625: Essay B - This American Life
You are using an outdated browser.
您正在使用过时的浏览器。
Please upgrade your browser or activate Google Chrome Frame to improve your experience.
请升级您的浏览器或激活 Google Chrome 浏览器内嵌框架以改善您的体验。
Sign up for a free Life Partners trial, and you can watch the video “A Night of Stories and Improv.”
注册免费试用《Life Partners》，您可以观看视频“故事与即兴表演之夜”。
00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #625 | August 5, 2022 625: Essay B Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 625 集 | 2022 年 8 月 5 日 625：论文 B 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Mariya is always a little embarrassed to admit how much she loved high school.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯·玛丽亚 (Ira Glass Mariya) 总是有点不好意思承认自己有多热爱高中。
But the truth is she really loved it.
但事实是她真的很喜欢它。
This is outside Houston.
这是休斯顿郊外。
She had friends.
她有朋友。
Liked her classes and Friday night football and backyard pool parties.
喜欢她的课程、周五晚上的足球赛和后院泳池派对。
She was editor-in-chief of the school paper.
她是校报的主编。
Felt a lot of freedom.
感受到了很大的自由。
And then this disquieting thing happened during her senior year, when everybody was applying to colleges.
然后这件令人不安的事情发生在她高四的时候，当时每个人都在申请大学。
When you apply to a state school in Texas, Mariya explained to me, Texas has their own Common App.
当你申请德克萨斯州的一所公立学校时，玛丽亚向我解释说，德克萨斯州有自己的通用应用程序。
And it's only for people applying to a public university in Texas.
它仅适用于申请德克萨斯州公立大学的人。
But there were four different essay prompts.
但有四种不同的论文提示。
And one of those was Essay B.
其中之一就是论文 B。
Do you want me to read it?
你想让我读一下吗？
Ira Glass Sure.
艾拉·格拉斯 当然可以。
OK.
好的。
"Many students expand their view of the world during their time in college.
“许多学生在大学期间拓展了他们的世界观。
Such growth often results from encounters between students who have lived different cultural, economic, or academic experiences.
这种成长往往源于具有不同文化、经济或学术经历的学生之间的相遇。
With your future growth in mind, describe a potential classmate that you believe you could learn from, either within or outside a formal classroom environment.
考虑到您未来的成长，请描述您认为可以在正式课堂环境内或之外向您学习的潜在同学。
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
So they're asking a potential classmate.
所以他们正在询问一位潜在的同学。
In other words, make up a classmate who you have not met.
换句话说，就是编造一个你没见过的同学。
Yeah.
是的。
Imagine a hypothetical person who is different from you in some way.
想象一个假设的人在某些方面与你不同。
Mariya never actually answered Essay Topic B because she wanted to go to college out of state and she applied early admission.
玛丽亚实际上从未回答过论文主题 B，因为她想去州外的大学，并且她申请了提前录取。
But there were a few days in her English class during that year where the rest of the class that was applying to state schools wrote and worked on their college essays.
但那一年，她的英语课上有几天，班里申请公立学校的其他学生都在写大学论文。
Because Mariya didn't need to write any essays to get into Texas schools, the teacher asked her to help edit them.
因为玛丽亚不需要写任何论文就能进入德克萨斯州的学校，所以老师让她帮忙修改论文。
Mariya ran the school paper, so she had some skills.
玛丽亚负责校报，所以她有一些技巧。
So I was sitting in this class and I was reading all of these essays about a future hypothetical person that helps them grow.
所以我坐在这堂课上，正在阅读所有这些关于未来假设的人的文章，帮助他们成长。
And they didn't actually write about a future hypothetical person.
他们实际上并没有写一个未来的假设人。
They all wrote about me.
他们都写了关于我的事。
They all wrote about you?
他们都写了关于你的事？
Mariya Karimjee Yeah.
玛丽亚·卡里姆吉 是的。
Wait.
等等。
They were writing about you as if they hadn't met you and someday might meet someone like you?
他们写关于你的事就好像他们从未见过你一样，有一天可能会遇到像你这样的人？
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Ira Glass And then they explained all the important lessons they were going to learn from future imaginary you?
Ira Glass 然后他们解释了他们将从未来想象中的你身上学到的所有重要教训？
Yes.
是的。
But before they did that, they had to describe me.
但在此之前，他们必须先描述一下我。
And so I was reading these sentences about myself.
所以我正在读这些关于我自己的句子。
Two key facts all of her classmates dwelled upon.
她所有的同学都在思考两个关键事实。
Mariya is from Pakistan, and she's Muslim, at a high school that was mostly white and not Muslim.
玛丽亚来自巴基斯坦，她是穆斯林，就读的高中大部分是白人，而不是穆斯林。
In a lot of the classes, I was the only nonwhite person.
在很多班级中，我是唯一的非白人。
And a lot of times, outside of school, I would go to parties or social gatherings and I would be the only nonwhite person there.
很多时候，在校外，我会去参加聚会或社交聚会，而我是那里唯一的非白人。
So I'm picturing you have a stack of a couple dozen essays and you're going through them and everyone is talking about you?
所以我想象你有一堆几十篇文章，你正在浏览它们，每个人都在谈论你？
I mean, there were some people who did not write about me.
我的意思是，有些人没有写我的事。
They did actually come up with a hypothetical future person and wrote about those people, offensively.
他们确实提出了一个假设的未来人，并以攻击性的方式写下了这些人。
There was one in particular in which the guy wrote about his roommate who had super, super greasy hair and smelled like sandalwood.
其中有一篇特别提到他的室友，他的头发非常非常油腻，闻起来像檀香。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
What is that referring to?
这是指什么？
Yeah.
是的。
He was like some Indian kid who managed to find common ground.
他就像一些设法找到共同点的印度孩子。
I think the common ground was like video games.
我认为共同点就像电子游戏一样。
I'm not kidding.
我不是在开玩笑。
Mariya brought to the studio a couple of the essays written about her by her high school friends, including one written by one of her best friends at the time, Jenna, who's still one of her best friends.
玛丽亚给工作室带来了几篇她高中朋友写的关于她的文章，其中一篇是她当时最好的朋友詹娜写的，她现在仍然是她最好的朋友之一。
Mariya was a bridesmaid at her wedding.
玛丽亚在她的婚礼上担任伴娘。
All of Mariya's winter stuff is stored in Jenna's garage right now.
玛丽亚所有的冬季物品现在都存放在詹娜的车库里。
Here's Jenna's Essay B.
这是珍娜的论文 B。
OK.
好的。
I'll just start.
我就开始吧。
"As-salamu alaykum.
“愿安拉穆阿拉库姆。
Hello.
你好。
It's a customary Islamic greeting and so much fun to pronounce."
这是一种习惯性的伊斯兰问候语，发音起来非常有趣。”
OK.
好的。
Mariya Karimjee "Almost every evening when my cell phone rings, I'll see Mari's name on the caller ID, flip open the phone, and hastily cry, as-salamu alaykum." And this is a real person writing about me.
Mariya Karimjee “几乎每天晚上，当我的手机响起时，我都会在来电显示上看到 Mari 的名字，然后打开手机，然后急忙哭泣，as-salamu alaykum。”这是一个真实的人在写我。
I'm Mari.
我是玛丽。
And I can guarantee that I don't think that anyone who is white has ever answered the phone and said "as-salamu alaykum" to me.
我可以保证，我不认为任何白人接过电话并对我说“as-salamu alaykum”。
And then she explains.
然后她解释道。
"I'm not Muslim.
“我不是穆斯林。
For that matter, I'm also not Middle Eastern or South Asian.
就此而言，我也不是中东人或南亚人。
And I certainly can't speak the tongue of those regions."
我当然不会说那些地区的语言。”
Jenna then describes how someday she's going to meet this fictional Mari at college on the first day of Intro to Psychology in the middle of a sea of kids who were wearing T-shirts.
珍娜随后描述了有一天她将如何在大学《心理学入门》第一天在一群穿着 T 恤的孩子中间遇到这个虚构的玛丽。
"My eye caught the gorgeous, intricate beading of a handmade sari.
“我的眼睛注意到了手工纱丽上华丽而复杂的珠饰。
At the time, I hadn't the faintest idea what a sari was.
那时，我根本不知道什么是纱丽。
I was merely awestruck by someone who would willingly wear such a bold outfit."
我只是对有人愿意穿如此大胆的服装感到惊讶。”
No. I have worn a sari-- I'm almost 30, and I've worn a sari maybe twice in my life.
不，我穿过纱丽——我已经快 30 岁了，一生中大概穿过两次纱丽。
And then she goes on.
然后她继续说下去。
She says, "Her dark, daring South Asian eyes met mine, and she smiled."
她说：“她那双乌黑、大胆的南亚眼睛与我相遇，她笑了。”
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Followed by, "She was not the typical Indian woman I had seen in National Geographic."
接下来，“她不是我在《国家地理》中看到的典型印度女性。”
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Mariya Karimjee I don't know.
玛丽亚·卡里姆吉 我不知道。
I'm wearing a sari.
我穿着纱丽。
Was it weird that suddenly you realized that they're seeing you as their exotic friend?
你突然意识到他们把你视为他们的异国朋友，这很奇怪吗？
Yeah, it was super weird.
是的，这太奇怪了。
I didn't know that they saw me that way until I read about it in these essays.
直到我在这些文章中读到，我才知道他们是这样看我的。
I saw myself as having fully fit in into this super white high school.
我认为自己已经完全融入了这所超级白人高中。
This, in fact, had been a determined, calculated, five-year campaign on Mariya's part, starting when she was 12 years old and her family moved from Pakistan.
事实上，对于玛丽亚来说，这是一场坚定、精心策划的为期五年的竞选活动，从她 12 岁随家人从巴基斯坦搬来时就开始了。
She carried around a little notebook, where she'd record important details, like at her friend's house, the family drank milk with dinner.
她随身带着一个小笔记本，记录重要的细节，比如在朋友家，一家人晚餐时喝牛奶。
Mariya wrote in the notebook, "Americans drink milk with dinner," then tried to get her parents to serve it.
玛丽亚在笔记本上写道，“美国人晚餐时喝牛奶”，然后试图让她的父母给她端牛奶。
To get rid of her Pakistani accent, she embarked on a project that took hours every day after middle school.
为了摆脱巴基斯坦口音，她在中学毕业后开始了一个每天需要几个小时的项目。
On the VCR in the family game room, she'd record her favorite TV show, Lizzie McGuire.
她会在家庭游戏室的录像机上录制她最喜欢的电视节目《Lizzie McGuire》。
And then play back Hilary Duff speaking.
然后回放希拉里·达芙的讲话。
And then I would repeat what she had said and record it.
然后我会重复她所说的话并记录下来。
On the family computer, using Windows Media Player.
