619: The Magic Show - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #619 | December 4, 2020 619: The Magic Show Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 619 集 | 2020 年 12 月 4 日 619：魔术表演 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass I have no idea what gave me the confidence to start performing magic shows for money when I was 12.
序言 Ira Glass 我不知道是什么给了我在 12 岁时开始表演魔术表演赚钱的信心。
I wasn't especially good.
我本来就不是特别好。
I hadn't been doing it for long.
我这样做的时间不长。
I'm not sure I'd ever been to a magic show.
我不确定我是否看过魔术表演。
I was a beginner.
我是一个初学者。
I was a real beginner.
我是一个真正的初学者。
I'd been given one of those magic kits like you give a little kid that they sell at toy stores.
我得到了一套魔法套件，就像玩具店里卖的给小孩子的一样。
And then I went to the Baltimore County Public Library on Liberty Road, and found some books on magic in the library.
然后我去了自由路的巴尔的摩县公共图书馆，在图书馆里找到了一些关于魔法的书籍。
And it blew my mind, these books.
这些书让我大吃一惊。
These incredible secrets were just like sitting there, right there in the shelves, in the open.
这些令人难以置信的秘密就像坐在那儿，就在架子上，在露天。
Anybody could look at them.
任何人都可以看它们。
I could not understand why anybody was in any of the other aisles.
我不明白为什么有人在其他过道里。
I just felt like, oh, they don't know.
我只是觉得，哦，他们不知道。
They don't know these are here.
他们不知道这些在这里。
Before long, I was advertising in the Baltimore Jewish Times.
不久之后，我在《巴尔的摩犹太时报》上刊登广告。
I was booking shows that paid $5.
我预订的节目支付了 5 美元。
I believe the price was in the ad.
我相信广告上有价格。
These were kids' birthday parties.
这些是孩子们的生日聚会。
My dad would drive me.
我爸爸会开车送我。
The kids' parents would drive me home.
孩子们的父母会开车送我回家。
After a few months of this, I got a call from a real magician-- like an adult who actually knew what he was doing-- who had noticed somebody undercutting his prices.
几个月后，我接到了一位真正的魔术师的电话——就像一个真正知道自己在做什么的成年人——他注意到有人在降价。
Who are you, he asked.
你是谁，他问道。
It wasn't hostile.
这并没有敌意。
The magic world in Baltimore was small, and everybody knew everybody.
巴尔的摩的魔法世界很小，每个人都认识每个人。
So to have somebody new show up, like, he was just curious.
所以让新人出现，他只是好奇。
And generous.
而且慷慨。
He let me know that there was a magic store downtown on Charles Street where guys got together.
他让我知道市中心的查尔斯街有一家魔术店，人们经常在那里聚会。
Yogi Magic Mart.
瑜伽魔术市场。
On Saturdays, the place would be crowded with any magicians who did not have gigs that day.
每逢周六，这个地方就会挤满当天没有演出的魔术师。
And they would smoke, and show each other moves.
他们会抽烟，并互相展示动作。
An old guy named Dantini with a huge white beard used to go there.
一位名叫丹蒂尼的长着大白胡子的老人过去常去那里。
He would give you one of his special coins that was stamped with the words Dantini.
他会给你一枚他的特殊硬币，上面刻有“丹蒂尼”字样。
He knew Houdini.
他认识胡迪尼。
When you bought a trick, they took you to this special table in the back room and sat you down.
当你买了一张戏法后，他们会把你带到后面房间里这张特殊的桌子上，让你坐下。
And taught it to you, one on one.
并一对一地教给你。
As I remember it, this was done with kindness, with helpful tips-- how to tilt your hand, how to turn your body, when to pause for effect.
我记得，这是出于善意，并提供了有用的提示——如何倾斜你的手，如何转动你的身体，何时暂停以获得效果。
It was exciting to be taken seriously by these men.
被这些人认真对待真是令人兴奋。
Sharing these secrets.
分享这些秘密。
I did my act from 7th grade through my sophomore year of high school, and so many times it got kind of carved into me.
我从七年级一直到高中二年级都在演戏，很多时候它已经深深地烙在了我的心里。
I could have probably performed it word for word and move for move up through my 30s.
我可能可以逐字逐句地表演，并一步一步地演到三十多岁。
But now, I'd have a hard time.
但现在，我就很难受了。
I still regularly have dreams that I'm supposed to do the act.
我仍然经常梦见我应该这样做。
I had one two weeks ago.
我两周前就有过一次。
We decided to do this week's radio show about magic when I learned that David Kestenbaum, one of my coworkers here, was also a kid magician.
当我得知我的一位同事大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）也是一名儿童魔术师时，我们决定制作本周有关魔术的广播节目。
And also played birthday parties for years, starting when he was in fourth grade.
从他四年级开始，他也连续多年参加生日聚会。
And the moment we sat down in the studio to talk about this, like, it only took about a minute to be comparing card moves with the four aces.
当我们坐在工作室谈论这个问题时，只花了大约一分钟的时间来比较纸牌动作与四张 A。
Yeah, one of them is face up, right?
是的，其中一个是正面朝上的，对吗？
But you can still go one, two, three, four.
但你仍然可以去一、二、三、四。
All I know is that you're doing a double lift on that first ace.
我只知道你在第一张 A 上做了双举。
Then you got to do an Elmsley count, though.
不过，然后你必须进行埃尔姆斯利计数。
And very quickly, we just started comparing gear.
很快，我们就开始比较装备。
The appearing cane seemed sort of dangerous.
出现的手杖看起来有些危险。
Doesn't it sort of s-- have a mechanis--
难道它不是有某种机制吗？
Don't say it, don't say it!
别说了，别说了！
Ira Glass I won't.
艾拉·格拉斯 我不会。
But doesn't it have a thing where you can get hurt?
但它不是有可能让你受伤的东西吗？
Yes, it can be dangerous.
是的，这可能很危险。
The metal one can be dangerous.
金属的可能很危险。
I had the plastic one.
我有的是塑料的。
It was cheaper.
它更便宜。
So when I was 12 years old, I had business cards.
所以当我12岁的时候，我就有了名片。
I was a 12-year-old with business cards.
我当时 12 岁，手里拿着名片。
And mine said on it my name and "Magical Mystifier."
我的上面写着我的名字和“魔法神秘者”。
Well, my business card and said "Master Magician." Which is like, it seems like it's some level like a black belt level or something.
嗯，我的名片上写着“魔术师大师”。就像，看起来像是黑带级别之类的级别。
You know, like a certified master magician or something.
你知道的，比如经过认证的魔术师之类的。
But--
但是——
Yeah.
是的。
No. David Kestenbaum Yeah, but it's pretty funny.
不，大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）是的，但这很有趣。
Like, imagine a 12-year-old kid walks up to you and hands you a business card that says "Master Magician."
就像，想象一个 12 岁的孩子走到你面前，递给你一张名片，上面写着“魔术师大师”。
It would be more amazing if they walked up to you and handed you a card that said "Certified Plumber."
如果他们走到您面前并递给您一张写有“认证水管工”的卡片，那就更令人惊奇了。
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass So David and I were talking about this stuff.
[笑] Ira Glass 所以大卫和我正在谈论这些东西。
And he said this thing that honestly had never crossed my mind ever in my life until he brought it up.
老实说，在他提起之前，我从来没有想过这件事。
We were talking about whether we were any good.
我们讨论的是我们是否优秀。
I always thought I was fine.
我一直以为我很好。
And then it occurred to me that maybe the reason I got hired wasn't that I was any good.
然后我突然想到，也许我被录用的原因并不是因为我有任何优秀。
It was that I was 10 years old.
那是我10岁的时候。
And it was probably adorable to have this little magician come over in his three-piece suit and do tricks for your kid's birthday.
让这位小魔术师穿着三件套西装过来为您孩子的生日表演魔术，这可能很可爱。
I feel like this is obviously true.
我觉得这显然是真的。
And I'm finding it so upsetting.
我觉得这很令人沮丧。
Because what I realized is, I thought I was the one who was in charge of the situation during the magic show.
因为我意识到，我以为我才是魔术表演期间掌控局势的人。
And I was controlling everybody's minds with my mind and my magickry.
我用我的思想和魔法控制着每个人的思想。
And what you're saying is actually that the joke was on me.
你所说的实际上是我在开玩笑。
Like I was the entertainment, but not in a way that I understood.
就像我是一种娱乐，但不是以我理解的方式。
It's got to be true, right?
这一定是真的，对吧？
Like, that's clearly, to me as an adult-- if you're like hey, there's this little kid who'll come over and do magic for your party, I'm like, done.
就像，这显然对我作为一个成年人来说 - 如果你像嘿，有一个小孩会过来为你的聚会施展魔法，我就像，完成了。
Fact is, when I usually think about my years doing magic shows, the biggest feeling I have about it is I feel embarrassment.
事实上，我平时回想自己这些年做魔术的经历，最大的感受就是尴尬。
There's like a cloud of embarrassment that keeps me from staring at it too closely.
一股尴尬的气氛让我不敢太仔细地盯着它。
Like, I know I was doing these store-bought tricks and beginners-level sleight of hand in a tuxedo and bow tie and a cape with a bright red lining.
就像，我知道我穿着燕尾服、领结和带有鲜红色衬里的斗篷，正在表演这些商店买来的技巧和初学者水平的技巧。
And what I remember of the act, some of it is pretty corny.
我对这个行为的记忆中，有些内容相当陈词滥调。
But at the same time, I can say for sure, like, audiences were engaged.
但与此同时，我可以肯定地说，观众很投入。
They were engaged from beginning to end.
他们从头到尾都订婚了。
Like, people were not restless.
就像，人们并没有焦躁不安。
And I know I got laughs.
我知道我得到了笑声。
And I thought I was good.
我以为我很好。
Like, it seemed like I was good.
好像，我好像还不错。
So was I?
我也是吗？
[LAUGHS] After talking to David, I realized I do not have a clear picture of this at all.
[笑]与大卫交谈后，我意识到我对此根本没有清晰的认识。
And you know, there are things about our past that we'll never fully get into proper perspective.
你知道，关于我们的过去，有些事情我们永远无法完全正确地看待。
But this?
但这？
This is a completely answerable question.
这是一个完全可以回答的问题。
So I called Judy Meltzer, who was a good friend of my mom's when my mom was alive, who lived around the corner from us.
于是我给朱迪·梅尔泽打了电话，她是我妈妈在世时的好朋友，就住在我们家附近。
And who booked me not once but twice for her daughter Amy's birthdays.
她为她女儿艾米的生日预订了两次，而不是一次。
First of all, I mean, you did it for quite a time.
首先，我的意思是，你已经这样做了很长一段时间了。
Because one time-- I mean, I wanted to get your magic tricks for your bar mitzvah.
因为有一次——我的意思是，我想在你的成人礼上得到你的魔术。
Which you almost didn't have, as I recall.
我记得你几乎没有。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Judy Meltzer Anyway, and I went to the magic store-- your mother gave me the name of it-- downtown, the one you frequented.
朱迪·梅尔泽 不管怎样，我去了市中心的一家魔法商店——你妈妈给我起了这个名字——你经常光顾的那家。
And you were very good at it.
你非常擅长。
Well, this is the thing I was trying to get a fix on, is was I bad?
好吧，这就是我试图解决的问题，是我做得不好吗？
No, are you kidding me?
不，你在开玩笑吗？
You think I would have-- of course not!
你认为我会——当然不会！
You were great.
你很棒。
You did a terrific job.
你做得很棒。
You liked it a lot.
你非常喜欢它。
You think you're doing something different now?
