621: Fear and Loathing in Homer and Rockville - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #621 | July 21, 2017 621: Fear and Loathing in Homer and Rockville Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 621 集 | 2017 年 7 月 21 日 621：《荷马与罗克维尔》中的恐惧与厌恶 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

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Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

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Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

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Prologue Ira Glass

序言 艾拉·格拉斯

Years ago, the senior producer of our program, Brian Reed, worked for a few months in Homer, Alaska as a fish hauler.

几年前，我们节目的高级制作人布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）在阿拉斯加荷马当了几个月的鱼搬运工。

He still knows some people there.

他仍然认识那里的一些人。

And that's actually how I heard about this.

我就是这么听说的。

Basically, there's been this huge political fight going on in the town.

基本上，镇上正在发生一场巨大的政治斗争。

Everyone's at each other's throats.

每个人都在互相争斗。

They're going crazy on social media.

他们在社交媒体上变得疯狂。

They're up in arms.

他们全副武装。

You know, my friend, who's lived there for decades, three decades, says she's never seen the town like this before.

你知道，我的朋友在那里住了几十年、三十年，她说她以前从未见过这个小镇。

And what's the issue?

还有什么问题呢？

Brian Reed Well, it started over illegal immigration, which is a weird thing for Homer to be fighting over, because it doesn't really have any immigrants.

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）：好吧，它始于非法移民，这对荷马来说是一件奇怪的事情，因为它实际上没有任何移民。

Which makes sense, given where Homer is.

考虑到荷马所在的位置，这是有道理的。

Yeah, Homer's far.

是的，荷马还很远。

Brian Reed Yeah, it's literally the end of the road in America.

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）：是的，这确实是美国道路的尽头。

That's like what they're known as.

这就像他们被称为的那样。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Brian Reed All right, so say like you were to drive, like cross over the Canadian border from Washington State, say.

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 好吧，就像你要开车一样，比如从华盛顿州穿越加拿大边境。

OK, so I'm in Washington State.

好的，我在华盛顿州。

I've crossed into Canada.

我已经越境进入加拿大了。

Yeah, you're driving north.

是的，你正在向北行驶。

You're driving for like 2,500 miles, like it's like basically the same length as crossing the US coast to coast.

您行驶了大约 2,500 英里，就像穿越美国东海岸到西海岸的长度基本相同。

All right, so you go all the way up Canada that way.

好吧，你就这样一直到加拿大去吧。

You cross back into Alaska.

你穿越回到阿拉斯加。

Can you picture that?

你能想象得到吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Brian Reed All right, then you got like another 11 hours.

Brian Reed 好吧，那么你还有 11 个小时。

You're going to drive on to the peninsula, the Kenai Peninsula.

您将开车前往基奈半岛。

You keep driving.

你继续开车。

And then it's right on this bay called the Kachemak Bay.

然后它就在这个叫做卡彻马克湾的海湾上。

And stretching out into the bay is this little strip of land called the spit.

延伸到海湾的是这片称为沙嘴的小土地。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Brian Reed That's the end of the road.

布莱恩·里德 那是路的尽头。

It's the furthest you can drive in America.

这是您在美国可以行驶的最远距离。

And that's Homer.

这就是荷马。

What that means, is if you were to cross into the United States from Mexico, this is possibly the least convenient place in America you could end up.

这意味着，如果您要从墨西哥进入美国，这可能是您最终可能到达的美国最不方便的地方。

If you're a member of ISIS, conceivably, I guess, you could fly to Alaska or cross the Bering Strait from Russia.

如果你是伊斯兰国的成员，我想，你可以从俄罗斯飞往阿拉斯加或穿越白令海峡。

But Brian actually checked with federal authorities, the official from US Immigration and Customs Enforcement who is responsible for Alaska, who said that this does not seem to be happening.

但布莱恩实际上向联邦当局核实过，美国移民和海关执法局负责阿拉斯加事务的官员表示，这种情况似乎并没有发生。

And people in Homer know this.

荷马史诗中的人们都知道这一点。

They know that illegal immigration is not their issue.

他们知道非法移民不是他们的问题。

Are you aware of any undocumented immigrants in Homer?

您知道荷马有无证移民吗？

No. Brian Reed Do you have any memory of there being an undocumented immigrant in Homer?

不。布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 您还记得荷马有过无证移民吗？

No. Brian Reed Have you ever heard of an undocumented immigrant in Homer?

不。布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 您听说过荷马州的无证移民吗？

No. Brian Reed Have you ever heard of an undocumented immigrant being in Homer in your almost 40 years here?

不。布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 在您来到荷马的近 40 年里，您听说过荷马有无证移民吗？

No. Brian Reed I've asked pretty much everyone I talked to the same question.

不。布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 我几乎问过所有与我交谈过的人同样的问题。

I heard a couple stories about some people in town who were undocumented at one point or another.

我听说过一些关于城里一些人有时没有证件的故事。

But it's rare.

但这种情况很少见。

I asked the Homer police chief about it.

我向荷马警察局长询问了此事。

He sent me this email.

他给我发了这封电子邮件。

Quote, "Brian, Homer is not a destination for immigrants, illegal or legal, and it never has been.

引用：“布莱恩，荷马不是非法或合法移民的目的地，而且从来都不是。

The Homer Police Department is not aware of any immigrants in our area.

荷马警察局不知道我们地区有任何移民。

Mark Robel, Chief of Police, Homer Police Department."

马克·罗贝尔，荷马警察局警察局长。”

Yeah.

是的。

Ira Glass But people are still fighting over immigrants coming to their town?

Ira Glass 但人们仍在为移民来到他们的城镇而争论吗？

Yeah, because it was mentioned in this resolution in the town council that would have welcomed immigrants to Homer.

是的，因为镇议会的这项决议中提到了欢迎移民来到荷马。

No, do we need a resolution?

不，我们需要一个解决方案吗？

Protester 2 --in our parking lot.

抗议者 2——在我们的停车场。

No, do we need a resolution?

不，我们需要一个解决方案吗？

Protester 2 Yeah.

抗议者2 是的。

This is two people from opposing sides of this issue.

这是这个问题上对立双方的两个人。

They're each holding opposing signs in their hands.

他们每个人手里都拿着相反的标语。

One's red, one blue.

一个是红色，一个是蓝色。

They're standing on a street corner on Pioneer Avenue, the main drag in Homer.

他们站在先锋大道的街角，这是荷马的主要街道。

They've never met before.

他们以前从未见过面。

Arguing over this.

为此事争论不休。

I think they need a-- Protester 1 You'd like to see in a resolution--

我认为他们需要 - 抗议者 1 你希望在决议中看到 -

I would like to see an inclusive-- Everyone's welcome.

我希望看到一种包容性——欢迎所有人。

Please look-- Protester 2 Everyone's welcome.

请看——抗议者2 欢迎大家。

Human rights are civil rights, civil rights are human rights.

人权就是公民权利，公民权利就是人权。

Do we have somebody saying that they're not welcome here?

有人说这里不欢迎他们吗？

Don't we have an America where everybody's welcome?

我们的美国难道不是一个人人都欢迎的国家吗？

Why are you doing this?

你为什么要这样做？

Why are you pushing this kind of crap?

你为什么要推这种垃圾？

All right, so basically, after the presidential election, liberals in town, they were not happy that Trump was elected.

好吧，基本上，在总统选举之后，城里的自由派人士对特朗普当选并不满意。

They were wanting to do something, and they drafted this resolution.

他们想做点什么，所以起草了这个决议。

And what it said, among other things, was that Homer stood against discrimination, and they mentioned undocumented immigrants and Muslims as people who would be welcome in the city.

除其他外，它所说的是荷马反对歧视，他们提到无证移民和穆斯林是这座城市会受到欢迎的人。

So, they'd be welcome.

所以，他们会很受欢迎。

Like, what does that mean?

比如说，这是什么意思？

In practice, nothing.

实际上，什么也没有。

It was not a law.

这不是法律。

It was not even an ordinance.

这甚至不是一条法令。

It was a resolution.

这是一个决议。

It was just like a statement of how the town feels as a city, what it stands for.

这就像一个关于这个小镇作为一个城市的感觉以及它代表什么的陈述。

So Trump voters saw that, and they felt--

所以特朗普选民看到了这一点，他们觉得——

They were pissed, because it was a slap in the face against their guy, basically.

他们很生气，因为这基本上是打在他们的家伙脸上的一记耳光。

And an early version of this resolution actually called Trump out by name a bunch.

该决议的早期版本实际上点名批评了特朗普。

So, here, I have a little bit of it here.

所以，在这里，我有一点点。

It says like, "Whereas a new administration is in power in Washington, D.C., without a popular mandate, whereas during his campaign, President Donald Trump made statements offensive and harmful to the rights of women, immigrants, religious, racial, and ethnic minorities."

它说，“尽管新一届政府在华盛顿特区掌权，但没有得到民众的授权，而唐纳德·特朗普总统在竞选期间发表了冒犯和损害妇女、移民、宗教、种族和族裔少数群体权利的言论。”

That kind of thing.

那种事。

And the early draft also said that the city would not always cooperate with federal agencies when it came to detaining undocumented immigrants.

早期草案还表示，在拘留无证移民方面，该市不会总是与联邦机构合作。

Wow, so I see why Trump voters were mad.

哇，我明白特朗普选民为什么生气了。

Yeah, and there's a lot of Trump voters in Homer.

是的，荷马有很多特朗普选民。

About half the city.

大约半个城市。

So, and then this resolution came before the city council?

那么，然后这个决议就提交给了市议会？

Yeah.

是的。

Council Member So at this time, we can take public comment on any matter on the agenda.

理事会成员 现在，我们可以就议程上的任何事项征求公众意见。

Please come forward and sign in.

请上前登录。

People, like, descended on this town council meeting in droves, back in February.

早在二月份，人们就成群结队地参加了这次镇议会会议。

The council chambers were packed.

议事厅挤满了人。

People were lined up against the walls.

人们靠墙排成一排。

They were sitting on the floor.

他们坐在地板上。

They were lined up out the door and down the hall, into an overflow room, where they piped the meeting in.

他们在门外排队，穿过大厅，进入一间挤满人的房间，在那里他们通过管道传送会议信息。

It was broadcast on the radio.

它在广播中播出。

I talked to bunch of people-- people actually listened to it on the radio, all over town, which was amazing to me.

我和很多人交谈过——全城的人们都在广播里听过这首歌，这对我来说太棒了。

It was intense.

很激烈。

It was very emotional.

这是非常感人的。

Four people have cried as they were talking to me about this meeting, months after it happened.

几个月后，有四个人在与我谈论这次会议时哭了。

It was that emotional on both sides of the issue.

这个问题的双方都很情绪化。

Why was it so emotional?

为何如此感慨？

Brian Reed I just think this meeting was kind of a moment where everyone in town declared for the first time where they stood on this, publicly, to their neighbors.

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）：我只是认为这次会议是镇上每个人第一次向邻居公开宣布他们在这一问题上的立场的时刻。

If you vote yes on this, I'll be your worst nightmare.

如果你对此投赞成票，我将成为你最糟糕的噩梦。

Because I'll push for a recall.

因为我会推动召回。

People at the meeting were overwhelmingly against the resolution.

与会人员绝大多数反对这项决议。

You bring in illegals, OK, by definition, they're criminals.

你引进非法移民，好吧，根据定义，他们是罪犯。

OK, they live in the underworld.

好吧，他们生活在地下世界。

They don't have a stake in the game as we do.

他们不像我们那样在游戏中拥有利益。

About the first time somebody gets raped or killed, I hope they come straight after the Homer City Council and sue the City to the point of bankruptcy.

第一次有人被强奸或杀害时，我希望他们直接追随荷马市议会，起诉该市直至破产。

If you make this a magnet for that type of people, then, you know, shame on you.

如果你让它吸引了这类人，那么，你知道，你会感到羞耻。

So people are really scared.

所以人们真的很害怕。

Brian Reed Yeah, and angry.

布莱恩·里德 是的，而且很生气。

And the people on the other side, they felt scared, seeing what their neighbors think and what they were willing to say-- because they felt like people were being hateful and discriminatory-- or what they said aloud at the meeting.

而另一边的人们，看到邻居的想法和他们愿意说的话，他们感到害怕——因为他们觉得人们充满仇恨和歧视——或者他们在会议上大声说的话。

Three weeks ago, I stood on the corner of Heath and Pioneer with a sign that read Muslim immigrant, Homer local.

