641: The Walls - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #641 | January 4, 2019 641: The Walls Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 641 集 | 2019 年 1 月 4 日 641：墙壁 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass Mohamedsalem is 33.

序言 Ira Glass Mohamedsalem 33 岁。

And his parents want him to call his cousins on the phone.

他的父母希望他给他的表兄弟打电话。

He doesn't want to.

他不想。

He doesn't like to.

他不喜欢。

And I have to say, I'm with him.

我不得不说，我和他在一起。

He's got a really good excuse.

他有一个非常好的借口。

[SIGHS] I just grew up never knowing them.

[叹气]我从小到大都不认识他们。

For me, I need to spend time with them to start to be attached to them.

对我来说，我需要花时间和他们在一起才能开始依恋他们。

No, I understand.

不，我明白。

They're like strangers to you.

他们对你来说就像陌生人一样。

Yes, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Ira Glass He never got to know any of his relatives because Morocco built a wall 1,700 miles long across the desert.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 他从未认识过自己的任何亲戚，因为摩洛哥在沙漠上修建了 1,700 英里长的城墙。

It's actually several walls of piled up sand, plus ditches in between the walls, plus barbed wire, plus, reportedly, seven million landmines, plus 120,000 soldiers separating the rest of his family, who were in Western Sahara, from the place where Mohamedsalem was born and still lives today, a massive refugee settlement with an estimated 165,000 people in it on the other side of the wall.

它实际上是几堵沙墙，加上墙之间的沟渠，加上铁丝网，据报道还有七百万枚地雷，再加上 12 万士兵，将他在西撒哈拉的家人与穆罕默德萨利姆出生并至今仍然居住的地方隔离开来，那是一个巨大的难民安置点，估计有 165,000 人居住在墙的另一边。

So he has all these cousins from eight aunts and uncles.

所以他有八个叔叔阿姨的所有堂兄弟姐妹。

And--

还有——

I would never met them.

我永远不会见到他们。

There is nothing in common.

没有任何共同点。

We haven't shared anything.

我们还没有分享任何东西。

I know their names, and I know I have a relative.

我知道他们的名字，我也知道我有一个亲戚。

But--

但是——

That must be so frustrating for your parents.

这一定让你的父母很沮丧。

[LAUGHS] All the time they try to get me to call them and talk to them, but what should we talk about?

[笑]他们一直试图让我给他们打电话并与他们交谈，但我们应该谈论什么？

And what do we have in common that we can talk about if we finish the initial greeting?

如果我们结束了最初的问候，我们有什么共同点可以谈论呢？

And I feel guilty about it and bad about it, but it's just I don't know what to do about it.

我对此感到内疚和难过，但只是我不知道该怎么办。

They are mad.

他们很生气。

But part of the blame belongs to them, to the fact that the occupation and the family separation.

但部分责任归咎于他们，归咎于职业和家庭的分离。

And I shouldn't be totally the one to take all the responsibility for everything.

我不应该是一个对所有事情承担全部责任的人。

Oh, I see.

我懂了。

You're saying, don't blame me.

你说，别怪我。

There's an entire international situation here.

这里有整个国际局势。

I am not personally to blame for this.

我个人对此不负有责任。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

I didn't choose to leave away from them.

我没有选择离开他们。

And if I have the chance, I would love to be with them and get to know them.

如果有机会，我很想和他们在一起并了解他们。

But the wall between the refugee camp where he's lived his life and the area where his family's from, where he says they belong, that wall is the central fact of his life, the rock on which everything else is built.

但他生活的难民营和他的家人来自的地方（他所说的他们所属的地方）之间的那堵墙是他生活的中心事实，是其他一切的基础。

If the wall weren't there, instead of his current life, where he spends his days doing politics, trying to draw the world's attention to the situation his people are in--

如果隔离墙不在那里，而不是他现在的生活，他整天从事政治活动，试图引起世界对他的人民所处处境的关注——

I for sure would have nothing to do with politics.

我肯定不会与政治有任何关系。

And I wish I had the option and the choice to care about silly things like the rest of the people.

我希望我有选择和选择像其他人一样关心愚蠢的事情。

I love swimming.

我喜欢游泳。

And I have done it just like three or four times, once when I was a child.

我已经这样做过三四次了，一次是在我还是个孩子的时候。

And there's no place to swim in the refugee camp.

而且难民营里连游泳的地方都没有。

No, no, no, no, no, no, there isn't.

不，不，不，不，不，不，没有。

There isn't.

没有。

There's a 1,700 mile wall between him and the ocean.

他和大海之间有一道 1,700 英里的墙。

When somebody builds a wall, we readjust our lives around that wall.

当有人建造一堵墙时，我们就会围绕这堵墙重新调整我们的生活。

I'm just closing the main gate until tomorrow morning.

我只是要关闭大门直到明天早上。

So what's this gate made of?

那么这个门是用什么做的呢？

Man I don't know.

我不知道。

[BANGING] Conor Garrett What is that?

[砰砰]康纳·加勒特那是什么？

Steel?

钢？

Yeah.

是的。

Conor Garrett With big spikes on the top.

康纳·加勒特 (Conor Garrett) 顶部有大尖刺。

In Belfast, Northern Ireland, it's been 20 years since peace was declared between Protestants and Catholics.

在北爱尔兰贝尔法斯特，新教徒与天主教徒宣布和平已有 20 年了。

But there are still these tall walls, some of them 50 feet high, that separate their neighborhoods with a few gates that allow traffic and pedestrians through.

但仍然有这些高墙，其中一些高达 50 英尺，用几扇门将社区隔开，允许车辆和行人通过。

It's 6:30 at night, and the guard is closing the Northumberland Gate for the evening.

现在是晚上 6:30，守卫正在关闭诺森伯兰门。

It will reopen at 6:30 in the morning.

将于早上 6:30 重新开放。

Producer Conor Garrett talked to him.

制片人康纳·加勒特与他进行了交谈。

They're just waving people through.

他们只是挥手示意人们通过。

You can see people are rushing before they close up for the day.

你可以看到人们在一天打烊之前就已经开始忙碌了。

Yeah.

是的。

I could actually time them.

我实际上可以给他们计时。

I could actually time them.

我实际上可以给他们计时。

You mean you can time them?

你的意思是你可以给他们计时？

You know what time they're going to come through?

你知道他们什么时候会过来吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass People are so used to having the walls and so nervous about the violence that might break out if they were torn down that two decades after the conflict officially ended when there was a modest proposal not to tear the walls down but to simply replace the sheet of steel that was the gate at the Workman Avenue crossing with a gate that is steel bars that you can see through to the other side, that took 18 months to convince local residents of.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 人们已经习惯了有围墙，也非常担心如果拆除围墙可能会爆发暴力事件，因此在冲突正式结束二十年后，有人提出了一个温和的建议，即不要拆除围墙，而是简单地用一扇可以看到另一边的钢条门取代工人大道十字路口的钢板大门，花了 18 个月才说服了当地居民。

Ian McLaughlin is one of the organizers who pushed for that change.

伊恩·麦克劳克林是推动这一变革的组织者之一。

It was a very long and drawn out process because you have to take into account people's fears.

这是一个非常漫长的过程，因为你必须考虑到人们的恐惧。

The vast majority of deaths which occurred during the conflict occurred where these structures were built.

冲突期间发生的绝大多数死亡发生在这些建筑物的建造地。

And the point I make is that, primarily for some of our elderly residents who live in these neighborhoods, a death of a family member that may have happened-- I don't know-- 30 or 40 years ago, it's as though it happened 30 days ago.

我要表达的观点是，主要对于居住在这些社区的一些老年居民来说，家庭成员的死亡可能发生在——我不知道——30 或 40 年前，就好像它发生在 30 天前一样。

So any conversation or any suggestion of a removal of that structure, it actually, to this day, traumatizes these families.

因此，直到今天，任何关于拆除该结构的谈话或建议实际上都给这些家庭带来了创伤。

I think you have to realize, in people's mindsets, if you have lived in the same neighborhood for 40 years, and every single day when you wake up, the first thing you see when you draw your blinds is this structure at the bottom of your garden or your alleyway, if you're waking up one morning and that structure's gone, how would you feel?

我想你必须意识到，在人们的观念中，如果你在同一个街区生活了40年，每天当你醒来时，拉上百叶窗，你看到的第一件事就是你花园或小巷底部的这个结构，如果你有一天早上醒来，那个结构消失了，你会有什么感觉？

Once a wall is up, it seems hard to tear down.

墙一旦竖起来，就很难拆除。

And more are going up these days around the world.

如今，世界各地的此类病例正在不断增加。

India's building a 2,500 mile barbed wire fence on the border with Bangladesh.

印度正在与孟加拉国边境修建 2,500 英里长的铁丝网。

Kenya's built just a few miles of what it hopes will be hundreds of miles of wall on the Somalia border.

肯尼亚在索马里边境修建了几英里长的隔离墙，预计将有数百英里长。

Israel had 300 miles of walls between itself and the West Bank and then added another 245 miles on the border with Egypt in 2013.

以色列与约旦河西岸之间建有 300 英里的隔离墙，并于 2013 年在与埃及的边境又增加了 245 英里的隔离墙。

The main reason walls are going up around the world right now is to stop unwanted immigrants.

目前世界各地修建隔离墙的主要原因是为了阻止不受欢迎的移民。

That's the reason for the wall that was just finished between Turkey and Syria, which is nearly 500 miles long.

这就是土耳其和叙利亚之间刚刚建成的近 500 英里长的隔离墙的原因。

It's there to block terrorists and Syrian refugees.

它的目的是阻止恐怖分子和叙利亚难民。

Journalist Maya talked to me from Kilis.

记者玛雅在基利斯接受了我的采访。

We are at the border gates.

我们已经到了边境口岸。

Every Syrian who you speak to who has managed to cross the wall speaks about having been shot at either with rubber bullets or with real bullets.

与你交谈的每一个成功越过隔离墙的叙利亚人都谈到自己被橡皮子弹或真子弹击中。

And Syrians have been killed, yes.

是的，叙利亚人被杀了。

Stopping immigrants, of course, is the reason for the wall that President Trump wants to build on the Mexican border, the one he shut down the government over.

当然，阻止移民是特朗普总统想要在墨西哥边境修建隔离墙的原因，他也因为这堵墙而关闭了政府。

Look at all of the countries that have walls.

看看所有有墙的国家。

And they work, 100%.

而且它们 100% 有效。

A wall is a wall.

墙就是墙。

That was at his cabinet meeting this week.

那是在他本周的内阁会议上。

In San Diego last year, he inspected prototypes of different walls for the border.

去年在圣地亚哥，他检查了不同边界墙的原型。

The round piece that you see up here or you see more clearly back there, the larger it is, the better it is because it's very hard to get over the top.

你在这里看到的圆形部分或者你在后面看到的更清楚的圆形部分，它越大越好，因为它很难越过顶部。

These are like professional mountain climbers.

他们就像专业的登山者。

They're incredible climbers.

他们是令人难以置信的登山者。

They can't climb some of these walls.

他们无法攀爬其中一些墙壁。

Some of them, they can.

其中一些，他们可以。

Those are the walls we're not using.

这些是我们没有使用的墙。

Stopping immigrants is the reason that Norway just built a wall that is a measly 650 feet long at the very tippy top of Norway at the Russian border.

为了阻止移民，挪威刚刚在俄罗斯边境的挪威山顶修建了一堵只有区区 650 英尺长的墙。

I talked to the mayor of the town on the Norwegian side of that border, Mayor Rune Rafaelsen, of the town of Kirkenes.

我与该边境挪威一侧的希尔克内斯镇市长鲁恩·拉斐尔森进行了交谈。

Not from my house, no. But from my cabin, I can see Russia.

不是我家的，不是。但从我的小屋里，我可以看到俄罗斯。

[LAUGHS] Yeah.

[笑]是的。

If I could just talk to the liberals in our audience for a second, I know when you guys think of the Scandinavian governments, they seem so competent and functional with their universal health care and their broad social safety nets.

如果我能和观众中的自由派聊一聊，我知道当你们想到斯堪的纳维亚政府时，他们似乎非常有能力，他们的全民医疗保健和广泛的社会安全网运转良好。

And I just want to say, perhaps it will be comforting to you to hear that this particular project was just as bumbling as anything we do here in the United States.

我只是想说，也许你听到这个特定的项目和我们在美国所做的任何事情一样笨手笨脚，会让你感到安慰。

They built their fence a full year after migrants had already stopped trying to cross that particular border, so there were no migrants to stop.

他们在移民已经停止试图跨越特定边界整整一年后才修建了围栏，因此没有移民可以阻止。

They accidentally started construction too close to the Russian border, then had to tear it down and move it back a foot and a half.

他们不小心在距离俄罗斯边境太近的地方开始施工，然后不得不将其拆除并向后移动一英尺半。

And they built their fence right next to a fence that Russia already had at the very same border, a way more effective fence that stretches 120 miles.

他们在俄罗斯已经在同一边境设立的围栏旁边建造了围栏，这是一个更有效的围栏，绵延 120 英里。

Remember, the Norwegian fence is only 650 feet long.

请记住，挪威围栏只有 650 英尺长。

As the mayor pointed out, refugees will be able to simply walk around a fence that is that short.

正如市长所指出的，难民将能够简单地绕过这么短的栅栏。

So why build it?

那么为什么要建造它呢？

Because the government wanted to do something, to say that we are building walls up, way before it was inspired by Mr. Trump and the walls to Mexico.

因为政府想做点什么，说我们正在修建隔离墙，早在它受到特朗普先生和墨西哥隔离墙的启发之前。

I don't know.

我不知道。

So it's just a symbol.

所以它只是一个象征。

It has no effect regarding protecting Norway from refugees at all, so people are laughing about it.

它对于保护挪威免受难民侵害根本没有任何作用，所以人们都在嘲笑它。

Wait.

等待。

I still feel confused.

我仍然感到困惑。

If there's already a fence on the Russian side, why would there need to be a second fence?

如果俄罗斯一侧已经有栅栏，为什么还需要第二栅栏？

Yeah.

是的。

[CHUCKLES] I agree.

[轻笑]我同意。

You'd have to ask the recent prime minister about that.

