626: White Haze - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #626 | September 22, 2017 626: White Haze Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 626 集 | 2017 年 9 月 22 日 626：White Haze 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK, this thing happened last month at our radio show, where, I'm sure you remember the rally of white nationalists and offshoots of the alt-right who descended into a kind of white haze on Charlottesville, marched with torches, one woman was killed.
序言 Ira Glass 好吧，这件事发生在我们上个月的广播节目中，我相信你还记得白人民族主义者和另类右翼分支的集会，他们在夏洛茨维尔的白色薄雾中举着火把游行，一名妇女被杀。
The president spoke about it several times.
总统多次谈到这个问题。
Anyway, when that story first broke here at our show, we realized that the guy who organized that rally in Charlottesville, Jason Kessler, was a member of this right wing men's group that one of our producers, Zoe Chace, had been following for months, like, since the winter.
不管怎样，当这个故事第一次在我们的节目中爆发时，我们意识到在夏洛茨维尔组织这次集会的人杰森·凯斯勒（Jason Kessler）是这个右翼男子团体的成员，我们的制作人佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）从冬天开始就一直关注这个右翼团体几个月。
The group has since disavowed Kessler.
此后该组织否认了凯斯勒的身份。
This was a group founded on the premise that they are not racist.
这个团体的成立前提是他们不是种族主义者。
The group's leader denounced the rally.
该组织的领导人谴责了这次集会。
But it's confusing, right?
但这很令人困惑，对吧？
Like, all these groups that you hear about these days, like the groups at Charlottesville.
就像，你最近听到的所有这些团体，比如夏洛茨维尔的团体。
All these little groups that stand for slightly different things in this movement that's shifting, and slippery, and hard to get a grasp on.
所有这些小团体在这场不断变化、难以捉摸的运动中代表着略有不同的事物。
And often the things their leaders say in public seem like a whitewash, if you'll pardon the expression, of what they really believe.
如果你能原谅他们的表达方式的话，他们的领导人在公开场合所说的话往往看起来像是粉饰他们真正相信的东西。
Not that the leader of this particular group necessarily was whitewashing anything.
这并不是说这个特定团体的领导者一定在粉饰任何事情。
Anyway, today we have the story of a guy who stumbled upon that group that Zoe was following and got involved with them.
不管怎样，今天我们要讲的是一个人的故事，他偶然发现了佐伊跟踪的那个团体并加入了他们。
And this is, like, long before Charlottesville, long before Trump was president.
这就像早在夏洛茨维尔之前，早在特朗普担任总统之前。
And this guy is not exactly who you'd expect would end up with a group like this.
这个人并不完全是你所期望的会加入这样一个团队的人。
He's a liberal black guy, a relationship expert, and a comedian named Dante Nero.
他是一位自由派黑人、一位人际关系专家，也是一位喜剧演员，名叫但丁·尼罗。
He makes part of his living giving advice to guys on how to pick up women, like this.
他的一部分生活就是向男人们提供如何泡妞的建议，就像这样。
This is from a podcast.
这是来自播客。
Ask me to consult you, the first thing I would tell you to do is, I do this thing where I go lay five bricks a day.
让我咨询你，我要告诉你的第一件事是，我每天砌五块砖。
I tell a guy to speak to five women every day.
我告诉一个人每天和五个女人说话。
They don't have to be pretty.
他们不必很漂亮。
They don't have to be somebody you wanna [BLEEP].
他们不一定是你想要的人[BLEEP]。
But you just say "beautiful eyes," "oh, I like your glasses," "your makeup is impeccable." So five a day every day for eight weeks.
但你只是说“眼睛很漂亮”、“哦，我喜欢你的眼镜”、“你的妆容无可挑剔”。所以每天五次，持续八周。
That's 285 women.
那是 285 名女性。
Look, you learn things about that interaction between men and women.
听着，你学到了关于男人和女人之间互动的东西。
And--
还有——
Dante Nero became the spiritual leader of sorts for this right wing group that Zoe was following.
但丁·尼禄成为佐伊追随的这个右翼团体的精神领袖。
He was drinking with the guys.
他正在和那些家伙喝酒。
He was giving them pointers about women.
他向他们提供有关女性的指导。
And he saw the group's evolution, and he was really surprised when a couple of the guys in the group ended up in Charlottesville.
他看到了这个团体的演变，当这个团体中的几个人最终来到夏洛茨维尔时，他真的很惊讶。
Surprised and disturbed.
惊讶又不安。
Well, today on our program, the fuzzy boundaries between these right wing groups and how guys who do not think of themselves as racist end up sharing opinions, and hanging out with guys who definitely are.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，这些右翼团体之间的模糊界限，以及那些不认为自己是种族主义者的人最终如何分享观点，并与确实是种族主义者的人一起出去玩。
Where does that lead?
这会导致什么结果呢？
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And let's just jump right into Act One.
让我们直接进入第一幕。
Act One, Lost in the Proud.
第一幕，迷失在骄傲中。
Quick warning before we start.
在我们开始之前快速警告。
There's some strong language in this story.
这个故事中有一些强烈的语言。
Nothing graphic, but some slurs, and men referring to the existence of sex.
没有什么生动的内容，但有一些诽谤，还有男人提到性的存在。
Or, actually, to the nonexistence of it.
或者，实际上，它根本不存在。
Here's Zoe.
这是佐伊。
Her story about Dante Nero starts earlier this year.
她关于但丁尼禄的故事始于今年早些时候。
I only met Dante after months of hanging out with these guys, these new right, alt-right, alt-light Twitter trolls.
我是在与这些新右派、另类右派、另类轻派推特巨魔们相处了几个月后才认识但丁的。
I started meeting up with them right after Trump's inauguration.
特朗普就职后我就开始与他们会面。
Even though their guy won, they were still acting like insurgents, not like winners.
尽管他们的人赢了，但他们的表现仍然像叛乱分子，而不是胜利者。
Like their revolution wasn't over yet.
就像他们的革命还没有结束一样。
Take charge of your own life, take charge of the country.
对自己的生活负责，对国家负责。
I'd go to one party at some clubby leather seat whiskey bar in DC or in New York.
我会去华盛顿或纽约的一些俱乐部式皮革座椅威士忌酒吧参加一场聚会。
That would get me invited to another and another.
这会让我被邀请去参加另一个又一个的活动。
And then finally, at this one bar crawl near Trump Tower in March, I met the group I've been following for a few months now, the group this story is about.
最后，在三月份特朗普大厦附近的一次酒吧聚会中，我遇到了我几个月来一直关注的团体，也就是这个故事所涉及的团体。
So who's coming?
那么谁来了？
Like, who are these guys?
比如，这些人是谁？
What do you mean, they're Proud Boys?
你说他们是骄傲男孩是什么意思？
Can you just say what that is?
你能简单说一下那是什么吗？
Proud Boys is a fraternity.
骄傲男孩是一个兄弟会。
It's a fraternity.
这是兄弟会。
That's all.
就这样。
It's a fraternal organization.
这是一个兄弟组织。
Can you just say a little more about that?
您能再多说一点吗？
What do you mean it's a fraternity?
你说这是兄弟会是什么意思？
It's a fraternal organization.
这是一个兄弟组织。
I mean, I just don't understand how to describe it any other way than that.
我的意思是，我只是不明白如何用其他方式来描述它。
I mean, that's pretty much the clearest way.
我的意思是，这几乎是最清晰的方式。
This is Sal.
这是萨尔。
He's 29.
他29岁了。
Huge beard.
巨大的胡子。
His head is a circle of hair, like that wild thing from Where the Wild Things Are.
他的头是一圈头发，就像野兽出没的那个野兽一样。
He's got a sharp tongue.
他的舌头很尖。
It's hard to tell when he's joking.
很难判断他什么时候在开玩笑。
Here's how he'd introduce me sometimes at bars.
有时在酒吧他会这样介绍我。
This is Zoe.
这是佐伊。
All right, Zoe is single.
好吧，佐伊是单身。
She needs a fucking man as soon as possible, and she needs to start having kids, OK?
她需要尽快找到一个该死的男人，而且她需要开始生孩子，好吗？
It was hard at first to get people to explain exactly what the Proud Boys were about, and Sal gets impatient.
一开始很难让人们准确解释骄傲男孩的意义，萨尔变得不耐烦。
Even though he founded the Long Island Proud Boys chapter, there are chapters all over the country.
尽管他创立了长岛骄傲男孩分会，但全国各地都有分会。
We're not allowed to talk about these things.
我们不被允许谈论这些事情。
I'm just-- I can give you like, we were drinking, we did cocaine, we got tattoos.
我只是——我可以告诉你，我们喝酒、吸食可卡因、我们纹身。
That's pretty much it.
差不多就这样了。
I mean--
我的意思是——
Sal's roommate, Cameron, put it differently.
萨尔的室友卡梅伦则有不同的说法。
Proud Boys?
骄傲的男孩？
What drew me to it is the value we place on family.
吸引我的是我们对家庭的重视。
Especially, like, fatherhood.
尤其是，像父亲一样。
That's a big deal.
这是一件大事。
The Proud Boys have these rituals, degrees.
骄傲男孩有这些仪式和学位。
What's second degree?
什么是二级？
Cameron I-- I can't talk about that.
卡梅伦我——我不能谈论这个。
I mean, you'll probably find out soon, but--
我的意思是，你可能很快就会发现，但是——
OK, first degree is declaring you're a Proud Boy.
好吧，第一个学位就是宣布你是一个骄傲的男孩。
Second degree is getting punched while you try to name five breakfast cereals, like, to show you can focus your mind while under attack.
第二级是当你试图说出五种早餐麦片的名称时遭到殴打，例如，以表明你在受到攻击时可以集中注意力。
The third is getting "Proud Boy" tattooed on your body.
第三个是将“骄傲男孩”纹在身上。
The Proud Boys have special greetings.
骄傲男孩们有特别的问候。
Like, they yell "proud of your boy," or "uhuru" at each other.
比如，他们互相大喊“为你的儿子感到骄傲”或“uhuru”。
Which is this pro-Africa socialist slogan.
这就是亲非洲社会主义口号。
It's kind of an ironic thing.
这真是一件讽刺的事情。
They have theme songs.
他们有主题曲。
(SINGING) Proud of your boy.
（唱歌）为你的孩子感到骄傲。
Bad as I've been, ma, you're in for a pleasant surprise.
尽管我一直很糟糕，妈妈，你还是会得到一个惊喜。
That's from Aladdin.
那是阿拉丁的。
It's not in the movie, but it is in the Broadway musical.
电影中没有，但百老汇音乐剧中有。
What interested me in these guys was this thing they believed that I'd been hearing since the beginning of the presidential primaries, that they were feeling marginalized and depressed.
我对这些人感兴趣的是，他们相信我从总统初选开始以来就一直听到他们感到被边缘化和沮丧。
This feeling came up so much with guys I talked to during the Trump campaign it seems like one of the driving forces that got him into office.
在特朗普竞选期间与我交谈过的人经常有这种感觉，这似乎是他上任的驱动力之一。
For a lot of people, "Make America Great Again" was about "make men great again." I kept asking guys to tell me how were you marginalized?
对于很多人来说，“让美国再次伟大”就是“让男人再次伟大”。我一直要求大家告诉我你是如何被边缘化的？
Like, what happened to you personally that made you feel like this?
比如，你个人发生了什么事情让你有这样的感觉？
But every time I asked, I'd get these grand statements.
但每次我问起时，我都会得到这些宏大的陈述。
Like it's the whole culture that's against them.
好像整个文化都在反对他们。
Men are very marginalized.
男性是非常边缘化的。
I mean, in a lot of systems too.
我的意思是，在很多系统中也是如此。
Especially white males.
尤其是白人男性。
White males are the most-- white male Christians are the most marginalized group in the United States.
