640: Five Women - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #640 | January 24, 2020 640: Five Women Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 640 集 | 2020 年 1 月 24 日 640：五个女人 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

A quick warning to everybody who's listening to this podcast version of our show.

向所有收听我们节目播客版本的人发出快速警告。

There are some words that we have unbeeped.

有些话我们没有听到。

If you don't want to hear that, maybe you're listening with kids, you can get a beeped version at our website, ThisAmericanLife.org.

如果您不想听，也许您正在和孩子们一起听，您可以在我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org 上获取嘟嘟声版本。

So Chana Joffe-Walt, one of our producers, has been reporting this story.

我们的制片人之一查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 一直在报道这个故事。

It's going be the whole hour today.

今天将是整整一个小时。

It's a really good one.

这真是一件好事。

Here she is.

她在这里。

When Vivian started reading about the men in Hollywood, and the media, and their sexual transgressions, she thought of the men in her past who had behaved poorly, the man who assaulted her in her 20s, and the others--

当薇薇安开始阅读有关好莱坞男人、媒体以及他们的性犯罪的内容时，她想到了过去那些表现不佳的男人，那个在她 20 多岁时袭击她的男人，以及其他人——

A few unwanted kisses over the years-- I mean, truly unwanted, drunken guys just sort of pushing themselves on me, and, you know, the usual array of jokes and comments, and this and that.

这些年来有一些不想要的吻——我的意思是，真正不想要的、醉酒的家伙只是把自己推向我，而且，你知道，通常的一系列笑话和评论，等等。

She thought of them, and she thought of Don, her partner of 23 years.

她想起了他们，也想起了她 23 年的伴侣唐。

And Vivian wondered.

薇薇安想知道。

Don was a boss to dozens of women.

唐是数十名女性的老板。

He ran AlterNet, a progressive news website, and he was a flirt.

他经营着一个进步新闻网站 AlterNet，而且他是一个调情者。

It was easy for me to imagine that Don had missed unspoken signals-- being a little too present, a little too close, a little too eager, a little too-- you know, those kinds of things.

我很容易想象唐错过了不言而喻的信号——有点太在场，有点太亲密，有点太渴望，有点太——你知道，诸如此类的事情。

She'd seen it.

她见过。

She'd seen Don's attention make women uncomfortable at parties, in restaurants.

她发现唐的关注让女人们在聚会和餐馆里感到不舒服。

And what would end up happening is I would catch her eye, and we would roll our eyes together-- like oh, God, men --there would be a sort of a bond there, and things would go on.

最终发生的事情是我会吸引她的目光，我们会一起翻白眼——就像哦，上帝，伙计们——那里会有一种纽带，事情会继续下去。

And this is like Don flirting with some woman in front of you.

这就像唐在你面前和某个女人调情一样。

Yes, I knew he was a flirt.

是的，我知道他是个调情人。

I also really knew that that didn't have anything to do with us.

我也确实知道这与我们没有任何关系。

That had to do with a need for attention.

这与需要关注有关。

Of course, of course.

当然，当然。

But it pass quickly.

但它很快就过去了。

It was usually very easy to move things along.

移动事情通常很容易。

Then I could step in.

然后我就可以介入了。

I could step between.

我可以介于两者之间。

I could engage her in conversation, whatever, right.

我可以和她交谈，无论如何，对吧。

Rarely, because I didn't think I'd be believed.

很少，因为我认为我不会被相信。

By him.

由他。

Vivian By him.

薇薇安 是他。

I think he'd sort of laugh it off, and say, oh, you just don't get it.

我想他会一笑而过，然后说，哦，你只是不明白。

It's all in fun-- which I do think was his attitude-- which I know was his attitude.

这一切都很有趣——我确实认为这就是他的态度——我知道这就是他的态度。

So a couple of months ago, when Don told Vivian that BuzzFeed News was writing a story about him, Vivian was not surprised.

因此，几个月前，当唐告诉薇薇安 BuzzFeed 新闻正在撰写一篇关于他的报道时，薇薇安并不感到惊讶。

People who used to work for Don at AlterNet were accusing Don of sexually harassing them.

曾经在 AlterNet 为 Don 工作的人指责 Don 对他们进行性骚扰。

Vivian read the article.

薇薇安读了这篇文章。

A number of women detailed encounters with Don-- unwanted advances, inappropriate touching, sending them explicit e-mails.

许多女性详细描述了与唐的遭遇——不受欢迎的挑衅、不恰当的触摸、向他们发送露骨的电子邮件。

Vivian recognized Don in some parts; others felt like they were describing a person she'd never met.

薇薇安在某些地方认出了唐；其他人则觉得他们在描述一个她从未见过的人。

Mostly, she had a particular experience reading that story that actually had nothing to do with Don.

大多数情况下，她在阅读这个故事时有一种特殊的经历，而实际上与唐无关。

A memory came back to me from when I was 28 that I'm sure I hadn't thought about since it happened.

我想起了 28 岁时的一段记忆，我确信自从这件事发生后我就没有再想过。

She was training to be a psychologist with a bunch of young trainees at a clinic.

她正在一家诊所与一群年轻的实习生一起接受心理学家培训。

She was in the back room where the staff took breaks and wrote notes.

她在后面的房间里，工作人员在那里休息并写笔记。

The supervisor was a man, as virtually all the supervisors at the time were, in his 40s, maybe even early 50s.

主管是一名男性，当时几乎所有主管都是男性，年龄在 40 多岁，甚至可能 50 岁出头。

Vivian was on the couch with a friend, a woman in her 40s, and the two of them watched as many of the young psychology interns, women Vivian's age, in their 20s, crowded around the supervisor.

维维安和一位 40 多岁的女性朋友坐在沙发上，两人看着许多年轻的心理实习生，与维维安年龄相仿的 20 多岁女性，挤在主管周围。

They're surrounding him, and sort of hanging on his words, and leaning in, and it's just got that-- no offense, his words weren't that interesting, you know.

他们围着他，有点听着他的话，向前倾身，结果就是这样——无意冒犯，你知道，他的话没那么有趣。

It's like, they were fine.

就好像，他们都很好。

But, oh my God, and he was eating it up.

但是，天啊，他竟然把它吃光了。

You could just see he loved this.

你可以看出他喜欢这个。

And then I'm sitting in the back of the room, on the couch with this other woman, Lynn, and she looks up and she goes, hm, the cupcakes.

然后我和另一个女人林恩坐在房间后面的沙发上，她抬起头来，嗯，纸杯蛋糕。

Vivian lost it.

维维安输了。

She loved this word.

她很喜欢这个词。

It was perfect.

太完美了。

And you understood immediately that that was meant to refer to the women who were surrounding the supervisor.

你立刻就明白了，这是指主管周围的女性。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

And you know, and I was really proud that she was basically saying, you're not one of them.

你知道，我真的很自豪她基本上是在说，你不是他们中的一员。

You know, I did not want to be one of them.

你知道，我不想成为他们中的一员。

She was basically saying that you're cool and they're not.

她基本上是在说你很酷，而他们则不然。

Exactly, exactly.

完全正确。

Like we're grown up women, and they're not.

就像我们是成年女性一样，而她们不是。

Oh, God, yeah.

哦，上帝，是的。

That's who I want to be.

这就是我想成为的人。

That is where her mind when reading about her partner of two decades in the news-- the cupcakes.

当她在新闻中读到她二十年来的伴侣——纸杯蛋糕时，她的脑海里浮现的就是这个想法。

Vivian felt full of regret.

薇薇安心中充满了遗憾。

She regretted her contempt for the cupcakes.

她后悔自己对纸杯蛋糕的蔑视。

She regretted her acceptance that this was the way it would always be between men and women.

她很遗憾自己接受了男女之间永远都是这样的事实。

Men would have power, and women would have to deal with that.

男人拥有权力，而女人则必须面对权力。

What I found so interesting about this was, for Vivian, learning the news about Don sparked this memory that was not about Don, but in some ways it felt like it had everything to do with Don.

我发现这很有趣的是，对于薇薇安来说，得知有关唐的消息激发了这段与唐无关的记忆，但在某些方面感觉它与唐有关。

It explained something to her about who she is, and how she is, and choices and assumptions she's made in her life.

它向她解释了她是谁、她是怎样的以及她在生活中所做的选择和假设。

Now I want to tell you about another group of people I've been talking to, the women who worked for Don, including women who say they were harassed by him.

现在我想告诉你们我一直在交谈的另一群人，那些为唐工作的女性，包括那些说自己受到他骚扰的女性。

I talked with them, and they each told me their Don stories, but they also did the same thing Vivian did.

我和他们交谈，他们每个人都向我讲述了唐的故事，但他们也做了维维安所做的同样的事情。

They brought up specific experiences from their past, things that happened years ago.

他们带来了过去的具体经历，多年前发生的事情。

Because, for them, that stuff in the past feels related to their experiences with Don.

因为，对他们来说，过去的事情感觉与他们和唐的经历有关。

Over the last few months of Me Too stories, I keep wanting to hear more from the women who were in the news reports, their broader history, not just the bad experience they had with one man at an office or on a movie set, but the other moments before the harassment, because there is no Me Too moment that is actually separate from the rest of our lives.

在过去几个月的“我也是”故事中，我一直想听到更多新闻报道中的女性的声音，了解她们更广泛的历史，不仅仅是她们在办公室或电影片场与一个男人的糟糕经历，还有骚扰之前的其他时刻，因为没有一个“我也是”时刻实际上与我们的其他生活是分开的。

So today's show, we're going to do that.

所以今天的节目，我们就这么做。

Five women tell their stories, Vivian and four women who worked for her partner, Don Hazen, over the course of many years, at different times, with a wide range of experiences.

五名女性讲述了她们的故事，其中包括薇薇安和四名为她的伴侣唐·哈森工作的女性，她们在多年的不同时间、拥有广泛的经历。

We're going to hear from each of them one at a time about their experiences with Don, and their experiences before Don.

我们将一次听他们每个人讲述他们与唐在一起的经历，以及他们在唐面前的经历。

Don resigned from his job a few months ago, and told me the board that oversees AlterNet insisted he couldn't talk on the record.

Don 几个月前辞去了工作，并告诉我，监督 AlterNet 的董事会坚称他不能公开讲话。

I can tell you some about his version of events, but you won't be hearing from him.

我可以告诉你一些他对事件的看法，但你不会收到他的消息。

It's not a story about him, it's about them, these five women.

这不是一个关于他的故事，而是关于她们，这五个女人的故事。

What these women are doing is what I think so many of us have been doing lately.

我认为这些女性正在做的事情就是我们很多人最近一直在做的事情。

They're doing it in ways I found brave and vulnerable.

我觉得他们的做法既勇敢又脆弱。

They're re-evaluating who they are, how they've related to men, how they came to think of certain things as normal.

她们正在重新评估自己是谁，与男人的关系如何，如何将某些事情视为正常。

It's a reckoning, not just for men, for women.

这不仅是对男人的清算，也是对女人的清算。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Chana Joffe-Walt.

我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

This is probably evident by now, but just to say, we will talk about sex in this show, not just its existence, but some of the specifics.

现在这可能已经很明显了，但只是说，我们将在这个节目中谈论性，不仅仅是它的存在，而是一些细节。

And there are some moments of abuse, so take this as a heads up.

并且有一些滥用的时刻，所以请注意这一点。

OK.

好的。

The women who worked for Don at AlterNet, beginning with Act 1, "Deanna."

从第一幕“迪安娜”开始，那些在 AlterNet 为唐工作的女性。

The list started when Deanna was eight years old.

这个名单是在迪安娜八岁时开始的。

The first time it was Face from the A-Team.

第一次是A队的Face。

Deanna got a postcard of him that year when her family went to Universal Studios.

那年，迪安娜一家人去环球影城时，收到了一张他的明信片。

She put a puffy red heart sticker on it, took it with her during the day--

她在上面贴了一张蓬松的红心贴纸，白天随身携带——

--slept with it at night, and I actually-- and I'm eight.

——晚上和它一起睡觉，我实际上——而且我八岁了。

And I felt like I was going to die if I never met him.

我觉得如果我从未见过他，我就会死掉。

I actually thought I would die.

我其实以为我会死。

I was like, I will cease to exist if I don't get to meet this person.

我当时想，如果我没有遇到这个人，我就会不复存在。

The next one made her cry.

接下来的一幕让她哭了。

He was 12, so was she.

他12岁，她也12岁。

Deanna called her Aunt Rose from the basement, distressed.

迪安娜在地下室打电话给罗丝姨妈，她很伤心。

She'd written him letters, dedicated a song to him on the radio, and nothing, no response.

她给他写了信，在广播中为他献了一首歌，但没有任何回应。

Aunt Rose was quick to deliver advice.

罗丝姨妈很快就给出了建议。

This is the way boys are.

男孩就是这样。

They don't understand you.

他们不理解你。

They are dumb.

他们很愚蠢。

They do not get you.

他们不明白你的意思。

You're strong and smart and independent, and that just is never going to make sense to men.

你坚强、聪明、独立，但这对男人来说永远没有意义。

Aunt Rose explained it would be Deanna's job to make sense of things to men.

罗斯阿姨解释说，迪安娜的工作就是让男人们明白事情的道理。

If she was going to have relationships with them, it would never be easy, and it would be on her to figure it out.

如果她要和他们建立关系，那绝不会是一件容易的事，这需要她自己弄清楚。

Boys were too dumb to do it for themselves.

男孩们太蠢了，无法自己做这件事。

Jay's dad was a minister.

杰伊的父亲是一名牧师。

Jay liked Monty Python, and had a car, and very few opinions.

Jay 喜欢 Monty Python，也有车，但很少有意见。

He was incredibly sweet, and he was very much whatever you want to do.

他非常可爱，你想做的事他都会做。

Well, what do you want to do?

嗯，你想做什么？

You know, not super-motivated on his own.

你知道，他自己并没有超级积极性。

I was like, come along with me.

我当时想，跟我一起吧。

When Deanna went away to college, Jay said, I'll come, too.

当迪安娜去上大学时，杰伊说，我也会去。

When she broke up with him, his mom called her mom to ask if there was any way they could get back together.

当她和他分手时，他妈妈打电话给她妈妈，询问他们是否有什么办法可以复合。

Chris worked at the dollar store in the mall.

克里斯在商场的一元店工作。

Chris wanted more from his life.

克里斯想要从他的生活中得到更多。

Deanna was 19, and got him a job on the other side of the mall at a Sam Goody she used to work at.

迪安娜 19 岁，在商场另一边她曾经工作过的 Sam Goody 店给他找了一份工作。

She wanted more for him, too.

她也想为他提供更多。

He was funny, and moody, and he was the first person Deanna had sex with.

