637: Words You Can't Say - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #637 | February 2, 2018 637: Words You Can't Say Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 637 集 | 2018 年 2 月 2 日 637：你不能说的话 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass So Parker, let's talk about our disagreement about the Jews.
序言： 序言 Ira Glass 所以帕克，让我们谈谈我们对犹太人的分歧。
It's not a disagreement about Jewish people, Ira.
艾拉，这不是关于犹太人的分歧。
Listen to how you said that.
听听你是怎么说的。
Parker What did I say?
帕克我说什么了？
I said Jewish people.
我说的是犹太人。
You mean the Jews?
你是说犹太人吗？
Parker Jewish people.
帕克犹太人。
The Jews.
犹太人。
Parker Jewish people.
帕克犹太人。
I mean, I get the irony of me telling you it's Jewish people, but it's Jewish people.
我的意思是，我告诉你这是犹太人，但这是犹太人，这很讽刺。
That's Parker, one of my coworkers here at This American Life, and our disagreement about the Jews/Jewish people started a couple of months ago here at our radio show.
那是帕克，我在《美国生活》的同事之一，我们关于犹太人/犹太人的分歧是几个月前在我们的广播节目中开始的。
A bunch of us, including Parker, were going through a script together.
我们一群人，包括帕克，正在一起审阅一个剧本。
It was about white nationalists, and the script had a sentence where the reporter used the word Jews.
这是关于白人民族主义者的，剧本中有一个句子，记者使用了犹太人这个词。
The reporter is not a Jew.
记者不是犹太人。
Parker and another young staffer both literally gasped.
帕克和另一名年轻员工都倒吸一口冷气。
Well, yeah, because the term, Jew, depending on the person, can be viewed as a slur.
嗯，是的，因为“犹太人”这个词，根据不同的人，可以被视为一种诽谤。
And can I just say, I didn't get the memo on this one.
我只能说，我没有收到这方面的备忘录。
When did you hear it?
你什么时候听到的？
Parker I think, all my life.
帕克，我想，我一生都是如此。
I don't know how I missed out on this one.
我不知道我是怎么错过这个的。
As a Jew-- excuse me.
作为一个犹太人——对不起。
As one of the Jewish people, you'd think I would be the first to know.
作为犹太人之一，你可能会认为我会是第一个知道的人。
I don't find the word "Jew" offensive.
我不认为“犹太人”这个词具有冒犯性。
Apparently, though, I am out of step on this one.
但显然，我在这件事上步调不一致。
Noted.
著名的。
There were, in this case, no dire consequences.
在这种情况下，没有造成可怕的后果。
Nobody's feelings were hurt.
没有人的感情受到伤害。
Nobody felt judged.
没有人感到受到评判。
That's not how the story usually goes.
故事通常不是这样发展的。
And today, on our program, we have the more typical thing.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们看到了更典型的事情。
We have two stories where people used the wrong word, and there are big consequences.
我们有两个故事，人们使用了错误的词，并产生了严重的后果。
Big, angry, judgy, divisive fights.
激烈的、愤怒的、挑剔的、分裂的争斗。
And what's interesting in both of these stories is that these fights are among people who basically agree about most things-- who basically are allies.
这两个故事的有趣之处在于，这些战斗是在大多数事情上基本达成共识的人之间进行的——他们基本上是盟友。
They want the same things, but then, somebody uses a word, and it's like, boom!
他们想要同样的东西，但是，有人用了一个词，就像，繁荣！
I'm on this side.
我在这一边。
You're on that side.
你在那边。
We are not on the same side.
我们不在同一边。
It's war, and we just get there so fast these days.
这是战争，而我们这些天来得太快了。
This happens so often.
这种情况经常发生。
The first half of our show today is about words that have to do with sex.
我们今天节目的前半部分是关于与性有关的词语。
The second half is words that have to do with guns.
后半部分是与枪有关的词。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, Video Killed the Video Star.
第一幕，视频杀死了视频明星。
Laci Green is a YouTube star in her 20s.
Laci Green 是一位 20 多岁的 YouTube 明星。
Because of that, people take shots at her.
正因为如此，人们对她开枪。
No surprise.
毫不奇怪。
Perhaps you've heard how the internet works.
也许您听说过互联网的工作原理。
What is surprising is how over time, the kinds of people taking shots at her changed until she was under fire from the last people she expected, because they objected to certain words that she was saying.
令人惊讶的是，随着时间的推移，向她开枪的人发生了变化，直到她受到了她最意想不到的人的攻击，因为他们反对她所说的某些话。
Before we start this story, I want to pile up the warnings here, OK?
在我们开始这个故事之前，我想先把警告放在这里，好吗？
This is a story about offensive language, so it is just chock-full of potentially offensive words.
这是一个关于冒犯性语言的故事，因此充满了潜在的冒犯性词语。
If you're not into that, don't listen to the story.
如果你不感兴趣，就不要听这个故事。
This story not only acknowledges the existence of sex, it specifies some of the body parts involved-- probably not right for little kids.
这个故事不仅承认性的存在，还具体说明了所涉及的一些身体部位——可能不适合小孩子。
We have un-beeped the story here on the podcast.
我们已经在播客上取消了这个故事。
If you prefer the beeped version, there's one at our website.
如果您喜欢蜂鸣声版本，我们的网站上有一个。
Our reporter is Kelefa Sanneh.
我们的记者是 Kelefa Sanneh。
So, if you want to be a YouTube celebrity, it helps to have a niche.
因此，如果您想成为 YouTube 名人，拥有一个利基市场会有所帮助。
Here's Laci Green's niche.
这是 Laci Green 的利基市场。
Well hi, babes.
嗨，宝贝们。
Let's talk about losing your virginity.
我们来谈谈失去童贞的事。
The first thing you need to know about losing your virginity-- the foreskin is a highly elastic piece of skin that covers the head of the penis, and it's amazing.
关于失去童贞，你需要了解的第一件事——包皮是覆盖阴茎头的一块高度弹性的皮肤，它是令人惊奇的。
Aha!
啊哈！
You've come to the right place.
您来对地方了。
I'm kind of a vibrator connoisseur.
我是一个振动器鉴赏家。
When do I not want to talk about boobs?
我什么时候不想谈论胸部？
Boobs are great.
胸部很棒。
Everyone loves them.
每个人都爱他们。
I think if there's one thing that could bring world peace, it's probably boobs.
我想如果有一件事可以带来世界和平，那可能就是胸部了。
You can tell she loves this stuff.
你可以看出她喜欢这些东西。
She gets animated when she talks about sex and relationships and genitalia.
当她谈论性、人际关系和生殖器时，她会变得活跃起来。
It feels like her face was designed for YouTube-- very expressive features, and she includes footnotes on screen, like each video is a cheerful, little seminar.
感觉她的脸是为 YouTube 设计的——非常富有表现力，而且她在屏幕上添加了脚注，就像每个视频都是一个令人愉快的小型研讨会。
My producer, Zoe Chace, and I called her to talk about her first big hit.
我的制片人佐伊·切斯和我打电话给她，谈论她的第一部热门歌曲。
Yeah, the first sex ed video that I made that went viral was called You Can't Pop Your Cherry, and it was about the hymen.
是的，我制作的第一个疯传的性教育视频叫做《你不能戳破你的樱桃》，它是关于处女膜的。
The hymen doesn't completely cover the vagina at all.
处女膜根本没有完全覆盖阴道。
It doesn't need to be popped.
不需要弹出它。
It doesn't need to be broken.
它不需要被打破。
The hymen is a very thin--
处女膜很薄——
And it was about basic anatomy-- what the hymen is, and also a little bit of cultural analysis about the hymen myth and some of the sexism that drives it.
这是关于基本解剖学——什么是处女膜，还有一些关于处女膜神话和驱动它的性别歧视的一些文化分析。
The hymen myth?
处女膜神话？
Laci Green Yeah, that you have to break your hymen when you first have penetrative sex.
Laci Green 是的，当你第一次进行插入式性行为时，你必须打破你的处女膜。
So, let's talk for a second about this misconception that the hymen covers the whole vagina and needs to be broken.
那么，让我们谈谈这种错误观念，即处女膜覆盖了整个阴道，需要被打破。
Not only is it outright false-- wrong!
这不仅是完全错误的——而且是错误的！
It's also kind of violent.
这也有点暴力。
Ah!
啊!
Big, bad penis needs to come in and pop your hymen and make you bleed and--
又大又坏的阴茎需要进来，戳破你的处女膜，让你流血，然后——
Laci talks about sex like an enthusiastic nerd-- excited, totally unembarrassed.
拉奇像一个热情的书呆子一样谈论性——兴奋，完全不尴尬。
She started getting hundreds of thousands of views-- millions of views.
她开始获得数十万次观看——数百万次观看。
The videos brought in steady money and opportunities.
这些视频带来了稳定的金钱和机会。
She went on Dr. Phil.
她继续找菲尔博士。
She was the host of MTV's first YouTube series-- it was called Braless.
她是 MTV 首个 YouTube 系列节目《Braless》的主持人。
All of this-- this whole sex ed career-- was basically an outgrowth of her childhood, or really a reaction to it.
所有这一切——整个性教育生涯——基本上都是她童年的产物，或者说是对童年的反应。
She grew up in a small town near Sacramento, raised within the Mormon church, which she found stifling.
她在萨克拉门托附近的一个小镇长大，在摩门教教堂长大，她觉得那里令人窒息。
This is relevant because the Mormon church is strictly anti-masturbation, which absolutely did not stop me from doing it.
这是相关的，因为摩门教严格禁止手淫，这绝对没有阻止我这样做。
It just made me feel really bad when I did.
当我这样做时，这让我感觉非常糟糕。
In my early teens, I was overcome with shame and guilt and anger-- anger at myself.
在我十几岁的时候，我被羞耻、内疚和愤怒所征服——对自己的愤怒。
Which brings us to the first word that got Laci in trouble.
这让我们看到了让拉奇陷入麻烦的第一个词。
It isn't the kind of word you bleep in a radio story.
这不是你在广播故事中发出的那种词。
Yeah, I made this video called, 50 Reasons Why I'm a Feminist.
是的，我制作了这个视频，名为“我是女权主义者的 50 个理由”。
That's kind of when the storm began, I would say.
我想说，那是风暴开始的时候。
Feminist.
女权主义者。
She said it on purpose, and she knew it would provoke a reaction online, not just from people who watch her videos, but from people who can't stand feminism-- people who go searching for feminist videos to criticize.
她是故意这么说的，她知道这会在网上引起反应，不仅是观看她视频的人，还有那些无法忍受女权主义的人——那些去搜索女权主义视频进行批评的人。
She knew she was about to get sucked into an endless cycle of reactions and counter-reactions.
她知道自己即将陷入反应和反反应的无休止的循环中。
And I waited a long time-- actually, sat on that video.
我等了很长时间——实际上，我坐在那个视频上。
I recorded the video and didn't upload it for nearly six months.
我录制了该视频，但将近六个月没有上传。
I just sat on it and waited, until I felt ready to post it.
我只是坐在上面等待，直到我准备好发布它。
And I never do that.
我从来不这样做。
That's not a common thing for me.
这对我来说并不常见。
I just was a little bit scared of what was about to happen.
我只是有点害怕即将发生的事情。
The rumors are true-- what they've been saying about me.
谣言是真的——他们对我的评价是真的。
I have to come clean.
我必须坦白说出来。
I, Laci Green, am a feminist.
我，拉奇·格林，是一名女权主义者。
What?
什么？
You're a lesbian now?
你现在是女同性恋了？
Man hater?
讨厌男人？
Hairy armpits?
腋下长毛？
Say it ain't so!
说不是这样的！
It covered the basics.
