65: Who's Canadian? - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #65 | June 1, 2001 65: Who's Canadian?
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 65 集 | 2001 年 6 月 1 日 65：谁是加拿大人？
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Passing Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life .
从 WBEZ 芝加哥经过 Ira Glass，这就是“美国生活”。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And our program today really began at a dinner conversation about a month ago.
我们今天的节目实际上是从一个月前的一次晚餐谈话开始的。
Three members of the This American Life staff-- Alix, Nancy and Paul-- were eating together.
《This American Life》的三名工作人员——阿利克斯、南希和保罗——正在一起吃饭。
I don't know how it came up.
我不知道它是怎么产生的。
I don't know which one of us brought it up.
我不知道我们中哪一个人提出了这个问题。
I don't know how it started.
我不知道它是怎么开始的。
I don't know how it first came up.
我不知道它最初是怎么出现的。
I don't even remember how we got on the topic, honestly.
老实说，我什至不记得我们是如何进入这个话题的。
But we started mentioning Canadians.
但我们开始提到加拿大人。
And I guess I was doing most of it, as the Canadian in the group.
我想我作为小组中的加拿大人做了大部分工作。
He started with William Shatner, and I thought that was wrong.
他从威廉·沙特纳开始，我认为这是错误的。
What did he say?
他说什么？
Alix Spiegel That he was Canadian.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 他是加拿大人。
That he was Canadian, yeah.
他是加拿大人，是的。
Ira Glass And what's the problem with that?
Ira Glass：这有什么问题吗？
Well, the problem is that I grew up watching Star Trek.
好吧，问题是我是看着《星际迷航》长大的。
And he is like my American ideal.
他就像我的美国理想。
I mean, he represented for me everything that's good about America, in a way.
我的意思是，在某种程度上，他代表了美国的一切优点。
Alix was saying, if William Shatner is Canadian, I might as well be Canadian.
阿利克斯说，如果威廉·沙特纳是加拿大人，我也可能是加拿大人。
It isn't just that there are Canadians among us, it's that they're at the very epicenter of our culture.
这不仅是因为我们中间有加拿大人，而且他们是我们文化的中心。
It's the guy who created Saturday Night Live and Jim Carrey and Michael J.
他是《周六夜现场》、《金·凯瑞》和《迈克尔·J·肯尼迪》的创作者。
Fox.
狐狸。
It's Mike Myers and the blond from Baywatch , Pamela Anderson Lee, and the director of the Terminator films, James Cameron.
这是迈克·梅尔斯和《海滩救护队》中的金发女郎帕梅拉·安德森·李，以及《终结者》电影的导演詹姆斯·卡梅隆。
It's Matthew Perry and Jason Priestley, Alanis Morissette and Celine Dion, and the bassist in Courtney Love's band, Hole.
他们是马修·佩里 (Matthew Perry) 和杰森·普里斯特利 (Jason Priestley)、艾拉妮丝·莫莉塞特 (Alanis Morissette) 和席琳·迪翁 (Celine Dion)，以及考特尼·洛夫 (Courtney Love) 乐队 Hole 的贝斯手。
I remember Alix being continually and repeatedly amazed.
我记得阿利克斯不断地、反复地感到惊讶。
I mean, she stopped eating, I think.
我是说，我想她已经停止进食了。
And it wasn't just that she'd be shocked at one and would then sort of go on.
这不仅仅是因为她会感到震惊然后继续说下去。
She'd come back to ones that were shocking earlier.
她又回到了之前那些令人震惊的事情。
"Peter Jennings?
“彼得·詹宁斯？
I can't believe it!"
我简直不敢相信！”
I remember Alix being really freaked out about Peter Jennings,
我记得阿利克斯对彼得·詹宁斯感到非常害怕，
Peter Jennings, especially.
尤其是彼得·詹宁斯。
Ira Glass But he's just a news reader.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）但他只是一个新闻读者。
But he delivers information about America to Americans.
但他向美国人传递有关美国的信息。
He's like the leader who binds us together?
他就像将我们联系在一起的领导者？
Yeah, and he interprets our culture for us.
是的，他为我们诠释了我们的文化。
So it's like having some Czechoslovakian as your vice president or something.
这就像让某个捷克斯洛伐克人担任副总统之类的。
I mean, it's just wrong.
我的意思是，这是错误的。
There's something about that that's wrong.
这件事有些不对劲。
She just thought it was wrong, that actually, there should be an actual law against it.
她只是认为这是错误的，实际上应该有一个实际的法律来反对它。
For there to be a Canadian broadcasting the news?
会有加拿大人播报新闻吗？
Well, anchoring.
嗯，抛锚。
I think CNN, she probably would let a CNN anchor be Canadian, but not ABC.
我认为 CNN，她可能会让 CNN 的主播是加拿大人，但不会是 ABC。
Well, I think that Americans generally think of Canadians as a pretty quiet, nondescript, stay-at-home kind of culture.
嗯，我认为美国人普遍认为加拿大人是一种非常安静、不起眼、待在家里的文化。
And when Canadians come to the United States and have that kind of impact on the culture, I think it's a surprising fact.
当加拿大人来到美国并对文化产生这种影响时，我认为这是一个令人惊讶的事实。
But I also think that it's a little disturbing and spooky to Americans because they haven't known.
但我也认为这对美国人来说有点令人不安和恐怖，因为他们还不知道。
It's like suddenly discovering that everything you believed about someone was false.
这就像突然发现你所相信的关于某人的一切都是错误的。
I guess it's the whole invasion of the body snatchers syndrome.
我猜这是身体掠夺者综合症的整体入侵。
They look like us, but they're not us.
他们看起来像我们，但他们不是我们。
It's weirdly like people hearing that somebody they didn't know was gay is gay, and it turned them back on themselves, that they could have brushed so close and not known.
这很奇怪，就像人们听到他们不认识的人是同性恋时就是同性恋一样，这让他们重新审视自己，因为他们本可以如此亲密地擦肩而过却不为人所知。
He's Canadian, so that's why he never married.
他是加拿大人，所以这就是他从未结婚的原因。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass The thing about the Canadians among us is it's not clear what it means.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我们当中的加拿大人并不清楚这意味着什么。
Well, I think that's part of what is so compelling about it.
嗯，我认为这就是它如此引人注目的部分原因。
It doesn't suggest anything.
它没有暗示任何事情。
It's not that, oh, he's Russian.
不是这样的，哦，他是俄罗斯人。
He must be communist.
他一定是共产主义者。
Oh, he's French, he must be rude.
哦，他是法国人，他一定很粗鲁。
It's just a sense that they're a little off somehow, in some way that you don't understand, and you can't pin it down.
只是一种感觉，他们在某种程度上、以某种你不理解的方式有点偏离，而且你无法确定它。
And that makes it all the more unsettling.
这让事情变得更加令人不安。
You can't put it anywhere and just have it rest there.
你不能把它放在任何地方然后就让它休息在那里。
It's just sort of continually surprising and disturbing.
这只是不断地令人惊讶和不安。
Well, today on our program, we try to make some sense out of what it means, having this Canadian menace among us, if it is a menace.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们试图理解加拿大的威胁在我们中间意味着什么，如果它是一种威胁的话。
All this hour, stories by and about the Canadians in our midst.
在这一个小时里，我们讲述了加拿大人的故事。
Act One, White Like Me, one Canadian's attempt at passing in New York City.
第一幕，《像我一样的白人》，一名加拿大人试图在纽约市过世。
Act Two, The World's Most Perfect Pneumatic Vacuum, in which our own Sarah Vowell arm wrestles with Ian Brown of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation over what it means to be an American and what it means to be a Canadian and if they are any different at all.
第二幕，世界上最完美的气动真空，我们自己的莎拉·沃威尔（Sarah Vowell）与加拿大广播公司的伊恩·布朗（Ian Brown）就作为美国人和加拿大人意味着什么以及他们是否有任何不同进行了较量。
Act Three, Outing.
第三幕，郊游。
An expose on the pro-Canadian bias and Peter Jennings' nightly newscast for ABC, and more.
揭露亲加拿大偏见和彼得·詹宁斯 (Peter Jennings) 为美国广播公司 (ABC) 做的晚间新闻广播等等。
Act Four, Who's Canadian?
第四幕，谁是加拿大人？
Two siblings separated, not at birth.
两个兄弟姐妹在出生时就分开了。
One gone to live in Winnipeg, one gone to live in Manhattan.
一位去了温尼伯，一位去了曼哈顿。
Their stories.
他们的故事。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, White Like Me.
第一幕，像我一样的白人。
As a 17-year-old, David Rakoff moved from Toronto, Ontario, to New York City.
17 岁时，David Rakoff 从安大略省多伦多搬到了纽约市。
He's been there now for half his life, works in publishing and as a writer and actor.
现在他已经在那里度过了半生，从事出版业、作家和演员的工作。
This American Life listeners may remember his story about portraying Sigmund Freud in the Christmas windows at Barney's a few months ago.
《美国生活》的听众可能还记得几个月前他在巴尼百货公司的圣诞橱窗里描绘西格蒙德·弗洛伊德的故事。
David Rakoff says that from the day that he arrived in New York City, he decided he was going to try to efface his Canadian-ness and pass for a local.
大卫·拉考夫 (David Rakoff) 说，从他抵达纽约市的那天起，他就决定要努力抹去自己的加拿大血统，冒充当地人。
My tactics were to adopt a certain kind of world-weary, jaded, anxious neuroticism.
我的策略是采取某种厌世、厌倦、焦虑的神经质。
And it was taken on as a cosmetic mantle at the beginning until such time as you simply can't pull the mask off your face.
一开始，它只是作为一种化妆外衣，直到你根本无法将面具从脸上撕下来。
Oh my god, it's stuck.
天哪，卡住了。
There you are years later, a jaded, affectless, neurotic, disenchanted, sad person.
多年后，你变成了一个疲惫、冷漠、神经质、失望、悲伤的人。
But that's fine.
但那很好。
Would you consciously not bring up the fact that were from Canada at any point, when you think back on those years?
当您回想起那些年时，您是否会在任何时候有意识地不提起来自加拿大的事实？
No. No, I would never consciously not bring it up.
不，不，我永远不会有意识地不提起它。
I would occasionally consciously bring it up because it would-- amazingly enough-- make me more exotic.
我偶尔会有意识地提起它，因为它会让——令人惊讶的是——让我变得更有异国情调。
Because let's face it, in New York City, I'm a Jewish guy with dark hair who works in publishing with a gift for the gab.
因为让我们面对现实吧，在纽约，我是一个黑头发的犹太人，在出版业工作，具有能说会道的天赋。
I meet myself coming and going 12 to 14 times an hour.
