624: Private Geography - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #624 | September 1, 2017 624: Private Geography Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 624 集 | 2017 年 9 月 1 日 624：私人地理 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
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Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
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Prologue Ira Glass OK, I don't know exactly what this says about Australia, but when you win this big literary prize they have there, the Melbourne Prize for Literature, you're required to spend half the money, half of it, to get out of Melbourne and travel abroad.
序言艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）好吧，我不太清楚这对澳大利亚来说意味着什么，但是当你赢得了他们那里的文学大奖——墨尔本文学奖时，你需要花一半的钱，一半的钱，离开墨尔本，出国旅行。
Which is sort of weird, right?
这有点奇怪，对吧？
Like they're saying simultaneously, let's celebrate the culture of Melbourne, and then they're giving you the money to escape it.
就像他们同时说的那样，让我们庆祝墨尔本的文化，然后他们会给你钱来逃离它。
A few years ago when this great Australian novelist named Gerald Murnane learned that he was nominated, he asked that his name be withdrawn from consideration.
几年前，当这位伟大的澳大利亚小说家杰拉尔德·穆南 (Gerald Murnane) 得知自己获得提名时，他要求不再考虑自己的名字。
Because there was no way he was going to leave the country.
因为他不可能离开这个国家。
This is Helen Garner, an Australian who's won this prize herself, and who wrote about what happened when they wanted to give it to Murnane.
这是海伦·加纳 (Helen Garner)，一位澳大利亚人，她自己赢得了这个奖项，她写下了当他们想把这个奖项授予穆南时发生的事情。
He's noted for the fact that he doesn't like to travel.
他因不喜欢旅行而闻名。
I don't think he's ever been outside Australia.
我认为他从未出过澳大利亚。
And he makes a point of saying that he's never going to leave this country.
他特意说他永远不会离开这个国家。
He's never wanted to, and he thinks that everything one needs to know could be known just as well here as anywhere else in the world.
他从来不想这样做，而且他认为人们需要知道的一切在这里都可以像世界其他任何地方一样了解。
But he's this deeply original writer, and the committee decided to bend the rules for him.
但他是一位极具原创性的作家，委员会决定为他放宽规则。
Helen was in the auditorium when he received the award.
当他领奖时，海伦正在礼堂里。
And he was obviously in his rather inward introverted sort of way terribly happy to have won the prize.
显然，他以一种相当内向的方式对获奖感到非常高兴。
And he explained to the audience his stand on international travel.
他向观众解释了他对国际旅行的立场。
But he said, in the spirit of the prize, he would do something else.
但他表示，本着获奖的精神，他会做其他事情。
He would use some of the prize money to fill his car with gas and drive around to some of the places that he had lived in and around Melbourne.
他会用一些奖金给他的汽车加满油，然后开车去墨尔本及其周边他曾经居住过的一些地方。
And that was when the speech became really wonderful, because he just kind of tilted his head back and closed his eyes and reeled off this list of addresses, his former addresses in the suburbs of Melbourne.
就在那时，演讲变得非常精彩，因为他只是把头向后仰，闭上眼睛，滔滔不绝地念出这份地址清单，他以前在墨尔本郊区的地址。
And they were very undistinguished parts of town.
而且它们是镇上非常不起眼的地方。
They're the very obscure suburbs that nobody ever talks about and nothing dramatic ever seems to happen there.
它们是非常不起眼的郊区，没有人谈论过，那里似乎也没有发生过任何戏剧性的事情。
And he reeled them off like somebody chanting or praying by heart.
他把它们滔滔不绝地说出来，就像有人在心里吟诵或祈祷一样。
He had them all by heart in chronological order.
他按照时间顺序把它们全都记在心里了。
Yes, all right.
是的，好吧。
We would say The Avenue, Coburg; Breese Street, Brunswick; Plenty Road, Bundoora.
我们会说科堡大街；布伦瑞克布里斯街；充足路，邦杜拉。
There's no recording of this speech, but when I phoned Gerald Murnane at his home, he was able to recite for me all 20 locations from memory in the order that he lived in them.
这段演讲没有录音，但当我给杰拉尔德·穆南 (Gerald Murnane) 家打电话时，他能够按照他居住的顺序，凭记忆为我背诵出所有 20 个地点。
And the end of the list is Ray Street, Pascoe Vale; Bakers Road, North Coburg; Peter Street, South Oakleigh; and then Legon Road, South Oakley; and then Filbert Street, South Caulfied.
名单的最后是帕斯科谷的雷街；北科堡贝克斯路；南奥克利彼得街；然后是南奥克利的 Legon 路；然后是南考尔菲德的菲尔伯特街。
What we knew was that he was really reciting a kind of a poem of such modestly named places that had such meaning to him.
我们所知道的是，他实际上是在背诵一首诗，诗中的地点名字并不起眼，但对他来说却意义重大。
Gweno Avenue, Frankston; Fitzroy Street in Kilda; River Street, South Yarra.
格韦诺大道，弗兰克斯顿；基尔达菲茨罗伊街；南亚拉河街。
And there was something so wonderful about it.
这其中有一些奇妙的东西。
And then when he finished and opened his eyes and looked around, the whole place just went up in a roar where everyone was delighted, and half laughing, and half tearful.
当他说完，睁开眼睛环顾四周时，全场一片欢呼，每个人都欣喜若狂，半笑半泪。
It was very moving and wonderful.
这是非常令人感动和美妙的。
I'm terribly glad that I was there.
我非常高兴我在那里。
Gerald Murnane told me even he was moved by it.
杰拉尔德·穆南 (Gerald Murnane) 告诉我，他也被这件事感动了。
Place and locality and these things, they do matter much to me.
地方和地点以及这些事情对我来说确实很重要。
I've got this sort of mental geography.
我有这样的心理地理。
In a way, it's probably been bred into me by the fact that I move so often.
在某种程度上，这可能是由于我经常搬家而养成的。
We moved almost every year because my father was a gambler on race horses and also a reckless man who was always looking for-- he just couldn't sit in one place.
我们几乎每年都会搬家，因为我的父亲是一个赛马赌徒，也是一个鲁莽的人，总是在寻找——他就是不能坐在一个地方。
We lived at all these different addresses.
我们住在所有这些不同的地址。
(INTERVIEW) IRA GLASS: When you list them off like that, is the feeling nostalgia, or is it even stronger?
（采访） IRA GLASS：当你这样列出它们时，是怀旧的感觉还是更强烈？
Is it a feeling of like, this is me, that in some way you're describing yourself?
是不是有一种感觉，这就是我，你在以某种方式描述你自己？
You nearly got it right, then-- I feel a sense of pride-- I'm not boasting, but I feel a sense of pride that I survived all that.
那么，你几乎做对了——我感到一种自豪感——我不是在吹嘘，但我为自己熬过了这一切而感到自豪。
I mean, when I say survive, we were quite poor.
我的意思是，当我说生存时，我们很穷。
(INTERVIEW) IRA GLASS: I grew up in the suburbs of Baltimore, which is a city not far from Washington, DC.
（采访）IRA GLASS：我在巴尔的摩郊区长大，这是一个距离华盛顿特区不远的城市。
Baltimore, Maryland.
马里兰州巴尔的摩。
(INTERVIEW) IRA GLASS: Yeah, yeah.
（采访） IRA GLASS： 是的，是的。
Baltimore, Maryland.
马里兰州巴尔的摩。
And when I look back on it, I feel like I understand that it shaped me in certain ways.
当我回顾它时，我觉得我明白它在某些方面塑造了我。
But I also feel like this is just a random place that happened to be the place that I grew up.
但我也觉得这只是一个随机的地方，恰好是我长大的地方。
Like, there's nothing special about it.
好像，没什么特别的。
I feel no attachment to it.
我对它没有任何依恋。
I have no sentimental feelings about the place.
我对这个地方没有任何感情。
And is your attachment to these places now that they seem special in some way, or are they simply familiar?
现在你对这些地方的依恋是因为它们在某种程度上看起来很特别，还是只是很熟悉？
Well, they certainly don't feel special, and I've said already that I don't go back to visit them.
嗯，他们当然不会觉得有什么特别，而且我已经说过我不会回去看望他们了。
I'm not attached to these places.
我对这些地方不感兴趣。
They attached themselves to me in a sense.
从某种意义上说，他们依附于我。
And I don't want to go back there.
我不想回到那里。
I don't want to be the person I was then.
我不想成为当时的我。
But I do want to remember them.
但我确实想记住他们。
I can't put it any better than that.
我无法说得比这更好了。
(INTERVIEW) IRA GLASS: Why?
（采访） IRA GLASS：为什么？
Gerald Murnane Remember them, because they made me.
杰拉尔德·穆南（Gerald Murnane）记住他们，因为他们创造了我。
The combination of all the strange experiences that I had, or lack of experience, or yearnings, or unfulfilled wants, they made me.
我所拥有的所有奇怪的经历，或缺乏经验，或渴望，或未满足的愿望的结合，它们造就了我。
Well, today on our program, we don't choose where we grow up.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们无法选择自己在哪里长大。
We don't choose the family we're born into.
我们无法选择自己出生的家庭。
And when we head out into the bigger world, that's the private geography we carry with us.
当我们走向更广阔的世界时，这就是我们随身携带的私人地理。
Today, we have two stories where we see what that geography reveals about two very different people.
今天，我们有两个故事，让我们看到地理揭示了两个截然不同的人。
One of them, current Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos.
其中之一，现任教育部长贝齐·德沃斯。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one, Vouching towards Bethlehem.
第一幕，向伯利恒担保。
So the issue that our Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos, has fought hardest for over the years, the issue that she hopes to engage as education secretary, is school choice in all of its forms.
因此，我们的教育部长贝特西·德沃斯（Betsy DeVos）多年来一直在努力解决的问题，她希望作为教育部长参与的问题，就是各种形式的择校问题。
One of those forms?
其中一种形式？
School choice means fostering a system of charter schools as alternatives to the regular public school system.
学校选择意味着培育特许学校系统作为常规公立学校系统的替代方案。
These schools are supposed to be laboratories of great teaching, places where some of the rules and regulations of regular public schools don't apply.
这些学校应该是优秀教学的实验室，普通公立学校的一些规章制度并不适用。
School choice also means vouchers, which, of course, lets parents pull their kids out of public schools, and put them into parochial schools, or church schools, or private schools of all kinds.
择校也意味着代金券，当然，这可以让父母把孩子从公立学校拉出来，送入教会学校、教会学校或各种私立学校。
And state money that had gone to the public schools would follow the children with a voucher to the private schools they enroll in.
投入公立学校的国家资金将随着孩子们拿着优惠券进入他们就读的私立学校。
DeVos says her interest in all this started when her son was entering Kindergarten.
德沃斯说，她对这一切的兴趣是在她儿子进入幼儿园时开始的。
She realized that she had the means to send him to any school she wanted to.
她意识到她有办法送他去任何她想去的学校。
She had a lot of money.
她有很多钱。
Why shouldn't every parent be able to do that?
为什么不是每个父母都能做到这一点呢？
So we decided at that time to help some other kids have the same opportunity as our children.
所以我们当时决定帮助其他一些孩子有和我们的孩子一样的机会。
We started work with that school, and then more broadly in our community funding scholarships, and realized very quickly that while we were helping individual children, which was important, it wasn't an effort that was particularly scalable.
我们开始与那所学校合作，然后更广泛地与我们的社区资助奖学金合作，并很快意识到，虽然我们帮助个别儿童（这很重要），但这并不是一项特别可扩展的工作。
So I really decided to get involved in public policy, which I thought was going to make the most difference.
所以我真的决定参与公共政策，我认为这会产生最大的影响。
Betsy DeVos made it into the President's cabinet with as low a vote as you can get and still squeak by.
