650: Change You Can Maybe Believe In - This American Life

650：你也许可以相信的改变

650 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #650 | June 29, 2018 650: Change You Can Maybe Believe In Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 650 集 | 2018 年 6 月 29 日 650：你也许可以相信的改变注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

序言来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

Step one, you are currently in the custody of the US department of Homeland Security Customs and Border Protection.

第一步，您目前被美国国土安全部海关和边境保护局拘留。

You have been charged with the crime of illegal entry into the United States.

您被指控犯有非法入境美国罪。

Step two--

第二步——

So Kevin, who is this and what is she reading?

凯文，这是谁？她在读什么？

This is Rachelle Garza.

这是雷切尔·加尔萨。

She's an immigration attorney in Brownsville, Texas and she's reading a flyer that was handed to some parents after they were separated from their children.

她是德克萨斯州布朗斯维尔的一名移民律师，她正在阅读一份传单，该传单是一些父母在与孩子失散后交给他们的。

Kevin Sieff is correspondent for The Washington Post.

凯文·西耶夫是《华盛顿邮报》的记者。

And on the flyer there's a phone number, basically, which is really the only lifeline they have to their children-- the only way they can get information from the government about where their children are, how their children are doing.

传单上有一个电话号码，基本上，这实际上是他们对孩子的唯一生命线——这是他们从政府获取有关孩子在哪里、孩子过得怎么样的信息的唯一途径。

She's trying to locate her client's child.

她正试图找到客户的孩子。

So she represents a man who is detained in an immigration detention center who, basically minutes after crossing the border, was separated from his daughter.

因此，她代表一名被拘留在移民拘留中心的男子，他在越过边境几分钟后就与女儿失散了。

How old is his daughter?

他女儿几岁了？

Kevin Sieff She's 12

凯文·西夫她 12 岁

OK, so let's figure out how we're supposed to do this.

好的，让我们弄清楚我们应该如何做到这一点。

So action one, call ICE.

所以行动一，致电 ICE。

If you're in a detention facility, call this way.

如果您在拘留所，请拨打此电话。

OK, let's call the ORR parent hotline.

好的，我们拨打 ORR 家长热线吧。

So, that's the phone number that you're supposed to call, either as a parent or as an attorney, to try to locate your child.

因此，无论是作为家长还是作为律师，您都应该拨打这个电话号码来尝试找到您的孩子。

I mean, it's really the most-- when you look at this flyer, it's the most useful piece of information on it.

我的意思是，当你看到这张传单时，它确实是最有用的信息。

So yeah, this is the number that Rochelle's about to call.

是的，这就是罗谢尔要拨打的号码。

[PHONE RINGING] Woman [SPEAKING SPANISH]

[电话铃声] 女人 [说西班牙语]

So it starts in Spanish, and then it switches to English.

所以它从西班牙语开始，然后切换到英语。

You have reached the ORR national call center, open 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

您已联系 ORR 全国呼叫中心，该中心每周 7 天、每天 24 小时开放。

If you are calling about a person travelling to the United States who is 18 years of age or older, please press one.

如果您致电询问年满 18 岁或以上前往美国的人士，请按 1。

If you have a case manager's extension, please press two.

如果您有案件经理的分机，请按二。

For all other calls, please press three or remain on the line and you will be connected with a case manager.

对于所有其他电话，请按三键或保持在线状态，您将与案件管理员联系。

Your call will be monitored for quality assurance.

您的通话将受到监控以保证质量。

[MUSIC PLAYING] Ira Glass OK, so there's hold music and there's a phone tree.

[音乐播放] Ira Glass 好的，有等待音乐和电话树。

This all feels very, like-- the most normal thing in the world.

这一切感觉非常、就像——世界上最正常的事情。

Exactly.

确切地。

It's like you're trying to fix your cable.

就像您正在尝试修复电缆一样。

So on this recording you made, an operator picks up after six minutes-- not that long, really.

因此，在您录制的这段录音中，接线员在六分钟后接听——实际上并没有那么长。

Please wait as we connect-- Alan [SPEAKING SPANISH]?

我们正在接通，请稍等——艾伦[说西班牙语]？

OK, how are you doing Alan?

好吧，艾伦你怎么样？

Alan Pretty good.

艾伦不错啊

So, my name is Rochelle Garza.

我的名字是罗谢尔·加尔萨。

I'm an attorney.

我是一名律师。

OK.

好的。

Rochelle Garza I'm looking for my client's daughter.

罗谢尔·加尔萨（Rochelle Garza）我正在寻找我客户的女儿。

I called last week, on the 11th of June, and I was told that I would be contacted by the shelter.

我上周 6 月 11 日打电话，被告知庇护所会联系我。

The shelter?

避难所？

Rochelle Garza Yeah.

罗谢尔·加尔萨是的。

And I haven't been contacted, and neither has my client.

我还没有联系过，我的客户也没有联系过。

So she gives the name of this girl to the operator and he looks her up and finds her in the system.

于是她把这个女孩的名字告诉了接线员，接线员在系统中查找了她并找到了她。

What I can do is to try to do-- try to send the shelter inquiry again.

我能做的就是尝试再次发送庇护所询问。

I mean, because they usually do contact.

我的意思是，因为他们通常会联系。

But right now, with the high volume of minors that are entering the United States, it's a little complicated for them.

但目前，随着大量未成年人进入美国，这对他们来说有点复杂。

Hey Kevin, when he says the high volume of minors entering the United States, is that what's happening?

嘿，凯文，当他说大量未成年人进入美国时，这就是正在发生的事情吗？

No. I mean, there is no surge of minors crossing the border.

不，我的意思是，没有出现大量未成年人越境的现象。

In fact, there are fewer people crossing the border than almost any time in the last decade.

事实上，跨越边境的人数几乎比过去十年中的任何时候都要少。

What there's a surge of is a surge of families being separated, and that's what's changed.

家庭离散的激增，这就是变化。

And that's why he's getting so many calls.

这就是为什么他接到这么多电话。

Right.

正确的。

There are children and parents who can't find each other.

有的孩子和家长找不到彼此。

Maybe there's a better way for us to do this.

也许我们有更好的方法来做到这一点。

Can I send a letter to you or to the shelter somehow, saying that I'm representing her father?

我可以写封信给你或收容所，说我代表她父亲吗？

That way I can at least confirm, you know, where she is and so I can go ahead and start working on her case.

这样我至少可以确认她在哪里，这样我就可以继续处理她的案子。

OK.

好的。

For that-- so basically, we don't release that information of the shelter.

为此，基本上，我们不会发布庇护所的信息。

We can't release that information to the public.

我们不能向公众发布该信息。

We don't release the information saying what shelter she's in, is what he's saying, right?

我们不会公布她在哪个避难所的信息，他是这么说的，对吗？

Right.

正确的。

Alan Due to safety concerns, safety purposes.

Alan 出于安全考虑，安全为目的。

But I mean, I can type out a little bit of, like, whatever you want to tell them, tell the shelter, and I can make sure they get the message if that'll work for you.

但我的意思是，我可以输入一些内容，比如，无论你想告诉他们什么，告诉庇护所，如果这对你有用，我可以确保他们收到信息。

Yeah, no. I guess I'm just trying to figure out a way that I can explain that I'm an attorney and that I'm the attorney assisting the parent.

是的，不。我想我只是想找到一种方法来解释我是一名律师并且我是协助家长的律师。

And the parent has asked me to locate the child.

家长让我找到孩子。

So that way, I can speak with her.

这样我就可以和她说话了。

Is there any email address that I can maybe send a letter of representation to?

我可以向哪个电子邮件地址发送代表信吗？

Even if it's to someone at your office.

即使是给你办公室的某个人。

Give me one second.

给我一秒钟。

Kevin Sieff I think that's one of the fundamental problems here, is that they're making it really hard for her to establish that she is, in fact, representing a child.

凯文·西夫（Kevin Sieff）：我认为这是这里的根本问题之一，他们让她很难确定她实际上代表的是一个孩子。

And is the parent in the detention center?

家长在看守所吗？

Yes.

是的。

I think you can probably see that in your system, right?

我想你可能可以在你的系统中看到这一点，对吧？

Do you want me to-- Alan I was just asking so that--

你想让我——艾伦，我只是想——

Huh?

啊？

Rochelle Garza Do you want me to confirm the dad's name?

罗谢尔·加尔萨（Rochelle Garza）你需要我确认一下父亲的名字吗？

I can give that to you.

我可以给你。

No, it's OK.

不，没关系。

No, I only have the information for the minors.

不，我只有未成年人的信息。

I don't have the-- for the adults.

我没有给成年人的。

I mean, I can't go to the ICE locator and find them, but--

我的意思是，我无法通过 ICE 定位器找到它们，但是——

This surprised me.

这让我很惊讶。

Is he saying that his database lists the child and where the child is, but doesn't have the parent's name attached to that?

他是说他的数据库列出了孩子以及孩子所在的位置，但没有附上父母的姓名吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, he's telling Rochelle that he has no record of even that parent's name, let alone where that parent's located.

我的意思是，他告诉罗谢尔，他甚至没有该父母的名字的记录，更不用说该父母所在的位置了。

I mean, and this, I think, is the biggest concern that lawyers have right now is, is there even a record in a government database of which child belongs to which parent?

我的意思是，我认为律师现在最关心的是，政府数据库中是否有哪个孩子属于哪个父母的记录？

We don't know the answer to that question.

我们不知道这个问题的答案。

But there are a lot of reasons, including this exchange, that would make us think that they don't.

但有很多原因，包括这次交流，让我们认为他们不这么认为。

They don't know.

他们不知道。

So again, so in the recording, he then heads off to try to answer her question about how can she get through to the daughter.

再次，在录音中，他然后试图回答她的问题，即她如何与女儿取得联系。

OK, I mean, just give me one second so I can speak to my supervisor about this.

好的，我的意思是，请给我一点时间，以便我可以与我的主管讨论此事。

Let me ask what else I can do for you.

让我问一下我还能为您做些什么。

Do you mind holding on-- Rochelle Garza I do not mind.

你介意坚持下去吗——罗谢尔·加尔萨（Rochelle Garza）我不介意。

[MUSIC PLAYING] Ira Glass Kevin, so on his computer screen he actually has the information that she wants, of where this girl is?

[音乐播放] Ira Glass Kevin，所以在他的电脑屏幕上，他实际上有她想要的信息，这个女孩在哪里？

Yeah, that's basically what he's saying, that he has it.

是的，这基本上就是他所说的，他拥有它。

He knows where she is, but he can't give it to her.

他知道她在哪里，但他不能告诉她。

Now eventually, as this call goes on, the guy gives her an email address.

最终，随着电话的继续，那家伙给了她一个电子邮件地址。

But then it's just the same email address that's on the form that she has, right?

但这和她表格上的电子邮件地址是一样的，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, and I mean, I kind of saw her just entirely deflated after he gave that address.

是的，我的意思是，在他说出那个地址后，我看到她完全泄气了。

Right, so having had it, how do you feel about that call?

是的，那么接到电话后，您对这个电话感觉如何？

I mean, they're not really trying to help.

我的意思是，他们并不是真的想帮忙。

Yeah.

是的。

Sorry, it's rough.

