651: If You Build It, Will They Come? - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #651 | July 13, 2018 651: If You Build It, Will They Come?
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 651 集 | 2018 年 7 月 13 日 651：如果你建造它，他们会来吗？
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass This reporter named Eric Mennel told me this thing a little while back that I found totally fascinating, knew nothing about at all.
序言：序言 Ira Glass 不久前，一位名叫 Eric Mennel 的记者告诉我这件事，我觉得非常有趣，但我对此一无所知。
Eric was raised as an evangelical in Florida and works these days at Gimlet Media.
埃里克 (Eric) 在佛罗里达州长大，是一位福音派人士，目前在 Gimlet Media 工作。
And he's been reporting on this one part of the Christian world for a while.
一段时间以来，他一直在报道基督教世界的这一地区。
There's this whole Christian version of Silicon Valley, only instead of, like, creating apps and tech products, what the Christian world is trying to do is use the tools of Silicon Valley to create churches.
这是整个基督教版本的硅谷，只是基督教世界试图做的不是创建应用程序和科技产品，而是使用硅谷的工具来创建教堂。
They'll call them church startups or church plants.
他们将其称为教会初创公司或教会植堂。
And so what are some of the tools that they use that are the same?
那么他们使用的一些工具是相同的吗？
It kind of runs the gamut, right?
它涵盖了所有领域，对吧？
If you can find it in Silicon Valley, it probably exists somewhere in the church planting world.
如果你能在硅谷找到它，它可能就存在于教会建立世界的某个地方。
So for example, there are boot camps, where, for maybe three or five days of your time, you can go and learn everything that you need to learn in order to start a new church.
例如，有新兵训练营，在那里，你可能会花三到五天的时间去学习建立新教会所需的一切。
Mhm.
嗯。
Eric Mennel They have these big incubators, right?
埃里克·门内尔（Eric Mennel）他们有这些大孵化器，对吧？
Like, there's one in New York City, where, over the course of two years, you'll come to get this product off the ground-- this product, of course, being your church.
就像，在纽约市有一个，在两年的时间里，你会开始让这个产品落地——当然，这个产品就是你的教堂。
And the same way that tech companies are obsessed with their origin stories-- one thing you hear a lot is how they've gotten their start in garages-- church plants have their own origin stories.
就像科技公司痴迷于他们的起源故事一样——你经常听到的一件事是他们是如何在车库里起步的——教堂植物也有自己的起源故事。
Over two decades ago, my wife, Amy, and I started Life Church in what was then a little two-car garage.
二十多年前，我和妻子艾米在当时只有两辆车的小车库里创办了生命教会。
That's from a video off one of these churches' websites.
这是来自这些教堂网站之一的视频。
They also have conferences.
他们也有会议。
We're going to go ahead and get started.
我们将继续并开始。
Glad you're here.
很高兴你在这里。
We'll give you one minute.
我们给你一分钟时间。
Kind of our background--
我们的背景是这样的——
So this is a session at the biggest church planting conference in the country.
这是该国最大的植堂会议的一次会议。
It happens every year in Orlando.
奥兰多每年都会发生这样的事情。
It's called Exponential.
这就是所谓的指数。
It's sort of the TechCrunch Disrupt of church planting.
这有点像 TechCrunch 对植堂的颠覆。
So we ease-- again, our goal, our target, is unchurched people, high-conversion growth rate.
所以我们放松——再说一遍，我们的目标，我们的目标，是不去教会的人，高转化率增长率。
So we're targeting them.
所以我们的目标是他们。
So we're easing them in to the process of church.
所以我们正在让他们轻松融入教会的过程。
Now, there's two gathering models, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，现在有两种聚集模型。
So this sounds so jargony-- like, high-conversion growth rate means they're trying to convert non-church people into church people?
所以这听起来很行话——高转化率增长率意味着他们试图将非教会人士转化为教会人士？
Yeah.
是的。
It's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
You actually kind of see this, like, blending of techy jargon with Christian jargon in this world.
你实际上看到了这一点，就像这个世界上技术术语与基督教术语的混合。
Like, in this particular seminar, they talk about "kingdom return on investment." Or "evangelistic networking" is one I've read, or "corporate renewal dynamics."
就像在这个特殊的研讨会上，他们谈论“王国的投资回报”。或者“福音网络”是我读过的一本书，或者“企业更新动力”。
"Launch" is a big word that they use in both worlds.
“启动”是一个他们在两个世界都使用的大词。
They talk about "launch Sundays" and "launch budgets" in church planting.
他们谈论植堂中的“启动星期日”和“启动预算”。
And the framing of what they're doing is in business terms, right?
他们正在做的事情是从商业角度出发的，对吗？
This is a story about-- Eric Mennel This is from a website from one of the gurus of this movement.
这是一个关于——埃里克·门内尔（Eric Mennel）的故事。这是来自这一运动的一位大师的网站。
His name is Tim Keller.
他的名字叫蒂姆·凯勒。
I've actually heard one pastor call him the Yoda of church planting.
事实上，我曾听一位牧师称他为植堂界的尤达。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Eric Mennel He founded this incredibly successful church in New York City called Redeemer Presbyterian church.
埃里克·门内尔（Eric Mennel）他在纽约市创立了这座非常成功的教堂，称为救赎主长老会教堂。
And it's also formed its own church planting organization called Redeemer City to City.
它还成立了自己的植堂组织，名为“救赎主城市到城市”。
So this is a video about planting more churches in New York City, and it's described entirely through business terms.
这是一个关于在纽约市建立更多教堂的视频，它完全是通过商业术语来描述的。
In 1989, New York was the least religious city in America.
1989年，纽约是美国宗教信仰最少的城市。
Less than 1% of center-city New Yorkers attended a gospel teaching church.
不到 1% 的纽约市中心居民参加福音教学教堂。
Today, that number is 5%.
如今，这个数字是 5%。
These are their own numbers, by the way.
顺便说一下，这些是他们自己的数字。
And in the video, a dot is moving up the graph.
在视频中，一个点在图表中向上移动。
We are launching a 10-year vision to see the body of Christ in New York rise from 5% to 15%.
我们正在启动一个 10 年愿景，希望纽约的基督身体从 5% 增加到 15%。
That means tripling by 2026.
这意味着到 2026 年将增加两倍。
And here's the thing.
事情是这样的。
We think that just might represent a tipping point-- a tipping point of gospel saturation that does more than just--
我们认为这可能代表了一个转折点——一个福音饱和的转折点，其作用不仅仅是——
OK, so in the tech world, the investors are these VC firms, Venture Capital firms.
好吧，在科技界，投资者就是这些风险投资公司，风险投资公司。
What's the equivalent in this world?
这个世界上还有什么可以等同的呢？
So a lot of the startup capital comes from the biggest denominations.
因此，许多启动资金来自最大的教派。
The Southern Baptists-- they spend tens of millions of dollars a year on church planting.
美南浸信会——他们每年花费数千万美元用于植堂。
But a lot of church plants actually get their funding directly from megachurches-- established churches that have thousands of members.
但许多植堂实际上直接从大型教会——拥有数千名成员的老牌教会——获得资金。
They view it as their mission to launch new, successful churches.
他们将建立新的、成功的教会视为自己的使命。
Church planting, in its modern form, started about 20 or 30 years ago.
现代形式的植堂始于大约 20 或 30 年前。
And they came about to solve what is basically a business problem.
他们的目的是解决基本上是一个商业问题。
Since the 1970s, the number of people who've said they are going to church at least once a week has dropped 40%, according to the best data on this.
根据最佳数据，自 20 世纪 70 年代以来，表示每周至少去一次教堂的人数下降了 40%。
That's from the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.
这是来自芝加哥大学国家舆论研究中心的。
And it's been especially bad among young people in their late teens and 20s.
对于十几岁和二十多岁的年轻人来说，情况尤其糟糕。
The percentage of 20-somethings who claim no religious affiliation has doubled since 1996.
自 1996 年以来，20 多岁的人中声称没有宗教信仰的比例增加了一倍。
Wow.
哇。
Eric Mennel Yeah, from 20% to almost 40%.
Eric Mennel 是的，从 20% 到几乎 40%。
And these churches have recognized that without young people, they simply cannot survive.
这些教会已经认识到，如果没有年轻人，他们根本无法生存。
So they wanted to get nonbelievers coming to church.
所以他们想让非信徒来教堂。
And to do that, what they've tried to do is disrupt the way evangelical church is usually done.
为了做到这一点，他们试图做的就是破坏福音派教会通常的运作方式。
So they'll meet in weird, lean, hipper spaces.
所以他们会在奇怪、精简、时尚的空间里见面。
They'll have better music.
他们会有更好的音乐。
And has that worked?
这有效吗？
Eric Mennel Yeah, it's worked.
埃里克·门内尔：是的，它成功了。
When you look at church attendance, one of the only groups that aren't seeing drastically falling numbers are evangelicals-- the group that has focused most seriously on church planting.
当你观察去教堂的人数时，你会发现，福音派是唯一没有出现人数大幅下降的群体之一——他们最重视植堂。
And Eric, you are here today to tell this story.
埃里克，你今天来这里是为了讲述这个故事。
You have spent months following somebody who's trying to attract funders and start one of these church plant startup churches.
你花了几个月的时间跟踪某人，他试图吸引资助者并建立一个新教堂。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
His name is Watson Jones III.
他的名字叫沃森·琼斯三世。
Watson is 34.
沃森今年 34 岁。
He's bald.
他秃头了。
He has a clean beard and thick-rimmed glasses.
他留着干净的胡须，戴着厚框眼镜。
He grew up going to a traditional Baptist Church on the south side of Chicago.
他从小就去芝加哥南边的一个传统的浸信会教堂长大。
And he knew that he wanted to start a church, even since he was a teenager.
他从十几岁起就知道自己想建立一座教堂。
So he did all the things you're supposed to do to become a pastor.
所以他做了成为一名牧师应该做的所有事情。
He went to seminary.
他去了神学院。
He got a master's in divinity.
他获得了神学硕士学位。
And from the beginning, he had a real gift for preaching.
从一开始，他就拥有真正的讲道天赋。
This is from a sermon he gave while he was still in training.
这是他在受训时的一次布道。
Remember growing up on the south side of Chicago, and my daddy was teaching me how to ride a bike.
记得我在芝加哥南部长大，我爸爸教我如何骑自行车。
Your parents ever walked alongside of you while you riding that bike?
当你骑自行车时，你的父母曾经和你一起走过吗？
And I remember, we were going down the street, and I saw some girls on the porch.
我记得，我们沿着街道走，我看到门廊上有一些女孩。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
You know, when you see them girls on the porch, you got to get it together.
你知道，当你在门廊上看到这些女孩时，你必须团结起来。
Can't have your parent holding your hand now.
现在不能让你的父母牵着你的手。
You got to straighten up and fly right.
你必须挺直身体并向右飞。
I said, Daddy, get your hands off the handlebars, man.
我说，爸爸，把你的手从车把上拿开，伙计。
I got this.
我明白了。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHING] And it didn't take me too long to get to a point where I realized, I never learned how to balance myself without my daddy's help.
[观众笑]没过多久我就意识到，如果没有爸爸的帮助，我永远不会学会如何平衡自己。
Here it is-- some of us are busy slapping Jesus' hands off the handlebars of our life.
就是这样——我们中的一些人正忙着把耶稣的手从我们生活的把手上拍下来。
There are many of us--
我们有很多人——
And Watson really knew nothing about the church planting world until a friend clued him into some of this, told him about a boot camp that Watson then attended.
沃森对植堂世界一无所知，直到一位朋友向他透露了一些信息，告诉他沃森后来参加了一个新兵训练营。
But Watson didn't understand it was this entire movement-- not until he went to a conference.
但沃森并不明白这就是整个运动——直到他去参加一个会议。
This was in 2013.
这是2013年的事。
He went to that big conference in Orlando, Exponential.
他参加了在奥兰多举行的指数大型会议。
It was eye opening.
令人大开眼界。
It was really exciting to him.
这对他来说真的很令人兴奋。
Some of what I was seeing was so new to me.