白人男性最多——白人男性基督徒是美国最边缘化的群体。
We're seeing more women getting degrees in universities.
我们看到越来越多的女性在大学获得学位。
We're seeing less boys graduating from college.
我们看到大学毕业的男孩越来越少。
We're seeing-- we're seeing a switching of the roles, and I think it should be equal.
我们正在看到角色的转换，我认为应该是平等的。
Men serve a purpose.
男人服务于一个目的。
You know, we're biologically different.
你知道，我们在生物学上是不同的。
We're biologically a binary.
我们在生物学上是二元的。
Women are magical and beautiful things in what they do.
女性的所作所为是神奇而美丽的。
And men are, you know, good at what they do.
你知道，男人很擅长他们所做的事情。
So I think what it is, being cast into, like, a non-- not a second class citizen or role, but like a subcategory.
所以我认为这是什么，被塑造成一个非——不是二等公民或角色，而是一个子类别。
What about this compulsion to have women in action movies from Ghostbusters to Charlize Theron, she should be James Bond, and--
从《捉鬼敢死队》到查理兹·塞隆的动作片中都有女性出现，这种强迫症怎么样？她应该是詹姆斯·邦德，而且——
What's bad about that?
这有什么不好呢？
Man That's women saying they want to take over male roles.
男人 这是女人说她们想接管男性角色。
They want to be men.
他们想成为男人。
There's no day for men besides Father's Day, and who cares about that.
除了父亲节之外，没有一个属于男人的节日，谁在乎呢。
And those are just fathers.
这些只是父亲。
But as I got to know them, what surprised me the most was the foundational principle of the Proud Boys, the thing that caused them to band together.
但随着我对他们的了解，最令我惊讶的是骄傲男孩的基本原则，也是促使他们团结在一起的原因。
Here it is.
这里是。
We do not masturbate except once a month, if you want.
如果您愿意，我们不会手淫，除非每月一次。
But I personally do not and don't encourage people to do so.
但我个人不会也不鼓励人们这样做。
This is Franklin Wright.
这是富兰克林·赖特。
He works at Proud Boy Magazine.
他在《骄傲男孩》杂志工作。
And if you do, you have to be within 10 yards of a lady, and it has to be with her consent.
如果你这样做，你必须与一位女士保持在 10 码以内，并且必须得到她的同意。
A quick heads up to listeners.
快速向听众介绍。
People are going to be saying the word "wank" and its synonyms a lot for the rest of the story.
在故事的其余部分，人们会经常提到“手淫”这个词及其同义词。
Because the Proud Boys were founded, in part, as a group of men who refrain from masturbating.
因为“骄傲男孩”的成立在一定程度上是由一群不自慰的男性组成的。
It's more of a religion.
它更像是一种宗教。
Like, you can be a first degree Proud Boy, and no wanks is not a requirement.
就像，你可以成为一级骄傲男孩，并且不做手淫不是必要条件。
So you can be a Proud Boy and masturbate all you want.
所以你可以成为一个骄傲的男孩并随心所欲地自慰。
No problem.
没问题。
When you become initiated within the second degree, then you must adhere to no-wanks.
当你在第二级开始入门时，你必须坚持不手淫。
Which brings us finally to Dante Nero, the relationship expert comedian who got involved in this world.
最后，我们来到了但丁·尼禄，这位涉足这个世界的关系专家喜剧演员。
Dante was the mastermind behind no-wanks.
但丁是“禁止手淫”背后的策划者。
It started for him as a personal life choice.
对他来说，这是一个个人人生的选择。
I decided not to watch porn anymore.
我决定不再看色情片了。
And I just made a-- I made a statement saying "I'm not watching porn anymore, and I'm not masturbating anymore."
我刚刚发表了一份声明说“我不再看色情片了，我也不再自慰了。”
Dante is striking.
但丁很引人注目。
He's 51, bald-headed, lots of tattoos.
他今年 51 岁，秃头，身上有很多纹身。
He has a huge bone stuck through one of his ear lobes.
他的一个耳垂被一根巨大的骨头刺穿了。
He has his own podcast, the Beige Phillip Show, about relationships.
他有自己的播客“米色菲利普秀”，内容涉及人际关系。
"Beige" because he's a light-skinned black guy, "Phillip" for "Dr. Phil." Like this is his version of Dr. Phil's show.
“米色”是因为他是一个浅肤色的黑人，“Phillip”是“菲尔博士”的意思。就像这是他对菲尔博士的表演的版本。
Dante used to be a male stripper.
但丁曾经是一名男性脱衣舞娘。
He's had sex with lots of girls, and so his sex advice comes out of those experiences.
他和很多女孩发生过性关系，所以他的性建议来自于这些经历。
And he felt like no-wanks was a good idea for a lot of the guys who listen to his show.
他觉得对于很多听他节目的人来说，不手淫是个好主意。
That focus on the screen, and masturbating, and watching porn gave an unrealistic idea of what intimacy is, what it is to be a woman.
对屏幕的关注、自慰和观看色情片让人们对什么是亲密、什么是女人产生了不切实际的想法。
And then when they got the rejection, they started to withdraw from the whole idea of social interaction.
然后，当他们遭到拒绝时，他们开始退出社交互动的整个想法。
And they didn't even want to date anymore.
他们甚至不想再约会了。
This is guys who don't even want to date.
这些人甚至不想约会。
And it's insane.
这太疯狂了。
Dante believed that these guys weren't going to get women to sleep with them unless they turned off the computer, got out of the house, talked to women in real life, listened to what they said, and got to know them enough to charm them into bed.
但丁相信，这些家伙不会让女人和他们上床，除非他们关掉电脑，走出家门，在现实生活中与女人交谈，听她们说的话，并充分了解她们以吸引她们上床。
And one day, back two years ago now, he explained this theory to the guy who would latch on to the idea and go on to create the Proud Boys, a guy named Gavin McInnes.
两年前的一天，他向一位名叫加文·麦金尼斯 (Gavin McInnes) 的人解释了这一理论，他抓住了这个想法并继续创建了“骄傲男孩”。
Gavin helped found Vice Media long ago.
加文很久以前就帮助创立了 Vice Media。
He's kind of a libertarian punk, but now he hosts a right wing TV show on the internet.
他是一个自由主义朋克，但现在他在互联网上主持一个右翼电视节目。
And Dante went on Gavin's show and started telling him and his viewers about how he doesn't masturbate.
但丁参加了加文的节目，并开始告诉他和他的观众他如何不手淫。
And he goes "why?" And I said, "well, I find, for me, it mutes me.
他问“为什么？”我说：“好吧，我发现，对我来说，它让我沉默。
It mutes my masculinity to a certain extent." And he challenged me.
它在一定程度上削弱了我的男子气概。”他向我挑战。
He said "let's do a month."
他说：“我们一个月吧。”
Whoa, all right.
哇，好吧。
I'll meet your once a month and raise you nothing.
我每月会见你一次，不会向你提出任何要求。
Once a month.
每月一次。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
After I got off the show with Gavin, he was still-- it affected him in such a way that he constantly was talking about it.
当我和加文结束演出后，他仍然——这对他影响很大，以至于他不断地谈论这件事。
Like, every day, he was talking about no-wanks.
就像，他每天都在谈论“不手淫”。
Zack from Seattle, you want to know about no-wanks with a pregnant wife?
来自西雅图的扎克，你想知道如何与怀孕的妻子进行手淫吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
How am I supposed to commit to no-wanks with a pregnant wife that is in no mood for sex.
我该如何与一个没有性爱心情的怀孕妻子承诺不手淫呢？
Yes, what you're discussing, and we should probably--
是的，你正在讨论的，我们也许应该——
And because I was the guy that talked about it and explained it, I think that they propped me up as the guy, the pope, of no-wanks.
因为我是那个谈论和解释这件事的人，我认为他们支持我作为一个不手淫的人，教皇。
And this whole thing was happening on its own.
而这整件事都是自行发生的。
This whole monster was just growing about this.
这整个怪物正在为此而成长。
And I could see.
我可以看到。
I would see tweets.
我会看到推文。
And every once in a while, somebody would say the pope with no-wanks.
每隔一段时间，就会有人说教皇不手淫。
And then I got a picture of a picture of the pope in the pope garb with my face on it.
然后我得到了一张教皇穿着教皇服装的照片，上面有我的脸。
They superimposed my face.
他们叠加了我的脸。
Guys had t-shirts, and it just became this thing.
伙计们都穿了 T 恤，然后它就变成了这样。
Gavin kept inviting Dante on his show.
加文不断邀请但丁参加他的节目。
And Gavin's show is pretty popular.
加文的节目很受欢迎。
Dante figured he'd get more listeners to Beige Phillip.
但丁认为他会为米色菲利普吸引更多的听众。
Like, Dante is a successful working comic, but it's not full time for him.
就像，但丁是一位成功的工作喜剧演员，但这对他来说并不是全职工作。
He still works a day job at the phone company.
他仍然在电话公司做日常工作。
Gavin's take on no-wanks was a little different from Dante's.
加文对禁止手淫的看法与但丁的略有不同。
Gavin's show is political, and he took no-wanks and added it to the stew of right wing ideas he was talking about already.
加文的表演是政治性的，他没有自责，并将其添加到他已经谈论的右翼思想中。
It was more than just helping guys pick up chicks.
这不仅仅是帮助男人泡妞。
Gavin wanted the guys to stop masturbating, go out, talk to women, and then marry them, procreate, be strong American family men, help restore the natural order of things that had been knocked out of whack by feminism.
加文希望男人们停止手淫，出去，与女人交谈，然后与她们结婚，生育，成为坚强的美国家庭男人，帮助恢复被女权主义打乱的自然秩序。
This was all before the group even had a name.
这一切都是在这个团体还没有名字之前发生的。
And when Gavin McInnes finally announced the name in May 2016, no-wanks was right in there.
当 Gavin McInnes 最终于 2016 年 5 月宣布这个名字时，no-wanks 就出现了。
I'm glad we had that no-wanks caller, because it brought me to a name for this movement I've been thinking about.
我很高兴我们接到了那个不手淫的来电者，因为它让我为我一直在考虑的这项运动起了一个名字。
We are called-- you ready for this?
我们被召唤——你准备好了吗？
The Proud Boys.
骄傲的男孩们。
The Proud Boys are over race.
骄傲男孩队结束了比赛。
We don't talk about-- we talk about race if you want to talk about it, but we don't have any guilt.
如果你想谈论的话，我们不谈论种族，但我们没有任何负罪感。
No guilt whatsoever.
没有任何愧疚。
No cis male guilt, none of that stuff.
没有顺性别男性的内疚感，没有那些东西。
We're pro-gun.
我们支持枪支。
We want to end the drug war.
我们想要结束毒品战争。
We want-- we're libertarians, except when it comes to immigration.
我们希望——我们是自由主义者，除了在移民问题上。
We are pro-dude.
我们是亲哥们。
We think most women would be happier at home.
我们认为大多数女性在家里会更快乐。
We don't beat off.
我们不打败。
Well, we beat off once every 30 days.
好吧，我们每 30 天打败一次。
We watch porn once every 30 days.
我们每 30 天看一次色情片。
We are traditionalists.
我们是传统主义者。
We're sort of like the alt-right without the racism.
我们有点像没有种族主义的另类右翼。
The alt-right without the racism.
没有种族主义的另类右翼。
If you think about it a certain way, it's an ingenious sales pitch for his products.
如果你以某种方式思考，这对他的产品来说是一个巧妙的推销。
The names and affiliations of these right wing groups keep shifting around.
这些右翼团体的名称和隶属关系不断变化。
Today, the alt-right is straight up racist, like white supremacist and anti-Semitic.
如今，另类右翼是彻头彻尾的种族主义者，就像白人至上主义者和反犹太主义者一样。
Whites should have their own ethno-state.
