632: Our Town - Part One - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #632 | December 8, 2017 632: Our Town - Part One Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 632 集 | 2017 年 12 月 8 日 632：我们的小镇 - 第 1 部分 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue: Prologue Ira Glass Today's whole show came out of this thing that we heard that politicians said.
序言： 序言 Ira Glass 今天的整个节目就是从我们听到政客说的这件事来的。
And we wondered-- is that true?
我们想知道——这是真的吗？
Like, was he right?
就像，他是对的吗？
And the answer set us on this eight-month journey, where at some point, like the best journeys, I think, we forgot what the original reason was that we set out.
答案让我们踏上了这段为期八个月的旅程，在某些时候，就像最好的旅程一样，我认为，我们忘记了我们出发的最初原因是什么。
And we just started to learn all kinds of things that we had never imagined back at the beginning.
我们刚刚开始学习各种我们一开始从未想象过的东西。
Where we ended up was Albertville, Alabama, a mountain town in the northern part of the state, a town that went through a huge change in population very quickly.
我们最终到达的地方是阿拉巴马州的阿尔贝维尔，这是该州北部的一个山区小镇，这个小镇很快就经历了巨大的人口变化。
Back in 1990, Albertville was 98% white.
早在 1990 年，阿尔贝维尔就有 98% 的白人。
Then it got a flood of outsiders, mostly from Mexico, documented and undocumented immigrants.
然后，大批外来者涌入这里，其中大部分来自墨西哥、有证件和无证移民。
So many people that after just 20 years the all-white town was more than 1/4 Latino.
人口如此之多，仅仅 20 年后，这个全是白人的小镇就已经超过 1/4 的拉丁裔人口。
Basically, Albertville was around 15,000 people.
基本上，阿尔贝维尔约有 15,000 人。
It got another 6,000.
又得到了6,000。
Most of them came to work in the poultry processing plants in town.
他们大多数来到镇上的家禽加工厂工作。
And one nice thing about Albertville-- if you want to understand what really happened there during the town's big change-- it's small enough that you can just show up.
阿尔贝维尔的一大优点是——如果您想了解小镇发生重大变化期间到底发生了什么——它足够小，您只需到场即可。
Like, everybody's still kind of right there.
就像，每个人都还在那里。
Like, if you walk into one of the poultry plants and ask, who was the first Latino worker to show up here?
就像，如果你走进一家家禽加工厂并问，谁是第一个出现在这里的拉丁裔工人？
They actually know.
他们其实知道。
One of my coworkers, Miki Meek, did just that.
我的一位同事 Miki Meek 就是这样做的。
Do you remember who one of the first immigrants was to work at the plant?
您还记得第一批在工厂工作的移民是谁吗？
Gregoria, Gregoria something.
格雷戈里亚，格雷戈里亚什么的。
I don't know his last name.
我不知道他的姓氏。
They called him ravioli.
他们叫他馄饨。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Cause his name's hard to pronounce, I guess.
我猜是因为他的名字很难发音。
[LAUGHTER] Woman 2 And he couldn't speak any English.
[笑声] 女人 2 他不会说英语。
Kind of shy, you know?
有点害羞，你知道吗？
And his name was Gregoriola, and he's still at the plant.
他的名字叫格雷戈里奥拉，还在工厂里。
We did locate this mythical Latino chicken plant Neil Armstrong, Gregorio.
我们确实找到了这个神话般的拉丁养鸡工厂尼尔阿姆斯特朗，格雷戈里奥。
And he is kind of shy, wouldn't make eye contact, mumbled.
而且他有点害羞，不愿与人目光接触，嘟哝着。
And after we made three visits to his house, he finally got rid of us by fobbing us off on his uncle.
我们去了他家三次之后，他终于通过欺骗他叔叔摆脱了我们。
Gregorio?
格雷戈里奥？
I mean, he not talk to nobody, too quiet.
我的意思是，他不跟任何人说话，太安静了。
His uncle, Fernando Martinez, is the opposite of shy-- extroverted, super-friendly, an amateur guitarist and singer with a gigantic mustache and shaggy hair that make him look like the 1970s country rock star, Freddy Fender.
他的叔叔费尔南多·马丁内斯 (Fernando Martinez) 与害羞截然相反，性格外向、超级友好，是一名业余吉他手和歌手，留着大胡子和蓬松的头发，这让他看起来像 20 世纪 70 年代的乡村摇滚明星弗雷迪·芬德 (Freddy Fender)。
Fernando and Gregorio came to the chicken plants in Albertville right when this all began, sometime around 1991, neither can remember exactly.
当这一切开始时，费尔南多和格雷戈里奥来到了阿尔贝维尔的养鸡厂，大约是在 1991 年左右，两人都记不清了。
And one of the people Fernando met was Pat.
费尔南多遇到的人之一是帕特。
Now in her 60s and eligible for retirement, she's still working, still tough, always on the move.
现在她已经 60 多岁了，已经有资格退休了，但她仍然在工作，仍然很坚强，总是在前进。
That's what I like about it.
这就是我喜欢它的原因。
I go to work.
我去上班。
I clock in at 15 to 4:00 every morning.
我每天早上 15 点到 4:00 打卡上班。
I'm moving.
我要搬家了。
I'm moving.
我要搬家了。
She's been at her plant for 44 years and has held just about every job there.
她在工厂工作了 44 年，几乎担任过工厂的所有工作。
Pulled out guts and lungs.
掏出了内脏和肺。
Ran the box machine.
跑盒子机。
Sawed chickens into nine-piece meals for KFC.
把鸡肉锯成九份给肯德基吃。
She befriended Fernando and Gregorio.
她与费尔南多和格雷戈里奥成为了朋友。
Before Greg, had you ever met a Latino before?
在格雷格之前，您以前见过拉丁裔吗？
No. He was really my first.
不，他确实是我的第一个。
I kind of-- I wasn't too sure.
我有点——我不太确定。
Basically, Fernando just sat down at Pat's lunch table one day, and they started talking tentatively.
基本上，费尔南多有一天刚在帕特的午餐桌上坐下，他们就开始试探性地交谈。
Here's Fernando speaking through an interpreter.
这是费尔南多通过翻译的发言。
It's easier for him than being interviewed in English.
对他来说这比用英语接受采访要容易。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And from then on, I sat with her every day.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 从那时起，我每天都和她坐在一起。
What would you guys talk about?
你们会聊什么？
How did you communicate?
你们是如何沟通的？
You're never really talking about work.
你从来没有真正谈论过工作。
They would ask me if I had a girlfriend or a wife.
他们会问我是否有女朋友或妻子。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Hey, Fernando, you got any kids?
[西班牙语] 翻译 嘿，费尔南多，你有孩子吗？
And I said, who knows?
我说，谁知道呢？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And then we started laughing together.
[说西班牙语] 翻译然后我们开始一起笑。
But then in a few years at this plant, things would get pretty tense and suspicious between the Mexican workers and the local workers, and things would get pretty ugly in town too.
但几年后，在这家工厂，墨西哥工人和当地工人之间的关系会变得非常紧张和可疑，镇上的情况也会变得非常丑陋。
But back then at the very beginning, newcomers were a novelty, not a threat.
但在一开始，新来者只是新鲜事物，而不是威胁。
It wasn't hard to get along.
相处并不难。
And we were just sitting there one day, and we were talking.
有一天我们就坐在那里聊天。
And he said, Patricia?
他说，帕特里夏？
I said, what?
我说，什么？
I said, what did you call me?
我说，你叫我什么？
He said, that's your name in Spanish.
他说，这是你的西班牙语名字。
My name is Patricia, but he said Pa-tree-cee-ah.
我叫帕特里夏，但他说帕-特里-西-啊。
And I thought, God, that sounds so pretty.
我想，天啊，这听起来真漂亮。
I've never liked my name.
我从来不喜欢我的名字。
But ever since he said it, I've liked my name.
但自从他这么说之后，我就喜欢上了我的名字。
(LAUGHING) Oh, really?
（笑）哦，真的吗？
Pat Yep.
帕特 是的。
It's cornball.
这是玉米丸。
I know.
我知道。
But he said Patricia.
但他说的是帕特里夏。
Patricia.
帕特里夏.
Patricia.
帕特里夏.
Ira Glass OK, so we went to Albertville because of something that a politician said, and the politician was Jeff Sessions, longtime Alabama senator, currently President Trump's Attorney General.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：好吧，我们去阿尔贝维尔是因为一位政治家说过的话，这位政治家是杰夫·塞申斯（Jeff Sessions），他是阿拉巴马州的长期参议员，现任特朗普总统的司法部长。
It's Sessions' views on immigration that have become administration policy.
塞申斯对移民的看法已成为政府政策。
The administration has proposed cutting the number of immigrants who come into this country each year in half.
政府提议将每年进入这个国家的移民人数减少一半。
And it especially targets the kind of workers who arrived in Albertville-- low-wage, unskilled workers who don't speak English.
它特别针对抵达阿尔贝维尔的工人——低工资、不会说英语的非技术工人。
That's something Sessions has been pushing for for over a decade, and it's not a coincidence that those are the workers most targeted.
这是塞申斯十多年来一直在推动的事情，而这些人是最有针对性的工人，这并非巧合。
A longtime ally of his in Washington on the immigration issue, Roy Beck, the founder of a group called NumbersUSA, has known Sessions since the '90s, says--
塞申斯在华盛顿的移民问题上的长期盟友、NumbersUSA 组织的创始人罗伊·贝克 (Roy Beck) 自上世纪 90 年代就认识塞申斯，他说——
I really doubt that he would have made immigration his signature issue if not for his experience with the poultry plants in Alabama.
我真的怀疑，如果不是因为他在阿拉巴马州家禽加工厂的经验，他是否会将移民作为他的标志性问题。
We wanted to see what Sessions saw, and we went looking for a poultry town that got a ton of immigrants.
我们想看看塞申斯看到了什么，于是我们去寻找一个有大量移民的家禽小镇。
And in Alabama, the poster town for that is Albertville.
在阿拉巴马州，阿尔贝维尔就是这方面的典型城镇。
Jeff Sessions has visited Albertville.
杰夫塞申斯访问了阿尔贝维尔。
He's spoken there.
他在那里讲过话。
Met up with the mayor and residents about the immigrants who arrived.
与市长和居民会面，了解抵达的移民。
And whatever it is that Sessions saw in those Alabama chicken plants, it sent him down the road to some very strong positions.
无论塞申斯在阿拉巴马州的养鸡场中看到了什么，这都让他走上了一些非常有利的位置。
He declined our request for an interview, but here he is on the floor of the Senate in 2007.
他拒绝了我们的采访请求，但 2007 年他却出现在参议院。
And big greedy businesses who hire illegal workers, and hiring those numbers by the tens or hundreds of thousands, will pull down the wages of American citizens.
贪婪的大企业雇佣非法工人，并雇佣数万或数十万人，这将拉低美国公民的工资。
Why would we do that?
我们为什么要这么做？
Why don't we take care of our American workers?
我们为什么不照顾我们的美国工人呢？
This is him in 2014.
这是2014年的他。
Jeff Sessions I talked to a business person recently about a factory that they have.
Jeff Sessions 我最近与一位商人谈论了他们拥有的一家工厂。
The work sounded pretty good to me, and he wants to bring in foreign workers to Alabama.
这项工作对我来说听起来不错，他想引进外国工人到阿拉巴马州。
Well, we've got unemployment in Alabama.
好吧，阿拉巴马州出现了失业问题。
We've got people on unemployment insurance.
我们有领取失业保险的人。
We've got people on welfare, and food stamps, and assistance that need to be taking those jobs.
我们有靠福利、食品券和援助来接受这些工作的人。
The former state senator, Scott Beason, who helped write Alabama's landmark 2011 self-deportation bill, once said, quote, "if you don't believe illegal immigration will destroy a community, go and check out parts of Alabama around Albertville." So was Albertville destroyed?
曾帮助起草阿拉巴马州具有里程碑意义的 2011 年自我驱逐法案的前州参议员斯科特·比森 (Scott Beason) 曾经说过，“如果你不相信非法移民会摧毁一个社区，那就去看看阿拉巴马州阿尔贝维尔周围的部分地区。”那么阿尔贝维尔被毁了吗？
Are Beason and Jeff Sessions right?
比森和杰夫塞申斯说得对吗？
To figure out the answer, we've interviewed more than 100 people, workers and managers at the poultry plants, politicians, law enforcement, documented and undocumented immigrants, kids of immigrants who grew up in town, older white residents who hated the changes.
为了找出答案，我们采访了 100 多人，其中包括家禽加工厂的工人和管理人员、政治家、执法人员、有证件和无证件的移民、在城镇长大的移民的孩子、讨厌这些变化的老年白人居民。
We also had an economist look at what happened to wages and to jobs.
我们还请一位经济学家研究了工资和就业的变化。
Another economist estimated what it cost the town to pay for schools and public services for the newcomers.
另一位经济学家估计了该镇为新移民支付学校费用和公共服务费用。
This is an issue where one side says that immigrants are an awful threat, stealing jobs, committing crimes, costing taxpayers.
