617: Fermi’s Paradox - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #617 | July 6, 2018 617: Fermi’s Paradox Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 617 集 | 2018 年 7 月 6 日 617：费米悖论 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass So are you thinking about this a lot??
序言 Ira Glass 那么你是否经常思考这个问题？
I got sad about it on the training again this morning.
今天早上的训练中我再次为此感到难过。
It comes at totally random moments, you know?
它是在完全随机的时刻出现的，你知道吗？
That's David Kestenbaum, one of the producers of our program.
那是大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆，我们节目的制作人之一。
And to understand what he's been sad about, I think it's not going to make any sense unless you know that he's a physicist.
要了解他为何感到悲伤，我认为除非你知道他是一名物理学家，否则就没有意义。
He has a PhD in particle physics.
他拥有粒子物理学博士学位。
He was on one of the teams that discovered the top quark at Fermilab back in the '90s, before he became a journalist.
在他成为一名记者之前，他是 90 年代费米实验室发现顶夸克的团队之一。
So he thinks like a scientist.
所以他像科学家一样思考。
And he recently stumbled across a story he'd never heard before about Enrico Fermi, the physicist that Fermilab is actually named for.
最近，他偶然发现了一个他以前从未听说过的关于恩里科·费米的故事，费米实验室实际上是以这位物理学家的名字命名的。
So the story goes that this is 1950.
故事是这样的，现在是 1950 年。
Fermi's visiting Los Alamos.
费米正在访问洛斯阿拉莫斯。
Los Alamos, where they developed the atomic bomb?
洛斯阿拉莫斯，他们在那里研制出原子弹？
Yeah.
是的。
And they're sitting around at lunch.
他们坐在一起吃午饭。
It's Fermi and a handful of other physicists and they start talking about extraterrestrials.
费米和其他几位物理学家开始谈论外星人。
One of the scientists who was there remembers that they talked about some New Yorker cartoon, which had flying saucers and cheerful aliens stealing our trash cans.
在场的一位科学家记得他们谈论过《纽约客》的一部漫画，其中有飞碟和快乐的外星人偷走了我们的垃圾桶。
They joked about it.
他们开玩笑说这件事。
And then out of nowhere, Fermi says something like, so where are they?
然后费米不知从哪里冒出来说了这样的话，那么他们在哪里？
Yeah, somehow everybody knew exactly what he meant.
是的，不知怎的，每个人都清楚他的意思。
The idea was basically that, like, the galaxy is this huge place, right?
这个想法基本上是，银河系是一个巨大的地方，对吧？
Hundreds of billions of stars.
数千亿星辰。
It's been around for billions of years.
它已经存在了数十亿年。
If you believe that intelligent life is something that just arises given enough time, where is everybody?
如果你相信智慧生命只要有足够的时间就会出现，那么每个人都在哪里？
Like, there have been billions of years, where civilizations could have developed and become way more advanced than we are and traveled from star to star, sent signals or something.
就像，已经有数十亿年了，文明可能已经发展并变得比我们先进得多，并且从一个星球旅行到另一个星球，发送信号或其他东西。
Where are they?
他们在哪里？
If that's right, where are they?
如果是的话，他们在哪里？
This question became known as the Fermi Paradox, which goes like this.
这个问题被称为费米悖论，它是这样的。
If it's so likely that intelligent life exists elsewhere, where is it?
如果其他地方很可能存在智慧生命，那么它在哪里？
Why hasn't anybody shown up?
怎么还没人出现？
And of course, the simple answer to that would be, well, nobody else exists.
当然，简单的答案是，没有其他人存在。
And I had never thought-- it made me think, maybe we're alone.
我从来没有想过——这让我想到，也许我们是孤独的。
I really thought that for the first time.
我真的第一次这么想。
Yeah, it made me really sad.
是的，这让我真的很难过。
I had never thought about it seriously before.
我以前从未认真思考过这个问题。
I had always assumed that life was everywhere.
我一直以为生命无处不在。
But he's making a really serious point here.
但他在这里提出了一个非常严肃的观点。
He's raising a tough question.
他提出了一个棘手的问题。
So for months now, when David's brushing his teeth or doing nothing in particular, it'll hit him again.
因此，几个月来，当大卫刷牙或没有做任何特别的事情时，它会再次袭击他。
Maybe we're alone in the universe.
也许我们在宇宙中是孤独的。
Like this morning, on the train.
就像今天早上，在火车上。
The specific thought I was having was that this would mean that there's nobody out there who knows more than we do, like, about science, about-- there are no better songs.
我的具体想法是，这意味着没有人比我们知道更多，比如关于科学，关于——没有更好的歌曲了。
There are no better books.
没有更好的书了。
This is it, you know?
就是这个，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
David Kestenbaum Like, what we know is it.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 就像我们所知道的那样。
What we are is it.
我们就是这样。
Why is your response not sadness?
为什么你的反应不是悲伤？
Of course that's sad.
当然这是悲伤的。
This whole thing reminds me of just a really, really old Woody Allen movie-- it might be Annie Hall-- where there's a scene of him as a kid.
整件事让我想起一部非常非常老的伍迪·艾伦电影——可能是《安妮·霍尔》——其中有他小时候的场景。
And he's saying to some adult-- she's saying, why didn't you do your homework or something like that.
他对某个成年人说——她说，你为什么不做作业或类似的事情。
And he's like, well, because the universe is expanding.
他说，嗯，因为宇宙正在膨胀。
And then the adult is like, why is that any of your business?
然后成年人就会说，为什么这关你的事？
And that's my question for you.
这就是我要问你的问题。
Why is it any of your business?
为什么这关你的事？
Oh, I totally read that the other way.
哦，我完全是从另一个角度读到的。
I was like, he's making a serious point.