白人应该有自己的民族国家。
Now, Gavin's version of right wing nationalism kept some of the feelings and ideas that animate the alt-right, how affirmative action and feminism have marginalized white men, made them powerless.
现在，加文的右翼民族主义版本保留了一些激励另类右翼的情感和想法，即平权行动和女权主义如何边缘化白人，使他们变得无能为力。
He kept that part.
他保留了那部分。
But he'll say explicitly "we're not racist." "We're not the alt-right." "We don't think white people are superior." "What we think is the West is superior.
但他会明确表示“我们不是种族主义者”。 “我们不是另类右翼。” “我们不认为白人优越。” “我们认为西方更优越。
Western civilization.
西方文明。
The West is the best."
西方是最好的。”
The Proud Boys aren't the only group like this.
骄傲男孩并不是唯一这样的团体。
They keep some of the supremacy without the whiteness.
他们在没有白人的情况下保留了一些至高无上的地位。
It's a step removed from race.
这是远离比赛的一步。
That's how he sells it, anyway.
反正他就是这么卖的。
Let's talk to Jack in Texas.
让我们和德克萨斯州的杰克谈谈吧。
Jack, are you there?
杰克，你在吗？
Like, listen to how he answers this question from a caller shortly after he founded the Proud Boys.
比如，听听他在创立“骄傲男孩”乐队后不久如何回答来电者的这个问题。
So I was wondering, do you see Proud Boys being a-- because it's about more than just no-wanks.
所以我想知道，你是否认为骄傲男孩是一个——因为它不仅仅是关于不手淫。
Do you see it being a subset of the alt-right?
你认为它是另类右翼的一个子集吗？
Sure, sure.
当然，当然。
My problem with the alt-right is, it rules out Wayne Dupree.
我对另类右翼的问题是，它排除了韦恩·杜普雷。
Wayne Dupree is black, a right wing blogger.
韦恩·杜普里 (Wayne Dupree) 是黑人，右翼博主。
I'm a Western chauvinist.
我是一个西方沙文主义者。
I'm all about the culture.
我只关心文化。
Now, part of that is recognizing that white males seem to be the ones who made it and respecting that, but it doesn't mean you're not invited to the party.
现在，其中一部分是认识到白人男性似乎是成功的人并尊重这一点，但这并不意味着你没有被邀请参加聚会。
It's ingenious, because clearly there's a market of guys who don't think of themselves as racists, and who don't want to suffer the social costs of their coworkers, and family, and friends finding out they're part of a racist group, but who do feel aggrieved, and marginalized, and under attack as white guys.
这是巧妙的，因为显然存在一个不认为自己是种族主义者的人市场，他们不想承受同事、家人和朋友发现自己属于种族主义群体的社会成本，但他们确实感到委屈、被边缘化并作为白人受到攻击。
Those are Gavin's boys, though Gavin says the focus is more on beer than aggrievement.
这些是加文的孩子们，尽管加文说重点更多的是啤酒而不是委屈。
It's worth mentioning at this point that Dante Nero was not down with all these ideas.
值得一提的是，但丁·尼禄并没有放弃所有这些想法。
He's never watched Gavin's show.
他从来没有看过加文的节目。
But his audience of guys who wanted to pick up girls and Gavin's audience of right wing guys who wanted to pick up girls overlapped.
但他的听众是那些想泡妞的男人，而加文的听众是那些想泡妞的右翼男人，这两者是重叠的。
So we joined along for the ride.
于是我们就一起去兜风了。
He became first degree.
他成为了第一学位。
Obviously, no-wanks made him eligible for second degree.
显然，不手淫使他有资格获得第二学位。
Often at these events, people would be getting punched and yelling out the name of five breakfast cereals.
在这些活动中，人们常常会被打，并大声喊出五种早餐麦片的名字。
Dante skipped that, progressed straight to third degree, the tattoo.
但丁跳过了这一点，直接进入第三级，即纹身。
Oh, you do.
哦，你知道。
It says "Proud Boy" on your neck.
你脖子上写着“骄傲的男孩”。
Dante felt like he understood these guys on a couple of different levels.
但丁觉得他在几个不同的层面上理解这些人。
He shares a lot of their views on men and women, that all men are essentially the same, all women basically want the same thing.
他对男人和女人有很多共同的看法，所有男人本质上都是一样的，所有女人基本上都想要同样的东西。
And he agrees with some of the anti-politically correct "dudes are being shut down these days" stuff.
他同意一些反政治正确的“这些天男人们都被关闭了”的说法。
"Guys can't say anything anymore without being attacked," Dante told me.
但丁告诉我：“伙计们再也不能说任何话而不会受到攻击。”
Whenever they complain about it, they're called sexist.
每当他们抱怨这一点时，他们就会被称为性别歧视者。
One big difference between Dante and these guys, though, they mostly turned into Trump supporters.
不过，但丁和这些人之间的一大区别是，他们大多变成了特朗普的支持者。
Dante is pretty liberal and doesn't like Trump.
但丁相当自由，不喜欢特朗普。
But this was before Trump became the place to put your resentment over political correctness.
但这是在特朗普成为你对政治正确性的不满之前。
Anyway, they didn't talk politics with Dante much.
无论如何，他们并没有和但丁谈论太多政治话题。
They asked him for relationship advice.
他们向他寻求人际关系方面的建议。
I would just sit there and talk.
我只是坐在那里说话。
Like, they would go "I have this girl.
就像，他们会说“我有这个女孩。
I really like her.
我真的很喜欢她。
Should I approach her?
我应该接近她吗？
She's liked my Facebook pictures." Just you know-- or maybe a guy who's 36 years old and has been with one woman in his lifetime, and he doesn't have a girlfriend, and he's going-- I never made fun of those guys, you know?
她喜欢我的 Facebook 照片。”只是你知道——或者也许一个36岁的男人一生中只和一个女人在一起过，而且他没有女朋友，他会——我从来没有取笑过那些家伙，你知道吗？
I never.
我从来没有。
Empathy.
共情。
Because how do you get people to come out of their shell if you're beating them into the shell about what their shortcomings are?
因为如果你要让人们知道他们的缺点是什么，你如何才能让他们走出自己的外壳呢？
We all have shortcomings.
我们都有缺点。
So empathy was one of the things that I just assumed would be a part of it.
所以同理心是我刚刚假设的其中一部分。
Because that's what I practice.
因为这就是我所练习的。
Dante was into it.
但丁对此很感兴趣。
He says being in a pope-like position wasn't weird for him.
他说担任教皇这样的职位对他来说并不奇怪。
He explained it like he's used to being a figurehead.
他解释得好像他已经习惯了当一个傀儡一样。
He helped organize the male strippers of the Bronx.
他帮助组织了布朗克斯的男性脱衣舞娘。
He also managed a strip club and its escort service.
他还管理一家脱衣舞俱乐部及其伴游服务。
Now he's a union steward at the phone company.
现在他是电话公司的工会代表。
And if he noticed things that alarmed him about the Proud Boys, he ignored them.
如果他注意到骄傲男孩的一些事情让他感到震惊，他就会忽略它们。
It's only now, with a little hindsight, that he points to things he wishes he'd taken more seriously at the time.
直到现在，事后看来，他才指出了他希望当时能更认真对待的事情。
Like the time he brought his nephew to a Proud Boy meet-up.
就像他带侄子参加骄傲男孩聚会一样。
He probably-- was probably the only black kid there.
他可能——可能是那里唯一的黑人孩子。
And he said to me that they would go, "yeah, man, it's your uncle.
他对我说他们会去，“是的，伙计，这是你叔叔。
Cool, cool." My nephew was going to school for music.
酷，酷。”我的侄子要去学校学习音乐。
And they were like, "you know, it's great that you got out of the ghetto, and you were able to go to school." And he was like, "who said I was in the ghetto?
他们说，“你知道，你走出贫民窟真是太好了，而且你可以去上学了。”他说，“谁说我在贫民窟？
I never said that." It was like, "it's great that you got out of a bad situation, and you were able to make it, you know, to college." And he was like, "Like, I live in Midwood, Brooklyn, which is a pretty--" Like, that's where Brooklyn College is.
我从来没有这么说过。”就像是，“很高兴你摆脱了糟糕的处境，而且你知道，你能够上大学。”他说，“就像，我住在布鲁克林的米德伍德，那是一个漂亮的——”就像，那是布鲁克林学院的所在地。
Right.
正确的。
Dante Nero It's pretty upscale.
但丁·尼禄 相当高档。
But their perception-- And I remember him telling me after, it was weird that their perception of what he was, was this stereotypical black guy that kind of made it out.
但他们的看法——我记得他后来告诉我，很奇怪的是，他们对他的看法是这个刻板的黑人。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
That was a red flag, Dante says, as was the Holocaust denier video one of the Proud Boys sent him later, disputing how many people had actually died in the Holocaust.
但丁说，这是一个危险信号，骄傲男孩后来发给他的否认大屠杀的视频也是如此，该视频对大屠杀中实际死亡人数提出了质疑。
Or this other meet-up he went to.
或者他参加的另一场聚会。
It was like a really kind of crappy bar.
这就像一个非常糟糕的酒吧。
And I was like, "why did you choose this bar?" And the reason why they had chosen the bar was because the bar had got really bad reviews on Yelp, because the bartender called somebody a faggot.
我当时想，“你为什么选择这个酒吧？”他们之所以选择这家酒吧，是因为这家酒吧在 Yelp 上的评价非常糟糕，因为调酒师称某人为基佬。
And this is why the-- like, I didn't--
这就是为什么——比如，我没有——
Was there part of you that found that funny?
你是否觉得这很有趣？
No. Zoe Chace Dante wasn't necessarily getting more listeners to his show, but he also has a relationship consulting business.
不。佐伊·切斯·但丁不一定能吸引更多听众观看他的节目，但他也拥有关系咨询业务。
He thought maybe the Proud Boys would become customers.
他认为骄傲男孩也许会成为顾客。
He seems like he was probably having fun sometimes, though he won't cop to that.
他看起来有时可能很开心，尽管他不会承认这一点。
He had a million other things going on too, his own show, his day job, bit parts in movies.
他还有一百万件其他事情要做，他自己的节目、他的日常工作、电影中的小角色。
And, he says, he liked the idea that when he was in the mix he could push back on some of their ideas.
而且，他说，他喜欢这样的想法：当他参与其中时，他可以推翻他们的一些想法。
Like, you thought of yourself as a black ambassador almost.
就像，你几乎认为自己是黑人大使。
Yeah, I guess.
是的，我想。
I mean, I thought that I could-- I would-- I thought that I could give-- that it wouldn't be this echo chamber, if I was part of it.
我的意思是，我以为我可以——我愿意——我以为我可以给予——如果我是其中的一部分，它就不会是这个回声室了。
Honestly, I don't even know what "uhuru" means.
老实说，我什至不知道“uhuru”是什么意思。
I knew it was their call.
我知道这是他们的决定。
I noticed it was very important.
我注意到这非常重要。
I know that they looked up to me.
我知道他们很尊敬我。
I knew that I could-- that if I was part of this, that I could be a voice that they weren't getting from anything else.
我知道我可以——如果我参与其中，我就可以成为他们无法从其他任何地方获得的声音。
And then something happened that really freaked him out.
然后发生了一件真正让他害怕的事情。
Warning, this involves a racial slur.
警告，这涉及种族歧视。
He got an invite to the Proud Boys' Facebook page, and he went on there.
他收到了骄傲男孩 Facebook 页面的邀请，于是他就去了那里。
And there was nigger this and nigger that, Nazi this.
还有这个黑鬼、那个黑鬼、纳粹这个。
And there was, like, this white supremacist stuff.
还有，比如，白人至上主义的东西。
And I'm like, "I'm the pope.