我所看到的一些东西对我来说是很新鲜的。
It was so different.
真是太不一样了。
They were wearing skinny jeans and they looked real cool.
他们穿着紧身牛仔裤，看起来很酷。
And I felt like, in my background, we still wearing suits.
我觉得，在我的背景中，我们仍然穿着西装。
And I felt like people in those conferences were talking about things that helped relate with people who were not used to going to church.
我觉得那些会议上的人们正在谈论有助于与不习惯去教堂的人建立联系的事情。
I felt like they were on the cutting edge.
我感觉他们处于最前沿。
I believed that the only people who were effective were church planters.
我相信唯一有效的人是教会建立者。
And the rest of these churches, that they need to close, or they need to adapt to all of that.
其余的这些教堂，他们需要关闭，或者他们需要适应这一切。
He did notice something else when he was there at the conference, something that was also very similar to Silicon Valley.
当他参加会议时，他确实注意到了一些其他事情，这也与硅谷非常相似。
There were at least 4,000 in the room.
房间里至少有四千人。
And I saw a lot of white people.
我看到了很多白人。
You know, I'd be the only black in the room, because it wasn't really a black thing more than it was a white evangelical thing.
你知道，我是房间里唯一的黑人，因为这并不是真正的黑人，而是白人福音派的东西。
That's true in general for this movement.
对于这场运动来说，总体来说确实如此。
In the United States, it's mostly white evangelicals doing this.
在美国，这样做的主要是白人福音派人士。
And they're mostly planting churches in the suburbs, or affluent or gentrifying areas in cities.
他们大多在郊区、城市的富裕或士绅化地区建立教堂。
So Watson wanted to do things the way these white church planters were doing them.
所以沃森想要像这些白人植堂者那样做事。
But he wanted to fill the church with people like him-- people of color who lived in the inner city.
但他想让教堂充满像他这样的人——住在市中心的有色人种。
And that difference was, to use tech world language, his competitive advantage.
用科技界的语言来说，这种差异就是他的竞争优势。
That was the thing that set him apart from thousands of other evangelicals looking for investors.
这就是他与成千上万寻找投资者的其他福音派人士的不同之处。
I saw myself practically dancing between two lines-- between the white church and the black church.
我看到自己几乎在两条线之间跳舞——白色教堂和黑色教堂之间。
I danced in the black church because it was my identity, but danced in the evangelical world because that's where a lot of financial partners were.
我在黑人教堂跳舞，因为这是我的身份，但在福音派世界跳舞，因为那里有很多金融合作伙伴。
And so, as you're about to hear, Watson jumps into it, like a proper pastoral entrepreneur, to build his church.
因此，正如您将要听到的那样，沃森像一位真正的牧师企业家一样投入其中，建造了他的教堂。
And some of what that involves is not so different from starting any business, of course.
当然，其中涉及的一些内容与创办任何企业并没有太大不同。
And some of it is very particular to bringing people to God.
其中一些是非常特别的，目的是把人们带到上帝面前。
It's a funny mix where you are taking charge of things, right?
这是一个有趣的组合，你负责一切，对吧？
You're marching to this future like you can make a difference, while all along, there's this weird powerlessness to it.
你正在迈向这个未来，就像你可以有所作为一样，但自始至终，都有一种奇怪的无力感。
Like, at some point, no matter what you do, no matter how hard you work, how hard you think about it, people either show up or they don't show up.
就像，在某些时候，无论你做什么，无论你如何努力工作，如何努力思考，人们要么出现，要么不出现。
Either they love your thing or they don't love your thing.
他们要么喜欢你的东西，要么不喜欢你的东西。
It's like that saying from Field of Dreams-- if you build it, they will come.
就像《梦想之地》里那句话一样——如果你建造了它，他们就会来。
The real-life version of that usually has a question mark at the end of it.
现实生活中的版本通常在其末尾有一个问号。
If you build it, will they come?
如果你建造它，他们会来吗？
Today on our show, we have stories about people building stuff and wondering exactly that.
今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了人们建造东西并想知道这一点的故事。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And we're just going to jump right in with Act One...
我们将直接进入第一幕......
Act One, Come All Ye Faithless.
第一幕，你们这些无信者都来吧。
So Eric Mennel, in this act, explains what happened when Watson started his years-long quest to build his church and all the things that he could only learn the hard way.
因此，埃里克·门内尔（Eric Mennel）在这一幕中解释了当沃森开始多年来建立教堂的追求时发生的事情，以及他只能通过艰苦的方式才能学到的所有东西。
Part of what's impressive about the church planting world is how thoroughly it tries to prepare its pastors for what's ahead.
教会建立界令人印象深刻的部分原因在于它如何彻底地努力让牧师为未来做好准备。
When he was first getting started, Watson enrolled in this sort of boot camp called Fellowship Associates.
当沃森刚开始工作时，他参加了名为 Fellowship Associates 的训练营。
They flew him to Arkansas every two weeks for a few days to train.
他们每两周让他飞到阿肯色州进行几天训练。
They teach you everything, from fundraising, to developing a core team, to writing a philosophy of ministry, which is basically a business prospectus, to crafting a budget, to funding the budget, to managing donors, to gathering people around a vision and an idea.
他们教你一切，从筹款到建立核心团队，到撰写事工理念（基本上是一份商业招股说明书），到制定预算，到为预算提供资金，到管理捐助者，到围绕愿景和想法聚集人们。
Fellowship Associates set Watson up with a year-and-a-half-long residency at a church plant like the one he wanted to create in a poor neighborhood in North Philadelphia, where Watson learned the nuts and bolts of a daily church operation.
联谊会为沃森安排了一个为期一年半的驻地，就像他想在费城北部的一个贫困社区建立的那样，沃森在那里学习了日常教会运作的具体细节。
One of the main things to accomplish during the residency was working out a business plan.
驻地期间要完成的主要事情之一是制定商业计划。
And I mean that literally-- a business plan, a clear idea for his church that he could pitch to raise money, with a clear, simple mission.
我的意思是字面上的意思——一个商业计划，一个他的教会的清晰想法，他可以通过一个明确、简单的使命来筹集资金。
We want to create a church that will seek to reach people who don't know Jesus Christ or who are not a part of a church.
我们希望创建一个教会，以接触那些不认识耶稣基督或不属于教会的人。
Part one of the pitch-- location.
推介的第一部分——地点。
He'd stick with his vision to serve the kind of neighborhood church planters don't usually go into.
他会坚持自己的愿景，为社区植堂者提供通常不涉及的服务。
For decades, when church painters went into urban neighborhoods, they usually picked gentrifying ones or wealthier ones.
几十年来，当教堂画家进入城市社区时，他们通常会选择中产阶级或更富裕的社区。
Watson chose an area on Philly's northwest side that was not gentrifying.
沃森选择了费城西北侧一个没有高档化的地区。
It was mostly black, mostly low income.
其中大部分是黑人，大多是低收入群体。
I am a product of the South Side of Chicago.
我是芝加哥南区的产物。
My whole life has been living and navigating as a black Chicagoan on the South Side.
我的一生都是作为一名芝加哥黑人在南区生活和航行。
That was core to me.
这对我来说是核心。
So I really wanted to target the thoroughly urban Philadelphian, to engage people who Jesus would engage.
所以我真的很想瞄准彻底城市化的费城人，吸引那些耶稣愿意接触的人。
Jesus was willing to be associated with prostitutes and with tax collectors.
耶稣愿意与妓女和税吏交往。
I had the idea of whosoever, we'll let them come.
我有想法，无论是谁，我们都会让他们来。
Whoever wants to be a part of our church can be a part of our church.
任何想成为我们教会一部分的人都可以成为我们教会的一部分。
Then I also wanted to be able to reach people that were in my age group initially-- at the time, I was 28, 29, 30-- and then also trying to reach older people-- my mother's generation, which is a little more stable, so--
然后我也希望能够接触到最初与我同龄的人——当时我28岁、29岁、30岁——然后也尝试接触更年长的人——我母亲那一代，比较稳定一点，所以——
So that was part one of the pitch-- location.
这就是推介的一部分——地点。
Part two of the pitch-- the building, or lack thereof.
球场的第二部分——建筑物，或者没有建筑物。
They wouldn't have a building.
他们不会有建筑物。
This is a strategy that had been really successful for planting churches elsewhere, in well-off or gentrifying neighborhoods.
对于在其他地方、富裕或中产阶级化的社区建立教堂来说，这是一个非常成功的策略。
They don't meet in an actual church.
他们并不是在真正的教堂里见面。
The idea is that the church buildings carry a lot of cultural baggage.
这个想法是教堂建筑承载着很多文化包袱。
They can be stodgy and uncomfortable.
它们可能显得古板且不舒服。
So to get away from all that, and as a sort of hack to save money early on, church plants will scrap the building.
因此，为了摆脱这一切，并且作为一种早期省钱的手段，教堂植物将废弃这座建筑。
In most places, this is church planting 101.
在大多数地方，这是植堂 101。
I said, man, churches spend too much time focusing on a building.
我说，伙计，教堂花了太多时间专注于建筑物。
And they put so much money into a building.
他们投入了很多钱建造一栋大楼。
So early, early, early on, I wasn't thinking anything about owning a building.
很早、很早、很早，我并没有考虑过拥有一栋大楼。
He figured they could meet in a coffee shop, or a bookstore, or something, even his living room.
他认为他们可以在咖啡店、书店或其他地方见面，甚至是他的客厅。
And finally, part three of the pitch-- a business partner.
最后，是推介的第三部分——商业伙伴。
No, OK, I'm going to give you a picture of myself at this point, OK?
不，好吧，我现在给你一张我自己的照片，好吗？
You ready?
你准备好了吗？
This is AJ Smith.
这是 AJ 史密斯。
AJ Smith I'm this white kid with dreadlocks all the way down my back, with a scraggly beard, wearing moccasins with holes in them, pants that have been patched up a million times, flannels ripped up.
AJ 史密斯 我是一个白人孩子，长发绺一直垂到背后，留着凌乱的胡须，穿着破洞的莫卡辛鞋，裤子已经打了一百万遍，法兰绒被撕破了。
Now, AJ, a good day for him is to go sit in the mountains and just sit there by himself.
现在，AJ，对他来说，最好的一天就是去山里坐坐，一个人坐在那里。
That's a good day for him.
这对他来说是美好的一天。
That's kind of how he dressed.
他就是这样穿的。
Crunchy dude.
脆脆的家伙。
Watson Jones Yeah, no, yeah.
沃森·琼斯 是的，不，是的。
But he was a nice guy.
但他是一个好人。
AJ actually brought a lot more than just worn-out moccasins to the table.
事实上，AJ 带来的不仅仅是破旧的鹿皮鞋。
He was training at a church nearby to plant a church in the inner city.
他正在附近的一座教堂接受培训，以便在内城建立一座教堂。
He's 31 now, and he had grown up in a church plant.
他现在 31 岁了，是在一个教堂里长大的。
He'd gone to seminary.
他去了神学院。
He'd run a homeless ministry.
他负责无家可归者事工。
Once you got past the dreadlocks, AJ seemed like a great number-two guy.
一旦你摆脱了辫子，AJ 看起来就像是一个伟大的二号人物。
And he was fired up to help make Watson's vision a reality.
他热衷于帮助沃森的愿景成为现实。
I really believe strongly in submitting to African-American leadership, if you're in a largely minority setting-- or minority leadership, even.
我真的坚信要服从非裔美国人的领导，如果你处于一个主要是少数群体的环境中——或者甚至是少数群体的领导地位。
So I'm this white guy.
所以我就是这个白人。
So I say, yeah, man.
所以我说，是的，伙计。
I love the idea of, like-- I want to be in the inner city.
我喜欢这样的想法——我想去市中心。
I want to plant churches.
我想建立教会。
Let me spend some time under you and just helping you do your thing.
让我在你手下花一些时间，帮助你做你的事情。
Talked with my wife.
和我妻子谈过。
We were like, yeah.
我们当时想，是的。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
We prayed about it.