你认为你现在正在做一些不同的事情吗？
[LAUGHS] Yes, I am doing something different now.
[笑]是的，我现在正在做一些不同的事情。
No, you're not.
不，你不是。
No, you're not.
不，你不是。
Oh, no. I'm sorry.
哦，不。对不起。
I don't buy that.
我不买那个。
OK.
好的。
You think what you want, I'll think what I want.
你想你所想，我也想我所想。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
You're saying when you hear me on the radio, it reminds you of my magic act?
你是说当你在广播中听到我的声音时，会让你想起我的魔术表演？
It reminds me of who you have always been, as far as I'm concerned.
就我而言，它让我想起你一直是谁。
You were good.
你很好。
And not only that, you had a spiel, of course, that went with it.
不仅如此，当然，你还有随之而来的长篇大论。
Wasn't that you just kind of did a trick and stuck it out there.
你不就是耍了个把戏然后把它放在那里吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Judy Meltzer Like that's it, and you-- no. You had a nice flowing reper-- what do you call it?
朱迪·梅尔策：就是这样，而你——不。你的表演非常流畅——你怎么称呼它？
A patter.
啪嗒啪嗒。
Judy Meltzer Patter?
朱迪·梅尔策·帕特？
OK, thank you.
好的，谢谢。
Yeah.
是的。
You did that.
你做到了。
But I know you were very professional, with the outfit and everything.
但我知道你非常专业，无论是服装还是一切。
Yeah.
是的。
I wore a cape.
我穿着斗篷。
Judy Meltzer Yes!
朱迪·梅尔策 是的！
By the way, you didn't just wear the cape.
顺便说一句，你不只是穿着斗篷。
You used it.
你用过它。
[LAUGHS] What do you mean?
[笑]你什么意思？
What did I do with the cape?
我对斗篷做了什么？
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
You know, like you would flip the side back.
你知道，就像你将侧面翻转回来一样。
And it was a very professional way of wearing the cape.
这是一种非常专业的斗篷穿着方式。
Yeah, I loved that cape.
是的，我喜欢那件斗篷。
Judy Meltzer [LAUGHS] Yes.
朱迪·梅尔泽[笑]是的。
OK.
好的。
Reassuring.
令人放心。
But after David and I realized our common conjuring careers as Magical Mystifier and Master Magician, we were talking, and we realized that so much of our pleasure in magic was just knowing how the tricks were done.
但当大卫和我意识到我们共同的魔术职业是魔术师和魔术师之后，我们交谈起来，我们意识到我们对魔术的大部分乐趣只是知道魔术是如何完成的。
The equipment itself was kind of mesmerizing, with its false chambers and flaps and secrets that the audience didn't know.
设备本身有点令人着迷，有假室、襟翼和观众不知道的秘密。
Every trick had a principle behind it.
每个技巧背后都有一个原则。
And it was cool to think about the principles.
思考这些原则很酷。
The magician Ricky Jay once said this thing in an interview.
魔术师瑞奇杰伊曾经在接受采访时说过这样的话。
He said that there are many effects in magic where what's going on behind the scenes is actually much more interesting than what the audience sees.
他说，魔术中有很多效果，幕后发生的事情实际上比观众看到的更有趣。
And as a magician, you sort of want to say, if only you could know what's really happening here.
作为一名魔术师，你可能想说，如果你能知道这里到底发生了什么就好了。
In putting today's show together, David and I dove into a bunch of stories with actual master magicians.
在整理今天的节目时，大卫和我深入探讨了一系列与真正的魔术师大师的故事。
And I have to say, the most exciting moments in all those stories are about that.
我不得不说，所有这些故事中最激动人心的时刻都与此有关。
About how intricate and psychological and ingenious what they do is.
关于他们所做的事情是多么复杂、心理和巧妙。
And even as we've been writing and editing the stories over and over, I've gotten that feeling of excitement about it that I used to get handling the props or practicing the cups and balls.
即使我们一遍又一遍地编写和编辑故事，我也感受到了那种兴奋的感觉，就像我以前处理道具或练习杯子和球一样。
And that's today's show.
这就是今天的节目。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act one-- the oldest trick in the book.
第一幕——书中最古老的把戏。
It can take years to come up with a magic trick.
想出一个魔术可能需要数年的时间。
Several magicians told me this.
几个魔术师告诉我这个。
Which made me wonder, what are they doing all that time?
这让我想知道，他们一直在做什么？
What takes years to make something that's just a couple of minutes long?
是什么需要花费数年时间才能制作出只有几分钟长的东西？
And this is the part of magic I really knew nothing about from my time as a kid magician.
这是我小时候对魔术一无所知的部分。
I never invented a trick.
我从来没有发明过任何技巧。
Didn't even occur to me.
我什至没有想到。
So I wanted to see it.
所以我想看看。
You know how on MTV Cribs, when they would do the house tours and get to the bedrooms, guys would always say, this is where the magic happens.
你知道在 MTV Cribs 上，当他们进行房屋参观并进入卧室时，人们总是会说，这就是魔法发生的地方。
And, OK, very different context.
而且，好吧，背景非常不同。
But the act of inventing a magic trick, that's actually where the magic happens.
但发明魔术的行为实际上就是魔术发生的地方。
And I wanted to finally witness the dark beating heart of where magic comes from.
我想最终见证魔法的黑暗跳动之心。
I wanted a magician to explain step by step what takes years.
我想要一位魔术师一步步解释什么需要花费数年的时间。
And the one magician who seemed not just interested, but actually kind of eager to come forward and do that was Teller of Penn and Teller.
佩恩和泰勒的泰勒是一位看起来不仅感兴趣，而且实际上渴望挺身而出的魔术师。
Teller is the smaller one, the one who never speaks in the act.
特勒是个子较小的一个，在表演中从不说话。
But of course, in real life, he talks.
但当然，在现实生活中，他会说话。
And he liked the idea of explaining how a trick is made.
他喜欢解释魔术是如何制作的。
He once said in a lecture, because--
他曾经在一次演讲中说道，因为——
If you understand a good magic trick-- and I mean really understand it, right down to the mechanics at the core of its psychology-- the magic trick gets better, not worse.
如果你理解一个好的魔术——我的意思是真正理解它，深入到其心理学核心的机制——那么魔术就会变得更好，而不是更糟。
The trick he agreed to explain here on the radio is one that he loves to perform.
他同意在广播中解释的魔术是他喜欢表演的魔术。
He performs a lot.
他表演很多。
And he started working on it years ago, looking to invent something new for Penn and Teller's live stage show.
他几年前就开始研究这个问题，希望为佩恩和泰勒的现场舞台表演发明一些新东西。
There was this old effect that he was intrigued by.
他对这种古老的效应很感兴趣。
It seemed like there might be something in it that he could adapt for himself.
似乎这里面有什么东西可以让他自己适应。
It's not unusual for a magician like Teller to take some secret from a very old trick, and repurpose it into something original.
对于像特勒这样的魔术师来说，从一个非常古老的魔术中获取一些秘密，并将其重新利用成原创的东西并不罕见。
This particular one came from a magic book written in the 1920s and '30s by a guy in Nebraska named David P Abbott, an amateur magician who made his living as a loanshark.
这本特别的魔术来自内布拉斯加州一位名叫戴维·P·阿博特 (David P Abbott) 的人在 20 世纪 20 年代和 30 年代写的一本魔术书，他是一位业余魔术师，以放高利贷为生。
He was famous among magicians back then.
他在当时的魔术师中很有名。
He'd invent these incredible effects and perform them, but only in his living room.
他发明了这些令人难以置信的效果并表演它们，但仅限于他的客厅。
He thought that was the best place for magic.
他认为那是魔法最好的地方。
Houdini, Thurston, Keller-- all the big names of magic would come to this guy's little house in Omaha, Nebraska to see these great shows.
胡迪尼、瑟斯顿、凯勒——所有魔术界的大腕都会来到这个家伙在内布拉斯加州奥马哈的小房子里观看这些精彩的表演。
And towards the end of his life, when people would come to his house, he would show you the book that he had that was all of his magic explained in detail.
在他生命的最后阶段，当人们来到他家时，他会向你展示他拥有的那本书，里面详细解释了他所有的魔法。
He died.
他死了。
The book wasn't published.
这本书没有出版。
His wife said she would publish it.
他的妻子说她会出版它。
She died two years later.
两年后她去世了。
The house was sold.
房子被卖了。
The book had vanished.
那本书已经消失了。
It was a legend in a certain corner of the magic world, this lost book with these incredible secrets.
这是魔法世界某个角落的传说，这本失落的书里藏着这些不可思议的秘密。
One publisher went on a decades long quest to locate the book.
一位出版商花了数十年的时间寻找这本书。
Found pieces of it, and then finally, a full manuscript in four legal-size loose-leaf binders, 40 years later in 1974, and put it into print for the first time.
40 年后的 1974 年，我找到了其中的一些片段，最终找到了一份完整的手稿，装在四张法定尺寸的活页活页夹中，并首次付印。
And the trick that attracted Teller was this golden ball, six inches across like a small cannonball, that Abbott could float around his living room.
吸引泰勒的技巧是这个金色的球，六英寸宽，像一个小炮弹，阿博特可以在他的客厅里漂浮。
That was supposed to be one of the most beautiful routines in magic.
这应该是魔术中最美丽的套路之一。
That's exactly Teller's taste.
这正是泰勒的品味。
Teller loves doing silent, beautiful tricks alone on stage.
特勒喜欢独自在舞台上表演无声而美丽的特技。
And solo bits like this are in every Penn and Teller stage show.
像这样的独奏片段在佩恩和特勒的每一场舞台表演中都有。
His most famous trick is a pantomime, with a rose, its shadow, and a carving knife.
他最著名的戏法是哑剧，其中有一朵玫瑰、它的影子和一把切肉刀。
I like stripping things down to the absolute simplicity.
我喜欢把事情简化到绝对简单。
And it seems like a ball and a hoop and a person is about as simple as you can get.
看起来就像一个球、一个篮筐和一个人，这是你能想到的最简单的事情。
So, he got to work.
所以，他开始工作了。
Teller And I started by taking the original David P Abbott book, this long lost book, and I set this book on a music stand in my library at home.
Teller 我首先拿起了 David P Abbott 的原著，这本失传已久的书，然后我把这本书放在家里图书馆的乐谱架上。
And I learned this.
我学到了这一点。
Let me just pause on this page.
让我在这一页上暂停一下。
So this is a page which has seven photographs.
这是一个有七张照片的页面。
And is that Abbott?
那是雅培吗？
That's David P Abbott, yes.
是的，那是大卫·P·阿博特。
He looks a bit like a white-haired fireplug.
他看上去有点像一个白发火龙。
And he's in a black suit.
而且他穿着黑色西装。
And he's moving a hoop over a ball.
他正在将一个篮筐移过一个球。
And there's little arrows indicating which way you turn it, this way and that.
还有一些小箭头指示你转动它的方向，向这边转动，向那边转动。
Yes.
是的。
The level of detail that he provided was astounding.
他提供的详细程度令人震惊。
So I mean, I feel like he is speaking directly to me.
所以我的意思是，我觉得他是在直接对我说话。
He tells you how to make the papier-mache that you make the ball out of!
他告诉你如何制作用来制作球的纸型！
You know, strips of newspaper, x wide.
你知道，x 宽的报纸条。
And let me let me show you some of the beautiful, beautiful floating moves that he created.
让我向您展示他创造的一些美丽的漂浮动作。
OK, we're standing up and walking across the stage.