它涵盖了基础知识。
Women are always judged on their appearance.
女人总是根据她们的外表来评判。
Girls are called sluts, while boys are called players.
女孩子被称为荡妇，男孩子则被称为玩家。
But still, the people who loved this video-- they really loved it.
但仍然，喜欢这个视频的人们——他们真的很喜欢它。
The women's website, Bustle, said that it was, quote, "awesomely on point," and HuffPost wrote, "Laci Green reminds us why we all need to be feminists." But there was also a torrent of abusive messages-- messages that still show up at Laci's inbox every day, telling her that someone's going to kill her or that she should do it herself.
女性网站 Bustle 表示，这“非常切题”，《赫芬顿邮报》写道，“拉奇·格林提醒我们为什么我们都需要成为女权主义者。”但也有大量辱骂性信息——每天仍然出现在拉奇的收件箱中，告诉她有人要杀她或者她应该自己动手。
It was immediate-- just this immediate reaction.
这是立即的——就是这样立即的反应。
It started getting tons of response videos from all over the internet, blog posts, tweets.
它开始从互联网上、博客文章、推文中收到大量的回应视频。
My Twitter timeline became a nightmare of people calling me names and calling me a feminazi and all this stuff.
我的 Twitter 时间线变成了一场噩梦，人们辱骂我，称我为女权主义者等等。
And all these people who were making these reply videos-- collectively, they had a pretty big audience.
所有这些制作这些回复视频的人——总的来说，他们拥有相当多的观众。
They would send their audience to my channel.
他们会将观众发送到我的频道。
Laci's video was supposed to empower young women, but it also did a pretty good job empowering guys who like to criticize young women-- guys who proudly call themselves anti-feminists.
拉奇的视频本应赋予年轻女性权力，但它也很好地赋予了那些喜欢批评年轻女性的男人——那些自豪地称自己为反女权主义者的男人的权力。
The whole point of being an anti-feminist is to mock and criticize feminism, which means that the anti-feminists on YouTube need to find feminists to mock and criticize.
成为反女权主义者的全部意义就是嘲笑和批评女权主义，这意味着 YouTube 上的反女权主义者需要找到女权主义者来嘲笑和批评。
I haven't actually watched this video yet, but I know by the title, it's going to be fucking great.
我还没有真正看过这个视频，但从标题我知道它会非常棒。
Here's Why I'm a Feminist, by Laci Green.
这就是为什么我是女权主义者，作者：Laci Green。
The rumors are true.
谣言是真的。
Kelefa Sanneh Anti-feminists can mean lots of different things.
Kelefa Sanneh 反女权主义者可以有很多不同的含义。
It might refer to someone who obsessively harasses and insults women on the internet, or it might refer to someone who likes to crack jokes about the perceived excesses of feminist discourse.
它可能指的是在互联网上痴迷地骚扰和侮辱女性的人，也可能指的是喜欢对女权主义话语中被认为是过度的行为开玩笑的人。
And on the internet, of course, it's not always easy to draw a bright line between harmless jokes and pernicious harassment.
当然，在互联网上，要在无害的笑话和有害的骚扰之间划清界限并不总是那么容易。
This guy, for instance, Sargon of Akkad.
这个人，例如阿卡德的萨尔贡。
Back to the yucks.
回到那些令人讨厌的事情。
Kelefa Sanneh He's mainly known for acerbic videos about how liberals are irrational, but he did once tweet, "I wouldn't even rape you," at a female politician he disagreed with.
Kelefa Sanneh 他主要以关于自由主义者如何非理性的尖刻视频而闻名，但他曾经在推特上对一位他不同意的女性政客说“我什至不会强奸你”。
He made a video where he mocked Laci's video, and it got nearly a million views.
他制作了一段嘲笑 Laci 视频的视频，观看次数接近百万。
I think that feminism is both kick ass and super important, and here are a few of my reasons why.
我认为女权主义既强大又非常重要，以下是我的一些原因。
Because feminist supremacy would make you a primary beneficiary of all the benefits it would bring to a privileged class?
因为女权主义至上会让你成为它给特权阶级带来的所有好处的主要受益者？
Oh, I'm sure that's not it, Laci.
哦，我确信不是这样的，拉奇。
I'm sure it's not.
我确信不是。
Here's another video by a guy named Chris Ray Gun.
这是一个名叫 Chris Ray Gun 的人制作的另一个视频。
He used Laci's picture to illustrate a satirical song.
他用拉奇的照片来诠释一首讽刺歌曲。
(SINGING) Women infantilized every day.
（唱）女人每天都像婴儿一样。
But not by the men who the feminists blame, but instead by the motto that constantly claims.
但不是女权主义者指责的男人，而是不断宣称的座右铭。
The patriarchy is raging.
父权制正在肆虐。
Around the same time, Laci started taking a lot of heat from a different group-- the people who were supposed to be on her side.
大约在同一时间，拉西开始受到另一个群体的强烈批评——那些人本应站在她一边。
The people at the heart of her fan base-- college kids.
她的粉丝群的核心人物是大学生。
She still remembers the moment when she first came face to face with it.
她还记得第一次面对它的那一刻。
She'd been touring colleges as a speaker.
她曾作为演讲者在各大学巡回演讲。
Lots of students knew her from YouTube, so they'd show up to hear her talk about healthy relationships, and they would submit anonymous questions that they were too embarrassed to ask anyone else.
很多学生都是通过 YouTube 认识她的，所以他们会来听她谈论健康的人际关系，并且会提交匿名问题，但他们不好意思问其他人。
So, this was four years ago-- 2014.
那么，这是四年前——2014 年。
Laci doesn't even want to mention the college's name.
拉奇甚至不想提及学院的名字。
And I walk in, and there's a bunch of students there.
我走进去，看到那里有一群学生。
And some of the students are clapping and saying, yay, but there's a ton of boos in the audience.
一些学生鼓掌说，是的，但观众席上充满了嘘声。
And I've never had that happen before.
我以前从未发生过这种情况。
She was confused.
她很困惑。
She didn't know why they were mad at her.
她不知道他们为什么生她的气。
I don't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
These are my peers.
这些是我的同龄人。
I'm not that much older than them.
我并不比他们大多少。
I mostly ignored it.
我基本上忽略了它。
I actually couldn't even-- when I was up there, I couldn't even really hear what they were saying.
事实上，当我在上面时，我什至听不清他们在说什么。
I just knew that they were shouting things while I was talking.
我只知道我说话时他们在大喊大叫。
It's like, what are you doing?
就像，你在做什么？
It's never happened to me before.
我以前从未发生过这种情况。
I've never had students just yell.
我从来没有遇到过学生只是大喊大叫。
How rude.
多么粗鲁啊。
She gave her talk, despite the push back.
尽管遭到反对，她还是发表了讲话。
But some of the things she said made it worse.
但她说的一些话让事情变得更糟。
Afterwards, the school newspaper described the scene.
随后，校报描述了当时的情景。
I'm looking at a picture of you in a plaid, flannel shirt, it looks like.
我正在看一张你穿着格子法兰绒衬衫的照片，看起来像。
They quote one of the students that was upset, and she says-- this is one of the students speaking, saying, "some of the things that she said," meaning you, "were very alienating to me, at least, and I think that one of them was that she used the homophobic slur, dyke, a couple of times, and not as a self-referential thing.
他们引用了一名心烦意乱的学生的话，她说——这是其中一名学生的发言，她说，“她所说的一些话，”意思是你，“至少对我来说非常疏远，我认为其中之一是她多次使用了恐同诽谤，堤坝，而不是作为自我指涉的事情。
Not as a self-identity, but as a way to describe a party she didn't like.
不是作为一种自我认同，而是作为描述她不喜欢的聚会的一种方式。
I think I know where she's"--
我想我知道她在哪里”——
And the student said, "I think that she doesn't mean to be homophobic, but that's still a slur, and I still associate it, at least, with homophobia and with violence." So it sounds like you had mentioned in your talk, dyke parties.
这位学生说：“我认为她并不是有意恐同，但这仍然是一种诽谤，至少我仍然将其与恐同和暴力联系在一起。”听起来你在演讲中提到了堤坝派对。
But the parties are called dyke parties.
但这些政党被称为堤坝政党。
Right.
正确的。
Laci Green That was definitely a thing that would happen in San Francisco and at Berkeley, where people would have dyke parties, where only women were invited, and it was just like a thing that happened.
Laci Green 这绝对是在旧金山和伯克利会发生的事情，那里的人们会举办堤岸派对，只邀请女性，而且这就像发生过的事情一样。
What do you want me to say?
你想让我说什么？
D-word party?
D字派对？
My problem is the way that she framed it as if I was calling people dykes or something.
我的问题是她的表达方式就好像我在称呼人们堤坝之类的东西一样。
And it's just the deliberate sort of twisting of what you say and what you do all the time, to make it seem like you're just this evil, deep down homophobe who's just-- you're revealing your evil nature when you use various words or whatever and taking things out of context all the time.
这只是故意扭曲你所说的和你所做的一切，让你看起来像是一个邪恶的、内心深处恐同的人，当你使用各种词语或其他什么东西并总是断章取义时，你就暴露了你的邪恶本性。
Dyke was the second word that got her in trouble.
戴克是第二个给她带来麻烦的词。
But that isn't even the reason they were upset with her from the moment she got there.
但这甚至不是从她到达那里的那一刻起他们就对她感到不安的原因。
That was probably because of the fallout from a third word she'd said, way back in 2009.
这可能是因为早在 2009 年她所说的第三句话就产生了影响。
I had this video way back in the day where I said the T-word.
早在我说“T”字的那天我就看过这个视频。
The T-word.
T字。
I'm not going to say it, either.
我也不打算说出来。
But it's spelled T-R-A-N-N-Y.
但它的拼写是 T-R-A-N-N-Y。
A word for transgender people, widely seen these days as derogatory.
变性人的一个词，如今被广泛视为贬义词。
So the short story is, I had made this fan video for Chris Crocker, who is a self-proclaimed T-word.
简而言之，我为克里斯·克罗克（Chris Crocker）制作了这个粉丝视频，他自称是一个 T 字。
I made a fan video saying I love him, blah, blah, blah.
我制作了一个粉丝视频说我爱他，等等，等等。
I used the T-word in the video, then later on, a bunch of social justice types dragged it up to prove that I am a evil transphobe.
我在视频中使用了“T”字，后来，一群社会正义人士把它拖了出来，以证明我是一个邪恶的跨性别者。
Chris Crocker.
克里斯·克罗克。
He's a YouTube personality who went viral back in 2007, when he made a video saying, "leave Britney alone!" Back in 2009, Laci made a video saying that she loved him, and she used the T-word.
他是一位 YouTube 名人，早在 2007 年就在网上疯传，当时他制作了一段视频，上面写着“别打扰布兰妮！”早在2009年，Laci就制作了一段视频表示她爱他，并且用了T字。
She thought it was OK because that's a word Chris had used about himself.
她认为这没什么问题，因为克里斯用这个词来形容自己。
When someone asked Laci about it in 2012, she apologized.
2012 年，当有人向 Laci 询问此事时，她道歉了。
She unpublished the video.
她取消发布了该视频。
She said she had learned how harmful the word was, but some people objected that she used the word again in her written apology.
她说她已经知道这个词有多有害，但一些人反对她在书面道歉中再次使用这个词。
And Laci says she was targeted and harassed by people who saw her as a symbol of transphobia.
拉奇说，她受到那些将她视为跨性别恐惧症象征的人的攻击和骚扰。
It was really, really, really horrible.
这真的、真的、真的太可怕了。
People came to my house.
人们来到我家。
They took pictures of my door.
他们给我的门拍了照片。
They took pictures of me while I was in public and sent it to me through my email.