在家庭计算机上，使用 Windows Media Player。
And then play them simultaneously, hear the differences, and then fix my accent.
然后同时播放它们，听出差异，然后纠正我的口音。
So I basically copied Hilary Duff's accent.
所以我基本上模仿了希拉里·达芙的口音。
So even now, I sound a lot like a 13-year-old Hilary Duff.
所以即使是现在，我听起来也很像 13 岁的希拉里·达芙 (Hilary Duff)。
Now, as an adult, I'm able to look back at all those things that I did to be more American and say I wasn't really trying to be more American.
现在，作为一个成年人，我可以回顾我为变得更加美国化所做的所有事情，并说我并不是真的想变得更加美国化。
I was trying to be more white.
我试图变得更白。
And then all of a sudden, I was confronted with these essays, and they were all like, and you're not!
然后突然之间，我面对这些文章，它们都像，而你不是！
Yeah.
是的。
That is a really sobering moment, huh?
这真是一个发人深省的时刻，不是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
Because you have this project you've been working on for years.
因为这个项目是你多年来一直致力于的。
You think you're killing it.
你认为你正在杀死它。
You're doing such an amazing job.
你的工作做得非常出色。
You feel so close to these people, like you're totally integrated.
你感觉与这些人如此亲近，就像完全融为一体一样。
Then you learn, like--
然后你就会学习，比如——
Yeah.
是的。
It was not fun.
这并不有趣。
And it was not pleasant.
这并不令人愉快。
And I was in this classroom setting, and my friends were willingly giving me their essays to read, and everyone around me was acting as though it was this giant compliment.
我在这个教室环境中，我的朋友们很乐意给我他们的论文供我阅读，我周围的每个人都表现得好像这是一个巨大的赞美。
Because they'd all written about me, like how great that I was immortalized in all of these college applications.
因为他们都写了关于我的文章，比如我在所有这些大学申请中永垂不朽。
I know.
我知道。
But it's like they're saying, oh, you're our cute little mascot.
但这就像他们在说，哦，你是我们可爱的小吉祥物。
Yeah.
是的。
It's a little bit like that.
有点像那样。
Yeah.
是的。
Like, my Pakistani friend Mariya.
就像我的巴基斯坦朋友玛丽亚。
And if you had asked me to describe my best friends, it's not like I would've been like, yeah, my friend Katie, who's a white Southern Baptist from Texas.
如果你让我描述一下我最好的朋友，我不会说，是的，我的朋友凯蒂，她是来自德克萨斯州的白人美南浸信会教徒。
Those are not identifiers I would have used.
这些不是我会使用的标识符。
I would have just said, my friend Katie.
我只想说，我的朋友凯蒂。
Mariya is the first to say her friends were just trying to give the answer that Essay Topic B seemed to be asking for.
玛丽亚是第一个说她的朋友只是想给出作文主题 B 似乎要求的答案的人。
It is a really weird essay prompt.
这是一个非常奇怪的论文提示。
It's basically telling 17-year-olds to imagine a stereotype of somebody who's different from them and then explain how they would learn the right lessons from this stereotyped person.
它基本上是告诉 17 岁的孩子想象一个与他们不同的刻板印象，然后解释他们如何从这个刻板印象的人身上学到正确的教训。
The kids were basically writing what they think some admissions office wants to hear.
孩子们基本上写的是他们认为招生办公室想听到的内容。
And of everything in all these essays, there was one section of one essay that got to Mariya the most.
在所有这些文章中，有一篇文章中的一个部分对玛丽亚影响最大。
It was in the Essay B that her best friend Jenna wrote.
她最好的朋友珍娜在论文 B 中写了这篇文章。
Jenna has a scene in her essay where she pictures someday studying for a psychology final with this supposedly fictional girl, Mari, that she imagines meeting at college and befriending.
珍娜在她的文章中提到了这样一个场景，她想象有一天和一个虚构的女孩玛丽一起学习心理学期末考试，她想象着在大学里遇见她并成为朋友。
This moment is not a hypothetical.
这一刻不是假设。
It's not a fake moment.
这不是一个虚假的时刻。
It's an actual thing that happened between us.
这是我们之间真实发生的事情。
OK.
好的。
Let's hear.
我们来听听。
Mariya Karimjee So she describes herself.
Mariya Karimjee 她这样描述自己。
"I'm sitting cross-legged in my favorite gray sweats on my extra-long twin, scattered with a frightening number of psych notes.
“我穿着我最喜欢的灰色运动衫盘腿坐在我的超长双胞胎身上，上面散落着数量惊人的通灵笔记。
My faithful study buddy, Mari, leans against the bed, her knees pulled close to her chest, a mug of chai between her hands." I would not have been drinking chai.
我忠实的学习伙伴玛丽靠在床上，膝盖靠近胸部，双手之间夹着一杯奶茶。”我不会喝奶茶。
Coffee.
咖啡。
And it would have been like a basic white girl, like Frappuccino pumpkin spice drink, too.
它就像一个基本的白人女孩，就像星冰乐南瓜香料饮料一样。
OK.
好的。
Mariya Karimjee "I'm flipping through the pages of my textbook when I run across a striking quote from the social psych chapter."
Mariya Karimjee “当我翻阅教科书时，我看到社会心理学章节中的一段引人注目的引言。”
The essay goes on to quote from the textbook, which says that the DNA that all humans share is mostly alike.
文章接着引用了教科书的内容，其中说所有人类共有的 DNA 大多是相似的。
And then when people are different races or ethnicities, the difference is less than 0.2% of their DNA.
当人们属于不同种族或民族时，他们的 DNA 差异不到 0.2%。
Here's Mariya reading more of Jenna's essay.
这是玛丽亚正在阅读詹娜文章的更多内容。
"I read the stats aloud to Mari, then I excitedly spilled the thoughts running through my head.
“我向马里大声朗读了统计数据，然后我兴奋地说出了我脑海中的想法。
'That makes so much sense.
'这很有道理。
So much sense.
很有道理。
You know, I've heard we all smile in the same language, but it goes so far beyond that, and I never realized it was possible until I met you, Mari.
你知道，我听说我们都用同一种语言微笑，但它远远不止于此，直到我遇见你，玛丽，我才意识到这是可能的。
I had no idea I could connect with someone so completely opposite of me on such a deep level.
我不知道我可以与一个与我完全相反的人在如此深的层面上建立联系。
We can read each other's looks.
我们可以读懂彼此的表情。
And no wonder.
这也不足为奇。
There's only a 0.2% difference between us.'"
我们之间只有 0.2% 的差异。”
And this like killed me, reading this.
读这篇文章就像杀了我一样。
It kills me now because it's like, I didn't need science to tell us that we were the same, and she did.
现在这让我很伤心，因为我不需要科学来告诉我们我们是一样的，而她做到了。
And she was supposed to be my best friend.
她应该是我最好的朋友。
And it wasn't until she read a quote in a social psych chapter that she realized that the genetic differences between us was so slim that it made sense that we could be friends.
直到她读到社会心理学章节中的一句话，她才意识到我们之间的基因差异是如此之小，以至于我们可以成为朋友。
They didn't talk about it.
他们没有谈论这件事。
Mariya didn't know how.
玛丽亚不知道怎么办。
She was in this situation where their teacher and everybody else acted like this was normal, what they were all writing in their essays, and it was hard for her at the time to put her finger on what her problem with it was.
她处于这样的情况，他们的老师和其他人表现得好像这是正常的，他们都在论文中写了什么，当时她很难指出她的问题是什么。
I will just say that for 10 years or something like that, I carried this moment in writing along with me and I would reflect back upon it, about the fact that my best friend had to have science prove to her that we were similar enough to be able to be friends.
我只想说，在十年左右的时间里，我一直在写下这一刻，我会回顾它，关于我最好的朋友必须有科学向她证明我们足够相似才能成为朋友这一事实。
Just this week, Mariya finally discussed all this with Jenna.
就在本周，玛丽亚终于与珍娜讨论了这一切。
She asked Jenna to go back and read her old high school Essay Topic B and then go into a studio to talk about it.
她让珍娜回去读一下她以前的高中作文主题 B，然后进入工作室谈论它。
And Jenna felt really bad about it.
珍娜对此感到非常难过。
Here she is.
她在这里。
I got this out to read it and I was like, womp-womp, it's going to be just something that I wrote when I was 17.
我拿出这篇文章来读，我想，womp-womp，这将是我 17 岁时写的东西。
And then I was like, oh, I get it.
然后我就想，哦，我明白了。
I get why this hurt.
我明白为什么会这么痛。
Yeah.
是的。
It was hard for me to read.
我很难阅读。
The parts that were especially hard for her to read were the fact that she made up that I wore saris, that she used my real name, the National Geographic bit.
对她来说特别难以阅读的部分是她编造了我穿着纱丽的事实，以及她使用了我的真名，即《国家地理》的部分。
That was especially horrifying to her.
这对她来说尤其可怕。
And did you guys talk about the DNA statistic?
你们谈论过 DNA 统计数据吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I told her that it made me feel like she needed science to validate our friendship.
我告诉她，这让我觉得她需要科学来验证我们的友谊。
I never intended that.
我从来没有这个意思。
I don't know why I used the word opposite so many times in this essay.
我不知道为什么我在这篇文章中多次使用相反的词。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, maybe so.
是的，也许是这样。
I don't think about you-- like, I never, never have.
我不会想你——就像，我从来，从来没有。
Even when I wrote this, I didn't think of you as someone who was opposite.
即使我写下这篇文章时，我也不认为你是相反的人。
Jenna said that in the essay, she was trying to say that the DNA science just confirmed something she already knew from our friendship.
珍娜说，在这篇文章中，她试图说 DNA 科学只是证实了她从我们的友谊中已经知道的一些事情。
It honestly did.
老实说确实如此。
Whether I express it well in the essay or not, it just clicked.
无论我在文章中表达得好不好，它都一语中的。
I was like, yeah, of course.
我当时想，是的，当然。
This is my experience.
这是我的经验。
We're the same, and we can still relate in every way imaginable.
我们是一样的，我们仍然可以以各种可以想象的方式建立联系。
During the conversation, there was one moment where Jenna asked me something.
在谈话过程中，有一次詹娜问了我一些事情。
Jenna Did you literally think that this is how I saw you?
珍娜 你真的认为我就是这样看你的吗？
After the essay, a little bit, yes.
论文之后，一点点，是的。
There was a brief, two-year period in which I did.
我曾有过短暂的两年时间。
That's not very brief.
这不是很简短。
Mariya Karimjee But now I don't.
玛丽亚·卡里姆吉 但现在我不知道了。
A version of Essay Topic B is still on the website with the Texas Common App, but instead of asking you to imagine a person who you're going to meet in college someday who's going to change you in some way, it asks you about somebody who you've already met whose, quote, "experiences and/or beliefs differ from yours." The old Essay B went further than that, of course.
