658: The Unhappy Deciders - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #658 | October 5, 2018 658: The Unhappy Deciders Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 658 集 | 2018 年 10 月 5 日 658：不幸的决策者 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Remember when the news was boring, and politics was boring?
序言：序言 Ira Glass 还记得新闻无聊、政治无聊的时候吗？
That happened, right?
那件事发生了，对吗？
I'm not imagining that.
我不是这么想的。
You were there.
你当时就在那里。
I was there.
我在那里。
That happened in our lives.
这发生在我们的生活中。
I miss it.
我很想念它。
I didn't appreciate what a good thing it was when we had it.
当我们拥有它时，我并没有意识到这是多么好的事情。
I don't know about you, but me-- I've spent a full week obsessively reading about Judge Kavanaugh, and watching videos online, and calling people to discuss it.
我不了解你，但我——我花了整整一周的时间痴迷于阅读有关卡瓦诺法官的文章，观看在线视频，并打电话给人们讨论。
And I know this is just daily life in our totally divided country these days, but can I say, for me-- again, for me-- of all the moments we've had these last few years where red America and blue America look at the exact same event and come to radically different conclusions-- to me, this one feels the worst.
我知道这只是我们这个完全分裂的国家的日常生活，但我可以说，对我来说——再说一遍，对我来说——在过去几年我们经历过的所有时刻中，红色美国和蓝色美国看着完全相同的事件并得出截然不同的结论——对我来说，这一次感觉最糟糕。
I think because the original hearing itself with Dr. Ford and Judge Kavanaugh-- the testimony was just so long.
我想是因为福特博士和卡瓦诺法官最初的听证会本身——证词太长了。
It was so many hours.
已经过去了好几个小时了。
And then both witnesses were so emotionally raw that even watching it was emotional.
然后两位目击者的情感都如此原始，甚至观看它也很情绪化。
It was upsetting.
这令人心烦意乱。
And then since that hearing, we've had this week of waiting for the FBI report, which held us all for a week in that same state of agitation and disbelief-- Republican disbelief at the Democrats, Democrats' disbelief at the Republicans.
自从那次听证会以来，我们这一周都在等待联邦调查局的报告，这一周我们所有人都处于同样的激动和怀疑状态——共和党对民主党的不信任，民主党对共和党的不信任。
But even in moments like this one, there are people who haven't picked a side.
但即使在这样的时刻，也有人没有选择立场。
And incredibly, sometimes, those people are the ones who have to decide.
令人难以置信的是，有时这些人就是必须做出决定的人。
They have to cast a vote in the United States Senate.
他们必须在美国参议院投票。
And it does not seem fun for them.
这对他们来说似乎并不有趣。
Today on our show, we have somebody in that situation in our first act-- Arizona Senator Jeff Flake.
今天在我们的节目中，我们的第一幕就有一个处于这种情况的人——亚利桑那州参议员杰夫·弗莱克。
In our second act, we leave Washington behind.
在我们的第二幕中，我们将华盛顿抛在了后面。
We have somebody who's literally deciding on a man's life or death, with no real experience or understanding of how to do it.
我们有一个人真正决定一个人的生死，但没有真正的经验或不知道如何去做。
Both those people, having to make these huge decisions-- they are not comfortable at all.
这两个人，不得不做出这些重大决定——他们一点也不舒服。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One.
第一幕。
Judge.
法官。
So Senator Jeff Flake was one of the central players in the drama on Capitol Hill this last week.
因此，参议员杰夫·弗莱克（Jeff Flake）是上周国会山戏剧性事件的核心人物之一。
Turn on the TV and you'd see his tortured face.
打开电视，你会看到他饱受折磨的脸。
He dragged his decisions down to the wire over and over.
他一遍又一遍地将自己的决定拖到最后一刻。
He was undecided, then seemed like a no on Kavanaugh, then was a yes, then was a let's wait a week.
他犹豫不决，然后似乎对卡瓦诺表示“不”，然后是“是”，然后是让我们等一周。
It was Jeff Flake who made the Senate wait for a new FBI investigation.
是杰夫·弗莱克让参议院等待联邦调查局的新调查。
Then he was a yes again.
然后他又答应了。
Our producer, Zoe Chace, has spent a lot of time with Jeff Flake over the last year.
我们的制片人佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）去年与杰夫·弗雷克（Jeff Flake）一起度过了很多时间。
You may remember the hour-long episode she did, recording him for months as he tried to pass some kind of DACA bill.
你可能还记得她拍摄的长达一小时的节目，在他试图通过某种 DACA 法案时记录了他长达数月的时间。
And she was with him in the days before and after the Kavanaugh hearing, watching what he was going through and talking to him about how he made his choices.
在卡瓦诺听证会前后的几天里，她一直和他在一起，观察他正在经历的事情，并与他谈论他如何做出选择。
Here's Zoe.
这是佐伊。
The first thing I want to talk about is the elevator.
首先我要说的是电梯。
It's a big story-- how Jeff Flake changed his mind because two women accosted him on an elevator.
这是一个大故事——杰夫·弗莱克如何因为两个女人在电梯上搭讪而改变了主意。
I'm here to tell you that's not a true story.
我来这里是想告诉你这不是一个真实的故事。
That's not what changed his mind.
但这并没有改变他的想法。
Look at me when I'm talking to you!
我跟你说话的时候看着我！
You're telling me that my assault doesn't matter!
你是在告诉我，我的攻击并不重要！
I was there, right behind the women yelling.
我就在那里，就在那些大喊大叫的女人后面。
That's why my recording isn't as clear as what you heard on CNN.
这就是为什么我的录音不像你在 CNN 上听到的那么清晰。
I'm just staring at Flake, peering out from the elevator.
我只是盯着弗莱克，从电梯里往外看。
He had just stood me up for an interview.
他刚刚让我接受采访。
Jeff Flake's face can be a little deceiving.
杰夫·弗雷克（Jeff Flake）的脸可能有点具有欺骗性。
He looks kind of miserable a lot of the time when inside, he's just humming a little tune.
很多时候，他在里面时看起来有点痛苦，只是哼着小曲。
In this case, though, I think he was miserable.
但在这种情况下，我认为他很痛苦。
He had just released a statement saying he was going to vote for Kavanaugh.
他刚刚发表声明称他将投票给卡瓦诺。
He had dashed right past a bunch of CNN reporters, and around the corner to get to the elevator, to get to the vote.
他冲过一群 CNN 记者，转过拐角走向电梯，去投票。
And now he was stuck.
现在他被困住了。
You are allowing someone who is unwilling to take responsibility--
你正在允许一个不愿意承担责任的人——
--for his own actions-- Woman 2 Talk-- ma'am?
——为他自己的行为——女人2说话——女士？
--to sit in the higher court of the country.
——担任该国高等法院的法官。
And then he went to the meeting, where he asked for an FBI investigation for one week.
然后他去参加了会议，并要求联邦调查局进行为期一周的调查。
And what they said in that elevator door appears to have led a US senator to change his mind.
他们在电梯门里所说的话似乎让一位美国参议员改变了主意。
Their words have now reverberated around this country.
他们的话现在在全国引起反响。
Flake had declared that he would be voting for Kavanaugh's nomination.
弗莱克宣布他将投票支持卡瓦诺的提名。
Then he was confronted by a mob of screaming protesters, the youth wing of the Democratic Party.
然后他遇到了一群尖叫的抗议者，他们是民主党的青年派。
Jeff Flake crumbled.
杰夫·弗莱克崩溃了。
Archila was one of the two women in that confrontation with Senator Flake.
阿奇拉是与弗莱克参议员对峙的两名女性之一。
Good morning.
早上好。
Good morning.
早上好。
Woman When that elevator door closed with Senator Flake, did you think that history might change?
女人 当弗莱克参议员关上电梯门时，您是否认为历史可能会改变？
Archila and Maria Gallagher-- the other woman at the elevator-- they always hedge how influential they were.
阿奇拉·加拉格尔和玛丽亚·加拉格尔——电梯里的另一位女士——她们总是回避自己的影响力。
But lots of others don't.
但很多其他人则不然。
I'm reading things like, it was the elevator pitch that altered the trajectory of American history.
我读到的东西是这样的：电梯演讲改变了美国历史的轨迹。
An online site, "Support the heroes who convinced Flake," raised over $30,000 in a couple days.
一个名为“支持说服弗莱克的英雄”的在线网站在几天内筹集了超过 30,000 美元。
Lots of people love this version of events, and I think it's because they just want to believe protest works.
很多人喜欢这个版本的事件，我认为这是因为他们只是想相信抗议是有效的。
So much of these last two weeks has been people watching the same stuff on TV, and seeing what they want to see.
过去两周的大部分时间里，人们在电视上观看相同的内容，并看到他们想看到的内容。
Here's how I know that story about the elevator, about how it changed Jeff Flake's mind, is not true.
这就是我如何知道那个关于电梯的故事，关于它如何改变杰夫·弗莱克的想法的故事，不是真的。
First of all, I saw him shake his head no when asked about it by other reporters.
首先，当其他记者问及此事时，我看到他摇头表示“不”。
And did the women who confronted you this morning, did they have any role in changing your mind?
今天早上与你对峙的女性在改变你的想法方面发挥了作用吗？
Also, we talked about it.
另外，我们也讨论过。
Jeff Flake That wasn't the thing.
杰夫·弗莱克：事情不是这样的。
It was a thing.
这是一件事。
It was a thing-- just not the thing that convinced him.
这是一件事——只是没有说服他。
Protesters don't affect him like that.
抗议者不会那样影响他。
I've seen him confronted by protesters over the health care bill, the tax vote, the Dreamers.
我见过他因医疗保健法案、税收投票、梦想家而与抗议者对峙。
And for days now, the Capitol building has been choked with them.
几天来，国会大厦里一直挤满了他们。
They're stopping senators as they move through the halls-- sometimes chanting, sometimes telling horrific, very personal stories of sexual assault.
他们在参议员穿过大厅时拦住他们——有时高喊口号，有时讲述可怕的、非常个人化的性侵犯故事。
It's everywhere, and it's a lot.
它无处不在，而且数量很多。
Just the day before, Flake and I got in an elevator on the other side of the building.
就在前一天，弗莱克和我走进了大楼另一侧的电梯。
He was in the middle of a story about Lindsey Graham.
他正在讲一个关于林赛·格雷厄姆的故事。
Women jumped on the elevator with us.
妇女们和我们一起跳上电梯。
They wore "be a hero" T-shirts, and "I believe women" T-shirts.
她们穿着“成为英雄”T恤和“我相信女性”T恤。
They were filming him and calling out, "Do you believe women, Senator Flake?"
他们正在拍摄他并大声喊道：“弗莱克参议员，你相信女人吗？”
Do you believe them?
你相信他们吗？
Do you support women?
你支持女性吗？
We support women.
我们支持女性。
Woman 1 Do you believe women?
女人1 你相信女人吗？
We support women.
我们支持女性。
Woman 2 We support women.
女性 2 我们支持女性。
We believe women.