我说：“我是教皇。
You're talking about black people like this." There's pictures of, you know, the old cartoons with the black dudes with the big lips and the bone.
你在谈论这样的黑人。”你知道，有一些老动画片的照片，里面有大嘴唇和骨头的黑人。
Like, there was all this stuff on it, and I was like "yo!" I even said this to Gavin.
就像，上面有所有这些东西，我就像“哟！”我什至对加文说过这句话。
I go, "man, I'm not really comfortable with this at all.
我说，“伙计，我对此一点也不舒服。
Because they're talking about me!" And Gavin actually screamed on them and said, "listen, the pope doesn't want to come on anymore, because all this racist stuff needs to stop."
因为他们在谈论我！”加文实际上对他们尖叫并说：“听着，教皇不想再上场了，因为所有这些种族主义的事情都需要停止。”
So he actually took a stand with it, but you've already done everything to kind of get these guys to that point already.
所以他实际上表明了立场，但你已经做了一切事情来让这些人达到这一点。
Like, how do you make a left turn off of that once they're already there?
比如，一旦他们已经到了，你如何左转？
I guess that's what I wonder is like, did you have a theory in your mind as to why all this racist stuff was showing up on a Proud Boy's Facebook page?
我想这就是我想知道的，你心里是否有一个理论可以解释为什么所有这些种族主义内容会出现在骄傲男孩的 Facebook 页面上？
It was the natural progression.
这是自然的进展。
I think it was the natural progression in terms of "OK, we're the greatest.
我认为这是自然的进展，“好吧，我们是最伟大的。
We're this." You're not!
我们就是这个。”你不！
You're 22 years old.
你今年22岁了。
You haven't done anything.
你什么也没做。
I'm not saying that they don't have the potential to be great, but who's great at 22?
我并不是说他们没有潜力，但是谁在22岁时就很伟大呢？
And your whiteness doesn't make you great.
而且你的白度并不会让你变得伟大。
Neither does my blackness make me great.
我的黑人也不能让我变得伟大。
It's the content of what I do on a day to day basis, and how I operate on a day to day basis.
这是我每天所做的事情的内容，以及我每天如何运作的内容。
But when you are in this vacuum and everybody's jerking each other off-- I mean funny--
但当你在这个真空中，每个人都在互相打手枪时——我的意思是有趣——
I mean, maybe not.
我的意思是，也许不是。
Dante Nero Right, maybe not, but socially jerking each other, "we're great, we're the best," where is growth?
但丁·尼禄：对，也许不是，但在社交场合互相拉扯，“我们很棒，我们是最好的”，增长在哪里？
If you're already great, where is the need for growth?
如果你已经很优秀了，那还需要成长吗？
Dante did not see Gavin's show in mid June of this summer, when the guy who organized the rally in Charlottesville, Jason Kessler, joined Gavin and invited the Proud Boys to come down.
今年夏天六月中旬，但丁没有看到加文的演出，当时在夏洛茨维尔组织集会的贾森·凯斯勒 (Jason Kessler) 加入了加文的行列，并邀请骄傲男孩们下来。
We've got Jason Kessler on the line, right?
我们已经接到杰森·凯斯勒的电话了，对吧？
Is he still there?
他还在吗？
He's over there in Virginia, near Washington DC.
他在弗吉尼亚州，靠近华盛顿特区。
Where are you?
你在哪里？
Yeah, I'm here in Charlottesville, Virginia, where we're going to have the Unite the Right rally on August 12th.
是的，我现在在弗吉尼亚州夏洛茨维尔，我们将于 8 月 12 日在那里举行“团结右翼”集会。
It's going to be international news, so you won't forget it.
这将是国际新闻，所以你不会忘记它。
Charlottesville, Virginia.
弗吉尼亚州夏洛茨维尔。
OK, we will not forget Charlottesville, Virginia.
好吧，我们不会忘记弗吉尼亚州夏洛茨维尔。
Jason was just getting to know the Proud Boys chapter in Virginia.
杰森刚刚开始了解弗吉尼亚州的骄傲男孩分会。
He and Gavin talked about that and some ideas they have in common.
他和加文讨论了这一点以及他们的一些共同想法。
I want to stand up for white people.
我想为白人挺身而出。
I want to stand up for Western civilization.
我想捍卫西方文明。
I want to stand up for men.
我想为男人挺身而出。
I want to stand up for Christians.
我想为基督徒挺身而出。
I'm against immigration.
我反对移民。
Jason Kessler These are the kind of speech that are outlawed.
贾森·凯斯勒 (Jason Kessler) 这些言论都是违法的。
Shortly after that it seems Jason became a Proud Boy himself, second degree.
不久之后，杰森似乎成为了一名骄傲男孩，二等奖。
Punches, breakfast cereals.
潘趣酒、早餐麦片。
Thanks for coming on the show.
感谢您来到节目。
I like you more than a friend.
我比朋友更喜欢你。
Good to be with you, Gavin.
很高兴和你在一起，加文。
Zoe Chace That's what Gavin always says at the end of an interview for some reason.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）出于某种原因，加文在采访结束时总是这么说。
He was unsure whether to endorse this event or not.
他不确定是否支持这项活动。
He's a nice boy.
他是一个好男孩。
I go back and forth on that thing.
我在这件事上反复思考。
It has Confederate flags on it and stuff.
上面有邦联旗帜之类的东西。
On the one hand, I'm not-- I'm not scared of being associated with Richard Spencer.
一方面，我并不害怕与理查德·斯宾塞联系在一起。
On the other hand--
另一方面——
Richard Spencer is a famous white nationalist leader.
理查德·斯宾塞是著名的白人民族主义领袖。
On the other hand, I want to get back to what we're really about, which is beer.
另一方面，我想回到我们真正的目的，那就是啤酒。
We know now, of course, how that rally turned out.
当然，我们现在知道这次反弹的结果如何。
Tiki torches, actual Nazis, and white supremacists, and then a woman was killed.
提基火把、真正的纳粹分子和白人至上主义者，然后一名妇女被杀。
After it happened, Gavin McInnes insisted that event had nothing to do with the Proud Boys.
事件发生后，加文·麦金尼斯坚称该事件与“骄傲男孩”无关。
He did not go.
他没有去。
As it got closer, he told the Proud Boys not to go, because it seemed like white supremacists were going to be involved.
随着时间越来越近，他告诉骄傲男孩们不要去，因为白人至上主义者似乎会参与其中。
They were.
他们是。
According to Gavin, any Proud Boy who went to the event-- we know there were at least two-- got kicked out of the Proud Boys.
根据加文的说法，任何参加活动的“骄傲男孩”——我们知道至少有两个——都会被踢出“骄傲男孩”。
And Gavin now says the guy who organized the rally, Jason Kessler, is not a Proud Boy, never was, and was spying on them.
加文现在说，组织这次集会的杰森·凯斯勒不是一个骄傲的男孩，从来都不是，而且还在监视他们。
But Kessler has told us he was a member of the group.
但凯斯勒告诉我们他是该组织的成员。
He was going to meetings, and there's video of him going through the second degree initiation-- getting punched and yelling out breakfast cereals.
他要去参加会议，有一段视频显示他正在经历二级启蒙——挨打并大喊早餐麦片。
In any case, Gavin had him back on the show to yell at him.
无论如何，加文让他回到节目中对他大喊大叫。
And I think this blood, the blood of this girl, I mean, it's obviously on the hands of the guy driving the car, but it's also on your hands!
我认为这些血，这个女孩的血，我的意思是，它显然在开车的人的手上，但它也在你的手上！
No, that's absolutely not!
不，绝对不是！
And you're trying to cuck and save your own ass!
而你却在试图拯救自己的屁股！
No, I'm not!
不，我不是！
When the mayor said no permit, you knew a fight was going to go down!
当市长拒绝许可时，你就知道一场战斗即将爆发！
You cuck yourself for people to save your marriage or your reputation, whatever.
为了挽救你的婚姻或你的名誉，你会为了别人而出丑。
And it's just not right, man.
这就是不对的，伙计。
You brought me up here to be a patsy for you, just like the Charlottesville government.
你把我带到这里来是为了给你当替罪羊，就像夏洛茨维尔政府一样。
Oh, I'm saying the exact opposite.
哦，我说的恰恰相反。
I'm suspicious of you--
我怀疑你——
Gavin accepts absolutely no responsibility for some of the guys in his group turning alt-right or white supremacist-esque.
加文对于他的团队中的一些人转向另类右翼或白人至上主义风格绝对不承担任何责任。
Even Sal from the beginning of this story, that Long Island Proud Boy I met at the bar, he went to Charlottesville.
就连故事一开始的萨尔，我在酒吧遇到的那个长岛骄傲男孩，他也去了夏洛茨维尔。
He took a selfie with David Duke and tweeted it.
他与大卫·杜克拍了一张自拍照并将其发布到推特上。
He's out of the group now.
他现在已经退出小组了。
The Proud Boys have zero culpability, not just with his drift right but with the far right in general.
骄傲男孩的罪责为零，不仅是他的右倾倾向，而且是整个极右派的罪责。
And I would argue, if you're looking for someone to blame, that's the leftist media constantly crapping on these young men and telling them that they're evil and that they suck, and I think that the liberal media banding around the word "Nazi" to where it means 50% of the population, is making a lot of young men revolt and go, "Yeah, you know what?
我想说，如果你要找谁来指责，那就是左翼媒体不断地攻击这些年轻人，告诉他们他们是邪恶的，他们很糟糕，我认为自由派媒体围绕着“纳粹”这个词，它意味着50%的人口，正在让很多年轻人反抗，然后说，“是的，你知道吗？
I am.
我是。
How's that, bitch?" I'm not talking to you, calling you a bitch, by the way.
怎么样，贱人？”顺便说一句，我不是在跟你说话，也不是说你是个婊子。
I know.
我知道。
Fact is, there's overlap between what the Proud Boys espouse and what white supremacist groups believe.
事实是，“骄傲男孩”所拥护的内容与白人至上主义团体的信仰之间存在重叠。
I ran through the list for Gavin.
我帮加文浏览了这份清单。
"Our culture is better than yours.
“我们的文化比你们的更好。
Our women need to stay home and make more babies.
我们的女性需要呆在家里生更多的孩子。
Our country has no more space for immigrants.
我们的国家已经没有更多的空间容纳移民。
We are being persecuted." Those are your ideas.
我们正在遭受迫害。”这些是你的想法。
Those are ideas I see in white supremacist groups.
这些是我在白人至上主义团体中看到的想法。
Do you see that you guys have those same ideas?
看到这里，你们是不是也有同样的想法呢？
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
And that's the plight of the right in many ways.
从很多方面来说，这就是右翼的困境。
This is why William F Buckley had to struggle hard to get Nazis out of National Review.
这就是为什么威廉·F·巴克利必须努力奋斗才能将纳粹从《国家评论》中剔除。
They get attracted to this.
他们被这个吸引。
But to sort of glom on all this pattern and try to suck everyone into Charlottesville, including the president, is insane.
但是，对所有这些模式进行暗淡，并试图将包括总统在内的所有人都吸引到夏洛茨维尔，这是疯狂的。
It's an obsession.
这是一种痴迷。
It's a compulsion.
这是一种强迫。
You're falling into the logical fallacy of all cats are mammals, all dogs are mammals, all cats are dogs.
你陷入了“所有猫都是哺乳动物，所有狗都是哺乳动物，所有猫都是狗”的逻辑谬误。
I think what I've documented is that when you have a group that is founded in part around male resentment and aggrievement without racism--
我认为我所记录的是，当你有一个部分建立在男性怨恨和不满而没有种族主义的团体时——
It's not founded around male resentment.
它不是建立在男性怨恨的基础上的。
Some people are skipping the "without racism" part.
有些人跳过了“没有种族主义”部分。
And that's what I'm seeing.
