620: To Be Real - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #620 | July 14, 2017 620: To Be Real Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 620 集 | 2017 年 7 月 14 日 620：真实 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
How many shows do you think you've started by saying, "So tell me what happened"?
您认为有多少节目是在开始时说“那么告诉我发生了什么事”？
It's actually very few.
其实是很少的。
That's Chana Joffe-Walt, one of our producers.
这是我们的制作人之一查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)。
But this week, when she came into the studio with me, she did call this one correctly.
但本周，当她和我一起走进工作室时，她确实正确地称呼了这个。
What else could I say?
我还能说什么？
So what did happen?
那么到底发生了什么？
Chana Joffe-Walt OK, so this was a few weeks ago.
Chana Joffe-Walt 好吧，这是几周前的事了。
Elementary and middle schools in East Harlem all got together in an auditorium for a talent show, a school talent show.
东哈林区的中小学都聚集在礼堂里进行才艺表演，学校才艺表演。
So little kids are coming up to the stage to do orchestra performances and band and dance performances.
小孩子们纷纷上台进行管弦乐队表演、乐队和舞蹈表演。
And at the end of the night, there's one more act on the program.
当晚结束时，节目中还有一幕。
It says "special surprise performance." And a drag queen comes out on stage, a grown-up.
上面写着“特别惊喜的表演”。舞台上出现了一位变装皇后，一个成年人。
She's wearing this long, red wig and a black sequined leotard that has sheer arms with feathers around her wrists.
她戴着一顶长长的红色假发，穿着黑色亮片紧身衣，手臂上有透明的羽毛，手腕上有羽毛。
And she comes out and does an Iris Chacón number, this Puerto Rican icon.
她出来表演了 Iris Chacón 的歌曲，这是波多黎各的偶像。
[CHEERING] Ira Glass And this is the sound of that?
[欢呼] Ira Glass 这就是那个声音？
So this is the sound of that.
所以这就是那个声音。
This is actually the sound of when she gets down on the ground and rolls over onto all fours then rolls back onto her back and puts her two legs up in the air and then opens them.
这实际上是她趴在地上，四肢着地翻滚，然后又翻回仰面，将两条腿举在空中，然后张开时发出的声音。
And you can see her underwear.
你还可以看到她的内衣。
[WILD LAUGHTER] Ira Glass So just to be clear, there are elementary school kids here?
[狂笑] Ira Glass 那么澄清一下，这里有小学生吗？
Yes!
是的！
Yes.
是的。
This is a school performance.
这是学校的表演。
There are tons of kids.
有很多孩子。
And on the program, it doesn't say who this person is, but it turns out a lot of people in this school know this person because he is a well-known dad in the school.
而且节目上并没有说这个人是谁，但是事实证明这个学校很多人都认识这个人，因为他是学校里有名的爸爸。
He's the president of the PTA.
他是 PTA 的主席。
Longtime president.
长期担任总统。
This is actually his very last term as PTA president.
这实际上是他作为 PTA 主席的最后一个任期。
He's the outgoing PTA president.
他是即将卸任的 PTA 主席。
Chana tried to reach the guy, but never talked to him.
查纳试图联系那个人，但从未与他交谈。
She actually heard about this story in a tabloid newspaper, The Daily News, under this headline--
她其实是在一份小报《每日新闻》上听说过这个故事的，标题是——
"Parents Horrified After Man Performs Surprise Drag Show at Manhattan School Talent Event." And that article has descriptions like, "Parents said families' laughter turned to disbelief and then dismay as Quinones"-- the PTA dad-- "opened his mouth and exercised his tongue in a suggestive manner while lip-syncing the Chacn number."
“男子在曼哈顿学校才艺活动上表演令人惊讶的变装秀后，家长们感到震惊。”那篇文章有这样的描述：“父母们说，当奎诺斯”（PTA 的父亲）“张开嘴，以暗示的方式运动他的舌头，同时对口型同步 Chacn 号码时，家人的笑声变成了怀疑，然后是沮丧。”
School talent show in Manhattan taking a raunchy turn--
曼哈顿的学校才艺表演发生了不修边幅的转变——
So the story spreads to TV.
于是这个故事就流传到了电视上。
It has a brief, enthusiastic moment on local TV.
它在当地电视上有一个短暂而热情的时刻。
This outlandish drag performance, put on by the PTA president--
PTA主席表演的这种古怪的变装表演——
And all the TV reporters talked to this same mother, the one who complained about it.
所有的电视记者都采访了这位抱怨此事的母亲。
He laid on his back.
他仰面躺着。
He raised his legs.
他抬起腿。
Opened his legs wide open.
张开双腿。
What made you, in your head, think that that was appropriate for elementary school students?
是什么让您认为这适合小学生？
Mrs. Morales' report card for both the school and the district?
莫拉莱斯夫人为学校和学区提供的成绩单？
An F and a triple X.
一个 F 和三个 X。
That is perfect local TV newswriting, I have to say.
我不得不说，这是完美的当地电视新闻写作。
It was like she was waiting for the chance.
她就像是在等待机会。
Yeah.
是的。
Chana Joffe-Walt It was clear from some of the other coverage that lots of people in the school like this guy, know him really well, and that some people liked the performance.
Chana Joffe-Walt 从其他一些报道中可以清楚地看出，学校里有很多人喜欢这个家伙，非常了解他，而且有些人喜欢他的表演。
The performance was spot-on.
表演非常到位。
Spot on.
现货。
He did everything like Iris Chacn would have done.
他所做的一切就像 Iris Chacn 会做的那样。
Have they?
他们有吗？
From East Harlem, Vanessa Murdock, CBS2 News.
来自东哈莱姆区，凡妮莎·默多克，CBS2 新闻。
OK.
好的。
So you heard about this thing that happened, and it interested you.
所以你听说了发生的这件事，并且你对此很感兴趣。
It hit something in you, and your reaction was different.
它击中了你内心的某些东西，你的反应就不同了。
It totally captivated me.
它完全让我着迷。
I thought about him so much.
我非常想他。
And I did not have any of those reactions.
我没有任何这些反应。
It didn't feel like it was super scandalous.
感觉这并不是什么超级可耻的事情。
I just felt totally taken by it because I spend a lot of time watching shows like this.
我只是觉得完全被它吸引了，因为我花了很多时间看这样的节目。
I have two young kids.
我有两个年幼的孩子。
I have younger sisters.
我有妹妹。
I do reporting in schools.
我在学校做报告。
In fact, in that same month as the drag performance, Chana went to a preschool end of the year ceremony and performance, a kindergarten stepping up ceremony, a middle school graduation, a middle school talent show, and a magic after-school program performance.
事实上，在变装表演的同一个月，查娜参加了学前班年终典礼和表演、幼儿园升学典礼、中学毕业典礼、中学才艺表演和魔术课后节目表演。
That was just June.
那只是六月。
And that was when I saw this video.
就在那时我看到了这个视频。
And I feel like I spend most of the time sitting through those shows just waiting for something like this to happen, like maybe something exciting and unexpected will happen.
我觉得我大部分时间都在观看这些节目，只是等待这样的事情发生，就像也许会发生一些令人兴奋和意想不到的事情。
They're mind-numbing.
他们令人心麻木。
And then there's the one tiny, tiny moment where your kid does something and no matter what they do, that's amazing, but then you have to continue to perform to be as amazed at every other kid for the next, sometimes, three hours.
然后有一个很小很小的时刻，你的孩子做了一些事情，无论他们做什么，这都是令人惊奇的，但接下来你必须继续表现，让其他孩子在接下来的时间里（有时是三个小时）感到惊讶。
So all I ever hope for is something in one of these shows will happen that is unexpected.
所以我所希望的就是这些节目中会发生一些意想不到的事情。
And I know this is not the surprise that people in this school wanted.
我知道这并不是这所学校的人们想要的惊喜。
Like, I get that.
就像，我明白了。
It is sexual.
这是性的。
There are children.
有孩子。
It's drag.
这是拖累。
It's gay, which is probably even scarier to some parents.
这是同性恋，这对一些父母来说可能更可怕。
That whole thing, I understand.
整件事我明白了。
I get that.
我明白了。
But.
但。
Chana Joffe-Walt But I feel like the thing I liked about it is not just that it's surprising, but it's him.
Chana Joffe-Walt 但我觉得我喜欢的不仅仅是它令人惊讶，而是他。
Like, it is this guy.
比如说，就是这个人。
This is a real thing that is happening.
这是真实发生的事情。
He is getting on stage and sharing a part of himself with his community.
他走上舞台，与社区分享自己的一部分。
He's being real.
他很真实。
Chana Joffe-Walt He's being real.
Chana Joffe-Walt 他是真实的。
Yeah, he's being real.
是的，他很真实。
And that's what you want, right?
这就是你想要的，对吧？
He's kind of modeling the thing that you want from these shows, is that some kid will get up there and do some weird, strange thing that is just themselves, that is just true, just feels like who they are.
他模仿了你想要从这些节目中看到的东西，就是某个孩子会站起来做一些奇怪的事情，这只是他们自己，这是真的，感觉就像他们是谁。
You're saying that because you've actually seen that?
你这么说是因为你亲眼所见？
Well, I was thinking, after watching this video, that one of the most moving things I've ever seen on stage, actually, was at a school talent show years ago that I hadn't thought about for a long time, where this girl got up.
嗯，看完这个视频后，我在想，我在舞台上见过的最动人的事情之一，实际上是在几年前的一次学校才艺表演上，我已经很久没有想到过，这个女孩站起来了。
She was maybe 10, and she was super shy.
她大概 10 岁，非常害羞。
She was like one of those kids that you're kind of surprised that she's getting on stage in the first place.
她就像那些一开始就登上舞台的孩子，你会感到惊讶。
And she seemed nervous.
而且她看起来很紧张。
And then the music comes on and she very confidently moves into this strange interpretive dance of Billie Jean, where she's--
然后音乐响起，她非常自信地跳进了 Billie Jean 的这段奇怪的诠释舞蹈，她在那里——
Michael Jackson.
迈克尔·杰克逊。
Chana Joffe-Walt Yeah, Michael Jackson, but she's not wearing a fedora.
Chana Joffe-Walt 是的，迈克尔·杰克逊，但她没有戴软呢帽。
She's wearing a beret.
她戴着贝雷帽。
The most striking part of it was just that she was super confident.
最引人注目的是她超级自信。
And she's kind of leaning over like she's like an elderly person and moving her arms back and forth, like octopus arms.
她像个老人一样弯下腰，前后移动手臂，就像章鱼的手臂一样。
I remember she had braids, purple braids, that were also swinging back and forth.
我记得她有辫子，紫色的辫子，也来回摆动。
And people lost it.
人们失去了它。
Everybody went totally crazy for her.
每个人都为她疯狂。
Not because she was good.
还不是因为她优秀。
She wasn't doing the moves very well.
她的动作做得不太好。
But it was her.
但那是她。
This was a true thing that was happening.
这是正在发生的真实的事情。
This was a person who the stage gave her a place to perform something that she's interested in, something who she really is, something that just is real, is true.