在这个问题上，一方称移民是一种可怕的威胁，他们窃取工作、犯罪，让纳税人付出代价。
And the other side says that they're the exact opposite, the very source of our strength as a country, boosting the economy, adding diversity.
而另一方则说，它们恰恰相反，它们是我们作为一个国家的力量的源泉，促进了经济发展，增加了多样性。
And here at our show we thought for once, rather than hash over those familiar arguments, let's just go to a place where immigration has happened and talk in a factual way about what the hell actually occurs when lots of low-wage, low-skill workers arrive from another country.
在我们的节目中，我们想了一下，与其去讨论那些熟悉的论点，不如让我们去一个移民发生的地方，以事实的方式谈论当大量低工资、低技能工人从另一个国家来到这里时到底会发生什么。
Like, what's that actually do to everyone's lives?
就像，这对每个人的生活实际上有什么影响？
What we learned, from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, and I'm Ira Glass.
我们从芝加哥 WBEZ 学到的是《This American Life》，我是 Ira Glass。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
So on today's show, we're going to talk about the effect that the newcomers had on jobs.
所以在今天的节目中，我们将讨论新移民对就业的影响。
So all the action's going to be inside the chicken plants.
所以所有的动作都将在鸡舍内部进行。
Next, we're going to take up what happened in town-- politics, schools, taxes, crime, all that.
接下来，我们将讨论镇上发生的事情——政治、学校、税收、犯罪等等。
My co-host for both shows is going to be my coworker, Miki Meek.
我的同事米基·米克（Miki Meek）将担任这两个节目的联合主持人。
She and I have been traveling down to Albertville with our colleague, Lilly Sullivan, many trips over the last eight months.
我和她与我们的同事莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 一起前往阿尔贝维尔，在过去的八个月里进行了多次旅行。
Miki's the one who spent a lot of time talking to poultry workers.
米基花了很多时间与家禽工人交谈。
And Miki, the changes were a shock to longtime workers, right?
Miki，这些变化对长期工人来说是一个震惊，对吧？
So yeah, because the chicken plants were pretty much built for them.
是的，因为养鸡场几乎是为它们建造的。
This happened right after World War II, when the state of Alabama realized it needed a new economic strategy.
这发生在第二次世界大战之后，当时阿拉巴马州意识到它需要一项新的经济战略。
Cotton and corn weren't bringing in much for small farmers anymore.
棉花和玉米不再为小农户带来太多收入。
They wanted to keep people in jobs.
他们想让人们保住工作。
So they decided to get the state into poultry production.
因此他们决定让该州投入家禽生产。
They wanted to stick a plant up north to kill and process chickens, and they let different towns compete for it.
他们想在北方建一个工厂来宰杀和加工鸡，并让不同的城镇争夺它。
Albertville won and built the first plant near the middle of town, right next door to the high school.
阿尔贝维尔获胜并在市中心附近建造了第一家工厂，就在高中的隔壁。
Many more plants joined later.
后来有更多的工厂加入。
And now poultry companies are the biggest employers in town.
现在家禽公司是镇上最大的雇主。
Poultry is also the biggest agribusiness in Alabama, almost 10% of the state's economy, a billion chickens every year.
家禽业也是阿拉巴马州最大的农业综合企业，几乎占该州经济的 10%，每年饲养 10 亿只鸡。
Pat, who you heard earlier, she and her father were exactly the workers who these plants were built for.
帕特，你之前听说过，她和她的父亲正是这些工厂的建造对象。
Growing up, she worked in the cotton fields with her dad.
从小到大，她和父亲一起在棉田里干活。
Then he got a job in a plant, and she followed him in soon after.
后来他在一家工厂找到了一份工作，她也跟着他进去了。
She started as a giblet wrapper.
她一开始是做内脏包装纸的。
1973, August the 13th.
1973年8月13日。
Miki Meek How do you still remember the date?
Miki Meek 你还记得那个日期吗？
It's just easy.
这很简单。
[LAUGHTER] It's just August the 13, 1973.
[笑声] 这只是 1973 年 8 月 13 日。
And you got to remember, this was the early years.
你必须记住，这是早年。
OK, so what does that mean?
好吧，那这是什么意思呢？
Pat The early years, it was like a kind of unit.
帕特 早年，它就像一个单位。
Same 18 ladies on that wrapping table, older, hard-working people that come out of the fields.
包装桌上还有 18 位女士，都是从田里出来的、年长、勤劳的人。
It was family.
这是家人。
It was family.
这是家人。
Everybody knew the chicken plant was good pay, benefits, retirement, a decent job if you didn't finish high school.
每个人都知道养鸡厂的薪水、福利、退休金都不错，如果你没有完成高中学业的话，还有一份体面的工作。
And that's mostly who took the jobs.
而这些人大多是抢走了工作的人。
Pat dropped out after ninth grade, got married, and had two kids.
帕特九年级后辍学，结婚并生了两个孩子。
She took a job at the plant because--
她在工厂找到了一份工作，因为——
I wanted to buy a house.
我想买房子。
And we penny-pinched, penny-pinched till we had our down payment.
我们精打细算，精打细算，直到我们拿到了首付。
And so you got your house?
那么你得到了你的房子吗？
Pat And we got this house.
帕特 我们得到了这栋房子。
This same house that we live in right now.
我们现在住的就是同一所房子。
One unusual thing about these poultry plants-- by the late 1980s, there were long term workers at the plants, for sure.
这些家禽加工厂有一件不寻常的事情——到 20 世纪 80 年代末，工厂里肯定有长期工人。
But turnover was so high in the plants it's like you could always show up and just expect to get a job.
但工厂的流动率如此之高，就好像你总是可以出现并只是期望找到一份工作。
You fall on tough times, you need to pick up money for a family emergency, you knew the plant was there.
你陷入困境，需要为家庭紧急情况筹集资金，你知道工厂就在那里。
The plants were like a public utility in that way.
从这方面来说，这些工厂就像一个公用事业。
The head of HR at one of the plants, Tom Howell, said that when he started at Wayne Farms back in 1990-- this is before tons of Mexican workers showed up-- it was common to hire the same person five or six times in the same year.
其中一家工厂的人力资源主管汤姆·豪厄尔 (Tom Howell) 表示，当他 1990 年开始在韦恩农场工作时（当时还没有大量墨西哥工人出现），同一年雇用同一个人五六次是很常见的事情。
And the mirror test is what?
而镜子测试又是什么？
Tom Howell I'm surprised you don't know what the mirror test is.
汤姆·豪厄尔 我很惊讶你不知道镜子测试是什么。
That's pretty simple.
这很简单。
You just stick it under a person's nose, and if they fog that mirror up, you know they're breathing.
你只要把它放在一个人的鼻子下面，如果他们使镜子起雾，你就知道他们正在呼吸。
So you put them to work.
所以你让他们工作。
People joked that you could quit one plant in the morning and get hired by another plant in the afternoon.
人们开玩笑说，你可以早上离开一家工厂，下午就被另一家工厂录用。
And the first real change to that came in the mid-1990s.
第一次真正的改变发生在 20 世纪 90 年代中期。
By then, there was a rapid and steady stream of Mexican workers arriving, hundreds of them, mostly men, mostly here without their families.
那时，墨西哥工人源源不断地涌入，有数百人，其中大多数是男性，大多没有家人。
One of Pat's good friends is an especially helpful witness to what happened in their plant.
帕特的一位好朋友是他们工厂发生的事情的见证者，对他很有帮助。
This is a woman everybody calls Miss Martha-- wavy brown and gray hair and glasses.
这是一个大家都称她为玛莎小姐的女人——棕色和灰色的卷发，戴着眼镜。
She's been there since the '70s and works at the supply window, which means she talks to just about everyone.
她从 70 年代起就在那里，在供应窗口工作，这意味着她几乎与每个人交谈。
They all have to go to her window to pick up gloves and aprons.
他们都必须到她的窗口去取手套和围裙。
Oh, it's the little gossip window, I guess.
哦，我猜这是一个小八卦窗口。
People just want to come up and talk, and I'm a good listener.
人们只是想站出来说话，而我是一个很好的倾听者。
So I listen to them.
所以我听他们的。
She says she likes to play 20 Questions at the window.
她说她喜欢在窗边玩20个问题。
I made her tell me some of the questions.
我让她告诉我一些问题。
How many kids you got?
你有几个孩子？
How far do you work from here?
你工作的地方离这里有多远？
Your family live with you?
你的家人和你住在一起吗？
You know, little simple questions that you lead up.
你知道，你提出的一些简单的问题。
And then when you know them a little bit better, what can you move on to?
当你对他们有了更多的了解后，你可以继续做什么？
Got a girlfriend?
有女朋友了吗？
You married?
你结婚了吗？
How much money you got in the bank?
你在银行存了多少钱？
[LAUGHTER] And most of the time they'll tell me what they've done.
[笑声] 大多数时候他们会告诉我他们做了什么。
She says when the Latino workers showed up, they and the local workers were kind of just thrown together in this fast-paced industrial workplace and had to improvise without being able to speak the same language.
她说，当拉丁裔工人出现时，他们和当地工人就被挤在这个快节奏的工业工作场所中，不得不即兴发挥，而无法说相同的语言。
And it could be kind of nerve-wracking.
这可能有点令人伤脑筋。
Martha would train people on the saw line.
玛莎会在锯线上培训人们。
Doesn't that feel kind of dangerous to be training somebody on how to use a saw when you can't really--
当你不能真正地训练别人如何使用锯子时，这不是感觉有点危险吗？
Any time you trained somebody, yes, it was dangerous.
是的，任何时候你训练某人都是危险的。
That's the reason they only had certain people to train them, that had patience with them.
这就是为什么他们只有特定的人来训练他们，对他们有耐心。
I show him right here-- get the bird out.
我指给他看——把那只鸟放出来。
And I say-- [SLAPPING SOUND]
我说——[拍打声]
You'd pat it?
你会拍吗？
Miss Martha Into the saw, into the saw.
玛莎小姐 进入锯子，进入锯子。
But while they were working side by side there was this feeling of like, where'd these people come from?
但当他们并肩工作时，就有一种感觉，这些人从哪里来？
Why were they here all of a sudden and so many of them?
怎么突然就来了，而且还这么多？
It's kind of like an uneasy feeling.
有点像一种不安的感觉。
You're unsure.
你不确定。
You don't know whether to trust them or whether not to trust them.
你不知道是否应该相信他们或是否不应该相信他们。
And we didn't know whether they were legal, or they weren't legal or what.
我们不知道它们是否合法，或者不合法等等。
But there was a lot of them.
但他们有很多。
You know, there's not-- I mean, you can just tell by the way they act.
你知道，没有——我的意思是，你可以通过他们的行为方式来判断。
How's that?
怎么样？
Pat They have a guard up on them.
帕特 他们有警卫在监视着他们。
Like they don't want to get too close.
就像他们不想靠得太近一样。
They don't want to make conversation about certain things.
他们不想谈论某些事情。
And you have one that says I'm legal.
而且你有一个说我是合法的。
I'm legal.
我是合法的。
I'm legal.
我是合法的。
And she gets fired three times because of bad paperwork.
她还因为文书工作不好而被解雇了三次。
So I mean, how much would you ask?
所以我的意思是，你会问多少钱？
Was there a period where you were asking about it, and then you just--
是否有一段时间你问过这个问题，然后你就——
Some of them would would act like they don't know-- no comprende, you know?
他们中的一些人会表现得好像他们不知道一样——不理解，你知道吗？
That is when they don't want to tell you nothing.
那是他们什么都不想告诉你的时候。
There were a lot of things that just look really sketchy.
有很多东西看起来很粗略。
People would get fired and come back to work.
人们会被解雇并重返工作岗位。
And when they came back, they had a different name.
当他们回来时，他们有了不同的名字。
Pat remembers watching one woman fill out a form they had if you wanted to get your birthday off.
帕特记得看到一位女士填写了一张表格，如果你想过生日的话。
The woman was young, maybe early 30s.
那个女人很年轻，大概30岁出头。
And the birthday she put down had her 66 years old.
而她记下的生日是她66岁。
And we have girls over the years, they had their 15 coming out parties?
多年来我们有女孩，她们举办过 15 次出柜派对？
That's Martha again, and she's talking about quinceaneras, which you celebrate when you turn 15.
又是玛莎，她正在谈论成人礼，这是你 15 岁时庆祝的节日。
Well, they did, until one of them got in trouble and they fired her.
好吧，他们确实这样做了，直到其中一个人遇到麻烦并解雇了她。
But yeah, she was so proud of it.
但是，是的，她为此感到非常自豪。
So she started giving out invitations.
于是她开始发出邀请。
And then that's how they found out she was lying about her age.
然后他们就发现她谎报了自己的年龄。
How did you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
Miss Martha Well, I didn't like it.
玛莎小姐 好吧，我不喜欢它。
I didn't like it-- the way they was sneaking in over here.
我不喜欢他们偷偷溜进来的方式。
And the company knows it.