我每小时来来去去 12 到 14 次。
So occasionally, I'll need that little bit of spice.
所以有时候，我会需要一点点香料。
And what's more spicy than being Canadian?
还有什么比成为加拿大人更令人兴奋的呢？
I ask you.
我问你。
I'm told that Canadians tend to know who else is Canadian who's famous.
有人告诉我，加拿大人往往知道还有谁是加拿大名人。
All the time.
一直以来。
Everything.
一切。
And that, to me, is chemical.
对我来说，这是化学的。
You know, the easy ones.
你知道，简单的。
Glenn Ford, Kate Nelligan, Hume Cronyn, Cowboy Junkies, Monty Hall--
格伦·福特、凯特·内利根、休姆·克罗宁、牛仔迷、蒙蒂·霍尔——
Monty Hall?
蒙蒂·霍尔？
Wait, Monty Hall?
等等，蒙蒂霍尔？
The host of Let's Make a Deal ?
《我们来做个交易》的主持人？
Yeah.
是的。
Live and learn, huh?
一边生活一边学习，对吧？
Ira Glass Who could be more American than the host of Let's Make a Deal ?
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 谁能比《让我们做个交易》的主持人更加美国化？
Even the name Let's Make a Deal --
甚至连“让我们做个交易”这个名字——
And yet, remember, Monty only facilitated the deals.
然而，请记住，蒙蒂只是促进了交易。
[LAUGHS] And, I guess, that name, Monty.
[笑]我想，这个名字，蒙蒂。
Glenn Ford, John Kenneth Galbraith.
格伦·福特，约翰·肯尼思·加尔布雷思。
But here's the thing about knowing who's Canadian.
但这是关于了解谁是加拿大人的事情。
There is a woman named Shania Twain.
有一个女人，名叫仙妮亚·唐恩。
She is Canadian.
她是加拿大人。
I know that she's Canadian.
我知道她是加拿大人。
I do not know who the hell Shania Twain is.
我不知道仙妮亚·唐恩到底是谁。
I don't know what she does.
我不知道她在做什么。
And yet, for some reason, I know that she's famous in America and that she's Canadian.
然而，出于某种原因，我知道她在美国很有名，而且她是加拿大人。
How did this come up?
这是怎么想到的？
Did your parents talk to you about it?
你父母有跟你谈过这件事吗？
I literally don't know.
我真的不知道。
I feel there's a chip in my head or something because I simply happen to know that.
我觉得我脑子里有一个芯片什么的，因为我只是碰巧知道这一点。
Here's the other thing-- Borje Salming?
这是另一件事——Borje Salming？
Not --
不——
Who?
谁？
David Rakoff Borje Salming.
大卫·拉考夫·博尔杰·萨尔明。
Hockey player.
曲棍球运动员。
Not Canadian.
不是加拿大人。
Daryl Sittler?
达里尔·西特勒？
Yes, Canadian.
是的，加拿大人。
Ira, I have never been to a hockey game in my entire life.
艾拉，我这辈子从来没有看过曲棍球比赛。
How do these things enter my brain?
这些东西是如何进入我的大脑的？
I don't even think so, you know?
我什至不这么认为，你知道吗？
I just think it comes in off the breeze or in a cold front.
我只是认为它来自微风或冷锋。
And I know.
我知道。
I just know in my heart who's Canadian.
我心里清楚谁是加拿大人。
It's so strange.
太奇怪了。
And of course, the arm on your space shuttle.
当然，还有航天飞机上的手臂。
I'm sorry?
对不起？
David Rakoff The arm on your space shuttle for making interstellar repairs.
大卫·拉科夫 航天飞机上用于进行星际维修的手臂。
In Canada, the space shuttle is referred to as--
在加拿大，航天飞机被称为——
The American space shuttle with its Canadian-built arm.
美国航天飞机及其加拿大制造的手臂。
Never any other way, as in "The American space shuttle with its Canadian-built arm blew up today."
没有其他办法，就像“带有加拿大制造的手臂的美国航天飞机今天爆炸了”。
No, well, I was actually here at the time, but the Canadian-built arm gets a lot of airplay.
不，好吧，我当时实际上就在这里，但是加拿大制造的手臂得到了很多播放。
Not down here, huh?
不在这里，是吗？
In fact, if you were to ask most Canadians, "What do you think the space shuttle is for?" they'd say, "Oh, to go up and move stuff around in space with an arm."
事实上，如果你问大多数加拿大人，“你认为航天飞机是用来做什么的？”他们会说，“哦，用手臂在太空中移动东西。”
And so, when a Canadian finds out that some figure is Canadian, what happens in their heart?
那么，当一个加拿大人发现某个人物是加拿大人时，他们的心里会发生什么变化呢？
Oh, well, your heart does a little bit of a-- a certain special Canadian's chamber opens up and enfolds that name and you keep it.
哦，好吧，你的心做了一点——某个特殊的加拿大人的房间打开并包围了那个名字，你保留了它。
Or if you mention a famous Canadian in conversation to a Canadian without acknowledging it, there's a vague flicker over their eyes like the shadow of an angel's wing passing, and then the conversation will go on and on.
或者，如果你在与加拿大人交谈时提到一位著名的加拿大人，但没有承认，他们的眼睛里就会有一种模糊的闪烁，就像天使翅膀的影子掠过，然后谈话就会继续下去。
And then, just as an afterthought, they'll say, well, you know, he's Canadian, by the way.
然后，事后他们会说，嗯，你知道，顺便说一句，他是加拿大人。
Of course, it's all you've been waiting to say the entire conversation.
当然，这就是您一直在等待说出整个对话的全部内容。
This is in a conversation with a Canadian or a non-Canadian?
这是与加拿大人还是非加拿大人的对话？
If a non-Canadian says to you, and you are a Canadian.
如果一个非加拿大人对你说，你就是加拿大人。
But you can do it with a Canadian too.
但你也可以和加拿大人一起做。
But with a non-Canadian, like if you and I were talking, and I would bring up--
但对于一个非加拿大人，就像你和我谈话时，我会提到——
Monty Hall.
蒙蒂·霍尔。
Ira Glass --Monty Hall, which happens so often.
艾拉·格拉斯——蒙蒂·霍尔，这种事经常发生。
Why, just the other day when we were talking about what was in your purse.
哎呀，就在前几天我们正在谈论你钱包里的东西时。
Remember, I asked you?
还记得我问过你吗？
And I would be compelled by DNA--
我会被 DNA 所吸引——
You would actually say at some point, he's Canadian?
你实际上会在某个时候说，他是加拿大人？
Not even at some point, Ira.
甚至在某些时候也不会，艾拉。
Let's try it.
我们来试试吧。
Go on, you start.
继续吧，你开始了。
All right.
好的。
So anyway, I was in the car on my way to work, and that song from Bachman-Turner Overdrive came on.
不管怎样，我在上班路上的车里，响起了 Bachman-Turner Overdrive 的那首歌。
They're Canadian.
他们是加拿大人。
That's how I do it.
我就是这么做的。
I don't even wait.
我什至不等。
I don't even wait.
我什至不等。
Bachman-Turner Overdrive.
巴赫曼-特纳超速。
They're Canadian.
他们是加拿大人。
And then I'll tell you, "Taking Care of Business," they wrote that.
然后我会告诉你，“照顾好生意”，他们写道。
They're Canadian.
他们是加拿大人。
I don't even bother waiting.
我什至懒得等待。
Very effective.
非常有效。
And it always also begs the question, which is, oh, are you Canadian?
它也总是引出一个问题，那就是，哦，你是加拿大人吗？
Well, of course they'd ask that.
嗯，他们当然会这么问。
It's a little unbalanced if one wasn't.
如果没有的话就有点不平衡了。
Don't you think that would be somewhat strange behavior?
你不觉得这样的行为有点奇怪吗？
I have to say here that as somebody who grew up as a Jew in suburban Baltimore, this game of Who's a Canadian, it was very, very familiar.
我不得不在这里说，作为一个在巴尔的摩郊区长大的犹太人，这个“谁是加拿大人”的游戏非常非常熟悉。
Every adult I knew in Baltimore played a very similar game.
我在巴尔的摩认识的每个成年人都玩过非常相似的游戏。
See now, among my parents' generation, there was the game of Who's a Jew?
现在看，在我父母那一代人中，有一个游戏“谁是犹太人？”
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I'm somewhat familiar with that game.
我对这个游戏有点熟悉。
So can you imagine what the double triumph is if someone's a Canadian Jew?
那么你能想象如果某人是加拿大犹太人的话，双重胜利是什么？
Lorne Greene.
洛恩·格林。
You fairly cannot imagine anyone more heroic than Lorne Greene.
你很难想象还有谁比洛恩·格林更英勇。
He's a Canadian.
他是加拿大人。
Do you remember this coming up in your household?
您还记得您家里出现过这种情况吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
He's Canadian, and Jewish too.
他是加拿大人，也是犹太人。
Who's a Jew?
谁是犹太人？
David Rakoff And imagine how crestfallen everybody was when they found out that Andrea Martin of Second City TV is not just not Jewish, she's Armenian.
大卫·拉考夫 想象一下，当每个人发现第二城电视台的安德里亚·马丁不仅不是犹太人，而且是亚美尼亚人时，他们有多么沮丧。
But she's from Maine.
但她来自缅因州。
She just lived in Canada.
她刚刚住在加拿大。
And then everybody shrugs and says, well, Armenians, they're very similar.
然后每个人都耸耸肩说，好吧，亚美尼亚人，他们非常相似。
And Maine, it's very close.
缅因州非常接近。
And she lived here for so long.
而且她在这里住了那么久。
When you meet a Canadian, do you have certain prejudices about them once you learn that they are Canadian?
当你遇到加拿大人时，当你得知他们是加拿大人时，你是否会对他们产生某些偏见？
Yes, I worry that they're going to be really literal and take everything that I say totally seriously-- even the throwaway remarks-- and then I'm going to have to backtrack and explain myself.
是的，我担心他们会非常认真地对待我所说的一切——甚至是一次性的言论——然后我将不得不回溯并解释自己。
I worry that they're going to blow my cover.
我担心他们会揭穿我的身份。
As a Canadian?
作为加拿大人？
David Rakoff As a Canadian masquerading as an urban sophisticate.
大卫·拉科夫 (David Rakoff) 一个伪装成都市老练的加拿大人。
How would they do that in your fantasy of this?
在你的幻想中他们会怎么做？
They would suddenly say, "You're not a sophisticated New Yorker.
他们会突然说：“你不是一个成熟的纽约人。
You're just nothing but a tobogganing Canadian." And then I always feel that I have to turn in my liquor supply and my books and return home.