这个人的舞台给了她一个地方来表演一些她感兴趣的东西，一些她真正的样子，一些真实的东西。
Well, today on our radio program, that is what we aspire to.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，这就是我们所渴望的。
That is where we're heading.
这就是我们要去的地方。
We are leaving behind the obligatory, the half-baked, the phoned-in, the superficial.
我们正在抛弃那些强制性的、半生不熟的、打电话的、肤浅的东西。
We leave behind the meh.
我们留下了meh。
And we turn our backs on the word "meh" because the word "meh" is meh itself.
我们背弃“meh”这个词，因为“meh”这个词本身就是meh。
And instead, we have stories of people seeking out what is real, what is true in some places you might not expect that.
相反，我们有这样的故事：人们在某些你可能意想不到的地方寻找真实的东西。
What you find, what you feel, what you know to be real.
你发现什么，你感受到什么，你知道什么是真实的。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, How I Learned to Start Worrying and Fear the Bomb.
第一幕，我如何学会开始担心和害怕炸弹。
You probably heard a few weeks ago North Korea fired an intercontinental ballistic missile, one powerful enough, news reports said, to reach Alaska with a nuclear warhead.
你可能听说几周前朝鲜发射了一枚洲际弹道导弹，据新闻报道称，该导弹的威力足以将核弹头抵达阿拉斯加。
And it was big news.
这是个大新闻。
People were shocked, North Korea being on the verge of being able to nuke us.
人们感到震惊，朝鲜即将用核武器攻击我们。
Which was strange to one of our producers here at our show, David Kestenbaum.
这对于我们节目中的一位制作人 David Kestenbaum 来说很奇怪。
He used to be a reporter for National Public Radio.
他曾是国家公共广播电台的记者。
When I was at NPR, one of the things I helped cover was nuclear weapons policy around the world.
当我在 NPR 时，我帮助报道的事情之一是世界各地的核武器政策。
And when it came to North Korea, I've talked to people, various experts, and they would say something like, we have a decade.
当谈到朝鲜时，我与人们、各种专家交谈过，他们会说，我们还有十年的时间。
It's going to take them a while to get there.
他们需要一段时间才能到达那里。
About a decade ago.
大约十年前。
Ira Glass So right on time.
艾拉·格拉斯 非常准时。
We're exactly on schedule.
我们完全按计划进行。
Ira Glass Right.
艾拉·格拉斯 对。
We said that 10 years ago it would take 10 years.
10年前我们就说过需要10年。
Here we are.
我们到了。
And I just thought, how did we let this happen?
我只是想，我们怎么会让这种事发生呢？
How did we get here?
我们是怎么到这里的？
How did we get here?
我们是怎么到这里的？
All of us, David included, were not being real with ourselves about what was going on with North Korea.
我们所有人，包括大卫在内，都没有真实地面对朝鲜正在发生的事情。
To remedy that, and to get some answers about how we let this happen, David turned to a trusted source on iTunes.
为了解决这个问题，并获得有关我们如何让这种情况发生的一些答案，David 求助于 iTunes 上的可信来源。
Quick warning.
快速警告。
There are a couple curse words in his story and in one other story in today's program that we have unbeeped here on the internet version of our program.
在他的故事和今天节目中的另一个故事中，有一些咒语，我们在节目的互联网版本上没有发出提示音。
If you don't want to hear those words, maybe you're listening with kids, there is a beeped version at our website.
如果您不想听这些话，也许您正在和孩子们一起听，我们的网站上有一个嘟嘟声版本。
Here's David.
这是大卫。
Back when I was covering this stuff, we reporters all had a short list of people we would call to comment when there was news.
当我报道这些事情时，我们记者都有一个简短的名单，当有新闻出现时我们会打电话发表评论。
And often, this thing would happen.
而且经常会发生这样的事情。
When the interview started and we were recording, the person would get super serious because, you know, nuclear weapons.
当采访开始并且我们正在录音时，这个人会变得非常严肃，因为，你知道，核武器。
The world could end.
世界可能会终结。
The thing is, that is not how a lot of them actually talked about this stuff.
问题是，他们中的很多人实际上并不是这样谈论这些东西的。
The way they actually talked off mic was more like this.
他们实际上关闭麦克风的方式更像是这样。
Kim Jong Un posed with a nuclear weapon!
金正恩手持核武器合影！
We saw everything.
我们看到了一切。
David Kestenbaum This is from a podcast called Arms Control Wonk.
David Kestenbaum 这是来自一个名为 Arms Control Wonk 的播客。
It's helped me understand North Korea in a way that I never had.
它帮助我以一种我从未有过的方式了解朝鲜。
It was started by Jeffrey Lewis.
它是由杰弗里·刘易斯发起的。
He's a nuclear policy expert and also director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey.
他是一位核政策专家，也是蒙特雷米德尔伯里国际研究学院东亚防扩散项目的主任。
He says, frankly, he was tired of all the formal diplomat speak.
他说，坦白说，他厌倦了所有正式的外交官讲话。
I was giving a talk to the board of Middlebury College.
我当时正在向明德学院董事会发表演讲。
This was a pretty big talk to have to give to show off the research of the center.
这是一个相当大的演讲，必须要展示该中心的研究成果。
And at some point, we were talking about a photograph of Kim Jong Un that had been digitally altered.
在某个时候，我们正在谈论一张经过数字修改的金正恩照片。
Something had been done to his ears.
他的耳朵被做了什么。
And we see this a lot.
我们经常看到这种情况。
And what I said was, they always fuck with his ears.
我说的是，他们总是操他的耳朵。
And everybody was looking at me like, uh, did you just say that?
每个人都看着我，就像，呃，你刚才是这么说的吗？
We think they make them smaller.
我们认为它们使它们变得更小。
So I guess he feels like his ears are too big?
所以我猜他觉得自己的耳朵太大了？
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's a weird thing to be worried about.
担心是一件很奇怪的事情。
That is the kind of microanalysis Jeffrey and the people he works with do-- not just with Kim Jong Un's ears.
这就是杰弗里和他的同事所做的微观分析——而不仅仅是金正恩的耳朵。
Whenever there are new photos of a missile or there's been a nuclear test, they dig through the data in a really smart way.
每当有导弹的新照片或进行核试验时，他们就会以非常聪明的方式挖掘数据。
I've even gotten attached to the theme song, which has this upbeat time bomb thing going on.
我什至对主题曲产生了浓厚的兴趣，其中充满了乐观的定时炸弹。
It's from a German punk band.
这是德国朋克乐队的作品。
You are listening to the Arms Control Wonk podcast, the leading podcast on arms control, nonproliferation, and disarmament.
您正在收听军控专家播客，这是有关军备控制、防扩散和裁军的领先播客。
One of the things they spend a lot of time trying to sort out on the podcast is what is real.
他们花了很多时间试图在播客上弄清楚什么是真实的。
It can be hard to tell.
这可能很难说。
North Korea will put out some propaganda video saying, "Another successful missile launch." But if you look closer, it is not always what it seems.
朝鲜将发布一些宣传视频，称“再次成功发射导弹”。但如果你仔细观察，就会发现事情并不总是看起来那样。
Here's a clip from the podcast where Jeffrey is talking to one of his grad students.
这是播客中的一个片段，杰弗里正在与他的一位研究生交谈。
So this Korean group in Japan that releases all this North Korean propaganda released a little video which they claimed to be footage of the submarine launch but turned out was not.
因此，这个在日本发布所有朝鲜宣传内容的韩国团体发布了一段小视频，他们声称这是潜艇发射的镜头，但事实证明并非如此。
Launching a missile from a submarine would be a big deal because, if they can put a nuclear weapon on a sub, it's harder to destroy.
从潜艇发射导弹将是一件大事，因为如果他们可以在潜艇上安装核武器，那么摧毁它就更困难了。
And they might be able to sneak it closer to US shores.
他们也许能够将其偷偷靠近美国海岸。
So the video gets posted online and Jeffrey says, looks pretty impressive.
因此，该视频被发布到网上，杰弗里说，看起来非常令人印象深刻。
They basically show the top of the tube, where the missile is, underwater.
它们基本上显示了管子的顶部，即导弹在水下的位置。
And the hatch is open, and the missile pops up, and it goes rushing through the water.
舱门打开，导弹弹出，冲入水中。
But the grad student, Dave Schmerler, looks at this and thinks something doesn't seem right.
但研究生戴夫·施默勒 (Dave Schmerler) 看到这一点后，觉得有些不对劲。
So he just starts googling submarine launch footage.
所以他开始在谷歌上搜索潜艇发射的镜头。
And one of the first things he finds on YouTube is this thing that looks very similar.
他在 YouTube 上发现的第一件事就是这个看起来非常相似的东西。
And I mean very similar.
我的意思是非常相似。
Jeffrey showed me the video clip so I could compare.
杰弗里给我看了视频片段，以便我进行比较。
It's this crazy underwater.
水下真是太疯狂了。
David Kestenbaum That's impressive.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 这令人印象深刻。
It looks cool, right?
看起来很酷，对吧？
David Kestenbaum Yeah, yeah.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 是的，是的。
It looks cool.
看起来很酷。
OK.
好的。
So here's the other one.
这是另一件事。
Announcer --and a new submarine, faster, quieter--
播音员——还有一艘新的潜艇，更快、更安静——
The other one is an old video of a US missile launch.
另一段是美国导弹发射的旧视频。
They took our footage.
他们拍了我们的镜头。
Announcer --then the Poseidon, or C3 missile--
播音员——然后是波塞冬，或 C3 导弹——
Yeah.
是的。
It's the same, right?
是一样的，对吧？
David Kestenbaum I mean, it's exactly the same.
David Kestenbaum 我的意思是，这是完全一样的。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
And they do this all the time.
他们一直这样做。
Do you think they actually launched a missile from a submarine that day?
你认为那天他们真的从潜艇发射了一枚导弹吗？
I think they may have popped up a missile from a barge, but I don't think it flew.
我认为他们可能从驳船上弹出了一枚导弹，但我认为它没有飞起来。
I don't think it worked.
我认为这不起作用。
I don't think it involved a submarine.
我不认为这涉及潜艇。
So basically, none of what they were saying happened happened?
那么基本上，他们所说的事情都没有发生吗？
Right.
正确的。
David Kestenbaum You can see why it would be easy not to take them too seriously.
David Kestenbaum 你会明白为什么不认真对待它们是很容易的。
The thing that Jeffrey has noticed about North Korea's claims, though, is that there is always some truth to them.
不过，杰弗里注意到朝鲜的说法总是有一定道理的。
Like, OK, maybe they didn't launch a missile from a sub, but they're working on it.
就像，好吧，也许他们没有从潜艇发射导弹，但他们正在研究它。
And maybe that wasn't an actual hydrogen bomb they tested, but it was probably something else worrying.
也许那不是他们测试的真正的氢弹，但这可能是其他令人担忧的事情。
In listening to this podcast, you realize how relentlessly the North Koreans have been working at this stuff over the years.