公司也知道这一点。
It seemed like the Mexicans were getting away with something.
墨西哥人似乎侥幸逃脱了惩罚。
They were cheating the system.
他们在欺骗系统。
They were not here legally, and the company was helping them do it.
他们不是合法来到这里的，公司正在帮助他们这样做。
Maybe the Mexicans weren't paying the same taxes.
也许墨西哥人没有缴纳同样的税。
Lots of workers believe that, though, it wasn't true.
但许多工人认为事实并非如此。
The companies were required to take them out automatically.
这些公司被要求自动将其剔除。
Regardless, longtime workers started to believe the same thing that Jeff Sessions came to believe, that these new immigrants were taking jobs that didn't belong to them.
不管怎样，长期工作的工人开始相信杰夫塞申斯所相信的同样的事情，即这些新移民正在从事不属于他们的工作。
A quiet resentment set in among the white workers at the plants.
工厂的白人工人中弥漫着一种无声的怨恨。
Everyone says you'd walk in and you could feel it.
每个人都说你走进去就能感觉到。
We'll hear the company's side of all this in the second half of the show.
我们将在节目的后半部分听到该公司对这一切的看法。
They have a totally different story to tell.
他们有一个完全不同的故事要讲。
But the icing on the cake for the workers was that the company seemed to like what was happening.
但对工人们来说，锦上添花的是公司似乎喜欢正在发生的事情。
In fact, maybe they were even behind it.
事实上，也许他们甚至是幕后黑手。
There's this thing I heard over and over from almost every local I talked to.
我几乎从每一个与我交谈过的当地人那里都一遍又一遍地听到这样的话。
Again, here's Pat and Martha.
帕特和玛莎又来了。
I don't know whether it was true or not, but we were told that there was a sign put up at the border-- work in Albertville, Alabama, poultry.
我不知道这是否属实，但我们被告知边境上挂了一个标志——阿拉巴马州阿尔伯特维尔的工作，家禽。
It had a 800 number that you could call.
它有一个你可以拨打的 800 号码。
Right as you go into Texas.
就在你进入德克萨斯州时。
Miki Meek So do you think that's true, or do you think that's fake?
Miki Meek 那么你认为这是真的还是假的？
Yes, it was true.
是的，这是真的。
Miki Meek Are you positive it was true?
Miki Meek 你确定这是真的吗？
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Miki Meek Where have you seen it?
米基·米克 你在哪里见过？
You saw a picture or what?
你看到了一张照片还是什么？
I seen a picture of it.
我看过它的一张照片。
Miki Meek I never could find a picture of it.
Miki Meek 我一直找不到它的照片。
Some locals said it was more than one billboard.
一些当地人说，这不仅仅是一个广告牌。
Some said it was in Texas.
有人说是在德克萨斯州。
One woman said she saw it in Tijuana.
一位女士说她在蒂华纳看到了它。
But always, the sign named exactly one town in the whole country-- Albertville, Alabama.
但这个标志总是准确地标出全国的一个城镇——阿拉巴马州阿尔贝维尔。
Did that make you feel betrayed by the company?
这是否让你感觉被公司背叛了？
Yes, it did.
是的，确实如此。
Yes, it did.
是的，确实如此。
Because I put years in here.
因为我在这里投入了多年。
And I have drawed chickens, hung chickens, dumped chickens, pushed dead chickens, sawed, shoveled eyes, stacked boxes, cleaned chicken poop off of coops, and everything else.
我画过鸡，挂过鸡，扔过鸡，推过死鸡，锯过，铲过眼睛，堆放过箱子，清理过鸡舍里的鸡粪，等等。
That is my plant.
那是我的植物。
Still to this day, that is my plant.
直到今天，那仍然是我的植物。
Who did you feel mad at?
你对谁感到生气？
Did you feel mad at the Latinos?
你对拉丁裔感到生气吗？
Were you mad at the company?
你对公司生气了吗？
Or was it--
或者是——
No, I wasn't mad at the Latinos.
不，我并不生拉丁美洲人的气。
I was mad at management.
我对管理很生气。
They were scheming, conniving, taking shortcuts to get them in.
他们用阴谋诡计、纵容、走捷径来让他们进来。
I'm mad-- I'm not mad.
我生气了——我没有生气。
I'm upset.
我很沮丧。
I'm hurt, really.
我很受伤，真的。
So was there a sign at the border?
那么边境有一个标志吗？
I talked to a bunch of the men who came to Albertville in that first wave of Mexican workers about whether that's what brought them to town.
我和第一波墨西哥工人中来到阿尔贝维尔的一群人聊过，这是否就是他们来到这座城市的原因。
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
Miki Meek Have you heard about this?
米基·米克 你听说过这个吗？
No. [SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter But I don't think it's true.
不。 [说西班牙语] 翻译 但我认为这不是真的。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Yeah, it's funny.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 是的，这很有趣。
So you were laughing.
所以你在笑。
What makes you laugh about that?
是什么让你对此发笑？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Because they're saying that Wayne Farms is putting these--
[说西班牙语] 翻译 因为他们说韦恩农场正在把这些——
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter --yeah, they're putting these signs up at the border, and why at the border?
[说西班牙语] 口译员 -- 是的，他们在边境张贴这些标志，为什么在边境？
So that Mexicans can see them and come get a job.
这样墨西哥人就可以看到他们并来找工作。
[LAUGHS] Miki Meek They literally never heard of this.
[笑] Miki Meek 他们真的从来没有听说过这个。
They worked side by side with the local workers for 20 years and had no idea that this was the story going around about them.
他们与当地工人并肩工作了20年，却不知道流传着这样的故事。
This is a story that every local we talked to had heard of.
这是我们采访过的每个当地人都听说过的故事。
So, no, they were not in the US because of a sign at the border.
所以，不，他们不在美国是因为边境有一个标志。
In fact, what the American workers didn't know about these guys is that lots of these men who arrived in the early '90s had been in this country for years.
事实上，美国工人们并不知道这些人，他们中的许多人在 20 世纪 90 年代初来到这个国家，已经在这个国家生活了很多年。
They were not newly arrived immigrants stealing American jobs.
他们并不是窃取美国就业机会的新移民。
They'd been here working and got amnesty when Ronald Reagan signed his big immigration reform in 1986.
他们一直在这里工作，并在 1986 年罗纳德·里根签署他的大规模移民改革法案时获得了特赦。
It legalized almost 3,000,000 people.
它使近 3,000,000 人合法化。
Some were seasonal workers in the tomato fields close to Albertville.
有些人是阿尔贝维尔附近番茄田的季节性工人。
Some were on farms in Oregon, California, Florida, Michigan.
其中一些位于俄勒冈州、加利福尼亚州、佛罗里达州、密歇根州的农场。
Some did construction work.
有些人从事建筑工作。
They made their way to town, and the chicken plant seemed like a good deal.
他们进城了，养鸡场看起来很划算。
This was work that would happen regardless of rain or snow, no off months, a reliable paycheck.
这是一份无论下雨还是下雪都会发生的工作，没有休息时间，还有可靠的薪水。
And even better, they could finally stay in one place, which meant they could also finally bring their families from Mexico.
更好的是，他们终于可以留在一个地方，这意味着他们也终于可以把家人从墨西哥带来。
This worker, we'll call Carlos, is pretty typical of that first wave.
这位工人，我们称之为卡洛斯，是第一波浪潮的典型代表。
He'd been in the US since the '70s, got amnesty under Reagan, had five kids and a wife in Guanajuato that he only got to see once a year.
他从 70 年代起就住在美国，在里根统治下获得了特赦，在瓜纳华托有五个孩子和一个妻子，而他每年只能见到一次。
He says he tried to stay connected to them by sometimes putting on his best clothes and going out with a camera.
他说，他有时会穿上最好的衣服，带着相机出去，试图与他们保持联系。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I would send them pictures, some pictures of, like, standing next to a car or a big house, and maybe they would think that I lived there.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 我会给他们发照片，一些照片，比如站在汽车或大房子旁边，也许他们会认为我住在那里。
No, no, no, no, no, no. [SPEAKING SPANISH]
不，不，不，不，不，不。 [说西班牙语]
You start missing the love of your child, especially when you're gone for a year, and you miss them growing up.
你开始想念孩子的爱，尤其是当你离开一年后，你想念他们的成长。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Miki Meek He was the foreman of an apple orchard in Michigan, a good job.
[说西班牙语] Miki Meek 他是密歇根州一个苹果园的工头，一份不错的工作。
But in Albertville, his wife could work with him at the chicken plant, double their income.
但在阿尔贝维尔，他的妻子可以和他一起在养鸡厂工作，使他们的收入翻倍。
They could send their kids to a much better school than back home.
他们可以把孩子送到一所比家里更好的学校。
And so after the first wave of men moved to town, word spread about these jobs, and the population started to shift from people who were in the country legally to lots of workers and family members who were not, who moved here directly from Mexico, arriving into town in packed cars and vans.
因此，在第一批男人搬到城镇后，有关这些工作的消息就传开了，人口开始从合法居住在该国的人转向许多非法居留的工人和家庭成员，他们直接从墨西哥搬到这里，乘坐挤满了汽车和货车来到城镇。
Carlos says he brought his family legally but also told lots of people back home.
卡洛斯说，他合法地带着家人来了，但也告诉了家里的很多人。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter So you start spreading the word.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 所以你开始传播信息。
I'll tell, like, maybe two, three other Mexicans.
我会告诉另外两三个墨西哥人。
I'll say, hey, you should come here, because there is lots and lots of work.
我会说，嘿，你应该来这里，因为有很多很多的工作。
They needed the work, because Mexico was in economic crisis.
他们需要这份工作，因为墨西哥正处于经济危机中。
The currency crashed in 1994.
1994年货币崩溃。
NAFTA knocked lots of Mexicans out of work and hit small farmers hard, and a surge of people came to the United States.
北美自由贸易协定使大量墨西哥人失业，并对小农造成沉重打击，大批人涌入美国。
The number of undocumented people here more than tripled from 3.5 million in 1990 to over 11 million in 2010.
这里的无证人口数量增加了两倍多，从 1990 年的 350 万增加到 2010 年的 1100 万以上。
And large numbers were arriving in the southeast US for the first time.
大批人首次抵达美国东南部。
Carlos guessed that maybe 3,000 came to Albertville from his hometown at Guanajuato.
卡洛斯猜测，大约有 3,000 人从他的家乡瓜纳华托来到阿尔贝维尔。
Lots of people told us they liked how small Albertville was.
很多人告诉我们，他们喜欢阿尔贝维尔的小规模。
That it wasn't a big city.
那不是一个大城市。
It was pretty.
很漂亮。
It felt safe.
感觉很安全。
It reminded them of home.
这让他们想起了家。
So when American workers in the Albertville plants looked around and wondered why in the world all these newcomers were suddenly showing up in their little town, this was the thing they didn't realize-- that an historic migration was under way, mostly from Mexico.
因此，当阿尔贝维尔工厂的美国工人环顾四周，想知道为什么世界上所有这些新移民突然出现在他们的小镇上时，他们没有意识到——一场历史性的移民正在进行，其中大部分来自墨西哥。
The newcomers ended up in poultry plants all across the South-- Arkansas, Mississippi, Georgia, the Carolinas.
这些新来者最终进入了整个南方的家禽加工厂——阿肯色州、密西西比州、佐治亚州、卡罗来纳州。
Because coincidentally, the poultry business was going through its own massive changes.
因为巧合的是，家禽业正在经历巨大的变化。
It was desperate for employees.
它对员工感到绝望。
The poultry business was booming in the early '90s like it never had before.
九十年代初，家禽业空前繁荣。
The industry had figured out how to make chickens grow to full size more cheaply in a much shorter period of time.
该行业已经找到了如何让鸡在更短的时间内以更低的成本长到成年的尺寸。
And they were rebranding chicken from the special meal that you'd have once a week to total ubiquity, a healthy, convenient alternative to red meat.
他们正在将鸡肉从每周吃一次的特殊膳食重塑为无处不在的鸡肉，一种健康、方便的红肉替代品。
[MUSIC - "CHICKEN TONIGHT"] This Ragu commercial haunts the dreams of a generation of TV watchers.
[音乐 - “今晚鸡肉”] 这则 Ragu 广告萦绕着一代电视观众的梦想。
There's also the less healthy fast food version of chicken.
还有不太健康的快餐版鸡肉。
Tyson started production of the McNugget for McDonald's, and soon chicken was everywhere.
泰森开始为麦当劳生产麦乐鸡，很快鸡肉就随处可见。
(SINGING) Well, they got chicken at Taco Bell.
（唱歌）嗯，他们在塔可钟买了鸡肉。
That's right, 'cause it's brand new.
没错，因为它是全新的。
That's Little Richard for Taco Bell.
那是塔可钟的小理查德。
Homer Simpson advertised Church's Chicken.
荷马·辛普森 (Homer Simpson) 为 Church's Chicken 做广告。
Ooh, chicken!
哦，鸡！
Must eat!