他很有趣，喜怒无常，他是迪安娜第一个与之发生性关系的人。

Mark wanted a job in film or TV, but nobody wanted to give him film or TV jobs.

马克想要一份电影或电视工作，但没有人愿意给他电影或电视工作。

It was his idea to move to New York, and once they were there, Deanna got a job first as a bookkeeper.

他的想法是搬到纽约，他们到达那里后，迪安娜首先找到了一份簿记员的工作。

Mark got no job.

马克没有找到工作。

She called his friends, his friends' friends, and found Mark an IT job, which he hated, so she found him another job at a magazine, and he worked there for the next 10 years.

她打电话给他的朋友，他朋友的朋友，给马克找到了一份 IT 工作，但他讨厌这份工作，于是她给他在一家杂志社找到了另一份工作，他在那里工作了 10 年。

Deanna moved out three weeks before 9/11.

迪安娜在 9/11 事件发生前三周搬了出去。

There was the German, the Israeli with the burger joint, men seemed to want wives, and Deanna didn't want to be a wife.

有德国人，有汉堡店的以色列人，男人似乎想要妻子，而迪安娜不想成为妻子。

Men also seemed to want her, but had no thoughts about what else that might look like.

男人们似乎也想要她，但没有想过她还会是什么样子。

They don't get you, her mom would say on the phone.

他们不明白你的意思，她妈妈会在电话里说。

You have to show them how to be with you.

你必须向他们展示如何和你在一起。

The Iraq War was starting, and so was the presidential race.

伊拉克战争即将开始，总统竞选也随之开始。

Deanna volunteered for the Howard Dean campaign.

迪安娜自愿参加霍华德·迪恩的竞选活动。

He had a rally in New York before her 28th birthday.

在她 28 岁生日之前，他在纽约举行了一次集会。

And while she was at the rally--

当她参加集会时——

This guy comes up to me, and he's got a reporter's pad, and he said, hey, after he's done talking, you know, can I talk to you?

这个人向我走来，他拿着记者席，他说，嘿，在他说完之后，你知道，我可以和你谈谈吗？

And I said, sure.

我说，当然。

And he said, you're a volunteer?

他说，你是志愿者吗？

An I said, yeah.

我说，是的。

And we talked for a really long time, and I actually got into an argument with him about Dennis Kucinich.

我们聊了很长时间，实际上我和他就丹尼斯·库西尼奇的问题发生了争执。

He was pro.

他是职业选手。

She understood, but come on, that guy could never win.

她明白，但是得了吧，那家伙永远赢不了。

And then he said, well, you know, can I have your email address?

然后他说，好吧，你知道，我可以知道你的电子邮件地址吗？

I'll send you the article when it's done.

文章完成后我会将其发送给您。

And I was like, sure, you know, what are you writing for, or whatever.

我当时想，当然，你知道，你写的目的是什么，或者其他什么。

And he was like, oh, I'm the Executive Editor of AlterNet.

他说，哦，我是 AlterNet 的执行编辑。

Don Hazen.

唐·哈森.

AlterNet was not a major publication, but Deanna knew it.

AlterNet 并不是一个主要出版物，但 Deanna 知道这一点。

She read it all the time.

她一直在读。

The next day, Don sent her his article, very pro-Dean, and a personal note to her.

第二天，唐把他的文章寄给了她，非常支持迪安，还给她写了一封私人便条。

See how much you influenced me already.

看看你对我的影响有多大。

And I was like, well, that's cool.

我当时想，嗯，这很酷。

I just convinced this, like, editor guy.

我只是说服了这个，比如编辑人员。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

I was like, that's really cool.

我当时想，这真的很酷。

Like, what made you change your mind?

比如，是什么让你改变了主意？

It started up this email conversation.

它开始了这个电子邮件对话。

He asked about her.

他问起了她。

Was she hoping to get into politics?

她希望从政吗？

What was her job?

她的工作是什么？

Did she like it?

她喜欢吗？

What else did she want to do?

她还想做什么？

It seemed really kind, and a little bit flirtatious, but I was fine with that.

看起来真的很友善，还有点调情，但我对此很满意。

Like, I liked having this super-interesting, compelling man interested in me.

就像，我喜欢这个超级有趣、引人注目的男人对我感兴趣。

Don lived in California, but had an apartment in New York for work.

唐住在加利福尼亚州，但在纽约有一套公寓用于工作。

Deanna couldn't quite guess his age.

迪安娜不太能猜出他的年龄。

She thought maybe mid-40s.

她想大概是40多岁吧。

He was 56.

他56岁了。

He'd be coming out to New York again.

他会再次来到纽约。

Did she want to get dinner?

她想去吃晚饭吗？

I kind of figured it was a date, and I did feel flirtatious with him.

我觉得这是一次约会，而且我确实对他有一种调情的感觉。

I did feel like, ooh, this is fun.

我确实觉得，哦，这很有趣。

It was fun.

很有趣。

He walked her home.

他送她回家。

They talked about the party she was planning for her 28th birthday, where she should have it.

他们谈论了她计划举办的 28 岁生日派对，她应该在哪里举办。

They made out outside her apartment, and the next day, Don asked her out again, dinner, and this time, back to his apartment.

他们在她的公寓外亲热，第二天，唐再次约她出去，共进晚餐，这一次，回到了他的公寓。

They were making out, got naked, and when she felt him push inside her, Deanna was startled.

他们正在亲热，赤身裸体，当她感觉到他推入她体内时，迪安娜吓了一跳。

It was abrupt, and he wasn't wearing a condom.

事情很突然，而且他没有戴安全套。

In Deanna's experience, someone always went and got the condom.

根据迪安娜的经验，总是有人去拿避孕套。

That had never happened before.

这以前从未发生过。

She felt slow, like she was floating in a silent conversation with herself.

她感觉自己很慢，就像漂浮在无声的自言自语中。

Uh-- should I say something?

呃——我应该说点什么吗？

Uh-- I think it's OK.

呃——我觉得还可以。

I mean, I don't really want to stop things.

我的意思是，我真的不想阻止事情发生。

He's older, she thought.

他年纪大了，她想。

Guys like that aren't getting around.

这样的人根本就混不下去。

Be nice to him.

对他好一点。

You're on birth control.

你正在采取节育措施。

You're not getting axe murdered right now.

你现在不会被斧头谋杀。

You're having a good time.

你玩得很开心。

You're fine.

你很好。

All right, let's just do this.

好吧，我们就这样做吧。

It was new and adventurous, and that's who Deanna wanted to be.

这是新的、富有冒险精神的，这就是迪安娜想要成为的人。

Plus, she felt powerful in that moment.

另外，那一刻她感觉自己很强大。

This is something that I am bestowing upon him, this youthful gift, this youthful body or something.

这是我要赐予他的东西，这个年轻的礼物，这个年轻的身体什么的。

Like, I did feel that way, and kind of like I was doing him a favor.

就像，我确实有这种感觉，有点像我在帮他一个忙。

And he seemed very, like, grateful, and I had not had that experience before.

他看起来非常非常感激，我以前没有过这样的经历。

With 25-year-old boys.

与25岁的男孩。

Deanna No, as it turns out, different-- real different.

迪安娜 不，事实证明，不同——真正的不同。

So, yeah, I definitely felt like this was a rare thing for him.

所以，是的，我确实觉得这对他来说是一件罕见的事情。

She thought about the condom thing again on the way home.

回家的路上她又想起了安全套的事。

Deanna's story about Don, that he was a good guy, a grown-up, self-actualized man who was taken by her was also a story about herself.

迪安娜关于唐的故事，说他是一个好人，一个成年人，自我实现的男人，被她所吸引，这也是一个关于她自己的故事。

She was powerful, interesting, could change his mind on important issues.

她很强大，很有趣，可以改变他对重要问题的看法。

The fact that he never even thought to ask about protection--

事实上他从来没有想过要寻求保护——

It just didn't make sense.

这根本没有道理。

And so my default was to trust that it was going to be OK.

所以我的默认就是相信一切都会好起来的。

It did not make sense to me, and I made sense of it, and that carried through the entire relationship.

这对我来说没有意义，但我理解了它，这贯穿了整个关系。

Don started giving her work.

唐开始给她布置工作。

He wanted her to help manage a big project for AlterNet.

他希望她帮助管理 AlterNet 的一个大项目。

Deanna said yes.

迪安娜说是的。

Don thought she was a poor fit for her corporate job.

唐认为她不适合她的公司工作。

She agreed.

她同意了。

When he was in town, they'd get dinner, spend the night or a weekend, which she loved, and then he'd leave, which she also loved.

当他在城里时，他们会吃晚饭，过夜或度周末，这是她喜欢的，然后他会离开，她也喜欢这样。

Don does not need things from her as her other boyfriends had.

唐不像她其他男朋友那样需要她的东西。

It was the opposite.

事实恰恰相反。

He set things up for her.

他为她安排好了一切。

He had an apartment for her to crash in, he had contacts she should meet, he bought her first Mac laptop, he helped her quit smoking, dinner was on him, and he did it all without demanding she be a wife.

他有一套公寓供她入住，他有她应该会见的联系人，他给她买了第一台 Mac 笔记本电脑，他帮助她戒烟，晚餐由他承担，他做这一切都没有要求她成为妻子。

It was seven months later that Deanna learned Don had a wife, a partner, actually, a distinction without a difference as far as Deanna was concerned, since Don explained that this was the woman he'd been with for years, Vivian, who you heard from earlier.

七个月后，迪安娜得知唐有一个妻子，一个伴侣，实际上，对迪安娜来说，这种区别没有区别，因为唐解释说，这是他在一起多年的女人，维维安，你之前听说过她。

They owned a house together, and she didn't know about Deanna.

他们共同拥有一所房子，而她不知道迪安娜的事。

She says it was one of their first fights.

她说这是他们第一次打架。

I can't believe you lied to me.

我不敢相信你对我撒谎。

And he was like, I didn't lie to you.

他说，我没有骗你。

I never lied to you.

我从来没有对你撒过谎。

And I was like, lying by omission is still lying.

我当时想，遗漏撒谎仍然是撒谎。

And he was like, you knew.

他就像，你知道。

And I'll never forget this word, he said, you've been colluding with me all along.

我永远不会忘记这句话，他说，你一直在跟我勾结。

And I was like, I don't think so.

我当时想，我不这么认为。

But she went back to old emails to references Don would make to his domestic situation.

但她又翻阅了旧电子邮件，参考了唐对他的家庭状况的提及。

Maybe she hadn't wanted to know.

或许她并不想知道。

She stopped sleeping with him.

她不再和他一起睡觉了。

She kept working for him.

她一直为他工作。

By now, they were working on a book together.

到目前为止，他们正在一起写一本书。

That meant seeing him, and when she saw him, she'd inevitably sleep with him again.

这意味着要见到他，而当她见到他时，她不可避免地会再次和他一起睡觉。

She liked him-- their conversations, their connection.

她喜欢他——他们的谈话，他们的联系。

He wasn't thrown by me in a way that felt like other men had been.

他不像其他人那样被我抛弃。

He wasn't-- he just wasn't afraid of me.

他不是——他只是不怕我。

He saw her as she wanted to be seen.

他看到了她希望被看到的样子。

She stayed in the secret affair, ignored his daily phone calls home to Vivian.

她留在秘密的恋情中，忽略了他每天给薇薇安家里打电话的情况。

Deanna wanted more time with Don, more contact, as he did with her.

迪安娜想要更多的时间和唐在一起，更多的接触，就像他对她所做的那样。

He could be annoying about it.

他可能会为此烦恼。

She started a folder called his, where are you emails.

她创建了一个名为“他的，你的电子邮件在哪里”的文件夹。

He didn't like lack of contact, or the wrong kind of contact.

他不喜欢缺乏联系，或者错误的联系。

He would say, why did you email me about personal stuff, and there's no work info in here?

他会说，你为什么给我发电子邮件谈论个人事情，而这里没有工作信息？

Like, I need to know what's happening.

就像，我需要知道发生了什么事。

I need to know where things are.

我需要知道东西在哪里。

I need to know what we're working on.

我需要知道我们正在做什么。

And I'm like, OK, so I'd send him the work email.

我想，好吧，所以我会给他发工作电子邮件。

Why isn't there anything emotional here?

为什么这里没有任何情感呢？

Don't you love me?

你不爱我吗？

I guess you don't care about me.

我猜你并不关心我。

Like, he would send these, like, super-victimy emails.

就像，他会发送这些超级受害者电子邮件。

That was also the point where he started talking to me more about the staff, and his frustrations at work, and his, I don't want to do all this anymore, but everyone that works for me is so incompetent that I have to be in there all the time doing all these things for them.

也是从那时起，他开始和我更多地谈论员工，以及他在工作中的挫败感，还有他的，我不想再做这一切了，但是为我工作的每个人都很无能，所以我必须一直在那里为他们做所有这些事情。

By now, Deanna had met a lot of Don's staff.

到目前为止，迪安娜已经认识了唐的很多员工。

He'd started flying her out to California as a consultant for AlterNet.

他开始带她飞往加利福尼亚州，担任 AlterNet 的顾问。

So she'd see him in his office.

所以她会在他的办公室见到他。

He was just a very demanding boss, just yelling at people, like, why can't you get this right, and what's wrong with you?

他只是一个要求很高的老板，只是对人们大喊大叫，比如，你为什么不能把这件事做好，你到底出了什么问题？

Deanna tried to make sense of this behavior.

迪安娜试图理解这种行为。

He was angry and insecure.

他很生气，也没有安全感。

This was not the easy-going, confident man she'd signed up for.

这不是她所签约的那个随和、自信的男人。

She wanted to be supportive, the way he'd been supportive of her, but this felt all new to her.

她想要支持他，就像他支持她一样，但这对她来说是全新的。

If we had been to an event together, he would watch how much I was drinking, and would accuse me later of drinking too much and being too tired to want to have sex with him, and starting a fight about that.

如果我们一起参加一个活动，他会观察我喝了多少酒，然后会指责我喝得太多，太累了，不想和他发生性关系，并为此开始争吵。

What do you mean?

你是什​​么意思？

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Why are you tired?

你为什么累？

Like, I had a really long day.

就像，我度过了漫长的一天。

And he was like, well, you knew you were seeing me tonight.

他说，好吧，你知道今晚要见我。

Like, why did you have a long day, like, why did you do so much?

比如，你为什么度过了漫长的一天，比如，你为什么做了这么多？

And I'm like, well, one, I was working for you.

我想，嗯，一，我在为你工作。

And two-- you know, and I would defend myself.

还有两个——你知道，我会为自己辩护。

And then he would get really assertive, and red-faced, eyes bulging, you know, veins popping, and he was scary as shit when he was angry.