论文主题 B 的一个版本仍然在 Texas Common 应用程序的网站上，但它不是要求你想象有一天你会在大学里遇到一个会以某种方式改变你的人，而是问你一个你已经见过的人，引用他的话说，“经历和/或信仰与你不同”。当然，旧的论文 B 走得更远。
It asked how somebody from a different culture or economic background would benefit a student's, quote, "future growth," which, Mariya points out, seems to assume something about the applicant.
它询问来自不同文化或经济背景的人如何使学生受益，引用“未来的成长”，玛丽亚指出，这似乎对申请人做出了一些假设。
Even when I was in high school and I was reading this prompt, I remember being very aware of the fact that that question was not meant for me.
即使当我在高中时，我正在阅读这个提示，我记得我非常清楚这个问题不适合我。
Every time I read it, I had to think like, who on Earth am I going to write about?
每次我读它时，我都必须思考，我到底要写谁？
Who is different from me?
谁与我不同？
I just can't get around the idea that the question is only for white people.
我无法回避这个问题只针对白人的想法。
It says, "With your future growth in mind, describe a potential classmate that you believe you could learn from." When it's saying, "Your future growth in mind," who is the "your" in that context?
它说，“考虑到你未来的成长，描述一个你认为可以向你学习的潜在同学。”当它说“你心中的未来成长”时，在这种情况下谁是“你的”？
In my opinion, it's white people.
在我看来，这是白人。
Who else needs to learn and grow from people different from them?
还有谁需要向与他们不同的人学习和成长？
It's like the prompt is saying that college is for white people and everyone else is here for the benefit of white people.
就像提示说大学是为白人而设的，其他人来这里都是为了白人的利益。
There are different ways to talk about why it's important to have a mix of people in a school together.
有不同的方式来谈论为什么学校里的不同人在一起很重要。
Way back in the 1950s, when the Supreme Court decision mandated school desegregation, the language used was that this is the fair and democratic thing to do.
早在 20 世纪 50 年代，当最高法院判决强制学校废除种族隔离时，所使用的语言是，这是公平和民主的事情。
It was just right for everybody to be treated the same.
每个人都受到同样的对待是正确的。
But in the years since then, another idea has come forward that you run into all the time in schools and in lots of other settings, that diversity is important because it's good for the majority.
但从那以后的几年里，另一个想法出现了，你在学校和许多其他环境中总是会遇到这种想法，即多样性很重要，因为它对大多数人都有好处。
It's good for white people.
这对白人来说是好事。
It's not always said that way flat out.
人们并不总是这么直白地说。
Often, it's kind of implicit, like in Essay Topic B.
通常，它是隐含的，就像论文主题 B 中那样。
Today on our program, we have a story of a program from back in the 1960s that ran all across the South.
今天在我们的节目中，我们讲述了一个 20 世纪 60 年代席卷整个南方的节目的故事。
It was started for a bunch of reasons, but the primary one was this one-- to change the thinking of white people.
它的发起有很多原因，但最主要的是——改变白人的思维。
Today on our show, we hear how that played out over decades in real life.
今天在我们的节目中，我们听到了几十年来现实生活中的情况。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, How to Win Friends and Influence White People.
第一幕，如何赢得朋友并影响白人。
OK.
好的。
So 35 years before Mariya had that experience in her high school, some Black kids were drafted into a project created by a small group called The Stouffer Foundation.
因此，在玛丽亚（Mariya）在高中获得这种经历的 35 年前，一些黑人孩子被征召加入一个名为斯托弗基金会（Stouffer Foundation）的小团体创建的项目。
They would be the children whose presence in the lives of white kids would impart valuable lessons to the white kids.
他们将是那些出现在白人孩子生活中的孩子，将为白人孩子传授宝贵的教训。
And before they got to do that, they had to go through an admissions interview.
在他们这样做之前，他们必须经过招生面试。
Some of these were recorded.
其中一些被记录下来。
This is a 14-year-old named Doug.
这是一个 14 岁的男孩，名叫道格。
And the person that he's being interviewed by was kind of a random semi-celebrity back then, a British stage actress named Rosemary Harris.
他接受采访的人当时是一位随机的半名人，一位名叫罗斯玛丽·哈里斯的英国舞台女演员。
She's in film sometimes, too.
她有时也参演电影。
You may have seen her decades later playing Aunt May in Spider-Man.
几十年后你可能见过她在《蜘蛛侠》中扮演梅阿姨。
Anyway, in this interview, Rosemary and Doug talk about his grades.
不管怎样，在这次采访中，罗斯玛丽和道格谈论了他的成绩。
He's mostly getting As and Bs, one C.
他的大部分成绩都是 A 和 B，还有一个 C。
They talk about his science fair project, what he thinks makes a good teacher.
他们谈论他的科学博览会项目，以及他认为怎样才能成为一名好老师。
Our French teacher, he's a good teacher, but he just can't keep a quiet class.
我们的法语老师，他是一位好老师，但他就是无法保持课堂安静。
Most of the class is quiet until they get in French.
班里的大部分人都很安静，直到他们开始讲法语。
They don't like French.
他们不喜欢法语。
Doug Well, his classes are kind of boring.
道格 嗯，他的课有点无聊。
Yes.
是的。
Rosemary Harris How many years have you done French?
Rosemary Harris 你学法语多少年了？
Oh, you've done a lot of French.
哦，你已经学了很多法语了。
Can you speak any?
你能说点什么吗？
Say anything?
说什么？
Very good.
非常好。
Good accent and well pronounced.
口音良好且发音良好。
Better than mine, I think.
我想，比我的好。
The fact that this nice lady is complimenting a teenager on his terrible accent, that's just her personal style.
事实上，这位好女士正在称赞一个青少年的糟糕口音，这只是她的个人风格。
That is not part of the educational program.
这不是教育计划的一部分。
Mosi Secret has been looking into this program, and he explains what it was all about.
Mosi Secret 一直在研究这个计划，他解释了它的全部内容。
This interview was part of an experiment started by a white heiress from the South named Anne Forsyth.
这次采访是一位来自南方的白人女继承人安妮·福赛思发起的实验的一部分。
She was the granddaughter of a tobacco magnate, RJ Reynolds, and she saw that integration was happening all around the country except at prep schools in the South, and she wanted to do something about it.
她是烟草大亨 RJ Reynolds 的孙女，她看到除了南方的预科学校外，全国各地都在发生融合，她想为此做点什么。
The students in these schools grow up to be the leaders of the South, she told Ebony magazine.
她告诉《Ebony》杂志，这些学校的学生长大后成为南方的领导人。
Teach them to be less bigoted and they'd carry that attitude into the institutions they'd run someday.
教他们不要那么偏执，有一天他们会把这种态度带入他们管理的机构中。
A small investment in an individual change could have a big effect.
对个人变革的小额投资可能会产生巨大的影响。
Meanwhile, the Black student she'd send into these boarding schools would get a top-notch education.
与此同时，她送入这些寄宿学校的黑人学生将获得一流的教育。
So her little foundation set out to find the best of the best Black students, pluck them from their neighborhoods, convince previously all-white boarding schools to take them, and then send the students in as ambassadors.
因此，她的小基金会着手寻找最优秀的黑人学生，从他们的社区中挑选他们，说服以前全是白人的寄宿学校接收他们，然后派学生作为大使。
Forsyth hired a man named John Ehle to lead the effort.
福赛思聘请了一位名叫约翰·埃勒的人来领导这项工作。
John was a novelist from North Carolina who, in his 40s, turned his imagination to solving social problems with rich people's money.
约翰是一位来自北卡罗来纳州的小说家，40 多岁时，他将想象力转向用富人的钱解决社会问题。
Rosemary Harris, the actress, was his wife.
女演员罗斯玛丽·哈里斯是他的妻子。
They went all over the South looking for applicants, interviewing them in their schools.
他们走遍了整个南方寻找申请者，在他们的学校面试他们。
John could be kind of gruff, even when he first sat down with someone.
约翰可能会有点粗鲁，即使当他第一次与某人坐下来时也是如此。
He talked to one boy who told John that his hobbies were chemistry and eating.
他与一个男孩交谈，男孩告诉约翰他的爱好是化学和饮食。
"That's a hobby?" John asked.
“这就是爱好？”约翰问道。
I love to eat.
我喜欢吃。
John Ehle What do you like to eat most?
约翰·埃勒 你最喜欢吃什么？
Well, I like to eat pizza.
嗯，我喜欢吃披萨。
John Ehle What-- pizza.
约翰·埃勒 什么——披萨。
Oh, yeah, excuse me.
哦，是的，对不起。
French fries, cheeseburger, milk shakes.
炸薯条、芝士汉堡、奶昔。
Your taste in eating is no account at all, is it?
你的饮食品味根本不重要，是吗？
Oh, my.
哦，我的。
Another boy told John he was worried about the effects of studying too hard.
另一个男孩告诉约翰，他担心学习太努力的影响。
But I believe I should study hard, but don't push myself to exhaustion till I get a nervous breakdown.
但我相信我应该努力学习，但不要把自己逼得精疲力尽，直到我精神崩溃。
You don't look like you're going to have one, if I may say so.
如果我可以这么说的话，你看上去不会有这样的人。
You don't feel like you're going to have one soon, do you?
你不觉得你很快就会拥有一个，是吗？
Mm-mm.
嗯嗯。
John Ehle I agree with you.
约翰·埃勒 我同意你的观点。
Now these prep schools are harder than public schools.
现在这些预科学校比公立学校更难。
All these kids you're hearing, they were all chosen.
你听到的所有这些孩子，他们都是被选中的。
They went on to prep schools.
他们继续上预科学校。
And later in life, they became entrepreneurs and lawyers and engineers.
在后来的生活中，他们成为了企业家、律师和工程师。
But here, they were at a moment of great transition, about to become transplants who might or might not take.
但在这里，他们正处于一个伟大的转变时刻，即将成为可能接受也可能不接受的移植者。
John and Rosemary don't tell the kids that this is an effort to change the minds of white students.
约翰和罗斯玛丽没有告诉孩子们这是为了改变白人学生的想法。
The white students weren't told it, either.
白人学生也没有被告知这一点。
In fact, they wait until the end of these interviews to even bring up the fact that the candidates will be integrating white schools.
事实上，他们等到面试结束后才提出候选人将整合白人学校的事实。
They mention race, but they kind of back into it.
他们提到了种族，但他们又回到了这个话题。
Yes.
是的。
Rosemary Harris You wouldn't be homesick at school, would you?
罗斯玛丽·哈里斯：你在学校不会想家，对吗？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Rosemary Harris Are you worried at all about going to a-- because these are all-- these prep schools in the South are really all white.
罗斯玛丽·哈里斯（Rosemary Harris）你是否担心去——因为这些——南方的预科学校实际上都是白人。
Does that idea bother you at all?
