to the voters, not just like we're putting on a play that we're two parties.

金里奇承诺建立一个更少腐败、更透明、对选民更负责的新制度，而不是像我们上演一场我们是两个政党的戏剧一样。

But at 6:00 PM, we dropped the mask and make it work.

但到了下午 6:00，我们放下了面具，让它发挥作用。

Democrats freaked out when this happened, but Republicans were getting into it.

当这种情况发生时，民主党人吓坏了，但共和党人却介入其中。

It's not like Gingrich launched the campaign, and the entire Republican Party signed the letter, and that's it.

并不是金里奇发起了竞选活动，整个共和党都签署了这封信，仅此而已。

But they didn't pull him aside and say stop.

但他们并没有把他拉到一边并说停止。

And I think, even a couple of years earlier with Tip O'Neill, that would have happened.

我认为，即使是在蒂普·奥尼尔的几年前，这种情况也会发生。

Newt gets his ethics investigation into the Speaker's behavior.

纽特对议长的行为进行道德调查。

Wright defends himself petulantly on the House floor.

赖特在众议院任性地为自己辩护。

It is true, I think, the people on my staff were eager to sell these books.

我想，我的员工确实很想卖这些书。

I've got to accept some responsibility for that if it was wrong.

如果这是错误的，我必须承担一些责任。

But the rule doesn't say it was wrong.

但规则并没有说这是错误的。

It's kind of, yes, I had a private email server, but it wasn't that big a deal.

是的，我有一个私人电子邮件服务器，但这没什么大不了的。

You know by now how that goes over.

你现在知道这是怎么回事了。

After an investigation, the most powerful man in the House, who had served for 34 years, is forced to resign.

经过调查，任职34年的众议院最有权势的人被迫辞职。

Wright gives a speech on the House floor that reminded me of Jeff Flake retiring from the Senate last year.

赖特在众议院发表的演讲让我想起去年从参议院退休的杰夫·弗莱克。

And it is grievously hurtful to our society when vilification becomes an accepted form of political debate, negative campaigning becomes a full-time occupation, when members of each party become self-appointed vigilantes carrying out personal vendettas against members of the other party.

当诽谤成为政治辩论的一种公认形式，消极竞选活动成为一种全职工作，当每一党的成员成为自封的义务警员，对另一党的成员进行个人仇恨时，这对我们的社会是严重伤害的。

And he frames it in terms of something wrong is happening in this institution.

他根据这个机构正在发生的问题来描述这一点。

In God's name, that's not what this institution's supposed to be all about.

以上帝的名义，这不是这个机构应该做的事情。

When I came here, a congressman's word was a congressman's word, and that mattered for something.

当我来到这里时，国会议员的话就是国会议员的话，这很重要。

When I came here, we didn't question each other's honor.

当我来到这里时，我们并没有质疑彼此的荣誉。

I mean, it's all subtext to all of this.

我的意思是，这都是这一切的潜台词。

He's not using his name, obviously, but the subtext to all of this is, this is Newt Gingrich.

显然，他没有使用他的名字，但这一切的潜台词是，这是纽特·金里奇。

Harsh personal attacks on one another's motives and one another's character drown out the quiet logic of serious debate on important issues.

对彼此动机和性格的严厉人身攻击淹没了就重要问题进行严肃辩论的安静逻辑。

Surely, that's unworthy of our institution.

当然，这对我们的机构来说是不值得的。

Jim Wright painted his resignation as a sacrifice on the altar of civility.

吉姆·赖特将他的辞职描绘成文明祭坛上的牺牲。

He seemed to think his resignation would be so dramatic, it would put an end to the wars Gingrich had started in the House.

他似乎认为他的辞职将会如此戏剧性，这将结束金里奇在众议院发起的战争。

Obviously, the opposite is true.

显然，事实恰恰相反。

Republicans in Congress are galvanized by Wright's fall and Newt's tactics to get him out.

赖特的倒台和纽特把他赶下台的策略激怒了国会中的共和党人。

The wars that Gingrich dreamed of are starting to materialize.

金里奇梦想的战争正在开始实现。

Newt becomes the second most powerful Republican in the House, and he starts making himself into a franchise in the mid '80s.

纽特成为众议院第二位最有权势的共和党人，并在 80 年代中期开始让自己成为共和党人。

He starts running this organization called GOPAC.

他开始管理这个名为 GOPAC 的组织。

It's basically a candidate training organization and fundraising tool.

它基本上是一个候选人培训组织和筹款工具。

That's where he develops these audiotapes, little by-mail cassette tapes that teach potential candidates how to do Newt's divisive brand of politics.

这就是他开发这些录音带的地方，这些小邮寄磁带教潜在候选人如何进行纽特的分裂政治。

John Boehner has talked about driving around, listening to tapes like this in the car.

约翰·博纳（John Boehner）谈到过开车四处走动，在车里听这样的磁带。

I don't want to repeat it.

我不想重复一遍。

But I will just say, I have said this now for six months.

但我只想说，我已经这样说了六个月了。

And every audience I say it to nods yes and understands.

我说的每一位听众都会点头表示同意并理解。

You cannot maintain civilization with 12-year-olds having babies, 15-year-olds shooting each other, 17-year-olds dying of AIDS, and 18-year-olds getting a diploma they can't read.

如果 12 岁的孩子生孩子、15 岁的孩子互相开枪、17 岁的孩子死于艾滋病、18 岁的孩子拿到他们看不懂的文凭，你就无法维持文明。

And I stop audiences and say, now, if you disagree with that, and you think you can maintain a civilization with those things going on, the rest of what I'm going to say is irrelevant.

我阻止观众说，现在，如果你不同意这一点，并且你认为你可以在这些事情发生的情况下维持文明，那么我要说的其余内容都无关紧要。

You're not us.

你不是我们。

I don't want to waste your time.

我不想浪费你的时间。

You're not us.

你不是我们。

You're on one team or the other.

你属于一个团队或另一个团队。

So that's a lot.

这样就很多了。

Gingrich is almost at the height of his power.

金里奇几乎正处于他权力的顶峰。

He has an army of Republicans falling in line using the same language that they're going into battle-- he has media attention.

他拥有一支共和党大军，他们使用与他们即将投入战斗相同的语言排队——他引起了媒体的关注。

But it's the same old, entrenched Democratic Congress.

但这还是同一个古老的、根深蒂固的民主党国会。

The Republicans keep winning these big presidential victories, but the House is stuck with that permanent Republican minority.