这个问题你得去问最近的首相。

I don't understand why they have built this fence.

我不明白他们为什么要建这个栅栏。

It's very, very odd.

这非常非常奇怪。

They're very comic.

他们非常喜剧。

A wall, apparently, just has its own gravitational pull that warps the logic of the world around it.

显然，一堵墙有它自己的引力，扭曲了它周围世界的逻辑。

And once the wall is up and is a fact on the landscape, it alters the human behavior on either side of it.

一旦围墙建成并成为景观中的事实，它就会改变围墙两侧的人类行为。

At that point, it's like we accommodate the wall, and definitely not the other way around.

到那时，就好像我们适应了这堵墙，而不是相反。

We are the ivy that grows on it.

我们是长在上面的常春藤。

It is the immovable object.

它是不可移动的物体。

Today on our program, as our government fights over whether or not to build a big, beautiful wall that apparently Mexico is not going to pay for, we have stories about people and walls all over the globe.

今天在我们的节目中，当我们的政府争论是否要修建一堵显然墨西哥不会出资的又大又漂亮的墙时，我们有关于世界各地的人和墙的故事。

We hear about kids who use a border wall as a tool in their family relationships, people who devote themselves to conquering walls, and a wall that supposedly can only be seen from one side, and not the other-- no kidding.

我们听说孩子们把边界墙作为维持家庭关系的工具，有人致力于征服墙，而墙据说只能从一侧看到，而从另一侧看不到——不是开玩笑。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, "Just Another Kind Of Outdoor Game."

第一幕，“只是另一种户外游戏。”

So when we were looking at border walls and fences around the world, one in particular stood out to us because if there were ever a place where you think you could build a physical barrier between two places and have it work, this would be the place.

因此，当我们审视世界各地的边界墙和栅栏时，有一个地方对我们来说特别突出，因为如果你认为有一个地方可以在两个地方之间建立物理屏障并使其发挥作用，那么这里就是那个地方。

The fences are around the Spanish cities of Malilla and Ceuta.

这些栅栏围绕着西班牙城市马利利亚和休达。

Now, the interesting thing about these Spanish cities is they are actually in Africa.

现在，这些西班牙城市的有趣之处在于它们实际上位于非洲。

Right on the Northern coast of Africa, right there on the mainland, right on the edge of the water in what would otherwise be the country of Morocco, there are these two little dots, two cities that are officially part of Spain.

就在非洲北海岸，就在大陆上，就在摩洛哥国家的水边，有这两个小点，两个城市，正式属于西班牙。

Ceuta and Malilla are both very small.

休达和马利利亚都很小。

Ceuta is about seven square miles.

休达大约七平方英里。

Malilla is less than five square miles.

马利拉不到五平方英里。

And if you can make it into either of these cities from the rest of Africa, you're on European soil.

如果您能从非洲其他地区进入这两个城市中的任何一个，那么您就踏上了欧洲的土地。

You can try to claim asylum, or find some other way to stay and live in Europe.

您可以尝试申请庇护，或寻找其他方式留在欧洲生活。

But the Spanish government, with the assistance of the Moroccan government, has built a very impressive barrier.

但西班牙政府在摩洛哥政府的协助下，建立了一个非常令人印象深刻的屏障。

Around Ceuta, there are two layers of fencing almost 20 feet high with razor wire on the top.

休达周围有两层近 20 英尺高的栅栏，顶部装有刀片刺网。

Around Malilla, there are four fences and a trench, basically a moat without water in it-- it's two meters deep-- also infrared cameras, and of course, guards.

马利拉周围有四道栅栏和一条壕沟，基本上是一条没有水的护城河——两米深——还有红外摄像机，当然还有警卫。

And what has happened is that this has created a perverse and pretty dangerous obstacle course.

所发生的情况是，这造成了一个反常且相当危险的障碍。

Because, of course, people try to storm the barrier, sometimes in huge groups trying to get through it all at once, any way they can.

当然，因为人们会试图冲破障碍，有时会成群结队地想尽一切办法一次性突破障碍。

Our producer, David Kestenbaum, talked to one man who thought he could make it.

我们的制片人大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）与一位自认为能成功的人进行了交谈。

David is from Cameroon.

大卫来自喀麦隆。

And when I asked him to say his full name, just so I didn't mess it up, he gave this surprisingly long answer.

当我让他说出他的全名时，以免我搞砸，他给出了这个令人惊讶的长答案。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] David Kestenbaum I couldn't tell what was going on, because we were doing the interview through an interpreter.

[非英语演讲] David Kestenbaum 我不知道发生了什么，因为我们是通过翻译进行采访的。

But it turns out he was explaining how he would introduce himself as an African.

但事实证明，他正在解释他将如何介绍自己作为非洲人。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] David Kestenbaum The names of his grandparents, and their parents, and theirs.

[非英语演讲] David Kestenbaum 他祖父母的名字，他们父母的名字，还有他们的名字。

Those are the 23 generations of my grandparents, he says, 23 generations of names.

他说，那是我祖父母的 23 代人，23 代人的名字。

And yet despite all that history, in September of 2013, David decided to leave Cameroon and try to make it to Europe.

然而，尽管经历了这些历史，大卫在 2013 年 9 月还是决定离开喀麦隆并尝试前往欧洲。

He was 25 years old.

他当时25岁。

David describes the whole thing almost as if you were a kid heading out on an adventure in some old novel.

大卫描述整个事情就像你是一个在一本老小说中冒险的孩子一样。

Unlike a lot of people trying to get from Africa to Europe, he said he wasn't persecuted back home.

与许多试图从非洲前往欧洲的人不同，他说他在家乡并没有受到迫害。

He wasn't starving.

他没有挨饿。

He wasn't fleeing violence.

他并不是在逃避暴力。

He was just curious about the world and excited to see it.

他只是对这个世界感到好奇，并很高兴看到它。

He wanted to live in a place with more opportunity, so he threw some stuff in a little backpack and he hit the road.

他想住在一个有更多机会的地方，所以他把一些东西装进一个小背包里，然后就上路了。

He was well into his journey in Algeria when he first heard about the fences around Ceuta and Malilla.

当他第一次听说休达和马利利亚周围的围栏时，他正在阿尔及利亚旅行。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Because there we had internet access, and we could see how people were trying to jump this fence and all that.

[说西班牙语] 口译员因为我们可以访问互联网，我们可以看到人们如何试图跳过栅栏等等。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter At the beginning, my opinion was, well, you know, I'm a pretty brave guy.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 一开始，我的看法是，嗯，你知道，我是一个非常勇敢的人。

And when I see something like that-- I like challenges.

当我看到类似的事情时——我喜欢挑战。

I thought I would do it in one try.

我想我一次就能做到。

I'm going to take it on with a lot of optimism, because that's the type of person I am.

我会非常乐观地接受它，因为我就是这样的人。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I usually do things the first time I try them.

[说西班牙语] 口译员 我通常会在第一次尝试时就做一些事情。

I don't do them two or three times.

我不会做两三次。

So I thought this was going to be the case with this fence.

所以我认为这道栅栏就是这种情况。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] David Kestenbaum I've watched some of these videos.

[说西班牙语] David Kestenbaum 我看过其中一些视频。

There are some brutal ones-- people with their hands sliced open from the razor wire, sometimes being hit by guards.

有一些残忍的人——人们的双手被铁丝网割开，有时还被警卫殴打。

But there are ones that, if you are preparing to try something like this, might give you hope.

但如果你准备尝试这样的事情，有些可能会给你带来希望。

[SHOUTING] David Kestenbaum This one starts at a tense moment.

[喊叫] David Kestenbaum 这一切开始于一个紧张的时刻。

There are bunch of men sitting on top of the last of the fences.

有一群人坐在最后的栅栏顶上。

Below them is Spanish soil, but also the Spanish police.

他们的下面是西班牙的土地，也是西班牙的警察。

In theory, the guys should be able to drop down and apply for asylum.

理论上，这些人应该能够放弃并申请庇护。

But there are lots of reports of Spanish border guards grabbing people, unlocking a gate in the fence, and returning them to the other side.

但有很多报道称，西班牙边防人员抓人，打开栅栏门，然后将他们送回另一边。

So the men on the fence want to get down somehow, avoid the guards, and run into town.

所以栅栏上的人想以某种方式下来，避开警卫，然后跑进城。

[SHOUTING] David Kestenbaum Suddenly, one man drops down off the fence, then another.

[喊叫] David Kestenbaum 突然，一个人从栅栏上掉下来，然后是另一个人。

It's like they've got some plan.

就好像他们有什么计划一样。

And apparently they do, because the two of them link arms.

显然他们确实这么做了，因为他们两个挽着手。

Then another guy joins them and another.

然后另一个人加入了他们，还有另一个人。

They keep linking up, like it's a rugby scrum.

他们不断地联系在一起，就像橄榄球比赛一样。

At this point, the police move in they're wearing vests and helmets.

这时，警察进来了，他们穿着背心，戴着头盔。

Some have those transparent shields you see in crowd control situations.

有些有你在人群控制情况下看到的透明防护罩。

And you can see the police are now in kind of a bind.

你可以看到警察现在陷入了困境。

It's going to be hard to pry these guys apart now that they've become this giant organism.

既然这些家伙已经变成了一个巨大的有机体，就很难将它们撬开。

So the police do this thing that also seems smart.

所以警察做这件事也显得很聪明。

They form a human ring around the men to contain them.

他们在男人周围形成一个人环来围堵他们。

And for a moment, it seems like a stalemate.

一时之间，似乎陷入了僵局。

But then the scrum starts to rotate, which makes them harder to contain.

但随后混乱开始轮换，这使得他们更难控制。

And a gap opens up in the ring of police.

警察的包围圈中出现了一个缺口。

Then one guy from the scrum breaks off and starts sprinting.

然后，scrum 中的一个人停下来开始冲刺。

Then another spins off, and another.

然后另一个旋转，然后另一个。

[CHEERING] David Kestenbaum They run across this open field into town, and finally to the official immigration center where they celebrate like a team that's just captured the flag.

[欢呼] David Kestenbaum 他们穿过这片空地进城，最后到达官方移民中心，在那里他们像一支刚刚夺取旗帜的球队一样庆祝。

I don't know how many of these people were granted asylum or allowed to stay.

我不知道其中有多少人获得庇护或被允许留下来。

But can I just say there is something crazy about a system where countries build super tall, multi-layer razor wire fences that you are definitely not supposed to cross.

但我只能说，这个系统有些疯狂，各国建造了超高的多层铁丝网，你绝对不应该跨越。

But if you do cross them, well, maybe you can stay.

但如果你真的跨越了它们，那么，也许你可以留下来。

It's as if Spain is saying, this is who we want to immigrate-- people who are really good at climbing fences.

西班牙好像在说，这就是我们想要移民的人——那些真正擅长翻墙的人。

David figured he had a pretty good chance of getting over the fences.

大卫认为他有很大的机会越过栅栏。

He was young.

他还年轻。

He felt strong.

他感觉自己很坚强。

He saw them up close soon after he got to Morocco.

到达摩洛哥后不久，他就近距离地见到了他们。

He made his way to this forest where he heard people camped out before attempting to cross.

他来到这片森林，听到人们在试图穿越之前在那里露营。

You could see Malilla from there, this piece of Europe surrounded by fencing.

从那里你可以看到马利拉，这片被栅栏包围的欧洲。

They said to me, look, over there.

他们对我说，看，那边。

That's Malilla.

那是马利拉。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] David Kestenbaum In the woods, there was this whole community of people.

[西班牙语] David Kestenbaum 在树林里，有一整群人。

They'd organized themselves by country.

他们按国家组织起来。

There was a group from Mali and Gambia, Guinea, and one from his country, Cameroon.

其中一组来自马里、冈比亚、几内亚，还有一组来自他的国家喀麦隆。

He slept with them that night.

那天晚上他和他们一起睡。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And that night, it really rained.

[西班牙语] 翻译 那天晚上，真的下雨了。

And since I was new, I didn't have any place to sleep.

因为我是新来的，所以我没有地方睡觉。

And I didn't have any place to hide from all the water that was falling out of the sky.

我没有任何地方可以躲避从天而降的水。

The next night, David and a small group he'd been traveling with went to check out the fences.

第二天晚上，大卫和他同行的一小群人去检查栅栏。

But David said they didn't really know what they were doing.

但大卫说他们并不真正知道自己在做什么。

When they got there, they saw Moroccan border guards.

当他们到达那里时，他们看到了摩洛哥边境警卫。

David and the others figured, well, we'll just wait till they move.

大卫和其他人想，好吧，我们就等他们搬走吧。

But hours went by.

但几个小时过去了。

They waited until 2:00 AM, but always, there were guards.

他们一直等到凌晨 2:00，但始终都有警卫。

The next time, he had better luck.

下一次，他的运气更好了。

One of the tricks the people in the forest told him was to go in large groups.

森林里的人告诉他的诀窍之一就是一大群人去。

If you've got the numbers, they can't catch all of you.

如果你有数字，他们就抓不到你们所有人。

So this time, David goes with a big group of 200 or 300 other people.

所以这一次，大卫和一大群 200 或 300 人一起去。

It was early in the morning, 4:00 or 5:00 AM.

当时是凌晨，凌晨 4:00 或 5:00。

They run toward the fences.

他们跑向栅栏。

The first obstacle, before you can even get to the fences, is that trench.

在你到达栅栏之前，第一个障碍就是那条壕沟。

It's pretty deep, David says.

大卫说，这很深。

He drops down into it OK, but getting out is hard.

他掉进去还好，但出来却很难。

It's like six or seven feet straight up.

直立起来大约有六七英尺。

He says everyone kind of helps each other.

他说每个人都互相帮助。

One person gets up, then pulls the next one up.

一个人站起来，然后拉下一个人。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I tried to get out of there, and there were Moroccan military people who were throwing stones.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我试图离开那里，但摩洛哥军人正在扔石头。

And there was a lot of noise.

还有很多噪音。

And people were moving around, and there was blood.

人们四处走动，到处都是血。

And it was difficult to get out.

而且很难出去。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And then I was climbing up the other side.

[说西班牙语] 翻译然后我就爬上了另一边。

And then I climbed up the first barrier.