我们相信女性。
Woman 2 Do you believe women?
女人2 你相信女人吗？
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Woman 2 We believe survivors.
女人 2 我们相信幸存者。
Senator Flake?
弗莱克参议员？
What do you have to say?
你有什么要说的？
Please?
请？
Do you have something you can say to women right now, and the survivors?
您现在有什么话可以对女性和幸存者说吗？
Yes.
是的。
Woman 1 Are you going to do the right thing?
女人 1 你会做正确的事吗？
Because it's not your body!
因为那不是你的身体！
Zoe Chace Does it affect you when people yell at you like that?
Zoe Chace 当人们这样对你大喊大叫时，你会受到影响吗？
That's Flake making fun of himself.
那是弗莱克在取笑自己。
We've talked about this before.
我们之前已经讨论过这个问题。
Like lots of men his age, he doesn't connect too well to emotions.
和许多同龄人一样，他不太容易情绪化。
John McCain would have done the right thing.
约翰·麦凯恩会做正确的事。
And he walked into the hearing to listen to Dr. Ford and Judge Kavanaugh, not sure what to do.
他走进听证会，聆听福特博士和卡瓦诺法官的发言，但不知道该怎么办。
Before I explain what happened next, I want to just say, going into a day like this undecided is both very rare for a senator, and very rare for everyone in America right now.
在解释接下来发生的事情之前，我只想说，像这样犹豫不决的一天对于参议员来说非常罕见，对于现在的美国每个人来说都非常罕见。
I don't think being undecided could have been more scarce that day.
我不认为那天犹豫不决的情况会更加罕见。
Think about it.
想一想。
Do you know anybody who didn't already know who they would believe, and who they would not?
你认识的人中，有谁还不知道自己会相信谁、不会相信谁吗？
The one time he spoke in the hearing, he sounded just as unsure as he had going in.
有一次他在听证会上发言时，他的语气听起来就像他刚参加听证会时一样不确定。
And it was at the end of the day.
那是在一天结束的时候。
This is not a good process, but it's all we've got.
这不是一个好的过程，但这就是我们所拥有的一切。
And I would just urge my colleagues to recognize that, in the end, we are 21 very imperfect senators trying to do our best to provide advice and consent.
我只是敦促我的同事们认识到，归根结底，我们是 21 位非常不完美的参议员，正在尽力提供建议和同意。
And in the end, there is likely to be as much doubt as certainty going out of this room today.
最后，今天走出这个房间的疑问可能与确定性一样多。
And just have a little humility on that front.
在这方面要保持一点谦虚。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
If you watch the news, you know at least the outlines of what followed.
如果你看新闻，你至少知道接下来发生的事情的轮廓。
But just to explain-- because I think you can't understand what happens at the end with Jeff Flake unless you know what happens here-- the night after the Ford-Kavanaugh testimony, Thursday night, Flake stays up all night, freaking out over what to do.
但只是为了解释一下——因为我认为你无法理解杰夫·弗莱克最后会发生什么，除非你知道这里发生了什么——福特-卡瓦诺作证后的那个晚上，周四晚上，弗莱克彻夜未眠，为该怎么做而惊慌失措。
Some close friends told him about their own sexual assaults.
一些亲密的朋友向他讲述了自己的性侵犯经历。
He talked to advisors.
他与顾问交谈。
He talked to lawyers, going over what was said.
他与律师交谈，仔细研究了所说的话。
He found Ford credible and convincing, but he came back, over and over, to the fact that there was nothing corroborating her testimony.
他发现福特可信且令人信服，但他一遍又一遍地承认，没有任何东西可以证实她的证词。
No one else could put him in the room that night.
那天晚上没有人能把他放进房间里。
He found Kavanaugh credible also, and his anger wasn't as off-putting to him as I thought it might be.
他发现卡瓦诺也很可信，而且他的愤怒并不像我想象的那么令人反感。
His staff said they'd never seen him like this.
他的工作人员表示，他们从未见过他这样。
It was agonizing, I have to say.
我不得不说，这很痛苦。
It really was-- more so than anything, any decision, on a vote.
这确实是——比任何事情、任何决定都更重要的是投票。
I've had debates with staff, and discussions late last night, too.
我与工作人员进行了辩论，昨晚也进行了讨论。
And it was pretty raw, you know?
而且它很原始，你知道吗？
The next morning, of course, Flake finally releases the statement.
当然，第二天早上，弗莱克终于发表了声明。
He's going to vote yes on the judge.
他将对法官投赞成票。
Whatever you do, they say, in the end, you've got to come back to presumption of innocence.
他们说，无论你做什么，最终你都必须回归无罪推定。
He goes to the elevator, gets yelled at on TV, then to the committee meeting.
他走进电梯，在电视上被骂，然后又去参加委员会会议。
You know that part.
你知道那部分。
Meanwhile, Chris Coons, Democratic senator from Delaware, is on his way to the meeting with a bunch of reporters.
与此同时，来自特拉华州的民主党参议员克里斯·库恩斯（Chris Coons）正与一群记者一起前往参加会议。
And he gets the news that Flake's a yes.
他得到消息说弗莱克同意了。
He chokes up, reportedly, says, "Oh, fuck," and then, "We each make choices for our own reason.
据报道，他哽咽地说，“哦，操，”然后，“我们每个人都出于自己的原因做出选择。
I'm struggling.
我正在挣扎。
Sorry." A lot of tears in the Capitol those two days.
抱歉。”这两天国会大厦里流下了很多眼泪。
The meeting begins.
会议开始。
The two sides rail against each other.
两侧铁轨相互抵靠。
Flake's stressing, gets up and makes a call.
弗莱克感到压力很大，站起来打电话。
He probably checks Twitter, because he usually does.
他可能会查看 Twitter，因为他通常都会这样做。
But he says he did not see how viral the elevator video was going, and the bad PR of it.
但他表示，他并没有看到电梯视频的火爆程度以及其糟糕的公关效果。
He says he wasn't thinking about that at all.
他说他根本没有考虑过这个问题。
So he comes back.
所以他回来了。
And then Coons gives a speech at the committee meeting that he said was directed at one man-- Jeff Flake.
然后库恩斯在委员会会议上发表演讲，他说这是针对一个人的——杰夫·弗莱克。
They're actually friends.
他们其实是朋友。
They're on the Foreign Relations Committee together.
他们一起在外交关系委员会任职。
They've been all over Africa together, too.
他们也一起走遍了非洲。
And they have breakfast almost every week at the prayer breakfast.
他们几乎每周都会在祈祷早餐会上吃早餐。
Coons is Presbyterian, Flake reminds me, while he's a Mormon.
弗莱克提醒我，库恩斯是长老会教徒，而他是摩门教徒。
And there was something very Presbyterian, he said-- just unadorned and practical-- about the way Coons was speaking.
他说，库恩的说话方式有一种非常长老派的味道——朴实而实用。
And I will say, briefly, at the outset, that before yesterday began, I prayed.
首先，我要简单地说，在昨天开始之前，我祈祷了。
I prayed for Dr. Ford and her family.
我为福特博士和她的家人祈祷。
I prayed for Judge Kavanaugh.
我为卡瓦诺法官祈祷。
And I prayed for all who would watch yesterday, uncertain whether we could conduct ourselves respectfully.
我为昨天观看的所有人祈祷，不确定我们能否表现得尊重。
I know since the day that my Democratic colleagues and I learned of these allegations, we've had one consistent request-- to allow the FBI to investigate them in a nonpartisan, professional, even-handed manner, and deliver their findings to us so that we could reach a conclusion.
我知道，自从我和我的民主党同事得知这些指控的那一天起，我们就一直有一个一致的要求——允许联邦调查局以无党派、专业、公正的方式调查这些指控，并将调查结果提供给我们，以便我们得出结论。
Flake and I talked about that moment on the phone.
弗莱克和我在电话里谈论了那一刻。
That it had an impact, and the biggest impact, I'm sure.
我确信它产生了影响，而且是最大的影响。
That is far more accurate than this narrative out there that it was the protesters that moved it.
这比外面的说法（是抗议者推动了它）要准确得多。
That day at the meeting, Flake gets up, walks across the room, taps Coons on the shoulder, and they're on their way to a deal.
那天在会议上，弗莱克起身，走过房间，拍拍浣熊的肩膀，然后他们就开始达成协议了。
Later, he explained what was going through his head.
后来，他解释了他的想法。
I wasn't at peace with where I was.
我对自己所处的位置并不满意。
And when I got over there and then saw the food fight-- just resumption of yesterday's-- I said, we can't-- I can't do this.
当我到达那里然后看到食物大战时——昨天的比赛刚刚恢复——我说，我们不能——我不能这样做。
I know how this is being viewed out there, that people see this rush to judgment, and as Republicans move through and not look at the facts, and just try to get this done as quickly as possible-- and that's not good.
我知道人们如何看待这件事，人们看到这种急于做出判断的行为，而共和党人却在不顾事实的情况下采取行动，只是试图尽快完成这件事——这是不好的。
It's not good.
这不好。
Long term, look what it does to the institution, it's just horrible.
从长远来看，看看它对机构的影响，这太可怕了。
Preserving the integrity of the process on the Senate Judiciary Committee is a much less romantic story than the one about two survivors of sexual assault changing a senator's mind at the last second.
与两名性侵犯幸存者在最后一秒改变参议员想法的故事相比，维护参议院司法委员会程序的完整性并不是一个浪漫的故事。
That's what happened, though.
不过，事情就是这样发生的。
And finally, that day, the world sees Jeff Flake find a third way.
最后，在那一天，全世界看到杰夫·弗莱克找到了第三条路。
It's something he's been looking for for a long time on a lot of issues-- a way to vote with his Republican colleagues, but stand for certain principles with the Democrats.
这是他在很多问题上长期以来一直在寻找的东西——一种与共和党同事一起投票，但与民主党一起坚持某些原则的方式。
It's the weirdest niche.
这是最奇怪的利基市场。
But he's a weirdo right now-- a ghost Republican.
但他现在是个怪人——一个幽灵般的共和党人。
He doesn't really have a constituency he's speaking for, being anti-Trump but pro his policies.
他并没有真正代表自己的选民，他反对特朗普，但支持他的政策。
He's retiring from the Senate in a few months.
几个月后他将从参议院退休。
As he says, he could never have done something like this if he were still running for office.
正如他所说，如果他还在竞选公职，他永远不会做出这样的事情。
There's no value to reaching across the aisle, he says.
他说，跨越过道没有任何价值。
There's no currency for that anymore.
已经没有货币了。
If you do that, you'll lose.
如果你这样做，你就会输。
So there is not much crossing over to the other side ever, by anybody-- which is maybe why, when you do cross over, this is what happens.
因此，任何人都不会太多地穿越到另一边——这也许就是为什么当你穿越时，就会发生这样的事情。
How you doing, Senator?
你好吗，参议员？
Jeff Flake Doing well.
杰夫·弗莱克表现不错。
How are you?
你好吗？
God bless you.
上帝保佑你。
Jeff Flake Appreciate it.
