661: But That's What Happened - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #661 | November 9, 2018 661: But That's What Happened Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 661 集 | 2018 年 11 月 9 日 661：但这就是发生的事情 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass So Lilly, you're here to tell me a story?
序言 Ira Glass 那么莉莉，你是来给我讲故事的吗？
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass And I should say, you are Lilly Sullivan.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我应该说，你是莉莉·沙利文（Lilly Sullivan）。
You're one of the producers of our show.
你是我们节目的制作人之一。
Mm-hm, I am.
嗯嗯，我是。
Ira Glass So what's the story?
艾拉·格拉斯 那么故事是怎样的呢？
OK, so this is a story that I heard growing up.
好吧，这是我从小听到大的故事。
It was one of those things I was told as like, a scary story when you're a kid.
这是我小时候听过的恐怖故事之一。
Like an urban legend.
就像都市传说一样。
And then I've been thinking about it a lot recently, because I read a book recently that I really loved.
然后我最近一直在思考这个问题，因为我最近读了一本我非常喜欢的书。
It's called Her Body and Other Parties, by this writer, Carmen Maria Machado.
这本书的名字叫《她的身体和其他派对》，作者是卡门·玛丽亚·马查多 (Carmen Maria Machado)。
It's a finalist for the National Book Award, and she retells the story in one of the short stories in her book.
这是国家图书奖的决赛入围作品，她在书中的一篇短篇小说中重述了这个故事。
And it just stuck in my head.
它就在我脑海里挥之不去。
And it's just something that I've been thinking about a lot recently.
这也是我最近一直在思考的事情。
OK, so a girl and her mom are on vacation in Paris.
好的，一个女孩和她的妈妈正在巴黎度假。
And they're just traveling, and they've been there for a few days.
他们只是在旅行，而且已经在那里呆了几天了。
And the mom, she gets sick.
还有妈妈，她生病了。
And so the girl gets a doctor.
于是女孩就去找了医生。
And the doctor comes to the hotel.
医生来到酒店。
He spends a while examining her, and he's like, she's really sick.
他花了一段时间检查她，他说，她真的病了。
We need to deal with this immediately.
我们需要立即处理这个问题。
And he tells the daughter, you need to go across the city.
他告诉女儿，你需要穿过城市。
I have medicine.
我有药。
It can save her.
它可以拯救她。
You have to go get it while I tend to her, sends her downstairs.
你得去拿，我照顾她，送她下楼。
And the guy at the front desk, the hotel manager, takes her out, and he puts her in a cab.
前台的酒店经理带她出去，然后把她送进出租车。
And he goes to the taxi driver and, in French, tells him directions to where she's supposed to go.
他走向出租车司机，用法语告诉他她要去的地方的路线。
And it's on the other side of the city.
它在城市的另一边。
So the girl is in the back of the cab.
所以那个女孩在出租车的后面。
And it's just taking forever.
这只是需要永远。
The taxi driver is making all these loops and getting lost.
出租车司机绕了这么多圈然后迷路了。
.
。
And she's kind of frantic in the back, needing to get back.
她在后面有点疯狂，需要回去。
But she finally gets there.
但她终于到了那里。
She gets the pills.
她得到了药片。
She jumps back in the cab.
她跳回驾驶室。
And they drive back to the hotel.
然后他们开车回酒店。
She runs into the building.
她跑进大楼。
And she's running past the hotel manager.
她正从酒店经理身边跑过。
And he stops her.
他阻止了她。
And he says, miss, can I help you?
他说，小姐，我可以帮你吗？
And she says, yeah, I have it.
她说，是的，我有。
I found the medicine.
我找到了药。
I'm just going back up.
我只是要回去。
He's like, I'm sorry.
他就像是，我很抱歉。
I've never seen you before.
我以前从没见过你。
And she's like, no, you just put me in a cab.
她说，不，你只是把我送进了出租车。
I'm staying here with my mother.
我和我妈妈一起住在这里。
She's upstairs.
她在楼上。
And she's sick, and the doctor is with her.
她病了，医生也在她身边。
And he's like, we don't have any guests staying here right now.
他说，我们现在没有任何客人住在这里。
And so she runs past him.
于是她从他身边跑过去。
She runs upstairs.
她跑上楼。
She goes to the room.
她走进房间。
And she opens the door.
她打开门。
And the room where her mother was, it's empty.
而她母亲所在的房间，空无一人。
The furniture is all different.
家具都是不同的。
The walls are a different color.
墙壁的颜色不同。
Everything is rearranged.
一切都重新安排了。
And the hotel manager kind of chases her up.
酒店经理有点追她。
And he's like, seriously, miss, you need to leave.
他说，说真的，小姐，你需要离开。
You can't just be in here.
你不能只待在这里。
And so she's really confused.
所以她真的很困惑。
She starts running down the halls looking for them.
她开始沿着走廊跑去寻找他们。
Yeah, and so she runs out of the hotel.
是的，所以她跑出了酒店。
She runs into the street.
她跑到街上。
And she just starts asking everybody.
她就开始询问每个人。
You know, I'm looking for my mom.
你知道，我正在寻找我的妈妈。
Have you seen her?
你见过她吗？
So what happens to her?
那么她会怎样呢？
Lilly Sullivan Well, she just keeps looking.
莉莉·沙利文 嗯，她只是一直在寻找。
Years pass.
岁月流逝。
Oh, it's a fable.
哦，这是一个寓言。
Lilly Sullivan Right.
莉莉·沙利文 对。
Right.
正确的。
This isn't a real story.
这不是一个真实的故事。
Lilly Sullivan Right.
莉莉·沙利文 对。
And, you know, she's young.
而且，你知道，她很年轻。
She's in Paris.
她在巴黎。
She doesn't know anybody.
她谁也不认识。
And she just keeps wandering and looking.
她只是不停地徘徊和寻找。
And in the eyes of everyone in Paris, she kind of becomes this madwoman wandering the streets of Paris saying, "where is my mother, where is my mother."
在巴黎所有人的眼中，她有点像一个在巴黎街头徘徊的疯女人，说：“我的母亲在哪里，我的母亲在哪里。”
And sometimes, she wonders it, too.
有时，她也想知道。
Did I invent all of this in my head?
这一切都是我在脑子里发明的吗？
She wonders if it happened at all.
她想知道这是否真的发生过。
But at the same time, she knows that it happened.
但与此同时，她知道这件事发生了。
Like, she was staying there with her mother.
就像，她和她母亲住在那里。
Lilly, you said that this story has been stuck in your head for a while.
莉莉，你说这个故事已经在你的脑海里停留了一段时间了。
And I know it has because I know that it was your impetus for putting together today's show.
我知道是这样，因为我知道这是你组织今天节目的动力。
And you've been thinking about it for months, actually.
事实上，你已经考虑了好几个月了。
Talk about why.
谈谈为什么。
She goes through something in that story that I feel like I've gone through, I think that a lot of women go through all the time.
她在那个故事中经历了一些我觉得我经历过的事情，我认为很多女人一直在经历。
And it can happen in these really small ways.
它可以通过这些非常小的方式发生。
They don't get talked about because they're so small.
因为它们太小，所以不会被谈论。
So here's an example.
这是一个例子。
So years ago when I was just first getting into radio, you know, I had just graduated from this radio program.
几年前，当我刚开始接触广播时，你知道，我刚刚从这个广播节目毕业。
I got this little scholarship thing to go to this conference with a lot of people who have been in radio forever.
我得到了一点奖学金，可以和很多一直从事广播工作的人一起参加这个会议。
Yeah.
是的。
Lilly Sullivan And it was also, you know, one of those scholarships where we're all people of color.
莉莉·沙利文：你知道，这也是我们都是有色人种的奖学金之一。
We're all young, in a new career.
我们都还年轻，都在新的职业生涯中。
And it was all people who are older.
而且都是年纪较大的人。
And you know, public radio is mostly--
你知道，公共广播主要是——
White.
白色。
Lilly Sullivan Yeah.
莉莉·沙利文 是的。
Yeah.
是的。
So you're there and you're like, the young person of color who doesn't know anything about radio.
所以你在那里，就像一个对广播一无所知的有色人种年轻人。
Right, yeah.
对，是的。
Lilly Sullivan It was a little awkward or uncomfortable.
莉莉·沙利文 这有点尴尬或不舒服。
And there was this older person who was a pretty big deal in radio.
还有一位年长的人，他在广播界颇有影响力。
And he was doing this thing where he would kind of come up and talk to me like a normal person and, you know, say professional things about radio.
他在做这件事时，他会像一个正常人一样过来和我交谈，你知道，谈论有关广播的专业知识。
And then he would-- you know, it's a conference.
然后他会——你知道，这是一次会议。
So you see people, and you walk away, and you mingle.
所以你看到人们，然后走开，然后融入其中。
And then he would kind of walk away.
然后他就会走开。
And then he would be on the other side of the room, and he would just kind of like, leer at me from a distance, kind of all the time.
然后他会在房间的另一边，他会一直从远处斜视着我。
It felt like constantly, and he would just-- you know, he'd be waggling his eyebrows, pursing his lips.
感觉就像是持续不断，而他只是——你知道，他会摇动眉毛，撅起嘴唇。
You know, like, squinting eyes.
你知道，就像眯着眼睛一样。
So corny.
太老土了。
Lilly Sullivan I know.
我知道莉莉·沙利文。
So every time I would turn, he would, you know, catch my eye and like raise his eyebrows again like, still here.
所以每次我转身时，他都会，你知道，吸引我的目光，然后再次扬起眉毛，就像还在这里一样。
He was messing with me.
他在逗我。
I mean, but it was weird, because then, a few minutes later, he would just walk up to me, and then start acting totally normal, as if he hadn't been doing that.
我的意思是，但这很奇怪，因为几分钟后，他就会走到我身边，然后开始表现得完全正常，就好像他没有这样做一样。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Lilly Sullivan He would just, oh, you're here with this program.
Lilly Sullivan 他只是说，哦，你是带着这个节目来的。
It's a really interesting program.
这是一个非常有趣的节目。
And it's important to cultivate new people of color in radio.
在广播界培养新的有色人种也很重要。
And then as part of the conference, there was an event one night.
然后，作为会议的一部分，一天晚上举办了一场活动。
And, you know, there was alcohol and, people were drinking.
而且，你知道，有酒精，人们都在喝酒。
And he was standing with a group of men.
而他正和一群男人站在一起。
They're looking at me, and they're whispering.
他们看着我，窃窃私语。
It felt like they were talking about me.
感觉就像他们在谈论我。
I mean, they were.
我的意思是，他们是。
I could tell that they were talking about me.
我看得出来他们在谈论我。
Someone would look at me, saying something, and then someone would laugh.
有人会看着我，说些什么，然后有人会笑。
Did you have a feeling about what they were probably saying?
您对他们可能说的话有感觉吗？
I mean, I think they were just talking about like, me as a woman, how I look.
我的意思是，我认为他们只是在谈论我作为一个女人，我的外表。
Things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
And I think that he was telling them that he was going to sleep with me, or something like that.
我认为他是在告诉他们他要和我一起睡，或者类似的事情。
That's the way they were looking at me.
他们就是这样看着我的。
They were like, whispering to each other and squinting their eyes.
他们就像是互相窃窃私语，眯着眼睛。
And they were laughing at me.
他们在嘲笑我。
And then, he comes up to me and just acts totally normal, and tells me that I should come over and come meet them.