然后我爬上了第一个障碍。

And I got to the second barrier, and then I said, OK, I finished that.

我到达了第二个障碍，然后我说，好吧，我完成了。

I'm going to go to the third barrier.

我要去第三个关卡。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I don't know how to express it, but it was something strange.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我不知道如何表达，但这很奇怪。

I was thinking, I'm going to do it.

我当时想，我就去做吧。

Then I thought, I can't do it.

然后我想，我做不到。

And then I was doing it, so I said, well, this is how it's done.

然后我就这么做了，所以我说，好吧，就是这样完成的。

I'm doing it.

我正在做。

I'm doing it.

我正在做。

But I don't know how to express it.

但我不知道如何表达。

That's the truth.

这是事实。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] David Kestenbaum Did it feel like a crazy sport?

[西班牙语] David Kestenbaum 这感觉像是一项疯狂的运动吗？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Yeah, exactly.

[说西班牙语] 口译员 是的，完全正确。

That's exactly what it is, the way you put it.

事实就是如此，正如你所说的那样。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter It was a weird sport.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 这是一项奇怪的运动。

I usually think of a border wall or a fence as this thing that's supposed to stop someone.

我通常认为边界墙或栅栏是用来阻止某人的东西。

But as David was discovering, that's not how these things are actually designed.

但正如大卫发现的那样，这些东西实际上并不是这样设计的。

His opponents had a strategy too.

他的对手也有策略。

The Malilla border is an example of something called defense in depth.

马里拉边境是纵深防御的一个例子。

In the US, it's used around nuclear facilities.

在美国，它被用于核设施周围。

The idea is to have many layers.

这个想法是有很多层。

Each can be beat, but they slow you down enough so that, before you can get to the other side, the guards are there.

每个都可以被击败，但它们会减慢你的速度，以便在你到达另一边之前，守卫就在那里。

In this case, to pick you up and send you back to start.

在这种情况下，是来接您并送您回去出发。

That's what happened to David that day.

这就是那天发生在大卫身上的事。

The guards got him before he could clear the final fence, and they sent him back to Morocco.

在他能够越过最后一道栅栏之前，警卫抓住了他，并把他送回了摩洛哥。

He was frustrated, but also felt kind of good.

他很沮丧，但也感觉很好。

He'd made it to the third fence on his first try.

他第一次尝试就冲到了第三道栅栏。

David returned to the camps in the forest, which he says is OK.

大卫回到了森林里的营地，他说没关系。

But I think it's not what a lot of people would call OK.

但我认为这并不是很多人所说的“OK”。

He had to dig around in trash cans for food.

他不得不在垃圾桶里翻找食物。

And sometimes after they'd gone to sleep, the Moroccan police would come and chase them out, destroy what they'd set up.

有时他们睡着后，摩洛哥警察会过来把他们赶走，摧毁他们布置的东西。

When there was downtime, people would sometimes sit all facing the same direction and just kind of stare out at Malilla and talk about how to get past those damn fences.

当停工的时候，人们有时会面朝同一个方向坐着，只是盯着马利拉，谈论如何越过那些该死的栅栏。

There were rules that have been passed down by people who'd gone before them with the goal of not making things harder for the next people trying to cross.

有些规则是由先行者传承下来的，目的是不让下一个试图穿越的人变得更困难。

One of the rules was no weapons-- another, no cutting the fence.

其中一条规则是不能携带武器，另一条规则是不能砍断栅栏。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter We decided that it wasn't a good strategy because, at the end of the day, our goal was to be accepted by the Spaniards on the other side.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我们认为这不是一个好的策略，因为归根结底，我们的目标是被另一边的西班牙人接受。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter So we didn't want to use knives, and we couldn't cut the fence.

[说西班牙语] 翻译所以我们不想使用刀，我们也不能砍断栅栏。

They tried over and over, but it seemed impossible to beat the guards.

他们尝试了一遍又一遍，但似乎不可能打败守卫。

They had cameras that could see at night and helicopters.

他们有夜间可见的摄像机和直升机。

David met people who'd been living in the forest for four or five years who still had never made it to Europe.

大卫遇到了一些在森林里生活了四五年但仍未到达欧洲的人。

David checked out the fences around Ceuta, the other city, but again, no luck.

大卫检查了另一座城市休达周围的栅栏，但还是没有运气。

He tried 20 times, 30 times.

他尝试了20次、30次。

A year pased.

一年过去了。

At some point, it started to feel kind of crazy that this is what his life had become, trying to get over this barrier to this little piece of land.

在某些时候，他开始感觉有点疯狂，这就是他的生活，试图跨越这片小土地的障碍。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter There were times when it did appear absurd to me.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 有时我觉得这确实很荒谬。

Why am I doing this?

我为什么要这样做？

What good is this?

这有什么好处？

Especially when I experienced the failure, and I thought about just abandoning everything, and I would cry.

尤其是当我经历了失败，想到放弃一切的时候，我就会哭。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter But then you rest up two or three days.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 但是你休息了两三天。

And once again, you think in an optimistic fashion.

你再一次以乐观的方式思考。

And I got my energy back.

我又恢复了能量。

I wondered what all this looked like from the other side of the fence, to live in one of these cities five or seven square miles in size with fences around it, where in some years, you get people rushing up every few weeks, this whole mass of people outside trying to get in.

我想知道从栅栏的另一边看，这一切是什么样子，生活在这些五七平方英里大小、周围有栅栏的城市中，在某些年里，每隔几周就会有人涌进来，一大群人在外面试图进入。

There's this one photo from the Spanish side of two people playing golf.

这是一张在西班牙一侧拍摄的两个人打高尔夫球的照片。

They're standing on this lush green fairway, palm trees.

他们站在这郁郁葱葱的绿色球道上，棕榈树。

One of them, a woman, is teeing off in a bright white golf outfit.

其中一位女士，穿着亮白色的高尔夫球服正在开球。

And right behind them, there's the fence.

在他们身后，就是栅栏。

And on top of the fence, about a dozen people straddling it.

而在栅栏顶上，大约有十几个人跨在栅栏上。

I couldn't find any surveys of how people in the towns felt about the fences.

我找不到任何关于镇上人们对栅栏感觉如何的调查。

But one journalist who lives in Malilla told me that photo is kind of the way it is for a lot of people.

但一位住在马里拉的记者告诉我，照片对很多人来说就是这样。

They're used to it now.

他们现在已经习惯了。

When the fences started being built in the '90s, some people thought they were ugly or sad.

当围栏在 90 年代开始修建时，一些人认为它们很丑陋或令人悲伤。

But then the fences became something else.

但后来栅栏就变成了别的东西。

They became invisible.

他们变得隐形了。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter It's something more than a fence.

[说西班牙语] 口译员 这不仅仅是栅栏。

I know it may seem silly, but--

我知道这可能看起来很愚蠢，但是——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter There is something mystical in this fence.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 这栅栏里有一些神秘的东西。

I've seen people who, when they get in front of the fence, they can't move.

我见过有人，当他们走到栅栏前时，他们就动弹不得。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I imagine that, if there are people from throughout the world who get together to make a fence, there must be a spirit inside the fence that tries to prevent things.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我想，如果有来自世界各地的人们聚集在一起筑起栅栏，栅栏内一定有一种精神试图阻止事情发生。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter It's really something very powerful.

[说西班牙语] 口译员 这确实是非常强大的东西。

It's not just a fence.

这不仅仅是栅栏。

Even a fence with a spirit in it is still a fence.

即使是有灵魂的栅栏仍然是栅栏。

And as with a lot of fences, if you follow them far enough, there is a place where they end.

就像许多栅栏一样，如果你沿着它们走得足够远，就会有一个终点。

Malilla and Ceuta are not totally surrounded.

马利利亚和休达并未完全被包围。

They're on the coast.

他们在海岸上。

And where the fences hit the water, they stop.

当栅栏碰到水面时，它们就会停下来。

They go out a ways into the water, but then stop.

他们向水中走了一段路，但随后停了下来。

These places, of course, are very heavily guarded.

当然，这些地方戒备森严。

And in the previous year, a bunch of people had died trying to cross this way.

去年，有一群人在试图穿越这条路时丧生。

The Spanish police used tear gas and rubber bullets.

西班牙警方使用了催泪瓦斯和橡皮子弹。

At least 15 people drowned.

至少有15人溺水身亡。

And David can't swim.

大卫不会游泳。

But one day, in the forest around Ceuta, he runs into a group of people who want to try this place where the fence ends.

但有一天，在休达周围的森林里，他遇到了一群想要尝试围栏尽头这个地方的人。

By this time, he's been at it for a while.

到这个时候，他已经这么做了一段时间了。

He knows the way.

他认识路。

He helps lead them there.

他帮助带领他们到达那里。

There's no trench here and only a single fence.

这里没有壕沟，只有一道栅栏。

And so when it's dark out, David and a group sneak up to it through this wooded area.

因此，当天黑时，大卫和一群人穿过这片树林偷偷接近它。

There are over a hundred of them, and they start running along the fence, trying to get to the beach and finally where it extends into the water.

它们有一百多个，它们开始沿着栅栏奔跑，试图到达海滩，最后到达延伸到水中的地方。

When they reach the beach, some people start trying to climb the fence.

当他们到达海滩时，一些人开始尝试爬过栅栏。

Guards are gathering, but David notices they aren't doing the thing that he's had problems with in the past.

警卫正在聚集，但大卫注意到他们没有做他过去遇到问题的事情。

They aren't hitting people's fingers as they climb.

它们在攀爬时不会撞到人们的手指。

So up he goes.

于是他就往上走。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I put one finger on, and I put one hand on.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我把一根手指放在上面，我把一只手放在上面。

Then I put one leg up.

然后我把一条腿抬起来。

And I got up to the point where there were the knives.

我走到有刀的地方。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And I tried to get higher up, but these knives we're grabbing at my clothes.

[说西班牙语] 口译员 我试图爬得更高，但我们用这些刀子抓住我的衣服。

And I had a backpack on, so I had to go down.

而且我还背着背包，所以我必须下去。

But not all the way down.

但并不是一路下来。

David and the others stay on the fence.

大卫和其他人保持观望态度。

They're just below the very top, maybe 18 feet off the ground.

它们就在顶部下方，距离地面大约 18 英尺。

And they start clambering sideways, horizontally along the fence trying to get to the water.

他们开始沿着栅栏向侧面、水平方向攀爬，试图到达水中。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And there were two kids in front of us.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我们前面有两个孩子。

One of them was really young.

其中一个人真的很年轻。

He was like 13 or 14.

他大概13或14岁。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And someone behind me said, hurry up, hurry up.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我身后有人说，快点，快点。

And I said, look, the boys in front of us cannot go fast.

我说，看，我们前面的男孩走不快。

We've got to go step by step.

我们必须一步一步走。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter If we make it to the water, we'll be OK.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 如果我们能到达水里，那就没问题了。

They get to the end of the fence.

他们到达栅栏的尽头。

There are two people ahead of David.

大卫前面有两个人。

The first one jumps down.

第一个跳下来。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And he fell into the water on the Moroccan side.

[西班牙语] 翻译 他掉进了摩洛哥一侧的水中。

And he was immediately picked up by the Moroccan soldiers.

他立刻就被摩洛哥士兵救了起来。

They picked him up and put him in a boat.

他们把他抱起来并把他放在船上。

Which seemed bad.

这看起来很糟糕。

A Moroccan guard would keep him in Morocco.

一名摩洛哥警卫将把他留在摩洛哥。

The next guy is the kid in front of David.

下一个人就是大卫前面的那个孩子。

He jumps down onto the rocks at the base of the fence.

他跳到栅栏底部的岩石上。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And very quickly, hit the ground.

[西班牙语] 翻译 很快，就落地了。

And as soon as he hit the ground, the civil guard picked him up and put him aside.

他一落地，民警就把他扶了起来，放到一边。

David is next in line, the third to try.

大卫是下一个尝试的人，也是第三个尝试的人。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter At the moment that I saw the civil guard people moving two or three steps away, I went down immediately, just like the kid did.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 当我看到国民警卫队的人移开两三步时，我立即下去，就像那孩子一样。

But as soon as I hit the ground--

但当我落地时——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I went right into the water.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我直接跳进了水里。

Then others make it into the water.

然后其他人进入水中。

They sit on this big rock.

他们坐在这块大石头上。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter The little kid, who the police, the civil guard, had picked up and already had his hands tied behind his back, tried to escape and make it into the water.

[西班牙语] 翻译 那个小孩被警察、国民警卫队抱起，双手被反绑在背后，试图逃跑并进入水中。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And just to show, one of us was brave enough to go into the water, and he saved him and brought him over to the stone.

[西班牙语] 口译员 为了表明这一点，我们中的一个人足够勇敢，跳进了水里，他救了他，并把他带到了石头边。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter So then we were singing and shouting.

[说西班牙语] 翻译然后我们就唱歌、喊叫。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter The civil guard was saying--

[西班牙语] 翻译 国民警卫队说——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Get out of the water.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 从水里出来。

Come out of the water, and nothing's going to happen to you.

从水里出来，你就不会发生任何事情。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And there were many negotiations to get us out of the water.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 为了让我们脱离困境，进行了很多谈判。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And we didn't want to get out.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我们不想出去。

This goes on for hours.

这持续了几个小时。

They're cold, but singing and shouting, waiting for the city to wake up, hoping someone will come and help them-- the Red Cross, journalists.

他们很冷，但唱歌、喊叫，等待这座城市苏醒，希望有人能来帮助他们——红十字会、记者。

Eventually, they do get out of the water.

最终，他们确实从水里出来了。

They're taken to a police station and fingerprinted.

他们被带到警察局并采集指纹。

David figured he'd be sent back to Morocco like all the other times.

大卫认为他会像其他时候一样被送回摩洛哥。

The police station was right there on the border.

警察局就在边境上。

But it didn't happen.

但它没有发生。

Instead, someone got him some food and a place to sleep.

相反，有人给他提供了一些食物和一个睡觉的地方。

After almost two years of attempts, he'd made it.

经过近两年的尝试，他终于成功了。

He felt joy, like, is this really happening?