抱歉，这很粗糙。

I just don't know how we're going to track down these kids.

我只是不知道我们要如何找到这些孩子。

That's not helpful.

那没有帮助。

I mean, I can still go through the motions of sending an email to that email address, but I just don't have any faith that it's going to go anywhere.

我的意思是，我仍然可以通过向该电子邮件地址发送电子邮件的动作，但我只是不相信它会发送到任何地方。

Sorry, I'm getting emotional.

抱歉，我情绪激动了。

But it's very frustrating.

但这非常令人沮丧。

And I can only imagine what's going on on her end.

我只能想象她那边发生了什么。

Ira Glass OK, so that was a week ago.

Ira Glass 好吧，那是一周前的事了。

What's happened since?

从那以后发生了什么？

So, Rochelle reached out to one of the legal service providers who work with children who are detained after crossing the border.

因此，罗谢尔联系了一位为跨境后被拘留的儿童提供服务的法律服务提供商。

And these are organizations that represent children through their deportation proceedings, through their asylum hearings.

这些组织在驱逐程序和庇护听证会上代表儿童。

And these organizations keep track of the kids that they're working with.

这些组织会跟踪与他们一起工作的孩子。

They each have a list of the kids.

他们每个人都有一份孩子名单。

And Rochelle kind of got lucky, and the person she reached out to did actually have a record of this girl and was able to tell Rochelle where the girl was being held.

罗谢尔有点幸运，她联系的人确实有这个女孩的记录，并且能够告诉罗谢尔这个女孩被关押在哪里。

She found the shelter, yeah.

她找到了避难所，是的。

So then the next step was for her to get to the shelter to try to set up basically an appointment.

所以下一步是她去避难所尝试基本上进行预约。

So on Thursday afternoon, she drove to the shelter.

于是周四下午，她开车去了避难所。

And she walked in and there the girl was.

她走进去，那个女孩就在那里。

I talked to her right afterwards.

我后来就和她谈过。

She looked like her dad, so I recognized her right away.

她长得很像她爸爸，所以我立刻就认出了她。

I felt-- I felt really emotional about it actually, when I saw her, just because I could see her dad's face in her face.

当我看到她时，我真的感到非常激动，因为我可以在她的脸上看到她父亲的脸。

I had to-- obviously, any time you go and you introduce yourself to a child, like they don't know who you are.

显然，每次你去向孩子介绍自己时，我都必须这样做，就像他们不知道你是谁一样。

I obviously explained my relationship to her dad and to her and that I've been looking for her.

我显然向她父亲和她解释了我的关系，并且我一直在寻找她。

And her eyes turned really red when I mentioned her dad.

当我提到她爸爸时，她的眼睛变得非常红。

And I asked her if she wanted to write him a letter and she was like, yes.

我问她是否想给他写封信，她说是的。

And so she frantically wrote this letter, and I gave her the time to do that.

于是她疯狂地写了这封信，我给了她时间。

And so this girl, she's 12 years old.

这个女孩今年 12 岁。

What did Rochelle say?

罗谢尔说了什么？

Is she doing OK?

她还好吗？

Yeah, the girl's doing OK.

是的，那个女孩做得很好。

Rochelle said she looks healthy.

罗谢尔说她看起来很健康。

She's wearing a uniform given to her, a sort of polo shirt given to her by the shelter.

她穿着收容所给她的制服，一种马球衫。

And she was wearing a bunch of friendship bracelets that I guess she's learned to make there.

她戴着一串友谊手镯，我猜她是在那里学会制作的。

And then Rochelle had to do this thing, which is explain that this girl probably is not going to see her dad any time soon, and she might not even talk to him any time soon.

然后罗谢尔必须做这件事，这说明这个女孩可能不会很快见到她的爸爸，她甚至可能不会很快和他说话。

The way you explain it is, like, you kind of have to explain what's going on in the national realm, right?

你解释的方式就像，你必须解释国家领域正在发生的事情，对吧？

You have to say there was this executive order and there was this decision out of the courts, and put it in that kind of context so that-- I mean the thing is, I don't have an answer for her, Kevin.

你必须说有这个行政命令，有这个法庭决定，并将其放在这样的背景下，这样——我的意思是，我没有给她答案，凯文。

Like, I can't tell her, you're for sure going to get a phone call this day.

就像，我不能告诉她，你今天肯定会接到电话。

You're for sure going to be reunited with him on this day.

这一天，你一定会和他重逢的。

All I can say is, I don't know.

我只能说，我不知道。

Kevin, I thought the policy had changed.

凯文，我以为政策已经改变了。

Like, the president announced that we are no longer separating families from children.

比如，总统宣布我们不再将家庭与儿童分开。

And in fact, the government announced that they had reunited over 500 children.

事实上，政府宣布他们已经使 500 多名儿童团聚。

Yeah, I mean, the government has made these announcements about their plans to reunify families.

是的，我的意思是，政府已经宣布了有关家庭团聚计划的公告。

But when you talk to the lawyers who are representing the parents, nothing has changed at all.

但当你与代表父母的律师交谈时，一切都没有改变。

And in many cases, not only are the families not reunified, but these lawyers still can't figure out where the children are being held.

在很多情况下，不仅家庭没有团聚，而且这些律师仍然无法弄清楚孩子们被关押在哪里。

And what do we know about the 500-plus kids who the government says they reunited?

对于政府称已团聚的 500 多名孩子，我们了解多少？

I mean, the government has said that they've reunited these families.

我的意思是，政府已经说过他们已经让这些家庭团聚了。

When I talk to lawyers who are representing hundreds of parents-- I mean, there's one organization that's representing 376, another that's representing I think over 400 now.

当我与代表数百名家长的律师交谈时，我的意思是，有一个组织代表 376 名家长，另一个组织代表我认为现在超过 400 名家长。

I haven't heard of a single-- at least as of a few days ago, I haven't heard of a single reunification.

我没有听说过任何一个——至少在几天前，我还没有听说过一个统一。

So I mean, I think in the absence of concrete information about who these families were, how they were reunified, lawyers are really wondering if these kids were among the 2,300 who were separated from their parents.

所以我的意思是，我认为在缺乏关于这些家庭是谁、他们如何团聚的具体信息的情况下，律师们真的想知道这些孩子是否是与父母离散的 2,300 人中的一员。

If maybe they were from a different pool of children.

如果他们来自不同的孩子群就好了。

It's possible that the government numbers are accurate, but there are just so many questions about them, because there's really no documentation that goes along with it.

政府的数字可能是准确的，但关于它们的问题太多了，因为实际上没有任何相关文件。

Ira Glass We reached out to the Department of Homeland Security for clarification about all of this, and a spokesperson told us that the 539 children they've said were reunited with parents were all apprehended since May, as part of the administration's zero tolerance policy, and they all were in border patrol custody before being returned to their families.

我们联系了国土安全部，要求澄清这一切，一位发言人告诉我们，作为政府零容忍政策的一部分，他们所说的与父母团聚的 539 名儿童自 5 月以来全部被逮捕，他们在被送回家人身边之前都被边境巡逻队拘留。

Presumably, being in border patrol custody means they were only in the country a short time and had never been transferred to other agencies, shelters, and foster homes.

据推测，被边境巡逻队拘留意味着他们只在该国停留了很短的时间，并且从未被转移到其他机构、庇护所和寄养家庭。

The spokesperson declined to provide any names of these families or any information about what countries they were from.

该发言人拒绝提供这些家庭的任何姓名或有关他们来自哪个国家的任何信息。

But this kind of situation where somebody-- in this case, the President of the United States-- declares that he's changed-- it's all different, he's moving on, no longer separating kids from their parents, but the result is not so clear.

但在这种情况下，有人——在这个例子中，是美国总统——宣布他已经改变了——一切都不同了，他正在继续前进，不再将孩子与父母分开，但结果并不那么明显。

That situation, that is what our show is about today.

这种情况，就是我们今天节目要讲的内容。

Something happens, maybe you'd like to believe it's true, but you don't know if you should.

有些事发生了，也许你愿意相信这是真的，但你不知道是否应该相信。

We have a bunch of different stories that do not involve the current administration, or any previous ones.

我们有很多不同的故事，不涉及现任政府或任何以前的政府。

One of the stories, in fact, takes us into a noisy world of half-clad soap opera stars and daytime TV hosts, none of whom I bet you have ever heard of.

事实上，其中一个故事将我们带入了一个由半裸的肥皂剧明星和日间电视主持人组成的喧闹世界，我敢打赌你肯定没有听说过他们。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One: The All-Too-Real Housewives of Argentina Ira Glass Act One, The All Too Real Housewives of Argentina.

第一幕：阿根廷太真实的家庭主妇艾拉·格拉斯第一幕，阿根廷太真实的家庭主妇。

There's an old saying, don't believe everything you see.

有句老话说，不要相信你所看到的一切。

But there's a corollary, of course-- don't believe everything you see on TV, especially daytime TV.

当然，还有一个推论——不要相信你在电视上看到的一切，尤其是白天的电视。

And it doesn't matter what country you're in.

你在哪个国家并不重要。

Jasmine Garsd grew up in Argentina and has this story.

Jasmine Garsd 在阿根廷长大，有这样一个故事。

Quick warning before we start-- the stories in today's show have some curse words that we have un-beeped here in the podcast version of the show.

在我们开始之前先警告一下——今天节目中的故事有一些脏话，我们在节目的播客版本中没有发出这些脏话。

If you want a version with beeps, maybe you're listening with kids, go to our website.

如果您想要带有蜂鸣声的版本，也许您正在和孩子们一起听，请访问我们的网站。

And here's Jasmine.

这是茉莉花。

I watched a lot of television when I was a kid.

我小时候看了很多电视。

My grandmother, Iaia, would pick me up at school and bring me back to her place.

我的祖母 Iaia 会去学校接我，然后带我回到她的住处。

Her apartment was dark and humid.

她的公寓又暗又潮湿。

It smelled like French bread and the exhaust from the buses on the avenue down below.

闻起来像法式面包和楼下大道上公共汽车排出的废气。

My grandfather was never around.

我的祖父从来不在身边。

Iaia would make tea and then we would go to her bedroom and turn the TV on.

Iaia 会泡茶，然后我们去她的卧室打开电视。

And suddenly, colors, sound, and sex would pour into the world.

突然之间，色彩、声音和性涌入了世界。

It was the early afternoon.

那是下午早些时候。

It was time for the talk shows.

又到了脱口秀节目的时间了。

Argentine talk shows are extreme, even for Latin American television.

阿根廷的脱口秀节目很极端，即使对于拉丁美洲的电视也是如此。

The women are pumped up with silicone and Botox, and sometimes show up wearing almost nothing.

这些女性都注射了硅胶和肉毒杆菌，有时几乎什么也没穿。

The conversation is not just double entendres, but straight up entendres, full-on vulgar language.

谈话不只是双关语，而是直白的、完全粗俗的语言。

When I was growing up, it was a parade of pasties, stilettos, feather boas.

在我的成长过程中，人们总是穿着馅饼、细高跟鞋、羽毛围巾。

One of the most popular shows back then was hosted by a guy named Jorge Rial.