然后，他走到我面前，表现得完全正常，并告诉我应该过来见他们。
You know, he'd be happy to make some introductions.
你知道，他很乐意做一些介绍。
They're good people to know in radio.
他们是广播界值得认识的好人。
And so I go over with him.
于是我就和他一起去了。
And I like, put out my hand to meet them.
我喜欢伸出我的手来迎接他们。
And no one shook my hand.
没有人跟我握手。
And they all just kind of laughed and looked at each other.
他们都笑了，互相看着对方。
And I just--
而我只是——
Whoa.
哇哦。
Lilly Sullivan Yeah, it wasn't great.
莉莉·沙利文：是的，情况不太好。
It was really embarrassing.
实在是太尴尬了。
But it was so subtle.
但它是如此微妙。
It just felt humiliating in a way that I knew would sound silly if I tried to tell someone.
我只是觉得这是一种羞辱，如果我试图告诉别人的话，我知道这听起来很愚蠢。
And then later, I talked to people about it.
后来，我和人们谈论了这件事。
And they were a little skeptical.
他们有点怀疑。
You know, they were like, those people, they wouldn't have done that, the people who make the decisions in radio.
你知道，他们就像那些在广播中做出决定的人，他们不会那样做。
But I was like, I just, I know that it happened.
但我当时想，我只是，我知道它发生了。
And then in your mind, you're basically doing what the woman is doing in the story, which is like, this is definitely true.
然后在你的脑海里，你基本上正在做故事中那个女人正在做的事情，这就像，这绝对是真的。
But wait, is this true?
但是等等，这是真的吗？
Kind of.
有点儿。
Because, yeah, I mean, a little bit.
因为，是的，我的意思是，有一点。
Because, like, on the one hand, you know what it's like when people are kind of laughing at you when you put out your hand, and no one shakes it.
因为，一方面，你知道当你伸出手时，人们在嘲笑你，但没有人与你握手，那是什么感觉。
Yeah, that seems pretty blatant.
是的，这看起来很明显。
That seems like hard to make a mistake about.
这似乎很难犯错误。
It does seem blatant, right?
看起来确实很明目张胆，对吧？
Ira Glass Right.
艾拉·格拉斯 对。
But then when people say, you must have misread everything.
但当人们说，你一定是误读了一切。
And the guy himself is acting like everything is totally fine.
而这个人本人表现得好像一切都很好。
You're kind of like, is it possible that I misread everything?
你有点像，我是否有可能误读所有内容？
Am I overreacting?
我是不是反应过度了？
Did I just read all of that wrong?
我刚刚读错了吗？
OK, so the show that you have put together today, Lilly, was kind of inspired by that Paris story, right?
好吧，莉莉，你今天整理的节目有点受到巴黎故事的启发，对吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Ira Glass And then we just explained to the audience that it has two stories about women.
Ira Glass 然后我们刚刚向观众解释说它有两个关于女性的故事。
And in each of the stories, something kind of weird and unsettling happens to these women.
在每个故事中，这些女性身上都会发生一些奇怪和令人不安的事情。
And the world does not acknowledge how weird and wrong these things are.
世界并不承认这些事情是多么奇怪和错误。
But in addition, unlike the woman in the Paris story and unlike you at the conference, the women in these stories, they don't think anything has gone wrong.
但除此之外，与巴黎故事中的女性以及会议上的各位不同，这些故事中的女性并不认为有任何问题。
Not at first.
一开始不是。
At first, they think everything is fine because everyone around them acts like everything is fine.
起初，他们认为一切都很好，因为他们周围的每个人都表现得一切都很好。
And only later do they start to realize, wait, something bad did happen.
直到后来他们才开始意识到，等等，糟糕的事情确实发生了。
And so that is going to be our show today, two stories that, I have to say, are eye-opening.
这就是我们今天的节目，我不得不说，两个故事令人大开眼界。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1-- "The Old Man on My Shoulder." This first story, when the producers were working on it, started doing interviews for the story, it seemed like every single interview they came back so surprised at what they were learning.
第一幕——“我肩上的老人”。第一个故事，当制片人正在制作它时，开始为这个故事进行采访，似乎每次采访他们都对他们所学到的东西感到惊讶。
They really set out having no idea what they would find.
他们真的不知道会发现什么。
A warning-- this story has sexual content.
警告——这个故事含有色情内容。
It's probably not right for children.
这可能不适合孩子。
And it begins with something that happened to our producer, Elna Baker.
这要从我们的制片人埃尔娜·贝克身上发生的事情开始。
A few months ago I was talking to a guy I know, Rory, when Mormonism came up.
几个月前，当我和一个我认识的人罗里谈话时，摩门教出现了。
"You grew up Mormon?
“你是摩门教长大的吗？
You have to meet my fiancee, Reagan," he told me.
你必须见见我的未婚妻里根，”他告诉我。
"She was Mormon, too.
“她也是摩门教徒。
You guys will have so much in common." I know that's like saying, you're black, meet my other black friend.
你们会有很多共同点。”我知道这就像说，你是黑人，来见见我的另一个黑人朋友。
But in this case, he was right.
但在这件事上，他是对的。
Within an hour of meeting Reagan, we were singing church songs together, like (SINGING) When I grow up, I want to be a mother and have a family.
见到里根后的一个小时内，我们一起唱教堂歌曲，比如（唱歌）当我长大后，我想成为一名母亲并拥有一个家庭。
One little, two little, three little babies of my own.
我自己的一个、两个、三个小婴儿。
Of all the jobs for me, I'll choose no other.
在所有适合我的工作中，我不会选择其他的。
I'll have a family.
我会有一个家庭。
Four little, five little, six little babies in my home.
我家里有四个小婴儿、五个小婴儿、六个小婴儿。
All this while Rory looked on in horror.
罗里一直惊恐地看着这一切。
Reagan says that Rory is constantly bowled over by the things she tells him.
里根说，罗里经常被她告诉他的事情所震惊。
You know, it started out kind of fun and cute.
你知道，一开始很有趣又可爱。
And I'd be like, you know when you're singing around a piano with your family?
我会想，你知道当你和家人一起在钢琴旁唱歌时吗？
And he's like, no, nobody does that.
他说，不，没有人这样做。
That's not a normal thing for people's childhoods.
对于人们的童年来说，这不是一件正常的事情。
So it started out kind of cute like that.
所以一开始就有点可爱。
And then one day, I'm like, you know when you're in an office with an old man, and the doors shut, and you're talking about sex things?
然后有一天，我想，你知道当你和一位老人在一间办公室里，门关着的时候，你却在谈论性的事情吗？
Reagan's referring to the Mormon practice of confessing your sexual sins to the bishop.
里根指的是摩门教向主教承认性犯罪的做法。
This usually starts when you're 12, for boys and girls.
对于男孩和女孩来说，这通常从 12 岁开始。
Reagan told Rory about a time she was confessing, and the bishop rose from his desk and put his hand on her knee.
里根告诉罗里有一次她正在忏悔，主教从办公桌上站起来，把手放在她的膝盖上。
Even as an adult in her 30s telling the story, she didn't totally understand how shocking this was, but Rory did.
即使作为一个三十多岁的成年人讲述这个故事，她也不完全理解这有多么令人震惊，但罗里却明白。
And what was his response?
他的反应是什么？
Reagan Well, he repeated the whole thing, like, you mean to tell me that you were in an office alone with a man with the door shut, and he was asking sexual questions, and then he came out from behind his desk and put his hand on your knee?
里根：好吧，他重复了整个事情，就像，你的意思是告诉我，你独自一人在办公室里，和一个关着门的男人在一起，他在问性问题，然后他从办公桌后面走出来，把手放在你的膝盖上？
That kind of thing.
那种事。
And then, and your parents allowed that?
然后，你的父母允许了吗？
Your parents weren't mad about that?
你父母没有为此生气吗？
How did that make you feel?
这让你感觉如何？
Reagan Well, it made me feel everything all over again.
里根 好吧，这让我再次感受到了一切。
It really made me feel the shame and humiliation that I felt when I was 12.
这真的让我感受到了我12岁时所感受到的耻辱和羞辱。
12 to 18.
12 至 18。
It was nice to talk to someone else about this.
很高兴与其他人谈论此事。
From the ages of 12 to 27, I was supposed to walk into my bishop's office and confess anytime I did anything sexual.
从 12 岁到 27 岁，每当我做了任何性行为时，我都应该走进主教办公室并坦白。
But unlike old-fashioned Catholic confession, there was no curtain or anonymity.
但与老式天主教忏悔不同的是，没有幕布或匿名。
And Mormon bishops, they're not paid or trained clergy.
而摩门教主教，他们没有报酬，也没有受过训练的神职人员。
They don't wear robes.
他们不穿长袍。
They are men who are chosen by the church to volunteer their time and serve as basically pastors for a two-to-five-year period.
他们是教会选出的自愿贡献时间并担任两到五年的牧师的人。
They keep their regular jobs.
他们保留自己的正常工作。
One of my bishops, a good one, was a food scientist who helped invent Pop Rocks.
我的一位主教，一位好主教，是一位食品科学家，他帮助发明了流行摇滚。
Another was an investment banker named Chad.
另一位是一位名叫查德的投资银行家。
I'd sit across from Chad in a little office at church and admit to a sexual encounter.
在教堂的一间小办公室里，我坐在查德对面，承认发生过性行为。
And Chad would ask follow-up questions.
查德会提出后续问题。
"Did you go to first base or second?
“你去一垒还是二垒？
He put his hands where?
他的手放哪儿了？
Was it under the bra, or over the bra?
是在胸罩下面还是在胸罩上面？
Did you like it?"
你喜欢吗？”
To be forgiven of sexual sin, I was required to tell the bishop.
为了获得性犯罪的宽恕，我必须告诉主教。
So while I often felt ashamed or humiliated in the room, I never questioned the process itself.
因此，虽然我经常在房间里感到羞耻或羞辱，但我从未质疑过这个过程本身。
It was routine, like going to the dentist.
这是例行公事，就像去看牙医一样。
You turned yourself in whenever there was anything to report.
每当有任何事情需要报告时，你都会自首。
And on top of that, once or twice a year, you were required to go to this thing called a worthiness interview.
最重要的是，每年一两次，你需要参加一个叫做“价值面试”的事情。
Everyone did this, no exception, from the ages of 12 to 18.
从12岁到18岁，每个人都这样做，无一例外。
These were like checkups for your spirituality.
这些就像是对你灵性的检查。
The bishop would ask you a series of questions like, do you believe in God?
主教会问你一系列问题，例如，你相信上帝吗？
Are you a full tithe payer?
您是全额什一税缴纳者吗？
Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?
你与同胞交往时诚实吗？
In the midst of these questions about your faith, he'd ask if you obey the law of chastity.
在询问你的信仰时，他会问你是否遵守贞洁律法。
Reagan's first worthiness interview was pretty confusing.
里根的第一次价值采访相当令人困惑。
They sort of graze over everything until you get to chastity.
它们会吃掉一切，直到你达到贞洁为止。
And he said, "are you obeying the law of chastity?" And I didn't know what that word meant.
他说：“你遵守贞洁律法吗？”而且我不知道这个词是什么意思。
And so I asked him to explain it more, and he said, "are you engaging in sexual things like petting and necking?"
所以我让他再解释一下，他说：“你有没有进行一些性行为，比如爱抚和颈部？”
And I also didn't know what petting and necking was.