一定要吃！
Need money, any means necessary!
缺钱，不择手段！
The price dropped dramatically.
价格急剧下降。
People went from eating about 28 pounds of chicken a year in 1960 to almost 90 pounds per person per year today.
人们从 1960 年每人每年吃约 28 磅鸡肉增加到今天的每人每年约 90 磅。
Albertville's plants added the lines that took whole chickens and cut them up into the options you now see in the grocery store-- wings, tenders, boneless and skinless thighs and breasts.
阿尔贝维尔的工厂增加了将整只鸡切成你现在在杂货店看到的选项的生产线——鸡翅、嫩肉、去骨去皮的大腿和鸡胸肉。
Their international market exploded, shipping dark meats, organs, and feet to Russia and China.
他们的国际市场呈爆炸式增长，将黑肉、内脏和脚运往俄罗斯和中国。
And that's the engine that was pulling in all these new workers to Albertville.
这就是吸引所有这些新工人来到阿尔贝维尔的引擎。
The plant that's now Tyson Foods nearly quadrupled, from 250 workers to more than 900.
现在泰森食品公司 (Tyson Foods) 的工厂规模几乎翻了两番，从 250 名工人增加到 900 多名工人。
Wayne Farms added around another 200 jobs.
Wayne Farms 又增加了约 200 个工作岗位。
If there hadn't been a flood of new foreign workers to take those jobs, the companies might have had to pay more to attract employees to the plants.
如果没有大量新的外国工人来接替这些工作，这些公司可能不得不支付更多费用来吸引员工到工厂工作。
But that was not a choice they ever had to make.
但这不是他们必须做出的选择。
For the people who came with no papers, all the stuff that seemed so underhanded and devious to their American coworkers, it was surprisingly easy to pull off.
对于那些没有证件的人来说，所有这些在他们的美国同事看来都是卑鄙和狡诈的事情，却出奇地容易实现。
This guy Oscar arrived in Albertville from Guanajuato in 1995, right before he turned 16, to join his father in the chicken plants.
奥斯卡这个家伙于 1995 年从瓜纳华托来到阿尔贝维尔，当时他还没有 16 岁，和他父亲一起经营养鸡场。
Legal age to work in a plant was 18, but that wasn't an obstacle.
在工厂工作的法定年龄是 18 岁，但这并不是一个障碍。
He gave me a card, like ID.
他给了我一张卡，就像身份证一样。
Miki Meek Did he find you like a fake ID?
米基·米克 他是不是像假身份证一样找到了你？
Or what did you--
或者你做了什么——
Yeah.
是的。
He found me a fake ID with my-- I think it was not even my face.
他给我找到了一张假身份证，上面有我的——我想那甚至不是我的脸。
It wasn't even your face?
连脸都不是你的吗？
Oscar No. The guy was older than me.
奥斯卡 不，那家伙比我大。
And did you think, this is not going to work?
您是否认为这行不通？
Yeah.
是的。
Because, I mean, I was 16.
因为，我的意思是，我当时16岁。
And when I see the pictures, I was like, oh, my god.
当我看到这些照片时，我就想，哦，天啊。
The guy in the ID was probably 25, 26.
身份证上的那个人大概25、26岁。
His name was Jose Lopez.
他的名字叫何塞·洛佩兹。
And from then on, that's the name that Oscar went by.
从那时起，奥斯卡就用这个名字了。
They call me Joe.
他们叫我乔。
Miki Meek Do you kind of think of yourself as Joe?
Miki Meek 你认为自己是 Joe 吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Imagine, working for 20 years-- I think it's 19, 20 years-- with that name.
想象一下，用这个名字工作了 20 年——我想是 19、20 年。
So it's like, I guess that's my nickname forever, I guess.
所以就像，我想这就是我永远的昵称。
It's like a stage name, like an actor, but for the chicken plant.
它就像一个艺名，就像一个演员，但对于鸡植物来说。
Yeah.
是的。
Miki Meek How much did your American coworkers ask you about your legal status?
米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 您的美国同事有多少次询问过您的法律身份？
A bunch.
一堆。
Miki Meek So how would they ask it?
Miki Meek 那么他们会怎么问呢？
What would they say?
他们会说什么？
What's your real name?
你的真名是什么？
Miki Meek What would you say?
米基·米克 你会说什么？
I would say, Jose.
我会说，何塞。
They said, no, that's not.
他们说，不，不是这样。
I heard somebody call you another name.
我听到有人叫你另一个名字。
I tell him, that was my nickname.
我告诉他，那是我的昵称。
Could you tell-- did that make them mad?
你能看出——这让他们生气了吗？
Or what did they think about that?
或者他们对此有何看法？
They say that Mexicans go back to Mexico.
他们说墨西哥人回到墨西哥。
Is there any part of that you're like, oh, it's understandable?
有没有什么部分你会觉得，哦，这是可以理解的？
Well, I don't really know.
嗯，我真的不知道。
It's hard.
这很难。
When you don't have no more choice.
当你别无选择的时候。
I mean, you have to.
我的意思是，你必须这样做。
It was really striking talking to them-- how the arrival of these Latino workers blew the minds of the local workers, turned their world upside down.
与他们交谈确实令人震惊——这些拉丁裔工人的到来如何震撼了当地工人的思想，颠覆了他们的世界。
But the Mexican workers didn't have any of that.
但墨西哥工人却没有这些。
They didn't have a lot of emotions about their white coworkers, didn't spend a lot of time thinking or worrying about them.
他们对白人同事没有太多感情，也没有花很多时间思考或担心他们。
If the white workers didn't like them, whatever.
如果白人工人不喜欢他们，那也没关系。
They'd been through worse.
他们经历过更糟糕的事情。
Again, here's Fernando-- the guy who called Pat, Patricia.
再次，这是费尔南多——那个给帕特打电话的人，帕特里夏。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter You notice that people are staring at you, because you're something strange.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 您注意到人们在盯着您看，因为您很奇怪。
And they're thinking, where do these people come from?
他们在想，这些人从哪里来？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And they would just kind of glance at you to the side, like they don't want you there.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 他们只是向旁边看了你一眼，就好像他们不希望你在那里一样。
How frustrating is that?
这有多令人沮丧？
Fernando Martinez [SPEAKING SPANISH]
费尔南多·马丁内斯 [西班牙语]
You don't really feel bad, because you get used to it.
其实你并不觉得难过，因为你已经习惯了。
This guy named Claudio said he started trying to learn English, because he sensed his American coworkers were talking about him.
这个名叫克劳迪奥的人说，他开始尝试学习英语，因为他感觉到他的美国同事正在谈论他。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And I would think, well, what are they saying?
[说西班牙语] 口译员 我会想，好吧，他们在说什么？
And so I'd come back home, and I would ask my daughter.
所以我回到家，我会问我的女儿。
So what they were saying were swear words in English.
所以他们说的是英语脏话。
He says his daughter was in elementary school.
他说他的女儿正在上小学。
Quick warning, this story has a curse word we've unbeeped here on the podcast.
快速警告，这个故事有一个咒语，我们在播客上没有发出提示音。
Anyway, one day, one of his American coworkers got mad at the way he was hanging live birds on the conveyor belt.
不管怎样，有一天，他的一位美国同事对他将活鸟挂在传送带上的方式感到愤怒。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter He was saying that I was skipping a hanger, and then he would say to me--
[说西班牙语] 翻译 他说我跳过了衣架，然后他会对我说——
Hey, motherfucker!
嘿，混蛋！
Why are you skipping this?
你为什么要跳过这个？
You know?
你知道？
Why do Mexicans come here if they're not going to work?
如果墨西哥人不去工作，为什么还要来这里？
So then you come home and you ask your daughter, what is motherfucker?
然后你回到家问你的女儿，什么是混蛋？
Right.
正确的。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter She would write down for me how it's spelled and then how it's said.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 她会为我写下它的拼写方式以及表达方式。
And I would have it on a piece of paper that I would carry with me.
我会把它写在一张纸上并随身携带。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter She would say, hey, dad, just use the same word with them.
[说西班牙语] 翻译她会说，嘿，爸爸，对他们使用同一个词即可。
Again, here's Fernando.
费尔南多又来了。
Fernando Martinez [SPEAKING SPANISH]
费尔南多·马丁内斯 [西班牙语]
A lot of times, they talk about you, and they'd use that word that they have-- wetbackers-- to describe you.
很多时候，他们谈论你时，会用他们的词——湿背者——来形容你。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter One time, I got mad and hit somebody in the face with a chicken, like this.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 有一次，我生气了，用一只鸡打了某人的脸，就像这样。
He didn't do anything.
他什么也没做。
He just kind of walked off.
他就这样走开了。
And this was the guy who ran that line.
这就是负责那条线的人。
You hit him with a chicken?
你用鸡打他吗？
Did that feel good to do that?
这样做感觉好吗？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Well, you don't exactly feel good, but you feel a little bit calmer because that gets the person to shut up.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 嗯，你感觉不太好，但你感觉平静了一点，因为这会让对方闭嘴。
He says he could get away with talking back because he had papers.
他说他可以顶嘴，因为他有证件。
There's no official estimate of how much of Albertville's Latino population was undocumented back then or is undocumented now.
目前还没有官方估计阿尔贝维尔的拉丁裔人口中有多少是无证人口，或者现在是无证人口。
But people who know the community best-- who work as advocates and deal with tons of families-- say it's more than half undocumented.
但最了解该社区的人——他们担任倡导者并与大量家庭打交道——表示该社区一半以上没有证件。
And maybe a lot more than half.
也许超过一半。
The first waves were from Mexico.
第一波浪潮来自墨西哥。
And then later, people from Guatemala and elsewhere.
后来，来自危地马拉和其他地方的人。
Lots of local workers said it wasn't long before management seemed to prefer the new Latino workers-- thought they were better workers.
许多当地工人表示，不久之后，管理层似乎更喜欢新的拉丁裔工人——认为他们是更好的工人。
They picked up double shifts, didn't want to call attention to themselves or cause any problems.
他们轮班两班，不想引起别人的注意或引起任何问题。
They didn't want to do anything that could make them lose their jobs-- didn't complain, didn't make a big deal about injuries.
他们不想做任何可能让他们失业的事情——没有抱怨，也没有对伤病小题大做。
This is true even for the documented workers.
即使对于有证件的工人来说也是如此。
The government calls meat and poultry processing one of the most hazardous industries in the country.
政府称肉类和家禽加工是该国最危险的行业之一。
People get cut from working with sharp knives and scissors, they develop carpal tunnel syndrome from all the repetitive motion on the line.
人们因使用锋利的刀和剪刀工作而受到伤害，他们因生产线上的所有重复动作而患上腕管综合症。
Carlos said that when he and his wife would get swollen hands from working on the line, he'd press on his fingers and blood and yellow puss would come out, chicken bones would get stuck under his fingernails, but he would just keep working.
卡洛斯说，当他和妻子在生产线上工作时双手肿胀时，他会压住手指，血和黄色的脓就会流出来，鸡骨头会卡在指甲下，但他会继续工作。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I had to take out the guts with my two hands.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 我不得不用两只手取出内脏。
And I really wanted to leave, but I said, no, I have to do this work, this hard work.
我真的很想离开，但我说，不，我必须做这份工作，这份艰苦的工作。
So when I talk to American workers, they say, I get mad when they say Mexicans work harder than white people.
因此，当我与美国工人交谈时，他们说，当他们说墨西哥人比白人工作更努力时，我很生气。
And they're like, it's not true.
他们说，这不是真的。
It's just that they don't speak up for their rights.
只是他们不为自己的权利发声。
And I was wondering what you think about that.
我想知道你对此有何看法。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter Yeah.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 是的。
We don't really know our rights.
我们并不真正了解我们的权利。
So we don't really know how to defend our rights in the work place.
所以我们真的不知道如何在工作场所捍卫我们的权利。
So, yeah, that's kind of a reason.
所以，是的，这就是一个原因。
But it's also because we have these families that are suffering that depend on us.
但这也是因为我们有这些依赖我们的家庭正在遭受苦难。
I mean, they have us working from the time that we were kids, eight years old.
我的意思是，他们从我们八岁的时候起就让我们工作。
Here, that doesn't really exist.
在这里，那实际上并不存在。
So we do work harder.
所以我们确实更加努力。
Carlos agrees with the local workers-- that the companies prefer Latinos.
卡洛斯同意当地工人的观点——公司更喜欢拉丁裔。
He'd see it play out at his plant.
他会在他的工厂看到这一切的发生。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter With my boss, I'll be talking to him, and like five workers will come along, and two of them will be Hispanic.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 我将和我的老板交谈，大约有五名工人会过来，其中两名是西班牙裔。
And my boss will say to me, hey, give me those two, because they're going to have better work ethic, whereas the other people might not last as long.
我的老板会对我说，嘿，给我这两个人，因为他们会有更好的职业道德，而其他人可能不会坚持那么久。
They might leave.
他们可能会离开。
But the plant loses money when that happens.