他们在我在公共场合时给我拍了照片，并通过我的电子邮件发送给我。
It was nuts.
太疯狂了。
That was absolutely insane.
这绝对是疯了。
That's what kick-started the perception that Laci was transphobic and problematic, and that perception followed her to the stage of that college.
这就是人们开始认为拉西有跨性别恐惧症和有问题的看法，这种看法伴随着她进入了那所大学的舞台。
Laci was stumbling across all these words you can't say, and of course, the modern archetype for what's supposed to happen with these words is the N-word.
拉奇（Laci）偶然发现了所有这些你不能说的词，当然，这些词应该发生的现代原型是 N 词。
Lots of people feel like the N-word is so ugly, so damaging, so scary, that non-black people aren't allowed to say it, ever.
很多人觉得“N”这个词是如此丑陋、如此具有破坏性、如此可怕，以至于非黑人永远不被允许说出来。
It doesn't matter if they're quoting a song.
他们是否引用一首歌并不重要。
It doesn't matter if they're reading from an antebellum novel.
他们是否读的是战前小说并不重要。
It doesn't matter the context.
上下文并不重要。
They can't say it.
他们不能说。
Then the question is, how many other words are like the N-word?
那么问题来了，还有多少个类似N字的单词呢？
How many other words can't be said?
还有多少话不能说？
That was kind of when I started to notice the more social justice warrior side of things.
就在那时，我开始注意到事物中更多社会正义战士的一面。
OK, so just in case you haven't heard this one, social justice warrior-- an insult that can be thrown at anyone who speaks up against racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, all the other -isms and phobias.
好吧，以防万一你还没有听过这个，社会正义战士——这是对任何反对种族主义、性别歧视、跨性别恐惧症、同性恋恐惧症以及所有其他主义和恐惧症的人的侮辱。
Students felt like it was OK to be rude, to call names, to degrade and disrespect people because they weren't woke enough or something.
学生们觉得，因为自己醒得不够，或者其他什么原因，粗鲁、谩骂、侮辱和不尊重别人都是可以的。
This idea that the words themselves have more meaning than the context that they're in.
这种观点认为单词本身比它们所处的上下文更有意义。
There were other words she couldn't say-- words that were more fundamental to the kinds of videos she made.
还有其他一些词她不能说——这些词对她制作的视频来说更为基本。
People got mad when I would say male or female in a video to refer to anatomical stuff, like female orgasm or male sexuality or whatever.
当我在视频中用“男性”或“女性”来指代解剖学内容时，例如女性高潮或男性性行为或其他什么，人们会生气。
Yeah, people said, can you not say male or female?
是啊，人们说，你不能说男或女吗？
That's the thing.
就是这样。
She makes sex ed videos, so she talks all the time about genitals, about reproductive health, about sex.
她制作性教育视频，所以她一直谈论生殖器、生殖健康和性。
There's basically no way for her to avoid these words without making some pretty fundamental changes to the way she talks, like how do you talk about someone who's intersex?
如果不对她的说话方式做出一些根本性的改变，她基本上没有办法避免这些词，比如你如何谈论双性人？
Born with sex organs or traits that don't fit traditional definitions of female or male?
天生的性器官或特征不符合女性或男性的传统定义？
Yeah, I made a video about intersex conditions.
是的，我制作了一个关于双性人状况的视频。
And in the video, I talked about sex development in the womb and sex differentiation and how we become male and female, and they're somewhere in between.
在视频中，我谈到了子宫内的性发育和性别分化，以及我们如何成为男性和女性，以及它们介于两者之间。
And people didn't like that I used the terms male and female, but literally, how do you explain intersex without male or female?
人们不喜欢我使用男性和女性这两个术语，但从字面上看，如果没有男性或女性，你如何解释双性人？
I've thought about it so many times.
我已经想过很多次了。
I don't even know.
我什至不知道。
You have to use anatomical terms.
你必须使用解剖学术语。
And how do you talk about sex and anatomy without saying male and female?
如何在不说男性和女性的情况下谈论性别和解剖学？
Well, I start using the terms vagina-owner and penis-owner.
好吧，我开始使用术语“阴道所有者”和“阴茎所有者”。
I was trying to be creative.
我试图发挥创意。
I want to address the genitals.
我想谈谈生殖器。
If you have a penis, is it applicable?
如果您有阴茎，是否适用？
And that's kind of the route that I've taken since.
这就是我从那时起就采取的路线。
Did you get positive feedback when you started talking about penis-havers and vagina-havers, as opposed to males and females?
当您开始谈论拥有阴茎者和拥有阴道者（而不是男性和女性）时，您是否得到了积极的反馈？
No. I mean, yes.
不，我的意思是，是的。
But also no. Some people liked it.
但也没有。有些人喜欢它。
I'd say more people didn't like it.
我想说更多人不喜欢它。
They're like, why are you calling me a vagina-owner?
他们说，你为什么叫我阴道主人？
And I'm like, ugh.
我想，呃。
So, if this is new to you, and you're wondering why some people want to avoid the words male and female, the idea is this.
所以，如果这对你来说是新的，并且你想知道为什么有些人想要避免使用“男性”和“女性”这两个词，那么这个想法就是这样的。
When you call a penis a male sex organ, you're kind of implying that having a penis makes you a man, and that's not true for everyone.
当你称阴茎为男性性器官时，你是在暗示拥有阴茎就意味着你是一个男人，但并不是每个人都这样。
You're leaving out some transgender people, for instance.
例如，你遗漏了一些跨性别者。
None of this satisfied the growing number of people who thought Laci was totally problematic.
这些都不能满足越来越多的人的要求，他们认为拉奇是完全有问题的。
On Tumblr, someone put together a list.
在 Tumblr 上，有人整理了一份清单。
It was called "Masterpost-- Why Laci Green Sucks." It had 93 entries, accusing her of hypocrisy, ignorance, insensitivity.
它被称为“Masterpost——为什么 Laci Green 很糟糕”。它有93条条目，指责她虚伪、无知、麻木不仁。
It explained why her commentary had been hurtful, not just to trans people, but to women, people suffering from mental illness, Muslims, millennials, vegans of color.
这解释了为什么她的评论不仅伤害了跨性别者，还伤害了女性、患有精神疾病的人、穆斯林、千禧一代、有色人种的素食主义者。
When she first started making videos, it felt like freedom, and now it felt like the opposite.
当她第一次开始制作视频时，感觉像是自由，而现在感觉却相反。
It started to feel like being back in Mormonism.
感觉就像回到了摩门教。
You've got this sort of doctrine-- the social justice doctrine that you hold on to.
你有这样的信条——你所坚持的社会正义信条。
The intention is good-- to make us better people, to do better by each other, to become more moral.
我们的初衷是好的——让我们成为更好的人，让彼此做得更好，变得更有道德。
They're both moral systems, and they operate in similar ways.
它们都是道德体系，并且以相似的方式运作。
Using shaming when you get out of line.
当你越界时使用羞辱。
There's just sort of this feeling of repression on your chest, where you just can't speak freely or be freely in the world.
你的胸口有一种压抑的感觉，你无法自由地说话或自由地生活。
And it felt exactly the same to me, like I was policing my own thoughts and words.
我也有同样的感觉，就像我在控制自己的想法和言语。
I felt like a bad person all the time.
我一直觉得自己是个坏人。
After being mocked by the anti-feminists and then being assailed by the social justice crowd, she scaled up.
在遭到反女权主义者的嘲笑，然后受到社会正义人群的攻击后，她的规模扩大了。
She started attracting the hostility of a much bigger, louder group-- Trump supporters.
她开始引起一个更大、声音更大的群体——特朗普支持者的敌意。
Well, I tweeted that night of the election.
嗯，选举那天晚上我发了推文。
I said, "fuck white America," when Trump won.
当特朗普获胜时，我说，“去他妈的美国白人”。
The tweet went viral.
这条推文迅速走红。
Conservatives passed it around to make fun of liberals who were losing their mind over Trump.
保守派流传这句话是为了取笑那些因特朗普而失去理智的自由派。
Here's what her original tweet actually said.
这是她原来的推文的实际内容。
"We are now under total Republican rule.
“我们现在完全处于共和党的统治之下。
Textbook fascism.
教科书式的法西斯主义。
Fuck you, white America.
去你妈的，美国白人。
Fuck you, you racist, misogynist pieces of shit.
去你妈的，你们这些种族主义者、厌恶女性的狗屎。
Good night."
晚安。”
Oopsie.
哎呀。
Kelefa Sanneh And some people noticed that the day before, or on election day or the day before, you had tweeted, "regardless of the outcome, we are clearly a deeply divided and broken country.
Kelefa Sanneh 有些人注意到，在前一天，或者在选举日或前一天，你发推文说，“无论结果如何，我们显然是一个严重分裂和破碎的国家。
So much work ahead to mend, heal, and restore the U in USA."
修复、治愈和恢复美国大学的工作还有很多工作要做。”
And some people noticed that there had been a change in tone and thought that that was funny or revealing.
有些人注意到语气发生了变化，并认为这很有趣或具有启发性。
And one person actually wrote to you on Twitter, "Hey Laci, do you, like, not see how you're acting like the very thing you claim to be opposed to?" Do you remember who wrote that tweet?
事实上，有人在推特上给你写信说：“嘿，拉奇，你有没有看到你的行为就像你声称反对的那样？”你还记得那条推文是谁写的吗？
No. Kelefa Sanneh It was a guy who is known as Chris Ray Gun online.
不，Kelefa Sanneh 这是一个在网上被称为 Chris Ray Gun 的人。
I knew you were going to zing with that.
我知道你会对此感到兴奋。
I knew it was coming.
我知道它即将到来。
Chris Ray Gun-- an anti-feminist with a YouTube channel.
Chris Ray Gun——一位拥有 YouTube 频道的反女权主义者。
A guy who liked to make fun of people like Laci.
一个喜欢取笑拉奇这样的人的人。
A guy who liked to make fun of Laci herself.
一个喜欢取笑拉西本人的家伙。
Chris is the one who made up that song.
克里斯是这首歌的创作者。
Laci is giggling because Chris Ray Gun, the YouTubing anti-feminist, is now her boyfriend, which is a pretty wild twist in Laci Green's story, considering the trolling that she went through from him and from his friends.
拉奇咯咯地笑，因为 YouTube 反女权主义者克里斯·雷·冈 (Chris Ray Gun) 现在是她的男朋友，考虑到她受到了他和他的朋友们的攻击，这对拉奇·格林的故事来说是一个相当疯狂的转折。
And to explain it, we have to back up.
为了解释这一点，我们必须进行备份。
Laci had booked a series of talks on college campuses in the weeks after the election.
拉奇在大选后的几周内预定了在大学校园举行的一系列演讲。
As soon as I came out on stage, people started screaming, fuck you, cunt.
我一上台，人们就开始尖叫，操你，混蛋。
Fuck you, bitch.
去你妈的，贱人。
You lost.
你输了。
Trump, Trump Trump.
特朗普，特朗普，特朗普。
Started throwing pencils and paper and whatever crap had in their backpack at me.
开始向我扔铅笔和纸以及背包里的任何垃圾。
I was really scared.
我真的很害怕。
I was scared that one of these students was going to rush the stage and hurt me.
我害怕其中一名学生冲上讲台伤害我。
That's all I could think about.
这就是我所能想到的。
I can't do this.
我不能这样做。
My mind's not in this place.
我的心思不在这个地方。
It's not worth it.
这是不值得的。
Online, the vitriol against her and her feminist allies got 10 times worse after the election.
大选后，网上对她和她的女权主义盟友的尖刻批评变得更加严重了十倍。
And after a few months of that, Laci decided she'd had enough of everyone ranting at each other, especially ranting at her.