在收听这个播客时，您会意识到朝鲜人多年来在这方面的努力是多么不懈。
It's this running audio diary of North Korea's military program.
这是朝鲜军事计划的实时音频日记。
Missile test after missile test.
导弹试验后的导弹试验。
This is from 2014.
这是2014年的事情。
The pace at which they are testing is totally unprecedented.
他们测试的速度是前所未有的。
It's a little bit hard to count them all up because there have been so many tests.
将它们全部统计起来有点困难，因为已经进行了很多测试。
More of those tests this year than certainly any year I know, and maybe than ever.
今年的测试数量比我所知的任何一年都要多，甚至可能比以往任何时候都多。
I mean, it is a lot of missile tests.
我的意思是，这是很多导弹试验。
I had always imagined we'd figure something out.
我一直以为我们会想出办法。
We'd reach some agreement with North Korea, or we'd do something before things got this bad.
我们会与朝鲜达成一些协议，或者我们会在事情变得如此糟糕之前采取一些行动。
How did we get here?
我们是怎么到这里的？
This was a half hour discussion, but I'll distill it down for you.
这是一个半小时的讨论，但我会为你总结一下。
Jeffrey says our best chance to stop this was probably in the late '90s.
杰弗里说，我们阻止这种情况的最佳机会可能是在 90 年代末。
This was before North Korea had nuclear bombs.
这是在朝鲜拥有核弹之前。
Jeffrey points out it's always easier to get someone to give up something that they don't have yet.
杰弗里指出，让某人放弃他们尚未拥有的东西总是更容易。
The US-- this was the Clinton administration-- and North Korea had negotiated something called the Agreed Framework.
美国——这就是克林顿政府——和朝鲜已经谈判达成了所谓的“框架协议”。
North Korea would shut down its nuclear reactor that could produce plutonium for bombs.
朝鲜将关闭其可生产炸弹用钚的核反应堆。
In exchange, they would get two new nuclear power plants, a different type that would make electricity and would be harder to get plutonium out of for bombs.
作为交换，他们将获得两座新的核电站，一种不同类型的核电站，可以发电，但更难从炸弹中提取钚。
North Korea would also get fuel oil to tide them over until the new reactors could be built.
朝鲜还将获得燃料油来渡过难关，直到建造新的反应堆。
And we'd try to resume normal economic and diplomatic relations.
我们将努力恢复正常的经济和外交关系。
But some Republican members of Congress felt like we were appeasing what was a brutal regime, so ending sanctions was a nonstarter.
但国会的一些共和党议员觉得我们是在安抚残暴的政权，因此结束制裁是不可能的。
We were slow in fulfilling our part of the deal.
我们在履行我们的协议方面进展缓慢。
Oil shipments were late.
石油运输延迟。
There were also delays building the new reactors, which were to be paid for mostly by South Korea and Japan.
新反应堆的建设也被推迟，这些费用主要由韩国和日本支付。
On the North Korea side, it looked like they might still be working on a bomb.
在朝鲜方面，看起来他们可能还在研制炸弹。
In 2002, the CIA said North Korea was building centrifuges, big spinning tubes that could enrich uranium.
2002年，中央情报局称朝鲜正在建造离心机，这是一种可以浓缩铀的大型旋转管。
They certainly had them by 2010, when a US weapons scientist, Sig Hecker, was invited over for a visit.
到 2010 年，当美国武器科学家西格·赫克 (Sig Hecker) 应邀来访时，他们确实已经拥有了这些能力。
The North Koreans actually had him over a bunch.
朝鲜人实际上已经把他压制住了。
They took him to this huge building as long as a football field.
他们带着他来到了这座有足球场那么长的巨大建筑。
It was filled with centrifuges.
里面装满了离心机。
This is from a talk he's given.
这是他的一次演讲。
When I went up to the second floor and I looked into the centrifuge hall through this glass, I said, wow, 2,000 centrifuges in there.
当我上二楼，透过玻璃看到离心机大厅时，我说，哇，里面有2000台离心机。
They must have noticed that my jaw dropped all the way down to here.
他们一定注意到了我的下巴一直掉到这里。
It was just totally mind-boggling.
这真是令人难以置信。
I thought it was more like a garage operation, where they had made a few of their own or whatever.
我认为这更像是一个车库操作，他们在那里制作了一些自己的东西或其他东西。
Instead, this was different.
相反，这是不同的。
Control room, all flat-paneled LEDs display, flat-panel computers.
控制室，全平板LED显示屏，平板电脑。
It was unbelievable.
这太令人难以置信了。
Jeffrey Lewis says, looking back, we should have found some way to make the agreement work.
杰弗里·刘易斯说，回顾过去，我们应该找到某种方法来使协议发挥作用。
We blew it.
我们搞砸了。
Yeah, we blew it in a pretty comprehensive, complex way.
是的，我们以一种非常全面、复杂的方式搞砸了。
They didn't help things because they didn't trust us, and they definitely-- cheated is a word with a bunch of moral tones to it, but they didn't make it easy.
他们没有提供帮助，因为他们不信任我们，而且他们确实——“欺骗”这个词带有很多道德色彩，但他们并没有让这件事变得容易。
So now, I think we're at a point where they have these nuclear weapons, and they're not giving them up.
所以现在，我认为我们正处于他们拥有这些核武器的时刻，而且他们不会放弃它们。
There have been attempts at negotiation over the years, but usually the US has insisted that North Korea give up its nukes, basically wanting to go back to those days before North Korea had a bomb.
多年来一直试图进行谈判，但美国通常坚持要求朝鲜放弃核武器，基本上是想回到朝鲜拥有核弹之前的日子。
North Korea, understandably, has said no. Jeffrey says Kim Jong Un believes that, as long as he has nukes and missiles to launch them, no one will mess with him.
朝鲜的拒绝是可以理解的。杰弗里说，金正恩相信，只要他有核武器和导弹可以发射，就没有人会惹他。
And he's kind of right.
他是对的。
When North Korea did its first nuclear test in 2006, it was basically a dud.
2006年朝鲜进行第一次核试验时，基本上是失败的。
Jeffrey says his reaction at the time was, they are the worst ever at this.
杰弗里说，他当时的反应是，他们是有史以来最糟糕的。
But they've gotten better and done more tests since then.
但从那以后他们已经变得更好并且做了更多的测试。
North Korea has been pretty clear about what it wants to be able to do with its bombs.
朝鲜已经非常清楚它想用其炸弹做什么。
A few years ago, North Korea released this propaganda photo.
几年前，朝鲜发布了这张宣传照片。
It was taken inside some military facility.
它是在某个军事设施内拍摄的。
And in the background, on the wall, was this map.
在背景墙上，有这张地图。
If you zoomed in, you could see these lines that terminate at cities in the US, presumably the ones North Korea would like to be able to strike with nuclear missiles.
如果放大，你可以看到这些线路终止于美国的城市，大概是朝鲜希望能够用核导弹打击的城市。
The photo is well-known in analyst circles.
这张照片在分析师圈子里是众所周知的。
It's sometimes called the Map of Death.
它有时被称为死亡地图。
And then earlier this year, North Korea released an even more remarkable photo-- Kim Jong Un posing with this shiny thing.
今年早些时候，朝鲜发布了一张更引人注目的照片——金正恩与这个闪亮的东西合影。
I was like, holy shit, that's a nuclear weapon.
我当时想，天哪，那是核武器。
Foreign leaders do not pose with nuclear weapons.
外国领导人不会携带核武器拍照。
That is just not a thing.
那根本就不是一件事。
Just describe what the photo looks like.
只需描述照片的样子即可。
Yeah.
是的。
He's in a missile plant.
他在导弹工厂里。
And he's in this crazy getup, which is kind of an allusion to his grandfather.
他穿着这种疯狂的装束，这有点暗指他的祖父。
So he's got like the Russian fur hat and this big coat with this fur collar.
所以他有像俄罗斯毛皮帽子和这件带有毛领的大衣。
And he got these silly eyeglasses that sometimes he wears.
他有时戴着这些愚蠢的眼镜。
And so he looks ridiculous.
所以他看起来很可笑。
And in front of him is this spherical object.
而他的面前，就是这个球形物体。
Actually, it's not spherical.
事实上，它不是球形的。
It's a specific type of geometric pattern, but whatever.
这是一种特定类型的几何图案，但无论如何。
It's this big-- it looks like a disco ball.
它有这么大——看起来像一个迪斯科舞会。
If that's an actual bomb, he says it's small enough to fit on a missile.
他说，如果那是真正的炸弹，它就足够小，可以装在导弹上。
This picture, of course, merited an entire podcast and included a rant Jeffrey delivers in lots of them about denial.
当然，这张照片值得一整个播客，其中包括杰弗里在很多播客中发表的关于否认的咆哮。
You know what my favorite part about this whole conversation has been?
你知道整个谈话中我最喜欢的部分是什么吗？
What?
什么？
Jeffrey Lewis I have noticed that there is this incredible reluctance to believe that the North Koreans have actually developed nuclear weapons.
杰弗里·刘易斯（Jeffrey Lewis）我注意到，人们非常不愿意相信朝鲜人实际上已经研制出了核武器。
So every time the North does a nuclear test-- you know, I have some South Korean reporter asking me like, well, is it possible that they just filled a mountain with conventional explosives?
所以每次朝鲜进行核试验时——你知道，一些韩国记者问我，他们有没有可能只是在一座山里装满了常规炸药？
And when you step back from it, it's like, oh, wow.
当你退后一步时，你会感觉，哦，哇。
They've done four nuclear tests.
他们已经进行了四次核试验。
Three times they have paraded road mobile ICBMs down the streets of Pyongyang.
他们曾三度在平壤街头展示公路机动洲际弹道导弹。
They put up a map of the United States with targets on it that said Mainland Strike Plan.
他们贴出了一张美国地图，上面标有目标，上面写着“大陆打击计划”。
And now Kim Jong Un is standing in front of-- it's probably a mockup, but nonetheless-- a nuclear weapon.
现在金正恩正站在核武器前面——这可能是一个模型，但无论如何。
And people are like, what do you think they're saying?
人们会问，你认为他们在说什么？
It seems pretty frickin clear to me.
对我来说这似乎非常清楚。
Jeffrey says, through all this, we have kind of underestimated the North Koreans maybe because they seem so goofy.
杰弗里说，通过这一切，我们有点低估了朝鲜人，也许是因为他们看起来很愚蠢。
Or maybe because it's easier to do that than to admit the truth.
或者也许是因为这样做比承认事实更容易。
I actually had a big argument with-- I shouldn't call it an argument.
事实上，我与人发生了一场激烈的争论——我不应该称之为争论。
I had a big conversation with a Japanese government official about this, where we were talking about, oh, I don't know, some missile test.
我和一位日本政府官员就此事进行了一次深入的交谈，我们谈论的是，哦，我不知道，一些导弹试验。
I mean, there have been so many at this point.
我的意思是，此时已经有很多了。
And he was sort of saying like, well, we're going to have to give sanctions some more time to work.
他的意思是，好吧，我们将不得不给制裁更多的时间来发挥作用。
I'm just like, you don't have more time.