我们为此祈祷。
And we felt like it was what the lord wanted.
我们觉得这就是主想要的。
It was going to be called Restoration Church.
它将被称为复兴教堂。
Watson didn't have the direct connections to megachurches who might help fund Restoration.
沃森与可能帮助资助复兴运动的大型教会没有直接联系。
But he'd heard about some people who did-- a church planting network called Orchard Group.
但他听说过一些人这样做了——一个名为 Orchard Group 的植堂网络。
Orchard is this middleman organization.
Orchard就是这个中间人组织。
They help connect church plants to established churches that have a lot of money.
他们帮助将教会植堂与拥有大量资金的知名教会联系起来。
Orchard Group is very selective.
果园集团非常挑剔。
Of the thousands of people planting churches every year, about 100 apply with them, and the network only supports three or four.
每年有数千人建立教会，其中约有 100 人向他们提出申请，而该网络只支持三到四家。
Watson called the president of the network directly.
沃森直接给网络总裁打电话。
And before even putting in a formal application, they were excited about his vision.
在提交正式申请之前，他们就对他的愿景感到兴奋。
So in 2013, Restoration Church became one of the few churches they supported.
于是在2013年，复兴教会成为他们支持的少数教会之一。
They helped line up a good chunk of startup capital-- in total, about $100,000 per year for three years.
他们帮助筹集了大量启动资金——三年内每年总计约 10 万美元。
Most of that was just going to cover his salary and half of AJ's.
其中大部分只够支付他的工资和 AJ 的一半。
The reason for the three-year funding terms is that surveys of new churches show, if a church plant isn't sustainable after three years, it will likely never be sustainable.
资助期限为三年的原因是，对新教会的调查显示，如果一个教会植堂在三年后不可持续，那么它很可能永远不会可持续。
And nobody wants to sink their money into a failing church.
没有人愿意把钱投入到一个失败的教会中。
And so, with their seed funding in place, the countdown started.
因此，随着种子资金的到位，倒计时开始了。
It was April 2014, and Watson and AJ had three years to get this church off the ground, to attract enough people to become self-sustaining.
那是 2014 年 4 月，沃森和 AJ 用三年的时间让这座教堂动工，吸引足够多的人实现自给自足。
Initially, they just wanted people to come to a once-a-week Bible study at Watson's home.
最初，他们只是想让人们来沃森家里参加每周一次的圣经学习。
So the first thing they did was try to drum up interest the old-fashioned way-- through outreach on the streets in the neighborhood.
因此，他们做的第一件事就是尝试用老式的方式来激发人们的兴趣——通过在附近的街道上进行宣传。
Early on, man, me and AJ were out on corners, passing out coffee, free coffee, on bus stops.
早些时候，我、我和 AJ 在街角、公交车站分发免费咖啡。
We would make signs.
我们会做标志。
We'd go to the community days.
我们会去社区日。
We'd go to volunteer at elementary schools.
我们会去小学做志愿者。
We passed out water.
我们把水喝掉了。
We would have our team standing on crowded corners in the hot summer.
在炎热的夏天，我们会让我们的团队站在拥挤的角落。
We were handing out Blow Pops to people.
我们向人们分发吹气棒。
And I think we put a little message on them-- let the love of God blow you away-- so corny.
我想我们给他们传达了一个小信息——让上帝的爱震撼你——太老套了。
So corny.
太老土了。
But we were trying to get people.
但我们正在努力吸引人。
It kind of felt like anything could happen at any moment.
感觉好像随时都有可能发生任何事情。
So as we meet with people, we're going to ask, hey, man, who are three to four people you think would be interested in this?
因此，当我们与人们见面时，我们会问，嘿，伙计，您认为谁会对这个感兴趣？ 三到四个人？
And we met a ton of people, a lot of people.
我们遇到了很多人，很多人。
We prayed for and prayed with a lot of people.
我们为很多人祈祷，并与很多人一起祈祷。
Over the course of just a few months, they had conversations with hundreds of people.
在短短几个月的时间里，他们与数百人进行了交谈。
And occasionally, some of them would take down Watson's address and show up to the Bible study.
有时，他们中的一些人会记下沃森的地址并参加圣经学习。
Any time a new person would come, it was like, ah, this is exciting!
每当有新人来的时候，我都会觉得，啊，这太令人兴奋了！
This is great!
这太棒了！
We had interest from all kinds of people-- people who didn't go to church, people who did go to church were very interested in us, because we looked different.
各种各样的人都对我们感兴趣——那些没有去教堂的人，那些去教堂的人都对我们非常感兴趣，因为我们看起来不同。
And they liked us.
他们喜欢我们。
They liked our spirit.
他们喜欢我们的精神。
For the most part, people were very receptive, and even, I'd say, very respectful of the ministry and what we were trying to do, and were very appreciative.
在大多数情况下，人们非常愿意接受，甚至，我想说，非常尊重事工和我们正在努力做的事情，并且非常感激。
But it didn't translate.
但它没有翻译。
We largely were not successful at getting people to come to our outreaches.
我们在很大程度上没有成功地让人们参与我们的外展活动。
It was a major disappointment.
这是一个很大的失望。
Man, I probably gained 20 pounds that year alone.
伙计，仅那一年我就可能增加了 20 磅。
It was extremely stressful.
压力非常大。
It felt like the outreaches were missing the mark.
感觉外展活动没有达到目标。
The goal had always been to reach people who weren't served by other churches, who weren't going to church.
我们的目标一直是接触那些没有受到其他教会服务、不去教堂的人。
But by the end of six months, it was clear-- the people showing up, for the most part, were already church people coming from other churches.
但到了六个月后，情况就很明显了——大部分出现的人已经是来自其他教会的信徒了。
And they realized, maybe one of their basic premises was wrong.
他们意识到，也许他们的基本前提之一是错误的。
Something that other church plants always did, something that worked in the suburbs, was not working here.
其他教会植堂经常做的事情，在郊区行之有效的事情，在这里行不通。
I think, in retrospect, what probably hurt us is, the thing to bring them to was a Bible study in my house.
我想，现在回想起来，可能伤害我们的是，带他们去我家进行圣经学习。
The first thing they'd ask me is, where is your church?
他们问我的第一件事是，你的教堂在哪里？
Oh, well, we meet in my house.
哦，好吧，我们在我家见面。
And one lady told me-- she said, you guys are a cult.
一位女士告诉我——她说，你们是邪教。
You call me when you get a church.
当你找到教堂时你给我打电话。
Especially, I think, among black people, the more out of the box or avant garde you are, the less likely you are to be trusted.
尤其是，我认为，在黑人中，你越是打破常规、越是前卫，你就越不可能被信任。
Theologically, we say all day long, the church is the people of God.
从神学上来说，我们整天说教会是神的子民。
The people in your city, in your neighborhood, does not understand church apart from a building, a preacher, a choir or a praise team, and something that looks like a church service, period.
你所在的城市、你的社区的人们，除了建筑物、传道人、唱诗班或赞美队，以及一些看起来像教堂礼拜的东西之外，就无法理解教会。
That was really a gut check to us, because that was our-- that was plan A.
这对我们来说确实是一次直觉检查，因为那是我们的 A 计划。
And we weren't really sure what plan B was.
我们不太确定 B 计划是什么。
Plan A was the outreaches?
A计划是外展活动吗？
AJ Smith Yeah.
AJ 史密斯 是的。
I mean, we were going to be the people who were out there on the streets, pastors who were very much present with the people.
我的意思是，我们将成为那些走在街上的人，那些与人们在一起的牧师。
And that's how we'll grow the church.
这就是我们发展教会的方式。
That didn't work.
那行不通。
Hm.
嗯。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Aj Smith I think people have been to church.
Aj Smith 我认为人们去过教堂。
I think people have done church.
我认为人们已经去过教堂了。
And I think people don't have great experiences with church.
我认为人们对教会没有很好的经历。
And because of that, I think the last thing people want to do is waste a day, in their mind, of the weekend coming to church.
正因为如此，我认为人们最不想做的事情就是浪费一天周末去教堂。
Yeah.
是的。
AJ Smith I love what you all are doing, but you know-- OK, maybe I'll come by sometime.
AJ Smith 我喜欢你们所做的事情，但是你知道——好吧，也许我什么时候会来。
They ain't coming to church.
他们不来教堂了。
They've been to church.
他们去过教堂。
Their uncle started a church 20 years ago, and they had to go sit through three hours on a Sunday morning, couldn't wait to get out of there.
他们的叔叔二十年前创办了一座教堂，他们必须在周日早上坐上三个小时，迫不及待地想离开那里。
They couldn't wait till they were 18, and they didn't have to go to church anymore.
他们迫不及待地想等到18岁，就不用再去教堂了。
This is perhaps where planting a church is most different from starting a company.
这也许是建立教会与创办公司最不同的地方。
It is very hard to get someone to try a new app.
让某人尝试新应用程序非常困难。
But what Watson was attempting seems even harder-- to get someone to try something they've already tried and rejected, and then to readjust their whole way of understanding the universe and their feelings about God, and to start going to church, and to help fund that church.
但沃森的尝试似乎更加困难——让人们尝试他们已经尝试过但拒绝的东西，然后重新调整他们理解宇宙和对上帝的感受的整个方式，并开始去教堂，并帮助资助该教堂。
It's exactly the problem the church planting movement is supposed to solve, and does solve in lots of new churches.
这正是植堂运动应该解决的问题，并且确实在许多新教堂中解决了。
But the way most church planters usually solve this problem is to make church feel more relevant, meet in weirder spaces, like warehouses or coffee shops.
但大多数植堂者通常解决这个问题的方法是让教会感觉更有意义，在更奇怪的空间聚会，比如仓库或咖啡馆。
There are church plants in breweries.
啤酒厂里有教堂植物。
The music in a typical church plant does not sound like the music in a traditional church.
典型教堂中的音乐听起来不像传统教堂中的音乐。
There are electric guitars with lots of effects on them.
有些电吉他有很多效果器。
If they sing hymns, they're done in a style more like Mumford and Sons than Mozart.
如果他们唱赞美诗，他们的风格更像是芒福德父子乐队，而不是莫扎特。
[MUSIC - "I WILL WAIT" BY MUMFORD AND SONS]
[音乐 - MUMFORD AND SONS 的“I WILL WAIT”]
(SINGING) And I will-- Eric Mennel This is a church plant worship service where they're literally just playing Mumford and Sons.
（唱歌）我会的——埃里克·门内尔（Eric Mennel） 这是一个教堂植堂礼拜仪式，他们实际上只是在演奏《芒福德父子》（Mumford and Sons）。
And I got to say, the lyrics, "I will wait for you," land very differently when you're thinking about the rapture.
我必须说，当你想到狂喜时，歌词“我会等你”的表现会非常不同。
(SINGING) I will wait.
（唱）我会等待。
I will wait for you.
我会等你。
I will wait.
我将等待。
I will wait--
我会等待——
These churches are intentionally made to feel like going to a concert, not like going to church.
这些教堂故意让人感觉像是去听一场音乐会，而不是去教堂。
There are professional lighting systems, and even smoke machines in some cases.
有专业的照明系统，在某些情况下甚至还有烟雾机。
But the thing about relevancy is that it's relative.
但相关性是相对的。
A lot of that stuff-- the lights, the music-- it was designed by white people for white people.
很多东西——灯光、音乐——都是白人为白人设计的。
What Watson and AJ were finding was that, in an African-American context in northwest Philly, those things don't necessarily feel relevant.
沃森和 AJ 发现，在费城西北部的非裔美国人背景下，这些事情不一定感觉相关。
So nine months in, Watson and AJ decided to scrap a key part of their business plan, one of the things that was going to make their church so different.
九个月后，沃森和 AJ 决定放弃他们商业计划的一个关键部分，而这正是让他们的教会如此不同的原因之一。
And that's the part about having no building.
这就是没有建筑物的部分。
They decided to reboot and to hold regular weekly services in a building, like the neighborhood seemed to want.
他们决定重新启动，并在大楼内每周定期举行服务，就像邻居似乎想要的那样。
They did two preview services-- preview services are a kind of beta test for the church-- in a banquet hall.