你只不过是一个玩平底雪橇的加拿大人。”然后我总觉得我必须交出我的酒和书本然后回家。
And then, in fact, all the quips that I made all over the years turn out to actually have been made up by someone else, even though I didn't know it.
事实上，我这些年来所说的俏皮话其实都是别人编出来的，尽管我自己并不知道。
So if you know that there's another Canadian in the room, do you feel like you've been outed in some way, and that you'll be seen as less than the sophisticate that you are?
因此，如果您知道房间里还有另一个加拿大人，您是否会觉得自己在某种程度上被出卖了，并且会被认为不如自己那么老练？
Briefly.
简要地。
Briefly.
简要地。
And then, another kind of reserve kicks in.
然后，另一种储备开始发挥作用。
And one thinks, well, everybody's got to come from somewhere, don't they?
人们会想，好吧，每个人都必须来自某个地方，不是吗？
And, in fact, it's a little bit even more vindicating because you have that whole sort of, not bad for a boy from Canada, sort of feeling.
事实上，这更有说服力，因为你有一种对来自加拿大的男孩来说还不错的感觉。
David Rakoff, immigrant.
大卫·拉考夫，移民。
He's lived in the United States for 15 years.
他在美国生活了 15 年。
When you first came to this country, there must've been differences between the two cultures that struck you.
当你第一次来到这个国家时，两种文化之间的差异一定给你留下了深刻的印象。
There was an adorable-- I remember going down to the deli or something one night when I was a freshman in college and looking into the dairy case and seeing what you call those individually wrapped slices of processed cheese food.
有一个可爱的——我记得当我还是大学一年级新生的时候，有一天晚上我去熟食店之类的地方，看着乳制品箱，看到了你所谓的那些单独包装的加工奶酪食品片。
American cheese.
美国奶酪。
David Rakoff Yes.
大卫·拉考夫 是的。
And we call it Canadian cheese.
我们称之为加拿大奶酪。
And I, of course, thought, oh, isn't that cute.
当然，我想，哦，那不是很可爱吗？
They're trying to take credit for Canadian cheese.
他们试图将加拿大奶酪的功劳据为己有。
And now, of course, my feeling is that we should be calling it American cheese, and you guys should be calling it Canadian cheese.
当然，现在我的感觉是我们应该称其为美国奶酪，而你们应该称其为加拿大奶酪。
It seems like something one should be throwing the blame right across the 49th parallel, whatever side you're on.
似乎有人应该把责任扔到北纬 49 度线对面，无论你站在哪一边。
But I thought, oh, that's adorable.
但我想，哦，那太可爱了。
So wait, so in Canada, that kind of American cheese, that is called-
等等，在加拿大，那种美国奶酪，叫做——
Canadian singles, yes.
加拿大单身人士，是的。
Ira Glass Canadian singles sounds like the name of some bad import movie.
艾拉·格拉斯加拿大单曲听起来像是一部糟糕的进口电影的名字。
Doesn't it just?
不就是吗？
Ira Glass You know, the Canadian Cameron Crowe would write Canadian Singles , and then it would appear on cable here late at night.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你知道，加拿大人卡梅伦·克罗（Cameron Crowe）会写《加拿大单曲》（Canadian Singles），然后它会在深夜出现在有线电视上。
They all work in a coffeehouse in Guelph, Ontario.
他们都在安大略省圭尔夫市的一家咖啡馆工作。
Some of them are majoring in animal husbandry.
其中一些人主修畜牧业。
David Rakoff discusses things Canadian and things American in his new book, Fraud.
大卫·拉科夫（David Rakoff）在他的新书《欺诈》中讨论了加拿大和美国的事物。
[MUSIC--"TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS" BY BACHMAN-TURNER OVERDRIVE]
[音乐——BACHMAN-Turner OVERDRIVE 的《照顾生意》]
Act Two, The World's Most Perfect Pneumatic Vacuum.
第二幕，世界上最完美的气动真空吸尘器。
Canadians.
加拿大人。
They get our TV shows, eat the same breakfast cereals, drive the same cars.
他们看我们的电视节目，吃同样的早餐麦片，开同样的汽车。
They look like us, they speak the same language-- some of them, anyway.
他们看起来像我们，说着同样的语言——无论如何，他们中的一些人。
So are they us?
那么他们是我们吗？
Well, the perfect person to discuss that question with is Ian Brown.
嗯，讨论这个问题的最佳人选是伊恩·布朗。
For years, he was the host of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's program Sunday Morning .
多年来，他一直担任加拿大广播公司节目《星期日早晨》的主持人。
Ian Brown is the perfect person to discuss the differences between Canadian and American culture, not only because he feels his Canadian-ness so deeply, but because he lived in the United States for years.
伊恩·布朗（Ian Brown）是讨论加拿大和美国文化差异的最佳人选，不仅因为他深深地感受到了自己的加拿大特质，而且因为他在美国生活了多年。
And he loves Americans enough that he married one.
他非常爱美国人，以至于娶了一位美国人。
He spoke with our contributing editor, Sarah Vowell, back when he was still hosting Sunday Morning .
当他还在主持《周日早间》时，他与我们的特约编辑莎拉·沃威尔进行了交谈。
Like most Americans, I don't particularly care about Canada.
和大多数美国人一样，我并不特别关心加拿大。
But every week, I spend three solid hours thinking about goings-on in Moose Jaw and Manitoba.
但每周我都会花整整三个小时思考穆斯乔和马尼托巴省发生的事情。
The reason is this.
原因是这样的。
Even though I don't care about Canada, I do care about radio, passionately.
尽管我不关心加拿大，但我确实热衷于广播。
And my favorite radio program-- aside from this one, of course-- is Sunday Morning .
我最喜欢的广播节目——当然除了这个——是《星期日早晨》。
And the most moving segment of the show is usually host Ian Brown's personal essay at the end.
而节目中最动人的部分通常是主持人伊恩·布朗最后的个人文章。
One week it's about hockey versus basketball, the next about his opposition to a separate Quebec.
一周是关于曲棍球与篮球的比赛，下一周是关于他反对独立魁北克的比赛。
But what it's really about is the idea of nation.
但它真正涉及的是民族观念。
Listening to him ask questions of his country and his place in it, I get to ask those questions of mine.
听他问有关他的国家和他在其中的地位的问题，我也开始问我自己的问题。
It's not something we tend to dwell on in American broadcasting.
这不是我们在美国广播中经常关注的话题。
But Brown says that in Canada, it happens all the time.
但布朗说，在加拿大，这种情况经常发生。
And because America's cultural presence is so huge and so near, Canadian self-reflection must, by definition, involve thinking about living next door to such a noisy neighbor.
由于美国的文化存在如此巨大且如此接近，根据定义，加拿大人的自我反思必须包括考虑住在如此喧闹的邻居的隔壁。
I think we've developed the same attitudes that, say, the Pakistanis have towards India or, say, the border the Poles have to Russia.
我认为我们已经形成了与巴基斯坦人对印度或波兰人对俄罗斯边界相同的态度。
American culture somehow seizes you.
美国文化不知何故抓住了你。
But at the same time, we're not part of American culture.
但与此同时，我们不是美国文化的一部分。
In fact, for years, Canadians have defined themselves-- or many Canadians have defined themselves-- as being, we're Canadian because we're not American.
事实上，多年来，加拿大人已经将自己定义为——或者许多加拿大人已经将自己定义为——我们是加拿大人，因为我们不是美国人。
It's not a very good definition, but it's certainly one that a lot of people--
这不是一个很好的定义，但肯定是很多人——
So when you're here without the protection of the border--
所以当你在这里没有边境保护时——
Well, exactly.
嗯，确实如此。
Sarah Vowell --are you swallowed?
莎拉·沃威尔——你被吞下去了吗？
It's flipped around.
已经翻过来了
You're always slightly afraid and slightly amazed and slightly aware that you're swirling in some huge vortex that might just suck you down.
你总是有点害怕，有点惊讶，并且有点意识到你正在一个巨大的漩涡中旋转，它可能会把你吸下去。
At the same time, I should say that-- and I don't know whether this is a widely shared view-- but one of the reasons why Canadians are so obsessed with America is that it is such an energetic culture.
与此同时，我应该说——我不知道这是否是一个广泛认同的观点——但加拿大人如此痴迷美国的原因之一是它是一种充满活力的文化。
It's so important in the world.
这在世界上是如此重要。
It is the great empire of the 20th century-- has been.
它是20世纪的伟大帝国——一直都是。
And you can't avoid that.
你无法避免这一点。
Well, even before the 20th century-- I was thinking about this when I was looking at this Canadian history book over the weekend-- and how almost embarrassingly gradual your path to independence seemed, to me, And I was wondering how in the world you could teach schoolchildren about this really complicated, subtle history in a way that would be halfway inspiring.
好吧，甚至在 20 世纪之前——我周末在看这本加拿大历史书时就想到了这一点——对我来说，你走向独立的道路似乎是多么令人尴尬地渐进，我想知道你到底如何才能以一种半鼓舞人心的方式向学童们传授这段非常复杂、微妙的历史。
Well, you've struck on quite an important point there.
嗯，你已经说到了非常重要的一点。
It often isn't inspiring because it is so gradual.
它通常不会鼓舞人心，因为它是如此渐进。
We've been talking about the constitution in this country.
我们一直在谈论这个国家的宪法。
To my direct knowledge-- I've been following it since I was about-- well, the flag debate.
据我所知——自从我——嗯，关于旗帜的辩论以来，我一直在关注它。
I was about 11, I guess.
我猜我大概11岁吧。
The American flag debate?
美国国旗辩论？
Ian Brown No, the Canadian flag debate, when we finally got a flag of our own.
伊恩·布朗 不，加拿大国旗辩论，当我们终于有了自己的国旗时。
And what year was that?
那是哪一年？
Ian Brown Oh, that was 1965.
伊恩·布朗哦，那是 1965 年。
Fairly late.
相当晚了。
Ian Brown Oh yeah, exactly, 100 years after the Confederation.
伊恩·布朗：哦，是的，没错，联邦成立 100 年后。
Which was also fairly late, it seems to me.
在我看来，这也相当晚了。
Which was also fairly late.
这也相当晚了。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
We're gradualists.
我们是渐进主义者。
We don't like to do anything extreme.
我们不喜欢做任何极端的事情。
And Margaret Atwood says that this is because it's so cold here and that you have to be so careful.
玛格丽特·阿特伍德说，这是因为这里太冷了，所以你必须要小心。
You'd like to take your clothes off and go running outside, but it's so cold most of the time that you keep at least some of your clothes on, even though you're pretending to be naked.