我也不知道抚摸和颈缩是什么。
I mean, I was about as innocent as a 12-year-old can be.
我的意思是，我当时就像一个 12 岁的孩子一样天真无邪。
I was home-schooled, and everything.
我在家接受教育，等等。
So I wasn't even around language like-- you know, any kind of sexual or lewd language of any kind.
所以我什至没有接触过类似的语言——你知道，任何类型的性或猥亵语言。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Yeah, so I didn't know what necking or petting was.
是的，所以我不知道什么是颈部或抚摸。
And so I think I said, like, I don't think so.
所以我想我说过，我不这么认为。
And I remember the feeling of my heart beating in my ears.
我记得我的心跳在我耳边的感觉。
You know, I felt my whole body was so hot.
你知道吗，我感觉我的全身都很热。
And even though I didn't know what it was, and I didn't think I had done it, I felt like I had done it.
尽管我不知道那是什么，我也不认为我已经做到了，但我感觉我已经做到了。
You know, I felt like I was really guilty.
你知道，我觉得我真的很内疚。
And it seemed like every question up until that point was really not important, and then this was the big question.
似乎在那之前的每个问题都并不重要，然后这才是大问题。
This was like, the whole-- you know, climax of the interview.
这就像整个采访的高潮。
And then I also became bad after that.
然后我也变坏了。
I became completely obsessed with necking, and petting, and finding out what it meant.
我变得完全沉迷于颈部、抚摸，并找出它们的含义。
Anytime anything would happen in a movie, anything sexual at all, I'd be like, I think that's petting.
任何时候电影中发生任何事情，任何与性有关的事情，我都会想，我认为这就是爱抚。
The interviews kick-started something with me.
这些采访让我开始了一些事情。
I made my Barbies do everything that you can possibly imagine.
我让我的芭比娃娃做你能想象到的一切。
It was like a bloodbath.
这就像一场血腥屠杀。
My Barbies went from just playing house to like, doing angel dust, and having like, orgies within a matter of weeks.
我的芭比娃娃在短短几周内就从过家家变成了喜欢做天使之尘，然后进行狂欢。
When Reagan was 16, she said she finally got a boyfriend to experiment with.
里根 16 岁时，她说她终于找到了一个可以尝试的男朋友。
And she did neck and pet with him.
她和他一起拥抱、抚摸。
But whatever fun she had was gone the second it was over.
但一切结束后，她所拥有的任何乐趣都消失了。
Did you immediately, like right after, think like, oh no, now I have to tell the bishop.
你是否立即想，哦不，现在我必须告诉主教。
Yes.
是的。
Yes, instantly.
是的，立即。
I went home, and I remember feeling really excited that I had necked and petted.
我回到家，我记得我对自己的脖子和抚摸感到非常兴奋。
And then the next day, I was just guilt ridden.
然后第二天，我就充满了愧疚。
The whole day I was like-- it was like I had a hangover, or something.
一整天我都感觉就像是宿醉之类的。
Like a-- I don't know.
就像——我不知道。
I was laying in bed, like thinking about it, and worrying about it all day.
我躺在床上，就像在想这件事，整天为这件事操心。
And I didn't tell him, or talk about it until I was asked to go in for an interview.
我没有告诉他，也没有谈论这件事，直到我被要求去接受采访。
And the door was shut.
门关着。
I was sitting there.
我坐在那里。
I was 16.
那年我16岁。
And he asked me all the questions.
他问了我所有的问题。
And then he asked me if I was keeping the law of chastity.
然后他问我是否遵守贞洁律法。
And I said no. I said no. And he came out from behind his desk, and pulled up a chair close to me, and put his hand on my knee.
我说不。我说不。他从办公桌后面走出来，拉过一把椅子靠近我，把手放在我的膝盖上。
This is the story she told her fiancee, Rory.
这是她告诉未婚妻罗里的故事。
And then said, "did you do this more than once?" And I said no, I only did it once.
然后说：“你这样做过不止一次吗？”我说不，我只做过一次。
And then he said, "did you have intercourse?" And I said no. And then he said, "did you like it?" And I said no. "Have you thought about doing it again?"
然后他说：“你们发生过关系吗？”我说不。然后他说：“你喜欢吗？”我说不。 “你有没有想过再做一次？”
Well, it was all kind of vague things.
好吧，这都是一些模糊的事情。
Like, you know, intercourse was probably the most specific.
就像，你知道，性交可能是最具体的。
But I remember him asking me things like, "did you impersonate sex?" Which I didn't totally understand.
但我记得他问过我这样的问题：“你模仿性吗？”我并不完全理解。
That's a really weird way to put it, too.
这也是一种非常奇怪的表达方式。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Elna Baker Hey, it's me, sex.
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）嘿，是我，性。
For penance you put together a plan that requires frequent check-ins, and you do assignments, like reading church literature about not having sex.
为了忏悔，你制定了一个需要经常检查的计划，并完成任务，比如阅读关于不发生性行为的教会文献。
For a while you can't take the sacrament, our version of communion.
有一段时间你不能接受圣餐，我们的圣餐。
This can feel like public shaming, like everyone notices.
正如每个人都注意到的那样，这感觉像是公开羞辱。
It's incredibly embarrassing because if you're a young woman, the assumption is it's sex related.
这是非常尴尬的，因为如果你是一名年轻女性，人们就会认为这与性有关。
Reagan's bishop set up more meetings with her.
里根的主教安排了更多与她的会面。
And then he called my house about twice a month, to check on me.
然后他大约每月两次打电话给我家，检查我的情况。
I felt really humiliated.
我真的感觉自己受到了羞辱。
I felt-- I felt like, evil, almost, you know?
我感觉——我感觉，几乎是邪恶的，你知道吗？
I felt like everything-- I felt like I was just such a disappointment, and I made my family look bad, and all of that.
我感觉一切都一样——我觉得我真是太令人失望了，我让我的家人看起来很糟糕，等等。
One morning last December, I opened up Facebook and saw this petition going around by a Mormon named Sam Young.
去年 12 月的一天早上，我打开 Facebook，看到了一份由一位名叫 Sam Young 的摩门教徒发起的请愿书。
He used to be a bishop, and he was calling on the church to stop these sexually explicit interviews.
他曾经是一名主教，他呼吁教会停止这些露骨的性采访。
This was the first time I'd ever heard them referred to as sexually explicit.
这是我第一次听到他们被称为露骨色情。
He posted a list of 29 questions different church members said that they'd been asked in their interviews with their bishops.
他发布了一份清单，其中列出了不同教会成员在采访主教时被问到的 29 个问题。
As I read down the list, I realized that I had been asked 13 of them.
当我读完这份清单时，我意识到我被问到了其中的 13 个。
Questions like, do you masturbate?
诸如此类的问题，你自慰吗？
Where and how did your boyfriend touch you?
你的男朋友在哪里以及如何触碰你？
Where were his fingers?
他的手指在哪里？
Were your nipples hard?
你的乳头硬吗？
Were you wet?
你湿了吗？
It took seeing them all together for me to realize how bad it actually was.
当我看到他们在一起时，我才意识到事情实际上有多糟糕。
There were stories of abuse on Sam's website.
山姆的网站上有虐待的故事。
Some are extreme, like bishops who convinced children that if they masturbated with them, the desire to do it would go away.
有些是极端的，比如主教让孩子们相信，如果他们和孩子一起自慰，这样做的欲望就会消失。
I was never physically abused, just asked questions.
我从未受到身体虐待，只是问问题。
As a bishop, Sam said he never asked these questions, and he was never asked them as a kid.
作为一名主教，山姆说他从未问过这些问题，小时候也从未被问过这些问题。
He found out about them from a friend whose son was asked about masturbation.
他从一位朋友那里得知了这些事情，他的儿子被问及手淫的问题。
Sam couldn't believe it.
萨姆简直不敢相信。
He posted about it on Facebook, and the stories came flooding in.
他在 Facebook 上发布了这件事，相关故事如潮水般涌来。
Of his six daughters, four told him that they'd been asked if they masturbated.
在他的六个女儿中，有四个告诉他，她们被问及是否自慰。
One of his youngest said she didn't know what the word meant.
他最小的一个孩子说她不知道这个词是什么意思。
She was 12.
她12岁。
So she looked it up on the internet, and this introduced her to porn.
所以她在网上查了一下，这让她接触到了色情片。
Sam thought if he brought all this to the attention of the church, they'd stop these explicit questions.
萨姆认为，如果他让教会注意到这一切，他们就会停止这些明确的问题。
The church response was that bishops are not supposed to be, quote, "unnecessarily probing or invasive in their questions." But what's necessary and unnecessary is left up to each individual bishop to decide.
教会的回应是，主教不应该“不必要地探究或侵入他们的问题”。但什么是必要的、什么是不必要的，则由每个主教自行决定。
The church doesn't define exactly where the line is.
教会并没有明确规定这条线在哪里。
As the story got more heat, the church issued new guidelines this spring, saying kids could have a parent or an adult in the room when meeting with the bishop.
随着这个故事变得越来越热，教会在今年春天发布了新的指导方针，称孩子们在与主教会面时可以有父母或成人在场。
The church claims this had nothing to do with Sam's petition, but clearly he had touched a nerve.
教会声称这与山姆的请愿无关，但显然他触动了神经。
He was excommunicated from the church in September for acting, quote "in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the church." And a lot of Mormons online resisted his claims.
9月份，他因“明确、公开、蓄意地公开反对教会”而被教会逐出教会。许多摩门教徒在网上抵制了他的主张。
They defended their bishops, saying they hadn't been asked inappropriate or disturbing questions.
他们为主教辩护，称他们没有被问到不恰当或令人不安的问题。
That these incidents were isolated and unusual, or that Sam was making these stories up.
这些事件是孤立的和不寻常的，或者山姆编造了这些故事。
That they hadn't happened at all.
那些事情根本就没有发生过。
But I knew they'd happened, because they'd happened to me.
但我知道它们发生了，因为它们发生在我身上。
And they stuck with me.
他们一直陪着我。
I had rarely talked about it with any friends, and never my family.
我很少和朋友谈论这件事，更不用说我的家人了。
Even all these years later, I feel like it's my fault.
即使这么多年过去了，我仍然觉得这是我的错。
That I somehow deserved these humiliating encounters.
我觉得这些屈辱的遭遇是我应得的。
And talking to Reagan and reading the stories on Sam's website, I wondered, how widespread is this?
在与里根交谈并阅读萨姆网站上的故事时，我想知道这种情况有多普遍？
It just so happens that we have another person on staff who grew up Mormon.
碰巧我们的员工中还有一个是摩门教长大的。
So together, we just started calling people, some we knew, some we didn't, some were practicing Mormons, others had left the church.
因此，我们一起开始给人们打电话，有些人是我们认识的，有些人是不认识的，有些人是摩门教徒，有些人已经离开了教堂。
And people definitely remembered their bishop interviews.
人们肯定还记得他们对主教的采访。
They'd be like, well, how long did it last?
他们会说，好吧，这持续了多久？
Or did he put his fingers in you, or did you put your fingers on him?
或者是他把手指放在你身上，还是你把手指放在他身上？
And I think he asked me if I had made her orgasm.
我想他问我是否让她达到了高潮。
I remember going really red in the face, an extreme amount of anxiety.
我记得当时我的脸非常红，非常焦虑。
I felt like my throat was closing.