他们在宴会厅举行了两次预演仪式——预演仪式是教堂的一种测试。
They wanted to pick a space that didn't carry any of the negative connotations and baggage of a traditional church.
他们想选择一个不带有任何传统教堂负面含义和包袱的空间。
But it was maybe a bit of an overcorrection.
但这可能有点矫枉过正了。
We went to this place called Temptations.
我们去了一个叫做“诱惑”的地方。
And we went to Temptations--
我们去了诱惑——
Yeah, yeah, we-- yeah, we made all kind of jokes about that.
是的，是的，我们——是的，我们为此开了各种玩笑。
Yeah, Temptations.
是的，诱惑。
The first time we went there, they just had trash everywhere-- hair weaves, and bras, and open bottles, and--
我们第一次去那里时，他们到处都是垃圾——发辫、胸罩、打开的瓶子，还有——
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
We saw two bras, just on the floor, while trying to set our own stuff up.
当我们试图整理自己的东西时，我们看到两个胸罩就在地板上。
So next, they tried an elementary school cafeteria.
接下来，他们尝试了一家小学食堂。
That's where they moved out of beta and held their first-ever regular Sunday service.
在那里他们结束了测试并举行了他们的第一次常规周日服务。
In the church planting world, it's called launch Sunday.
在教会建立界，这天被称为启动星期日。
And it's a huge deal for a church plant-- a sort flag-on-the-moon moment saying, we are here to stay.
对于一个教会来说，这是一件大事——就像在月球上升旗的时刻一样，我们会留下来。
It was March 2015, 11 months after they started, just about two years left on the countdown clock.
那是 2015 年 3 月，距离他们开始 11 个月，倒计时只剩下大约两年了。
They put out the word on Facebook, on flyers.
他们在 Facebook 上和传单上发布了这个消息。
They told family and friends.
他们告诉家人和朋友。
And then they prayed.
然后他们祈祷。
Were you nervous before?
之前紧张吗？
Watson Jones Very, yeah.
沃森·琼斯 非常，是的。
Very nervous, yes.
非常紧张，是的。
What if no one comes?
万一没人来怎么办？
Why would they come?
他们为什么要来？
There was a guy I knew who had launched a church.
我认识一个人，他创办了一座教堂。
And every week, it decreased until, like, a month later, it didn't exist anymore.
每周，它都会减少，直到一个月后，它不再存在。
So in my mind, I'm like, well, what if that's me?
所以在我看来，我想，好吧，如果那是我怎么办？
What do I tell these donors who gave a lot of money to this?
我该对那些为此捐了很多钱的捐助者说什么？
And what will I tell my wife?
我要告诉我的妻子什么？
What will I tell my family?
我要告诉我的家人什么？
All of that.
所有这些。
Amen.
阿门。
You may be seated in the presence of the lord.
你可以坐在主面前。
Watson woke up on the morning of March 22, 2015.
2015 年 3 月 22 日早上，沃森醒来。
He put on his brown corduroy pants, and a blue patterned shirt, and a white cardigan.
他穿上棕色灯芯绒裤子、蓝色图案衬衫和白色羊毛衫。
And at 11:00 AM, he stepped up to the podium in front of more than 100 cafeteria chairs.
上午11:00，他在100多张食堂椅子前走上讲台。
And he started to pray.
他开始祈祷。
Lord, while we use technical terms of launching, and all of that stuff, Lord, we don't want any of all of this to stand in the way of you getting glory and you getting honor.
主啊，虽然我们使用启动的技术术语，以及所有这些东西，主啊，我们不希望所有这些都妨碍你获得荣耀和荣誉。
What did the launch look like?
发布会是什么样的？
How many people were there?
当时有多少人？
Man, I think it might have been maybe 150, maybe more.
伙计，我想可能有 150 个，甚至更多。
That must have been huge.
那一定是巨大的。
That must have felt really great.
那感觉一定很棒。
It did.
确实如此。
I cried, actually.
我真的哭了。
And I'm not really a public crier.
我并不是一个真正的公开呼吁者。
But I cried that day.
但那天我哭了。
Why?
为什么？
Watson Jones Well, partly because I was surprised.
沃森·琼斯 好吧，部分原因是我很惊讶。
When you have a launch, there's a gamble, man.
当你发布产品时，那就是一场赌博，伙计。
And the deepest fear is, no one comes.
最深的恐惧是，没有人来。
And the fact that I walked in, and there were-- it was a lot of people there.
事实上，我走进去，那里有很多人。
I wanted to talk about this, because I need to define, why are we starting a church in a city of churches?
我想谈论这个，因为我需要定义，为什么我们要在一座教堂之城建立一座教堂？
You can drive down the street and you can see 10 of them on one block.
你沿着街道行驶，你可以在一个街区看到 10 家这样的商店。
There's a street not far from here where you can count five of them on one block.
离这里不远有一条街，你可以在一个街区里数到五个。
And it's simply to say this.
而且就是这么简单的说一下。
You can't have too many, number one.
你不能有太多，第一。
But number two, we are being sent-- we, as the Church of Restoration, are being sent to represent the reconciler.
但第二，我们被派遣——作为复兴教会，我们被派遣去代表和解者。
Amen.
阿门。
Can we give the Lord praise one more time for His word going forth this morning?
我们能否因主今天早上发出的话语再次赞美主呢？
Yeah, we maxed out.
是的，我们已经用尽了。
We absolutely-- we had standing room in the-- it was standing room in the back.
我们绝对——我们有站立的空间——后面有站立的空间。
We completely maxed out.
我们完全用尽了。
And it was like, OK this is great.
就像，好吧，这太棒了。
So when I saw those people, I was like, OK, this is going to be like a regular church-type thing-- see you next week.
所以当我看到那些人时，我想，好吧，这就像一场常规的教堂活动——下周见。
Leah Smith again, AJ's wife.
莉亚·史密斯（Leah Smith），AJ 的妻子。
Leah Smith I wasn't thinking about it at that time, Eric.
Leah Smith 我当时并没有考虑这个，Eric。
I wasn't thinking about church planting-- you kind of start small, and then you grow, and then you grow, and then you grow.
我没有考虑建立教会——你从小处开始，然后你成长，然后你成长，然后你成长。
I wasn't anticipating that, in the weeks to follow, the numbers would drop so harshly.
我没想到在接下来的几周内，数字会下降得如此严重。
The next week, only about 60 people showed up, fewer than half the launch.
接下来的一周，只有大约 60 人到场，不到发布会的一半。
And then the next week was about the same, maybe even a little fewer.
然后接下来的一周大致相同，甚至可能更少。
It turns out, a lot of the people who packed the church that first week were friends and family-- people already committed to other churches, but who came out once to show support.
事实证明，第一周挤满教堂的很多人都是朋友和家人——他们已经委身于其他教堂，但他们曾经出来表示支持。
And so before long, Watson and AJ were back to the small group of about 30 or 40 people they had pulled in before moving into the building.
不久之后，沃森和 AJ 又回到了他们在搬进大楼之前召集的大约 30 或 40 人的小团体中。
They were a year and a half into their three-year mission and they were stuck.
他们的三年任务已经进行了一年半，但他们陷入了困境。
So they tried new tactics, more direct forms of networking.
因此他们尝试了新的策略，更直接的网络形式。
They went door to door and prayed with people in the neighborhood.
他们挨家挨户地与邻居一起祈祷。
They tried getting members to invite their friends to church, rather than just strangers.
他们试图让成员邀请他们的朋友来教堂，而不仅仅是陌生人。
We would have invite cards.
我们会有邀请卡。
And we would say, listen, let's invite them to church on this day.
我们会说，听着，让我们在这一天邀请他们去教堂。
We had them all on MailChimp.
我们把它们全部放在 MailChimp 上。
When we had big parties, like a Christmas party, we would email them out.
当我们举办大型聚会（例如圣诞聚会）时，我们会通过电子邮件将其发送出去。
And we would see who read them.
我们会看看谁读了它们。
Very few people would even open them.
很少有人会打开它们。
Some people would come, visit for a week, maybe two.
有些人会来参观一周，也许两周。
But they wouldn't stay.
但他们不会留下来。
We had good follow-up.
我们有很好的后续行动。
Like, we always-- me and AJ would hand-write cards to visitors.
就像，我们总是——我和 AJ 会手写卡片给访客。
And there would be people who would comment, like, I love this church, all this other stuff.
会有人发表评论，比如，我喜欢这座教堂，以及所有其他东西。
And they just never-- they would never come back.
他们永远不会回来。
All these people would visit.
所有这些人都会来参观。
Why wouldn't they stay?
他们为什么不留下来？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Eric Mennel There were periods over the next year where attendance was so low, one person told me it felt like the band was playing for itself.
埃里克·门内尔 (Eric Mennel) 在接下来的一年中，有段时间出席率很低，有人告诉我，感觉乐队是在为自己演奏。
The hardest stretches for Watson?
沃森最难的伸展运动是什么？
Summer months.
夏季。
Summer months is when everybody in Philadelphia went to the shore, you know?
夏季是费城每个人都去海边的时候，你知道吗？
Or everybody traveled.
或者说大家都出去旅游了。
And so attendance-wise, man, it felt like someone took a scalpel and cut massive chunks off the church.
因此，就出席率而言，伙计，感觉就像有人拿着手术刀从教堂上切下了大块。
Those periods were extremely deflating.
那段时期非常令人沮丧。
I mean, they were dark moments.
我的意思是，那是黑暗的时刻。
Sometimes, I would battle depression.
有时，我会与抑郁作斗争。
Most preachers tend to take Monday off, because you tend to be more prone to depression on a Monday, because Sunday, you expend so much of yourself, you know?
大多数传教士倾向于周一休息，因为你在周一更容易抑郁，因为周日，你消耗了很多自己，你知道吗？
You're preaching, and then you're talking to people.
你在讲道，然后你在与人交谈。
You're counseling people.
你在给人们提供咨询。
You have meetings and all that other stuff.
你有会议和所有其他事情。
But for a church planter in an urban church struggling to move this thing, it was exponentially worse.
但对于城市教会中努力移动这件事的植堂者来说，情况要糟糕得多。
You're tired.
你累了。
You're busy.
你很忙。
You're lonely.
你很孤独。
You're burned out.
你已经精疲力尽了。
I would wonder, was this God, or was this me?
我会想，这是上帝，还是我？
Did God really call me to Philly, or did he not?
上帝真的呼召我去费城吗？
I felt like quitting, because any church planter I would ever talk to would say that they felt that at some point.
我想放弃，因为任何与我交谈过的植堂者都会说他们在某个时候也有过这样的感觉。
Nearly two years went by like this.
就这样过去了将近两年的时间。
They'd get up to 60 people, and then they'd drop again.
他们会增加到 60 人，然后又减少。
They were coming up on March 2017, their three-year deadline.
2017 年 3 月是他们的三年期限。
It's not that you can't plant a church in a neighborhood like this and succeed.
这并不是说你不能在这样的社区建立一座教堂并取得成功。
The church that Watson was a resident at, run by a pastor named Dr. Eric Mason-- it's nearly 12 years old now, with hundreds of attendees every week.
沃森居住的教堂由埃里克·梅森博士 (Dr. Eric Mason) 牧师经营，已有近 12 年历史，每周都有数百名信徒参加。
Another preacher, named Doug Logan, has done something similar in Camden, New Jersey.
另一位传教士道格·洛根（Doug Logan）在新泽西州卡姆登做了类似的事情。
But these guys, the Erics and the Dougs-- they are machines.
但这些人，埃里克斯和道格斯——他们是机器。
They are not like normal people.
他们不像正常人。
They write books and organize conferences.
他们写书并组织会议。
They have web series.
他们有网络连续剧。
It's exactly the kind of mentality you imagine in a successful startup CEO.
这正是你所想象的成功初创公司首席执行官的心态。
Watson was a talented guy with a lot of energy.
沃森是一个才华横溢、精力充沛的人。
But he wasn't that.