这就是我所看到的。
I know that's your thesis.
我知道那是你的论文。
And I'm telling you you're totally and utterly wrong.
我告诉你你完全错了。
I'm telling you, Zoe, your entire angle is wrong.
我告诉你，佐伊，你的整个角度都是错误的。
Because you found some similarities, because you want to link this to Charlottesville.
因为您发现了一些相似之处，因为您想将其链接到夏洛茨维尔。
There was no Proud Boys contingent at that thing.
在那件事上没有骄傲男孩队伍。
I'm afraid there's no angle here.
恐怕这里没有角度。
And the angle of the Proud Boys is not resentment.
而骄傲男孩的角度并不是怨恨。
It's not this animosity.
不是这个仇恨。
It's just another men's club!
这只是另一个男子俱乐部！
Dante didn't know that the guy who organized the Charlottesville rally had been a member of the Proud Boys, and that he'd gone on Gavin's show promoting it.
但丁不知道组织夏洛茨维尔集会的人是骄傲男孩的成员，而且他还参加了加文的节目宣传集会。
I was the one who told him that during our interview.
我是在采访中告诉他这一点的人。
He had a hard time with it.
他很难受。
That makes my stomach kind of queasy.
这让我的胃有点反胃。
Really.
真的。
Like, man.
就像，伙计。
Well, the first thing I'm thinking about is, I gotta get a cover-up for this tattoo.
好吧，我想到的第一件事是，我必须为这个纹身遮盖起来。
That's got to happen immediately.
这必须立即发生。
Just because there's a Jason Kessler or there's a Sal, like, does that mean that there's a slippery slope with all these Proud Boys gonna tumble down it?
仅仅因为有杰森·凯斯勒（Jason Kessler）或萨尔（Sal），就意味着有一个滑坡，所有这些骄傲的男孩都会跌倒吗？
I think a lot of them could.
我想他们中的很多人都可以。
I think it could.
我认为可以。
I think they're susceptible to it.
我认为他们很容易受到影响。
I think given the right combination of things happening and the right timing, yeah.
我认为，考虑到发生的事情的正确组合和正确的时机，是的。
Well, what is it about that group that created that slippery slope?
那么，那个造成滑坡的团体到底是怎么回事呢？
The perception of being disenfranchised.
被剥夺权利的感觉。
Not even the reality of it.
甚至不是它的现实。
The fact that you can't just do-- just being a mediocre white dude gets you certain things.
事实上，你不能仅仅做一个平庸的白人就能让你得到某些东西。
I did talk to guys who were in it for the beer and the friendship and the no-wank solidarity, but also obviously, guys who were in it for "the West is the best." And as Dante says, that's not such a big jump over to "white people are the best." Which really upsets him.
我确实和那些为了啤酒、友谊和不手淫的团结而参与其中的人交谈过，但显然，那些因为“西方是最好的”而参与其中的人。正如但丁所说，这并不是一个很大的跳跃，“白人是最好的”。这真的让他很不高兴。
He told me this story, that the very first time Dante had Gavin on his podcast, like back two years ago now, they sat down, he and Gavin, and started talking about politics.
他告诉我这个故事，当但丁第一次让加文出现在他的播客上时，就像两年前一样，他们坐下来，他和加文，开始谈论政治。
I said, "you know what's interesting is how confident you are about your ideas." And I go, "in general, white dudes that have these ideas, you're so confident about this, but you've never been right on the ethical side of history ever, in the course of history.
我说：“你知道，有趣的是你对自己的想法有多自信。”我说，“总的来说，有这些想法的白人，你们对此非常有信心，但在历史的进程中，你们从来没有在历史的道德方面是正确的。
Coming here and taking the land from the Indians and genocide of Indians, when you talk about the Atlantic slave trade, then when you talk about the intern-- Japanese internment camps.
来到这里，从印第安人手中夺取土地，对印第安人进行种族灭绝，当你谈论大西洋奴隶贸易时，然后当你谈论实习生——日本拘留营时。
You have Jim Crow.
你有吉姆·克劳。
Then you have the mass incarceration.
然后就是大规模监禁。
You have police brutality."
你们有警察的暴力行为。”
And I go, "every time you come up with one of these ideas, you always think you're right, but you're wrong every time in history." I go, "just like this Muslim ban thing that you guys, or deporting the Mexicans, you're sure about this.
我说，“每次你提出这些想法时，你总是认为自己是对的，但历史上每次你都是错的。”我说，“就像你们的穆斯林禁令，或者驱逐墨西哥人一样，你们对此很确定。
But you are never right.
但你永远都是对的。
Never in history have you been right.
历史上你从来没有说对过。
And history has always shown that because of your lack of-- your insensitivity, your lack of empathy, you don't see it from the oppressed position.
历史一直表明，由于你缺乏——你的麻木不仁，你缺乏同理心，你无法从被压迫的立场来看待它。
You think you're right, and you have the confidence of somebody who is always right when you're always wrong, just never been right."
你认为你是对的，当你总是错的时候，你会得到一个永远对的人的信任，只是从来没有正确过。”
And he kind of was like, "yeah, that's a good point." After that, we never really talked about politics.
他有点像，“是的，这是一个很好的观点。”从那以后，我们就再也没有真正谈论过政治。
This is basically the opposite of "the West is the best," obviously.
显然，这基本上与“西方是最好的”相反。
Dante is definitely upset about Charlottesville.
但丁肯定对夏洛茨维尔感到不安。
He's upset someone died.
有人去世了，他很伤心。
He's upset about Nazis.
他对纳粹感到不安。
But in the mix of what's frustrating Dante right now is, he feels like the guys misunderstood no-wanks.
但现在让但丁感到沮丧的是，他觉得这些家伙误解了“不手淫”。
And the thing they misunderstood about no-wanks is the same thing he thinks they misunderstand about history.
他们对“不手淫”的误解与他认为他们对历史的误解是一样的。
They leave out the empathy.
他们忽略了同理心。
No-wanks, as Dante saw it, was supposed to lead to a friendlier, more understanding, and more inclusive world.
但丁认为，不手淫应该会带来一个更友好、更理解、更包容的世界。
Or kinda.
或者有点。
I would say "empathy." I would talk about empathy.
我会说“同理心”。我想谈谈同理心。
I started to talk about empathy, understanding the need to see, see it from a woman's perspective.
我开始谈论同理心，理解需要从女性的角度看待它。
Because how do you-- how do you-- how do you get a woman and have a real intimate relationship if you don't have empathy for what she's going through?
因为如果你对她正在经历的事情没有同情心，你如何——你如何——如何获得一个女人并建立真正的亲密关系？
Look, I think the anti-pc culture is-- I think that that's a reasonable thing.
听着，我认为反电脑文化是——我认为这是一个合理的事情。
I think it has gone nuts.
我认为它已经疯了。
I mean, I'm a comic.
我的意思是，我是一个喜剧演员。
I want to be able to say what I want to say.
我希望能够说出我想说的话。
Yeah.
是的。
Dante Nero But to the same token, you cannot not have the empathy to know that there are historical references to the reason why you can't say the things that you want to say.
但丁·尼禄 但出于同样的原因，你不可能没有同理心，知道历史上有关于你不能说出你想说的话的原因。
Maybe those Charlottesville guys should have stayed at home wanking, Dante says.
但丁说，也许那些夏洛茨维尔的家伙应该留在家里自慰。
Then they wouldn't have taken the initiative to go show up at a Nazi rally.
那么他们就不会主动去参加纳粹集会了。
Zoe Chace is one of the producers of our program.
佐伊·查斯是我们节目的制作人之一。
Coming up, a grudge match between two men, one black, one white, and where that leads.
即将到来的是两个男人之间的恩怨比赛，一个黑人，一个白人，以及结果。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, White Haze.
今天的节目是《白雾》。
We try to make sense of all those overlapping groups that marched in Charlottesville, the fuzzy mix of alt-right and alt-light, and all the others that were there, and how people who say that they are not racist and not white supremacists have ended up in a melting pot with people who are.
我们试图理解在夏洛茨维尔游行的所有那些重叠的团体，另类右翼和另类轻派的模糊混合，以及在那里的所有其他人，以及那些自称不是种族主义者和白人至上主义者的人如何最终与那些种族主义者和白人至上主义者一起陷入了熔炉。
One of the things that we wondered here on our show after Charlottesville is why are there so many of these little groups?
在夏洛茨维尔之后，我们在节目中想知道的一件事是为什么有这么多这样的小团体？
Like, why are there a lot of them?
比如，为什么有这么多？
Why are they small?
为什么它们很小？
Like, why isn't there some big umbrella organization to advance their interests?
比如，为什么没有一些大型的伞式组织来促进他们的利益呢？
And we were surprised to learn that for decades in the white power movement, this was a strategy.
我们惊讶地发现，几十年来，在白人权力运动中，这是一种策略。
It was an actual strategy.
这是一个实际的策略。
And it was put into place in the 1980s.
它于 20 世纪 80 年代实施。
The strategy was called "leaderless resistance." And the white power movement adopted it because the FBI and federal law enforcement were successfully planting informants and covert agents inside the ranks.
该战略被称为“无领导抵抗”。白人权力运动之所以采用它，是因为联邦调查局和联邦执法部门成功地在队伍中安插了线人和秘密特工。
So leaderless resistance is a model of cell terrorism in which each activist and cell is supposed to act without direct communication with any other cell or with movement leadership.
因此，无领导的抵抗是细胞恐怖主义的一种模式，其中每个活动家和细胞都应该在不与任何其他细胞或运动领导层直接沟通的情况下采取行动。
Kathleen Belew is a historian at the University of Chicago, and she's written about this period in the '70s and '80s and the white power movement for a book that's coming out next year.
凯瑟琳·贝卢 (Kathleen Belew) 是芝加哥大学的历史学家，她为明年出版的一本书撰写了有关 70 年代和 80 年代这段时期以及白人权力运动的文章。
She says with leaderless resistance, people all over the country were reading the same propaganda, the same kind of playbook, if you will.
她说，在没有领导者的抵抗下，全国各地的人们都在阅读同样的宣传，同样的剧本，如果你愿意的话。
But they all acted on their own.
但他们都是自己行动的。
They were uncoordinated.
他们不协调。
She says the idea for leaderless resistance was popularized by a man named Louis Beam, who was in the Klan and in the group Aryan Nations in 1983.
她说，无领导抵抗的想法是由一位名叫路易斯·比姆 (Louis Beam) 的人推广的，他是 1983 年三K党和雅利安民族组织的成员。
She says we know how he sent out the memo to the rest of the movement on this.
她说我们知道他是如何向运动的其他成员发送有关此事的备忘录的。
There's an essay called Leaderless Resistance that's published in a collection of essays called Essays of a Klansman.
有一篇名为《无领导的抵抗》的文章发表在名为《三K党人随笔》的文章集中。
So it was printed in '83, '89.
所以它是在83年、89年印刷的。
So he publishes it in a book.
所以他将其出版在一本书中。
Is there also, like, a meeting where they all come together, and they discuss, and they take a vote, and they're like, "yes, that's what we're going to do."
是否还有一个会议，让他们聚集在一起进行讨论，进行投票，然后他们会说：“是的，这就是我们要做的。”
So whether there is a vote is not clear, but there is a meeting.
所以是否有投票还不清楚，但有会议。
There is a meeting called the Aryan Nations World Congress.
有一个会议称为雅利安国家世界大会。
And this had been happening since the 1970s at the Hayden Lake compound in Idaho, which is where Aryan Nations is located.
自 20 世纪 70 年代以来，这种情况一直在爱达荷州的海登湖大院发生，这里也是雅利安民族组织的所在地。
And the World Congress is both a political meeting and a social meeting.
世界大会既是一次政治会议，也是一次社会会议。
So there are fiery speeches about any number of causes important to this movement, and then there's also a big spaghetti dinner and volleyball games.