三周前，我站在希思街和先锋街的拐角处，举着一块牌子，上面写着穆斯林移民，荷马本地人。

This is a guy named Shamir.

这是一个名叫沙米尔的人。

He's possibly the only Muslim in town.

他可能是镇上唯一的穆斯林。

In response, drivers made obscene hand gestures, called me a freak, and this same car whipped past three times to splash as much rain water on me as possible.

作为回应，司机们做出了猥亵的手势，称我为怪胎，而这辆汽车又快速地驶过三趟，尽可能多地将雨水泼到我身上。

I'm here to refute anyone who believes that we don't need this kind of resolution, because we don't have these kind of problems in Homer.

我来这里是为了反驳任何认为我们不需要这种解决方案的人，因为我们在荷马身上没有这类问题。

Let me assure you that we do.

让我向你保证我们会这样做。

The resolution was voted down, but it didn't stop there.

该决议被否决，但事情并没有就此结束。

After that, there was a recall election which failed.

此后，罢免选举失败。

That whole email scandal.

整个电子邮件丑闻。

The ACLU got involved with a lawsuit against the city.

美国公民自由联盟卷入了针对该市的诉讼。

OK, so here's what I'm getting from this.

好的，这就是我从中得到的结果。

People are really mad at each other and they are not stopping this conflict, and it is all about immigration.

人们真的互相生气，他们没有阻止这场冲突，而这一切都与移民有关。

In this town that doesn't actually have an immigration problem.

在这个小镇上实际上不存在移民问题。

Exactly.

确切地。

And actually, you know, I pointed this out to people in Homer as I talked to them.

事实上，你知道，我在与《荷马史诗》中的人们交谈时向他们指出了这一点。

And you know, I get all sorts of different reactions.

你知道，我得到了各种不同的反应。

Like some people definitely saw the absurdity in it.

就像有些人肯定看到了其中的荒谬之处。

Some people thought it wasn't crazy to think that if that resolution was passed, or if Homer somehow became a sanctuary city, they thought, sure, undocumented immigrants or refugees could totally start coming here.

有些人认为，如果该决议获得通过，或者如果荷马以某种方式成为庇护城市，他们认为，无证移民或难民完全可以开始来到这里，这并不疯狂。

And then plenty-- you know, a lot of people told me like, yeah, this is not a fight, actually, over immigration.

然后很多人告诉我，是的，这实际上不是一场关于移民的斗争。

It's over something bigger.

更大的事情已经结束了。

And I talked to this one woman, Hannah.

我和一位女士交谈过，汉娜。

She's a boat captain.

她是一名船长。

She put it, I don't know-- I thought the best of anybody.

她说，我不知道——我认为任何人都是最好的。

She said this.

她这么说。

It's like we're acting out this play that reflects our deepest anxieties, but none of it's based on anything real.

就像我们正在表演的这部戏反映了我们最深的焦虑，但它没有任何真实的基础。

It's based on what-ifs.

它基于假设。

It's based on I don't think the same way as you.

这是因为我和你的想法不一样。

Things that could happen, things that have happened in other places, fear.

可能发生的事情，其他地方已经发生的事情，恐惧。

And the fear of something becoming real.

以及对某件事成为现实的恐惧。

But none of it is based on things that are actually happening here.

但这些都不是基于这里实际发生的事情。

Right now, all over this country, lots of people are wary of immigrants, wanting something done about immigrants, they're fearful of immigrants, whether or not there are immigrants in their lives.

现在，在这个国家，很多人都对移民持谨慎态度，希望对移民采取一些措施，他们害怕移民，无论他们的生活中是否有移民。

Today on our program, we have stories of two places where people got really upset about immigrants, even though immigration did not seem like it was the most important thing there going on at all.

今天在我们的节目中，我们有两个地方的故事，人们对移民感到非常不安，尽管移民似乎根本不是那里正在发生的最重要的事情。

One of these places is Homer, a small town that is about as remote as you can get-- as you've heard-- with almost no immigrants.

荷马就是其中之一，这是一个小镇，正如您所听说的那样，是一个非常偏远的小镇，几乎没有移民。

The other one's in the suburbs, in the densely developed east coast-- Rockville, Maryland, with lots of immigrants, documented and undocumented.

另一个位于郊区，在人口稠密的东海岸——马里兰州罗克维尔，这里有大量移民，有证件的和无证的。

And what's interesting in both places is that we see why people's feelings on this issue just spiraled bigger, and bigger, and bigger, beyond the facts at hand.

有趣的是，在这两个地方，我们看到了为什么人们在这个问题上的感受越来越强烈，超出了现有的事实。

From WBEZ in Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Fear.

第一幕，恐惧。

So Brian spent some time in Homer, Alaska talking to all kinds of people involved in this debate that the town has been having over whether it should welcome immigrants or not.

因此，布莱恩在阿拉斯加荷马度过了一段时间，与参与该镇是否应该欢迎移民辩论的各种人士进行了交谈。

And he became especially interested in this one guy.

他对这个家伙特别感兴趣。

I found this guy, because he testified at that Homer City Council meeting, the one where everyone was so upset.

我找到了这个人，因为他在荷马市议会会议上作证，那场会议让每个人都感到非常不安。

I spoke to lots of people who attended the meeting, or listened to it.

我和很多出席会议或听过会议的人交谈过。

What everyone had in common was that they all seemed so sure of their sides, like of course I support the ideas in this resolution, or of course I don't.

每个人的共同点是，他们似乎都对自己的立场非常确定，就像我当然支持这项决议中的想法，或者我当然不支持。

Know one sounded uncertain about it.

知道有人对此感到不确定。

Until I met this guy.

直到我遇到了这个人。

Believe it or not, I'm kind of an emotional person.

不管你信不信，我是一个情绪化的人。

When I see people in conflict with each other, it just kind of upsets me, and I'd really rather not deal with it, so I don't have to take any more antacids.

当我看到人们互相冲突时，这让我有点不安，我真的不想处理它，所以我不必再服用任何抗酸剂。

This is Ben Tyrer, who generally avoids politics and news for that very reason.

这是本·泰勒（Ben Tyrer），因此他通常回避政治和新闻。

News stresses me out, if we're being honest.

老实说，新闻让我压力很大。

Ben Tyrer, jazz musician and janitor at Kenai Peninsula College, and to me, the most interesting person in town, because he's the only person I met who seemed to actually be struggling to figure out what side to be on.

本·泰勒（Ben Tyrer）是基奈半岛学院的爵士音乐家和看门人，对我来说，他是镇上最有趣的人，因为他是我遇到的唯一一个似乎真正在努力弄清楚自己应该站在哪一边的人。

Ben was born and raised in Homer.

本在荷马出生和长大。

Now he's 27, married, with a two-year-old daughter, which has given him a talent for dad humor that's ahead of his years.

现在他 27 岁了，已婚，有一个两岁的女儿，这让他拥有超乎同龄人的父亲幽默天赋。

My favorite joke from his Facebook page-- "What comes after Colin Firth?

我最喜欢他 Facebook 页面上的笑话——“科林·费斯之后会发生什么？

Colin Thecond." When all these people in Homer were suddenly up in arms over whether to welcome immigrants, Ben didn't want to jump to any unfair conclusions.

科林·塞康德。”当荷马的所有这些人突然为是否欢迎移民而激烈争论时，本不想仓促得出任何不公平的结论。

I'm not just going to willy-nilly make generalizations about an entire group of people based on my feelings.

我不会随意地根据自己的感受对整个群体做出概括。

We really have to be careful of that kind of thing, because in the past, that has led to some pretty unpleasant consequences.

我们确实必须小心这种事情，因为在过去，这导致了一些非常不愉快的后果。

Before I make a decision like that, I really need to be sure that I am coming from what I consider to be an informed place.

在我做出这样的决定之前，我确实需要确定我来自我认为是消息灵通的地方。

Ben considers himself a moderate.

本认为自己是温和派。

Says he's voted pretty evenly for both parties.

说他对两党的投票相当均匀。

Last year, he was into Bernie Sanders.

去年，他迷上了伯尼·桑德斯。

But when the presidential election came around, he ended up just sitting it out, because he found it too unpleasant.

但当总统选举到来时，他最终只是袖手旁观，因为他觉得这太不愉快了。

He says he never paid attention to immigration as an issue.

他说他从未关注过移民问题。

It was not something that really crossed his mind until the resolution.

在做出决定之前，这并不是他真正想到的事情。

It was all over social media, being talked about all around town.

这件事在社交媒体上疯传，全城都在谈论。

So he read it.

于是他读了它。

And it scared him.

这让他害怕。

Ben describes the feeling he got as an amorphous blob of fear.

本描述他的感觉是一团无形的恐惧。

That's what crept up inside him.

这就是他内心深处潜藏的东西。

And he immediately thought of this story he'd stumbled across a few weeks before, maybe in his Facebook feed, or just poking around online, about this one attack in Europe.

他立即想到了几周前他偶然发现的这个故事，也许是在他的 Facebook 动态中，或者只是在网上闲逛，关于欧洲的这一次袭击。

Cologne.

科隆。

It was Cologne that happened in Germany, the New Year's thing.

这是发生在德国科隆的新年事件。

It was an incident from New Year's, the year before, 2016, when hundreds of women in Cologne, Germany filed reports with the police saying they'd been sexually assaulted while they were in big crowds during celebrations.

这是前年2016年新年发生的事件，当时德国科隆数百名女性向警方报案称，她们在庆祝活动期间在拥挤的人群中遭到性侵犯。

Many of the women said that the men who'd assaulted them were Arabic speakers and appeared to be from North Africa.

许多女性表示，袭击她们的男子会说阿拉伯语，而且似乎来自北非。

It was a very disturbing event which had shaken Germany, and it shook Ben too.

这是一件非常令人不安的事件，震惊了德国，也震惊了本。

Wow, in Europe?

哇，在欧洲？

Of all places, this is happening in Europe?

在所有地方中，这种情况发生在欧洲吗？

Like I said, I hadn't really been paying attention.

就像我说的，我并没有真正注意。

And it just shocked me.

这让我很震惊。

So you hadn't followed the news through like the attacks in Paris, or the Charlie Hebdo attacks?

所以你没有关注巴黎袭击事件或《查理周刊》袭击事件等新闻？

You just hadn't been watching the news on that stuff?

你只是没有看那些东西的新闻吗？

No. Brian Reed I'm not judging you, I'm just asking.

不，布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed），我不是在评判你，我只是在问你。

No, like I said, no. Brian Reed So that's what was fresh in Ben's mind when he read the resolution-- Cologne.

不，就像我说的，不。布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 因此，当本读到决议时，他脑海中浮现的就是科隆。

And it freaked him out.

这把他吓坏了。

Even though Ben admits that immigration is not exactly the biggest issue in his town, no one is sharpening their knives and thinking of Homer, he tells me.

尽管本承认移民并不是他镇上最大的问题，但他告诉我，没有人磨刀霍霍并想到荷马。

And even though much of the resolution was about fending off discrimination and protecting vulnerable people, things Ben agrees with in principle, when it came to welcoming undocumented immigrants, to Ben it seemed like the city might be opening a door to people who could possibly do harm.

尽管该决议的大部分内容是关于抵制歧视和保护弱势群体，但本原则上同意，但在欢迎无证移民方面，本认为这座城市可能会向可能造成伤害的人敞开大门。

Everyone around him was so riled up about this.

他周围的每个人都为这件事感到愤怒。

It felt irresponsible not to have an informed opinion on it.

对此不发表知情意见感觉是不负责任的。

So Ben started staying up late, night after night, spending hours on the computer long after his wife went to bed, doing something I imagine few of the millions of people who are up late on the internet every night are doing-- researching global migration.

于是，本开始夜复一夜地熬夜，在他妻子上床睡觉后很长一段时间里，他都在电脑上待了几个小时，做着我想象中数百万人每天晚上在互联网上熬夜的人中很少有人在做的事情——研究全球移民。

He doesn't have a printer.

他没有打印机。

So he'd go back and forth to his parents' house, which is right in front of his place, to print out articles and reports.

所以他会往返于他住处前面的父母家，打印文章和报告。

Ben may not be a big news guy, but he does like to research.

本可能不是一个大新闻人物，但他确实喜欢研究。

He's been slowly building the house he and his family now live in, pretty much singlehandedly, with no experience in construction, based largely off research he's done online.