但他不是那样的。
A lot of the times, I felt it was something about me.
很多时候，我觉得这与我有关。
Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
也许我做错了什么。
Maybe I'm missing something.
也许我错过了一些东西。
This is not happening because you're just not a great leader, or you're not a great preacher, or you're not a great whatever, whatever, whatever.
这种情况不会发生，因为你不是一个伟大的领导者，或者你不是一个伟大的传教士，或者你不是一个伟大的人，无论什么，无论什么。
I don't know.
我不知道。
On top of all this, Watson and his wife were dealing with all kinds of complicated family stuff.
除此之外，沃森和他的妻子还要处理各种复杂的家庭事务。
We had a miscarriage before my third child, and that was very painful.
我们在生第三个孩子之前流产了，那是非常痛苦的。
We had a diagnosis of autism on my first child.
我们对我的第一个孩子进行了自闭症诊断。
And in that same period, while starting a church, my wife almost died while giving birth to my final child.
在同一时期，在创办教堂时，我的妻子在生我最后一个孩子时差点去世。
And all of that was a lot of trauma.
所有这些都是很大的创伤。
I think it probably eventually made me wonder, is my time up?
我想这最终可能让我想知道，我的时间到了吗？
Time was up.
时间到了。
The three-year clock ran down.
三年的时钟已经过去了。
They still had some money coming in from their donors, and they were getting by.
他们还有一些来自捐助者的钱，而且还勉强度日。
But Watson knew, some of those donors were going away.
但沃森知道，其中一些捐赠者即将离开。
It wasn't going to be enough to pay both him and AJ.
这不足以支付他和 AJ 的工资。
So last spring, Watson took a trip back home to Chicago, alone, to see his family.
因此，去年春天，沃森独自一人回到芝加哥的家，看望他的家人。
That weekend was Mother's Day weekend, actually.
事实上，那个周末是母亲节周末。
And I was on a layover in Chicago and I got to see my mother, right?
我当时在芝加哥短暂停留，我去见了我的母亲，对吗？
And my mother-- it was the first time I had been with her on a Mother's Day for some years-- like, five years.
还有我的母亲——这是我多年来第一次在母亲节和她在一起——大概五年了。
It was so special.
太特别了。
And I just started to feel like, man, if I could not go back, I wouldn't go back.
我开始觉得，伙计，如果我不能回去，我就不会回去。
I loved my church deeply.
我深深地爱着我的教会。
But I started to feel like the Lord was saying, it's time.
但我开始觉得主在说，是时候了。
So I talked to my wife about it.
所以我和我的妻子谈论了这件事。
And I just said, look, I'm just going to tell you this.
我只是说，看，我只是要告诉你这个。
Don't get mad at me.
别生我的气。
But I'm just going to let you know exactly what I'm thinking here.
但我只是想让你确切地知道我在这里的想法。
And my wife said to me, you know, Watson, I've been feeling the same way.
我的妻子对我说，你知道，华生，我也有同样的感觉。
And then, one Sunday morning last October, Watson got up in front of the congregation of Restoration.
然后，去年十月的一个周日早上，沃森在复辟派会众面前起床。
And he gave them a sermon that seemed like advice to prepare them for the road ahead.
他给他们做了一次布道，似乎是为他们未来的道路做好准备的建议。
This is the part in your life where you cannot find your way.
这是你生命中找不到出路的部分。
You don't know to go left.
你不知道向左走。
You don't know to go right.
你不知道该往右走。
You don't know to go up.
你不知道要上去。
You don't know to go down.
你不知道该往下走。
You don't know who to call.
你不知道该给谁打电话。
You don't know where to go.
你不知道该去哪里。
This is the in-between times.
这是中间的时间。
And in-between times, according to the biblical narrative, have the ability to either make you, or they can break you.
根据圣经的叙述，在这之间的时间里，他们要么有能力成就你，要么有能力摧毁你。
After the service, he had all the members stay for a meeting, at which point he said he was officially stepping down and they'd be going home to Chicago with his family.
仪式结束后，他让所有成员留下来开会，此时他说他将正式辞职，他们将与家人一起回到芝加哥的家中。
Taking over the church, AJ.
接管教堂，AJ.
My first-- my first reaction was no-- like, no, no.
我的第一反应是不，不，不。
AJ's wife, Leah.
AJ 的妻子莉亚。
Leah Smith No, you're not.
利亚·史密斯 不，你不是。
I mean, majority African-American church.
我的意思是，大多数非裔美国人教会。
You're white.
你是白人。
To be clear, Leah's mother is black.
需要明确的是，莉亚的母亲是黑人。
But her father is white and a pastor for majority-black congregations.
但她的父亲是白人，是黑人占多数的教会的牧师。
But, she says, AJ is really, really white.
但是，她说，AJ 真的非常白人。
AJ-- he's not submerged in black culture.
AJ——他并没有沉浸在黑人文化中。
He's just not.
他只是不是。
I mean, it just was just weird to me.
我的意思是，这对我来说很奇怪。
And I felt a little bit self-conscious about it, and still do.
我对此感到有点不自在，现在仍然如此。
After moving back to Chicago, Watson looked around for another job.
搬回芝加哥后，沃森四处寻找另一份工作。
And he found himself drawn to exactly what he had been trying to disrupt-- an old church with a few hundred members and lots of years of baggage, Compassion Baptist Church.
他发现自己被他一直试图破坏的东西所吸引——一个拥有数百名成员和多年包袱的古老教堂，慈悲浸信会教堂。
It was originally incorporated in 1879, two years after the end of Reconstruction.
它最初成立于 1879 年，即重建结束两年后。
This is a recording from the morning Watson was installed as the new pastor there.
这是沃森被任命为那里的新牧师那天早上的录音。
He's onstage in a suit.
他穿着西装出现在舞台上。
Turns out, the look really works for him.
事实证明，这种造型真的很适合他。
And behind him is the church's choir-- which, alone, is almost as large as Restoration was when Watson left.
他身后是教堂的唱诗班——仅此一个唱诗班的人数就几乎与沃森离开时复辟时期的人数一样多。
At the church I'm at, for instance, the church is older than me.
例如，在我所在的教堂，教堂的年龄比我大。
It's 138 years old.
已经138岁了。
And my wife and I definitely brought the median age down some when we got there.
当我们到达那里时，我和我的妻子确实将中位年龄降低了一些。
But it's been interesting to see the life in that church with me being there, the new, young guy.
但看到我这个新来的年轻人在教堂里的生活很有趣。
Younger people are starting to come or come back.
年轻人开始回来或回来。
So it shows me that you can be effective in an established church.
所以它向我表明你可以在一个已建立的教会中发挥作用。
But seven years ago, I didn't believe that.
但七年前，我还不相信这一点。
Seven or eight years ago, I didn't believe that at all.
七八年前，我根本不相信这一点。
Some of those churches, man, survived the civil rights movement.
天哪，其中一些教堂在民权运动中幸存下来。
Some of those churches brought black people in these cities through hellacious times.
其中一些教会带领这些城市的黑人度过了地狱般的时期。
And then I, this little 26, 27, 28-year-old guy who just got a master's degree, wet behind the ears, I got the audacity to stand and critique something that's been around longer than me?
然后我，这个26、27、28岁的小伙子，刚刚获得硕士学位，耳后湿润，我竟然敢站出来批评一个比我存在更久的东西？
Yeah.
是的。
Watson Jones So my thoughts on that have changed.
沃森琼斯所以我的想法已经改变了。
When Watson looks back at what went wrong at Restoration, there's a mix of things he comes back to.
当沃森回顾复兴运动中出现的问题时，他回想起了一些复杂的事情。
Partly, he thinks, it was him.
他认为，部分原因是他。
He was a guy from Chicago trying to reach native Philadelphians.
他是一个来自芝加哥的人，试图接触费城本地人。
He had a big personality, but the planting process drained a lot of that out of him.
他很有个性，但种植过程却耗尽了他的很多个性。
But the real problem was probably their original premise-- to buck the conventional wisdom and locate in a neighborhood that wasn't gentrifying.
但真正的问题可能是他们最初的前提——打破传统观念，选址在一个没有高档化的社区。
People were already settled, stable.
人们已经安定下来，稳定了。
Now, Watson realizes just how much harder that made things.
现在，沃森意识到这让事情变得多么困难。
His intention was pure, but he didn't understand the difficulty of what he was setting out to do.
他的意图很纯粹，但他不明白自己要做的事情有多困难。
If you want something to grow and be self-sustaining, this was not the place to do it.
如果你想要某种东西成长并自我维持，那么这里不适合你。
And the rest of the church gets that now.
教会的其他成员现在也明白了。
After Watson left, Restoration moved into a new neighborhood, one more in transition.
沃森离开后，恢复队搬进了一个新社区，又是一个处于转型期的社区。
And they bought a building.
他们买了一栋大楼。
They're learning from their mistakes-- or anyway, they hope they are.
他们正在从错误中吸取教训——或者无论如何，他们希望如此。
Eric Mennel-- he tells the story of what happens after AJ takes over the church and moves it to a different area.
埃里克·门内尔（Eric Mennel）——他讲述了 AJ 接管教堂并将其搬到另一个地区后发生的故事。
That is the new season of the podcast StartUp.
这是播客 StartUp 的新一季。
You can find StartUp at Apple Podcasts or gimletmedia.com, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts.
您可以在 Apple Podcasts 或 gimletmedia.com 或任何可以获取播客的地方找到 StartUp。
[MUSIC - "I'M WORKING ON THE BUILDING" BY B.B.
[音乐 - B.B. 的“我在建筑上工作”
KING]
王]
Coming up, another newcomer arrives into a neighborhood.
即将到来，另一个新人来到了一个社区。
But instead of trying to get people to pray, her goal was simpler.
但她的目标更简单，而不是试图让人们祈祷。
She just wants them to drink.
她只是想让他们喝酒。
But attracting sinners can be just as tricky as attracting saints.
但吸引罪人和吸引圣人一样棘手。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme and bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们的节目每周都会选择一个主题，并为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, If You Build It, Will They Come?
今天的节目，如果你建造它，他们会来吗？
Stories of people working and trying their hardest to create something, making mistakes they never thought could be mistakes.
人们努力工作并尽最大努力创造一些东西，犯下他们从未想过会犯的错误的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program-- Act Two, Hole in the Wall.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕——第二幕，墙上的洞。
So one of our coworkers here at the radio show, Neil Drumming, enjoys a drink now and then.
因此，我们广播节目中的一位同事尼尔·鼓明 (Neil Drumming) 时不时地喝一杯。
And since he moved into his neighborhood a few years ago, he has visited just about every bar there, except one.
自从几年前搬进自己的社区以来，他几乎去过那里的每一家酒吧，除了一家。
He has stayed away.
他已经远离了。
He'll explain why.
他会解释原因。
And just a quick heads up here in the podcast that this story has some people in it who do not go to church, and we have un-beeped their ungodly cursing here in the podcast version of the show.
在播客中快速提醒一下，这个故事中有一些人不去教堂，我们在节目的播客版本中取消了他们不敬虔的咒骂。
If you want a beeped version-- maybe you're listening with kids, maybe you were interviewed in the first half of the program-- that version is at our website.
如果你想要一个嘟嘟声版本——也许你正在和孩子们一起听，也许你在节目的前半部分接受采访——这个版本可以在我们的网站上找到。
Here's Neil.
这是尼尔。
Last year, this restaurant in my neighborhood got into a lot of trouble with the locals.
去年，我家附近的这家餐馆给当地人带来了很多麻烦。
Summerhill, the restaurant, sits at the northeast corner of St. Marks and Nostrand Avenue in Crown Heights, a rapidly gentrifying area in Brooklyn.
Summerhill 餐厅位于布鲁克林快速中产阶级化的皇冠高地圣马克斯和诺斯特兰德大道的东北角。
Basically, what happened was, in July of 2017, just after Summerhill opened to the public, the restaurant's owner, a white woman from Canada named Becca Brennan, put out a press release touting a few of her new venture's more unique characteristics-- surf club vibe, massive accordion window, and then, oddly, a quote, "bullet hole-ridden wall."