贝齐·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 以尽可能低的票数进入总统内阁，但仍然勉强过关。
It was the first time in U.S. history that the Vice President has had to cast a tie-breaking vote to confirm a cabinet secretary.
这是美国历史上第一次副总统必须投出决定性的一票来确认内阁秘书。
She'd been an education advocate for decades, pushing for choice and vouchers in Michigan, where she's from.
几十年来，她一直是教育倡导者，在她的家乡密歇根州推动选择和教育券。
Her critics said she was a know-nothing, just some rich Republican donor with no qualifications for the job of education secretary, and specifically, no experience in the public schools.
她的批评者说，她是一个一无所知的人，只是一些富有的共和党捐助者，没有担任教育部长的资格，特别是没有在公立学校工作的经验。
That was the rap against her.
这就是对她的谩骂。
One of our producers, Susan Burton, grew up in the same home town as Betsy DeVos, Grand Rapids, Michigan, and has been aware of the DeVos family since she was a little kid.
我们的制片人之一苏珊·伯顿 (Susan Burton) 与贝琪·狄维士 (Betsy DeVos) 在密歇根州大急流城的同一个家乡长大，她从小就知道狄维士一家。
There are certain things you can learn about Betsy DeVos and her agenda by going to Grand Rapids.
通过前往大急流城，您可以了解有关贝特西·德沃斯和她的议程的某些信息。
Here's Susan.
这是苏珊。
One of the things you'd hear over and over in the weeks leading up to Betsy DeVos's confirmation hearings was that she'd never set foot in a public school.
在贝琪·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 确认听证会之前的几周里，你会一遍又一遍地听到的一件事是，她从未踏足过公立学校。
It was often phrased exactly this way.
人们经常这样表述。
People said it to news reporters, repeated it in speeches.
人们对新闻记者说这句话，在演讲中重复这句话。
Betsy DeVos has never set foot in a public school.
贝齐·德沃斯从未踏足过公立学校。
This woman has never stepped foot in a public school.
这位女士从未踏足过公立学校。
He nominated a woman who had never worked in, volunteered in, ever stepped foot in a public school until he chose her to be his Secretary of Education.
他提名了一位从未在公立学校工作过、做过志愿者、甚至踏足过公立学校的女性，直到他选择她担任教育部长。
That's the head of one of the two national teachers unions.
那是两个全国教师工会之一的主席。
But when I talked to people in Grand Rapids, I heard a different story, that she had spent time in a public school, volunteering as a mentor.
但当我与大急流城的人们交谈时，我听到了一个不同的故事，她在一所公立学校呆过一段时间，志愿担任导师。
At first, nobody could give me details.
起初，没有人能给我详细信息。
It was all rumors and secondhand information.
这全是谣言和二手信息。
Here's Elizabeth Welch, a local public school advocate.
这是当地公立学校倡导者伊丽莎白·韦尔奇的报道。
In just community conversations with people, we knew she hadn't been deeply involved in Grand Rapids Public.
在与人们的社区对话中，我们知道她并没有深入参与大急流城公共事业。
And so, I was through a few discussions where it was through the grapevine I had heard, oh, I heard she tutored some kids at Burton Elementary.
因此，我通过一些小道消息进行了一些讨论，哦，我听说她在伯顿小学辅导了一些孩子。
Well, I had heard that she had said she had done that kind of stuff.
嗯，我听说她说过她做过那种事。
But I didn't know where.
但我不知道在哪里。
This is Mary Bouwense, the head of the local teacher's union.
这是玛丽·布文斯，当地教师工会主席。
Because when she said I tutored in Grand Rapids, well, she could have been tutoring at one of the Christian elementaries.
因为当她说我在大急流城当家教时，好吧，她可能是在一所基督教小学当家教。
You know, it could have been in the area of Grand Rapids, 'cause sometimes people say Grand Rapids, but they mean Kentwood, or Wyoming, or one of the suburbs too.
你知道，它可能在大急流城地区，因为有时人们说大急流城，但他们指的是肯特伍德，或怀俄明州，或郊区之一。
They just say Grand Rapids as a general term.
他们只是将大急流城视为一个通用术语。
So I just assumed it was going to be the Christian schools that she tutored in when she showed up, because a lot of their money goes into those buildings.
所以我只是假设当她出现时，这将是她辅导的基督教学校，因为他们的很多钱都投入了这些建筑物。
So.
所以。
I'm from Grand Rapids, so I knew what Mary was talking about, the schools associated with the Christian Reformed Church.
我来自大急流城，所以我知道玛丽在说什么，与基督教归正会相关的学校。
I have friends who went to these schools.
我有朋友就读于这些学校。
My next door neighbor, Jason, went to Ada Christian.
我的隔壁邻居杰森去了艾达克里斯蒂安那里。
So did Jenny from swim team.
游泳队的珍妮也是如此。
Nicole from acting went to Seymour Christian.
妮可从演艺界转向了西摩·克里斯蒂安。
Betsy DeVos went to these schools, and also sent her own four children there.
贝琪·德沃斯就读于这些学校，也将她自己的四个孩子送到了那里。
The Christian Reformed Church has its own history of school choice.
基督教改革宗有自己的择校历史。
Back in the 1850s, a group of Dutch settlers in West Michigan split off from their church to form their own denomination.
早在 1850 年代，西密歇根州的一群荷兰定居者就从他们的教会分裂出来，成立了自己的教派。
And one of the big reasons-- they didn't want their children in public schools.
主要原因之一是他们不希望自己的孩子在公立学校上学。
They wanted their children to be formed in the faith, in their own schools, before sending them out into the world.
他们希望自己的孩子在被送入世界之前，在自己的学校里接受信仰的熏陶。
The idea that parents of all backgrounds should be able to choose a school reflecting their values and beliefs, that's part of the theological history of the CRC.
所有背景的家长都应该能够选择反映他们价值观和信仰的学校，这是 CRC 神学历史的一部分。
At first, I had a hard time finding people to talk about Betsy DeVos and the public school she volunteered in, partly because the DeVoses are such a prominent family in Grand Rapids.
起初，我很难找到人来谈论贝特西·德沃斯和她志愿参加的公立学校，部分原因是德沃斯家族是大急流城的一个显赫家族。
They're major philanthropists.
他们是主要的慈善家。
Lots of buildings have the DeVos name on them.
许多建筑物上都刻有狄维士的名字。
At age 10, I performed "It's a Hard Knock Life" from Annie with seven other girls on the stage in DeVos Hall, which is inside DeVos Place, which isn't so far from the Helen DeVos Children's Hospital, the Richard M.
10 岁时，我和另外七个女孩在狄维士大厅的舞台上表演了安妮的《It's a Hard Knock Life》，该大厅位于狄维士广场内，离海伦·狄维士儿童医院、理查德·M·狄维士医院不远。
DeVos Center, and a bit further out, the DeVos Center for Arts and Worship at Grand Rapids Christian High School.
德沃斯中心，再远一点，大急流城基督教高中的德沃斯艺术与崇拜中心。
The DeVos fortune comes from Amway.
狄维士的财富来自安利。
When I was a little girl, I wasn't exactly sure what Amway did.
当我还是个小女孩的时候，我不太清楚安利是做什么的。
Sold stuff in a weird way, not in stores.
以一种奇怪的方式卖东西，而不是在商店里。
Betsy DeVos married the eldest son of Amway's founder, but she's also from an iconic local family.
贝齐·德沃斯嫁给了安利创始人的长子，但她也来自当地一个标志性的家庭。
Her father, Edgar Prince, made his millions in West Michigan as an auto parts manufacturer.
她的父亲埃德加·普林斯（Edgar Prince）在西密歇根州从事汽车零部件制造，赚了数百万美元。
One of his inventions?
他的发明之一？
The light up mirror visor.
发光镜遮阳板。
I finally did reach someone who'd been at the public school Betsy DeVos volunteered at, Burton Elementary.
我终于找到了贝特西·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 志愿就读的伯顿小学 (Burton Elementary) 公立学校的一个人。
I'm Susan Burton, but that's not my family's name on the building, by the way.
我是苏珊·伯顿，但顺便说一句，这不是我在大楼上的家人的名字。
The woman I reached, I'll call her Denise.
我联系到的那个女人，我会叫她丹尼斯。
A lot of teachers were like, she's never been in one of our schools.
很多老师都说，她从来没有在我们学校上过学。
And I said, well, no, she has.
我说，好吧，不，她有。
I've seen her.
我见过她。
What?
什么？
You know, they couldn't believe that she even set foot in a public school, and in a Grand Rapids public school.
你知道，他们不敢相信她竟然踏进了一所公立学校，而且是一所大急流城公立学校。
They could not believe it.
他们简直不敢相信。
Yeah, they were shocked.
是的，他们很震惊。
Denise used to be a teacher at Burton, the Grand Rapids public school where it turns out Betsy DeVos volunteered for five years.
丹尼斯曾经是大急流城公立学校伯顿的一名老师，贝齐·德沃斯在那里做了五年的志愿者。
As far as I can tell, it's the most sustained encounter with a public school that she's ever had, and Betsy DeVos says it affected her deeply.
据我所知，这是她与公立学校经历过的最持久的一次接触，贝齐·德沃斯说这对她影响很深。
She didn't respond to any of the questions or interview requests I sent to the Department of Education, but she did talk briefly about the experience at her confirmation hearing in January.
她没有回复我发送给教育部的任何问题或采访请求，但她在一月份的提名确认听证会上简要谈论了这段经历。
I've worked as an in-school mentor for students in the Grand Rapids Public Schools, and have had the privilege of interacting with students and their families and teachers in ways that have changed my life and my perspective about education forever.
我曾担任大急流城公立学校学生的校内导师，并有幸与学生及其家人和老师互动，这些互动方式永远改变了我的生活和我对教育的看法。
Here's how Betsy DeVos wound up at Burton Elementary back in 2003.
以下是 2003 年贝琪·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 在伯顿小学 (Burton Elementary) 的经历。
She was not a random parent walking in to help out.
她并不是一个随机走进来帮忙的家长。
She was one of the most powerful educational activists in the state, a major Republican donor.
她是该州最有影响力的教育活动家之一，也是共和党的主要捐助者。
Since the early '90s, she'd been advocating for increased choice in Michigan schools.
自 90 年代初以来，她一直主张增加密歇根学校的选择。
In 1993, she helped the governor make Michigan one of the first states in the nation to allow charter schools.
1993年，她帮助州长使密歇根州成为全国首批允许特许学校的州之一。
In 2000, she introduced a ballot measure to get vouchers in the state.
2000年，她推出了一项投票措施，以在该州获得代金券。
At the time, she was the chair of the state Republican Party.
当时，她是州共和党主席。
The governor didn't support her measure, so she quit.
州长不支持她的措施，所以她辞职了。
It was that important to her.
这对她来说太重要了。
She and her husband spent more than $2 million of their own money to promote the measure.
她和她的丈夫花费了超过200万美元的自费来推广这项措施。
The campaign flew people to see voucher schools in Milwaukee on a private Amway jet.
该活动乘坐安利私人飞机带人们参观密尔沃基的代金券学校。
When voters rejected the measure, she spent even more to influence legislators.
当选民拒绝这项措施时，她花费了更多的钱来影响立法者。
She started lobbying groups at the state and national level.
她开始在州和国家层面游说团体。
Her former lobbying director told me that when somebody challenged her about what she was going to do to make local public schools better, she signed up to mentor students.
她的前游说主管告诉我，当有人质疑她将如何改善当地公立学校时，她报名指导学生。
She did this through a group called Kids Hope USA.
她通过一个名为“美国儿童希望”的组织做到了这一点。
It's a national organization that pairs churches with public schools.
这是一个将教堂与公立学校配对的全国性组织。
She was in the first group of mentors from her church.
她是她教会的第一批导师之一。
Sharon Olette was in charge of the Kids Hope USA program at their church for years.