好的，我们站起来走过舞台。
Maybe I should have mentioned this earlier-- Teller and my coworker David Kestenbaum and I are doing this interview on the stage where Penn and Teller do their magic show five nights a week in Las Vegas, in a big theater at the Rio Hotel.
也许我应该早点提到这一点——特勒和我的同事大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆和我正在拉斯维加斯里约酒店大剧院的佩恩和特勒每周五个晚上进行魔术表演的舞台上进行这次采访。
And we're going to have to go quite a distance to get this to work.
我们必须走很长的路才能让它发挥作用。
Teller picks up the ball and the thread.
出纳员拿起球和线。
He asked us not to say anything here on the radio about the details of where the thread goes or how exactly it interacts with the ball.
他要求我们不要在广播中谈论任何关于线的走向或它与球如何相互作用的细节。
But there's still a lot I can say.
但我还是有很多话要说。
So picture a guy and a hoop and a ball and a very long thread on a stage.
想象一下舞台上有一个人和一个篮筐、一个球和一根很长的线。
The early days of this, I'm learning moves to make the ball float.
早期，我正在学习让球漂浮的动作。
And now I'll say, the ball is floating up the string toward you, and then from your left hand to your right hand.
现在我要说的是，球沿着绳子向你飘去，然后从你的左手飘到你的右手。
You're actually catching the sound of it, which is not normally audible to an audience member.
您实际上听到了它的声音，而观众通常听不到这种声音。
Actually, can I just record-- can you just do it--
事实上，我可以录音吗——你可以直接录音吗——
[STRING GLIDE SOUND] Ira Glass Teller gestures at the ball like he's summoning it with his hand.
[弦乐滑行声] Ira Glass Teller 对着球做了个手势，就像他用手召唤它一样。
And it glides along the thread to him.
它沿着线滑向他。
That's the sound you're hearing.
这就是你听到的声音。
And what's mind-bending is that David and I can actually see that he's tilting the thread downwards, and that's why it slides towards him.
令人费解的是，大卫和我实际上可以看到他正在向下倾斜线，这就是线滑向他的原因。
Like we can see the ball is on a thread.
就像我们可以看到球在一根线上。
We can see how it's done.
我们可以看到它是如何完成的。
We hear it sliding along.
我们听到它滑动的声音。
God, that's pretty.
天哪，那太漂亮了。
Ira Glass And at the same time, it totally looks like he's this sorcerer who enchanted this inanimate object into obeying him.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：同时，他看起来完全像是一个巫师，用魔法让这个无生命的物体服从他。
Dude, that is so beautiful actually when you see the thread.
伙计，当你看到这条线时，它真的很漂亮。
Yes, it is.
是的。
I mean, here's one of David P Abbott's moves that he invented.
我的意思是，这是大卫·P·阿博特 (David P Abbott) 发明的动作之一。
The ball is floating from hand to hand without really any movement on the part of either of the hands, just by an intricate way that the thread is interlaced in the fingers.
球从一只手飘到另一只手，任何一只手都没有任何运动，只是通过一种复杂的方式将线交错在手指上。
He then takes the hoop and spins it around the ball in various ways, which makes it look like there can't possibly be a thread there.
然后，他拿起篮筐，以各种方式围绕球旋转，这使得篮筐看起来不可能有一根线。
But of course, we can see the thread.
但当然，我们可以看到线索。
Can I say that's crazy?
我能说这很疯狂吗？
That's so convincing.
这太有说服力了
Your brain really cannot sort that out.
你的大脑确实无法解决这个问题。
Your brain cannot sort this out.
你的大脑无法解决这个问题。
It's visual double-talk.
这是视觉上的双重对话。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And I'm sitting here and I'm doing it, and it's still fooling my brain.
我坐在这里，正在做这件事，但它仍然在愚弄我的大脑。
Which I totally remember from being a kid magician, and practicing the thumb palm and the French drop and all the other sleight of hand in front of a mirror.
我完全记得当我还是个小魔术师时，我在镜子前练习拇指掌、法式落球以及所有其他技巧。
If you do it right, it fools you.
如果你做对了，它就会愚弄你。
It feels amazing to you.
对你来说这感觉太棒了。
And that's how you know the trick is working.
这就是你知道这个技巧正在发挥作用的方式。
So this was Teller's first step toward inventing his own version of the trick.
所以这是泰勒发明他自己的魔术版本的第一步。
He spent months mastering David P Abbott's moves from 100 years ago.
他花了几个月的时间掌握了 100 年前 David P Abbott 的动作。
And started to figure out what else he could make the ball do on his own.
并开始思考他还能让球自己做些什么。
He would practice everyday.
他每天都会练习。
He took the ball and thread on vacation with him, and videotaped himself to see how the moves looked.
他在度假时带着球和线，并给自己录像，看看动作如何。
Oh, no-- well, I'll show you this one.
哦，不——好吧，我给你看这个。
Here I am in a cabin in Utah in my pajamas.
我穿着睡衣在犹他州的一间小屋里。
[LAUGHS] I was just obsessed with it.
[笑]我只是沉迷于它。
He took a trip to Toronto where a magician friend taught him the version of the floating ball routine that he did.
他去了一趟多伦多，一位魔术师朋友教了他浮球动作的版本。
And then when Teller was there, he tried this thing, just kind of messing around.
然后当特勒在那里的时候，他尝试了这个东西，只是搞乱了。
He put the ball on a bench, and lifted one end of the bench.
他把球放在长凳上，然后抬起长凳的一端。
And then made the ball roll up the bench.
然后让球滚上板凳。
And then later, he had this thought-- that the floating ball was actually more interesting to watch when it's not floating.
后来，他有了这样的想法——浮球其实在不浮的时候看起来更有趣。
When it's just this ball that's somehow alive and rolling around.
当只有这个球在某种程度上还活着并且在滚动时。
It's weirder and it's more mysterious.
更奇怪，更神秘。
It's less clear what's propelling it.
目前尚不清楚是什么推动了它。
It began to cross my mind that no one had ever done a floating ball that didn't float.
我开始想到，从来没有人做过不漂浮的浮球。
And I was jubilant.
我很高兴。
I thought, oh boy, I finally got an idea!
我想，天哪，我终于有了一个主意！
I finally got an original idea to go with this method.
我终于有了一个采用这种方法的原创想法。
The next step was to put something together into a routine-- like an actual trick as it might be performed.
下一步是将一些东西组合成一个例程——就像一个可能表演的实际技巧一样。
This involved a tremendous amount of invention, making up all kinds of new moves on his own for the floating ball that does not float.
这涉及到大量的发明创造，他自己为不漂浮的浮球想出了各种新动作。
Here's a move where I kick it across the stage and it lands softly.
这是一个动作，我把它踢过舞台，它轻轻落地。
Let me just describe what you're doing.
让我描述一下你在做什么。
So you're kicking the ball and it's going maybe 12 feet out there.
所以你踢球，球可能会飞出 12 英尺。
What you would think in real life, if you kick a ball, the ball doesn't stop until it runs out of momentum.
你在现实生活中会想到，如果你踢一个球，球直到失去动量才会停止。
So this is suddenly that ball stops, stops dead.
所以这就是球突然停了下来，停了下来。
Unbelievably difficult.
难以置信的困难。
It's me using leverage and slack and all sorts of things like that.
是我利用杠杆和松弛以及诸如此类的东西。
He spent months inventing these moves at night, alone in the theater, after they finished their shows.
当演出结束后，他花了几个月的时间在晚上独自在剧院里发明这些动作。
And all this was preparation to show his partner, Penn, who at this point hadn't seen anything.
而这一切都是为了向他的搭档佩恩做准备，而佩恩此时什么也没有看到。
It was a lot of preparation.
这是很多准备工作。
All sorts of things.
各种各样的事情。
Like he'd been practicing with a silver ball, like David P Abbott's mysterious floating gold orb.
就像他一直在用银球练习一样，就像大卫·P·阿博特神秘的漂浮金球一样。
But now he replaced it with a kid's ball that bounced, the size of a kickball.
但现在他用一个能弹跳的儿童球代替了它，大小与踢球一样。
Because magic is more magical if you do it with real stuff that people know.
因为如果你用人们知道的真实的东西来表演，魔法就会变得更加神奇。
And he built a set.
他建立了一套。
It was chain-link fence, because he thought, where do you see a kid's ball?
那是铁丝网，因为他想，你在哪里看到一个孩子的球？
At a playground.
在游乐场。
But, he says, when he put the chain-link fence up on stage, it suddenly felt like the set of Godspell.
但是，他说，当他把铁丝网放在舞台上时，突然感觉就像是《Godspell》的布景。
And he ditched it.
他抛弃了它。
David and I asked Teller, why didn't you just show Penn something rough?
大卫和我问特勒，你为什么不直接给佩恩看一些粗暴的东西呢？
Just something with the moves you'd been inventing.
只是一些你发明的动作。
And he said, no. no, no. That's the thing about magic.
他说，不。不，不。这就是魔法的事情。
You can't look at a half-finished piece of magic and know whether it's good or not.
你不可能只看一个半成品的魔法就知道它好不好。
It has to be perfect before you can evaluate whether it's good.
必须是完美的，才能评价它好不好。
I mean, magic is a fantastically meticulous form.
我的意思是，魔法是一种极其细致的形式。
You forgive other forms.
你原谅其他形式。
A musician misses a note, moves on, fine.
音乐家错过了一个音符，继续前进，很好。
He'll come to the conclusion of the piece.
他将会得出这篇文章的结论。
Magic is an on/off switch.
魔法是一个开/关开关。
Either it looks like a miracle or it's stupid.
要么它看起来像一个奇迹，要么它就是愚蠢的。
So I spent up-- I would guess it was probably 11 months or so, putting together a routine of moves that I invented with the non-floating floating ball.
所以我花了——我猜大概是 11 个月左右的时间，把我用非浮动浮球发明的一套动作组合在一起。
And I showed it to Penn.
我把它拿给佩恩看。
Describe the act that he saw.
描述他所看到的行为。
Like what was it?
就像那是什么？
I believe that what he saw was very, very artsy.
我相信他所看到的非常非常有艺术气息。
It was very lonely.
非常孤独。
It was very sweetly melancholy.
这是非常甜蜜的忧郁。
I was trying to recreate that sense of solitude in a theater late at night.
我试图在深夜在剧院重现那种孤独感。
And he sat way back in the theater, way towards the back, so that he could get a wide stage view of it.
他坐在剧院的后面，非常靠后，这样他就可以看到广阔的舞台视野。
I finished it.
我完成了。
And he quietly got up and left the theater.
然后他悄悄起身，离开了剧院。
And I thought, hmm, that's probably not a good sign.
我想，嗯，这可能不是一个好兆头。
So I went back to his dressing room, and we talked for a while.
于是我回到他的更衣室，我们聊了一会儿。
I remember being in the dressing room and being really, really, really wicked uncomfortable.
我记得当时在更衣室里，真的非常非常不舒服。
This, of course, is Teller's stage partner, Penn Jillette.
这当然是泰勒的舞台搭档佩恩·吉莱特。
There was nothing about it that grabbed me.
没有什么能吸引我。
I thought it was technically good as a juggling bit, I thought it was OK.
我认为这在技术上很好，就像杂耍一样，我认为还可以。
Juggling, he means the mechanics of moving the ball around.
杂耍，他指的是移动球的技巧。
It was the first time we really had something that outside of the overlap.
这是我们第一次真正拥有重叠之外的东西。
To get into the Penn and Teller Show, it has to be an idea that appeals to both Penn and me.