然后他就会变得非常自信，脸红，眼睛凸，你知道，血管爆裂，当他生气的时候，他简直可怕极了。

Deanna started giving in to sex.

迪安娜开始向性屈服。

Not I don't feel like it, but I love you sex.

不是我不喜欢，而是我爱你的性。

This was sex to end a fight.

这是为了结束争吵而发生的性行为。

Having sex could shut down the behavior that was not making sense, the parts that did not fit into Deanna's story of a powerful woman who was having adventures with a man who was not challenged by her power.

发生性行为可以阻止那些没有意义的行为，这些行为与迪安娜的故事不符。迪安娜讲述了一个强大的女人与一个没有受到她权力挑战的男人一起冒险的故事。

Act 2, "The Dinner." Onnesha had just started at AlterNet.

第二幕，“晚餐”。 Onnesha 刚刚开始在 AlterNet 工作。

She was still getting a lay of the land.

她仍在了解情况。

She was bright, ambitious, ready for her chance, and here it was.

她聪明、雄心勃勃，准备好迎接机会，而机会就在眼前。

The staff was friendly.

工作人员很友好。

The boss, Don, was too sometimes.

老板唐有时也很过分。

Don was very mercurial, very, very moody.

唐非常善变，非常非常喜怒无常。

Sometimes it would be, like, compliments and praise; other times it would just-- he would be, like, furious about the pettiest thing.

有时是赞美、赞美；其他时候，他只是——比如，对最微不足道的事情感到愤怒。

But she generally escaped his anger.

但她一般都逃脱了他的愤怒。

Onnesha learned early how to anticipate his moods, keep it professional.

奥内沙很早就学会了如何预测自己的情绪，并保持专业。

She kept her distance.

她保持着距离。

A couple months in, the whole AlterNet staff got together for some meetings.

几个月后，AlterNet 的全体员工聚在一起召开了一些会议。

Everyone came.

大家都来了。

Don flew a couple of people out from New York, including a consultant for AlterNet named Deanna.

唐从纽约带了几个人过来，其中包括一位名叫迪安娜的 AlterNet 顾问。

Onnesha didn't know Deanna really.

奥内莎并不真正认识迪安娜。

She seemed nice.

她看起来不错。

After the meetings, they all went out to dinner, and Onnesha saw that Deanna was sitting next to Don, but made nothing of that.

会议结束后，他们都出去吃晚饭，奥内莎看到迪安娜坐在唐旁边，但没有理会。

It was Onnesha's colleague, Laura, who noticed it first.

最先注意到这一点的是 Onnesha 的同事 Laura。

Here's Laura.

这是劳拉。

During that dinner, I glanced over and noticed that she was cutting up the meat on Don's plate, like his steak or something, and I was just like what-- I was just like, what is happening?

在那顿晚餐期间，我瞥了一眼，注意到她正在切唐盘子里的肉，比如他的牛排之类的，我当时就想——我就想，发生了什么事？

This is so strange to me.

这对我来说太奇怪了。

Cutting his meat, like she was leaning over his plate?

切他的肉，就像她靠在他的盘子上一样？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, they were sitting right next to each other in a tight-- you know, it was a big table, but a crowded restaurant.

是的，他们紧紧地坐在一起——你知道，那是一张大桌子，但却是一家拥挤的餐厅。

So they were sitting very close together, and she was just, like, leaning over, like it was her plate.

所以他们坐得很近，而她只是靠过来，就像这是她的盘子一样。

But I mean, it's not normal.

但我的意思是，这不正常。

It's just not normal.

这不正常。

It's just like, why would he need that?

就像，他为什么需要那个？

Why would she need to do that?

她为什么需要这样做？

Why was he letting her do that?

他为什么要让她这么做？

Did he ask her to do it?

他要求她这么做吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I mean, there was something about it that was just very profoundly disturbing.

我的意思是，其中有一些事情非常令人深感不安。

Oh, it was so weird.

哦，太奇怪了。

Oh, she's, like, cutting his meat for him.

哦，她就像在为他切肉。

Onnesha eventually noticed it, too, and she could not figure out what is up with this woman.

奥尼莎最终也注意到了这一点，但她不明白这个女人到底怎么了。

I just don't understand this dynamic.

我只是不明白这个动态。

Like, the manual I had constructed on how to navigate and deal with Don, I was just like flipping through all the pages, I was like, nope, nope, nope, what, no. I have no guide for this, where to place this behavior.

就像我编写的关于如何导航和处理唐的手册一样，我就像翻阅所有页面一样，我就像，不，不，不，什么，不。我没有这方面的指导，也不知道在哪里放置这种行为。

There's really no rationalization.

确实没有任何合理化。

I could think of no possible reason for that to be a thing happening right at that moment that made sense beyond, they're sleeping together.

我想不出任何可能的理由让那一刻发生的事情比他们睡在一起更有意义。

But it still didn't make sense.

但这仍然没有意义。

After that dinner, Laura and Onnesha left, and never mentioned it.

晚餐后，劳拉和奥内莎离开了，再也没有提起过这件事。

They didn't talk to each other about it, or anyone else in the office.

他们没有互相谈论这件事，也没有和办公室里的任何人谈论这件事。

Onnesha says it just didn't feel like fun office gossip.

奥内莎说，这感觉不像是有趣的办公室八卦。

It felt like something she didn't want anything to do with.

这感觉就像是她不想与之有任何关系的事情。

She didn't know anything about the woman sitting in that chair next to Don, but Onnesha had always known she did not want to be in that chair.

她对坐在唐旁边椅子上的那个女人一无所知，但奥内莎一直都知道她不想坐在那张椅子上。

Act 3, "Onnesha." Most other girls quit being friends with boys earlier, but Onnesha was 13, and she still liked her friends.

第三幕，“Onnesha”。大多数女孩都更早不再和男孩做朋友了，但 Onnesha 已经 13 岁了，她仍然喜欢她的朋友。

That summer, she hung out with the same boys she always had, in the same places-- the kitchen, her friend's basement playroom, or--

那年夏天，她和以前的男孩们一起出去玩，在同样的地方——厨房，她朋友的地下室游戏室，或者——

We would all go to the pool together, and I had this tie dyed bathing suit, this one-piece.

我们都会一起去游泳池，我有一套扎染的连体泳衣。

And you know, like, most of my other friends were, like, wearing bikinis.

你知道，我的大多数其他朋友都穿着比基尼。

But you know, it was like, no, I'm good.

但你知道，就像，不，我很好。

At the snack bar, they would get popsicles.

在小吃店，他们会买冰棍。

You know, there would always be, like, talk about the scene at the pool, you know, like, talking about different girls, that would occasionally be part of a conversation.

你知道，总会有，比如，谈论游泳池里的场景，你知道，比如，谈论不同的女孩，这偶尔会成为谈话的一部分。

I think they probably reined it in when I was around, but there would occasionally be comments.

我认为当我在场时他们可能会控制住它，但偶尔会有评论。

And so they were, like, they had named someone The Hypnotizer.

所以他们，就像，他们给某人命名为“催眠师”。

Like, there was this title for some woman.

就像，这个头衔是给某个女人的。

It would have been nothing if it was like the other girls they talked about, a passing thing.

如果像她们谈论的其他女孩一样，只是一闪而过的话，那就没什么了。

But this one persisted for weeks.

但这种情况持续了数周。

It got to a point, I recall, where they talked about it enough that I was like, oh, who is she?

我记得，他们谈论得足够多，以至于我就想，哦，她是谁？

You know, I wanted to be in on it.

你知道，我想参与其中。

I was, like, show her to me, you know.

我就像把她展示给我看，你知道。

And they were all cryptic about it.

他们对此都讳莫如深。

They were like, oh The Hypnotizer, The Hypnotizer.

他们就像，哦催眠师，催眠师。

Oh, she's here.

哦，她来了。

Or, like, did you see The Hypnotizer.

或者，就像，你看过《催眠者》吗？

And I can't remember how I found out, but eventually I found out it was me.

我不记得我是怎么发现的，但最终我发现是我。

It was the first time Onnesha had the feeling.

这是昂尼莎第一次有这种感觉。

There was her, and there was someone else she hadn't known was there, a person who looked good to these boys, her friends.

那里有她，还有一个她不认识的人在那里，一个对这些男孩、她的朋友来说看起来很好的人。

I guess a part of me was pleased by that, but the more prevalent feeling was like whiplash.

我想我的一部分对此感到高兴，但更普遍的感觉就像是鞭打。

They were talking about me in front of me.

他们在我面前谈论我。

It's like there was the me that was present and there and interacting with them, and then there was this other separate, objectified body.

就好像有一个我在场并在那里与他们互动，然后还有另一个独立的、客观化的身体。

It just feels like this whole other person enters the room.

感觉就像整个另一个人进入了房间。

Another person who is you?

另一个人是你吗？

Onnesha Yeah.

奥内莎 是的。

Well, or I guess, fundamentally, I felt the same.

嗯，或者我想，从根本上来说，我也有同样的感觉。

But suddenly, I had to reckon with the fact that I did not look the same to other people.

但突然间，我不得不面对这样一个事实：我在其他人看来并不一样。

It was obvious to Onnesha how to reckon with that.

对于奥内莎来说，如何应对这一点是显而易见的。

She needed to crush that other person.

她需要粉碎那个人。

She did not want to wear the tie dye bathing suit ever again.

她不想再穿扎染泳衣了。

She slouched.

她无精打采。

She wore baggy clothes.

她穿着宽松的衣服。

It wasn't like a decision or anything, it was just instinct.

这不像是一个决定或什么，这只是本能。

She watched the girls in bikinis that summer, and considered if they somehow had the opposite instinct, or maybe they had made a decision to actively try to merge the two girls, the one with breasts and the one from before.

那年夏天，她看着那些穿比基尼的女孩，想着她们是否有相反的本能，或者也许她们已经决定积极尝试融合这两个女孩，一个有乳房的女孩，一个以前的女孩。

It really seemed easy for some of them, like they welcomed it.

对于他们中的一些人来说，这确实看起来很容易，就像他们对此表示欢迎一样。

And a part of me wishes that I could do that, sort of own it, you know, and, like, use it like a power.

我内心的一部分希望我能做到这一点，拥有它，你知道，并且，就像，像使用一种力量一样使用它。

And it's just never struck me as a power.

我从来没有觉得它是一种力量。

It feels like a false power.

感觉就像是一种虚假的力量。

It feels like if that is somehow getting me attention, like it could turn.

感觉如果这以某种方式引起了我的注意，就像它可能会扭转一样。

Like, that's not a safe kind of power to traffic in.

就像，这不是一种安全的交通力量。

By the time Onnesha met Don, she wouldn't have been able to say if wearing loose clothing was her fashion sense or strategy.

当奥内莎遇到唐时，她已经无法确定穿宽松的衣服是否是她的时尚感或策略。

She was 23 years old.

她当时23岁。

She'd been guarding against that separate person, The Hypnotizer, for a decade by that point.

在那之前的十年里，她一直在提防那个独立的人，催眠师。

AlterNet was Onnesha's first real job, the first time she had a desk that was hers, the first time she learned a male colleague was getting paid more than her for the same work, the first time she asked for a raise from her boss, Don, which did not go how Onnesha expected.

AlterNet 是 Onnesha 的第一份真正的工作，她第一次拥有一张属于自己的办公桌，第一次得知同一份工作，男同事的工资比她高，第一次向老板 Don 要求加薪，但结果并没有达到 Onnesha 的预期。

Yeah, so I, like, build this whole case, and I get in there, and I'm nervous.

是的，所以我喜欢构建整个案例，然后我就进去了，我很紧张。

I have my opening foray where I'm just like, you know, I've been doing x and y, and the quality of the work I've been doing, how I've been working really hard, and I'm like, you know, and it's hard to survive in this city on such a low salary.

我一开始就想，你知道，我一直在做x和y，以及我一直在做的工作的质量，我一直在努力工作，我想，你知道，以如此低的薪水很难在这个城市生存。

He just, like, latched onto that.

他只是抓住了这一点。

And he kind of leaned in, and was like, oh, are you having trouble paying rent?

他靠过来问，哦，你付房租有困难吗？

And I remember that so specifically, because it was like, my rent.

我记得很清楚，因为这就像我的房租。

It was so oddly personal, and unnecessary, and out of left field, and I was completely disarmed.

这太奇怪了，太个人化了，没有必要，而且超出了我的范围，我完全放下了武装。

And I didn't know how to respond.

我不知道该如何回应。

And I think I just sort of stuttered, and was like, no, it's not that.

我想我只是有点结巴，然后就想，不，不是那样的。

He wasn't offering to pay her rent directly, just did she need a salary increase to help pay her rent, which Onnesha did not want to talk about.

他并不是主动提出直接支付她的房租，只是她需要加薪来帮助支付房租，这是Onnesha不想谈论的。

I don't remember whether I said no, I'm not having trouble paying rent.

我不记得我是否拒绝了，我付房租没有困难。

I think I'd tried to avoid answering that, because I didn't want-- I felt like that was none of his business.

我想我曾试图避免回答这个问题，因为我不想——我觉得这不关他的事。

But when I tried to shift the conversation back to this is about being compensated, I don't remember if he got angry angry, but he was definitely visibly displeased.

但当我试图将话题转移回关于获得补偿时，我不记得他是否生气了，但他显然很不高兴。

And he did not want to give me a raise.

而且他不想给我加薪。

Wait, but had you-- what would have happened had you said, yeah, I am having trouble paying my rent.

等等，但是如果你——如果你说，是的，我付不起房租，会发生什么。

He would have won.

他本来会赢的。

Chana Joffe-Walt What do you mean, he would have won?

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特（Chana Joffe-Walt） 你是什么意思，他本来会赢？

He would have won a little corner of more power over me.

他本来可以赢得比我更大的权力的一小部分。

Wait, but would he have paid it?

等等，但他会付钱吗？

Would you have--

你愿意——

Probably.

可能吧。

Chana Joffe-Walt --gotten money.

Chana Joffe-Walt——有钱了。

He probably would have.

他可能会的。

Chana Joffe-Walt Oh, so you would have won.

Chana Joffe-Walt 噢，所以你就赢了。

You would have gotten more money.

你会得到更多的钱。

Chana Joffe-Walt Onnesha felt like Don was not talking to her, but to The Hypnotizer, that he did not want to engage her as a professional discussing her compensation, but as an attractive young woman struggling with her rent.

查娜·乔菲-沃尔特·奥内莎 (Chana Joffe-Walt Onnesha) 觉得唐不是在跟她说话，而是在跟催眠师说话，他不想让她作为一个专业人士来讨论她的薪酬，而是作为一个为房租而苦苦挣扎的有吸引力的年轻女性。

He didn't want to be a boss paying for her work, but a savior paying for her life.