当时最受欢迎的节目之一是由一位名叫豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial）的人主持的。

He's still on TV.

他还在电视上。

He's kind of the Argentine everyman-- charming and a little bit of a hustler.

他有点像阿根廷的普通人——很有魅力，而且有点骗子。

These days, his TV show is called Intrusos, or Intruders.

如今，他的电视节目被称为“Intrusos”或“入侵者”。

It takes place on a set that is just seizure inducing-- neon colors, walls lined with giant video screens.

它发生在一个令人癫痫发作的场景中——霓虹灯的颜色，墙壁上排列着巨大的视频屏幕。

Jorge Rial likes to stir up fights among his voluptuous guests.

豪尔赫·里亚尔喜欢在他的性感客人中挑起争斗。

Every time something shocking is said, ominous music rolls out.

每当说出令人震惊的事情时，就会响起不祥的音乐。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] [OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING]

[说西班牙语] [播放不祥的音乐]

Jasmine Garsd Once in a while, a woman is so sexy that Jorge Rial bites his lower lip and mugs for the camera.

Jasmine Garsd 偶尔，某个女人会性感得让豪尔赫·里亚尔 (Jorge Rial) 咬着下唇，在镜头前摆出一副表情。

This has been Rial's style for years.

多年来，这一直是 Rial 的风格。

Back in the day, Iaia would bring the tea and cookies and lie down next to me in her patent leather platform shoes, which she never took off, not even in bed.

以前，Iaia 会端上茶和饼干，穿着她的漆皮厚底鞋躺在我旁边，她从来不脱掉鞋子，甚至在床上也不脱。

My grandmother was the target audience for Rial's show, what's commonly known as "doña rosa," a housewife.

我的祖母是 Rial 节目的目标观众，也就是俗称的“doña rosa”，一位家庭主妇。

She loved to hate the show, to look disapprovingly at the women and comment how much surgery she's had.

她喜欢讨厌这个节目，不满地看着那些女人，并评论她做了多少次手术。

"Una prostituta," a prostitute.

“Una prostituta”，妓女。

"una loca." And they give her expensive gifts-- cars, vacations.

“不知道。”他们给了她昂贵的礼物——汽车、假期。

And I'd look around me my grandmother's lonely apartment and think to myself, wow.

我环顾四周，祖母孤独的公寓，心想，哇。

That sounds pretty amazing.

听起来很神奇。

I knew I didn't want to be a doña rosa when I grew up.

我知道我长大后不想成为一名玫瑰夫人。

When I was a teenager, I moved to the US and eventually became a journalist.

当我十几岁的时候，我搬到了美国，最终成为了一名记者。

I've lived here for 15 years.

我在这里住了15年了。

Sometimes when I get homesick, I stream Intrusos on YouTube.

有时当我想家时，我会在 YouTube 上观看 Intrusos。

I leave it on when I cook and clean.

我做饭和打扫卫生时都会把它打开。

When I watch it, I'm not 5,000 miles away.

当我看着它时，我并不在5000英里之外。

Iaia is alive, nothing has changed much.

Iaia还活着，没有什么太大改变。

Nothing ever changes on Argentine daytime TV.

阿根廷日间电视节目没有任何变化。

Until suddenly, a few months ago, it did.

直到几个月前突然，它发生了。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd One night in February, I was at home in New York cleaning my kitchen.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 二月的一个晚上，我在纽约的家里打扫厨房。

Intrusos was on in the background and I heard this woman with a raspy Lauren Bacall voice.

Intrusos 在后台播放，我听到这个女人的声音沙哑，劳伦·白考尔 (Lauren Bacall)。

I turned around, soapy sponge in hand, and squinted at the screen-- a tattooed, heavyset woman wearing sneakers.

我转过身来，手里拿着肥皂海绵，眯着眼睛看着屏幕——一个纹身的、身材魁梧的女人，穿着运动鞋。

I recognized this woman, a comedian named Senorita Bimbo.

我认出了这个女人，一位名叫宾博小姐的喜剧演员。

The stage name, Bimbo, is ironic.

艺名“Bimbo”颇具讽刺意味。

She's anything but.

她绝对不是。

In fact, the very next thing she did was look directly into the camera and offer a statistic about illegal abortions.

事实上，她做的下一件事就是直视镜头并提供有关非法堕胎的统计数据。

"500,000 women in Argentina have illegal abortions every year," she said.

“阿根廷每年有 50 万名妇女非法堕胎，”她说。

She was wearing a bright green handkerchief around her neck, a provocative symbol everyone in Argentina knows-- the symbol of the fight to legalize abortion.

她脖子上挂着一条亮绿色的手帕，这是阿根廷每个人都知道的挑衅性象征——堕胎合法化斗争的象征。

For years, activists have been pushing to get Congress to vote on it.

多年来，活动人士一直在推动国会对此进行投票。

When I was growing up, abortion was something you just didn't talk about in Argentina, a Catholic country.

在我成长的过程中，在天主教国家阿根廷，堕胎是你不会谈论的事情。

It's still not something that comes up on daytime TV.

这仍然不是白天电视上出现的事情。

Reproductive rights?

生育权？

That's just not Intrusos material.

那不是 Intrusos 材料。

Though here was Jorge Rial, the host, looking intently at Senorita Bimbo.

尽管这里是主持人豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial），他正专注地看着宾博小姐。

A few hours later, one of my best friends texted me, "Did you watch Intrusos today?" I sat down at my laptop and started scrolling through the descriptions of the last few episodes.

几个小时后，我最好的朋友之一发短信给我，“你今天看《Intrusos》了吗？”我坐在笔记本电脑前，开始滚动浏览最后几集的描述。

The guests were names I knew-- academics, writers, comedians.

客人都是我认识的人——学者、作家、喜剧演员。

What they had in common was, they were all feminists, people who have been on the fringes for years, criticizing sexism in Argentina and demanding women's rights.

她们的共同点是，她们都是女权主义者，多年来一直处于边缘，批评阿根廷的性别歧视并要求妇女权利。

I started binge watching.

我开始狂看。

In each episode, there was a nuanced conversation about feminism.

每集都有关于女权主义的细致入微的对话。

Rial looked kind of meek, but not in his usual, "I've been overpowered by sexy ladies" way.

里亚尔看起来有点温顺，但不是他一贯的“我已经被性感女士压倒了”的方式。

He kept delivering these really impassioned monologues saying, I don't want to be a misogynist, a "machista." I'm a recovering machista.

他不断地发表这些充满激情的独白，说，我不想成为一个厌恶女性的人，一个“大男子主义者”。我是一个正在康复的男子气概。

The Argentine everyman now appeared to be an earnest feminist.

这位阿根廷普通人现在似乎是一位真诚的女权主义者。

This was not the Rial I grew up with.

这不是我从小一起长大的里亚尔。

This was not the TV I grew up with.

这不是我从小一起长大的电视。

What happened?

发生了什么？

Could this possibly be sincere?

这可能是真诚的吗？

I flew to Argentina to find out.

我飞往阿根廷去寻找答案。

As soon as I got there, I went to the studios where Intrusos is taped.

我一到那里，就去了 Intrusos 的录音室。

I met Ana Laura Guevara, one of the show's executive producers.

我遇到了安娜·劳拉·格瓦拉，该剧的执行制片人之一。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Being live involves a lot of adrenalin.

[说西班牙语] 口译员现场表演需要大量的肾上腺素。

I really, really love the adrenalin.

我真的非常喜欢肾上腺素。

To be honest, I wasn't expecting an Intrusos executive producer to be a woman, especially not one like Ana Laura, a self-proclaimed feminist.

老实说，我没想到 Intrusos 的执行制片人会是一名女性，尤其是像安娜·劳拉这样自称女权主义者的人。

I had a really hard time wrapping my head around the fact that, for 18 years, she had been behind this totally trashy and objectifying show.

我真的很难接受这样一个事实：十八年来，她一直在幕后策划这个完全垃圾和物化的节目。

Ana Laura told me, it's just a job, one she's good at.

安娜·劳拉告诉我，这只是一份工作，是她擅长的工作。

It's intensely competitive.

竞争非常激烈。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Woman [SPEAKING SPANISH]

[说西班牙语] 女人 [说西班牙语]

[SPEAKING SPANISH] In the control room, her face shines from the light of the monitor she's hunched over, like in a casino-- a monitor that, minute by minute, tracks the ratings for Intrusos and every other show that's on the air at the same time.

[说西班牙语] 在控制室里，她弓着背，在显示器的灯光下，她的脸闪闪发亮，就像在赌场里一样——显示器每分钟都在跟踪 Intrusos 和同时播出的所有其他节目的收视率。

I had no idea this was possible.

我不知道这是可能的。

Right now on Intrusos, there's a fight between a former cabaret dancer and a potential candidate for president.

现在，在 Intrusos 上，一位前歌舞表演者和一位潜在的总统候选人之间正在展开一场斗争。

This, like, skyrocketed.

这就像飙升一样。

The ratings are going up with this segment.

该部分的收视率正在上升。

It's like four points-- it went from 4.0 to 4.6.

好像是四分——从 4.0 到 4.6。

This is doing better than the news.

这比新闻报道的效果还要好。

Next segment, a fashion model from the '80s says she has her suspicions about a designer's recent death.

在下一个片段中，一位 80 年代的时装模特表示，她对一位设计师最近的去世表示怀疑。

It dipped to 3.4.

跌至3.4。

The ratings plummet.

收视率直线下降。

Nobody cares.

没人关心。

Ana Laura orders them to end the segment early.

安娜·劳拉命令他们提前结束该片段。

Interest lags for an instant, and Intrusos moves on.

兴趣暂时滞后，Intrusos 继续前进。

The story of how the feminists intruded into Intrusos is its own soap opera.

女权主义者如何闯入 Intrusos 的故事就像肥皂剧一样。

There are a gazillion gossip shows in Argentina.

阿根廷有无数的八卦节目。

It's like this whole universe.

这就像整个宇宙。

Back in January, one of the shows interviewed this famous singer, a leathery guy in a tropical shirt.

早在一月份，其中一个节目采访了这位著名歌手，一个穿着热带衬衫、皮肤黝黑的家伙。

In the middle of the interview, the singer casually repeats this awful saying I used to hear as a kid-- if someone wants to rape you, relax and enjoy it.

在采访的中间，这位歌手漫不经心地重复了我小时候经常听到的这句可怕的话——如果有人想强奸你，放松并享受它。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd The first time I heard that was when I was nine years old.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 我第一次听到这个说法是在我九岁的时候。

I was in the locker room and a girl blurted it out.

I thought it was advice.

我以为这是建议。

A lot of my friends did, too.

我的很多朋友也这么做了。

So the singer says this offensive thing.

A few days later, on another talk show, a soap opera star blows up about it.

Her name is Araceli Gonzales.

When I was a kid, her soap opera was huge.

She played a mute.

她扮演哑巴。

A hunk with feathered hair would talk at her while she listened tearfully.

But now she wasn't mute.

但现在她不再沉默了。

She said the singer's remark made her sick.

她说这位歌手的言论让她感到恶心。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd It was kind of beautiful seeing her get angry after so many years of playing a character literally defined by silence.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 在扮演了一个字面上由沉默定义的角色这么多年之后，看到她生气真是太好了。

Ana Laura, from Intrusos, saw the fight happening on TV and she wanted to get a piece of it.