我感觉我的喉咙被堵住了。
And I was only 11, and I'd never had a boyfriend.
当时我才11岁，还没有男朋友。
I told him, yes, I'm keeping the law of chastity.
我告诉他，是的，我遵守贞洁律法。
He said, "are you lying to me?" I said no. And he said, "are you sure you're not lying to me?" And I thought, does the bishop know something about me that I don't know?
他说：“你在骗我吗？”我说不。他说：“你确定你没有骗我吗？”我想，主教是否了解我一些我不知道的事情？
We reached 10 people.
我们达到了 10 人。
And to our surprise, all 10 said that they had had at least one experience with a bishop where they felt the line of questioning went too far, or became overly explicit.
令我们惊讶的是，所有 10 个人都表示，他们至少有过一次与主教交谈的经历，他们觉得提问的线索太过分了，或者变得过于明确。
These interactions left them feeling deeply uncomfortable and ashamed, to the point that most of them had never shared their stories with anyone.
这些互动让他们感到非常不舒服和羞愧，以至于他们中的大多数人从未与任何人分享过自己的故事。
This led me to ask my siblings, and of the five of us, four had had bad experiences.
这让我问了我的兄弟姐妹，我们五个人中，有四个人有过不愉快的经历。
I don't want to say every Mormon feels this way about their bishops.
我不想说每个摩门教徒都对他们的主教有这样的感觉。
The therapist I contacted, who specializes in sex and relationships, and works with current and former church members, estimated that bishop interviews only come up with one out of eight of her clients.
我联系的治疗师专门研究性和关系，并与现任和前任教会成员合作，她估计主教访谈只能找到她八分之一的客户。
And talking about chastity is just a small part of what bishops do.
谈论贞洁只是主教所做的一小部分。
Lots of people have positive experiences with their bishops, including me, and the people we talked to.
很多人都对他们的主教有积极的经历，包括我和我们交谈过的人。
Yes, some bishops went too far, but we had others who didn't.
是的，有些主教做得太过分了，但我们也有一些主教没有。
You get a new one every few years.
每隔几年你就会得到一个新的。
But bishop interviews can be hugely consequential for your life.
但主教访谈可能对你的生活产生巨大影响。
To attend any Mormon-run college, you need your bishop to give you what's called an ecclesiastical endorsement, which is basically a letter stating that you're a faithful Mormon obeying the church's teachings.
要进入任何摩门教开办的大学，您需要主教给您一份所谓的教会认可，这基本上是一封信，表明您是一名忠实的摩门教徒，遵守教会的教义。
I talked to a woman named Alisha.
我和一位名叫艾丽莎的女士交谈过。
She's from Utah in her early 40s.
她来自犹他州，四十岁出头。
When she was 20, she went to get her ecclesiastical endorsement to go to BYU, Brigham Young University.
20 岁时，她获得教会的认可去杨百翰大学 (BYU) 就读。
Alisha had previously had sex with her boyfriend, but says she stopped, and had been abstinent for a while.
艾丽莎之前曾与男友发生过性关系，但她说她停止了，并且已经禁欲了一段时间。
She hadn't confessed it yet, though.
不过，她还没有承认这一点。
And her feeling was that if she was going to a church school, she wanted to do it the right way.
她的感觉是，如果她要去教会学校，她想以正确的方式去做。
She wanted to be on the up and up.
她想要不断进步。
She figured the interview would go OK if she just told the truth because she'd only had positive experiences with bishops before.
她认为如果她说实话，采访就会顺利，因为她以前只与主教有过积极的经历。
And so she made an appointment with her bishop.
所以她和她的主教预约了。
He asked me about masturbation, which I had never been asked before.
他问我关于手淫的问题，这是我以前从未被问过的。
So that was a little bit surprising.
所以这有点令人惊讶。
And I said yes.
我说是的。
But then he proceeded to ask me, "did you use your hands, or did you use a device?" And immediately, like every cell in my body was on alert.
但随后他又问我：“你是用手，还是用设备？”立刻，我体内的每一个细胞都进入了警戒状态。
Like when you're walking down an alley, and all of a sudden you feel extremely uncomfortable.
就像当你走在小巷里时，突然你感到非常不舒服。
That's how I felt.
我就是这么感觉的。
Like, right out of the get go.
就像，一开始就开始。
So I said, well, why does it matter?
所以我说，好吧，为什么这很重要？
And he said, "well, I just want to get a sense so I can advise you on triggers, and what to avoid."
他说：“好吧，我只是想了解一下，这样我就可以为你提供关于触发因素以及应该避免什么的建议。”
He asked her a bunch of other sexual questions.
他问了她很多其他的性问题。
She said yes to all of them, and confessed she had sex with her boyfriend.
她对所有人都答应了，并承认她与男友发生了性关系。
He proceeded to ask me, where were you?
他继续问我，你在哪里？
Were you in your bed, in a car?
你是在床上、在车里吗？
Did you climax?
你达到高潮了吗？
Did he climax?
他达到高潮了吗？
I said, does it make it less of a sin if I climaxed, or does it make it more of a sin?
我说，如果我达到了高潮，是罪孽会减少，还是罪孽会增加？
I was confused.
我很困惑。
I don't know what the rules are.
我不知道规则是什么。
Like, I didn't know.
就像，我不知道。
Definitely, it was like he sat forward in his chair.
当然，就像他坐在椅子上一样。
And I felt like he was watching porn that was my life, and not his business.
我觉得他在看色情片，那是我的生活，而不是他的事。
That was my take, that he was using my story and his power to create pictures in his head that he could take pleasure from.
我的看法是，他正在利用我的故事和他的力量在他的脑海中创造出他可以享受的画面。
I mean, that's how it felt.
我的意思是，就是这样的感觉。
At some point he said, "So all you guys do is have sex?
有一次他说：“那么你们所做的一切就是做爱吗？
You guys don't do anything else?" And I'm thinking, no, this is a boyfriend that we do a lot.
你们就不做别的事了吗？”我在想，不，这是我们经常做的男朋友。
Like, he's in a band.
就像，他在一个乐队里。
We go do all these shows.
我们去做所有这些表演。
Like, I help roadie for him.
就像，我帮他做巡演。
Our relationship is not the sex.
我们的关系不是性别。
It's just what you're asking about.
这正是你要问的。
And now you're making it sound like that's the only thing we do.
现在你听起来好像这是我们唯一做的事情。
It was bizarre.
这很奇怪。
But I needed that signature.
但我需要那个签名。
And eventually got it, but not without paying a price.
最终得到了它，但并非没有付出代价。
She was too scared to report him.
她太害怕了，不敢举报他。
She thought it could backfire.
她认为这可能会适得其反。
And she had to keep meeting with him once a week.
而且她必须每周与他见面一次。
She said she always felt sick beforehand, and tried to think of excuses not to go.
她说她事先总是感到不舒服，并想找借口不去。
It's hard because it's not like I could have said, this man is molesting me, or raping me, or-- And I've had other experiences that were sexual pressure put on me, you know, with hands, that were less traumatic than this.
这很难，因为这不像我可以说的那样，这个男人正在猥亵我，或者强奸我，或者——而且我也有过其他经历，这些经历是用手对我施加性压力的，你知道，这些经历比这更不那么痛苦。
I grew up watching this church video that primed me for the role I was supposed to play in the bishop's office.
我是看着这段教堂视频长大的，它让我为自己在主教办公室扮演的角色做好了准备。
It's called "Godly Sorrow Leads to Repentance." And our teachers would show it to us when they slacked on preparing a lesson.
这就是所谓的“依神的忧愁导致悔改”。当我们的老师在备课时懈怠时，就会向我们展示它。
In the video, a young woman named Kim visits her bishop because she's going to get married, and in order to enter the temple, she needs a signed document.
视频中，一位名叫金的年轻女子因为要结婚而拜访了她的主教，为了进入圣殿，她需要一份签署的文件。
A temple recommend, that says she's worthy.
寺庙推荐，表明她值得。
Kim sits across the desk from her bishop and he asks--
金坐在她主教的桌子对面，他问——
Is there anything in your life, Kim, that hasn't been resolved with the proper priesthood authority?
金，你的生活中还有什么事情没有得到适当的圣职权柄解决吗？
Well, before Matt returned from his mission, I was involved with another boy.
嗯，在马特完成任务回来之前，我和另一个男孩有关系。
We probably spent a little too much time together alone.
我们可能单独在一起度过了太多时间。
The bishop waits for her to say more.
主教等着她再说下去。
When Kim doesn't, he nods his head and gestures.
当 Kim 没有这么做时，他会点点头并做手势。
Go on.
继续。
Kim I guess things sort of got out of hand.
Kim 我猜事情有点失控了。
Kim, I know how hard it is to talk about things like this, but I need to know how serious the problem was if I'm going to help resolve it.
金，我知道谈论这样的事情有多困难，但如果我要帮助解决问题，我需要知道问题有多严重。
I guess we were getting a little too comfortable together.
我想我们在一起有点太舒服了。
And that's when the problems started.
这就是问题开始的时候。
The screen fades and cuts back to the bishop, implying that time has passed, and Kim has spilled her story.
屏幕淡出并切回主教，暗示时间已经过去，金已经泄露了她的故事。
What you've told me, Kim, is very serious.
金，你告诉我的话非常严肃。
Yeah, but I'm not involved with that guy anymore.
是的，但我已经不再和那个人有任何关系了。
It's not a problem now.
现在这不是问题了。
The bishop tells her that this is much more severe than she thinks.
主教告诉她，情况比她想象的要严重得多。
I can't have a temple recommend?
没有推荐的寺庙吗？
But the wedding is coming up.
但婚礼即将来临。
The announcements have been sent out.
公告已经发出。
My dress is paid for.
我的衣服是付钱的。
We saw this film a lot, and the cutaway really made an impression.
这部电影我们看了很多遍，剪辑确实给我们留下了深刻的印象。
My classmates and I would be like, what do you think she said?
我和我的同学会问，你认为她说了什么？
So when my bishop first asked me about masturbating when I was 14, it seemed appropriate for us to have an explicit conversation.
因此，当我 14 岁时，我的主教第一次问我关于自慰的问题时，我们进行一次明确的对话似乎是合适的。
We were just living in the cutaway.
我们只是生活在剖面图里。
So I told all.
所以我把一切都说了。
I couldn't lie to the bishop.
我不能对主教撒谎。
That would be like lying to God.
那就像对上帝撒谎一样。
And I was taught that any sexual act I committed before marriage was the second most serious sin next to murder.
我被告知，我在婚前犯下的任何性行为都是仅次于谋杀的第二大罪。
It was terrifying.
太可怕了。
I masturbated once when I was 12.
我12岁时手淫过一次。
I wasn't even aware of what I was doing.
我什至不知道自己在做什么。
I just knew something unusual happened.
我只知道发生了一些不寻常的事情。
Two years later, I learned the church's position on masturbation, which is that it's almost as bad as sex.
两年后，我了解到教会对手淫的立场，那就是手淫几乎和性一样糟糕。
And I knew sex was almost as bad as murder.
我知道性几乎和谋杀一样糟糕。
When I connected the dots, I was devastated.
当我把这些点联系起来时，我感到很震惊。
Unless I repented, I was told I'd be separated from my family in the afterlife, because no unclean thing is allowed in heaven.
除非我悔改，否则我被告知在来世我将与家人分离，因为天堂不允许有不洁的事物。
So I go tell the bishop.