他心中一喜，心想，这真的是真的吗？

For a couple of days-- and then he felt something else.

过了几天——然后他有了别的感觉。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter When I realized that I had made it, it was like a vacuum.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 当我意识到我已经成功时，一切就像真空一样。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter That's the truth.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 这是事实。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter When we are in Morocco, we think that whenever I manage to get there, I'm going to be very happy.

[说西班牙语] 口译员 当我们在摩洛哥时，我们认为无论何时我能够到达那里，我都会非常高兴。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter But once you make it--

[说西班牙语] 翻译 但是一旦你做到了——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter --you don't feel anything.

[说西班牙语] 翻译——你没有任何感觉。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter The feeling ends.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 感觉结束了。

David is in Madrid now.

大卫现在在马德里。

In a little bit, he'll be able to apply for residency so he can work.

过一会儿，他就可以申请居留权，这样他就可以工作了。

After almost two years thinking about the fence, he doesn't anymore.

在考虑了栅栏近两年后，他不再考虑了。

It was just a barrier, one among many.

这只是一个障碍，只是众多障碍之一。

David Kestenbaum is one of the producers of our program.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆是我们节目的制作人之一。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass David from that story is trying to make it as a musician.

[说西班牙语]那个故事中的艾拉·格拉斯·大卫正在努力成为一名音乐家。

He wrote this song about the border fence.

他写了这首关于边境围栏的歌曲。

Coming up, the wall that is 150 miles long and completely invisible from one of its sides.

出现了，一堵 150 英里长、从一侧完全看不见的墙。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, "The Walls." We have stories from around the globe looking at the way that life morphs and adapts around any wall that gets built anywhere.

今天的节目是《墙》。我们有来自世界各地的故事，讲述生命在任何地方建造的墙壁周围的演变和适应方式。

A version of today's program was first broadcast last year, but we thought we would update and bring it back with our government shut down over a wall.

今天节目的一个版本于去年首次播出，但我们认为我们会更新并将其带回，因为我们的政府因隔离墙而关闭。

And one thing that I've found myself thinking about a lot these last few weeks has been the president's promise to have Mexico pay for the wall.

过去几周我经常思考的一件事是总统承诺让墨西哥支付修建隔离墙的费用。

And I think a lot of people don't remember that that just wasn't a thing that was said in rallies.

我认为很多人不记得这不是在集会上说过的话。

There was an actual step by step plan on how to do it.

关于如何做到这一点，有一个实际的逐步计划。

And I've wondered, whatever happened to that?

我想知道，到底发生了什么？

It's the long forgotten plan from the Trump campaign.

这是特朗普竞选团队长期被遗忘的计划。

We talk now like this plan never even existed.

我们现在谈论这个计划就好像这个计划从未存在过一样。

This is Robert Costa, national political reporter for the Washington Post.

我是罗伯特·科斯塔，《华盛顿邮报》国家政治记者。

He says that when he and Bob Woodward asked then-candidate Trump in 2016 for details about exactly how he would pay for his wall, to their surprise, two days later, they got this step by step memo outlining how it would happen, written, he says, by Stephen Miller, now one of the president's top aides.

他说，当他和鲍勃·伍德沃德在 2016 年向当时的候选人特朗普询问他将如何支付修建隔离墙的具体费用时，令他们惊讶的是，两天后，他们收到了一份概述了如何实施的分步备忘录，他说，这份备忘录是由现任总统高级助手之一的史蒂芬·米勒 (Stephen Miller) 撰写的。

This is something that the Trump campaign was under intense pressure during the primary season to prove that, in some way, it had a serious proposal for getting Mexico to pay for the wall.

这是特朗普竞选团队在初选期间承受着巨大压力的事情，他们需要以某种方式证明，他们有一个严肃的提案，要求墨西哥支付修建隔离墙的费用。

And this is what they came up with.

这就是他们想出来的。

Here's the plan.

这是计划。

They say that under the Patriot Act, the president has powers to do all kinds of things, including, if he wants to, he can make it impossible for undocumented Mexicans living here to wire money home to Mexico.

他们说，根据《爱国者法案》，总统有权做各种事情，包括如果他愿意的话，他可以让居住在这里的无证墨西哥人无法将钱汇回墨西哥。

And it's a lot of money, the memo says, $24 billion a year.

备忘录称，这是一笔巨款，每年 240 亿美元。

The actual number is probably much smaller than that, but still in the billions, significant to the Mexican economy.

实际数字可能比这个数字小得多，但仍然有数十亿，这对墨西哥经济来说意义重大。

Mexico, as the memo notes, would not like this.

正如备忘录所指出的，墨西哥不会喜欢这样。

And so the memo says we would tell the Mexican government that it could avoid all this unpleasantness if it would just send us $5 to $10 billion for the wall.

所以备忘录说，我们会告诉墨西哥政府，如果墨西哥政府愿意为隔离墙提供 5 到 100 亿美元，它就可以避免所有这些不愉快的事情。

And then we won't make the change to our regulations.

然后我们就不会改变我们的规定。

We will let people wire money home to Mexico.

我们将让人们将钱汇回墨西哥。

It said in typical language by President Trump, it's, quote, "an easy decision for Mexico to make," and that all they need to do is make a, quote, "one-time payment of $5 to 10 billion for the wall," and then they could walk away.

它用特朗普总统的典型语言说，这是“墨西哥做出的一个容易的决定”，他们所需要做的就是“一次性支付 5 到 100 亿美元用于修建隔离墙”，然后他们就可以走开。

If that didn't work, the memo lists other threats that we could make.

如果这不起作用，备忘录列出了我们可以做出的其他威胁。

Trade tariffs-- we could cancel work and tourist visas.

贸易关税——我们可以取消工作和旅游签证。

We could charge higher visa fees, all with the idea that this would force Mexico to cough up billions for the wall.

我们可以收取更高的签证费，这样做的目的是迫使墨西哥为隔离墙花费数十亿美元。

Do we know if they tried to do any of this once they got into office?

我们是否知道他们上任后是否尝试过这样做？

We're actually poking around about that at the Washington Post.

我们实际上正在《华盛顿邮报》上探讨这个问题。

It seems like John Kelly, when he was head of DHS, and Kirstjen Nielsen, now head of DHS, they have not pursued this kind of policy to an extent.

时任国土安全部负责人的约翰·凯利（John Kelly）和现任国土安全部负责人克尔斯詹·尼尔森（Kirstjen Nielsen）似乎并没有在一定程度上推行这种政策。

But the idea that it's floating around in Trump circles remains.

但特朗普圈子里仍然流传着这种想法。

Bannon always would hover it out there in 2017 when he was in the White House as something that would maybe be brought up.

2017 年，当班农入主白宫时，他总是会把这个问题当作可能会被提起的事情。

And it could still be brought up.

而且它仍然可以被提出。

He believes he has sweeping executive authority to do this sort of thing.

他相信他拥有广泛的行政权力来做这类事情。

There have been bills in Congress to do a more straightforward version of this by just taxing the money that gets wired to Mexico and do some of the other things that the memo suggests.

国会已提出法案，通过对汇往墨西哥的资金征税并采取备忘录建议的其他一些措施来实现更直接的版本。

There was a bill in 2017, another in 2018.

2017 年有一项法案，2018 年又有一项法案。

Neither picked up many co-sponsors or ever got to a vote.

两人都没有获得很多共同提案国，也没有进行投票。

On Friday, the president said that he might declare a state of emergency to pay for his border wall, which would give him a bunch of options, a bunch of powers, none of them apparently related to this memo or Mexico paying for the wall.

周五，总统表示，他可能会宣布进入紧急状态，以支付边境墙的费用，这将给他一系列选择、一系列权力，但这些选择显然与这份备忘录或墨西哥支付边境墙费用无关。

Presumably, the memo still sits there somewhere in the White House, untouched, ready for action, Plan A.

据推测，这份备忘录仍然放在白宫的某个地方，原封不动，准备采取行动，即 A 计划。

Act Two, "No One Has Seen Them Made or Heard Them Made."

第二幕，“没有人见过或听说过它们。”

Of all the walls all over the world that we learned about for today's program, this next one is the most mysterious-- a wall that may or may not even exist.

在我们今天的节目中了解的世界各地的所有墙壁中，下一堵墙是最神秘的——一堵可能存在也可能不存在的墙。

Brian Reed looked into it.

布莱恩·里德对此进行了调查。

I read about this possible wall in a blog post.

我在一篇博客文章中读到了有关这堵可能的墙的信息。

It's a travel blog by an Australian guy, and he tells the story of a bizarre tour he took in North Korea.

这是一个澳大利亚人的旅游博客，他讲述了他在朝鲜进行的一次离奇旅行的故事。

The post is titled, "North Korea's Loch Ness Monster, The Concrete Wall."

这篇文章的标题是“朝鲜的尼斯湖水怪，混凝土墙”。

For decades, the North Korean government has complained about the huge Concrete Wall that divides North and South Korea, a wall, it claims, that South Korea put up at the urging of the United States as a permanent barrier to reunification, a wall that's been a source of anger for the North Koreans for years.

几十年来，朝鲜政府一直抱怨分隔朝鲜和韩国的巨大混凝土墙，它声称，这堵墙是韩国在美国的敦促下修建的，作为统一的永久障碍，多年来，这堵墙一直是朝鲜人愤怒的根源。

For them, it's a symbol of the duplicity and bad will of South Korea.

对他们来说，这是韩国口是心非和恶意的象征。

One peculiar thing about this wall, though, North Korea says it can only be seen from the northern side, that you can't see it from the south.

不过，这堵墙有一个奇特之处，朝鲜表示只能从北侧看到它，从南侧看不到它。

It also doesn't show up on Google Earth or satellite images.

它也不会出现在谷歌地球或卫星图像上。

But in North Korea, there's a place where tourists can go see it.

但在朝鲜，有一个地方可以让游客去看。

That's where the blogger went.

那是博主去的地方。

According to the post, he arrived at a small bunker where a North Korean colonel delivers a whole lecture about the Concrete Wall.

据帖子称，他到达了一个小掩体，一名朝鲜上校在那里发表了有关混凝土墙的完整演讲。

He stands there in uniform with a pointer stick-- there's a photo of this on the blog-- with a big mural behind him of the wall snaking along the border.

他穿着制服，拿着一根教鞭站在那里——博客上有一张照片——他身后有一幅大壁画，画的是沿着边界蜿蜒的墙壁。

Though, curiously, it's not a photograph of the wall.

不过，奇怪的是，这不是墙上的照片。

It's a painting.

这是一幅画。

The colonel runs through the wall's dimensions, which are listed on the mural, as well as geometric diagrams demonstrating the ingenious engineering that makes it only visible from the North.

上校贯穿了墙壁的尺寸，这些尺寸列在壁画上，还有几何图表，展示了巧妙的工程，使得它只能从北方看到。

It's built into a hill, so from the South it just looks like green land.

它建在山上，所以从南边看去就像一片绿地。

It's invisible.

它是看不见的。

Which, the colonel explains, allows South Korea and the United States to claim that there isn't a wall between North and South Korea, which is exactly what those countries say.

上校解释说，这使得韩国和美国可以声称朝鲜和韩国之间没有隔离墙，而这正是这些国家所说的。

And then, the colonel invites the tour group outside to see for themselves.

然后，上校邀请旅行团到外面去看看。

The blogger is handed a pair of binoculars.

博主收到了一副双筒望远镜。

The blogger writes that he half expects there to be a stencil of a wall taped on the lenses when he looked through.

这位博主写道，当他看过去时，他一半期望镜头上会贴上一面墙的模板。

There isn't.

没有。

But as he stares out from the observation deck into the DMZ, or Demilitarized Zone, the four kilometer-wide stretch of land that buffers North Korea from South, he does see something.

但当他从观景台凝视非军事区（DMZ）——这片宽达四公里的土地，将朝鲜与韩国隔离开来时，他确实看到了一些东西。

He includes a photo he took of it.

他附上了一张他拍摄的照片。

Could this be what the North Koreans were talking about, he writes?

他写道，这可能就是朝鲜人正在谈论的内容吗？

Lean in and see what you make of it.

向前倾身，看看你能从中得到什么。

I did lean in.

我确实靠进去了。

And honestly, I could not tell what the hell was going on in this photo.

老实说，我不知道这张照片到底发生了什么。

It's super blurry, taken from kilometers away on a hazy-looking day.

这是在雾蒙蒙的日子里从几公里外拍摄的照片，非常模糊。

There are shrubs and hills in the DMZ, and then, yeah, some type of brownish structure on top of the hills.

非军事区有灌木和山丘，是的，山顶上有某种棕色结构。

But it's really hard to make out.

但确实很难弄清楚。

It is like one of those Loch Ness photos.

它就像尼斯湖照片中的一张。

This blog post confused me.

这篇博文让我很困惑。

Was there a wall between North and South Korea, or not?

朝鲜和韩国之间是否存在隔离墙？

The news media seemed unequivocal on this question.

新闻媒体对这个问题似乎毫不含糊。

The reports I read said the wall's not real.

我读到的报道说这堵墙不是真的。

One headline from Reuters-- "North Korea asks South to tear down imaginary wall."

路透社的一则头条新闻——“朝鲜要求韩国拆除想象中的隔离墙。”

The blogger didn't want to be interviewed.

该博主不愿接受采访。

So I ended up on the phone instead with a tour guide, named Simon Cockerell, who runs one of the most popular tour companies that takes people into North Korea.

所以我最终打电话给了一位导游，名叫西蒙·科克雷尔（Simon Cockerell），他经营着最受欢迎的旅游公司之一，带人们进入朝鲜。

Simon says he's been in North Korea more than 160 times.

西蒙说他已经去过朝鲜 160 多次。

So I've been even nearly to the Concrete Wall itself.

所以我什至已经接近混凝土墙本身了。

You've been nearly to the Concrete Wall itself?

你已经接近混凝土墙了吗？

Yes, that's right.

是的，没错。

Brian Reed So it is a wall.

布莱恩·里德 所以它是一堵墙。

It is a thing.

这是一件事。

It exists.

它存在。

You're talking about it as if it exists.

你谈论它就好像它存在一样。

Simon says he's done that whole tour the Australian blogger did.