莎朗·奥莱特（Sharon Olette）多年来一直负责他们教堂的“美国儿童希望”项目。
She says they knew the kind of school they wanted to partner with and set out to find it.
她说，他们知道自己想要合作的学校类型，并开始寻找。
I mean, we're a very Caucasian, white America church and didn't have the opportunity to interact with inner city kids and the Hispanic community like we wanted to.
我的意思是，我们是一个非常高加索的美国白人教会，没有机会像我们想要的那样与内城的孩子和西班牙裔社区互动。
And this was such a wonderful avenue for us to do that, to really live out our faith.
对于我们来说，这是一个非常好的途径，可以真正实现我们的信仰。
And one of the pastors at the time just drove around the inner city and looked at the different schools and was kind of praying over all of that situation, what school we should partner with.
当时的一位牧师只是开车绕着市中心转了一圈，看了不同的学校，并为所有这种情况祈祷，我们应该与哪所学校合作。
And he had actually another school in mind, and he happened to go by Burton Elementary, and he said it was just clear to him that God was saying this is the one.
他实际上心里还有另一所学校，他碰巧经过伯顿小学，他说他很清楚上帝说这就是那所学校。
This is the school.
这是学校。
So that's kind of an exciting story.
这是一个令人兴奋的故事。
The volunteer mentors were not teaching religion.
志愿者导师并不是在教授宗教。
They were just there to mentor the kids, every week for one hour.
他们只是在那里指导孩子们，每周一小时。
The kids at Burton are mostly Latino, speak Spanish as a first language, and they're almost all poor.
伯顿学校的孩子大多是拉丁裔，第一语言是西班牙语，而且他们几乎都很穷。
Denise, the former teacher, was proud of the work she did that.
前任教师丹尼斯对她所做的工作感到自豪。
The school had a great principal, and Denise felt like she was part of a dedicated staff, a group giving it's all, trying to help these students with the limited resources they had.
学校有一位伟大的校长，丹尼斯觉得她是一个敬业的教职员工的一员，一个竭尽全力的团队，试图用有限的资源帮助这些学生。
Into that walks Betsy DeVos.
贝特西·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 也走进了这个领域。
And then I still remember the first time I ever saw her walking down the hallway in a really, really just old school.
然后我仍然记得我第一次看到她在一所非常非常古老的学校里走在走廊上的情景。
Burton Elementary's a really old school, and just drinking fountains that didn't work, and the bathrooms that didn't have soap.
伯顿小学是一所非常古老的学校，只是饮水机不起作用，浴室也没有肥皂。
And there she was in her $1,000 suit and her really pretty shoes.
她穿着价值 1,000 美元的西装和非常漂亮的鞋子。
And I just thought how odd she looked.
我只是觉得她看起来多么奇怪。
She just looked so out of place.
她看起来很格格不入。
She had this beautiful like, tan camel hair jacket.
她有一件漂亮的棕褐色骆驼毛夹克。
And just the visual of her walking through and looking at everything.
以及她走过并观察一切的视觉效果。
And I remember the story being told of that her husband would drop her off because she didn't want to park her car in the parking lot.
我记得有一个故事说她丈夫会送她下车，因为她不想把车停在停车场。
Like, were the cars at risk of being broken into?
比如，汽车有被闯入的危险吗？
Was that the idea, that--
是这个想法吗，那个——
I don't know.
我不知道。
I really don't know what was running through her head.
我真不知道她脑子里到底在想什么。
Three other people who worked at Burton in those years told me Betsy DeVos had a driver who'd drop her off.
那些年在伯顿工作的另外三个人告诉我，贝齐·德沃斯有一个司机可以送她下车。
One said he'd park a big black SUV up on the sidewalk near the school's front door and wait there until she came out.
有人说，他会把一辆大型黑色SUV停在学校前门附近的人行道上，等她出来。
Betsy DeVos was assigned to mentor a little girl in third grade.
贝特西·德沃斯被指派辅导一名三年级的小女孩。
She was a girl who needed extra attention in the classroom, and outside school, her housing situation was unstable.
她是一个在课堂上需要额外照顾的女孩，而在校外，她的住房状况也不稳定。
Again, Denise.
再说一遍，丹妮丝。
You know, her living situation was really difficult.
要知道，她的生活条件确实很困难。
Many times, she just came to school hungry.
很多时候，她都是饿着肚子来到学校的。
She came to school tired.
她来到学校很累。
It was a sad situation.
这是一个悲伤的情况。
Denise says when Betsy DeVos came to school, with the teachers, she was cordial, but not overly friendly.
丹尼斯说，当贝琪·德沃斯来到学校时，她和老师们在一起很亲切，但又不过分友好。
Denise was wary of her.
丹妮丝对她很警惕。
But I talked to a counselor at the school, a social worker I'll call Megan who knew the little girl, and interacted with her, and who appreciated what Betsy DeVos was trying to do.
但我和学校的一位辅导员谈过，她是一位社会工作者，我称之为梅根，她认识这个小女孩，并与她互动，她很欣赏贝齐·德沃斯所做的事情。
I thought it was great that she was taking an interest in our lower income school.
我认为她对我们低收入学校感兴趣真是太好了。
So I remember the student telling me, Miss Betsy was here this week, and just feeling special because another adult took interest in her.
所以我记得那个学生告诉我，贝特西小姐这周在这里，并且感觉很特别，因为另一个成年人对她感兴趣。
The little girl would talk to Megan about the mentoring.
小女孩会和梅根谈论指导的事情。
The attention pleased her, made her proud.
这种关注让她感到高兴，让她感到自豪。
And then one day, the little girl had some other news to share about Betsy DeVos.
然后有一天，小女孩还分享了一些关于贝琪·德沃斯的消息。
The student told me that she purchased a car for her mom.
这位学生告诉我，她给她妈妈买了一辆车。
Her mom was having a hard time getting to her employer.
她妈妈很难找到她的雇主。
And so to keep that momentum going with her employment, I know she purchased a car and did other things for the family beyond the school.
因此，为了保持这种就业势头，我知道她购买了一辆汽车，并在学校之外为家庭做了其他事情。
Four different people at the school told me about the car.
学校里的四个不同的人向我介绍了这辆车。
One said it came up at a staff meeting.
一位人士表示，这是在一次员工会议上提出的。
Teachers thought it was great news for the family, but they also struggled with what to make of this kind of generosity, and whether buying the mother a car was setting her up for failure or success.
老师们认为这对这个家庭来说是个好消息，但他们也纠结于如何利用这种慷慨，以及给母亲买一辆车是否会让她走向失败或成功。
Sharon, the church coordinator, heard about the car and understood the impulse.
教会协调员莎伦听说了这辆车并理解了这种冲动。
We all come to care for our mentees and do things to help the family in need, bringing them Thanksgiving dinner or something like that.
我们都来照顾我们的学员，并做一些事情来帮助有需要的家庭，给他们带来感恩节晚餐或类似的东西。
Sharon remembered that one mentor, her husband was a dentist, and he fixed a mother's badly decayed teeth for free.
莎伦记得有一位导师，她的丈夫是一名牙医，他免费修复了一位母亲严重腐烂的牙齿。
This kind of stuff wasn't part of the Kids Hope USA mission.
这种事情不是“美国儿童希望”使命的一部分。
Sharon describes it as above and beyond the scope of the program.
莎伦将其描述为上述内容，超出了该计划的范围。
But lots of mentors developed relationships with students and families.
但许多导师与学生和家庭建立了关系。
Lots of them wanted to do more.
他们中的许多人想做更多。
Betsy DeVos just happens to be a billionaire, and her more is different.
贝特西·德沃斯恰好是一位亿万富翁，但她更多的是不同的。
And then Betsy DeVos gave the student another gift, one that shows her generosity and also reveals a lot about her beliefs and assumptions when it comes to educating children.
然后贝齐·德沃斯送给了这位学生另一份礼物，这份礼物显示了她的慷慨，也揭示了她在教育孩子方面的很多信念和假设。
Burton is a K-5 program, so when the student got to be at sixth grade, she put her and paid for a private school, for her to go into a private school.
伯顿是一个K-5项目，所以当这个学生到了六年级的时候，她就把她送进了一所私立学校，并支付了费用，让她进入一所私立学校。
I couldn't confirm this directly with Betsy DeVos, but five people at Burton and a close friend of Betsy DeVos's said they heard this.
我无法直接与贝齐·德沃斯确认这一点，但伯顿的五个人以及贝齐·德沃斯的一位密友说他们听到了这一消息。
The way school funding works, when a child leaves a school, the school loses the funding for that child.
根据学校资助的运作方式，当孩子离开学校时，学校就会失去该孩子的资助。
School choice advocates say this encourages competition and innovation.
择校倡导者表示，这鼓励竞争和创新。
Schools have to compete to attract children and the dollars that go with them.
学校必须通过竞争来吸引孩子以及随之而来的金钱。
It's the free market applied to education.
这是应用于教育的自由市场。
What makes this complicated is that this money pays not just for that individual child, but for salaries, and programs, and infrastructure, for all the costs of keeping the school open.
让事情变得复杂的是，这笔钱不仅支付单个孩子的费用，还支付工资、项目和基础设施，以及维持学校开放的所有费用。
Losing that money has ripple effects.
失去这笔钱会产生连锁反应。
And at Burton Elementary, when teachers saw one of the state's most powerful education activists, someone widely seen as anti-public school, pull a child out of the public school system, it did not go over very well with everyone.
在伯顿小学，当老师们看到该州最有权势的教育活动家之一（被广泛视为反公立学校的人）将一个孩子从公立学校系统中拉出来时，每个人的反应都不太好。
Again, here's Denise, the teacher.
又是丹尼斯老师。
It's super insulting.
真是超级侮辱人啊
It's very insulting.
这是非常侮辱人的。
Like, what you do-- all the hard work that you put in-- is not good enough for me, or for people I know, or for people in general.
就像，你所做的——你付出的所有努力——对我、我认识的人或一般人来说还不够好。
It's just not good enough.
只是还不够好。
And I find it rather ironic that she would tutor a student and then take her out of the school that she was working in.
我觉得很讽刺的是，她辅导一个学生，然后把她带出她工作的学校。
I thought she wanted to make the school better.
我以为她想让学校变得更好。
She could have used her power way differently.
她本可以以不同的方式使用她的力量。
Instead of helping fix the school, Betsy DeVos paid to place the child elsewhere.
贝特西·德沃斯没有帮助修复学校，而是花钱将孩子安置在其他地方。
That was her solution.
这就是她的解决方案。
It was like vouchers for one.
这就像一张优惠券。
Megan, the school social worker, says there are lots of things Betsy DeVos could have done.
学校社会工作者梅根表示，贝齐·德沃斯本可以做很多事情。
So, I mean, there were so many great things going on at Burton Elementary.
所以，我的意思是，伯顿小学发生了很多伟大的事情。
I mean, there really were.
我的意思是，确实有。
We had ESL classes for the parents.
我们为家长开设了 ESL 课程。
We had a parent leadership group that would meet once a month and hear kind of what's going on in the community.
我们有一个家长领导小组，每月举行一次会议，了解社区中正在发生的事情。
And so I really feel like, even talking to the building leadership about trends, or what's keeping our students from reaching those academic milestones that we need them to, and really tapping into the pulse of the school and the community, I feel like there could have been a lot more there.
所以我真的觉得，即使是与大楼领导谈论趋势，或者是什么阻止我们的学生达到我们需要他们达到的学术里程碑，并真正抓住学校和社区的脉搏，我觉得那里可能还有更多。
Does this story of what happened at Burton connect to any of the concerns you have about her appointment as Education Secretary?
伯顿发生的这个故事是否与您对她被任命为教育部长的担忧有关？
Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of illustrates that while she may have supported individual children or causes that were in line with her values, I don't think overall she saw the big picture.