要进入佩恩和特勒秀，它必须是一个对佩恩和我都有吸引力的想法。
And he said-- and to his credit, he said that he thought it was way too Cirque Du Soleil.
他说——值得赞扬的是，他说他认为这太像太阳马戏团了。
It was way too sort of artsy, pretentious.
这实在是太艺术化了，太自命不凡了。
I remember Teller getting a little bit mad at me.
我记得泰勒对我有点生气。
Because I said, what's the idea behind this?
因为我说，这背后的想法是什么？
And he was very offended.
他非常生气。
He was like, well, the idea is the trick.
他说，好吧，这个想法就是窍门。
You know?
你知道？
And I think it hadn't clicked with him because it lacked an essential dramatic idea.
我认为这并没有引起他的注意，因为它缺乏一个基本的戏剧性想法。
Of course, to me, I was all wrapped up in the idea that it was a floating ball that wasn't floating, which isn't a very good idea.
当然，对我来说，我全神贯注于它是一个不漂浮的浮球的想法，这不是一个好主意。
I mean, that's not an idea that communicates to an audience.
我的意思是，这不是一个可以传达给观众的想法。
The next day at Starbucks, they talked about what idea might work with the trick.
第二天，他们在星巴克讨论了哪些想法可能适用于这个技巧。
Penn suggested presenting it as a kind of history piece.
佩恩建议将其作为一种历史作品来呈现。
An old classic with period music.
具有时代音乐的古老经典。
That kind of thing they would do in a magic history conference.
他们会在魔法历史会议上做这种事。
Teller got excited about that.
特勒对此感到兴奋。
Emailed him later, adding to the idea.
后来给他发了电子邮件，补充了这个想法。
Like they'd tell the audience he was using a method from a hundred years ago, without electronic technology and no help from offstage.
就像他们告诉观众他正在使用一百年前的方法一样，没有电子技术，也没有后台的帮助。
Imagining that version of the trick, Penn wrote him back, quote, "From reading this, I've lost a little faith in the idea.
佩恩想象着那个版本的把戏，给他回信说：“读完这篇文章后，我对这个想法失去了一点信心。
I guess we can try this.
我想我们可以试试这个。
But it doesn't seem to bring another level in.
但似乎并没有带来另一个层次。
Maybe we should just do it the way you wanted, and not look for more here.
也许我们应该按照你想要的方式去做，而不是在这里寻找更多。
I'm sure people will like it fine.
我相信人们会喜欢它。
I don't know.
我不知道。
This seems to make a lot of what I didn't like maybe worse.
这似乎让很多我不喜欢的事情变得更糟。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't have to like every bit in the show, that's for sure,"
我不必喜欢节目中的每一点，这是肯定的，”
Teller didn't like that.
泰勒不喜欢这样。
Seemed wrong for Penn to settle.
佩恩的解决方案似乎是错误的。
He got back to work to solve the problem.
他回去工作去解决这个问题。
And here's where making this trick turn from just the mechanics of moving a ball around on a thread to actually thinking through what tells a story, what's engaging, what's fun to watch, what's satisfying.
在这里，这个技巧从仅仅在一根线上移动球的机制转变为真正思考什么在讲述一个故事，什么是引人入胜的，什么是观看有趣的，什么是令人满意的。
And Teller realized one of the things that was missing from the trick.
泰勒意识到这个戏法中缺少的一件事。
He says any magic trick is better if there's a reason the magic happens.
他说，如果魔术发生有一个原因，那么任何魔术都会更好。
So for instance--
比如说——
If you put, let's say, a coin into your hand, close your hand, snap your fingers, open it, and the coin is gone, there's not much of an impact to that.
比方说，如果你将一枚硬币放入手中，合上你的手，打响指，张开它，硬币就消失了，这不会产生太大的影响。
And the reason for that is that the action seems arbitrary.
其原因是该行动似乎是任意的。
That there doesn't seem to be a cause that makes that event happen.
似乎没有任何原因导致该事件发生。
Yes.
是的。
If you put the same coin in your hand, close your hand, and even do just this-- even just, say, take out a match.
如果你把同一枚硬币放在手里，闭上你的手，甚至这样做——甚至只是拿出一根火柴。
Light the match, pass it around your hand, and act with a sudden jolt as though something has happened inside your head where the coin melted away, and you've been burnt.
点燃火柴，将它绕过你的手，然后突然摇晃一下，就好像你的脑袋里发生了什么事，硬币融化了，你被烧伤了。
And you open your hand and there's no coin now.
然后你张开手，现在没有硬币了。
That level of acting, that level of causality that suggests that somehow the fire of a match could make a coin melt away, suddenly adds a dimension to it that I think is pretty crucial.
这种程度的表演，那种表明火柴之火可以使硬币融化的因果关系，突然增加了一个我认为非常重要的维度。
Also, it gives it a story.
此外，它还赋予了它一个故事。
Teller It gives it a little bit of a story.
Teller 它给了它一个小故事。
It gives it emotion.
它赋予它情感。
And I realized that I was doing all of this stuff with nothing causing it.
我意识到我所做的所有这些事情都是没有原因的。
There was no cause.
没有原因。
Why is the ball moving around?
为什么球会四处移动？
The ball is just moving around.
球只是在移动。
It was just arbitrary movement.
这只是随意的移动。
One of Teller's collaborators, a veteran magician named Johnny Thompson, gave him a suggestion that changed everything, though.
然而，泰勒的一位合作者、一位名叫约翰尼·汤普森的资深魔术师给了他一个改变一切的建议。
He said you've got to treat the book like a trained dog.
他说你必须像对待一只训练有素的狗一样对待这本书。
That would give a reason for its movement.
这将为它的移动提供一个理由。
A logic, a cause.
一个逻辑，一个原因。
So Teller tried it.
于是特勒就尝试了一下。
I thought, well, you know, what does typically a trained dog do?
我想，好吧，你知道，受过训练的狗通常会做什么？
It jumps through a hoop.
它跳过了一个圈。
So a trained dog is not always going to do what you want it to do.
因此，训练有素的狗并不总是会做你想让它做的事。
So I'd hold up the hoop, and the dog wouldn't respond.
所以我举起篮筐，但狗没有反应。
I'd call the dog, and instead of jumping through the hoop, it would come over and land on the rim of the hoop.
我会叫那只狗，它不会跳过篮筐，而是过来落在篮筐边缘。
I sit down and ignore it.
我坐下来忽略它。
What does a dog do when you ignore it?
当你忽视狗时，它会做什么？
Well, it very often comes to you.
嗯，它经常出现在你身上。
And here's what's happening.
这就是正在发生的事情。
What's happening is, I'm realizing that the plot of this is the dog trainer is getting the dog to jump through a hoop.
发生的事情是，我意识到这个情节是训狗师让狗跳过圈。
That becomes the plot.
这就是情节。
That becomes a little bit of a story.
这变成了一个小故事。
Now he had a plot and a story.
现在他有了一个情节和一个故事。
Teller did something else at this stage that's so essential and basic to the kind of drama that particularly happens in a magic show.
特勒在这个阶段做了其他一些事情，这对于魔术表演中特别发生的戏剧来说是非常重要和基本的。
One of the things that you do as a magician is you try to put yourself in the position of the audience at every moment.
作为魔术师，你要做的一件事就是每时每刻都尝试将自己置于观众的位置。
And you say, what would I be thinking at this moment?
你说，此时此刻我会想什么？
And you try to manipulate that.
你试图操纵它。
And one of the ways you do that is by giving the audience a little chance to figure something out, and then take it away from them.
做到这一点的方法之一就是给观众一点机会去弄清楚一些事情，然后把它从他们身边夺走。
And so he does that with this routine.
所以他通过这个例程做到了这一点。
Re-imagines it.
重新想象一下。
The ball starts on the bench, always in contact with the bench.
球从替补席开始，始终与替补席接触。
So the audience will think the ball is controlled by the bench.
所以观众会认为球是由替补席控制的。
And then he lifts the ball off the bench.
然后他把球从板凳上举起来。
It sticks to his finger and floats in the air.
它粘在他的手指上，漂浮在空中。
So they might conclude that it's his finger that controls the ball.
所以他们可能会得出结论，是他的手指控制了球。
And then it drops to the floor, away from his finger.
然后它掉到地板上，远离他的手指。
So each time you think of something, I give you the chance to think of that, and then I take it away from you, one thing after the other.
所以每次你想到一件事时，我都会给你机会去想它，然后我就把它从你身边夺走，一件接着一件。
It takes a lot of work.
这需要做很多工作。
He finishes the new routine, shows it to his partner Penn, who hates it.
他完成了新的例程，并将其展示给他的搭档佩恩，佩恩讨厌它。
Truly, truly hates it.
真的，真的很讨厌它。
Yes, he makes it further away from what my taste would be.
是的，他让它离我的口味越来越远。
[LAUGHS] At least when it was an abstract moving thing, it's closer to my taste.
[笑]至少当它是一个抽象的动人的东西时，它更接近我的口味。
Once it becomes something like a dog, it's moved very far out of my taste.
一旦它变得像狗一样，它就远离了我的口味。
I do!
我愿意！
I do!
我愿意！
I hate anthropomorphism.
我讨厌拟人化。
I don't like relationships with animals or inanimate objects at all.
我根本不喜欢与动物或无生命的物体建立关系。
Yeah.
是的。
But see, the thing is, where is my argument?
但你看，问题是，我的论点在哪里？
Where is his argument?
他的论点在哪里？
Like, what is he supposed to say?
比如，他应该说什么？
This is a delicate conversation, right?
这是一场微妙的谈话，对吧？
Here are these two men who respect each other, but don't socialize or hang out together.
这两个人互相尊重，但不交往或一起出去玩。
Who have been arguing, they say, constantly and fiercely, but productively for over 40 years.
他们说，40 多年来，他们一直在不断激烈地争论，但富有成效。
And Penn knows how much work Teller has put into this trick.
佩恩知道特勒在这个戏法上付出了多少努力。
And how much he would enjoy performing it every night.
他是多么喜欢每天晚上表演它。
He's not saying this outright, but it's implicit-- this is beautiful.
他没有直接说出来，但这是含蓄的——这很美。
This is mystifying.
这很神秘。
This is entertaining.
这很有趣。
People will love it.
人们会喜欢它。
It's really important to me.
这对我来说真的很重要。
All those five things are true.
这五件事都是真的。
So it's very, very uncomfortable.
所以这是非常非常不舒服的。
Uncomfortable because Penn agrees.
很不舒服，因为佩恩同意了。
It's a great trick.
这是一个很棒的技巧。
Totally works.
完全有效。
He just doesn't like it.
他只是不喜欢。
It doesn't feel like their show to him, this red ball that's also a disobedient puppy.
在他看来，这不像是他们的表演，这个红球也是一只不听话的小狗。
That's like the kind of idea you might see in a cartoon.
这就像你在动画片中看到的那种想法。
And they try to build the show around the principle that there should be nothing in the show that feels even vaguely familiar to the audience.
他们试图围绕这样的原则来制作这部剧：剧中不应该有任何让观众感到模糊熟悉的东西。
Nothing you can imagine seeing in anybody else's work.
你无法想象在其他人的作品中看到什么。
So Penn doesn't say yes.
所以佩恩没有答应。
But he doesn't say no either.
但他也没有说不。
He says to Teller, to be in the show, it still needs one more idea to really make it ours.
他对特勒说，要参加这个节目，还需要一个想法才能真正成为我们的。
And out of respect for each other, they try to come up with that idea.
出于对彼此的尊重，他们试图想出这个主意。
And I don't know which one of us brought it up.