我当时想，他说得很严肃。
Why is no one listening to him?
为什么没有人听他说话？
See, that's the problem.
你看，这就是问题所在。
I'm in his shoes and I'm not making a joke.
我站在他的立场上，我不是在开玩笑。
I feel like if you were able to really imagine it, it would make you sad.
我觉得如果你真的能够想象它，你会感到难过。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
David Kestenbaum Yeah.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 是的。
When you look up at the stars, do you think about what they are, and the distances and stuff, and all that?
当你仰望星星时，你是否会想到它们是什么、距离等等？
No, not in a deep way.
不，不是很深。
David Kestenbaum I mean, it's so easy not to feel anything.
David Kestenbaum 我的意思是，很容易感觉不到任何东西。
But it's a crazy thing you're looking at, just how small we are and how big it is.
但这是一件疯狂的事情，我们是多么渺小，而它却是多么庞大。
David tried to explain the feeling that he was having to me in a bunch of different ways.
大卫试图用多种不同的方式向我解释他的感受。
And the explanation that made the most sense to me was when he told me that he'd been looking at videos with his five-year-old son, Augie, who's really into space.
对我来说最有意义的解释是当他告诉我他一直在和他五岁的儿子奥吉一起看视频时，奥吉非常喜欢太空。
Videos of the Apollo moon missions, with astronauts happily bouncing around on the lunar surface and driving in that moonbuggy they had.
阿波罗登月任务的视频，宇航员在月球表面快乐地蹦蹦跳跳，驾驶着他们的月球车。
And David found himself just looking at where they were, really looking at the moon.
大卫发现自己只是看着他们所在的位置，实际上是在看着月亮。
Oh, look how dead it is.
哦，看看它死得多惨。
There is nothing there.
那里什么也没有。
The moon is just this dusty, awful rock.
月亮就是这块布满灰尘、可怕的岩石。
And what if it's like that everywhere.
如果到处都是这样怎么办？
You know, liquid methane oceans and whatever rocks, but no life at all.
你知道，液态甲烷海洋和其他岩石，但根本没有生命。
What if that's the rest of the galaxy?
如果那是银河系的其余部分怎么办？
Space just seemed like some horrible, awful, dangerous place to me.
对我来说，太空似乎是一个可怕、可怕、危险的地方。
I see that.
我明白了。
There's no hope.
没有希望了。
It's just death out there.
那里只有死亡。
It's a lot of pressure if we're the only thing going on.
如果我们是唯一的事情，压力会很大。
It's a lonely thought.
这是一个孤独的想法。
I first found out that David was thinking about all this at our staff story meeting a couple of weeks ago.
我第一次发现大卫在几周前的员工故事会议上正在考虑这一切。
And I'll be honest, when he told everybody that he was upset about the Fermi Paradox, we all laughed at him.
老实说，当他告诉大家他对费米悖论感到不安时，我们都嘲笑他。
Like OK, that's what's upsetting you?
就像好吧，这就是让你心烦意乱的原因？
Which he gets, but it doesn't help him.
他得到了，但这对他没有帮助。
I can't find anyone to really talk it through with.
我找不到可以真正交谈的人。
Yeah.
是的。
I feel like when I say it, people are like, yeah, I don't know, or I always thought that.
我觉得当我这么说时，人们会说，是的，我不知道，或者我一直这么认为。
The thing that bugs me about it is he's making a real scientific argument.
让我烦恼的是他正在提出一个真正的科学论证。
I wanted to talk through the science of it with somebody.
我想和某人讨论一下它的科学原理。
It's not just a "what do you think?
这不仅仅是“你觉得怎么样？
I bet you they're there.
我敢打赌他们就在那儿。
I bet you they're not there." He's making up a physics point, you know?
我敢打赌他们不在那儿。”他正在编造一个物理点，你知道吗？
Well, today on our radio program, stories from the one civilization we know does exist, stories of people who head out on missions here on our own planet to vanquish their own loneliness.
好吧，今天在我们的广播节目中，我们所知道的确实存在的一个文明的故事，人们前往我们自己的星球执行任务以克服自己的孤独的故事。
We hear from a 9-year-old girl, a married couple, and of course, David.
我们收到了一位 9 岁女孩、一对已婚夫妇的来信，当然还有大卫。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act 1, "I Think We're Alone Now." So none of us would satisfyingly engage our coworker, David Kestenbaum, about Fermi's paradox.
第一幕，“我想我们现在很孤独。”因此，我们中没有人会满意地与我们的同事大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆讨论费米悖论。
He needed a physicist to talk to to help him figure out what to think.
他需要一位物理学家来交谈，以帮助他弄清楚该怎么想。
So he went to talk to one of his old physics professors from when he got his PhD at Harvard.
因此，他去拜访了一位在哈佛大学获得博士学位时的老物理学教授。
Her name is Melissa Franklin.
她的名字叫梅丽莎·富兰克林。
Her specialty is particle physics.
她的专业是粒子物理学。
Here's what happened.
事情是这样的。
I went to see Melissa because I figured for sure she would understand.
我去找梅丽莎，因为我确信她会理解。
When I was a student, I'd go to her with physics problems but also life problems.
当我还是个学生的时候，我会向她提出物理问题和生活问题。
Arguably, this was both.
可以说，这两者都是。
So there's this thing that's been bugging me.
所以有件事一直困扰着我。
And every time I tell people about it, they just laugh.
每次我告诉人们这件事时，他们只是笑。
[LAUGHING] Melissa Franklin OK, I'm laughing first.
[笑]梅丽莎富兰克林好吧，我先笑了。
I told her the story about Fermi at lunch and his question, where is everybody?
午餐时我向她讲述了费米的故事以及他的问题：大家都在哪里？
We talk about these things all the time, you know, casually or just over beers or coffee and it's all a joke.