他一直在慢慢地建造他和他的家人现在居住的房子，几乎是单枪匹马，没有建筑经验，主要基于他在网上所做的研究。

So he figured he could take those research skills and apply them to this question of whether immigration is a good thing for a place to encourage or bad.

因此，他认为他可以利用这些研究技能并将其应用于这个问题：移民对于一个地方来说是好事还是坏事。

And did you feel like you had an open mind about it?

你觉得你对此持开放态度吗？

Did you feel like--

你有没有感觉——

If we're being honest, I didn't have an open mind about it.

老实说，我对此没有开放的态度。

But I knew that, and I knew that that's not a good thing to have if you are trying to have an actual view of what's going on in the world instead of just what you want to have going on in the world.

但我知道这一点，而且我知道，如果你试图对世界上正在发生的事情有一个实际的看法，而不仅仅是你想要世界上发生的事情，那么这并不是一件好事。

So I kind of took it upon myself to question-- actually question-- everything that I think.

所以我有点主动去质疑——实际上是质疑——我所想的一切。

Ben set out to do something many of us believe we've done in our own lives, but I think, if we're being honest, rarely actually have.

本打算做一些我们许多人认为我们在自己的生活中做过的事情，但我认为，如果我们说实话，实际上很少这样做。

He set out to do what a good citizen in a democracy is supposed to do-- delve into the facts, aware of your preconceptions, but with as much of an open mind as possible and form a knowledgeable opinion based on the evidence.

他开始做一个民主国家的好公民应该做的事情——深入研究事实，了解自己的先入之见，但要尽可能保持开放的心态，并根据证据形成有见识的意见。

And when he did that, it took him to a place that really surprised him, and made him question how he views the world.

当他这样做时，他到达了一个真正令他惊讶的地方，并让他质疑自己如何看待世界。

Ben opens his laptop and tries to replicate for me best he can remember how he began.

本打开他的笔记本电脑，试图为我复制他能记得的最好的内容。

He started with a simple Google search-- something like "What's the refugee situation in Europe?"

他从简单的谷歌搜索开始——比如“欧洲的难民情况如何？”

Migrant crisis-- migration to Europe explained in seven charts.

移民危机——七张图表解释了向欧洲移民的情况。

The EU and the refugee crisis.

欧盟和难民危机。

They like to use the word crisis a lot, which was kind of a red flag.

他们经常使用危机这个词，这是一个危险信号。

And before he knew it, he was down a rabbit hole of frightening stories-- stories about "no go zones" outside Paris.

在他意识到这一点之前，他已经陷入了一个充满可怕故事的兔子洞——关于巴黎郊外“禁区”的故事。

Immigrant neighborhoods, where native French people supposedly could no longer enter.

移民社区，据说法国本土人再也无法进入。

He bumped into more stories about the sexual assaults in Cologne.

他偶然发现了更多有关科隆性侵犯的故事。

Watching and reading all this stuff, late at night, in the dark Alaskan winter, trying to forge an understanding of a place very far away that Ben has never been-- Europe-- and of people from even further away than that, that he has never met, Ben felt upset and worried.

在深夜，在阿拉斯加黑暗的冬天，看着和阅读所有这些东西，试图加深对本从未去过的遥远地方——欧洲——以及来自比那更远、他从未见过的人们的了解，本感到沮丧和担忧。

But also not entirely sure whether he could trust the information he was getting.

但也不完全确定他是否可以相信他所获得的信息。

The immediate gut reaction was, that's awful.

我的第一反应是，这太糟糕了。

But it's also like, OK, they're using these specifically to get that gut reaction out of people, to really get people to one side.

但也就像，好吧，他们专门利用这些来激发人们的本能反应，真正让人们站在一边。

You've got that kind of sub-narrative or something going on in your head, or sub commentary as you're reading through this stuff?

当你阅读这些内容时，你的脑海中是否有这样的子叙述或某些事情，或者子评论？

Where's this coming from?

这是从哪里来的？

What's the agenda of it?

其议程是什么？

Exactly.

确切地。

Who is benefiting from me seeing this?

我看到这个对谁有利？

Is it purely altruistic?

是纯粹的利他主义吗？

Or is there something else going on?

还是还有其他事情发生？

So Ben sought out information from other perspectives.

因此本从其他角度寻找信息。

He watched interviews with refugees and asylum seekers, telling their stories firsthand, of fleeing persecution or war in their home countries and embarking on harrowing journeys to Europe.

他观看了对难民和寻求庇护者的采访，讲述他们逃离祖国的迫害或战争并踏上前往欧洲的痛苦旅程的第一手故事。

This guy, he seems like a nice guy who was just trying to do the right thing.

这个人，他看起来是一个好人，只是想做正确的事。

You know, I'd be more than willing to help a person like that.

你知道，我非常愿意帮助这样的人。

He's a very brave man.

他是一个非常勇敢的人。

But then he'd feel unsure about that stuff too.

但随后他也会对这些事情感到不确定。

If you watch this stuff kind of stuff enough for a long enough period of time, there's almost this paranoid reaction that you get.

如果你在足够长的时间内观看这些东西，你几乎会得到这种偏执的反应。

Is this real?

这是真的吗？

Is this staged?

这是上演的吗？

It's a really dark, strange place you get to in your own head when you watch enough of these.

当你看够这些之后，你的脑海里就会发现这是一个非常黑暗、奇怪的地方。

Remember, Ben was new to news.

请记住，本是新闻新手。

I was basically a baby learning to walk, he tells me.

他告诉我，我基本上是一个学习走路的婴儿。

His understanding was that publications like The New York Times and The Washington Post had a bad rap, so he didn't really spend too much time there.

他的理解是，像《纽约时报》和《华盛顿邮报》这样的出版物名声不好，所以他并没有在那里花太多时间。

He would go to a site like the BBC, but worried maybe they were giving him a liberal bent.

他会访问像 BBC 这样的网站，但担心他们可能会给他带来自由主义倾向。

So then he'd go to a site like this conservative Canadian one he found, The Rebel.

然后他就会去一个类似他发现的加拿大保守网站“The Rebel”的网站。

But he knew he couldn't fully trust that either.

但他知道他也不能完全相信这一点。

The whole experience was head spinning.

整个经历让人头晕目眩。

So he started digging up primary sources as well.

因此，他也开始挖掘主要来源。

He's got a bunch of papers that he's printed out for me, documents and reports that he's compiled.

他有一堆为我打印的文件、他整理的文件和报告。

He went to Cornell Law School's website to read up on immigration law, trying to figure out if sanctuary cities were legal.

他访问康奈尔法学院的网站阅读移民法，试图弄清楚庇护城市是否合法。

He determined that they were not.

他断定他们不是。

He also pulled crime stats directly from the German Ministry of the Interior.

他还直接从德国内政部获取犯罪统计数据。

He did that after reading this one article which he shows me with the headline, "Report, Migrants Committing Disproportionately High Crime in Germany."

他在读完这篇文章后就这么做了，他给我看了这篇标题为“报告，德国移民犯下不成比例的高犯罪率”的文章。

What source is that from?

那是从什么来源来的呢？

Ben Tyrer This is-- oh, Breitbart.

本·泰勒 这是——哦，布赖特巴特新闻网。

Breitbart, the right wing nationalist site formerly run by Donald Trump's chief strategist, Steve Bannon, which is proudly anti-immigration.

布赖特巴特新闻网 (Breitbart) 是一个右翼民族主义网站，以前由唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump) 的首席策略师史蒂夫·班农 (Steve Bannon) 运营，该网站以反移民为傲。

The article states that crime rates would have remained static in Germany if not for migrants coming in-- that the country recorded an extra 402,000 crimes by immigrants since 2014.

文章指出，如果没有移民的到来，德国的犯罪率将保持不变——自 2014 年以来，德国记录的移民犯罪案件增加了 402,000 起。

How do you feel about Breitbart?

您对布赖特巴特新闻网感觉如何？

I mean, that's a place people have a lot of feelings about, in terms of as a news source.

我的意思是，就新闻来源而言，这是一个人们有很多感受的地方。

I'm curious what you feel?

我很好奇你的感受是什么？

Yeah.

是的。

If I had only used Breitbart, I would have been a little bit more suspicious.

如果我只使用布赖特巴特新闻网，我会更加怀疑。

Ben says he went to the website for Germany's interior ministry specifically to fact check this article's claims that crime by immigrants has increased dramatically.

本说，他专门访问了德国内政部的网站，以核实这篇文章中关于移民犯罪急剧增加的说法。

He also has this other document that he discovered online, which he says put him over the edge in terms of making his decision.

他还有在网上发现的另一份文件，他说这让他在做出决定时陷入了困境。

Let's see, what is this?

我们看看，这是什么？

Gatestone Institute.

门石研究所。

It's a long report by a think tank I've never heard of called the Gatestone Institute, titled The Islamization of Germany, listing crimes and bad acts, supposedly committed by migrants, and specifically Muslims, in the country.

这是一份由我从未听说过的智囊机构 Gatestone Institute 撰写的长篇报告，题为《德国的伊斯兰化》，列出了据称是移民（尤其是穆斯林）在该国犯下的犯罪和不良行为。

It goes nearly day by day through 2016, enumerating ugly incident after ugly incident of flashings, stabbings, shootings, sexual assaults.

2016年几乎每一天都在发生，列举了一个又一个丑陋的事件，包括闪光、刺伤、枪击、性侵犯。

I mean, the first one right off the list is just January 1st, mobs of Muslim men of "Arabic or North African origin" sexually assaulted hundreds of women in Cologne and other German cities.

我的意思是，名单上的第一个事件是 1 月 1 日，“阿拉伯或北非血统”的穆斯林男子暴徒在科隆和其他德国城市对数百名妇女进行了性侵犯。

Again, the Cologne attacks, which had set Ben off on this journey.

再次，科隆袭击，让本踏上了这次旅程。

Cologne Police Chief Wolfgang Albers called it a completely new dimension of crime.

科隆警察局长沃尔夫冈·阿尔伯斯称其为犯罪的全新维度。

And that's just the first one on the list.

这只是列表中的第一个。

There are 19 pages here of stuff like that.

这里有 19 页类似的内容。

Mmm.

嗯。

Wait, why the "mmm"?

等等，为什么是“嗯”？

Or whatever noise you just made.

或者你刚刚发出的任何噪音。

Well, I haven't really gone through a lot of this information since I used it, and kind of going back through it again, it's kind of-- it's making me a little bit, you know, uneasy, a little bit upset.

嗯，自从我使用它以来，我还没有真正浏览过很多这些信息，并且再次回顾它，这让我有点，你知道，不安，有点沮丧。

Trying to keep it under wraps, but--

试图保守秘密，但是——

Right now, you're feeling upset and trying to, like, tamp it down.

现在，你感到心烦意乱，并试图压制它。

A little bit, yeah.

一点点，是的。

Brian Reed Because you feel like you're feeling something ugly.

布莱恩·里德 因为你感觉自己感觉有些丑陋。

When you read this stuff, you feel something ugly.

当你读到这些东西时，你会觉得有些丑陋。

Yeah, And I don't like it.

是的，而且我不喜欢它。

Like I said, I've read a lot--

就像我说的，我读了很多书——

Do you feel scared of people based on their ethnicity or background?

您是否因为种族或背景而害怕人们？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, it's kind of an age-old conflict between your brain and your heart.

我的意思是，这是大脑和心灵之间由来已久的冲突。

My brain is telling me to at least be cautious, to really keep an eye on this, and to keep an eye on-- to keep an eye on them, for lack of a better sentiment.

我的大脑告诉我至少要谨慎，要真正关注这一点，并关注——关注他们，因为缺乏更好的情绪。

And then there's my heart that says, these are people too.

然后我的心说，这些也是人。

I mean, if the shoe was on the other foot, if the United States was a third world, war torn country, I would do whatever it took to get my family out of here, legally or illegally.

我的意思是，如果换句话说，如果美国是一个饱受战争蹂躏的第三世界国家，我会尽一切努力让我的家人离开这里，无论是合法还是非法。

Like it really-- he was, like, really torn up.

真的很喜欢——他真的很伤心。

Ben's wife, Hope, said she was not prepared for how emotional this decision would become.

本的妻子霍普表示，她没有准备好这个决定会变得如此情绪化。

It was an intense week.

这是紧张的一周。

Brian Reed Was it really?

布莱恩·里德 真的吗？

Yeah, it was.

是的，确实如此。

Ben Tyrer Hope and Ben have known each other for seven years.

本·泰勒·霍普和本已经认识七年了。

They've been married for three.