西蒙说他已经完成了这位澳大利亚博主的整个巡演。

I would have to guess, maybe 40 or 50 times.

我不得不猜测，也许有 40 或 50 次。

Did you ever, in any of those viewings, question whether what you were looking at was a wall?

在这些观看中，您是否曾经怀疑过您所看到的是否是一堵墙？

I honestly don't think I did.

老实说，我不认为我做到了。

I mean, it's not a hologram.

我的意思是，这不是全息图。

I mean, there's probably a semantic case to be made that it's not a wall because, on the southern side of it, it's a hill.

我的意思是，可能有一个语义案例表明它不是一堵墙，因为在它的南侧，它是一座小山。

And on the northern side of it, it's a wall.

在它的北边，是一堵墙。

So it has the characteristics of a wall, if you're looking at it from the North, which after all is the only side from which you can see it.

所以它具有墙的特征，如果你从北面看它，毕竟北面是你能看到它的唯一一面。

What are the characteristics of a wall, as you see them?

在您看来，墙有哪些特征？

It rises at a 90 degree angle from the ground, and it creates a barrier between where you are and the place on the other side of the wall.

它与地面呈 90 度角升起，在您所在位置和墙另一侧的位置之间形成一道屏障。

It's, at the very least, a wall-like object.

它至少是一个像墙一样的物体。

There's a headline I want to read you from a journalist, Jon Herskovitz, who was based in Seoul for years and followed North Korea.

我想给你们读一个记者乔恩·赫斯科维茨 (Jon Herskovitz) 写的头条新闻，他常驻首尔多年，跟踪朝鲜情况。

I know Jon Herskovitz.

我认识乔恩·赫斯科维茨。

Brian Reed Oh, you know Jon?

布莱恩·里德 哦，你认识乔恩吗？

OK, he wrote this article.

好吧，这篇文章是他写的。

I believe this was back in 2007, in Reuters.

我相信这是 2007 年路透社的报道。

The headline is, "One of the greatest hindrances to tearing down the wall is that it doesn't exist."

标题是：“拆除隔离墙的最大障碍之一是它不存在。”

Mm-hm.

嗯嗯。

Brian Reed What do you make of that headline?

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）你对这个标题有何看法？

It's poetic.

很有诗意。

It sounds good.

听起来不错。

It's just not true.

这不是真的。

Really?

真的吗？

So it's just straight up not true in your eyes.

所以这在你眼里是不真实的。

It's not really "in my eyes." It's sort of manifestly untrue.

这并不是真正的“在我眼中”。这显然是不真实的。

Yeah, Jon is 100% wrong about that.

是的，乔恩在这一点上百分百错误。

He said something to the effect of "Jon is 100% wrong."

他说了一些大意是“乔恩百分百错了”的话。

Ugh.

啊。

Brian Reed That "ugh" is Reuters journalist, reporter in Korea for five years, and author of the article with that headline, Jon Herskovitz.

布赖恩·里德（Brian Reed）那个“呃”是路透社记者，在韩国工作了五年的记者，也是该标题文章的作者乔恩·赫斯科维茨（Jon Herskovitz）。

And he sticks to his guns-- no wall.

他坚持自己的立场——没有墙。

I've been to the border numerous times and also have crossed through the DMZ four times.

我去过边境很多次，也四次穿过非军事区。

And did you have to traverse a wall at any point?

你是否必须在任何时候穿过一堵墙？

No. I had to go through some razor wire and boom gates, but there was no wall to traverse.

不，我必须穿过一些刀片刺网和栅栏门，但没有墙可以穿越。

And when you looked left and right as you were crossing, did you see a wall anywhere?

当你过马路时左右看看，有没有看到一堵墙？

All that said, Jon may have been to the border a bunch of times, but he has not been to the observation point in the North that the blogger and Simon went to.

话虽如此，乔恩可能去过边境很多次，但他没有去过博主和西蒙去过的北部观察点。

He hasn't tried to view the wall from North Korea, which is convenient.

他没有尝试从朝鲜观看隔离墙，这很方便。

So the fact that North Korea says you can't see the wall from the South, which is where you were looking for the wall--

事实上，朝鲜说你从南方看不到隔离墙，而这正是你寻找隔离墙的地方——

Yes.

是的。

Brian Reed That doesn't make you wonder if maybe there's a wall?

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）：这不会让你怀疑是否有一堵墙？

No, it doesn't, because they are very specific about what they have described.

不，事实并非如此，因为他们所描述的内容非常具体。

They describe it very distinctly as five to eight meters tall, 19 meters thick, and stretches from one end of the peninsula to the other.

他们非常清楚地描述它高5到8米，厚19米，从半岛的一端延伸到另一端。

Jon says it'd be hard to miss a giant concrete barrier that's 62 feet thick, several stories high, running for more than 150 miles across the Korean peninsula.

乔恩说，很难错过一座 62 英尺厚、几层楼高、横跨朝鲜半岛 150 多英里的巨型混凝土屏障。

In the decades this wall's supposedly been around, someone would have bumped into it or glimpsed it on satellite.

据说这堵墙已经存在了几十年，有人会撞到它或在卫星上瞥见它。

I told Jon I'd actually just talked to someone who says they've glimpsed it with their own eyes 40 or more times, the tour guide, Simon.

我告诉乔恩，实际上我刚刚和一个自称已经亲眼目睹了 40 多次的人交谈过，他就是导游西蒙。

I'm guessing that he probably saw one of these tank barriers.

我猜他可能看到了其中一个坦克屏障。

Tank barriers, or anti-tank barriers-- Jon admits that these do exist in the DMZ between North and South Korea.

坦克屏障，或反坦克屏障——乔恩承认，朝鲜和韩国之间的非军事区确实存在这些屏障。

South Korea's also copped to this.

韩国也遇到了这种情况。

They're tall.

他们很高。

They're big.

它们很大。

You can't walk through them.

你无法穿过它们。

They may even be made of concrete.

它们甚至可能是由混凝土制成的。

But they do not come close to spanning the entire length of the peninsula, like North Korea claims.

但它们并没有像朝鲜声称的那样横跨整个半岛。

Simon, the tour guide, admits he's only ever seen the wall from one spot.

导游西蒙承认他只在一个地方见过这堵墙。

He doesn't know if it stretches the entire peninsula.

他不知道它是否延伸了整个半岛。

He only knows what he knows, which is that claiming there's no wall, to him, is absurd.

他只知道他所知道的，那就是声称没有墙对他来说是荒谬的。

It's probably a tank barrier, as well.

这也可能是一个坦克屏障。

I mean, what's the purpose of a wall?

我的意思是，墙的用途是什么？

Keep something out, or keep something in.

保留一些东西，或者保留一些东西。

And yeah, tanks are a thing.

是的，坦克是一件事。

I think an anti-tank barrier can also be described as being a wall.

我认为反坦克屏障也可以被描述为一堵墙。

It's like going to the Great Wall of China, an anti-invading forces barrier.

这就像去中国的长城一样，是一个反侵略力量的屏障。

Hadrian's Wall is a wall, not just an anti-Scots barrier.

哈德良长城是一堵墙，而不仅仅是一道反苏格兰人的屏障。

I mean, what's the difference?

我的意思是，有什么区别？

It might seem silly to get into a semantic debate over the meaning of the word "wall," but that's where we are.

对“墙”一词的含义进行语义辩论似乎很愚蠢，但这就是我们的处境。

When it comes to walls, apparently semantics matter.

当谈到墙壁时，显然语义很重要。

Jon pointed out to me that the Demilitarized Zone between North and South Korea is probably the most fortified border in the world.

乔恩向我指出，朝鲜和韩国之间的非军事区可能是世界上最戒备森严的边界。

There's razor wire fence on either side of it that does stretch across the entire peninsula.

两侧都有铁丝网，横跨整个半岛。

There are landmines everywhere inside.

里面到处都是地雷。

North and South Korea have about 2 million troops on either edge, with artillery and missiles and air forces at the ready.

朝鲜和韩国在两边各部署了约200万军队，炮兵、导弹和空军已做好准备。

This border does not need a concrete wall to stop people from crossing it or attacking, and yet the North Koreans felt the need to invent one anyway.

这条边界不需要混凝土墙来阻止人们越过或攻击，但朝鲜人觉得无论如何都需要发明一堵墙。

It needed to be a wall.

它需要是一堵墙。

Even if it doesn't do much to actually stop people, even if it's imaginary, calling it a wall makes a difference.

即使它实际上对阻止人们没有多大作用，即使它是想象的，称其为墙还是有区别的。

Brian Reed is the senior producer of our program and the host of the podcast S-Town.

布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 是我们节目的高级制作人，也是播客 S-Town 的主持人。

Act Three, "He Is All Pine, and I Am Apple Orchard."

第三幕，“他全是松树，我是苹果园。”

Our next story takes place at the border between Pakistan and India.

我们的下一个故事发生在巴基斯坦和印度之间的边境。

Nearly 2,000 miles, the border is heavily patrolled, lit at night, fenced in parts, a border between two countries that have gone to war four times-- 1947, 1965, 1971, and 1999.

这条边境线全长近 2,000 英里，巡逻人员严密，夜间灯火通明，部分地区用栅栏围起来，这是两国之间的边界，这两个国家曾在 1947 年、1965 年、1971 年和 1999 年爆发过四次战争。

It is still tense between India and Pakistan.

印度和巴基斯坦之间的关系仍然紧张。

Each has nuclear weapons.

每个人都拥有核武器。

And there's only one road on that long, long border where you can cross from one country into the other, and that's in a town called Wagah, at a place they call the Berlin Wall of Asia.

在那条漫长的边界上，只有一条道路可以让你从一个国家穿越到另一个国家，那就是一个叫瓦加的小镇，那里被称为亚洲柏林墙。

Mariya Karimjee grew up in Pakistan.

玛丽亚·卡里姆吉在巴基斯坦长大。

And the thing that she knew about Wagah was that they do this flag lowering ceremony there.

她对瓦加赫的了解是，他们在那里举行降旗仪式。

It happens every day at sundown.

它每天都会在日落时分发生。

Soldiers from both sides of the border do this elaborate, stylized, choreographed performance.

来自边境两侧的士兵进行了这场精心设计、风格化、精心编排的表演。

Here's Mariya.

这是玛丽亚。

As a kid, I only knew the bare bones of what happened at Wagah.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我只知道瓦加发生的事情的大概内容。

I knew there was some kind of marching, flags being lowered, a handshake.

我知道有某种游行、降旗、握手等活动。

It's the handshake, the idea of the handshake, that got me.

正是握手，握手的想法吸引了我。

An Indian soldier walks right up to the border and shakes a Pakistani soldier's hand.

一名印度士兵径直走到边境，与一名巴基斯坦士兵握手。

I loved it.

我喜欢它。

It seemed so sweet.

看起来很甜蜜。

I'd always liked it whenever there was anything on TV showing our two countries getting along.

每当电视上出现我们两国相处融洽的画面时，我总是很喜欢。

There'd be news reports of soldiers exchanging treats during religious holidays, standing across from one another with their comical wax mustaches raised in a smile.

新闻报道称，士兵们在宗教节日期间互相交换礼物，他们面对面站着，滑稽的蜡胡子微笑着扬起。

I saw a commercial in which border security officers stationed at Wagah shared a soda across the border.

我看到一则广告，其中驻扎在瓦加的边境安全官员在边境分享一杯苏打水。

I liked the idea of these soldiers as friends, a border where everyone was chummy and spent a lot of time together.

我喜欢这些士兵作为朋友的想法，在边界上每个人都很亲密，并且花了很多时间在一起。

I never actually went there as a kid.

我小时候从未真正去过那里。

My family and I moved to Texas when I was 11, and I lived in the US on and off since then.

我 11 岁时，我和家人搬到了德克萨斯州，从那时起我就断断续续地住在美国。

Last year, my mother and I went to Wagah for the first time.

去年，我和妈妈第一次去瓦加。

It was not what I expected.

这不是我所期望的。

I knew there'd be goosestepping.

我就知道会有正步。

But if you've never seen a goosestep, nothing can really prepare you for a formation of tall Pakistani men, a dozen of them, in black military uniforms, handlebar mustaches, and turbans topped with large pleated bands swinging their legs up in unison without bending at the knee, and without missing a beat, quickly doing it again on the other foot.

但如果你从未见过正步，那么没有什么能让你真正准备好面对一队高大的巴基斯坦男人，他们有十几个人，穿着黑色军装，留着八字胡，头戴大褶带，双腿一致地向上摆动，膝盖不弯曲，没有错过任何一个节拍，另一只脚很快又做同样的动作。

And again, it's a march.

再说一遍，这是一次游行。

It's impressive.

令人印象深刻。

[BOOTS CLICKING] That's the crack of soldier's heels as they strike the ground.

[靴子敲击声] 那是士兵脚后跟着地时发出的声音。

Then they switch to sky high kicks, their arms aggressively swinging to this exaggerated marching, looking a little like willful, frustrated toddlers.

然后他们转向高空踢腿，手臂随着这种夸张的行进动作剧烈摆动，看起来有点像任性、沮丧的幼儿。

Someone on a PA leads the group in a series of chants.

扩音器上的某个人带领大家唱出一系列的口号。

[SHOUTING] Pakistan, Pakistan.

[喊叫]巴基斯坦，巴基斯坦。

Pakistan is our home.

巴基斯坦是我们的家。

Pakistan is our home.

巴基斯坦是我们的家。

The gates to the Indian side were closed.

印度一侧的大门已关闭。

But over there, I know the Indian soldiers were doing the same choreography, same goosesteps, same high kicks.

但在那里，我知道印度士兵正在做同样的舞蹈，同样的正步，同样的高踢腿。

They also look nearly identical to Pakistan's soldiers-- military uniforms and shiny black boots with turban hats.

他们看起来也与巴基斯坦士兵几乎一模一样——军装和闪亮的黑色靴子，戴着头巾。

The two sides rehearse together.

双方一起排练。

I like to picture that, them learning the steps, one Indian soldier asking a Pakistani soldier to go over the ending one more time, another showing off a new stretch he learned to loosen up his glutes, a frustrated stage manager counting angrily, "5, 6, 7, 8, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]."