来自 Intrusos 的安娜·劳拉 (Ana Laura) 在电视上看到了这场打斗，她想从中分一杯羹。

She booked Araceli to come on the show.

她预订了阿拉切利参加节目。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] It was a typical day on Intrusos.

Jorge Rial talked about how much granny panties used to turn him on as a kid.

Two former showgirls argued.

两名前歌舞女郎发生争执。

And then it was Araceli's turn.

然后轮到阿拉塞利了。

And just because Araceli had gotten mad about the rape comment, one of the panelists introduces her as a feminist.

As soon as Araceli got a chance, she corrected him.

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd She says, "I heard you refer to me as a feminist just now, and I am not a feminist." She is vehemently wagging her finger as she says this.

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd "I have a wonderful husband and a lovely son whom I love very much, and I respect men." This set off another firestorm.

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd "I have a wonderful husband and a lovely son whom I love very much, and I respect men."这又掀起了一场轩然大波。

Here's Ana Laura.

这是安娜·劳拉。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter So people started tweeting about it.

[说西班牙语] 翻译所以人们开始发推文谈论这件事。

And we saw that feminists started to respond.

我们看到女权主义者开始做出回应。

So everything exploded.

于是一切都爆发了。

There were the kinds of tweets you would expect like, quote, "What the fuck does loving your husband and son have to do with being a feminist, you moron?" And here it was, feminists versus the soap opera star, a fight made for daytime television.

你可能会看到这样的推文，比如“爱你的丈夫和儿子和女权主义者有什么关系，你这个白痴？” And here it was, feminists versus the soap opera star, a fight made for daytime television.

And Ana Laura knew it.

安娜·劳拉知道这一点。

And she also knew Jorge Rial, the host of the show-- something had been changing with him lately.

Like, he'd been saying to anyone who would listen--

就像，他一直在对任何愿意听的人说——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I am a machista in recovery.

[说西班牙语] 口译员我是一名正在康复中的男子气概。

I'm trying to find myself.

我正在努力寻找自己。

So she approached him in the dressing room and they started talking.

于是她在更衣室里走向他，他们开始交谈。

Maybe we should have a feminist on the show to explain what feminism is.

也许我们应该在节目中请一位女权主义者来解释什么是女权主义。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter We hadn't discussed that beforehand.

But this day on the dressing room, I think that he was really into it.

但今天在更衣室里，我认为他真的很投入。

They decided on a well-known feminist academic, Flor Freijo.

他们选择了一位著名的女权主义学者弗洛·弗雷霍（Flor Freijo）。

And even she'll tell you she's a safe bet for a show like Intrusos.

She's thin and blonde.

她很瘦，金发碧眼。

So Flor gets invited to Intrusos and the very first question Jorge Rial asks her is, what is feminism?

因此弗洛尔被邀请参加 Intrusos，豪尔赫·里亚尔问她的第一个问题是，什么是女权主义？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Flor Freijo [SPEAKING SPANISH]

[讲西班牙语] Flor Freijo [讲西班牙语]

I didn't prepare anything.

我什么都没准备。

I didn't prepare a speech.

我没有准备演讲。

I didn't have time.

我没有时间。

So I went open to listen to the questions and explain things just as I do to my students in a class.

所以我敞开心扉倾听问题并解释事情，就像我在课堂上对学生所做的那样。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd Of all the strange things I'd seen on Argentine TV, this might be one of the oddest.

Against a neon fizz background, Flor Freijo does a feminism 101.

At the bottom of the screen, a banner in bold letters reads, "Feminism-- it's a movement for women's rights." Flor starts explaining, feminism is a movement for women's rights.

屏幕底部有一条粗体横幅，上面写着：“女权主义——这是一场争取妇女权利的运动。”弗洛尔开始解释，女权主义是一场争取妇女权利的运动。

It started in the 19th century.

它始于19世纪。

It has to do with the division of labor, child rearing.

这与劳动分工、抚养孩子有关。

Jorge Rial is listening, completely mesmerized, his little eyebrows furrowed, scratching his beard.

豪尔赫·里亚尔听着，完全着了迷，他的小眉毛皱着，抓着胡子。

And while all this is happening, Ana Laura is sitting in the control room upstairs, watching everything, of course-- and also keeping her eye on the ratings monitor.

当这一切发生时，安娜·劳拉坐在楼上的控制室里，注视着一切，当然，她还密切关注着收视率监视器。

The control room is usually a chaotic mess of yelling, but now, with Flor speaking--

控制室通常是一片混乱的叫喊声，但现在，弗洛说话了——

And when we were watching her talking, Flor, the control room went quiet.

当我们看着她说话时，弗洛尔，控制室安静了。

We were all paying attention to what she was saying.

我们都在注意她说的话。

But we were all quiet.

但我们都很安静。

We were really like, silently watching and learning from her.

And then the spell is broken because the phone rings in the control room.

然后，控制室里的电话铃声响起，咒语被打破了。

It's Araceli, the soap opera star who's the whole reason Flora's here.

弗洛拉来到这里的全部原因就是肥皂剧明星阿拉塞利。

She wants to talk to Flor live, right now.

她现在想和弗洛进行现场交谈。

Everyone in the control room is geared up for a good old-fashioed Intrusos spat.

控制室里的每个人都做好了准备，准备迎接一场老式的 Intrusos 争吵。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd Flor was kind of shocked.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd Flor 有点震惊。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Flor Freijo I didn't know that Araceli was going to call.

[说西班牙语] Flor Freijo 我不知道 Araceli 会打电话。

I had no idea of what was going to happen.

我不知道会发生什么。

But it wasn't an ambush.

但这不是伏击。

Araceli wasn't calling to fight.

阿拉切利并不是来打仗的。

Instead she tells Flor, I've been listening really well to what you're saying.

相反，她告诉弗洛尔，我一直在认真听你说的话。

And she wanted the audience to know that she didn't know what feminism was until just now, when she was watching TV and saw Flor explain it.

她想让观众知道，直到刚才她在看电视时看到弗洛解释时，她才知道什么是女权主义。

She starts telling the story of her life through various generations of women, her own single mother and herself.

她开始通过各代女性、她自己的单身母亲和她自己来讲述她的生活故事。

She talks about how she had been sexually abused as a child and emotionally abused as an adult.

她讲述了她小时候如何受到性虐待，以及成年后如何受到情感虐待。

And Araceli told Flor, I know what you're talking about and I agree with you.

阿拉塞利告诉弗洛尔，我知道你在说什么，我同意你的观点。

If this means being a feminist, then I'm a feminist.

如果这意味着成为一名女权主义者，那么我就是一名女权主义者。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd Flor nods, and gives a thumbs up.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd Flor 点点头，竖起大拇指。

By the way, this is never how Intrusos finishes.

顺便说一句，Intrusos 从来都不是这样完成的。

People don't just listen to each other and change their minds.

人们不只是互相倾听并改变想法。

And the ratings-- Ana Laura says the ratings were great, strong enough that she decided, let's do this again tomorrow.

And so it began.

一切就这样开始了。

[OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING] Over the next few days, some of the most famous feminists in Argentina came onto Intrusos.

Comedians, authors, professors-- audiences were stunned.

Someone tweeted, "My ideology is starting to converge with Jorge Rial's, and that terrifies me." It was pretty strange for everyone.

Someone tweeted, "My ideology is starting to converge with Jorge Rial's, and that terrifies me."这对每个人来说都很奇怪。

This very misogynistic show had suddenly become like, the public town hall on feminism in Argentina.

And the ratings were not just good.

而且收视率不仅好。

Ana Laura says they were higher than normal.

安娜·劳拉 (Ana Laura) 表示，这些数字高于正常水平。

She was delighted that she could keep this going.

她很高兴能够继续这样下去。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter There's a journalist called Luciana Baker.

She is also very important in feminism and she's an old friend from college.

And she came to our show.

她也来参加我们的演出。

And when we met backstage we were like, not even in our wildest dreams we could have dreamt about this, you being here in this type of show.

Midway through all of this is when I tuned in, when I started streaming in New York.

The show was like, going through hundreds of years of feminism in a couple of days.

They passed through topics like LGBT rights, workplace harassment, income inequality.

And then the most taboo thing of all-- abortion.

然后是最忌讳的事情——堕胎。

Jorge Rial tied the green handkerchief around his wrist, the one activists who want to legalize abortion wear.

And then he invited the large woman with the gravelly voice who I saw at home in New York City, Senorita Bimbo.

Right off the bat she said, the fact that there's a fat girl on Argentine TV is already a victory.

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd She told me she was actually pretty nervous.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 她告诉我她实际上非常紧张。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter The first thing I thought was, what they're all going to say is like, what is this fat girl doing here, this fat girl feminazi?

[说西班牙语] 口译员我想到的第一件事是，他们都会说，这个胖女孩在这里做什么，这个胖女孩女性？

But she powered through.

但她还是挺过来了。

She had a mission.

她有一个使命。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I knew I wanted to talk about abortion.

My plan was to at least mention it.

我的计划是至少提及它。

And I just sat down and started talking.

我就坐下来开始说话。

I felt like I was going to battle, where I had to use words as arrows, because abortion is something that you don't say.

It's something that you talk about in hushed tones if you have one.

Jasmine Garsd On Intrusos, Senorita Bimbo talked about how abortion is so taboo, you don't even talk about it in fiction.

In Argentine TV and film, unwanted pregnancy is solved by a villain pushing you down the stairs and causing you to miscarry.

在阿根廷电视和电影中，意外怀孕的解决方法是恶棍将你推下楼梯并导致你流产。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd And then about 30 seconds before they cut to commercial and moved to the next guest, Senorita Bimbo said something about abortion that surprised even her.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 然后，在切入广告并转向下一位嘉宾之前大约 30 秒，Senorita Bimbo 说了一些关于堕胎的事情，连她自己都感到惊讶。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd Misoprostol-- she says, I want girls to know about misoprostol.

This is a really big deal.

这确实是一件大事。

Officially, misoprostol is a drug used to treat stomach ulcers, but it can also be used to induce labor.

So in a continent where abortion is mostly banned, women take it if they want to miscarry.

People call it the DIY abortion.

人们称之为DIY堕胎。

She's talking about doing something illegal on one of the most popular daytime talk shows, watched by housewives.

That same day, misoprostol was one of the most Googled words in the country.

"I think you're underestimating your audience," Senorita Bimbo said on the show.

Doña rosa is dead-- doña rosa, that stereotypical Argentine housewife.

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter So the woman that is in front of the TV, and who needs her world to be explained to her through daytime TV, she just doesn't exist anymore.

[说西班牙语] 翻译因此，那个在电视机前、需要通过白天电视向她解释她的世界的女人，她已经不存在了。

Of course, none of this would have happened on Intrusos if the ratings had been bad.

And the ratings were great for reasons that Jorge Rial and Ana Laura can claim no credit for at all.

Feminism has been gaining critical mass in Argentina for the last couple of years.

过去几年来，女权主义在阿根廷越来越受欢迎。

The movement was triggered by these brutal murders of young women, often by boyfriends, husbands, and fathers.