但当这种情况发生时，工厂就会亏损。
And so my boss will say, those two-- those two are going to last.
所以我的老板会说，那两个——那两个将会持续下去。
And we felt bad when the supervisors turned on us.
当主管向我们发起攻击时，我们感觉很糟糕。
This worker asked that we don't use his name.
这位工人要求我们不要使用他的名字。
I think they felt that the Hispanics was more over-- above us.
我认为他们觉得西班牙裔比我们更优秀。
And I didn't see no difference.
而且我没看出有什么区别。
I mean, I thought, well, I can do just as much as this guy can, you know?
我的意思是，我想，好吧，我能做的和这个人一样多，你知道吗？
But they didn't see that in us.
但他们没有在我们身上看到这一点。
They saw it in them.
他们在他们身上看到了这一点。
And after that, it seemed like it just changed-- like they turned on us and forgot about us.
在那之后，情况似乎发生了变化——就像他们开始攻击我们并忘记了我们一样。
We felt forgotten.
我们感到被遗忘了。
We just felt like our jobs was in jeopardy.
我们只是觉得我们的工作处于危险之中。
And from the time I clock in until the time I clock out, I was worried about what's going to happen to my future here at the chicken plant.
从我上班到下班，我一直担心我在养鸡厂的未来会发生什么。
He was one of a handful of black workers at his plant.
他是工厂里少数黑人工人之一。
When Latino workers came in, he says it was the first time he felt unified with his white coworkers-- both saw themselves as the American workers.
当拉丁裔工人进来时，他说这是他第一次感受到与白人同事的团结——他们都认为自己是美国工人。
Again, here's Pat.
再说一次，这是帕特。
It made us all think that we were just going to be pushed out the door, and they were going to bring all Hispanics in to replace us.
这让我们所有人都认为我们将被赶出家门，他们将引进所有西班牙裔来取代我们。
Especially as older hands, you have a fear, all of a sudden, just slap you.
尤其是作为老手，你有一种恐惧，突然间，就打你一巴掌。
Coming up, the government steps in on the side of the local workers.
接下来，政府会站在当地工人一边。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This American Life.
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, what actually happens when immigrants arrive in large numbers?
今天我们的节目中，当大量移民到来时，到底会发生什么？
We're telling the story of Albertville, Alabama, which went from being a nearly all-white, Southern town to a town that's now lots of immigrants-- more than half of them undocumented, best as we can tell.
我们正在讲述阿拉巴马州阿尔贝维尔的故事，它从一个几乎全是白人的南方小镇变成了一个现在有很多移民的小镇——据我们所知，其中一半以上没有证件。
My co-host for the hour is Miki Meek.
我这一小时的共同主持人是米基·米克 (Miki Meek)。
And at this point in our story, the longtime workers in the chicken plants have this feeling that there's right, and there's wrong, and people are breaking the law-- obviously, here illegally.
在我们故事的这一点上，养鸡厂的长期工人有这样的感觉：有对，有错，人们正在违法——显然，在这里是非法的。
And everybody's acting like this is just fine, and normal, and what the hell?
每个人的表现都很好，很正常，但到底是什么？
And the companies seem to be not just fine with this but probably encouraging it.
这些公司似乎不仅对此表示满意，而且可能还鼓励这样做。
And some plants, evidence came in 1995, of just how much the companies knew and how far they'd go to keep undocumented workers in the plants.
对于一些工厂，证据于 1995 年出现，表明这些公司了解多少，以及他们会采取何种措施将无证工人留在工厂。
That year, the government decided to take aggressive action against the wave of undocumented Mexican workers that were moving into poultry plants, carpet factories, and hotel jobs all across the South.
那一年，政府决定采取积极行动，打击大批无证墨西哥工人涌入南部各地的家禽厂、地毯厂和酒店工作。
They launched a series of raids, called Operation SouthPAW.
他们发起了一系列袭击，称为“南爪行动”。
PAW was short for Protecting American Workers.
PAW 是“保护美国工人”的缩写。
In Washington today, the Immigration Service has announced a very bold move to locate and deport illegal aliens.
今天在华盛顿，移民局宣布了一项非常大胆的举措，以寻找并驱逐非法外国人。
Federal agents have actually gone into factories and farm fields to locate illegal immigrants.
联邦特工实际上已经进入工厂和农田寻找非法移民。
And then they've gone one step further--
然后他们更进一步——
The goal was to create job openings for American workers by arresting lots of people at work sites.
其目标是通过在工作场所逮捕大量人员来为美国工人创造就业机会。
A big show of force with over 100 INS and Border Patrol agents.
超过 100 名移民局和边境巡逻人员的大规模武力展示。
They rode into Albertville with empty buses to haul people off to deportation.
他们乘坐空巴士进入阿尔贝维尔，将人们送往驱逐出境。
At the Gold Kist plant outside of town, workers cheered when they arrived.
在城外的 Gold Kist 工厂，工人们到达时欢呼雀跃。
But at Hudson Foods, management had worked out a system to deal with the raids.
但在哈德逊食品公司，管理层已经制定了一套应对突袭的系统。
I talked to Mark Ginzo.
我和马克·金佐谈过。
He worked at Hudson Foods as a bilingual chaplain.
他在哈德逊食品公司担任双语牧师。
This is something you see at some chicken plants around the south-- chaplains to minister to the workers.
这就是你在南方一些养鸡场看到的东西——牧师为工人服务。
Mark remembers they were raided a few times.
马克记得他们遭到过几次袭击。
And they'd know in advance if immigration was coming, because agents had to get a warrant first.
他们会提前知道移民是否到来，因为特工必须首先获得搜查令。
Usually it was somebody outside who would-- or they would look through the windows and see them coming in and start screaming, la migra!
通常是外面有人——或者他们会透过窗户看到他们进来，然后开始尖叫，la migra！
La migra!
拉米格拉！
And la migra means?
la migra 的意思是？
Mark Ginzo Immigration.
马克·金佐移民。
Then what happens in the plant?
那么工厂里会发生什么呢？
What do you see happen?
你看到会发生什么？
Oh, you see people running all over the place-- you know, the Mexicans, of course.
哦，你看到人们到处乱跑——你知道，当然是墨西哥人。
But they knew-- they knew where to go.
但他们知道——他们知道该去哪里。
They knew all the hiding places in the place.
他们知道这个地方所有的藏身之处。
And where were those places in the plant?
工厂里的那些地方在哪里？
There was one particular room-- oh, my god.
有一个特别的房间——哦，天啊。
I felt so bad, because it was very cold.
我感觉很糟糕，因为天气很冷。
It was like freezing in there.
那里就像冻结了一样。
Was it the freezer?
是冰箱吗？
Mark Ginzo Yeah.
马克·金佐 是的。
And they would put 15 or 20 of them in there and lock the door.
他们会把 15 或 20 个人放在那里，然后锁上门。
And what is it that you're laughing about?
你在笑什么？
What's making you laugh?
是什么让你发笑？
Well, it was funny because management was the one that cooperated to hide them.
嗯，这很有趣，因为管理层是合作隐藏它们的人。
Yeah.
是的。
Miki Meek How?
米基·米克 怎么样？
They would show people?
他们会向人们展示？
Yeah.
是的。
They would show people where the room-- and some would even hide in some of the management offices.
他们会向人们展示房间的位置——有些人甚至会躲在一些管理办公室里。
Under the desks and closets-- anywhere we could hide them.
桌子和壁橱下面——任何我们可以把它们藏起来的地方。
Wow.
哇。
Mark Ginzo I usually had four or five inside my office.
马克·金佐（Mark Ginzo） 我的办公室里通常有四五个人。
This company, Hudson Foods, doesn't exist anymore.
这家公司，哈德森食品公司，已经不存在了。
It was bought out.
它被买断了。
So we couldn't ask them to comment.
所以我们不能要求他们发表评论。
But the INS agent who led the raid in Albertville, Bart Szafnicki, told me it was common for companies and all sorts of industries to hide workers.
但领导阿尔贝维尔突袭行动的移民局特工巴特·萨夫尼基 (Bart Szafnicki) 告诉我，公司和各行各业隐藏工人的情况很常见。
Sometimes it got ridiculous.
有时它变得荒谬。
He remembers a manager insisting he didn't have any undocumented workers, and then a guy fell through the ceiling and landed on his desk.
他记得一位经理坚称他没有任何无证工人，然后一个人从天花板上掉下来，落在他的桌子上。
Bart pointed out, there's never been a serious crack down on employers.
巴特指出，从来没有对雇主进行过严厉的打击。
These raids were short lived.
这些袭击是短暂的。
The fines were low.
罚款很低。
The chances of getting caught were small.
被抓住的机会很小。
Bart found it frustrating.
巴特觉得这很令人沮丧。
Congress never had the political will to go after the companies that hire undocumented workers.
国会从来没有政治意愿去追究雇用无证工人的公司。
There are congressmen who talk tough on immigration, but when INS went after work sites in their districts, they told them to back off.
有些国会议员在移民问题上言辞强硬，但当移民局搜查他们所在选区的工作地点时，他们却让他们退后。
Politically, it's always been easier to scapegoat the people who crossed the border than to go after employers.
从政治上来说，为越境者寻找替罪羊总是比追捕雇主更容易。
Martha and Pat's plant never got raided for whatever reason.
无论出于何种原因，玛莎和帕特的工厂从未遭到袭击。
But Martha told me some of their American coworkers took things into their own hands.
但玛莎告诉我，他们的一些美国同事把事情掌握在自己手中。
I was on second shift.
我当时值二班。
And we was sitting there one night.
一晚我们就坐在那里。
And they said, immigration is here.
他们说，移民就在这里。
And that break room cleared out in this, shoom.
休息室就这样清空了，嘭。
So was immigration there or not really there?
那么移民到底是存在还是不存在呢？
No, they wasn't there.
不，他们不在那里。
Miki Meek So were they just messing with them to be mean?
米基·米克（Miki Meek） 那么他们只是为了表现得很卑鄙而捉弄他们吗？
Yeah.
是的。
It was just rumors.
那只是谣言。
And you know who I'm talking about-- Wayne Gabel.
你知道我在说谁——韦恩·加贝尔。
Wayne Gable-- a maintenance worker now retired.
韦恩·盖博——一名现已退休的维修工。
He wasn't shy talking about this.
他并不羞于谈论这件事。
Somebody started the rumor out in the plant.
有人在工厂里散布谣言。
Now, was that you?
现在，是你吗？
Wayne Gable Most likely.
韦恩·盖博 最有可能。
It was you.
是你。
Wayne Gable Yeah.
韦恩·盖博 是的。
It was me.
是我。
Why did you do that?
你为什么这么做？
Wayne Gable To see what would happen.
韦恩·盖博 看看会发生什么。
It's kind of mean, right?
这有点卑鄙，对吧？
Wayne Gable No, it was funny.
韦恩·盖博不，这很有趣。
The Hispanic people move fast when they have to, especially when they think immigration's coming.
西班牙裔人在必要时会迅速采取行动，尤其是当他们认为移民即将到来时。
They was running on top of the building.
他们在大楼顶上奔跑。
They was running out the gate at the back of the plant.
他们正跑出工厂后面的大门。
And by the time they finally got everybody settled down and told them it wasn't happening and all that, we done lost 20.
当他们最终让每个人都安定下来并告诉他们这一切没有发生时，我们已经输了 20 场了。
People?
人？
Miss Martha That run, yeah.
玛莎小姐 那跑了，是的。
Because they was scared they was going to caught.
因为他们害怕自己会被抓住。
Did they come back?
他们回来了吗？
Miss Martha No, no, no. They didn't come back, because they was afraid that--
玛莎小姐 不，不，不。他们没有回来，因为他们害怕——
No. Miki Meek Like 20 people were gone-- just gone?
不，Miki Meek 好像有 20 个人走了——就这样走了？
Right.
正确的。
And it's all because somebody told a lie.
而这一切都是因为有人说了谎。
But we did get the three or four that was hiding on top of the roof.
但我们确实找到了藏在屋顶上的三四个。
They did come back down.
他们确实回来了。
They let them go back on the line.
他们让他们重新上线。
No. Because the company kept saying they was there legally, and I knew better.
不。因为公司一直说他们在那里是合法的，而且我更清楚。
I knew the company was lying.
我知道公司在撒谎。
So I wanted to find out.
所以我想找出答案。
And did you get in trouble?
你遇到麻烦了吗？
Wayne Gable Well, they carried me to the office, and we had a little conversation.
韦恩·盖博 好吧，他们把我带到办公室，我们聊了一会儿。
They threatened me, told me not do that no more, that they would fire me.
他们威胁我，告诉我不要再这样做了，他们会解雇我。
And I told them-- I says, yeah?
我告诉他们——我说，是吗？
And I'll have immigration in here, and I'll have a lawsuit on you when you do-- for me telling the truth.
我会在这里安排移民，当你这么做时我会对你提起诉讼——因为我说的是实话。
Because y'all are lying anyway.
因为无论如何你们都在撒谎。
And that proved my point.
这证明了我的观点。
And that proved the point to everybody in that plant.