他不想做一个为她工作付出代价的老板，而是为她付出生命的救世主。

Onnesha didn't want that kind of help.

奥内莎不需要那种帮助。

Maybe it's kind of petty, but I was like, you are not going to win.

也许这有点小事，但我当时想，你不会赢。

[CHUCKLING] Like, you don't get to have this.

[咯咯笑]就像，你不能拥有这个。

Act 4, "The Cliff." The summer of Onnesha's first year at AlterNet, Don left for several weeks of sabbatical.

第四幕，“悬崖”。 Onnesha 在 AlterNet 工作的第一年夏天，Don 休假了几周。

A friend had offered Don the use of his vacation house in Big Sur, California.

一位朋友向唐提供了他在加利福尼亚州大苏尔的度假屋的使用权。

He headed out, and wrote Deanna, asking her to join him.

他出发了，写信给迪安娜，邀请她和他一起去。

It's the cliff of the universe, he wrote, what someone calls the greatest meeting of land and sea.

他写道，这是宇宙的悬崖，有人称之为陆地和海洋最伟大的交汇处。

Deanna wrote back, bring me soon, please.

迪安娜回信说，请尽快带我来。

Don flew her out, picked her up from the airport, and they drove to the house together.

唐送她出去，从机场接她，然后他们一起开车回家。

We went to bed and started fooling around, and he stops, and he says, we probably shouldn't have sex.

我们上床睡觉，开始鬼混，他停了下来，他说，我们可能不应该发生性行为。

And I said, how come?

我说，怎么会呢？

Don said he had an STI, a sexually transmitted infection.

唐说他患有性传播感染（STI）。

He'd had it for a long time, hadn't had symptoms in years.

他已经患了很长时间了，很多年没有出现任何症状了。

And I was just started, like, I actually got dizzy.

我刚开始，我真的头晕了。

I'm like, hold up, what?

我想，等等，什么？

Wait.

等待。

We have been having sex without condoms for two years, and now you're telling me that you-- and he was like, it's not a big deal.

我们已经在没有安全套的情况下发生性行为两年了，现在你告诉我你——他说，这没什么大不了的。

I've had it since I was 16.

我从16岁起就一直这样。

And I was like, it's definitely a big fucking deal.

我当时想，这绝对是一件大事。

And I got really angry, like, I cannot believe you would risk my health this way, and like da da da, this is really fucked up.

我真的很生气，就像，我不敢相信你会这样拿我的健康冒险，就像哒哒哒一样，这真的很糟糕。

And he was like, why are you getting so upset about this?

他说，你为什么对此如此不安？

This is not a big deal.

这没什么大不了的。

I was like, yes, it most certain-- this is an STI, like-- and he cannot understand why I am upset at all.

我当时想，是的，这是最确定的——这是一种性传播感染，就像——他根本无法理解我为什么感到不安。

Eventually, Don did seem to get that Deanna was upset, and began to comfort her.

最终，唐似乎确实意识到迪安娜很不安，并开始安慰她。

She calmed down, wanted to go to sleep.

她平静下来，想睡觉。

He started wanting to fool around again.

他又开始想胡闹了。

You're kind of not up for this right now, like, this all feels-- and he was like, well, we don't have to have sex, and whatever.

你现在有点不适合这个，就像，这一切感觉——而他就像，好吧，我们不必做爱，等等。

And then he was like, we can have anal sex.

然后他说，我们可以肛交。

And I was like, blink, blink, no.

我当时想，眨眼，眨眼，不。

She did not want to do that.

她不想那样做。

Deanna And we were naked in bed.

迪安娜 我们赤身裸体躺在床上。

He was spooning me, and he made a move like he was going to penetrate me.

他用勺子搂住我，他的动作就像是要刺穿我一样。

And I jumped up and yelped, what the fuck?

我跳起来大喊，搞什么鬼？

And I was like, what are you doing?

我当时想，你在做什么？

And he was like, what do you mean, what am I doing?

他说，你是什么意思，我在做什么？

I'm just, you know, like I want to be with you.

我只是，你知道，我想和你在一起。

I want to, like, you know--

我想要，就像，你知道——

And I was like, you're starting to pressure me, and it's starting to make me really uncomfortable.

我当时想，你开始给我施加压力，这开始让我感到非常不舒服。

This is messed up.

这真是一团糟。

And he flipped out.

然后他就疯了。

He stood up, and he just started screaming at me.

他站起来，开始对我尖叫。

He was like, how can you say that?

他说，你怎么能这么说呢？

How can you say that I'm pressuring you?

你怎么能说我给你压力呢？

I am the most feminist man you know, and you know it.

我是你认识的最女权主义的男人，你也知道这一点。

And that's fucked up.

那太糟糕了。

So he starts screaming at me, like, the eyes bulging, the red--

于是他开始对我尖叫，就像，眼睛凸出，红色——

He's screaming, I am the most feminist man--

他尖叫着，我是最女权主义的男人——

And then he-- the bedroom was sort of right on the other side of the kitchen, and he goes into the kitchen and just starts slamming stuff, and throwing stuff, and I'm just hearing shit smashing in the other room, and I am naked in some dude's bed in fucking Big Sur.

然后他——卧室就在厨房的另一边，他走进厨房，开始摔东西、扔东西，我只听到另一个房间里有狗屎破碎的声音，而我赤身裸体地躺在他妈的大苏尔某个家伙的床上。

I don't know how to get out.

我不知道如何出去。

(VOICE BREAKING) I'm sorry.

（声音断断续续）对不起。

And eventually, it just stopped.

最终，它就停止了。

I just sat there the whole time, like I didn't know.

我一直坐在那里，就像我不知道一样。

You were in the bed?

你当时在床上吗？

Deanna Yeah, I just stayed in the bed.

Deanna 是的，我只是呆在床上。

He came back eventually and slept with his back to me, which was like his cold shoulder move.

他最终回来了，背对着我睡觉，这就像他的冷落举动。

And I just laid there thinking like, I don't know what's going to happen next.

我只是躺在那里想，我不知道接下来会发生什么。

Because I really didn't want to challenge him.

因为我实在不想挑战他。

I just had to start making sense of everything around me, and being OK with everything.

我只需要开始理解周围的一切，并接受一切。

So if you're not going to challenge him or talk to him about it, then how are you going to make sense of it?

因此，如果你不打算挑战他或与他谈论这件事，那么你如何理解它呢？

[SOFT CHUCKLE] Shut this out, don't think about this again, and do whatever you can to not make it happen again.

[轻笑] 把这件事排除在外，不要再想这件事，并尽你所能不让它再次发生。

Deanna would manage, manage her feelings, his temper, manage them away from explosive moments.

迪安娜会管理，管理她的感情，管理他的脾气，管理它们，让它们远离爆炸性的时刻。

This is what it meant to be close to someone.

这就是与某人亲近的意思。

Managing a relationship was a role Deanna had practice in.

管理关系是迪安娜所扮演的角色。

It made sense to her.

这对她来说很有意义。

I have been told my whole life that I was going to have difficult relationships with men, that nothing, none of this was going to be easy.

我一生都被告知，我将与男人建立困难的关系，没有什么，这一切都不会是容易的。

They warned me that this was how my relationships were going to be.

他们警告我，这就是我的人际关系。

They were going to be very difficult and challenging, and so this was like, OK.

他们将会非常困难和具有挑战性，所以这就像，好吧。

That was how it was going to be for me.

我的情况就是如此。

It took three years for Deana to break up with Don after that.

迪安娜三年后才与唐分手。

She wasn't angry when she did, just tired and sad.

当她这样做时，她并没有生气，只是疲倦和悲伤。

She told him she loved him, but she couldn't keep doing this.

她告诉他她爱他，但她不能继续这样做。

He wasn't angry either.

他也没生气。

She thought he would be, but he was gentle.

她以为他会的，但他很温柔。

He said he knew the day would come.

他说他知道这一天会到来。

They both cried.

他们都哭了。

After that, she'd still run into him at professional or social events.

此后，她仍然会在职业或社交活动中遇到他。

They were friendly.

他们很友好。

A few years after they broke up, Deanna went to a protest uptown.

他们分手几年后，迪安娜去了住宅区的一个抗议活动。

And my friends were staging part of the protest, so I went to be supportive.

我的朋友们也参与了抗议活动，所以我也去支持。

And I ran into Don there.

我在那里遇到了唐。

And he was like, well, this is something.

他说，好吧，这就是东西。

You know, we were just kind of, like, chit-chatting.

你知道，我们只是闲聊。

I hadn't seen him in a while.

我有一段时间没见到他了。

And you know, whatever, whatever.

你知道，无论如何，无论如何。

And we're kind of walking along with the protest, and talking to different people.

我们正在与抗议活动一起行走，并与不同的人交谈。

There was a young woman walking nearby with a reporter's notepad.

附近有一位年轻女子拿着记者的记事本走过。

She was looking around and quickly scribbling notes.

她环顾四周，快速地记下笔记。

And I've actually watched, like, it felt like watching the Terminator a little bit, he just looked and zeroed in on her, and just bee lined over to her and said, who are you writing for?

我实际上看过，感觉就像看《终结者》一样，他只是看着并瞄准她，然后对她说，你在为谁写作？

And she's like, oh, you know, I'm a student.

她就像，哦，你知道，我是一名学生。

And he's like, you don't have a place for this article yet?

他说，你还没有地方放这篇文章吗？

I'll give you a place for-- you know, do you want to pitch me?

我会给你一个位置——你知道吗，你想推销我吗？

And she was like, who are you you?

她说，你是谁？

And he introduces himself, and says AlterNet.

他自我介绍说，AlterNet。

She was like, oh, it would be great to write for AlterNet.

她说，哦，如果能为 AlterNet 写文章那就太棒了。

This is Kristen.

这是克里斯汀。

Kristen was a determined 21-year-old who bought the same breakfast sandwich from the same cafe everyday, because she knew what she liked and she had no need for wasting time.

克里斯汀是一位意志坚定的 21 岁女孩，每天都会从同一家咖啡馆购买同样的早餐三明治，因为她知道自己喜欢什么，而且不需要浪费时间。

Kristen had never actually heard of AlterNet, but she knew she wanted to be a reporter, and this guy had a business card and she didn't.

克里斯汀实际上从未听说过 AlterNet，但她知道自己想成为一名记者，而这个人有一张名片，而她没有。

I was a journalism student undergrad at NYU.

我是纽约大学新闻系的本科生。

Don told her to send him her article, and if it was good, he'd publish it.

唐让她把文章发给他，如果文章不错，他就会发表。

Kristen said she definitely would.

克里斯汀说她肯定会的。

Deanna was off to the side, watching.

迪安娜在一旁看着。

And I got so mad, because it just seemed so gross.

我很生气，因为这看起来太恶心了。

And I heard that tone of voice.

我听到了那种语气。

And I had to remembered how he had said things like that to me, like, I'll give you a job, you know, like, I'll help you.

我必须记住他是如何对我说过这样的话，比如，我会给你一份工作，你知道，比如，我会帮助你。

I'll support you.

我会支持你。

And I got so angry, I just looked at him, I was like, I can't fucking believe you.

我很生气，我只是看着他，我想，我他妈的不敢相信你。

And he was like, what?

他说，什么？

And I was like, I'm out of here.

我当时想，我要离开这里了。

I'm done.

我受够了。

The story they had created together had just been obliterated.

他们共同创造的故事就这样被抹杀了。

They weren't co-creators.

他们不是共同创造者。

This was his story.

这就是他的故事。

Deanna was a set piece.

迪安娜是一个固定角色。

It made me so sick to my stomach.

这让我的胃很不舒服。

I wasn't that special.

我并没有那么特别。

And seeing her kind of brightness and enthusiasm, like, wow, someone wants to give me an opportunity, cool.

看到她的阳光和热情，就像，哇，有人想给我一个机会，太酷了。

I was so angry.

我很生气。

I was so angry.

我很生气。

Oh, God.

哦，上帝。

Deanna left, went home.

黛安娜离开，回家了。

Kristen went home, too.

克里斯汀也回家了。

She wrote and rewrote her article until it was 2:00 in the morning and she knew she had to get it off to Don.

她写了又重写她的文章，直到凌晨 2:00，她知道她必须把它交给唐。

And I was excited.

我很兴奋。

Yeah, I thought, wow, this is a crazy chance incident, and maybe this will be good, and turn into something, and it did turn into something.

是的，我想，哇，这是一次疯狂的偶然事件，也许这会是件好事，并且会变成某种东西，而它确实变成了某种东西。

Coming up, the story starts over, but it's going to go so differently next time.

接下来，故事会重新开始，但下一次的情况会有所不同。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Chana Joffe-Walt.

我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特。

Today's show, "Five Women." We wanted to take one of the Me Too stories, where you hear about encounters women have with men who abuse their power in the workplace, and expand that to look at the lives of the women before that encounter.

今天的节目是《五个女人》。我们想借鉴 Me Too 的一个故事，在其中你会听到女性在工作场所与滥用权力的男性的遭遇，并将其扩展以了解遭遇之前女性的生活。

And we're telling the story of several women who worked for the same person, Don Hazen, at AlterNet over the course of 13 years.

我们正在讲述几位女性的故事，她们在 AlterNet 为同一个人 Don Hazen 工作了 13 年。

So we met Deanna and Onnesha, and we just met Kristen, the student at NYU.

所以我们遇到了迪安娜和昂内莎，我们刚刚遇到了纽约大学的学生克里斯汀。

Kristen is going to come back.

克里斯汀要回来了。

You need to meet someone else first.

你需要先见见其他人。

Act 5, "Tana.".

第五幕，“塔娜”。

Tana was asked to have an opinion about Anita Hill.

塔娜被问及对安妮塔·希尔的看法。

It was 1991, and she was in the third grade.

那是1991年，她上三年级。

Her opinion was that it was wrong, because she knew that was the opinion she was supposed to have.

她的意见是这是错误的，因为她知道这是她应该有的意见。

The opinion Tana actually had was not one she imagined the adults were asking for.

塔娜实际上的意见并不是她想象中的大人们所要求的。

I remember thinking that it wasn't that big of a deal, but I think that my natural instinct-- and I mean, again, I was a child --was maybe people were freaking out a little bit too much.

我记得我当时想这没什么大不了的，但我认为我的本能——我的意思是，我还是个孩子——也许人们有点害怕了。

Maybe everyone should be a little bit more chill.

也许每个人都应该冷静一点。

By 10th grade, she was stronger in her conviction.