基本上，发生的事情是，2017 年 7 月，夏山餐厅向公众开放后不久，餐厅老板、一位来自加拿大、名叫贝卡·布伦南 (Becca Brennan) 的白人女性发布了一份新闻稿，宣传她的新企业的一些更独特的特点——冲浪俱乐部的氛围、巨大的手风琴窗户，然后奇怪的是，引用了一句“布满弹孔的墙”。
The release stated, yes, that bullet hole-ridden wall was originally there.
新闻稿称，是的，那面布满弹孔的墙原本就在那里。
And yes, we're keeping it.
是的，我们保留它。
In an interview with the website Gothamist, Brennan suggested that this interior wall, speckled with paint and cracked plaster, was left over from a rumored back-room illegal gun shop.
布伦南在接受 Gothamist 网站采访时表示，这面布满油漆和裂纹灰泥的内墙是传闻中的一家秘密枪支商店留下的。
Brennan also told the reporter that Summerhill would be serving something called 40-ounce wine in paper bags.
布伦南还告诉记者，夏山将提供一种装在纸袋里的 40 盎司葡萄酒。
This kind of thing happens so much in gentrifying Brooklyn that it's hardly notable anymore.
这种事情在布鲁克林的士绅化中屡见不鲜，以至于几乎不再引人注目。
Some trendy eatery, bar, or boutique flower shop will open where there used to be an old record store or a Caribbean takeout joint.
一些时尚的餐馆、酒吧或精品花店将在曾经是一家老唱片店或加勒比外卖店的地方开业。
And the owners will keep the crumbling facade, a faded sign, or a rusty light fixture visible, as if to say, hey, we love what used to be here.
业主们会保留摇摇欲坠的外墙、褪色的标志或生锈的灯具，仿佛在说，嘿，我们喜欢这里以前的样子。
We're not here to change the neighborhood.
我们来这里不是为了改变社区。
We just want to be a part of it.
我们只是想成为其中的一部分。
But in this case, Becca Brennan was indulging a bit of dark urban fantasy.
但在这种情况下，贝卡·布伦南沉迷于一些黑暗的城市幻想。
The holes in the wall in question were not bullet holes, but actually anchor points for one of those big commercial refrigerators you find in any bodega.
墙上的洞不是弹孔，而是你在任何杂货店都能找到的大型商用冰箱之一的锚点。
Summerhill had been completely remodeled from an old corner store that had once stood in that location.
夏山是由曾经位于该地点的一家旧街角商店彻底改造而成的。
Gothamist immediately ran a story about Summerhill's launch that included the interview with Brennan and a quote from a member of the Crown Heights Tenants Union accusing her of profiting from the neighborhood's unfortunate history of violence.
Gothamist 立即刊登了一篇有关夏山推出的报道，其中包括对布伦南的采访，以及皇冠高地租户联盟一名成员的引述，指责她从该社区不幸的暴力历史中获利。
TV news outlets and other websites, like Eater, picked up the story.
电视新闻媒体和其他网站（例如 Eater）报道了这个故事。
And the next thing you know--
接下来你就知道了——
You ain't gonna take some motherfucking pain!
你不会承受一些该死的痛苦！
--there was an angry mob standing outside Summerhill, protesting.
——夏山外站着一群愤怒的暴民，抗议。
You not gonna take our pain and make it a novelty!
你不会把我们的痛苦变成新鲜事！
She said, "You're not going to take our pain and make it a novelty." This is from a video shot by Gothamist in July of last year.
她说：“你不会把我们的痛苦变成新鲜事。”这是 Gothamist 去年 7 月拍摄的一段视频。
There were a lot of different kinds of people in the crowd outside of Summerhill, mostly young, presumably new to the neighborhood, certainly not all black.
夏山外面的人群中有很多不同类型的人，其中大多数是年轻人，大概是这个社区的新人，当然不全是黑人。
But the woman standing on the chair, yelling, is black.
但那个站在椅子上大喊大叫的女人是黑人。
And when she shouts, "You're not going to take our pain and make it a novelty," she's talking about the pain of a predominantly African-American community that has long struggled with gun violence.
当她大喊“你不会承受我们的痛苦并将其变成新鲜事物”时，她谈论的是一个长期与枪支暴力作斗争的以非裔美国人为主的社区的痛苦。
I'd been living in Crown Heights less than a couple of years when this all went down.
当这一切发生时，我在皇冠高地住了不到几年。
But when I moved here, one of the things I noticed were the signs-- the actual signs posted in storefronts near my apartment counting the days since the last shooting incident.
但当我搬到这里时，我注意到的一件事是标牌——我公寓附近店面张贴的实际标牌，计算着上次枪击事件发生后的天数。
Becca Brennan had chosen to make light of an issue that many people in the area took very seriously.
贝卡·布伦南（Becca Brennan）选择淡化该地区许多人非常重视的一个问题。
And when a community meeting was called a month later to discuss it, what she said to the group just made things worse.
当一个月后召开社区会议讨论这个问题时，她对大家说的话让事情变得更糟。
She downplayed how much she'd talked about the bullet holes.
她淡化了自己对弹孔的谈论程度。
People would come in and say, are you keeping that wall?
人们会进来问，你还在保留那堵墙吗？
And I was-- I said yes.
我说是的。
And some people would say, are those bullet holes?
有人会说，那是弹孔吗？
And I never once, to a person, said, yes, those are bullet holes.
我从来没有对一个人说过，是的，那些是弹孔。
They are obviously holes from anchors in the wall.
它们显然是墙上锚的孔。
That's where the soda fridge was when the bodega was up, OK?
杂货店开业时，汽水冰箱就在那里，好吗？
So I'm sorry I have a sense of humor and--
所以我很抱歉我有幽默感而且——
That meeting got pretty heated.
那次会议非常激烈。
Brennan remained defensive and defiant as locals and their elected officials challenged her to apologize for her insensitivity.
当当地人和民选官员要求布伦南为她的麻木不仁道歉时，布伦南仍然保持防御和挑衅态度。
Some predicted that, without her contrition, Summerhill would soon shut down.
有人预测，如果没有她的悔悟，夏山很快就会关闭。
Here's audio from another protest outside the restaurant, calling for just that.
这是餐厅外另一场抗议活动的音频，呼吁这样做。
Bye-bye, Becky.
再见，贝基。
Bye-bye, Becky.
再见，贝基。
Bye-bye, Becky.
再见，贝基。
Becca Brennan didn't want to talk to us for this story.
贝卡·布伦南不想和我们谈论这个故事。
When Summerhill first opened, I had thought about stopping in for a drink a couple of times.
当夏山第一次开业时，我曾好几次想过停下来喝一杯。
But after I heard about the protest and skimmed the articles, staying clear felt like a no-brainer.
但在我听说了抗议活动并浏览了这些文章后，保持清醒感觉是理所当然的。
This conflict had two distinct sides.
这场冲突有两个不同的方面。
And even though I was pretty new to the neighborhood myself, there was no way I was going to align with the 31-year-old white gentrifier who fabricates a memorial to violence out of distressed concrete and an unconventional sense of humor.
尽管我本人对这个社区还很陌生，但我不可能与这位 31 岁的白人中产阶级结盟，他用破旧的混凝土和非传统的幽默感建造了一座暴力纪念碑。
No question, I would stand with my people-- which, in a practical sense, just meant going instead to the bar across the street or the one around the corner.
毫无疑问，我会与我的人民站在一起——从实际意义上讲，这只是意味着去街对面的酒吧或拐角处的酒吧。
I didn't think about Summerhill for months.
我已经好几个月没有想起夏山了。
And then, less than a year later, it was 10 or 11 o'clock on a weekend, and I walked past the place.
然后，不到一年后，周末十点或十一点，我走过那个地方。
It was packed.
它已经挤满了人。
The restaurant sits at an intersection and customers were spilling out onto the corner-- the same corner that had been overwhelmed with pissed-off protesters just last summer.
这家餐厅位于一个十字路口，顾客纷纷涌向角落——去年夏天，这个角落还被愤怒的抗议者淹没。
Now, though, people inside and out seemed happy.
但现在，里里外外的人似乎都很高兴。
They were drinking, partying, and it was really loud.
他们喝酒、聚会，而且非常吵闹。
I remember, because the DJ was playing something from Camp Lo's 1997 cult classic, Uptown Saturday Night.
我记得，因为 DJ 正在播放 Camp Lo 1997 年的经典歌曲《Uptown Saturday Night》中的歌曲。
I love that album.
我喜欢那张专辑。
Oh, yeah, and pretty much everybody in the place was black.
哦，是的，这个地方几乎每个人都是黑人。
I felt like I'd missed the memo.
我感觉我错过了备忘录。
Like, who ordered us to stand down?
比如，谁命令我们停下来？
Not that I'd ever really stood up, but a lot of people had.
并不是说我真的站起来了，但很多人都站起来了。
I was at a bar across the street from Summerhill when I met a really friendly guy named Tashaka, who'd also been avoiding the crowds at Summerhill.
当我在夏山街对面的一家酒吧遇到一个非常友好的人，名叫塔沙卡（Tashaka）时，他也一直避开夏山的人群。
But the reason I don't go in is because, initially, it was because she was-- they were being-- she was being boycotted and I didn't want to cross the line.
但我不进去的原因是，一开始，是因为她——他们——她受到抵制，而我不想越界。
Hm?
嗯？
Neil Drumming You didn't actually protest?
尼尔·击鼓 你实际上并没有抗议吗？
Did I actually protest?
我真的抗议了吗？
Mm, I won't say-- I didn't-- I didn't stand outside.
嗯，我不会说——我没有——我没有站在外面。
Yeah, me neither.
是的，我也一样。
Neil Drumming So why do you think that people started going after all?
Neil Drumming 那么你认为人们到底为什么开始去呢？
Why did black people decide--
为什么黑人决定——
Because-- Neil Drumming --to start going?
因为——尼尔·鼓鸣——要开始？
--we're very forgiving.
——我们非常宽容。
Neil Drumming Say it again?
尼尔·鼓明 你再说一遍？
We're very forgiving.
我们非常宽容。
It's like, you can smack us in the face, and if you say you're sorry and you're not going to do it again, we'll usually accept you.
就像，你可以打我们的脸，如果你说对不起并且你不会再这样做，我们通常会接受你。
You know it's true.
你知道这是真的。
You're smiling, and you're giggling, but you know it's true.
你在微笑，你在咯咯地笑，但你知道这是真的。
For the record, I don't think I was giggling.
根据记录，我不认为我在咯咯笑。
Look, I take Tashaka's point.
听着，我接受塔沙卡的观点。
To put it lightly, African-Americans have been very forgiving about a lot of things over the years.
简单地说，多年来非裔美国人对很多事情都非常宽容。
But that wasn't a very satisfying answer.
但这并不是一个非常令人满意的答案。
I just kind of wanted to know what really happened.
我只是想知道到底发生了什么。
So I walked across the street.
于是我就过马路了。
And what made you come here?
是什么让你来到这里？
Woman 1 We were walking down Nostrand, and we were just trying to find somewhere to have a quick drink.
女人 1 我们沿着诺斯特兰德散步，只是想找个地方喝一杯。
And we just stumbled upon this place and decided to try it.
我们只是偶然发现了这个地方并决定尝试一下。
What are you guys drinking?
你们喝什么？
Woman 1 Oh, rum punch.
女人 1 哦，朗姆潘趣酒。
Some folks hadn't heard anything about the drama from last year.
有些人去年没有听说过这部剧。
You know, I don't even-- I didn't even know that.
你知道，我什至不知道。
I think I'm-- yeah, I didn't know that.
我想我——是的，我不知道这一点。
Some people, like Tara here, had heard about the wall and the alleged bullet holes, and definitely felt some kind of way about it.
有些人，比如这里的塔拉，听说过这堵墙和所谓的弹孔，并且肯定对此有某种感觉。
And to put it on display and not be a person of color, and not have been a person who experienced that day in, day out, that's not your story to tell.