是的，我的意思是，我认为这说明虽然她可能支持个别孩子或符合她价值观的事业，但我认为总体而言她没有看到大局。
So while I see there was some great generous acts, it wasn't directly supporting the school building or district.
因此，虽然我看到有一些伟大的慷慨行为，但它并没有直接支持学校建筑或学区。
Helping individual children, but not supporting the school district as a whole.
帮助个别儿童，但不支持整个学区。
This is consistent with what Elizabeth Welch, the public school advocate in Grand Rapids, has observed of Betsy DeVos's policy agenda in Michigan.
这与大急流城公立学校倡导者伊丽莎白·韦尔奇（Elizabeth Welch）对密歇根州贝齐·德沃斯（Betsy DeVos）政策议程的观察是一致的。
I actually am probably not as cynical as some, in that I believe she probably really does believe the agenda is going to help kids.
事实上，我可能不像某些人那样愤世嫉俗，因为我相信她可能真的相信议程会帮助孩子们。
The problem is, as someone for 20 years who has been living here and watching the agenda be implemented, I see it as more about helping that one person.
问题是，作为一个在这里生活了 20 年并见证议程实施的人，我认为这更多的是为了帮助那个人。
Take the West Michigan Aviation Academy, which is a charter school founded by the DeVoses.
以西密歇根航空学院为例，这是德沃斯家族创办的一所特许学校。
They've given more than $4 million to it.
他们为此投入了超过 400 万美元。
It's out at the airport, and kids learn how to fly planes, go up in the sky in little Cessnas.
在机场，孩子们学习如何驾驶飞机，驾驶小塞斯纳斯飞向天空。
Wonderful school.
很棒的学校。
I have friends who send their children there.
我有朋友送孩子去那里。
Aviation's your background, your kid's kind of a science kid, maybe your kid doesn't fit in well in the structure of traditional public school.
你的背景是航空，你的孩子是一个科学孩子，也许你的孩子不太适合传统公立学校的结构。
It's a great school.
这是一所很棒的学校。
However, it's not scalable.
但是，它不可扩展。
It's a great option for those families and those kids, and I don't deny that.
对于那些家庭和孩子来说，这是一个很好的选择，我不否认这一点。
But again, I'm looking at the bigger issue of if we create these little microcosms, and then eventually bring vouchers with it, we are still going to be crumbling our infrastructure, which still is going to serve the vast majority of children, because frankly, there's not enough little schools like that to serve the kids.
但我再次考虑到一个更大的问题，如果我们创造这些小微观世界，然后最终带来代金券，我们仍然会破坏我们的基础设施，而这些基础设施仍然会为绝大多数儿童服务，因为坦率地说，没有足够的这样的小学校来为孩子们服务。
The vast majority of children, 85%, that's how many in this country attend traditional public schools.
绝大多数儿童（85%）就读于传统公立学校。
We will help some kids, but I don't believe we're going to help most kids.
我们会帮助一些孩子，但我不相信我们会帮助大多数孩子。
I believe it will actually harm them in the long run.
我相信从长远来看这实际上会对他们造成伤害。
For almost the past 20 years, Betsy DeVos and her husband Dick, maybe more than anyone, have shaped education in Michigan by advocating for policies that increase choice.
近 20 年来，贝特西·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 和她的丈夫迪克 (Dick) 通过倡导增加选择的政策，对密歇根州的教育做出了更大的贡献。
The results?
结果？
Both traditional public schools and charter schools are doing worse academically.
传统公立学校和特许学校的学业成绩都较差。
To give one example, in 2003, Michigan fourth graders ranked 28th in the country in reading.
举个例子，2003年，密歇根州四年级学生的阅读能力在全国排名第28位。
A decade later, they've fallen to 41st.
十年后，他们跌至第 41 位。
For all the promises about charter school performance, three quarters of all Michigan charter schools are in the bottom half of all schools as measured by standardized tests.
尽管对特许学校的表现做出了种种承诺，但根据标准化考试的衡量，密歇根州所有特许学校中四分之三的成绩都处于后半部分。
Public school funding, the money actually available for schools to use, has declined.
公立学校经费，即学校实际可用的资金，已经减少。
Segregation has increased.
隔离现象有所增加。
Under Michigan choice policies, white students transfer to districts or charters that are more white, black students go to charters that are more black.
根据密歇根州的选择政策，白人学生转学到白人较多的学区或特许学校，黑人学生转学到黑人较多的特许学校。
Meanwhile, a staggering number of Michigan charters are for profit, 80% according to researchers at Western Michigan University.
与此同时，根据西密歇根大学研究人员的数据，密歇根州的特许经营数量惊人，其中 80% 是为了盈利。
Way more than any other state.
比任何其他州都多得多。
I have read that 80% of charter schools in Michigan are run by for-profit entities, and most of them perform below the state average.
我读到，密歇根州 80% 的特许学校都是由营利性实体运营的，其中大多数的成绩低于州平均水平。
At Betsy DeVos's confirmation hearing in January, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse asked her to respond to concerns about her record in Michigan.
在贝齐·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 一月份的确认听证会上，参议员谢尔登·怀特豪斯 (Sheldon Whitehouse) 请她回应对她在密歇根州记录的担忧。
I will be an advocate for all great schools, no matter their form, their version.
我将成为所有优秀学校的倡导者，无论其形式、版本如何。
I will be an advocate for parents being able to make those choices because they're the primary educator for their children.
我将倡导父母能够做出这些选择，因为他们是孩子的主要教育者。
I get that.
我明白了。
But the question is, do you understand that when the parent makes that choice, and the child moves to the charter school, and the funding moves with the child, that leaves a funding gap at the previous school that it can't instantaneously or magically fill, that that is a real problem that [INAUDIBLE] respect--
但问题是，你是否明白，当家长做出这样的选择，孩子转到特许学校，资金随孩子转移时，这会在之前的学校留下资金缺口，无法立即或神奇地填补，这是一个[听不清]尊重的真正问题——
Indeed.
确实如此。
And I mean, I think this is a good example of an issue that is best addressed at the state level.
我的意思是，我认为这是最好在州一级解决问题的一个很好的例子。
Again, I will--
再说一遍，我会——
They went back and forth but this was as much of an answer as she gave.
他们来来回回，但这就是她给出的答案。
But what public education advocates criticize Betsy DeVos for-- focusing more on the individual than the whole public school system-- DeVos welcomes that criticism.
但公共教育倡导者批评贝齐·德沃斯的原因——更多地关注个人而不是整个公立学校系统——德沃斯欢迎这种批评。
It's not a criticism to her.
这不是对她的批评。
She says that's exactly what she's trying to do.
她说这正是她正在努力做的事情。
This isn't about school systems.
这与学校系统无关。
This is about individual students, parents, and families.
这是关于学生个人、家长和家庭的。
Betsy DeVos, speaking in July at the ALEC Conference.
贝齐·狄维士 (Betsy DeVos) 于 7 月在 ALEC 会议上发表讲话。
ALEC is a national group for conservatives who want to privatize all kinds of government services, including schools.
ALEC 是一个由保守派组成的全国性团体，他们希望将包括学校在内的各种政府服务私有化。
Betsy DeVos is standing behind a lectern in a bright pink skirt suit.
贝琪·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 身穿亮粉色套装站在讲台后面。
Just the other week, the American Federation for Teachers tweeted at me.
就在前一周，美国教师联合会在推特上对我发了一条推文。
Can you please put it up on the screen?
可以请你把它放到屏幕上吗？
The tweet reads, quote, "Betsy DeVos says public dollars should invest in individual students.
推文写道：“贝齐·德沃斯说公共资金应该投资于个别学生。
No. We should invest in a system of great public schools for all kids."
不。我们应该投资建立一个适合所有孩子的优秀公立学校系统。”
I couldn't believe it when I read it, but you have to admire their candor.
当我读到它时我简直不敢相信，但你不得不佩服他们的坦诚。
They've made it clear that they care more about a system, one that was created in the 1800s, than they care about individual students.
他们明确表示，他们更关心一个 1800 年代创建的系统，而不是个别学生。
They are saying education is not an investment in individual students, and they are totally wrong.
他们说教育不是对个别学生的投资，这是完全错误的。
[APPLAUSE] Susan Burton This isn't just semantics.
[掌声]Susan Burton 这不仅仅是语义学。
This is right at the heart of Betsy DeVos's argument.
这正是贝特西·德沃斯论点的核心。
The way to improve education is to focus on each individual child.
改善教育的方法是关注每个孩子。
She and her backers say the system is broken.
她和她的支持者说这个系统已经崩溃了。
We've tried to fix it for years, and it hasn't worked.
多年来我们一直试图修复它，但没有成功。
The most vulnerable kids are trapped in the worst schools.
最脆弱的孩子被困在最差的学校里。
We have got to address this.
我们必须解决这个问题。
We need to try something new.
我们需要尝试一些新的东西。
One of the reasons Betsy DeVos might believe in focusing on the individual student is that she's seen it work herself with some of the students she's helped.
贝特西·德沃斯（Betsy DeVos）可能相信关注个别学生的原因之一是，她发现这种方法对她帮助过的一些学生有效。
Take a moment and picture a child whom you have helped get a great education.
花点时间想象一下你帮助过的一个孩子接受了良好的教育。
For me, I picture Angie, a young girl I've mentored since the first grade who is now entering her senior year in high school.
对我来说，我想象的是安吉，一个我从一年级起就开始辅导的小女孩，她现在正在进入高中四年级。
Angie is the second student Betsy DeVos mentored at Burton Elementary.
安吉是贝齐·狄维士在伯顿小学指导的第二位学生。
I visited her during summer vacation at her house in Grand Rapids.
暑假期间我去她位于大急流城的家拜访了她。
She'd just gotten home from work, and she was wearing bleached jeans, her hair in a bun.
她刚下班回家，穿着漂白牛仔裤，头发盘成发髻。
She remembers being pulled out of her classroom in first grade and told, you're going to have a mentor.
她记得一年级时被带出教室并被告知，你将有一位导师。
She was shy around Betsy DeVos.
她在贝特西·德沃斯面前很害羞。
I was shy.
我很害羞。
Like, she would have to like ask me over and over again to get things out.
就像，她必须一遍又一遍地问我才能把事情说清楚。
And even to this day, I still get kind of shy when I'm around her and talking to her.
即使直到今天，当我在她身边并与她交谈时，我仍然感到有点害羞。
Like, I know I can talk to her about anything, and I know I can trust her for anything, but I still get shy.
就像，我知道我可以和她谈论任何事情，我知道我可以相信她的任何事情，但我仍然感到害羞。
Betsy DeVos became close to Angie and her family right away.
贝特西·德沃斯很快就与安吉和她的家人变得很亲近。
On Christmas, she came over with presents.
圣诞节那天，她带着礼物过来了。
She did stuff with them on weekends.
她周末和他们一起做事。
First memory, the earliest memory I have a way of that, of doing something like that, is when she took me, my mom, and my oldest sister to a bookstore.
第一次记忆，最早的记忆，我有这样的方式，做类似的事情，是当她带我、我的妈妈和我的大姐姐去一家书店时。
And she helped my mom get a book so that she can learn English.
她帮我妈妈买了一本书，这样她就可以学习英语。
She let me get-- I don't even know what books I got.
她让我得到——我什至不知道我得到了什么书。
But she let me and my sisters get books.
但她让我和我的姐妹们去买书。
So after that, she would really ask about my mom.
所以在那之后，她真的会问起我妈妈的事情。
And then if I ever told her anything, that she would help out my mom, and my mom just really like, looked up to her.
然后，如果我告诉她任何事情，她会帮助我妈妈，而我妈妈真的很喜欢，尊敬她。
Angie's mother grew up in the Dominican Republic and speaks mostly Spanish.
安吉的母亲在多米尼加共和国长大，主要讲西班牙语。
Back then, she was working factory jobs.