我不知道我们中哪一个人提出了这个问题。
I think I'm the one who said, what if we actually said-- I said, you know, when Mike Close and Johnny Thompson came and watched me do this trick--
我想我就是那个说的人，如果我们真的说——我说，你知道，当迈克·克洛斯和约翰尼·汤普森来看我表演这个戏法时——
These are two other magicians they admire.
这是他们钦佩的另外两位魔术师。
--they knew there was a thread there.
——他们知道那里有一根线。
And because they knew there was a thread there, they were more baffled than an audience that could imagine that this was being done with a little gyroscope inside the ball.
因为他们知道那里有一根线，所以他们比观众更困惑，因为观众可以想象这是通过球内的一个小陀螺仪完成的。
So I said, what if we say right out at the top, here's a trick that's done with a piece of thread and a special backdrop.
所以我说，如果我们在顶部说，这是一个用一根线和一个特殊背景完成的技巧。
And Penn said, I think all you need is, now here's a trick that's done with a piece of thread.
佩恩说，我想你所需要的就是，现在这是一个用一根线完成的技巧。
That gives them so much.
这给了他们很多。
It brings them over onto our side.
它让他们站在我们这边。
And suddenly, this now had an idea.
突然间，这个人有了一个主意。
And the idea was bigger than the little plot with the little ball.
这个想法比小球的小情节更大。
It was bigger than all the little magic tricks.
它比所有的小魔术都大。
It was that you can state the actual method of a magic trick clearly at the beginning of it, and it can still fool the hell out of people.
就是你一开始就能把魔术的具体方法说清楚，还能把人骗得一塌糊涂。
That by knowing this extra piece of information, the trick becomes better.
通过了解这条额外的信息，技巧会变得更好。
In other words, give the audience in the theater the same feeling that David and I had standing on stage, seeing the thread, and still feeling amazed.
换句话说，让剧院里的观众有同样的感觉，就像我和大卫站在舞台上，看到那条线，仍然感到惊讶。
Not that the audience can see the thread, but they know it's there somewhere.
并不是说观众可以看到线索，但他们知道它就在那里。
Penn did lobby a little for sudden change in lighting that boom, would reveal the thread to the audience, fully visible.
佩恩确实游说了一下，要求突然改变灯光，让观众完全可见地看到线索。
But in the end, this solution, just telling them about the thread, was enough for him.
但最终，这个解决方案，只是告诉他们线程的情况，对他来说就足够了。
And 18 months after Teller picked up David P Abbott's book to practice for the first time, he and Penn added the ball to their show.
泰勒第一次拿起大卫·P·阿博特的书进行练习 18 个月后，他和佩恩将球添加到了他们的表演中。
It's not the longest they've ever worked on a trick.
这并不是他们表演花样时间最长的一次。
Not even close.
甚至还差得远。
They told me about one that took them six years.
他们告诉我一件事情花了他们六年的时间。
And making anything good takes time.
做好任何事情都需要时间。
There's a quote that your partner of 40 years, Penn Jillette, said about you.
你的 40 年伴侣 Penn Jillette 曾说过这样一句话来评价你。
It's kind of mean.
这有点意思。
There's no better partner than Teller.
没有比泰勒更好的合作伙伴了。
He's not the smartest or most creative person I've ever been around, but he's the hardest working.
他不是我见过的最聪明或最有创造力的人，但他是最努力的人。
He will not give up.
他不会放弃。
You can put him on a single task, and in the middle of it, hit him with a baseball bat square in the face, and he goes right back to the task.
你可以让他执行一项任务，在任务进行到一半时，用棒球棒打他的脸，他就会立即回到任务中。
[LAUGHS] Well, I'm sure he's talking directly about this bit.
[笑]嗯，我确信他正在直接谈论这一点。
[LAUGHS] And that is true.
[笑]那是真的。
It is true.
是真的。
I have a certain dog with a slipper quality about me.
我有一只具有拖鞋品质的狗。
[LAUGHS] Especially-- I do trust my gut.
[笑]特别是——我确实相信我的直觉。
This trick that we do in the show is not the trick that I thought we were going to do.
我们在节目中表演的这个戏法并不是我认为我们要做的戏法。
But it is the trick that was calling out to me.
但这正是召唤我的伎俩。
You know?
你知道？
Teller teared up as he said this.
特勒说这话时泪流满面。
I told his partner, Penn.
我告诉他的搭档佩恩。
Yeah.
是的。
He does.
他做到了。
He does get choked up about it.
他确实对此感到哽咽。
There's stuff I get choked up about, too.
我也有一些让我哽咽的事情。
That's not it.
不是这个。
They are very different people, Penn and Teller.
佩恩和泰勒是非常不同的人。
Even the way they tell this story, in Teller's telling, the story has a happy ending.
即使他们讲述这个故事的方式，在特勒的讲述中，这个故事也有一个幸福的结局。
They added the extra idea, compromise was reached.
他们添加了额外的想法，达成了妥协。
The partnership worked.
这种伙伴关系奏效了。
When Penn tells the story, the compromise is a little deeper.
当佩恩讲述这个故事时，妥协更深了一些。
I think that Teller does a beautiful job and the audience loves it.
我认为特勒做得很出色，观众也很喜欢。
And I kind of zone out.
我有点走神了。
It doesn't feel like the whole bit just snaps into what it should be.
感觉整个部分并没有完全融入到应有的样子。
You know it doesn't feel like--
你知道这感觉不像——
You mean now?
你是说现在？
Even now?
即使是现在？
Penn Jillette Oh yeah, now.
佩恩·吉莱特 哦，是的，现在。
Yeah.
是的。
No. Maybe Teller may not know that.
不，也许泰勒可能不知道这一点。
But, I mean, Teller may have noticed that every show order we come up with, at some point, I suggest we have a show without the red ball.
但是，我的意思是，泰勒可能已经注意到，我们提出的每一个表演顺序，在某些时候，我都建议我们进行一场没有红球的表演。
He might notice that.
他可能会注意到这一点。
I don't often note it.
我不经常注意到它。
It is a pattern that shows up.
这是一种显现出来的模式。
But, can I say again, really good trick.
但是，我可以再说一遍，真是好技巧。
He does a beautiful job.
他做得很好。
He worked really hard.
他工作非常努力。
And the audience loves it.
观众喜欢它。
Teller told me, of course he knew that Penn still had his doubts.
特勒告诉我，他当然知道佩恩仍然心存疑虑。
You don't work together so long, he said, without knowing something like that.
“你们在一起工作的时间不长，”他说，但并不知道这样的事情。
Interestingly, after five years of performing this trick, they changed the ending to add more of what Penn wanted, which is to underline the fact that it's done with the thread a little more.
有趣的是，在表演这个技巧五年后，他们改变了结局，添加了更多佩恩想要的东西，这是为了强调一个事实，即它是用线程完成的。
You can see this version of the trick online.
你可以在网上看到这个版本的技巧。
There's a video from Penn & Teller's TV show, Fool Us.
有一段来自 Penn & Teller 的电视节目《愚弄我们》的视频。
We have a link at our website.
我们的网站上有一个链接。
Here's what they added to finally finish the trick for good, over six years after Teller first started practicing with Abbott's book.
在泰勒第一次开始练习阿博特的书六年多后，他们添加了以下内容，最终永久地完成了这个技巧。
At the end of the routine, Penn walks out onstage, grabs the thread from Teller, and then dangles the ball from the thread.
在例程结束时，佩恩走上舞台，从泰勒手中夺过线，然后将球从线上悬挂起来。
Penn takes an oversized scissors, cuts the thread.
佩恩拿起一把超大剪刀，剪断了线。
The ball drops to the ground, and Penn kicks the ball across the stage.
球掉到地上，佩恩将球踢过舞台。
He looks mad.
他看起来很生气。
He's just acting, of course.
当然，他只是在演戏。
But he lays into that ball with gusto.
但他满怀热情地投进了那个球。
Coming up, making a very, very big object-- an object too big to fit in a building-- making it disappear.
即将到来，制作一个非常非常大的物体——一个太大而无法容纳在建筑物中的物体——让它消失。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "The Magic Show." My coworker David Kestenbaum and I, both of us former kid magicians, return to magic as adults, and it all looks very different.
今天的节目是《魔术表演》。我和我的同事大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）都是曾经的儿童魔术师，成年后重返魔术界，一切看起来都非常不同。
Today's show was first broadcast a year ago.
今天的节目是一年前首次播出的。
We have arrived at act two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act two, The Lady Vanishes.
第二幕，《女士消失》。
So in putting together this show, David became obsessed with this one trick that he had seen back when he was a teenager.
因此，在制作这个节目的过程中，大卫开始沉迷于他在青少年时期见过的这个技巧。
The Guinness Book of World Records lists it as the largest illusion ever staged.
吉尼斯世界纪录将其列为有史以来最大的魔术表演。
David wanted to know what it was like to be on the other side of that one.
大卫想知道站在那个人的另一边是什么感觉。
Like, what it was like to be the magician.
就像，成为魔术师是什么感觉。
Here he is.
他在这里。
This is a trick I loved when I was a kid.
这是我小时候很喜欢的一个技巧。
I'd kind of forgotten about it.
我有点忘记了。
And then one night, I was home recently watching the TV show, The Americans.
然后有一天晚上，我最近在家看电视节目《美国人》。
The show is about this family living in the US in the 1980s.
该剧讲述了 20 世纪 80 年代生活在美国的一个家庭的故事。
The parents are undercover Russian spies.
父母是俄罗斯卧底间谍。
Because it's set in the 1980s, these big historic moments pop up.
因为故事背景设定在 20 世纪 80 年代，所以这些重大的历史时刻都会突然出现。
President Reagan getting shot, Iran-Contra.
里根总统被枪杀，伊朗门。
But then this one episode, it opens with this--
但这一集的开头是——
I remember this exact moment happening in my house.
我记得这一刻发生在我家里。
I was 13 years old, about the same age as those kids.
那年我13岁，和那些孩子差不多大。
And as a kid magician, I think I'd circled the time and channel in the TV Guide.
作为一名儿童魔术师，我想我会在电视指南中圈出时间和频道。
That was our family system for reserving the television.
那是我们预订电视的家庭系统。
When I've tried to relive this amazing moment in American history with other people, though, I get mostly blank stares.
然而，当我试图与其他人一起重温美国历史上这一令人惊叹的时刻时，我得到的大多是茫然的目光。
But I figured someone involved with The Americans must have been a nerd like me.
但我想参与《美国人》的人一定是像我一样的书呆子。
Because there's like two minutes of the show where the family is just watching the trick on television.
因为节目中有大约两分钟的时间，家人只是在电视上观看魔术表演。
So I reached out.
于是我伸出手。
And yeah, one of the producers of The Americans, Joel Fields, was just like me.
是的，《美国谍梦》的制片人之一乔尔·菲尔兹（Joel Fields）和我一样。
I was in my parent's wood-paneled den in Toronto, Canada, on their brown corduroy couch.
我在加拿大多伦多父母的木板书房里，坐在他们的棕色灯芯绒沙发上。
It's extremely possible I brought some friends.
我极有可能带了一些朋友来。
I was a magician.
我是一名魔术师。
David Kestenbaum As a kid, the whole thing, hanging out at the local magic shop.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum）小时候，整个事情都是在当地的魔术店闲逛。
His colleague Joe Weisberg was there, also-- the creator of The Americans.
他的同事乔·韦斯伯格也在场，他是《美国谍梦》的创始人。
Joe kept ribbing us through the interview.
乔在采访中不断地取笑我们。
Where were you when you watched the David Copperfield special?
当您观看大卫·科波菲尔特别节目时您在哪里？
Not watching the David Copperfield special.