这个想法让你烦恼吗？
No. Rosemary Harris What experience have you had with integration?
否。 Rosemary Harris 您在融入方面有哪些经验？
This school isn't very integrated, is it?
这所学校的综合性不是很强，是吗？
No. In the sixth grade, I had a friend named Freedom, and he acts about as crazy as I do sometimes.
不。六年级时，我有一个朋友，名叫自由，他有时表现得和我一样疯狂。
So you really don't find any difference between a white boy and a Black boy?
所以你真的不觉得白人男孩和黑人男孩有什么区别吗？
No. Rosemary Harris If he's got the right qualities.
不。罗斯玛丽·哈里斯，如果他有合适的品质。
That's good.
那很好。
Mm-mm.
嗯嗯。
John Ehle Go ahead and talk to Karen a minute, will you?
约翰·埃勒（John Ehle） 继续和凯伦谈一分钟，好吗？
OK.
好的。
Mosi Secret John Ehle wanted this integration effort to happen quietly.
Mosi Secret John Ehle 希望这种整合工作能够悄然进行。
No fuss, no big moments for the news cameras.
没有大惊小怪，没有新闻摄像机的重大时刻。
"Stay out of the damn papers," he said.
“远离那些该死的报纸，”他说。
The first Stouffer recipients entered schools in the fall of 1967, 13 years after Brown versus Board of Education.
第一批斯托弗受益者于 1967 年秋天进入学校，即布朗诉教育委员会案 13 年后。
There were 20 Black teenagers placed in seven private prep schools that year in small-town Virginia, in the mountains of Tennessee and North Carolina, on the affluent side of Atlanta, all schools that had historically only accepted white kids.
那一年，有 20 名黑人青少年被安置在弗吉尼亚州小镇、田纳西州和北卡罗来纳州山区、亚特兰大富裕地区的七所私立预科学校，所有学校历来只接受白人孩子。
Does it bother you, the thought of going to a predominantly white boarding school?
去一所以白人为主的寄宿学校的想法会让你感到困扰吗？
No. I find that if you have a good sense of humor and you can get along with people well, it doesn't make any difference what race it is.
不。我发现如果你有很好的幽默感并且你能与人相处得很好，那么无论是什么种族都没有任何区别。
If you can get along with people, get along with any type of people.
如果你能与人相处，那就与任何类型的人相处。
Sure.
当然。
And if anybody is kind of unpleasant, you feel you can rise above it?
如果有人有点不愉快，你觉得你可以克服它吗？
Yes.
是的。
Rosemary Harris Good.
罗斯玛丽·哈里斯 好。
Not that you're going to have any difficulty, but.
并不是说你会遇到任何困难，但是。
"Not that you're going to have any difficulty," Rosemary says, "but." Then her voice trails off.
“并不是说你会遇到任何困难，”罗斯玛丽说，“但是。”然后她的声音逐渐减弱。
So did this experiment work?
那么这个实验有效吗？
Did it make white students less bigoted?
这是否让白人学生不再那么偏执？
And how'd it turn out for the Black students?
黑人学生的结果如何？
In order to answer those questions, I focused in on one school that took part in the Stouffer experiment, Virginia Episcopal School in Lynchburg, Virginia.
为了回答这些问题，我重点关注了参与斯托弗实验的一所学校，即位于弗吉尼亚州林奇堡的弗吉尼亚圣公会学校。
People call it VES.
人们称之为VES。
When the Supreme Court mandated the desegregation of public schools, lawmakers in Virginia actually closed public schools rather than integrate in Charlottesville, Norfolk, and elsewhere, displacing more than 10,000 students.
当最高法院强制废除公立学校种族隔离时，弗吉尼亚州的立法者实际上关闭了公立学校，而不是在夏洛茨维尔、诺福克和其他地方进行融合，导致一万多名学生流离失所。
And white families enrolled their children in private schools in droves.
白人家庭纷纷将孩子送入私立学校。
VES was one of those schools.
VES 就是其中一所学校。
It was a haven for white families fleeing integration.
这是逃离融合的白人家庭的避风港。
That's what two Black Stouffer scholars were walking into when they arrived in 1967.
这就是两位 Black Stouffer 学者 1967 年抵达时所面临的情况。
Bill Alexander was one of them.
比尔·亚历山大就是其中之一。
He was 14, from a middle-class family in segregated Nashville, the son of a prominent pastor, and a boy who John Ehle thought was perfect for Stouffer.
他 14 岁，来自种族隔离的纳什维尔的一个中产阶级家庭，是一位著名牧师的儿子，约翰·埃勒认为这个男孩非常适合斯托弗。
After interviewing Bill, he wrote, "William Alexander, Jr. looks like a prep school student, dresses like one, and talks like one." In the fall of 1967, Bill flew to Lynchburg, walked outside the airport, and hailed a cab.
在采访比尔后，他写道：“小威廉·亚历山大看起来像一名预科学校的学生，穿着像个学生，说话也像个学生。” 1967 年秋天，比尔飞往林奇堡，走出机场，叫了一辆出租车。
It was a Black cab driver.
那是一名黑人出租车司机。
And I tell the cab driver, take me to VES, Virginia Episcopal School on VES Road.
我告诉出租车司机，带我去 VES，位于 VES 路的弗吉尼亚圣公会学校。
The cab driver drives off and takes me to downtown Lynchburg to an African-American Baptist seminary.
出租车司机开车送我到林奇堡市中心的一所非裔美国浸信会神学院。
Not VES.
不是VES。
Bill Alexander He pulls up, and because I'd been up there, I knew where the school was.
比尔·亚历山大 他停下来，因为我去过那里，所以我知道学校在哪里。
I said, well, sir, I said Virginia Episcopal School.
我说，好吧，先生，我说的是弗吉尼亚圣公会学校。
He said, you're going there?
他说，你要去吗？
He couldn't believe it.
他简直不敢相信。
He couldn't process that.
他无法处理这个。
Eventually, Bill made his way to VES, where he got a warm welcome.
最终，Bill 来到了 VES，在那里他受到了热烈的欢迎。
They knew I was coming.
他们知道我要来。
They came down.
他们下来了。
They had some guys come get my bags and stuff.
他们让一些人来拿我的包和东西。
The leaders of the school came down.
学校领导下来了。
They said, welcome, Bill.
他们说，欢迎，比尔。
Let me take you to your room.
让我带你去你的房间。
Bill's new roommate, Marvin Barnard, arrived in Lynchburg by bus.
比尔的新室友马文·巴纳德 (Marvin Barnard) 乘公共汽车抵达林奇堡。
He'd come by himself, 100 miles from the Black side of Richmond.
他是自己来的，距离里士满黑区 100 英里。
He had one suitcase.
他有一个手提箱。
He was wearing a sports jacket, a little blue cap.
他穿着一件运动夹克，戴着一顶蓝色小帽子。
He'd never seen a place like VES before.
他以前从未见过像 VES 这样的地方。
It had a bell tower.
它有一个钟楼。
The bell tower, I thought, was beautiful.
我觉得钟楼很漂亮。
I never had a bell tower in the community where I came from.
我来自的社区从来没有钟楼。
The lawn was rolling.
草坪滚动起来。
The mountains in the background.
背景是山脉。
It was so peaceful.
一切都是那么平静。
And I felt like, OK, I can do this.
我觉得，好吧，我能做到。
Of course, I had no idea.
当然，我不知道。
I didn't really realize how big an issue this really was in terms of integrating the school.
我并没有真正意识到这对于整合学校来说到底是一个多大的问题。
I wasn't thinking along that line at 13 and 14 years old.
我在 13 岁和 14 岁时并没有这么想。
I was thinking that it's a big experiment.
我当时想这是一个大实验。
People want you to come.
人们希望你来。
People in my community wanted me to go.
我社区的人希望我去。
I'm ready to go.
我准备走了。
Let's get it going.
让我们开始吧。
Marvin was smiley, 5" 2', 100 pounds.
马文面带微笑，身高 5 英寸 2 英尺，体重 100 磅。
During his interview with John Ehle, he told John, "I get along with everyone," which was true.
在接受约翰·艾勒采访时，他告诉约翰，“我和每个人都相处得很好”，这是事实。
He did.
他做到了。
Unfortunately, there aren't recordings of Bill and Marvin's interviews.
不幸的是，没有比尔和马文的采访录音。
In many ways, Marvin was Bill's opposite, warm-blooded to Bill's cool, short to Bill's tall.
在很多方面，马文与比尔截然相反，他热血而冷静，身材矮小而高大。
Marvin grew up in a three-room shack with an outside toilet, not a middle-class home like Bill.
马文在一个带室外厕所的三居室小屋里长大，而不是像比尔那样的中产阶级家庭。
A teacher would come to call the duo of Marvin and Bill Fire and Ice.
一位老师会来叫马文和比尔火与冰二人组。
Both Bill and Marvin had a vague sense, a 14-year-old sense, that integrating VES was a small way they could participate in the civil rights movement they saw happening all around them.
Bill 和 Marvin 都有一种模糊的感觉，一种 14 岁时的感觉，认为整合 VES 是他们参与周围发生的民权运动的一个小方法。
1967 was the year that riots broke out in more than 100 cities across the country.
1967年是全国100多个城市爆发骚乱的一年。
The Supreme Court decided Loving versus the State of Virginia, which ended laws against interracial marriage.
最高法院对洛文诉弗吉尼亚州作出裁决，终止了反对异族通婚的法律。
John Ehle told Marvin that this was a chance to prove that Black students could perform as well as any white students if the playing field were level.
约翰·艾勒告诉马文，这是一个机会，可以证明如果竞争环境公平，黑人学生可以和任何白人学生一样表现。
VES was a vestige of a Jim Crow South on land that had once been a plantation.
VES 是南方种族隔离时期的遗迹，这里曾经是种植园。
A decade or so before Bill and Marvin arrived, VES had decided to tear down the remaining slave cabin on campus.
在比尔和马文到达之前大约十年，VES 决定拆除校园内剩余的奴隶小屋。
But they had a new headmaster, a guy from the north who had opened the door when The Stouffer Foundation came knocking.
但他们有了一位新校长，一个来自北方的人，当斯托弗基金会来敲门时，他打开了大门。
Resistance came from parents and some of the board.
阻力来自家长和一些董事会成员。
"Why, why, why have you done this cruel thing to our beloved school?" one parent wrote.
“为什么、为什么、为什么要对我们心爱的学校做出如此残忍的事情？”一位家长写道。
"A private boarding school like VES is an extension, a part of the family.
“像 VES 这样的私立寄宿学校是家庭的延伸，是家庭的一部分。
We have no intention whatsoever of integrating those of another race into our family." Stouffer wasn't blind to the immense challenges Marvin and Bill would face.