因此，人们对这场运动的许多重要原因进行了激烈的演讲，然后还有一顿丰盛的意大利面晚餐和排球比赛。
At the meeting--
会议上——
Can we just pause?
我们可以暂停一下吗？
What do we know about the spaghetti dinners and the volleyball games?
我们对意大利面晚餐和排球比赛了解多少？
People talk about the spaghetti dinners.
人们谈论意大利面晚餐。
The spaghetti dinners turn out to be a really important part of it, because it's sort of how the social life of the movement is maintained.
事实证明，意大利面晚餐是其中非常重要的一部分，因为这在某种程度上是维持运动社交生活的方式。
And one of the interesting things about this is that to have the spaghetti dinners, you really need to have the participation of women.
有趣的事情之一是，要做意大利面晚餐，确实需要女性的参与。
And Mrs. Butler, who is the wife of the leader of Aryan Nations, is in charge of the spaghetti.
巴特勒夫人是雅利安国家领导人的妻子，她负责意大利面。
It's interesting thinking about, like, they're celebrating their white heritage.
想想他们正在庆祝他们的白人传统，这很有趣。
It makes me think about how for a period in this country Italians weren't included in that heritage, were they?
这让我思考，在这个国家的一段时期内，意大利人为何没有被纳入这一传统之中，不是吗？
Indeed.
的确。
And actually, yes, there are a number of recipes that turn up in the women's publication of this movement that are similarly eyebrow-raising in that way.
事实上，是的，在这场运动的女性出版物中出现了许多同样令人惊讶的食谱。
So for instance, one of the major, major women's circulars that has columns in it called From the Mouths of Little Aryans, and is a pretty apocalyptic magazine, actually.
举个例子，一份非常非常重要的女性杂志，其中有一个名为《来自小雅利安人之口》的专栏，实际上是一本相当具有世界末日色彩的杂志。
Like, that magazine argues that women will actually have to fight in a race war.
比如，该杂志认为女性实际上必须参加种族战争。
They also have recipes for a taco pizza.
他们还有炸玉米饼披萨的食谱。
OK, we digress.
好吧，我们离题了。
Belew says the FBI believes leaderless resistance was actually discussed at this event.
贝卢说，联邦调查局认为这次活动实际上讨论了无领导抵抗。
Several people from the movement testified that it was.
该运动的几位人士证实确实如此。
Others denied there was a real plan like this.
其他人否认有这样的真正计划。
But what is clear is that after this meeting in July of 1983, something changes.
但显而易见的是，1983 年 7 月的这次会议之后，情况发生了变化。
Because their strategy changes very notably.
因为他们的策略变化非常显着。
They spend a lot less time on coordinated public rallies and political campaigns, although that activity continues.
他们在协调的公众集会和政治运动上花费的时间要少得多，尽管这种活动仍在继续。
And the violence and underground activity immediately ticks up.
暴力和地下活动立即加剧。
Out of that come incidents like the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995, in which 168 people died.
由此发生了 1995 年俄克拉荷马城爆炸事件，造成 168 人死亡。
Which Belew says is often mistakenly thought of as the work of a lone bomber, Timothy McVeigh and a co-conspirator, but fits entirely the sort of thing that an activist would do as part of leaderless resistance.
贝卢所说的内容经常被错误地认为是蒂莫西·麦克维和同谋的孤独炸弹袭击者所为，但完全符合激进分子在无领导抵抗中所做的事情。
And this is the way that the white power movement worked for decades, small groups, people staying below the radar to avoid attention and avoid prosecution.
这就是白人权力运动几十年来的运作方式，小团体，人们躲在雷达之下以避免关注和起诉。
And that is what is changing today.
这就是今天正在发生的变化。
Talking to people who are knowledgeable about what's going on with white nationalist groups today, including researchers at the Southern Poverty Law Center, what they say is that what's happening today is that leaders are stepping forward.
在与了解当今白人民族主义团体现状的人（包括南方贫困法律中心的研究人员）交谈时，他们说，今天发生的事情是领导人正在挺身而出。
They are becoming public figures.
他们正在成为公众人物。
And the separate little groups, they are, in fact, trying to band together.
事实上，这些独立的小团体正试图联合起来。
Maybe not to become one big organization, but to work together when it's helpful.
也许不是为了成为一个大组织，而是在有帮助的时候一起工作。
The name of the rally in Charlottesville, after all, was "Unite the Right." This was a public rally where groups came together in common cause, where they were proudly visible.
毕竟，夏洛茨维尔集会的名称是“团结右翼”。这是一次公开集会，各团体为了共同的目标聚集在一起，他们自豪地出现在人们面前。
And that's what's different about this new incarnation of the white nationalist movement today.
这就是今天白人民族主义运动的新化身的不同之处。
That's what's different from the last few decades.
这就是与过去几十年不同的地方。
And now we have arrived at Act Two of our program, Act Two, Phone Calls to an Undisclosed Location.
现在我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，给秘密地点打电话。
OK, so remember back during Act One, during Zoe's story, when the guy who organized the rally in Charlottesville, after the rally, he went on to Gavin McInnes's show, and the two of them argued over who was to blame for the death of that woman who was killed at the rally.
好吧，记得在第一幕中，在佐伊的故事中，当在夏洛茨维尔组织集会的那个人，在集会结束后，他继续观看加文·麦金尼斯的表演，他们两个争论谁应该为集会上被杀的那个女人的死负责。
And Gavin McInnes was pretty direct.
加文·麦金尼斯非常直接。
I think this blood, the blood of this girl, I mean, it's obviously on the hands of the guy driving the car, but it's also on your hands!
我想这个血，这个女孩的血，我的意思是，它显然是在开车的家伙的手上，但它也在你的手上！
No, that's absolutely not.
不，那绝对不是。
And you're trying to cuck and save your own ass.
而你却在试图拯救自己的屁股。
No, I'm not!
不，我不是！
Ira Glass The organizer of the rally, Jason Kessler, said he could not be blamed for that death.
集会的组织者贾森·凯斯勒(Jason Kessler)表示，他不能为这起死亡事件负责。
And one of our producers, Robyn Semien, saw this quote that Kessler gave somewhere else, where he talked about the same thing, about who was to blame.
我们的一位制片人罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 看到了凯斯勒在其他地方引用的这句话，他在其中谈到了同样的事情，关于谁应该受到责备。
And the quote was really interesting.
这句话真的很有趣。
In that quote, Jason Kessler put the blame on somebody else, somebody very, very specific.
在那句话中，贾森·凯斯勒将责任归咎于其他人，一个非常非常具体的人。
Here's Robyn.
这是罗宾。
I read about it in an article days after the rally.
集会几天后，我在一篇文章中读到了这一消息。
When asked what prompted him to organize the rally, Jason Kessler said, "I didn't do it.
当被问及是什么促使他组织这次集会时，贾森·凯斯勒说：“我没有这么做。
Wes Bellamy did." Wes Bellamy is the vice mayor of Charlottesville, and the only black member of city council.
韦斯·贝拉米做到了。”韦斯·贝拉米是夏洛茨维尔市副市长，也是市议会唯一的黑人成员。
Jason Kessler put the blame on him, not the mayor, not city council, not the police.
贾森·凯斯勒将责任归咎于他，而不是市长、市议会、警察。
Wes Bellamy.
韦斯·贝拉米。
I knew about Wes Bellamy before I read that quote, because I saw him on TV that Saturday, after the president's Many Sides press conference.
在读到这句话之前我就知道韦斯·贝拉米了，因为我在周六总统的多方新闻发布会之后在电视上看到了他。
Was Bellamy was doing interviews.
贝拉米正在接受采访吗？
He's handsome, black, young, and memorably, he was in a white t-shirt that said "Menace 2 Supremacy" on it.
他很英俊，黑人，年轻，令人难忘的是，他穿着一件白色T恤，上面写着“威胁2霸权”。
The "to" like the number two in Menace 2 Society.
“to”就像《威胁2：社会》中的第二个一样。
He stood out.
他脱颖而出。
I liked it.
我喜欢它。
Kessler lives in Charlottesville, and it seems like he's had a maniacal focus on Bellamy for almost a year.
凯斯勒住在夏洛茨维尔，他似乎近一年来一直疯狂地关注贝拉米。
It started with the statue.
事情是从雕像开始的。
Bellamy wanted to remove it.
贝拉米想把它去掉。
Kessler got pissed.
凯斯勒生气了。
Then a bunch happened.
然后发生了一堆事情。
When Bellamy and others protested racism outside an Italian restaurant, Kessler showed up and ate pasta in their faces.
当贝拉米和其他人在一家意大利餐厅外抗议种族主义时，凯斯勒出现并当着他们的面吃意大利面。
Kessler exposed scandalous tweets from Bellamy's old Twitter account, which cost Bellamy his jobs at a high school and at the State Board of Education.
凯斯勒曝光了贝拉米旧 Twitter 帐户中的丑闻推文，导致贝拉米在一所高中和州教育委员会失去了工作。
But Bellamy's supporters didn't seem to care.
但贝拉米的支持者似乎并不在意。
Back and forth, many failed attempts by Jason Kessler to undo Wes Bellamy, including, last December, Kessler showing up at a council meeting to look Bellamy in the eye while blaring Tom Petty's I Won't Back Down from a portable speaker.
杰森·凯斯勒曾多次试图推翻韦斯·贝拉米，但均以失败告终，包括去年 12 月，凯斯勒出现在一次理事会会议上，一边用便携式扬声器大声播放汤姆·佩蒂的《我不会退缩》，一边直视贝拉米的眼睛。
So I wanted Wes Bellamy to talk to me about all that.
所以我想让韦斯·贝拉米和我谈谈这一切。
JK.
JK。
Robyn Semien Are you on an initial basis?
Robyn Semien 您是初次接触吗？
No, I mean, I don't really talk about that gentleman.
不，我的意思是，我并不是真的谈论那位先生。
He's free to do what he wants to do.
他可以自由地做他想做的事。
I had told him I wanted to talk about the rally and the events leading up to the rally, but I only realized sitting in front of him that I assumed he knew that meant talking about the man who organized the rally and his history with him.
我告诉他我想谈论这次集会以及导致集会的事件，但我才意识到坐在他面前，我以为他知道这意味着谈论组织集会的人以及他与他的历史。
I ran that Kessler quote by him, or where Kessler said he organized the rally because of Bellamy.
我引用了凯斯勒的话，或者凯斯勒说他组织这次集会是因为贝拉米。
He said, "I didn't do it.
他说：“我没有这么做。
Wes Bellamy did it."
韦斯·贝拉米做到了。”
All right.
好的。
I didn't see that.
我没看到。
I don't really, again, pay attention, a lot of attention to what he says, but--
我并没有真正注意，非常注意他说的话，但是——
Why would you say that?
你为什么这么说？
Wes Bellamy They, he and his posse, they firmly believe that I am-- I mean, they've said this on several occasions.
韦斯·贝拉米：他们，他和他的团队，他们坚信我——我的意思是，他们已经说过好几次了。
I'm a huge threat to the quote, unquote, "white race." I'm a threat to them having what is theirs.
我对“白人种族”这句话构成了巨大的威胁。我对他们拥有属于他们的东西构成威胁。
Like, I'm taking it away.
就像，我要把它拿走。
I'm a threat to what they believe to be the pure white race and Western civilization, and the way in which they do things.
我对他们所认为的纯白种族和西方文明以及他们的行事方式构成了威胁。
I'm a black male, who's 30, who is very vocal, who is in this position, who has a lot of support.
我是一名黑人男性，30 岁，非常敢于发声，担任这个职位，得到了很多支持。
And if that scares them, if that makes them believe this is my fault, that just, like, shows what kind of people they are.
如果这让他们害怕，如果这让他们相信这是我的错，那就表明他们是什么样的人。
You have to take accountability.