Women started protesting.

妇女们开始抗议。

A whole crusade was born.

一场完整的十字军东征诞生了。

It was called Ni Una Menos, not one less woman.

这个女人名叫“Ni Una Menos”，一个也不少。

And since 2015, this has grown to the point where it's impossible to ignore and has expanded to abortion rights, street harassment, and equal pay.

自 2015 年以来，这一问题已发展到无法忽视的地步，并已扩展到堕胎权、街头骚扰和同工同酬。

It's young people on social media, comedians on YouTube, pop stars on Instagram, gigantic demonstrations.

It just wasn't a topic for daytime talk shows until Jorge, Ana Laura, and Intrusos.

直到 Jorge、Ana Laura 和 Intrusos 出现之前，这才成为日间脱口秀的话题。

During that week on Intrusos, there was this explosion of tweets from young girls perplexed but ecstatic to see feminism on daytime TV.

在 Intrusos 的那一周，年轻女孩们在推特上激增，她们对日间电视上的女权主义感到困惑但又欣喜若狂。

This one girl, Anita Ocampo tweeted, "I showed my dad the Intrusos episode with Senorita Bimbo." I dropped by her house and she told me, these feminists were explaining to Jorge Rial all the things she'd tried to explain but couldn't get her parents to understand.

这位名叫安妮塔·奥坎波 (Anita Ocampo) 的女孩在推特上写道：“我给我爸爸看了《Intrusos》和宾博女士的剧集。”我去她家，她告诉我，这些女权主义者正在向豪尔赫·里亚尔解释所有她试图解释但无法让她父母理解的事情。

So one night she approached her dad.

于是有一天晚上，她找到了她的父亲。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd And she told him, if you watch this episode of Intrusos on YouTube with me, I'll massage your feet.

She ended up getting the whole family to watch.

她最终让全家人都观看了。

She showed them Senorita Bimbo.

她向他们展示了宾博女士。

She pointed to Jorge Rial wearing the same green handkerchief she wears and said, look, it's just like mine.

她指着豪尔赫·里亚尔（Jorge Rial），她戴着和她一样的绿色手帕，说：“看，这和我的一样。”

It opened up a conversation, which she says they've been having ever since.

Anita's mom says she saw Jorge Rial talk about how he's a recovering chauvinist and she says, so is she.

安妮塔的妈妈说，她看到豪尔赫·里亚尔谈论他是一个正在康复的沙文主义者，她说，她也是。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd I'm at, like, 70% feminism, she says.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 我大概有 70% 的女权主义倾向，她说。

I still have 30% left to go.

我还有 30% 的时间要走。

During my week in Argentina I kept trying to talk to Jorge Rial, and he kept blowing me off.

在阿根廷的那一周，我一直试图与豪尔赫·里亚尔交谈，但他总是对我不屑一顾。

Had he really converted to feminism?

他真的皈依了女权主义吗？

Everyone I asked rolled their eyes and pointed to the last few decades of his career.

我问到的每个人都翻白眼，并指出他职业生涯的最后几十年。

They pointed to his recent vicious public fight with one of his daughters.

他们指出他最近与他的一个女儿发生了激烈的公开争斗。

They pointed to how late he is to the whole feminism thing.

他们指出他对整个女权主义的关注是多么的晚。

He's a Johnny come lately.

他是最近才来的约翰尼。

He's only doing this because it will make him more popular.

他这样做只是因为这会让他更受欢迎。

After days of giving me the runaround, he told me to just send my questions.

经过几天的周折，他让我直接提出问题。

And finally, on my very last night in Argentina, my phone lit up.

最后，在我在阿根廷的最后一晚，我的手机亮了。

It was voice memos from Jorge Rial.

这是豪尔赫·里亚尔的语音备忘录。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd "What happened to me?" Rial says.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd “我怎么了？”里亚尔说。

"What made me bring all these feminists onto Intrusos?"

“是什么让我把所有这些女权主义者带入了 Intrusos？”

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd He talks about his 18-year-old daughter, Rosio, and how she's a feminist.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 他谈到了他 18 岁的女儿 Rosio，以及她如何成为一名女权主义者。

"We have these very interesting talks over dinner," he says, "And she started opening this world up to me.

“我们在晚餐时进行了这些非常有趣的谈话，”他说，“她开始向我敞开这个世界。

I am 56 years old.

我今年56岁。

I was raised in a completely sexist culture and I didn't get it.

我是在完全性别歧视的文化中长大的，但我不明白。

That's why I say I'm a recovering chauvinist, thanks to my daughter.

这就是为什么我说我是一个正在康复的沙文主义者，这要感谢我的女儿。

My daughter made me change."

我的女儿让我改变了。”

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd Jorge Rial knows that I think Intrusos is stupid.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd Jorge Rial 知道我认为 Intrusos 很愚蠢。

He knows most people do.

他知道大多数人都这样做。

That's the show's superpower.

这就是这部剧的超能力。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd "Frívolo--" we're frivolous.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd “Frívolo--”我们很轻浮。

We're a show about showbiz.

我们是一个关于演艺圈的节目。

No one suspected that this is where feminism could win.

没有人怀疑这就是女权主义能够获胜的地方。

We eluded the firewalls that kept feminism off of TV.

我们避开了将女权主义排除在电视之外的防火墙。

There was this wall, you couldn't talk about these things on TV.

有这堵墙，你不能在电视上谈论这些事情。

And suddenly it happened on Intrusos.

突然，这种情况发生在 Intrusos 上。

"But to be honest," he said, "it's all because of feminists.

“但说实话，”他说，“这都是因为女权主义者。

They knew any place is good, if you have a strong message."

他们知道，只要传达出强烈的信息，任何地方都是好地方。”

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Jasmine Garsd After the week of feminism, Intrusos was left with a split personality.

[说西班牙语] Jasmine Garsd 经过一周的女权主义之后，Intrusos 出现了人格分裂。

These days, it's a mix of fighting starlets and women's rights activists.

如今，它是战斗新星和女权活动家的混合体。

Jorge Rial's social media is a mix of World Cup woes, celebrity gossip, and then these really earnest feminist tweets.

Like this one a few weeks ago-- "They came to make things better for the coming generations, for our daughters and their daughters, and also for men.

就像几周前的这个——“他们的到来是为了让子孙后代、我们的女儿和他们的女儿以及人类的生活变得更好。

The men who come after us must be better than us.

在我们之后的人一定比我们更好。

We did everything wrong."

我们做的一切都是错的。”

The day after he tweeted that on June 14, Argentina's lower house of Congress approved a bill to legalize abortion.

就在他发推文称6月14日阿根廷国会下议院批准了一项堕胎合法化法案的第二天。

After an all-night debate, it barely passed by only four votes.

And it yet has to pass the upper house.

但它还需要在上议院获得通过。

Still, outside Congress, thousands of women and activists who'd gathered to wait for the results celebrated wildly.

Every time I spoke to those women about what role television like Intrusos played in all this, they got uncomfortable.

On my last day in Argentina I grabbed a coffee with an old friend from high school, Jordana Timerman.

She recently wrote an op-ed for the New York Times about the push to legalize abortion in Argentina, and we talked about the role pop culture played in that.

她最近为《纽约时报》撰写了一篇关于推动阿根廷堕胎合法化的专栏文章，我们讨论了流行文化在其中发挥的作用。

You need to have people like Rial, or pop culture, doña rosa, understanding that this is a necessary right.

Because if not, it's not going to happen.

因为如果不这样做，它就不会发生。

In other words, the message needs to go into homes in the most remote locations of the country.

And TV is one of the only ways to do that.

而电视是实现这一目标的唯一途径之一。

Jordana was saying Intrusos helped.

Jordana 说 Intrusos 有帮助。

But when I asked her about whether we should thank Jorge Rial, she just laughs.

I'm not going on record with that.

我不会记录这一点。

Are you crazy?

你疯了？

I have a name.

我有一个名字。

I know what she means.

我知道她的意思。

After so many years of awful television and this guy's shenanigans, I just don't want to tip my hat to him.

经过这么多年糟糕的电视节目和这个家伙的恶作剧，我只是不想向他脱帽致敬。

And maybe that's part of his penance.

也许这就是他忏悔的一部分。

He did something good and no one will ever thank him for it.

Ira Glass Jasmine Garsd, she's an NPR reporter.

Ira Glass Jasmine Garsd，她是 NPR 记者。

This story was co-produced with Marianne McCune as part of a collaboration with the NPR podcast, Rough Translation.

If you have not heard that show, the premise is they look at how things we talk about here in the United States get talked about elsewhere around the world.

如果你还没有听过那个节目，前提是他们看看我们在美国谈论的事情是如何在世界其他地方谈论的。

This leads into all kinds of stories that take you deep into other cultures and countries in this way.

这会引出各种各样的故事，以这种方式带你深入其他文化和国家。

This is very unusual.

这是非常不寻常的。

Rough Translation, find it at Apple podcasts or the nine million other places you can get a podcast these days.

粗略翻译，可以在 Apple 播客或现在可以找到播客的 900 万个其他地方找到它。

Coming up, OK, you've heard about good cop, bad cop.

But what about a bad cop who now says he's a good cop, and really, really, really, really wants everybody to believe him?

但是，如果一个坏警察现在说自己是个好警察，而且真的真的真的希望每个人都相信他呢？

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, Change You Can Maybe Believe In.

We have stories where things happen that you want to believe, you wish you could believe, but something tells you maybe you should not believe.

我们有一些故事，其中发生的事情你想要相信，你希望你能相信，但有些事情告诉你也许你不应该相信。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, You Have The Right To Remain Angry.

第二幕，你有权保持愤怒。

This story is about a man whose job was to uphold the law and he was terrible at it.

这个故事讲述的是一个人的工作是维护法律，但他在这方面表现得很糟糕。

He says he's changed though, completely changed.

他说他变了，彻底变了。

Lilly Sullivan, one of our producers, heard about him from some video she saw.

我们的制片人之一莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 从她看到的一些视频中听说了他。

There's this news story.

有这样一个新闻故事。

I've watched it a bunch of times, my friend sent it to me.

我看了好几遍了，是朋友发给我的。

Not because she thought I'd like it-- she knew I wouldn't.

不是因为她认为我会喜欢——她知道我不会。

It all went down on this block in Benton Harbor, Michigan.

这一切都发生在密歇根州本顿港的这个街区。

Jameel McGee says he was minding his own business when a police officer accused him of, and arrested him for, dealing drugs.

贾米尔·麦吉 (Jameel McGee) 表示，当一名警察指控他贩毒并逮捕他时，他正忙着自己的事。

Yeah, it was all made up.

是的，一切都是编出来的。

Lilly Sullivan This was on CBS national news in 2016.

莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 这是 2016 年哥伦比亚广播公司 (CBS) 的全国新闻。

The guy talking, who got framed, is black.

说话的那个被陷害的人是黑人。

The cop who framed him is white.

陷害他的警察是白人。

So after it comes out that the guy had been wrongly convicted he gets out of prison.

因此，当这个人被错误定罪的消息曝光后，他就出狱了。

He'd been in for three years.

他已经进来三年了。

And he gets this job at a coffee shop.