我们无意将其他种族的人融入我们的家庭。”斯托弗并没有对马文和比尔将面临的巨大挑战视而不见。
So as a way to prep them, all 20 Stouffer scholars did a summer program at Duke.
因此，为了做好准备，所有 20 名斯托弗学者都在杜克大学参加了暑期项目。
They learned both academics and manners, how to read classic books, do advanced math, hold a tennis racket, swim.
他们学习了学术和礼仪，如何阅读经典书籍，做高等数学，如何握网球拍，如何游泳。
Here's Marvin.
这是马文。
Socially, they really gave us a heads-up in terms of what dormitory life may be like, in a dormitory where there were, obviously, white students and they may pull pranks on you.
在社交方面，他们确实让我们了解了宿舍生活可能是什么样子，在宿舍里，显然有白人学生，他们可能会对你恶作剧。
And I wasn't used to-- like, what's a prank?
我不习惯——比如，什么是恶作剧？
A prank's, you know, you do your little things, and it sort of jokes around and they laugh about it.
恶作剧，你知道，你做你的小事，这有点像笑话，他们会笑。
And I'm like, meh, OK.
我想，嗯，好吧。
But my main thing is like, I've got to be a good student.
但我最重要的是，我必须成为一名好学生。
So it sounds like you're saying there was very little discussion of race there, despite what you were going off to do.
所以听起来你是说那里很少有关于种族的讨论，尽管你打算做什么。
Yeah.
是的。
I don't recall that.
我不记得了。
Mosi Secret Instead, they were told if someone pranks you, don't assume that it's about race.
莫西的秘密相反，他们被告知，如果有人恶作剧你，不要认为这是关于种族的。
They left it up to the kids to figure out.
他们把这个问题留给孩子们去解决。
Sort of try to feel out whether things were primarily because you were a new student versus is certain things happening because you're a Black student.
试着弄清楚事情的发生是否主要是因为你是一名新生，还是某些事情发生是因为你是一名黑人学生。
Freshmen at VES were known as newboys or rats.
VES 的新生被称为“newboy”或“rats”。
And once they were at VES, Marvin and Bill experienced some of the same mild hazing that happened to white freshmen.
进入 VES 后，马文和比尔就经历了一些与白人新生相同的轻微欺凌行为。
Seniors would tell them to get in the back of the line in the cafeteria.
年长者会告诉他们在自助餐厅排队。
They'd make them do their laundry.
他们会让他们洗衣服。
They rolled with it, but it never escaped their minds that they were the only two Black students on campus.
他们顺其自然，但他们永远不会忘记自己是校园里仅有的两名黑人学生。
They became a team, friends and roommates who were going to shine.
他们成为了一个即将发光发热的团队、朋友和室友。
Here's Marvin.
这是马文。
I felt that, if I was a good student, to be the best student I could be, then there would be success.
我觉得，如果我是一个好学生，成为最好的学生，那么就会成功。
And Bill and I both knew, then-- I think everybody else-- we wanted to be good students in as many things as possible.
比尔和我都知道——我想其他人——我们想在尽可能多的事情上成为好学生。
Not just in the classroom, but in the dorms, on the field, whatever we could do.
不只是在教室里，在宿舍里，在球场上，尽我们所能。
Right out of the gate, Bill and Marvin did more than anyone thought they could ever do.
从一开始，比尔和马文所做的事情就超出了任何人的想象。
After a month into the first semester, the school's headmaster, Austin Montgomery, wrote a letter to the Foundation with an update on the boy's progress.
第一学期一个月后，学校校长奥斯汀·蒙哥马利给基金会写了一封信，介绍了男孩的最新进展。
It started, "As I write, the two are playing touch with a dozen others out on the lovely front campus.
开头写道：“正如我所写，两人正在可爱的前校园里与其他十几个人打球。
I thought you might be interested that Friday, unbeknownst to me, the freshmen held class elections." Austin explained that the white kids had chosen Bill to be freshman class president, and that was after losing the Black vote.
我想你可能会感兴趣，那个星期五，在我不知情的情况下，新生举行了班级选举。”奥斯汀解释说，白人孩子们选择比尔担任新生班长，那是在黑人投票失败后。
Marvin had voted for someone else.
马文投票给了其他人。
After the end of the first semester, when everyone gathered around the bulletin board in Jett Hall to look at their grades and see where they stood, Bill and Marvin were out ahead, tied for number one, more than 40 white boys in their class in line behind them.
第一学期结束后，当每个人都聚集在杰特大厅的布告栏前查看自己的成绩并了解自己的排名时，比尔和马文遥遥领先，并列第一，班上 40 多名白人男孩排在他们后面。
I'm sure several were shocked.
相信不少人都感到震惊。
Yeah, there was a little competition going on.
是的，正在进行一些小竞争。
Things continued like this into the next semester.
这样的情况一直持续到下学期。
Mostly great, but not entirely.
大部分都很棒，但也不完全是。
There may have been different events where you may hear individuals use the n-word while you're walking down the hall and you turn around and nobody would say anything, and everybody looking like, well, who said that?
可能有不同的事件，当你走在大厅里时，你可能会听到有人使用“黑鬼”一词，然后你转身，没有人会说什么，每个人看起来都像，好吧，谁说的？
Or you go into a study hall in the classroom where you normally sit-- most people have habits of where they sit and where they study or whatever-- and there's a little note that has the n-word on it.
或者你走进教室里的自习室，你通常坐的地方——大多数人都有自己坐的地方、学习的地方或其他什么的习惯——然后有一张小纸条，上面写着“n”字。
So those were minor, trivial types of things that I really didn't put a lot of stock in at all.
所以这些都是些微不足道的事情，我真的根本没有投入太多精力。
Marvin said he'd been told by the uncle who raised him not to worry about words.
马文说，抚养他长大的叔叔告诉他不要担心言语。
"As long as they don't get physical with you.
“只要他们不与你发生肢体冲突。
Don't let them hit my son, now." Marvin says when these things would happen, he'd think to himself, is that the best you got?
现在，别让他们打我儿子。”马文说，当这些事情发生时，他会想，这就是你最好的办法了吗？
Then a Thursday night, April 4, 1968, and Bill and Marvin were in their dorm room.
1968 年 4 月 4 日，一个星期四的晚上，比尔和马文在他们的宿舍里。
And then the announcement came over the radio that Martin Luther King had been shot.
然后广播里传来马丁·路德·金被枪杀的消息。
He entered to the hospital emergency room with his face covered with a towel.
他用毛巾捂着脸走进医院急诊室。
The exact extent of his injuries not known at this time.
目前尚不清楚他的具体受伤程度。
And when it was announced over the radio, all of a sudden, I could hear nothing but laughter all throughout the dormitory halls.
当广播宣布这一消息时，突然间，整个宿舍大厅里除了笑声之外什么也听不到。
And it sort of resonated not only in our hallway, but it seemed like it was resonating through all the dorms.
它不仅在我们的走廊里引起了共鸣，而且似乎在所有的宿舍里都引起了共鸣。
At least, that's what it sounded like to Marvin.
至少，马文听起来是这样的。
I mean, when I heard that, I just got so angry and hurt by it because it was so pervasive.
我的意思是，当我听到这个消息时，我感到非常愤怒和受伤，因为它是如此普遍。
I thought it was very disrespectful.
我认为这是非常不尊重的。
Why are you laughing when he's announcing that someone has been killed?
当他宣布有人被杀时你为什么笑？
And it's like, why are you like joyous?
就像，你为什么这么高兴？
You're celebrating.
你正在庆祝。
One of the guys on the floor, he came, and he was laughing.
地板上的一个人来了，他在笑。
Came by the room and was taunting.
来到房间，正在嘲笑。
This is Bill.
这是比尔。
He doesn't remember exactly what was said.
他不记得具体说了什么。
No, I don't remember, but I mean, ah, he's dead.
不，我不记得了，但我的意思是，啊，他死了。
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
哈哈哈哈哈哈。
It was probably that.
大概就是这样。
He's dead.
他死了。
Good.
很好。
I'm glad he was killed.
我很高兴他被杀了。
They were happy.
他们很高兴。
Them people were happy.
他们的人民很高兴。
They were glad he was shot.
他们很高兴他被枪杀。
And with all that laughter going on, I remember looking at Bill and it was like, I can't let this go.
当笑声不断时，我记得我看着比尔，感觉就像是，我不能放手。
And I went out into the hallway and I demanded that anybody that thinks that this is funny, that you need to come out and face me now.
我走到走廊上，我要求任何认为这很有趣的人，现在就需要出来面对我。
If you think this is funny and you want to laugh, come out and face me now.
如果你觉得这很有趣并且你想笑，现在就出来面对我。
And there was silence.
周围一片寂静。
Nothing happened.
什么也没发生。
The night of Martin Luther King's assassination, there was one person who stood up for Bill and Marvin, someone who stepped up in a way that, even now, when they look back on it, feels significant, their headmaster, Austin Montgomery.
马丁·路德·金遇刺当晚，有一个人挺身而出，为比尔和马文挺身而出，即使现在，当他们回想起来时，也感觉意义重大，他就是他们的校长奥斯汀·蒙哥马利。
Austin died in 1995.
奥斯汀于 1995 年去世。
But that night, he called all the students into the chapel.
但那天晚上，他把所有的学生都叫进了教堂。
Again, here's Bill.
比尔又来了。
We've gone to bed.
我们已经去睡觉了。
We're in our PJs.
我们穿着睡衣。
And then we get the call.
然后我们接到电话。
"Everybody come to chapel." So all the guys are in chapel in their PJs.
“大家都来教堂吧。”所以所有的人都穿着睡衣在教堂里。
And Mr. Montgomery gave one of the best speeches I've ever seen in my life.
蒙哥马利先生的演讲是我一生中见过的最好的演讲之一。
In short, he was saying that the life of any man should not be one that there should be laughter or joy over, and this is not the VES way.
简而言之，他是说任何人的生活都不应该是充满欢笑或欢乐的生活，而这不是 VES 的方式。
And we are not going to have this here.
我们不会在这里看到这个。
He said, we're better than this.
他说，我们比这更好。
And he wasn't going to tolerate that foolishness.
他不会容忍这种愚蠢的行为。
That night had a profound effect on Bill and Marvin.
那天晚上对比尔和马文产生了深远的影响。
Here's Marvin.
这是马文。
It did carve-- it carved something deep inside of me because these are some of the same people that we had, quote, unquote, "been friendly with" and everything else, and why would they do that?
它确实在我内心深处刻下了一些东西，因为这些人和我们有相同的人，引用，取消引用，“友好地对待”以及其他一切，他们为什么要这样做？
Is there something that I don't know?
难道有什么我不知道的事吗？
Was I being just deceived or deluded in how I was thinking?
我是否只是被欺骗了，或者我的想法被欺骗了？
That's where the whole aspect, in terms of the young, smiley face, great experiment, everybody's buying into it, that took a different shade that evening.