所以我去告诉主教。
But, of course, I'd masturbate again.
但是，当然，我会再次手淫。
And each time, I'd immediately be hit with the thought that I was being so selfish.
每一次，我都会立即想到自己是如此自私。
Why would I choose this feeling over my family?
为什么我会选择这种感觉而不是我的家庭？
The only way to undo it, to get my family back, was to confess.
挽回这一切、让我的家人回来的唯一方法就是坦白。
My dad was a bishop for five years.
我父亲当了五年主教。
When I told him recently about the questions my siblings and I were asked, it upset him.
当我最近告诉他我和我的兄弟姐妹被问到的问题时，他感到很不安。
He told me he'd never asked anyone those questions, and didn't remember being asked them as a kid.
他告诉我他从来没有问过任何人这些问题，也不记得小时候被问过这些问题。
So when exactly did bishops start asking these detailed and embarrassing questions?
那么主教们到底是什么时候开始提出这些详细而尴尬的问题的呢？
I talked to three different historians, all Mormon, but independent of the church.
我与三位不同的历史学家交谈过，他们都是摩门教徒，但独立于教会。
And they said the answer was simple.
他们说答案很简单。
The shift started happening in the '70s.
这种转变始于 20 世纪 70 年代。
It was the church's reaction to the sexual revolution.
这是教会对性革命的反应。
They were worried about promiscuity.
他们担心乱交。
Someone at MormonLeaks, our version of WikiLeaks, put me in touch with a historian who has a collection of old church manuals that are written specifically for bishops.
摩门解密（我们的维基解密版本）的某人让我联系了一位历史学家，他收集了专门为主教编写的旧教会手册。
Before the 1970s, the manuals told bishops to search for, quote, "immoral or un-Christianlike practices." They don't spell it out with a lot of details.
20 世纪 70 年代之前，手册要求主教寻找、引用“不道德或非基督教的做法”。他们没有详细说明这一点。
But then in 1975, explicit questions first appear in a bishop's guide which tells bishops to ask prospective missionaries and other young adults whether they've been involved in, quote, "any of the following-- pre or extramarital sexual intercourse, homosexual practices, sexual deviations, petting--" then in parentheses, "the fondling of another's body, and masturbation.
但随后在1975年，明确的问题首次出现在主教指南中，该指南告诉主教询问未来的传教士和其他年轻人是否参与过，引用，“以下任何一种行为——婚前或婚外性行为，同性恋行为，性偏差，抚摸——”然后在括号中，“抚摸他人的身体和手淫。
Hesitation or uneasiness may suggests that a question needs to be pursued further." End quote.
犹豫或不安可能表明某个问题需要进一步探讨。”结束报价。
When I read this, I was blown away.
当我读到这篇文章时，我大吃一惊。
I felt like, here it is, the blueprint for the system I grew up in.
我觉得这就是我成长的系统的蓝图。
That was 1975.
那是1975年。
Worthiness interviews with young people officially began in the 1980s.
对年轻人的价值访谈正式开始于 20 世纪 80 年代。
And in the '90s, a pamphlet came out which bishops were told to use in those interviews.
上世纪九十年代，出版了一本小册子，主教们被要求在这些采访中使用该小册子。
It was called "For the Strength of Youth." On the cover there was a black and white drawing of a bunch of teenagers, girls with perms and shoulder pads, boys who looked popular.
它被称为“为了青春的力量”。封面上是一群青少年的黑白画，有烫发垫肩的女孩，也有看起来很受欢迎的男孩。
You got one when you turned 12.
当你12岁的时候你就得到了一个。
I loved mine.
我爱我的。
Anyway, the pamphlet included a list of forbidden sexual acts like petting, masturbation, and also just thinking too much about sex.
不管怎样，这本小册子列出了一系列禁止的性行为，比如抚摸、手淫，以及对性想得太多。
The church encouraged bishops to discuss the specific acts listed in the pamphlet during their interviews with young people.
教会鼓励主教在采访年轻人时讨论小册子中列出的具体行为。
And they were free to ask whatever follow-ups they felt they needed to.
他们可以自由地询问他们认为需要的任何后续行动。
This is how the system still works today.
这就是该系统至今仍然运作的方式。
I had a feeling of love for my bishops.
我对我的主教有一种爱的感觉。
I still do.
我仍然这样做。
They were seen as the father of our congregation.
他们被视为我们会众的之父。
You felt like you knew them and they knew you.
你感觉你认识他们，他们也认识你。
They'd ask about your classes at college or follow up on your daily life.
他们会询问你在大学的课程或跟进你的日常生活。
When my father was a bishop, I watched him volunteer his time in between a hectic work schedule and home life to help people find apartments, pay for groceries, be their grief counselor, visit them when they were sick.
当我父亲还是一名主教时，我看到他在繁忙的工作日程和家庭生活之间自愿抽出时间帮助人们寻找公寓、支付杂货费用、成为他们的悲伤顾问、在他们生病时探望他们。
He genuinely loved and helped these people because he cared about them.
他真诚地爱并帮助这些人，因为他关心他们。
And my bishops cared about me.
我的主教很关心我。
I felt relieved when I left the office.
离开办公室后，我感到如释重负。
Repenting to them lifted the weight of the guilt I'd been carrying.
向他们忏悔减轻了我一直以来的负罪感。
And often, it felt like they were just as uncomfortable asking the questions as I was answering them.
通常，感觉他们问问题和我回答问题一样不舒服。
But regardless of the intention or behavior of any one bishop, bishop interviews followed me into every sexual encounter.
但无论任何一位主教的意图或行为如何，主教采访都会跟随我进入每一次性接触。
All the women I spoke to had this same problem.
我采访过的所有女性都有同样的问题。
For example, I learned that my bishops were more lenient if I wasn't the person initiating.
例如，我了解到，如果我不是发起者，我的主教会更加宽容。
So when I was with guys, I'd strategically make sure they made every move, which meant I was constantly leaning against walls, pressing my boobs out and telepathically communicating, please sir, just touch one boob.
所以当我和男人在一起时，我会策略性地确保他们做出每一个动作，这意味着我不断地靠在墙上，伸出我的胸部并进行心灵感应交流，先生，请触摸一个胸部。
But even now in my 30s, I have a really hard time with sex.
但即使现在我已经30多岁了，我在性方面仍然感到非常困难。
Shocker.
令人震惊。
I'm no longer Mormon.
我不再是摩门教徒了。
I haven't been for eight years.
我已经八年没去过了。
And still, when I fool around with someone, there's a voice in my head that keeps track of what I'm doing, like a ref docking points for each progressive move.
尽管如此，当我和某人鬼混时，我的脑海里仍然有一个声音跟踪我在做什么，就像每个渐进动作的参考对接点一样。
The only way to get this voice to shut up is to leave my body.
让这个声音闭嘴的唯一方法就是离开我的身体。
So I'm there, but not there.
所以我在那里，但又不在那里。
The following morning, I wake up to this voice telling me all the things I've done wrong.
第二天早上，我醒来时听到这个声音告诉我我做错的所有事情。
This leads to panic and anxiety.
这会导致恐慌和焦虑。
And it's not like I just feel bad for a minute.
我并不是只是感觉难过一分钟。
The feeling lingers for days.
这种感觉持续了好几天。
Writing this story, I've realized something I never put together until now.
写这个故事时，我意识到了一些我以前从未整理过的事情。
I still feel bad for losing my virginity before I got married.
我仍然为结婚前失去童贞感到难过。
I was 28.
那年我28岁。
I wanted to do it the right way.
我想以正确的方式去做。
I'd made promises to God, and to the people in my life that I'd wait for marriage.
我向上帝和我生命中的人许诺，我会等待婚姻。
I wanted so badly to live up to their expectations.
我非常想达到他们的期望。
And when I made the choice to have sex, I knew what it meant.
当我选择发生性行为时，我知道这意味着什么。
I made it knowing I would lose my family for eternity, my community, and my religion.
我知道我将永远失去我的家人、我的社区和我的宗教信仰。
And in spite of all that, I still did it.
尽管如此，我还是这么做了。
And what kind of a person does that make me?
这让我成为一个什么样的人？
This is what I feel every time I have sex.
这就是我每次做爱时的感受。
I've wondered how much of this is related to these bishop interviews.
我想知道这有多少与这些主教采访有关。
And I asked a few people how they thought it impacted them.
我问了一些人，他们认为这对他们有何影响。
A couple women said it was easier to have sex if they didn't feel pleasure.
一对女性表示，如果她们没有感到快感，做爱会更容易。
The guilt was directly linked to enjoying it.
内疚感与享受它直接相关。
This woman, Courtney, said something I related to a lot.
这位名叫考特尼的女士说了一些与我息息相关的话。
Having wine before you have sex, or even smoking weed is the only way to get around it-- is if you alter your mind.
在发生性行为之前喝点酒，甚至吸食大麻是解决这个问题的唯一方法——前提是你改变主意。
And how much of that directly ties to that interview at 18?
其中有多少与 18 岁时的那次采访有直接关系？
I think constantly having to account to an extraordinarily judgmental outsider about your sex life leaves an external voice.
我认为，不断地向一个对你的性生活做出极其挑剔的局外人解释会留下一个外部声音。
Like, you know how there's like an angel and a devil in cartoons who are always on your shoulder?
就像，你知道动画片里有一个天使和一个魔鬼总是在你的肩膀上吗？
I think there's always like an old man on our shoulders as Mormon women.
我认为作为摩门教女性，我们的肩膀上总是有一位老人。
This has consequences.
这会产生后果。
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is the sex therapist I talked to.
詹妮弗·芬利森-法夫博士是我采访过的性治疗师。
She's a practicing Mormon and has had hundreds of patients who are current or former members of the church.
她是一名虔诚的摩门教徒，曾接待过数百名现任或前任该教会成员的患者。
She said some Mormon women, not all, learned from their bishop interviews to defer to an authority figure when it comes to sex.
她说，一些摩门教妇女（不是全部）从主教访谈中学会了在性方面要服从权威人物。
Of course, other parts of the religion reinforce that lesson, too.
当然，宗教的其他部分也强化了这一教训。
And these women, during sex, they think about what the man they're with wants or what their bishop would think.
这些女性在做爱时会考虑与她们在一起的男人想要什么，或者她们的主教会怎么想。
They don't think about what they want.
他们不会考虑自己想要什么。
This shuts their sexuality down.
这会关闭他们的性欲。
I mean some LDS women really see it as a dangerous thing, that sex and desire in and of itself is dangerous to their goodness and dangerous to their identity as a good woman, and to their perception of the ideals of what a good LDS woman does.
我的意思是，一些摩门教女性确实认为这是一件危险的事情，性和欲望本身对她们的善良是危险的，对她们作为一个好女人的身份是危险的，对她们对一个好摩门教女性所做的理想的看法也是危险的。
And so they shut it down in a more fundamental way or don't develop it in a more fundamental way.
因此，他们以更根本的方式关闭它，或者不以更根本的方式开发它。
And then, the task of awakening it in marriage feels almost impossible.
然后，在婚姻中唤醒它的任务感觉几乎是不可能的。
Of course, shutting down means different things.
当然，关闭意味着不同的事情。
A lot of the women I talked to said that during sex, they leave their bodies, can't even tell what they want.
我采访过的很多女性都说，在性爱过程中，她们离开了自己的身体，甚至无法说出自己想要什么。
Rebecca was one of the women who told me she enjoys sex.