他在一家咖啡店找到了这份工作。

You know who his boss is?

你知道他的老板是谁吗？

The cop, the guy who framed him.

那个警察，那个陷害他的人。

He was now the manager there.

他现在是那里的经理。

Reporter By sheer coincidence, they now work side by side in the same cafe.

记者纯属巧合，他们现在在同一家咖啡馆并肩工作。

Excuse me?

打扰一下？

Reporter And it was in these cramped quarters that the bad cop and the wrongfully accused had no choice but to have it out.

记者正是在这些狭小的空间里，坏警察和被冤枉的人别无选择，只能将其揭发。

Lilly Sullivan The cop apologized, and the guy who was framed forgave him.

莉莉·沙利文警察道歉了，被陷害的人也原谅了他。

That was pretty much what I needed to hear.

这正是我需要听到的。

Today, they're not only cordial, they're friends.

今天，他们不仅是亲切的，而且是朋友。

The reporter couldn't stop fawning over how lovely it was.

记者忍不住赞叹它有多可爱。

Such close friends, not long ago, Jameel actually told Andrew he loved him.

这么亲密的朋友，不久前，贾米尔居然告诉安德鲁他爱他。

The problem with this story was, it wasn't the whole story.

这个故事的问题是，它不是故事的全部。

When my friend sent it to me, she told me the cop, whose name is Andrew Collins, he didn't just put one innocent guy in prison.

当我的朋友把它发给我时，她告诉我那个警察，他的名字叫安德鲁·柯林斯，他不只是把一个无辜的人关进监狱。

I Googled this cop and it turns out he falsified police reports and warrants.

我用谷歌搜索了这位警察，结果发现他伪造了警方报告和逮捕令。

He lied on the stand.

他在证人席上撒了谎。

At least 62 cases were either overturned or got thrown out.

至少有 62 个案件被推翻或被驳回。

The small town of Benton Harbor ended up having to pay five and a half million dollars in settlements for civil rights violations.

本顿港小镇最终因侵犯民权而支付了五百五十万美元的和解金。

Then he befriends one guy and all that goes away?

然后他和一个人成为了朋友，然后一切就消失了？

None of the other 61 victims even gets a mention?

其他 61 名受害者中没有一个被提及？

And then he gets to go on TV and tell his story over and over, because annoyingly, America seems to love this kind of story of forgiveness.

然后他开始在电视上一遍又一遍地讲述他的故事，因为令人烦恼的是，美国似乎喜欢这种宽恕的故事。

This involves my next guest, Jameel, and former police officer, Andrew.

这涉及我的下一位客人贾米尔和前警官安德鲁。

That's talk show host, Steve Harvey.

那是脱口秀主持人史蒂夫·哈维。

And here's Megyn Kelly on NBC.

这是 NBC 的梅金·凯利的报道。

Now our series, "Hopeful Holidays," and the story of two men who prove there is always hope for forgiveness and redemption.

现在我们的系列节目“充满希望的假期”讲述了两个男人的故事，他们证明了宽恕和救赎总是有希望的。

Mike Huckabee on Fox.

福克斯电视台的迈克·哈卡比。

Mike Huckabee I don't know of anything more powerful to help us through not only forgiveness and grace, but also racial reconciliation.

迈克·赫卡比（Mike Huckabee）我不知道还有什么比这更强大的东西可以帮助我们不仅获得宽恕和恩典，而且还能实现种族和解。

And God bless you both.

愿上帝保佑你们俩。

[APPLAUSE] Lilly Sullivan Racial reconciliation-- really?

[掌声]莉莉·沙利文种族和解——真的吗？

That's pretty big, as if this one story could hit Undo on a whole country's worth of harm.

这是相当大的，就好像这个故事可以消除整个国家的伤害一样。

These stories are always about people who forgive, preaching this forgiveness thing as some kind of tidy remedy that can set the world right.

这些故事总是关于那些宽恕的人，宣扬宽恕是一种可以纠正世界的灵丹妙药。

And clearly, if these two guys in the coffee shop can set aside their bitter grounds, what's our excuse?

显然，如果咖啡店里的这两个家伙能够抛开他们的痛苦理由，我们还有什么借口呢？

Lilly Sullivan Look, I'm not from this town.

莉莉·沙利文听着，我不是这个镇上的人。

This had nothing to do with me.

这与我无关。

But I wondered if lots of people there saw this coverage and rolled their eyes.

但我想知道那里的很多人是否看到了这篇报道并翻了个白眼。

What about the people who don't forgive?

那些不肯原谅的人怎么办？

Visit Benton Harbor.

参观本顿港。

They're not hard to find.

它们并不难找到。

Fuck him.

操他。

Fuck him.

操他。

I'm serious.

我是认真的。

I'm good.

我很好。

This is Robert Walker, also known as White Boy Rob.

这是罗伯特·沃克，也被称为白人男孩罗布。

Because my mom's white.

因为我妈妈是白人。

Lilly Sullivan You don't look white.

莉莉·沙利文你看起来不像白人。

Why, thank you.

为什么，谢谢。

Lilly Sullivan I met him at his house.

莉莉·沙利文我在他家遇见了他。

Or the truth is, I surprised him at his house.

或者说事实是，我在他家里让他大吃一惊。

I found him in his backyard, riding his lawnmower in his sweatpants.

我在他的后院找到了他，穿着运动裤骑着割草机。

Rob's definitely noticed that no one's doing a TV story about how he feels about this cop.

罗布肯定注意到没有人在电视上讲述他对这名警察的感受。

When they went to the Steve Harvey show, why you ain't take me?

当他们去看史蒂夫·哈维秀时，你为什么不带我去？

You ain't take me because I was going to tell you the motherfucking truth.

你不带我走是因为我要告诉你该死的真相。

You-- you hyping up this big thing about one person forgiving you.

你——你大肆宣传一个人原谅你的大事。

That ain't the only person that you fucked over.

那不是唯一一个被你操过的人。

That's not-- and it pisses me off that, you know, y'all kissing buddy buddies, but what about everybody else that you done in?

那不是——这让我很生气，你知道，你们都在亲吻好朋友，但是你们做过的其他人呢？

What about everybody else?

其他人呢？

Rob says Collins was so corrupt that people would do all kinds of things just to stay out of his way.

罗布说，柯林斯是如此腐败，以至于人们会做各种各样的事情来不妨碍他。

For a while, one of the local radio stations, 105.3, would warn people whenever Collins was on duty.

有一段时间，只要柯林斯值班，当地一家广播电台 105.3 就会向人们发出警告。

This one time, they did a special show-- call in and tell us your Corrupt Collins story.

这一次，他们做了一场特别的表演——打电话来告诉我们你腐败的柯林斯的故事。

So one day, Rob's at a stoplight and he sees Collins in the lane next to him.

有一天，罗布在红绿灯处，看到柯林斯在他旁边的车道上。

I was on M139 in Pipestone.

我当时在 Pipestone 的 M139 公路上。

I was in a black Impala SS.

我开的是一辆黑色 Impala SS。

This is actually like a race car.

这实际上就像一辆赛车。

He was next to me in a Ford Taurus, which is a putt-putt to me.

他坐在我旁边，开着一辆福特金牛座，这对我来说是一个噗噗的声音。

Then when I was at the stop light, I looked over at him.

然后当我到达红绿灯时，我看了他一眼。

He looked over at me.

他看着我。

And then when I turned, he just jumped straight behind me.

然后当我转身时，他就直接跳到我身后。

At this point, I'm thinking that he's going to plant some drugs on me.

此时此刻，我想他是要在我身上植入一些药物。

Collins throws on his lights and sirens.

柯林斯打开车灯并鸣响警报。

And Rob's like, I'm not stopping.

罗布说，我不会停下来。

Instead, he says, he just keeps driving, under the speed limit with Collins following him, lights and sirens on.

他说，相反，他只是在限速下继续行驶，柯林斯紧随其后，车灯和警报器也亮着。

Rob drives for four minutes like this, all the way to the police station, the only place he thinks he might be safe.

罗布就这样开了四分钟，一直到警察局，这是他认为自己唯一安全的地方。

I went to the police station and told them, he want to search my car.

我去警察局告诉他们，他要搜查我的车。

Could you please watch him so he won't plant nothing in my car?

请你看好他，以免他在我车里放任何东西？

What did they say to you?

他们对你说了什么？

Robert Walker Nothing.

罗伯特·沃克什么也没有。

They watched.

他们看着。

They watched him search.

他们看着他寻找。

They knew.

他们知道。

They knew he was dirty.

他们知道他很脏。

I mean, come on, what guy is going to pull up to the police station, get arrested, and the whole time, I'm not worried about nothing?

我的意思是，来吧，哪个家伙会把车停到警察局，然后被捕，而我却什么都不担心？

I'm just worried about him planting something.

我只是担心他种下什么东西。

Y'all watch him and make sure he don't plant nothing.

你们都看着他，确保他没有种植任何东西。

Rob went to jail that day.

那天罗布进了监狱。

Not for drugs-- Collins didn't find any.

不是为了毒品——柯林斯没有找到任何毒品。

But he arrested Rob anyway for fleeing and eluding.

但他还是以逃跑和躲避为由逮捕了罗布。

Rob didn't do much time, a couple of days, bonded out $3,000.

罗布没花多少时间，只用了几天，就抵押了 3,000 美元。

But he did get convicted.

但他确实被定罪了。

In Michigan, fleeing and eluding is a felony.

在密歇根州，逃跑和躲避是重罪。

It's still on his record.

这仍然在他的记录中。

This other guy, Quacy Roberts, suffered more.

另一个人，奎西·罗伯茨，遭受的痛苦更多。

In 2008, Quacy was leaving his girlfriend's house, hot summer day, when Collins and his partner pulled up.

2008 年，炎热的夏日，奎西正要离开女友家，这时柯林斯和他的伴侣把车停了下来。

The partner said he'd seen Quacy throw something.

合伙人说他看到奎西扔了一些东西。

Collins patted Quacy down while his partner walked around the block.

柯林斯拍了拍奎西，而他的搭档则绕着街区走了一圈。

The partner came back and waved a baggie of crack in Quacy's face.

合伙人回来了，在奎西脸上挥舞着一袋裂纹。

Quacy says it wasn't his, but he ended up serving a year in jail.

奎西说这不是他的，但他最终被判入狱一年。

It was a terrible year to be in jail.

那是监狱里可怕的一年。

He and his girlfriend were about to have a baby.

他和他的女朋友即将要生孩子了。

The baby didn't make it.

宝宝没有成功。

When you have a stillborn, it's really a person.

当你有一个死产时，它真的是一个人。

You got to go through all those stages, name it, get a social security number and everything.

你必须经历所有这些阶段，说出它的名字，获得社会安全号码等等。

You got to go through everything.

你必须经历一切。

It's a person.

这是一个人。

You got to bury it.

你必须把它埋掉。

Yes, because he was mine.

是的，因为他是我的。

Lilly Sullivan Quacy couldn't be with his girlfriend for any of that.

莉莉·沙利文·奎西因此无法和他的女朋友在一起。

He had to hear about it through the prison phone.

他必须通过监狱电话得知这件事。

Not long after that, his girlfriend met someone else.