我只是想，你没有更多的时间了。
It's like, no, I think we'll give it a couple of years and, you know, we'll see where we are.
就好像，不，我想我们会花几年时间，你知道，我们会看看我们的处境。
And it's like, in a couple of years, they could have a thermonuclear weapon on an ICBM.
就好像，几年后，他们就可以在洲际弹道导弹上拥有热核武器。
Maybe it won't be all worked out.
也许事情不会全部解决。
Maybe there will still be some problems with it, but I don't think you've got a couple of years, chief.
也许仍然会出现一些问题，但我认为你已经没有几年的时间了，长官。
I was kind of beating him up, and he was taking it pretty well.
我有点殴打他，他却很好地接受了。
And I think the reason he was taking it pretty well is because he's a government official.
我认为他之所以能接受得很好，是因为他是一名政府官员。
He's got a job to do.
他有工作要做。
And I think he kind of knows that they don't actually know what the heck they're doing.
我认为他知道他们实际上并不知道自己在做什么。
But what kind of government trots out before its citizens and says, hey, you know this really tough problem that terrifies you?
但是什么样的政府会在其公民面前小跑并说，嘿，你知道这个让你害怕的非常棘手的问题吗？
We don't have the slightest idea what to do.
我们完全不知道该怎么办。
Nobody does that.
没有人这样做。
Earlier this month, when North Korea, for the first time, tested an actual intercontinental ballistic missile that could reach Alaska, it was all over the news.
本月早些时候，当朝鲜首次测试一枚可以到达阿拉斯加的真正的洲际弹道导弹时，这件事成为了各大新闻的焦点。
Everyone was kind of freaking out.
每个人都有点惊慌失措。
North Korea's recent test launch of a missile that could reach the US.
朝鲜最近试射了一枚可以到达美国的导弹。
This is North Korea's most successful missile test--
这是朝鲜最成功的导弹试验——
--which Kim Jong Un called a birthday gift to the US.
——金正恩称之为给美国的生日礼物。
But regular listeners to the podcast kind of knew it was coming because just two months ago, North Korea had tested a missile that went pretty damn far-- 1,300 miles up into space and back.
但播客的常客们都知道它即将到来，因为就在两个月前，朝鲜测试了一枚导弹，该导弹的射程相当远——1,300 英里的高度，进入太空并返回。
So when the ICBM test actually came, I figured Jeffrey's reaction would be a shrug.
因此，当洲际弹道导弹测试真正到来时，我认为杰弗里的反应会是耸耸肩。
Like, we told you so.
就像我们告诉过你的那样。
But he was kind of shocked, too.
但他也有点震惊。
Even though he knew it was coming, just the reality of it was shocking.
尽管他知道它即将到来，但它的现实却令人震惊。
This one can hit the United States with a nuclear weapon.
这个可以用核武器打击美国。
People keep saying Alaska, but that's people making themselves feel better.
人们总是说阿拉斯加，但那是人们让自己感觉更好。
It demonstrated the range to go to Alaska.
它展示了前往阿拉斯加的范围。
That doesn't mean that that is its maximum range.
这并不意味着这是其最大范围。
We've been modeling it, and it looks a lot better than that.
我们一直在对其进行建模，它看起来比那要好得多。
Meaning it can go further?
意思是还可以走得更远吗？
Jeffrey Lewis Yeah, it probably can hit New York.
杰弗里·刘易斯（Jeffrey Lewis）是的，它可能会袭击纽约。
Yeah.
是的。
This last one went seven times higher than the ISS.
最后一个比国际空间站高七倍。
Seven times higher than the International Space Station?
比国际空间站高七倍？
Yeah, seven times higher.
是的，高了七倍。
David Kestenbaum So this was significantly further than that other one?
David Kestenbaum 那么这比另一处明显更远？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
This is a hell of a missile.
这是一枚地狱般的导弹。
It seems like North Korea might just keep doing this-- setting off bigger and bigger atomic bombs, launching huge missiles.
朝鲜似乎可能会继续这样做——引爆越来越大的原子弹，发射巨大的导弹。
Talking to Jeffrey, I realized I had this question.
在与杰弗里交谈时，我意识到我有这个问题。
What exactly does North Korea want?
朝鲜究竟想要什么？
North Korea wants to be treated like a normal country.
朝鲜希望得到像正常国家一样的对待。
Meaning what?
意思是什么？
Jeffrey Lewis Meaning diplomatic recognition and no sanctions and Kim Jong Un gets invited to state dinners.
杰弗里·刘易斯（Jeffrey Lewis）表示外交承认和不制裁，金正恩被邀请参加国宴。
They just want to be-- they want the Kim family to be treated like a legitimate leadership.
他们只是想——他们希望金氏家族被视为合法的领导层。
And that is the impossible spot we are in.
这就是我们所处的不可能的境地。
This is a government the United Nations Human Rights Council says is guilty of crimes against humanity, including extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, rape.
联合国人权理事会称这个政府犯有反人类罪，包括灭绝、谋杀、奴役、酷刑、监禁和强奸。
The list goes on.
这样的例子还在继续。
Kim Jong Un's people are starving.
金正恩的人民正在挨饿。
They're cut off from the outside world.
他们与外界隔绝了。
We just ignore all that?
我们就忽略这一切吗？
Invite him to the White House for a state dinner?
邀请他到白宫参加国宴？
Jeffrey comes down firmly on one side of that question.
杰弗里坚定地站在这个问题的一边。
I think the answer is you have to do it, right?
我认为答案是你必须这样做，对吗？
That if you're not going to topple the regime-- and there would be all kinds of reasons you would not want to do that-- then you've just got to suck it up and do it.
如果你不打算推翻政权——而且会有各种各样的理由让你不想这么做——那么你就必须忍气吞声并去做。
But the politics of it stink.
但它的政治性很糟糕。
And you can see why no president is willing to do it.
你可以明白为什么没有总统愿意这样做。
Yeah.
是的。
That's just like-- I mean, that's just terrible.
这就像——我的意思是，那太可怕了。
Yeah.
是的。
Welcome to my world!
欢迎来到我的世界！
So I settle for things like, hey, how about this?
所以我满足于这样的事情，嘿，这个怎么样？
How about we knock off some of the military exercises and we just see if they'll stop testing nuclear weapons and missiles?
我们取消一些军事演习，看看他们是否会停止测试核武器和导弹怎么样？
How about we do that?
我们这样做怎么样？
It would just try to avoid a nuclear war for the next couple of years.
它只是试图在未来几年内避免核战争。
And even then people are like, we can't stop military exercises.
即便如此，人们也会说，我们无法停止军事演习。
You're giving into a terrible dictator.
你正在向一个可怕的独裁者屈服。
Well, yeah, I guess I kind of am.
嗯，是的，我想我是这样的。
Do you think you're more comfortable with the idea of being blackmailed than other people?
您认为您比其他人更能接受被勒索的想法吗？
Yeah, of course I am.
是的，我当然是。
Blackmail is this very specific word that has a very specific moral connotation to it.
勒索是一个非常具体的词，具有非常具体的道德内涵。
But the reality is that the North Koreans have interests, and they are very ruthless in pursuing those interests.
但现实是朝鲜人有利益，而且他们在追求这些利益时非常无情。
And as unpleasant as they are-- and they're unpleasant-- we don't have the ability to make them go away.
尽管它们令人不快——而且它们确实令人不快——但我们没有能力让它们消失。
After nuclear weapons came along in World War II, there were two views.
第二次世界大战中核武器出现后，出现了两种观点。
One was that, hey, these are just bigger bombs.
一是，嘿，这些只是更大的炸弹。
But the other view was, no, these are an entirely different category of weapon.
但另一种观点是，不，这些是完全不同类别的武器。
You build them precisely so that no one will use them.
你精确地构建它们，这样就没有人会使用它们。
Which is a strange idea, but it's worked so far, and presumably it would be the same with North Korea.
这是一个奇怪的想法，但到目前为止它是有效的，而且朝鲜的情况想必也是如此。
In a way, where you stand on this issue comes down to the question, how crazy do you think Kim Jong Un is?
在某种程度上，你在这个问题上的立场归结为这样一个问题：你认为金正恩有多疯狂？
Jeffrey says he does not stay up at night worrying about North Korea launching a nuclear missile at a US city.
杰弗里说，他不会彻夜担心朝鲜向美国城市发射核导弹。
From everything he's seen, Kim Jong Un seems to be pretty rational.
从他所看到的一切来看，金正恩似乎相当理性。
Ruthless and determined to stay in power, but rational.
冷酷无情，决心继续掌权，但又理性。
All the tests seem well-planned out, like the countries before that have pursued nuclear weapons.
所有的试验似乎都是精心策划的，就像之前追求核武器的国家一样。
The Map of Death, him posing with the disco ball, that all seems very calculated, an attempt to show the world and the people of North Korea that he is in charge and he's not going away.
死亡地图，他与迪斯科舞会合影，这一切似乎都是精心策划的，试图向世界和朝鲜人民表明他是掌权者，他不会离开。
Jeffrey says the real people in danger here are probably not us.
杰弗里说，这里真正处于危险之中的人可能不是我们。
It's the people stuck living in North Korea.
这是那些被困在朝鲜的人们。
That is another thing nuclear weapons can do.
这是核武器可以做的另一件事。
They change the diplomatic calculus in a way, I think, that means the bad guys sometimes win.
我认为，他们在某种程度上改变了外交计算，这意味着坏人有时会获胜。
David Kestenbaum is one of the producers of our program.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆是我们节目的制作人之一。
The podcast Arms Control Wonk does seem to have at least a few listeners in North Korea.
播客“军控专家”似乎在朝鲜至少有一些听众。
Their episode "Another North Korean Nuclear Test" was downloaded five times from there.
他们的剧集“另一次朝鲜核试验”从那里被下载了五次。
Coming up, Jon Ronson gets real with people who are specifically paid not to get real.
接下来，乔恩·罗森 (Jon Ronson) 会与那些专门付钱让他们不变得真实的人变得真实。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, To Be Real.
今天的节目是《真实》。
We have stories about people breaking through the polite, boring, everyday fog of social acceptability and polite denial of things that none of us really want to face and getting real.
我们有这样的故事，讲述人们冲破礼貌、无聊、日常的社会接受度的迷雾，礼貌地拒绝我们谁都不想面对的事情，变得真实。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, The Lie Becomes the Truth.
第二幕，谎言变成真相。
A couple of weeks ago, when we did an episode of our show on magicians, researching what's going on in that world, I was fascinated by a few magicians who take the premise of magic, that it's all about deception, and try to stand that on its head to get to something utterly real, unfaked, emotional, truthful.
几周前，当我们制作一集关于魔术师的节目，研究那个世界上正在发生的事情时，我对一些魔术师着迷，他们以魔术为前提，认为一切都是关于欺骗，并试图颠倒过来，得到一些完全真实、不伪造、情感化、真实的东西。
There are two magicians in particular I was interested in.
我对两位魔术师特别感兴趣。
The first was David Blaine, who I think you might know who this is.