几个月后，拉西觉得她已经受够了每个人互相咆哮，尤其是对她的咆哮。
She'd try something different.
她会尝试一些不同的东西。
She'd reach out directly to one of the antagonists, Blaire White.
她会直接联系对手之一布莱尔·怀特。
Now, Blaire is a conservative who's also a trans woman, and she'd become an unlikely hero to anti-feminists.
现在，布莱尔是一名保守派，也是一名跨性别女性，她不太可能成为反女权主义者的英雄。
Blaire had been making nasty videos about one of Laci's friends, so Laci began a careful approach to Blaire.
布莱尔一直在制作关于拉奇的一位朋友的下流视频，因此拉奇开始小心翼翼地接近布莱尔。
First, she followed her on Twitter.
首先，她在推特上关注了她。
Blaire noticed, and she tweeted, "Laci Green just followed me.
布莱尔注意到了，她发推文说：“拉奇·格林刚刚跟着我。
Was that an accident, girl?
姑娘，那是一场意外吗？
lol." "Ha ha, nope.
哈哈。” “哈哈，不。
Been watching your vids and appreciate your perspective.
一直在观看您的视频并欣赏您的观点。
Sometimes, I agree.
有时，我同意。
Sometimes, I'm confused.
有时，我很困惑。
Want to chat?" Nerd face emoji.
想聊天吗？”书呆子脸表情符号。
"Yes, honey.
“是的，亲爱的。
Let's talk."
我们来谈谈吧。”
The people on Twitter couldn't decide whether this was a good idea.
Twitter 上的人们无法确定这是否是一个好主意。
More than one of Blaire's followers responded with an image of Admiral Ackbar from Return of the Jedi saying, "It's a trap!" In fact, when Laci and Blaire finally streamed their 2 and 1/2 hour long video chat, it was pretty civilized.
不止一名布莱尔的追随者用《绝地归来》中阿克巴上将的照片回应说：“这是一个陷阱！”事实上，当 Laci 和 Blaire 最终直播了他们长达 2 又 1/2 小时的视频聊天时，这是相当文明的。
Do these opinions and feelings need to be expressed in such a mean, cruel way?
这些意见和感受有必要用如此卑鄙、残酷的方式表达吗？
Yeah, I mean-- Laci Green I don't think it does.
是的，我的意思是——Laci Green，我不这么认为。
Yeah, like I said, there are certain content creators where their MO is just to destroy a person and others who--
是的，就像我说的，有些内容创作者的行为模式只是为了摧毁一个人和其他人——
I knew when I was talking to Blaire that I was basically speaking to that entire community, because they were all watching.
我知道当我与布莱尔交谈时，我基本上是在与整个社区交谈，因为他们都在观看。
Laci started hearing from other people in the anti-feminist world.
拉奇开始听取反女权主义世界其他人的意见。
They wanted to talk, too.
他们也想谈谈。
Very, very eager to have these conversations, and not even publicly-- wanted to just sit down and have lunch at Chipotle, have a Skype on a Friday night when we're all just bumming around.
非常非常渴望进行这些对话，甚至不是公开的——只是想坐下来在 Chipotle 吃午饭，在周五晚上我们闲逛的时候用 Skype 聊聊。
Talking to a celebrity YouTube feminist like Laci was a good way to get viewers.
与 Laci 这样的 YouTube 名人女权主义者交谈是吸引观众的好方法。
The idea was that Laci was making friends with her enemies-- people from the other tribe.
这个想法是拉西正在与她的敌人——来自另一个部落的人——交朋友。
In this world of YouTubers, it was a major plot development.
在 YouTuber 的世界里，这是一个重大的情节发展。
Everyone wanted to see what would happen next.
每个人都想看看接下来会发生什么。
Was Laci undergoing some kind of conversion?
拉奇是否正在经历某种转变？
Was she switching teams?
她要换队吗？
Talked to Andy Warski.
与安迪·沃斯基交谈。
Kelefa Sanneh He's a hyper-aggressive YouTuber.
Kelefa Sanneh 他是一位极具攻击性的 YouTuber。
He once said that social justice warriors should be shot-- metaphorically, he added, for legal reasons.
他曾经说过，社会正义斗士应该被枪决——他补充说，这是出于法律原因。
Yeah, I talked to Sargon.
是的，我和萨尔贡谈过。
Kelefa Sanneh That's the guy who got almost a million hits on his video making fun of Laci's feminism video.
Kelefa Sanneh 就是那个在取笑 Laci 的女权主义视频的视频中获得近百万点击量的人。
I talked to Bunty King, who is now one of my best friends.
我和邦蒂·金谈过，他现在是我最好的朋友之一。
He's a Canadian guy of Indian descent who loves to mock social justice warriors.
他是一个有印度血统的加拿大人，喜欢嘲笑社会正义战士。
All of them.
所有的人。
I've had conversations in some capacity with all of them.
我以某种身份与他们所有人进行过交谈。
Take 45.
取45。
Take 41.
取41。
Take 97.
取97。
Take fuck my ass.
操我的屁股。
You've got a friend in me!
你有一个朋友就是我！
Hey, everybody.
嘿，大家。
Welcome back to the Ray Gun Recap.
欢迎回到射线枪回顾。
Chris Ray Gun here, coming at you live from an unyielding whirlwind of physically and emotionally crippling stress.
克里斯·雷·冈 (Chris Ray Gun) 正在为您带来一场身体和情感上难以承受的巨大压力。
OK, so this is Chris Ray Gun, the patriarchy is raging guy.
好吧，这就是克里斯·雷·冈（Chris Ray Gun），父权制猖獗的家伙。
After Laci made a video about all these conversations, he made a video about her video, using her video in his video.
在 Laci 制作了有关所有这些对话的视频后，他制作了一个有关她的视频的视频，并在他的视频中使用了她的视频。
That's how this world works.
这就是这个世界的运作方式。
People have been pretty kind to me, and I'll be honest.
人们对我很好，我会说实话。
I didn't really expect that.
我真的没想到会这样。
No judgment, no vitriol.
没有评判，没有尖酸刻薄。
I even feel like I have a really good connection with a couple of new friends-- couple of new friends-- couple of new friends.
我什至觉得我和几个新朋友——几个新朋友——几个新朋友有着非常好的关系。
At this point, the screen goes black and white, and we see a close-up of Chris popping his collar in slow motion.
此时，屏幕变成黑白，我们看到克里斯以慢动作拉开衣领的特写镜头。
Yeah, that's right, guys.
是的，没错，伙计们。
That's the main part of the video that a lot of social justice types seem to have a problem with.
这是视频的主要部分，许多社会正义类型似乎都存在问题。
And there is certainly more to that video than just that, but this appears to be the main point of contention.
该视频当然不止于此，但这似乎是争论的主要焦点。
It's essentially just a video where Laci Green says, hey, you know, not all anti-SJW YouTubers are sub-human, Nazi pieces of filth, and I'm actually open to having a dialogue with them.
这本质上只是一个视频，Laci Green 说，嘿，你知道，并非所有反 SJW YouTuber 都是低人一等的纳粹污物，而且我实际上愿意与他们对话。
Then he makes fun of some of the feminist men who criticized Laci, but there's also a moment of journalistic disclosure.
然后他取笑了一些批评拉奇的女权主义者，但也有新闻披露的时刻。
Now, with all that said, what do I think about this whole Laci Green thing?
现在，话虽如此，我对整个 Laci Green 事件有何看法？
First, I should let all you guys know that I've actually become pretty good friends with Laci Green.
首先，我应该让大家知道，我实际上已经和 Laci Green 成为了很好的朋友。
We've been hanging out quite a bit, recently.
最近我们经常出去玩。
So, that is a thing that people should be aware of-- ethical standards and all that.
所以，人们应该意识到这一点——道德标准等等。
I'm letting you guys know that there is a bit of a conflict of interest here.
我让你们知道这里存在一些利益冲突。
But here's what I really think.
但这是我的真实想法。
He just cracks me up.
他只是让我笑了。
He's so funny, and he's such a sweetie.
他很有趣，而且很可爱。
He really is.
他确实是。
He's got the biggest heart.
他有最大的心。
You might not know it from his YouTube channel.
您可能不知道他的 YouTube 频道。
Chris and Laci had lunch at Chipotle for four hours, then they kept hanging out, and Laci made a decision.
克里斯和拉奇在 Chipotle 吃了四个小时的午餐，然后他们继续闲逛，拉奇做出了决定。
She wouldn't Google him.
她不会用谷歌搜索他。
She knew he was part of the anti-feminist tribe, more or less.
她或多或少知道他是反女权主义部落的一员。
But that was about it.
但仅此而已。
After all those years of straining to take everyone seriously, she liked the fact that he didn't even try.
经过这么多年努力认真对待每个人之后，她喜欢他甚至没有尝试过。
To him and to many anti-feminists, it was all a big game-- people trolling each other, making dumb jokes, sometimes arguing.
对他和许多反女权主义者来说，这都是一场大游戏——人们互相恶搞，开愚蠢的玩笑，有时甚至争论。
He didn't take it so personally.
他并不认为这是针对个人的。
And that's why she liked him.
这就是她喜欢他的原因。
Also, they like each other's company.
而且，他们喜欢彼此的陪伴。
And sometimes they talk about the same things they talk about in their videos.
有时他们谈论的事情与他们在视频中谈论的事情相同。
We have talked a lot about what rape culture is, the extent to which the United States is a rape culture.
我们已经讨论了很多什么是强奸文化，以及美国的强奸文化到什么程度。
He actually does see it pretty much the same way as I do, and once we change the language, we talk about it as not rape culture, but as coercion culture.
事实上，他的看法与我的看法几乎相同，一旦我们改变语言，我们就不再将其视为强奸文化，而是将其视为胁迫文化。
The ways that our--
我们的方式——
And of course, once people found out she was dating Chris Ray Gun, it was kind of a big deal.
当然，一旦人们发现她正在和克里斯·雷·甘约会，这就是一件大事。
The website, Vox, published a story that accused Laci of dating an alt-right troll.
Vox 网站发表了一篇报道，指责拉奇与另类右翼巨魔约会。
The story quoted an activist on Twitter who had written, "don't date alt right.
这篇报道引用了推特上一位活动人士的话说，“不要和另类约会。
Don't date white supremacists." And it quoted a popular Facebook post that accused Laci of turning her back on people of color.
不要和白人至上主义者约会。”它还引用了 Facebook 上的一篇热门帖子，指责拉奇拒绝有色人种。
It should be said that it's kind of strange to describe Chris Ray Gun as a white supremacist or a member of the alt-right.
应该说，将克里斯·雷·冈描述为白人至上主义者或另类右翼成员有点奇怪。
He's more like a sarcastic Puerto Rican guy from the Bronx who loves video games and thinks the social justice movement is ridiculous.
他更像是一个来自布朗克斯的爱讽刺的波多黎各人，喜欢电子游戏，并认为社会正义运动很荒谬。
More and more, Laci found herself hanging out with Chris and his friends, the anti-feminists.
拉西发现自己越来越多地与克里斯和他的反女权主义者朋友们在一起。
This made some feminist YouTubers really upset.
这让一些女权主义 YouTuber 非常沮丧。
If you're happy to associate with people who've sent their mob of shit heads toward me, then I just don't care about you.
如果你很乐意和那些向我投来一堆狗屎的人交往，那我就不在乎你了。
Like Riley J.
就像莱利·J.
Dennis, the old friend of Laci's, who had been targeted by Blaire White on YouTube.
丹尼斯，拉奇的老朋友，曾在 YouTube 上成为布莱尔·怀特的目标。
Maybe it's a this is our group and this is your group thing.