把它展示出来，而不是一个有色人种，而不是一个日复一日经历过的人，这不是你要讲的故事。
That's our story to tell.
这就是我们要讲的故事。
But the wall's been plastered over.
但墙已经抹灰了。
Work from a local artist hangs there now.
现在那里挂着一位当地艺术家的作品。
From Tara's point of view, the slate has been adequately wiped clean.
从塔拉的角度来看，石板已经被彻底擦干净了。
She's there all the time now.
她现在一直都在那里。
Yeah, I feel like things deliberately changed here.
是的，我觉得这里的事情是故意改变的。
I think there's definitely a different vibe here.
我想这里肯定有一种不同的氛围。
I think there's a different culture provided here than that was provided beforehand.
我认为这里提供的文化与之前提供的文化不同。
This is Neil-- another black Neil in Brooklyn.
这是尼尔——布鲁克林的另一个黑人尼尔。
Who knew?
谁知道？
Like, I'll post on Snapchat and I'll have the Summerhill geotag.
比如，我会在 Snapchat 上发帖，然后我就会拥有 Summerhill 地理标签。
And somebody will be like, oh, you go to that racist bar?
有人会说，哦，你去那个种族主义酒吧吗？
That has happened before on my Snapchat.
我的 Snapchat 上以前也发生过这种情况。
He's here nevertheless, undaunted-- in fact, twice in two nights.
尽管如此，他还是无所畏惧地来到了这里——事实上，两个晚上就来了两次。
And the reason he keeps coming back?
他不断回来的原因是什么？
Oyo, who is now part owner-- I knew him from working at another bar.
Oyo，现在是公司的合伙人——我是在另一家酒吧工作时认识他的。
So I knew that he was working here, or had become an owner here.
所以我知道他在这里工作，或者已经成为这里的老板。
So I decided to come here to support him.
所以我决定来这里支持他。
And like that, I had my answer.
就这样，我得到了答案。
I heard this from people inside and out of Summerhill-- staff and bartenders at other bars, regulars and haters.
我从夏山内外的人那里听到了这一点——其他酒吧的工作人员和调酒师、常客和讨厌者。
If you want to know why so many people come to Summerhill, look for Oyo.
如果您想知道为什么这么多人来到夏山，就来看看 Oyo。
Wallahi Oyo-- he mostly goes by just Oyo-- is the executive chef at Summerhill.
Wallahi Oyo（他通常简称为 Oyo）是 Summerhill 餐厅的行政主厨。
He became partial owner of the restaurant shortly after all the controversy began.
所有争议开始后不久，他就成为了餐厅的部分所有者。
He comes up with the menu.
他拿出菜单。
He picks the DJs.
他挑选 DJ。
On a busy Saturday night, you might find him standing out front, scanning Nostrand Avenue from beneath a black baseball cap, presumably looking for more customers.
在一个繁忙的周六晚上，你可能会发现他站在前面，戴着黑色棒球帽，扫视着诺斯特兰德大街，大概是在寻找更多的顾客。
The word was, the embattled Becca Brennan took a diminished role in her own business so that a 27-year-old black man could become the face of Summerhill.
据说，四面楚歌的贝卡·布伦南 (Becca Brennan) 在自己的事业中扮演的角色有所减弱，以便让一名 27 岁的黑人成为夏山的代言人。
It's not like she has no involvement.
她又不是没有参与。
There's a lot of stuff that she still does.
有很多事情她仍然在做。
But I feel like, mostly, when people come here, they see Oyo.
但我觉得，大多数时候，当人们来到这里时，他们看到的是 Oyo。
Oyo's wasn't just a symbolic contribution.
OYO 的贡献不仅仅是象征性的。
I spoke to him in the kitchen that he oversees.
我在他负责的厨房里和他交谈过。
If you ask him what exactly he and Becca did to get black people to come Summerhill after the protests and the bad press, he'll tell you nothing.
如果你问他在抗议和负面新闻之后他和贝卡到底做了什么让黑人来到夏山，他什么也不会告诉你。
He and his partner just weathered the storm, and eventually, people came.
他和他的搭档刚刚度过了难关，最终，人们来了。
But that's not exactly true.
但事实并非如此。
Faced with the storm, Oyo sent up flares.
面对风暴，奥约发射了照明弹。
And I said-- I told my friends, yo, come on.
我说——我告诉我的朋友们，哟，来吧。
I need help.
我需要帮助。
My bar has been protested.
我的酒吧遭到抗议。
I need help.
我需要帮助。
I mean, I need-- you know what I'm saying?
我的意思是，我需要——你知道我在说什么吗？
I need y'all to come support, because I'm drowning.
我需要你们大家的支持，因为我快要淹死了。
And from the look of things, many of them did come.
而且从目前的情况来看，确实有不少人来了。
Maybe you've heard, we're a forgiving people.
也许你听说过，我们是一个宽容的人。
But not all of us.
但不是我们所有人。
She's using his blackness, in a way, to build this business and make it cool again, because of her mistake.
在某种程度上，她利用了他的黑人身份来建立这项业务并使其再次变得酷起来，因为她的错误。
This is Justine Stephens.
这是贾斯汀·斯蒂芬斯。
She and two of her peers organized the first protests against Summerhill after reading about the place on Gothamist last year.
去年，她和她的两个同龄人在 Gothamist 上读到有关夏山的报道后，组织了第一次针对夏山的抗议活动。
She still refuses to step foot inside.
她仍然拒绝踏入里面。
But she has noticed Summerhill becoming increasingly popular with black folks in the last few months.
但她注意到，在过去的几个月里，夏山越来越受黑人欢迎。
She says that's all Oyo remaking the place's image.
她说这就是 Oyo 重塑这个地方形象的原因。
A lot of their online press is kind of fashioned in a way where it's-- it looks hip.
他们的许多在线媒体都以某种方式设计——看起来很时髦。
It looks like a club scene.
看起来就像是俱乐部的场景。
Like, if I take out my phone now and take a look at it-- like Wednesday Night Jump Up, for example.
就像，如果我现在拿出手机看一下——例如周三晚上跳起来。
I don't think Caucasian Becca Brennan from Toronto would say "jump up."
我认为来自多伦多的白人贝卡·布伦南 (Becca Brennan) 不会说“跳起来”。
I mean, wouldn't that be something that is more representative-- that kind of marketing, that kind of branding-- more representative of the community?
我的意思是，这难道不是更具代表性的东西——那种营销，那种品牌——更能代表社区吗？
But is it pandering?
但这是迎合吗？
Neil Drumming I don't know.
尼尔打鼓我不知道。
Is it?
是吗？
I mean, if-- it's kind of like, if they advertise for something, they advertise something that people in the community want, or cleave to, or are excited by, and those people come, and they support it, is that pander--
我的意思是，如果——有点像，如果他们为某样东西做广告，他们为社区中的人们想要的、坚持的或兴奋的东西做广告，而那些人来了，他们支持它，这就是迎合——
No, I think that's totally fair.
不，我认为这是完全公平的。
I think, if it was any other bar that he decided to open up or join forces with, I think that's fair.
我认为，如果他决定开设或联手任何其他酒吧，我认为这是公平的。
But again, the profits are not fully going to him.
但同样，利润并没有全部归他所有。
And he's doing her a big-ass favor by making grits and playing Beyonce.
他还给她做了粗玉米粉，扮演碧昂丝，帮了她一个大忙。
On Instagram, Justine accused Oyo of helping Becca Brennan get the quote unquote, "black dollar." And this annoyed the hell out of Oyo.
在 Instagram 上，贾斯汀指责 Oyo 帮助贝卡·布伦南 (Becca Brennan) 获得了不加引号的“黑美元”。这让 Oyo 非常恼火。
I'm doing this for my pockets, you know what I'm saying?
我这样做是为了我的口袋，你知道我在说什么吗？
This is my business.
这是我的事。
Don't think that I'm doing this for her.
别以为我这么做是为了她。
I don't think she's using me.
我不认为她在利用我。
If anything, I'm using Becca, you know what I'm saying?
如果有的话，我正在使用 Becca，你知道我在说什么吗？
Like, trust me.
就像，相信我。
This is for my pockets.
这是为了我的口袋。
Oyo thinks about his pockets a lot.
Oyo经常考虑他的口袋。
An unapologetic capitalist, Oyo learned from his dad, who owned a nail salon nearby.
奥约是一位毫无悔意的资本家，他的父亲在附近拥有一家美甲沙龙。
Later, Oyo himself ran a DVD shop on the block, and then he worked as a chef at a black-owned bar down the street.
后来，Oyo 自己在该街区经营了一家 DVD 店，然后在街上一家黑人开的酒吧担任厨师。
He said that he loves doing business in Crown Heights, and that people in the neighborhood have been waiting for him to open up his own spot.
他说他喜欢在皇冠高地做生意，附近的人一直在等他开自己的店。
Before the protests happened, Oyo convinced Becca Brennan to let him launch a pop-up sandwich shop inside her fledgling restaurant.
在抗议活动发生之前，Oyo 说服贝卡·布伦南 (Becca Brennan) 让他在她刚刚起步的餐厅内开设一家快闪三明治店。
They were both satisfied with how that went, so they started negotiating for Oyo to accept an ownership stake in the restaurant.
他们都对事情的进展感到满意，因此他们开始与 Oyo 谈判以接受该餐厅的所有权股份。
Then came Justine and the protesters.
然后贾斯汀和抗议者来了。
Oyo took the deal anyway.
无论如何，Oyo 接受了这笔交易。
It was the open door that he'd been waiting for, and there was no way he wasn't going to walk through it, no matter how many people stood outside, jeering.
他一直在等待的就是那扇敞开的门，无论外面有多少人嘲笑他，他都不可能不走进去。
He became partners with Becca.
他与贝卡成为合伙人。
Were you worried?
你担心吗？
Wallahi Oyo No. My confidence in myself was, no, I'm not worried.
Wallahi Oyo 不。我对自己有信心，不，我不担心。
Me, you know, I feel like I'm Oyo.
我，你知道，我觉得我是 Oyo。
I can make it happen.
我可以让它发生。
Even Oyo will admit that Becca Brennan made a mistake.
就连 Oyo 也会承认贝卡·布伦南犯了一个错误。
And for most people, that was the story-- a white woman who offended some people in a historically black neighborhood.
对于大多数人来说，这就是故事——一位白人妇女冒犯了历史悠久的黑人社区中的一些人。
But it's this other, smaller interaction that gets to me more-- two black people, Justine and Oyo, pointing at each other, asking who really belongs here.
但正是这种其他较小的互动更让我感动——两个黑人，贾斯汀和奥约，互相指着对方，问谁真正属于这里。
When Justine saw Oyo defending his mostly silent white partner, she saw a black man who was willing to sell out his community for bread crumbs.
当贾斯汀看到奥约为他最沉默的白人伴侣辩护时，她看到了一个愿意为了面包屑而出卖自己的社区的黑人。
Justine was new to the area, but her father grew up in Brooklyn.
贾斯汀是这个地区的新人，但她的父亲在布鲁克林长大。
She thought that the people in the neighborhood deserved better and that she needed to alert them.
她认为附近的人们应该得到更好的待遇，她需要提醒他们。
Oyo was, in her mind, a puppet.
在她看来，奥约就是一个傀儡。
But when Oyo looked out and saw Justine leading a crowd of mostly white protesters, he didn't see a representative of the community.
但当奥约向外望去，看到贾斯汀带领着一群以白人为主的抗议者时，他没有看到社区代表。
He was from the community.
他来自社区。
He had a tattoo on his arm of the street sign at Bedford and St. Marks, right up the block.
他的手臂上有一个纹身，位于街区内贝德福德和圣马克斯的路牌上。
Justine, who was from Norwalk, Connecticut, had chemically straightened hair, and she was threatening his pockets.
来自康涅狄格州诺沃克的贾斯汀用化学方法拉直了头发，她威胁到了他的口袋。
I had braids.
我有辫子。
I'm not trying to look like no fucking white bitch, I'm telling you.
我告诉你，我并不是想让自己看起来像个他妈的白人婊子。
I'm telling you--
我告诉你——
Justine sent me this recording from that day.