到了十年级，她的信念更加坚定了。

She knew about sex, and she knew about feminism, and she believed that if Monica Lewinsky wanted to have sex with someone, or blow them, or whatever actually happened in the Oval Office, that was her choice.

她了解性，也了解女权主义，她相信，如果莫妮卡·莱温斯基想和某人发生性关系，或者给他们口交，或者椭圆形办公室里实际发生的任何事情，那都是她的选择。

Men had been allowed to follow their bliss forever.

人们被允许永远追求他们的幸福。

They went a little too far, but that had been corrected, and now Tana could see things had swung too far in the other direction.

他们有点太过分了，但这一点已经得到纠正，现在塔娜可以看到事情已经朝另一个方向走得太远了。

Oh, nobody can have sex anymore.

哦，没有人可以再发生性行为了。

That's terrible.

太可怕了。

That was the impression I got.

这就是我的印象。

Like, I just envisioned the US workplace as a bunch of bureaucratic, fun-hating HR people taking you to jail if you said someone looked nice.

就像，我只是想象美国的工作场所是一群官僚、讨厌有趣的人力资源人员，如果你说某人看起来不错，就会把你送进监狱。

One of her first bosses was Jeff.

她的第一位老板是杰夫。

He ran a shop in town.

他在城里经营一家商店。

Tana had just started college, but it was summer, so she spent most of her days at the shop.

塔娜刚刚上大学，但当时是夏天，所以她大部分时间都在商店里度过。

And he would always tell me these awful things about his wife, where he'd say, you know, she's so beautiful, when she walks down a restaurant, all men, you know, whiplash to check her out, but I'm just sick of her.

他总是会告诉我关于他妻子的这些可怕的事情，他会说，你知道，她是如此美丽，当她走进一家餐馆时，所有男人，你知道，都想看看她，但我只是厌倦了她。

Want to go out to dinner, can I get you a sandwich?

想出去吃饭，我可以给你买个三明治吗？

You know, like, you're so tiny.

你知道吗，你太小了。

Can I grab your waist?

我可以抱住你的腰吗？

He definitely tried to physically grab me a lot.

他确实经常试图用身体抓住我。

It was irritating, but Tana tried really hard not to show it because Jeff was middle-aged, miserable, she'd heard his wife kicked him out.

这很令人恼火，但塔娜努力不表现出来，因为杰夫已经中年，很痛苦，她听说他的妻子把他赶了出去。

A coworker said he found Jeff in the shop one morning, waking up surrounded by beer bottles.

一位同事说，一天早上他在店里发现杰夫，醒来时周围都是啤酒瓶。

He made Tana uncomfortable, but he was so pitiful that it felt unreasonable to attach any value to her discomfort.

他让塔娜感到不舒服，但他是如此可怜，以至于对她的不舒服给予任何重视都感觉不合理。

Like when her friend at work, a guy her age, told her, Jeff always talks about you.

就像她的工作朋友（一个与她同龄的人）告诉她，杰夫总是谈论你。

It's really creepy.

真是令人毛骨悚然。

And he goes, [SIGHING] Jeff always talks to me about how he just wants to put his head between your breasts, and just go

然后他说，[叹息]杰夫总是跟我说他只是想把他的头放在你的乳房之间，然后就走

Like the motorboating sound, and this guy said that.

喜欢摩托艇的声音，这个家伙这么说。

And I was like, are you kidding me?

我当时想，你在开玩笑吗？

That's the saddest thing.

这才是最可悲的事情。

That's what a 12-year-old would say.

这是一个12岁的孩子会说的话。

This is a grown-ass man.

这是一个成熟的男人。

How could he say that?

他怎么能这么说呢？

I just remember being, like, so grossed out.

我只记得当时感觉很恶心。

Jeff denies all of this, by the way.

顺便说一下，杰夫否认了这一切。

Tana did tell her parents, though it took her a while.

塔娜确实告诉了她的父母，尽管她花了一段时间。

They were protective.

他们是保护性的。

She was worried they would make her quit.

她担心他们会让她辞职。

And then, they were driving one day, her mom, her dad, Tana in the backseat.

然后，有一天他们开车，她的妈妈，她的爸爸，塔娜坐在后座。

Then I was like, mom and dad, I have something to tell you.

然后我就想，爸爸妈妈，我有话要告诉你们。

And I was very dramatic about it.

我对此感到非常戏剧化。

And they're like what?

而他们就像什么？

What happened?

发生了什么？

And I remember, like, taking a deep breath and saying--

我记得，就像，深呼吸然后说——

[SIGHING] --I've been sexually harassed.

[叹气]——我受到了性骚扰。

And they kind of laughed in my face, and they're like, what the hell do you expect, you're a 19-year-old woman.

他们当着我的面嘲笑我，他们说，你到底想做什么，你是一个 19 岁的女人。

Of course you're being sexually harassed.

当然，你被性骚扰了。

I thought, oh, that's just a thing that happens that I can accept everywhere I'm going to work.

我想，哦，这只是发生在我要去工作的任何地方我都可以接受的事情。

Chana Joffe-Walt Tana worked a lot of different jobs and got a lot of education-- college, graduate school, which did not open a path to a graduate school job, but a job at a Whole Foods.

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特·塔纳做过很多不同的工作，接受过很多教育——大学、研究生院，这并没有为研究生院工作开辟道路，而是在全食超市工作。

That's when her roommate told her she knew an editor of a political news website.

就在那时，她的室友告诉她，她认识一个政治新闻网站的编辑。

Would Tana be interested?

塔娜有兴趣吗？

I can't even imagine a world in which I would go from working at Whole Foods to working in journalism.

我什至无法想象我会从全食超市工作转到新闻工作的世界。

And she was like, well, just have an interview with this guy.

她说，好吧，去采访一下这个人吧。

On her way out the door to meet Don, her roommate said, if you get that job, you'll definitely be sexually harassed.

在出门见唐的路上，她的室友说，如果你得到那份工作，你肯定会受到性骚扰。

I just kind of thought, well, that's just the way it is.

我只是想，好吧，事情就是这样。

The Interview went well, which felt great to Tana, because she was used to bombing interviews.

采访进行得很顺利，这对塔娜来说感觉很好，因为她已经习惯了轰炸采访。

She was so shy.

她很害羞。

It was raining when she and Don walked out of the building.

当她和唐走出大楼时，天正下着雨。

He offered her a ride.

他邀请她搭车。

She said no, I'll take the train.

她说不用了，我还是坐火车吧。

He said no, no, I'll give you a ride.

他说不不不，我送你一程。

I'll give you a ride.

我送你一程。

And he kind of insisted on it.

他有点坚持这样做。

And I remember I got in his car, and I-- and this is so silly, and he even made fun of me about this years later, where I said, I really want the job, I would even do it for free until I prove myself that I can do it.

我记得我上了他的车，我——这太傻了，几年后他甚至取笑我，我说，我真的很想要这份工作，我什至会免费做它，直到我证明自己能做到。

In hindsight, I want to slap my dumb 25-year-old self.

事后看来，我真想给25岁的愚蠢自己一巴掌。

Fortunately, I didn't have the opportunity to screw myself over that way.

幸运的是，我没有机会这样把自己搞砸了。

Because Don brushed that idea off as ridiculous.

因为唐认为这个想法很荒谬。

In the interview, Don suggested Tana might start editing a section at AlterNet they recently created about sex.

在采访中，唐建议塔纳可以开始在 AlterNet 上编辑他们最近创建的有关性的部分。

So it didn't seem totally out of nowhere that, toward the end of the ride, he has sort of like casually put his hand on my knee, and said something like, so I hear you and your roommates have pretty wild and crazy sex lives.

所以，在旅程即将结束时，他有点像随意地把手放在我的膝盖上，说了一些类似的话，所以我听说你和你的室友的性生活非常狂野和疯狂，这似乎并不是完全凭空而来。

I think I said something like, oh, haha, yeah.

我想我说了类似的话，哦，哈哈，是的。

Life's pretty crazy, or something like that.

生活很疯狂，或者类似的事情。

I just-- on some level, I very passively did nothing.

我只是——在某种程度上，我非常被动地什么也没做。

And did you feel bad, neutral, just like, whatever?

你是否感觉很糟糕，中立，就像什么？

It felt bad.

感觉很糟糕。

But also, I was ecstatic, because I felt like I had a real shot at the job.

而且，我也很欣喜若狂，因为我觉得我真正有机会胜任这份工作。

She called her friend to thank her.

她打电话给她的朋友表示感谢。

She said, as you warned me, he got a little sexually harrassy, but I'm so excited.

她说，正如你警告我的那样，他有点性骚扰，但我很兴奋。

I think I got it.

我想我明白了。

She did.

她做到了。

And from the beginning, Tana understood that her attractiveness to Don meant she'd be seen rather than ignored.

从一开始，塔娜就明白，她对唐的吸引力意味着她会被看到，而不是被忽视。

Tana was seen by Don all the time.

塔娜一直被唐看到。

He'd take pictures of her sometimes when she wasn't looking, and send them to her.

有时他会趁她不注意的时候给她拍照片并发送给她。

He was generous with his attention, and controlling, usually at the same time.

他通常同时表现出慷慨的关注和控制力。

There is no way to tease the two apart, and she accepted them both.

没有办法将两者分开，她就接受了。

He appreciated her legs, which he told her.

他告诉她，他很欣赏她的腿。

He did not seem to love her personality.

他似乎并不喜欢她的性格。

So I remember once we were at lunch, he was like Tana, what do you have to say?

所以我记得有一次我们吃午饭时，他就像塔纳一样，你有什么要说的吗？

You can't even talk.

你甚至不能说话。

And I was really sick, so I kind of, like, coughed a little bit because I had the flu or something.

我真的病了，所以我有点咳嗽，因为我得了流感什么的。

And I remember he-- in front of everyone-- fake coughed.

我记得他在所有人面前假装咳嗽。

He was like,

他就像，

[FAKE COUGHING] All you do is ever cough.

[假咳嗽] 你所做的就是咳嗽。

That's all you ever do.

这就是你所做的一切。

Is that the only thing you can ever even say?

这是你唯一能说的话吗？

At a party, Don rubbed Tana's shoulders and asked if she wanted another drink.

在一次聚会上，唐揉着塔娜的肩膀，问她是否还想再喝一杯。

When she said no, he grabbed Tana's wrist, twisted her arm, and pushed her into a table.

当她拒绝时，他抓住塔娜的手腕，扭动她的手臂，把她推到桌子上。

He had to be physically separated from her.

他必须与她身体分离。

He apologized later, and she forgave him easily.

后来他道歉了，她也轻易地原谅了他。

Don was old to her, pervy, but again, sort of pathetic.

唐对她来说很老，很邪恶，但又有点可怜。

It felt inappropriate to read him as anything else.

将他视为其他任何人感觉不合适。

I remember there was one woman in the office who started freaking out and crying because Don told her that the color of her shirt looked nice on her.

我记得办公室里有一位女士开始惊慌失措并哭泣，因为唐告诉她她衬衫的颜色穿在她身上很好看。

And my reaction was like, all right, everyone, everyone's being hysterical here.

我的反应是，好吧，每个人，每个人都在歇斯底里。

It's a nice colored shirt, chill the fuck out, was my inner thought.

这是一件漂亮的彩色衬衫，他妈的冷静点，这是我内心的想法。

There was another woman who was really funny, actually, when she found the porn printed out in the printer, she-- you know, we were all giggling about it, because we all knew who it was.

还有另一个女人真的很有趣，事实上，当她发现打印机打印出的色情片时，她——你知道，我们都为此咯咯笑，因为我们都知道那是谁。

It was so obvious.

太明显了。

And she sent this hilarious email to all of editorial that was something to the effect of, whoever decided to print out porn in the office, please abstain from--

她向所有社论人员发送了这封搞笑的电子邮件，其大意是，无论谁决定在办公室打印色情内容，请放弃——

It was Don, obviously.

显然是唐。

Chana Joffe-Walt One of Tana's coworkers, another young woman, quit because of Don's bullying.

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 塔纳的一位同事，另一位年轻女性，因唐的欺凌而辞职。

It's like survival of the fittest, like, I can handle the bullying and the sexual harassment.

就像适者生存一样，我可以应对欺凌和性骚扰。

She couldn't.

她不能。

Tana was the cool girl who could take it.

塔娜（Tana）是一个可以承受的酷女孩。

She was comfortable in that role.

她对这个角色感到很舒服。

It gave her more power professionally to have the attention of the most powerful person in the office, even if it meant accepting the attention that was not professional, like when Don kept telling her he wanted to buy her a black cocktail dress he thought would look great on her body.

吸引办公室里最有权势的人的注意给了她更多的专业权力，即使这意味着接受非专业的关注，就像唐一直告诉她他想给她买一件他认为穿在她身上很漂亮的黑色鸡尾酒会礼服时。

So I just thought it was really kind of sad, or bittersweet, or semi-pathetic.

所以我只是觉得这真的有点悲伤，或者苦乐参半，或者半可悲。

He thought I needed for him to buy me this dress, when I could have just bought it myself.

他认为我需要他给我买这件衣服，而我本来可以自己买。

And midway through that indignant thought, Tana felt guilty.

在这个愤怒的想法中，塔娜感到内疚。

Don wanted to be generous, to be a wealthy, charming man who could give her beautiful things.

唐想要变得慷慨，成为一个富有、有魅力的男人，可以给她美好的东西。

This was not the way she saw him, which made her feel bad for him.

这不是她看待他的方式，这让她为他感到难过。

And then I actually did end up buying it.

然后我真的最终买了它。

And you know, this is where I wonder, was I not clear enough about setting boundaries.

你知道，这就是我想知道的地方，是不是我对于设定界限还不够清楚。

So I bought the dress.

所以我买了这件衣服。

I told him, oh yeah, guess what, I bought this dress, because I have $90.

我告诉他，哦，是的，你猜怎么着，我买了这件衣服，因为我有 90 美元。

Don seemed pleased.

唐看上去很高兴。

But then she didn't like the dress.

但后来她不喜欢这件衣服。

She didn't like the way it fit her, which she told him.

她告诉他，她不喜欢它适合她的方式。

And he was like, oh, give it to me.

他说，哦，把它给我吧。

I'm going to give it to my girlfriend.

我要把它送给我女朋友。

It will look better on her, because due to years of yoga, she has curves and muscles that are in separate places than you do.

她穿起来会更好看，因为由于多年的瑜伽练习，她的曲线和肌肉与你的位置不同。

When you say, this is where I feel, like, confused about, what is it that you feel confused about?

当你说，这就是我感到困惑的地方，你感到困惑的是什么？

If I didn't set clear enough boundaries to more clearly communicate that this exchange made me uncomfortable.