也许这是我们的团队，这是你的团队的事情。
But that group has done so many terrible things to me that even if you haven't directly done it, if you're still buddy-buddy with all these people, that hurts.
但那个团体对我做了很多可怕的事情，即使你没有直接这样做，如果你仍然是所有这些人的好朋友，那就很痛苦。
That's like you're basically cosigning it.
这就像你基本上是共同签署的。
Some people were saying that maybe Laci had never been a real feminist.
有人说拉奇也许从来就不是一个真正的女权主义者。
This seems to have had much more fallout for you than it has for him.
这对你的影响似乎比对他的影响要大得多。
Yeah, it definitely had more fallout for me.
是的，它确实对我产生了更多影响。
It kind of feels like you're the one who paid the price for this.
感觉就像你是为此付出代价的人。
Yes.
是的。
That is definitely true, because none of his followers care.
这绝对是真的，因为他的追随者都不关心。
They didn't turn around and be like, Chris Ray Gun is dating a feminazi, and she's just like this evil, horrible, man hater, baby killer.
他们并没有转身说，克里斯·雷·甘正在和一个女权主义者约会，而她就像这个邪恶、可怕、讨厌男人、婴儿杀手。
That just didn't happen.
那只是没有发生。
They just did not respond in that way, at all.
他们只是根本没有那样回应。
I feel like the feminist side of things is just much more negative and eager to bring people down.
我觉得女权主义的一面更加消极，并且渴望让人们失望。
And that was my perceived tribe, so of course it makes sense that I paid the bigger price for it.
那是我所认为的部落，所以我为此付出更大的代价当然是有道理的。
And that's one of the things that's bothered me all along, is this sort of gleeful willingness to just try to destroy people.
这是一直困扰我的事情之一，就是这种兴高采烈地想要摧毁别人的意愿。
But you do still identify as a feminist.
但你仍然认为自己是女权主义者。
Yeah.
是的。
I do feel sort of squished in between these two rocks that are just getting closer and closer.
我确实感觉有点被挤在这两块越来越近的岩石之间。
I don't always know how to handle it-- what to do.
我总是不知道如何处理——做什么。
In the last year, Laci hasn't posted many videos, and the ones she makes now don't have that same bubbly confidence and clarity.
去年，拉奇没有发布太多视频，而她现在制作的视频也没有那么自信和清晰。
Lately, she presents an issue, like whether toxic masculinity exists or whether it's OK for little boys to be drag queens, and tries to look at it from different angles.
最近，她提出了一个问题，比如有毒的男子气概是否存在，或者小男孩是否可以当变装皇后，并试图从不同的角度来看待这个问题。
She doesn't sound as if she's teaching-- more like she's trying to translate between two groups that don't talk to each other.
她听起来不像是在教学，更像是在试图在两个互不交谈的群体之间进行翻译。
This term, toxic masculinity, sounds like you're saying masculinity is toxic.
“有毒的男子气概”这个词听起来就像你在说男子气概是有毒的。
And I think that this is a bigger problem in social justice land.
我认为这是社会正义领域的一个更大问题。
A lot of the language that is used to communicate sounds kind of shamey.
许多用于交流的语言听起来有点可耻。
Personally, I don't care if we call it--
就我个人而言，我不在乎我们是否称之为——
Here's the thing about words you can't say.
这是关于你不能说的话的事情。
You can say them, if you want.
如果你愿意的话，你可以说出来。
It's just that there are consequences-- consequences you might not be able to predict.
只是会有后果——你可能无法预测的后果。
Like, Laci said feminist, and that set off a chain of events that ended with her dating an anti-feminist and leaving some of her feminist allies behind.
就像，拉奇说女权主义者，这引发了一系列事件，最终她与一位反女权主义者约会，并抛弃了她的一些女权主义盟友。
Kelefa Sanneh is a staff writer at The New Yorker magazine.
Kelefa Sanneh 是《纽约客》杂志的特约撰稿人。
Coming up, you shouldn't bring a toy to a gun fight, especially a gun fight in the state legislature.
接下来，你不应该带玩具去参加枪战，尤其是州立法机构的枪战。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Words You Can't Say." Stories of people saying the wrong thing and accidentally picking a fight with the very people they thought they agreed with.
今天的节目是《不能说的话》。人们说错话并意外地与他们认为同意的人发生争执的故事。
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, "Trigger Warning." So in this story, a politician uses a word that she loves-- a word her constituents love, in fact, and it backfires.
我们已经到了计划的第二幕“触发警告”。因此，在这个故事中，一位政治家使用了她喜欢的词——事实上，她的选民也喜欢这个词，但结果却适得其反。
Dana Chivvis tells what happened.
达纳·奇夫维斯讲述了发生的事情。
Dodie Horton is in her first term as a state representative in Louisiana, and last year, she made kind of a rookie mistake.
多迪·霍顿（Dodie Horton）正处于路易斯安那州州代表的第一个任期，去年她犯了一个菜鸟错误。
She's a Republican who describes herself this way.
她是这样描述自己的共和党人。
I'm just a regular Joe representing regular people like me.
我只是一个普通的乔，代表像我这样的普通人。
Dodie's version of regular Joe is pretty far to the right.
多迪版本的普通乔在右边相当远。
She's pro-life, pro-gun, voted for a bill to prohibit the removal of Confederate statues in Louisiana.
她是反堕胎、支持枪支的人，投票支持了一项禁止拆除路易斯安那州南部邦联雕像的法案。
She supports a travel ban, still thinks Barack Obama was born in Kenya, and after Donald Trump was elected President, she felt like--
她支持旅行禁令，仍然认为巴拉克·奥巴马出生在肯尼亚，在唐纳德·特朗普当选总统后，她觉得——
America's-- it's rejuvenated again.
美国——又恢复了活力。
I saw that in my own district.
我在自己的地区看到了这一点。
I see that when I go to the capitol.
当我去国会大厦时我看到了这一点。
The excitement of being an American again, he has brought.
他带来了再次成为美国人的兴奋。
God had mercy on us.
神怜悯了我们。
He had mercy on our country because we were headed straight into socialism.
他怜悯我们的国家，因为我们正在直接走向社会主义。
But last spring, something happened that she never expected-- she got beat up for not being conservative enough.
但去年春天，发生了一件让她始料未及的事情——她因为不够保守而被打了一顿。
It all started at a school in Bossier Parish.
这一切都始于波西尔教区的一所学校。
They call counties parishes in Louisiana.
他们将路易斯安那州的县称为教区。
Bossier Parish is the area that Dodie represents, and back in March, 2016, a high school student was caught with a handgun at a school there.
波西尔教区是多迪所代表的地区，早在 2016 年 3 月，一名高中生在那里的一所学校因持手枪被捕。
No one was shot, but word went around there were other guns at the school.
没有人被枪杀，但有消息称学校里还有其他枪支。
The Sheriff's department, the local police department, and the fire department all showed up.
治安部门、当地警察部门和消防部门都出现了。
They put the school on lock down, brought in gun sniffing dogs, and searched some of the students.
他们封锁了学校，引进了嗅枪犬，并对一些学生进行了搜查。
They even flew a drone over the roof to see if anyone had tossed a gun up there, and they did find another gun in a trash can.
他们甚至让无人机飞过屋顶，看看是否有人把枪扔在那里，他们确实在垃圾桶里发现了另一把枪。
When Sheriff Julian Whittington arrived at the scene, he asked one of his deputies to show him the two guns they'd found.
当警长朱利安·惠廷顿到达现场时，他要求一名副手向他展示他们发现的两把枪。
They were locked in the deputy's squad car.
他们被锁在副警长的警车里。
The sheriff studied them closely.
治安官仔细地观察着他们。
There was something weird about them.
他们身上有一些奇怪的东西。
Here's Sheriff Whittington.
请听惠廷顿警长的报道。
Well, I went and got my deputy that had secured it in his vehicle, and I said, I thought you told me both of these were real.
好吧，我去找了我的副手，他把它固定在他的车里，我说，我以为你告诉我这两个都是真的。
And he said, well, they are.
他说，嗯，是的。
I said, no, they're not.
我说，不，他们不是。
Let's look at them closely, here.
让我们在这里仔细看看它们。
As it turned out, one of the two guns wasn't real.
事实证明，两把枪中的一把不是真的。
It was an imitation of a real gun.
这是一把真枪的仿制品。
But the imitation was so good, the deputies hadn't noticed it was fake.
但模仿得如此之好，代表们没有注意到它是假的。
It even fooled the Sheriff, at first.
一开始它甚至愚弄了警长。
I'm telling you, I've handled guns all my life and have a bunch of them, and these things are so real, you literally cannot tell the difference until you literally try to find the clip and what caliber weapon it is.
我告诉你，我一生都在处理枪支，并且拥有一堆枪支，这些东西是如此真实，除非你真正尝试找到弹夹和它是什么口径的武器，否则你根本无法分辨出其中的区别。
That's how real they are.
这就是他们的真实情况。
So even holding the fake one in your hand, it has the weight and sort of the metal feel of a real gun?
那么即使你把假枪拿在手里，它的重量和金属感也和真枪一样吗？
After about three or four minutes of holding it and turning it over and looking, you finally determine for certain that it's not a real weapon.
拿着大约三四分钟，翻过来一看，你终于确定这不是真正的武器。
That's how real they look.
这就是它们看起来多么真实。
Oh my God.
我的天啊。
It takes you three or four minutes?
需要三四分钟吗？
What if that weapon were in a kid's hand, pointing at you?
如果那把武器在一个孩子手里，指着你怎么办？
You don't have three or four minutes.
你没有三四分钟的时间。
Meaning the cop will shoot whoever is pointing that fake gun at them, even if that person is a kid.
这意味着警察会射杀任何用假枪指着他们的人，即使那个人是个孩子。
And I should pause for a minute to explain something I hadn't truly understood before reporting this story.
在报道这个故事之前，我应该暂停一分钟来解释一些我没有真正理解的事情。
These fake guns the Sheriff is worried about-- they're not colorful, plastic guns like a Nerf gun or a Super Soaker, or even one of those plastic cap guns that make a loud bang.
警长担心的这些假枪——它们不是像 Nerf 枪或 Super Soaker 那样色彩缤纷的塑料枪，甚至不是那些发出巨响的塑料帽枪。
Those are what I would call toy guns.
这些就是我所说的玩具枪。
These fake guns, like the one the Sheriff's deputy thought was real-- these are basically guns, except they don't use gunpowder to shoot a bullet.
这些假枪，就像副警长认为是真的枪一样——这些基本上都是枪，只不过它们不使用火药来发射子弹。
I'm sure lots of people are familiar with them-- BB guns and these other ones called Airsoft guns.
我相信很多人都熟悉它们——BB 枪和其他被称为气枪的枪。
You can buy them at Walmart and at sporting goods stores.
您可以在沃尔玛和体育用品商店购买。
Actually, you can buy them on Amazon.
事实上，你可以在亚马逊上购买它们。
You can buy replicas of AK-47s and M16s on Amazon.
您可以在亚马逊上购买 AK-47 和 M16 的复制品。
The M16s will run you about $30.
M16 的售价约为 30 美元。
Some of them use compressed air to shoot plastic or metal BBs.
其中一些使用压缩空气来发射塑料或金属BB弹。
They fire at a lower velocity than real guns, so they're not as dangerous.
它们的射击速度比真枪低，因此危险性较低。
But you can still get really hurt if you get shot by them.
但如果你被他们射击，你仍然可能会受到很大的伤害。
The ones that shoot metal BBs can even kill a person.
发射金属BB弹的人甚至可以杀死一个人。
They're so close to the real thing, the police use them in training.