杰夫·弗莱克很欣赏。
This is the consequence-- New York City loves Senator Jeff Flake.
这就是结果——纽约市喜欢参议员杰夫·弗莱克。
I know, because the day after the committee vote, I picked him up at Penn Station and got him a taxi.
我知道，因为委员会投票后的第二天，我到宾夕法尼亚车站接了他，并帮他叫了一辆出租车。
But I also called a car.
但我也叫了车。
Jeff Flake Oh, you did?
杰夫·弗莱克 噢，你做到了？
Because I was like, the Senator?
因为我想，参议员？
I don't know if he wants to wait in a taxi line.
我不知道他是否愿意排队等出租车。
I don't know if that's a thing you're used to doing.
我不知道你是否习惯这样做。
Yeah, I'll be all right.
是的，我会没事的。
Zoe Chace No Capitol police protection, no staff-- just me, and a lot of new Jeff Flake fans.
佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 没有国会警察的保护，没有工作人员——只有我和很多杰夫·弗莱克 (Jeff Flake) 的新粉丝。
Sure.
当然。
You bet.
你打赌。
Zoe Chace I end up taking pictures for them.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）最后我为他们拍了照片。
Do you think they know that you're going to vote for Kavanaugh?
你认为他们知道你会投票给卡瓦诺吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think that will all go away if I do.
我想如果我这样做的话，一切都会消失。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think people are so starved for any sign of bipartisanship.
我认为人们非常渴望任何两党合作的迹象。
I'm going to go ahead and say bipartisan, in New York, means you agree with the Democrats.
我要继续说，在纽约，两党合作意味着你同意民主党的观点。
This is all happening because on my way back to New York from Washington on Saturday, I ran into Chris Coons on Amtrak.
这一切之所以发生，是因为我周六从华盛顿返回纽约的路上，在美铁上遇到了克里斯·库恩斯。
He told me Flake was on the Acela right behind us.
他告诉我弗莱克就在我们后面的 Acela 上。
That Flake had invited himself, along with Coons, to the Global Citizen Concert at The Great Lawn in Central Park, broadcast live on MSNBC.
弗莱克邀请自己和库恩斯一起参加在中央公园大草坪举行的全球公民音乐会，该音乐会由 MSNBC 现场直播。
I can't think of a bluer place, to be honest-- a more on-the-nose location for the hashtag resistance.
老实说，我想不出比这更蓝的地方了——一个更适合主题标签抵抗的地方。
So I'm surprised to hear Flake's coming too, and I text him to see if I can go.
所以我很惊讶地听到弗莱克也来了，我给他发短信询问我是否可以去。
He gets me credentials, and I take him uptown.
他给了我证件，我带他去住宅区。
I get a little lost.
我有点迷失了。
Because I'm from here, I think I know where everything is, but I don't.
因为我来自这里，我想我知道一切都在哪里，但我不知道。
And then we're running across the 86th Street transverse.
然后我们就跑过 86 街横向。
Senator Flake?
弗莱克参议员？
Good work.
干得好。
Jeff Flake Thank you.
杰夫·弗莱克谢谢你。
And we head to a little trailer backstage to meet up with Chris Coons.
我们前往后台的一个小拖车与克里斯·库恩斯会面。
Outside, tens of thousands of people are already out on the lawn.
外面的草坪上已经有数万人了。
These two senators are going to deliver a short, impromptu speech about bipartisanship to this crowd.
这两位参议员将向听众发表关于两党合作的简短即兴演讲。
Can I ask you who's performing before them, and who's performing after?
我能问一下谁在他们之前表演，谁在他们之后表演吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Zoe Chace You guys are the opening act for Cardi B.
Zoe Chace 你们是 Cardi B 的开场表演。
I don't know if he knows who Cardi B is.
我不知道他是否知道Cardi B是谁。
This is where Flake's reaching across the aisle gesture gets epically surreal-- and it's hard to top how surreal the week has been already.
这就是弗莱克跨过过道的手势变得异常超现实的地方——这一周已经是多么超现实了。
All these famous people keep popping into the trailer.
所有这些名人都不断出现在预告片中。
What you did-- you're a hero.
你所做的——你是一个英雄。
And it's so funny that other people don't know how simple it is to be a hero.
而且很有趣的是，其他人不知道成为英雄是多么简单。
It's Robert Di Niro, who steps to Flake with a finger in his face, like a scene from Goodfellas.
是罗伯特·迪尼罗（Robert Di Niro）走到弗莱克面前，一根手指放在脸上，就像《好家伙》中的场景。
We rely on you.
我们依靠你。
Too much had gone down with this guy.
这个家伙已经承受了太多的打击。
He's got to go.
他得走了。
I know it's because they want the midterms, and this, and that.
我知道这是因为他们想要中期选举，还有这个、那个。
But we're beyond all that.
但我们超越了这一切。
We're beyond all that.
我们超越了这一切。
It's weird to hear Robert Di Niro say the word midterms.
听到罗伯特·迪尼罗说期中考试这个词很奇怪。
John Legend.
约翰·传奇.
John Legend I appreciate what you all did this week.
约翰·传奇 我很感谢你们本周所做的一切。
And we just know that we're all watching and hoping that you make the right decision for the country.
我们只知道我们都在关注并希望你为国家做出正确的决定。
OK?
好的？
That's all I'm saying.
我就是这么说的。
[LAUGHTER] You know how I feel about it.
[笑声]你知道我对此的感受。
The director Ava DuVernay.
导演艾娃·杜威内。
Ava Duvernay So thank you so much for listening to women.
Ava Duvernay 非常感谢您倾听女性的声音。
Katie Holmes and Suri.
凯蒂·霍尔姆斯和苏瑞。
Coons does not know who that is.
库恩斯不知道那人是谁。
That's great.
那太棒了。
Jeff Flake I don't know how to answer that question.
杰夫·弗莱克 我不知道如何回答这个问题。
Bring her on in.
带她进来。
Zoe Chace She's the actress who was--
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）她是一位女演员——
--married to Tom Cruise.
——嫁给汤姆·克鲁斯。
Chris Coons That's great.
克里斯·库恩斯 太棒了。
I've heard of him.
我听说过他。
I am so useless.
我真是太没用了。
Good to see you.
很高兴见到你。
Katie Holmes Thank you.
凯蒂·霍尔姆斯 谢谢你。
To be fair, neither of the senators seems to know who any of these people are-- except Di Niro.
公平地说，两位参议员似乎都不知道这些人是谁——除了迪尼罗。
Everyone wants a picture with the senators.
每个人都想与参议员合影。
Soon Coons and Flake are rushed towards the stage, continuing to be mobbed by the Hollywood resistance.
很快，库恩斯和弗莱克冲向舞台，继续被好莱坞抵抗力量包围。
Darren Aronofsky yells to them, "I'm a film maker.
达伦·阿罗诺夫斯基对他们大喊：“我是一名电影制片人。
I made Black Swan."
我创造了《黑天鹅》。”
I'm a filmmaker.
我是一名电影制片人。
I made Black Swan.
我拍了《黑天鹅》。
Thank you for everything you're doing right now.
感谢你现在所做的一切。
I go around to the front, to see how thousands of non-famous New Yorkers are receiving this still-Republican senator.
我绕到前面，看看成千上万名不出名的纽约人如何接待这位仍然是共和党的参议员。
Fuck you!
操你妈！
Jeff Flake --who have contacted us--
杰夫·弗莱克（Jeff Flake）——谁联系了我们——
That's a real New York "fuck you." The call for bipartisanship is drowned out by calls for Cardi B.
这才是真正的纽约“去你妈的”。对两党合作的呼声被对 Cardi B 的呼声淹没了。
We're standing here, united for democracy.
我们站在这里，为民主而团结。
Cardi!
卡迪！
Cardi!
卡迪！
Zoe Chace As soon as they're offstage, though, the star treatment starts again.
然而，一旦他们离开舞台，明星待遇又开始了。
The Reverend Al Sharpton catches him, like we're on a red carpet.
艾尔·夏普顿牧师接住了他，就像我们走在红地毯上一样。
Hey, Al.
嘿，艾尔。
Al Sharpton Senator Coons just called you a hero.
艾尔·夏普顿参议员·库恩斯刚刚称你为英雄。
Naw.
不。
Naw, he's the guy.
不，他就是那个人。
He's the guy.
他就是那个人。
He's the guy.
他就是那个人。
"Do you think we can bring this country together?" Al says.
“你认为我们能让这个国家团结起来吗？”艾尔说。
It's like a left-wing farce at this point.
此时此刻，这就像一场左翼闹剧。
Random bit players keep popping out to cast liberal spells.
随机的比特玩家不断出现，施展自由咒语。
Chris Martin, from Coldplay, gives Flake a magic pin of some sort to keep in his pocket.
酷玩乐队的克里斯·马丁给了弗莱克一枚某种神奇的别针，让他放在口袋里。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Jeff, here.
杰夫，在这里。
Take this.
拿这个。
Put it in your pocket in times of trouble.
遇到困难时将其放入口袋。
All right?
好的？
Thank you.
谢谢。
Oh!
哦！
Zoe Chace Flake drops it.
佐伊·切斯·弗莱克 (Zoe Chace Flake) 将其掉落。
Chris Martin leaves.
克里斯·马丁离开。
We have a moment to sit down.
我们有时间坐下来。
What is it like?
它是什么样的？
Jeff Flake It's intimidating.
杰夫·弗莱克（Jeff Flake）这太吓人了。
Was it?
是吗？
Jeff Flake Yeah.
杰夫·弗莱克 是的。
Well I mean, it's not something you know.
嗯，我的意思是，这不是你知道的事情。
This is different than a conference on Social Security reform or-- you know?
这与社会保障改革会议不同，或者——你知道吗？
It's not the Cato Institute.
这不是卡托研究所。
Jeff Flake Different.
杰夫·弗莱克不同。
No, it's not.
不，不是。
[LAUGHTER] Far from.
[笑声] 远非如此。
What's it like having people like Robert Di Niro and John Legend be like, you're a hero?
让像罗伯特·迪尼罗和约翰·传奇这样的人说你是英雄是什么感觉？
For a week-long FBI investigation?
联邦调查局（FBI）为期一周的调查？
Well, it'll last a week, too.
嗯，它也会持续一周。
My next vote, for Kavanaugh or for something they don't like, and I'm a pariah again.
我的下一次投票，要么投给卡瓦诺，要么投给他们不喜欢的东西，我又成了贱民。
Do you think they know you're still a Republican?
你认为他们知道你仍然是共和党人吗？
You know, I think probably so.
你知道，我想可能是这样。
You enjoy it while you can.
当你可以的时候，你会享受它。
[LAUGHTER] Zoe Chace Jeff Flake's had a rough few years.
[笑声]佐伊·切斯·杰夫·弗雷克这几年过得很艰难。
They hate him on the right, and he keeps disappointing the left.
右翼人士讨厌他，而他却不断让左翼人士失望。
It feels good, for once, to be popular.
一次受欢迎的感觉真好。
[LAUGHTER] Jeff Flake Oh, yeah.