贾斯汀给我发了那天的录音。
It's noisy, but if you tune out the strands of Whitney Houston emanating from inside Summerhill, you can hear a screaming match erupt between Justine and Oyo.
虽然很吵，但如果你把夏山里传来的惠特尼·休斯顿的声音调掉，你就能听到贾斯汀和奥约之间爆发了一场尖叫的比赛。
Get the fuck out of there.
他妈的离开那里。
Wallahi Oyo You grow up black and you straighten your hair?
Wallahi Oyo 你长大后就变黑了，你把头发拉直了吗？
Oyo goes low almost immediately, attacking Justine for relaxing her hair texture to look like a white woman's while fighting for a so-called black cause.
奥约几乎立刻就情绪低落，攻击贾斯汀在为所谓的黑人事业而奋斗的同时，放松了头发的纹理，使其看起来像白人女性的头发。
When Justine says that's what black women do, Oyo replies, "Stupid black women." In the days following this eruption, Justine received even more hateful and disturbing messages via Facebook.
当贾斯汀说这就是黑人女性所做的事情时，奥约回答说：“愚蠢的黑人女性。”在这次火山爆发后的几天里，贾斯汀通过 Facebook 收到了更多仇恨和令人不安的信息。
Can I say all the words?
我可以说出所有的话吗？
Neil Drumming Sure.
尼尔打鼓当然可以。
OK.
好的。
"Go kill yourself, bitch.
“去自杀吧，贱人。
You're a fucking black bitch who wants to be white, but out here protesting about Black Lives Matter.
你是一个他妈的黑人婊子，想成为白人，却在这里抗议“黑人的命也是命”。
You got nothing to do.
你没什么可做的。
Claim you're so pro-black, but have mad white people protesting with you, like they really give a fuck about you.
声称你非常支持黑人，但却让疯狂的白人和你一起抗议，就像他们真的很在乎你一样。
You're really--"
你真是——”
The Facebook messages went on and on.
Facebook 上的消息不断。
They were anonymous, but because the insults were similar to things he'd said to her face, Justine thinks Oyo was responsible.
他们是匿名的，但由于这些侮辱与他当面所说的话相似，贾斯汀认为奥约应对此负责。
I asked him about it.
我问他这件事。
He doesn't deny that the comments could have come from some of his associates trying to support him in the worst way imaginable, but he insists that it wasn't him.
他并不否认这些评论可能来自他的一些同事，他们试图以最糟糕的方式支持他，但他坚称那不是他。
Oyo told me that he mocked Justine's hair because he was raised in a home where relaxers and weaves weren't allowed, where keeping your hair natural was a sign of how pro-black you were.
奥约告诉我，他嘲笑贾斯汀的头发，因为他是在一个不允许直发和编织的家庭长大的，在那里保持头发自然是你有多支持黑人的标志。
But then, it was Oyo's mother who ultimately told them to apologize to Justine, because he shouldn't talk to black women like that.
但后来，奥约的母亲最终让他们向贾斯汀道歉，因为他不应该这样和黑人女性说话。
He did try.
他确实尝试过。
Justine showed me contrite messages he'd sent to her on Instagram.
贾斯汀给我看了他在 Instagram 上发给她的悔恨信息。
But she's no longer interested in opening a dialogue with Oyo or anyone involved with Summerhill.
但她不再有兴趣与 Oyo 或任何与夏山有关的人展开对话。
So what would it take for you to visit that bar?
那么你需要什么才能去那个酒吧呢？
I'm not going to.
我不会。
I'm actually afraid to go in there, because I'm not going to-- again, I don't want to risk my safety.
我实际上害怕进去，因为我不会再一次，我不想拿我的安全冒险。
Have you walked past it?
你走过它吗？
Justine Stephens I walk past it every day.
贾斯汀·斯蒂芬斯 我每天都会经过它。
I have to say, it really bothered me to hear about this seemingly unbridgeable chasm between Justine and Oyo.
我不得不说，听到贾斯汀和奥约之间看似无法逾越的鸿沟，我真的很困扰。
And not just because Justine shouldn't have to fear for her safety in her own neighborhood, and not just because the debate they're essentially having over who is a bigger sellout and who is more authentically black is an ugly, unwinnable contest and more than a little absurd.
这不仅是因为贾斯汀不必担心她在自己社区的安全，也不仅仅是因为他们本质上就谁更出卖、谁更真正的黑人展开的辩论是一场丑陋、无法获胜的竞赛，而且有点荒谬。
But mostly, it upsets me simply because she's 26 and he's 27.
但最重要的是，这让我感到不安，因为她 26 岁，他 27 岁。
They're both young and black, with roots in Brooklyn.
他们都是年轻的黑人，祖籍布鲁克林。
She likes soca.
她喜欢索卡。
His bar blasts soca music well into the night.
他的酒吧一直播放索卡音乐直至深夜。
It just doesn't seem like they should be so far apart.
只是看起来他们不应该分开那么远。
Neil Drumming is one of the producers of our show.
尼尔·鼓明是我们节目的制作人之一。
Act Three, An Awful Place That You're Lucky to Get To.
第三幕，一个你很幸运到达的可怕地方。
OK, so this is something that never really happens.
好吧，所以这是从未真正发生过的事情。
We have a couple minutes left in the show.
演出还剩几分钟。
And I'm glad, because it lets me read you this thing that I like.
我很高兴，因为它让我可以给你读我喜欢的东西。
This is kind of tangentially on theme with If You Build It, They Will Come.
这与《如果你建造它，他们就会来》的主题有点相切。
It's about old age, which, I guess, is a place that is built for us.
这是关于老年的，我想，这是一个为我们建造的地方。
And maybe we get there.
也许我们能到达那里。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Don't think too hard about that.
别想太多。
Donald Hall died a few weeks ago.
唐纳德·霍尔几周前去世了。
He was on the show years back, and I knew him a tiny bit.
他几年前就参加过这个节目，我对他有一点了解。
He was a poet and writer, the poet laureate of the United States for a while.
他是一位诗人和作家，曾一度获得美国桂冠诗人称号。
He wrote about lots of things.
他写了很多事情。
But in the last few years, he's been writing about old age in this utterly unsentimental, lucid way that I really, really love, like in this piece.
但在过去的几年里，他一直在以一种完全不带感情的、清晰的方式来描写老年，我真的非常喜欢这种方式，就像这篇文章一样。
This is from his book, Essays After 80.
这是他的书《80后随笔》中的内容。
"After a life of loving the old, by natural law, I turned old myself.
“在度过了爱老的一生之后，按照自然规律，我自己也变老了。
Decade follows each other.
十年相随。
30 was terrifying.
30 太可怕了。
40, I never noticed because I was drunk.
40、我从来没有注意到，因为我喝醉了。
50 was best, with a total change of life.
50岁是最好的，生活彻底改变。
60 extended the bliss of 50.
60岁延长了50岁的幸福。
Then came my cancers, Jane's death." Jane was his wife.
然后是我的癌症，简的去世。”简是他的妻子。
"And over the years, I traveled to another universe.
“这些年来，我旅行到了另一个宇宙。
However alert we are, however much we think we know what will happen, antiquity remains an unknown, unanticipated galaxy.
无论我们多么警惕，无论我们多么自以为知道会发生什么，古代仍然是一个未知的、意想不到的星系。
It's alien.
这是外星人。
And old people are a separate form of life.
老年人是一种独立的生命形式。
They have green skin, with two heads that sprout antennae.
它们有绿色的皮肤，有两个长着触角的头。
They can be pleasant.
他们可以是令人愉快的。
They can be annoying.
他们可能很烦人。
In the supermarket, those old ladies won't get out of my way.
在超市里，那些老太太不会挡我的路。
Most important, they are permanently other.
最重要的是，他们永远是不同的。
When we turn 80, we understand that we are extraterrestrial.
当我们80岁的时候，我们明白我们是外星人。
If we forget for a moment that we're old, we're reminded when we try to stand up and when we encounter someone young, who appears to observe green skin, extra heads, and protuberances.
如果我们暂时忘记了自己已经老了，当我们试图站起来，或者遇到一个年轻人时，我们就会被提醒，他似乎会观察到绿色的皮肤、多余的头和突起。
People's response to our separateness can be callous, can be good-hearted, and is always condescending.
人们对我们的分离的反应可以是冷酷的，可以是善意的，也可以是居高临下的。
When a woman writes to the newspaper approving of something that I've done, she calls me a nice old gentleman.
当一位女士写信给报纸赞同我所做的事情时，她称我为一位和善的老绅士。
She intends to praise me with 'nice' and 'gentleman.' 'Old' is true enough.
她打算用“好”和“绅士”来称赞我。 “老”是真的。
And she lets us know that I am not a grumpy old fart.
她让我们知道我不是一个脾气暴躁的老家伙。
But 'nice' and 'gentleman' put me in a box where she can rub my head and hear me purr.
但“好”和“绅士”把我放在一个盒子里，她可以在那里摩擦我的头并听到我发出呼噜声。
Or maybe she would prefer me to wag my tail, lick her hand, and make ingratiating dog noises."
或者她可能更喜欢我摇尾巴、舔她的手、发出讨好的狗叫声。”
Anyway, that's by Donald Hall, from his book, Essays After 80.
不管怎样，这是唐纳德·霍尔（Donald Hall）写的，出自他的书《80 后随笔》（Essays After 80）。
He just published another book on the subject with the vivid name, A Carnival of Losses.
他刚刚出版了另一本关于这个主题的书，名字很生动，《损失的嘉年华》。
I recommend both books, or especially his book, Without, which is poetry that he wrote when his wife, Jane Kenyon, died.
我推荐这两本书，特别是他的书《Without》，这是他在妻子简·凯尼恩去世时写的诗。
Anyway, thanks, Donald.
不管怎样，谢谢，唐纳德。
Our program was produced today by Alvin Melathe and Neil Drumming.
今天我们的节目由阿尔文·梅拉西和尼尔·鼓明制作。
People who helped make the show today-- Dana Chivvis, Jarrett Floyd, Damien Graef, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Angelina Mosher, Lulu Miller, Nadia Reiman, Robyn Simeon, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Sharif Youssef, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
帮助制作今天节目的人有：Dana Chivvis、Jarrett Floyd、Damien Graef、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Angelina Mosher、Lulu Miller、Nadia Reiman、Robyn Simeon、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Sharif Youssef、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our managing editor is Susan Burton.
我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿。
Special thanks today to Emma Whitford, Sai Mokhtari, Rebecca Birmingham, Simone Polanen, Sarah Sarahsen, Alex Blumberg, Peter Leonard, Lisa Pollak, and Haley Shaw, who did a lot of the music in our church story today.
今天特别感谢艾玛·惠特福德 (Emma Whitford)、赛·莫赫塔里 (Sai Mokhtari)、丽贝卡·伯明翰 (Rebecca Birmingham)、西蒙·波拉宁 (Simone Polanen)、莎拉·萨拉森 (Sarah Sarahsen)、亚历克斯·布隆伯格 (Alex Blumberg)、彼得·伦纳德 (Peter Leonard)、丽莎·波拉克 (Lisa Pollak) 和海莉·肖 (Haley Shaw)，他们为我们今天的教堂故事创作了很多音乐。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 episodes for absolutely free.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 600 多集档案。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Thanks as always to our program's cofounder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
[致谢] 一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
And now, he is so generous, he agreed to cater and also costar in Shonda Rhimes' new Netflix series about the music business--
现在，他非常慷慨，同意在珊达·莱姆斯 (Shonda Rhimes) 的关于音乐行业的新 Netflix 剧集中提供餐饮服务并与他合演——
Doing her a big-ass favor by making grits and playing Beyonce.
给她做粗玉米粉并扮演碧昂斯，帮了她一个大忙。
I'm Ira glass, back next week with more stores of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira glass），下周将带着更多“This American Life”商店回来。
[MUSIC - "HOLD ON I'M COMING" BY SAM AND DAVE]
[音乐 - SAM 和 DAVE 的“坚持住，我来了”]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。