共和党不断赢得这些重大的总统胜利，但众议院却被共和党永久少数派所困。

That's when the second guy comes into this story, the guy that made Newt Gingrich's dreams finally come true.

就在那时，第二个人出现在这个故事中，他让纽特·金里奇的梦想终于实现了。

And no, I don't mean Democratic President Bill Clinton, though, you could certainly argue that that is why Newt gets his wish.

不，我不是指民主党总统比尔·克林顿，不过，你当然可以说这就是纽特如愿以偿的原因。

But something happens before that-- someone.

但在此之前发生了一些事情——某人。

This is a man, who, I think, has had an astonishing impact on America.

我认为这个人对美国产生了惊人的影响。

He is, in many ways, the quintessential American.

从很多方面来说，他都是典型的美国人。

Here's Newt Gingrich introducing him at a training event for Republican candidates in 1995.

这是纽特·金里奇 (Newt Gingrich) 在 1995 年共和党候选人培训活动中介绍他的情况。

One of the reasons I believe in the end we'll win is the person who's about to talk to you.

我相信我们最终会获胜的原因之一是即将与您交谈的人。

We now have a media giant who stands astride the entire of society.

我们现在有了一个横跨整个社会的媒体巨头。

Join me in welcoming a man who is creating the 21st century-- Rush Limbaugh.

请和我一起欢迎一位正在创造 21 世纪的人——拉什·林博 (Rush Limbaugh)。

Rush Limbaugh was the perfect tool for Newt's mission.

拉什·林博是纽特完成任务的完美工具。

He and Newt had basically the same views.

他和纽特的观点基本一致。

But Rush was outrageous and exciting.

但《拉什》却令人震惊且令人兴奋。

He made his listeners feel like they were part of a righteous underground movement, the only people who were still sane in a world gone crazy and stupid.

他让听众感觉他们是正义地下运动的一部分，是这个疯狂和愚蠢的世界中唯一仍然保持理智的人。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

Nice to be with all of you extremists tonight.

很高兴今晚能和你们所有的极端分子在一起。

It's nice to be with like-minded souls, who want to starve our children and get our old folks sick and dying in the gutter.

与志同道合的人在一起真是太好了，他们想让我们的孩子挨饿，让我们的老人生病并死在阴沟里。

It's so nice to be with so many of you.

和你们这么多人在一起真是太好了。

I could just look out there.

我可以只是看看那里。

I see in so many hearts and faces the desire to poison the water and the air.

我在许多人心中和脸上看到了毒害水和空气的愿望。

Gee, isn't it great to be together here tonight?

哎呀，今晚能聚在这里不是很好吗？

Rush's communications' ambitions were just as high as Newt's political ones.

拉什的传播野心与纽特的政治野心一样高。

He never wanted to be in politics.

他从来不想从政。

He just wanted to make the greatest radio show ever.

他只是想制作有史以来最伟大的广播节目。

Half my brain tied behind my back just to make it fair.

我的一半大脑被绑在背后只是为了公平。

It's The Rush Limbaugh Program.

这就是拉什林堡计划。

From New York and our flagship station--

从纽约和我们的旗舰站——

He set the standard for political talk radio.

他为政治谈话电台设定了标准。

And of course-- wait, I have it right here-- widely imitated.

当然——等等，我这里就有——被广泛模仿。

Rush was funny.

拉什很有趣。

Did you know that the White House drug test is a multiple choice test?

您知道白宫药物测试是一项多项选择测试吗？

[LAUGHTER] Zoe Chace He could also be cruel.

[笑声] Zoe Chace 他也可能很残忍。

He said things like if you don't want to get AIDS, don't have gay sex.

他说，如果你不想感染艾滋病，就不要发生同性恋行为。

He was heavily anti-political correctness.

他强烈反对政治正确。

He ended up acting almost as Newt's de facto interpreter.

他最终几乎充当了纽特事实上的翻译。

He zhuzhed up his message.

他把自己的信息写好了。

Rush doesn't sound like a nerdy YouTube professor.

Rush 听起来不像是一位书呆子般的 YouTube 教授。

Gingrich talked about saving America from liberal politicians.

金里奇谈到了从自由派政客手中拯救美国。

But Limbaugh sharpened the Us vs. Them.

但林博让美国与他们之间的矛盾更加尖锐。

Democrats were about this.

民主党人就是这么想的。

Republicans were about that.

共和党人就是这么想的。

This is from Rush's TV show.

这是拉什的电视节目。

All right, Zoe Baird is in big trouble.

好吧，佐伊·贝尔德遇到了大麻烦。

She's been nominated as attorney general, but as you all know, she hired some illegal aliens to take care of her kids.

她被提名为司法部长，但众所周知，她雇佣了一些非法移民来照顾她的孩子。

Now, she only makes $660,000.

现在，她只赚66万美元。

As Cokie Roberts of ABC says, she had the best line.

正如美国广播公司 (ABC) 的科基·罗伯茨 (Cokie Roberts) 所说，她的台词最好。

With that kind of money, she could hire Mary Poppins.

有了这笔钱，她就可以聘请玛丽·波平斯了。

Why is she out there hiring illegal aliens?

她为什么要雇佣非法外国人？

Now, I have a couple of points about this I want to make that I don't think anybody else has made, except me in other places.

现在，我想对此提出几点看法，我认为除了我在其他地方提出过之外，其他人都没有提出过这些观点。

In case you haven't heard it, you should hear it, because it's brilliant points.

如果你还没有听过，你应该听听，因为它很精彩。

Bill Clinton's nominee for attorney general, Zoe Baird, hired an undocumented immigrant as a nanny for her kids, didn't pay social security taxes.

比尔·克林顿的司法部长提名人佐伊·贝尔德雇佣了一名无证移民作为她孩子的保姆，没有缴纳社会保障税。

At the time, I was 11.

当时，我11岁。

I remember it well.

我记得很清楚。

She was the only other Zoe I'd ever heard of.

她是我唯一听说过的另一个佐伊。

So I was thrilled.

所以我很兴奋。

Zoe paid the money back after she was nominated.

佐伊被提名后还了钱。

And neither Senate Democrats or Republicans saw it as a big deal at first.

参议院民主党人和共和党人一开始都认为这没什么大不了的。

But Newt Gingrich, that's the nerve of politics that Newt Gingrich is just conditioned to look for.

但是纽特·金里奇，这就是纽特·金里奇习惯于寻找的政治神经。

And it's like, God, could it be any bigger?