第一个是大卫·布莱恩，我想你可能知道他是谁。
He's been doing TV specials for 20 years.
他制作电视特别节目已经有 20 年了。
And I was hanging around Blaine one night at dinner at a restaurant, and there was this moment where a friend of his said to him something like, David, you've told me that some of your tricks these days aren't even tricks, like when you eat glass.
有一天晚上，我在一家餐馆吃晚饭时和布莱恩在一起，有那么一刻，他的一位朋友对他说，大卫，你告诉我，这些天你的一些把戏甚至都不是把戏，比如你吃玻璃的时候。
And Blaine was like, yeah.
布莱恩说，是的。
And he picks up the nearest wine glass at the table-- this was not his glass; somebody else had been drinking out of it-- and he poured their wine into another glass on the table.
他拿起桌上最近的酒杯——这不是他的酒杯；这不是他的酒杯。有人正在用它喝酒——他把他们的酒倒进桌子上的另一个杯子里。
And then he raised the wine glass to his mouth and bit off a chunk of the glass.
然后他把酒杯举到嘴边，咬掉了一块酒杯。
And then he chewed, like, really big chews, like, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp.
然后他咀嚼，就像，非常大的咀嚼，就像，咀嚼，咀嚼，咀嚼，咀嚼，咀嚼。
And it took a little time, actually, like, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp.
实际上，花了一点时间，就像，咀嚼，咀嚼，咀嚼，咀嚼，咀嚼。
And then he took a huge drink of water and he swallowed.
然后他喝了一大口水，咽了下去。
And then he opened his mouth to show us, you know, all gone.
然后他张开嘴向我们展示，你知道，一切都消失了。
It's not a trick.
这不是一个诡计。
He just eats glass, grinds it down to little specks, I guess, and swallows it.
我猜他只是吃玻璃，把它磨成小斑点，然后吞下去。
He said the inside of your mouth gets a little cut up, but it's not too bad.
他说你的嘴里面有点裂开，但还不错。
And there's a scene that they filmed for Blaine's most recent TV special where he's sitting in a dentist chair and he talks to his dentist about what this is doing to his teeth.
他们为布莱恩最近的电视特别节目拍摄了一个场景，布莱恩坐在牙医椅子上，和他的牙医谈论这对他的牙齿造成的影响。
Because I feel hot and cold much stronger now.
因为我现在感觉冷热更强烈了。
Well, that's because glass is not a normal food that you're supposed to eat.
嗯，那是因为玻璃不是你应该吃的普通食物。
So have you been eating this on your right side of your mouth more than your left?
那么，您用右侧嘴吃这个的次数多于左侧嘴吗？
Yeah, only on the right side.
是的，只有右边。
That's so weird.
那太奇怪了。
You've worn your teeth down on the right much worse than the left.
你右边的牙齿磨损得比左边严重得多。
Yeah, it started shifting to the right because the left was hurting so much.
是的，它开始向右移动，因为左边太疼了。
Well, your right is much worse than your left.
嗯，你的右边比左边差很多。
This is totally worn away.
这已经完全磨损了。
All the enamel's gone from the tooth and his nerve is almost exposed.
牙齿上的牙釉质全部消失了，神经几乎暴露在外。
He didn't believe me-- Dentist I didn't believe him, either.
他不相信我——牙医我也不相信他。
--in the beginning.
——一开始。
Dentist I really didn't.
牙医我真的没有。
I didn't believe him.
我不相信他。
I've never seen anyone do it, and I thought it was a h-- I thought there was some sort of trick to it, but he's eating glass.
我从来没有见过有人这样做，我认为这是一个……我认为这其中有某种技巧，但他正在吃玻璃。
So is eating glass a thing that you know that you only can do a certain number of times in your life because you'll gradually grind--
那么，吃玻璃是不是一件你知道一生中只能做一定次数的事情，因为你会逐渐磨碎——
Like I was saying to the dentist, every time I drink or eat everything hot and cold, it's a nightmare.
就像我对牙医说的那样，每次我喝或吃冷热的东西时，这都是一场噩梦。
So it's a trick like, I get to do this a certain number of times left in my life, so I've got to choose my spots.
所以这是一个技巧，我一生中还可以做一定次数的事情，所以我必须选择我的位置。
No. No. No, no. I still do it whenever I want.
不，不，不，不。只要我愿意，我仍然会这样做。
You still do it?
你还做吗？
Really?
真的吗？
David Blaine Yeah.
大卫·布莱恩 是的。
I wouldn't really want to do with that glass because it's so thick.
我真的不想用那个玻璃，因为它太厚了。
No, but I've done it with way thicker glasses than that.
不，但我用比那厚得多的眼镜做到了这一点。
But my teeth are so bad now that I prefer wineglasses, like delicate ones.
但我现在的牙齿太糟糕了，所以我更喜欢酒杯，比如精致的酒杯。
And this is the kind of magic Blaine's been cultivating for years now.
这就是布莱恩多年来一直在培养的魔法。
He still does card tricks and all kinds of regular closeup magic, but he's also doing a bunch of effects that are like eating glass.
他仍然会表演纸牌戏法和各种常规的特写魔术，但他也会做一些像吃玻璃一样的效果。
There's no trick to it.
这没有任何技巧。
He just really does this stuff.
他只是真的做这些事。
It's real.
这是真的。
He was sealed in a box suspended above the Thames River for 44 days.
他被密封在一个悬挂在泰晤士河上方的盒子里44天。
He lived in a block of ice for over 60 hours.
他在冰块里生活了60多个小时。
He held his breath for 17 minutes underwater and then explained his techniques for doing it in a Ted Talk.
他在水下屏住呼吸 17 分钟，然后在 Ted 演讲中解释了他的技巧。
He works on these things for years, trains his body to do this stuff.
他在这些事情上工作了多年，训练他的身体来做这些事情。
And then this funny thing happens.
然后有趣的事情发生了。
Because he's a professional magician, which is to say his job is to deceive people, when he's actually doing these incredible physical feats that aren't tricks, people often think they are.
因为他是一名职业魔术师，也就是说他的工作就是欺骗人们，当他实际上在做这些令人难以置信的身体壮举时，人们常常认为它们不是戏法。
Like he's caught a bullet in his mouth on stage-- a real bullet fired from a real gun.
就像他在舞台上嘴里接住一颗子弹一样——一颗真正的子弹是从真枪里射出的。
He caught it in this metal cup that he held in his mouth, filmed the bullet traveling in slow motion, filmed his friends seeming actually upset with him for even trying this, and still some people think, nah, that's not real.
他用嘴里的金属杯接住了子弹，拍摄了子弹以慢动作行进的镜头，拍摄了他的朋友们似乎因为他尝试这样做而对他感到不满的镜头，但仍然有人认为，不，这不是真的。
And there's this one moment.
还有这一刻。
There's a video of this online, where Blaine makes use of this confusion over what is real and what is not real kind of brilliantly.
网上有一段视频，布莱恩巧妙地利用了这种对真实与非真实的混淆。
Yeah, could we just watch that together and--
是的，我们可以一起看吗-
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass --just narrate what's happening?
Ira Glass——请叙述一下发生了什么？
Because it's such an amazing thing.
因为这是一件非常奇妙的事情。
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
In the video, Blaine is sitting down at a little table with Ricky Gervais, the comedian and actor.
在视频中，布莱恩和喜剧演员兼演员瑞奇·热维斯坐在一张小桌子旁。
And just before what I'm about to play you happens, David Blaine has shown Ricky Gervais how to do this famous trick called "needle through arm." And to be clear, that's a trick.
就在我要扮演你的事情发生之前，大卫·布莱恩向瑞奇·热维斯展示了如何完成这个著名的技巧，称为“针穿过手臂”。需要明确的是，这是一个技巧。
You're not actually putting a needle through your arm.
你实际上并没有把针穿过你的手臂。
And David is like, I'm going to teach you to be a magician.
大卫说，我要教你成为一名魔术师。
And then he does the trick with Ricky Gervais' arm.
然后他用 Ricky Gervais 的手臂完成了这个动作。
So Ricky Gervais can see how you can make it look like a needle is going through your arm.
所以 Ricky Gervais 可以看到如何让它看起来像一根针穿过你的手臂。
OK.
好的。
Then Blaine picks up a needle roughly the size of a knitting needle and starts to push the tip of it into his own arm.
然后布莱恩拿起一根大约是织针大小的针，开始将它的尖端推入自己的手臂。
See how the needle looks?
看看针是什么样子的？
See how it looks--
看看它的样子——
Yeah.
是的。
David Blaine --like it's going into the arm?
大卫·布莱恩——就像它进入手臂一样？
You see that?
你看到了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass So this is like a silver needle.
Ira Glass 所以这就像一根银针。
It's like a foot-long--
有一尺长的样子——
Stainless steel, yeah.
不锈钢的，是的。
Ira Glass --stainless steel.
Ira Glass——不锈钢。
And basically, the point of it is going straight--
基本上，重点是直截了当——
Through the bicep.
通过二头肌。
Ira Glass --into your bicep, just the very tip of it.
Ira Glass——进入你的二头肌，就在它的尖端。
And Ricky Gervais is giving you this look like, wh-- wh-- wha?
Ricky Gervais 给你的表情就像是，什——什——什？
See how it really looks-- Ricky Gervais Yeah.
看看它到底是什么样子——Ricky Gervais 是的。
Yeah, it does.
是的，确实如此。
What I love about it is the stillness of it.
我喜欢它的原因是它的宁静。
It's very slow and still.
它非常缓慢而且静止。
And then he comes to life.
然后他就复活了。
Ricky Gervais Oh, n-- what the fuck?
瑞奇·热维斯 噢，这他妈的是什么？
Seriously.
严重地。
This is mental.
这是心理上的。
We're seeing a needle being pushed straight through the middle of my arm.
我们看到一根针直接穿过我的手臂中部。
OK, just to be completely clear here, Blaine is actually pushing a needle through his arm for real.
好吧，为了完全清楚，布莱恩实际上是在用一根针刺穿他的手臂。
There's a way to do this.
有一种方法可以做到这一点。
He's taught himself.
他自学成才。
But there's no blood.
但没有血。
So it looks like a magic trick, but it doesn't make sense that it could be a magic trick because you're clearly seeing it go through the arm.
所以它看起来像一个魔术，但它可能是一个魔术是没有意义的，因为你清楚地看到它穿过手臂。
And he's holding my shoulder, so I couldn't have a fake arm or a prosthetic on.
他扶着我的肩膀，所以我不能戴假臂或假肢。
See how it really looks-- Ricky Gervais So-- sorry, David, seriously.
看看它到底是什么样子——Ricky Gervais 所以——抱歉，大卫，说真的。
Ha-- this isn't a trick.
哈——这不是诡计。
And so the needle is popping out the other side of your arm.
所以针会从你手臂的另一侧弹出。
How the fuck are you-- wait.
你他妈的怎么样——等等。
What you-- what you do you mean, how are you doing it?