我们一直在谈论这些事情，你知道，随意地或者只是在喝啤酒或咖啡时谈论这些事情，这都是一个笑话。
But it felt really serious.
但感觉真的很严重。
I don't think-- honestly, you say that we talk about these things all the time over beer, but I don't think people actually do.
我不认为——老实说，你说我们总是一边喝啤酒一边谈论这些事情，但我认为人们实际上并没有这样做。
They think about extraterrestrials.
他们想到了外星人。
We think about what messages-- I've thought for hours about what messages they would send, what messages I would send, how to communicate with them.
我们思考什么消息——我花了几个小时思考他们会发送什么消息，我会发送什么消息，以及如何与他们沟通。
But it actually, until you walked in here today, I'd never thought maybe there weren't any.
但事实上，直到你今天走进这里之前，我从来没有想过也许没有。
Honestly, I was feeling a little choked up when I got to the part about how I had been thinking we might be alone.
老实说，当我谈到我一直认为我们可能是孤独的部分时，我感到有点哽咽。
I thought she would be sympathetic, but she kind of rolled her eyes, just like everybody else.
我以为她会同情我，但她像其他人一样翻了个白眼。
Look, I mean there's so-- look, compared to seeing all the polar bears die, this is not sad.
听着，我的意思是，与看到所有北极熊死去相比，这并不悲伤。
So here, the point is there were polar bears and now there aren't any.
所以这里的重点是曾经有北极熊，现在没有了。
And there, there were never anybody and we're sad.
那里从来没有人，我们很伤心。
There's still nobody there!
那里还没人啊！
I guess, I get that it's a weird kind of sadness, but it's a real thing I feel.
我想，我知道这是一种奇怪的悲伤，但这是我真实的感受。
I know you feel that.
我知道你有这种感觉。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know you do feel bad, but what do you feel about the polar bears?
我知道你确实感觉很糟糕，但是你对北极熊有什么感觉呢？
This was something I also felt very alone in my worrying about it, you know?
这也是我在担心的过程中感到非常孤独的事情，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I would say to my wife, you know, I was thinking again today we might be alone in the universe.
我会对我的妻子说，你知道，我今天又在想我们可能在宇宙中孤独一人。
And she's like, I know, sweetie.
她就像，我知道，亲爱的。
Like, just think about it for real, like, for real.
就像，真实地思考一下，真实地思考一下。
Not just as a "hey, what are the odds we're alone," or this or that.
不仅仅是“嘿，我们独自一人的可能性有多大”，或者这个或那个。
For real, because it might be true.
是真的，因为这可能是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
Do you think it's really hard?
你觉得真的很难吗？
Maybe you're just having college thoughts when you're 45.
也许你在 45 岁的时候才开始有了上大学的想法。
But then we got down to it, the thing that I'd come for.
但后来我们开始认真对待我来的目的。
Melissa started doing this thing that I'd forgotten physicists sometimes do when you ask a question.
梅丽莎开始做我忘记了物理学家有时在你问问题时会做的事情。
They ask you more questions.
他们会问你更多问题。
What exactly do you mean by being alone?
你所说的孤独到底是什么意思？
Let's properly define the question here.
让我们在这里正确定义这个问题。
You're talking about no intelligent life or no life at all?
你是说没有智慧生命或者根本就没有生命？
What if there's one crappy plant on another planet?
如果另一个星球上有一种蹩脚的植物怎么办？
How would you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
What if advanced life like us is just a mathematical improbability, a total fluke?
如果像我们这样的高级生命只是数学上的不可能，完全是侥幸怎么办？
And then you would say, OK, if that's the case, I have to believe in God.
然后你会说，好吧，如果是这样的话，我必须相信上帝。
So that's what you're saying.
所以这就是你所说的。
How many physicists do you know who believe in God?
你知道有多少物理学家相信上帝？
Six.
六。
David Kestenbaum I don't think Fermi thought we were alone.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 我不认为费米认为我们是孤独的。
And Melissa didn't think we were alone either.
梅丽莎也不认为我们是孤独的。
Come on, she said.
来吧，她说。
There are lots of possible explanations for why we haven't found intelligent life.
对于为什么我们还没有发现智慧生命，有很多可能的解释。
It doesn't have to be that we're alone.
我们不一定是孤独的。
She ran through some of them with me.
她和我一起浏览了其中一些。
OK, here we go.
好的，我们开始吧。
David Kestenbaum There are lists of them online that scientists and other people have come up with.
David Kestenbaum 科学家和其他人在网上列出了这些物质的清单。
I have to say, they were not encouraging.
我不得不说，他们并不鼓舞人心。
For example, maybe other life has arisen, but just not intelligent life.
例如，也许其他生命已经出现，但只是不是智慧生命。
In other words, there are microbes but nothing else, which would be a bummer.
换句话说，只有微生物，但没有其他东西，这将是一个无赖。
The next one's a bummer, too.
下一个也太惨了
It's the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself.
自我毁灭是智慧生命的本质。
That's really sad.
这真是令人难过。
If that was the reason, that would be really sad.
如果是这个原因的话，那真是太可悲了。
Let me remind you that Fermi, when he asked this question, was at Los Alamos.
让我提醒你，当费米问这个问题时，他正在洛斯阿拉莫斯。
They just built the first atomic bombs.
他们刚刚制造了第一颗原子弹。
They were about to build the first hydrogen bombs, which would be thousands of times more powerful.
他们即将制造第一颗氢弹，其威力将增加数千倍。
That leads us nicely to the next possibility.
这很好地引导我们走向下一个可能性。
It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy others.
毁灭他人是智慧生命的本质。
That would also be sad.