我喜欢想象这样的场景，他们学习舞步，一名印度士兵要求一名巴基斯坦士兵再一遍一遍结尾，另一名士兵展示他学会的放松臀肌的新伸展动作，一名沮丧的舞台监督愤怒地数着，“5、6、7、8，[非英语演讲]。”

The ceremony started in 1959 as an act of brotherhood and friendship between the two countries.

该仪式始于1959年，是两国兄弟情谊的体现。

And before visiting, I assumed that people came here to celebrate that.

在访问之前，我假设人们来这里是为了庆祝这一点。

But in reality, the petty rivalries between the countries play out right in front of you.

但实际上，国家之间的琐碎竞争就在你眼前上演。

Pakistan recruits their tallest, brawniest men, soldiers that are 6 feet or taller in a country where the average height for men is 5' 5".

巴基斯坦在男性平均身高为 5 英尺 5 英寸的国家招募最高、最强壮的男子，即 6 英尺或更高的士兵。

Pakistan pays their soldiers extra for staying in shape.

巴基斯坦为士兵保持体形支付额外费用。

India just doesn't seem to care that much.

印度似乎并不太在意。

Their soldiers look scrawny by comparison.

相比之下，他们的士兵显得骨瘦如柴。

At the same time, India seems like it can't resist showing off that it's the wealthier country.

与此同时，印度似乎忍不住要炫耀自己是一个更富裕的国家。

They built a majestic stadium that seats 15,000.

他们建造了一座可容纳 15,000 人的雄伟体育场。

It towers over everything, the whole ceremony, no matter which side you are sitting on.

它高于一切、整个仪式，无论你坐在哪一边。

The Pakistan side, it's way smaller, rows of little plastic seats surrounded by concrete steps.

巴基斯坦一侧要小得多，一排排小塑料座椅，周围环绕着混凝土台阶。

But what surprised me most at Wagah?

但 Wagah 最让我惊讶的是什么？

There was an aggression I hadn't expected.

有一种我没有预料到的攻击性。

It seemed like everyone was there to hate on India.

似乎每个人都讨厌印度。

The energy was frantic and hostile.

能量是疯狂而充满敌意的。

People shook their fists at the Indians across from them.

人们向对面的印第安人挥舞着拳头。

The crowd was intense, shouting things like, "Allah is great," and "long live Pakistan."

人群很激烈，高喊着“真主伟大”和“巴基斯坦万岁”之类的话。

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Pakistan!

[非英语演讲] 巴基斯坦！

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Pakistan!

[非英语演讲] 巴基斯坦！

A few weeks ago, I returned to Wagah, and everyone I spoke to seemed to really, really hate India.

几周前，我回到瓦加，与我交谈过的每个人似乎都非常非常讨厌印度。

The mom whose kids wanted ice cream, the teenager dressed in pink, the ex-military man and his wife, they told me they'd come out to show their national pride and to teach their kids about history.

孩子们想要冰淇淋的妈妈，穿着粉红色衣服的少年，前军人和他的妻子，他们告诉我，他们出来是为了展示他们的民族自豪感，并教他们的孩子历史。

But they also went on in great detail with these crackpot conspiracy theories, like the Taliban are actually Indians, or that India continues to attack Pakistan across the Kashmir border, unprovoked, or that India was working stealthily to destabilize the government from the inside.

但他们也详细阐述了这些疯狂的阴谋论，比如塔利班实际上是印度人，或者印度继续无缘无故地越过克什米尔边境攻击巴基斯坦，或者印度正在暗中从内部破坏政府稳定。

I felt dumb.

我觉得很愚蠢。

I hadn't realized the extent of the hate and hostility that people still feel towards India.

我没有意识到人们对印度的仇恨和敌意的程度。

I told people, personally, I don't feel deeply about India.

我个人告诉人们，我对印度没有很深的感情。

And I definitely don't think of India as an enemy.

我绝对不认为印度是敌人。

Almost everyone said that's because I'm too Western, and I didn't really know how it was in Pakistan.

几乎每个人都说那是因为我太西方化了，我不太了解巴基斯坦的情况。

I couldn't possibly understand.

我不可能理解。

Here at the border, it felt like my country, Pakistan, the underdog, was giving the middle finger to our neighboring country.

在边境这里，感觉就像是我的国家巴基斯坦，这个弱者，正在向我们的邻国竖起中指。

And maybe India was no better.

也许印度也好不到哪儿去。

A Pakistani friend who visited the India side of the ceremony said he cried when he realized just how much the Indians hated the Pakistanis.

一位参观仪式印度一侧的巴基斯坦朋友说，当他意识到印度人有多么讨厌巴基斯坦人时，他哭了。

"Let's rape their sisters," he overheard an Indian spectator yelling.

“让我们强奸他们的姐妹，”他无意中听到一名印度观众大喊。

It's like if people from all over the United States and Mexico, full of anger, were to travel to the border between El Paso and Juarez to sit in some bleachers and face off, both shouting insults and screaming, "I'm better than you."

这就好像来自美国和墨西哥各地的人们满怀愤怒，来到埃尔帕索和华雷斯之间的边境，坐在露天看台上对峙，一边喊着侮辱一边尖叫着：“我比你强。”

At the stadium, the moment comes when the gates open between the two sides, and we can finally see the Indian soldiers.

到了体育场，双方大门打开的时刻到了，我们终于可以看到印度士兵了。

The Pakistani and Indian troops stare each other down, pause, then high kick their legs up into the air, like a competition between manly Rockettes.

巴基斯坦和印度军队互相凝视，停顿，然后将双腿高高踢向空中，就像男子火箭女郎之间的比赛一样。

The crowd howls.

人群嚎叫。

In 2006, before some peace talks, India slightly lowered the height of their kicks.

2006年，在一些和谈之前，印度稍微降低了踢腿的高度。

It was a gesture of goodwill, meant to show how sincere India was about improving relations between the two nuclear armed countries.

这是一种善意的姿态，旨在表明印度对于改善两个核武器国家之间关系的诚意。

They thought Pakistan would reciprocate.

他们认为巴基斯坦会做出回报。

We did not.

我们没有。

[CHEERING] Mariya Karimjee Finally, Pakistan and India lower their respective flags for the night.

[欢呼] Mariya Karimjee 最后，巴基斯坦和印度在当晚降下了各自的旗帜。

Bugles play.

号角奏响。

[BUGLES PLAYING] All the soldiers fall back, except for one Pakistani and one Indian.

[军号演奏] 除了一名巴基斯坦人和一名印度人外，所有士兵都向后退去。

Face to face, feet apart, they each do a single, beautifully executed high kick in the other's face.

他们面对面，双脚分开，各自向对方的脸部踢出一记漂亮的高踢。

And then, as promised, they shake hands, woodenly, before marching back to their troops.

然后，正如所承诺的那样，他们木然地握手，然后返回部队。

The ceremony is done.

仪式结束了。

[CHEERING] Mariya Karimjee I will say, the handshake, I was glad to see it.

[欢呼]玛丽亚·卡里姆吉（Mariya Karimjee）我会说，握手，我很高兴看到它。

I found it surprisingly moving in spite of my surroundings.

尽管周围环境如此，但我发现它令人惊讶地移动。

I wondered if I was the only one who felt that way.

我想知道我是否是唯一有这种感觉的人。

In the weeks since I went, I've thought a lot about how much emotion I saw pour out of people at Wagah.

自从我去之后的几周里，我想了很多关于我看到瓦加人身上涌出的情感。

There's lots to be frustrated about in Pakistan.

巴基斯坦有很多令人沮丧的事情。

There's sectarian violence almost every single day.

几乎每天都有宗派暴力事件发生。

Politicians are nicknamed for how corrupt they are.

政客因其腐败程度而被绰号。

Water is increasingly scarce.

水越来越稀缺。

Police often don't follow up on crimes.

警察通常不会跟进犯罪行为。

The rich avoid paying taxes.

富人逃避纳税。

You can't fight injustice through the legal system.

你无法通过法律体系对抗不公正现象。

At Wagah, the single spot on the giant line that made Pakistan exist as a country, you can at least yell with some ferocity.

在瓦加，巴基斯坦作为一个国家而存在的巨线上的唯一一个地点，你至少可以凶猛地大喊大叫。

Maybe it is a way to show your love for Pakistan.

也许这是表达你对巴基斯坦的爱的一种方式。

But I suspect a lot of the appeal is simply that you can yell.

但我怀疑很多吸引力只是因为你可以大喊大叫。

Mariya Karimjee.

玛丽亚·卡里姆吉。

Act Four: We Keep the Wall Between Us As We Go Ira Glass Act Four, "We Keep the Wall Between Us As We Go."

第四幕：我们一路走来，我们之间保持着隔离墙 Ira Glass 第四幕，“我们一路走来，我们之间保持着隔离墙”。

The very first official border wall between the United States and Mexico was actually just a fence in 1918 on the border between two cities with the same name, Nogales, Mexico, and Nogales, Arizona.

美国和墨西哥之间的第一座官方边境墙实际上只是 1918 年在两个同名城市（墨西哥诺加利斯和亚利桑那州诺加利斯）边界上的一道栅栏。

Since then, the US has installed a much bigger fence-- thick, rust-colored steel rods.

从那时起，美国安装了更大的围栏——粗的、锈色的钢棒。

And every day at that spot at the border in Nogales, white buses from Homeland Security roll up full of people with deportation orders who are sent across the border into Mexico from the United States.

每天，在诺加利斯边境的那个地方，国土安全部的白色巴士上满载着从美国越过边境进入墨西哥的持有驱逐令的人。

Lots of them are parents with kids who are still in the States.

他们中的许多人是仍在美国的有孩子的父母。

They then just take up residence right on the other side of the wall.

然后他们就在墙的另一边定居。

There's no official estimate of how many.

没有官方估计有多少。

It's probably in the thousands.

可能有数千。

And one of the saddest premises for a community that you can imagine-- all these parents separated from their own children, who are US citizens, who stay behind, sometimes with the parents' approval and best wishes, sometimes not.

这是一个你能想象到的社区最悲伤的场所之一——所有这些父母都与自己的孩子分离，他们的孩子都是美国公民，他们留下来，有时得到了父母的批准和最美好的祝愿，有时则没有。

Reporter Lizzie Presser was curious about how these parents of kids remake their family lives around all this-- one family, in particular.

记者 Lizzie Presser 很好奇这些孩子的父母如何围绕这一切重塑他们的家庭生活——尤其是一个家庭。

Many of the parents who get dropped off don't exactly decide to stay on the Mexican side of Nogales.

许多被送走的父母并没有真正决定留在诺加利斯的墨西哥一侧。

It's more that they never make the decision to leave.

更重要的是，他们从未做出离开的决定。

They have no friends or family here.

他们在这里没有朋友或家人。

Their original hometowns in Mexico are hundreds of miles away.

他们的家乡墨西哥距离数百英里。

But Nogales is the closest they can be to their kids, who aren't that far away in places like Arizona, Nevada, or Utah.

但诺加利斯是他们与孩子们最亲近的人，孩子们离亚利桑那州、内华达州或犹他州等地并不远。

Local officials told me that this population of deported parents is a new one.

当地官员告诉我，这些被驱逐的父母是新一批。

They started showing up under President Obama.

他们开始出现在奥巴马总统的领导下。

Their numbers picked up even more under President Trump.

在特朗普总统领导下，他们的人数甚至更多。

We hear about kids who get left behind in the States.

我们听说有孩子被留在美国。

But in Nogales, it's the parents who are orphaned.

但在诺加利斯，父母成了孤儿。

You can find these parents all over town.

你在城里到处都可以找到这些父母。

I met Emmanuel outside of a gym.

我在健身房外面遇见了伊曼纽尔。

He got deported two years ago.

两年前他被驱逐出境。

Why did you stick around?

你为什么留下来？

Emmanuel I'm here because I'm closer to my son.

Emmanuel 我来这里是因为我离我儿子更近。

He's little, so he's two.

他还小，所以他才两岁。

He's barely walking.

他几乎无法行走。

And I just don't want him to forget about me, you know?

我只是不想让他忘记我，你知道吗？

I then spotted this woman on the street wearing an Arizona Wildcats T-shirt and stopped her.

然后我在街上发现了这个穿着亚利桑那野猫队 T 恤的女人，并阻止了她。

I'm working on a story on parents who have been deported to Nogales.

我正在写一个关于被驱逐到诺加利斯的父母的故事。

Yeah, that's me, exactly me.

是的，那就是我，正是我。

So I got deported a year ago.

所以我一年前就被驱逐出境了。

This is Griselda Espinoza.

这是格里塞尔达·埃斯皮诺萨。

Her kids are in Mesa, Arizona.

她的孩子们在亚利桑那州梅萨。

How many kids do you have?

你有几个孩子？

Griselda Espinoza Three.

格里塞尔达·埃斯皮诺萨 三。

And how old are they?

他们多大了？

Griselda Espinoza 18, 16, and 6.

格里塞尔达·埃斯皮诺萨 18、16 和 6。

It's hard, because I'm missing a lot of things.

这很难，因为我错过了很多东西。

Are there are certain times of the day that you miss your kids most?

一天中是否有某些时刻是您最想念孩子的？

At night.

晚上。

At night, when I see their pictures.

晚上，当我看到他们的照片时。

My son just won homecoming, and I wasn't there.

我儿子刚刚赢得返校节胜利，而我不在场。

She scrolls through her kids' Facebook pages every night before bed.

她每天晚上睡觉前都会浏览孩子们的 Facebook 页面。

I talked to another mom who said she sometimes spends hours on Google Earth tracing the streets in her old neighborhood in Phoenix.

我和另一位妈妈交谈过，她说她有时会花几个小时在谷歌地球上追踪凤凰城老社区的街道。

I met parents all over the city.

我认识了全城的父母。

They work all day in factories and call centers and then come home to rooms they've decorated for their kids, who aren't there.

他们在工厂和呼叫中心工作一整天，然后回到为孩子装饰的房间，但孩子却不在家。

One dad with a two-year-old still in Phoenix told me he installed a TV in his son's room, decked it out with Tonka trucks and Hot Wheels.