就像，上帝，它还能再大一点吗？

You've got a Democratic president coming in.

一位民主党总统即将上任。

And for attorney general, the top law enforcement officer in the country, he's nominating a woman who just blatantly flouted social security taxes.

对于司法部长，即该国最高执法官员，他提名了一位公然藐视社会保障税的女性。

It's just that populist nerve of they get away with things you don't.

这只是他们的民粹主义神经，他们会做你做不到的事情。

They live lives of privilege you can't imagine.

他们过着你无法想象的特权生活。

They lord it over you.

他们对你称王称霸。

They don't have to worry about the things you worry about.

他们不必担心您担心的事情。

It touched all of those nerves.

它触动了所有这些神经。

Gingrich got it immediately.

金里奇立刻就明白了。

He's railing against this.

他对此表示反对。

Limbaugh got it immediately.

林博立即明白了。

He's railing against this.

他对此表示反对。

And what happens is the senators, who are in the committee and don't feel this immediately, they start feeling it because their phones start ringing off the hook.

发生的情况是，委员会中的参议员们并没有立即感受到这一点，他们开始感觉到这一点是因为他们的电话开始响个不停。

There are Democrats who start saying after a couple of days that their office calls are, like, 90 to 1 against Zoe Baird's confirmation.

几天后，一些民主党人开始表示，他们的办公室电话对佐伊·贝尔德的确认的支持率是 90 比 1。

I mean, this is widespread.

我的意思是，这种情况很普遍。

And then they feel the pressure.

然后他们就会感受到压力。

They feel the pressure that Gingrich and Limbaugh had stoked.

他们感受到了金里奇和林博所施加的压力。

And it kills the nomination.

这会扼杀提名。

When Newt needed to communicate something to voters, he now had a direct line to millions of them listening to Rush every afternoon.

当纽特需要向选民传达一些信息时，他现在可以直接与数百万每天下午收听拉什的选民联系。

One afternoon, I'm in the middle of a big fight here.

一天下午，我正在这里一场激烈的战斗中。

And I called Rush Limbaugh's program director, and I said, here is exactly what's going on.

我打电话给拉什·林堡的项目总监，我说，这正是发生的事情。

He turned on C-Span.

他打开了C-Span。

He could see what was going on.

他可以看到发生了什么事。

It was an issue they cared about.

这是他们关心的问题。

And Rush went straight into talking about it.

拉什直接开始谈论这件事。

He's got somewhere between-- I don't know-- 4 and 14 million people.

我不知道，他的人口介于 4 到 1400 万人之间。

It's a lot, and they're intense.

数量很多，而且很激烈。

An hour later, I had members walking up to me on the floor saying, what did you do?

一个小时后，有成员走到我面前，问我，你做了什么？

Because literally, in some places, their phones are so jammed, they couldn't use them.

因为从字面上看，在某些地方，他们的手机很拥挤，无法使用。

That's from the documentary Rush Limbaugh's America.

这是纪录片《拉什·林博的美国》中的一段话。

It describes how Newt would just fax talking points out to talk show hosts around the country.

它描述了纽特如何将谈话要点传真给全国各地的脱口秀主持人。

It was like he was calling in airstrikes.

就像他在呼叫空袭一样。

I want to read to you now a paragraph from a letter that Newt Gingrich sent to all Republican members.

我现在想向你们朗读纽特·金里奇写给所有共和党成员的一封信中的一段话。

Newt wasn't just stirring the pot with divisive politics.

纽特不仅仅是在煽动分裂的政治。

He did have a policy vision.

他确实有一个政策愿景。

He got people to unite under it.

他让人们团结起来。

Going into the 1994 midterm elections, hundreds of Republican candidates signed on to this thing-- the Contract with America.

进入 1994 年中期选举时，数百名共和党候选人签署了《与美国的契约》。

For a moment, they were all literally on the same page with Newt Gingrich.

一时间，他们都与纽特·金里奇达成了一致。

The contract promised to fix everything they thought had gone wrong after 40 years of one-party control of the House.

该合同承诺修复他们认为在众议院一党控制 40 年后出现的所有问题。

There were anti-corruption measures targeted at the Congress itself, plus a slate of 10 proposals to balance the budget, cut welfare, do tougher sentencing, lower taxes, basically, a limited government, law-and-order agenda.

有针对国会本身的反腐败措施，还有一系列平衡预算、削减福利、更严厉的量刑、降低税收、基本上是有限政府、法律和秩序议程的 10 项提案。

They ran the contract in full in an ad in TV Guide, because everyone read TV Guide, and they'd open it up several times a week.

他们在《电视指南》的广告中完整地刊登了合同，因为每个人都阅读《电视指南》，而且他们每周都会打开几次。

And with that, Newt Gingrich, of course, got his majority, like he'd always dreamed, and became Speaker of the House in 1995.

纽特·金里奇 (Newt Gingrich) 理所当然地如愿以偿地获得了多数席位，并于 1995 年成为众议院议长。

He moved into the office held by Jim Wright and Tip O'Neil before him.

他搬进了吉姆·赖特（Jim Wright）和蒂普·奥尼尔（Tip O'Neil）的办公室。

Here's Democrat Dick Gephardt handing over the gavel.

这是民主党人迪克·格普哈特 (Dick Gephardt) 递上木槌。

With resignation, but with resolve, I hereby end 40 years of democratic rule of this House.

我怀着辞职但坚定的决心，在此结束众议院 40 年的民主统治。

Newt Gingrich pledges to work across the aisle, as they always do, though, for the first time, Republicans don't have to.

纽特·金里奇（Newt Gingrich）承诺像往常一样，跨党派努力，但共和党人第一次不必这样做。

It's an epic hugely significant victory.

这是一场史诗般的、意义重大的胜利。

Though it was Newt's dream, many people called it the Limbaugh Congress.

尽管这是纽特的梦想，但许多人将其称为林博大会。

How does it feel to be part of a majority that's right?

成为大多数正确者的一部分感觉如何？

It wasn't just the majority they'd gotten.

这不仅仅是他们获得的大多数。

People seem to be signing on to their vision of the country.

人们似乎正在认同他们对国家的愿景。

That it was split into two clear camps.

它分为两个明显的阵营。

The Democrats were amoral, welfare state-loving, politically correct feminists.

民主党是不道德的、热爱福利国家的、政治正确的女权主义者。

Republicans were responsible, balanced, budget-promoting, normal, regular Americans.