那时，她在工厂工作。
She was always on the night shift, keeping her away from Angie and her sister.
她总是上夜班，使她远离安吉和她的妹妹。
She has a chronic illness, and when it flared up, she'd missed work.
她患有慢性病，当病情发作时，她就错过了工作。
She kept getting fired, so the DeVoses hired her.
她不断被解雇，所以德沃斯家族雇用了她。
Well, she's like the laundry person at all their houses.
嗯，她就像他们所有房子里的洗衣工。
She's the one that does laundry for them, and that's it.
她是为他们洗衣服的人，仅此而已。
Basically, she's been doing that ever since.
基本上，从那时起她就一直这样做。
Betsy DeVos's impulse was not to keep Angie and her family at a distance, an hour a week, meet the program requirements, do the minimum.
贝特西·德沃斯的冲动是不要让安吉和她的家人保持距离，每周一个小时，满足计划要求，做最少的事情。
Her impulse was to invite them into her life.
她的冲动是邀请他们进入她的生活。
John Booy is a close friend of Betsy DeVos, one of a handful of people she brought to her confirmation hearing.
约翰·布伊 (John Booy) 是贝齐·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 的密友，贝齐·德沃斯 (Betsy DeVos) 是她带去参加确认听证会的少数人之一。
He runs the Potter's House, a private Christian school in Grand Rapids that enrolls a lot of low income kids.
他经营着波特之家，这是一所位于大急流城的私立基督教学校，招收了很多低收入的孩子。
Over the years, Betsy DeVos has mentored students there, and John's seen her help out several families.
多年来，贝特西·德沃斯一直在那里指导学生，约翰也看到她帮助了几个家庭。
Betsy would also involve herself in whatever other ways that they could partner with the family.
贝特西也会以任何其他可以与家人合作的方式参与其中。
Now, they don't believe in the kind of helping that hurts, or the kind of helping that keeps somebody just dependent on you.
现在，他们不相信那种会造成伤害的帮助，也不相信那种让别人依赖你的帮助。
They're very much about work and responsibility.
他们非常注重工作和责任。
But it's done in a way that's not patronizing.
但它是以一种不居高临下的方式完成的。
It doesn't take your dignity away.
它不会剥夺你的尊严。
It's just walking alongside, and how can, you know, together strategize to meet your goals?
只是并肩而行，你知道，如何共同制定策略来实现你的目标呢？
After two years, Betsy DeVos suggested to Angie's mother that Angie transfer out of Burton to the private Christian school that John Booy runs.
两年后，贝琪·德沃斯向安吉的母亲建议安吉从伯顿转学到约翰·布伊经营的私立基督教学校。
At first Angie was not on board with the idea.
起初安吉并不同意这个想法。
She didn't want to leave her friends and the school she knew.
她不想离开她的朋友和她认识的学校。
Oh, I cried.
哦，我哭了。
I remember it was the last day of my second grade, and I had just came home, and they said that I wasn't going back, and I cried.
我记得那是我二年级的最后一天，我刚回家，他们说我不回去了，我哭了。
Like, I did not want to switch schools.
就像，我不想转学。
But when she got to Potter's House, she understood why her mother and Betsy DeVos had wanted her to go there.
但当她到达波特之家时，她明白了为什么她的母亲和贝琪·德沃斯希望她去那里。
Angie loved reading, and with more attention, she progressed faster.
安吉喜欢读书，注意力越多，她进步就越快。
The work was more challenging.
这项工作更具挑战性。
You had to want to do well.
你必须想做得好。
Betsy DeVos continued to mentor Angie.
贝特西·德沃斯继续指导安吉。
When she got to middle school, sometimes Betsy DeVos would take her out at lunchtime.
当她上中学时，有时贝齐·德沃斯会在午餐时间带她出去。
A few times, we went to Biggby's downtown to get hot chocolate.
有几次，我们去比格比市中心买热巧克力。
So that was fun.
所以这很有趣。
It was nice.
很好。
She always has nice cars.
她总是有好车。
That was just like-- I was always like amazed, because it was always a different car, or sometimes even a driver.
这就像——我总是很惊讶，因为它总是一辆不同的车，有时甚至是一个司机。
As Angie got older, Betsy DeVos helped her choose a high school to go to, suggested tours of three different schools.
随着安吉年龄的增长，贝特西·德沃斯帮助她选择一所高中，并建议她参观三所不同的学校。
None are traditional public schools.
没有一所学校是传统的公立学校。
She ended up at a private Christian high school, which she loves.
她最终进入了她喜欢的私立基督教高中。
Betsy DeVos pays part of her tuition and her mother pays the other part.
贝齐·德沃斯支付部分学费，她母亲支付另一部分。
This summer, Angie's working with her mother for the DeVos family.
今年夏天，安吉和她的母亲一起为德沃斯家族工作。
Oh, I'm cleaning.
哦，我在打扫卫生。
[LAUGHS] Yeah, that's all I do every summer since eighth grade.
[笑]是的，从八年级开始，这就是我每年夏天所做的一切。
Clean.
干净的。
She likes working, making her own money.
她喜欢工作，自己赚钱。
She vacuums, mops, smaller stuff too.
她还吸尘、拖地以及一些小东西。
We're house detailers.
我们是房屋细节设计师。
We make sure everything looks nice and good, and there's no dust anywhere, that the beds are like, fixed up pretty, that the bathrooms, everything like that.
我们确保一切看起来都很好，任何地方都没有灰尘，床是这样的，布置得很漂亮，浴室，一切都是这样的。
Anything you do in a house, that's what we do.
您在家里做的任何事情，都是我们做的。
One of the other kids the DeVos's mentored works with them.
德沃斯指导的另一名孩子与他们一起工作。
He lives in the neighborhood, and they give him rides home.
他住在附近，他们开车送他回家。
They're down at the family's summer compound in Holland most days, a lake shore estate with a mansion filled with delicate objects.
他们大部分时间都呆在荷兰一家人的避暑别墅里，这是一座湖滨庄园，里面有一座装满精致物品的豪宅。
Everything has to be a certain way in a certain position.
一切都必须在特定的位置以特定的方式进行。
So we take pictures of everything, so that if we ever have to move something, we know exactly how it goes, like exactly how it goes.
所以我们拍下所有东西的照片，这样，如果我们需要移动某些东西，我们就能确切地知道它是如何移动的，就像它到底是如何移动的一样。
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
Wanda, Angie's mother, is out on the porch, giving Angie privacy while also remaining near.
安吉的母亲旺达站在门廊上，既给安吉留下了隐私，又让她待在附近。
She comes inside to talk.
她进来说话。
How would your life and Angie's life be different if you hadn't met Betsy?
如果你没有遇到贝特西，你的生活和安吉的生活会有什么不同？
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Wanda [SPEAKING SPANISH]
[说西班牙语] 万达 [说西班牙语]
Basically, it's like, a very private, kind of very sentimental thing.
基本上，这就像是一件非常私人、非常感伤的事情。
But she feels like Miss Betsy is someone who after God, she feels like God actually put her in our lives at the perfect moment, because she just came in when things were just very wrong and very bad for our lives.
但她觉得贝特西小姐是一个追随上帝的人，她觉得上帝实际上在完美的时刻把她放在了我们的生活中，因为她只是在事情非常错误并且对我们的生活非常糟糕的时候进来的。
[SPEAKING SPANISH] Susan Burton As Wanda says this, she cups a hand over her heart.
[说西班牙语] 苏珊·伯顿 当万达说这句话时，她用一只手捂住了心口。
But she's very grateful for Miss Betsy and everything she's done, because she's somebody who, without even asking for anything in return, gave my mom a hand and has just been there to help us with whatever it is that we need every step of the way.
但她非常感谢贝特西小姐和她所做的一切，因为她不求任何回报，就向我妈妈伸出了援助之手，并在我们需要的每一步中帮助我们。
Angie doesn't totally follow the news, doesn't totally trust it.
安吉并不完全关注新闻，也不完全相信它。
But for while, she was seeing things online about Betsy DeVos that upset her.
但有一段时间，她在网上看到有关贝琪·德沃斯的事情让她感到不安。
It would just make me feel like, really, like, bad in a way.
这只会让我感觉，真的，在某种程度上，很糟糕。
Because it's not how things actually are.
因为事实并非如此。
I know the actual truth.
我知道真实的真相。
Like, I have a really close relationship with her, so I know how things actually are.
就像，我和她的关系非常亲密，所以我知道事情的实际情况。
And it's just-- it's whatever.
就是——不管怎样。
I mean, everybody's gonna think what they want to think.
我的意思是，每个人都会想他们想怎么想。
Angie's quick to say that Betsy DeVos is good for this job, because she's passionate about education and helping kids, all kids, and making it easier for kids to choose.
安吉很快就说贝齐·德沃斯很适合这份工作，因为她热衷于教育和帮助孩子，所有的孩子，让孩子们更容易做出选择。
But when I ask her what Betsy DeVos should do in this job, she doesn't pretend to have studied up on policy.
但当我问她贝齐·德沃斯应该在这份工作中做什么时，她并没有假装已经研究过政策。
Then a moment later, she suggests something.
过了一会儿，她提出了一些建议。
OK.
好的。
Something I think she should hopefully at least like look into is making public schools better.
我认为她至少应该研究一下让公立学校变得更好。
Because public schools, they're not bad.
因为公立学校，它们还不错。
But like, there's just some public schools that just like, the teachers don't really care to help our students and stuff like that, and they just want to give the students an A.
但是，有些公立学校的老师并不真正关心帮助我们的学生之类的，他们只想给学生一个 A。
So I feel like if she would look more into public schools, and just making them better for any kind of student no matter where, then that would be a good thing.
所以我觉得如果她能更多地关注公立学校，并让它们为任何类型的学生提供更好的服务，无论在哪里，那将是一件好事。
Of course, that's basically the job description of the Secretary of Education, to oversee the country's public schools and make them better for any kind of student.
当然，这基本上就是教育部长的职责描述，即监督国家的公立学校并让它们为任何类型的学生提供更好的服务。
And what's so different about Betsy DeVos is that she doesn't care whether schools are public or not.
贝特西·德沃斯的与众不同之处在于，她并不关心学校是否是公立的。
It doesn't matter what word comes before school, she likes to say-- public, private, charter, home, virtual, magnet, parochial.
她喜欢说，学校之前出现的任何词并不重要——公立、私立、特许、家庭、虚拟、磁铁、教区。
That's a radically different way to see this job.
这是一种完全不同的看待这份工作的方式。
But seeing what she did in Michigan, not a huge surprise.
但看到她在密歇根州所做的一切，并不令人感到意外。
Susan Burton, who's one of the producers of our program.
苏珊·伯顿，我们节目的制作人之一。
Coming up, rumors about cartoon characters coming alive in real life.
关于卡通人物在现实生活中复活的传言即将出现。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, Private Geography, stories of the places that we're from and how those places make us.
今天的节目《私人地理》，讲述我们来自的地方以及这些地方如何造就我们的故事。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program, Act Two, Kids in the Hall.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕，第二幕，大厅里的孩子们。
And by hall in this case, I mean the Kingdom Hall.
在这种情况下，我所说的大厅是指王国聚会所。
Your cultural identity, somebody once said, is not a suitcase you can lose at the airport.
有人曾经说过，你的文化身份不是一个可以在机场丢失的手提箱。
And that's true even if you're trying to lose it.
即使你试图失去它，这也是事实。
One of our producers, Neil Drumming, discovered that truth recently, when he read an email that somebody sent to the radio show.
我们的制作人尼尔·德鲁明（Neil Drumming）最近在读到某人发送给广播节目的一封电子邮件时发现了这个事实。
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness until the age of 17, when I left the faith of my own volition.