如果我没有设定足够清晰的界限来更清晰地沟通，那么这种交流会让我感到不舒服。

That's what you're supposed to do.

这就是你应该做的。

You know, you say, no.

你知道，你说，不。

That first time Don drove her home and put his hand on her knee, Tana did not say, no. Instead, she entered into an unspoken agreement between a cool girl and a flirty boss.

唐第一次开车送她回家并将手放在她的膝盖上时，塔纳没有说“不”。相反，她在一个酷女孩和一个轻浮的老板之间达成了一个无声的协议。

He'd look after her career, and he'd flirt with her while he was doing it.

他会照顾她的事业，并在照顾她的同时与她调情。

The rules were clear to Tana.

塔娜很清楚规则。

You don't say no. Saying no would destroy the agreement from which both parties have something to gain.

你不说不。拒绝会破坏双方都能从中获益的协议。

You don't ask, why do you want to buy me this dress?

你不会问，你为什么要给我买这件衣服？

You don't say, please don't rub my back, or please stop taking pictures of me.

你不会说，请不要揉我的背，或者请停止给我拍照。

You don't reply when he says by email what he wants for his birthday is sex with a mysterious blonde woman, and then adds, or you could just put on a wig.

当他通过电子邮件说他想要在生日那天与一位神秘的金发女郎发生性关系时，你不会回复，然后补充道，或者你可以戴上假发。

When Don asked Tana to his New York apartment for meetings, she followed the agreement.

当唐邀请塔娜到他纽约的公寓开会时，她遵守了协议。

She said nothing.

她什么也没说。

There was no office in New York, so it was easy to pretend this was appropriate.

纽约没有办公室，所以很容易假装这是合适的。

One night, they met.

一天晚上，他们相遇了。

They talked about work, and then Don wanted to keep hanging out.

他们谈论了工作，然后唐想继续出去玩。

It was getting kind of late, and we we're drinking, and he was like, hold on, just one second.

时间已经很晚了，我们正在喝酒，他说，等一下，等一下。

I'm like, oh, my God, what's he going to come out with?

我想，天哪，他会带来什么？

He comes back out-- runs back out to the table --with a paper bag filled with photographs.

他回来了——跑回到桌子旁——带着一个装满照片的纸袋。

And he says, you know, these are photos from my past.

他说，你知道，这些是我过去的照片。

So he starts, like, showing me all of these old photographs from the '70s and '80s, and they're basically almost exclusively of very conventionally beautiful blond women.

所以他开始向我展示所有这些 70 年代和 80 年代的老照片，它们基本上都是非常传统的美丽金发女性。

So he was like, like this was my ex-girlfriend at this point, this was my ex-girlfriend at this point.

所以他就像，这就是我的前女友，这是我的前女友。

I was like, all right, cool, a lot of blondes.

我当时想，好吧，很酷，有很多金发女郎。

Like, I don't know why are you showing me this stuff.

就像，我不知道你为什么给我看这些东西。

And then he, like, gets a photo, and then he says, and this is an artistic photograph of my penis.

然后他拍了一张照片，然后他说，这是我阴茎的艺术照片。

And he hands me this photo, and it's like, a black and white photograph of an erect penis.

他递给我这张照片，它就像一张勃起阴茎的黑白照片。

And he just did it so casually.

而他就是这么随意地做的。

I just kind of look at it, and hand it back to him.

我只是看看它，然后把它还给他。

I'm like, my God, did my boss just show me a picture of his dick?

我想，天哪，我的老板刚刚给我看了一张他的鸡巴的照片吗？

And I was like, yeah.

我当时想，是的。

Yeah, he did.

是的，他做到了。

This did seem like a violation of the agreement.

这看起来确实违反了协议。

I mean, it was an artistic picture.

我的意思是，这是一幅艺术画。

It was black and white.

它是黑白的。

It was from the '70s.

那是 70 年代的事。

I mean, I definitely didn't say, hey, you know what I'd love to see right now?

我的意思是，我绝对没有说，嘿，你知道我现在想看到什么吗？

A picture of your erect penis from the '70s.

一张 70 年代勃起阴茎的照片。

Like, it was definitely not the most appropriate thing to do to a female subordinate, right?

这么说来，对一个女下属来说，这绝对不是最合适的吧？

That's seems very true.

这似乎是真的。

Are you still doubting if that was appropriate or not?

您还在怀疑这样做是否合适吗？

It was obviously inappropriate.

这显然是不合适的。

I definitely didn't enjoy the experience.

我绝对不喜欢这次经历。

I told a million people about it contemporaneously like, hey guys, guess who's dick I just saw against my will right now.

我同时告诉了一百万人这件事，就像，嘿伙计们，猜猜我现在违背自己的意愿看到了谁是混蛋。

But also, we were in his apartment, it was late at night, and we were drinking.

而且，我们在他的公寓里，当时已经是深夜了，我们正在喝酒。

It just seems like a 60-something-year-old man who's in charge of, you know, 25 different people should just kind of know that you don't show a young female subordinate a picture of your penis even if it is from the '70s, even if it is late at night, and even if she doesn't say, hey, this is wrong.

看起来就像一个 60 多岁的男人，负责 25 个不同的人，应该知道你不会向年轻女下属展示你阴茎的照片，即使是 70 年代的照片，即使是在深夜，即使她没有说，嘿，这是错误的。

There are certain standards of behavior that seem like they should be obvious to everyone.

有一些行为标准似乎对每个人来说都是显而易见的。

But it seemed like they were not obvious to Don.

但对唐来说，这些似乎并不明显。

Don seemed to think it was appropriate to show her that picture.

唐似乎认为向她展示那张照片是合适的。

So Tana thought, maybe there was no unspoken agreement between them.

塔娜想，也许他们之间并没有什么不言而喻的约定。

Maybe the agreement, and the boundaries of that agreement, were something Tana imagined on her own.

也许这份协议，以及协议的界限，是塔娜自己想象出来的。

In the beginning, as a new employee with no experience, Tana's power was her attractiveness to Don.

一开始，作为一个没有经验的新员工，塔娜的力量在于她对唐的吸引力。

She had tried to use that to her advantage.

她曾试图利用这一点为自己谋利。

It was the same power that Onnesha did not want to use when she asked Don for a raise, the power of The Hypnotizer.

当奥内莎向唐加薪时，她不想使用同样的力量，即催眠师的力量。

Tana engaged, Onnesha did not.

塔娜订婚了，奥内莎没有订婚。

It cost them both in different ways.

他们都以不同的方式付出了代价。

New people came in to AlterNet, and Tana trained a lot of them.

新人加入 AlterNet，Tana 培训了很多人。

Many of them were young women, and one of them came to Tana and said, we've got to do something about Don's behavior.

他们中的许多人都是年轻女性，其中一位来找塔纳说，我们必须对唐的行为采取一些措施。

And I said, are you kidding?

我说，你在开玩笑吗？

You're not going to change anything.

你不会改变任何事情。

I don't think it's a good idea.

我认为这不是一个好主意。

I can't do this.

我不能这样做。

Tana felt for this woman, but she did not understand her, and why she thought anyone would care about this.

塔娜同情这个女人，但她不明白她，也不明白为什么她认为有人会关心这件事。

She said, this isn't news that this happens.

她说，发生这种事并不是新闻。

It was like, yeah, dude, what do you expect?

就像，是的，伙计，你期待什么？

Yeah, you were your parents in the car that day.

是的，那天车里的你就是你的父母。

Right.

正确的。

Chana Joffe-Walt The young woman was Kristen, the NYU student who Don spotted at the protest, Terminator-like, while Deanna watched.

查娜·乔菲-沃尔特 这位年轻女子是克里斯汀，唐在抗议活动中发现的纽约大学学生，她的样子像终结者，而迪安娜在一旁观看。

Now, Kristen was full of urgency, and she was ready to fight.

现在，克里斯汀充满了紧迫感，她做好了战斗的准备。

Act Six: Kristen Chana Joffe-Walt Act 6, "Kristen."

第六幕：克里斯汀·查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 第六幕，“克里斯汀”。

Kristen was 13 and she got a note.

克里斯汀 13 岁，她收到了一张纸条。

Well, she never actually saw the note, even though it was apparently written to her.

好吧，她从未真正看到过这张纸条，尽管它显然是写给她的。

It was intercepted by a teacher.

被老师拦截了。

But she knew what it said, because everyone in school knew.

但她知道上面写的是什么，因为学校里的每个人都知道。

It was from the boys lacrosse team.

这是男子长曲棍球队的。

Dear Kristen, you have nice boobs.

亲爱的克里斯汀，你的胸部很好。

You should use them.

你应该使用它们。

Kristen remembers how absurd it seemed, and laughing with her friends at the note, and the boys.

克里斯汀记得这看起来多么荒谬，她和她的朋友们以及男孩们一起大笑。

(MOCKING TONE) Use your boobs.

（嘲笑的语气）用你的胸部。

We were, like, joking about it.

我们就像开玩笑一样。

Better put them to use.

更好地利用它们。

The boys lacrosse team needs them.

男子长曲棍球队需要他们。

Like, ooh, what do they want to do with them?

就像，哦，他们想用它们做什么？

Like, how could-- boys, how could you use my boobs on the lacrosse team?

就像，孩子们，你们怎么能在长曲棍球队中使用我的胸部？

It was just stupid.

这太愚蠢了。

One of the boys who signed the note was Kristen's boyfriend, but the two never talked about it, because they never talked, because they we're in seventh grade, and that's what it meant to be boyfriend and girlfriend.

在纸条上签名的男孩之一是克里斯汀的男朋友，但是两人从来没有谈论过这件事，因为他们从来没有说过话，因为我们在七年级，这就是男朋友和女朋友的意义。

The guidance counselor came for Kristen in the middle of class.

课间，辅导员来找克里斯汀。

They walked to her office, and she asked Kristen what she thought of the note.

他们走到她的办公室，她问克里斯汀她对这张纸条的看法。

And I was like, I don't know, I think they're just like being stupid boys.

我当时想，我不知道，我认为他们就像是愚蠢的男孩。

And she was like, you're a victim of sexual harassment.

她说，你是性骚扰的受害者。

And I just remember being like, feeling really weird that she said that to me, because it sounded so serious.

我只记得她对我这么说时感觉很奇怪，因为听起来很严肃。

And I just, like-- just like, can we just let it go?

我只是，就像——就像，我们可以放手吗？

You know, one of these guys is your boyfriend.

你知道，这些人之一就是你的男朋友。

What does he think, that this is cute?

他觉得怎么样，这很可爱吗？

And I was like, I don't know.

我当时想，我不知道。

I don't even know him.

我什至不认识他。

Like, he's an idiot.

就像，他是个白痴。

Like, he's not going to be my boyfriend anymore.

就像，他不再是我的男朋友了。

And then I thought she was angry with me, because I wasn't freaking out about this letter.

然后我以为她生我的气，因为我并没有因为这封信而感到害怕。

But that's how I felt.

但这就是我的感受。

You were not performing victim of sexual harassment correctly.

你没有正确扮演性骚扰受害者。

Yeah, I was just performing like child in a room.

是的，我只是在房间里像个孩子一样表演。

I'm 12, and you're an adult talking about my body, and boys, and it's so uncomfortable.

我 12 岁了，你们是一个成年人，谈论我的身体，还有男孩们，这太不舒服了。

I remember, I even zipped my hoodie up real, real tight, all the way to the top, because I thought that she would make a comment about my boobs showing or something.

我记得，我什至把连帽衫的拉链拉得非常非常紧，一直拉到顶部，因为我认为她会对我的胸部展示或其他什么发表评论。

It's not like Kristen couldn't imagine some girl being upset by that note.

克里斯汀并不是无法想象某个女孩会因为这张纸条而感到不安。

She could.

她可以。

And she could imagine some girl might enjoy that note.

她可以想象某个女孩可能会喜欢这张纸条。

But she was the girl.

但她就是那个女孩。

She owned the boobs they we're talking about, that everyone was now talking about.

她拥有我们正在谈论的胸部，现在每个人都在谈论。

And then there was a thing in the auditorium, and this girl who I didn't know at all sat down next to me and was like, I heard about the note.

然后礼堂里发生了一件事情，这个我根本不认识的女孩坐在我旁边，就像是，我听说了这张纸条。

Are you OK?

你还好吗？

And all of that kind of shit was just making me so uncomfortable.

所有这些事情都让我感到非常不舒服。

I was just like, yeah, I'm fine.

我当时就想，是的，我很好。

I didn't care.

我不在乎。

What I remember caring about was the guidance counselor for not just letting it be a stupid kid thing, and making it into like an attempted rape or something.

我记得我关心的是辅导员，他不仅让它成为一个愚蠢的孩子的事情，而且把它变成了强奸未遂之类的东西。

Is that how it felt?

是这样的感觉吗？

Kristen It just felt like they wanted me to cry, and act like it was the worst thing that ever happened to me, and I was so violated.

克里斯汀 感觉他们想让我哭，表现得好像这是我经历过的最糟糕的事情，我被侵犯了。

When Kristen was raped a few years later, it took her a while to use that word.

几年后，当克里斯汀被强奸时，她花了一段时间才使用这个词。

He took advantage of me is what Kristen said at first.

克里斯汀一开始是这么说的，他利用了我。

When that didn't feel right, she said, he's an asshole.

当感觉不对时，她说，他是个混蛋。

But that didn't seem right either.

但这似乎也不正确。

She had no word to summarize the experience.

她没有用言语来总结这次经历。

Something that I didn't like that was wrong, but it wasn't what I imagined rape would be like, and it wasn't as scary as I thought that it would be.

我不喜欢的事情是错误的，但这不是我想象的强奸的样子，也没有我想象的那么可怕。

She was at her friend's house for a party.

她在朋友家参加一个聚会。

It was late.

已经很晚了。

People were going to sleep, and she climbed up to the top of a bunk bed to get away from an older guy who was creeping her out.

人们都要去睡觉了，她爬到双层床的顶部，以摆脱一个让她感到害怕的年长男人。

Kristen was drunk.

克里斯汀喝醉了。

She remembers her face felt numb.

她记得她的脸感到麻木。

She remembers hearing someone banging on the door, which you later found out he had locked before he climbed up into the bunk bed and took her clothes off.

她记得听到有人敲门，后来你发现他已经锁上了门，然后他爬上双层床，脱掉了她的衣服。

She said no, but he had sex with her anyway.

她说不，但他还是和她发生了性关系。

Sex-- that didn't feel like the right word, either.

性——这个词感觉也不太合适。

Kristen noticed her friends doing the same thing, describing their experiences with boys in different tones, in different arrangements.