那也会令人悲伤。
Another possible explanation was called the Inflation Hypothesis and the Youngness Argument.
另一种可能的解释被称为通货膨胀假说和年轻论点。
Neither of us could understand the physics of that one.
我们俩都无法理解其中的物理原理。
Something to do with synchronous gauge probability distribution.
与同步规范概率分布有关。
This one made sense, though.
不过，这是有道理的。
Everyone is listening.
每个人都在听。
No one is transmitting.
没有人在传送。
Yeah, I guess it takes less energy to listen than to transmit.
是的，我想聆听比传输需要更少的能量。
Oh, that's a good point.
哦，这是一个好点。
Melissa Franklin Yeah.
梅丽莎·富兰克林 是的。
Then there was the zoo hypothesis.
然后是动物园假说。
Basically, that aliens have left us alone undisturbed as a kind of intergalactic nature preserve.
基本上，外星人让我们不受干扰，就像一种星际自然保护区。
Or this one, aliens are here right now, we just haven't figured it out.
或者这个，外星人现在就在这里，我们只是还没弄清楚。
Melissa liked that one.
梅丽莎喜欢那个。
I mean, how would we know if cockroaches were alien or not?
我的意思是，我们怎么知道蟑螂是否是外星物种？
I mean, they have DNA.
我的意思是，他们有DNA。
They seem very much like part of our family tree.
他们看起来很像我们家谱的一部分。
But maybe they make themselves seem like our family tree in order to live here.
但也许他们为了住在这里而让自己看起来像我们的家谱。
Because how could they live here if they weren't?
因为如果他们不这样做，他们怎么能住在这里呢？
Be serious for a second.
严肃一点。
Melissa Franklin I can't believe that you get to decide what's serious.
梅丽莎·富兰克林 我不敢相信你能决定什么是严肃的事情。
You are so, so wrong!
你真是大错特错了！
You go, oh, oh, stop.
你走吧，哦，哦，停下来。
Oh, don't be silly.
哦，别傻了。
And you're the one bringing up the crazy things, like you're going to cry because there's no extraterrestrial intelligence.
而你就是那个提出疯狂事情的人，就像你会因为没有外星智慧生物而哭泣一样。
Jesus.
耶稣。
OK.
好的。
Let's go talk to Paul.
我们去和保罗谈谈吧。
I need to talk to Paul.
我需要和保罗谈谈。
I want to ask him now.
我现在就想问他。
OK.
好的。
David Kestenbaum Paul is Paul Horowitz.
大卫·凯斯坦鲍姆·保罗是保罗·霍洛维茨。
He's also a professor here, and conveniently, one of the pioneers behind the search for extraterrestrial life.
他也是这里的一名教授，而且是寻找外星生命的先驱之一。
He's been at it for decades.
他已经从事这行几十年了。
He did one of the early searches for extraterrestrial signals at the giant Arecibo Observatory.
他在巨大的阿雷西博天文台进行了早期的地外信号搜索之一。
There is a photo of him and Carl Sagan and Steven Spielberg-- you know, Close Encounters, ET-- throwing the on switch for another telescope search for signals from other worlds.
有一张他和卡尔·萨根和史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格的照片——你知道，《近距离接触》，《外星人》——打开另一台望远镜寻找来自其他世界的信号。
I know Paul because he taught one of my classes way back.
我认识保罗，因为他很久以前就教过我的一门课。
He's 74 years old now.
他现在74岁了。
Paul we need your help.
保罗，我们需要你的帮助。
David Kestenbaum Paul, David Kestenbaum.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 保罗，大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。
Hi, hi, hi, hi.
嗨，嗨，嗨，嗨。
David Kestenbaum How are you doing?
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 你好吗？
I hadn't reached out to Paul originally because, honestly, I was intimidated.
我最初没有联系保罗，因为说实话，我被吓到了。
I was upset about the Fermi Paradox?
我对费米悖论感到不安？
I figured he'd think that was silly.
我想他会认为这很愚蠢。
But now here we were.
但现在我们来了。
And it crossed my mind for the first time that we might be alone.
我第一次想到我们可能会孤身一人。
And it made me really sad.
这让我非常难过。
That felt like a real thing.
那感觉就像是真实的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
David Kestenbaum Did you ever go through anything like that?
David Kestenbaum 你经历过这样的事情吗？
You don't?
你不这么认为吗？
Paul Horowitz No, I think-- I think the Fermi Paradox is a serious question.
保罗·霍洛维茨 不，我认为——我认为费米悖论是一个严肃的问题。
Yeah.
是的。
Paul Horowitz I think there's probably some good answers.
保罗·霍洛维茨（Paul Horowitz） 我认为可能有一些很好的答案。
The unbounded time is a problem.
无限的时间是一个问题。
Maybe, he says, civilizations don't last long enough to figure out how to travel between stars.
他说，也许文明存在的时间还不够长，不足以弄清楚如何在恒星之间旅行。
Maybe they last 10,000 years or 100,000 years.
也许它们能持续一万年或十万年。
And maybe traveling through space is just too onerous, the vast distances.
也许穿越太空太繁重了，距离太远了。
Maybe civilizations live long enough to communicate with each other, he says.
他说，也许文明寿命足够长，可以相互交流。
In which case, we could hear from them.
在这种情况下，我们可以收到他们的来信。
We haven't been listening that long, just a few decades.
我们听的时间不长，只有几十年。
And who knows?
谁知道呢？
We may not be looking in the right way.
我们可能没有以正确的方式寻找。
Paul's been thinking about that problem.
保罗一直在思考这个问题。
It's interesting, because just as you walked in, I'm working on a new scheme to do the entire sky all the time looking for optical pulses.
这很有趣，因为就在你走进去的时候，我正在研究一个新方案，一直在整个天空中寻找光脉冲。
But you cannot dismiss the Fermi Paradox.