[笑声] 杰夫·弗莱克 噢，是的。
Every politician does.
每个政客都这样做。
We like it.
我们喜欢它。
Politicians-- we feed on it.
政治家——我们以此为生。
That's a-- whether we admit it or not.
不管我们承认与否，这都是。
And then it happens, just like he predicted.
然后事情就发生了，就像他预测的那样。
After seven days of being treated as a Democrat-- or at least a Republican defector-- Flake comes home to the GOP.
在被视为民主党人（或者至少是共和党叛逃者）7天后，弗莱克回到了共和党。
On Thursday, the FBI releases the report that he called for.
周四，联邦调查局发布了他要求的报告。
On Friday, Flake announced his decision.
周五，弗莱克宣布了他的决定。
He's a yes on Kavanaugh.
他对卡瓦诺的看法是肯定的。
I reached Chris Coons that afternoon.
那天下午我到达了克里斯·库恩斯。
Look, Jeff and I both went to the same place, and read the same report.
看，杰夫和我都去了同一个地方，读了同一份报告。
And I appreciate his friendship.
我很欣赏他的友谊。
We are viewing this through a different lens.
我们正在通过不同的视角看待这一点。
Jeff is a conservative senator.
杰夫是一位保守派参议员。
He has always wanted a conservative on the Supreme Court.
他一直希望最高法院有一位保守派人士。
I am not, and I don't.
我不是，我也没有。
Coons thought the FBI report was a disgrace, basically.
库恩斯认为联邦调查局的报告基本上是一种耻辱。
They didn't follow up on any leads, he said.
他说，他们没有跟进任何线索。
It was not the investigation he had asked for last week.
这不是他上周要求的调查。
He was mad.
他很生气。
Frustrated.
沮丧的。
Kept going off the record and raging.
继续不记录并愤怒。
He would not tell me about his conversations with Jeff Flake after they both read the FBI report.
在他们都读了联邦调查局的报告后，他不愿告诉我他与杰夫·弗莱克的谈话。
I'm really trying not to either put words in his mouth or criticize him, because-- I am restraining myself from saying something that is not appropriate here.
我真的尽力不让他说话或批评他，因为——我正在克制自己不说一些不合适的话。
As soon as Flake voted Friday, he fled the Capitol.
弗莱克周五投票后就逃离了国会大厦。
I talked to him in the car.
我在车上和他说话。
People are mad at you again, I said.
人们又生你的气了，我说。
Well, that's how it goes, he said.
嗯，事情就是这样，他说。
Why did you vote yes, I asked him?
我问他，你为什么投赞成票？
Presumption of innocence, he told me, over and over.
无罪推定，他一遍又一遍地告诉我。
He was satisfied with the FBI report.
他对联邦调查局的报告感到满意。
Do you feel better now?
你现在感觉好些了吗？
You're kind of back among your people.
你又回到了你的人民之中。
You had kind of a week with the Democrats celebrating you, but you're back among your people.
你和民主党人一起庆祝了一周，但你又回到了你的人民之中。
Do I have people?
我还有人吗？
I guess so.
大概吧。
I am a man, temporarily, without a party.
我暂时是一个男人，没有党派。
There is no bipartisan right now.
现在没有两党。
There is no aisle to stand in the middle of.
中间没有过道可以站立。
To quote a film that Robert Di Niro was not in, but kind of-- "Don't ever take sides with anyone against the family.
引用一部罗伯特·迪尼罗没有参演的电影，但有点——“永远不要站在任何反对家庭的人一边。
Ever."
曾经。”
Zoe Chace is one of the producers of our program.
佐伊·查斯是我们节目的制作人之一。
Let's turn now to this recording that we found of Justice Anthony Kennedy.
现在让我们来看一下我们发现的安东尼·肯尼迪大法官的录音。
Kennedy, of course, is the retiring judge whose seat Brett Kavanaugh was nominated for, the swing vote on the Supreme Court for years.
当然，肯尼迪是即将退休的法官，布雷特·卡瓦诺（Brett Kavanaugh）的席位多年来一直在最高法院的摇摆票中获得提名。
This is him being questioned in a Q&A back in 2010.
这是他在 2010 年的一次问答中接受质询的照片。
As you stand here today, Justice, a potential colleague is starting the confirmation process.
当你今天站在这里时，正义，一位潜在的同事正在开始确认程序。
How has the process changed since you went through it?
自您经历以来，流程有何变化？
Remember, the Senate is a political body, and they have to act in a political way.
请记住，参议院是一个政治机构，他们必须以政治方式行事。
The framers knew that.
制宪者知道这一点。
And it's really not for me to tell the Senate how to structure that process.
我确实不需要告诉参议院如何构建这个过程。
I do think it has the obligation to recognize the necessity of preserving the neutrality, and the independence, and the integrity of our court.
我确实认为它有义务认识到维护法院中立、独立和廉正的必要性。
What you should ask is whether the judge has the temperament, the commitment, the character, the learning.
你应该问的是法官有没有气质、有担当、有品格、有学识。
I think the judge should be broadly read.
我认为法官应该广泛阅读。
I, myself, was fascinated with political theory.
我本人对政治理论很着迷。
If you ask what makes a good judge, you're going to get an autobiography, so you have to be careful about that.
如果你问什么是一个好的法官，你会得到一本自传，所以你必须小心。
[LAUGHTER] So the Senate has a-- really, very difficult position.
[笑声] 所以参议院的处境确实非常困难。
Kennedy was speaking to an audience including high school students.
肯尼迪向包括高中生在内的听众发表讲话。
People asked him about his favorite cases, if he had always wanted to be on the Supreme Court-- no, by the way.
人们问他最喜欢的案件，是否一直想在最高法院任职——顺便说一句，不。
He was funny.
他很有趣。
He was a good talker.
他很健谈。
And he explained his job-- how it works.
他解释了他的工作——它是如何运作的。
We will meet, just the nine of us, and discuss the case.
我们将见面，只有我们九个人，并讨论这个案子。
We begin in order of seniority, from the most senior judge to the least senior.
我们按照资历顺序开始，从最资深的法官到最不资深的法官。
And if the case is one in which there are great issues of public policy involved, we know that we're required to make a decision.
如果案件涉及重大公共政策问题，我们知道我们需要做出决定。
The courts have been divided on it.
法院对此存在分歧。
And let's assume that it's a five-four case, and it's not just reverse or affirm.
让我们假设这是一个五对四的情况，并且不仅仅是推翻或肯定。
It's a question of the rationale, the principal, the reasons that you give.
这是一个你给出的理由、原则、理由的问题。
And let's say it's five to four.
假设是五比四。
The five in the majority don't have a lot of back slaps, and high fives, and thumbs up.
大多数的五个人没有太多的拍背、击掌和竖起大拇指。
There's a moment of awe as we realize, one of us will have to write an opinion that commands the allegiance of the American people.
当我们意识到我们中的一个人必须写出一份赢得美国人民效忠的意见时，我们会感到敬畏。
An opinion that explains, that teaches the principles of law, the principles of the Constitution, that control the result.
一种解释、教导法律原则、宪法原则的意见，它控制着结果。
And when we issue that opinion in, say, an unpopular case, we draw down on a capital of trust.
当我们在一个不受欢迎的案件中发表意见时，我们会动用信任资本。
We make a withdrawal on the trust that the public has in our constitution.
我们撤回是基于公众对我们宪法的信任。
And it is our job always to replenish that trust by adhering to our judicial oath, by adhering to the principles of neutrality, and independence, and fairness, and quiet discussion, and decency, and courtesy, and scholarship.
我们的工作始终是通过恪守我们的司法誓言，坚持中立、独立、公平、安静讨论、正派、礼貌和学术的原则来补充这种信任。
That's the way our court works.
这就是我们法院的运作方式。
OK, one more story.
好吧，还有一个故事。
I don't know if this tells us anything profound about Anthony Kennedy or the Supreme Court, but it's just fun to hear how he talks about this.
我不知道这是否告诉我们有关安东尼·肯尼迪或最高法院的任何深刻的事情，但听他如何谈论这个很有趣。
I was meeting, one time, with our judges and attorneys in Alabama.
有一次，我在阿拉巴马州与我们的法官和律师会面。
And I think it was a Saturday morning.
我想那是一个星期六的早上。
And for my schedule or theirs or both, it was at 9 o'clock in the morning.
对于我或他们或两者的日程安排，时间是早上 9 点。
And they were dressed casually, ready to play golf or tennis.
他们穿着休闲，准备打高尔夫球或网球。
And they were gracious enough to hear me for a few minutes.
他们很客气地听了我几分钟。
And so I said, well, do you have any questions?
所以我说，好吧，你有什么问题吗？
And one attorney raised his hand and said, now, you have all that tremendous amount of reading to do-- all of those briefs.
一位律师举起手说，现在，你有大量的阅读要做——所有这些摘要。
How do you possibly do that?
你怎么可能这么做？
I said, well, I have four clerks, and I divide them up among the clerks.
我说，好吧，我有四个职员，我把他们分配给职员。
Of course, I have to read them all.
当然，我必须把它们全部读完。
And if they're very difficult cases, I will take them home and read the briefs a second time over the weekend, just before argument.
如果案件非常困难，我会带他们回家，在周末辩论之前再读一遍案情摘要。
And I like music.
我喜欢音乐。
I have opera playing in the background.
我在后台播放歌剧。
And I sometimes have cases that are one-opera cases, sometimes two-opera cases.
我有时遇到的是一部歌剧的案件，有时是两部歌剧的案件。
[LAUGHTER] Well, the minute I said that, I kind of knew I lost the audience.
[笑声] 嗯，当我这么说的那一刻，我就知道我失去了观众。
They were too polite to roll their eyes, but it sounded kind of, what, intellectually pretentious?
他们太有礼貌了，没有翻白眼，但这听起来有点，什么，理智上的自命不凡？
You know, here's some eastern guy talking about the opera.
你知道，这是一个东方人在谈论歌剧。
So I thought I'd lost the audience, but I was saved because an attorney in the room raised his hand.
所以我以为我失去了观众，但我得救了，因为房间里的一位律师举起了手。
He said, well, I have a rule like that when I write those briefs.
他说，好吧，当我写这些简报时，我有这样的规则。
I said oh, yes?
我说哦，是吗？
He said, I have a one six-pack brief and a two six-pack brief.
他说，我有一件六件套内裤和两件六件套内裤。
[LAUGHTER] I said, I think I remember your last one.
[笑声]我说，我想我记得你的最后一个。
It was a three six-pack brief.
这是一条三件六件装的内裤。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass Who'da thunk?
[笑声] Ira Glass 谁'da thunk？
Lawyer likes beer.
律师喜欢啤酒。
Thanks to the Forum Club of the Palm Beaches for that recording of Anthony Kennedy.
感谢棕榈滩论坛俱乐部为安东尼·肯尼迪录制的录音。
Coming up, a total and complete amateur has to decide a death sentence.
接下来，一个完全业余的人必须决定死刑。
His only previous experience in these matters?