凤凰城的一位带着两岁孩子的父亲告诉我，他在儿子的房间里安装了一台电视，并用 Tonka 卡车和风火轮进行了装饰。

When friends come over, he shuts the door to keep the room clean.

当朋友过来时，他会关上门以保持房间干净。

But when I asked him the last time his son came to visit, he said it was more than a year ago.

但当我问他儿子上次来看望他是什么时候时，他说是一年多前了。

Sometimes, it's a really long wait for kids to cross over from the States.

有时，孩子们从美国穿越过来需要等待很长时间。

The mom I spent the most time with is Gloria Marin.

和我在一起时间最长的妈妈是格洛丽亚·马林。

This is her early one morning last fall.

这是她去年秋天的一个清晨。

She talked to her kids on the phone, and it sounded like they were coming today.

她和孩子们通电话，听起来他们今天就要来。

So Gloria was making her son Angel's favorite dish, chili colorado, a red sauce she mixed with beef and cactus.

因此，格洛丽亚正在做她儿子安吉尔最喜欢的菜——科罗拉多辣椒，这是她与牛肉和仙人掌混合的红酱。

I've known Gloria and her family for a year and gotten close to them.

我认识格洛丽亚和她的家人一年了，并且和他们关系很亲密。

She used to live in Phoenix with her four kids.

她曾经和四个孩子住在凤凰城。

She raised them there as a single mom.

她作为单亲妈妈在那里抚养他们。

Now she lives in a small room behind a friend's house.

现在她住在朋友家后面的一个小房间里。

She keeps a couple extra beds propped up against her wall and got a chihuahua for her daughters.

她在墙上放了几张额外的床，并为她的女儿们买了一只吉娃娃狗。

Like a lot of the other deported parents in town, she always wants to be ready for her kids.

和镇上许多其他被驱逐的父母一样，她总是想为自己的孩子做好准备。

Gloria has been in Nogales for more than five years.

格洛丽亚在诺加利斯已经五年多了。

She's short with wavy black hair.

她身材矮小，有一头黑色的卷发。

She's quiet and kind of wistful when she talks.

她说话时很安静，而且有点渴望。

She wasn't expecting her kids until lunch, but she woke up at 5:00 AM to get ready.

她原本以为孩子们会等到午餐，但她却在凌晨 5:00 起床准备。

She wanted to look nice.

她想看起来漂亮。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Gloria's saying, I showered.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser Gloria 说，我洗了澡。

I got dressed.

我穿好衣服了。

I brushed my hair.

我梳了梳头发。

I cleaned the house.

我把房子打扫干净了。

I made the food.

我做了食物。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser And I wait for them.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 我在等他们。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser That's all.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 就这些了。

Gloria and her kids spent all their time together when they were in Phoenix.

当格洛丽亚和她的孩子们在凤凰城时，他们所有的时间都在一起度过。

They did Friday movie nights, took camping trips, sold toys together at a swap meet on the weekends to make extra money.

他们周五晚上看电影，去露营，周末在交换会上一起卖玩具来赚外快。

And then one day back in 2010, Gloria got arrested while her kids were at school.

2010 年的一天，格洛丽亚在孩子们上学时被捕。

She'd been working as a housekeeper for a couple months when her boss got charged with running drop houses, places where undocumented immigrants spend the night after crossing the border.

当她做了几个月的管家后，她的老板被指控经营临时住所，即无证移民越境后过夜的地方。

The prosecutors charged Gloria as an accomplice.

检察官指控格洛丽亚为共犯。

She says she knew nothing about her boss's work, but she spent two years in prison.

她说她对老板的工作一无所知，但她在监狱里度过了两年。

And then, since she wasn't documented, she was deported.

然后，由于她没有记录，她被驱逐出境。

During that time, her kids lives started to unravel.

在那段时间里，她孩子们的生活开始崩溃。

The youngest was seven and the oldest 15.

最小的7岁，最大的15岁。

Her kids were split up and put into foster care.

她的孩子们被分开并送往寄养机构。

They could rarely talk to their mom or to each other.

他们很少能与妈妈或彼此交谈。

Gloria spent her first year in Nogales trying to regain custody of her kids.

格洛丽亚在诺加利斯度过了第一年，试图重新获得孩子们的监护权。

But by the time she could convince Arizona's family court, only Gloria's youngest, who was 10, ended up joining her for a little.

但当她能够说服亚利桑那州的家庭法庭时，只有格洛丽亚最小的孩子（10 岁）最终加入了她的行列。

The others had been through hell, and they felt estranged from their mom.

其他人经历了地狱般的经历，他们感到与母亲疏远了。

It had been three years since they all lived together.

他们已经住在一起三年了。

Also, they didn't know Mexico, and they were scared to move there.

而且，他们不了解墨西哥，也不敢搬到那里。

They were US citizens whose lives were in Phoenix, three hours away.

他们是美国公民，住在距凤凰城三小时车程的地方。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Gloria told me, when I was young and my kids were little, I thought that I could never live without them.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser Gloria 告诉我，当我还小的时候，我的孩子们还很小，我以为没有他们我就活不下去。

I never thought that one day they'd grow up, and I'd be far away from them.

我没想到有一天他们长大了，我却远离了他们。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser But you have to learn how to live like this.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 但你必须学会如何这样生活。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser It's like a hope.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 这就像一个希望。

It's the hope that any moment they'll say, Mom, I'm going over.

希望他们随时都会说，妈妈，我要过去。

And I'll be here waiting for them.

我会在这里等他们。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser I'm always just sitting around nervously, just waiting.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 我总是紧张地坐着，只是等待。

I always await their visits thinking that, at any minute, they'll come.

我总是等待他们的来访，认为他们随时都会来。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser But they never really plan anything.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 但他们从来没有真正计划过任何事情。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Today, they said they'd visit.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 今天，他们说他们会来拜访。

But what Gloria didn't know was that they weren't planning on coming across the border to her house and eating her chili colorado.

但格洛丽亚不知道的是，他们并不打算越过边境到她家吃她的科罗拉多辣椒。

They only wanted to come as far as the wall.

他们只想走到墙边。

There's a small visitor's section where the wall is just a mesh fence where people from the two sides go to talk.

有一个小的游客区，墙只是一个网栅栏，两边的人都可以在那里交谈。

I want to stay on this side.

我想留在这一边。

Lizzie Presser This is Gloria's daughter, Yesi.

Lizzie Presser 这是格洛丽亚的女儿，耶西。

She's 22, and she's bringing her two young children, one of whom has never met Gloria.

她今年 22 岁，带着两个年幼的孩子，其中一个从未见过格洛丽亚。

And she just couldn't bring herself to tell her mom that she doesn't want to cross over into Mexico today.

她只是无法让自己告诉妈妈她今天不想越境进入墨西哥。

No, if my mom hears that, she's going to be sad.

不，如果我妈妈听到了，她会很难过的。

She's going to think there's something wrong with her.

她会认为自己有什么问题。

I just make up excuses.

我只是编造借口而已。

I don't know what's wrong with me-- like excuse after excuse.

我不知道自己出了什么问题——就像一个又一个的借口。

Then why are you making up those excuses there?

那你为什么要在那里编造那些借口呢？

I get super depressed not being able to be with her.

无法和她在一起我感到非常沮丧。

She says it's really painful to see her mom.

她说见到妈妈真的很痛苦。

Gloria's house is a plywood shed, and she's working at a factory making $15 a day.

格洛丽亚的房子是一个胶合板棚子，她在一家工厂工作，每天挣 15 美元。

Her health isn't great.

她的健康状况不太好。

She has diabetes.

她患有糖尿病。

Sometimes, she starts crying.

有时，她会开始哭泣。

And Yesi feels like there's nothing she can do to help her situation.

Yesi 觉得自己无能为力。

It messes her up to see her mom that way.

看到她妈妈那样，她心里很不舒服。

I don't think she understands the effect of us seeing her like that.

我认为她不明白我们这样看她会产生什么影响。

She always calls me and tells me like, why are you ignoring me?

她总是打电话给我并告诉我，你为什么不理我？

I'm your mother.

我是你的母亲。

You need to see me.

你需要见我。

You need to talk to me.

你需要跟我谈谈。

I want to cook for you.

我想给你做饭。

She tells me all these things.

她告诉我所有这些事情。

Then what do you say?

那你说什么？

Yesi Marin I just tell her, oh, it's because I'm busy here.

Yesi Marin 我只是告诉她，哦，这是因为我在这里很忙。

I've got stuff to do.

我还有事要做。

But I don't do anything.

但我什么也不做。

I'm just here in my room.

我只是在我的房间里。

When was the last time you saw your mom?

你最后一次见到妈妈是什么时候？

I can't even remember.

我什至不记得了。

I think it was December of last year.

我记得那是去年12月的事。

Yeah, it's been that long.

是啊，已经这么久了。

And that was at the wall.

那是在墙上。

Yesi hasn't crossed over to visit her mother's house since 2014.

自2014年以来，叶思就没有再过过她母亲家。

It's not that she doesn't love her mom.

并不是说她不爱她的妈妈。

They talk on the phone, text, send each other cute emojis.

他们打电话、发短信、互相发送可爱的表情符号。

But in the past, when Yesi's gone to see her mom, she's left her ID at home on purpose then told her mom it was an accident.

但以前，叶丝去看妈妈的时候，故意把身份证留在家里，然后告诉妈妈这是一个意外。

That way, crossing wasn't an option.

这样一来，穿越就不是一个选择了。

She could only meet Gloria at the wall and talk there.

她只能在墙边与格洛丽亚见面并在那里交谈。

She wouldn't have to see her at her house.

她不必在她家里见到她。

It just wasn't as intense.

只是没有那么激烈。

The wall is helpful for Yesi.

墙对野西很有帮助。

It helps her keep some emotional distance.

这有助于她保持一定的情感距离。

Staying on the US side of the wall helps Yesi in another way.

留在隔离墙的美国一侧对耶西有另一个帮助。

The last time she crossed over to visit Gloria in her home, four years ago, she'd only planned to visit for a few days.

上次她穿越到格洛丽亚家中是四年前，她只打算去几天。

But she almost didn't come back.

但她差一点就没有回来。

She ended up living there for four months with her daughter, who was just a toddler.

她最终和她还是个小孩的女儿在那里住了四个月。

She hadn't felt that comfortable in years.

她已经很多年没有感觉到这么舒服了。

She and Gloria talked about how Yesi could get a job on the US side of the border, commute there during the day, and then stay in Mexico with Gloria at night.

她和格洛丽亚谈论了耶西如何在边境美国一侧找到工作，白天在那里通勤，然后晚上和格洛丽亚一起留在墨西哥。

And for months, Yesi let herself believe it was possible.

几个月来，叶西让自己相信这是可能的。

But then her real life caught up with her.

但后来她的现实生活追上了她。

She couldn't keep putting off school, her kids' dad, who was in Arizona.

她孩子们的父亲在亚利桑那州，她不能再推迟上学了。

She had too many responsibilities.

她有太多的责任。

And ever since, seeing her mom just reminded her of what she couldn't have.

从那时起，看到她的妈妈就让她想起了她不能拥有的东西。

You're nervous that if you go, you won't come back.

你很紧张，如果你走了，你就不会回来了。

Yeah, because that's what I want.

是的，因为这就是我想要的。

I just want to be with her.

我只想和她在一起。

I guess I have no self-control.

我想我没有自制力。

Ugh.

呃。

That's why I don't like going over there.

这就是为什么我不喜欢去那里。

But have you ever thought about just saying to her, like, it's hard for me to come because I miss you too much?

但你有没有想过对她说，我很难来，因为我太想你了？

How do you tell the person that you love the most in this world, I don't want to see you because I come home, and I'm not the same because of you?

你如何告诉这个世界上你最爱的人，我不想见到你，因为我回家了，我因为你而变得不一样了？

You don't want to tell her that.

你不想告诉她这些。

Her little brother, Angel, is also ambivalent about seeing their mom.

她的弟弟安吉尔对于见到妈妈也很矛盾。

And today, he plans to stay on the US side of the fence with Yesi.

今天，他计划与耶西一起留在美国一边。

I get butterflies because I feel nervous.

我心情紧张，因为我感到紧张。

It's like I'm meeting a whole different person, even though I know her.

就好像我遇到了一个完全不同的人，尽管我认识她。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I just sometimes feel like I'm a stranger to her.

我只是有时候觉得我对她来说是个陌生人。

And sometimes, she's a stranger to me.

有时，她对我来说是个陌生人。

Angel's 18 now.

安琪现在18岁了。

He was 10 when Gloria was picked up.

格洛丽亚被接走时他才 10 岁。

And in those eight years, Gloria has changed a lot.

而这八年里，格洛丽亚的变化也很大。

In prison, Gloria became really religious.

在监狱里，格洛丽亚变得非常虔诚。

Now she goes to mass three times each week, and she's always talking to Angel and Yesi about God, reading them passages from the Bible.

现在她每周去三次弥撒，她总是和安吉尔和耶西谈论上帝，给他们读圣经中的段落。

She used to stroll into school to pick them up in ripped Guess jeans and a big perm.

她常常穿着破烂的 Guess 牛仔裤和大烫发漫步到学校接他们。

At home, she'd blast Madonna and Michael Jackson while they cleaned the house together.

在家里，当麦当娜和迈克尔·杰克逊一起打扫房子时，她会攻击他们。

Now she wears long dresses and "church lady" shoes.

现在她穿着长裙和“教堂女士”鞋。

She's reserved.

她很保守。

Angel's kind of a goof, and he used to crack his mom up all the time.

安吉尔是个傻瓜，他总是嘲笑他的妈妈。

But now, he says, she's lost her sense of humor.

但现在，他说，她失去了幽默感。

He feels like he can't be himself around her.

他觉得在她身边他无法做自己。

I'll make fun of people, just be like, yo, that guy gots a bald head.

我会取笑别人，就像，哟，那个家伙有一个光头。

You can see your future.

你可以看到你的未来。

And it's like a magic ball.

它就像一个魔法球。

And she'll be like, don't make fun of that person, you know?

她会说，不要取笑那个人，你知道吗？

They have issues too.

他们也有问题。

I'll be like, Mom, I'm just trying to make you laugh, but OK.