你必须承担责任。
Wes Bellamy didn't plan an alt-right rally.
韦斯·贝拉米并没有计划举行另类右翼集会。
He was candid and had lots to say, until I mentioned I'd be talking to Kessler for my story, and then his whole body changed.
他很坦诚，有很多话要说，直到我提到我要和凯斯勒谈谈我的故事，然后他整个人都变了。
He looked annoyed, stopped looking me in the eye.
他看起来很生气，不再看我的眼睛。
I'm talking to Kessler tomorrow, and that's fine.
明天我要和凯斯勒谈话，那很好。
You're gonna put us in a story together?
你要把我们放在一起写一个故事吗？
You didn't tell me that.
你没有告诉我这一点。
OK.
好的。
So we got 10 minutes.
所以我们有 10 分钟的时间。
That's it.
就是这样。
Can I come back to you after, if I have more questions after him?
如果我在他之后还有其他问题，我可以再联系您吗？
Probably not, probably not.
可能不会，可能不会。
It's no disrespect intended.
这并没有不尊重的意思。
I just-- yo, this is way bigger than Kessler.
我只是——哟，这比凯斯勒大得多。
This is way bigger than, like, Kessler.
这比凯斯勒大得多。
And I normally don't even spend-- I don't give him, like, that time.
我通常甚至不会花——我不会给他那样的时间。
I don't think you quite understand.
我认为你不太明白。
When you give these individuals that kind of time, that legitimizes them.
当你给这些人这样的时间时，他们就合法化了。
That's what they want is the attention.
他们想要的就是关注。
I get that.
我明白了。
But ignoring Jason Kessler isn't going to make him go away.
但忽视贾森·凯斯勒并不会让他离开。
And I don't have the same job as Wes Bellamy.
我和韦斯·贝拉米没有同样的工作。
He's a politician with a political vision for Charlottesville.
他是一位对夏洛茨维尔有政治远见的政治家。
It makes sense for him to avoid talking about Jason Kessler.
他避免谈论贾森·凯斯勒是有道理的。
He's not going to be derailed by one guy.
他不会被一个男人出轨。
But I'm in Charlottesville because Jason Kessler wrote the blueprint for the rally.
但我来到夏洛茨维尔是因为贾森·凯斯勒（Jason Kessler）写了集会的蓝图。
And at this point, he's in hiding somewhere, presumably planning something.
此时，他正躲在某个地方，大概正在计划着什么。
I wanted to know what's coming and how dangerous he is.
我想知道接下来会发生什么以及他有多危险。
And if this story was true, that Jason Kessler's beef with this one guy motivated him to organize this rally, I wanted to understand that too.
如果这个故事是真的，杰森·凯斯勒与这个人的争执促使他组织了这次集会，我也想了解这一点。
Before I spoke to Kessler, I went back and forth on telling him I'm black.
在我和凯斯勒说话之前，我反复告诉他我是黑人。
I really chewed on it, wondered what was more honest.
我认真地思考了一下，想知道什么是更诚实的。
Tell him or don't tell him?
告诉他还是不告诉他？
Maybe he'll look me up.
也许他会来找我。
Maybe he'll ask me.
也许他会问我。
I didn't know.
我不知道。
It'll come up, I thought.
我想，它会出现的。
And I don't usually start interviews with "hi, I'm black Robyn from This American Life." So I didn't do it with this one either.
我通常不会以“嗨，我是《美国生活》中的黑人罗宾”来开始采访。所以我也没用这个。
I've been reading that you're in hiding.
我一直在读到你正在躲藏。
Well, I'm not announcing where I'm at.
好吧，我不会宣布我在哪里。
[CHUCKLING] I mean, when you have a government which won't protect you, you know, from mob violence, you can't just announce where you're going to be every moment.
[咯咯笑]我的意思是，当你的政府无法保护你免受暴民暴力时，你就不能每时每刻都宣布你要去哪里。
Are you saying you've been getting threats?
你是说你受到威胁了吗？
Yeah, I've been getting constant death threats, constant lewd stuff, constant, you know, abuse from people.
是的，我不断收到死亡威胁、不断的猥亵内容、不断的、你知道的、来自人们的辱骂。
I wanted to ask him about Wes Bellamy, but we got on the phone and he just started going.
我想问他关于韦斯·贝拉米的事，但我们通了电话，他就开始走了。
He talked for 40 minutes, mostly about how he did have a plan for the rally, but it was thwarted by the state of emergency.
他谈了 40 分钟，主要讲述了他如何制定集会计划，但因紧急状态而受阻。
--the Constitution does not apply to me.
——宪法不适用于我。
His First Amendment right to free speech was violated.
他的第一修正案言论自由权遭到侵犯。
There was a lot of First Amendment talk.
有很多关于第一修正案的讨论。
Our First Amendment rights-- Robyn Semien He was rambly and excitable, and he talked over me a lot.
我们的第一修正案权利--Robyn Semien 他语无伦次，很兴奋，和我说了很多话。
And when I finally got to ask him about Wes Bellamy and that quote, he was even more hopped up.
当我最终向他询问韦斯·贝拉米和那句话时，他更加兴奋了。
Bellamy is against him, but it's not just Bellamy.
贝拉米反对他，但反对他的不仅仅是贝拉米。
It goes all the way up to the highest levels of Virginia government.
它一直延伸到弗吉尼亚州政府的最高层。
I don't believe that it was the police that were trying to mess up the rally.
我不相信是警察试图扰乱集会。
I think that it was--
我认为那是——
You don't?
你不这么认为吗？
Jason Kessler --government officials, including mayor Mike Signer, Vice Mayor Wes Bellamy, and Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe.
Jason Kessler——政府官员，包括市长 Mike Signer、副市长 Wes Bellamy 和弗吉尼亚州州长 Terry McAuliffe。
I asked him more questions about Wes Bellamy until it became clear-- there wasn't much there.
我问了他更多关于韦斯·贝拉米的问题，直到弄清楚——问题并不多。
Kessler's resentment of the vice mayor didn't prompt him to organize the rally.
凯斯勒对副市长的不满并没有促使他组织这次集会。
That's just something he said.
这只是他说的。
But we did talk about the rally, and his plans and expectations, which eventually led to something that was new to me, something specific about his beliefs that felt important to know.
但我们确实讨论了这次集会、他的计划和期望，这最终导致了一些对我来说是新的东西，一些关于他的信念的具体内容，感觉很重要。
When President Trump stood before the press after the weekend in Charlottesville, he said not everyone at the rally was a neo-Nazi.
特朗普总统在夏洛茨维尔周末结束后站在媒体面前时表示，并非集会上的每个人都是新纳粹分子。
Not everyone was a white supremacist.
并非每个人都是白人至上主义者。
Believe me, Not all of those people were white supremacists.
相信我，并非所有这些人都是白人至上主义者。
But even the guys who don't call themselves white supremacists believe all sorts of things that sound very close to or exactly the same as white supremacy.
但即使是那些不称自己为白人至上主义者的人也相信各种听起来与白人至上主义非常接近或完全相同的事情。
Jason, for instance, explained to me he's not a white supremacist.
例如，杰森向我解释说他不是白人至上主义者。
He's pro-white, fighting for white rights.
他支持白人，为白人权利而战。
And he organized one of the largest gatherings of white supremacists in recent memory.
他还组织了近年来最大规模的白人至上主义者集会之一。
And he said things to me like, "each race has something to be proud of.
他对我说，“每个种族都有值得骄傲的事情。
Black people's thing being--" mhm-- "basketball."
黑人的爱好是——”嗯——“篮球。”
Were you on Friday night, on the Friday night before, were you out with that crowd marching, the guys with the torches?
你是在周五晚上，还是在前周五晚上，你和那些拿着火把的人群一起游行吗？
Yes.
是的。
Robyn Semien You were marching with them?
罗宾·塞米恩（Robyn Semien）：你和他们一起游行吗？
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Robyn Semien And that was, like, a good representation of the group who you wanted at the rally the next day?
罗宾·塞米恩（Robyn Semien）：这就是你希望第二天参加集会的团体的一个很好的代表吗？
Well, not all of it.
嗯，不是全部。
I mean, there are elements of the online community which are into edgy humor.
我的意思是，在线社区中有些元素充满了尖锐的幽默感。
And I would say that some of the chants and stuff that they did were a little bit-- were in bad taste.
我想说的是，他们唱的一些口号和做的事情有点——品味很差。
Well, I think when people say "Jews will not replace us," I think that they're taking an unhappiness with the disproportionate influence and power of Jewish people at the elite levels of power in American society.
嗯，我认为当人们说“犹太人不会取代我们”时，我认为他们对犹太人在美国社会精英权力层中所具有的不成比例的影响力和权力感到不满。
They're vastly overrepresented.
他们的比例远远过高。
So when the media was reporting that people with white nationalist or white supremacist symbology were carrying torches and shouting "Jews will not replace us," you were thinking, "the media's getting it wrong because they're just-- it's a joke."
因此，当媒体报道具有白人民族主义或白人至上主义象征的人们举着火把并高喊“犹太人不会取代我们”时，你会想，“媒体错了，因为他们只是——这是一个笑话。”
What is the principle on which you oppose using torches?
您反对使用火把的原则是什么？
It was a form of protest.
这是一种抗议形式。
It was legal.
这是合法的。
It was permitted by free speech.
这是言论自由所允许的。
And it is a good optic.
这是一个很好的光学器件。
It looks interesting at night.
晚上看起来很有趣。
Kessler's a UVA grad.
凯斯勒是弗吉尼亚大学的毕业生。
He's 33.
他33岁了。
He voted for Obama.
他投票给了奥巴马。
And when he talks about what set him down this path to pro-white activism, he points to a single experience.
当他谈到是什么让他走上支持白人激进主义的道路时，他提到了一次经历。
I was surprised what a common experience it was, something that happens to people all the time, and they do not end up organizing rallies with torches.
我很惊讶这是一种常见的经历，人们经常发生这种事情，但他们最终并没有组织拿着火把的集会。
He didn't get a job he wanted.
他没有找到他想要的工作。
Here's what happened.
事情是这样的。
He didn't come from money.
他不是来自金钱。
His parents didn't go to college.
他的父母没有上过大学。
He graduated with a psych degree and student loans, and started looking for a job.
他获得了心理学学位并获得了学生贷款，并开始寻找工作。
He says he'd been working some.
他说他一直在工作。
Says for about a year he was a counselor in a mental health facility.
说他在一家精神卫生机构担任了大约一年的顾问。
So I had experience, and I tried to apply for a job at Region 10, which is the health care provider around here.
所以我有经验，我尝试申请第 10 区的工作，该区是附近的医疗保健提供者。
Mhm.
嗯。
Jason Kessler And there were two positions.
Jason Kessler 有两个位置。
There was one position, which was full time, and one which was as-needed.
有一个职位是全职的，还有一个是按需职位。
So they hired me for the as-needed thing.
所以他们根据需要雇用了我。
And I was happy about that at first, because I'd been applying for these jobs for years after I graduated, and they wouldn't even give me interviews.
一开始我对此很高兴，因为我毕业后多年来一直在申请这些工作，他们甚至不给我面试机会。
So when I showed up to the orientation, I met the woman who had been hired over me, you know, for the full-time position.
因此，当我参加入职培训时，我遇到了一位比我受聘担任全职职位的女士。
And we were all talking in this big orientation session about our experience.
在这个大型的迎新会议上，我们都在谈论我们的经历。
She said that she had no experience in the mental health care field.
她表示，自己在精神卫生保健领域没有经验。
She had worked as a dental hygienist.
她曾担任牙科保健员。
So at that point, I was pretty angry.
所以当时我非常生气。
Because I felt like I had been picked over for reasons not having anything to do with my qualifications, but having to do with identity variables.