你什么——你是什么意思，你是怎么做的？
You've stuck a needle through your fucking arm!
你他妈的手臂被一根针刺穿了！
It looks pretty real, right?
它看起来很真实，对吧？
Ricky Gervais Sorry, I don't understand.
瑞奇·热维斯 抱歉，我不明白。
How is that not real?
这怎么不是真的呢？
What do you mean it looks pretty real?
你说它看起来很真实是什么意思？
It's the same as what I just did to you.
这和我刚才对你做的一样。
What?
什么？
This is all glue?
这都是胶水吗？
Ira Glass What I love about this is that you're being so deadpan, but you're so happy here, you're breaking character and you start to laugh.
Ira Glass：我喜欢的一点是，你面无表情，但你在这里很快乐，你打破了性格，你开始大笑。
You're having trouble not laughing all the way through this video.
看完这个视频你很难不笑出来。
It looks really real, right?
看起来真的很真实，对吧？
Ricky Gervais Is that needle going through your arm?
瑞奇·热维斯 那根针穿过你的手臂了吗？
Well, pull it out and you'll see how it works.
好吧，把它拉出来，你就会看到它是如何工作的。
Pull it.
拉它。
Pull.
拉。
Ira Glass I feel like you're seeing such a naked version of him, you know?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我觉得你看到的是他的裸体版本，你知道吗？
I don't-- that's not-- that's real.
我不——那不是——那是真的。
Sorry, this is real.
抱歉，这是真的。
That's real.
那是真的。
That's not a trick.
这不是一个诡计。
Fucking hell!
他妈的见鬼了！
But your stuff, I feel like more than any magician I've ever seen, I feel like when you do tricks, so much of it seems to be about getting a reaction out of the person, watching the person react to you.
但是你的东西，我觉得比我见过的任何魔术师都更像，我觉得当你表演魔术时，其中很大一部分似乎是为了得到那个人的反应，观察那个人对你的反应。
Yeah, and that's what I search for.
是的，这就是我所寻找的。
That's the thing that I'm looking for more than anything is finding that unfiltered-- that person inside, basically, like the layers are all being peeled away.
这就是我最想要寻找的东西，而不是发现未经过滤的东西——里面的那个人，基本上，就像所有的层都被剥掉了。
They're becoming, like, guard's down, vulnerable.
他们变得就像失去了警惕一样，变得脆弱。
You're seeing a real human being without the covers.
你看到的是一个没有被罩的真实的人。
Oh, David!
哦，大卫！
What have you done?
你做了什么？
Are you a maniac?
你是个疯子吗？
Why would you?
你为什么要这么做？
Why would you do that?
你为什么要这么做？
So Blaine loves getting that reaction from people.
所以布莱恩喜欢从人们那里得到这种反应。
But interestingly, he says, when he does these physical feats, when he catches the bullet, when he holds his breath under water, when he lives in a box for weeks, he says in those moments, he feels like he's just as bare, in front of the audience, as Ricky Gervais is in that video.
但有趣的是，他说，当他完成这些身体壮举时，当他接住子弹时，当他在水下屏住呼吸时，当他在盒子里生活数周时，他说，在那些时刻，他感觉自己在观众面前就像瑞奇热维斯在视频中一样赤裸裸。
And I think part of that is what I like about the bullet catch.
我认为部分原因是我喜欢子弹捕捉。
It's like you're dropping all of your defenses and you're exposed in front of the audience.
就好像你放弃了所有的防御，暴露在观众面前。
You're like, here's this thing.
你就像，这就是这个东西。
I have to do what I have to do, but I'm exposed.
我必须做我必须做的事，但我暴露了。
I'm vulnerable, and I'm not bullshitting you right now.
我很脆弱，现在我不会跟你胡说八道。
You're watching me do something that's very real.
你正在看着我做一些非常真实的事情。
There is no lying.
没有说谎。
This is so the opposite of the way I think of magic.
这与我对魔法的看法完全相反。
I think of magic as being so about creating a fake world where things are better than ours because they jump from here to there and they show up.
我认为魔法就是创造一个虚假的世界，那里的事物比我们的世界更好，因为它们从这里跳到那里然后出现。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
It never occurred to me of like, oh, the whole point for you would be--
我从来没有想过，哦，对你来说，重点是——
The opposite.
相反。
Ira Glass --that you get to see this real, raw emotion in these people, and then, when you're doing the stunts, that they get to see that in you.
艾拉·格拉斯——你可以在这些人身上看到这种真实、原始的情感，然后，当你表演特技时，他们也可以在你身上看到这种情感。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it's like you're not protected.
是的，就像你没有受到保护一样。
You're not covered.
你没有被覆盖。
You're not hidden.
你没有隐藏。
And as a magician, you're always covered up.
作为一名魔术师，你总是被掩盖起来。
You're always hiding everything, right?
你总是隐藏一切，对吧？
That's what magic is.
这就是魔法。
You're powerful and almighty, but to me, the interesting part of a magician is not that part.
你很强大，无所不能，但对我来说，魔术师的有趣之处并不是那部分。
It's the exposure.
这就是曝光度。
It's like him being vulnerable and open in front of the audience because that's what we really care about.
就像他在观众面前表现出脆弱和开放，因为这才是我们真正关心的。
Researching that magic episode, I went to see a lot of magic.
在研究那个魔术插曲时，我看到了很多魔术。
David Copperfield, Penn & Teller, Criss Angel, Derren Brown, Mac King, Dan White.
大卫·科波菲尔、佩恩与特勒、克里斯·安吉尔、达伦·布朗、麦克·金、丹·怀特。
And my favorite thing I saw was done by a magician who, like Blaine, is trying something different with magic than most magicians do and going for something that is more real.
我最喜欢看到的事情是由一位魔术师完成的，他像布莱恩一样，正在尝试与大多数魔术师不同的魔术，并追求更真实的东西。
The magician's name is Derek DelGaudio.
这位魔术师的名字叫德里克·德尔高迪奥。
He's a close-up magician who gets awarded those prizes where magicians vote on who's the best in the world.
他是一位特写魔术师，他获得了魔术师投票选出世界上最好的魔术师的奖项。
He's invented a bunch of diabolical ways to shuffle and deal cards that give him incredible control of where cards are in the deck and let him do some mind-blowing stuff.
他发明了一系列可怕的洗牌和发牌方式，使他能够难以置信地控制牌在牌堆中的位置，并让他做一些令人兴奋的事情。
But his new show isn't about that at all.
但他的新剧根本不是这个。
I talked to him about it.
我和他谈过这件事。
Derek's a baby-faced guy in his early 30s with a careful, precise manner on stage and off.
德里克是个三十岁出头的娃娃脸小伙子，台上台下都小心谨慎。
A guy who is especially interesting to talk to when he starts complaining about stuff which he does entertainingly and well.
当一个人开始抱怨他做得很有趣且做得很好的事情时，与他交谈特别有趣。
For instance, this is him talking about how people view magic.
例如，这是他在谈论人们如何看待魔法。
There's got to be a reason that people use the word "magician" as like the highest compliment.
人们使用“魔术师”这个词作为最高的赞美肯定是有原因的。
Oh, you should taste this guy's food.
哦，你应该尝尝这个家伙的食物。
He's a magician in the kitchen.
他是厨房里的魔术师。
Or, oh, you should see him on the basketball court.
或者，哦，你应该在篮球场上看到他。
The guy's a magician out there.
这家伙是一位魔术师。
Oh, he's a magician.
哦，他是个魔术师。
It's like, oh, Jesus, really?
就像，哦，耶稣，真的吗？
He's a mag-- like, an actual magician?
他是一本杂志——就像一个真正的魔术师？
Like, oh, god, you know?
就像，哦，上帝，你知道吗？
Wait.
等待。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
Why is that it's a positive for everything except for actual magicians?
为什么它对除了真正的魔术师之外的一切都是积极的？
Well, it's because a regular, traditional magic show isn't about anything other than the performer's ability to show you these things.
嗯，这是因为常规的传统魔术表演除了表演者向您展示这些东西的能力之外没有任何其他内容。
What he means by that is that most magic shows aren't about anything.
他的意思是，大多数魔术表演都没有任何意义。
They're just a series of amazing tricks.
它们只是一系列令人惊奇的技巧。
You do a trick.
你使出一招。
They applaud.
他们鼓掌。
You do another trick.
你又做了一个伎俩。
They applaud.
他们鼓掌。
You do another trick.
你又做了一个伎俩。
They applaud.
他们鼓掌。
And this is the thing he's trying to do differently in his new show, which is up in New York right now, called In & Of Itself.
这就是他在他的新节目《In & Of Itself》中试图做的不同的事情，该节目目前正在纽约上演。
He's tried to create a show that is more than just tricks, more than people wondering how'd he do it.
他试图创造一个不仅仅是技巧的节目，也不仅仅是人们想知道他是如何做到的。
He's tried to create a show that's about something.
他试图创作一部关于某件事的节目。
To achieve that, Derek doesn't even get to the first trick till eight or nine minutes in.
为了实现这一目标，德里克甚至在八九分钟后才开始第一招。
And over the course of the show, he tells a series of stories that are sincere and personal in this way that you almost never see in any magic show.
在整个表演过程中，他以这种在任何魔术表演中几乎从未见过的方式讲述了一系列真诚而个人的故事。
There's a story from his childhood about him and his mom.
有一个关于他和他妈妈的童年故事。
And another about something a guy said to him in a bar years ago.
另一个是几年前一个人在酒吧里对他说的话。
And another about the brief period of his life when he worked as a hustler dealing crooked poker games.
另一个是关于他短暂的一生，当时他是一名从事不正当扑克游戏的骗子。
All these stories are about people not seeing him as he really is.
所有这些故事都是关于人们没有看到他真实的样子。
And when I say he's trying to make a show that's about something, that's what the show is actually about.
当我说他正在尝试制作一部关于某事的节目时，这就是该节目实际上的目的。
It's about what it's like when people do not perceive who you really are.
这是关于当人们不认识你的真实身份时的感觉。
And my favorite moment in the show is this moment where everything he's doing comes together-- where what he's saying and the magic and what the audience goes through.
剧中我最喜欢的时刻是他所做的一切都聚集在一起的时刻——他所说的、魔法以及观众所经历的。
And it really does feel like he's invented something new.
确实感觉他发明了一些新东西。
And it gets to the kind of raw feeling David Blaine talks about wanting to achieve in his shows through very different means.
这达到了大卫·布莱恩所说的那种想要通过非常不同的方式在他的节目中实现目标的原始感觉。
Here's what happens.
事情是这样的。
Before the show, when you walk into the theater, there's a wall of cards printed with the words "I am." And then, under "I am," just different things that you might be.
演出前，当你走进剧院时，会看到一面卡片墙，上面印着“我是”。然后，在“我是”之下，你可能会成为不同的人。
A baker, a gardener, troublemaker, truth-teller, the one that got away, extrovert, con artist, idealist, over 1,000 different cards.
面包师、园丁、麻烦制造者、说真话的人、逃脱的人、外向的人、骗子、理想主义者，超过 1,000 张不同的卡片。
And you pick the one you feel describes yourself best and you walk to your seat.