他们已经结婚三年了。

And she says it's up there among the most intense things they've gone through as a couple, close to having a baby and building a house.

她说，这是他们作为夫妻经历过的最激烈的事情之一，接近生孩子和盖房子。

Immigration into Homer.

移民荷马。

It took them both aback.

这让他们两人都吃了一惊。

Finally, after about a week of reading, and searching, and thinking, and talking it through, Ben arrived at a conclusion.

最后，经过大约一周的阅读、搜索、思考和讨论，本得出了一个结论。

He decided that he was opposed to the resolution.

他决定反对该决议。

I prefer to air on the side of caution in this case.

在这种情况下，我宁愿谨慎行事。

At this specific time in history, I believe a certain amount of caution is warranted.

在历史上的这个特定时刻，我认为有必要保持一定程度的谨慎。

And then, he also decided-- Ben Tyrer I was going to bring it before the council.

然后，他还决定——本·泰勒（Ben Tyrer）将把它提交给理事会。

Microphones are already on.

麦克风已经打开。

State your name.

说出你的名字。

My name is Ben Tyrer.

我叫本·泰尔。

Council Member Hello, Ben.

理事会成员 你好，本。

Welcome.

欢迎。

You'll have to excuse me.

你得原谅我。

I just got off work a little while ago.

我刚下班不久。

I don't know what all's been covered here.

我不知道这里都涵盖了什么。

Ben got to the February council meeting near the end.

本在二月份的理事会会议即将结束时参加了会议。

He'd had to work late at the college, where he's a janitor, right next door.

他不得不在隔壁的大学里工作到很晚，他在那里担任看门人。

He says he pumped himself up to speak while he was mopping bathrooms.

他说，他一边擦浴室一边打起精神来说话。

When he got to town hall, the public had been speaking for more than three hours.

当他到达市政厅时，公众已经演讲了三个多小时。

The council members were exhausted.

理事会成员都筋疲力尽了。

The place was still packed.

这个地方仍然挤满了人。

He was the last person to address the council.

他是最后一个向理事会发表讲话的人。

I don't necessarily think-- what we have to consider is what these people will be-- you know what, I'm not going to talk with emotion anymore.

我不一定认为——我们必须考虑的是这些人会是什么样——你知道吗，我不会再带着情感谈论了。

I'm just going to read a few of these things that I've brought with me, because I think facts outweigh emotion.

我只想读一些我带来的东西，因为我认为事实胜过情感。

This is from Breitbart.

这是来自布赖特巴特新闻网。

I found it on The Drudge Report web site.

我在《德拉吉报告》网站上找到了它。

"A massive migrant crime wave is surging across Germany."

“大规模的移民犯罪浪潮正在德国各地兴起。”

I wanted to just present something a little bit more solid.

我只是想展示一些更扎实的东西。

I didn't necessarily want to just go in and say this is good or this is bad.

我不一定想直接说这是好是坏。

I just wanted to present information to the people listening and to the council.

我只是想向听众和理事会提供信息。

And I brought copies of all the stuff that I have here.

我带来了我这里所有东西的副本。

The data reveals that without migrants considered, crime rate in Germany would have remained roughly static since 2014...

数据显示，如果不考虑移民，德国的犯罪率自 2014 年以来将大致保持不变......

Ben read what he could from his research.

本从他的研究中读到了他能读到的内容。

And then, before he knew it, his three minute time limit was up.

然后，在他意识到之前，他的三分钟时间限制就到了。

The womans rights minister declared there are now areas in our country where women can no longer go...

妇女权利部长宣布，现在我国有些地区妇女不能再去......

The mayor cut him off.

市长打断了他的话。

Mayor If you would like to leave any of the material with the clerk, she'd be happy to enter those into the public record for what you weren't allowed to finish there.

市长 如果您想将任何材料留给书记员，她会很乐意将这些材料输入公共记录，以记录您不允许完成的内容。

Anybody else from the community that would like to come forward?

社区中还有其他人愿意挺身而出吗？

After the meeting, Ben got in this car.

会议结束后，本坐上了这辆车。

He'd done what he set out to do.

他已经完成了他打算做的事情。

But as he drove home, he realized, he still felt very mixed up about it.

但当他开车回家时，他意识到，他仍然对此感到非常困惑。

Honestly, after I came home that night, I was so torn up about the decision, I was actually crying a little bit.

老实说，那天晚上我回到家后，我对这个决定感到非常伤心，我实际上哭了一点。

Why were you crying?

你为什么哭？

Ben Tyrer Believe it or not, it kind of changed my world view a little bit.

本·泰尔（Ben Tyrer）不管你信不信，它稍微改变了我的世界观。

Because honestly, I have this part of me that I want everybody to get along, and I want all of us to be together, and just-- I don't think it's realistic necessarily.

因为老实说，我的这一部分希望每个人都能和睦相处，我希望我们所有人都能在一起，只是——我认为这不一定是现实的。

But the utopian ideal.

但乌托邦式的理想。

I just want us all to-- we are the world, kumbaya, holding hands.

我只是希望我们所有人——我们就是整个世界，kumbaya，手牵着手。

And the fact that I was making a decision to kind of crack down on a certain group of people really tore me up, bad.

事实上，我决定镇压某一群人，这真的让我很伤心，很糟糕。

This hope in everybody, that eventually we'll all just kind of get along.

每个人都希望我们最终都能和睦相处。

I don't know if it's possible.

我不知道是否可能。

And it's just kind of sad, really.

这真的有点悲伤。

What did you say to your wife when you came home?

你回家后对你妻子说了什么？

I just asked her do you think I did the right thing?

我只是问她你觉得我做的对吗？

He was saying, you know-- was this the right thing to do?

他说，你知道——这是正确的做法吗？

Was this the right decision?

这是正确的决定吗？

It was an interesting night.

这是一个有趣的夜晚。

We were up late that night.

那天晚上我们睡得很晚。

Yeah, little bit.

是的，一点点。

I think that was maybe the third time I've ever seen Ben cry.

我想这可能是我第三次看到本哭了。

Yeah, he doesn't cry.

是的，他不哭。

So, I knew it was a very serious thing for him.

所以，我知道这对他来说是一件非常严重的事情。

One day, as I was leaving one of my interviews with Ben, he was giving me the articles and reports he'd printed out.

有一天，当我结束对本的一次采访时，他给了我他打印出来的文章和报告。

I would love to take this stuff.

我很想拿走这个东西。

Did you want to-- Brian Reed I would love it.

你想要吗——布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 我会喜欢的。

And then he said this.

然后他说了这句话。

I would love for you to tell me that I'm wrong.

我希望你能告诉我我错了。

If you can read this stuff and tell me that I'm wrong, I would love that.

如果你能读到这篇文章并告诉我我错了，我会很高兴的。

Really?

真的吗？

Ben Tyrer Yeah, because, man, I don't like thinking this way about people.

本·泰勒：是的，因为，伙计，我不喜欢这样思考别人。

OK, well I can do that.

好的，我可以做到。

Like I could-- well, I can try.

就像我可以的那样——好吧，我可以尝试。

Maybe I'll go home after my trip here and see if we can fact check some of the stuff.

也许我会在旅行结束后回家看看我们是否可以核实一些东西。

Good morning, Ben.

早上好，本。

Good evening for you.

你晚上好。

How are you doing?

你好吗？

I am quite well.

我很好。

How are you doing, sir?

先生，你好吗？

Because of his research, Ben now had this whole new view of reality that was making him kind of miserable.

由于他的研究，本现在对现实有了全新的看法，这让他有点痛苦。

And he still had doubts and questions.

而他心里仍然有疑惑和疑问。

So it seemed worth double checking what he'd learned.

因此，似乎值得仔细检查他所学到的东西。

I've never been to Germany.

我从未去过德国。

I'm not an expert on the migration situation in Europe.

我不是欧洲移民情况的专家。

So a few weeks after I met Ben in Homer, I arranged for him to have a conversation with someone who is-- someone who's actually in the place Ben was looking to-- to try to understand the impacts immigration can have.

因此，在我在荷马遇到本几周后，我安排他与一个真正位于本所寻求的地方的人进行对话，试图了解移民可能产生的影响。

Damien McGuinness, a BBC correspondent in Berlin.

达米安·麦吉尼斯 (Damien McGuinness)，BBC 驻柏林记者。

He spent 14 years reporting in Germany, and one of his main focuses in the last several years has been the influx of migrants into the country.

他在德国进行了 14 年的报道，过去几年他的主要关注点之一是移民涌入该国。

I know the BBC was one of the sources Ben wasn't sure if he could trust, because it might have a liberal bent.

我知道 BBC 是本不确定他是否可以信任的消息来源之一，因为它可能有自由主义倾向。

So I asked him if he believed Damien.

所以我问他是否相信达米安。

And he said he'd definitely be looking up what he said afterwards, fact checking the fact checking.

他说他事后肯定会查阅他所说的话，进行事实核查。

But he seemed to take seriously that Damien lives in Germany, and has reported a lot on these issues.

但他似乎很重视达米安住在德国，并就这些问题进行了很多报道。

So Damien went into a studio in Berlin, and Ben went into one in Homer.

于是达米安走进了柏林的一间工作室，而本则走进了荷马的一间工作室。

We're very far away from each other, so it's a pleasure to talk to you on the other side of the world.

我们相距很远，所以很高兴能在世界的另一边与您交谈。

You know, I'm just a small town boy.

你知道，我只是一个小镇男孩。

This is the craziest thing that's ever happened to me.

这是我经历过的最疯狂的事情。

I sent Damien all the research Ben had given me beforehand-- the articles and reports and statistics he compiled.

我把本事先给我的所有研究资料发给了达米安——他整理的文章、报告和统计数据。

Damien reviewed it, and then we went through it all together.

达米安审阅了它，然后我们一起经历了这一切。

So the first thing I thought we'd talk about is the sexual assaults in Cologne.

所以我想我们首先要讨论的是科隆的性侵犯事件。

This was the New Year's incident that Ben kept encountering again and again in his research.

这就是Ben在研究中不断遇到的新年事件。

He'd read and seen that lots of women have been sexually assaulted by Arab men.

他读到并看到许多女性遭到阿拉伯男性的性侵犯。

After I met Ben, I read up on this.

遇见本后，我读到了这方面的内容。

And if we're being honest, I found the numbers that were being reported hard to believe.

老实说，我发现所报道的数字令人难以置信。

The Washington Post and others wrote about more than 1,000 women, primarily in Cologne, but also other German cities, being assaulted by upwards of 2,000 men, according to some reports.

据一些报道，《华盛顿邮报》和其他媒体报道了 1,000 多名女性（主要在科隆，但也有德国其他城市）遭到超过 2,000 名男性的袭击。

Men who were largely migrants.

男性主要是移民。

I didn't understand if the assaults were coordinated or more like a spontaneous mob.

我不明白这些袭击是有组织的还是更像是自发的暴徒。

Plus, there were headlines on sites like Breitbart, such as "New Year Rape Horror" and "Rape-fugees Not Welcome." I just wasn't sure what to think.

此外，布赖特巴特新闻网（Breitbart）等网站上还出现了诸如“新年强奸恐怖事件”和“不欢迎强奸逃亡者”之类的头条新闻。我只是不知道该怎么想。

But Damien explained these attacks were real.

但达米安解释说这些袭击是真实的。

They happened.

他们发生了。

He reported on them.

他报告了他们的情况。

There were in fact about 1,000 criminal complaints filed with Cologne Police, about half of those for various levels of sexual assault, including allegations of rape.

事实上，科隆警方收到了大约 1,000 起刑事投诉，其中大约一半是针对不同程度的性侵犯，包括强奸指控。

The other half include theft of purses and phones, and other violence too.

另一半包括盗窃钱包和手机，以及其他暴力行为。

There are terrifying accounts of women being surrounded and attacked by men.

有一些关于女性被男性包围和袭击的可怕报道。

Damien thinks it's important to understand the pandemonium in German city centers on New Year's Eve, which he says is unlike public parties elsewhere in Europe.

达米安认为了解德国市中心除夕夜的混乱情况很重要，他说这与欧洲其他地方的公共聚会不同。

There are huge masses of people.

有大量的人。

It's dark.

天黑了。

People were setting off fireworks in the crowd.

人们在人群中燃放烟花。

Damien says what occurred was somewhere between a wild drunken party and a riot that police couldn't control.