我从小就以耶和华见证人的身份长大，直到 17 岁，我才自愿离开了信仰。
There are roughly 1 million Jehovah's Witnesses spread across the United States, few enough that every time I come across a former one, an ex-JW, I can't help but feel like it's an opportunity to share some rare communal experience.
大约有 100 万耶和华见证人遍布美国，但人数太少，每次我遇到前耶和华见证人，即前耶和华见证人，我都会情不自禁地觉得这是一个分享一些罕见的共同经历的机会。
Like, what happened to you, or what made you leave?
比如，你发生了什么事，或者是什么让你离开？
That's why when I read the email that Will McMillian sent to This American Life, I immediately wanted to talk to him, though his experience was different from mine, in that he was once a Witness and also gay.
这就是为什么当我读到威尔·麦克米利安发给《美国生活》的电子邮件时，我立即想和他谈谈，尽管他的经历与我不同，因为他曾经是见证人，而且也是同性恋。
Do you remember what the Jehovah's Witness Bible says about homosexuality?
你还记得耶和华见证人圣经中关于同性恋的说法吗？
Like from the Scriptures?
就像圣经里的那样吗？
Neil Drumming Yeah.
尼尔打鼓 是的。
I remember there's a-- I apologize for not being more-- like, a better memory on this, but I actually gave a talk about homosexuality once.
我记得有一个——我很抱歉没有对此有更好的记忆，但我实际上曾经做过一次关于同性恋的演讲。
That's Will.
那是威尔。
And when he says he gave a talk, he's referring to these speeches Jehovah's Witnesses are required to regularly give each other based on Scripture during services at the Kingdom Hall, which is what they call their house of worship.
当他说他发表演讲时，他指的是耶和华见证人必须在王国聚会所（他们称之为礼拜堂）的服务期间定期根据圣经互相发表演讲。
In his email to the show, Will said that he'd been a practicing witness since he was a teenager.
威尔在给节目的电子邮件中说，他从十几岁起就一直是一名证人。
He's 37 now.
他现在37岁了。
He also wrote that since he was about 10, he knew he was gay.
他还写道，从他大约 10 岁起，他就知道自己是同性恋。
He kept that fact a secret for 20 years because Jehovah's Witnesses believe that sometime in the near future, when Jehovah God cleanses the earth and remakes it into the paradise that it once was, those who have not faithfully obeyed his word will be destroyed.
他将这个事实保守了20年，因为耶和华见证人相信，在不久的将来，当耶和华上帝洁净地球并将其重建为曾经的乐园时，那些不忠实遵守他话语的人将会被毁灭。
And there's a scripture that talks about some of you were thieves, some of you were murderers, some of you were tax evaders, and some of you were men who lied with men.
有一节经文谈到，你们中有些人是小偷，有些人是杀人犯，有些人是逃税者，有些人是与人说谎的人。
Kind of this laundry list of, these are sins that will get you killed.
有点像这样的清单，这些都是会让你被杀的罪孽。
OK.
好的。
You know where this is going.
你知道这是怎么回事。
In his early 30's, Will's homosexuality was uncovered, and he was kicked out of the religion.
30 岁出头时，威尔的同性恋身份被揭露，他被逐出宗教。
Witnesses call it being disfellowshipped.
目击者称之为被开除。
Will wrote in his email to us that at the time he got the boot, he felt like his life had come to an end.
威尔在给我们的电子邮件中写道，当他被解雇时，他感觉自己的生命已经走到了尽头。
But as he and I emailed back and forth, the thing that really struck me about him was how torn he still seemed to be.
但当我和他来回发电子邮件时，他真正让我印象深刻的是他看起来仍然很痛苦。
Here he was, finally happily living as a gay man a half dozen years later.
六年后，他终于作为一名同性恋者幸福地生活了。
And yet even now, Will doesn't smoke, he doesn't do drugs, he won't accept a blood transfusion, all things that Jehovah's Witnesses say the Bible forbids.
但即使是现在，威尔也不抽烟、不吸毒、不接受输血，这些都是耶和华见证人圣经所禁止的。
He's still clinging to the dictates of a religion that forced him to deny his identity for two decades.
他仍然坚持宗教的要求，这迫使他在二十年里否认自己的身份。
"My spiritual beliefs remained the same after I was disfellowshipped and after I came out," he wrote.
“在我被开除和出来之后，我的精神信仰仍然保持不变，”他写道。
"You want to accept yourself for who you are while at the same time condemning yourself for it." Will wrote that when he's around other openly gay men, he feels like he has to hide his spiritual beliefs from them, like some sort of closeted disciple.
“你想要接受自己本来的样子，同时又因此谴责自己。”威尔写道，当他和其他公开同性恋的男人在一起时，他觉得自己必须向他们隐藏自己的精神信仰，就像某种未出柜的门徒一样。
And when he sees great tragedy in the world, like an earthquake, a school shooting, or a hate-filled attack on an Orlando nightclub, his mind goes immediately to prophecy that was drilled into him from an early age.
当他看到世界上发生巨大的悲剧时，比如地震、学校枪击事件，或者奥兰多夜总会充满仇恨的袭击，他的脑海里立即浮现出从小就被灌输给他的预言。
Quote, "I am seeing the signs.
引用：“我看到了迹象。
I need to be close to Jehovah.
我需要亲近耶和华。
I need to stop being a pawn of Satan with my debauched life.
我需要停止以放荡的生活成为撒旦的棋子。
I need to save myself from eternal destruction." All the stuff he used to believe.
我需要将自己从永恒的毁灭中拯救出来。”所有他曾经相信的东西。
I really believed it.
我真的相信了。
I really believed what I was being taught, or what I was trying to teach other people.
我真的相信我所学到的东西，或者我试图教给别人的东西。
I really did believe that we're in the last days of this system of things, and I can watch and see rainforests get destroyed, or I can see politicians come in to office and do terrible things to people and think, it's OK, because Jehovah will take care of it, and all these things that are going wrong are only temporary.
我真的相信我们正处于这个事物制度的最后几天，我可以看到热带雨林被毁，或者我可以看到政客上台对人们做可怕的事情，然后我想，没关系，因为耶和华会处理这一切，所有这些问题都只是暂时的。
The last days, this system of things, Satan and his demons.
末世，这个事物制度，撒旦和他的恶魔。
It was both freaky and familiar to hear Will using all this ominous terminology I'd grown up with, but almost completely forgotten.
听到威尔使用这些我从小到大听过但几乎完全忘记的不祥术语，既奇怪又熟悉。
When I read his emails, I knew that I wanted to talk to Will, but I wasn't exactly sure why until it happened.
当我读到他的电子邮件时，我知道我想和威尔谈谈，但直到事情发生之前我才完全确定为什么。
It just felt familiar.
只是感觉很熟悉。
I wanted to revisit that.
我想重温一下。
When you're a witness-- and maybe you'll remember this-- when you're told that anything supernatural is demonic, you kind of shut those things down.
当你是目击者时——也许你会记得这一点——当你被告知任何超自然的东西都是恶魔时，你就会把这些东西关闭。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Will Mcmillian At least I did.
威尔·麦克米利安 至少我做到了。
I shut those things down.
我把那些东西关掉了。
Yeah.
是的。
And I really loved fantasy novels.
我真的很喜欢奇幻小说。
And I felt that I couldn't read them.
我觉得我无法阅读它们。
Yeah, right?
是啊，对吧？
Neil Drumming Like, I felt like I shouldn't be reading them.
Neil Drumming 就像，我觉得我不应该读它们。
Exactly.
确切地。
Yeah, and I loved science fiction, and there was a period of time where I was writing a lot of science fiction, and I was like, kind of doing it secretively.
是的，我喜欢科幻小说，有一段时间我写了很多科幻小说，我就像是秘密地写。
Yeah, you know, when I was a kid, there was a rumor in the Hall.
是的，你知道，当我还是个孩子的时候，大厅里有一个谣言。
This is crazy.
这太疯狂了。
The Smurf rumor?
蓝精灵传闻？
Neil Drumming The Smurf rumor.
尼尔鼓吹蓝精灵谣言。
No, you heard the Smurf rumor?
不，你听说过蓝精灵的传闻吗？
OK.
好的。
Tell it to me.
告诉我吧。
Tell it to me the way you heard it.
按照你听到的方式告诉我。
I want to hear this.
我想听听这个。
Oh, my gosh.
哦，天哪。
As soon as you said you heard a rumor, I'm like, is it the Smurf rumor?
当你说你听到谣言时，我就想，这是蓝精灵谣言吗？
Yes, the Smurf rumor, for everybody who doesn't know the Smurf rumor, apparently a sister came to the congregation with one of her children who had a Smurf doll, and during the meeting the Smurf doll came to life, and started running back and forth through the aisles saying, [BLEEP] you, [BLEEP] you, [BLEEP] God, [BLEEP] Jehovah, back and forth through the Kingdom Hall.
是的，关于蓝精灵的谣言，对于每个不知道蓝精灵谣言的人来说，显然有一位姐妹带着她的一个带着蓝精灵娃娃的孩子来到会众，在聚会期间，蓝精灵娃娃活了过来，开始在过道中来回跑着，说着，[哔]你，[哔]你，[哔]上帝，[哔]耶和华，在王国聚会所来回跑。
Is that your version of it?
这是你的版本吗？
I feel like I'm about to cry.
我感觉我快要哭了。
I've never heard this corroborated.
我从来没有听说过这个证实。
You have more detail.
你有更详细的信息。
The way I heard it was, a kid came to the Kingdom Hall with a Smurf in their back pocket, and it jumped out and ran out.
我听说的是，一个孩子来到王国聚会所，后兜里装着一个蓝精灵，它跳了出来，跑了出去。
But it's essentially the same idea, is that the mythology around the Smurfs were so demonic that they were, I don't know, somehow associated with Satan.
但本质上是相同的想法，即围绕蓝精灵的神话是如此邪恶，以至于我不知道他们与撒旦有某种联系。
Repressed nerdiness is about where the similarities between Will and I end.
压抑的书呆子是威尔和我之间的相似之处的终结。
I grew up in Queens.
我在皇后区长大。
He's from the Pacific Northwest.
他来自太平洋西北地区。
I'm black.
我是黑人。
He's white.
他是白人。
I'm straight.
我是直的。
He's gay.
他是同性恋。
And my mother raised me in the Truth, which is how Jehovah's Witnesses colloquially refer to their faith.
我母亲以真理抚养我长大，这就是耶和华见证人对他们信仰的俗称。
No one in Will's immediate family was a practicing witness.
威尔的直系亲属中没有人是执业证人。
He found the Truth and chose it for himself, although family has a lot to do with why he did.
他找到了真理并为自己选择了它，尽管家庭与他这样做有很大关系。
I had a very physically violent father.
我有一个非常暴力的父亲。
Everything that I felt like I did or that I was interested, my dad hated.
我所做的一切或我感兴趣的一切，我父亲都讨厌。
Like, you could tell if somebody is enjoying being unkind to you.
就像，你可以判断某人是否喜欢对你不友善。
If I wanted to go outside, he'd say no, you can't go outside, and would say with a smile on his face.
如果我想出去，他会说不，你不能出去，并且脸上带着微笑说。
When Will was about 11 years old, his family moved into a new place, and he met the Planks.
当威尔大约 11 岁的时候，他的家人搬到了一个新地方，他认识了普兰克斯一家。
The Planks were a neighboring family of Jehovah's Witnesses, a mom, a dad, and two daughters.
普兰克一家是耶和华见证人的邻居，有一位母亲、一位父亲和两个女儿。
As soon as he started going over to their house, Will notice something different about them.
他一开始去他们家，威尔就注意到他们有些不同。
Oh, these are people who are nice, and they really seem to love each other, and they really seem to be close to each other.
哦，这些人都是很好的人，他们看起来真的很相爱，而且他们看起来真的很亲近。
And so it was just a complete diametric opposite of what I was experiencing right next door in my own home.