但你不能忽视费米悖论。
Yeah.
是的。
Paul Horowitz The best you could do is squirm, and wave your hands, and say there are some ways for you not to be sad.
保罗·霍洛维茨 你能做的最好的事情就是蠕动一下，挥挥手，说有一些方法可以让你不感到悲伤。
Are there any physics things that make you sad like that?
有没有什么物理现象让你如此悲伤？
Well, what really bothers me is, what happens after you're dead?
好吧，真正困扰我的是，你死后会发生什么？
Is it just like they switch off the light and there's never anything ever, ever again that you experience?
是不是就像他们关掉灯之后，你就再也没有经历过任何事情了？
Can that really be?
真的可以吗？
This was not a physics problem, per se, though it is a problem.
这本身并不是一个物理问题，尽管它是一个问题。
And you can think about it like a physicist.
你可以像物理学家一样思考它。
I suppose there's some precedent for it.
我想这是有先例的。
Because before you were born, you know, there was nothing, right?
因为在你出生之前，你知道，什么都没有，对吧？
But I have a hard time wrapping my mind around being dead.
但我很难接受死亡这一事实。
And this probably becomes more of a problem when you get old, because you realize it's actually going to happen.
当你变老时，这可能会成为一个更大的问题，因为你意识到这实际上会发生。
That bothers me a lot more than the possibility that there's not other civilizations out there doing whatever they do.
这比没有其他文明在做他们所做的事情的可能性更让我困扰。
It just bothers you.
它只是让你烦恼。
You don't want to be dead, but you don't want to be alive forever.
你不想死，但你也不想永远活着。
Well, actually, if you're dead you probably don't know you're dead.
好吧，实际上，如果你死了，你可能不知道自己已经死了。
But I just can't imagine the state of being dead.
但我就是无法想象死亡的状态。
It's easy to understand.
这很容易理解。
Something dies.
有些东西死了。
It's dead.
它死了。
But if it's you, that's not so easy, because then there's nothing.
但如果是你，那就没那么容易了，因为那就什么都没有了。
It's just-- it's just--
这只是——这只是——
And it bothers you you can't imagine that.
这让你烦恼你无法想象。
Or it bothers you that you--
或者让你烦恼的是你——
I guess.
我猜。
I guess.
我猜。
Melissa Franklin Because you talk about this all the time.
梅丽莎·富兰克林 因为你一直在谈论这个。
Well, because I'm an old guy.
嗯，因为我是个老家伙了。
I could die any minute now, right?
我现在随时都会死，对吧？
OK.
好的。
Paul Horowitz Right?
保罗·霍洛维茨 对吗？
I'm sort of at the average age that everybody around me is dying at.
我正处于我周围每个人即将死去的平均年龄。
Did I put the "at" in twice?
我是否把“at”加了两次？
[LAUGHTER] David Kestenbaum Melissa and I went back to her office.
[笑声] David Kestenbaum Melissa 和我回到了她的办公室。
Honestly, I do think that's part of my sadness about the Fermi Paradox.
老实说，我确实认为这是我对费米悖论感到悲伤的一部分。
I'm older now.
我现在年纪大了。
My parents are getting older.
我的父母年纪越来越大了。
I have kids.
我有孩子。
Questions that used to just seem philosophical, they feel very different now, much more real.
过去看似哲学的问题，现在感觉非常不同，更加真实。
Haven't you felt sad?
你没有感到悲伤吗？
You've never felt-- yeah.
你从未感受过——是的。
You never felt physics-sad like that about something?
你从来没有对某件事感到如此悲伤？
I'm kind of pissed off at the-- I get kind of sad at the speed of light.
我对光速感到有点生气。
Yeah?
是的？
Melissa Franklin Like, why is it so small?
梅丽莎富兰克林 就像，为什么它这么小？
I know.
我知道。
Most people think of the speed of light as pretty fast, but the galaxy's a big place.
大多数人认为光速相当快，但银河系很大。
If we ever start text messaging with aliens, it's going to be a pretty big delay.
如果我们开始与外星人发短信，这将是一个相当大的延迟。
You know, four years to Alpha Centauri, right?
你知道，距半人马座阿尔法星还有四年，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Melissa Franklin I mean, it just sets a tone that's bad.
梅丽莎·富兰克林 我的意思是，这只是定下了不好的基调。
It's just like a speed limit that you can't get over.
这就像你无法逾越的速度限制。
Can we do something, though?
但我们可以做点什么吗？
What is the Drake Equation now?
德雷克方程现在是什么？
Melissa and I sat down and did what we probably should have done from the start.
梅丽莎和我坐下来，做了我们从一开始就应该做的事情。
The Drake Equation is physicist's best attempt to calculate how many other civilizations are out there.
德雷克方程是物理学家计算世界上还有多少其他文明的最佳尝试。
It's quantitative, to the extent that you can be quantitative about this question.
它是定量的，只要你能定量地回答这个问题。
Basically what Fermi might have been doing on a napkin or whatever or at lunch all those years ago.
基本上就是费米多年前可能在餐巾纸或其他什么东西上或在午餐时所做的事情。
n equals r star times f sub p.
n 等于 r star 乘以 f sub p。
(INTERVIEWER) DAVID KESTENBAUM: Can I erase some stuff?
（采访者）DAVID KESTENBAUM：我可以删除一些东西吗？
On the left side of the equation is n.
等式左边是n。
That's the number you're trying to calculate.
这就是您要计算的数字。
How many advanced civilizations are in the galaxy?
银河系中有多少个高级文明？
To calculate n, there are a bunch of other numbers you have to put in and multiply together.