我会说，妈妈，我只是想让你笑，但是没关系。

If you're just going to continue to be like that with me, then why should we even speak?

如果你打算继续这样对我，那我们为什么还要说话呢？

Because I don't want to feel that vibe with my own mother.

因为我不想和自己的母亲一起感受到那种氛围。

Do you feel like she used to appreciate this part of you?

你觉得她以前欣赏你的这一部分吗？

I think so, yeah, shoot.

我想是的，是的，射击。

Lizzie Presser Angel and Yesi both can't let go of the way their mom used to be back in Phoenix.

莉齐·普雷瑟·安吉尔和耶西都无法忘记妈妈在凤凰城时的样子。

Yesi wants her to act more like a mom, to fake that she's happy even when she's not, to tell her what to do.

Yesi 希望她表现得更像一个妈妈，即使她不开心也要假装自己很开心，告诉她该怎么做。

Of course, they have practical reasons for not visiting.

当然，他们有不来访的实际原因。

They don't have much money for bus tickets.

他们没有多少钱买公交车票。

Yesi's kids need her attention.

叶西的孩子需要她的关注。

It's easy to blame it on that stuff and not talk about the rest of it, though it's hard not to feel guilty.

人们很容易将其归咎于这些事情而不谈论其余的事情，尽管很难不感到内疚。

Sometimes, I feel like my mom feels that we don't love her.

有时候，我觉得我妈妈觉得我们不爱她。

Do you feel like your love for your mom now is the same as it was before she left?

你觉得你现在对妈妈的爱和她离开之前一样吗？

I really don't know what it is right now.

我现在真的不知道那是什么。

[LAUGHS] When my mom, she tells me she loves me, I'll tell her, I love you too, Mom.

[笑]当我妈妈告诉我她爱我时，我会告诉她，我也爱你，妈妈。

And what do you feel?

你感觉如何？

Angel Marin Nothing.

安吉尔·马林 什么也没有。

Is that scary?

那可怕吗？

Angel Marin No, it's just a feeling that you feel, like when you're just too deep into something that you just can't get out of, or you feel you can't get out of.

安吉尔·马林：不，这只是你感受到的一种感觉，就像你陷入某件事太深而无法摆脱，或者你觉得自己无法摆脱一样。

Angel's not completely disconnected from Gloria though.

不过，安吉尔并没有完全脱离格洛丽亚。

He's discovered that she has a very specific physical effect on him that no one else has.

他发现她对他有一种其他人没有的非常特殊的身体影响。

After Gloria was arrested, Angel stopped being able to sleep through the night.

格洛丽亚被捕后，安吉尔整夜无法入睡。

But when he visited her at her home in Nogales for the first time, Gloria lay down next to him.

但当他第一次去她位于诺加利斯的家中拜访她时，格洛丽亚躺在他旁边。

At the time, he was just 14.

当时，他只有14岁。

I instantly fell asleep because she was rubbing my head.

因为她揉着我的头，我很快就睡着了。

I just knocked out quick.

我刚刚很快就被淘汰了。

Had you not had that since she'd been arrested?

自从她被捕后你就没有了吗？

Yeah.

是的。

That was like the best, decent sleep.

这就像最好的、体面的睡眠。

Like, I would compare it to the last time I was like in the fetus, bro, like just chilling, just going-- just sleeping, you know?

就像，我会把它与我上次在胎儿时期的情况进行比较，兄弟，就像只是放松，只是去 - 只是睡觉，你知道吗？

I had no thoughts, no negative thoughts.

我没有任何想法，没有消极的想法。

I didn't have to worry about bills, no nothing.

我不用担心账单，什么都不需要。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Gloria told me, yes, but I don't know.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser Gloria 告诉我，是的，但我不知道。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Maybe because of time and money, I don't know.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 也许是因为时间和金钱，我不知道。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser They can't come so much.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 他们不能来那么多。

I don't know.

我不知道。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser So I never thought that this would happen, that they'd make the decision to not come.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 所以我从没想过会发生这种事，他们会决定不来。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Before, I used to get angry because they didn't come.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 以前，我常常因为他们不来而生气。

And I used to ask myself why, ask myself if they'd lost their love for their mom and all that.

我常常问自己为什么，问自己他们是否失去了对妈妈的爱等等。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser But now, I just want them to feel good so that they want to come again.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 但现在，我只想让他们感觉良好，这样他们就想再来。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser So these days, that's Gloria's entire strategy.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 现在，这就是格洛丽亚的全部策略。

She tries to play it cool when she's on the phone with them.

当她和他们打电话时，她试图表现得冷静。

She doesn't want to sound needy or talk about how hard things are for her.

她不想让自己听起来很需要帮助，也不想谈论她的处境有多么困难。

In the morning, back in Phoenix, Yesi put on full makeup.

早上，回到凤凰城，叶思化好了妆。

Brisa, the youngest kid, braided Angel's hair.

最小的孩子布里莎给安吉尔编辫子。

The three of them packed into the car around 7:00 AM with Yesi's kids and headed south to stand on the Arizona side of the border and talk to their mom through a fence.

早上 7:00 左右，他们三人和 Yesi 的孩子们挤进车里，向南行驶，站在亚利桑那州边境一侧，隔着栅栏与妈妈交谈。

In Nogales, Gloria finished cooking and then sat on her bed, watching the clock, still unaware that her kids weren't planning to cross over.

在诺加利斯，格洛丽亚做完饭，然后坐在床上，看着时钟，仍然没有意识到她的孩子们不打算穿越。

When it hit 10:00 AM, Gloria left her house, got in her car, and started driving to the border to pick them up, 10 minutes away.

上午 10:00 时，格洛丽亚 (Gloria) 离开家，上车，开车前往 10 分钟路程外的边境接他们。

[PHONE RINGING] Suddenly, her cell phone rang.

【电话铃声】突然，她的手机响了。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser It was her kids.

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 这是她的孩子们。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Gloria's saying, are you guys coming?

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser Gloria 说，你们来吗？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lizzie Presser Wait, you're there?

[说西班牙语] Lizzie Presser 等等，你在吗？

I'm on my way.

我正在路上。

OK, mijo, I love you.

好吧，美乔，我爱你。

Lizzie Presser Her kids had all crossed.

莉齐·普雷瑟（Lizzie Presser） 她的孩子们都穿越了。

I don't think it was because I was with them recording.

我不认为这是因为我和他们一起录音。

They'd had a massive change of heart.

他们的心发生了巨大的改变。

Brisa, the youngest, had been telling her siblings that Gloria was doing fine, and they needed to chill out and stop making such a big deal out of visiting her house.

最小的布里莎一直告诉她的兄弟姐妹格洛丽亚一切都很好，他们需要冷静下来，不要再把拜访她家当作小事了。

And so when they got to the border, the siblings didn't talk about it.

所以当他们到达边境时，兄弟姐妹没有谈论这件事。

Nobody said anything.

没有人说什么。

Angel looked down and saw his feet walking across the border.

安格尔低头一看，看到自己的脚正跨过边境。

They pushed through a metal gate.

他们推开一扇金属门。

Suddenly, they were in Mexico.

突然，他们到了墨西哥。

Gloria pulled up and honked.

格洛丽亚把车停下来，按了喇叭。

Yesi, it's your first time here in three years.

是的，这是你三年来第一次来这里。

I know.

我知道。

It's been a while.

已经有一段时间了。

Lizzie Presser Yesi went to hug her.

莉齐·普莱斯耶斯走过去拥抱她。

She told her mom that her hair smelled good.

她告诉妈妈，她的头发闻起来很香。

Everyone kissed each other and piled into the car.

大家互相亲吻，然后挤进车里。

At Gloria's house, the kids immediately sat down to start eating.

到了格洛丽亚家，孩子们立刻坐下来开始吃饭。

They only had an hour.

他们只有一个小时的时间。

Angel had to get back to Phoenix for work that night.

当晚安吉尔必须返回凤凰城工作。

For all their talk about their hang ups with their mom, they got casual really fast.

尽管他们谈论了与妈妈的烦恼，但他们很快就变得随意起来。

Yesi's bodysuit was bothering her, so she unsnapped it and let the flaps hang loose.

Yesi的紧身衣让她很不舒服，所以她解开扣子，让襟翼松散地垂下来。

Angel was trying to learn how to say "burp" in Spanish.

安吉尔正在尝试学习如何用西班牙语说“打嗝”。

Is it "eructa" or "erupta?" Gloria Marin Eructa.

是“eructa”还是“erupta”？格洛丽亚·马林·埃鲁克塔。

Gloria wasn't eating.

格洛丽亚没有吃饭。

She was just watching them.

她只是看着他们。

She had this dreamy smile on her face.

她的脸上挂着梦幻般的微笑。

This was the first time they'd all sat around a table together since 2010.

这是自 2010 年以来他们第一次围坐在一张桌子旁。

After lunch, they all climbed into Gloria's bed, insisting they had food comas.

午餐后，他们都爬上了格洛丽亚的床，坚称自己是食物昏迷的。

But really, they just wanted an excuse to cuddle with their mom.

但实际上，他们只是想要一个拥抱妈妈的借口。

Angel curled up.

天使蜷缩起来。

He's about 5 feet, 90 pounds.

他身高约 5 英尺，体重 90 磅。

He'd insisted on wearing a baggy sweatshirt that day so he didn't look too skinny.

那天他坚持穿一件宽松的运动衫，这样他就不会显得太瘦。

Gloria started rubbing his head.

格洛丽亚开始揉他的头。

It was like a magic trick.

这就像一个魔术。

When my mom rubs my head and I'm sleeping, it's already over.

当妈妈揉着我的头让我睡着的时候，一切都已经结束了。

Angel closed his eyes, and then it was time to leave.

安格尔闭上眼睛，是时候离开了。

Yesi and her kids stayed behind with Gloria, but just for three extra days this time.

耶西和她的孩子们和格洛丽亚一起留下来，但这次只多呆了三天。

They talked again about living together in Mexico.

他们再次谈论在墨西哥一起生活的事情。

Yesi told her she'd move down there in a month or so.

耶西告诉她一个月左右她就会搬到那里。

She'd buy Gloria a plot of land with a small house, just big enough for the whole family.

她会给格洛丽亚买一块土地，里面有一座小房子，足够全家住。

Yesi told me it made them both happy, just saying all those things, even though she knew and her mom knew that it wasn't going to happen.

耶西告诉我，尽管她知道，她妈妈也知道这不会发生，但说出这些话让他们俩都很开心。

And for the first time, that was OK.

第一次，这没什么问题。

Lizzie Presser.

莉齐·普雷瑟。

To help report this story, Lizzie got a grant from the International Women's Media Foundation as an Adelante Fellow.

为了帮助报道这个故事，Lizzie 作为 Adelante 研究员获得了国际女性媒体基金会的资助。

She was also supported by the Investigative Fund at The Nation Institute

她还得到了国家研究所调查基金的支持

[MUSIC - "WHEN THE WALLS CAME DOWN" BY THE CALL]

[音乐-“当墙壁倒塌时”的召唤]

(SINGING) Well, they blew the horns, and the walls came down.

（唱歌）好吧，他们吹响了号角，墙壁倒塌了。

They'd all been warned, and the walls came down.

他们都收到了警告，围墙倒塌了。

They stood there laughing.

他们站在那里笑。

They're not laughing anymore.

他们不再笑了。

The walls came down.

墙壁倒塌了。

Our program was produced today by David Kestenbaum and Louise Sullivan.

今天我们的节目由大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆和路易丝·沙利文制作。

The people who put our show together includes Elna Baker, Elise Bergerson, Ben Calhoun, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Michelle Harris, Kimberly Henderson, Miki Meek, Alvin Melathe, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.

制作我们节目的人员包括 Elna Baker、Elise Bergerson、Ben Calhoun、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Michelle Harris、Kimberly Henderson、Miki Meek、Alvin Melathe、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。

Our senior producer is Brian Reed.

我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。

Our managing editor is Susan Burton.

我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿。

Production help from Anna Martin and Stone Nelson.

安娜·马丁和斯通·尼尔森为制作提供帮助。

Special thanks today to Robert Frost, to California Sunday Magazine, The Kino Border Initiative, Carmen Noriega, Catalina Maria Johnston, Vicky Cosstick, Peter Curran, Mark Gordon, Zeynep Bilginsoy, Matt Alesevich, Zach Campbell, James Hathaway, Rebecca Hamlin, Jesus Blasco de Avellaneda, Nick Fountain, Nate Rott, Charles Maynes, Frankie Quinn, Brahim B.

今天特别感谢罗伯特·弗罗斯特、加州星期日杂志、基诺边境倡议、卡门·诺列加、卡特琳娜·玛丽亚·约翰斯顿、维姬·科斯蒂克、彼得·库兰、马克·戈登、泽伊内普·比尔金索伊、马特·阿莱塞维奇、扎克·坎贝尔、詹姆斯·海瑟薇、丽贝卡·哈姆林、耶稣·布拉斯科·德·阿维拉内达、尼克·方丹、内特·罗特、查尔斯·梅恩斯、弗兰基·奎因、布拉希姆·B.

Ali.

阿里.

Interpreting today by Daniel Sherr.

今天由 Daniel Sherr 进行口译。

Our website, where this week we have this incredible interactive map where you can fly around to see all the walls in today's stories all over the globe, created by International Mapping.

在我们的网站上，本周我们推出了这张令人难以置信的交互式地图，您可以在其中飞来飞去，查看全球各地当今故事中的所有墙壁，该地图由 International Mapping 创建。

See that at thisamericanlife.org.

请参阅 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio station by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he just showed us our new office plan.

你知道，他刚刚向我们展示了我们的新办公室平面图。

We are all moving into cubicles-- very, very tiny cubicles.

我们都在搬进小隔间——非常非常小的小隔间。

He likes them small.

他喜欢它们小的。

I would compare it to the last time I was in the fetus, bro, like just chilling.

我会把它与我上次在胎儿时期进行比较，兄弟，就像只是感到寒冷。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

[MUSIC - "WHEN THE WALLS CAME DOWN" BY THE CALL]

[音乐-“当墙壁倒塌时”的召唤]

This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。