这向工厂里的每个人证明了这一点。
They was all there illegally.
他们都是非法滞留的。
HR people who worked around Albertville at Tyson Foods, Wayne Farms, and Gold Kist, back in the mid '90s, told us that, sure, they suspected people were working under false papers.
早在 20 世纪 90 年代中期，曾在阿尔贝维尔附近的泰森食品公司、韦恩农场和 Gold Kist 工作过的人力资源人员告诉我们，他们确实怀疑员工使用假证件工作。
But they say, what could they do?
但他们说，他们能做什么？
Once an applicant presented documents proving they could work, the law limited them from probing and digging beyond that.
一旦申请人提交了证明他们可以工作的文件，法律就会限制他们进行进一步的探索和挖掘。
Bruce Williams worked in HR at Wayne Farms back in the '90s.
布鲁斯·威廉姆斯 (Bruce Williams) 早在 90 年代就在韦恩农场 (Wayne Farms) 从事人力资源工作。
And the law will tell you, you can go no further.
法律会告诉你，你不能再继续了。
You can't just set him in the chair and put the bright light on them-- you know, where did you get these papers?
你不能把他放在椅子上，然后把强光放在他们身上——你知道，你从哪里得到这些文件的？
Where were you born?
你在哪里出世？
What color house was it?
那是什么颜色的房子？
You can't do that stuff unless you do it to every single individual you hire.
除非你对你雇用的每个人都这样做，否则你无法做到这一点。
This is true.
这是真实的。
It goes back to President Reagan's 1986 Amnesty Law.
这可以追溯到里根总统 1986 年的特赦法。
That's the first time it became a crime in this country to knowingly hire somebody who should not be here.
这是这个国家第一次将故意雇用不应该在这里的人定为犯罪行为。
The key word in the law is knowingly.
法律中的关键词是“知情”。
If a company knowingly hired somebody they shouldn't, that's when they got in trouble.
如果一家公司故意雇用了不该雇用的人，那么他们就会遇到麻烦。
But the law also said that if somebody's documents look legitimate, if they, quote, "appear to be genuine on their face, the employer must accept them and cannot question them or ask for more documentation." These are the rules that we still live under today.
但法律还规定，如果某人的文件看起来合法，如果他们“表面上看起来是真实的，雇主必须接受他们，并且不能质疑他们或要求提供更多文件。”这些是我们今天仍然生活的规则。
And when the law was first passed, HR departments and companies all over the country were unprepared.
当该法律首次通过时，全国各地的人力资源部门和公司都措手不及。
They had no idea how to evaluate all the different forms of ID people were presenting-- birth certificates, and school records, and Native American tribal documents, and foreign passports with special work authorization stamps.
他们不知道如何评估人们出示的所有不同形式的身份证件——出生证明、学校记录、美洲原住民部落文件，以及带有特殊工作授权印章的外国护照。
They couldn't tell whether they seemed genuine on their face.
他们无法从脸上看出他们是否真诚。
So in 1995, Congress, in a very practical, bipartisan way that we almost never see any more, decided that it had to fix the problem and come up with a simple way for employers to tell who is legal to work in the United States and who isn't, to figure out who they could hire.
因此，1995年，国会以一种我们几乎再也见不到的非常务实的两党合作方式，决定必须解决这个问题，并提出一种简单的方法，让雇主能够辨别谁在美国合法工作，谁不合法，从而确定他们可以雇用谁。
Senator Dianne Feinstein warned, at the time, they had to solve this crisis now-- of immigrants coming in illegally and getting these jobs.
参议员黛安·范斯坦当时警告说，他们现在必须解决这场非法移民并获得这些工作的危机。
I fear an even more serious backlash nationwide against all immigrants, including those who want to come to our country legally.
我担心全国范围内针对所有移民的更严重的抵制，包括那些想要合法来到我们国家的移民。
Obviously, they didn't solve it.
显然，他们没有解决这个问题。
And here we are today.
今天我们就到这里了。
A bipartisan commission called the Jordan Commission considered a bunch of solutions.
一个名为约旦委员会的两党委员会考虑了一系列解决方案。
One of the things they ended up proposing was a national computerized system to check people's IDs, and make sure they were valid, and their social security numbers are real.
他们最终提出的建议之一是建立一个国家计算机化系统来检查人们的身份证，并确保它们是有效的，并且他们的社会安全号码是真实的。
This is the system we've come to know as E-Verify.
这就是我们所熟知的电子验证系统。
The commission wanted it to be mandatory everywhere, but an almost laughably wide ranging coalition rose up against it.
该委员会希望它在所有地方都具有强制性，但几乎可笑的是，范围广泛的联盟起来反对它。
This was the ACLU, plus the NRA, plus church groups, plus business interests, plus La Raza.
这就是美国公民自由联盟（ACLU）、全国步枪协会（NRA）、教会团体、商业利益集团、拉拉扎（La Raza）。
They all saw it as Big Brother government intrusion.
他们都认为这是老大哥政府的入侵。
So a voluntary program moved forward.
因此，一项自愿计划得以推进。
A few of the poultry plants in Albertville voluntarily signed up for the pilot program of E-Verify in the late '90s.
上世纪 90 年代末，阿尔贝维尔的一些家禽工厂自愿签署了 E-Verify 试点计划。
Tom Howell, at Wayne Farms, says they were the first.
韦恩农场的汤姆·豪威尔说他们是第一个。
Because frankly, I wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing.
因为坦率地说，我想确保我知道自己在做什么。
And I had no way of knowing if somebody handed me a document, especially an alien card, whether or not it was legitimate or not.
我无法知道是否有人递给我一份文件，尤其是一张外国人卡，无论它是否合法。
So I'll be honest with you, I didn't have a clue what I was looking for.
所以我会诚实地告诉你，我不知道我在寻找什么。
And I was looking for any tool I could find.
我一直在寻找我能找到的任何工具。
So how much better was E-Verify then?
那么 E-Verify 到底好多少呢？
What's the difference that E-Verify made?
E-Verify 有何不同？
To me, the big fallacy of it-- it would tell you that a document was valid, but it wouldn't tell you that the bearer of that document was actually the person that the document was for, if that makes any sense.
对我来说，它的一个大谬误是——它会告诉你一份文件是有效的，但它不会告诉你该文件的持有者实际上是该文件的对象，如果这有任何意义的话。
What you're talking about is people using somebody else's papers.
你说的是人们使用别人的论文。
That's right.
这是正确的。
I mean, that was the fallacy of it, but it was the only thing available at the time.
我的意思是，这是它的谬误，但它是当时唯一可用的东西。
And we used it religiously.
我们虔诚地使用它。
I mean, I have talked to workers who did used to work here who were up front about the fact.
我的意思是，我曾与曾经在这里工作过的工人交谈过，他们很坦率地了解了这一事实。
They were like, yeah.
他们就像，是的。
I came here, and I used a fake ID, and I worked here.
我来到这里，我用了假身份证，我在这里工作。
Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that hasn't happened.
现在，我不会坐在这里告诉你这一切还没有发生。
But I can tell you that if we ever caught them, they weren't working here.
但我可以告诉你，如果我们抓到他们，他们就不是在这里工作了。
Workers confirmed this.
工人们证实了这一点。
Inviting your boss to your quinceanera was not a good idea.
邀请你的老板参加你的成人礼并不是一个好主意。
But like Tom said, E-Verify couldn't detect when someone presented valid papers that actually had been issued to someone else.
但正如汤姆所说，电子验证无法检测到某人何时提交了实际上已颁发给其他人的有效文件。
And so lots of people slipped through.
于是很多人就这样溜过去了。
A study commissioned by the government in 2009 found that over half of undocumented workers with fake papers-- people E-Verify should have caught-- got a clean bill of health.
2009 年政府委托进行的一项研究发现，超过一半持有假证件的无证工人（E-Verify 应该抓到的人）的健康状况良好。
What this means is that E-Verify worked out in a very convenient way for employers.
这意味着电子验证为雇主提供了一种非常方便的方式。
They could simultaneously keep a huge illegal workforce while saying they were doing everything possible to root out that workforce.
他们可以同时保留大量非法劳动力，同时表示他们正在尽一切可能根除这些劳动力。
Pat says if she learned about someone who had a fake ID, sometimes she went to her supervisor and was told--
帕特说，如果她得知有人持有假身份证，有时她会去找主管，并被告知——
Everything on their paperwork checks out OK.
他们的文书工作上的所有内容都经过检查。
What can we do?
我们能做什么？
Her ID showed up good.
她的身份证显示正常。
Her ID showed up good.
她的身份证显示正常。
So by the early 2000s, you have all these undocumented workers not getting caught by E-Verify working in the Albertville plants, which raises the central question you come to when we talk about immigration-- did Americans end up out of work because of it?
因此，到了 2000 年代初期，所有这些在阿尔贝维尔工厂工作的无证工人都没有被电子验证发现，这就提出了当我们谈论移民时会遇到的核心问题——美国人是否因此而失业？
As Jeff Sessions puts it--
正如杰夫塞申斯所说——
You let a bunch of people come in from out of the country to take what few jobs there are, leaving Americans unemployed.
你让一群人从国外进来，抢走了为数不多的工作，导致美国人失业。
Or as Martha says-- and by the way, she's a Democrat.
或者正如玛莎所说——顺便说一句，她是民主党人。
Voted for Clinton.
投票给了克林顿。
You know, you need to hire Americans.
你知道，你需要雇用美国人。
You know, there are people out there that wants jobs.
你知道，有人想要工作。
But there for many years, they just quit hiring Americans.
但多年来，他们只是不再雇用美国人。
So did these immigrants result in Americans out of work?
那么这些移民导致美国人失业吗？
To answer that, we turn to a labor economist who's made this kind of question his life's work, Giovanni Peri of the University of California, Davis.
为了回答这个问题，我们求助于一位将此类问题作为毕生研究课题的劳动经济学家，他是加州大学戴维斯分校的乔瓦尼·佩里 (Giovanni Peri)。
Hi, Ira.
嗨，艾拉。
Hi, Miki.
嗨，米基。
Nice to talk to you today.
很高兴今天能和你说话。
Peri did a study for us comparing the area around Albertville and counties in Alabama that had similar job markets but did not get a lot of immigrants.
佩里为我们做了一项研究，比较了阿尔伯特维尔周边地区和阿拉巴马州的各县，这些地区有类似的就业市场，但没有大量移民。
And it looked at the Americans most likely to lose their jobs to those immigrants, the ones competing against them for those poultry jobs.
它还研究了最有可能因这些移民而失去工作的美国人，这些移民与他们竞争家禽工作。
These are people who did not finish high school.
这些人没有完成高中学业。
Were more of them out of a job?
他们中有更多人失业了吗？
Was their unemployment rate higher around Albertville?
阿尔贝维尔周围的失业率更高吗？
No. So we don't find here a significant difference in the unemployment rate between Albertville and the comparison counties.
不会。因此，我们没有发现阿尔贝维尔县和对照县之间的失业率存在显着差异。
So even though a flood of immigrants came in, native-born workers were still finding jobs in equal numbers.
因此，尽管大量移民涌入，本土出生的工人仍然找到了同等数量的工作。
Yes.
是的。
Because the economy was becoming bigger.
因为经济规模越来越大。
And these immigrants coming in in part were consumers.
这些进来的移民部分是消费者。
And so they created demand, also, for other jobs.
因此，他们也创造了对其他工作的需求。
In other words, so many people moved to Albertville-- remember, it's over 6,000 people who moved in.
换句话说，有很多人搬到了阿尔贝维尔——记住，有超过 6,000 人搬进来了。
And they had to rent places to live and buy groceries and gas and other stuff in this little town.
他们必须在这个小镇上租房子住，购买杂货、汽油和其他东西。
And the labor fueled the expansion of the poultry plants and all the businesses associated with poultry.
劳动力推动了家禽加工厂和所有与家禽相关的业务的扩张。
So even if fewer American workers were in the plants themselves, it created tons of work around town.
因此，即使工厂里的美国工人减少了，它也会在城镇周围创造大量的工作机会。
And the numbers show the Americans found work elsewhere.
数据显示，美国人在其他地方找到了工作。
What's interesting is that all of that was invisible to the local workers in the plants.
有趣的是，所有这些对于工厂里的当地工人来说都是看不见的。
They didn't see the economy of the whole town.
他们没有看到整个城镇的经济。
They didn't see the jobs being created everywhere.
他们并没有看到到处都在创造就业机会。
They saw what was right in front of them in the plant, which was immigrants getting hired there.
他们在工厂里看到了眼前的景象，那就是移民在那里受雇。
They weren't wrong about that.
他们在这一点上并没有错。
By the early 2000s, just 10 years after Latino workers first arrived in the plants, they dominated the workforce there.
到 2000 年代初，即拉丁裔工人首次来到工厂 10 年后，他们就在工厂劳动力中占据主导地位。
Whites were in the minority.
白人占少数。
Again, here's Martha.
玛莎又来了。
Well, you know, you go out there, and you get on the line.