丽贝卡是告诉我她喜欢性的女性之一。
But she still feels held back.
但她仍然感到受到阻碍。
She's a practicing Mormon, and she did it the right way.
她是一名虔诚的摩门教徒，而且她以正确的方式做到了这一点。
Married a Mormon, waited till marriage to have sex.
嫁给了摩门教徒，等到结婚才发生性行为。
I still sometimes will have a feeling of I'm being dirty or slutty if I enjoy this too much, or if I get too into this.
如果我太喜欢这个，或者如果我太投入这个，有时我仍然会有一种肮脏或放荡的感觉。
Because I feel like somehow, the only pure way to have an orgasm is to be thinking about my husband, who I'm married to for eternity, and our love and worthiness before God.
因为我觉得不知何故，获得性高潮的唯一纯粹的方式就是想着我的丈夫，我与他永远结婚，以及我们在上帝面前的爱和价值。
I don't think having those thoughts, for me, is that sexy.
我不认为有这些想法对我来说有那么性感。
I don't want to think about my relationship to God.
我不想思考我与上帝的关系。
What I've started to realize these bishop interviews did to me was I had no space for privacy of any sexual thought.
我开始意识到这些主教采访对我的影响是我没有任何空间来表达任何性思想的隐私。
So if I had a sexual thought, God was eavesdropping and heard it.
所以如果我有性的想法，上帝就会偷听并听到。
I have to be like, oh, no, turn the thought off.
我必须说，哦，不，关掉这个想法。
Stop, stop, stop.
停下来，停下来，停下来。
This is not allowed.
这是不允许的。
Yeah.
是的。
But I don't blame you for feeling that way, because that's some of our cultural and social programming.
但我不会责怪你有这种感觉，因为这是我们的一些文化和社会规划。
I don't think it's intentional.
我不认为这是故意的。
I don't think anybody sat there and thought, let's give these women these huge hang ups they're gonna struggle with the rest of their lives.
我认为没有人坐在那里想，让我们给这些女性带来巨大的困扰，她们将在余生中挣扎。
But it happened.
但它发生了。
Right, they didn't plan to give us these hangups.
是的，他们并不打算给我们带来这些麻烦。
But they did plan to scare the bejesus out of children about sex, in a way that gave us huge hang ups.
但他们确实计划让孩子们对性感到恐惧，这让我们感到非常困惑。
I wanted to talk to the church about this to understand how it views the bishop interviews today, after the Sam Young controversy.
我想与教会讨论此事，以了解在萨姆·杨争议之后，教会如何看待今天的主教采访。
To see if officials really grasp how much their policies had impacted us, and if the church is rethinking these practices.
看看官员们是否真正了解他们的政策对我们的影响有多大，以及教会是否正在重新考虑这些做法。
LDS officials haven't given interviews on this in the past.
LDS 官员过去没有就此接受过采访。
But the director of Media Relations for the church, Eric Hawkins, agreed to talk.
但教会媒体关系总监埃里克·霍金斯同意谈话。
I told him what I'd learned from my interviewees, that these bishop interviews had stayed with us.
我告诉他我从受访者那里了解到的情况，这些主教采访一直留在我们身边。
I think what you have found is a selection of individuals who have perhaps had that experience, or that feeling, whereas tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of others have felt very differently about the process, and about-- so as I say, from my perspective, it is always heartbreaking when I hear that someone leaves that conversation not having had that experience.
我认为你发现的是一些可能有过那种经历或那种感觉的人，而数以万计、数十万的其他人对这个过程有非常不同的感觉，所以正如我所说，从我的角度来看，当我听到有人在没有那种经历的情况下离开谈话时，总是令人心碎。
Are these questions supposed to be that explicit?
这些问题应该这么明确吗？
I think that would depend a little bit on the situation.
我认为这在一定程度上取决于具体情况。
One of the pieces of counsel that bishops are given is to not be too invasive, to adapt the conversation to the understanding and maturity of the young person who is there.
主教们得到的建议之一是不要太具有侵略性，要根据在场年轻人的理解和成熟程度调整对话。
And I think it's not necessary for a bishop to be overly explicit or probing in those questions.
我认为主教没有必要对这些问题过于明确或探究。
He wants to understand how that individual feels about what they have done, so that he can help apply the right amount of repentance, if you will.
他想了解那个人对自己所做的事情有何感受，这样他就可以帮助你进行适当的悔改，如果你愿意的话。
Eric says the church strongly believes that these bishop interviews with kids are a crucial part of its mission to help young people develop a close relationship with God by teaching them the standards for living a good and moral life.
埃里克说，教会坚信，主教对孩子们的采访是其使命的重要组成部分，即通过教导年轻人过良好和道德生活的标准来帮助他们与上帝建立密切的关系。
I pointed out to him that under the church's current guidelines, a bishop is still free to ask whatever explicit questions he wants.
我向他指出，根据教会目前的指导方针，主教仍然可以自由地提出他想要提出的任何明确的问题。
And inappropriate questions still seem to be happening.
而且不恰当的问题似乎仍在发生。
I mean, I guess what's the downside to making it super clear what they can and can't ask?
我的意思是，我想让他们非常清楚地知道他们可以问什么和不能问什么有什么缺点？
Well, I think the conversation needs to be according to the understanding of that young person.
嗯，我认为谈话需要根据那个年轻人的理解。
You may have a young woman who is 11 years old, or 12 years old, 13 years old, who is completely innocent.
你可能有一个11岁、12岁、13岁的年轻女子，她是完全无辜的。
You may have one of her counterparts who is of the same age, but very, very mature in her thinking, and the ways of the world, and so forth.
你可能有一位与她同龄的同行，但她的思想、处事方式等等都非常非常成熟。
And so the conversation would be very different for those two individuals.
因此，对于这两个人来说，对话将会非常不同。
And that's what's outlined in the guidelines for bishops, as far as interviews.
就采访而言，这就是主教指南中概述的内容。
In other words, bishops need the flexibility to ask whatever they think is needed.
换句话说，主教需要灵活地提出他们认为需要的任何问题。
He pointed out the church did revise its guidelines for bishop interviews this year to allow parents to be in the room and to share with the parents the basic topics that they'll cover beforehand.
他指出，教会今年确实修改了主教采访的指导方针，允许家长在场，并与家长分享他们事先将讨论的基本话题。
I think this is a church that is always growing, and learning, and looking to do better.
我认为这是一个不断成长、不断学习、并寻求做得更好的教会。
And I think there was seen an opportunity to improve the interactions between young people and bishops.
我认为这是改善年轻人和主教之间互动的机会。
And so those guidelines were set.
这些指导方针就这样制定了。
And is that because the way that questions were asked before were wrong?
是不是因为之前提问的方式不对？
No, I don't think so.
不，我不这么认为。
I think it's a learning process.
我认为这是一个学习的过程。
I think the way that the church is taking accountability is by constantly seeking to improve.
我认为教会承担责任的方式是不断寻求改进。
You specifically said the word accountability.
你特别提到了责任这个词。
And I think that the church needs accountability in acknowledging that this process caused harm.
我认为教会需要承担责任，承认这一过程造成了伤害。
I think that what the church is trying to do is to constantly improve, to look for ways in which this can be made better.
我认为教会正在努力做的是不断改进，寻找可以做得更好的方法。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Eric Hawkins That those interactions can improve.
埃里克·霍金斯认为这些互动可以改善。
But I guess what I'm saying is in order to improve, there needs to be an admission.
但我想我所说的是为了提高，需要承认。
It feels a little like an argument I might get in with a boyfriend, or my husband, where I'm like-- so can you tell me that you did something wrong?
这感觉有点像我可能会和男朋友或我丈夫发生争执，我就像——所以你能告诉我你做错了什么吗？
And they're like, I'll do better.
他们说，我会做得更好。
And you're like, no, but first you have to tell me you did something wrong.
你会说，不，但首先你必须告诉我你做错了什么。
And then it's like, no, I'll do better.
然后就好像，不，我会做得更好。
And it's like, will you just tell me, just so I know that you know that this was wrong?
就像，你能告诉我吗，这样我就知道你知道这是错误的？
I've had those conversations with my wife, too.
我也和我的妻子有过这样的谈话。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
And so do you understand what I'm asking?
那么你明白我在问什么吗？
I do.
我愿意。
I do.
我愿意。
Elna Baker And do you understand why it's important to me to hear that?
埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）：你明白为什么听到这个对我来说很重要吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And I think, as I said, were you to come into my office as your bishop or stake president, I would sit down and council with you, and make sure you understood-- and we would understand together, why did you feel that way?
我想，正如我所说，如果你作为你的主教或支联会主席来到我的办公室，我会坐下来与你商议，并确保你理解——我们会一起理解，你为什么有这样的感觉？
What were you feeling?
你有什么感觉？
And how can we make you feel better?
我们怎样才能让你感觉更好？
But what I can't do is go back and change your experience, your perception, your feelings that you had at that time.
但我不能做的是回去改变你当时的经历、你的看法、你的感受。
Before I was baptized at the age of eight, I had to meet with the bishop.
在我八岁受洗之前，我必须去见主教。
He said that I was going to be accountable for my sins from this moment on.
他说从这一刻起我要为我的罪负责。
He explained this using a dry erase board.
他用一块干擦板解释了这一点。
You'll commit sins.
你会犯下罪孽。
He drew big black blobs across the white backdrop.
他在白色背景上画了一些黑色的大斑点。
But you can repent.
但你可以悔改。
He took an eraser and wiped the board until it was white again.
他拿起一块橡皮，把木板擦得又白又白。
This was a speech a lot of Mormon kids got.
这是很多摩门教孩子都听到的演讲。
Back when I was in the church, I was hooked on the feeling I got when my bishops told me I was forgiven, and clean again.
当我在教堂的时候，当我的主教告诉我我被宽恕并再次干净时，我对这种感觉着迷。
I could never sit with the discomfort I felt over my sexuality.
我永远无法忍受因性取向而感到的不适。
And look, I no longer believe that these men speak for God or have any authority over me.
看，我不再相信这些人代表上帝说话，也不相信他们对我有任何权威。
But I can't shake the feeling of wanting to be clean, to have someone else who knows tell me I'm OK.
但我无法摆脱想要保持干净的感觉，想要让其他知道我的人告诉我我很好。
I probably should accept that there is no way that board is going to stay white.
我可能应该接受这样的事实：董事会不可能保持白色。
Why would I even want it to?
我为什么想要它？
What's so bad about drawing on it?
在上面画画有什么不好呢？
Isn't that what it's for?
这不就是为了这个吗？
But then, the second I think this, I hear another voice, "such is the way of an adulterous woman-- she eateth and wipeth her mouth and sayeth, I have done no wickedness." That's what my bishops taught me.
但是，当我想到这一点时，我听到另一个声音：“这就是淫妇的行为——她吃了，擦了嘴，说，我没有做恶。”这就是我的主教教我的。
Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up, something that might happen to you in the hospital that you would probably be unhappy about, and you would never know that it happened.
接下来，你在医院里可能会发生一些你可能会不高兴的事情，而且你永远不会知道它发生了。
Details in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，芝加哥公共广播电台将立即提供详细信息。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program-- "But That's What Happened," stories of women in situations where something unsettling happens.
今天的节目——“但这就是发生的事情”，讲述女性在发生令人不安的情况时的故事。
And sometimes, it is even hard to explain what felt wrong.