这就是整个方面，就年轻、笑脸、伟大的实验而言，每个人都相信它，那天晚上呈现出不同的色调。
Marvin's roommate, Bill, was angry, too.
马文的室友比尔也很生气。
But true to form, Ice kept it to himself.
但一如往常，艾斯把这件事保密了。
And he had this additional reaction to it.
他对此有额外的反应。
He found the incident clarifying.
他发现这件事已经澄清了。
How can I say this at my age?
我这个年纪怎么能说出这样的话呢？
I did not have an expectation that I'm coming to VES and that it's going to be a post-racial experience.
我并没有预料到我会来到 VES，并且这将是一次后种族经历。
I think we could make things different, and hopefully for the better, sure, but I'm not going to take that weight on.
我认为我们可以让事情变得不同，当然希望事情会变得更好，但我不会承担这个重担。
Oh, my God, you don't like me.
哦天哪，你不喜欢我。
Or you expressed your bias against African-Americans because you laughed when Dr. King was assassinated.
或者你表达了对非裔美国人的偏见，因为你在金博士被暗杀时笑了。
OK, well, I know who you are.
好吧，我知道你是谁了。
OK.
好的。
We're good.
我们很好。
That summer, Marvin returned home, back to his old life, back to the shotgun house he grew up in in Fulton, a neighborhood in Richmond, Virginia.
那年夏天，马文回到了家乡，回到了他以前的生活，回到了他在弗吉尼亚州里士满社区富尔顿长大的猎枪屋。
Some people called it Fulton Bottom because it was at the bottom of a hill on the banks of the James River.
有些人称其为富尔顿底部，因为它位于詹姆斯河畔的山脚下。
White people seldom came down the hill.
白人很少下山。
One night, Marvin was in his house where he lived with his uncle.
一天晚上，马文在他和叔叔住的房子里。
His aunt had died a few years before.
他的姨妈几年前去世了。
Marvin was laying on the couch, watching his uncle, the man who had raised him, the man he called dad, smoke a cigarette on the front porch.
马文躺在沙发上，看着他的叔叔，那个抚养他长大的人，他称之为爸爸的人，在前廊上抽烟。
And I could see his body, his silhouette outside the window.
我可以在窗外看到他的身体和他的轮廓。
A little breeze coming on a warm July night.
七月温暖的夜晚，一阵微风吹来。
The screen door opens, and he comes in.
纱门打开，他进来了。
He's walking real slow.
他走得很慢。
And he just sort of flops down.
他就这样倒下了。
And as he flops down, I had to sort of pull my legs up real quick, otherwise he would've sat on my legs.
当他倒下时，我必须快速把腿拉起来，否则他就会坐在我的腿上。
And I'm thinking, Dad wouldn't just sit on my legs like that.
我在想，爸爸不会就这样坐在我腿上。
What's wrong?
怎么了？
And then he says, you know, you're doing very well.
然后他说，你知道，你做得很好。
He says, I'm proud of you.
他说，我为你感到骄傲。
You're a good young man.
你是一个好年轻人。
And I said, well, thanks, Dad.
我说，好吧，谢谢，爸爸。
So he says to me, I want you to go and sleep in the big bed.
所以他对我说，我想让你去睡在大床上。
Marvin usually slept on the cot in the middle room.
马文通常睡在中间房间的小床上。
It was the man of the house who slept in the big bed.
睡在大床上的是一家之主。
So I go into the bedroom where the big bed, his bed, is, and I get ready to turn off the light.
于是我走进卧室，那里有一张大床，也就是他的床，我准备关灯。
And as I get ready to turn off the light, I just hear this harsh sound.
当我准备关灯时，我听到了刺耳的声音。
A gasp.
一声喘息。
And so I go back into the room and I see him, and I know he's gone.
于是我回到房间，看到了他，我知道他已经走了。
And then I just closed his eyes.
然后我就闭上了他的眼睛。
Marvin was now all alone, no close family to turn to, grieving.
马文现在孤身一人，没有亲密的家人可以求助，悲痛欲绝。
Then he got a letter from Headmaster Austin Montgomery, offering his sympathy and urging Marvin to return to school in the fall.
然后他收到了校长奥斯汀·蒙哥马利的一封信，表达了他的同情并敦促马文在秋季重返学校。
"I hope you know, Marvin, what deep respect and affection and what high hopes I have for you.
“我希望你知道，马文，我对你抱有多么深切的尊重和感情以及多么高的期望。
I think you took hold of what could have been a difficult situation this past year and handled it manfully in the very best sense of that word.
我认为你在过去的一年里抓住了可能是一个困难的局面，并以最好的方式勇敢地处理了它。
You did yourself great credit.
你为自己立下了很大的功劳。
I hope that you had a happy year, and one that you think was profitable.
我希望您度过了愉快的一年，并且您认为这一年是有利可图的。
Probably you did at least as much for VES as it did for you.
也许您为 VES 所做的事情至少和它为您所做的一样多。
Let me say that, whether it matters to you or not, the school needs you, and you at your very best, working and playing hard and speaking up with humor and wisdom for what you think is right and important."
让我说，无论对你是否重要，学校需要你，需要你发挥出最好的状态，努力工作、玩耍，用幽默和智慧说出你认为正确和重要的事情。”
The fall of 1968, Marvin returned for his sophomore year.
1968 年秋天，马文回来读大二。
Bill, too.
比尔也是。
But Headmaster Austin Montgomery was gone.
但校长奥斯汀·蒙哥马利已经走了。
The details aren't totally clear, but it seems like there was pressure on him to leave.
细节尚不完全清楚，但似乎他受到了离开的压力。
Austin was a Northerner with a bristly temperament, and he'd pushed the school to integrate.
奥斯汀是北方人，性情刚硬，是他推动学校整合的。
His replacement was a Southerner, an institutional guy who played by the rules.
他的继任者是一位南方人，一位遵守规则的机构人士。
But before Austin left, he made sure the Stouffer experiment continued with two new Black students joining Marvin and Bill that fall, two boys they looked after and checked in on.
但在奥斯汀离开之前，他确保斯托弗实验继续进行，那年秋天，两名新黑人学生加入了马文和比尔，他们照顾并检查了这两个男孩。
And the experiment started to shape who Marvin was.
这个实验开始塑造马文的形象。
He became a little more fire.
他变得更加火了一点。
He grew more militant.
他变得更加好战。
I grew a bigger Afro, which also gave me some height.
我留了一个更大的爆炸头，这也让我长高了一些。
Partly in response to white students who decorated their rooms with the Confederate flag, Marvin started wearing dashikis, and--
部分是为了回应白人学生用南方联盟旗帜装饰他们的房间，马文开始穿着 dashikis，而且——
My facial expressions were different, like I'm looking at you right now.
我的面部表情有所不同，就像我现在正在看着你一样。
And I was looking like I could hurt you if you step on me.
我看起来好像如果你踩到我我就会伤害你。
OK.
好的。
It's like, yeah, you're my bud and everything like that, but you don't tread on me, OK?
就好像，是的，你是我的好朋友之类的，但你别踩我，好吗？
You don't disrespect me.
你没有不尊重我。
Meanwhile, they doubled down on proving they were the best.
与此同时，他们加倍努力证明自己是最好的。
They were defiant.
他们很挑衅。
It definitely made me want to work even harder.
这确实让我想更加努力地工作。
And I wanted to make a statement by making a bigger gap between our being number one and number two and whoever was three and four.
我想通过在我们的第一名和第二名以及第三名和第四名之间拉开更大的差距来发表声明。
I didn't want it to be perceived that it was something that was an aberration.
我不想让人认为这是一种异常现象。
It was very close.
非常接近。
And that's how we could really fight.
这就是我们真正可以战斗的方式。
We could really fight by being better students.
我们真的可以通过成为更好的学生来奋斗。
It worked.
它起作用了。
Bill and Marvin were popular, good athletes, exceptional students, guys everyone at VES looked up to.
比尔和马文是受欢迎的、优秀的运动员、优秀的学生，是 VES 的每个人都尊敬的人。
Bill lettered early, showed up his sophomore year with his varsity jacket.
比尔很早就来信了，二年级时就穿着校队夹克出现了。
They were football champions one year, dorm leaders another year, friends with the white guys.
他们一年是足球冠军，另一年是宿舍领导，是白人的朋友。
Bill and Marvin held the number one and number two academic rankings all four years they were at VES, the pinnacle of Anne Forsyth's hopes.
比尔和马文在 VES 的四年里一直保持着第一和第二的学术排名，这是安妮·福赛思 (Anne Forsyth) 希望的顶峰。
They chipped away at white supremacy by being supreme.
他们通过至高无上的方式削弱了白人至上主义。
I got to feel the real impact of all of this about a year ago when I went to VES for the school's 100-year reunion.
大约一年前，当我去 VES 参加学校 100 周年聚会时，我感受到了这一切的真正影响。
Walking around campus with Bill and Marvin was like being with celebrities.
和比尔和马文一起在校园里散步就像和名人在一起一样。
Every few paces, a former classmate would stop them and offer kind words, give them a slap on the back.
每隔几步，就有一位以前的同学拦住他们，说些好话，拍拍他们的背。
Good to see you, Marvin!
很高兴见到你，马文！
I thought I recognized you.
我以为我认出了你。
In the main building on campus, there's a display that commemorates Marvin and Bill.
在校园的主楼里，有一个纪念马文和比尔的展览。
There's photos of them from their freshman and senior years, like a before and after.
有他们一年级和四年级的照片，就像之前和之后的照片。
I want you to pay attention to 1967.
我希望你关注1967年。
See how we come in?
看看我们怎么进来的？
Look at the bright eyes, and we're all happy.
看看那双明亮的眼睛，我们都很高兴。
Bill with some schoolboy glasses on and a suit.
比尔戴着一副男生眼镜，穿着西装。
Short, trimmed hair.
短发，修剪整齐。
You with a plaid jacket.
穿格子外套的你。
That's right.
没错。
We were just happy to be here.
我们很高兴来到这里。
The reunion was the first time that most of the Stouffer students had been together again since Bill and Marvin's senior year.
这次重聚是自比尔和马文高年级以来大多数斯托弗学生第一次再次聚在一起。
By the time they were seniors, there were seven Black students at VES.
当他们读大四时，VES 已有七名黑人学生。
They took to calling themselves The Magnificent Seven.
他们开始称自己为“七侠”。
That weekend, those who were there were honored and got a standing ovation.
那个周末，在场的人都感到很荣幸，并获得了全场起立鼓掌。
Mosi Secret But something else happened that weekend at the reunion, something that reveals a different side of this social experiment.
莫西的秘密 但那个周末的聚会上还发生了一些其他的事情，揭示了这个社会实验的不同侧面。
Some of the guys in The Magnificent Seven were hoping they could take a photograph of all seven of them together, and they kept asking me about one person, a guy who was missing, Johnny Halloway.