他以前在这些事情上唯一的经验是什么？
Watching Law & Order.
正在看《法律与秩序》。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "The Unhappy Deciders"-- stories of people who are saddled with difficult, momentous decisions to make-- decisions that will determine someone's fate for the rest of their life, decisions that weigh on them.
今天的节目“不快乐的决定者”讲述了人们面临艰难而重大的决定的故事，这些决定将决定一个人的余生命运，对他们产生沉重的压力。
Act one of our program today was about a judge.
我们今天节目的第一幕是关于一位法官的。
Act Two is about a jury.
第二幕是关于陪审团的。
And we'll just get right to it.
我们就直接开始吧。
This story comes to us from the podcast Heavyweight.
这个故事来自重量级播客。
If you haven't heard Heavyweight, it's hosted by one of our regular contributors here, and a former producer of This American Life, Jonathan Goldstein.
如果您还没有听说过《Heavyweight》，它是由我们这里的一位定期撰稿人、《This American Life》的前制片人乔纳森·戈德斯坦 (Jonathan Goldstein) 主持的。
And the premise of the show is that each episode, people come to Jonathan with something in their life that they want to fix, they want to deal with, they want to make right with another person.
该剧的前提是，每一集，人们都会带着生活中的一些事情来找乔纳森，他们想要解决、想要处理、想要与另一个人和解。
Usually it's something they've been living with for a long time, and they're uncomfortable with.
通常这是他们已经忍受了很长时间的事情，而且他们对此感到不舒服。
And Jonathan plays a kind of bumbling Detective Columbo figure, but one who actually is kind of bumbling and awkward.
乔纳森扮演了一种笨手笨脚的哥伦坡侦探角色，但实际上是一种笨手笨脚和笨拙的人。
But he gets the people to sit down, and talk, and hash things out.
但他让人们坐下来讨论并解决问题。
Many of the episodes are really funny.
很多情节真的很有趣。
The one that we have today is a more serious one.
我们今天遇到的情况是更严重的。
Anyway, here's Jonathan Goldstein.
不管怎样，这是乔纳森·戈德斯坦。
In 2008, Sven received a letter for jury duty.
2008年，斯文收到一封担任陪审员的信。
Lots of people would say, oh, this is such a boring thing.
很多人会说，哦，这真是无聊的事情。
Oh no, I hope I don't get jury duty.
哦不，我希望我不会担任陪审员。
But I was more curious and interested in the process.
但我对这个过程更加好奇和感兴趣。
And I liked watching stuff like Law & Order, and other things like that.
我喜欢看《法律与秩序》之类的东西。
SVU, Criminal Intent-- Sven liked them all.
SVU、犯罪意图——斯文都喜欢。
He was a software developer, newly married.
他是一名软件开发人员，新婚不久。
And he and his wife had just bought a new house-- his first.
他和他的妻子刚刚买了一套新房子——他的第一栋房子。
The house had a flagpole in the front and a hammock out back.
房子前面有一根旗杆，后面有一张吊床。
After work he'd come home, relax on the couch, and watch his legal dramas.
下班后，他会回到家，在沙发上休息，看律政剧。
Jury duty was going to offer an inside view of the TV shows he loved.
陪审团的职责是提供他喜欢的电视节目的内部视角。
I wasn't fooled into thinking it was some weird, glamorous thing like that.
我并没有被愚弄，以为这是某种奇怪而迷人的东西。
But I thought juries were interesting-- the idea of judging your peers right or wrong.
但我认为陪审团很有趣——判断你的同行是对还是错的想法。
I've always sort of had a sense of civic responsibility.
我一直有一种公民责任感。
In my book, the only thing that makes responsibility less appealing is adding the word civic to it.
在我的书中，唯一让责任变得不那么有吸引力的就是在其中添加“公民”一词。
Paying your taxes, appearing before a zoning board-- not for me.
缴纳税款，出现在分区委员会面前——不适合我。
Like most, when I appeared for jury duty, I prayed for dismissal.
像大多数人一样，当我出庭担任陪审员时，我祈祷被解雇。
Not Sven, though.
但斯文不是。
During the selection process, he engaged with the questions the lawyers posed as best he could.
在选拔过程中，他尽可能地回答了律师提出的问题。
And when he was asked how he felt about capital punishment, he answered candidly.
当被问及对死刑有何感想时，他坦诚地回答。
I believe bad people should be punished in that way, or could be punished in that way.
我认为坏人应该受到这样的惩罚，或者可以这样受到惩罚。
And so I wouldn't say I was strongly for it, but I wasn't against it.
所以我不会说我强烈支持它，但我也不反对它。
And consequently, I got on the jury.
结果，我成为了陪审团成员。
The case was The State of Texas versus Paul David Storey.
该案是德克萨斯州诉保罗·大卫·斯托里案。
Storey was a 22-year-old accused of the murder of Jonas Cherry, the manager of a mini golf course in Hurst, Texas.
斯托里是一名 22 岁的男子，被指控谋杀了德克萨斯州赫斯特一个迷你高尔夫球场的经理乔纳斯·切里 (Jonas Cherry)。
Storey and an accomplice forced Cherry into the back office, made him unlock the safe, and put the money-- a few hundred dollars-- in a bag.
斯托里和一名同伙强迫切里进入后台办公室，让他打开保险箱，然后把几百美元的钱装进袋子里。
And then they shot him multiple times.
然后他们向他开了多次枪。
Storey's trial lasted two weeks, and would have felt familiar to anyone who watches TV courtroom dramas.
斯托里的审判持续了两周，任何看过法庭电视剧的人都会感到熟悉。
There were lawyers with thick binders full of ballistics reports and medical examinations, character witnesses were called, and disturbing photographs of the victim's body were shown.
律师们拿着厚厚的活页夹，里面装满了弹道报告和体检报告，传唤了品格证人，并展示了受害者尸体的令人不安的照片。
The only thing missing was any suspense about the verdict.
唯一缺少的是判决的悬念。
There was no doubt that he was guilty of murder and robbery.
毫无疑问，他犯有谋杀和抢劫罪。
And so really, as a jury, all we had to worry about was sentencing.
事实上，作为陪审团，我们所需要担心的就是量刑。
The jury had to decide between life imprisonment or the death penalty.
陪审团必须在终身监禁或死刑之间做出决定。
It seemed the victim's family knew what they wanted.
看来受害者的家人知道他们想要什么。
"It should go without saying," the prosecutor announced to Sven and the other jurors, "that all of Jonas's family and everyone who loved him believe the death penalty is appropriate."
“不用说，”检察官向斯文和其他陪审员宣布，“乔纳斯的所有家人和所有爱他的人都认为死刑是适当的。”
The prosecutor asked the jurors to sentence Paul Storey to death.
检察官要求陪审员判处保罗·斯托里死刑。
The instructions stated that for the death penalty to be imposed, the jurors must judge three things to be true-- that Paul Storey was guilty, that there were no mitigating circumstances-- like, say, mental illness or provocation-- and lastly, that Storey posed a future threat to his community.
指示指出，要判处死刑，陪审员必须判断三件事属实——保罗·斯托里有罪，不存在减轻情节——比如精神疾病或挑衅——最后，斯托里对他的社区构成了未来的威胁。
That was the one I had issue with.
这是我遇到的问题。
I seriously doubted that he would be a continuing threat to the prison community.
我严重怀疑他会对监狱社区构成持续的威胁。
And what was it about Paul Storey that made you feel like you just didn't necessarily see him as a continued threat?
保罗·斯托里的哪些特质让你觉得你不一定将他视为持续的威胁？
The young man Sven saw in the courtroom appeared confused, in over his head, and remorseful.
斯文在法庭上看到的那个年轻人看上去很困惑，神情恍惚，而且很懊悔。
This was his first offense.
这是他第一次犯规。
And some of the evidence suggested that it was Storey's accomplice who had been the mastermind behind the horrible crime, as well as the one who had fired first.
一些证据表明，斯托里的同谋是这起可怕罪行的幕后策划者，也是第一个开枪的人。
Sven was certain that Paul Storey should be punished, but he didn't think he should be put to death.
斯文确信保罗·斯托里应该受到惩罚，但他不认为他应该被处死。
But in the jury chambers, there was a very different feel.
但在陪审团室内，却有一种截然不同的感觉。
Everyone else was in favor of the death penalty.
其他人都赞成死刑。
And so faced with almost a dozen other people who already felt strongly, I didn't think I could convince anyone of what I was thinking.
因此，面对十几个已经有强烈感受的人，我认为我无法让任何人相信我的想法。
I'll be honest-- I was scared.
老实说——我很害怕。
At 27, Sven was the youngest juror by several years.
27 岁的斯文是多年来最年轻的陪审员。
And he was the kind of guy who avoided speaking up at all costs.
他是那种不惜一切代价避免发声的人。
At home, if his neighbor parked in his space, he let it go.
在家里，如果邻居把车停在他的车位上，他就会把车放开。
At the office, if his boss told him to do something, even if he disagreed, he did it without question.
在办公室，如果老板让他做某事，即使他不同意，他也会毫无疑问地去做。
In other words, even though he'd been looking forward to being a juror, when he found himself in the jury room, Sven wasn't exactly Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men.
换句话说，尽管他一直期待着成为一名陪审员，但当他发现自己身处陪审室时，斯文并不完全是《十二怒汉》中的亨利·方达。
The way he understood it, the jurors had to reach a unanimous decision.
按照他的理解，陪审团必须达成一致决定。
And the idea of swaying 11 strangers over to his way of thinking seemed impossible.
让 11 个陌生人接受他的想法似乎是不可能的。
He was also afraid that if he opposed the group, it would result in a hung jury and a mistrial.
他还担心，如果他反对该组织，就会导致陪审团悬而未决和审判无效。
They'd have to start the whole process over again with a new jury.
他们必须由新的陪审团重新开始整个过程。
Everyone would be mad at him.
每个人都会生他的气。
So Sven said nothing.
于是斯文什么也没说。
An hour and a half later, Paul Storey was sentenced to death by lethal injection.
一个半小时后，保罗·斯托里被判处注射死刑。
It was hard to look at him during the sentencing.
在宣判期间，很难看他一眼。
We sat waiting for the judge to ask us, what's the sentencing?
我们坐着等法官问我们，量刑是什么？
And everyone was really tense.
每个人都非常紧张。
And the woman next to me-- another juror-- began crying.
我旁边的那位女士——另一位陪审员——开始哭泣。
She was trying to hide it.
她试图隐藏它。
And I gave her my handkerchief.
我把我的手帕给了她。
And she just wept.
她只是哭了。
Then the foreman announced the verdict, and I think his mother cried out.
然后工头宣布了判决，我想他的母亲哭了。
They had an exit for us to go through after we collected our things.
他们有一个出口供我们在取完东西后通过。
And we were out of that courtroom fast.
我们很快就离开了法庭。
Sven went over to his parents' house, where he had dinner and drank scotch with his dad.
斯文去了他父母家，和他爸爸一起吃了晚饭，喝了苏格兰威士忌。
He told his family about the trial.