克里斯汀注意到她的朋友们也在做同样的事情，用不同的语气、不同的安排描述他们与男孩的经历。

And then there was the friend who wouldn't say anything at all about what happened, except she was upset and didn't want to talk about it.

还有一位朋友，她对所发生的事情根本不肯说什么，只是她很沮丧，不想谈论这件事。

And eventually she did explain.

最终她确实做出了解释。

He said, can I just put it in you for a second?

他说，我可以把它放在你身上一会儿吗？

Her friend said, no. He did anyway.

她的朋友说，不。不管怎样，他还是这么做了。

That's when Kristen said she felt like she had an understanding to share.

就在那时，克里斯汀说她觉得自己有一种理解可以分享。

All those times when we were mad at those boys because of what they did to us.

那些时候，我们因为那些男孩对我们所做的事而对他们感到愤怒。

We were mad because they raped us, you know.

我们很生气，因为他们强奸了我们，你知道。

And there was like, several of my friends where it took us a really long time to put the word to it.

我的几个朋友花了很长时间才说出这句话。

When she added them up, all their experiences, Kristen felt like boys we're aiming their behavior so it would come in just under the line of something that had a name.

当她把他们所有的经历加起来时，克里斯汀觉得我们就像男孩一样，我们正在瞄准他们的行为，这样它们就会出现在有名字的东西的下面。

Like they were playing a game to see what they can get away with, that's what I kind of realized from it, the way that a guy is going to screw you over most likely isn't going to be he's going to rape you in an alley.

就像他们在玩游戏，看看他们能逃脱什么惩罚一样，这就是我从中意识到的，一个人搞砸你的方式很可能不会是他会在小巷里强奸你。

It's going to be something that people might doubt.

这将是人们可能会怀疑的事情。

And it's not going to look like the worst examples of things or the most clear cut.

而且它看起来不会是最糟糕的例子，也不会是最清晰的例子。

And it's intentional, and that's why it's scary.

这是故意的，这就是为什么它很可怕。

Like, they toe the-- actually, I think maybe they don't believe that what they did was wrong, because it doesn't look like what they consider rape.

就像，他们听从——实际上，我想也许他们不相信自己所做的事情是错误的，因为这看起来不像他们认为的强奸。

Rape.

强奸。

The word was congruent with the way she felt about it.

这个词与她的感受是一致的。

That, she decided, was what mattered.

她认为这才是最重要的。

And I think maybe after that, I was just ready.

我想也许在那之后，我就准备好了。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I wasn't waiting anymore to call something what it was.

我不再等待称呼某件事是什么了。

Chana Joffe-Walt Four years later, Kristen met Don at a protest, graduated from college, and accepted a job at AlterNet.

查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 四年后，克里斯汀在一次抗议活动中遇见了唐，大学毕业，并接受了 AlterNet 的工作。

She was 21, AlterNet's youngest employee.

她当时 21 岁，是 AlterNet 最年轻的员工。

Don loved to tell the story of how they met, how he'd found her on the sidewalk.

唐喜欢讲述他们如何相遇的故事，以及他如何在人行道上找到她的故事。

He liked very much that he had discovered me.

他非常高兴他发现了我。

I definitely got the sense that he liked feeling like he was doing me this huge favor, and like I was his protege or something.

我确实感觉到他喜欢感觉他在帮我这个大忙，就像我是他的门生什么的。

And then it evolved from, oh, I found her on the sidewalk like it was this cute thing, to like, don't you dare publish anywhere else.

然后它从“哦，我在人行道上发现她，就像这是一个可爱的东西”演变为“你敢在其他地方发表吗”。

And the amount of control that I realized he had over me was concerning, early.

我很早就意识到他对我的控制程度令人担忧。

When Don invited her to meet at his apartment, Kristen did not think, as Tana had, well, there's no New York office, so that makes a certain amount of sense.

当唐邀请她在他的公寓见面时，克里斯汀并不像塔娜那样认为纽约没有办事处，所以这在一定程度上是有道理的。

Kristen thought, I know what this is.

克里斯汀想，我知道这是什么。

I know why he wants me here.

我知道他为什么要我来这里。

I know why he's ordering sushi, and offering me weed, and repeatedly asking me if I like his music.

我知道他为什么要点寿司，给我大麻，并反复问我是否喜欢他的音乐。

And he wanted me, too.

他也想要我。

He liked that I was young, and he thought I was, like, cool.

他喜欢我年轻，他认为我很酷。

He was hanging out with this young person who was having a good time with him.

他正在和这个和他玩得很开心的年轻人一起出去玩。

And I think a lot of the shameless way he would look at or talk about my body was a way for him to kind of force me to see him as a sexual being.

我认为他看待或谈论我身体的许多无耻方式是他强迫我将他视为性存在的一种方式。

Like, I'm not a 60-something-year-old man with no sexuality.

比如说，我不是一个没有性欲的60多岁的男人。

And if you think so, I'm going to prove to you that I'm not by forcing you to realize that I do have sexual thoughts and urges, and also, they're about you.

如果你这么认为，我将向你证明我不会强迫你意识到我确实有性想法和冲动，而且它们是关于你的。

A friend said to me recently, relating a different incident, she said, forcing someone to be part of your boner against their will is just a smarter way of forcing someone.

一位朋友最近对我说，她提到了另一件事，她说，违背某人的意愿强迫某人成为你的傻瓜的一部分只是强迫某人的一种更聪明的方式。

I thought about Kristen when she said that, how alert Kristen was to a violation that was not definitively over the line.

当克里斯汀这么说时，我想起了她，克里斯汀对于尚未明确越界的违规行为是多么警惕。

Kristen found it alarming how laid back Don was, how he behaved as if their interactions were completely normal.

克里斯汀发现唐的悠闲态度令人震惊，他的举止就好像他们的互动完全正常一样。

Like one day, she was supposed to meet with him in a coffee shop, Don, and some other colleagues.

就像有一天，她应该在一家咖啡店与他、唐和其他一些同事见面。

When Kristen walked in, Don was already there.

当克里斯汀走进去时，唐已经在那里了。

I think I had pretty much just sat down.

我想我刚刚坐下来。

And he was like on his computer, you know, just real casual, like, oh, I saw someone on the internet.

他就像在他的电脑上一样，你知道，非常随意，就像，哦，我在互联网上看到了某人。

She looked just like you.

她看起来就像你一样。

Let me show you.

让我告诉你。

And he's like, taking his time, pulling up this picture, and I'm like, oh, God, what is he going to show me?

他慢慢地拿出这张照片，我就想，哦，上帝，他要给我看什么？

And he pulls up just a picture of a completely naked woman, like a porn star or something, with like, fake breasts and blond hair.

他只拿出一张完全裸体的女人的照片，就像色情明星之类的，有假乳房和金发。

And I was like, I can't even imagine what the look on my face must've been like.

我当时想，我什至无法想象我脸上的表情。

My response was, she looks nothing like me.

我的回答是，她看起来一点也不像我。

Kristen stood up, said, I'm going to go have a cigarette.

克里斯汀站起来，说，我去抽根烟。

And I was like oh, yeah, cool.

我当时想，哦，是的，太酷了。

So this-- you see, every blond chick in the porn you watch reminds you of me.

所以这个——你看，你看的色情片中的每一个金发小妞都会让你想起我。

Great.

伟大的。

This behavior had a name-- sexual harassment.

这种行为有一个名字——性骚扰。

Kristen did not doubt it.

克里斯汀对此并不怀疑。

I always knew it was wrong.

我一直都知道这是错误的。

It wasn't like I ever thought, is this normal?

和我想象的不一样，这正常吗？

Like, I knew, no, this is not normal, and it's bad.

就像，我知道，不，这不正常，而且很糟糕。

But having a name for this behavior didn't solve anything for Kristen.

但为这种行为命名并没有为克里斯汀解决任何问题。

It just made her angry, because it seemed like there was nothing she could do about it.

这让她很生气，因为她似乎对此无能为力。

She had no previous experience, no connections in the industry, and she needed the job.

她以前没有任何经验，也没有这个行业的人脉，但她需要这份工作。

I used to always-- I don't even know if I should say this --I used to like to talk about fantasies of kidnapping him, and torturing him, and forcing him to transfer money into my bank account.

我曾经总是——我什至不知道我是否应该这么说——我曾经喜欢谈论绑架他、折磨他、强迫他把钱转入我的银行账户的幻想。

But you know, I would just always joke about the things I would do to that man that would just make him feel uncomfortable and terrified.

但你知道，我总是开玩笑说我会对那个男人做那些只会让他感到不舒服和害怕的事情。

That's what I wanted to do more than anything.

这就是我最想做的事情。

Kristen's revenge fantasy is very similar to the plot of the movie 9 to 5, which Kristen has never seen, because it came out in 1980, before she was born.

克里斯汀的复仇幻想与电影《朝九晚五》的情节非常相似，克里斯汀从未看过这部电影，因为这部电影上映于1980年，当时她还没有出生。

All of which is to say this is an old story.

所有这些都表明这是一个古老的故事。

Kristen's anger bled.

克里斯汀的怒火在流血。

It bed into her thoughts, her work.

它融入了她的思想和工作。

She remembers being at a conference and interviewing an older man, a guy in his 70s, about drug policy.

她记得在一次会议上就毒品政策采访了一位 70 多岁的老人。

And at the end, I said I was going to smoke a cigarette, and he said, you don't want to get cancer in those boobs, do you?

最后，我说我要抽烟，他说，你不想让那些胸部得癌症，是吗？

And I was just like, ew, and just got up and went outside and smoked a cigarette, and told all the people at the conference, can you believe that this dinosaur man just said that to me?

我当时就想，呃，然后站起来走到外面抽烟，然后告诉会议上的所有人，你能相信这个恐龙人刚刚对我说了这些吗？

And it was the same thing I felt with Don, like it was this older man who was just kind of like, I'm going to force the fact that I have a sexuality on you.

这和我对唐的感受是一样的，就像这个年长的男人有点像，我要强迫你接受我对你有性取向的事实。

I'm going to force you to reckon with it by making you the object of my sexual desire.

我将通过让你成为我的性欲对象来迫使你正视这一点。

Later that day, Kristen was walking with her AlterNet colleague, Jan Frel.

那天晚些时候，克里斯汀和她的 AlterNet 同事扬·弗雷尔 (Jan Frel) 一起散步。

Not Don, Jan.

不是唐，简。

Jan was, at various points, Don's second-in-command.

简曾多次担任唐的第二把手。

And we were walking down the sidewalk, and he was on the left of me, and traffic was on the other side of him, and I told him what happened, and he said, oh, well, you must have taken it as a compliment, kind of, though, right?

我们沿着人行道走，他在我的左边，交通在他的另一边，我告诉他发生了什么事，他说，哦，好吧，你一定认为这是一种恭维，不过，对吧？

Or something like that.

或者类似的东西。

And I just had this image of pushing him into the street that was so vivid, it almost freaked me out.

我脑海中浮现出他被推到街上的画面，画面如此生动，几乎把我吓坏了。

I was like, I came very close to maybe killing this person.

我当时想，我差点就杀了这个人。

But that's how full of rage I was by that point.

但这就是我当时充满愤怒的程度。

I was just about to explode.

我当时简直要爆炸了。

Jan does remember Kristen telling him about this, but does not recall responding in this way.

简确实记得克里斯汀告诉过他这件事，但不记得以这种方式回应。

Kristen started talking.

克里斯汀开始说话。

She told a female coworker named Lauren about how Don was treating her.

她告诉一位名叫劳伦的女同事唐是如何对待她的。

Lauren was a bit older, seemed together, but she didn't know what to do.

劳伦年纪大了一些，看起来很团结，但她不知道该怎么办。

She did have one idea of someone who could help, a woman Lauren actually had just met at a book party, a woman in her 30s who had worked with Don in the past.

她确实想到了一个可以提供帮助的人，劳伦实际上刚刚在一次读书聚会上认识的一位女士，一位 30 多岁的女士，她过去曾与唐一起工作过。

Her name was Deanna.

她的名字叫迪安娜。

Lauren asked to talk to Deanna, Deanna remembers.

迪安娜记得，劳伦要求与迪安娜交谈。

She started telling me about the experiences this new staffer was having with him, this young woman.

她开始向我讲述这位新员工与他这位年轻女士的经历。

Deanna hadn't been with Don for years at this point.

此时迪安娜已经多年没有和唐在一起了。

Lauren didn't know they'd ever been together.

劳伦不知道他们曾经在一起过。

But Lauren told Deanna, part of what's so hard about this is the new staffer is so young and inexperienced.

但劳伦告诉迪安娜，这件事之所以如此困难，部分原因在于新员工太年轻、缺乏经验。

Don met her when she was a student on the street at a protest.

当她还是一名学生时，唐在街上的一次抗议活动中认识了她。

And I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me.

我当时想，你他妈的一定是在开玩笑。

I was fucking there.

我他妈的就在那儿。

I should have taken her by the wrist, pulled her away with me, and said, do not.

我应该抓住她的手腕，把她拉到我身边，然后说，不要。

I will find you another job, you know.

我会给你找另一份工作，你知道的。

And I felt such guilt over that.

我对此感到非常内疚。

Deanna began cycling through the moments, all the choices she had made, that she thought were just hers, choices she assumed would only affect her and her relationship with Don.

迪安娜开始循环回顾那些时刻，她所做的所有选择，她认为这些选择只是她自己的，她认为这些选择只会影响她以及她与唐的关系。

She thought specifically about a call she got years ago, just two months after she'd broken up with Don.

她特别想起几年前接到的一通电话，就在她和唐分手两个月后。

It was a professional contact who said she wanted to ask Deanna about something serious.

一位专业联系人说她想询问迪安娜一些严肃的事情。

And then the woman on the phone said that her organization had put on an event with AlterNet, and a young staffer had just complained that Don sexually harassed her.

然后电话里的那位女士说，她的组织已经与 AlterNet 合作举办了一场活动，一名年轻员工刚刚抱怨唐对她进行了性骚扰。

The woman on the phone said to Deanna, you've worked with Don.

电话里的女人对迪安娜说，你和唐一起工作过。

Does that sound like him?

听起来像他吗？

Deanna paused to consider it before answering.

迪安娜思考了一下才回答。

I have a lot of shame, but my greatest shame was-- I can't picture him doing something unwanted, was what I said.

我有很多耻辱，但我最大的耻辱是——我无法想象他会做一些不受欢迎的事情，我是这么说的。

And so I kind of-- I defended him.

所以我有点——我为他辩护。

I didn't kind of defend him.

我没有为他辩护。

Like, I didn't say, I believe this person.

就像，我没有说，我相信这个人。

But was true for you at the time that you couldn't imagine him doing that?