《七雄》中的一些人希望能拍一张他们七个人在一起的照片，他们一直向我询问一个人的情况，一个失踪的人，约翰尼·哈洛威。
Johnny was one of the two Black students who came to VES the year after Bill and Marvin.
约翰尼是继比尔和马文之后第二年来到 VES 的两名黑人学生之一。
Is Johnny-- did you get up with Johnny?
约翰尼——你和约翰尼起床了吗？
You didn't get up with Johnny Halloway, did you?
你没有和约翰尼·哈洛威起床，是吗？
That's Terry Sherrill, one of The Magnificent Seven, asking me about Johnny.
那是特里·谢里尔，七侠之一，向我询问约翰尼的情况。
I spoke with Johnny.
我和约翰尼谈过。
Terry Sherrill You did speak to him?
特里·谢里尔 你确实和他说过话了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Terry Sherrill Did he say he was coming?
特里·谢里尔 他说过他要来吗？
Johnny is not coming.
约翰尼不会来。
I'd gotten in touch with Johnny while reporting this story.
我在报道这个故事时与约翰尼取得了联系。
I told Terry that Johnny was now a pastor at a church in Durham, North Carolina.
我告诉特里，约翰尼现在是北卡罗来纳州达勒姆一座教堂的牧师。
Do you know the name of the church?
你知道教堂的名字吗？
Because we're thinking about trying to go up there maybe Sunday and surprise him at his church.
因为我们正在考虑也许周日去那里，在他的教堂里给他一个惊喜。
Wow.
哇。
Terry Sherrill If we could get the details of his church, we will go.
特里·谢里尔 如果我们能得到他的教堂的详细信息，我们就会去。
Maybe you can hear in my voice, I didn't think Johnny would like that surprise because Johnny, he was not Bill and Marvin.
也许你可以从我的声音中听出，我认为约翰尼不会喜欢这个惊喜，因为约翰尼，他不是比尔和马文。
He did not celebrate VES the way they did.
他没有像他们那样庆祝 VES。
Coming up, what exactly happened to Johnny?
接下来，约翰尼到底发生了什么？
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, Essay B.
今天的节目，论文B.
What happens when you create a project whose main goal is to integrate schools for the benefit of the white students there?
当您创建一个主要目标是为了白人学生的利益而整合学校的项目时，会发生什么？
How does that work out for everybody?
这对每个人来说效果如何？
If you're just tuning in, we're in the middle of a story by reporter Mosi Secret.
如果您刚刚收听，我们正在收听记者 Mosi Secret 的报道。
He also did a version of this story this week for The New York Times Magazine.
本周他还为《纽约时报》杂志制作了这个故事的一个版本。
That's at nytimes.com/integration.
网址为 nytimes.com/integration。
Right before the break, Mosi was explaining that a guy named Johnny Halloway decided not to return to VES for their reunion for reasons of his own.
就在中场休息之前，Mosi 解释说，一个名叫 Johnny Halloway 的人出于自己的原因决定不再回到 VES 参加他们的重聚。
Mosi picks up the story from there.
莫西从那里开始讲述这个故事。
A month before, I'd gotten on the phone with Johnny, and pretty quickly, he told me this.
一个月前，我和约翰尼通了电话，他很快就告诉了我这件事。
I took a lot of beatings.
我挨了很多打。
I don't know if anyone else has spoken about that.
我不知道其他人是否也谈到过这一点。
No, they hadn't.
不，他们没有。
Johnny told me he was beaten several times, always by the same guys, and he was certain it was racially motivated.
约翰尼告诉我，他被殴打了好几次，而且总是被同一个人殴打，他确信这是出于种族动机。
He said he never told the other Black students about it.
他说他从未告诉其他黑人学生这件事。
He said there was no point.
他说没有意义。
So I went to visit Johnny at his church to talk more about this.
所以我去约翰尼的教堂拜访他，进一步讨论这个问题。
Johnny's church is called Cup of Salvation.
约翰尼的教堂被称为救恩杯。
It's a storefront church in Durham, North Carolina off a state highway in a complex with a bingo hall, daycare center, and a beauty salon.
这是位于北卡罗来纳州达勒姆市的一座店面教堂，位于国道旁，建筑群内设有宾果游戏厅、日托中心和美容院。
At first, Johnny didn't want to go into details about what happened.
起初，约翰尼不想详细说明所发生的事情。
But eventually, he told me what those beatings were like.
但最终，他告诉我那些殴打是什么样的。
If you could imagine yourself being in bed, asleep, and somebody throwing your sheet over your head and you're suddenly being pummeled by a bunch of guys.
如果你能想象自己躺在床上，睡着了，有人把你的床单扔到你头上，你突然被一群人殴打。
That's pretty intense.
那是相当激烈的。
At 14 years old, feeling that you have no sanctuary at all, feeling that you're really not safe from getting beat up, and that you're doing it not just for yourself, but for a movement that's larger than yourself, taking that kind of beating, and it hurts when you get hit.
14岁，感觉自己根本没有避难所，感觉自己真的不安全，不只是为了自己，而是为了一个比自己更大的运动，承受那样的打击，被打的时候很痛。
Then you don't sleep the rest of the night because you don't know if they're coming back.
然后你整个晚上都睡不着，因为你不知道他们是否会回来。
You're crying.
你在哭。
You're angry.
你很生气。
You're hurt.
你受伤了。
The next day, when you go out to breakfast, you're looking around, trying to see if you can identify everybody that did it because of how maybe they're looking at you.
第二天，当你出去吃早餐时，你环顾四周，试图看看你是否能辨认出做这件事的每个人，因为他们可能是如何看着你的。
You wonder if everybody else knows, and if they're laughing behind your back.
你想知道其他人是否都知道，以及他们是否在背后嘲笑你。
It's humiliating, but it also it made me angry.
这很丢脸，但也让我很生气。
It made me hostile in some ways.
这在某些方面让我充满敌意。
After his freshman year, things got better for Johnny.
大一结束后，约翰尼的情况有所好转。
The upperclassmen who beat him graduated.
击败他的高年级学生毕业了。
He settled in, sang in the glee club, made new friends.
他安顿下来，在欢乐合唱团里唱歌，结交了新朋友。
He learned that he could perform as well or better than white people.
他了解到他可以表现得与白人一样好甚至更好。
The beatings, that was just one part of his experience at VES.
殴打，这只是他在 VES 经历的一部分。
I was pretty aware that I was going to be an ambassador, a pioneer, a lab rat.
我很清楚我将成为一名大使、一名先驱、一只实验室老鼠。
So I was pretty aware that what I was being asked to do was bigger than me.
所以我很清楚，我被要求做的事情比我自己更重要。
But I didn't really want to be a racial ambassador.
但我真的不想成为种族大使。
I just wanted to be a kid growing up, going to school.
我只想成为一个长大的孩子，上学。
I explained to him that one of the goals of the program was to teach white kids about Black people-- to benefit the white guys, like the bullies who came into his room at night.
我向他解释说，该计划的目标之一是向白人孩子传授黑人知识，让白人受益，比如晚上进入他房间的恶霸。
The fact that he was beat up is part of that experiment, The Foundation never knew about that.
他被殴打的事实是该实验的一部分，基金会从来不知道这一点。
I don't recall anybody from The Stouffer Foundation talking to me at all after I was admitted into VES.
我不记得在我被 VES 录取后，斯托弗基金会的任何人都没有和我说过话。
And I could be wrong about that, but I don't recall ever having a conversation with anyone to follow up and see how was I doing, how was it working out or whatever.
我的想法可能是错的，但我不记得曾与任何人进行过对话，以跟进并了解我做得如何，进展如何或其他什么。
So I did feel, at that point, like I had been thrown into this thing and then, if it works, it works.
所以我当时确实觉得我被扔进了这件事，然后，如果它有效，它就有效。
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
如果没有，那就没有。
But I didn't feel used.
但我并没有感到被利用。
I didn't blame them.
我没有责怪他们。
I felt like they had given me an opportunity and I appreciated the opportunity.
我觉得他们给了我一个机会，我很感激这个机会。
Johnny reluctantly told me two names of people who had beaten him.
约翰尼不情愿地告诉了我两个殴打他的人的名字。
One of the guys is dead.
其中一名男子已经死了。
I tried the other multiple times, but he didn't respond.
我又试了很多次，但他没有回应。
I talked to Johnny's roommate from the time, and he confirmed that this happened.
我和约翰尼当时的室友交谈过，他证实了这件事的发生。
He said it happened to him, too.
他说这也发生在他身上。
He told me there was one guy who was so racist, so hostile towards him, that he had fantasies of pushing the kid off the dorm roof.
他告诉我，有一个人非常种族主义，对他充满敌意，他幻想着把这个孩子从宿舍屋顶上推下去。
Anne Forsyth and The Stouffer Foundation eventually ran out of money in 1976.
1976 年，安妮·福赛思 (Anne Forsyth) 和斯托弗基金会 (The Stouffer Foundation) 最终耗尽了资金。
In the '70s, there were just a few more Black students.
在 70 年代，只有少数黑人学生。
Eventually, more Black students started going to VES in the '80s.
最终，更多的黑人学生在 80 年代开始进入 VES。
Not through any formal effort-- more people just started applying.
并不是通过任何正式的努力——更多的人刚刚开始申请。
And today, a little less than 9% of the student population is Black.
如今，黑人学生占学生总数的比例略低于 9%。
There are other students of color, as well.
还有其他有色人种的学生。
Two of the Stouffer scholars have been on the board at VES.
两名斯托弗学者曾是 VES 的董事会成员。
Bill has a scholarship for Black students in his name.
比尔以他的名义为黑人学生提供了一项奖学金。
So one of the goals of Stouffer-- integrating these schools-- that's happened in 20 schools.
因此，斯托弗的目标之一——整合这些学校——已经在 20 所学校实现了。
Another-- providing opportunity for Black students-- that's the clearest victory in this effort.
另一个——为黑人学生提供机会——这是这项努力中最明显的胜利。
Marvin and Bill are both doctors now.
马文和比尔现在都是医生。
Bill went to Harvard.
比尔去了哈佛。
Marvin decided to go to the best historically Black college in the country, Howard University.
马文决定去美国历史上最好的黑人大学——霍华德大学。
He was tired of representing all Black people.
他厌倦了代表所有黑人。
Among the other 140 Stouffer scholars, there are doctors, lawyers, a political operative, a judge, teachers, corporate leaders.
其他 140 名斯托弗学者中，有医生、律师、政治人物、法官、教师、企业领导人。
But what about the goal that made Anne Forsyth want to do this in the first place-- the idea that this would change the hearts and minds of white students?