不久之后，他的女朋友又认识了别人。

So he's pretty angry at Collins.

所以他对柯林斯很生气。

Quacy's seen those news stories too.

奎西也看过那些新闻报道。

His mom called him once and told him to turn on the Megyn Kelly show, one of those stories with Andrew Collins and Jameel McGee, the guy who forgave him.

有一次他妈妈给他打电话，让他打开梅根·凯利的节目，这是关于安德鲁·柯林斯和原谅他的贾米尔·麦吉的故事之一。

It's good that McGee smiling about everything.

麦吉对一切都微笑着，这很好。

He must didn't lose nobody.

他一定没有失去任何人。

He blessed.

他祝福。

I guess he blessed.

我猜他是祝福的。

He's blessed?

他有福了？

Quacy Roberts Yeah, I guess he did four years and didn't lose nobody.

奎西·罗伯茨（Quacy Roberts）是的，我猜他做了四年并且没有失去任何人。

I did a year and lost a son.

我做了一年，失去了一个儿子。

So I'm-- I think an Andrew Collins interview with me would be-- I won't be showing no teeth for grinning at him.

所以我——我想安德鲁·柯林斯对我的采访会是——我不会因为对他咧嘴而露出牙齿。

Maybe if I wouldn't have lost my child, maybe I'd be smiling too.

如果我没有失去孩子，也许我也会微笑。

Quacy hasn't seen Collins since he went to jail, so Quacy never got an apology.

自从柯林斯入狱后，奎西就没有见过他，所以奎西从未得到道歉。

But he thinks he deserves one.

但他认为他应得的。

I asked if he wanted to meet with Collins.

我问他是否想见柯林斯。

He said yeah.

他说是的。

It was easier to find Collins.

找到柯林斯更容易。

He actually has a publicist from when he and Jameel wrote a book together.

实际上，当他和贾米尔一起写一本书时，他就有了一位公关人员。

It came out last year.

它是去年出来的。

It's described as "an unlikely journey of forgiveness and friendship." Collins is big-- 6'1", blue eyes, dresses like a surfer who's also on the football team, who's also in a Christian punk band-- flip-flops, shorts, a few tattoos, some with scripture.

它被描述为“一次不太可能的宽恕和友谊之旅”。柯林斯身材高大，身高 6 英尺 1 英寸，蓝眼睛，穿着像冲浪运动员，也是橄榄球队成员，也是基督教朋克乐队的成员。他穿着人字拖、短裤，有一些纹身，有些还带有经文。

These days, he freely admits that he'd pull people over without probable cause, write phony police reports, falsify warrants, plant drugs in people's cars.

如今，他坦率地承认，他会在没有合理理由的情况下把人拦在路边，写假警察报告，伪造逮捕令，在人们的车里放置毒品。

I think one of the ways he's able to sleep at night is that he believes nearly all the people he wrongly arrested were drug dealers.

我认为他晚上能睡得着的原因之一是他相信几乎所有被他错误逮捕的人都是毒贩。

He thought they should be in jail.

他认为他们应该被关进监狱。

And about those TV stories, I was surprised, but Collins actually agrees with me.

关于那些电视故事，我很惊讶，但柯林斯实际上同意我的观点。

He thinks it's messed up how they all focus on him and Jameel and forgiveness and ignore the harm he did to so many people in the community.

他认为他们都把注意力集中在他和贾米尔以及宽恕上，却忽视了他对社区中这么多人造成的伤害，这是一团糟。

It's not a story about a community, though.

但这不是一个关于社区的故事。

It should be, but it hasn't been.

应该是这样，但事实并非如此。

It's been told as a story about Jameel and I, just this fun-loving story, this fun, cute story we can pet.

这是一个关于贾米尔和我的故事，只是一个有趣的故事，一个我们可以宠爱的有趣、可爱的故事。

But I don't-- I've never met a reporter that's like, I would like to meet somebody who still hates you.

但我不——我从来没有遇到过一个记者，我想见一个仍然恨你的人。

I'm happy to be that reporter.

我很高兴成为那个记者。

And he said he was game to meet with Quacy.

他说他很乐意与奎西会面。

He sees as his responsibility to apologize as much as he can.

他认为自己有责任尽可能地道歉。

It's his restitution, he says.

他说，这是他的赔偿。

And he has a whole way he deals with conversations like this.

他有一套处理这样的谈话的方法。

He's worked out all the words, the best way to do it.

他已经想出了所有的词语和最好的方式。

It's all about owning what you did and giving people a chance to lament the wrong things you did.

这一切都是为了承认你所做的事情，并让人们有机会哀叹你所做的错误事情。

And then I'll say, you're exactly-- you're absolutely right.

然后我会说，你是完全正确的。

I'm so sorry for those things I did.

我对我所做的事感到非常抱歉。

And it-- it kind of sucks the anger out of somebody when the offender is standing right in front of you saying, you're right.

当冒犯者站在你面前说“你是对的”时，这可以消除某人的愤怒。

No, no justification, no minimizing, no-- no reason.

不，没有理由，没有最小化，不——没有理由。

I can't give you any reason why I did it.

我无法告诉你我这么做的任何理由。

There's no good reason why I did that to you, and I owe you an apology.

我对你这么做是没有充分理由的，我欠你一个道歉。

Collins suggested that he and Quacy meet at the office of this Christian organization where he volunteers.

柯林斯建议他和奎西在他担任志愿者的这个基督教组织的办公室见面。

It had been 10 years since they'd seen each other.

他们已经有十年没见面了。

What's up, man?

怎么了，伙计？

Quacy Roberts What's going on with you?

奎西·罗伯茨你怎么了？

How you doing?

你怎么样？

Long time no see.

好久不见。

You haven't aged a bit, man.

你还没有老一点，伙计。

No, I have haven't.

不，我没有。

Andrew Collins What they say, black don't crack?

安德鲁·柯林斯他们说，黑色不会破裂？

No, it crack.

不，它裂了。

Especially if you drink a whole lot.

特别是如果你喝了很多酒。

Right.

对。

No, man, you look good.

不，伙计，你看起来不错。

I'm not used to seeing you without a hat, though.

不过我还是不习惯看到你不戴帽子。

There you go.

就这样吧。

There you go.

就这样吧。

Lilly Sullivan You guys remember each other now?

Lilly Sullivan 你们现在还记得彼此吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Quacy Roberts I remember like it was yesterday.

奎西·罗伯茨（Quacy Roberts）我记得就像昨天一样。

They sit down.

他们坐下来。

Collins says, I'm trying to remember exactly how I know you.

柯林斯说，我正在努力准确地记住我是如何认识你的。

I know we've had plenty of run-ins.

我知道我们有过很多次争吵。

I don't want to say that, like, from the beginning.

我从一开始就不想这么说。

Like, so it's been 10 years since I've even been there.

就这样，我已经十年没来过那里了。

So if I don't remember specifics, like, that's not to disrespect you or anything like that, because I know this was very personal to you.

所以，如果我不记得具体细节，比如，这并不是不尊重你或类似的事情，因为我知道这对你来说非常个人化。

It's just that I don't remember.

只是我不记得了。

There was so many people and I did so many bad things, so.

人太多了，我做了很多坏事，所以。

I'll start to make it specific, because I still have the police report.

我会开始具体说明，因为我还有警方的报告。

They talk about the day that Collins and his partner arrested Quacy.

他们谈论柯林斯和他的搭档逮捕奎西的那天。

Collins' partner was dirty, too.

柯林斯的搭档也很脏。

He went to prison after Collins did.

柯林斯入狱后，他也入狱了。

And he's actually the one who said he saw Quacy throw the baggie of drugs, which Quacy says he didn't do.

事实上，他说他看到奎西扔了一袋毒品，但奎西说他没有这么做。

Collins says he remembers going back to the spot later to take photos for the trial and realizing his partner was probably lying.

柯林斯说，他记得后来回到现场为审判拍照，并意识到他的伴侣可能在撒谎。

He couldn't have seen what he said he saw.

他不可能看到他所说的看到的东西。

There were trees in the way.

路上有树。

So I remember thinking then, like, OK, my partner might have stretched the truth a little bit.

所以我记得当时我想，好吧，我的搭档可能有点夸大了事实。

But I still was convinced you were guilty because he said you were guilty, right?

但我仍然相信你有罪，因为他说你有罪，对吗？

So--

所以——

It's what the police say.

这是警察说的。

Andrew Collins I know I wanted you, though.

安德鲁·柯林斯不过，我知道我想要你。

I know I wanted you to be guilty.

我知道我想让你有罪。

Why?

为什么？

Andrew Collins Quacy bothered me when I was a police officer, because he didn't-- he didn't just shut up.

当我还是一名警察时，安德鲁·柯林斯·奎西（Andrew Collins Quacy）困扰着我，因为他不闭嘴。

Like, he'd tell me my breath stunk, and--

就像，他会告诉我我的呼吸很臭，而且——

I'd never-- Lilly Sullivan Quacy thought Collins had gotten off way too easy for what he did.

我从来没有——莉莉·沙利文·奎西认为柯林斯的所作所为太过容易了。

He only spent a year and a half in jail.

他只在监狱里呆了一年半。

Colin says he hears that a lot.

科林说他经常听到这样的说法。

I think there are some people that would say, day for day, whatever those other people did in jail, he should have to do that now-- day for day.

我想有些人会说，日复一日，无论其他人在监狱里做了什么，他现在都应该这样做——日复一日。

Right.

对。

That would have sounded good.

听起来不错。

That would have been fair.

那是公平的。

Like whatever, you can set it by saying, one person got two to five.

不管怎样，你可以这样设置：一个人有两到五个。

Another person got 40-something months to something months.

另一个人则有 40 个月到几个月的时间。

Take all them, add all of them together, and see can you face up to them?

把它们全部拿出来，把它们加在一起，看看你能面对它们吗？

Bad mofo, ooh.

坏脾气，哦。

Yeah, yeah, that'd be appropriate.

是啊是啊，这样就合适了。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm glad it didn't happen.

我很高兴这事没有发生。

But I could see that argument.

但我可以看到这个论点。

Yeah.

是的。

Lilly Sullivan A lot of the conversation was awkward.

莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 很多谈话都很尴尬。

Collins took a long time to get to his apology, and when he did, it was kind of indirect.

柯林斯花了很长时间才道歉，而且他道歉的方式也是间接的。

It seems like Quacy barely even noticed.

奎西似乎几乎没有注意到。

Even though I wasn't the one that said I saw you throw it, it was my influence in that situation that brought my partner to a place where he felt comfortable saying those lies, if they were lies, right?

尽管我不是那个说我看到你扔球的人，但正是我在那种情况下的影响力让我的搭档能够放心地说出这些谎言，如果它们是谎言的话，对吗？

So therefore, I do owe you an- I believe, man to man, I owe you an apology because I operated in the system that's broken.

因此，我确实欠你一个——我相信，人与人之间，我欠你一个道歉，因为我在一个损坏的系统中工作。

And I helped make it--

我帮助做到了——

So what you-- Andrew Collins --even more broken.

所以你——安德鲁·柯林斯——更崩溃了。

So what you saying is, you could have just been more blunt like that.