它们非常接近真实的东西，警察在训练中使用它们。
But because they don't use gunpowder, fake guns aren't subject to federal firearm laws and regulations.
但由于假枪不使用火药，因此不受联邦枪支法律和法规的约束。
This incident at the high school rattled the sheriff.
高中发生的这件事让治安官感到不安。
He and his deputies weren't sure what they could do to punish a kid who brought a fake gun to school.
他和他的副手们不确定如何惩罚一个带假枪到学校的孩子。
It was actually the next morning.
实际上是第二天早上。
My guys were talking to me about-- Sheriff, we don't really have a-- we're going to charge him with-- I forget what all.
我的人跟我说——警长，我们真的没有——我们要指控他——我忘了是什么罪名。
Disturbing the peace, maybe.
也许会扰乱治安。
But they said, since the gun is not real, we can't charge him with having a weapon on campus.
但他们说，由于这把枪不是真的，我们不能指控他在校园内持有武器。
I said, what?
我说，什么？
And so that's when we decided we need to clear this up.
所以就在那时我们决定需要解决这个问题。
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
I see the difference now.
我现在看到了区别。
I don't think I'd appreciated that before.
我想我以前并没有意识到这一点。
The thing is acting as a weapon, but you can't charge it as a weapon.
该东西可以充当武器，但你不能将其作为武器充电。
No, since it's not a real weapon under the current state law, we couldn't charge him with having a weapon on campus.
不，由于根据现行州法律，这不是真正的武器，因此我们不能指控他在校园内持有武器。
It's already illegal to carry a real gun on school campuses in Louisiana.
在路易斯安那州的校园里携带真枪已经是违法的。
Sheriff Whittington just thought you also shouldn't be able to carry something that looks exactly like a real gun into a school.
惠廷顿警长认为你也不应该携带看起来与真枪一模一样的东西进入学校。
He's aware of all the news stories about kids with fake guns getting shot by cops.
他知道所有关于拿着假枪的孩子被警察射杀的新闻报道。
In California last May, it was a 15-year-old.
去年五月在加利福尼亚州，那是一名 15 岁的孩子。
In Arkansas, a 16-year-old in July.
七月，阿肯色州一名 16 岁的孩子。
In the last three years, at least 113 people were killed by cops while holding fake weapons, according to data collected by the Washington Post.
根据《华盛顿邮报》收集的数据，过去三年中，至少有 113 人因持有假武器而被警察杀害。
With all that in mind, the sheriff asked Dodie to sponsor a bill.
考虑到这一切，治安官要求多迪发起一项法案。
What were you thinking when he's telling you the story about this incident at the high school?
当他向你讲述高中发生的这件事时，你在想什么？
Well, I am a gun enthusiast.
嗯，我是一名枪支爱好者。
I support all of our constitutional rights, and we are a huge Second Amendment right district and state, and I'm always packing.
我支持我们所有的宪法权利，我们是一个巨大的第二修正案权利地区和州，我总是打包行李。
Always.
总是。
Are you packing right now?
你现在正在收拾行李吗？
Dodie Horton Absolutely.
多迪·霍顿 绝对的。
It's always in my purse.
它一直在我的钱包里。
Dana Chivvis Oh, you just keep it in your purse.
Dana Chivvis 哦，你只要把它放在你的钱包里就可以了。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Look at that.
看看那个。
Yes, that's it.
是的，就是这样。
Dana Chivvis What kind of gun is it?
达纳·奇维斯 这是什么枪？
It is a Glock, and what it is-- it's a 9 millimeter.
它是一把格洛克手枪，它是什么——它是 9 毫米手枪。
Smaller and easier for me to carry, but just as deadly as if it was a bigger gun.
更小，更容易携带，但就像一把更大的枪一样致命。
I see.
我懂了。
Dodie Horton But I like it because it fits easily in my purse that I bought because I have that middle section and I zip it up, and so I'm always in control of it.
Dodie Horton 但我喜欢它，因为它很容易放进我买的钱包里，因为我有中间部分，而且我把它拉上拉链，所以我总是能控制它。
After talking to the sheriff, Dodie agreed to sponsor a bill that would make it illegal for anyone to bring an imitation firearm to school, to school events, or within 1,000 feet of a school.
在与治安官交谈后，多迪同意发起一项法案，规定任何人携带仿制枪支到学校、参加学校活动或学校 1000 英尺范围内都是非法的。
First time offenders could be fined $250 and sentenced to six months in prison.
初犯可被罚款 250 美元并被判处 6 个月监禁。
Our sheriff did not want one of the officers in Louisiana to shoot a student and have to live with that the rest of their lives.
我们的治安官不希望路易斯安那州的一名警官射杀一名学生，并在余生中忍受这种情况。
Of course.
当然。
Dodie Horton And the parents, as well.
多迪·霍顿 还有父母。
And so that is why I agreed to carry the legislation.
这就是我同意执行这项立法的原因。
Dodie's legislation became House Bill 43, or HB 43.
多迪的立法成为众议院第 43 号法案，或 HB 43。
It went public on March 6, a month before the start of the legislative session.
它于 3 月 6 日公开，即立法会议开始前一个月。
Dodie and the sheriff were interviewed about the bill on talk radio shows around the state.
多迪和警长在全州各地的谈话广播节目中接受了有关该法案的采访。
A lot of people thought it seemed totally sensible.
很多人认为这似乎完全合理。
I don't see anything good that could come in from keeping a right for students-- kids, basically-- to bring these fake guns to school.
我认为保留学生（基本上是孩子）将这些假枪带到学校的权利不会带来任何好处。
That's Don Dubuc on his radio show, More Outdoors.
这是唐·杜布克（Don Dubuc）在他的广播节目“更多户外活动”中的表现。
It's a hunting and fishing show.
这是一场狩猎和钓鱼表演。
His guests that day were a firearms instructor and the manager of a gun store.
那天他的客人是一名枪械教练和一家枪店的经理。
Don had run a poll about the bill the day before.
唐前一天就该法案进行了民意调查。
65% of listeners who weighed in were for Dodie's bill.
65% 参与参与的听众支持 Dodie 的法案。
Only 35% were against it, which still surprised one of Don's guests, Devin Burgess.
只有 35% 的人反对，这仍然让 Don 的一位客人 Devin Burgess 感到惊讶。
He's the one who manages the gun store.
他是枪店的老板。
I was surprised how large of an audience was opposed to that.
我很惊讶有这么多观众反对这一点。
You did a poll during that show, and I think it was 65% to 35%.
你在那个节目中做了一个民意调查，我认为是 65% 对 35%。
I don't see any reason that someone would oppose that.
我看不出有人会反对这一点。
I think it's a good thing, and we'll see what happens with it.
我认为这是一件好事，我们将看看会发生什么。
It's House Bill 43, and we'll watch it as it progresses through the session.
这是众议院第 43 号法案，我们将在会议期间关注它的进展。
What else did you guys want to talk about?
你们还想聊什么？
Well, Devin brought up the three guns you would have during the apocalypse, and I always--
好吧，德文提到了末世时期你会拥有的三把枪，而我总是——
The three guns you would bring to the apocalypse-- the gun version of what three books would you take to a desert island, only way more practical.
你会带去世界末日的三把枪——你会带三本书去荒岛的枪版本，只是更实用。
The enthusiastic response Dodie got on More Outdoors is not what she remembers about the bill.
多迪记忆中，该法案在“更多户外活动”上得到的热烈反响并不如她所记得的那样。
What she remembers is the backlash she got from her own people, mainly Republicans around the state.
她记得的是她自己的人民，主要是全州共和党人的强烈反对。
This is a radio show called Tom Gresham's Gun Talk.
这是一个名为“汤姆·格雷沙姆的枪谈”的广播节目。
Yeah.
是的。
And how did Louisiana come to this?
路易斯安那州是如何走到这一步的？
The host, Tom Gresham, was not a fan of Dodie's bill.
主持人汤姆·格雷沙姆（Tom Gresham）并不喜欢多迪的法案。
Gresham lives in Louisiana, but it's a national show.
格雷沙姆住在路易斯安那州，但这是一场全国性的演出。
Elected lawmakers always feel they must do something.
当选的立法者总是觉得他们必须做点什么。
We must do something.
我们必须做点什么。
That's what we're here for.
这就是我们来这里的目的。
We have to do something.
我们必须做点什么。
State representative-- this is Louisiana, Dodie Horton, Republican.
州代表——我是路易斯安那州共和党人多迪·霍顿。
So, she's introduced a bill in the legislature that could put a student in jail for up to six months for bringing a fake gun to a public school or a school event.
因此，她向立法机关提出了一项法案，如果学生携带假枪参加公立学校或学校活动，可能会被判处最高六个月的监禁。
They say, well, these guns just look real.
他们说，好吧，这些枪看起来就是真的。
We can't tell the difference.
我们无法区分。
Well, OK.
好吧，好吧。
I understand that there's a problem.
我知道有问题。
I understand that you're concerned.
我知道你很担心。
But this isn't the way to do it.
但这不是这样做的方法。
This has so many downsides.
这有很多缺点。
Dodie told me a lot of the concerns she heard on talk radio were about real guns.
多迪告诉我，她在电台谈话节目中听到的很多担忧都是关于真枪的。
People thought HB 43 was a gun control bill.
人们认为 HB 43 是枪支管制法案。
She says she went on seven different conservative radio shows in Louisiana to talk about her fake guns bill, and--
她说她在路易斯安那州参加了七个不同的保守派广播节目，谈论她的假枪法案，而且——
It was amazing how I found Republicans eat their own.
令人惊讶的是我发现共和党人吃自己的东西。
Republicans were the ones who were coming at me, and just calling me all kind of names, but I'm very thick skinned.
共和党人是来攻击我的，他们用各种各样的名字来称呼我，但我脸皮很厚。
I know who I am, and it just blew my mind that they could not wrap their head around imitation-- imitation firearm.
我知道我是谁，令我震惊的是他们竟然无法专注于仿制品——仿制枪支。
They just thought it was just infringing, again, on Second Amendment rights.
他们只是认为这再次侵犯了第二修正案的权利。
They thought it was a gun control bill that could be amended in some way to allow real guns to be implemented in it.
他们认为这是一项枪支管制法案，可以通过某种方式进行修改，以允许在其中实施真枪。
And I would never have allowed my name to be attached to any bill that implemented gun control in any way.
我永远不会允许我的名字出现在任何以任何方式实施枪支管制的法案上。
I mean, did you find yourself just saying, over and over again, these are fake guns we're talking about.
我的意思是，你是否发现自己一遍又一遍地说，我们正在谈论的这些是假枪。
I did, over and over.
我做到了，一遍又一遍。
So I say, have you ever seen one of these imitation firearms?
那我说，你见过这样的仿真枪械吗？
Have you seen it?
你见过吗？
Have you held it?
你握住了吗？
Has anyone pulled one on you?
有人对你拉过一把吗？
What did they say?
他们说什么？
Dodie Horton No. But we still don't like the bill.
多迪·霍顿 不。但我们仍然不喜欢这个法案。
Dodie was perplexed.
多迪很困惑。
She told me she ran the bill past a friend of hers-- a guy who is a state trooper and a firearms instructor, to make sure there wasn't something in it she was just totally missing.
她告诉我，她把账单交给了她的一个朋友——一个是州警和枪械教练的朋友，以确保其中没有她完全遗漏的东西。
She said he couldn't find anything wrong with it, either.
她说他也找不到任何问题。
But he told her the problem with her critics was--
但他告诉她批评者的问题是——
They refused to hear.
他们拒绝听。
They're refusing to hear because they've heard from the liberal media so much about gun control, they're on edge.