嗯，你知道，你出去，然后接通电话。
And you're the only white person.
而你是唯一的白人。
And you got 25 Hispanics.
还有 25 个西班牙裔。
And right across from you on that line is all Hispanics.
在那条线上你对面都是西班牙裔。
You're standing right there by yourself.
你一个人站在那儿。
What was it like to suddenly be the minority in the plant?
突然成为工厂里的少数派是什么感觉？
Well, it wasn't that bad when they started.
嗯，他们刚开始的时候情况并没有那么糟糕。
But after they'd been there a while, they kind of thought they owned it.
但当他们在那里呆了一段时间后，他们有点认为他们拥有它。
And there was more of them.
而且还有更多。
You know, they kind of stay with their group, the family, you know, like aunts and cousins.
你知道，他们有点像阿姨和表兄弟姐妹一样和他们的团体、家庭待在一起。
And just about all of them's kin somehow, you know?
不知何故，他们几乎都是亲戚，你知道吗？
They started changing their attitude.
他们开始改变态度。
What would come up?
会发生什么？
Martha It was hard to work with them.
玛莎 和他们一起工作很困难。
Because they were speaking their language and talk about people and make fun of them.
因为他们说着自己的语言，谈论别人并取笑他们。
And Americans know they was talking or laughing at them.
美国人知道他们在嘲笑他们。
You know, and it started causing problems.
你知道，它开始引起问题。
We had quite a few fights in the breakrooms.
我们在休息室里发生了好几次争吵。
Then we had them carried out to the parking lot, you know.
然后我们把他们带到停车场，你知道的。
Martha believes it's no accident that the workforce flipped like this.
玛莎认为，劳动力的转变绝非偶然。
She believes the companies had a strong incentive to hire Latino workers rather than the locals.
她认为，这些公司有强烈的动机雇用拉丁裔工人，而不是当地人。
And the incentive was a big one.
这种激励是很大的。
They didn't join the union, most of them anyway.
无论如何，他们中的大多数人都没有加入工会。
The two big Albertville plants, Tyson Foods and Wayne Farms, are union shops.
阿尔贝维尔的两家大型工厂泰森食品和韦恩农场都是工会商店。
Which is unusual for poultry and unusual in Alabama, which is a right-to-work state.
这对于家禽来说是不寻常的，对于阿拉巴马州也是不寻常的，因为阿拉巴马州是一个工作权州。
Which means workers can opt out of the union and not pay dues.
这意味着工人可以选择退出工会并且不缴纳会费。
Pat's a lifelong union member.
帕特是终身工会会员。
Martha's chief steward at her plant.
玛莎工厂的首席管家。
For years, the union had fought for better conditions and higher pay.
多年来，工会一直在争取更好的条件和更高的工资。
And Pat and Martha's biggest frustration with her Latino coworkers is that they couldn't convince them to join.
帕特和玛莎对拉丁裔同事最大的挫败感是他们无法说服他们加入。
They don't understand it.
他们不明白。
All they see is that $9.10 coming out of their check every week for union dues.
他们所看到的只是每周从支票中扣除 9.10 美元的工会会费。
And they don't want to pay it.
他们不想付钱。
Because they don't want to spend that money.
因为他们不想花那个钱。
They've got to send it home.
他们必须把它送回家。
The union could do awesome in a poultry plant if the Hispanics would unite and help us.
如果西班牙裔人团结起来帮助我们，工会可以在家禽加工厂做得很棒。
I mean, we could rule the roost, you might say.
我的意思是，你可能会说，我们可以称霸。
Latino workers we talked to confirmed this.
我们采访的拉丁裔工人证实了这一点。
They didn't want to pay the extra money.
他们不想支付额外的钱。
They get the same salary and benefits regardless of whether they paid dues and joined the union.
无论是否缴纳会费并加入工会，他们都获得相同的工资和福利。
So why bother?
那为什么还要麻烦呢？
The union president during the '90s, Joe Ellis, agrees with Martha that the companies were deliberately hiring Latino workers as a strategy to weaken the union.
90 年代的工会主席乔·埃利斯 (Joe Ellis) 同意玛莎的观点，即公司故意雇用拉丁裔工人作为削弱工会的战略。
Oh, there is no doubt-- I mean, I could tell you that there is no doubt.
哦，毫无疑问——我的意思是，我可以告诉你，毫无疑问。
There's no doubt.
毫无疑问。
I mean, the results show that.
我的意思是，结果表明了这一点。
I mean, there is no doubt about it.
我的意思是，这是毫无疑问的。
I mean, we had membership at those plants at that time, probably, 80% to 90%, or even 95%.
我的意思是，当时我们在这些工厂有会员，大概有 80% 到 90%，甚至 95%。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Joe Ellis And then when the Latinos come in, that changed.
乔·埃利斯（Joe Ellis） 然后当拉丁裔进来时，情况发生了变化。
And when that changed, then the bargaining unit changed.
当这种情况发生变化时，谈判单位就会发生变化。
Because we didn't have any bargaining power.
因为我们没有讨价还价的能力。
So you were at their mercy.
所以你任凭他们摆布。
The union sent us records for 1991 that show membership at one of the plants, Wayne Farms, at 94.5%.
工会向我们发送了 1991 年的记录，显示韦恩农场 (Wayne Farms) 工厂的会员比例为 94.5%。
Wayne Farms disputes this number, says membership has never been that high.
韦恩农场对这个数字提出异议，称会员数量从未如此之高。
Today, the union says they're in the mid-40s at both union plants in town.
如今，工会称镇上两家工会工厂的员工都在 40 多岁。
The unions lost their 30-minute paid breaks.
工会失去了 30 分钟的带薪休息时间。
Raises are minimal.
加薪幅度很小。
The companies-- Wayne Farms and Tyson Foods-- were adamant that they were not hiring Latino workers as a strategy to weaken the union.
韦恩农场和泰森食品这两家公司坚称，他们不会雇用拉丁裔工人作为削弱工会的战略。
They said they didn't do anything to specially recruit Latino workers.
他们说他们没有采取任何措施来专门招募拉丁裔工人。
And by the way, as long as we're on the subject, they said they did not put up a sign or signs on the border with Mexico.
顺便说一句，只要我们谈到这个话题，他们就说他们没有在与墨西哥的边境上竖起一个或多个标志。
They said what happened was simple.
他们说发生的事情很简单。
The population of people applying for jobs changed.
申请工作的人数发生了变化。
And they hired whoever applied and was qualified.
他们雇用了所有申请并符合资格的人。
Remember, these are plants with incredibly high turnover, always scrambling to hire people.
请记住，这些工厂的营业额非常高，总是争先恐后地招人。
And during the '90s, they got all their workers through the state employment office.
在 90 年代，他们让所有工人都通过了州就业办公室。
It was the state employment office sending over the people to fill the jobs.
是国家就业办公室派人来填补空缺的。
And Latino applicants are who they sent.
拉丁裔申请者就是他们派来的。
Bruce Williams was in HR during the '90s and 2000s at Wayne Farms.
Bruce Williams 在 20 世纪 90 年代和 2000 年代在韦恩农场 (Wayne Farms) 担任人力资源职务。
OK.
好的。
If your application flow-- the number of applications you get in-- say it's 60%, 70% Hispanic, over a period of time.
如果你的申请流程（即收到的申请数量）在一段时间内有 60%、70% 是西班牙裔。
What does that tell you your workforce is going look like?
这告诉您您的员工队伍会是什么样子？
It's just-- it's just plain arithmetic.
这只是——这只是简单的算术。
You know, 'cause I remember telling a couple of people, all right.
你知道，因为我记得告诉过几个人，好吧。
I needed 10 people.
我需要 10 个人。
I got 50 applications this week.
这周我收到了 50 份申请。
They were all Hispanic.
他们都是西班牙裔。
Now who am I supposed to hire?
现在我应该雇用谁？
Well, go out and find some white people.
好吧，出去找一些白人。
Well, why do you go find people?
那你为什么要去找人呢？
You've got people coming to you.
有人来找你。
Even if the Albertville plants never actively sought out or recruited Latino workers, it's important to note that it's been documented that poultry companies elsewhere did by sending scouts to Texas and Florida and running ads in Spanish-language newspapers and radio stations.
即使阿尔贝维尔工厂从未积极寻找或招募拉丁裔工人，但值得注意的是，有记录表明其他地方的家禽公司通过向德克萨斯州和佛罗里达州派遣侦察员并在西班牙语报纸和广播电台上投放广告来做到这一点。
Tyson Foods was indicted in 2001 by federal prosecutors for recruiting workers from outside the United States, from Mexico and Central America, and helping them get fake documents.
2001年，泰森食品公司因从美国境外、墨西哥和中美洲招募工人并帮助他们获取虚假文件而被联邦检察官起诉。
The government lost that case when it failed to prove that this was a company-sanctioned practice, not just some rogue employees at a few of the plants.
政府未能证明这是公司认可的做法，而不仅仅是少数工厂的一些流氓员工，因此败诉。
To be clear, the fact that so few local workers are in the plants today, Pat and Martha don't entirely blame the companies for that.
需要明确的是，如今工厂里的当地工人很少，帕特和玛莎并不完全将此归咎于公司。
Today, Pat no longer believes there was a sign on the border.
如今，帕特不再相信边境上有标志。
They say it was a mixture of things.
他们说这是多种因素的混合体。
Their peers started to retire out.
他们的同龄人开始退休。
And their kids don't work at the plant.
他们的孩子不在工厂工作。
More kids in town are graduating high school and have other options for work.
镇上越来越多的孩子即将高中毕业，并有其他工作选择。
And they said some locals just didn't want to come to work at a place that's mostly Latino.
他们说，一些当地人只是不想在一个主要是拉丁裔的地方工作。
But at the same time, they're convinced that there were periods where the companies did preferentially hire Latino workers, stretches where it really felt like locals couldn't get a job.
但与此同时，他们确信，在某些时期，公司确实优先雇用拉丁裔工人，而在某些时期，他们确实感觉当地人找不到工作。
They'd hear about locals putting in applications but taking a long time to get hired or not getting hired at all.
他们听说当地人提出申请，但花了很长时间才被录用，或者根本没有被录用。
And meanwhile, lots of Latino workers were coming through.
与此同时，许多拉丁裔工人也过来了。
And fact is it really was harder for local workers to get a job than it had been in the past.
事实上，当地工人找工作确实比过去更难了。
Pat and Martha and other locals were right about that.
帕特、玛莎和其他当地人的看法是正确的。
Latino workers would line up at 2:00 in the morning for job applications.
拉丁裔工人会在凌晨 2:00 排队申请工作。
And by the time local workers showed up, the jobs would be taken.
当当地工人出现时，工作机会就会被抢走。
And the companies got pickier.
公司变得更加挑剔。
Plants added a three-strikes policy, and they tried to stick to it.
工厂增加了三振政策，并且他们试图坚持下去。
That if you quit three times, they weren't going to hire you again.
如果你辞职三次，他们就不会再雇用你。
The old mirror-test days were over.
旧的镜子测试时代已经结束了。
You could sum up the last quarter-century at the Albertville chicken plants this way.
您可以这样总结阿尔贝维尔养鸡场过去四分之一个世纪的情况。
Chicken boomed, foreigners arrived, and wages didn't grow-- at least for Pat and Martha-- even though poultry companies made huge profits during the boom.
养鸡业蓬勃发展，外国人到来，工资却没有增长——至少对帕特和玛莎来说是这样——尽管家禽公司在繁荣时期赚取了巨额利润。
Again, here's Pat.
再说一次，这是帕特。
You got to realize, I've been there 44 years-- this May, 44 years.
你必须意识到，我在那里已经 44 年了——今年 5 月，44 年了。
And I'm just now making $11.95.
我现在才赚 11.95 美元。
You've been working there for more than 40 years, and you're at $11.95.
你已经在那里工作了 40 多年，而你的工资是 11.95 美元。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Miki Meek Have your wages kept up with your cost of living?
Miki Meek 你的工资跟得上你的生活成本吗？
Lord, no. No. It's amazing, 40 years ago, I could go to the grocery store with $20 and buy groceries and feed a family of four.
主啊，不。不。这太神奇了，40 年前，我可以用 20 美元去杂货店购买杂货并养活一家四口。
And what about now?
那么现在呢？
Pat Now it takes $120 a week just to feed a family of three.
Pat Now 每周需要 120 美元才能养活一个三口之家。
She makes around $25,000 a year.
她的年收入约为 25,000 美元。
If her wages had simply kept up with inflation, and she made the same thing as she did back when she started on August the 13th, 1973, she'd now be making $48,000 a year-- basically double.
如果她的工资能够跟上通货膨胀，并且她的收入与 1973 年 8 月 13 日开始工作时的收入相同，那么她现在的年薪将达到 48,000 美元，基本上是两倍。
Also, back then, she says she didn't have to pay for her insurance.
而且，当时她说她不必支付保险费。
But now she does.
但现在她做到了。
And those costs go up every contract.
每份合同的成本都会增加。
But how much of the stagnation in her wages is because of immigrants?