你很想脱掉衣服跑到外面去，但大多数时候天气都很冷，所以你至少要穿上一些衣服，即使你假装赤身裸体。
I was thinking about this the other day.
前几天我正在思考这个问题。
And I was engaged in a little us-versus-them debate with a Canadian friend.
我和一位加拿大朋友进行了一场“我们与他们”的辩论。
And I was talking about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and words and phrases like "We, the people" and "life, liberty, pursuit of happiness," and how these things have had this enormous bearing on me, certainly as a writer, and being able to say what I think, and that it's codified within these governmental structures.
我谈论的是《独立宣言》和《宪法》，以及诸如“我们，人民”和“生命、自由、追求幸福”之类的词语和短语，以及这些事情如何对我产生巨大的影响，当然作为一名作家，能够说出我的想法，并且它被编入这些政府结构中。
And at one point, I just said, "what's your sound bite?" And he didn't have one.
有一次，我只是说：“你的原声摘要是什么？”而他却没有。
Is there a sound bite of Canadian-ness?
有没有一点加拿大特色？
Well, I always liked "the True North, strong and free" myself.
嗯，我自己一直很喜欢“正北，坚强，自由”。
That's always appealed to me.
这一直吸引着我。
And it's probably imported from somewhere.
它可能是从某个地方进口的。
But that's always the one I like.
但这始终是我喜欢的。
And I think it's Voltaire's description of "a few acres of snow." I think he said that.
我认为这是伏尔泰对“几英亩的雪”的描述。我想他是这么说的。
I always liked that image.
我一直很喜欢那个形象。
"A few acres of snow." Doesn't that just make you want to go out and change the world?
“几英亩的雪。”这难道不会让你想要走出去改变世界吗？
No, what it does is it reminds you that this country-- far more than yours-- is a physical country.
不，它的作用是提醒你，这个国家——远远超过你的国家——是一个实体国家。
You folks have all these ideas-- or so-called ideas-- Manifest Destiny, the pursuit of happiness-- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
你们拥有所有这些想法——或者所谓的想法——天命、对幸福的追求——生命、自由和对幸福的追求。
But they're ideas.
但它们只是想法。
And physically, the country doesn't really exist.
从物理上看，这个国家并不真正存在。
I was always amazed that more Americans aren't interested in politics down there.
我总是感到惊讶的是，越来越多的美国人对那里的政治不感兴趣。
Your voting participation rate is absolutely abysmal.
你的投票参与率绝对是糟糕透顶。
And I think it's because people can't conceive of the country in any way.
我认为这是因为人们无法以任何方式想象这个国家。
It's like an amassing together of individualisms.
这就像个人主义的聚集。
But after a while, there's so many individualisms that there's nothing collective there.
但过了一段时间，个人主义太多了，集体主义就消失了。
In some ways, Canada has exactly the opposite problem, that we've needed to be collective.
在某些方面，加拿大面临着完全相反的问题，我们需要团结起来。
And for so long, it's been impossible to be an individualist and still be a Canadian.
长期以来，既是个人主义者又是加拿大人是不可能的。
But it has to do with how youthful the country is.
但这与这个国家的年轻程度有关。
I've been in the wilderness quite a bit in both Canada and the United States.
我在加拿大和美国的荒野中呆过很长时间。
And I always notice this incredible difference.
我总是注意到这种令人难以置信的差异。
In Canada, if I go-- I don't know-- 100 hundred miles north of Winnipeg, there are places where you go out into the bush, you go out into the wilderness, and you really do have this sense that you may very well be the first person to be standing there.
在加拿大，如果我去——我不知道——温尼伯以北 10000 英里，有些地方你走进灌木丛，走进荒野，你确实有这样的感觉，你很可能是第一个站在那里的人。
That this is really virgin territory and you're standing there.
这确实是处女地，而你就站在那里。
And that's an incredible feeling, because--
那是一种令人难以置信的感觉，因为——
But I'm from Montana.
但我来自蒙大拿州。
We have that there too.
我们那里也有。
But you don't have it the same way.
但你没有以同样的方式拥有它。
I've been in Montana.
我去过蒙大拿州。
I've been on the top of the Teton Mountains and all the rest.
我去过提顿山脉的山顶以及其他所有地方。
And you get up there, and the sensation you have in the American wilderness is, well, this is incredible because I'm standing where so many people have gone before.
当你到达那里时，你在美国荒野中的感觉是，嗯，这太不可思议了，因为我正站在很多人以前去过的地方。
Lewis and Clark were here, blah, blah, blah, all these people.
刘易斯和克拉克都在这里，等等，等等，所有这些人。
And I'm standing in their footsteps, and that is the great thing.
我正在追随他们的脚步，这是一件伟大的事情。
Whereas in Canada, it's the exact opposite.
而在加拿大，情况恰恰相反。
No one was here.
没有人在这里。
I'm the first person.
我是第一个人。
And it has real consequences.
它产生了实际的后果。
In America, the great thing you have is your history and your tradition.
在美国，最伟大的事情就是你的历史和传统。
The hard thing in America these days it seems to me looking at it from afar, is that it's so hard to think, well, I can do something new.
在我看来，如今美国最困难的事情是，很难思考，好吧，我可以做一些新的事情。
We can break out of the box we're in.
我们可以打破我们所处的框框。
Look at something like campaign reform.
看看竞选改革之类的事情。
Nobody thinks you can ever fix it, so why the heck try?
没有人认为你可以解决它，那为什么还要尝试呢？
Whereas in Canada, we have exactly the opposite problem.
而在加拿大，我们面临着完全相反的问题。
We all think, well, I couldn't possibly do this because no one's ever been here or done this before.
我们都认为，好吧，我不可能这样做，因为以前没有人来过这里或这样做过。
It really is like the invert of--
这真的就像是——
Well, you're right, except the very idea of America is that even though tons of people have been there, done that, the idea of America is that you don't care.
嗯，你是对的，除了美国的理念是，尽管有很多人已经在那里做了这些事，但美国的理念是你不在乎。
You just keep going.
你就继续吧。
Yeah, but you've got to be more and more outlandish, it seems to us.
是的，但在我们看来，你必须变得越来越古怪。
The fact that Jerry Springer comes from your country is--
杰里·斯普林格来自你们国家的事实是——
Well, I'm sorry, but how does he fit into Manifest Destiny?
好吧，我很抱歉，但是他如何融入昭昭命运？
If that's the end result of it--
如果这就是最终的结果——
Well, we have to take the agony with the ecstasy.
好吧，我们必须在狂喜中承受痛苦。
Well, that's what makes your country so interesting.
嗯，这就是你们的国家如此有趣的原因。
And I think that's why people stereotype Canada and say it's boring.
我认为这就是为什么人们对加拿大有刻板印象并说它很无聊。
They think there is no individual spirit here.
他们认为这里没有个人精神。
Wrongly, of course, but they do think that.
当然这是错误的，但他们确实这么认为。
And we think all you've got is yakking.
我们认为你只会叫嚷。
Well, that's interesting for someone who yaks for a living to say.
嗯，对于一个以牦牛为生的人来说，这句话很有趣。
Admittedly.
诚然。
Well, I have an American wife, remember.
好吧，记住，我有一个美国妻子。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Well, we won't hold that against you.
好吧，我们不会反对你。
No, but the Canadians hold it against her.
不，但加拿大人反对她。
She often complains.
她经常抱怨。
She says there is a distinct anti-American feeling here.
她说这里有一种明显的反美情绪。
And she's a lovely person, and people like her.
她是一个可爱的人，人们喜欢她。
But she says people are always saying at parties, oh, that's so American, when someone talks about somebody being crass or somebody being particularly ambitious or particularly in your face.
但她说，在聚会上，当有人谈论某人粗鲁或某人特别雄心勃勃或特别当着你的面时，人们总是说，哦，这太美国了。
They say, oh, that's so American.
他们说，哦，这太美国了。
Then they remember she's American and they say, oh, sorry, Johanna, not you.
然后他们记起她是美国人，他们说，哦，对不起，约翰娜，不是你。
You're different.
你不一样。
And she thinks it's quite widespread.
她认为这种现象相当普遍。
And I will say that as a Canadian, I never noticed anything like that down in America.
我想说的是，作为一名加拿大人，我在美国从未注意到类似的事情。
It is a very, very, very tolerant place until you stand up and say, well, Canadians are different.
这是一个非常、非常、非常宽容的地方，直到你站起来说，好吧，加拿大人是不同的。
And then they say, oh, no you're not.
然后他们说，哦，不，你不是。
You're exactly the same.
你完全一样。
You like Disney too, don't you?
你也喜欢迪士尼，不是吗？
And we say, well, yeah we do, but not all the time.
我们说，是的，我们这样做，但并非总是如此。
Can you recall one of those particular moments where you felt like an alien or you felt like an American did or said something that seemed completely foreign to you?
你能回忆起那些让你感觉自己像个外星人或者美国人做了或说了一些对你来说完全陌生的事情的特殊时刻吗？
I was walking along the boardwalk of Manhattan Beach in California.
我正沿着加利福尼亚州曼哈顿海滩的木板路行走。
Manhattan Beach is right on the water, and there's this beautiful-- I was walking along, and I was having an argument with my wife.
曼哈顿海滩就在水面上，那儿很美——我一边走，一边和我妻子吵架。
Not a loud argument, but an argument.
不是大声争论，而是争论。
A debate, I guess you could call it.
我想你可以称之为辩论。
And we were debating the merits of speaking in front of our children-- in front of my daughter-- and having discussions as if she wasn't there.
我们正在讨论在我们的孩子面前（在我女儿面前）讲话的优点，并进行讨论，就好像她不在场一样。
And as we were walking along, some guy on rollerblades went by and looked at us.
当我们走着的时候，一个穿着旱冰鞋的家伙走过来看着我们。
And then he turned around, he came back up to me, and he said, "Man, I want to tell you, man, it, like, really lays some heavy lumber"-- I don't think he said lumber, but-- "it lays some heavy groove on your kids, man, to be fighting in front of them." And I said, "Well, first of all, we weren't fighting.
然后他转过身来，回到我身边，他说，“伙计，我想告诉你，伙计，它确实放置了一些沉重的木材”——我不认为他说的是木材，但是——“它给你的孩子们带来了一些沉重的负担，伙计，在他们面前打架。”我说：“好吧，首先，我们没有吵架。
We were having a debate.
我们正在辩论。
And B, it's none of your business.
B，这不关你的事。
Get out of my face." That would never happen.
从我面前滚出去。”那永远不会发生。
It's not jerks.
这不是混蛋。
I mean, he probably had a point.