所以这与我在自己家隔壁所经历的完全相反。
I felt that I could kind of be a little more silly, that I could be a little more calm.
我觉得我可以再傻一点，我可以再冷静一点。
And I associated how they behaved with them being Jehovah's Witnesses, because they would always say things like, Jehovah provides, or we do these things and Jehovah blessed us.
我把他们的行为与耶和华见证人联系起来，因为他们总是说，耶和华提供了这样的话，或者我们做了这些事，耶和华就赐福给我们。
And so it was really like, oh, so there's a reason why you're like this.
所以它真的就像，哦，所以你这样是有原因的。
So Will began studying with the Planks, learning Scripture and lessons from the parents right alongside their daughters.
于是威尔开始和普兰克斯一起学习，和女儿们一起向父母学习经文和课程。
He did so in secret.
他是秘密这样做的。
He didn't tell his family that he was becoming a Jehovah's Witness.
他没有告诉家人他要成为耶和华见证人。
It was his escape.
这是他的逃脱。
It was almost like a form of a very kind of sweet rebellion in a way, where it's like having a clubhouse that nobody has access to but me.
在某种程度上，这几乎就像是一种非常甜蜜的叛逆形式，就像拥有一个除了我之外没有人可以进入的俱乐部会所。
At the Planks's and eventually at the Kingdom Hall, Will found kindness, acceptance, and engagement amongst the brothers and sisters there.
在普兰克斯家，最后在王国聚会所，威尔在那里的兄弟姐妹中找到了友善、接纳和参与。
And for him, there was a special added bonus.
对他来说，还有一个特别的额外好处。
When I realized that I was gay, I saw it as an imperfection in myself, like if I thought that I was a kleptomaniac.
当我意识到自己是同性恋时，我认为这是自己的不完美，就像我认为自己是一个盗窃狂一样。
Like, OK, jeez, I've got this huge thing about myself that I need to figure out how to control, and I need to learn how to hate.
就像，好吧，天哪，我自己有一个很大的问题，我需要弄清楚如何控制，我需要学习如何讨厌。
And so being a Witness was to me like the most strict form of control that I could do.
因此，成为见证人对我来说就像是我能做到的最严格的控制形式。
Exercising that control wasn't easy for Will.
对威尔来说，行使这种控制权并不容易。
The Bible says plenty about temptation, none of which I can specifically remember, the upshot of which is that temptation is everywhere.
圣经关于诱惑说了很多，但我都记不清了，其结果是诱惑无处不在。
I loved the show Will and Grace, but I'm like, I cannot watch this show because Satan is watching me.
我喜欢《威尔与格蕾丝》这个节目，但我想，我不能看这个节目，因为撒旦在看着我。
Did you have crushes within the Kingdom Hall?
你在王国聚会所里有暗恋过吗？
Are you kidding?
你在开玩笑吧？
Neil Drumming It's a lot of men in suits.
尼尔打鼓 这里有很多穿西装的男人。
There's a lot of suits, yeah, and that are good speakers.
是的，有很多西装，而且都是很好的演讲者。
I loved to give talks.
我喜欢演讲。
I loved to write talks.
我喜欢写演讲稿。
It was smooth.
很顺利。
I was very, very good.
我非常非常好。
And it came very easily for me to do.
这对我来说很容易做到。
And so when I would have a brother compliment me, getting male praise was kind of intoxicating.
因此，当我想让一个兄弟称赞我时，获得男性的称赞是一种令人陶醉的感觉。
And it was-- I would say like, when I got baptized when I was 23 was really when I really began to feel sort of my depression because I was really trying to do more and more in the congregation to suppress that feeling of being gay.
我会说，当我 23 岁时受洗时，我真的开始感到某种抑郁，因为我真的试图在会众中做越来越多的事情来抑制同性恋的感觉。
Meanwhile, there were would be brothers that I would have crushes on, and they'd be married.
与此同时，会有一些我喜欢的兄弟，他们会结婚。
I would be developing these relationships, these friendships, with these brothers, and I would start to get feelings for, and would we get irritated because I can't do anything about this.
我会和这些兄弟发展这些关系、这些友谊，我会开始产生感情，我们会因为我对此无能为力而生气。
I found myself getting more and more needy around these brothers because I would want to like, so do you want to come over hang out?
我发现自己在这些兄弟身边变得越来越需要，因为我想要喜欢，所以你想过来玩吗？
Do you want to go do something?
你想去做什么吗？
Do you want to go for a hike?
你想去远足吗？
Do you want to go do this?
你想去干这个吗？
And they'd be like, let me check with my wife.
他们会说，让我和我妻子核实一下。
And I would just be like, ugh, fine.
我就会说，呃，好吧。
Will persisted for years fighting his natural inclinations and growing more and more active in the truth.
威尔多年来坚持与自己的自然倾向作斗争，并在真理上变得越来越积极。
By the time he was 30, he was what witnesses call a full-time pioneer, putting in 70 hours worth of street preaching and evangelical work per month, living with a cousin and her family who were Jehovah's Witnesses.
当他30岁的时候，他已经成为目击者所称的全时先驱，每月投入70个小时的街头讲道和福音工作，与表亲和她的家人住在一起，他们都是耶和华见证人。
And I was in my 30's and now a virgin still, and your sexuality doesn't really go anywhere.
当时我已经三十多岁了，现在还是处女，你的性取向并没有真正发挥作用。
To be blunt, I needed an outlet.
坦白说，我需要一个出口。
And I knew I wasn't interested in girls.
我知道我对女孩不感兴趣。
And so I would go to gay websites, graphic gay websites.
所以我会去同性恋网站，图形同性恋网站。
When you would visit those websites, that is appealing to a thing that is intrinsically you.
当您访问这些网站时，您本质上会被吸引。
So was there any relief to actually acknowledging yourself, to like acknowledging who you were?
那么，真正承认自己、喜欢承认自己是谁，会有什么解脱吗？
Was that-- did you get even like, a small amount of like satisfaction from that?
那是——你有没有从中得到一点点类似的满足感？
Will was out picking up Chinese food for the rest of the family when they discovered his browser history.
当威尔出去为家人买中餐时，他们发现了他的浏览器历史记录。
The cousin's eldest son, a college student, was trying to figure out why internet service was slow in the house that night.
表弟的大儿子是一名大学生，他想弄清楚为什么那天晚上家里的互联网服务很慢。
He thought maybe Will had left his laptop downloading some big file or another.
他想也许威尔离开了他的笔记本电脑，下载了一些大文件或其他文件。
When Will got back with dinner, the husband confronted him at the door.
当威尔吃晚饭回来时，丈夫在门口与他对峙。
It was like having my skin ripped off of me at that moment.
那一刻就像我的皮肤被撕掉了一样。
And I just started lying.
我刚刚开始撒谎。
Wow.
哇。
What did you say?
你说什么？
Will Mcmillian I was like, you know what?
我当时想，麦克米利安，你知道吗？
My computer has malware on it, and it keeps bringing up all these pornography websites.
我的电脑上有恶意软件，它不断地弹出所有这些色情网站。
And I keep trying to minimize it and get rid of it, but it's not me.
我一直试图最小化它并摆脱它，但这不是我。
And I kept saying like, you know me.
我一直说，你了解我。
You know I wouldn't do this.
你知道我不会这样做。
This is a huge mistake.
这是一个巨大的错误。
And so he like, pulled open my laptop and was like, well, this isn't just something from a few weeks or a few months.
于是他打开我的笔记本电脑，然后说，这不仅仅是几周或几个月的事情。
He goes, this goes back years.
他走了，这可以追溯到很多年前。
There's no defiance there.
那里没有反抗。
There's no anger.
没有愤怒。
No. That he checked my computer and saw that?
不。他检查了我的电脑并看到了那个？
Yeah, and that like-- you know, I'm projecting because I'm listening to this story, and I'm angry.
是的，就像——你知道，我正在预测，因为我正在听这个故事，我很生气。
I feel angry for you.
我为你感到愤怒。
You know, I'm just like, the whole notion that you would say like, you know me, I wouldn't do this.
你知道，我就像，你会说，你了解我，我不会这样做。
It's like, he doesn't know you at all.
就好像他根本不认识你一样。
The husband told him to pack up his things and drove him to a hotel.
丈夫让他收拾东西，开车送他去酒店。
News of Will's transgression soon spread through the Kingdom Hall.
威尔违法的消息很快就传遍了王国聚会所。
He was brought before a judicial committee of congregation elders.
他被带到会众长老司法委员会面前。
They said a prayer.
他们做了祈祷。
And they said, so tell us why you're here?
他们说，那么告诉我们你为什么来这里？
Tell us tell us what you've done.
告诉我们你做了什么。
And once I made the confession, one of the brothers pulled out this piece of paper, and there was a bunch of questions.
当我坦白后，其中一个兄弟拿出这张纸，提出了一堆问题。
But the first question was, are you attracted to minors?
但第一个问题是，你对未成年人感兴趣吗？
Have you ever had sex with a minor?
您曾经与未成年人发生过性行为吗？
Are you attracted to animals?
你被动物吸引吗？
Have you ever engaged in bestiality?
你有过兽交经历吗？
Those are the first questions they asked you?
这些是他们问你的第一个问题？
First four questions that they asked me.
他们问我的前四个问题。
He was stripped of his privileges within the Kingdom Hall and essentially put on probation, where he could attend meetings in silence, but little else.
他被剥夺了在王国聚会所内的特权，基本上处于缓刑状态，在那里他可以安静地参加会议，但除此之外别无其他。
On top of that, he was informed that no matter what happened, he would never be allowed to be alone with children in the congregation ever again.
最重要的是，他被告知，无论发生什么，他都不会再被允许与会众里的孩子们单独相处。
Will quietly accept this reprobation without resistance.
会默默地接受这种斥责，没有反抗。
The next phase in Will's life began the way so many new beginnings do these days, with the dating app OKCupid.
威尔人生的下一个阶段就像如今许多新的开始一样，从约会应用程序 OKCupid 开始。
Instead of starting back to the Hall immediately, Will decided he needed some time to himself and moved in with a friend of his, a non-Witness.
威尔没有立即返回礼堂，而是决定自己需要一些时间，于是搬去和他的一位非见证人朋友住在一起。
She had just opened up her own OKCupid profile.
她刚刚打开了自己的 OKCupid 个人资料。
And she was like you should make one too.
她说你也应该做一个。
And I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
And so I made one, and I made it like, man seeking woman, just to see what would happen.
所以我做了一个，我把它做成了，男人寻找女人，只是为了看看会发生什么。
That alone was something I shouldn't have been doing, because if you're a brother, you only date sisters.
仅此一点就是我不应该做的事情，因为如果你是兄弟，你就只能和姐妹约会。
You only date within your religion.
你只在你的宗教信仰范围内约会。
But again, I was like, I'm just taking a vacation from all of that stress.
但我又想，我只是在休假，摆脱所有的压力。
I'm just going to see what this feels like.
我只是想看看这是什么感觉。
And for a couple of weeks, it was, you know, man seeking woman.
几周以来，你知道，这是男人在寻找女人。
And then I thought, what if I changed it to man seeking man?
然后我想，如果我把它改成男人寻找男人呢？
Like, I remember like, kind of my finger on the mouse changing the designation from seeking female to male, and I was shaking, and I'm like, am I really going to do this?
就像，我记得，我的手指在鼠标上将名称从寻找女性更改为男性，我在发抖，我想，我真的要这样做吗？
And I was daring myself to do it.
我也敢于这么做。
And I did it.
我做到了。
Will made plans for lunch in downtown Portland with a younger guy named Jason.
威尔计划与一个名叫杰森的年轻人在波特兰市中心共进午餐。
And so we met up at the sandwich shop, and he was gay.