但她的工资停滞有多少是因为移民造成的？
The economist we talked to, Giovanni Peri, pointed out to us that it's not just Pat and her coworkers in Alabama who've taken this horrible hit to their wages.
我们采访的经济学家乔瓦尼·佩里 (Giovanni Peri) 向我们指出，不仅仅是帕特和她在阿拉巴马州的同事的工资受到了如此严重的打击。
Not just their wages have stagnated in this period.
在此期间，不仅仅是他们的工资停滞不前。
The wage of low-skilled workers, they have a downward trend actually since 1980.
低技能工人的工资，自1980年以来实际上呈下降趋势。
This is all across America.
这在美国各地都是如此。
And not just people without a high school education.
不仅仅是没有高中教育的人。
It's about half the country whose wages have stayed flat or dropped when you account for inflation.
如果考虑到通货膨胀，大约有一半的国家的工资保持不变或下降。
The people without a high school degree like Pat have taken the worst of it.
像帕特这样没有高中学历的人经历了最糟糕的情况。
There's been a massive transfer of income to managers and shareholders and people at the top of the economic ladder thanks to automation, a low minimum wage, foreign trade with places like China, the decline of unions.
由于自动化、较低的最低工资、与中国等地的对外贸易以及工会的衰落，大量收入转移到了经理、股东和经济阶梯顶端的人手中。
Nationally, the meatpacking unions have been losing power since the '60s.
在全国范围内，肉类加工工会自 60 年代以来一直在失去权力。
A few years back, a sociologist named Jackie Gabriel researched which came first in the meatpacking industry-- wage stagnation or immigrants.
几年前，一位名叫杰基·加布里埃尔（Jackie Gabriel）的社会学家研究了肉类加工行业首先出现的问题：工资停滞或移民。
She found that it went like this.
她发现事情是这样的。
Back in the '60s, the meat industry restructured in ways that weakened the unions.
早在 60 年代，肉类行业的重组方式削弱了工会的力量。
That led to pay cuts.
这导致了减薪。
And those pay cuts made the jobs way less attractive to American workers.
这些减薪使得这些工作对美国工人的吸引力大大降低。
And that paved the way for immigrants to come in and take those jobs.
这为移民进来并接受这些工作铺平了道路。
In other words, it wasn't immigrants that led to wage stagnation but the other way around.
换句话说，不是移民导致了工资停滞，而是相反。
But that still leaves a question.
但这仍然留下了一个问题。
And that is, did the massive arrival of immigrants in the '90s and 2000s all over the country make it worse?
也就是说，90年代和2000年代全国各地大量移民的到来是否让情况变得更糟？
After all, in Albertville, it was thousands of people.
毕竟，在阿尔贝维尔，有数千人。
Did that push down Pat and Martha's wages?
这是否压低了帕特和玛莎的工资？
Well, Giovanni Peri ran the numbers for us.
好吧，乔瓦尼·佩里（Giovanni Peri）为我们计算了数字。
Again, he compared Albertville to counties in Alabama with similar job markets that did not get lots of immigrants.
他再次将阿尔贝维尔与阿拉巴马州就业市场相似但移民不多的县进行了比较。
And he found that after 20 years of immigrants pouring into the area around Albertville, the wages of people without a high school education did have a bigger drop than the counties without all those immigrants.
他发现，在移民涌入阿尔贝维尔周边地区20年之后，没有受过高中教育的人的工资确实比没有这些移民的县有更大的下降。
Their wages were 7% lower, which works out to--
他们的工资低了 7%，结果是——
$23 per week.
每周 23 美元。
Ira Glass $23 a week.
Ira Glass 每周 23 美元。
That adds up to $1,200 per year, per worker.
每名工人每年总计 1,200 美元。
So it's real money.
所以这是真钱。
When I showed this result to other economists, they said this was not surprising at all.
当我向其他经济学家展示这个结果时，他们说这一点也不奇怪。
This is usually what studies find.
这通常是研究发现的。
Though in most studies, the change is smaller than this.
尽管在大多数研究中，变化都小于这个。
Most studies of people across the ideological spectrum find that when immigrants like this arrive, the effect on wages is not massive.
大多数对不同意识形态的人的研究发现，当这样的移民到来时，对工资的影响并不大。
In fact, it's pretty modest-- just a few percentage points or nothing at all.
事实上，这个比例相当小——只有几个百分点，或者根本没有。
But the people affected are the ones without a high school diploma.
但受影响的人是那些没有高中文凭的人。
These studies show that everybody else in the economy, everyone who's graduated high school or more, either they see no change-- that's what happened in Albertville-- or they see a tiny improvement.
这些研究表明，经济中的其他人，所有高中毕业或以上的人，要么没有看到任何变化——这就是阿尔贝维尔发生的事情——要么他们看到了微小的改善。
The wages go up just a couple percentage points.
工资仅上涨几个百分点。
And the one group whose wages suffer, Americans without a high school diploma, that group is not much of the country.
而工资受到影响的一个群体，即没有高中文凭的美国人，这个群体并不占这个国家的大部分。
It's been shrinking for decades.
几十年来它一直在缩小。
It's just 10% of adults today.
今天只有 10% 的成年人。
This is why so many economists are always saying that immigration is good for the economy.
这就是为什么这么多经济学家总是说移民对经济有利。
Because overall, the economy gets a boost.
因为总体而言，经济得到了提振。
And only 10% of wage earners take a hit.
只有 10% 的工薪阶层受到影响。
Which, of course, sounds great unless you're in that 10%, like Pat, who didn't graduate high school.
当然，这听起来不错，除非你属于那 10%，比如帕特，高中没有毕业。
We ran Peri's numbers by her-- his finding that her wages dropped $23 a week-- more than places in Alabama that didn't get all those immigrants.
我们根据佩里的数据计算了她的数据——他发现她的工资每周下降了 23 美元——比阿拉巴马州没有那么多移民的地方还要多。
Giovanni Peri cautioned us that $23 a week is the very most the immigrants might have knocked down Pat's wages.
乔瓦尼·佩里 (Giovanni Peri) 警告我们，每周 23 美元是移民可能压低帕特工资的最高限额。
There's a big margin of error in this study.
这项研究存在很大的误差范围。
So the number might be a lot less, which I told her.
所以这个数字可能会少很多，我告诉她。
Worst case scenario, if all that were immigrants, if they cost you $23 a week, and they cost you $1,200 a year, what do you think about that?
最糟糕的情况是，如果所有这些都是移民，如果他们每周花费你 23 美元，每年花费你 1,200 美元，你对此有何看法？
Mm.
毫米。
Well, it kind of tisses me off a little bit that they costed me that.
好吧，他们让我付出了这么多代价，这让我有点生气。
But wouldn't it have cost them the same thing?
但这不会让他们付出同样的代价吗？
What you're saying is, if my wages went down, then didn't their wages go down too?
你的意思是，如果我的工资降了，那么他们的工资不也降了吗？
Didn't theirs go down too?
他们的不也跌了吗？
But now, you cannot fault them.
但现在，你不能责怪他们。
You cannot fault a person for wanting a job to feed their family.
你不能责怪一个人想要一份工作来养家糊口。
I don't care who you are.
我不在乎你是谁。
After all these years, it's hard not to notice that there's a symmetry in the lives of the old-time workers like Pat and the immigrants who arrived to work alongside them.
这么多年过去了，我们很难不注意到像帕特这样的老工人和与他们一起工作的移民的生活是对称的。
Both groups never finished high school.
两组人都没有完成高中学业。
Both groups used the chicken plants as a way to pull their families out of working in the fields.
两个群体都利用鸡苗来让家人不再下地干活。
Both are incredibly proud that this is what let them buy a house, cars, send their kids to school, make sure they finished and didn't end up at the plants like them.
两人都非常自豪，因为这让他们可以买房子、汽车，送孩子上学，确保他们完成学业，而不是像他们一样最终进入工厂。
And they've both seen their real wages drop over the last 20 years.
过去 20 年来，他们的实际工资都在下降。
Carlos has been in the US since the late '70s and sounds very similar to Pat when he talks about this.
卡洛斯 (Carlos) 自 70 年代末以来一直在美国，谈起此事时，他的语气与帕特 (Pat) 非常相似。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter The problem is that over the years, we've been getting raises of $0.25, $0.30, even $0.50.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 问题是，这些年来，我们的加薪幅度一直是 0.25 美元、0.30 美元，甚至 0.50 美元。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter But at the same time insurance goes up.
[说西班牙语] 翻译 但与此同时保险价格上涨。
Taxes go up at the federal, local, and state level.
联邦、地方和州各级的税收都会增加。
And so when you take all of that out, the check stays the same.
所以当你把所有这些都去掉时，支票保持不变。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter I'm paying more for food, more for the mechanic, and that's what makes my check go down.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 我为食物支付了更多费用，为机械师支付了更多费用，这就是我的支票减少的原因。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter What we really need is an increase in our wages of $1.00 or $2.00.
[说西班牙语] 口译员 我们真正需要的是工资增加 1.00 美元或 2.00 美元。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass And this brings us back to Jeff Sessions, senator and attorney general, who was the reason that we went to Albertville in the first place.
[西班牙语] Ira Glass 这让我们回到了参议员兼总检察长杰夫塞辛斯 (Jeff Sessions)，他是我们最初前往阿尔贝维尔的原因。
When Sessions explains what he's trying to achieve by limiting immigration, he always talks about working people.
当塞申斯解释他试图通过限制移民来实现什么目标时，他总是谈论劳动人民。
He barely sounds like a Republican.
他听起来简直不像个共和党人。
Says our system's too biased towards corporations and capital formation and people at the top.
说我们的制度过于偏向企业、资本形成和高层人士。
And where is it hurting the most?
哪里最痛？
It's the lower-income people.
都是低收入人群。
I mean, wages are down from 2000.
我的意思是，工资比2000低了。
They're down from 2007.
与 2007 年相比有所下降。
People are hurting.
人们正在受伤。
And we need to focus more on the well-being of people who make lower wages-- $50,000 and below.
我们需要更多地关注工资较低（50,000 美元及以下）的人们的福祉。
Thing is, even if Sessions had managed to block immigrants from ever coming to Albertville in the first place, or if the administration that he serves figures out how to do that now, the main things in America driving down wages weren't immigrants at all.
问题是，即使塞申斯一开始就设法阻止移民来到阿尔贝维尔，或者如果他所服务的政府现在知道如何做到这一点，美国压低工资的主要因素根本不是移民。
[MUSIC - "WORKIN' WOMAN BLUES" BY VALERIE JUNE]
[音乐 - VALERIE JUNE 创作的《WORKIN' WOMAN BLUES》]
Next week on our show, we go into town to see what 6,000 newcomers cost taxpayers, and what it was like to have all these immigrants who'd never driven cars before suddenly on the roads not understanding what a stop sign is, and why a Latino business owner told his friend to run for mayor on the platform of kicking out all the immigrants.
下周的节目中，我们将进城看看 6,000 名新移民让纳税人付出了多少代价，所有这些以前从未开过汽车的移民突然在路上不明白什么是停车标志是什么感觉，以及为什么一位拉丁裔企业主告诉他的朋友以驱逐所有移民为纲领竞选市长。
Our program today was reported and produced by Miki Meek with additional reporting from Lilly Sullivan, and Diane Wu, and me.
我们今天的节目由 Miki Meek 报道和制作，Lilly Sullivan、Diane Wu 和我进行了补充报道。
Our interpreter was Gabriela Munoz.
我们的翻译是加布里埃拉·穆尼奥斯。
Fact-checking by Christopher Swetala and Michelle Harris.
克里斯托弗·斯韦塔拉和米歇尔·哈里斯进行的事实核查。
Original music by Marcus Thorne Bagala.
马库斯·索恩·巴加拉的原创音乐。
People who put our show together today include Susan Burton, Zoe Chace, Neil Drumming, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Jonathan Menjivar, BA Parker, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Lyra Smith, Julie Snyder, and Matt Tierney.
今天制作我们节目的人员包括 Susan Burton、Zoe Chace、Neil Drumming、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Jonathan Menjivar、BA Parker、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Lyra Smith、Julie Snyder 和 Matt Tierney。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, where this week you can nerd out on Giovanni Peri research on Albertville-- with charts-- thisamericanlife.org.
[鸣谢] 我们的网站，本周您可以通过该网站了解乔瓦尼·佩里 (Giovanni Peri) 对阿尔伯特维尔的研究（附有图表）- thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, for some reason, he has always referred to his employees as chickens and described his own job as--
你知道，出于某种原因，他总是称自己的员工为鸡，并将自己的工作描述为——
I have drawed chickens, hung chickens, dumped chickens, pushed dead chickens--
我画过鸡，挂过鸡，扔过鸡，推过死鸡——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories about Albertville and This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多关于阿尔伯特维尔和《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "WORKIN' WOMAN BLUES" BY VALERIE JUNE]
[音乐 - VALERIE JUNE 创作的《WORKIN' WOMAN BLUES》]
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。