我的意思是，他可能说得有道理。
But no Canadian that I have ever encountered would ever deign to even come close to telling you how-- especially publicly.
但我所遇到的加拿大人都不会屈尊告诉你如何做——尤其是在公开场合。
Especially publicly.
尤其是公开场合。
Well, it seems like the things that you've been bringing up-- these differences-- are rather confined to the sphere of minutiae.
嗯，看来你一直在提出的事情——这些差异——相当局限于细节领域。
I mean, are the two cultures really separate?
我的意思是，这两种文化真的不同吗？
Can you separate them?
你能把它们分开吗？
I understand your question, and there are so many similarities that many Canadians ask much the same question.
我理解你的问题，而且有很多相似之处，以至于许多加拿大人都会问同样的问题。
We live in a global world, it's a global economy, we're all the same, nationalism is for jerks.
我们生活在一个全球化的世界，这是一个全球经济，我们都是一样的，民族主义是混蛋的专利。
But civically, we're very different.
但在公民方面，我们非常不同。
We have a parliamentary democracy here.
我们这里实行议会民主制。
There are at least two, and possibly more, parties involved in every single debate.
每场辩论都至少有两个，甚至可能更多的政党参与。
Everything is voted on.
一切都是投票决定的。
We elect our representatives directly to the House of Commons.
我们直接选举下议院代表。
Our prime minister is chosen from amongst them, generally speaking.
一般来说，我们的总理是从他们当中选出的。
That's not the case in America.
美国的情况并非如此。
You have this complicated checks and balances system, which seems to us to have no direct representation at all.
你们有这个复杂的制衡系统，在我们看来，它根本没有直接的代表。
And judging from the fractions in which you vote, a lot of Americans feel the same way, too.
从你投票的比例来看，很多美国人也有同样的感觉。
Whereas in Canada, voter participation is pretty high.
而在加拿大，选民参与度相当高。
But besides these political differences, how-- for instance, we've been having these conversations around here in planning this show where someone says, Neil Young-- Canadian.
但除了这些政治分歧之外，例如，我们在策划这个节目时一直在这里进行这些对话，有人说，尼尔·杨——加拿大人。
Everyone says, he's Canadian?
大家都说他是加拿大人？
Or Mike Myers or Pamela Anderson Lee.
或者迈克·迈尔斯或帕梅拉·安德森·李。
You know, the blond bimbo babe of all time-- Canadian.
你知道，有史以来的金发碧眼宝贝——加拿大人。
Canadian, yeah.
加拿大人，是的。
It always ends the same way.
事情总是以同样的方式结束。
And it seems like despite these small, little differences, or even huge political ones, it's really hard to tell an American and a Canadian apart.
尽管存在这些微小的差异，甚至巨大的政治差异，但似乎很难区分美国人和加拿大人。
Well, it depends how you measure them, though.
好吧，但这取决于你如何衡量它们。
Neil Armstrong is a great-- Neil Armstrong.
尼尔·阿姆斯特朗是一位伟大的人物——尼尔·阿姆斯特朗。
He was American, right?
他是美国人，对吧？
He's the first guy who ever-- and he's American.
他是第一个——而且他是美国人。
It's incredible!
太不可思议了！
No, Neil Young-- he's a brilliant songwriter and musician, so he hits the universal in that way.
不，尼尔·杨——他是一位出色的词曲作者和音乐家，所以他以这种方式打动了全世界。
Yeah, but he wrote my favorite song, "Keep on Rockin' in the Free World," which is, to me, maybe one of the most American songs.
是的，但他写了我最喜欢的歌曲“在自由世界中继续摇滚”，对我来说，这可能是最美国化的歌曲之一。
It has this incredible beat, it rocks, it's a condemnation specifically of the Bush administration, but it's also about hope and imagination as well as Styrofoam and the ozone layer.
它有着令人难以置信的节拍，它震撼人心，这是对布什政府的特别谴责，但它也关乎希望和想象力，以及聚苯乙烯泡沫塑料和臭氧层。
To me, it's an American song.
对我来说，这是一首美国歌曲。
Well, that's, I think, you defining the song.
嗯，我想，这就是你对这首歌的定义。
It's not Neil defining the song.
这不是尼尔定义这首歌的。
One of my favorite songs of his begins, "There is a town in North Ontario." I'd say that's the emblematic Neil Young song.
我最喜欢的他的歌曲之一开头是“北安大略有一个小镇”。我想说这是尼尔·杨的标志性歌曲。
And to me, he's hugely Canadian.
对我来说，他是一个十足的加拿大人。
Not only is he hugely Canadian because he writes the songs he does, because so many of them have a northern, isolated feel to them, because they are about strong emotion expressed quietly and expressed in a quiet vessel but also because his dad was a sportswriter for The Globe and Mail who everybody read.
他是一个巨大的加拿大人，不仅因为他写的歌曲，因为其中很多歌曲都有北方、孤立的感觉，因为它们讲述了在安静的容器中悄悄表达的强烈情感，还因为他的父亲是《环球邮报》的体育撰稿人，每个人都读。
So I can't separate him out.
所以我无法把他分开。
OK, what about Pamela Anderson Lee, then?
好吧，那么帕梅拉·安德森·李呢？
Well, as I say, we're talking about the universal here, aren't we?
好吧，正如我所说，我们在这里谈论的是普遍性，不是吗？
You know what they say.
你知道他们说什么。
If you want to sell something to everybody, make sure it has a large bust line.
如果你想把某样东西卖给每个人，请确保它有一个大的胸围线。
So she feels that--
所以她觉得——
They say that?
他们这么说？
Ian Brown Marketers sometimes say that.
伊恩·布朗（Ian Brown）营销人员有时会这么说。
What is she?
她是什么？
She's like the most universally pneumatic vacuum in the world.
她就像世界上最通用的气动真空吸尘器。
So it's true.
所以这是真的。
That doesn't feel particularly Canadian.
这感觉并不特别加拿大。
And I understand why.
我明白为什么。
But she's not a serious example.
但她并不是一个严重的例子。
She's a woman--
她是个女人——
You only want the serious people?
你只想要严肃的人吗？
You only want to claim Neil Young?
你只想认领尼尔·杨？
I only want to talk about the ones that you can actually measure on a real basis.
我只想讨论那些可以实际测量的内容。
I don't know what Pamela Lee was before she was inflated.
我不知道帕梅拉·李在膨胀之前是什么样的。
But I'd be willing to say the old, uninflated Pamela Lee, before she became almost the quintessential Hollywood bombshell, I'll bet you could find Canadian stuff about her.
但我愿意说，在她几乎成为典型的好莱坞重磅炸弹之前，古老的、不膨胀的帕梅拉·李，我敢打赌你可以找到关于她的加拿大东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It would be an interesting story.
这将是一个有趣的故事。
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
And is the plastic surgery-- is it that part of her is now physically American?
整容手术是不是让她的身体现在变得像美国人了？
That is definitely American.
那绝对是美国的。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
That part of Pamela Lee is as American as American goes.
帕梅拉·李的这一部分就像美国人一样美国化。
I know that you're running out of time.
我知道你的时间不多了。
If not, you're out of time on your end.
如果没有，你就没有时间了。
But I just want to ask before we end, what was your favorite thing about being a Canadian living in the US when you did?
但在结束之前我想问一下，作为一名生活在美国的加拿大人，您最喜欢的事情是什么？
Americans.
美国人。
Americans.
美国人。
Because I work as a writer.
因为我是一名作家。
And in Canada, one of the biggest parts of the job is to draw people out, to make them comfortable, to get them talking, to get them to realize that it's just a conversation, that they can be themselves.
在加拿大，工作最重要的部分之一就是吸引人们出来，让他们感到舒服，让他们说话，让他们意识到这只是一次对话，他们可以做自己。
Americans are much less conscious of themselves.
美国人的自我意识要低得多。
They have much less self-consciousness.
他们的自我意识要少得多。
They're much more themselves in the world.
他们在这个世界上更像是他们自己。
And damn it if you don't like it.
如果你不喜欢它，那该死的。
I'm an American.
我是美国人。
I'm an individual.
我是个人。
And so you get all this incredible unconscious behavior happening right in front you.
所以你会看到所有这些令人难以置信的无意识行为就发生在你面前。
It's like having your own little stage show wherever you go.
无论您走到哪里，就像有自己的小舞台表演一样。
There's always some entertainment because there's always people being themselves.
总有一些娱乐，因为总有人做自己。
You don't get that as much in Canada.
在加拿大你不会得到那么多。
And I found it--
我发现了——
Do we amuse you?
我们逗你开心吗？
Ian Brown No, I don't mean in a condescending way.
伊恩·布朗：不，我的意思不是居高临下。
I'm glad I'm not of it, but I love having a seat ringside.
我很高兴我不属于其中，但我喜欢坐在场边。
Ian Brown with This American Life contributing editor Sarah Vowell, author of the book Take the Cannoli.
伊恩·布朗 (Ian Brown) 与《美国生活》(This American Life) 特约编辑莎拉·沃威尔 (Sarah Vowell) 是《Take the Cannoli》一书的作者。
[MUSIC - "ROCKIN' IN THE FREE WORLD" BY NEIL YOUNG]
[音乐 - 尼尔·杨的《摇滚自由世界》]
Coming up, the secret pro-Canadian messages in Peter Jennings' nightly newscast and more, in a minute, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，彼得·詹宁斯夜间新闻广播中的秘密亲加拿大信息以及更多内容即将推出。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Who's Canadian?
今天的节目《谁是加拿大人？》
Stories of the Canadians among us.
我们中间加拿大人的故事。
We've arrived at Act Three, Outing.
我们已经到了第三幕，郊游。
Well, the Canadian on the This American Life staff, Paul Tough, tells this story about watching the movie Wayne's World .
加拿大《This American Life》的工作人员 Paul Tough 讲述了这个观看电影《韦恩的世界》的故事。
There's a scene in Wayne's World where one of the stars and writers of the film, Mike Myers, and his buddies in the movie, allegedly portraying American teenagers, play street hockey.
《韦恩的世界》中有一个场景，电影的明星兼编剧之一迈克·梅尔斯和他在电影中的伙伴（据称描绘了美国青少年）打街头曲棍球。
They're doing what a lot of Canadians do and what I certainly did as a Canadian youth, which is they're playing on the street.
他们正在做许多加拿大人所做的事情，以及我作为加拿大年轻人所做的事情，那就是他们在街上玩耍。
They have nets set up on the street.
他们在街上设置了网。
They're playing with a tennis ball and hockey sticks.
他们正在玩网球和曲棍球棒。
And the goalies are all in equipment.
而且守门员都是装备齐全的。
And when a car comes down the street, the first person to see the car yells, car!