共和党人是负责任的、平衡的、促进预算的、正常的、普通的美国人。

One of the questions I was asked as the reporters were peppering me was, do you think Newt will moderate his stance now that he is the Speaker of the House?

当记者们不断追问我时，我被问到的问题之一是，你认为纽特既然是众议院议长，他的立场会缓和吗？

And I said, better not.

我说，最好不要。

[LAUGHTER] Zoe Chace From the moment Gingrich becomes Speaker, things get pretty red versus blue.

[笑声] Zoe Chace 从金里奇成为议长那一刻起，事情就变得非常红与蓝。

One Republican I talked to this week quoted to me from memory, indignant, something ABC News anchor Peter Jennings said on the air when Republicans finally took the House and installed Gingrich as Speaker.

本周与我交谈的一位共和党人愤怒地凭记忆向我引述了美国广播公司新闻主播彼得·詹宁斯在共和党最终拿下众议院并任命金里奇担任议长时在广播中所说的话。

Jennings said the voters had a temper tantrum.

詹宁斯说，选民们脾气暴躁。

The nation can't be run by an angry 2-year-old.

这个国家不能由一个愤怒的两岁孩子来管理。

This Republican's point was it wasn't just Rush Limbaugh who is stoking the fires of partisan warfare.

这位共和党人的观点是，煽动党派战争的不仅仅是拉什·林博。

It was the mainstream media, what he called the liberal media.

这是主流媒体，他称之为自由媒体。

It was a new day in Congress.

这是国会新的一天。

The Speaker and the president-- Gingrich and Clinton-- they did not hang out.

议长和总统——金里奇和克林顿——他们并没有出去玩。

The politics that follow are personal and vicious, as I'm sure you know.

接下来的政治是个人的、恶毒的，我相信你也知道。

It's a storm of whitewater, Hillarycare, government shutdown, Vince Foster, impeachment proceedings.

这是一场白水风暴、希拉里医改、政府关门、文斯·福斯特、弹劾程序。

Seems like the two sides couldn't stand each other.

看来两方都已经无法忍受了。

When Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal office building in Oklahoma City, Clinton gives a speech blaming, in part, talk radio for spreading hate.

当蒂莫西·麦克维炸毁俄克拉荷马城的一座联邦办公楼时，克林顿发表演讲，部分指责谈话电台传播仇恨。

It was gridlock politics.

这是政治僵局。

Depending how you saw it, it was obstructionism for its own sake or obstructionism in defense of bigger ideas that were finally part of the conversation.

取决于你如何看待它，这是为了本身而进行阻挠，或者是为了捍卫最终成为对话一部分的更大想法而进行阻挠。

People signed up for red or signed up for blue.

人们报名参加红色或报名蓝色。

Politics is team sports, no compromises.

政治是团队运动，没有妥协。

In other words, we've arrived at today.

换句话说，我们已经到了今天。

The whole reason I wanted to remind myself of Newt and that time were these past midterm elections.

我想提醒自己纽特和那一次的全部原因是过去的中期选举。

They felt like the extreme sports version of Newt's game plan.

他们感觉就像纽特游戏计划的极限运动版本。

Just like he worked really hard to make every Democrat into George McGovern, the campaign that the Republicans ran tried to make every Democrat into a caravan-loving, Kavanaugh-hating Nancy Pelosi.

就像他非常努力地让每个民主党人都成为乔治·麦戈文一样，共和党人的竞选活动也试图让每个民主党人都成为热爱大篷车、憎恨卡瓦诺的南希·佩洛西。

Newt himself was on Fox a bunch.

纽特本人也经常出现在福克斯电视台。

And his lieutenant--

还有他的副官——

What an honor.

多么荣幸啊。

This is so exciting.

这太令人兴奋了。

I have been watching Trump rallies from the very first one.

我从第一场集会开始就一直在观看特朗普的集会。

Rush Limbaugh was the opener for Trump's last rally before the midterm vote.

拉什·林博是特朗普中期投票前最后一次集会的开场白。

I was just talking to people backstage.

我只是在后台跟人说话。

And somebody said that the president and all of us have been labeled by some Democrats to the media-- divisive.

有人说，总统和我们所有人都被一些民主党人给媒体贴上“分裂”的标签。

[CROWD BOOING] Divisive?

[人群嘘声]分裂？

The Democrats haven't even accepted they lost the election in 2016.

民主党甚至还没有接受他们在 2016 年大选中失败的事实。

There is this one moment, where I think Newt realized maybe he'd gone too far in pushing people apart.

有那么一刻，我想纽特意识到他在疏远人们方面做得太过分了。

Stephen Gillon reported the story years later in his book, The Pact.

几年后，斯蒂芬·吉伦在他的著作《契约》中报道了这个故事。

It was October 1997.

那是 1997 年 10 月。

Newt was Speaker.

纽特是议长。

Clinton was president.

克林顿是总统。

They wanted to cement their legacies as great men of history.

他们想巩固自己作为历史伟人的遗产。

They decided to tackle two of the most daunting issues out there-- Medicare and Social Security.

他们决定解决两个最令人畏惧的问题——医疗保险和社会保障。

Fix them once and for all so they'd be safe for generations to come.

一劳永逸地修复它们，这样子孙后代才能安全。

The federal budget, for once, was about to run a surplus.

联邦预算这一次即将出现盈余。

Now was the time.

现在是时候了。

Because they'd fought so publicly, they met in secret.

因为他们公开争斗，所以他们秘密会面。

To avoid reporters, Gingrich entered the White House through a side door.

为了躲避记者，金里奇从侧门进入白宫。

If the partisans in either of their parties heard they were working together, the deal would fall apart.

如果任何一方的党派听说他们正在合作，这笔交易就会破裂。

The zealots on both teams would punish you for working with the other side.

两队的狂热分子都会因为你与对方合作而惩罚你。

The deal never happened.

这笔交易从未发生过。

Four months after they agreed to work together, the Monica Lewinsky story broke.

他们同意合作四个月后，莫妮卡·莱温斯基的故事曝光了。

A few months after that, Gingrich was pushed out of the House.

几个月后，金里奇被赶出了众议院。

He had to deal with ethics charges, like the Speaker he'd gone after 10 years earlier.

他必须应对道德指控，就像十年前他所追捕的议长一样。

And he was really unpopular by then.

而且那时候他确实不受欢迎。

The political environment he'd willed into creation had spit him out.

他愿意创造的政治环境把他吐了出来。

I can't work anymore with these cannibals, he said as he left.

“我不能再和这些食人族一起工作了，”他离开时说道。

But look at him now.