然后你选择你认为最能描述自己的一个，然后走到你的座位上。
And 90 minutes later, at the end of the show about whether people see you for who you really are, Derek says to anybody who took the exercise of picking a card seriously--
90 分钟后，在关于人们是否看到真实的你的节目结束时，德里克对任何认真练习选牌练习的人说——
Maybe you chose something that you feel reflects who you really are, how you'd like to be seen in this world.
也许你选择的东西反映了你的真实身份，以及你希望别人如何看待你。
If you're one of those few people, please stand up.
如果你是这少数人之一，请站起来。
It's not a big theater, about 150 seats.
剧院不大，大概有150个座位。
And on this particular night, over 100 people stand.
在这个特别的夜晚，有超过 100 人站着。
And then Derek walks into the audience, walks up to each of those people one at a time, looks right in their eyes, and tells them what they chose.
然后德里克走进观众席，一次一个地走到每一个人面前，直视他们的眼睛，告诉他们他们的选择。
Black sheep of the family.
家族的害群之马。
Derek Delgaudio A good Christian.
德里克·德尔高迪奥 (Derek Delgaudio) 一位优秀的基督徒。
A good Christian.
一个好的基督徒。
Watching him do this, when he tells the people sitting on your row, and the row in front of you, and the row behind you how they see themselves, it makes you look at them differently.
看着他这样做，当他告诉坐在你这一排、你前排和你后排的人如何看待自己时，你会以不同的方式看待他们。
Like, no kidding.
就像，不是开玩笑。
These people who showed up on a weeknight with their backpacks and their work clothes, and suddenly you get this glimpse of something so private.
这些人在工作日的晚上带着背包和工作服出现，突然间你会看到一些如此私密的东西。
It stops feeling like a room of anonymous strangers.
它不再给人一种房间里都是匿名陌生人的感觉。
They look different.
他们看起来不同。
A good parent.
一个好父母。
Derek Delgaudio You're a ray of sunshine.
德里克·德尔高迪奥 你是一缕阳光。
A ray of sunshine.
一缕阳光。
Derek Delgaudio A wallflower.
德里克·德尔高迪奥 (Derek Delgaudio) 壁花。
A wallflower.
壁花。
Derek told me these moments, when he walks up to people and stares in their eyes and tells them something about themselves, it's everything he was hoping the show would do.
德里克告诉我这些时刻，当他走到人们面前，盯着他们的眼睛，告诉他们一些关于自己的事情时，这就是他希望这部剧能做到的一切。
Something about those moments is not about magic.
这些时刻与魔法无关。
It isn't about the trick.
这与技巧无关。
The magic is all in service to this very human thing that's happening.
一切魔法都是为了服务于正在发生的这件非常人性化的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I get emotional, too, just based on people's reactions to it and I see it in their eyes.
我的意思是，我也会情绪化，只是基于人们对此的反应，我从他们的眼中看到了这一点。
And there are some that are truly painful.
有些确实令人痛苦。
One stopped me in my tracks, which was someone saw themselves as a failure.
有一个人阻止了我，那就是有人认为自己是个失败者。
This was a young woman, maybe in her 20s.
这是一位年轻女子，大概二十多岁。
Derek hesitated.
德里克犹豫了。
Then he said it.
然后他就这么说了。
A failure.
失败了。
I mean, I choked up.
我是说，我哽咽了。
There was a pause because you don't ever want to have to call someone a failure.
停顿了一下，因为你不想称某人为失败者。
And that's how they felt like they were in this world and kind of how they felt others saw them and I called them a failure in front of a bunch of strangers.
这就是他们在这个世界上的感觉，也是他们在别人眼中的感觉，我称他们在一群陌生人面前是失败者。
But you hear-- you heard the rest of the audience go, aw.
但是你听到——你听到其他观众都走了，噢。
The woman teared up and sat down.
女子泪流满面，坐了下来。
It's the sort of moment, watching it, all you can think about is her and her life and what that must be about.
在那种时刻，看着它，你所能想到的就是她和她的生活以及那一定是关于什么的。
What you do not think is, how'd he do it?
你想不到的是，他是怎么做到的？
Act Three, Fly Girl.
第三幕，飞翔的女孩。
Quick warning to listeners about this next act.
快速警告听众下一幕。
It's about the pornography business.
这是关于色情业的。
There is nothing explicit in what's about to be said.
即将要说的内容并没有什么明确的内容。
In fact, it's not about sex at all.
事实上，这根本与性无关。
But it's about porn, so if you're listening with kids, take this as your heads up.
但这是关于色情内容的，所以如果你和孩子们一起听，请注意这一点。
The porn business is a world of fakiness-- fake bodies, fake excitement, people acting out other people's fantasies.
色情行业是一个充满虚假的世界——虚假的身体、虚假的兴奋、人们按照别人的幻想行事。
But I heard about this one huge arena in that business where things get very, very real.
但我听说这个行业有一个巨大的舞台，在那里事情变得非常非常真实。
I heard about it from Jon Ronson, who's on our show now and then.
我从乔恩·罗森那里听说了这件事，他时不时地出现在我们的节目中。
For over a year, he's been working on a podcast that traces how one man changed the porn industry when he aggressively applied modern internet technology-- I mean, keywords, search term optimization-- to porn, at a set of websites, including the most popular porn site in the world-- 75 million visitors a day-- called PornHub.
一年多来，他一直在制作一个播客，追踪一个人如何改变色情行业，当时他在一系列网站上积极地将现代互联网技术（我的意思是关键字、搜索词优化）应用于色情内容，其中包括世界上最受欢迎的色情网站（每天有 7500 万访问者）PornHub。
In his podcast, Jon Ronson documents all kinds of things that happened to all kinds of people because of how PornHub and this man and free porn changed pornography.
在他的播客中，乔恩·罗森 (Jon Ronson) 记录了由于 PornHub 和这个人和免费色情如何改变色情业而发生在各种人身上的各种事情。
And one big, obvious consequence of the success of PornHub and other free online sites is that so much pornography is given away for free.
PornHub 和其他免费在线网站的成功带来的一个明显的重大后果是，免费提供了大量色情内容。
The people who make porn videos have a much harder time making a living.
制作色情视频的人谋生要困难得多。
And one way he learned that they supplement their income is by creating custom videos.
他了解到他们补充收入的一种方式是制作定制视频。
Here's Jon.
这是乔恩。
I've been on porn sites for a year, and nearly everyone I spoke with, performers and producers and crew, is also in the bespoke porn business now.
我在色情网站上工作已经一年了，几乎所有与我交谈过的人，包括表演者、制片人和工作人员，现在也都从事定制色情业务。
They construct custom films to the detailed specifications of individual fans, contouring into life entire porn films for just one viewer.
他们根据个别粉丝的详细规格制作定制电影，为一位观众塑造出完整的色情电影。
These are producers like Dan and Rhiannon of Anatomik Media.
他们是 Anatomik Media 的 Dan 和 Rhiannon 等制作人。
They're a married couple in their 40s, upbeat.
他们是一对40多岁的夫妻，性格开朗。
They love their work.
他们热爱他们的工作。
They send us their idea or a script, and we'll take it and tell them how much it's going to cost and what it's going to take, how long it'll take, who's available for it.
他们向我们发送他们的想法或剧本，我们会接受并告诉他们需要多少费用、需要什么、需要多长时间以及谁可以承担。
And we make it for them.
我们为他们做这件事。
Yeah.
是的。
They're very much involved in the casting process, where we hold their hand pretty much the whole way through it.
他们非常积极地参与选角过程，我们几乎全程握着他们的手。
Dan pulls out his laptop and deliberates on which videos to show me.
丹拿出笔记本电脑，考虑要给我看哪些视频。
Some of them are crazy because they're just so normal.
他们中的一些人很疯狂，因为他们太正常了。
Yeah, the flyswatter.
是的，苍蝇拍。
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
The flyswatter.
苍蝇拍。
Dan He wanted to watch a girl swatting flies.
何丹想看一个女孩拍苍蝇。
She remains fully clothed throughout the entire video.
在整个视频中，她一直穿着衣服。
She's in the kitchen.
她在厨房里。
And she's getting frustrated because there's flies everywhere.
她很沮丧，因为到处都是苍蝇。
That really is all it is-- a woman becoming exasperated because there's a fly.
事情就是这样——一个女人因为有一只苍蝇而变得恼怒。
And to make matters worse, she has misplaced her flyswatter.
更糟糕的是，她把苍蝇拍放错了地方。
So now she's looking around for a flyswatter.
所以现在她正在四处寻找苍蝇拍。
She is, yes.
她是，是的。
That's the rest of the video is just swatting flies.
视频的其余部分只是拍苍蝇。
Did you ask the client what it was about flyswatting?
你有没有问过客户，拍苍蝇是怎么回事？
Nope.
没有。
Rhiannon No. Sometimes you have to wonder.
Rhiannon 不。有时你不得不想。
Maybe he watched his mom swat flies?
也许他看到他妈妈拍苍蝇？
Ooh.
哦。
Probably so.
大概是这样。
They play me another.
他们又给我玩了一次。
A woman sits in a kid's paddling pool.
一名妇女坐在儿童戏水池中。
She's wearing a tank top and shorts and swimming goggles.
她穿着背心和短裤，戴着泳镜。
She's chewing gum.
她在嚼口香糖。
And then it begins.
然后事情就开始了。
Huge industrial-sized tubs of condiments are poured over her head.
巨大的工业大小的调味品桶被倒在她的头上。
Mustard, relish, soured cream.
芥末，佐料，酸奶油。
Gallons of it.
加仑。
[NERVOUSLY LAUGHING] Jon Ronson It's like someone being slimed on Nickelodeon.
[紧张地笑] Jon Ronson 这就像有人在 Nickelodeon 上被抹黑了。
That was so much warmer than I thought it was going to be.
这比我想象的要温暖得多。
In this case, Dan and Rhiannon know a little about the man who asked for this.
在这种情况下，丹和莱安农对提出这个要求的人有些了解。
Well, they know one thing about him.
好吧，他们知道他的一件事。
He owns a restaurant in Georgia, where presumably he deals with mustard and ketchup every day and has to avoid situations like this.
他在佐治亚州拥有一家餐馆，想必他每天都会处理芥末和番茄酱，因此必须避免类似的情况。
Then Rhiannon gives Dan a look and says they really should play me the stamp video, which turns out to be the most intriguing of all because it raises so many questions.
然后莱安农看了丹一眼，说他们真的应该给我播放邮票视频，事实证明这是最有趣的，因为它提出了很多问题。
The client is a man in Norway that Dan and Rhiannon call Stamps Man.
客户是一位挪威人，丹和瑞安农称他为“邮票人”。
He has had this stamp collection for 40 years.
他收藏这本邮票已经有 40 年了。
I don't even know-- we didn't ask how much it was worth or anything.
我什至不知道——我们没有问它值多少钱或其他什么。
We just accepted it and burned it.
我们只是接受了它并烧毁了它。
Yeah.