当一辆汽车驶过街道时，第一个看到汽车的人会大喊，汽车！
And everyone just stops the game and grabs the nets and gets to the side of the street.
每个人都停止比赛并抓住网并到达街边。
And then when the car passes, they say, game on!
然后当汽车经过时，他们说，比赛开始！
And they start playing again.
他们又开始玩了。
And when I saw that, it was like it was a secret message from Mike Myers to me and all the other Canadians who were watching this movie in the American audience, because those were exactly the two phrases that we would use.
当我看到这一点时，就好像这是迈克·梅尔斯向我和所有其他在美国观众中观看这部电影的加拿大人发出的秘密信息，因为这正是我们将使用的两个短语。
And no American knows those phrases.
没有美国人知道这些短语。
And Mike Myers, of course, growing up in [?
当然，迈克·迈尔斯是在[？
Otobaco, ?] the true Wayne's World, grew up playing road hockey just like I did.
Otobaco，？]真正的韦恩世界，像我一样从小就打公路曲棍球。
And the sad thing is, he couldn't set his movie in Canada because then it would've been a Canadian movie, even if it was exactly the same movie.
可悲的是，他无法将自己的电影设定在加拿大，因为那样的话，这将是一部加拿大电影，即使是同一部电影。
It was about Canadian culture, but in order to pass he had to set it in Illinois.
这是关于加拿大文化的，但为了通过，他必须把故事背景设定在伊利诺伊州。
Canadians, of course, are everywhere in the American media, from Lorne Michaels to Alanis Morissette.
当然，从洛恩·迈克尔斯到艾拉妮丝·莫莉塞特，加拿大人在美国媒体中随处可见。
Well, the question we ask in this act of our program is this.
好吧，我们在程序的这一行为中提出的问题是这样的。
When Canadians rise to the top of American pop culture, the American media machine, once they have America's attention, what do they decide to do with it?
当加拿大人上升到美国流行文化、美国媒体机器的顶端时，一旦他们引起了美国人的关注，他们决定用它做什么？
To answer this question, let's examine first a show that, on first glance, seems quintessentially American, could not get more American, Beverly Hills 90210.
为了回答这个问题，我们首先来看看一部乍一看似乎是典型的美国风格的节目，《比佛利山庄 90210》。
Danny Drennan writes the entertaining and definitive 90210 Weekly Wrapup on the world wide web.
丹尼·德伦南 (Danny Drennan) 在万维网上撰写了有趣且权威的 90210 每周总结。
He argues that 90210 is a kind of Canadian Trojan horse.
他认为90210是一种加拿大特洛伊木马。
The show is based on a Canadian TV series called Degrassi High .
该剧改编自加拿大电视剧《Degrassi High》。
Some characters and storylines are lifted straight from the original series.
一些角色和故事情节直接取自原始系列。
Not one but two Canadians star on the show, Kathleen Robertson and Jason Priestley.
该剧的主演不是一位，而是两位加拿大人，凯瑟琳·罗伯逊和杰森·普里斯特利。
And Priestley has slowly risen from actor to director and producer of the show.
而普里斯特利也慢慢从演员晋升为该剧的导演和制片人。
Once Priestley had control of storylines and content, yes, the inevitable happens.
一旦普里斯特利控制了故事情节和内容，是的，不可避免的事情就会发生。
Canadian references start to show up in 90210 in various guises.
加拿大参考文献开始以各种形式出现在 90210 中。
One episode sees Steve, Brandon, and Joe meeting some girls from Canada.
其中一集是史蒂夫、布兰登和乔遇见了一些来自加拿大的女孩。
And Jason's character, Brandon Walsh, unnecessarily comments on where they are from, Parry Sound, home of Hall of Fame hockey player Bobby Orr.
杰森饰演的布兰登·沃尔什毫无必要地评论了他们来自帕里湾，名人堂曲棍球运动员鲍比·奥尔的家乡。
Who even remembers who Bobby Orr is, much less where he was born?
谁还记得鲍比·奥尔是谁，更不用说他出生在哪里了？
Brandon's later comment as he ogles the girls from afar is, "O, Canada." When their girlfriends get jealous, Brandon is like, we just got totally hosed, eh?
布兰登后来在远远地注视着女孩们时评论道：“哦，加拿大。”当他们的女朋友嫉妒时，布兰登就像，我们刚刚被彻底浇灭了，嗯？
In one episode, for no reason whatsoever, Brandon refers to Manitoba.
在一集中，布兰登无缘无故地提到了马尼托巴省。
In the season finale, Steve makes the throwaway statement that his American actress mother is doing theater in Toronto.
在季末，史蒂夫随口说他的美国女演员母亲正在多伦多做戏剧。
In yet another, Kathleen Robertson's character, Clare Arnold, called Steve a hoser.
在另一部影片中，凯瑟琳·罗伯逊饰演的克莱尔·阿诺德称史蒂夫为“软管狂”。
Clare is often heard gratuitously attempting to speak mangled French, like the time when she wanted to say, "let the best man win." In French, "que le meilleur gagne," which instead came out "culla mello gong," in what I can only imagine is a shout-out to Quebec or something.
人们经常听到克莱尔无缘无故地试图说支离破碎的法语，就像她想说“让伴郎获胜”的时候一样。在法语中，“que le meilleur gagne”变成了“culla mello gong”，我只能想象这是对魁北克或其他什么的喊叫。
Brandon, in one show, plays in a charity hockey tournament with guest stars Cam Neely and Ron Duguay.
在一场演出中，布兰登与客串明星卡姆·尼利和罗恩·杜盖一起参加慈善曲棍球锦标赛。
You must've got a few splinters from your stick in my jersey.
我的球衣上肯定有几块你的棍子碎片。
Maybe you're too fast for your own good.
也许你太快了，不利于你自己。
I think you may want to pick up your jock strap.
我想你可能想拿起你的护身带。
You left it back there by the blue line.
你把它留在了蓝线旁边。
This is going to be fun playing with you all.
和大家一起玩会很有趣。
Could someone please tell me who plays hockey in Los Angeles?
有人可以告诉我谁在洛杉矶打曲棍球吗？
The fact is that in real life, Priestley used to play center on a Division II hockey team where his teammate was Michael J.
事实上，在现实生活中，普里斯特利曾经在二级曲棍球队中担任中锋，他的队友是迈克尔·J·普里斯特利。
Fox.
狐狸。
It's all connected.
一切都是相连的。
Then there was the show that starts out with an extreme close-up shot of a maple leaf insignia on the back of Brandon's shirt for, like, two minutes before Brandon walks away.
然后是节目以布兰登衬衫背面枫叶徽章的极端特写镜头开始，大约两分钟，然后布兰登走开。
The show basically starts out displaying the Canadian flag.
该节目基本上以展示加拿大国旗开始。
I mean, aren't there FCC laws against this kind of thing?
我的意思是，FCC 法律不是禁止此类事情吗？
Another show featured a Ukrainian dance troupe, which is a stealth reference to Canada where such dance troupes are well known.
另一场演出以乌克兰舞蹈团为特色，这暗指加拿大的舞蹈团是众所周知的。
Alex Trebek, former host of the Canadian show Stars on Ice and current host of Jeopardy!
亚历克斯·特雷贝克 (Alex Trebek)，加拿大节目《冰上之星》前主持人，现任《危险边缘》节目主持人。
, which makes unwarranted reference to Canada more often than can be explained statistically, himself stars in a Jeopardy!
，它对加拿大的无端提及次数超出了统计数据所能解释的范围，他自己也出演了《危险边缘》！
dream sequence on 90210 .
90210 上的梦序列。
Most recently, during a school talent show, Donna and Steve recreate a scene reminiscent of the Nelson Eddy- Jeanette MacDonald operetta-based movies of the '30s and '40s, in this case, featuring a Canadian Mountie and his gal singing "Royal Canadian Love Affair." A great cultural reference for Canadians.
最近，在一次学校才艺表演中，唐娜和史蒂夫重现了一个场景，让人想起 30 年代和 40 年代纳尔逊·艾迪 - 珍妮特·麦克唐纳的轻歌剧电影，在这个例子中，加拿大骑警和他的女朋友唱着“加拿大皇家爱情事件”。对加拿大人来说是一个很好的文化参考。
I mean, at least give the American audience a clue as to what you're talking about by mentioning Dudley Do-Right or something.
我的意思是，至少通过提及达德利·正确之类的东西让美国观众知道你在说什么。
Adding insult to injury, because of hockey playoffs, and unlike every other American-made entertainment product, 90210 is often seen on Monday night in Canada, two days before the Wednesday broadcast in the United States.
雪上加霜的是，由于有曲棍球季后赛，而且与其他美国制造的娱乐产品不同，《90210》经常在加拿大周一晚上播出，即周三在美国播出的两天前。
Canadian friends and fellow viewers of the show have informed me that hoards of Canadians cheer as these Canadian references to the revolution are broadcast over the American airwaves.
加拿大朋友和该节目的其他观众告诉我，当这些加拿大人对革命的提及通过美国广播电台播出时，大批加拿大人欢呼雀跃。
How did we ever reach this point?
我们是如何走到这一步的？
Well, how indeed.
嗯，确实如此。
Danny Drenna of the 90210 Weekly Wrapup and the forthcoming book, New York Diaries .
90210 每周总结和即将出版的新书《纽约日记》的丹尼·德雷纳 (Danny Drenna)。
Our own contributing editor, Jack Hitt, has another searing expose on these strangers in our midst.
我们自己的特约编辑杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）对我们中间的这些陌生人进行了另一次令人灼热的揭露。
He's been keeping tabs on Canadian Peter Jennings, host of ABC World News Tonight .
他一直在密切关注加拿大广播公司《今夜世界新闻》的主持人彼得·詹宁斯。
It goes without saying that Peter Jennings is a mole, a spy, a shill, a confederate for Canada.
不言而喻，彼得·詹宁斯是一名内奸、间谍、托儿、加拿大的同盟者。
All you have to do is watch his program, as I did one week.
你所要做的就是观看他的节目，就像我一周所做的那样。
In Costa Rica today, President Clinton went to the rainforest, and he got wet.
今天在哥斯达黎加，克林顿总统去了雨林，他被淋湿了。
He's not liberal or conservative.
他既不是自由派，也不是保守派。
Jennings just seems to have it in for the American government.
詹宁斯似乎只是为了美国政府。
Sometimes his reference is implied, even bizarre.
有时他的提及是含蓄的，甚至是奇怪的。
The Pentagon does say today it is very concerned about an incident involving the Russians.