他向家人讲述了审判的情况。
And then he went home, where he had more to drink before bed.
然后他回家了，睡前又喝了一些酒。
And then that was that.
然后就是这样。
Then it was over.
然后就结束了。
And then I went on with my life.
然后我继续我的生活。
Or at least he tried to.
或者至少他尝试过。
Sven Berger But what did you do with these feelings?
斯文·伯杰 但是你对这些感觉做了什么？
I was just stuck.
我只是被困住了。
It was done.
事情完成了。
It was cast in stone.
它是用石头铸成的。
And-- yeah, no, I felt terrible.
而且——是的，不，我感觉很糟糕。
I felt massive amounts of regret.
我感到非常后悔。
I felt guilty, sending someone to death row.
我感到内疚，把某人送进了死牢。
When you think about the people that a trial effects, you think of the victims and their loved ones.
当你想到审判所影响的人时，你会想到受害者和他们的亲人。
And you think of the accused, their families, and what they're going through.
你会想到被告、他们的家人以及他们正在经历的事情。
You don't usually think about what it does to the jurors.
你通常不会考虑这对陪审员有何影响。
But for Sven, the trial wasn't something you could put behind him at the crack of a gavel.
但对斯文来说，审判并不是一击木槌就可以抛在脑后的事情。
In the days and weeks after the verdict, he read every article about the case he could find.
在判决后的几天和几周内，他阅读了他能找到的所有有关此案的文章。
But the more he read, the more shame he felt.
但他读得越多，就越感到羞耻。
So eventually he just stopped.
所以最终他停了下来。
At the time, Sven was a regular drinker.
当时，斯文经常喝酒。
And it only got worse after the trial.
审判后情况变得更糟。
It got a lot worse after the trial.
审判后情况变得更糟。
He was drinking more, beginning as soon as he got home from work, and spending more days hungover.
他下班回家后就开始喝酒，并且在宿醉状态下度过了更多天。
His wife didn't understand what was going on.
他的妻子不明白发生了什么事。
It may have contributed to my divorce, which was the following year.
这可能导致了我第二年的离婚。
A year after the trial, and Sven's life had changed.
审判一年后，斯文的生活发生了变化。
The new house with the hammock and the flagpole was sold, and Sven moved out of Texas.
带吊床和旗杆的新房子被卖掉，斯文搬出了德克萨斯州。
Sven settled in Olympia, Washington, to start his life over.
斯文在华盛顿州奥林匹亚定居，开始了他的生活。
He found an apartment for himself and his cat, Niku.
他为自己和他的猫 Niku 找到了一套公寓。
But he couldn't shake his memories of the trial.
但他无法摆脱对审判的记忆。
When a friend bought a secondhand silver Nissan, Sven couldn't stop thinking about how that was the same car the victim, Jonas Cherry, had driven.
当一位朋友买了一辆二手银色日产汽车时，斯文不停地想这与受害者乔纳斯·切里开的车是同一辆车。
When addressing coworkers, the name Jonas would accidentally slip from Sven's lips.
在与同事交谈时，乔纳斯这个名字会不小心从斯文的嘴里溜走。
And Paul Storey, who still was on death row, was never far from Sven's mind.
保罗·斯托里（Paul Storey）仍然在死囚牢房里，他一直在斯文的脑海中萦绕不去。
He tried to escape through alcohol, but it didn't free him from his shame.
他试图通过酒精来逃避，但这并没有让他摆脱耻辱。
Sometimes, after a night out drinking, he'd return to a Facebook page Paul Storey's mother had made for her son.
有时，晚上出去喝酒后，他会回到保罗·斯托里的母亲为儿子制作的 Facebook 页面。
One mother had already lost her son.
一位母亲已经失去了她的儿子。
And now, because Sven had been too afraid to speak up, another mother was going to, as well.
现在，因为斯文太害怕而不敢说话，另一位母亲也将要开口。
I'm not trying to excuse his crime.
我并不是想为他的罪行开脱。
It was terrible.
太可怕了。
But to send a guy to death?
但要把一个人送死吗？
The presence in your mind, the recurring thoughts about it-- can that go away?
你脑海中的存在，反复出现的想法——能消失吗？
For all the bad rap it gets, shame offers a certain safety.
尽管羞耻感带来了很多不好的名声，但它还是提供了一定的安全感。
It provides a comfortable hole to hide in, away from the judgment of others.
它提供了一个舒适的藏身之处，远离他人的评判。
But it can also lead to isolation and inertia.
但它也可能导致孤立和惰性。
And for eight years-- eight years in which Paul Storey sat on death row, awaiting an execution date-- Sven barely talked about the trial with anybody.
八年来——保罗·斯托里坐在死囚牢房等待处决日期的八年里——斯文几乎没有与任何人谈论过这次审判。
But then, in 2016, the year after Paul Storey's federal appeal had been denied, a reporter writing a series of articles about the judicial system approached Sven about his experience as a juror.
但随后，在 2016 年，即保罗·斯托里 (Paul Storey) 的联邦上诉被驳回后的第二年，一位撰写一系列有关司法系统文章的记者向斯文讲述了他作为陪审员的经历。
Sven was tired of being all alone with his regrets.
斯文厌倦了独自一人带着遗憾。
And so, for the first time, he opened up about his feelings.
于是，他第一次坦白了自己的感受。
"I felt guilty," he told the reporter, "and sad, and a little helpless.
“我感到内疚，”他告诉记者，“而且悲伤，还有点无助。
I don't think I made the right call." Sven had hoped that talking about the trial might help.
我不认为我做出了正确的决定。”斯文曾希望谈论审判可能会有所帮助。
And it did-- up until the article was published.
事实确实如此——直到文章发表。
That was when Sven received an uncomfortable phone call from a lawyer who had read the article.
就在那时，斯文接到了一位读过这篇文章的律师打来的令人不安的电话。
Sven was at work.
斯文正在工作。
Fearing his coworkers might overhear, he took the call outside, behind his office building.
由于担心同事可能会听到，他在办公楼后面的外面接了电话。
It was there that he learned that, eight years earlier, he had misunderstood a key part of the jury instructions.
正是在那里，他得知八年前，他误解了陪审团指示的一个关键部分。
I thought incorrectly, essentially.
从本质上讲，我的想法是错误的。
I believed I would have to convince everyone to choose life imprisonment when, in fact, all I had to do was decline the death penalty.
我相信我必须说服每个人选择无期徒刑，而事实上，我所要做的就是拒绝死刑。
And that's all it would have taken.
这就是它所需要的一切。
Preventing the death sentence only required one dissenting vote-- a vote Sven could have cast.
阻止死刑只需要一张反对票——斯文本来可以投的。
So there would have been no mistrial, no hung jury.
这样就不会出现误审，也不会有悬而未决的陪审团。
And instead of the death penalty, Paul Storey would have gotten life in prison without parole.
保罗·斯托里不会被判处死刑，而是会被判处终身监禁，不得假释。
That would have been nice to know.
如果知道的话那就太好了。
I could have changed-- well, I could have let him live.
我本可以改变——好吧，我本可以让他活下去。
After the article was published, something else happened-- something Sven never expected or wanted.
文章发表后，发生了另一件事——这是斯文从未预料到或想要的。
Paul Storey's mother, Marilyn, got in touch.
保罗·斯托里的母亲玛丽莲联系上了。
She reached out with an email filled with sentiments of forgiveness.
她发出了一封充满宽恕之情的电子邮件。
She had forgiven me.
她已经原谅我了。
And if I wanted to, I could reach out and talk with her.
如果我愿意，我可以联系她并与她交谈。
And knowing that there is that forgiveness-- it felt so weird, like it wasn't something I could completely understand.
知道有那种宽恕——感觉很奇怪，好像这不是我能完全理解的东西。
For Sven, it didn't make sense.
对于斯文来说，这没有任何意义。
Why would Marilyn want to speak with him?
玛丽莲为什么要和他说话？
How could she, of all people, forgive him for something he couldn't forgive himself for?
在所有人中，她怎么能原谅他无法原谅自己的事情呢？
I didn't know how to deal with-- I still kind of don't know how to deal with that.
我不知道如何应对——我仍然不知道如何应对。
And I couldn't match her message.
我无法匹配她的消息。
How do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Sven Berger Well, I wasn't sure how to reply with something as powerful as that.
Sven Berger：嗯，我不知道如何用如此有力的东西来回答。
It just floored me.
这让我很震惊。
I didn't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
Sven was never able to write Marilyn back.
斯文始终无法给玛丽莲回信。
I did-- began a reply, but I didn't have the courage to finish or send it.
我确实——开始回复，但我没有勇气完成或发送它。
It's just, there's so much pain in there, and-- I feel like I really wrecked things up.
只是，那里有太多的痛苦，而且——我觉得我真的把事情搞砸了。
A few months after Sven received Marilyn's email, an execution date was set.
斯文收到玛丽莲的电子邮件几个月后，执行日期就确定了。
The state would put Paul Storey to death on April 12 of 2017.
该州将于 2017 年 4 月 12 日处决保罗·斯托里 (Paul Storey)。
But then something unexpected happened.
但随后发生了意想不到的事情。
Glenn and Judith Cherry, the parents of the victim, came forward.
受害者的父母格伦和朱迪思·切里挺身而出。
It seems that, at the trial, the prosecution had lied.
看来，在审判中，检方撒了谎。
The Cherrys, in spite of their son's murder, are and always have been against capital punishment.
尽管他们的儿子被谋杀，切里夫妇仍然反对死刑。
In a video they released publicly, Judith Cherry presents a statement which reads in part, "We do not want Paul Storey's family, especially his mother, to witness the purposeful execution of their son.
在他们公开发布的视频中，朱迪思·切里发表了一份声明，其中部分内容是：“我们不希望保罗·斯托里的家人，尤其是他的母亲，目睹他们的儿子被故意处决。
They are innocent of his deeds."
他们对他的行为是无辜的。”
Based on this testimony, with only five days to spare, Paul Storey's execution was postponed.
根据这一证词，在只剩下五天时间的情况下，保罗·斯托里的处决被推迟了。
When news of the stay of execution reached Sven, it felt like a second chance, an opening to finally respond to Marilyn's email.
当斯文得知暂缓执行死刑的消息时，感觉就像是第二次机会，是最终回复玛丽莲电子邮件的机会。
But he didn't.
但他没有。
It's now been over two years.
现在已经过去两年多了。
He's remarried, doesn't drink anymore-- but he still hasn't contacted Marilyn.
他再婚了，不再喝酒了——但他仍然没有联系过玛丽莲。
I need to apologize for not doing what I should have done to begin with, for not following my gut, for not trying.
我需要道歉，因为我没有做我一开始就应该做的事情，没有跟随我的直觉，没有尝试。
Shame leads to inertia.
羞耻会导致惰性。
And as even the most casual reader of the fundamentals of physics will tell you, an inert object will remain inert until it is acted upon by an external force.
即使是最不经意的物理学基础读者也会告诉你，惰性物体将保持惰性，直到受到外力作用。
In other words, it takes a little nudge.