但看看他现在。

He can't stay away.

他不能离开。

Zoe Chace is one of the producers of our program.

佐伊·查斯是我们节目的制作人之一。

Thanks to Steve Kornacki, whose book gave us the idea for this story.

感谢史蒂夫·科尔纳基（Steve Kornacki），他的书为我们提供了这个故事的想法。

His book is called The Red and The Blue The 1990s and the Birth of Political Tribalism.

他的书名为《红色与蓝色：20 世纪 90 年代和政治部落主义的诞生》。

Coming up-- now, I would say that one of our co-workers got the idea to do the story you're going to hear in a minute.

接下来 - 现在，我想说我们的一位同事想到了制作您稍后将听到的故事。

He would say he had no choice about that or, for that matter, about anything ever in his life.

他会说他对此别无选择，或者说，他一生中的任何事情都别无选择。

And he'd say, you don't have a choice either.

他会说，你也没有选择。

What the hell he means by that, and he is not kidding.

他这到底是什么意思，他不是在开玩笑。

In a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。

This American Life.

这美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on the program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different stories on that theme.

当然，每周的节目我们都会选择一个主题，为您带来关于该主题的不同故事。

Today's show-- where there's a will, stories of people who cannot stop themselves from trying to make things happen the way they think they should happen in this world.

今天的节目——有意志的人们的故事，他们无法阻止自己试图让事情按照他们认为在这个世界上应该发生的方式发生。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

So the entire premise of our show today is where there's a will, which presupposes that we all have a will.

所以我们今天节目的整个前提是有意志，这预设了我们都有一个意志。

That we all have the ability to decide something and take action in the world.

我们都有能力在世界上做出决定并采取行动。

But it turns out that there are people who take issue with that premise.

但事实证明，有人对这个前提提出异议。

And one of them is one of our co-workers here at the radio show, David Kestenbaum.

其中之一是我们在广播节目中的同事之一，大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum)。

He now presents This Minority Report.

他现在提出这份少数派报告。

Let me say upfront, I realize the ridiculous, late-night, college-dorm-room nature of what I'm about to say, but here it is.

首先我要说的是，我意识到我要说的话是荒谬的、深夜的、大学宿舍的本质，但事实就是这样。

I do not see how free will can exist.

我不明白自由意志如何存在。

By free will, I mean, when you're staring at the menu, and you pick the salad over the burger or any other choice you make-- big or small-- who you marry, whether you keep listening to me for another minute.

我的意思是，当你盯着菜单，选择沙拉而不是汉堡或你所做的任何其他选择（无论大小）时，你会嫁给谁，无论你是否继续听我讲一分钟。

Free will is the idea that you really get to pick.

自由意志是你真正可以选择的想法。

I'm saying you don't.

我说你不知道。

I don't see how free will can exist.

我不明白自由意志如何存在。

I'm somewhat embarrassed to be saying all this.

说出这一切我有点尴尬。

For awhile, I couldn't even talk with my wife about it.

有一段时间，我什至无法和我的妻子谈论这件事。

It's been on my mind because I was wondering if I should talk about it on the show today.

我一直在想这个问题，因为我想知道我是否应该在今天的节目中谈论它。

And we'd be making the kids' lunches for the next day.

我们会为孩子们做第二天的午餐。

There'd be a gap in the conversation.

谈话中会有间隙。

I'd open my mouth, but I just couldn't do it.

我想张开嘴，但就是做不到。

I don't know why I'm thinking about this now.

我不知道为什么我现在想到这个。

I think the last time I did was in high school.

我想我最后一次这样做是在高中的时候。

But I just moved on.

但我只是继续前进。

It seems inescapable though.

但这似乎是不可避免的。

Years ago, I went to grad school in physics.

几年前，我读了物理学研究生。

And I think, if you haven't had the experience of actually doing something like that, it's easy to be like, oh, science.

我认为，如果你没有实际做过类似事情的经验，很容易就会觉得，哦，科学。

There's lots of stuff they don't know.

有很多东西他们不知道。

But the truth is, we know a lot about how the world was put together.

但事实是，我们对世界是如何组成的了解很多。

And please excuse the lecturing quality of this.

请原谅本次讲座的质量。

But briefly, there are only four basic forces in the world-- gravity, electromagnetism, and two others, the strong force and the weak force, the first holds atomic nuclei together.

但简单地说，世界上只有四种基本力——引力、电磁力，以及另外两种力，强力和弱力，第一种力将原子核结合在一起。

The second, crudely speaking, powers the sun.

粗略地说，第二个是为太阳提供动力。

Our understanding of these forces has been tested and explored again and again.

我们对这些力量的理解已经被一次又一次地检验和探索。

In one case that sticks with me measured and confirmed to an astounding 12 decimal places.

在一个让我印象深刻的例子中，我测量并确认了令人震惊的小数点后 12 位。

These four forces explain how atoms stick together, how every bit of matter moves, and yes, even the bits of matter that make up us and our brains.

这四种力解释了原子如何粘在一起，每一点物质如何移动，是的，甚至是构成我们和我们大脑的物质点。

We are just collections of atoms.

我们只是原子的集合。

I don't see how those atoms can truly have any will.

我不明白那些原子怎么可能真正有任何意志。

When you think you're deciding, I'm going to wear this shirt today, you can't really have decided otherwise.

当你认为你正在决定我今天要穿这件衬衫时，你不可能真的做出其他决定。

We are subject to the forces of nature, not one of them.

我们受制于自然力量，而不是其中任何一种力量。

It turns out there is this one friend of our family-- hey, Stu-- who also does not see how free will can exist.

事实证明，我们家有一位朋友——嘿，斯图——他也不明白自由意志是如何存在的。

I was talking to him on the phone, asking if he knew any serious-minded, credentialed people who I could talk to and put on the radio.

我在电话中与他交谈，询问他是否认识任何认真的、有资格的人，我可以与他们交谈并在广播中播放。

As it happened, he was staring at his bookshelf.

碰巧他正盯着书架。

He had a whole collection.

他有一整套收藏。

There are books by a bunch of dead philosophers, thinkers of various sorts, and then one book by someone who seemed perfect-- Robert Sapolsky.

有些书是由一群已故的哲学家、各种思想家写的，还有一本书是由一个看似完美的人写的——罗伯特·萨波尔斯基。

Sapolsky is a professor at Stanford, Genius Grant recipient.