五角大楼今天确实表示，它非常关注涉及俄罗斯人的事件。
Last month off the coast of Washington State, it appears that a Russian merchant ship directed a laser beam at a Canadian military helicopter carrying a US naval intelligence officer.
上个月，在华盛顿州海岸附近，一艘俄罗斯商船似乎向一架载有美国海军情报官员的加拿大军用直升机发射激光束。
He and a Canadian crew member both had their eyes burned, though not badly.
他和一名加拿大船员的眼睛都被烧伤，不过烧伤程度并不严重。
The Russian ship was apparently monitoring American submarines in the region.
这艘俄罗斯舰艇显然正在监视该地区的美国潜艇。
The helicopter was monitoring the Russians.
直升机正在监视俄罗斯人。
What are we being told by this story?
这个故事告诉我们什么？
It's not easy to parse, but it's either about an innocent Canadian blinded by our defense obsession or the superior maturity of Canada for not being directly involved in the two superpowers' now admittedly absurd arms race.
这并不容易解析，但这要么是一个无辜的加拿大人被我们对国防的痴迷蒙蔽了双眼，要么是加拿大因没有直接参与这两个超级大国现在公认的荒谬的军备竞赛而表现得更加成熟。
So there's no question about where Peter's loyalties lie.
所以毫无疑问彼得的忠诚在哪里。
In fact, Peter wants to come out of the Canadian closet.
事实上，彼得想出柜。
His Freudian slips cry out.
他的弗洛伊德式的错误让人哭笑不得。
When we come back out-- or when we come back--
当我们回来时——或者当我们回来时——
Reckon you mean when you come back oot, don't you, stranger?
我想你的意思是当你回来时，不是吗，陌生人？
Do you hear how Peter strains to split the difference between the Canadian oot and the American out?
你听到彼得如何努力区分加拿大的乌特和美国的乌特吗？
Listen again.
再听一遍。
When we come back out-- or when we come back--
当我们回来时——或者当我们回来时——
You'll notice that Peter's always about to come back from somewhere.
你会注意到彼得总是要从某个地方回来。
When we come back, the stunning drop in the welfare rolls.
当我们回来时，福利卷的惊人下降。
When we come back, the space-age technology that is already down on the farm.
当我们回来时，太空时代的技术已经在农场里了。
Or he's heading out.
或者他要出去了。
Peter Jennings We're going to begin tonight with an--
彼得·詹宁斯 今晚我们将从——
Finally this evening, we're going to take you to Alabama.
最后今晚，我们将带您前往阿拉巴马州。
See, Peter's on a journey to someplace.
看，彼得正在去某个地方的旅途中。
If you watch his show long enough, it's obvious.
如果你看他的节目足够长的时间，那就很明显了。
The very structure of the show has a sense that we're going somewhere-- a place, a mythical place.
这部剧的结构本身就有一种我们要去某个地方的感觉——一个地方，一个神秘的地方。
Every program has this feeling of zigzagging en route to some ultimate destination.
每个节目都有一种曲折通向最终目的地的感觉。
And you know where he wants to take us?
你知道他想带我们去哪里吗？
Canada.
加拿大。
That's right, Canada.
没错，就是加拿大。
But actually, after you've watched World News Tonight long enough, you realize that this is not a journey to the real Canada but to the platonic ideal of Canadian-ness.
但实际上，当你看了《今晚世界新闻》足够长的时间后，你会意识到这不是通往真正加拿大的旅程，而是通往柏拉图式理想的加拿大人的旅程。
Stay with me here.
留在我这里吧。
See, Peter's news is noticeably different from Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw's.
瞧，彼得的新闻与丹·拉瑟和汤姆·布罗考的新闻明显不同。
Tom and Dan see a hostile world erupting with bad news everywhere, full of murder and mayhem, macho and dismal, hell in a hand basket, fire and brimstone stuff.
汤姆和丹看到了一个充满敌意的世界，到处都是坏消息，充满了谋杀和混乱，充满了男子气概和阴郁，手篮里的地狱，火和硫磺之类的东西。
You know, very puritanical, very American in outlook.
你知道，非常清教徒，非常美国式的观点。
Dan's all clenched jaws, garretted coat and tie, a human time bomb waiting to explode.
丹咬紧牙关，外套和领带都扣在绞架上，就像一颗等待爆炸的定时炸弹。
Peter's just kicking back.
彼得刚刚恢复过来。
He could be wearing a smoking jacket and, during the commercial, sipping a mild single-malt Scotch.
他可能穿着一件吸烟夹克，在广告期间喝着温和的单一麦芽苏格兰威士忌。
Once Peter gets past ridiculing the American government, it's odd, but suddenly, the news he's reading is uncannily bright.
一旦彼得不再嘲笑美国政府，这会很奇怪，但突然间，他读到的新闻变得异常明亮。
Cheerful and good news.
令人高兴和好消息。
Healing news.
治愈的消息。
Soothing news.
令人安慰的消息。
Ecumenical news.
普世新闻。
Canadian news.
加拿大新闻。
They've approved a new type of laser device that should permit a dentist to fill a tooth more efficiently, and for you, if you have to go, maybe more comfortably, as well.
他们已经批准了一种新型激光设备，可以让牙医更有效地补牙，而且对于您来说，如果您必须去的话，也许也更舒服。
More comfortable dentistry.
更舒适的牙科治疗。
My, that is good news.
天哪，这是个好消息。
But wait.
但是等等。
You may soon be able to check for E.
您可能很快就能检查 E。
coli bacteria right in the supermarket.
超市里就有大肠杆菌。
The new obesity pill that actually breaks down fat in the body.
新型减肥药实际上可以分解体内的脂肪。
To understand the real meaning of this Canadian news, one has to read past the literal facts embedded in each statement and get to the level on which television actually speaks to us-- emotion.
要理解这则加拿大新闻的真正含义，人们必须超越每条陈述中所包含的字面事实，并达到电视实际与我们对话的水平——情感。
To really feel it, you have to merge the ads and the news into one seamless half hour of Peterphoria.
要想真正感受到它，你必须将广告和新闻融合到一个无缝的半小时 Peterphoria 中。
You have to step a bit further back from the screen, lie down on a down comforter, and let it wash over you, like reading Finnegans Wake .
你必须离屏幕稍远一点，躺在羽绒被上，让它冲刷你，就像读《芬尼根守灵夜》一样。
And if you do this, suddenly the hidden meaning becomes instantaneously clear and weirdly repetitive.
如果你这样做，隐藏的含义会突然变得清晰并且奇怪地重复。
The message is, surrender.
传达的信息是，投降。
Your time is over.
你的时间已经结束了。
My fellow Americans, a great nation is being asked to lie down and give it up.
我的美国同胞们，一个伟大的国家被要求躺下并放弃它。
Peter's meaning is clear.
彼得的意思很清楚。
Even superpowers must age and yield and settle down.
即使是超级大国也必须老化、屈服并安定下来。
One ad that airs a couple of times every show is for SunAmerica.
SunAmerica 的广告每场都会播放几次。
Sun, as in setting sun.
太阳，如夕阳。
SunAmerica.
太阳美国。
Ask about our personal retirement portfolios.
询问我们的个人退休投资组合。
SunAmerica, the retirement specialists.
SunAmerica，退休专家。
Retire.
退休吧。
No commercial break passes without the word reverberating through the screen.
任何商业广告中，这个词都会在屏幕上回响。
But of course, Peter and his fellow travelers try to keep this message lively and vibrant.
当然，彼得和他的旅伴们努力让这一信息保持生动活泼。
[MUSIC PLAYING] You did your job.
[音乐播放] 你完成了你的工作。
You did it well.
你做得很好。
It's OK, see?
没关系，看到了吗？
Over time though, the message goes even further than that.
但随着时间的推移，这个信息的含义甚至远不止于此。
Why just retire?
为什么只是退休？
Even the musical score begins to hint at the next logical option.
甚至乐谱也开始暗示下一个合乎逻辑的选择。
Tum-tum-tum-tum, Tums.
咚咚咚咚咚，咚咚咚。
Jack Hitt I don't think I'm stretching here.
杰克·希特（Jack Hitt） 我认为我没有在这里伸展身体。
You heard it yourself.
你自己也听到了。
The message is, let it go.
传达的信息是，放手吧。
Cross all the way over to the other side.
一路穿过去到另一边。
The entire half hour is a kind of advertisement for dark eternity.
整个半个小时就像是一种黑暗永恒的广告。
Sometimes you have to tell yourself, stop.
有时候你必须告诉自己，停下来。
Look around.
环顾四周。
This is the good stuff.
这是好东西。
[SINGING] The look, the feel of cotton, the fabric of our lives.
[歌唱] 棉花的外观、触感，我们生活的面料。
This is cotton.
这是棉花。
Jack Hitt This is cotton?
杰克·希特 这是棉质的吗？
Honey, this is a shroud.
亲爱的，这是一块裹尸布。
Just when is it that you stop living and look around?
你什么时候停止生活并环顾四周？
We're dying here.
我们快死在这里了。
See how obvious it is once you take off your rose-colored glasses and see what's in front of your face?
当你摘下玫瑰色眼镜并看看你面前的东西时，你知道它是多么明显吗？
Once you tune in at this level-- the real level-- each commercial gets increasingly more frightening.
一旦你调到这个级别——真正的级别——每个广告就会变得越来越可怕。
Wouldn't you like to go someplace that felt really safe and secure?
您不想去一个感觉非常安全的地方吗？
Well, now you can.
好吧，现在你可以了。
Someplace safe and secure.
安全可靠的地方。
Someplace like America, but without all those tense Dan Rather troubles.
像美国这样的地方，但没有丹·拉瑟那些紧张的麻烦。
Someplace like Canada.
像加拿大这样的地方。
And isn't that how Americans have always thought of Canada?
这不正是美国人一直以来对加拿大的看法吗？
It's like America, only without any jazz.
就像美国一样，只是没有爵士乐。
Tranquil and safe and secure and endless, like death.
宁静、安全、有保障、无尽，就像死亡一样。
If only Peter can take us to that place where we no longer have any anxiety.
要是彼得能带我们到那个地方，让我们不再有任何焦虑就好了。
If only Peter can remove the sting.
要是彼得能把刺去掉就好了。
If only Peter can end the fear.
要是彼得能结束恐惧就好了。
If only.
如果只是的话。
When we come back out-- or when we come back-- taking the anxiety out of the fear.
当我们回来时——或者当我们回来时——消除恐惧中的焦虑。
Uh huh.
嗯嗯。
Take us out, Peter.
带我们出去，彼得。
Tell us what the story is all aboot.
告诉我们故事的全部内容。
Today, the story that reminds us once again that things are not always what they appear to be.