要计算 n，您必须输入一堆其他数字并将其相乘。
You start with how often stars form in the galaxy, then what fraction of those stars have planets around them.
首先要了解恒星在银河系中形成的频率，然后是这些恒星周围有行星的比例。
We actually have data on this.
我们实际上有这方面的数据。
Then you need the odds of life evolving-- which happened pretty quickly here on Earth after it cooled-- the odds of intelligent life developing, and finally, how long you think civilizations last.
然后你需要生命进化的几率——这在地球冷却后很快发生——智慧生命发展的几率，最后，你认为文明能持续多久。
The result, how many advanced civilizations might there be in the galaxy?
那么，银河系中到底有多少个高级文明呢？
156 million.
1.56 亿。
In the galaxy?
在银河系？
David Kestenbaum Yeah.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 是的。
Yeah, in the galaxy.
是的，在银河系。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
David Kestenbaum It made me feel great that that might be true, but then Melissa kept reading.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 这可能是真的，这让我感觉很棒，但随后梅丽莎继续读下去。
Oh, she says, there's a different answer you get if you tweak the numbers a bit, based on how likely you think it is for life to evolve, et cetera.
哦，她说，如果你根据你认为生命进化的可能性等稍微调整一下数字，你会得到不同的答案。
In that case, the number of intelligent civilizations goes way down.
在这种情况下，智慧文明的数量就会大幅减少。
As an example of a low estimate, combining NASA's star formation rates, the rare earth hypothesis, Mayor's view on intelligence, Drake's view of communication, and Shermer's estimate of lifetime, the number of civilizations could be as low as 9.1 times 10 to the minus 11th.
作为一个低估计的例子，结合 NASA 的恒星形成率、稀土假说、市长对智力的看法、德雷克对通信的看法以及谢尔默对寿命的估计，文明的数量可能低至 9.1 乘以 10 的负 11 倍。
Oh.
哦。
What?
什么？
What's the number?
号码是多少？
9 times 10 to the minus 11th.
9 乘以 10 的负 11 次。
In other words, 0.0000.
换句话说，0.0000。
Basically, zero.
基本上为零。
Zero, i.e., suggesting that we are probably alone in this galaxy, and possibly the observable universe.
零，即表明我们可能是这个星系中唯一的，也可能是可观测宇宙中的。
The physicist term for this is that the problem is poorly constrained.
物理学家对此的术语是问题约束不良。
Meaning, basically, we have no idea.
这意味着，基本上，我们不知道。
There could be 156 million alien civilizations out there, or zero, or somewhere in between.
那里可能有 1.56 亿个外星文明，也可能为零，或者介于两者之间。
So the whole thing is kind of a Rorschach test.
所以整个事情有点像罗夏墨迹测试。
I was worried about the possibility that n might be 0.
我担心n可能为0。
Melissa?
梅丽莎？
What I'm worried about is it's 156 million, in which case, we're probably screwed very soon, like any day now.
我担心的是 1.56 亿，在这种情况下，我们可能很快就会完蛋，就像现在的任何一天一样。
Boom, aliens are going to come.
轰隆隆，外星人要来了。
156 million in our galaxy?
我们银河系有 1.56 亿？
I love that you're afraid of the other end.
我喜欢你害怕另一端。
Yeah, I am afraid of the other end.
是的，我害怕另一端。
You should be, too.
你也应该如此。
So I should celebrate the silence, the great silence?
所以我应该庆祝沉默，伟大的沉默？
Well, I think, you know, we're in a good place now.
嗯，我想，你知道，我们现在处于一个很好的位置。
I hadn't thought about it that way until this very moment, but it's true.
直到此刻我才这么想，但这是事实。
We haven't encountered some terrifying alien race.
我们还没有遇到什么可怕的外星种族。
And we haven't somehow proven we're alone.
我们还没有以某种方式证明我们是孤独的。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Yeah, we're in the sweet spot.
是的，我们正处于最佳状态。
We're not dead, and there's still hope.
我们还没有死，而且还有希望。
OK, I feel good about that.
好吧，我对此感觉很好。
Melissa Franklin OK, good.
梅丽莎·富兰克林 好的，很好。
I'm glad.
我很高兴。
I realize that is the least physicsy resolution you can come to, that we should feel good not knowing the answer to some big question.
我意识到这是你能得到的最不符合物理的解决方案，我们应该在不知道某个大问题的答案的情况下感到高兴。
But I do feel better.
但我确实感觉好多了。
I think I turned the corner when we talked to Paul, because Paul agreed that Fermi had posed a serious problem.
我想当我们和保罗交谈时我就扭转了局面，因为保罗同意费米提出了一个严重的问题。
But he'd looked it in the face and he came out on the other side, still believing intelligent life is out there and looking for it.
但他正视了这一点，但他却站在了另一边，仍然相信智慧生命就在那里，并在寻找它。
He probably won't hear anything, but I think I'm OK with that.
他可能什么也听不到，但我想我对此没意见。
Maybe it is better than no.
也许这比没有好。
What is this sound?
这是什么声音？
Dan Werthimer Yeah, so nature produces a lot of radio signals.
Dan Werthimer 是的，大自然会产生大量无线电信号。
And it's the vibrations of molecules and atoms that are in dust clouds, and in stars, and in galaxies.
这是尘埃云、恒星和星系中分子和原子的振动。
Dan Werthimer.
丹·韦蒂默。
He's the chief scientist at the SETI research center in Berkeley.
他是伯克利 SETI 研究中心的首席科学家。
SETI is the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence.
SETI 是寻找外星智慧生命的活动。
He sent us this sound of data from one of the world's biggest radio telescopes, the Arecibo telescope in Puerto Rico, which points at stars, listening for signals sent by other intelligent life.