因为我觉得我被选中的原因与我的资格无关，而是与身份变量有关。
Why did I think this?
我为什么这么想？
Because most all the people working at this mental health care facility were white women or black women.
因为在这个精神卫生保健机构工作的大多数人都是白人女性或黑人女性。
I mean, there was no-- nothing else.
我的意思是，没有——没有其他的了。
It seemed to me like there was a discrimination that was happening there.
在我看来，那里似乎存在歧视。
Was the woman who was picked over you, was she white or black?
那个被选中而不是你的女人是白人还是黑人？
She was white.
她是白人。
So I think-- I mean, the affirmative action stuff is not just about the race.
所以我认为——我的意思是，平权行动不仅仅与种族有关。
It's also about the gender issue.
这也与性别问题有关。
I suggested, maybe it wasn't discrimination.
我建议，也许这不是歧视。
Maybe the woman was a better interview, or some other thing you didn't know about.
也许那个女人是一次更好的采访，或者是一些你不知道的其他事情。
But he decided-- discrimination, something fishy, even though he admitted he didn't have proof.
但他决定——歧视，有些可疑，尽管他承认自己没有证据。
OK, so you became convinced that that was, like, an injustice.
好吧，所以你开始相信这是一种不公正。
And then you went on to work with her, right?
然后你就继续和她一起工作，对吗？
How was she?
她怎么样？
No, no, I didn't work at that job, because I found out that the hours weren't what I thought they would be.
不，不，我没有做那份工作，因为我发现工作时间不是我想象的那样。
It was only like five hours a week.
每周只有五个小时。
That's not enough to do anything.
这还不足以做任何事情。
And there was no health care, no benefits.
而且没有医疗保健，没有福利。
So I declined.
所以我拒绝了。
I wouldn't work a job where, you know, I was clearly more qualified than somebody but had been discriminated against because of some variable outside my control.
我不会从事这样的工作，你知道，我显然比其他人更有资格，但却因为一些我无法控制的变量而受到歧视。
Of course, even if he were right, this is a story that happens much more often to women and people of color than white men.
当然，即使他是对的，这个故事在女性和有色人种中发生的频率也比白人男性高得多。
But years later, this is what Kessler points to as the beginning of a real shift.
但多年后，凯斯勒指出，这是真正转变的开始。
Slighted as a man, feeling like women and blacks get all the breaks, this story about being pushed out made sense to him, and it stuck.
作为一个男人，他受到了轻视，感觉女人和黑人得到了所有的休息，这个关于被排挤的故事对他来说很有意义，并且一直存在。
And this brings me to the thing I learned from this conversation.
这让我想起了我从这次谈话中学到的东西。
From there, he made a leap I truly can't understand, a leap from that experience back then to this conclusion.
从那时起，他实现了我真正无法理解的飞跃，从当时的经历飞跃到了这个结论。
We are being replaced culturally and ethnically.
我们在文化和种族上正在被取代。
You think there's, like, a government conspiracy to replace white people culturally?
你认为政府有阴谋在文化上取代白人吗？
No, I didn't say it was a conspiracy.
不，我没说这是一个阴谋。
It is something that is happening.
这是正在发生的事情。
It's a genocide by replacement.
这是一场替代性的种族灭绝。
That's part of the UN definition of genocide, is replacing a people.
这是联合国对种族灭绝定义的一部分，即取代一个民族。
And that is what they are doing.
这就是他们正在做的事情。
They created policies starting with the 1965 Hart-Cellar Immigration Act, which gave--
他们从 1965 年《哈特地窖移民法案》开始制定政策，该法案规定——
The Hart-Cellar Act is the immigration policy that ended preferential treatment for certain European countries.
《哈特地窖法案》是终止对某些欧洲国家的优惠待遇的移民政策。
It got rid of the old policy, which favored white immigrants.
它废除了有利于白人移民的旧政策。
He's wrong, by the way, about the UN definition of genocide.
顺便说一句，他对联合国对种族灭绝的定义是错误的。
It's not replacement.
这不是替换。
Genocide, according to the UN, is violent.
根据联合国的说法，种族灭绝是暴力的。
It's the physical destruction of a people.
这是对一个民族的肉体毁灭。
But the way Kessler sees it, there's a genocide of white people, because America allows immigrants from countries all over the world.
但在凯斯勒看来，这是一场针对白人的种族灭绝，因为美国允许来自世界各地的移民。
This kind of thing doesn't happen in Africa, or Latin America, or Asia.
这种事情不会发生在非洲、拉丁美洲或亚洲。
It's only in the white countries.
这只存在于白人国家。
I don't consider America a white country?
我不认为美国是白人国家？
Why wouldn't you?
你为什么不呢？
It's been traditionally 80% to 85% white.
传统上，80% 到 85% 是白色的。
Our first immigration policy, you know, said that in order to be a citizen you had to be a white person of good character, right?
你知道，我们的第一个移民政策说，为了成为公民，你必须是品格良好的白人，对吗？
So it was explicitly a white country.
所以它显然是一个白人国家。
Like, there are traditional demographics.
就像，有传统的人口统计数据。
And when you don't respect those, you destroy a people.
当你不尊重这些人时，你就会毁灭一个民族。
"Destroy a people," "genocide." I'd never heard that before.
“消灭一个民族”、“种族灭绝”。我以前从未听说过。
I couldn't have guessed it.
我怎么也猜不到。
This is the new thing I learned from this conversation.
这是我从这次谈话中学到的新东西。
But apparently this is something lots of these groups believe in.
但显然这是许多团体所相信的。
It came up 2 and 1/2 hours in, and it kind of washed past me when it happened.
它在 2 又 1/2 小时后出现，当它发生时，它就从我身边冲走了。
But later I'd mention it almost immediately to every person I talked to about him.
但后来我几乎立即向每个与我谈论过他的人提到这件事。
The man who organized the rally in Charlottesville believes there's a genocide of white people in America.
夏洛茨维尔集会的组织者认为，美国存在着针对白人的种族灭绝。
White civil rights, discrimination against white people, white oppression-- Kessler is constantly stealing the language of the truly disenfranchised to talk about his feelings of white disenfranchisement.
白人公民权利、对白人的歧视、白人的压迫——凯斯勒不断地窃取真正被剥夺权利的人的语言来谈论他对白人被剥夺权利的感受。
He calls people racist all the time.
他总是称人们为种族主义者。
He calls Wes Bellamy a black supremacist.
他称韦斯·贝拉米为黑人至上主义者。
He calls me a racist toward white people.
他称我是针对白人的种族主义者。
I have no idea if he knew I'm black, by the way.
顺便说一句，我不知道他是否知道我是黑人。
That language is designed to have power.
该语言被设计为具有力量。
It took black Americans centuries to exact, black people who needed to communicate a message for our own survival, that we are not partial people, we are not a threat, we are not marginal, we are not invisible.
美国黑人花了几个世纪的时间才明确，黑人需要为了我们自己的生存而传达这样的信息：我们不是偏心的人，我们不是威胁，我们不是边缘人，我们不是隐形人。
We're people.
我们是人。
Those words have power, the words Jason has co-opted.
这些话是有力量的，是杰森选择的。
And they get results.
他们得到了结果。
I bet they'll get results for his movement too.
我打赌他们也会为他的行动得到结果。
We talked for four hours in two conversations.
我们两次交谈，聊了四个小时。
Jason Kessler says he's not a white supremacist, but he believes in white genocide.
贾森·凯斯勒说他不是白人至上主义者，但他相信白人种族灭绝。
And that's just as terrifying, because it takes you to the exact same place.
这同样可怕，因为它会把你带到完全相同的地方。
Namely, taking back what's yours.
也就是说，夺回属于你的东西。
I told Jason as much.
我也这么告诉杰森。
The reason that it's scary is that I don't think that even you are sure how far in over your head you are.
之所以令人恐惧，是因为我认为即使你也不确定自己的能力有多强。
And you're kind of being coy about-- like, you know the definition of a white supremacist, but you're not totally separating yourself from white supremacy.
你有点含糊其辞——就像，你知道白人至上主义者的定义，但你并没有完全将自己与白人至上主义者分开。
And white supremacy has a history of murder and killing.
白人至上有着谋杀和杀戮的历史。
White supremacy, blah, blah, blah.
白人至上，等等，等等。
That's a BS liberal term that you have been indoctrinated with.
这是一个你一直被灌输的自由主义术语。
That "white supremacy, white supremacy!" This is our country!
那“白人至上，白人至上！”这是我们的国家！
After talking to Jason Kessler suddenly this past year in America looked different to me.
在与贾森·凯斯勒交谈后，去年的美国对我来说突然看起来有所不同。
I thought for lots of people "Make America Great Again" and white attachment to Confederate symbols was about white power, white people trying to maintain their power.
我认为对很多人来说“让美国再次伟大”，白人对南方邦联标志的依恋是关于白人权力，白人试图维持自己的权力。
Just a way of saying "remember the hierarchy.
只是一种说法“记住层次结构。
Don't forget who's on top." But Jason Kessler is a guy who does not believe he has power, and he wants it.
别忘了谁在上面。”但杰森·凯斯勒是一个不相信自己拥有权力的人，但他想要权力。
Which is frightening, because it's unclear what he'll do to get it.
这很可怕，因为目前还不清楚他会做什么来得到它。
He's tweeted about a coming civil war and being one of the first to go.
他在推特上发布了即将到来的内战，并成为最先参加战争的人之一。
There was one question that I wanted to ask Kessler that I never got to, because he cut the conversation short.
有一个问题我想问凯斯勒，但一直没问到，因为他打断了谈话。
So I called him back one more time to try and ask him.
于是我又给他回了一次电话，试图询问他的情况。
At the tone, please record your message.
听到提示音后，请录制您的消息。
When you've finished recording, you may hang up or press one for more options.
完成录制后，您可以挂断电话或按其中一个以获得更多选项。
[BEEP] Robyn Semien Hey, Jason.
[BEEP] Robyn Semien 嘿，杰森。
It's Robyn.
是罗宾。
I didn't get to ask you what you wanted, what your movement was looking for in the future.
我没能问你想要什么，你的运动在未来寻求什么。
Is what you're hoping for a civil war, like a race war?
你希望发生一场内战，比如种族战争吗？
OK, let me know.
好的，请告诉我。
Bye.
再见。
[CLICK] He didn't call me back.
[点击]他没有给我回电话。
When I sent an email following up this week, asking, "Do you want a race war?
当我本周发送一封电子邮件跟进时，问道：“你想要一场种族战争吗？
What will that look like?" He responded, quote, "Ridiculous.
那会是什么样子？”他回答道：“荒谬。
Just run what you have.
只要运行你所拥有的即可。
I'm not a cartoon villain." I never thought he was.
我不是卡通反派。”我从来没想过他是。
Robyn Semien is one of the producers of our show.
罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 是我们节目的制片人之一。
Our program was produced today by our senior producer, Brian Reed.
今天我们的节目由我们的高级制片人布莱恩·里德制作。
People who put our show together include Elna Baker, Elise Bergerson, Susan Burton, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Stephanie Foo, Michele Harris, Kimberly Henderson, Chana Joffe-Walt, Mariya Karimjiee, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, BA Parker, Robyn Semien, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
制作我们节目的人员包括 Elna Baker、Elise Bergerson、Susan Burton、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Stephanie Foo、Michele Harris、Kimberly Henderson、Chana Joffe-Walt、Mariya Karimjiee、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、BA Parker、Robyn Semien、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie惠特克和黛安·吴。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he just finished learning to speak Japanese.
你知道，他刚刚学完日语。
He picked up the language in just three months, because of all the spare time he had.
由于他有大量的业余时间，他在短短三个月内就学会了这门语言。
So much spare time.
这么多空闲时间。
You know why?
你知道为什么吗？
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。