所以你说的是，你本来可以更直白一些。

What got to Quacy more than the apology was something that they saw eye to eye on, and kind of bonded over.

比道歉更让奎西感动的是，他们意见一致，而且有些默契。

For most of the hour, they talked about how bad the policing is in Benton Harbor.

在一个小时的大部分时间里，他们都在谈论本顿港的治安有多糟糕。

Benton Harbor is 85% black with a police department that's mostly white that has a history of misconduct.

本顿港 85% 是黑人，警察局大部分是白人，有不当行为的历史。

There have been decades of protests against the police and a few riots.

针对警察的抗议活动已经持续了数十年，还发生过几次骚乱。

Collins has named names in court depositions, talked about how many officers were complicit in bad policing.

柯林斯在法庭证词中指名道姓，谈到了有多少警官参与了不良警务工作。

He spends a lot of his book detailing illegal behavior by cops that he says he witnessed and participated in.

他在书中用大量篇幅详细描述了警察的非法行为，他说自己亲眼目睹并参与了这些行为。

He talks to police trainees about corruption and racism and how easy it is to slip into those things.

他与受训警察谈论腐败和种族主义，以及陷入这些事情是多么容易。

So he and Quacy got into all of that.

所以他和奎西参与了这一切。

They know the same stories, same cops and judges and prosecutors, people they both believe to be crooked who never got caught.

他们知道同样的故事，同样的警察、法官和检察官，他们都认为这些人是骗子，但从未被抓住。

There's lots of insider talk.

有很多内幕消息。

Right.

对。

Quacy Roberts You see Officer [BLEEP] on film.

奎西·罗伯茨（Quacy Roberts）你在电影中看到警官[BLEEP]。

I'm telling them, I want to subpoena Officer [BLEEP].

我告诉他们，我想传唤警官[BLEEP]。

Oh, we can't find him.

哦，我们找不到他。

We don't know where he at.

我们不知道他在哪里。

Right.

对。

Andrew Collins That's crazy, man.

安德鲁·柯林斯这太疯狂了，伙计。

Different officer, same candy wrapper.

不同的军官，同样的糖果包装。

But the system itself is-- man, it's just full of corruption.

但这个系统本身——伙计，它充满了腐败。

You know, you see corruption day in and day out.

你知道，你日复一日地看到腐败。

You stop viewing people as human.

你不再将人们视为人。

You start to see them as, you know, the next prize, the next notch in my belt, in my career, right?

你开始将它们视为我职业生涯中的下一个奖项、下一个级别，对吧？

Collins really was trying to connect and win Quacy over.

柯林斯确实在努力与奎西建立联系并赢得奎西的支持。

He even offered to help Quacy with a case he has pending.

他甚至主动提出帮助奎西处理他悬而未决的案件。

You want me to take a copy of the report?

你要我拿一份报告吗？

Well, I mean, if you want to, give me the report.

好吧，我的意思是，如果你愿意的话，就把报告给我。

Let me look through it.

让我看一下。

Trust.

信任。

I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen crooked police work before.

我不是律师，但我以前见过不诚实的警察工作。

Let me look through it and just show you like, hey, fight this, fight this, fight this.

让我看一下，然后告诉你，嘿，战斗这个，战斗这个，战斗这个。

They seem to get along fine.

他们似乎相处得很好。

They were polite enough.

他们很有礼貌。

Quacy seemed like, whatever.

奎西看起来就像是，无论如何。

An ex-cop who says he's on your side?

一个前警察说他站在你这边？

It can't hurt.

它不会造成伤害。

After it was over, I walked with Quacy to his car.

结束后，我和奎西一起走向他的车。

So how are you feeling?

那么你感觉怎么样？

Quacy Roberts I'm feeling all right.

奎西·罗伯茨我感觉很好。

You're not mad at him?

你不生他的气吗？

Quacy Roberts How can you get mad to a person that we ain't even at the bottom of the situation yet?

奎西·罗伯茨（Quacy Roberts）：你怎么能对一个我们还没到最底层的人生气呢？

Meaning, Collins didn't invent dirty policing, but he admitted to it.

这意味着，柯林斯并没有发明肮脏的治安，但他承认了这一点。

Collins confirmed everything Quacy already believed about the courts and prosecutors and judges, and about the Benton Harbor police who usually deny everything.

柯林斯证实了奎西已经相信的关于法院、检察官和法官的一切，以及关于通常否认一切的本顿港警察的一切。

But by us talking, we find out, 10 years later, that he on the same page that I'm on, fighting against the same people that I'm fighting against.

但通过我们的交谈，我们发现，十年后，他和我站在同一立场上，与我对抗的同一个人作战。

He looking at the police point of view in the system.

他在系统中查看着警察的观点。

I'm looking at the street point of view of the system.

我正在观察系统的街道观点。

So both of us looking at it both ways, his way and my way.

所以我们都以两种方式看待这件事，他的方式和我的方式。

And I'm looking at it my way and his way.

我以我和他的方式看待这件事。

Lilly Sullivan Rob Walker, who used to be known as White Boy Rob, he sees things differently.

莉莉·沙利文·罗布·沃克（Lilly Sullivan Rob Walker），曾被称为白人男孩罗布（White Boy Rob），他对事物的看法有所不同。

At this point in my life, if he did apologize, it don't mean shit.

在我生命的这个阶段，如果他真的道歉了，那也没什么意义。

Honestly?

老实说？

I just want one chance to whoop his ass.

我只是想要一次机会狠狠地骂他一顿。

As I said, he didn't want to talk with Collins.

正如我所说，他不想与柯林斯交谈。

But he told me they did bump into each other accidentally.

但他告诉我他们确实无意中撞到了对方。

It's a small town.

这是一个小镇。

It happened at that cafe from the news story.

事情发生在新闻报道中的那家咖啡馆。

So when I see him, I said-- I said, Collins.

所以当我看到他时，我说——我说，柯林斯。

And he looked.

他看了看。

And when he looked at me, I said, man, you've been on some bullshit.

当他看着我时，我说，伙计，你胡说八道。

He want to talk about how that ain't him no more.

他想谈谈那不再是他了。

Well, I told him, I don't want any of that shit.

好吧，我告诉他，我不想要那些狗屎。

That don't help me.

那对我没有帮助。

It don't help me that you want to-- all of the sudden you want to change.

你突然想要改变，这对我没有帮助。

Oh, let me ask you-- I'm going to be totally honest with you.

哦，让我问你——我会完全诚实地告诉你。

Did he understand that I changed?

他明白我的改变了吗？

He'd changed a lot.

他改变了很多。

Back when Collins arrested him, he'd been away from drugs for years.

当柯林斯逮捕他时，他已经远离毒品多年了。

Everyone knew that, he says.

他说，每个人都知道这一点。

He even put on his license plate, game over.

他甚至戴上了车牌，游戏结束了。

And it was on his car that day that Collins pulled him over.

那天，柯林斯就是在他的车上把他拦下来的。

Rob's gotten plaques from the city for his community work.

罗布因其社区工作而获得了市政府授予的奖牌。

He started an annual picnic with free rides and food, paid for it all out of pocket.

他开始了一年一度的野餐活动，免费乘车和食物，费用全部自掏腰包。

But he still has a felony on his record from that run-in with Collins.

但他因与柯林斯的冲突而留下了重罪记录。

So why should I understand he changed?

那么我为什么要理解他变了呢？

I shouldn't.

我不应该。

I should get to treat you the same way you treat me.

我应该像你对待我一样对待你。

You never understood that I changed, that that wasn't my life no more.

你永远不明白我改变了，那不再是我的生活。

Now that you claiming that you changed, I feel the same way.

现在你声称你改变了，我也有同样的感觉。

You still a dirty motherfucker to me.

你对我来说仍然是个肮脏的混蛋。

I don't care what did you say.

我不在乎你说什么。

If Collins had a chance to do it all over again, he'd do it all over again.

如果柯林斯有机会重来一次，他会重来一次。

Dirty cop-- he was a dirty cop, he is.

肮脏的警察——他就是一个肮脏的警察，他确实是。

And to me, that forgiveness shit is overrated.

对我来说，宽恕这种狗屎被高估了。

A takeaway which, of course, is the opposite of all of those news stories.

当然，这与所有这些新闻报道相反。

Is there a lesson for America from this?

美国能从中吸取教训吗？

No. Lilly Sullivan The story of someone who doesn't forgive, who thinks being angry is a totally reasonable way to feel.

不。莉莉·沙利文（Lilly Sullivan）这个故事讲述的是一个不宽恕的人，他认为生气是一种完全合理的感受方式。

Yeah, maybe it's not heartwarming.

是的，也许这并不温暖。

But what's wrong with bearing a grudge forever?

但永远怀恨在心有什么不好呢？

It could be something to hold onto that keeps you sane.

它可能是一些可以让你保持理智的东西。

Ira Glass Lilly Sullivan is one of the producers of our show.

艾拉·格拉斯·莉莉·沙利文是我们节目的制片人之一。

[MUSIC - "MAKE A CHANGE" BY DURAND JONES & THE INDICATIONS]

[音乐 - DURAND JONES 的“MAKE A CHANGE”及指示]

(SINGING) To make you want me I can fabricate the truth.

（唱）为了让你想要我，我可以编造事实。

I'll give you easy, it'll keep me destitute.

我会给你轻松，但它会让我一贫如洗。

You hang me up on the line, hang me out to dry, and you got nothing to lose.

你把我挂在绳子上，晾干，你就没有什么可失去的。

Credits Ira Glass Our program is produced today by Robyn Semien.

图片来源：Ira Glass 我们的节目今天由 Robyn Semien 制作。

The people who put together our show today include Ellen Baker, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Jarrett Floyd, Damien Grave, David Kestenbaum, Nikki Meek, Alvin Mellot, Nadia Raymond, Alyssa Ship, Julie Snyder, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney.

今天节目的制作人包括 Ellen Baker、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Jarrett Floyd、Damien Grave、David Kestenbaum、Nikki Meek、Alvin Mellot、Nadia Raymond、Alyssa Ship、Julie Snyder、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney。

Our senior producer is Brian Reed.

我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。

Our managing editor is Susan Burton.

我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿。

Special thanks to Carolina Iwanow, Louise Seamster, Paz Saravia, Laura Rajchman, Barbara Barisch, Naomi Daremblum, Joanna Broder, Reverend Edward Pinkney, Gregory Warner, Ashley Lopez, and Ben Philpott.

特别感谢 Carolina Iwanow、Louise Seamster、Paz Saravia、Laura Rajchman、Barbara Barisch、Naomi Daremblum、Joanna Broder、Reverend Edward Pinkney、Gregory Warner、Ashley Lopez 和 Ben Philpott。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org, where you can listen to our archive of over 600 episodes for absolutely free.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org，您可以在其中完全免费收听我们的 600 多集档案。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he was complaining today about how he'd gotten two tickets-- two, both for littering.

你知道，他今天抱怨自己怎么得到了两张罚单——两张，都是因为乱扔垃圾。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

[MUSIC - "MAKE A CHANGE" BY DURAND JONES & THE INDICATIONS]

[音乐 - DURAND JONES 的“MAKE A CHANGE”及指示]

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。