今天，这个故事再次提醒我们，事情并不总是像看上去的那样。
Jack Hitt.
杰克·希特.
Act Four: Who's Canadian?
第四幕：谁是加拿大人？
Ira Glass Act Four, Who's Canadian?
艾拉·格拉斯第四幕，谁是加拿大人？
Another story of siblings parted ways.
又一个兄弟姐妹分道扬镳的故事。
Our senior editor Paul Tough and his sister grew up in Toronto, the most American of Canadian cities.
我们的高级编辑保罗·托夫和他的妹妹在加拿大最美国化的城市多伦多长大。
Then, about 10 years ago, they both left and headed in opposite directions.
然后，大约10年前，他们双双离开，走向相反的方向。
He moved to New York City, where he's lived ever since.
他搬到了纽约市，从那时起他就住在那里。
She began a series of moves to smaller, more typically Canadian cities and towns.
她开始一系列搬迁到更小、更典型的加拿大城镇。
In Paul's view, she is the good Canadian.
在保罗看来，她是优秀的加拿大人。
He's the bad one.
他是坏人。
All this hour, we've heard people talk about who's Canadian and what it means to be a Canadian.
整个小时，我们听到人们谈论谁是加拿大人以及作为加拿大人意味着什么。
We asked Paul to call his sister and find out whether she still considers him to be a Canadian.
我们请保罗给他的妹妹打电话，看看她是否仍然认为他是加拿大人。
It's not just that my sister actually lives in Canada, and right in the heart of the country where it's winter for eight months out of the year, that makes me think of her as the quintessential Canadian.
不仅仅是因为我姐姐实际上住在加拿大，而且就在这个国家的中心地带，一年中有八个月是冬天，这让我认为她是典型的加拿大人。
And it's not even her ideas about the place or her sense of patriotism.
这甚至不是她对这个地方的看法或她的爱国主义意识。
It's more the way that she lives in Canada, connected to her small community and her neighbors and the natural world around her, working at her church and in her kitchen and in her garden.
这更像是她在加拿大的生活方式，与她的小社区、邻居和周围的自然世界联系在一起，在她的教堂、厨房和花园里工作。
That, to me, is a Canadian life.
对我来说，这就是加拿大人的生活。
And from my studio apartment in New York, her life in Winnipeg seems very far away.
从我在纽约的单间公寓来看，她在温尼伯的生活似乎很遥远。
And I think to her, I seem far away, too.
我想对她来说，我似乎也很遥远。
It's interesting because I talk about you often when I talk to people.
这很有趣，因为当我与人交谈时我经常谈论你。
And I talk about you as being my brother who has gone off and lived in the United States.
我说你是我的兄弟，他已经离开美国生活了。
And I talk about you with a great deal of pride.
我非常自豪地谈论你。
And people certainly respond by being very impressed.
人们的反应肯定是印象深刻。
But there's that sense in which-- so I was thinking, if you came here, you would be a celebrity in the sense that you're my brother who lives in the United States and you live this highly sophisticated life and you live in New York City and everyone's deeply impressed by this.
但从某种意义上说，所以我在想，如果你来到这里，你会成为名人，因为你是我住在美国的兄弟，你过着高度复杂的生活，你住在纽约市，每个人都对此印象深刻。
But you wouldn't be of us.
但你不会是我们中的一员。
I think the perception would be very different if you had done the same thing over the last 10 years in London, England.
我认为，如果你在过去 10 年里在英国伦敦做了同样的事情，你的看法将会非常不同。
I think you would be perceived as being more Canadian still than having gone to the United States for 10 years.
我想你会被认为比你去了美国十年还更像加拿大人。
I suspect it might even be true if you had gone to another European country, that you would still be perceived as being more Canadian than you would be perceived now.
我怀疑，如果你去了另一个欧洲国家，你仍然会被认为比现在更加拿大。
But there's a way, because of the place that the United States has in the Canadian imagination, that going to America has a very special flavor to it.
但有一种方式，由于美国在加拿大人的想象中占有一席之地，所以去美国有一种非常特殊的味道。
Yeah.
是的。
Paul Tough And what is that?
保罗·强硬 那是什么？
What does it mean?
这是什么意思？
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but I think in some ways, it's going over to the other side.
好吧，不要过分强调这一点，但我认为在某些方面，它正在走向另一边。
What about when other people move to the United States and musicians you like or actors you like or writers you like?
当其他人搬到美国以及你喜欢的音乐家、你喜欢的演员或你喜欢的作家时怎么办？
Uh huh.
嗯嗯。
The tragic trade.
悲惨的贸易。
Paul's Sister The tragic Wayne Gretzky story.
保罗的妹妹 韦恩·格雷茨基的悲惨故事。
Not to mention the whole Winnipeg Jets team.
更不用说整个温尼伯喷气机队了。
Where are they now?
他们现在在哪里？
Phoenix, of all places.
凤凰城，在所有地方中。
Paul Tough Phoenix, Arizona.
保罗·泰格 (Paul Tough)，亚利桑那州凤凰城。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
Were you there when the Jets moved to Phoenix?
喷气机队搬到菲尼克斯时你在场吗？
Yes, I was.
是的，我是。
It was just not pretty.
只是不太漂亮。
It's just not pretty.
只是不太漂亮。
I mean, it's a really deep sense of loss, I think, and betrayal for Canadians.
我的意思是，我认为这对加拿大人来说是一种非常深刻的失落感和背叛感。
Oh, whoever goes.
哦，不管谁去。
And it's obviously not so rational all the time, right?
显然这并不总是那么理性，对吧？
So there's two things.
所以有两件事。
There's a sense of betrayal, but there's also just a sense of sadness and a realization that that's the reality of the world and the economy that we live in.
有一种被背叛的感觉，但也有一种悲伤的感觉，并意识到这就是我们所生活的世界和经济的现实。
And also, maybe weariness, almost, when another one goes.
而且，当另一个人走了时，也许几乎是疲倦了。
Did you ever have any opinions about the fact that I was living in the United States?
您对我住在美国这一事实有什么看法吗？
Do you ever feel like I had given up my birthright or denied my country?
你有没有觉得我放弃了我与生俱来的权利或否认了我的国家？
You are a bum.
你是个流浪汉。
Paul Tough Not even necessarily in those terms.
保罗·强硬 就这些而言，甚至不一定。
But did you ever feel sorry that I wasn't living in Canada?
但你有没有因为我没有住在加拿大而感到遗憾？
I think only on a personal level.
我认为仅在个人层面上。
I don't think in any of those sort of philosophical ways.
我不以任何那种哲学方式思考。
I think I would feel different, though, if you told me that you were deciding to become an American citizen.
不过，如果你告诉我你决定成为美国公民，我想我会有不同的感觉。
But I think until now, I've always felt like you're just living there and working there and eventually, you'll come back.
但我想到目前为止，我一直觉得你只是在那里生活和工作，最终你会回来的。
Really?
真的吗？
Paul's Sister Yeah.
保罗的妹妹 是的。
Or it's not even that clear, but it's still that you belong here somehow.
或者甚至不太清楚，但无论如何你仍然属于这里。
And even though you don't come back very much, somehow you're still Canadian.
即使你不常回来，但不知何故你仍然是加拿大人。
A lot of the Americans that I've spoken to have talked about how there's just no difference at all between Americans and Canadians, that Canadians are exactly the same as Americans.
我采访过的很多美国人都谈到，美国人和加拿大人之间根本没有区别，加拿大人和美国人完全一样。
And, in fact, there are some people who say that in a really positive way.
事实上，有些人以非常积极的方式这么说。
[LAUGHS] Oh, don't worry.
[笑]哦，别担心。
You're just like us.
你就像我们一样。
Exactly.
确切地。
There's no difference between you.
你们之间没有什么区别。
You don't have to feel different.
你不必感到不同。
Just like whites would say to black-- [INTERPOSING]
就像白人对黑人说的那样——[插入]
Exactly.
正是如此。
So then, what's the answer?
那么，答案是什么呢？
What do I say to people when they say, well, OK, what is Canadian?
当人们说“好吧，加拿大是什么”时，我该怎么说？
Yeah, I think that's really a struggle for Canadians.
是的，我认为这对加拿大人来说确实是一场斗争。
And in some way, I think it's that struggle that, ironically, defines what the answer is.
讽刺的是，在某种程度上，我认为正是这种斗争定义了答案。
I think in some ways, the answer is that a Canadian is someone who struggles to figure out what is to be Canadian and not American.
我认为在某些方面，答案是加拿大人努力弄清楚什么是加拿大人而不是美国人。
And all of those things, it's really hard to make a pavilion about.
所有这些事情，建造一个展馆真的很难。
There's that eternal problem of how do you make a Canadian knight?
有一个永恒的问题：如何成为一名加拿大骑士？
How do you make a Canadian pavilion?
如何建造加拿大馆？
And you kind of have maple syrup, and that's the end of it.
你还有枫糖浆，就这样了。
And we don't have a nice national dress and national food.
我们没有漂亮的民族服装和民族食物。
And we have, well, the beaver, and not too much else.
我们有，嗯，海狸，没有太多其他东西。
Well, our program was produced by Nancy Updike, Paul Tough, and me, with Alix Spiegel and Julie Snyder, contributing editors Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin and consigliere Sarah Vowell.
嗯，我们的节目由南希·厄普代克、保罗·托夫和我以及阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和朱莉·斯奈德、特约编辑杰克·希特、玛吉·罗克林和顾问莎拉·沃威尔共同制作。
Production help from Laura Doggett and Sylvia Lemus.
Laura Doggett 和 Sylvia Lemus 为制作提供帮助。
And And did I mention Paul Tough?
我有没有提到保罗·图赫？
Yes, Canadian.
是的，加拿大人。
Ira Glass Indeed, he is.
艾拉·格拉斯 确实如此。
Today's program was first broadcast back in 1997, hence the oddly anachronistic references to Beverly Hills 90210 .
今天的节目于 1997 年首次播出，因此奇怪地不合时宜地提到了比佛利山庄 90210。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] If you'd like to buy a cassette of this or any of our programs, call us here at WBEZ in Chicago-- 312-832-3380-- or visit our website where you can also listen to our programs for free-- absolutely free-- www.thisamericanlife.org.
[鸣谢] 如果您想购买本节目或我们任何节目的磁带，请致电芝加哥的 WBEZ - 312-832-3380 - 或访问我们的网站，您还可以免费收听我们的节目 - 完全免费 - www.thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight by Torey Malatia.
[资金来源] WBEZ 管理由 Torey Malatia 监督。
Yes, Canadian.
是的，加拿大人。
Ira Glass Oh, say it's not so.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）哦，我说不是这样的。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life .
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。