没有看大卫·科波菲尔特别节目。
I would have to say no. David Kestenbaum For those of you who were not following the national magic scene in the 1980s-- and I realize now there are many of you-- David Copperfield was one of two truly big name illusionists at the time.
我不得不说不。 David Kestenbaum 对于那些没有关注 20 世纪 80 年代全国魔术界的人——我意识到现在有很多人——大卫·科波菲尔是当时两位真正大牌的魔术师之一。
It felt like he was in a kind of battle with the other one, Doug Henning.
感觉就像他正在与另一个人道格·亨宁进行一场战斗。
Both had TV specials on separate networks.
两者在不同的网络上都有电视特别节目。
Copperfield was handsome, clean cut.
科波菲尔很英俊，轮廓分明。
Henning was the hippie, wearing tie dye with long hair and teeth that hadn't seen braces.
亨宁是个嬉皮士，扎着染发，长发，牙齿没有牙套。
I was squarely team Copperfield.
我是科波菲尔团队的一员。
My boss, Ira Glass, I learned while we were editing this story, 1,000% team Henning.
我的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 在编辑这个故事时了解到，1000% 的团队是亨宁 (Henning)。
Loved Henning's goofy sense of wonder.
喜欢亨宁愚蠢的好奇心。
Which I hated.
我讨厌这一点。
Copperfield, my man, seemed driven, intent on proving that he was the best in the world.
我的伙计科波菲尔似乎充满动力，一心想证明他是世界上最好的。
Going bigger every time.
每次都变得更大。
In his previous TV special, he'd made an airplane disappear.
在他之前的电视特别节目中，他让一架飞机消失了。
Joe was somehow unaware of this too.
不知何故，乔也没有意识到这一点。
Was the airplane on the ground or in the sky?
飞机是在地面上还是在天上？
No, it was on the ground.
不，它在地上。
Joe Weisberg Well, that's not-- you know.
乔·韦斯伯格：嗯，那不是——你知道的。
It was, actually.
事实上，确实如此。
People stood around this airplane in a ring, holding hands.
人们手拉手围成一圈，围绕着这架飞机。
And it just vanished.
它就这样消失了。
The Statue of Liberty?
自由女神像？
Even more amazing.
更令人惊奇的是。
I watched it again with Joe and Joel.
我和乔、乔尔又看了一遍。
And here I'll just narrate for you.
这里我就简单的给大家讲述一下。
Imagine it's 1983.
想象一下这是 1983 年。
You're in the family living room on some couch.
你在家庭客厅的沙发上。
The TV special opens with helicopter footage of the statue.
电视特别节目以直升机拍摄雕像的镜头开始。
The illusion happens at night, so it's all lit up.
幻觉发生在晚上，所以一切都被照亮了。
We fly up by the crown, the torch.
我们乘着王冠、火炬飞翔。
And then cut to the man himself, David Copperfield, looking like a teen heartthrob-- big, dark eyes, some sort of silvery Rockstar jacket.
然后镜头切到这个人本人，大卫·科波菲尔，看起来就像一个青少年万人迷——一双又大又黑的眼睛，穿着某种银色的摇滚明星夹克。
And this, of course, didn't register with me as a middle school kid, but he's young to be taking on something so ambitious-- 26 years old.
当然，作为一个中学生，我并没有意识到这一点，但他还很年轻，能够承担如此雄心勃勃的事情——26岁。
He gives this little speech.
他发表了这个简短的演讲。
I somehow doubt it happened exactly like that.
我有点怀疑事情确实是这样发生的。
But whatever.
但无论如何。
Finally, it's time.
终于，是时候了。
Copperfield has an audience sitting right there on Liberty Island at the foot of the statue.
科波菲尔的观众就坐在自由岛上的雕像脚下。
Everyone is sitting on this stage-- it's outdoors-- looking up at the huge Statue of Liberty, which is about 200 feet away.
每个人都坐在这个户外舞台上，抬头看着约 200 英尺外的巨大自由女神像。
There are spotlights on it and a helicopter circling overhead.
上面有聚光灯，一架直升机在头顶盘旋。
Our view is the same as the audience.
我们的看法和观众是一样的。
We're just behind them, looking up at the statue too.
我们就在他们身后，也抬头看着雕像。
On either side of the stage or two big scaffolding towers, kind of framing the shot.
在舞台的两侧或两个大脚手架塔上，形成了镜头的框架。
You have a view of the statue between them.
您可以看到他们之间的雕像。
What happens next is one continuous camera shot-- no visible edits.
接下来发生的是连续的相机拍摄——没有可见的编辑。
A giant curtain is hoisted up, suspended between those two scaffolding towers.
巨大的幕布被升起，悬挂在两座脚手架塔之间。
You can't see the statue now, but it has to be there, right behind the curtain.
你现在看不到雕像，但它一定就在那儿，就在窗帘后面。
Then Copperfield puts his left hand to his temple, closes his eyes.
然后科波菲尔将左手放在太阳穴上，闭上眼睛。
This is a signature Copperfield move, familiar to me even now.
这是科波菲尔的标志性动作，即使现在我也很熟悉。
It's as if he's doing it with his mind.
就好像他是用意念去做的一样。
A few seconds pass, the curtain drops.
几秒钟过去了，幕布落下。
And it's freakin' gone.
它已经消失了。
The statue's gone.
雕像不见了。
The spotlights are there.
聚光灯在那里。
The helicopters is still circling.
直升机仍在盘旋。
But now, circling nothing.
但现在，什么也没有转。
Just empty space.
只是空旷的空间。
The camera cuts to reactions from the audience.
镜头切入观众的反应。
Everyone seems astonished.
每个人都显得很惊讶。
There's one guy wearing a priest collar.
有一个戴着牧师项圈的家伙。
And then an older woman.
然后是一位年长的妇女。
Copperfield, I think in an attempt to land some larger meaning, makes a speech about immigrants and how we shouldn't take our liberty for granted.
我认为，科波菲尔试图表达一些更大的意义，他发表了一场关于移民以及我们不应将自由视为理所当然的演讲。
Then he makes the statue reappear.
然后他让雕像重新出现。
Even Joe Weisberg-- the non-magic fan-- when he finally watched it as an adult, he was moved.
就连乔·韦斯伯格（Joe Weisberg）——一个非魔法迷——当他成年后终于看到这部电影时，也被感动了。
For Joel and me as kid magicians, we tried to figure out how he did it.
对于乔尔和我来说，作为儿童魔术师，我们试图弄清楚他是如何做到的。
Did you have any theories?
你有什么理论吗？
Joel Fields I did not have a good theory.
乔尔·菲尔兹（Joel Fields） 我没有一个好的理论。
And as somebody who knew a lot of magic gimmicks, I was pretty dumbfounded.
作为一个懂得很多魔术伎俩的人，我简直傻眼了。
Did your friends say, tell me how he did it?
你的朋友有没有说，告诉我他是怎么做到的？
I'm sure they did.
我确信他们做到了。
And I think I would have-- I would like to believe that I told them I didn't know.
我想我会——我愿意相信我告诉他们我不知道。
I'm not proud of this, but when kids asked me how Copperfield did it, I have a pretty clear memory of saying something like, sorry, I can't tell you.
我并不为此感到自豪，但当孩子们问我科波菲尔是如何做到这一点时，我清楚地记得我说过这样的话，对不起，我不能告诉你。
Which was true-- I couldn't.
这是真的——我不能。
Sometimes, it is not so fun to learn how a trick is done.
有时，学习一个技巧是如何完成的并不是那么有趣。
It's all double lifts and hidden compartments.
都是双电梯和隐藏隔间。
And when you learn the secret, it can be kind of a letdown.
当你得知这个秘密时，可能会有点失望。
But there are those times when the secret to the trick is cooler than the trick itself-- the sheer ingenuity and genius of it.
但有时候，这个技巧的秘密比这个技巧本身更酷——它纯粹的独创性和天才。
And so, I'm going to talk now about how this trick might have been done.
所以，我现在要谈谈这个技巧是如何完成的。
We thought a lot about whether to put this on the radio.
我们考虑了很多关于是否将其放在广播中的问题。
But the truth is you are all a simple Google search away from what I'm about to tell you.
但事实是，只需简单的谷歌搜索，你就可以获得我将要告诉你的内容。
That is one of the weird things about magic today over 30 years later-- the internet exists.
这就是 30 多年后的今天，魔法的怪异之处之一——互联网的存在。
There's a whole world of explanations and pretty good instructional videos for aspiring magicians.
对于有抱负的魔术师来说，这里有大量的解释和非常好的教学视频。
But if you'd rather not go down this road with me, you can skip ahead or stop listening for about 10 minutes.
但如果您不想和我一起走这条路，您可以跳过或停止听大约 10 分钟。
I totally respect that.
我完全尊重这一点。
I should also say we did reach out to David Copperfield.
我还应该说我们确实联系了大卫·科波菲尔。
And we made a pitch which was basically this may be your greatest hit.
我们做了一个宣传，基本上这可能是你最热门的作品。
It's been 34 years now.
到现在已经34年了。
Everyone who was going to be fooled by this trick has already been fooled.
本来要被这把戏愚弄的人都已经被愚弄了。
You'll never perform it again.
你将永远不会再执行它。
Nobody's going to perform it again.
没有人会再表演一次。
We're not hurting the livelihood of any magician by revealing the secret.
我们不会因为揭露这个秘密而损害任何魔术师的生计。
Why not come on the show and talk about what it was like to be on the other side?
为什么不上节目来谈谈站在另一边的感受呢？
Copperfield was completely gracious.
科波菲尔非常和蔼可亲。
But he said, it wasn't his job to talk about how the tricks are done.
但他说，谈论这些技巧是如何完成的不是他的工作。
And he said something else.
他还说了一些别的话。
He said, to protect the secrets of his tricks, he's hired people to put fake explanations online, to throw the curious off the track.
他说，为了保护他的伎俩的秘密，他雇人在网上发布虚假的解释，让好奇的人偏离轨道。
Which of course, makes the whole thing even more interesting.
当然，这让整个事情变得更加有趣。
So here is the explanation that is on the internet, and also in one book written by a non-magician-- instead of moving the statue, Copperfield moved the audience.
这是互联网上的解释，也是在一本非魔术师写的书中的解释 - 科波菲尔没有移动雕像，而是移动了观众。
The entire audience.
全场观众。
Rotated them, actually.
实际上，旋转了它们。
They were sitting unknowingly on a giant rotating platform.
他们不知不觉地坐在一个巨大的旋转平台上。
Think a huge lazy Susan.
想想一个大懒惰的苏珊。
So here's how it would have worked-- the curtain gets hoisted up between the two towers, blocking the statue from view.
所以它的运作方式是这样的——在两座塔之间拉起窗帘，挡住雕像。
And while it's up, the platform, with the entire audience on it and the giant scaffolding towers and the curtain, the whole thing rotates until it's facing away from the statue.
当它升起时，平台、所有观众都在上面、巨大的脚手架塔和幕布，整个东西都会旋转，直到它背对着雕像。
So that when the curtain falls, the audience is looking out at nothing.
因此，当幕布落下时，观众什么也看不见。
Or, I think, to be precise, they're looking out at part of the New Jersey coastline.
或者，我认为，准确地说，他们正在眺望新泽西州海岸线的一部分。
It's such a beautiful secret-- smart and simple and big.
这是一个如此美丽的秘密——聪明、简单、伟大。
There is another part of the secret, which is even cooler.
这个秘密还有另一部分，更酷。
When I first heard there might have been a rotating platform, I wondered, what was to stop the audience members from just turning their heads and seeing the statue?