萨波尔斯基是斯坦福大学教授，天才奖获得者。

He's a neuroscientist, who also spent 33 summers staring at baboons.

他是一位神经科学家，也花了 33 个夏天观察狒狒。

Just last year, he published this big book that was on my friend's shelf, called Behave.

就在去年，他出版了一本大书，名叫《行为》，放在我朋友的书架上。

So I read it.

所以我读了它。

And there is something curious about it.

这有一些令人好奇的地方。

He seemed to be making the argument that there is no free will.

他似乎在论证不存在自由意志。

But he never quite came out and said it.

但他从未真正站出来说过。

The words free will don't even appear until page 580.

“免费”这个词直到第580页才出现。

The first 15 chapters are all about research into what drives human behavior, different parts of the brain, hormones, genetics, how we respond to sensory cues.

前 15 章主要研究驱动人类行为的因素、大脑的不同部分、激素、遗传学以及我们对感官线索的反应。

Was he just avoiding coming out and saying it, like I've been?

他是否只是像我一样避免站出来说出来？

So you ask this question, can there be free will?

所以你问这个问题，可以有自由意志吗？

But I don't think you directly come out and say what you think.

但我不认为你直接站出来说出你的想法。

So what do you think?

那么你觉得怎么样？

I think I was basically trying to be polite there and sort of a good house guest.

我想我基本上是想表现得有礼貌，做一个好客人。

In actuality, I don't think there is room for the slightest bit of free will out there.

事实上，我认为那里没有丝毫自由意志的空间。

Sapolsky said, this was, in fact, the entire reason he had written the book.

萨波尔斯基说，这实际上就是他写这本书的全部原因。

He was trying to lead people slowly along a gentle path to this uncomfortable idea.

他试图引导人们慢慢地沿着一条温和的道路走向这个令人不安的想法。

I was reading it right.

我没看错。

I asked him why he doesn't believe we have free will.

我问他为什么不相信我们有自由意志。

As a neuroscientist, he thinks about it this way.

作为一名神经科学家，他是这样思考的。

Take any action-- a movement of your eyebrow, something you say.

采取任何行动——你眉毛的一个动作，你说的话。

Just trace that thing back.

只要追溯那件事就可以了。

Behind anything like that are just some muscles that moved.

类似的事情背后只是一些肌肉在移动。

So let's simplify it.

那么让我们简化一下。

A muscle did something.

一块肌肉做了一些事情。

Meaning a neuron in your motor cortex commanded your muscle to do that.

这意味着运动皮层中的神经元命令你的肌肉这样做。

That neuron fired only because it got inputs from umpteen other neurons milliseconds before.

该神经元之所以被激发，只是因为它在几毫秒前从无数其他神经元获得了输入。

And those neurons only fired because they got inputs milliseconds before and back and back and back.

这些神经元之所以被激发，是因为它们在前后几毫秒内收到了输入。

Show me one neuron anywhere in this pathway that, from out of nowhere, decided to say something that activated in ways that are not explained by the laws of the physical universe, and ions, and channels, and all that sort of stuff.

向我展示这条通路中任何地方的一个神经元，它不知从何而来，决定说出一些无法用物理宇宙、离子、通道和所有类似的东西的定律解释的方式激活的东西。

Show me one neuron that has some cellular semblance of free will.

给我展示一个具有某种细胞表面的自由意志的神经元。

And there is no such neuron.

并且不存在这样的神经元。

Your emotions, consciousness-- same argument.

你的情绪、意识——同样的论点。

At the bottom, just cells and chemicals acting like they would in the lab.

在底部，只有细胞和化学物质，就像在实验室里一样。

There's nothing more or less than the mechanics.

没有什么比机械更多或更少的了。

I mean, I feel like your whole book could have actually just been two sentences to cut to the chase, you know, not that I didn't enjoy the other chapters.

我的意思是，我觉得你的整本书实际上可能只是两句话来切入正题，你知道，并不是说我不喜欢其他章节。

What does it actually mean not to have free will?

没有自由意志实际上意味着什么？

Do you think of it as, if you rewind the clock, it would all unfold the same way?

你是否认为，如果你倒转时钟，一切都会以同样的方式展开？

I should say, there is some debate about whether no free will means that if you went back in time, and let your life unfold again, you would make all the same decisions exactly the same way.

我应该说，关于没有自由意志是否意味着如果你回到过去，让你的生活再次展开，你会以完全相同的方式做出所有相同的决定，存在一些争论。

The reason there's some debate is that way down at the subatomic level, there does seem to be a little wellspring of randomness.

存在一些争论的原因是，在亚原子水平上，似乎确实存在一些随机性的源泉。

Quantum mechanics is all about probabilities.

量子力学就是关于概率的。

Like when a radioactive atom breaks apart, the exact moment it happens seems random.

就像放射性原子分裂一样，它发生的确切时刻似乎是随机的。

It's unclear how often this apparent subatomic randomness escapes into the larger world.

目前尚不清楚这种明显的亚原子随机性多久会逃逸到更大的世界。

But it could be that if you rewound the film of life and played it forward again, you might get a different movie.

但如果你倒回生活的电影并再次向前播放，你可能会看到一部不同的电影。

But it wouldn't be because of free will.

但这不是因为自由意志。

It would just be subatomic randomness messing with the plot.

这只是亚原子随机性扰乱了情节。

A friend of mine had this experience where he kind of got to test this out.

我的一个朋友有过这样的经历，他需要对此进行测试。

His brain was artificially rolling back the clock, and he got to see its machine-like nature.

他的大脑人为地让时间倒转，他看到了它像机器一样的本质。

He went ice skating, and he fell and hit his head, which gave him some temporary amnesia.

他去滑冰时摔倒并撞到了头，这让他暂时失忆了。

When he was on the stretcher, he asked what had happened.

当他躺在担架上时，他问发生了什么事。

His wife said, you fell and hit your head.

他老婆说，你摔倒了，撞到头了。

And he made this joke.

他还开了这个玩笑。

That's not how you want to leave the ice.

这不是你想要离开冰的方式。

But then he kept asking what had happened and making the same joke, like, oh, I fell on the ice.

但后来他一直问发生了什么事，并开同样的玩笑，就像，哦，我掉到冰上了。

I know a good joke to make here.

我知道这里有一个很好的笑话。

After, he said it was like opening up the hard drive of his mind and seeing inside.

之后，他说这就像打开他心灵的硬盘并看到里面一样。

He's fine now, by the way.

顺便说一句，他现在很好。

For me, it is the one scientific fact about the world that I am just not OK with.