但是，安妮·福赛思最初想要这样做的目标是什么呢——这将改变白人学生的心灵和思想？
Someone did try to measure this.
有人确实尝试过测量这一点。
In 1973, John Ehle commissioned a survey of students' attitudes about race in the prep schools they integrated, but it wasn't scientifically done.
1973 年，约翰·埃勒 (John Ehle) 委托对他们就读的预科学校的学生对种族的态度进行了一项调查，但调查的结果并不科学。
And a few students wrote letters asking things like, why the questionnaire on Black students when there are only three in the whole school?
还有一些学生写信询问诸如这样的问题：全校只有三名黑人学生，为什么还要对黑人学生进行调查？
We conducted our own unscientific survey and called around to a bunch of white VES alums.
我们自己进行了不科学的调查，并拜访了一群白人 VES 校友。
Most didn't want to engage the question at all.
大多数人根本不想讨论这个问题。
They didn't want to talk about race head-on.
他们不想正面谈论种族问题。
We heard a lot of polite dodges about how color didn't mean anything or we didn't see them as Black.
我们听到很多礼貌的回避，说颜色没有任何意义，或者我们不认为它们是黑色。
We saw them as classmates.
我们把他们视为同学。
Or I don't remember it being an issue.
或者我不记得这是一个问题。
But I was able to find one guy who seemed changed and who was game to talk about it.
但我找到了一个看起来有所改变并且乐于谈论这件事的人。
John Harman, class of '72, the same class as Johnny Halloway, the guy who didn't show up at reunion.
约翰·哈曼 (John Harman)，72 届学生，与约翰尼·哈洛威 (Johnny Halloway) 是同一个班级，后者没有出现在同学聚会上。
John Harman came to VES from Tazewell, Virginia, a town of about 4,000.
约翰·哈曼 (John Harman) 从弗吉尼亚州塔兹韦尔 (Tazewell) 来到 VES，该镇约有 4,000 人。
Growing up, the legacy of Jim Crow was all around him.
在他的成长过程中，吉姆·克劳的遗产一直围绕着他。
His family used to go to the theater on Main Street, where Blacks had to sit in the balcony.
他的家人过去常常去主街的剧院，黑人必须坐在阳台上。
His father was a lawyer who used the town's Confederate soldier statue as a landmark.
他的父亲是一名律师，以该镇的南部邦联士兵雕像作为地标。
And he'd say, when you get on Main Street in Tazewell, find a Confederate soldier, and he's looking across the street, right in my office window.
他会说，当你走上塔兹韦尔的大街时，发现一名南部邦联士兵，他正看着街对面，就在我办公室的窗户里。
There was a pretty good, old Southern, Confederate flag, pickup truck culture back there.
那里有一种非常好的、古老的南方、邦联旗帜、皮卡车文化。
The word [BLEEP] was just used without even thinking.
[BLEEP]这个词是想都没想就用了。
It was just no animosity, necessarily, but just a notion of they're them, and we's us, and we're probably inherently different.
这不一定是敌意，只是他们是他们，我们是我们，我们可能本质上是不同的。
And it's a small town.
这是一个小镇。
You just didn't interact with them.
你只是没有和他们互动而已。
Do you think that you were racist when you got to VES?
当你进入 VES 时，你认为你是种族主义者吗？
Probably.
大概。
Probably.
大概。
Not in an overt, hostile way, but I'm sure I had attitudes that would be fairly described as racist, sure.
不是以一种公开的、敌对的方式，但我确信我的态度可以被公平地描述为种族主义，当然。
Oh, sure.
哦，当然。
Sure, absolutely.
当然，绝对。
Mosi Secret Jerrauld was another Stouffer scholar.
莫西·秘密·杰罗尔德是另一位斯托弗学者。
John says that he and Jerrauld really got to know each other junior year.
约翰说他和杰罗德在大三时就真正认识了彼此。
They were on the yearbook staff together, John working as a photographer, and Jerrauld as an editor.
他们一起担任年鉴工作人员，约翰担任摄影师，杰罗尔德担任编辑。
And they used to joke around about how different they were.
他们常常开玩笑说他们有多么不同。
John was a white country boy who was seldom without his .22 rifle, and Jerrauld was a Black kid from Norfolk, the big city, in John's eyes.
约翰是一个白人乡下男孩，很少随身带着他的0.22步枪，而杰罗尔德在约翰眼中是来自大城市诺福克的黑人孩子。
John went on to work as an engineer for the railroad.
约翰继续担任铁路工程师。
He had a lot of Black coworkers, and he says, outside of VES, it was his first daily close contact with Black people.
他有很多黑人同事，他说，在 VES 之外，这是他第一次与黑人进行日常密切接触。
And his experience at VES prepped him for that.
他在 VES 的经历为他做好了准备。
He says he understood they were the same as him.
他说他知道他们和他是一样的。
He didn't interact much with his Black coworkers socially, but he says he became less racist over time.
他与黑人同事的社交互动不多，但他说，随着时间的推移，他的种族主义情绪有所减少。
There was no epiphany, where you smack your forehead and go, wow!
没有顿悟，你拍拍额头然后说，哇！
It's more like watching it get dark at night.
这更像是在晚上看着天色变黑。
You can't really watch it happen as it happens, but it just ends up being dark.
你无法真正看到它发生，但最终只是一片黑暗。
I guess that's the way learning is.
我想这就是学习的方式吧。
You don't really realize it's happening until all of the sudden you realize, huh, there's a change in me.
你并没有真正意识到这一切正在发生，直到你突然意识到，嗯，我发生了变化。
It's a really lovely thought, I just kind of wish he'd used a sunrise metaphor instead.
这真是一个可爱的想法，我只是希望他用日出的比喻来代替。
At the reunion, John heard that Jerrauld and the other Black students were put into his school partly for his benefit, to change his thinking.
在聚会上，约翰听说杰罗德和其他黑人学生被安排到他的学校，部分原因是为了他的利益，改变他的想法。
I told him how a couple got beat up.
我告诉他一对夫妇是如何被殴打的。
They faced racial slurs.
他们面临种族歧视。
Was it fair to put that on them?
把这个放在他们身上公平吗？
I'm sorry it happened.
我很抱歉发生了这样的事。
I never realized the racial crap that they put up with.
我从来没有意识到他们所忍受的种族歧视。
I think it's a fair question, what you're asking, but I don't see a way around it.
我认为这是一个公平的问题，你在问什么，但我没有找到解决办法。
There is no way you're going to take young, southern, white males of privilege and educate them in diverse ways without exposing them to Black students.
你不可能在不让黑人学生接触的情况下，以不同的方式接受年轻的、南方的、有特权的白人男性。
And you're going to be asking a lot of the Blacks what you're going to put in that situation.
你会问很多黑人，在这种情况下你会采取什么措施。
He said he thought about Jerrauld for years when they weren't in touch.
他说，当他们没有联系时，他有很多年都在想念杰罗德。
He'd see things on the news, especially things going on in the country, like Charlottesville, and think about Jerrauld and wonder what he thought.
他会在新闻上看到一些事情，尤其是在夏洛茨维尔这样的乡村发生的事情，然后想起杰罗德，想知道他在想什么。
He wanted to hear his opinion.
他想听听他的意见。
I ran that by Jerrauld.
我是由杰罗尔德负责的。
It was a surprise to him.
这对他来说是一个惊喜。
I believe John when he tells me his experience with Jerrauld changed him.
我相信约翰告诉我他和杰罗德的经历改变了他。
By the time he had two high school-aged daughters, he could point to what that change meant.
当他有了两个上高中的女儿时，他可以指出这种变化意味着什么。
I can recall coming in after work or something, and maybe it'd be 8 o'clock at night and there'd be a half a dozen kids up here with pizzas from Little Caesar's, and there might be two Black guys in there.
我记得下班后进来的时候，也许是晚上 8 点，有六个孩子拿着小凯撒店的披萨，里面可能有两个黑人。
My attitude when I was growing up would have been, what are they doing here?
当我长大时，我的态度是，他们在这里做什么？
As opposed to, instead, now, it's just like, hey, look who's here.
相反，现在，就像，嘿，看看谁在这里。
It's just a bunch of kids here.
这里只是一群孩子。
I knew them and I liked them, and I was glad to have them in the house.
我认识他们，我喜欢他们，我很高兴有他们在家里。
And without VES, I probably wouldn't have that attitude.
如果没有 VES，我可能不会有这样的态度。
And I actually was aware of that, looking at it and sort of thinking, damn, John, you've come a ways since you were a young man.
我实际上意识到了这一点，看着它，我想，该死的，约翰，从你还是个年轻人的时候起，你就已经取得了很大的进步。
When Anne Forsyth started this experiment in the '60s, her vision was way grander than this.
当 Anne Forsyth 在 60 年代开始这项实验时，她的愿景比这要宏伟得多。
She was picturing future titans of industry, governors and senators whose prejudice would be melted away.
她想象着未来的工业巨头、州长和参议员的偏见将被消除。
And she launched this idealistic project not really knowing what she was doing, but taking her best shot.
她启动了这个理想主义项目，但并不真正知道自己在做什么，而是尽力而为。
I think she never would have pictured this as one of the results-- a middle-aged white man stumbling onto a pizza party and thinking everything was all right, and in a sense, looking back over years that he wasn't all right before.
我想她永远不会把这想象成结果之一——一个中年白人跌跌撞撞地参加披萨派对，认为一切都好，从某种意义上说，回顾过去几年，他以前并不好。
It's so modest, but it's something.
它是如此谦虚，但它是一些东西。
Mosi Secret.
莫西秘密.
He's an Eric and Wendy Schmidt fellow at New America.
他是新美国的埃里克和温迪·施密特研究员。
He's working on a book about the Stouffer experiment.
他正在写一本关于斯托弗实验的书。
At our website this week, you can see pictures of Bill and Marvin as freshmen and seniors and read part of their applications.
本周在我们的网站上，您可以看到比尔和马文作为新生和大四学生的照片，并阅读他们的部分申请。
That's thisamericanlife.org.
那是 thisamericanlife.org。
Our program was produced today by Susan Burton.
我们今天的节目由苏珊·伯顿制作。
Our staff includes Elise Bergerson, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Mariya Karimjee, Jonathan Menjivar, BA Parker, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lily Sullivan, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.
我们的员工包括 Elise Bergerson、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Mariya Karimjee、Jonathan Menjivar、BA Parker、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lily Sullivan、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Research help from Michelle Harris.
米歇尔·哈里斯的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef.
达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 的音乐帮助。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he went to a concert years ago and it really influenced his style of singing in the shower.
你知道，他几年前去听过一场音乐会，这确实影响了他在淋浴时唱歌的风格。
So even now, I sound a lot like a 13-year-old Hilary Duff.
所以即使是现在，我听起来也很像 13 岁的希拉里·达芙 (Hilary Duff)。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。