有时，甚至很难解释什么感觉不对。
And it takes a while to sort out the truth.
并且需要一段时间才能弄清楚真相。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2-- "While You Were Out." Lilly Sullivan has this story of something that happens to women without their consent.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕——“当你外出时”。莉莉·沙利文（Lilly Sullivan）有一个关于未经女性同意而发生在女性身上的事情的故事。
And they usually never find out that it happened.
他们通常永远不会发现这件事发生了。
Here's Lilly.
这是莉莉。
About 10 years ago, Dan Wainberg was a medical student in Canada.
大约 10 年前，丹·温伯格 (Dan Wainberg) 是加拿大的一名医科学生。
It was his first year working in a hospital shadowing doctors.
这是他在医院跟随医生工作的第一年。
One day he goes to his first gynecological surgery.
有一天，他第一次接受妇科手术。
He had never been in a gynecological operating room before.
他以前从未进过妇科手术室。
So I came into the room with the patient already under a general anesthetic, so sedated, not conscious.
于是我走进房间，病人已经接受了全身麻醉，处于镇静状态，没有意识。
That's routine.
这是例行公事。
The patient is usually under by the time the surgeon arrives.
当外科医生到达时，患者通常已经处于虚弱状态。
So the lead surgeon did a pelvic exam on her, also routine, and then turned to Dan and said, now you try.
因此，首席外科医生对她进行了盆腔检查，也是常规检查，然后转向丹说，现在你试试。
And the gynecologist sent me over to the bed to do a pelvic exam on this woman.
妇科医生让我到床上为这个女人做盆腔检查。
Dan had done a couple pelvic exams before, but never on somebody who was unconscious.
丹以前做过几次骨盆检查，但从未对失去知觉的人进行过检查。
To do a pelvic exam, a doctor inserts their fingers into a patient's vagina to examine the cervix and uterus.
在进行骨盆检查时，医生将手指插入患者的阴道以检查子宫颈和子宫。
The doctor places another hand on the abdomen and presses down trying to catch the ovaries between the hand on the abdomen and the hand in the vagina to check for abnormalities.
医生将另一只手放在腹部并向下按压，试图抓住腹部的手和阴道内的手之间的卵巢，以检查是否有异常。
And while Dan was doing all this, the surgeon walked away.
当丹做这一切时，外科医生走开了。
And he went off to do something else.
然后他就去做别的事情了。
And so I was left there by myself doing a pelvic exam on an unconscious woman as someone who really didn't have a lot of knowledge of what I'm supposed to be feeling for.
于是我就被留在那儿，对一个失去知觉的女人进行骨盆检查，因为她对我应该有的感觉并不太了解。
And I thought to myself, who would consent to something like this?
我心想，谁会同意这样的事情呢？
And I know that my mind wandered to, if the woman knew what was going on, you know, that she'd probably be pretty upset, and justifiably so.
我知道我的思绪飘到了，如果那个女人知道发生了什么事，你知道，她可能会非常沮丧，而且这是理所当然的。
You know, I just thought, what am I doing?
你知道，我只是想，我在做什么？
And what would this woman think if she were to wake up right now?
如果这个女人现在醒来，她会怎么想？
As soon as this thought hit him, he stopped, walked away.
这个念头一闪而过，他就停了下来，转身走开。
I don't think anyone paid any attention to me whatsoever, including the surgeon who was supposed to be basically my supervisor, or teacher.
我认为没有人注意到我，包括基本上应该是我的主管或老师的外科医生。
After that surgery, well, I felt so uncomfortable with the initial exam that I mustered up the courage to talk to the surgeon, my supervisor.
手术后，我对最初的检查感到非常不舒服，所以我鼓起勇气与我的主管外科医生交谈。
And I asked him to please make sure, you know, from now on, just make sure they know I'm here.
我请他确保，你知道，从现在开始，确保他们知道我在这里。
And ask for their consent for me to do an exam.
并征求他们的同意让我去做检查。
I don't want to be-- yeah, I just felt like I didn't want that on my conscience.
我不想——是的，我只是觉得我的良心上不想那样。
It didn't feel good.
感觉不太好。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
How did he react?
他有何反应？
Dan Wainberg I think he just kind of brushed it off and said OK.
丹·温伯格（Dan Wainberg）我认为他只是对此置之不理并说“好吧”。
You know-- yeah, sure.
你知道——是的，当然。
The night after that first surgery, Dan was still really upset.
第一次手术后的那个晚上，丹仍然很沮丧。
So he called his older sister, Sarah.
于是他打电话给他的姐姐莎拉。
She was in med school, too, a year ahead.
她也提前一年进入医学院。
And she was like, yeah, so?
她说，是啊，所以？
I thought about all the times that I'd been asked to do the exact same thing.
我一直在想我被要求做同样的事情。
And when it happened to me, I didn't really think twice about it.
当这件事发生在我身上时，我并没有多想。
I actually thought, oh, this is a fantastic learning opportunity.
我实际上想，哦，这是一个绝佳的学习机会。
Because I found learning the pelvic exam a little awkward also.
因为我发现学习骨盆检查也有点尴尬。
So when the surgeon invited me to also do a pelvic exam, I thought, great.
因此，当外科医生邀请我也做骨盆检查时，我想，太好了。
I'd love to.
我喜欢。
And I don't think it had ever occurred to me even once that I might be doing something unethical.
我想我从来没有想过我可能会做一些不道德的事情。
It just seemed like a normal part of practice.
这似乎只是练习的正常部分。
It was kind of normal.
这很正常。
Pelvic exams are hard to learn.
骨盆检查很难学。
Frankly, under the best of circumstances, they're uncomfortable, awkward.
坦率地说，即使在最好的情况下，他们也会感到不舒服、尴尬。
So for years in teaching hospitals, a common way to train students was that when someone was unconscious during a gynecological surgery, the head surgeon would do the exam and then a student would repeat the exam for practice.
所以多年来在教学医院，培养学生的常见方式是，当有人在妇科手术中昏迷时，由主刀医生进行检查，然后由学生重复检查进行练习。
As far as consent goes, whenever anyone goes to a hospital, they sign an overall release form.
就同意而言，每当有人去医院时，他们都会签署一份全面的释放表格。
At a teaching hospital, which lots of hospitals are, there's a part on the form that says something like, I acknowledge that medical students may be part of my treatment team.
在教学医院（很多医院都是这样），表格上有一部分内容是这样的：我承认医学生可能是我的治疗团队的一部分。
That's what a teaching hospital is, teaching people how to do stuff.
这就是教学医院，教人们如何做事。
These kinds of exams aren't just a thing in Canada.
此类考试不仅仅是加拿大才有。
They're common in the US, too.
它们在美国也很常见。
Rectal exams happen the same way for men while they're unconscious during prostate surgery.
当男性在前列腺手术期间失去知觉时，直肠检查也会以同样的方式进行。
And the more Sara thought about it, she started to feel weird, too.
萨拉想得越多，她也开始觉得奇怪。
I think, actually, I probably felt a little bit embarrassed.
我想，实际上，我可能感到有点尴尬。
So my first reaction was just to say, oh, what did you do?
所以我的第一反应只是说，哦，你做了什么？
But in my head, I was thinking, oh, man.
但在我的脑海里，我在想，哦，伙计。
Why haven't I ever thought about this before?
为什么我以前没有想过这个问题？
And then how did you feel about that reaction now?
那么你现在对这种反应有何感受？
Do you have a different feeling about your initial--
你对最初的——有什么不一样的感觉吗？
Oh, yeah, no, I think it's horrifying, absolutely.
哦，是的，不，我认为这绝对是可怕的。
I think, like, what's wrong with me?
我想，我这是怎么了？
Why didn't this occur to me that I hadn't actually met this woman before?
为什么我没有想到我以前并没有真正见过这个女人？
And it never occurred to me.
我从来没有想到过。
And I think that's pretty horrible.
我认为这非常可怕。
Yeah, it's one of those dirty little secrets of medicine.
是的，这是医学上那些肮脏的小秘密之一。
After they hung up, Sara kept thinking about it, obsessing over the women, the patients getting these pelvic exams.
挂断电话后，萨拉一直在想这件事，痴迷于那些接受骨盆检查的女性和病人。
Do they know that this might happen under anesthesia?
他们知道这可能会在麻醉下发生吗？
And if not, how they feel about it?
如果没有，他们对此有何感想？
Sarah had to do a research project for school that year.
那年莎拉必须为学校做一个研究项目。
And she wanted to look at this.
她想看看这个。
I specifically started talking to my boyfriend about it.
我特意开始和我男朋友谈论这件事。
Because he had wanted to be my research partner.
因为他想成为我的研究伙伴。
And I said, oh, I've got this great idea.
我说，哦，我有这个好主意。
Let's do our research project on pelvic exams that are done without consent.
让我们对未经同意进行的骨盆检查进行研究项目。
And he said, no way.
他说，没门。
I do not want to be your research partner for that.
我不想成为你的研究伙伴。
Why?
为什么？
Sara He felt that the pelvic exam under anesthesia is an incredibly important learning opportunity for male students.
Sara He认为麻醉下的骨盆检查对于男学生来说是一个非常重要的学习机会。
And he thought that even by looking at this issue, we were opening up a big can of worms.
他认为，即使通过研究这个问题，我们也发现了一大堆蠕虫。
And he didn't want to have anything to do with it.
他不想与这件事有任何关系。
He thought it was wrong that I was even looking into this issue.
他认为我研究这个问题是错误的。
So you guys had some-- Sara We were not a match made in heaven.
所以你们有一些—— 萨拉 我们不是天作之合。
[LAUGHTER] Lilly Sullivan He never came around on that one.
[笑声] Lilly Sullivan 他从来没有同意这一点。
Sara found that most of her classmates had done exams like this, practice exams on anesthetized women.
莎拉发现她的大多数同学都做过这样的考试，在麻醉的女性身上进行模拟考试。
And lots of them had never really thought about it either until Sara pointed it out to them.
他们中的许多人也从未真正考虑过这一点，直到萨拉向他们指出为止。
Did you notice that women thought something different from men or was it all--
你有没有注意到，女性的想法与男性有所不同，或者只是——
Yes.
是的。
Yes, I think a lot of men felt the same way my boyfriend did, that this is how we're going to learn.
是的，我想很多男人和我男朋友有同样的感觉，这就是我们要学习的方式。
Because women don't always let us do this when they're awake.
因为女人在醒着的时候并不总是让我们这样做。
So we need to learn while they're asleep.
所以我们需要在他们睡觉的时候学习。
For sure.
一定。
The next year, she decided to survey a bunch of female patients at her teaching hospital and see what they said.
第二年，她决定对她的教学医院的一群女性患者进行调查，看看她们怎么说。
Did they know that medical students might do exams?
他们知道医学生可能会参加考试吗？
How did the women feel about it?
女性对此有何感受？
Do patients want to be asked for consent beforehand?
是否需要事先征求患者的同意？
No one had ever studied that before.
以前没有人研究过这一点。
At the time, I was like, come on, what's the big deal?
当时我就想，得了吧，有什么大不了的？
Let's ask the question and find out what the answer is.
让我们提出问题并找出答案。
I thought it's about time somebody really answers the question-- if you ask women, are they going to say yes?
我认为是时候有人真正回答这个问题了——如果你问女性，她们会答应吗？
Right?
正确的？
Are they going to say yes or are they going to say no?