达米安说，发生的事情介于一场疯狂的醉酒派对和一场警察无法控制的骚乱之间。

And the drunkenness on the streets is of a level I don't think you'd really see in the states.

街上的醉酒程度我认为在美国是看不到的。

And it's not to minimize the trauma that these women underwent, or to say it's any less shocking.

这并不是为了最小化这些女性所遭受的创伤，或者说这不那么令人震惊。

But it goes to explain why the police found it hard to control, and helps explain why then criminal elements took advantage of that to do something appalling.

但这足以解释为什么警方难以控制，也有助于解释为什么犯罪分子利用这一点做出了令人震惊的事情。

It makes it seem less crazy.

这让它看起来不那么疯狂。

Most of the suspects were identified.

大多数嫌疑人的身份已被确认。

About 150 men, were immigrants and asylum seekers, particularly from North African countries.

大约 150 名男性是移民和寻求庇护者，尤其是来自北非国家的移民和寻求庇护者。

There are accounts from people who were there of many more men being involved.

据现场人士称，还有更多男子参与其中。

So what Ben saw about Cologne, while it was sensationalized with words like rape-fugees, was, for the most part, true.

因此，本在科隆的所见所闻，虽然用强奸逃亡者之类的词来耸人听闻，但在很大程度上是真实的。

Next, Ben and Damien and I looked at one of the Breitbart articles that made a big impression on Ben.

接下来，本、达米恩和我看了一篇布莱巴特新闻网的文章，这篇文章给本留下了深刻的印象。

It starts, quote, "A massive migrant crime wave is surging across Germany," end quote, citing a report from the interior ministry that's over 100 pages long and entirely in German.

文章开头引用了“一场大规模的移民犯罪浪潮正在席卷整个德国”，结尾引用了一份来自内政部的报告，该报告长达 100 多页，且完全是德文。

The article says Germany recorded roughly 402,000 crimes committed by migrants in 2015.

文章称，2015年德国记录了大约40.2万起移民犯罪事件。

Damien read the underlying report, and he says that 402,000 number--

达米安读了底层报告，他说 402,000 这个数字——

That is correct.

这是正确的。

That's a correct figure.

这是一个正确的数字。

Except-- Damien Mcguinness This 400,000 figure is actually including the crime of crossing the border as an asylum seeker.

除了——达米安·麦坚尼斯（Damien McGuinness），这个40万的数字实际上包括了作为寻求庇护者越境的罪行。

Now by definition, that can only be committed by migrants, and in fact, is how most refugees, by legitimately accepted international law, actually apply for asylum.

现在根据定义，这只能由移民实施，事实上，根据合法接受的国际法，这也是大多数难民实际申请庇护的方式。

Now when you take away that particular criminal act of crossing the border, what you then find is actually-- and the government report very clearly says this-- in fact, the crime rates remained pretty much the same 2015 compared to the year before.

现在，当你去掉特定的越境犯罪行为时，你会发现实际上——政府报告非常清楚地说明了这一点——事实上，2015 年的犯罪率与前一年几乎保持不变。

The Breitbart article does say that many of these crimes were border crimes.

布赖特巴特新闻网的文章确实指出，其中许多犯罪都是边境犯罪。

They don't leave that information out completely.

他们不会完全忽略这些信息。

But in reality, that's all that 400,000 number is-- immigration infractions like border crossing or overstaying a visa.

但实际上，这就是 400,000 的全部数字——移民违规行为，例如越境或签证逾期居留。

It doesn't include any other type of crime.

它不包括任何其他类型的犯罪。

They're using proper statistics, but not putting them in the right context.

他们使用了正确的统计数据，但没有将它们放在正确的背景下。

And then they're using alarmist language like, "A massive migrant crime wave is surging across Germany."

然后他们使用危言耸听的语言，比如“一场大规模的移民犯罪浪潮正在德国席卷而来。”

Wow.

哇。

Brian Reed Did you understand that, Ben, from reading this article?

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed），本，通过阅读这篇文章，您明白了吗？

I didn't get it either.

我也没明白。

I mean, I had to-- I clicked on the link to what they were sourcing, and it's a 135-page report in German.

我的意思是，我必须——我点击了他们所采购内容的链接，这是一份 135 页的德文报告。

And it's a complicated report.

这是一份复杂的报告。

You know, it's a slog to read through.

你知道，读起来很费力。

It's a government report.

这是一份政府报告。

It's not necessarily very clear itself.

它本身不一定很清楚。

So is a migrant crime wave surging across Germany?

那么，移民犯罪浪潮正在席卷德国吗？

Damien tells Ben when you take out those crimes like crossing the border or overstaying a visa, the amount of crime committed by immigrants overall has gone up in the last three years.

达米恩告诉本，当你除去诸如越境或逾期签证等犯罪行为时，移民犯罪的数量在过去三年中总体上有所上升。

It's nearly tripled, from 3-1/2% of all crimes to 9%.

几乎增加了两倍，从所有犯罪的 3-1/2% 增加到 9%。

Granted, that's at the same time that a huge number of immigrants have been coming into Germany, a million and a half people.

诚然，与此同时，大量移民涌入德国，有一百五十万人。

But the increase in immigrant crime still appears to be outstripping that population growth.

但移民犯罪的增长似乎仍然超过了人口的增长。

There are caveats to that too, though.

不过，这也有一些警告。

The German government has cautioned that the research on this is not yet sophisticated enough to draw firm conclusions.

德国政府警告说，对此的研究还不够成熟，无法得出确切的结论。

Also, Damien tells Ben--

另外，达米安告诉本——

A lot of the rising crime committed by migrants was on other migrants.

移民所犯下的犯罪行为中有很多是针对其他移民的。

According to the interior ministry, migrants were responsible for 4.6% of crimes against German victims and 79% of crimes against immigrant victims.

据内政部称，针对德国受害者的犯罪行为中，移民占 4.6%，针对移民受害者的犯罪占 79%。

Ben had this picture in his head from the coverage he read of immigrants coming in and victimizing locals.

本从读到的有关移民涌入并迫害当地人的报道中浮现出这样的画面。

But that's not the reality.

但事实并非如此。

It might sound a bit skeptical to say it, but those crimes are not affecting the German population.

这么说可能有点令人怀疑，但这些罪行并没有影响德国民众。

Plus, Damien points out, it's important to bear in mind the situation in which many of these crimes are committed-- in overcrowded, underserved refugee shelters packed with people, many of whom have been traumatized by war and violence in places like Syria and Iraq.

此外，达米安指出，重要的是要记住许多此类犯罪发生的环境——在人满为患、服务不足的难民收容所里挤满了人，其中许多人在叙利亚和伊拉克等地因战争和暴力而受到创伤。

So without excusing crime, it's clear that these are stressful conditions in which normal people can make bad choices.

因此，在不为犯罪开脱的情况下，很明显，在这些压力条件下，普通人可能会做出错误的选择。

We talked through a few other things Ben found in his research.

我们讨论了本在他的研究中发现的其他一些事情。

I tell him that a French speaking colleague and I spoke to several law enforcement sources in France, and they all said the concept of "no-go zones," immigrant neighborhoods where native French people were supposedly not allowed in, are not real.

我告诉他，我和一位讲法语的同事与法国的几位执法人员进行了交谈，他们都表示“禁区”的概念并不真实，即不允许法国本土人进入的移民社区。

One of them told us it was, quote, "an American invention." And Damien agrees.

其中一个人告诉我们，这是“一项美国发明”。达米安也同意。

He says it's become a bit of a joke in Europe that to Americans, entire cities are no-go zones.

他说，对于美国人来说，整个城市都是禁区，这在欧洲已经成为一个笑话。

Damien also tells Ben about a Breitbart story he had personal experience with from earlier this year, which claimed that a mob of Muslim men had set Germany's oldest church on fire.

达米安还向本讲述了他今年早些时候亲身经历过的布赖特巴特新闻网报道，该报道声称一群穆斯林男子纵火焚烧了德国最古老的教堂。

It included a video of supposed Islamists chanting in the streets nearby and celebrating.

其中包括一段所谓的伊斯兰主义者在附近街道上高喊口号并庆祝的视频。

Damien remembers seeing that story appear on the internet and then trying to run it down with other journalists, only to find that the church was not Germany's oldest.

达米安记得看到这个故事出现在互联网上，然后试图与其他记者一起进行报道，却发现这座教堂并不是德国最古老的教堂。

It had not been set on fire.

它没有被点燃。

A stray firework had briefly ignited some netting on some scaffolding, but that was it.

流散的烟花短暂地点燃了脚手架上的一些网，但仅此而已。

And the men celebrating in the video were not Islamists, but actually anti-Islamist.

视频中庆祝的人不是伊斯兰主义者，而是反伊斯兰主义者。

They were Syrian refugees celebrating a ceasefire in the war back home.

他们是叙利亚难民，庆祝家乡战争停火。

It was something Ben came across in his research and he believed it.

这是本在他的研究中发现的东西，他相信这一点。

So you thought that Islamists burned down Germany's oldest church?

那么您认为伊斯兰主义者烧毁了德国最古老的教堂吗？

Yes, yes I did.

是的，是的，我做到了。

I mean, I had no reason not to.

我的意思是，我没有理由不这样做。

Wow.

哇。

I'm kind of flabbergasted, actually, and more than a little bit angry at this point.

事实上，我有点惊讶，而且此时还有点生气。

And lastly, we come to the document that helped clinch Ben's decision for him-- his decision that he was opposed to the resolution in Homer.

最后，我们来看看帮助本做出决定的文件——他决定反对荷马的决议。

It's that report by the think tank the Gatestone Institute, called The Islamization of Germany, which lists 19 pages of crimes, all linked in some way to Muslims and migrants.

这是智囊团 Gatestone Institute 的一份报告，名为《德国的伊斯兰化》，其中列出了 19 页的犯罪行为，所有犯罪行为都以某种方式与穆斯林和移民有关。

Yeah, I'm flicking through the report now.

是的，我现在正在浏览报告。

And, you know, if I just take one example.

而且，你知道，如果我只举一个例子。

There's a crime on July 22nd, 2016.

2016 年 7 月 22 日发生了一起犯罪事件。

So I'm reading it now.

所以我现在正在读它。

It says Ali Sonboly, you know, Muslim name--

上面写着 Ali Sonboly，你知道，穆斯林名字——

Ali Sonboly, it reads.

阿里·桑博利，上面写着。

Quote, "An 18-year-old Iranian German who harbored hatred for Arabs and Turks killed 10 people, including himself, and wounded 35 others at a McDonald's in Munich." That's the whole entry.

引用：“一名对阿拉伯人和土耳其人怀有仇恨的 18 岁伊朗裔德国人在慕尼黑一家麦当劳杀害了包括他自己在内的 10 人，并打伤了 35 人。”这就是整个条目。

Damien reported on this story as it happened.

达米安报道了这个故事的发生。

And first of all, he tells Ben, when it says Sonboly was, quote, "Iranian-German," he was born to Iranian parents, but in Germany.

首先，他告诉本，当它说桑博利是“伊朗裔德国人”时，他的父母是伊朗人，但出生在德国。

He grew up in Germany, spoke German.

他在德国长大，说德语。

He was German.

他是德国人。

And as for including Sonboly in a report called The Islamization of Germany--

至于将桑博利纳入一份名为《德国伊斯兰化》的报告中——

In fact, it was found later that he had large amounts of neo-Nazi memorabilia.

事实上，后来发现他拥有大量新纳粹纪念品。

He was a great fan of the Norwegian mass murderer Breivik-- you might remember killed all those young people in Norway.

他是挪威大屠杀凶手布雷维克的忠实粉丝——你可能还记得杀害了挪威所有的年轻人。

He was reportedly very proud of having the same birthday as-- I can't remember if it was Adolf Hitler, or if it was the same birthday as Breivik.

据报道，他为与——我不记得是阿道夫·希特勒，还是与布雷维克同一天生日而感到非常自豪。

And he hated foreigners.

而且他讨厌外国人。

Ali Sonboly was not an Islamist.

阿里·桑博利不是伊斯兰主义者。

He was a right wing extremist.

他是一名右翼极端分子。

Most of Sonboly's victims were foreigners.

桑博利的大多数受害者都是外国人。

This should be in a report about anti-foreigner, right wing extremist violence.

这应该出现在一份关于反外国人、右翼极端主义暴力的报告中。

It's in the wrong report.

这是在错误的报告中。

Damien says since 1991, Islamist attacks have caused 14 deaths in Germany.