当我第一次听说可能有一个旋转平台时，我想知道，什么才能阻止观众转头看到雕像呢？
After all, it should have been just off to one side.
毕竟，它应该就在一侧。
The answer?
答案是什么呢？
It's hidden, in what, in retrospect, is the only possible place-- behind one of the scaffolding towers used to hold the curtain up.
现在回想起来，它隐藏在唯一可能的地方——一个用来拉起幕布的脚手架塔后面。
The scaffolding tower is tiny compared to the statue.
与雕像相比，脚手架塔很小。
But it's close enough to the audience that with the platform rotated to just the right position, the tower blocks the statue from view.
但它离观众足够近，当平台旋转到正确的位置时，塔楼挡住了雕像的视线。
Watching the TV special again knowing this made it even more impressive.
知道这一点后再次观看电视特别节目更加令人印象深刻。
I kept thinking, how exciting and nerve-wracking it must have been to be Copperfield in that moment.
我一直在想，那一刻，成为科波菲尔一定是多么令人兴奋和伤脑筋。
To pull this off, the rotation would have been fast enough that it didn't seem to take too long, but not so fast that someone would notice.
为了实现这一目标，旋转速度必须足够快，看起来不会花太长时间，但又不能快到让人注意到。
And super smooth.
而且超级光滑。
Here's Joel Fields, former kid magician.
这是乔尔·菲尔兹，前儿童魔术师。
First of all, how could the people there not have noticed?
首先，那里的人怎么会没有注意到呢？
It's like high stakes, right?
这就像高风险，对吧？
It's ballsy.
真是有胆量。
To put these people on a thing, and like, hope that really no one's going to notice.
把这些人放在一个东西上，希望真的没有人会注意到。
It's a wildly gutsy trick.
这是一个非常大胆的伎俩。
Well, why?
嗯，为什么？
Could it have not worked?
难道是没起作用吗？
What could have gone wrong?
可能出了什么问题？
One or more people could have said, hey, this platform's rotating.
一个或多个人可能会说，嘿，这个平台正在旋转。
Someone could have had a compass.
有人可能有一个指南针。
The more I thought about this, the more questions I had.
我越想这个问题，就越有疑问。
Was this really how it was done?
事情真的是这样的吗？
Could you get away with something like that?
你能摆脱这样的事情吗？
Maybe this was a fake explanation, planted by David Copperfield.
也许这是大卫·科波菲尔捏造的虚假解释。
A scaffolding tower to hide some deeper secret.
一座脚手架塔隐藏着一些更深层次的秘密。
I figured the best thing would be to track down some of the audience members who were there at the foot of the Statue of Liberty.
我认为最好的办法是找到自由女神像脚下的一些观众。
But remember, this happened in 1983.
但请记住，这发生在 1983 年。
And in any case, none of the audience members are named.
无论如何，没有一个观众被点名。
I didn't see any easy way to track them down.
我没有找到任何简单的方法来追踪他们。
But as I was watching and re-watching the video of the trick, I found one shot where someone's name was revealed, someone I could try to contact.
但当我一遍又一遍地观看这个魔术的视频时，我发现一个镜头显示了某人的名字，我可以尝试联系他。
It comes in the lead up, where Copperfield is in the office of the Park Service official for the Statue of Liberty.
它出现在前面，科波菲尔在自由女神像公园管理局官员的办公室里。
It's just a quick cutaway where he's explaining that he had to get permission to make the statue disappear.
这只是一个快速的切角，他解释说他必须获得许可才能让雕像消失。
But if you freeze frame on that part, you can just make out, on the man's desk, a name plate-- David L Moffitt.
但如果你定格那个部分，你就可以在那个人的桌子上辨认出一个铭牌——大卫·L·莫菲特(David L Moffitt)。
I had no idea if this guy was still alive.
我不知道这家伙是否还活着。
This was, after all, 34 years ago.
毕竟，这已经是 34 年前的事了。
But I started searching for a David L Moffitt.
但我开始寻找大卫·L·莫菲特。
And I found one-- in Virginia, but with a previous residence of Liberty Island.
我在弗吉尼亚州找到了一个，但以前的住所是自由岛。
Hi!
你好！
David Kestenbaum I got on a plane to fly down there.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum） 我登上了飞往那里的飞机。
--recognized automatically, my driveway's a killer.
——自动识别出，我的车道是个杀手。
Sit down and relax.
坐下来放松一下。
For 10 years, if you wanted to do anything with the Statue of Liberty, you had to go through David L Moffittt.
十年来，如果你想对自由女神像做任何事情，你必须通过大卫·L·莫菲特。
He lived on the little island with his family.
他和家人住在这个小岛上。
The Park Service has a house there.
公园管理局在那里有一所房子。
The statue was right outside his window.
雕像就在他的窗外。
He felt like it was his job to protect her.
他觉得保护她是他的职责。
When a deodorant maker tried to use her in an ad, maybe because she has her arm up, David Moffittt fought back.
当除臭剂制造商试图在广告中使用她时，也许是因为她举起了手臂，大卫·莫菲特进行了反击。
When a furniture company wanted to hang a couch from her and have someone sit in the couch, he vetoed it.
当一家家具公司想给她挂一张沙发并让某人坐在沙发上时，他否决了。
And when David Copperfield requested permission to make her disappear, he said no.
当大卫·科波菲尔请求让她消失时，他拒绝了。
I personally felt that was inappropriate use of such a sacred icon.
我个人认为这样一个神圣的图标的使用是不恰当的。
And I wrote back a rejection to the request.
我回信拒绝了该请求。
And I thought that probably was the end of it.
我想这可能就结束了。
But a couple of weeks later, Moffitt gets a letter in the mail from the director of the National Park Service, giving Copperfield permission.
但几周后，莫菲特收到了国家公园管理局局长的一封信，给予科波菲尔许可。
Copperfield had gone over his head.
科波菲尔已经超出了他的理解范围。
He had connections in the White House.
他在白宫有关系。
Copperfield's team did confirm this.
科波菲尔的团队确实证实了这一点。
They said he got permission directly from Ronald Reagan.
他们说他直接得到了罗纳德·里根的许可。
To put it mildly, I was a little bit taken back.
温和地说，我有点退缩了。
A few days later, I walked in my office, and there's David Copperfield.
几天后，我走进办公室，看到大卫·科波菲尔。
He's standing up there.
他站在那里。
Very handsome, nice looking guy, well-dressed.
非常帅气，长相帅气，穿着也很考究。
Copperfield apologized for getting him overruled.
科波菲尔为自己的否决而道歉。
Moffitt says Copperfield seemed sincere, like a nice guy.
莫菲特说科波菲尔看起来很真诚，就像一个好人。
I signed a permit.
我签署了许可证。
And then he says that I would like for you to sign a waiver that you will not disclose how I'll make the statue disappear.
然后他说我希望你签署一份弃权书，保证你不会透露我将如何让雕像消失。
I said no, I won't do that.
我说不，我不会那样做。
I said I would never do anything that would limit my freedom of speech.
我说过我绝不会做任何限制我言论自由的事情。
Hard to argue with that while you're at the foot of the Statue of Liberty.
当你站在自由女神像脚下时，很难否认这一点。
Moffitt was there during the filming, and he saw how the trick was done.
拍摄期间莫菲特就在场，他亲眼目睹了这个戏法是如何完成的。
He says he kept his mouth shut for the last three decades.
他说，过去三十年他一直守口如瓶。
Only told family and a few friends.
只告诉了家人和几个朋友。
But he confirmed for me, the explanation on the internet, that is the real explanation.
但他给我证实了，网上的解释，才是真正的解释。
He even demonstrated for me.
他甚至还给我演示过。
We got the lazy Susan that I use for pottery.
我们得到了我用来做陶器的懒惰苏珊。
That thing.
那件事。
Could you get that?
你能明白吗？
Or I'll get it.
或者我会得到它。
He had a miniature Statue of Liberty, of course.
当然，他有一尊微型自由女神像。
Its stage starts turning.
它的舞台开始转动。
And it goes maybe 25 or 30 degrees to the right.
它可能向右倾斜 25 或 30 度。
During the filming, Moffitt was standing just off to the side of the platform.
拍摄期间，莫菲特就站在站台一侧。
I found another guy who was there, and who confirmed the basic mechanics of how the trick was done.
我找到了另一个在那里的人，他证实了这个技巧的基本原理。
But talking to him made me wonder if there might be a whole other level of deception to the trick.
但与他交谈让我想知道这个伎俩是否可能还有其他层次的欺骗。
His name is Al Cerullo.
他的名字叫阿尔·赛鲁洛。
His name was in the credits for the show.
他的名字出现在该剧的片尾字幕中。
He flew a helicopter in the Vietnam War.
他在越南战争中驾驶直升机。
And now, for TV and movies.
现在，对于电视和电影。
So many.
这么多。
The Avengers, Spiderman, Muppets Take Manhattan.
复仇者联盟、蜘蛛侠、布偶占领了曼哈顿。
The one I want to ask you about was in the 1980s.
我想问你的是 20 世纪 80 年代的事。
That would be probably Turk 182 or one of those movies?
那可能是《Turk 182》或其中一部电影？
It was in 1983.
那是1983年。
Al Cerullo Not Nighthawks?
Al Cerullo 不是夜鹰？
[LAUGHS] No, when David Copperfield made the Statue of--
[笑]不，当大卫·科波菲尔制作雕像时——
Oh, David Copperfield!
哦，大卫·科波菲尔！
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, that was a pretty big deal, actually.
是的，实际上这是一件大事。
He told me the helicopter's job was to fly from position A to position B while the curtain was blocking the view.
他告诉我直升机的任务是在窗帘挡住视线的情况下从A位置飞到B位置。
Basically from above the statue to above a designated empty spot, which was rigged with duplicate spotlights.
基本上从雕像上方到指定的空位上方，该空位上装有重复的聚光灯。
If you think about it, the helicopter and the lights are the fixed points in the trick-- the things that make the audience think they're looking at the same spot.
如果你仔细想想，直升机和灯光就是戏法中的固定点——让观众认为他们正在看同一个地点。
I didn't think he was going to be able to pull it off.
我不认为他能够成功。
How come?
怎么会？
Like, what were you worried about happening?
比如，你担心发生什么？
You know, the stage-- you'd feel the stage moving or whatever.
你知道，舞台——你会感觉到舞台在移动或者其他什么。
They spent a lot of money, evidently, on some kind of bearings in the stage.
显然，他们在舞台上的某种轴承上花了很多钱。
You know?
你知道？
On the bottom, so that you wouldn't feel it.
放在底部，这样你就感觉不到了。
It got delayed a couple of times because it wasn't working right.
由于工作不正常，它被推迟了几次。
Couldn't get it to work the way you wanted.
无法让它按照您想要的方式工作。
Which put this unpleasant thought in my head-- was the audience really fooled by this?
这让我的脑海里浮现出一个不愉快的想法——观众真的被这个愚弄了吗？
Or were they maybe in on it the whole time?
或者他们可能一直参与其中？
Yeah.
是的。
That's-- yes.
那是——是的。
Some of the people in the audience were staged.
台下的一些人都上演了。
They knew what was going to happen.
他们知道会发生什么。
Oh.
哦。
Al Cerullo Not everybody.
阿尔·塞鲁洛 不是每个人。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Do you know?
你知道吗？
Al Cerullo No, I don't know about that part of it.
Al Cerullo 不，我不知道那部分内容。
We never got into that.
我们从来没有涉及到这一点。
I never asked him, he never mentioned it.