对我来说，这是我不满意的关于世界的一项科学事实。

I'm fine with the big bang and that all of existence came from a tiny point.

我对大爆炸很满意，所有的存在都来自一个微小的点。

That doesn't faze me anymore.

这不再困扰我了。

But I am not OK with the idea that I don't have free will.

但我不同意我没有自由意志的想法。

That seems-- I can't give that up.

看来——我不能放弃。

If I give that up, I'm giving up everything.

如果我放弃了这个，我就放弃了一切。

I feel like I'm deciding to say what I say right now.

我觉得我现在就决定说我所说的话。

I feel pretty confident about that.

我对此很有信心。

When I think I'm making a decision, what am I actually doing?

当我认为我正在做出决定时，我实际上在做什么？

Well, there's just a whole bunch of neuronal fulcra and some sort of Rube Goldberg sort of stretch of things that teeter this way or that and as a result, bounce something else in another direction.

好吧，只有一大堆神经元支点和某种鲁布·戈德堡之类的东西，这样或那样摇摇欲坠，结果，向另一个方向弹起其他东西。

So while it feels like we could choose this or maybe that, the truth is, some set of events mechanically led to our final decision.

因此，虽然感觉我们可以选择这个或那个，但事实是，某些事件机械地导致了我们的最终决定。

We just aren't aware of it.

我们只是没有意识到这一点。

Sapolsky brought of this famous experiment.

萨波尔斯基带来了这个著名的实验。

Sit somebody down in the room and ask them to name their favorite detergent.

让某人在房间里坐下，让他们说出他们最喜欢的清洁剂的名称。

And who knows what they're going to come up with.

谁知道他们会想出什么。

Do the same thing, and there's a picture of the ocean in the room on the wall.

做同样的事情，房间的墙上就会有一张海洋的照片。

And they're now significantly more likely to say Tide.

现在他们更有可能说 Tide。

Tide's my favorite detergent.

汰渍是我最喜欢的洗涤剂。

And ask them why.

并问他们为什么。

And they will give you some [?

他们会给你一些[?

Foucauldian ?] rational explanation about what Tide does to their strawberry stains on their shirts.

福柯式？]关于潮汐对衬衫上的草莓污渍做了什么的理性解释。

Sapolsky says, when we think we are making a decision, it is basically just some more complicated version of that.

萨波尔斯基说，当我们认为自己正在做出决定时，它基本上只是一个更复杂的版本。

You were looking at the menu.

你正在看菜单。

The room was slightly warm.

房间里有点暖和。

Your shoes were wet from the rain.

你的鞋子被雨淋湿了。

The light above the table was just so, and so you picked the salad.

桌子上方的光线正好，所以你选了沙拉。

The mom who yells at the army general couldn't have done it any other way.

那个对陆军将军大喊大叫的妈妈不可能有其他办法。

Newt Gingrich, when he got to Congress-- same thing.

纽特·金里奇（Newt Gingrich），当他进入国会时——同样的事情。

Speaking of which, did we all just go and vote?

说到这里，我们都去投票了吗？

Choose our representatives?

选择我们的代表？

If you believe what I'm saying, no one really could have decided to choose differently.

如果你相信我所说的话，那么没有人真的会做出不同的选择。

And look, I'm not saying, don't vote.

看，我不是说，不要投票。

You should vote.

你应该投票。

Do good things.

做好事。

Be kind.

友善一点。

Give to charity.

捐给慈善机构。

I'm just saying, it's weird.

我只是说，这很奇怪。

We are machines that don't know it, but don't want to deal with it.

我们是机器，不知道它，但也不想处理它。

For Sapolsky, this idea that we don't have free will is truly profound and should change the way we think about lots of things.

对于萨波尔斯基来说，我们没有自由意志的想法确实意义深远，应该会改变我们思考很多事情的方式。

For instance, all those decisions you've made because you're a good person, all those things you're proud of-- don't be so proud.

例如，所有那些你因为是个好人而做出的决定，所有那些让你感到自豪的事情——不要那么骄傲。

Anyone else starting with your atoms in the same place would have done the same thing.

任何其他从同一个地方开始的原子都会做同样的事情。

When people do bad things, he says you shouldn't hate them.

当人们做坏事时，他说你不应该恨他们。

Probably also, he says, we should try to rethink the entire justice system, which, of course, is a weird thing to say since there is no trying.

他说，也许我们也应该尝试重新思考整个司法系统，当然，这样说是很奇怪的，因为没有尝试。

It's just such a crazy-making idea, you know?

这真是一个疯狂的想法，你知道吗？

Yup.

是的。

David Kestenbaum Are you OK with it?

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 你同意吗？

Not in the slightest.

一点也不。

If I stop and really think about it, I get slightly panicked.

如果我停下来认真思考一下，我会有点惊慌。

There is no way to get out of an existential morass if you start really thinking about this stuff.

如果你开始真正思考这些事情，就没有办法摆脱存在主义的泥沼。

How often do you find yourself thinking about it?

您多久发现自己在思考这个问题？

Oh, I don't know, maybe four or five times an hour.

噢，我不知道，大概一小时四五次吧。

This is all I think about these days.

这就是我这些天所想的一切。

It's amazing to me that scientists don't talk about this more.

令我惊讶的是，科学家们不再谈论这个问题。

I think I went my entire graduate career testing the fundamental laws of nature without it ever coming up.

我想我在整个研究生生涯中都在测试自然的基本法则，但从未出现过。

Hi.

你好。

How are you?

你好吗？

Robert Sapolsky How was the exam, the midterm?

罗伯特·萨波尔斯基 期中考试怎么样？

This is Melissa Franklin, professor of physics at Harvard.

这是梅丽莎·富兰克林，哈佛大学物理学教授。

And for years, she was my professor.

多年来，她一直是我的教授。

I talked to her for the show when I was grappling with the possibility that we might be alone in the universe.

当我在努力解决我们可能在宇宙中孤独的可能性时，我在节目中与她进行了交谈。

So she seemed like the logical choice for this question.

所以她似乎是这个问题的合理选择。

This is how you think about it too, right, that we can't possibly have free will?

你也是这么想的，对吧，我们不可能有自由意志？

I think that there's no evidence that we have free will.

我认为没有证据表明我们有自由意志。

I mean, I guess it's possible.

我的意思是，我想这是可能的。

It seems unlikely.

看来不太可能。

It seems like we have free will.

看来我们有自由意志。

That's the thing, right?