达米安说，自 1991 年以来，伊斯兰袭击已在德国造成 14 人死亡。

In the same time period, he says, there have been approximately 150 deaths at the hands of right wing extremists in the country.

他说，同一时期内，该国约有 150 人死于右翼极端分子之手。

And according to the government, right wing violence increased dramatically as the big wave of migrants started coming in.

据政府称，随着大批移民开始涌入，右翼暴力急剧增加。

But Ben came across none of this in his research.

但本在他的研究中没有发现这些。

I wondered what Ben was thinking during all this.

我想知道本在这一切过程中在想什么。

And I was surprised to hear him say this.

听到他这么说我很惊讶。

It's definitely making me lean toward the thought that I was wrong.

这肯定让我倾向于认为我错了。

Yes.

是的。

I mean, not through lack of trying.

我的意思是，不是因为缺乏尝试。

But I think I was wrong.

但我想我错了。

He thinks he was wrong in his conclusion that immigration makes places more unsafe.

他认为自己关于移民使地方变得更加不安全的结论是错误的。

Ben meant so well, tried so hard to be skeptical, to be fact based, to find the truth, and still he feels he was led astray.

本的本意是好的，努力保持怀疑态度，以事实为基础，寻找真相，但他仍然觉得自己被引入歧途。

A lot of that he chalks up to him being such a novice to news.

他将这很大程度上归功于自己对新闻的新手。

He says it seems to him that the sources he was reading, like Breitbart and the report from the Gatestone Institute-- which is a right wing think tank, chaired by former U.N.

他说，在他看来，他正在阅读的消息来源，比如布赖特巴特新闻网和门石研究所的报告——门石研究所是一个右翼智囊团，由前联合国秘书长任主席。

Ambassador under George W.

乔治·W·布什任内大使

Bush, John Bolton-- were successful in doing what they were designed to do.

布什、约翰·博尔顿——成功地完成了他们的使命。

Sway him against immigration.

说服他反对移民。

But it's also true that Ben took himself to those sources.

但本确实也曾接触过这些来源。

I think the conclusion I've come to is that I was picking this information.

我认为我得出的结论是我正在选择这些信息。

And part of it was irrational fear.

其中一部分是非理性的恐惧。

I admit that.

我承认这一点。

I wouldn't have put so much time into it if I hadn't been afraid.

如果我没有害怕的话，我不会花这么多时间。

I think the fear just kind of fed on itself.

我认为恐惧只是自我滋生。

I mean, I told you before, I try to be unemotional about this stuff, but the more I think about it, the more I think that I may-- that I was more emotional than I like to let myself believe.

我的意思是，我之前告诉过你，我试着对这些事情保持冷静，但我越想它，我就越认为我可能——我比我想象的更情绪化。

And it skewed my thinking.

它扭曲了我的想法。

Ben was not the only person in Homer who brought up Europe and specifically Germany with me, as we were discussing immigration.

当我们讨论移民问题时，本并不是荷马中唯一一个和我提起欧洲，特别是德国的人。

This is the weird moment the world is in right now, where people at the end of the road in Alaska are examining Germany to decide their feelings on a local city resolution.

现在世界正处于一个奇怪的时刻，阿拉斯加路尽头的人们正在审视德国，以决定他们对当地城市决议的感受。

While Ben does feel he was wrong to fear immigration, he doesn't think he was wrong to encourage his city government to be cautious if it were to invite a lot of immigrants in.

虽然本确实觉得自己担心移民是错误的，但他并不认为自己鼓励市政府在邀请大量移民时保持谨慎的做法是错误的。

He wants to have open arms.

他想要张开双臂。

But he still believes it's important to have a plan in place for everyone's safety.

但他仍然认为，为每个人的安全制定计划非常重要。

And he's still not sure what the right way to do that is.

他仍然不确定正确的方法是什么。

It's a very difficult dichotomy to work through, because I do want to help people, but I'm also afraid of them.

这是一个非常难以解决的二分法，因为我确实想帮助别人，但我也害怕他们。

I'm still trying to figure it out.

我还在想办法。

I'm still trying to marry those two things together.

我仍在尝试将这两件事结合在一起。

Well, you're doing exactly what nations are trying to figure out now, too.

嗯，你们所做的正是各国现在正在努力弄清楚的事情。

How to stay safe and not be afraid, but also help people.

如何保证安全、不害怕，同时还能帮助人们。

Like, that's what Germany seems to be going through, right, Damien?

就像，这就是德国正在经历的事情，对吧，达米安？

Yeah.

是的。

Brian Reed And that's what the US is debating too.

布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 这也是美国正在争论的问题。

Yeah, that's like the question the world's going through right now.

是的，这就像世界现在正在经历的问题。

Brian Reed.

布赖恩·里德.

He's the senior producer of our program and the host of the podcast S-Town, which is about another small town, that one in Alabama.

他是我们节目的高级制作人，也是播客 S-Town 的主持人，该播客讲述的是阿拉巴马州的另一个小镇。

Coming up, we return to the lower 48, to a high school in Maryland, and an incident that even got the president's attention.

接下来，我们回到美国 48 州，马里兰州的一所高中，以及一件甚至引起了总统注意的事件。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

This American Life, from Ira Glass.

《美国生活》，来自艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, "Fear and Loathing in Homer and Rockville." We have two stories of places where people got really scared about immigrants, where immigration did not seem to be the main thing going on.

今天的节目“荷马和罗克维尔的恐惧与厌恶”。我们有两个关于人们非常害怕移民的地方的故事，而移民似乎并不是主要的事情。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Act Two, Loathing.

第二幕，厌恶。

So the first half of our program was about a community that was worried about what might happen, theoretically, if undocumented immigrants arrived.

因此，我们项目的前半部分是关于一个社区，该社区担心理论上，如果无证移民到来可能会发生什么。

This next story happens in a place where they actually already have arrived-- Rockville, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, D.C., where this winter, something actually did happen.

下一个故事发生在他们实际上已经到达的地方——马里兰州罗克维尔，华盛顿特区的郊区，今年冬天，那里确实发生了一些事情。

And the whole community had to deal with it.

整个社区都必须应对它。

Zoe Chace explains.

佐伊·查斯解释道。

Here's the thing that happened.

这就是发生的事情。

A freshman girl in the local high school said she was raped by two undocumented immigrant students.

当地高中的一名新生女孩说，她被两名无证移民学生强奸。

She said it happened at 9:00 on a Thursday morning, in the boys' bathroom at the school.

她说这件事发生在周四早上 9:00，地点是学校的男厕所。

The boys were new students.

男孩们是新学生。

They'd crossed the border separately from El Salvador and Guatemala.

他们分别从萨尔瓦多和危地马拉越过边境。

Jose was 17.

何塞当时17岁。

Henry was 18.

亨利18岁。

The girl was 14.

那女孩14岁。

They were all ninth graders, though.

不过，他们都是九年级学生。

The superintendent of schools, Jack Smith-- was the person who'd have to manage the situation.

学校负责人杰克·史密斯是负责处理这种情况的人。

The police, the parents, the students, the press.

警察、家长、学生、媒体。

I talked to him while he was dealing with all that, back in March.

三月份，当他正在处理这一切时，我和他谈过。

I couldn't understand how it could have happened in a busy high school with 1,500 students and a large staff.

我无法理解这样的事情怎么会发生在一个拥有 1,500 名学生和大量教职员工的繁忙高中。

Felt sick at my stomach.

我感觉胃不舒服。

So I was confused as to what could have happened.

所以我对可能发生的事情感到困惑。

In less than 24 hours, TV trucks were showing up at the school.

不到24小时，电视转播车就出现在学校里。

Local television and radio, mostly.

主要是当地电视和广播。

Parents shocked to learn a 14-year-old girl was allegedly raped by two fellow Rockville High students.

得知一名 14 岁女孩据称被两名罗克维尔高中同学强奸后，家长们感到震惊。

It happened Thursday, around 9:00 AM.

事情发生在周四上午 9:00 左右。

The charging documents describe a horrific ordeal.

指控文件描述了一次可怕的磨难。

The early reporting described the boys as undocumented immigrants.

早期报道将这些男孩描述为无证移民。

And as the days went on, that became the focus of a lot of the coverage-- the boys' immigration status.

随着时间的推移，男孩们的移民身份成为了许多报道的焦点。

Well, good evening, and welcome to Tucker Carlson Tonight.

好吧，晚上好，欢迎今晚来到塔克·卡尔森。

Just days ago, a hideous crime was allegedly committed in the Washington, D.C. suburb of Rockville, Maryland.

就在几天前，据称在华盛顿特区马里兰州罗克维尔郊区发生了一起可怕的犯罪事件。

Fox News covered the case in Rockville every day, the Tucker Carlson show in particular.

福克斯新闻每天都会报道罗克维尔的案件，特别是塔克·卡尔森的节目。

Sanchez is 18 years old and in this country illegally.

桑切斯今年 18 岁，在这个国家非法居留。

But instead of being deported back to his country of origin, he was instead placed in the ninth grade and educated at taxpayer expense.

但他并没有被驱逐回原籍国，而是被安置在九年级，并由纳税人出钱接受教育。

This is insanity, of course.

这当然是疯狂的。

It's a sign of a sick civilization at war with itself.

这是病态文明与自身交战的迹象。

That was the general tone of the coverage on Fox.

这是福克斯新闻报道的总体基调。

This rape allegation is a great example of how terrible our immigration policies are.

这起强奸指控是我们移民政策有多么糟糕的一个很好的例子。

They turned the case into a referendum.

他们将此案变成了全民公投。

You didn't see much coverage of the allegation on other major news networks.

您在其他主要新闻网络上没有看到对该指控的太多报道。

In the week after, it was mentioned only twice on CNN, once in The New York Times.

在接下来的一周内，CNN 只提到了两次，其中一次是在《纽约时报》上。

Local D.C. TV and local papers, like The Washington Post and The Washington Times-- they stayed on it.

华盛顿特区当地电视台和当地报纸，如《华盛顿邮报》和《华盛顿时报》——他们都继续报道。

But Fox News and other online conservative media, they did not skip a day that week.

但福克斯新闻和其他在线保守派媒体在那一周没有跳过一天。

The school superintendent Jack Smith, watched the story take off.

学校负责人杰克·史密斯目睹了这个故事的发展。

We just watched it grow over Friday, Friday night, Saturday, thinking, you know, how do we separate this-- the horrific situation-- from the immigration debate?

我们只是看着它在周五、周五晚上、周六不断发展，我们在想，你知道，我们如何将这种可怕的情况与移民辩论区分开来？

And knowing that we weren't going to be able to.

并且知道我们无法做到。

I mean, you couldn't have lived through the last 18 months in the United States and not have been inundated with the perspectives on those things.

我的意思是，你不可能在美国度过了过去 18 个月而不被对这些事情的观点所淹没。

Jack Smith was named in the coverage as the guy responsible for the schools.

报道称杰克·史密斯是学校的负责人。

And voicemails and emails started pouring into the school district from all over the country with a clear message for him.

语音邮件和电子邮件开始从全国各地涌入学区，向他传达了明确的信息。

01:00 AM.

凌晨 01:00。

Male Caller To Voicemail Yes, hello, to the wonderful school board that hired a Jack Smith.

语音信箱的男性来电者 是的，您好，尊敬的学校董事会雇用了杰克·史密斯。

I'd like to say I'm the father of three young girls that were not raped by illegal aliens.

我想说我是三个没有被非法外国人强奸的年轻女孩的父亲。

Fire this man.

解雇这个人。

And hopefully all the rest of you nitwits at that school board will be fired next for letting illegal aliens in.

希望学校董事会里所有其他的白痴接下来都会因为允许非法外国人入境而被解雇。

Read the constitution.

阅读宪法。

They are illegals.

他们是非法分子。

They should not be in the school system, period.

他们不应该在学校系统中，就这样。

Get it through your heads.

把它通过你的头脑。

They are illegals.

他们是非法分子。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

The President of the United States weighed in, via his spokesman Sean Spicer, at the White House press briefing.

美国总统通过发言人肖恩·斯派塞在白宫新闻发布会上发表了看法。

This is a tragic event.

这是一个悲惨的事件。

And it's horrendous, and horrible, and disgusting, what this young woman in Rockville went through.

这位罗克维尔的年轻女子所经历的一切是可怕的、可怕的、令人厌恶的。

I can't possibly imagine.

我根本无法想象。

So first of all, let's remember the human side of this.