换句话说，需要一点点推动。
And who better to supply a little nudge than a little "nudge?"
还有谁比“推动”更能提供一点推动呢？
And so I write Marilyn a letter.
所以我给玛丽莲写了一封信。
"I know this is a really sensitive and deeply personal issue," it reads, "and I hope I'm not being too forward." I ask Marilyn if she remembers a juror by the name of Sven Berger.
“我知道这是一个非常敏感且非常个人化的问题，”它写道，“我希望我不要太主动。”我问玛丽莲是否记得一位名叫斯文·伯杰的陪审员。
About a week later, I receive a note back via email-- "Thank you so much for your letter," Marilyn writes.
大约一周后，我收到一封电子邮件回信——“非常感谢你的来信，”玛丽莲写道。
"I have no ill will toward Mr. Berger.
“我对伯杰先生没有恶意。
I have offered him my email address, as well as my phone number, with no reply."
我向他提供了我的电子邮件地址和电话号码，但没有得到回复。”
She also forwards her original email to Sven-- the one she sent two years ago, the one he can't stop thinking about.
她还将原来的电子邮件转发给斯文——这是她两年前发送的一封，也是他无法停止思考的一封。
When I read it, I'm expecting a grand gesture of forgiveness.
当我读到它时，我期待着宽恕的伟大姿态。
But Marilyn never mentions forgiveness-- never even uses the word.
但玛丽莲从未提及宽恕——甚至从未使用过这个词。
Instead, it's just six short sentences in which Marilyn thanks Sven for the article, and says she shared it with her son.
相反，这只是六个简短的句子，玛丽莲感谢斯文的这篇文章，并说她与儿子分享了这篇文章。
Her tone is breezy.
她的语气很轻松。
She ends with, "have a great day," exclamation mark.
她以感叹号“祝你有美好的一天”结束。
I understand that Sven, consumed by guilt, would read so much into so little.
我知道，斯文因内疚而心力交瘁，所以会从这么少的事情中解读出太多的东西。
But what I don't understand is why Marilyn sent him the email in the first place.
但我不明白的是，玛丽莲一开始为什么给他发这封电子邮件。
I know you had jokingly mentioned breakfast.
我知道你开玩笑地提到过早餐。
Oh, I was joking.
哦，我开玩笑的。
Jonathan Goldstein I have a couple little things, if you get peckish at all-- some croissant, some of this stuff.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦：如果你饿了，我有一些小东西——一些羊角面包，一些这样的东西。
I don't know, some cookies.
我不知道，一些饼干。
No, I'm fine.
不，我很好。
Jonathan Goldstein Yeah?
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 是吗？
OK.
好的。
Marilyn lives in Fort Worth, Texas.
玛丽莲住在德克萨斯州沃思堡。
The two of us meet in a hotel suite downtown where I can't stop offering her food that she can't stop refusing.
我们两个人在市中心的一间酒店套房里见面，我不停地给她提供食物，而她却不停地拒绝。
No. Jonathan Goldstein Marilyn is tall and stately, with smiling eyes.
不。乔纳森·戈德斯坦·玛丽莲身材高大、庄重，眼睛里含着微笑。
She's in slacks, boots, and a cropped blazer, all in black.
她穿着黑色的休闲裤、靴子和短款西装外套。
She sits on the end of the couch, next to an empty armchair, and tries to give me a sense of what her life was like before the trial.
她坐在沙发的一端，旁边是一张空扶手椅，试图让我了解她在审判前的生活。
I was always the life of the party.
我一直是聚会上的焦点。
I mean, I was a jokester-- oh, make sure you have Marilyn there, because she's going to keep the party going.
我的意思是，我是个爱开玩笑的人——哦，确保玛丽莲也在场，因为她会让派对继续下去。
I was always kind of the one that everybody went to.
我总是那种每个人都会去的人。
People knew you can call me in the middle of the night.
人们知道你可以在半夜给我打电话。
If you need somebody to come pick you up, call Marilyn.
如果您需要有人来接您，请致电玛丽莲。
She'll get up.
她会站起来。
She'll go do it.
她会去做的。
Since the trial, Marilyn doesn't feel like the same person.
自审判以来，玛丽莲感觉自己不再是同一个人了。
Every day, she's reckoning with the horror of her son's crime, and worrying endlessly about his safety in prison.
每天，她都在思考儿子犯罪的恐怖，无休止地担心他在监狱里的安全。
Her friends have fallen away.
她的朋友们都消失了。
The thing that's hardest, though, is how the people who remain-- the people closest to her-- now look upon her son.
然而，最困难的是留下来的人——最亲近的人——现在如何看待她的儿子。
She says that everyone's passed judgment on Paul, written him off as worthless and un-redeemable.
她说每个人都对保罗做出了评价，认为他毫无价值且无法救赎。
And they blame him for her pain.
他们把她的痛苦归咎于他。
And I even had a family member where-- Paul is the cause of all of this.
我什至有一个家庭成员——保罗是这一切的原因。
And that was very hurtful.
这非常伤人。
It's like they wanted everything to be OK, but that's my child.
就好像他们希望一切都好，但那是我的孩子。
And I love him.
我爱他。
And I'm not going to ever stop fighting for him.
我永远不会停止为他而战。
Fighting for him meant working with her son's lawyers to change his sentence to life in prison.
为他而战意味着与她儿子的律师合作，将他的刑期改为终身监禁。
It took up all of her time and energy, which affected the hospitality job she worked out for over 30 years.
这占用了她所有的时间和精力，影响了她从事了30多年的酒店工作。
It became extremely hard for me to concentrate at work.
我很难集中精力工作。
And I feel like it cost me my job.
我觉得这让我失去了工作。
After losing her job, Marilyn then lost her house.
失去工作后，玛丽莲也失去了房子。
She was forced to move in with her younger son.
她被迫搬去与小儿子同住。
So it's like, at my age, where I thought that I'd be getting ready to retire, I'm starting over.
所以，就像在我这个年纪，我以为我已经准备好退休了，但我又重新开始了。
So that's a hard thing.
所以这是一件很难的事情。
10 years after the trial, and everyone-- her friends, her family-- have all moved on.
审判结束十年后，每个人——她的朋友、她的家人——都已经向前看。
So when Marilyn read Sven's article, she saw in him someone like her-- someone who had never gotten past that final day of the trial.
因此，当玛丽莲读到斯文的文章时，她在他身上看到了一个像她一样的人——一个从未度过审判最后一天的人。
When they actually gave the sentence-- the death penalty-- I thought I had died.
当他们真正判处死刑时，我以为我已经死了。
I thought I had literally died.
我以为我真的死了。
It didn't even register.
它甚至没有注册。
Because I'm just like, what just happened?
因为我只是想，刚刚发生了什么？
What have they done?
他们做了什么？
My whole time there, I was just looking at the jurors to try to read, OK, what are they thinking?
我在那里的整个时间里，我只是看着陪审员，试图读懂，好吧，他们在想什么？
What are they doing?
他们在做什么？
I wanted them to know, if I could only tell them what kind of person he is.
我想让他们知道，如果我能告诉他们他是一个什么样的人就好了。
And I want people to know-- they assume that if you're involved in a heinous crime like that, that you're a monster.
我想让人们知道——他们认为如果你参与了这样令人发指的犯罪，你就是一个怪物。
But he wasn't a monster.
但他不是怪物。
[PHONE RINGING] Jonathan Goldstein I think that might be him.
[电话铃声]乔纳森·戈德斯坦（Jonathan Goldstein）我想那可能是他。
So he's going to come up.
所以他要上来。
Marilyn and I have been talking for about an hour and a half when the front desk phones.
当前台打电话时，玛丽莲和我已经聊了大约一个半小时。
I think it probably-- Marilyn Storey Now, how do you pronounce his name?
我想可能是—— Marilyn Storey 现在，你怎么发音他的名字？
Sven-- S-V-E-N.
斯文——S-V-E-N。
Marilyn Storey Sven, yeah.
玛丽莲·斯托里·斯文，是的。
Sven.
斯文.
Sven, yeah.
斯文，是的。
Marilyn Storey Sven.
玛丽莲·斯托里·斯文.
I hope I get that before he gets here.
我希望在他来之前我能明白这一点。
But before we get a chance to practice our Svens, Sven is at the door.
但在我们有机会练习我们的斯文之前，斯文已经到了门口。
Hi.
你好。
Jonathan Goldstein Hi, Sven.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 你好，斯文。
I'm Jonathan.
我是乔纳森。
It's very nice to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Sven lingers in the door of the hotel room.
斯文在酒店房间门口徘徊。
He's bespectacled, and neatly dressed in a collared shirt and sweater.
他戴着眼镜，穿着整齐的有领衬衫和毛衣。
He looks around and clears his throat.
他环顾四周，清了清喉咙。
The last time Marilyn and Sven had been in the same room was 10 years ago, at the trial.
玛丽莲和斯文最后一次在同一个房间是在十年前的审判中。
Marilyn was seated behind the bar.
玛丽莲坐在吧台后面。
Sven sat in the jury box.
斯文坐在陪审团席上。
But today, he sits down in the empty armchair beside her.
但今天，他坐在她旁边的空扶手椅上。
He can't quite bring himself to look at her.
他不敢直视她。
As he tells Marilyn what it was like to receive her email, he gazes down at his lap.
当他告诉玛丽莲收到她的电子邮件是什么感觉时，他低头看着自己的腿。
It was very surprising.
这是非常令人惊讶的。
And I read it, and I reread it.
我读了它，又重读了它。
And I even began several letters that never went anywhere.
我什至写了几封信，但都没有寄出。
I didn't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
What do you say about that?
对此你有何看法？
I don't want to write a letter that's trying to make me feel better.
我不想写一封试图让我感觉好一点的信。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Mmm hmm.
嗯嗯。
From the moment the vote was cast, I had regret.
从投票的那一刻起，我就感到后悔。
I thought, I am doing the wrong thing.
我想，我做错事了。
And although it was great hearing that you forgave me, I couldn't forgive myself, exactly.
虽然很高兴听到你原谅了我，但我确实无法原谅自己。
And I can't even imagine how you must feel.
我什至无法想象你的感受。
First of all, I want to say I don't want you to feel shame, because my son was involved in a crime.
首先，我想说我不想让你感到羞耻，因为我的儿子参与了犯罪。
He made a wrong choice.
他做了一个错误的选择。
And I don't ever want you to feel that you did anything wrong.
我也不希望你觉得你做错了什么。
You did what you felt you had to do at the time.
你做了你当时觉得必须做的事。
But you came back.
但你回来了。
And for you to come out, and for you to say hey, I made a mistake-- you right your wrong.
为了让你站出来，让你说嘿，我犯了一个错误——你纠正了你的错误。
I can tell by Sven's face that he isn't convinced.
从斯文的表情我可以看出他并不相信。
He doesn't feel like he's righted anything.
他不觉得自己做对了什么。
This is because for years, Sven has been avoiding all traces of the case-- no googling, no newspapers.