他从世界上最大的射电望远镜之一——波多黎各的阿雷西博望远镜向我们发送了这些数据的声音，该望远镜指向星星，监听其他智慧生命发出的信号。
What we're listening for is an eee or ooo.
我们听到的是 eee 或 ooo。
We don't know what frequency.
我们不知道什么频率。
Or maybe a bip-bip-bip-bip.
或者也许是嘟嘟嘟嘟嘟。
It might be buried.
它可能会被埋葬。
It might be a very weak kind of eee, but it'd be buried in the static that you hear when you point your telescope to the stars.
它可能是一种非常微弱的电子电子，但它会被埋藏在当你将望远镜指向星星时听到的静电中。
We've only just begun looking for other life.
我们才刚刚开始寻找其他生命。
And of all the radio frequencies we can search, we've looked at fewer than 1%.
在我们可以搜索的所有无线电频率中，我们只查看了不到 1%。
In 40 years, Dan says, we have found nothing promising yet.
丹说，40 年来，我们还没有发现任何有希望的事情。
Coming up, searching for intelligent life in your own marriage.
接下来，在自己的婚姻中寻找智慧的生活。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's show, Fermi's Paradox.
今天的节目是费米悖论。
We have stories of people heading out on their own on very personal quest to figure out are we alone?
我们有这样的故事：人们独自出发，寻求非常个人化的探索，想弄清楚我们是孤独的吗？
We've arrived at Act 2 of our program.
我们已经到了计划的第二幕。
Act 2, "Two Can Be as Sad as One."
第二幕，“两个人可以像一个人一样悲伤”。
We're in this show about loneliness.
我们在这个关于孤独的节目中。
We now turn to one of the loneliest experiences a person can possibly have, and that's marriage.
现在我们来谈谈一个人可能经历的最孤独的经历之一，那就是婚姻。
I think the thing that I was least prepared for in marriage is how lonely it can be, when things go badly, I mean.
我认为我在婚姻中最没有准备的事情是，当事情变得糟糕时，它会是多么孤独。
And there's this recording of this couple trying to get past all the stuff that's dividing them that I think illustrates really well how hard that can be and what it really means to do it.
这段录音记录了这对夫妇试图克服所有分裂他们的事情，我认为这很好地说明了这有多困难以及做到这一点的真正意义。
This recording is from this new podcast in which a real-life therapist records her real-life sessions with real couples who've agreed to be recorded.
这段录音来自这个新的播客，其中一位现实生活中的治疗师记录了她与同意录音的真实夫妇的现实生活中的治疗。
The therapist is Esther Perel, who's also the author of the books Mating in Captivity and the upcoming, The State of Affairs.
治疗师是埃丝特·佩雷尔 (Esther Perel)，她也是《圈养交配》和即将出版的《事态》一书的作者。
I've listened to a few episodes of her podcast now, and OK, my mom was a marriage therapist.
我现在听了她播客的几集，好吧，我妈妈是一名婚姻治疗师。
She wrote a book about her techniques and research.
她写了一本关于她的技术和研究的书。
She did trainings for other therapists.
她为其他治疗师进行培训。
I've been in couples counseling myself with my wife.
我一直在和我的妻子一起自我咨询。
So I know about this world, and I found listening to Perel to be completely fascinating.
所以我了解这个世界，并且我发现听 Perel 非常令人着迷。
She's a very active therapist.
她是一位非常活跃的治疗师。
I think that's the best way to say it.
我认为这是最好的表达方式。
She talks a ton, takes what the couple says to her and then says it back to them in this way where it's like she's a LeBron-level basketball player, passing the ball to them, and then urging them down the court, running alongside, and shouting encouragement and instructions and very occasional razzing along the way.
她说了很多话，接受这对夫妇对她说的话，然后以这种方式回覆给他们，就像她是勒布朗级别的篮球运动员一样，把球传给他们，然后催促他们下场，并肩奔跑，一路上大声鼓励和指示，偶尔还会大声喊叫。
She's such an intense listener that it makes interviewing her a very odd experience.
她是一个非常热心的倾听者，这使得采访她成为一种非常奇怪的经历。
I tried to explain this to her after she and I had been sitting in the studio together for over an hour.
当我和她在工作室一起坐了一个多小时后，我试图向她解释这一点。
I rarely am interviewing somebody-- I'm not sure if I've ever interviewed somebody who's watching me as much as I'm watching them.
我很少采访某人——我不确定我是否采访过像我一样关注他们的人。
Yes, especially when your throat chokes.
是的，尤其是当你喉咙哽住的时候。
When my throat chokes?
当我喉咙哽住的时候？
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
When the little polyvagal nerve quivers, it means that I'm saying something that's reaching you.
当多迷走神经颤动时，就意味着我正在说一些你能听懂的话。
She's talking about the vagus nerve, which runs down your neck and into your body.
她说的是迷走神经，它沿着你的脖子进入你的身体。
Apparently, very revealing.
显然，非常具有启发性。
The therapy session that I found so interesting, and all the sessions in her podcast, are a kind of session that Perel does a lot of.
我发现非常有趣的治疗课程，以及她播客中的所有课程，都是佩雷尔经常做的一种课程。
She does these consultations where instead of people coming in week after week, like normal therapy, a couple will come in just one time, for two or three hours.
她进行这些咨询时，不像正常治疗那样一周又一周地来咨询，而是一对夫妇只来一次，持续两到三个小时。
And then that's it.
然后就这样了。
No more therapy.
不再需要治疗。
People fly in from all over for this.
人们为此从四面八方飞来。
Perel only takes couples whose problems she thinks she can make a dent in in so little time.
佩雷尔只接受那些她认为可以在短时间内解决问题的夫妇。
And what can you accomplish in a two or three-hour session, where you see the people once?