所以我们在三明治店见面，他是同性恋。
[LAUGHS] Will Mcmillian And he was gay.
[笑] 威尔·麦克米利安 他是同性恋。
And because I mean--
因为我的意思是——
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Will Mcmillian It doesn't mean anything bad.
威尔·麦克米兰：这并不意味着什么坏事。
It just means like-- because it wasn't bad.
它只是意味着——因为它还不错。
Because we were talking, and he was like, he's been out since he was like, 16 or 17 years old.
因为我们在谈话时，他说，他从 16 或 17 岁起就出去了。
And I think he was like 25, 26 at the time.
我想他当时大概25岁、26岁。
Maybe a little older.
也许年纪大了一点。
But he was absolutely comfortable with himself.
但他对自己绝对感到满意。
He was absolutely assured of himself.
他对自己绝对有信心。
Will and Jason dated for a couple of months before they had sex.
威尔和杰森在发生性关系之前约会了几个月。
It was a huge step for Will.
这对威尔来说是巨大的一步。
But when it was over, Will didn't feel the way he thought he would.
但当一切结束后，威尔的感觉并不像他想象的那样。
That sense of devastation that I was like, oh, my gosh I've completely severed my relationship with God didn't happen.
我当时想的那种毁灭感，哦，天哪，我已经完全断绝了与上帝的关系，但这种感觉并没有发生。
It didn't happen.
它没有发生。
Will Mcmillian It didn't happen.
威尔·麦克米兰：这并没有发生。
No, which was equally weird.
不，这同样奇怪。
I'm like, oh.
我就像，哦。
Here I was thinking I was going to be completely destroyed.
在这里我想我会被彻底摧毁。
And--
还有——
It's like you're waiting for the lightning bolt.
就像你在等待闪电一样。
Yeah, and it never-- it didn't drop on me.
是的，它从来没有落在我身上。
But I mean, I still felt kind of weird.
但我的意思是，我还是觉得有点奇怪。
Like, I remember feeling like, well, you've done it now.
就像，我记得感觉，好吧，你现在已经做到了。
There is no going back from this experience.
这段经历是无法回头的。
You're going to have to tell the brothers that you did this.
你必须告诉兄弟们这是你做的。
And he was right.
他是对的。
As crazy as this sounds, the very morning after he lost his virginity, Will came home to an email from another witness, an old friend, who had somehow stumbled upon Will's OKCupid profile and was now threatening to out him.
这听起来很疯狂，就在他失去童贞的第二天早上，威尔回到家，收到了另一位目击者的电子邮件，他是一位老朋友，不知何故偶然发现了威尔的 OKCupid 个人资料，现在威胁要赶走他。
I mentioned to Will that it seemed to me rather suspicious that this righteous and straight and happily married brother just happened to have discovered Will's men seeking men profile.
我向威尔提到，在我看来，这个正义、正直、婚姻幸福的兄弟恰好发现了威尔的男人寻找男人的资料，这让我感到相当可疑。
But Will, good-natured as he is, refused to go down that speculative road with me.
但威尔，尽管他脾气很好，却拒绝和我一起走这条投机之路。
He said the brother wrote, either you tell them or I will.
他说哥哥写信说，要么你告诉他们，要么我告诉他们。
And so with the proverbial gun to his head, Will called up one of the elders and told him that he had, as he put it then, a problem.
于是，随着众所周知的枪指着他的头，威尔打电话给一位长老，告诉他，正如他当时所说的那样，他遇到了问题。
He was kicked out, officially disfellowshipped.
他被开除了，正式开除会籍。
Unlike Will, I was never disfellowshipped.
与威尔不同，我从未被开除过。
When I was 16 or 17, I gave my mom this long handwritten letter informing her that I had stopped believing in God and that I no longer wanted to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
当我16或17岁的时候，我给了妈妈一封手写的长信，告诉她我已经不再相信上帝，并且我不再想成为耶和华见证人之一。
I don't remember exactly what was in the letter.
我不记得信里具体写了什么。
I'm sure I didn't mention that hormones and a sudden vexing need to talk to girls were factors in my decision.
我确信我没有提到荷尔蒙和突然与女孩交谈的烦恼是我做出决定的因素。
Anyway, I slammed that door really hard, and it became one of the defining choices of my life.
不管怎样，我用力地关上了那扇门，它成为我一生中决定性的选择之一。
Shortly after I gave Ma the letter, I flew 3,000 miles away to college, and by the time I stepped off the plane, I was an atheist.
在我给妈妈这封信后不久，我就飞到了 3000 英里外的大学，当我走下飞机时，我已经是一个无神论者了。
For the most part, I'm relatively proud of everything I've become after that.
在大多数情况下，我对我之后所取得的一切感到相对自豪。
When I first read Will's email, I couldn't understand why he was holding onto the truth.
当我第一次读到威尔的电子邮件时，我不明白他为什么坚持真理。
The Jehovah's Witnesses had publicly slammed the door on who he was and who he was becoming.
耶和华见证人公开对他是谁以及他将成为谁表示拒绝。
It wasn't that I thought he should be angry, although I felt like he should be a little angry.
我并不认为他应该生气，虽然我觉得他应该有点生气。
But I wondered why he wasn't free, why he sometimes still thought that Harry Potter was satanic, or that his sexuality was a sin, or why he couldn't just move on.
但我想知道为什么他不自由，为什么他有时仍然认为哈利·波特是撒旦，或者他的性取向是一种罪过，或者为什么他不能继续前进。
After talking to Will for a while, it became obvious that it's just not that easy.
与威尔交谈了一段时间后，很明显这并不那么容易。
He was a witness for a long time.
他长期以来一直是见证人。
What he learned won't just go away.
他学到的东西不会消失。
And then something more surprising hit me, a pang of envy.
然后更令人惊讶的事情袭击了我，一种嫉妒的痛苦。
I was a little jealous of the way Will remembered specific scriptures, even the ones that condemned him.
我有点嫉妒威尔记住特定经文的方式，甚至是那些谴责他的经文。
Was that the red one?
是那个红色的吗？
Will Mcmillian No, I think that that's the Live Forever book maybe.
威尔·麦克米利安：不，我想那可能是《永生》这本书。
Oh, yeah, yeah.
哦，是啊，是啊。
It sounds familiar, but I don't remember which one it was.
听起来很熟悉，但我不记得是哪一个。
The Knowledge that Leads to Everlasting Life.
带来永生的知识。
I remember I was reading out of that book when I was a teenager, and I loved it.
我记得我十几岁的时候读过那本书，我很喜欢它。
Will recalled the details, what the different Jehovah's Witness books were called and their corresponding colors, the meetings, the designations of all the elders.
威尔回忆起细节，不同的耶和华见证人书籍的名称及其相应的颜色，会议，所有长老的名称。
I had made turning my back on the truth such a significant part of my identity that I had lost these memories.
我把背弃真相作为我身份的重要组成部分，以至于我失去了这些记忆。
I'm sorry, can we nerd out on Jehovah's Witnesses just a little bit, just a little bit.
抱歉，我们可以稍微迷恋一下耶和华见证人吗？
One thing.
一件事。
Sure.
当然。
Yeah, totally.
是的，完全可以。
Neil Drumming I have heard that nowadays, that you don't have to necessarily analyze Scripture anymore.
尼尔·鼓明 我听说现在你不必再分析圣经了。
You just have to read it.
你只需要阅读它。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
Will Mcmillian Yeah, so then these yahoos are getting up to read through a couple of passages, and I'm just like, man, in my day--
威尔·麦克米利安：是的，所以这些雅虎们就站起来读几段文章，我就像，伙计，在我那个时代——
Yeah, back in my day, we had to like, actually know what the Scripture meant.
是的，在我那个时代，我们必须真正了解圣经的含义。
I should say in recent years, Jehovah's Witnesses reorganized their meetings again to focus more on understanding and interpreting Scripture.
我应该说，近年来，耶和华见证人再次重组了他们的聚会，以更加注重理解和解释圣经。
I don't remember half of what I learned in the Kingdom Hall, but there is enough that has stuck with me that still occasionally affects the way I see the world or the decisions I make, even if I don't like to admit it.
我不记得在王国聚会所学到的一半内容，但有足够多的东西一直困扰着我，即使我不愿意承认，它们仍然偶尔会影响我看待世界的方式或我所做的决定。
Will calls it a spiritual aftertaste.
威尔称之为精神上的余味。
Just this morning I had like, something that I really, really, really wanted to happen, and I was hoping it would happen.
就在今天早上，我真的、真的、真的想要发生一些事情，我希望它会发生。
And I had a gut feeling of, what can I do about this?
我有一种直觉，我能做些什么呢？
And the word "pray" came to mind, which is ridiculous for me.
我想到了“祈祷”这个词，这对我来说很可笑。
I've haven't prayed since I was 17 years old.
我从17岁起就没有祈祷过。
And it's like, I don't believe in the power of prayer.
就像，我不相信祈祷的力量。
But it's like built into your DNA at a certain point, or like, you know, more into your muscle memory.
但它就像在某个时刻内置到你的 DNA 中，或者，你知道，更多地内置到你的肌肉记忆中。
And it just-- it made me actually angry to feel that way because I try to be self-determined.
这种感觉让我真的很生气，因为我试图做出自我决定。
Yeah.
是的。
It's almost like, I think if you think of in terms of military training, you kind of react to situations based on what your training has told you.
我认为，这几乎就像，如果你考虑军事训练，你会根据训练告诉你的内容对情况做出反应。
After I quit, my mom sent me a few long handwritten letters urging me to come back to the Kingdom Hall.
我辞职后，妈妈给我写了几封长长的手写信，催促我回到王国聚会所。
At least, I think that's what they said.
至少，我认为他们是这么说的。
I never read any of them.
我从来没有读过其中任何一个。
I felt like I had made my decision, and I hated that she questioned it.
我觉得我已经做出了决定，我讨厌她质疑我的决定。
These days, when I see Jehovah's Witnesses in the street handing out material, I sometimes go rigid and quickly look away.
这些天，当我看到耶和华见证人在街上分发材料时，我有时会变得僵硬并迅速移开视线。
I just don't want to deal with it.
我只是不想处理它。
I picked a side.
我选择了一边。
But Will stands halfway between them and me.
但威尔站在他们和我之间。
He's half in and half out.
他一半在里面，一半在外面。
Somehow, that made it possible to look back for a couple of hours, to remember that it meant something to me then without it having to mean something to me now.
不知何故，这让我有可能回顾几个小时，记住它当时对我来说意味着什么，而现在不一定对我意味着什么。
Neil Drumming is one of the produces of our show.
尼尔·鼓手是我们节目的制作人之一。
Our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis.
我们今天的节目由 Dana Chivvis 制作。
Our staff includes Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Kimberly Henderson, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Robyn Semien, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
我们的员工包括 Elna Baker、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Stephanie Foo、Kimberly Henderson、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Robyn Semien、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
[ACKNOWLEDGMENTS] Gerald Murnane, the Austrian novelist I talked to at the beginning of the show, he's the author of The Plains and other books.
[致谢]杰拉尔德·穆南 (Gerald Murnane)，我在节目开始时采访过的奥地利小说家，他是《平原》和其他书籍的作者。
He has not one, but two books coming out here in the States soon.
他很快就在美国出版了两本书，而不是一本书。
One is Border Districts.
一是边境地区。
The other Stream System-- The Collected Short Fiction of Gerald Murnane.
另一种流系——杰拉尔德·穆南短篇小说集。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he's still wearing those special glasses that he bought to watch the eclipse.
你知道，他还戴着他买来观看日食的特殊眼镜。
He says they are so powerful.
他说他们太强大了。
And I can watch and see rainforests get destroyed, or I can see politicians come into office and do terrible things to people.
我可以看到热带雨林被毁，或者我可以看到政客上任后对人们做出可怕的事情。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。