但当时的你确实无法想象他会这么做吗？

(DRAGGING THE WORD OUT INTO A GROAN) No. Yeah, but I-- there was a tiny part of me that wondered if that could be true, and I just didn't want to deal with it, and nothing was ever done.

（拖拖拉拉地呻吟着）不。是的，但是我——我内心有一小部分想知道这是否是真的，我只是不想处理它，而且什么也没做。

It never went further.

它从未走得更远。

Deanna and Kristen went out for drinks.

迪安娜和克里斯汀出去喝酒。

Deanna listened, Kristen talked.

迪安娜听着，克里斯汀说话。

Deanna said she wanted to help in whatever way she could, and Deanna prayed that Kristen would not ask her, what happened to you?

迪安娜说她想尽其所能提供帮助，迪安娜祈祷克里斯汀不要问她，你怎么了？

Everything felt like it would blow up.

一切都感觉要爆炸了。

Everyone would know that I was complicit, that I helped him.

每个人都会知道我是同谋，我帮助了他。

How could people want to be friends with me after that?

以后人们怎么会愿意和我做朋友呢？

How could people trust my professional expertise after knowing that about me?

人们在了解我的专业知识后怎么能相信我的专业知识呢？

How could-- what would my mom think?

怎么可能——我妈妈会怎么想？

They're all going to think I'm a fraud, that I'm not talented, that I'm not-- that these ideas aren't my own or something, and I would just have to shrink away.

他们都会认为我是个骗子，我没有才华，我不是——这些想法不是我自己的什么的，我只能退缩。

Deanna helped connect Kristen with a lawyer.

迪安娜帮助克里斯汀联系了一位律师。

The lawyer told Kristin it would be very hard to win a lawsuit and keep her job.

律师告诉克里斯汀，要赢得诉讼并保住工作是非常困难的。

She also said she'd probably need more evidence.

她还说她可能需要更多证据。

And that's when Kristen thought to ask Tana.

就在那时，克里斯汀想问问塔娜。

She knew Don had been harassing her, too.

她知道唐也一直在骚扰她。

Kristen doesn't remember Tana saying, this isn't news that this happens.

克里斯汀不记得塔娜说过，发生这种事并不是新闻。

She remembers Tana being kind, and saying she didn't want to betray Don.

她记得塔娜很友善，并说她不想背叛唐。

He'd given her a chance and a career when no one else would have.

他给了她一个机会和一份事业，而其他人都没有。

So she said she didn't want to do it, and then what did you do?

所以她说她不想做，那你怎么办？

Chana Joffe-Walt Kristen's apartment flooded, and she got a payout from her landlord.

查娜·乔菲-沃尔特·克里斯汀 (Chana Joffe-Walt Kristen) 的公寓被洪水淹没，她从房东那里得到了赔偿。

When the money came in, she quit AlterNet without ever using the words she believed to be true.

当钱到账后，她退出了 AlterNet，但从未使用过她认为是真实的话。

When I left, I didn't say to him, I'm leaving because you sexually harassed me, and I hate you.

我走的时候，我没有对他说，我要走是因为你性骚扰我，我恨你。

I was too affected by the idea that he was giving you a chance.

他给你机会的想法让我太感动了。

And it's true, he did give us a chance that no one else did.

确实，他确实给了我们一个其他人没有给过的机会。

So I mean-- but I guess I felt like I had paid my dues, and the payoff was no longer fair.

所以我的意思是——但我想我觉得我已经付出了代价，但回报不再公平。

Act 7, "Vivian." Four years after Tana told Kristen that their experience was not news to anyone, suddenly it was news.

第七幕，“薇薇安”。塔娜告诉克里斯汀他们的经历对任何人来说都不是什么新闻四年后，突然间这成了新闻。

A reporter named Cora Lewis at BuzzFeed News reported a story about sexual harassment allegations at AlterNet.

BuzzFeed News 的一位名叫科拉·刘易斯 (Cora Lewis) 的记者报道了有关 AlterNet 性骚扰指控的故事。

She talked to Kristen and Tana and Deanna, and she talked to other women who haven't heard from here.

她与克里斯汀、塔娜和迪安娜进行了交谈，还与其他没有收到消息的女性进行了交谈。

Don denied most of the allegations in the BuzzFeed story.

唐否认了 BuzzFeed 报道中的大部分指控。

Some he said were mischaracterized.

他说有些被错误描述了。

For instance, he does not remember twisting Tana's arm, but did say he was rubbing her shoulders and stopped when he saw it made her uncomfortable.

例如，他不记得扭过塔娜的手臂，但确实说过他在揉她的肩膀，当他看到这让她不舒服时就停下来了。

He does not remember showing Tana a photograph of his penis, but says he does have such a photograph, and some women may have seen it.

他不记得给塔娜看过他阴茎的照片，但他说他确实有这样的照片，有些女性可能看过它。

He said he also took friendly photos in the office, and when he commented on Tana's body, it was out of concern that she was getting too skinny.

他说他还在办公室拍了友好的照片，当他评论塔娜的身体时，是担心她太瘦了。

The photo he showed Kristen, he said, was not a naked porn star, but a clothed movie star.

他说，他给克里斯汀看的照片不是裸体的色情明星，而是穿着衣服的电影明星。

When I contacted Don, he said he told Deanna about his relationship with Vivian, his partner, on their very first date, and that his memory of their time at Big Sur is different from hers.

当我联系唐时，他说他在第一次约会时就向迪安娜讲述了他与伴侣维维安的关系，并且他对他们在大苏尔的时光的记忆与她的不同。

Beyond that, he did not respond to specific questions, but asked that I include an apology from him, in which he says, along the way, I strove but apparently failed to treat everyone with the respect and consideration they deserved.

除此之外，他没有回答具体问题，但要求我附上他的道歉，他在其中说，一路走来，我努力但显然未能给予每个人应有的尊重和考虑。

I regret causing harm, and I'm reckoning with it.

我对造成伤害感到遗憾，并且正在考虑这一点。

Some of the accusations against me are untrue, but I deeply regret those that are.

有些针对我的指控并不真实，但我对那些指控深感遗憾。

I apologize to anyone I offended and treated badly.

我向所有被我冒犯和粗暴对待的人道歉。

Before the BuzzFeed News story came out, Vivian says Don told her he needed to talk to her about something, to prepare her.

在 BuzzFeed 新闻报道发表之前，维维安说唐告诉她他需要和她谈谈一些事情，让她做好准备。

Vivian told me she knew what it was, Me Too stories coming for Don.

维维安告诉我她知道这是什么，《我也是》的故事即将发生在唐身上。

She'd pictured how their conversation would go.

她已经想象过他们的谈话会如何进行。

When Don sat her down, it was not what she'd imagined.

当唐让她坐下时，事情并不是她想象的那样。

He told her, 10 years ago he'd had an affair with Deanna.

他告诉她，10年前他与迪安娜有染。

You didn't-- he hadn't told you about it before.

你没有——他以前没有告诉过你这件事。

He hadn't told-- no, this is all-- I am assimilating all of this in the past month.

他没有告诉——不，仅此而已——我在过去的一个月里正在吸收这一切。

Wow.

哇。

Vivian Yeah.

维维安 是的。

I went crazy.

我疯了。

I mean, I just sort of screamed, you have no idea what you've done.

我的意思是，我只是尖叫，你不知道你做了什么。

Immediately, you did?

立刻，你做到了吗？

Vivian Oh God, yes.

维维安 天哪，是的。

She wanted to understand why he did this.

她想明白他为什么这么做。

She tried to remember what was happening in his life around that time, and there was a lot.

她试图回忆那段时间他生活中发生的事情，结果有很多。

Moving his elderly parents, trying to take responsibility for a sister who was ill and suffering a psychotic break, his own health issues.

搬迁他年迈的父母，试图对生病并遭受精神崩溃的妹妹负责，以及他自己的健康问题。

Vivian is a therapist, and from Don, Vivian solicited details, assembled details, as a therapist does.

薇薇安是一名治疗师，薇薇安从唐那里征求细节，收集细节，就像治疗师所做的那样。

For myself.

为了我自己。

I mean, this was not playing therapist for him.

我的意思是，这不是为他扮演治疗师。

This was just like, I have got to make sense of this somehow.

就像，我必须以某种方式理解这一点。

I've got to.

我必须这么做。

I'm still working on that.

我仍在努力。

Don't get me wrong.

别误会我的意思。

He's got to, too.

他也必须这样做。

It's what I do.

这就是我所做的。

Its who I am.

这就是我。

It feels like the only way to be a person with a history that feels coherent.

这感觉像是成为一个拥有连贯历史的人的唯一途径。

A person with a history that feels coherent with him?

一个有着与他感觉一致的历史的人？

Like, your history with him?

比如，你和他的历史？

Yes, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

It's so hard to integrate.

整合起来太难了

I'm 99.9 certain we will make it through this.

我 99.9 确信我们会渡过难关。

Don had just destroyed the story Vivian had about their relationship, a coherent history that for Vivian had included a wonderful partner with whom she shared a joyful life, shared trips and friends and intellectual interests, a partner who took loving care of her last year when Vivian was in chemotherapy for breast cancer.

唐刚刚毁掉了薇薇安关于他们关系的故事，对薇薇安来说，一段连贯的历史包括一个美好的伴侣，她与她一起分享快乐的生活，共同的旅行、朋友和智力兴趣，去年当薇薇安因乳腺癌接受化疗时，一个给予她关爱的伴侣。

To stay with him and to make her history coherent, Vivian is trying to figure out what she needs to know, and how to resist asking about the things she does not need to know.

为了留在他身边并让她的历史变得连贯，薇薇安试图弄清楚她需要知道什么，以及如何拒绝询问她不需要知道的事情。

I want to know about stupid things like, did they share the music that we love?

我想知道一些愚蠢的事情，比如他们分享了我们喜欢的音乐吗？

You know, things like that, things that have always felt very special and intimate.

你知道，诸如此类的事情，总是让人感觉非常特别和亲密的事情。

I want to know what was shared that's always felt exclusive.

我想知道分享的内容总是让人感觉独一无二。

We were watching a movie the other night, and one character was holding another in a certain way.

那天晚上我们正在看一部电影，一个角色以某种方式抱着另一个角色。

And I just broke down, and just said, did you hold her that way?

我崩溃了，只是说，你就是这样抱着她的吗？

He said, no, when I saw that, I just thought, that's you and me.

他说，不，当我看到那个的时候，我只是想，那就是你和我。

And I believe him.

我相信他。

Four days before Christmas, Don's story was added to the news of allegations about sexual harassment and violence that suddenly have a public platform in this stunning period of time that is right now.

圣诞节前四天，唐的故事被添加到有关性骚扰和暴力的指控新闻中，在现在这个令人震惊的时期，这些指控突然有了一个公共平台。

Don's story came after the one about Harvey Weinstein, and Mario Batali, and Louis CK, and Senator Al Franken, Matt Lauer, and Charlie Rose, and Russell Simmons, and Dustin Hoffman, and Kevin Spacey, editors at the New Republic, DC Comics, the Paris Review, the head of NPR News, the owner of an NFL team, and the choreographer of a ballet.

唐的故事是在哈维·韦恩斯坦、马里奥·巴塔利、路易斯·CK、参议员艾尔·弗兰肯、马特·劳尔、查理·罗斯、拉塞尔·西蒙斯、达斯汀·霍夫曼和凯文·史派西的故事之后发生的，他们是《新共和》、DC漫画、《巴黎评论》的编辑、NPR新闻的负责人、一支NFL球队的老板和一部芭蕾舞剧的编舞。

After Don's story came Congressman Patrick Meehan, Michael Douglas, Rob Porter and the sentencing of Larry Nassar.

在唐的故事之后，国会议员帕特里克·米汉、迈克尔·道格拉斯、罗布·波特和拉里·纳萨尔的量刑被公布。

The board that oversees AlterNet said they were investigating the allegations in detail.

监管 AlterNet 的董事会表示，他们正在详细调查这些指控。

That investigation did not include reaching out to any of the women named in this story or in the BuzzFeed article.

该调查不包括联系本文或 BuzzFeed 文章中提到的任何女性。

I don't know how you can understand what happened without speaking to the people who are saying, something happened to me.

我不知道如果不跟那些说“我发生了什么事”的人说话，你怎么能理解发生了什么事。

Today's show was produced by Susan Burton and Robyn Semien.

今天的节目由苏珊·伯顿和罗宾·塞米恩制作。

The people who put our show together include Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Emily Condon, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Alvin Melathe, Robyn Semien, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.

制作我们节目的人员包括 Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Emily Condon、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Alvin Melathe、Robyn Semien、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。

Our senior producer is Brian Reed, our managing editor is Susan Burton, editing help today from Julie Snyder, special thanks today to Nava EtShalom, Rebecca Vitale-Decola, Merrill Garbus, Cora Lewis, Rebecca Traister, Lauren Kelley, Rebecca Carroll, Sarah Jaffe, Adele Stein, Heather Geller, Lynn Parramore, Joshua Holland, Liliana Segura, and Myra Smith.

我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德，我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿，今天得到了朱莉·斯奈德的编辑帮助，今天特别感谢纳瓦·埃特沙洛姆、丽贝卡·维塔莱-德科拉、梅里尔·加布斯、科拉·刘易斯、丽贝卡·特雷斯特、劳伦·凯利、丽贝卡·卡罗尔、莎拉·贾菲、阿黛尔·斯坦、希瑟·盖勒、林恩·帕拉莫尔、约书亚·霍兰德、莉莉安娜·塞古拉和迈拉·史密斯。

And special thanks to Heidi Baker and Heidi Schreck, who wrote an episode of the TV show I Love Dick that inspired today's show.

特别感谢 Heidi Baker 和 Heidi Schreck，他们为电视节目《我爱迪克》编写了一集，为今天的节目提供了灵感。

The episode is called "A Short History of Weird Girls." It is great.

这一集被称为“奇怪女孩的简史”。太棒了。

It features four women who, one by one, tell the history of their sexual lives.

它讲述了四位女性一一讲述她们性生活的历史。

Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org.

我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to my boss Ira Glass.

一如既往地感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。

He swears he does not have a problem with a woman taking over the show for an hour.

他发誓他对一个女人接管这个节目一个小时没有任何意见。

This is the thing he told me over and over this week, doesn't bother him at all.

这是他这周一遍又一遍告诉我的事情，但他一点也不介意。

He kept insisting, I am the most feminist man you know, and you know it.

他一直坚持说，我是你认识的最女权主义的男人，你也知道这一点。

I'm Chana Joffe-Walt.

我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特。

Ira Glass will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.

艾拉·格拉斯将于下周回归，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。