是的。
He wanted the girls-- Dan He wanted it destroyed.
他想要那些女孩——但何希望它被毁掉。
He wanted the girls to have fun destroying it, and they did.
他希望女孩们能够享受摧毁它的乐趣，她们做到了。
And he loves it.
他喜欢它。
He said he watches it every day.
他说他每天都会看。
No. Dan I mean, he explained a lot about how it was important to him to see these girls kind of humiliate him for having a stamp collection.
不，丹，我的意思是，他解释了很多关于看到这些女孩因为他收集邮票而羞辱他对他来说是多么重要。
Can we watch a bit of it?
我们可以看一点吗？
Rhiannon Sure.
莱安农 当然。
The video fades in on a book of stamps lying on a living room floor.
视频逐渐消失在客厅地板上的一本邮票上。
Three young women enter wearing school uniform.
三名年轻女子穿着校服进来。
They complain about it being hot outside and wonder if they should take a shower.
他们抱怨外面很热，想知道是否应该洗澡。
Then they notice the stamp collection, and one thing leads to another.
然后他们注意到了集邮，一件事又引发了另一件事。
They see his stamp collection spread out on the floor and they start making fun of it.
他们看到他的集邮摊在地板上，并开始取笑它。
[GASPS] Don't do that!
[喘气]别这样做！
Don't you dare do that!
你不敢这么做！
He cares about this so much.
他非常关心这个。
You know what?
你知道吗？
He would rather look at his stamp collection than have sex with me.
他宁愿看他的集邮也不愿和我发生性关系。
Well, then all the more reason to go get rid of it.
好吧，那就更有理由摆脱它了。
One of the women starts stomping on the stamps.
其中一名妇女开始踩邮票。
He wanted that specifically.
他特别想要那个。
Dan Wait till they get to the fire.
丹 等他们到达火边。
So you sure you don't want to burn at least one page?
那么您确定不想至少烧掉一页吗？
Burn it?
烧掉它吗？
Girl Say goodbye, stamps, baby.
女孩 说再见，邮票，宝贝。
Bye, stamps.
再见，邮票。
Rhiannon In real life, these girls, actually they felt sort of bad about it.
Rhiannon 在现实生活中，这些女孩实际上对此感到有点难过。
They felt really bad.
他们感觉非常糟糕。
But we kept trying to assure them, no, this is really what he wants.
但我们一直试图向他们保证，不，这确实是他想要的。
Burn!
烧伤！
Burn!
烧伤！
Burn!
烧伤！
Burn!
烧伤！
Jon Ronson After several months emailing Stamps Man, we finally managed to convince him to tell us his story.
乔恩·罗森 (Jon Ronson) 在给邮票人发了几个月的电子邮件后，我们终于说服他告诉我们他的故事。
It turns out that, after years obsessively collecting stamps and spending way too much money on it, he started to feel depressed and isolated.
事实证明，多年来痴迷于收集邮票并在上面花了太多钱后，他开始感到沮丧和孤立。
So he went to see a psychologist who told him stamp collecting is a ridiculous hobby because it's so solitary.
于是他去看了一位心理学家，心理学家告诉他集邮是一种荒谬的爱好，因为它是如此孤独。
And so now he pays porn people to destroy his stamps.
所以现在他付钱给色情人士毁掉他的邮票。
He says he's had 10 books of stamps, and he's been destroying them in this way one at a time.
他说他有十本邮票，他一直用这种方式一次一本地销毁它们。
And he's only got one book left, he says.
他说，他只剩下一本书了。
He's deciding which custom producer to send it to.
他正在决定将其发送给哪个定制生产商。
And after that, he's all done.
在那之后，他就一切都完成了。
I thought I was done, too.
我也以为我已经完了。
I thought I'd learned all there was to learn about custom videos.
我以为我已经了解了有关定制视频的所有知识。
But then I heard one more time from Dan and Rhiannon.
但后来我又听到丹和莱安农的声音。
Something had happened.
发生了一些事情。
They'd just received an email.
他们刚刚收到一封电子邮件。
It was about 4:00 or 5:00 AM.
当时大约是凌晨 4:00 或 5:00。
Dan received the email and read it.
丹收到了电子邮件并阅读了它。
I kind of wanted to wake her up and show her because it's the most unique request we've had.
我有点想叫醒她并向她展示，因为这是我们遇到过的最独特的要求。
The email was requesting a porn star to sit cross-legged on the floor, fully clothed, and say into the camera, you are loved.
这封电子邮件要求一名色情明星盘腿坐在地板上，穿着整齐，对着镜头说，你被爱着。
Things are bad now, but they won't always be.
现在情况很糟糕，但情况不会永远如此。
Suicide is not the answer.
自杀不是答案。
It was just really heavy.
它真的很重。
And I wanted to make sure he's OK.
我想确保他没事。
We basically handled it like a normal request and gave him model options and everything like that and told them we can shoot it really soon.
我们基本上像正常请求一样处理它，并给了他模型选项和类似的一切，并告诉他们我们很快就能拍摄。
And we haven't heard back.
我们还没有收到回复。
Dan and Rhiannon decided to shoot it anyway and send it to him.
丹和莱安农决定无论如何都要拍摄它并发送给他。
The location that we're going to shoot at, there's so much natural light and it's up on the top of the hill, and the blue sky and everything, and everything is white-- white marble, white curtains, just bright white and brilliant.
我们要拍摄的地点，有如此多的自然光，而且在山顶上，还有蓝天和一切，一切都是白色的——白色的大理石，白色的窗帘，明亮的白色和辉煌。
I don't know.
我不知道。
We want it to just look beautiful.
我们希望它看起来很漂亮。
It's the day of the shoot.
那天是拍摄的日子。
Dan and Rhiannon and the porn performer, Riley Reyes, convene at the location.
丹、瑞安农和色情演员莱利·雷耶斯在现场会面。
It's a sitting room in a mansion.
这是一座豪宅的客厅。
There's a window facing a mountain and the valley and, probably because of all the recent rains in LA, everything outside is verdant.
有一扇面向山脉和山谷的窗户，可能是因为洛杉矶最近下雨的缘故，外面的一切都是翠绿的。
It looks like heaven from a film.
它看起来就像电影中的天堂。
Riley is 28.
莱利28岁了。
She's wearing bright pink jeggings and a bright blue tank top.
她穿着亮粉色紧身裤和亮蓝色背心。
Dan and Rhiannon aren't charging the man.
丹和莱安农没有指控该男子。
I'll call him Milo.
我就叫他米洛吧。
They're not charging him for obvious reasons.
他们没有向他收费，原因显而易见。
And also because he still hasn't responded to their email.
还因为他还没有回复他们的电子邮件。
But they are paying Riley just like they would in a normal custom shoot.
但他们付给莱利的钱就像他们在正常的定制拍摄中一样。
Riley is nervous.
莱利很紧张。
Are you OK?
你还好吗？
Riley Reyes Mhm.
莱利·雷耶斯 嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
It's just that I think lots of people have lost friends this way, right?
只是我想很多人都是这样失去朋友的，对吧？
So it makes me think-- I hope he likes it.
所以这让我思考——我希望他喜欢。
OK.
好的。
I'm going to gather myself.
我要集合起来。
That's OK.
没关系。
Do whatever you need, sweet pea.
做你需要做的一切，甜豌豆。
I think it's safe to say that most people needing comfort wouldn't reach out to custom fetish porn producers, who the outside world might think of as cynical operators.
我认为可以肯定地说，大多数需要安慰的人不会接触定制恋物癖色情制作人，外界可能认为他们是愤世嫉俗的经营者。
But having been here a year, it makes so much sense to me.
但来到这里已经一年了，这对我来说意义重大。
Custom producers are kind of like a family of outsiders themselves, and they often respond to their clients in the most sincere and heartfelt ways.
定制生产商本身就像一个外人家庭，他们常常以最真诚、最衷心的方式回应客户。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
Rhiannon OK.
莱安农 好的。
Camera ready.
相机准备好了。
Yes?
是的？
It's Riley.
是莱利。
You're going to be OK.
你会没事的。
It might not be great for a little bit, but it's all going to turn out OK.
可能暂时不太好，但一切都会好起来的。
Life has its ups and downs.
人生有起有落。
I've been low.
我已经很低了。
I've been really low.
我的心情真的很低落
I've-- I've thought about dying in the past.
我过去曾想过死亡。
And at the time, it seemed-- it seemed like the only thing that made any sense.
在当时，这似乎是唯一有意义的事情。
But I came back up out of the ashes, and I came back stronger.
但我从灰烬中重新站起来，并且变得更加坚强。
And every day now, I'm able-- able to see these little bits of beauty in the world around me and in the people who open their hearts to me.
现在的每一天，我都能在我周围的世界以及向我敞开心扉的人们身上看到这些美丽的点点滴滴。
And that's-- and that's what's worth it.
这就是——这就是值得的。
Soon they'll send this video to Milo, even though they've heard nothing from him.
很快他们就会把这段视频发送给米洛，尽管他们没有收到他的任何消息。
It's a leap of faith.
这是信仰的飞跃。
Everyone's just hoping that he doesn't do this to get off on it in some way.
每个人都希望他这样做不是为了以某种方式摆脱困境。
Everyone is also hoping that the reason why he's gone quiet is just because he's regretful or embarrassed or he's changed his mind.
大家也希望他之所以沉默，只是因为后悔、尴尬或者改变了主意。
But then the video will arrive, and he'll watch it and maybe, in some small way, it will help.
但随后视频就会到达，他会观看，也许在某种程度上会有所帮助。
Ira Glass Jon Ronson.
艾拉·格拉斯·乔恩·朗森。
That story produced by Lina Misitzis with original music by Joel Ronson.
该故事由 Lina Misitzis 制作，Joel Ronson 创作音乐。
The brand-new podcast that it's part of, an audible original series called The Butterfly Effect, will premiere at the end of July.
它属于一个名为“蝴蝶效应”的有声原创系列的全新播客，将于七月底首播。
You can preorder right now at audible.com/butterflyeffect.
您现在可以在 audible.com/butterflyeffect 进行预订。
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo.
图片来源：Ira Glass 嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Stephanie Foo 制作的。
Our staff includes Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Jonathan Menjivar, BA Parker, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Woo.
我们的员工包括 Elna Baker、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Jonathan Menjivar、BA Parker、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Woo。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
David Blaine is touring with all kinds of physical feats like we talked about in Act Two today.
大卫·布莱恩 (David Blaine) 正在巡演，展现出我们今天在第二幕中谈到的各种身体壮举。
To see when he's coming to your town, davidblaine.com.
要了解他何时来到您的城镇，请访问 davidblaine.com。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, I told him, the way I see it, I won't have to start thinking about, your know, Botox or any other aging stuff for a couple of years, at least.
你知道，我告诉他，在我看来，至少在几年内我不必开始考虑肉毒杆菌或任何其他抗衰老药物。
And he said--
他说——
Uh, I don't think you've got a couple of years, chief.
呃，我认为你已经没有几年的时间了，长官。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。