就是这样，对吧？

Melissa Franklin Yeah.

梅丽莎·富兰克林 是的。

So I was asking one of my colleagues today, do you believe in free will?

所以我今天问我的一位同事，你相信自由意志吗？

And he says, absolutely.

他说，绝对如此。

And I said, do you think our brains are made up of neurons and axons and things?

我说，你认为我们的大脑是由神经元、轴突之类的东西组成的吗？

He said, yes.

他说，是的。

And then I said, so how do you reconcile those two things?

然后我说，那么你如何调和这两件事呢？

And he said, if it walks like free will and quacks like free will, it's free will.

他说，如果它像自由意志一样行走，像自由意志一样嘎嘎叫，那么它就是自由意志。

So our word is wrong?

那么我们的话有错吗？

Melissa Franklin No, the point is that operationally, we appear to have free will.

梅丽莎·富兰克林 不，关键是在操作上，我们似乎有自由意志。

But it's wrong.

但这是错误的。

Melissa Franklin Yes, yes, it is wrong.

梅丽莎·富兰克林 是的，是的，这是错误的。

But it seems like we do, so why not just go with the flow?

但我们似乎确实如此，那为什么不随波逐流呢？

That's the idea.

就是这个想法。

She was at lunch when this conversation happened.

这次谈话发生时她正在吃午饭。

And immediately, another colleague jumped in to argue the other side.

紧接着，另一位同事也站出来与对方争论。

And the other person was just saying, you're an idiot, without saying the word idiot.

对方只是说，你是个白痴，没有说白痴这个词。

It's one of these things when you start to talk about things that you don't want to think about that you sort of hope that magic comes in some way.

当你开始谈论你不想考虑的事情时，这就是其中之一，你有点希望魔法以某种方式出现。

So one of them was saying, well, there could be some complex thing that comes in that actually gives us free will.

所以他们中的一个人说，好吧，可能存在一些复杂的东西，实际上给了我们自由意志。

And the other person was saying, you're talking about magic or God.

另一个人说，你在谈论魔法或上帝。

Just say it out loud-- magic or God.

只要大声说出来——魔法或上帝。

Melissa is actually OK with the idea of not having free will.

梅丽莎实际上同意没有自由意志的想法。

I think maybe the problem of just a machine is not a nice way of thinking about it.

我认为也许仅仅考虑一台机器的问题并不是一个好的思考方式。

A human is not just a machine.

人不仅仅是一台机器。

A human is an amazing machine.

人类是一台了不起的机器。

Yeah, I know.

是的，我知道。

I love the machine that is my wife and my two little machines.

我喜欢我妻子的机器和我的两台小机器。

They're really adorable.

他们真的很可爱。

But when I think about it, that's what they are.

但当我想一想，他们就是这样。

They're so cute, though.

不过他们真的太可爱了

I go back and forth on what to do with this information.

我反复讨论如何处理这些信息。

Sometimes I feel like Robert Sapolsky does.

有时我的感觉就像罗伯特·萨波尔斯基一样。

That this is something deeply profound.

这是一件很深刻的事情。

We are machines that are smart enough to have figured that out, to realize we probably can't have free will.

我们是足够聪明的机器，能够弄清楚这一点，意识到我们可能没有自由意志。

And so we should think about what that means for how we organize our society, how we treat other people.

因此，我们应该思考这对于我们如何组织社会、如何对待他人意味着什么。

But there is another part of me that feels like maybe it changes nothing at all, which is weird to know that we are all living with this illusion of free will, but somehow doesn't matter.

但我的另一部分感觉也许它根本没有改变任何东西，很奇怪我们都生活在这种自由意志的幻觉中，但不知何故并不重要。

I've come to think of my daily existence as kind of like being in a movie, where I'm just along for the ride.

我开始认为我的日常生活就像在电影中一样，我只是随波逐流。

I'm making choices all day long.

我整天都在做选择。

But the machine that is me couldn't really have chosen anything else.

但我这台机器确实无法选择其他任何东西。

It gives me a weird lightness when I think about it that way.

当我这样想时，它给了我一种奇怪的轻松感。

And if I'm being honest, it also feels kind of cool knowing this thing that no one wants to face up to, watching us all run around as if not true.

老实说，知道没人愿意面对这件事，看着我们到处乱跑，就好像这不是真的一样，感觉也很酷。

When you pick a song to listen to, when you decide to try a second date, when you go left instead of right, when I say something stupid instead of just sitting and thinking for a moment, when I pick what picture to draw on my son's lunch bag, those aren't really choices.

当你选择听一首歌时，当你决定尝试第二次约会时，当你向左而不是向右时，当我说一些愚蠢的话而不是只是坐下来思考一会儿时，当我选择在我儿子的午餐袋上画什么画时，这些都不是真正的选择。

But I'm good at living with contradictions.

但我很擅长在矛盾中生活。

It's in the machinery.

它在机器里。

Ira Glass Our show was produced today by David Kestenbaum.

Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 David Kestenbaum 制作。

The people who put our show together include Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Jarrett Floyd, Damien Grave, Michele Harris, Chana-Joffe Walt, Seth Lind, Ana Martin, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Katharine Mae Mondo, Robyn Semien and Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala and Diane Wu, our senior producer, Brian Reed, our managing editor, Susan Burton.

制作我们节目的人员包括 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Jarrett Floyd、Damien Grave、Michele Harris、Chana-Joffe Walt、Seth Lind、Ana Martin、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Katharine Mae Mondo、Robyn Semien 和 Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala 和 Diane Wu（我们的高级制作人 Brian Reed）、我们的总编辑 Susan Burton。

Special thanks today to Rob Long, Kelefa Sanneh, Stu Greenberg, Sean Carroll, Jim Naureckas, Charlie Schaupp, Stephen Talbot.

今天特别感谢 Rob Long、Kelefa Sanneh、Stu Greenberg、Sean Carroll、Jim Naureckas、Charlie Schaupp、Stephen Talbot。

And thanks to the Frontline documentary, The Long March of Newt Gingrich, our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 episodes for absolutely free.

感谢前线纪录片《纽特·金里奇的长征》，以及我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 600 多集档案。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

And as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往，感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

I said, Torey, we've got 30 seconds left in the program.

我说，Torey，我们的节目还剩 30 秒。

What should we do?

我们应该做什么？

Just shut up.

闭嘴吧。

Shut up.

住口。

Shut up now.

现在闭嘴。

Don't talk about it anymore.

别再说了。

Shut up.

住口。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。