他们拒绝倾听，因为他们从自由派媒体那里听到了太多有关枪支管制的信息，他们感到紧张。
Wait, just to break that down for me a little bit more.
等等，让我再详细解释一下。
What is the fear coming out of the liberal media?
自由派媒体的恐惧是什么？
It's gun control.
这是枪支管制。
To people that are gun enthusiasts, they just fear that the liberals are coming to get them.
对于枪支爱好者来说，他们只是担心自由主义者会来拿枪。
They're coming to take our weapons away.
他们要来夺走我们的武器。
And so you're a liberal, then?
那么你是一个自由主义者？
You're the liberal in this case.
在这种情况下，你是自由主义者。
That's how they were looking at me, and I am just far from that.
他们就是这样看我的，而我却远非如此。
You know?
你知道？
Dodie was convinced the bill didn't infringe on anyone's Second Amendment rights, but she still tried to reassure people.
多迪确信该法案没有侵犯任何人的第二修正案权利，但她仍然试图安抚人们。
She said she'd work with the NRA to get their input on the bill.
她表示，她将与全国步枪协会合作，征求他们对该法案的意见。
Depending on how you look at this, that move is either obvious-- because hello, the word "gun" is in the bill-- or totally nonsensical, because the word "imitation" precedes the word "gun" in the bill.
根据你如何看待这一点，这一举动要么是显而易见的——因为你好，法案中出现了“枪”这个词——要么完全是荒谬的，因为法案中“模仿”一词位于“枪”一词之前。
The Second Amendment, of course, gives Americans the right to bear arms, not the right to bear fake arms.
当然，第二修正案赋予美国人持有武器的权利，而不是持有假武器的权利。
But the NRA has a lot of influence in Louisiana.
但全国步枪协会在路易斯安那州有很大的影响力。
More than 2/3 of Louisiana state legislators have a grade of A-minus or better from the NRA.
超过 2/3 的路易斯安那州立法者获得 NRA 的 A- 或更高评级。
Even Dodie, who's always packing, only got a B from them.
即使是总是收拾行李的多迪，也只得到了B。
So she got in touch with Art Thomm.
于是她联系了阿特·托姆。
He was the NRA's lobbyist in Louisiana at the time.
当时他是全国步枪协会在路易斯安那州的说客。
She said she spent about a week working with him.
她说她和他一起工作了大约一周。
The NRA had come back to me and said, we just can't get on board.
全国步枪协会回来告诉我，我们就是不能加入。
I said, give me a reason why.
我说，给我一个理由。
We just don't like it.
我们只是不喜欢它。
And I said, but it's an imitation firearm.
我说，但这是一把仿制枪械。
And so I said, well, if you take no position, then that's fine.
所以我说，好吧，如果你不采取立场，那也没关系。
No position.
没有立场。
Her goal was just to get the NRA to officially take no position, which is actually kind of like taking a position-- one that says, we're neutral on this.
她的目标只是让全国步枪协会正式不采取任何立场，这实际上有点像采取一种立场——即我们对此保持中立。
Make up your own minds about it.
你自己拿主意吧。
But they wouldn't do it.
但他们不会这么做。
Instead, they just said nothing about the bill, which indicated to their supporters and to legislators that they should oppose HB 43.
相反，他们只是对该法案只字不提，这向他们的支持者和立法者表明他们应该反对 HB 43。
When I first heard about this story, the main thing that interested me was the possibility that the NRA was opposing the fake guns bill on Second Amendment grounds-- that they believed Dodie's bill might somehow erode or endanger our right to own real guns.
当我第一次听说这个故事时，让我感兴趣的主要事情是全国步枪协会可能以第二修正案为由反对假枪法案——他们认为多迪的法案可能会以某种方式侵蚀或危及我们拥有真枪的权利。
The NRA has opposed fake and toy gun laws in California, New Jersey, and Maryland.
全国步枪协会反对加利福尼亚州、新泽西州和马里兰州的假枪和玩具枪法。
The NRA wouldn't agree to an interview with me about this, so I can't say for sure if they're doing this out of a fear of gun control.
全国步枪协会不同意就此事接受我的采访，所以我不能确定他们这样做是否是出于对枪支管制的恐惧。
Fortunately, the president of the Louisiana Shooting Association did talk to me.
幸运的是，路易斯安那州射击协会主席确实与我交谈过。
They're an independent organization affiliated with the NRA.
他们是隶属于全国步枪协会的独立组织。
Their president's name is Dan Zelenka, and he was unambiguous about Dodie's bill.
他们的总统叫丹泽伦卡，他对多迪的法案毫不含糊。
It clearly was treated as a gun control bill.
它显然被视为枪支管制法案。
While the national NRA wouldn't take a stand on Dodie's bill, the Louisiana Shooting Association flat out opposed it.
虽然全国步枪协会不会对多迪的法案表明立场，但路易斯安那州射击协会却断然反对。
When Dan first read the bill, he was shocked to see Dodie's name on it.
当丹第一次读到账单时，他惊讶地发现上面有多迪的名字。
I sent her an email immediately, saying, what gives?
我立即给她发了一封电子邮件，说，有什么好处？
Because this is not you.
因为这不是你。
Thank you for contacting me.
感谢您与我联系。
I am and will always be a strong Second Amendment activist.
我现在是、也将永远是一名坚定的第二修正案积极分子。
This bill does not infringe on our gun rights, blah, blah, blah, blah.
这项法案并没有侵犯我们的枪支权利，等等，等等，等等。
OK.
好的。
I asked her, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this?
我问她，你到底想通过这个达到什么目的？
Because there may be a way to accomplish it without having any kind of anti-gun, even though it's a toy gun, but anti-gun implications.
因为可能有一种方法可以在没有任何反枪的情况下完成它，即使它是一把玩具枪，但有反枪的含义。
How does a bill about toy guns lead to a fear about real guns?
关于玩具枪的法案如何导致对真枪的恐惧？
Let me try to figure out how to put this correctly.
让我试着弄清楚如何正确地表达它。
OK.
好的。
Dan Zelenka Even though it doesn't actually impinge on or infringe on Second Amendment rights, OK, there's no actual infringement, but there's an appearance of infringement.
Dan Zelenka：尽管它实际上并没有侵犯或侵犯第二修正案的权利，好吧，没有实际侵权，但有表面侵权。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Dan says the problem with a bill like this isn't that it chips away at gun rights, directly.
丹说，这样的法案的问题并不在于它直接削弱了枪支权利。
The problem is about messaging.
问题在于消息传递。
A bill like this might send the message that guns are inherently bad, and this fear lies at the heart of a battle going on between gun rights people and gun control people-- a battle for attitudes, Dan calls it.
这样的法案可能会传达这样的信息：枪支本质上是不好的，而这种恐惧是枪支权利人士和枪支管制人士之间正在进行的斗争的核心——丹称之为态度之争。
He brought up a speech that Obama's attorney general, Eric Holder, gave in 1995, years before he was the attorney general.
他提到了奥巴马的司法部长埃里克·霍尔德 (Eric Holder) 于 1995 年发表的一次演讲，那是他担任司法部长之前的几年。
Gun rights people refer to this speech a lot.
枪支权利人士经常引用这篇演讲。
In it, Holder lays out a vision for combating gun violence-- an information campaign.
在其中，霍尔德提出了打击枪支暴力的愿景——一场信息运动。
And what we need to do is change the way in which people think about guns, especially young people, and make it something that's not cool-- that it's not acceptable.
我们需要做的是改变人们，尤其是年轻人对枪支的看法，让它变得不酷——不可接受。
It's not hip to carry a gun any more, in the way in which we've changed our attitudes about cigarettes.
带着枪不再时髦了，就像我们改变了对香烟的态度一样。
He goes on to say that he's asked ad agencies to help them with this.
他接着说，他已要求广告公司帮助他们解决这个问题。
It's not enough to simply have a catchy ad on a Monday and then only do it every Monday.
仅仅在周一投放吸引人的广告然后每周一投放是不够的。
We need to do this every day of the week, and just really brainwash people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way.
我们需要每周每天都这样做，并真正给人们洗脑，让他们以截然不同的方式思考枪支。
That word, brainwash, is kind of a trigger for gun rights people-- no pun intended.
“洗脑”这个词是枪支权利人士的触发因素——这不是双关语。
And even though Holder was talking specifically about getting guns off the streets in Washington, DC, where he was the US attorney at the time, this idea that gun control groups are trying to brainwash kids into disliking guns-- that's enough to raise red flags over a bill like Dodie's.
尽管霍尔德当时是美国检察官，他具体谈论的是让枪支不再出现在华盛顿特区的街道上，但枪支管制组织试图给孩子们洗脑，让他们不喜欢枪支——这足以对像多迪这样的法案发出危险信号。
I just think criminalizing mere possession of a toy, without having somebody committing a crime-- I just don't think we have any place for it.
我只是认为仅将拥有玩具定为刑事犯罪，而无需有人犯罪——我只是认为我们没有任何余地。
And what does that indicate to you, in terms of society?
就社会而言，这对您来说意味着什么？
You brought up Eric Holder.
你培养了埃里克·霍尔德。
I am not sure what that indicates, exactly.
我不确定这到底表明了什么。
But a five-year-old kid was suspended from school for eating his Pop-Tart into the shape of a gun.
但一名五岁的孩子因将果馅饼吃成枪状而被停学。
Yeah.
是的。
Dan Zelenka So, if that is not brainwashing that guns are bad, I'm not sure what.
丹·泽伦卡：所以，如果这不是洗脑说枪支不好的话，我不确定是什么。
This Pop-Tart he's talking about is probably the most famous Pop-Tart that ever existed.
他所说的这个馅饼可能是有史以来最著名的馅饼。
It was chewed into the shape of a gun by a second grader in Maryland.
它被马里兰州的一名二年级学生咀嚼成枪的形状。
He was seven, by the way, not five.
顺便说一句，他七岁，而不是五岁。
He was suspended from school for two days, which led to a slew of so-called, Pop-Tart gun bills, in which state legislators passed laws saying that kids couldn't be punished in schools for imaginary gun play.
他被停学两天，这导致了一系列所谓的“流行蛋挞枪支法案”，其中州立法者通过了法律，规定孩子们不能因为想象中的枪支游戏而在学校受到惩罚。
Dan says in this battle for attitudes, if you're writing a bill that criminalizes imitation guns, that's sending the message that guns are bad.
丹说，在这场态度之争中，如果你正在起草一项将仿制枪定为犯罪的法案，那就是在传达枪支不好的信息。
And he says that's not the only reason the Louisiana Shooting Association was opposed to Dodie's fake guns bill.
他说，这并不是路易斯安那州射击协会反对多迪的假枪法案的唯一原因。
They also thought that local school boards should be the ones deciding what to do if a kid brought a fake gun to school, not state legislators.
他们还认为，如果孩子携带假枪到学校，应该由当地学校董事会决定该怎么做，而不是州立法者。
And they also thought the law wasn't necessary, because any kid who threatened someone else with a fake gun can still be charged with assault, even if they can't be charged for having a weapon, like the sheriff wanted.
他们还认为法律没有必要，因为任何用假枪威胁别人的孩子仍然可以被指控袭击，即使他们不能像治安官想要的那样因拥有武器而受到指控。
Of course, the NRA is running their own campaign in this battle for attitudes.
当然，全国步枪协会也在这场态度之战中开展自己的活动。
All right, I love toy guns.
好吧，我喜欢玩具枪。
Even at 47, I still play with toy guns with my 7-year-old son.
即使已经 47 岁了，我仍然和 7 岁的儿子一起玩玩具枪。
I also play with my real guns, too.
我也用我的真枪玩。
The anti-gun left, though, as you can imagine, doesn't just hate real guns, it hates all guns-- even fun, toy laser guns that my 7-year-old happens to play with for hours.