我从来没有问过他，他也从来没有提过。
You know?
你知道？
I asked David L Moffitt, the Park Service guy.
我问了公园管理局的大卫·L·莫菲特（David L Moffitt）。
Was the audience in on it?
观众参与其中了吗？
He answered with a story.
他用一个故事来回答。
This happened just after they finished shooting.
这件事发生在他们刚刚完成拍摄之后。
Everybody was slapping everybody on the back.
每个人都在拍着每个人的背。
And everybody a hap, you know.
大家都很开心，你知道。
And I said something to one of the so-called audience-- how did you end up here?
我对其中一位所谓的观众说了一些话——你怎么会来到这里？
And she said, oh, I was paid for this.
她说，哦，我为此得到了报酬。
I was paid to come here?
我是被付钱才来这里的？
David L Moffitt Yeah.
大卫·L·莫菲特 是的。
And that was kind of the end of the conversation.
谈话就这样结束了。
I was-- I didn't-- that's not what-- I wasn't investigating.
我是——我没有——那不是——我没有调查。
I was just curious where these people came from.
我只是好奇这些人是从哪里来的。
Especially when they acted so amazed that it had disappeared.
尤其是当他们表现得如此惊讶以至于它消失了的时候。
Because they felt the stage moving.
因为他们感觉到舞台在动。
They couldn't help but feel the stage moving.
他们不禁感觉到舞台在动。
I don't know if they were actors or wannabe ac-- I don't know.
我不知道他们是演员还是想成为演员——我不知道。
I know that one of them was paid to be there.
我知道他们中的一个人是被付钱去那里的。
Moffitt went back over this in his memory, because he wanted to be accurate.
莫菲特在记忆中回顾了这件事，因为他想要准确。
He later told us he thinks it was one of his employees who talked to the woman.
他后来告诉我们，他认为是他的一名员工与这名女子交谈。
To be fair, it's been over 30 years.
公平地说，已经过去30多年了。
But this thought, that the audience might have been in on it, it made me incredibly sad.
但一想到观众可能也参与其中，我就感到非常悲伤。
It felt like cheating.
感觉像是作弊。
If all those people going wow, they were paid to go wow, they weren't fooled?
如果所有那些去哇的人都是花钱去哇的，他们没有被愚弄吗？
That's not magic.
那不是魔法。
That's like we're watching a play about magic.
这就像我们在看一部关于魔术的戏剧。
I told the Americans producers Joe and Joel about this.
我把这件事告诉了美国制片人乔和乔尔。
Joel, the former kid magician, didn't see it the way I did.
乔尔，前儿童魔术师，不同意我的看法。
At all.
完全没有。
It means he bought off the whole audience.
这意味着他收买了所有观众。
No. No!
不，不！
No, it doesn't.
不，事实并非如此。
David Kestenbaum It might mean that.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 可能就是这个意思。
It doesn't.
事实并非如此。
Let's say he-- no. The audience was us.
假设他——不。观众就是我们。
The television audience is the audience.
电视观众就是观众。
He promised to make the Statue of Liberty disappear with no camera tricks.
他承诺不用相机技巧就能让自由女神像消失。
He made the Statue of Liberty disappear with no camera tricks.
他没有使用任何摄影技巧，就让自由女神像消失了。
It's pretty dramatic.
这非常具有戏剧性。
And it was moving.
它正在移动。
I think it's a little troubling.
我觉得有点麻烦。
If true.
如果属实的话。
If true.
如果属实的话。
David Kestenbaum I honestly didn't know what to believe.
David Kestenbaum 老实说，我不知道该相信什么。
I watched the TV special again and again.
我一遍又一遍地观看电视特别节目。
And some of the audience members started to look like actors.
一些观众开始看起来像演员了。
At least in moments.
至少在某些时刻。
Like just after the curtain drops and the statue is gone, this one guy leans over to the woman next to him and points in this kind of hokey way.
就在幕布落下、雕像消失之后，这个男人向他旁边的女人倾身，以这种做作的方式指着她。
Then there's the fact that one of the audience members is in a priest collar.
还有一个事实是，其中一名观众戴着牧师领带。
Really?
真的吗？
You happened to get a priest in the audience?
观众席上碰巧有一位牧师？
And do priests dress that way when they go out at night?
牧师晚上出去的时候也会这样穿吗？
Finally, I got a tip.
最后，我得到了一个提示。
I was at this magic show talking to these two people.
我在这个魔术表演中与这两个人交谈。
One of them I'll call a former high ranking official in the magic establishment.
其中一位我会打电话给魔法机构的一位前高级官员。
They knew someone who had been there on Liberty Island during the filming of the show and would know the truth.
他们认识一个在节目拍摄期间去过自由岛的人，并且知道真相。
I called the person up, and he agreed to talk.
我给那个人打电话，他同意谈话。
My name is Ed Alonzo.
我的名字是艾德·阿朗佐。
I'm known as the misfit of magic.
我被称为与魔法格格不入的人。
And maybe you remember me as Max, the owner of the diner on Saved By The Bell.
也许你还记得我是麦克斯，《Saved By The Bell》中餐厅的老板。
Ed was also the guy who made that curtain go up and down in front of the Statue of Liberty.
埃德也是让自由女神像前的帷幕升降的人。
Actually, there were two guys.
事实上，有两个人。
It was a big curtain.
那是一个大窗帘。
Ed was 18 years old at the time, a young magician.
艾德当时18岁，是一名年轻的魔术师。
Says he stayed overnight at David Copperfield's parents' house in New Jersey before the shoot.
说拍摄前他在大卫·科波菲尔父母位于新泽西州的家里过夜。
I told him I'd heard the audience might have been in on it.
我告诉他我听说观众可能也参与其中。
I told him what the Park Service guy had told me.
我告诉了他公园管理局人员告诉我的话。
That an audience member had said she had been paid to be there.
一位观众说她是被付钱去那里的。
Really?
真的吗？
See, I'm totally surprised.
看吧，我完全惊讶了。
It is possible that maybe some of the people were paid to be there only because they couldn't get enough regular people with the amount of tickets that they gave out.
有可能有些人之所以获得报酬只是因为他们发放的门票数量不足以吸引到足够的普通人。
Sometimes you do use paid extras in an audience, he says.
他说，有时你确实会在观众中使用付费的临时演员。
They show up on time.
他们准时出现。
And you can tell them to dress nicely.
你可以告诉他们要穿得漂亮。
But even if they were paid people, they would have not known how the trick was done.
但即使他们得到报酬，他们也不知道这个把戏是如何完成的。
There was no reason for anyone to know ahead of time.
没有理由让任何人提前知道。
Copperfield's team, by the way, says no audience members were paid.
顺便说一句，科波菲尔的团队表示没有向观众支付报酬。
They say the woman who claims she was paid to be there must have been on the production staff.
他们说，那位声称自己得到报酬的女士肯定是剧组的工作人员。
And Ed says an enormous amount of work was done to make sure the trick would fool people.
埃德说，为了确保这个技巧能够愚弄人们，我们做了大量的工作。
Ed didn't want to talk about or confirm the mechanics of the trick.
艾德不想谈论或确认这个技巧的原理。
But he said they did a whole dry run beforehand out in Los Angeles.
但他说他们事先在洛杉矶进行了一次完整的演练。
The idea to make the Statue of Liberty disappear came from an illusion designer named Jim Steinmeyer.
让自由女神像消失的想法来自一位名叫吉姆·斯坦迈尔的幻觉设计师。
Copperfield's team, with the help of a guy named Don Wayne, added all kinds of improvements and built the stage.
科波菲尔的团队在唐·韦恩 (Don Wayne) 的帮助下，进行了各种改进并建造了舞台。
As a test, they used it to make the moon disappear.
作为测试，他们用它让月亮消失。
They set the stage up basically in this parking lot.
他们基本上把舞台搭建在这个停车场。
Yeah, we were in a parking lot.
是的，我们当时在停车场。
Because the stage was enormous.
因为舞台很大。
David thought that we have to do kind of a demonstration to work out the bugs before we haul this thing to New York.
大卫认为，在我们把这个东西拖到纽约之前，我们必须做一些演示来解决这些错误。
A bunch of top magicians in LA sat on the stage.
台上坐着一群洛杉矶顶尖的魔术师。
Copperfield made the moon disappear.
科波菲尔让月亮消失了。
And everyone gave notes.
每个人都做了笔记。
Tweaks to make it better, so you could fool a real audience.
进行调整使其变得更好，这样你就可以愚弄真正的观众。
Ed says the night of the filming at the Statue of Liberty, it was clear to him that the people in the audience were fooled.
艾德说，在自由女神像拍摄的那天晚上，他很清楚观众们被愚弄了。
I asked him why in a couple of shots the audience seemed a little fake to me.
我问他为什么在几个镜头中观众在我看来有点假。
He had a pretty good explanation, which is that they filmed the trick multiple times.
他有一个很好的解释，那就是他们多次拍摄了这个动作。
Copperfield's team officially denies this.
科波菲尔的团队正式否认了这一点。
Ed says it's so, though.
不过埃德说确实如此。
I think that maybe after we did it about the third or fourth time, some of the people that were sitting on this platform may have had an idea as to what was going on.
我想也许在我们做了第三次或第四次之后，坐在这个平台上的一些人可能已经知道发生了什么。
I grilled Ed for an hour about this.
我为此盘问了埃德一个小时。
And for what it's worth, I believe him when he says the audience was not in on it.
不管怎样，当他说观众不参与其中时，我相信他。
Though I do have this tiny sliver of doubt.
尽管我确实有一点点怀疑。
Which I have to say, I kind of enjoy the feeling of.
我不得不说，我很享受这种感觉。
David Copperfield told us he was disappointed that we wanted to do our story on a trick that's over 30 years old.
大卫·科波菲尔 (David Copperfield) 告诉我们，他对我们想用一个已有 30 多年历史的戏法来讲述我们的故事感到失望。
He said he had better stuff now, stuff he had just invented that he's totally jazzed about.
他说他现在有了更好的东西，他刚刚发明的东西让他非常着迷。
You need to see it, he said.
你需要看到它，他说。
So Ira and I went to a show in Las Vegas.
所以艾拉和我去看了拉斯维加斯的一场演出。
Copperfield is 60 years old now and doing two or three shows a day.
科波菲尔现在 60 岁了，每天演出两到三场。
That's just how he rolls.
他就是这样滚动的。
The other year, he did over 600 performances.
另一年，他演出了 600 多场。
The show is not all to my taste, but it was amazing.
这个节目并不完全符合我的口味，但它是惊人的。
The work of an obsessive person, driven to keep creating new things.
这是一个痴迷者的工作，不断创造新事物。
At one point, the lights went out, just for a brief moment.
有一次，灯灭了，只是短暂的一刻。
And when they came back on, an enormous flying saucer had appeared, right over our heads.
当他们回来时，一个巨大的飞碟出现在我们头顶上方。
I mean, huge.
我的意思是，巨大。
It took up a good part of the theater.
它占据了剧院的很大一部分。
And it moved like the Millennium Falcon or something, hovering and banking-- the way you imagine flying saucers moving when you were a kid.
它的移动方式就像千年隼之类的东西，盘旋和倾斜——就像你小时候想象的飞碟移动的方式一样。
It was this moment of sheer surprise and delight and joy.
这一刻充满了纯粹的惊喜、喜悦和喜悦。
I don't care how he did it.
我不在乎他是怎么做到的。
It's me using leverage and slack and all sorts of things like that.
是我利用杠杆和松弛以及诸如此类的东西。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week, with more stories of This American Life.
下周将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。