首先，让我们记住人性化的一面。

That this is a tragic event.

这是一个悲惨的事件。

This is why he's passionate about this.

这就是他对此充满热情的原因。

Why Donald Trump is passionate about spotlighting crimes committed by undocumented immigrants.

为什么唐纳德·特朗普热衷于关注无证移民犯下的罪行。

Because people are victims of these crimes.

因为人们是这些罪行的受害者。

Immigration pays its toll on our people if it's done-- if it's not done legally.

如果移民是非法移民，那么移民就会给我们的人民带来损失。

And this is another example.

这是另一个例子。

And it's why the--

这就是为什么——

At this point, the superintendent Jack Smith decides he needs to do a press conference himself.

此时，主管杰克史密斯决定他需要亲自召开新闻发布会。

Suddenly it seems like everyone in the country had this one question for him, which was, why do you allow illegal immigrants at your schools?

突然之间，似乎这个国家的每个人都向他提出了一个问题，那就是，为什么你允许非法移民进入你的学校？

Jack Smith's answer came at that press conference.

杰克·史密斯在那次新闻发布会上给出了答案。

What comes down here is that we serve every student that walks in our door.

归根结底，我们为每一位走进我们门的学生提供服务。

We are a public school system, and we serve all of our students when they come to us.

我们是一个公立学校系统，我们为所有来到我们这里的学生提供服务。

And when we look at that, it is not only the right thing to do, and the good thing to do, and it benefits the students and our community-- it's also the law of the land.

当我们审视这一点时，我们会发现这不仅是正确的事情，也是好事，而且它对学生和我们的社区都有好处——这也是国家的法律。

And it's what--

这就是——

He talks about the Supreme Court case, Plyler v.

他谈到了最高法院的案件：普莱勒诉。

Doe, which says students can't be denied a free public education based on their immigration status.

美国能源部表示，不能因为学生的移民身份而拒绝他们接受免费公共教育。

We don't even know anyone's status, he says, because it's against the law to collect that.

他说，我们甚至不知道任何人的身份，因为收集这些信息是违法的。

We serve every student in front of us.

我们服务于我们面前的每一位学生。

That's it.

就是这样。

Meanwhile, back at Fox, on the second day of Tucker Carlson's nightly coverage of the case, he brought up the superintendent's press conference.

与此同时，回到福克斯，塔克·卡尔森晚间报道此案的第二天，他提到了院长的新闻发布会。

Top officials there don't want to think about the connection illegal immigration might have to this crime or others like it.

那里的高级官员不想考虑非法移民可能与这种犯罪或其他类似犯罪之间的联系。

Montgomery County School Superintendent Jack Smith, for instance, said this.

例如，蒙哥马利县学校校长杰克·史密斯就说过这样的话。

We're not going to paint all students who speak another language, all students of a skin color, all students of a religion, with a broad brush because of a really terrible incident.

我们不会因为一件非常可怕的事件而大肆描绘所有说另一种语言的学生、所有肤色的学生、所有信仰某种宗教的学生。

So I'm saying no tonight.

所以今晚我要说不。

We're going to take care of our students.

我们会照顾我们的学生。

In other words, diversity is our strength, move along, you're racist, shut up.

换句话说，多样性是我们的优势，继续前进，你是种族主义者，闭嘴。

Thanks, Jack.

谢谢，杰克。

Why are people embarrassed to point to something that actually happened and draw obvious conclusions from it?

为什么人们羞于指出实际发生的事情并从中得出明显的结论？

Calls and emails coming into the school district just exploded after this broadcast.

广播结束后，打进学区的电话和电子邮件激增。

I'm calling after seeing the story about opening that meeting, calling people bigots who don't like illegal aliens in their schools.

我是在看到关于召开那次会议的故事后打电话的，称人们是不喜欢学校里非法外国人的偏执狂。

I think you're a [BLEEP] idiot.

我认为你是个[BLEEP]白痴。

And, you know what, this call is indicative of thousands and thousands of other people.

而且，你知道吗，这个电话代表了成千上万的其他人。

I know you don't give a [BLEEP].

我知道你不会发出[BLEEP]声。

People were so mad they mixed up their prejudices into a big stew of things they don't like.

人们非常生气，他们把自己的偏见混入一大堆他们不喜欢的东西中。

I understand that Jack Smith is telling a 14-year-old to be sensitive to the Muslims' needs and not be xenophobic after the Muslims raped a 14-year-old girl.

我理解，在穆斯林强奸了一名 14 岁女孩后，杰克·史密斯告诉一名 14 岁的孩子要对穆斯林的需求保持敏感，不要仇外。

The accused Hispanic boys were not Muslim.

被指控的西班牙裔男孩不是穆斯林。

For this man to come out and call the people that their daughter, who was raped, homophobic, this is ridiculous.

这个男人站出来称人们，他们被强奸的女儿是恐同者，这太荒谬了。

Racist, not homophobic, according to Tucker Carlson.

塔克·卡尔森认为，这是种族主义，而不是恐同症。

The calls coming into the school got threatening.

打进学校的电话充满了威胁。

Someone threatened to shoot every immigrant student in the school.

有人威胁要射杀学校里的所有移民学生。

Someone sent an email saying "I'm going to burn that school down." The school added extra security.

有人发了一封电子邮件说“我要烧毁那所学校。”学校增加了额外的安全保障。

Just like in Homer, Alaska, the place we went in the first half of the show, the conversation about immigration had moved from the real to the totally symbolic.

就像我们在节目前半部分去的阿拉斯加荷马一样，关于移民的讨论已经从真实的变成了完全象征性的。

But their anger wasn't about an imagined hypothetical menace.

但他们的愤怒并不是因为想象中的威胁。

It was about real people, the immigrant students at Rockville High School, and their superintendent.

这是关于真实的人，罗克维尔高中的移民学生和他们的校长。

Again, Jack Smith.

又是杰克·史密斯。

Up until just a day or two ago, I've gotten the ugliest, most hateful, most vile, most sickening emails.

直到一两天前，我收到了最丑陋、最可恨、最卑鄙、最令人作呕的电子邮件。

Some of them name my wife and my five adult children by name, and spell their names right.

他们中的一些人说出了我妻子和我五个成年孩子的名字，并且拼写正确。

Some of them say I know where you live.

他们中的一些人说我知道你住在哪里。

It freaked me out.

这把我吓坏了。

What did your wife say?

你妻子说什么？

Jack Smith She was afraid.

杰克·史密斯 她很害怕。

She was freaked out.

她吓坏了。

And I showed her some of the messages I was getting.

我向她展示了我收到的一些信息。

And she said, I'm sorry we moved here.

她说，很抱歉我们搬到这里了。

I'm sorry you took this job.

我很抱歉你接受了这份工作。

I hate it.

我恨它。

And I said, I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

我说，我知道，对不起，对不起。

Within weeks, the story changed.

几周之内，故事发生了变化。

New evidence came forward.

新的证据出现了。

Text messages, video camera evidence, physical evidence.

短信、摄像机证据、物证。

We have concluded that the facts in this case do not support the original charges filed in this matter.

我们得出的结论是，本案事实不支持本案最初提出的指控。

After a month and a half, the state's attorney decides to drop the rape charges.

一个半月后，州检察官决定撤销强奸指控。

Due to the lack of corroboration and substantial inconsistencies from the facts that we have obtained from multiple sources, the original charges cannot be sustained and prosecution on those charges is untenable.

由于我们从多个来源获得的事实缺乏佐证且存在严重不一致，原来的指控不能成立，对这些指控的起诉也无法成立。

The prosecution couldn't back up the girl's narrative of events.

检方无法支持女孩对事件的叙述。

She said she was forced into the bathroom.

她说她被强迫进入浴室。

But that wasn't backed up on the videotape from the hallway.

但走廊里的录像带并没有证实这一点。

She said she didn't know the boys.

她说她不认识那两个男孩。

But she had been sexting with one of them the night before.

但前一天晚上她一直在和其中一个人发色情短信。

The texts showed they planned to meet in the bathroom.

短信显示他们计划在浴室见面。

I cannot tell you if this girl was raped.

我无法告诉你这个女孩是否被强奸了。

All I can say is that the lawyers say the incident didn't have the evidence to support her claim of rape in a court of law.

我只能说，律师表示，该事件没有证据支持她在法庭上提出的强奸指控。

It can also say that in a high school of teenagers, two older boys having sex with a younger girl, a 14-year-old girl, in a bathroom at 9:00 in the morning-- it's worrisome, any way you look at it.

它还可以说，在一所青少年高中，两个年龄较大的男孩与一个年龄较小的女孩（一个 14 岁的女孩）早上 9:00 在浴室发生性关系 - 无论你怎么看，这都是令人担忧的。

I feel upset talking about it.

谈论这件事我感到很沮丧。

I felt upset hearing about it.

听到这件事我感到很沮丧。

I tried reaching out to the girl through the law firm that was representing her multiple times, but they didn't respond.

我多次尝试通过代表她的律师事务所联系这个女孩，但他们没有回应。

Under Maryland law, these kids are too close in age for this to be statutory rape.

根据马里兰州法律，这些孩子的年龄太接近，不构成法定强奸。

The state did decide to charge the boys with something else-- child pornography.

州政府确实决定以其他罪名起诉这些男孩——儿童色情制品。

The girl had sent one of the boys naked pictures and videos of herself, and he forwarded them on to the other kid.

女孩向其中一个男孩发送了自己的裸照和视频，男孩将这些照片和视频转发给了另一个男孩。

So Henry, who's 18, remains in jail.

因此，18 岁的亨利仍被关在监狱里。

Jose, who's 17, was released, and then picked up by ICE that same day.

17 岁的何塞被释放，并于当天被 ICE 带走。

He's now in the custody of Immigration Enforcement.

他现在被移民执法局拘留。

I wanted to talk to someone who took this dark, complicated situation involving teenagers and decided the most important thing about it was what it said about our immigration system.

我想与一个人交谈，他经历了涉及青少年的这种黑暗、复杂的情况，并认为其中最重要的是它对我们的移民制度的影响。

The people whose reporting unleashed a flood of threats on that school.

这些人的举报对那所学校发起了大量威胁。

I wanted to ask, why do that?

我想问，为什么要这么做？

I wanted to hear their rationale-- like, what were they trying to achieve?

我想听听他们的理由——比如，他们想要实现什么目标？

And I asked Tucker Carlson.

我问塔克·卡尔森。

He turned me down for an interview.

他拒绝了我的采访。

But I got someone close.

但我有一个亲近的人。

We are talking about cultures that are just behind ours.

我们正在谈论落后于我们的文化。

They are backwards.

他们是落后的。

They're behind us in tolerance, eating with a knife and fork.

他们在宽容方面落后于我们，用刀叉吃饭。

Ann Coulter.

安·库尔特。

Yeah, I called Ann Coulter.

是的，我给安·库尔特打了电话。

Notorious right wing columnist, major influencer behind Trump's immigration policies during the campaign.

臭名昭著的右翼专栏作家，竞选期间特朗普移民政策的主要影响者。

She'd written a column about the case right after the charges were dropped, titled, "To Say, 'Stop Raping Me!' In English, Press '1' Now."

指控被撤销后，她立即写了一篇关于此案的专栏，标题为“说，‘停止强奸我！’”如果是英语，请立即按“1”。”

Her book, Adios America, has multiple chapters focusing on sexual assault cases committed by undocumented immigrants.

她的书《再见美国》有多个章节重点关注无证移民实施的性侵犯案件。

And to anyone who would call it racist or xenophobic to make the Rockville case about immigration, she says--

对于那些认为罗克维尔移民案是种族主义或仇外行为的人，她说——

This is her reaction when I show her a letter the superintendent Jack Smith sent home to parents, which includes a line condemning racist and xenophobic threats against students.

当我给她看一封校长杰克·史密斯寄回家给家长的信时，她的反应就是这样，其中包括谴责针对学生的种族主义和仇外威胁的内容。

Oh, [BLEEP] him.

哦，[哔]他。

Zoe Chace So what's the part?

Zoe Chace 那么这个角色是什么？

While many of you have engaged in-- crossed the line with racist, xenophobic calls and emails-- oh, boo hoo hoo.

虽然你们中的许多人都参与了——跨越了种族主义、仇外心理电话和电子邮件的界限——哦，嘘嘘嘘。

A 14-year-old girl was at least statutorily gang raped.

一名 14 岁女孩至少被法定轮奸。

But the racist, xenophobic calls also affect other students in the school.