这是因为多年来，斯文一直在回避案件的所有痕迹——没有谷歌搜索，没有报纸。
He never even read the article he'd been interviewed for.
他甚至从未读过他接受采访的文章。
So he doesn't know what Marilyn knows, which is the chain of events that his article set in motion.
所以他不知道玛丽莲知道什么，这就是他的文章引发的一系列事件。
The jury instructions for Paul Storey's case were written in dense legalize, and nowhere in their nine pages did they state that a single dissenting vote can prevent the death penalty.
保罗·斯托里案的陪审团指示是用浓密的合法性写成的，在九页的内容中没有任何一处表明单次反对票可以阻止死刑。
In fact, courts in Texas are prohibited from telling jurors that.
事实上，德克萨斯州的法院被禁止告诉陪审员这一点。
In theory, that's to encourage them to arrive at a consensus.
从理论上讲，这是为了鼓励他们达成共识。
But what it means is Sven's confusion wasn't his fault.
但这意味着斯文的困惑不是他的错。
For years, legal advocates had wanted to bring a bill before the legislature that would clarify the instructions.
多年来，法律倡导者一直希望向立法机关提出一项法案来澄清这些指示。
But they needed someone who could say, I would have done things differently if I had understood.
但他们需要有人能够说，如果我理解的话，我会做不同的事情。
Marilyn explains to Sven that with him, and the things he'd said in the article, they had finally found that person.
玛丽莲向斯文解释说，通过他以及他在文章中所说的事情，他们终于找到了那个人。
There are senators in the state of Texas who have introduced a bill based on you to change the way the instructions are given to a death penalty jury.
德克萨斯州的一些参议员提出了一项基于您的法案，以改变向死刑陪审团发出指示的方式。
Sven, slumped in his chair, straightens up.
斯文瘫坐在椅子上，直起身子。
Really?
真的吗？
Marilyn Storey Yeah.
玛丽莲·斯托里 是的。
You have no idea what sort of impact you had.
你不知道你产生了什么样的影响。
You were very instrumental.
你非常有帮助。
Sven Berger This is-- I'm shocked.
斯文·伯杰 这是——我很震惊。
While his eyes have tended to dart around the room, looking at me or down at his hands, right now Sven is looking directly at Marilyn.
虽然他的眼睛常常在房间里扫视，看着我或低头看着他的手，但现在斯文正直视着玛丽莲。
She tells him that had he in fact voted against the death penalty at her son's trial, these attempts at reform might never have happened.
她告诉他，如果他实际上在她儿子的审判中投票反对死刑，这些改革尝试可能永远不会发生。
I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason, because this is not just about my son.
我坚信事情的发生都是有原因的，因为这不仅仅是我儿子的事。
It's about other mothers' sons that are on death row, as well.
这也与其他被判死刑的母亲的儿子有关。
So if this can help any other case outside of Paul's, then we've served our purpose.
因此，如果这可以帮助保罗以外的任何其他情况，那么我们就达到了目的。
You came forward.
你挺身而出。
So I look at you as my hero.
所以我把你视为我的英雄。
Sven physically shrinks from the word hero.
斯文对英雄这个词感到身体上的退缩。
It's as though she's placed a large, awkward crown atop his head.
就好像她把一顶笨拙的大王冠戴在了他的头上。
Wow.
哇。
That's not the way I'd considered myself, or my actions in any way.
这不是我看待自己或我的行为的方式。
I don't feel that special.
我觉得没那么特别。
Oh, to me.
哦，对我来说。
Sven Berger But I appreciate all your words.
Sven Berger 但我很欣赏你所说的一切。
To me, you are.
对我来说，你就是。
Sven Berger That's a lot to process.
Sven Berger：有很多事情需要处理。
I had no idea.
我不知道。
You didn't know any of this?
这些你都不知道吗？
Sven Berger No.
斯文·伯杰 No.
Oh, the articles-- there is a really good one in The Texas Tribune.
哦，文章——《德克萨斯论坛报》上有一篇非常好的文章。
I actually printed it out for you, but I wasted Coca-Cola on it, so I didn't want to give you an article that was-- but you should look it up.
我实际上为你打印了它，但我浪费了可口可乐，所以我不想给你一篇文章，但你应该查一下。
This blows my mind.
这让我大吃一惊。
Sorry, I'm a little at a loss for words.
抱歉，我有点不知所措。
Walking in here, I didn't know what to expect.
走进这里，我不知道会发生什么。
And I was a little nervous.
我有点紧张。
I do feel, even just now, a little bit of weight taken off my shoulders.
即使是现在，我也确实感到肩上的担子减轻了一些。
I can tell.
我可以告诉。
Sven Berger This helps.
斯文·伯杰 这有帮助。
This helps so much.
这很有帮助。
Oh, this helps so much.
哦，这很有帮助。
After all these years, Sven is finally able to accept Marilyn's forgiveness, even if he still isn't ready to forgive himself.
这么多年过去了，斯文终于能够接受玛丽莲的原谅，尽管他还没有准备好原谅自己。
It chews me up, today, that I didn't express a dissenting opinion.
今天我没有表达不同意见，这让我很恼火。
I should have spoken up, at least.
至少我应该说出来。
I mean, I didn't think he would be a danger to the prison community.
我的意思是，我不认为他会对监狱社区构成危险。
I didn't see a hardened criminal there.
我在那里没有看到一个顽固的罪犯。
I got the impression of sort of a kid who was in a situation he didn't know how to handle.
我的印象就像是一个不知道如何处理处境的孩子。
I saw someone who made a terrible mistake, and someone I did not believe would do it again.
我看到有人犯了一个可怕的错误，而我不相信有人会再犯同样的错误。
I kept looking at the jurors, and I was like, it has to be somebody on there that feels, and that can see through all of this that the prosecutor is presenting, and everything, to know that my son is not a monster.
我一直看着陪审员，我想，那里必须有人有感觉，并且能够看穿检察官所呈现的所有这一切，以及一切，知道我的儿子不是一个怪物。
No. No, never.
不，不，从来没有。
I never saw Paul as a monster.
我从来没有把保罗视为怪物。
After the crime, Marilyn's family never saw her son the same way again.
案发后，玛丽莲的家人再也没有以同样的方式看待她的儿子。
From that moment on, he was nothing more than a murderer.
从那一刻起，他就不再是一个杀人犯了。
And on the final day of the trial, 12 jurors confirmed that judgment.
在审判的最后一天，12 名陪审员确认了这一判决。
Her hope had been that maybe someone had seen something else.
她希望也许有人看到了其他东西。
It wasn't a hope for someone to recognize in her son anything special or good.
不希望有人在她儿子身上发现任何特别或好的东西。
She just wanted them to see him as something other than a monster.
她只是想让他们把他视为怪物而不是怪物。
I didn't see that.
我没看到。
Marilyn Storey Thank you.
玛丽莲·斯托里 谢谢。
I appreciate that so much.
我非常感激。
Throughout the trial, I never saw that once.
在整个审判过程中，我从未见过这种情况。
Paul Storey is still on death row, and Sven still can't reverse the sentence.
保罗·斯托里仍被关押在死囚牢房，而斯文仍然无法翻案。
But in speaking aloud the words that Marilyn's been repeating to herself for so long, Sven's made her feel less alone.
但当斯文大声说出玛丽莲长期以来一直对自己重复的话时，她感到不那么孤独了。
You have-- some of the hurt that I have carried on my heart for the last 12 years.
你有——过去12年来我心里所受的一些伤害。
You just lifted it.
你刚刚举起它。
You have no earthly idea what that meant to me.
你根本不知道这对我意味着什么。
It meant a lot.
这意味着很多。
And for you to say that-- it really eased my heart.
你这么一说，我的心真的轻松了很多。
After years of worry over what to say to Marilyn, Sven's finally found the right words.
斯文多年来一直担心该对玛丽莲说些什么，终于找到了合适的措辞。
That's OK.
没关系。
I totally understood.
我完全明白了。
That's a lot.
就这么多了。
Since Sven and Marilyn's meeting, a judge made an official recommendation that, based on Glenn and Judith Cherry's testimony, his sentence be changed to life in prison without parole.
斯文和玛丽莲会面后，法官正式建议，根据格伦和朱迪思·切里的证词，将他的刑期改为终身监禁，不得假释。
Though the Court of Criminal Appeals still has to make a final ruling, Storey's lawyers are hopeful-- and so is Marilyn.
尽管刑事上诉法院仍需做出最终裁决，但斯托里的律师充满希望——玛丽莲也是如此。
As for Sven, after finally responding to Marilyn, he decided to send a letter of apology to Paul Storey.
至于斯文，在最终回复玛丽莲之后，他决定给保罗·斯托里发一封道歉信。
"I couldn't find the strength to speak up in the jury room," he wrote, "and that is a mistake I will carry forever." Sven has yet to hear anything back.
“我找不到在陪审团房间里发言的力量，”他写道，“这是我将永远承担的错误。”斯文尚未收到任何回复。
Jonathan Goldstein is the host of Heavyweight.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦是《重量级》节目的主持人。
His producer for this story was Stevie Lane.
这个故事的制片人是史蒂维·莱恩。
Heavyweight just started their third season with an episode about comedian Rob Corddry.
重量级人物刚刚开始了他们的第三季，其中有一集是关于喜剧演员罗布·科德瑞的。
You can find their podcast at gimletmedia.com/heavyweight.
您可以在 gimletmedia.com/heavyweight 找到他们的播客。
Or you can just Google or just get it wherever you get your podcasts.
或者你可以只用谷歌搜索或者只要你能找到你的播客就可以得到它。
Our program was produced today by Diane Wu.
我们今天的节目是由 Diane Wu 制作的。
People who put together today's show include Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Neil Drumming, Damian Grave, David Kestenbaum, Anna Martin, Miki Meek, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whitaker.
今天节目的制作人包括 Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Neil Drumming、Damian Grave、David Kestenbaum、Anna Martin、Miki Meek、Nadia Reiman、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Julie Whitaker。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our managing editor is Susan Burton.
我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿。
Special thanks today to Victoria Camp, Seung Min Kim, Meagan Shepard, Ben Terris, Kalila Holt, Peter Bresnan, Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, Maurice Chammah, Amanda Marzullo, Elie Mystal, Lawrence Stengel, Richard Holwell, Pamela Bresnahan, and Nina Totenberg.
今天特别感谢 Victoria Camp、Seung Min Kim、Meagan Shepard、Ben Terris、Kalila Holt、Peter Bresnan、Jorge Just、Alex Blumberg、Maurice Chammah、Amanda Marzullo、Elie Mystal、Lawrence Stengel、Richard Holwell、Pamela Bresnahan 和 Nina Totenberg。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 600 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Every time he and I play tennis, he makes me so mad the way he serves.
每次他和我打网球时，他的发球方式都让我非常生气。
And when I get mad, he always reminds me--
当我生气的时候，他总是提醒我——
Quiet discussion, and decency, and courtesy.
安静的讨论，礼貌和礼貌。
That's the way our court works.
这就是我们法院的运作方式。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。