他们会说“是”还是会说“不”？
That was the question that nobody had asked yet.
这是还没有人问过的问题。
Here's what Sara and her research partners found.
这是萨拉和她的研究伙伴的发现。
They polled 102 female surgery patients at their teaching hospital's pelvic floor disorder center.
他们对教学医院盆底疾病中心的 102 名接受手术的女性患者进行了调查。
So that's women who are likely to have had pelvic surgery or who were likely to have it in the near future.
这些女性可能已经接受过盆腔手术或可能在不久的将来接受盆腔手术。
The vast majority, 81% of them, had no idea that a med student might do a pelvic exam on them while they were asleep.
绝大多数（81%）的人不知道医学生可能会在他们睡觉时对他们进行骨盆检查。
And most said, yeah, they wanted to be asked.
大多数人说，是的，他们希望被问到。
And here's the most surprising thing they found.
这是他们发现的最令人惊讶的事情。
53% of women said they actually wouldn't mind being examined by a student while unconscious as long as someone asked them for permission beforehand.
53% 的女性表示，只要有人事先征得她们的许可，她们实际上不介意在失去意识的情况下接受学生的检查。
So a real find-- women would say yes.
所以这是一个真正的发现——女性会说是的。
All you had to do was ask.
您所要做的就是询问。
So just ask, right?
所以就问一下吧？
Problem solved.
问题解决了。
After Sara and her co-authors published their research, people flipped out.
萨拉和她的合著者发表了他们的研究后，人们大吃一惊。
The Globe and Mail wrote an article about it.
《环球邮报》就此写了一篇文章。
People were shocked to learn that this was something that went on at all.
人们惊讶地发现这样的事情竟然发生了。
Soon afterward, the medical guidelines in Canada changed.
不久之后，加拿大的医疗指南发生了变化。
The Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, also the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology revised their positions.
妇产科医师协会和妇产科教授协会修改了立场。
They said that doctor should always ask for specific consent for this kind of exam.
他们说，医生应该始终征求医生对此类检查的明确同意。
In the US, the American Medical Association, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the Association of American Medical Colleges, they've also condemned this kind of pelvic exam.
在美国，美国医学会、美国妇产科医师学会、美国医学院协会也对这种盆腔检查进行了谴责。
It's illegal in five states, Virginia, California, Hawaii, Illinois, and Oregon.
在弗吉尼亚州、加利福尼亚州、夏威夷州、伊利诺伊州和俄勒冈州这五个州，这是非法的。
A lot of teaching hospitals say they don't do it anymore, that it's a thing of the past.
许多教学医院表示他们不再这样做了，这已经成为过去式了。
But medical students say it still happens.
但医学生表示这种情况仍然会发生。
A couple of years ago, a biomedical ethicist named Phoebe Friesen had just started teaching medical ethics at Mount Sinai Medical School in New York.
几年前，一位名叫菲比·弗里森的生物医学伦理学家刚刚开始在纽约西奈山医学院教授医学伦理学。
The students who were following doctors in hospitals had to talk about ethical dilemmas in medicine.
在医院跟随医生的学生不得不谈论医学中的伦理困境。
And when I was working with students who were in their OB-GYN clerkship, a lot of them brought up this practice and the fact that they'd been asked to perform pelvic exams on women under anesthetic who hadn't consented.
当我与从事妇产科实习的学生一起工作时，他们中的很多人都提到了这种做法，以及他们被要求对未同意的麻醉下女性进行骨盆检查的事实。
And this one came up all the time, in nearly every session that I did.
这个问题几乎在我参加的每一次会议中都会出现。
And generally, everyone was often sort of seeking permission or consensus that this is OK.
一般来说，每个人都经常寻求许可或共识，认为这是可以的。
Wow, so all the students had experienced this?
哇，原来同学们都经历过这样的事？
Yeah, so I think as long as they were participating in gynecological surgeries, it was really the norm.
是的，所以我认为只要她们参加妇科手术，这确实是常态。
But I think a lot of them felt kind of confused or maybe ashamed.
但我认为他们中的很多人都感到有点困惑或者羞愧。
I think a lot of them were seeking reassurance that that was OK.
我想他们中的很多人都在寻求这样的保证：这没问题。
And I just ended up talking to so many who felt uncomfortable.
我刚刚和很多感到不舒服的人交谈过。
They were doing these pelvic exams at a bunch of different hospitals around New York City.
他们在纽约市的多家不同医院进行骨盆检查。
Phoebe had never heard anything about these kinds of exams.
菲比从来没有听说过这类考试。
She was horrified.
她吓坏了。
She started asking everyone, random students she'd meet at conferences, parties.
她开始询问每个人，随机询问她在会议、聚会上遇到的学生。
And she found that students had experienced it everywhere, at hospitals all over the country.
她发现学生们在全国各地的医院都经历过这种情况。
Because teaching hospitals take a lot of patients without insurance or who are on Medicaid, these practice exams end up being done disproportionately on poor women, women of color, homeless women.
由于教学医院接收了大量没有保险或享受医疗补助的患者，因此这些模拟考试最终主要针对贫困女性、有色人种女性、无家可归的女性。
Phoebe was surprised to learn there are a lot of people who are still in favor of it.
菲比惊讶地发现还有很多人仍然支持它。
And I think especially there was a lot of men who were dismissive, and there was a lot of people from within the medical community.
我认为尤其是有很多男性对此不屑一顾，而且有很多来自医学界的人。
Or a lot of people would say things like, well, what you don't know can't hurt you.
或者很多人会说，好吧，你不知道的东西不会伤害你。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Sara That kind of response, which I felt like was really, really weird.
萨拉 我觉得这种反应真的非常非常奇怪。
So she decided to dissect the ethics of it and put together an article for the Journal of Bioethics.
因此，她决定剖析其伦理学，并为《生物伦理学杂志》撰写一篇文章。
It's one of the leading journals in the field.
它是该领域的领先期刊之一。
She parsed out five common arguments in support of examining unconscious patients, evaluated each of them, and concluded that the practice is unethical.
她分析了五个支持检查失去知觉的病人的常见论点，对每个论点进行了评估，并得出结论认为这种做法是不道德的。
The response from doctors?
医生的反应？
Not so good.
不太好。
Some said these exams are necessary for teaching.
有人说这些考试对于教学来说是必要的。
Some said these exams never happen, which, of course, can't both be true.
有人说这些考试永远不会发生，当然，这不可能都是真的。
One argument Phoebe has heard a lot, the vagina is just a body part.
有一种说法菲比听过很多次，阴道只是身体的一部分。
.
。
Be a professional.
成为一名专业人士。
Don't be a prude.
别做一个正经的人。
She calls this the "is the vagina different from the mouth" objection.
她将此称为“阴道与嘴巴不同吗”异议。
Sara heard this one a lot when she was doing her research.
莎拉在做研究时经常听到这句话。
Here's Sara.
这是萨拉。
So who cares?
那么谁在乎呢？
This is just another exam.
这只是另一场考试。
This is just another thing that medical students do in the hospital.
这只是医学生在医院做的另一件事。
Why is it different than looking in someone's mouth, or looking at their hip?
为什么它与看某人的嘴或看他们的臀部不同？
How is this different?
这有何不同？
How is it different?
有什么不同？
Sara The thing that really makes it different is not what we, as doctors, think about it.
莎拉 真正让它与众不同的并不是我们作为医生所想到的。
The thing that makes it different is what the patients think about it.
让它与众不同的是患者的想法。
And if you ask women, they think it's different.
如果你问女性，她们会认为情况有所不同。
So it's different, yeah.
所以这是不同的，是的。
For me, I would want to know if somebody was going to be examining my vagina while I was asleep.
对我来说，我想知道是否有人会在我睡觉时检查我的阴道。
Absolutely, I would like to know.
当然可以，我很想知道。
I mean, I've been in that situation.
我的意思是，我曾经遇到过这种情况。
I've been there.
我去过那里。
I've been that crying woman waiting to go into surgery.
我就是那个等待接受手术的哭泣的女人。
So I understand what it feels like.
所以我明白那是什么感觉。
Sara has had gynecological surgery under anesthesia.
萨拉在麻醉下接受了妇科手术。
After a miscarriage.
流产后。
I've been in an operating room, asleep.
我在手术室里睡着了。
You're asleep in a cold operating room with your feet up in the air, and a bunch of strangers around you.
你在寒冷的手术室里睡着了，双脚悬在空中，周围有一群陌生人。
And you're exposed for all these people to see.
你就暴露在所有人面前。
It's very emotional.
非常感人。
Yeah, it is.
是的，确实如此。
Yeah, because you're very vulnerable when you're asleep.
是的，因为当你睡着的时候你非常脆弱。
I mean, before I delivered a baby, they asked me if I wanted a med student or a resident in the room.
我的意思是，在我生孩子之前，他们问我是否想要一名医学生或一名住院医师在房间里。
So I think if I'm asleep, I should be offered the same courtesy.
所以我想如果我睡着了，我应该得到同样的礼貌。
For this story, I wanted to talk to women who have been examined under anesthesia without their consent.
对于这个故事，我想与未经同意而接受麻醉检查的女性交谈。
But I couldn't find anyone.
但我找不到人。
These exams don't become part of a woman's medical records.
这些检查不会成为女性医疗记录的一部分。
They don't go into their charts at the hospital.
他们不会在医院查看病历。
And of course, this happens while they're unconscious.
当然，这发生在他们无意识的情况下。
So pretty much, by definition, anyone who's gone through this will probably never know.
所以，根据定义，任何经历过这一切的人可能永远不会知道。
Lilly Sullivan.
莉莉·沙利文。
[MUSIC -- "SISTERS UNARMED" BY 79.5]
[音乐——《手无寸铁的姐妹》79.5]
(SINGING) Why should I change 'cause the world is evil?
（唱）世界是邪恶的，我为什么要改变？
Why rearrange the way that I am?
为什么要重新安排我的样子？
Our program was produced today by Lilly Sullivan.
我们今天的节目由莉莉·沙利文制作。
The people who put together today's show includes Elna Baker, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Jarrett Floyd, Stephanie Foo, Damien Grave, Michelle Harris, David Kestenbaum, Anna Martin, Miki Meek, Stowe Nelson, Catherine Raimondo, Nadia Reiman, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
今天节目的制作人包括 Elna Baker、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Jarrett Floyd、Stephanie Foo、Damien Grave、Michelle Harris、David Kestenbaum、Anna Martin、Miki Meek、Stowe Nelson、Catherine Raimondo、Nadia Reiman、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our managing editor is Susan Burton.
我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿。
Special thanks today to Greg Prince, Matt Bowman, Taylor Petrey, Peggy Fletcher Stack, Louise Seamster, Alexandra Duncan, and Sue Ross.
今天特别感谢 Greg Prince、Matt Bowman、Taylor Petrey、Peggy Fletcher Stack、Louise Seamster、Alexandra Duncan 和 Sue Ross。
Our website-- thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 650 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 -- thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 650 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he and I ended up at this fancy party at the Kardashians' last week.
你知道，我和他上周参加了卡戴珊家族举办的这个豪华派对。
Some of his cocktail banter, I don't know, it was so awkward.
他的一些鸡尾酒玩笑，我不知道，太尴尬了。
Is there anything in your life, Kim, that hasn't been resolved with the proper priesthood authority?
金，你的生活中还有什么事情没有得到适当的圣职权柄解决吗？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。