但种族主义、仇外言论也影响到了学校的其他学生。

I think now is not the time to be discussing that.

我认为现在不是讨论这个问题的时候。

Right now, a girl has been raped.

目前，一名女孩被强奸。

People are angry about it.

人们对此感到愤怒。

And they are expressing anger.

他们正在表达愤怒。

And he turns around and attacks the people expressing anger by calling them names.

他转身攻击那些表达愤怒的人，辱骂他们。

When do you want to hear about xenophobia?

您什么时候想听到仇外心理？

When it's a problem.

当有问题的时候。

Right now, illegal immigration's a problem.

目前，非法移民是一个问题。

Ann does not believe the prosecutor should have dropped the charges.

安认为检察官不应该撤销指控。

She doesn't believe the evidence is ambiguous or problematic.

她不认为证据含糊或有问题。

She believes unequivocally this was rape.

她明确认为这是强奸。

I played Ann some of the voicemails that poured into the school, after her and others' coverage of the incident.

在安和其他人报道这一事件后，我给安播放了一些涌入学校的语音邮件。

Was that the response she was hoping for?

这就是她所希望的回应吗？

Or was she at least OK with that response?

或者她至少对这个回应还满意吗？

7:59 AM.

上午 7:59。

Male Caller To Voicemail Too bad you didn't rape the mother [BLEEP] who's responsible to let these mother [BLEEP] in.

男性来电者转至语音信箱 太糟糕了，你没有强奸负责让这些母亲 [BLEEP] 进来的母亲 [BLEEP]。

Ann reaches for her nicotine gum and considers this.

安伸手拿起尼古丁口香糖，思考着这一点。

She is unsurprised.

她并不感到惊讶。

I think what you're hearing in the anger here-- it is the frustration and the feeling that there's nothing you can do.

我认为你在这里听到的愤怒是挫败感和你无能为力的感觉。

And frankly, it's going to get worse because they just put a completely implausible reality TV star in the White House hoping to end it.

坦率地说，情况会变得更糟，因为他们只是让一位完全难以置信的真人秀明星入主白宫，希望结束这一切。

And so far, he's not ending it.

到目前为止，他还没有结束它。

If he betrays them, oh, my gosh, you're going to get a lot more messages like that.

如果他背叛了他们，哦，天哪，你会收到更多这样的消息。

Basically, if Trump doesn't crack down on immigration like he said he would, the Jack Smiths of the world are going to get a lot more calls like this.

基本上，如果特朗普不像他所说的那样打击移民，世界各地的杰克·史密斯家族将会接到更多这样的电话。

Her message to them-- stop whining.

她向他们传达的信息是——停止抱怨。

Now they know what it feels like to be Ann Coulter for a day.

现在他们知道当安·库尔特一天是什么感觉。

I get the feeling that maybe Ann Coulter gets a lot of death threats in her line of work.

我有一种感觉，也许安·库尔特在她的工作中受到了很多死亡威胁。

It's gone on with me long enough that I can tell you, well, not only have I never whined in public about it, but if they call first, they're not coming.

我已经经历了足够长的时间，我可以告诉你，好吧，我不仅从未在公共场合抱怨过这件事，而且如果他们先打电话，他们也不会来。

These are just people leaving nasty messages.

这些人只是留下令人讨厌的信息。

Well, people said they were going to come and shoot up the school because there were so many illegal immigrants there.

嗯，人们说他们要来学校开枪，因为那里有很多非法移民。

I mean, that was a threat that was being made at the school.

我的意思是，这是学校里发出的威胁。

OK, some nut makes a phone call.

好吧，有疯子打来电话。

I think the real issue here is we have illegal immigrants raping 14-year-old girls-- allegedly.

我认为真正的问题是非法移民据称强奸 14 岁女孩。

[LAUGHS]

[笑]

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Zoe Chace We talked for two and a half hours, and she helped me understand why she wrote about this-- why she thinks it was necessary and important to turn this incident into a case study about the evils of immigration.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）我们聊了两个半小时，她帮助我理解了她为什么写这篇文章——为什么她认为有必要且重要地将这一事件变成关于移民罪恶的案例研究。

And her explanation surprised me.

她的解释让我感到惊讶。

She said she and Tucker Carlson, they're not saying this stuff to make people angry.

她说她和塔克·卡尔森说这些话并不是为了让人生气。

People are already angry, she says, because no one in power is listening to them.

她说，人们已经很愤怒，因为没有一个当权者在听他们的声音。

Not the schools, not the policy makers, definitely not the media.

不是学校，不是政策制定者，更不是媒体。

So Ann's columns-- her screaming angry columns-- that's not trying to rile those people up.

所以安的专栏——她尖叫的愤怒专栏——并不是试图激怒那些人。

That's Ann screaming at the rest of the media for ignoring the fact that so many people are so angry, she thinks.

她想，那是安在对其他媒体大喊大叫，因为他们忽视了这么多人如此愤怒的事实。

She's screaming because the rest of the media is not.

她尖叫是因为其他媒体没有尖叫。

And she says what we're hearing on the school's voicemails is people's anger over this.

她说我们从学校的语音邮件中听到的是人们对此的愤怒。

They are getting very, very frustrated.

他们变得非常非常沮丧。

And no one is listening to them.

但没有人在听他们的讲话。

And the media is sneering at them and hiding stories that are important to their lives.

媒体嘲笑他们并隐藏对他们生活重要的故事。

I don't think, though, that the callers are frustrated that the mainstream media is not reporting on it, which I think you are.

不过，我认为来电者不会因为主流媒体没有对此进行报道而感到沮丧，而我认为您确实如此。

The callers are antagonized, or whipped up by what Tucker's reporting, and calling the school, and threatening the superintendent.

打电话的人对塔克的报告感到不满，或者被激怒，打电话给学校，并威胁校长。

That's what it seems like the order of operations was.

操作顺序似乎就是这样。

Well, it's all a part of the same thing-- ignoring the problem of illegal immigration, whether it's the immigration bureaucracy, the schools employing them, the taxes going to pay for them.

好吧，这都是同一件事的一部分——忽略非法移民问题，无论是移民官僚机构、雇用他们的学校、还是要为他们支付的税款。

I mean, in some ways the media is a safety valve.

我的意思是，在某些方面，介质是一个安全阀。

The media as a safety valve.

该介质作为安全阀。

Ann thinks if the media reflected the anger of people who are upset about illegal immigration, then those people would be less virulent with their threats, and their voicemails, and their emails, and their Facebook posts.

安认为，如果媒体反映了对非法移民感到不满的人们的愤怒，那么这些人的威胁、语音邮件、电子邮件和 Facebook 帖子的恶毒程度就会降低。

Like this is how she thinks the news should look.

她认为新闻应该是这样的。

Take the very first Washington Post story about this which ran in the metro section with the headline-- Two Students Charged After Rape at Maryland High School.

以《华盛顿邮报》第一篇关于此事的报道为例，该报道在地铁版块刊登，标题是——两名学生在马里兰州高中强奸后被指控。

What should the Washington Post have said if you could have been the editor of that story?

如果你是这篇报道的编辑，《华盛顿邮报》应该怎么说？

And you would have said?

你会说吗？

What would the headline...

标题会是什么...

Immigration policy implicated in the suburbs.

涉及郊区的移民政策。

Or implicated in rape in the suburbs...implication or immigration seen as factor...no, as cause!

或者涉嫌郊区强奸……暗示或移民被视为因素……不，是原因！

They wouldn't have been here if we had a wall.

如果我们有一堵墙，他们就不会在这里。

Another argument for Trump's wall.

特朗普建墙的另一个论据。

Hm.

嗯。

But then being immigrants doesn't necessarily have to do with the raping.

但作为移民并不一定与强奸有关。

Who cares.

谁在乎。

These rapists would not have been here.

这些强奸犯不会在这里。

I just thought that it was so much more about immigration policy, and it really seems like it's a media criticism.

我只是认为这更多的是关于移民政策，而且看起来确实像是媒体的批评。

Yes, over their defense of illegal immigration.

是的，他们为非法移民辩护。

There is no evidence that being born somewhere else leads people to commit more crimes than if they were born right here in the US.

没有证据表明出生在其他地方的人会比出生在美国的人犯下更多的犯罪行为。

The numbers that exist just don't prove that out.

现有的数字并不能证明这一点。

There are all these fears being whipped up around the country about this perceived national menace, but inside Rockville High School, there were fears just about walking down the hallway.

全国各地都在煽动这种被认为是国家威胁的恐惧，但在罗克维尔高中内部，人们只是走在走廊上就感到恐惧。

I guess in the point of view of a girl, the girls felt unsafe.

我想从女孩的角度来看，女孩们感到不安全。

You know, they didn't want to go to the bathroom.

你知道，他们不想去洗手间。

They're like I'm scared now.

他们就像我现在很害怕一样。

This is Keydie, ninth grader at Rockville High School.

我是基迪，罗克维尔高中九年级学生。

She's Hispanic.

她是西班牙裔。

Her parents are from Honduras.

她的父母来自洪都拉斯。

She's one of those girls who seems like she just came into her own, like recently transitioned over from kid to young adult.

她是那些看起来刚刚成为自己的女孩之一，就像最近从孩子转变为年轻人一样。

In the weeks and months since the alleged rape in the bathroom, and the national firestorm that came after it, the fears of her and her classmates took on different forms.

自从所谓的浴室强奸案以及随后发生的全国性风暴以来的几周和几个月里，她和她的同学的恐惧呈现出不同的形式。

She felt scared as a Honduran American, and as the daughter of immigrants.

作为洪都拉斯美国人和移民的女儿，她感到害怕。

And then, for the immigrant-- I guess the Hispanic students in our school-- they were at a point where they were feeling judged and scared, because they were thinking that the guy who did this was being more accused due to the fact that he's Hispanic, you know?

然后，对于移民——我猜是我们学校的西班牙裔学生——他们感到受到评判和害怕，因为他们认为做这件事的人因为他是西班牙裔而受到更多指控，你知道吗？

He's being judged even more.

他受到的评判甚至更多。

Like, if we do something now, they're going to kick us out of the school or something, because we don't have papers.

就像，如果我们现在做某事，他们就会把我们赶出学校什么的，因为我们没有证件。

I was scared-- what if something like that could happen to me.

我很害怕——如果这样的事情发生在我身上怎么办？

Because I don't know all the people in my school.

因为我不认识学校里的所有人。

Like, I don't know their intentions.

比如说，我不知道他们的意图。

Like, they could seem nice, but I don't know if they want to have a nice friendship and whatnot.

就像，他们看起来不错，但我不知道他们是否想要建立良好的友谊等等。

Like, you don't know what to expect.

就像，你不知道会发生什么。

Like, you just can't be trusting people like that.

就像，你不能相信这样的人。

It's like all the students were afraid for different reasons at the same time.

就好像所有的学生同时因为不同的原因而感到害怕。

Exactly.

确切地。

Zoe Chace That's lots of people right now.

Zoe Chace 现在有很多人。

Lots of people are afraid for different reasons at the same time.

很多人同时因为不同的原因而感到害怕。

Zoe Chace is one of the producers of our show.

佐伊·查斯是我们节目的制片人之一。

Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar.

我们今天的节目由乔纳森·门吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar) 制作。

Our staff includes Elise Bergerson, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, [INAUDIBLE], Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Karen Duffin, Stephanie Foo, Kimberly Henderson, Miki Meek, Robyn Semien, Christopher [INAUDIBLE], Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, and Julie Whitaker.

我们的员工包括 Elise Bergerson、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、[听不清]、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Karen Duffin、Stephanie Foo、Kimberly Henderson、Miki Meek、Robyn Semien、Christopher [听不清]、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike 和 Julie Whitaker。

Senior producers, Brian Reed, Diane Wu, and Ben [INAUDIBLE] worked on today's show.

高级制片人 Brian Reed、Diane Wu 和 Ben [听不清] 参与了今天的节目。

[ACKNOWLEDGMENTS] Our website, ThisAmericanLife.Org.

[致谢] 我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.Org。

This American Life distributed by public radio stations, by PRX, The Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX（公共广播电台交易所）发行。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he knew a lot of people in Montreal speak French, but man, he went to Paris, and heard people speaking--

你知道，他知道蒙特利尔有很多人说法语，但是他去了巴黎，听到人们说——

Wow, in Europe?

哇，在欧洲？

Of all places, this is happening in Europe?

在所有地方中，这种情况发生在欧洲吗？

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。