然而，正如你可以想象的那样，反枪左派不仅讨厌真枪，还讨厌所有枪支——甚至包括我 7 岁的孩子碰巧玩了几个小时的有趣的玩具激光枪。
This is Grant Stinchfield.
这是格兰特·斯廷奇菲尔德。
He hosts a show on NRA TV, the NRA's 24 hours a day, seven days a week broadcast network.
他在 NRA TV 上主持节目，这是 NRA 每周 7 天、每天 24 小时播出的广播网络。
They have 36 shows that stream on their website and on satellite radio, including one hosted by Oliver North.
他们有 36 个节目在其网站和卫星广播上播放，其中包括奥利弗·诺斯 (Oliver North) 主持的节目。
Here's Stinchfield.
这里是斯廷奇菲尔德。
The latest article is written by a gay dad for a gay publication.
最新的文章是一位同性恋父亲为同性恋出版物撰写的。
He ends his piece saying, quote, "I am well aware that toy guns aren't the same as real guns, but the way I see it, they both kill people, even if it's only in our imagination.
他在文章的结尾说道：“我很清楚玩具枪与真枪不同，但在我看来，它们都会杀人，即使这只是在我们的想象中。
And I'm not OK with that.
我对此不满意。
Not on my watch." Only a liberal can think killing in your imagination and killing in real life are the same thing.
不在我的监视之下。”只有自由主义者才会认为想象中的杀戮和现实生活中的杀戮是同一件事。
They aren't.
他们不是。
Stop wussifying our children.
别再让我们的孩子变得懦弱了。
Let boys be boys.
让男孩成为男孩吧。
It worked for me.
这对我有用。
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
The NRA is putting up a fight of its own in this battle for attitudes.
在这场态度之争中，全国步枪协会正在进行自己的斗争。
Besides NRA TV, they have at least eight Twitter accounts, five magazines, seven content producing web sites, and a lifestyle brand they call NRA Country, an attempt to attract young people by connecting the NRA to country music stars.
除了 NRA TV 之外，他们还拥有至少 8 个 Twitter 帐户、五本杂志、七个内容制作网站，以及一个名为 NRA Country 的生活方式品牌，该品牌试图通过将 NRA 与乡村音乐明星联系起来来吸引年轻人。
But anyway, back to Louisiana-- springtime, 2017.
但无论如何，回到路易斯安那州——2017 年春天。
Dodie pre-filed her bill, and it pretty quickly got the attention of a state representative named Blake Miguez.
多迪预先提交了她的法案，很快就引起了一位名叫布莱克·米格斯（Blake Miguez）的州代表的注意。
He's considered one of the go to guys for gun rights stuff in Louisiana-- keeps his eye on everything that's being proposed.
他被认为是路易斯安那州枪支权利问题的最佳人选之一——密切关注所有提议。
See, what I'll do is I can search the bills that are gun related, and I'll look and I'll see-- let's say there's 15 that pop up.
看，我要做的就是搜索与枪支相关的账单，然后我会查看 - 假设有 15 个弹出。
But I like to do that every session.
但我喜欢每次会议都这样做。
So he's doing that, and he sees Dodie's bill.
所以他这样做了，然后他看到了多迪的账单。
And I know that she is a supporter of firearms.
我知道她是枪支的支持者。
There's no point in-- I know that she's not passing a piece of legislation, or I'd like to believe and presume she's not going to pass a piece of legislation that's anti-gun.
我知道她不会通过一项立法，或者我愿意相信并假设她不会通过一项反枪支立法，这是没有意义的。
So I'm going, is this a gun issue or is this not a gun issue?
那么我想，这是枪支问题还是不是枪支问题？
It looks and it smells like a Second Amendment bill, but it's not actually one.
它看起来、闻起来都像第二修正案法案，但实际上不是。
It was the imitation part of the imitation guns bill that threw Blake for a loop.
正是仿制枪支法案中的仿制部分让布莱克陷入了困境。
In the end, Blake decided the bill didn't threaten the Second Amendment, but he was still against it for some of the same reasons as the Louisiana Shooting Association.
最终，布莱克认为该法案不会威胁到第二修正案，但他仍然出于与路易斯安那州射击协会相同的原因而反对该法案。
But he also gave Dodie some advice about the NRA.
但他也给了多迪一些关于全国步枪协会的建议。
It's hard to pass a piece of legislation that is perceived to deal with guns without the NRA's support.
如果没有全国步枪协会的支持，很难通过一项被认为涉及枪支的立法。
Blake said, you don't want to go against them.
布莱克说，你不想反对他们。
If the NRA opposes it, then it validates the other Republicans' fears that it's a bad bill.
如果全国步枪协会反对它，那么这就证实了其他共和党人的担心，即这是一项糟糕的法案。
And he's right.
他是对的。
He was right.
他是对的。
By the time Dodie got to Baton Rouge for the start of the legislative session in April, she had the impression her bill was doomed-- that it wouldn't make it out of committee.
当多迪四月份到达巴吞鲁日参加立法会议开始时，她的印象是她的法案注定要失败——它不会通过委员会。
What was the advice you got from your fellow Republican legislators when you were having this backlash?
当您遇到这种强烈反对时，您从共和党议员同僚那里得到了什么建议？
What advice did they give you?
他们给了你什么建议？
Drop the bill.
放下账单。
Pull the bill.
拉帐单。
You're our friend.
你是我们的朋友。
We don't want you to go down on this.
我们不希望你在这件事上失望。
It will not pass committee.
它不会通过委员会。
What were they worried would happen to you if you kept at it?
如果你坚持下去，他们担心你会发生什么？
They just felt that I would be ostracized in some way, possibly.
他们只是觉得我可能会在某种程度上受到排斥。
They didn't want to see me being known within the Louisiana Republican Party as someone that needs to go-- that I've just crossed a line as a Republican.
他们不想看到我在路易斯安那州共和党内被认为是一个需要下台的人——我刚刚越过了作为共和党人的界限。
So Dodie pulled the bill.
所以多迪撤回了账单。
She made the decision after meeting with some members of the Criminal Justice Committee, where she had planned to introduce it.
她在与刑事司法委员会的一些成员会面后做出了这一决定，她原计划将其介绍给刑事司法委员会。
I felt defeated.
我感到自己被打败了。
I look at timing and open doors-- they were shut when I walked in that capitol.
我查看时机并打开大门——当我走进那座国会大厦时，大门已关闭。
They said, look, we understand it's imitation, but the public doesn't.
他们说，你看，我们理解这是模仿，但公众不理解。
And I'm going, golly, guys.
我要走了，天哪，伙计们。
Not you, too.
也不是你。
Not y'all, too.
你们也不是。
She never thought it would come to this.
她没想到事情会发展到这个地步。
An NRA loving, Trump Republican with a loaded Glock in her purse.
一位热爱全国步枪协会的特朗普共和党人，她的钱包里有一把上膛的格洛克手枪。
Somehow, she wasn't Republican enough.
不知何故，她不够共和党。
Some people even used one of the worst insults you can sling at a person like Dodie.
有些人甚至对像多迪这样的人使用了最严重的侮辱之一。
They called her a RINO, which, of course, stands for Republican In Name Only.
他们称她为“RINO”，当然，这代表“名义上的共和党”。
It stung.
它刺痛了。
She felt betrayed.
她感觉自己被背叛了。
She felt let down by her fellow gun rights supporters and by her fellow Republicans across the state.
她对枪支权利支持者和全州的共和党同胞感到失望。
They turned on me.
他们转向我。
I felt that my own party turned on me, and I never have experienced that before.
我觉得我自己的政党对我发起了攻击，这是我以前从未经历过的。
And it was unreal.
这是不真实的。
The fake guns bill lived and died in a matter of five weeks, and if now, in retrospect, that seems inevitable, consider what happened in Dodie's own district, Bossier Parish, months before she sponsored HB 43.
假枪法案在短短五周内就生灭了，如果现在回想起来，这似乎是不可避免的，那么想想在多迪自己的地区博西尔教区发生的事情，就在她赞助 HB 43 的几个月前。
A local version of the fake guns bill came up in the parish government-- it's like a city council-- and it passed, unanimously.
教区政府（就像市议会）提出了当地版本的假枪法案，并一致通过。
Sheriff Whittington was behind the local ordinance, same as he was behind Dodie's statewide bill.
惠廷顿警长是当地法令的支持者，就像他是多迪全州法案的支持者一样。
Not a bit.
一点也不。
Dana Chivvis Everyone was on board with it?
Dana Chivvis 每个人都同意吗？
Not one bit of resistance.
没有一丝一毫的反抗。
Dana Chivvis And it's not like you're in some gun hating liberal pocket of Louisiana.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 这并不像你身处路易斯安那州某个仇恨自由派的枪林弹雨之中。
No, we're not.
不，我们不是。
We're probably one of the-- out of all the parishes, probably the top three most conservative parishes in the state.
我们可能是所有教区之一，可能是该州前三个最保守的教区。
It passed in the parish and not the state house because, first of all, generally, nobody pays attention to local politics.
它在教区而不是州议会通过，因为首先，一般来说，没有人关注当地政治。
So, the whole discussion took place outside the hyper-charged, us versus them, never give an inch battleground, where so much of the rest of our politics takes place.
因此，整个讨论是在激烈的外部进行的，我们与他们的斗争，从来没有让出一英寸的战场，而我们的政治其余大部分都是在那里发生的。
The Bossier Parish sheriff said he wanted the ordinance.
波西尔教区警长表示他想要这项法令。
The parish lawyer assured everyone it did not imply they were anti-Second Amendment, and voila, as they used to say in those parts.
教区律师向大家保证，这并不意味着他们反对第二修正案，瞧，就像他们在那些地方常说的那样。
It passed.
它过去了。
What happened to Dodie at the statehouse was just the normal, run of the mill way that so much political debate is snuffed out in this country.
多迪在州议会所发生的事情只是正常现象，以至于这个国家如此多的政治辩论被扼杀了。
Liberals see a bill that restricts abortions in any way, and they're automatically and unequivocally against it.
自由主义者看到一项以任何方式限制堕胎的法案，他们自然而然地明确反对它。
Conservatives hear about legislation that expands any rights for undocumented immigrants, and the conversation is ended before it's begun.
保守派听说扩大无证移民权利的立法，谈话还没开始就结束了。
We often don't even get to the point of agreeing that there might be a problem worth fixing because we're so scared the other side will get to decide the solution.
我们常常甚至不同意可能存在值得解决的问题，因为我们非常害怕另一方会决定解决方案。
Maybe Dodie's bill, in the form it was in, wasn't the best way to resolve the problem the sheriff was facing, but the problem the Sheriff was facing was certainly a problem worth discussing.
也许多迪的法案，就其形式而言，并不是解决治安官面临的问题的最佳方式，但治安官面临的问题无疑是一个值得讨论的问题。
Dana Chivvis is one of the producers of our show.
达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 是我们节目的制片人之一。
For our program-- was produced today by Stephanie Foo.
我们的节目今天由 Stephanie Foo 制作。
The people who put this show together include Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Damien Gray, Kimberly Henderson, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Miki Meek, Alvin Melathe, Ben Phelan, Robyn Semien, Lilly Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.
制作这部剧的人员包括 Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Damien Gray、Kimberly Henderson、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Miki Meek、Alvin Melathe、Ben Phelan、Robyn Semien、Lilly Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our managing editor is Susan Burton.
我们的总编辑是苏珊·伯顿。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, I have to remind him sometimes that I am really, actually in charge of the radio show.
你知道，有时我必须提醒他，我真的、实际上负责广播节目。
His response is always the same.
他的反应总是一样的。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。