在两三个小时的会议中，当你与人们见面一次时，你能完成什么？
So much.
就这么多。
The story that the people come in with is not the story they leave with.
人们带来的故事并不是他们离开时的故事。
That's the first goal.
这是第一个目标。
Yeah.
是的。
Esther Perel The second thing is to see if they can actually experience with each other, even a glimpse of it, that which they may be longing for.
Esther Perel 第二件事是看看他们是否能够真正彼此体验，甚至是一瞥，这可能是他们所渴望的。
Can they have a different kind of connection, a different kind of experience of themselves and with each other in the room?
他们能否拥有不同类型的联系，以及他们自己以及房间里彼此之间的不同体验？
And with most of the couples, can you get them to that point?
对于大多数夫妇来说，你能让他们达到这一点吗？
That seems very advanced.
这看起来很先进。
It can make for suspenseful listening, hearing her try to get couples to that point.
听到她试图让情侣们达到这一点，这可能会让人产生悬念。
This particular couple came into her office on a Wednesday morning this fall and sat on the couch together.
今年秋天的一个星期三早上，这对特别的夫妇来到她的办公室，一起坐在沙发上。
They'd been married for nearly 40 years, middle class people.
他们结婚近四十年了，都是中产阶级。
They met when the woman was just 15.
他们相识时，这名女子才 15 岁。
They have children and grandchildren.
他们有孩子和孙子。
And then, three years ago, the wife discovered that her husband had been cheating on her.
然后，三年前，妻子发现丈夫一直在欺骗她。
Not just like with one person for a few months or a few years, but widely and compulsively for most of their marriage.
不仅仅是与一个人相处几个月或几年，而是在他们婚姻的大部分时间里广泛而强迫性地如此。
I mean, for decades.
我的意思是，几十年来。
These were one-night stands and paying for sex, he said.
他说，这些都是一夜情和付费性行为。
They both said they'd been happy together all those years in the marriage with a good sex life, and she wanted to stay together if it was at all possible because she wanted to keep what they'd had that was good.
他们都表示，这些年来他们一直很幸福，性生活也很好，如果可能的话，她想继续在一起，因为她想保留他们所拥有的美好事物。
But you know, being lied to for decades, it's like it robbed her of her past.
但你知道，被欺骗了几十年，就像剥夺了她的过去一样。
She couldn't tell what was real, what to trust.
她分不清什么是真实的，什么是值得信任的。
She told Perel in the session.
她在会议上告诉佩雷尔。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Woman So yeah, I mean, we had a good marriage and that's why I'm still here.
[音频回放] 女人所以是的，我的意思是，我们有一段美好的婚姻，这就是我还在这里的原因。
I mean, he was a good husband.
我的意思是，他是一个好丈夫。
He was the best father ever, always there with our children, always loving to me.
他是有史以来最好的父亲，总是陪伴着我们的孩子，总是爱我。
And I don't doubt for one second that he didn't love me with all of his heart.
我毫不怀疑他没有全心全意地爱我。
I never knew anything was wrong.
我从来不知道有什么不对劲。
And I don't want to say I'm one of those women who lived in a tunnel without any peripheral vision.
我不想说我是那些住在隧道里没有任何余光的女人之一。
If something came up, I'd question him, and he'd tell me the story and I'd believe him.
如果有什么事情发生，我会质问他，他会告诉我这个故事，我会相信他。
Why not believe him?
为什么不相信他呢？
He's never done anything to cause me to mistrust him.
他从来没有做过任何让我不信任他的事情。
Now I look at him, and if he tells me this pen is red, I will turn it 15 different ways today.
现在我看着他，如果他告诉我这支笔是红色的，我今天就会把它变成 15 种不同的方式。
And that's a huge issue for us now.
这对我们来说是一个大问题。
[END PLAYBACK] Ira Glass They spend a little bit of time in the session, not a lot, really, on what might have led him into this double life.
[回放结束] 艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)：他们在会议中花了一点时间，实际上并没有花很多时间来讨论可能导致他陷入双重生活的原因。
He grew up in a violent home, saw his mother regularly beaten by his dad, was beaten himself, and witnessed way more than he could absorb or handle as a kid.
他在一个充满暴力的家庭中长大，看到母亲经常被父亲殴打，自己也被殴打，目睹的事情远远超出了他小时候所能承受或处理的程度。
Perel tells him there are lots of boys who go through that, and then grow up, split their personalities in half, like he'd done, treat women one way when they were away from home, and then be super responsible with their families when they are home.
佩雷尔告诉他，有很多男孩都经历过这些，然后长大了，他们的性格一分为二，就像他所做的那样，当她们离开家时以一种方式对待女性，然后当她们在家时对家人超级负责。
He seems kind of wrecked in the recording.
录音中他看起来有点崩溃。
It's only now that he was finally facing the truth about what he'd done and who he'd been.
直到现在，他才终于面对自己做过的事和自己是谁的真相。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Man I've wasted 59 years living a mask, living a dual life.
[音频回放] 老兄，我已经浪费了 59 年的时间戴着面具，过着双重生活。
My kids didn't really know me.
我的孩子们并不真正了解我。
I was this other person.
我就是另一个人。
As much as I was involved with them, I wasn't present in my life.
尽管我参与了他们的活动，但我却没有出现在我的生活中。
And I can't get that back.
我无法收回它。
I wasted my life.
我浪费了我的生命。
[END PLAYBACK] Ira Glass He insisted he wasn't cheating because he was unhappy in his marriage.
[回放结束] Ira Glass 他坚称自己没有出轨，因为他对自己的婚姻不满意。
He said he was happy.
他说他很高兴。
He said he didn't love any of these women.
他说他不爱这些女人中的任何一个。
And his wife was trying to believe him, that this was a compulsion that had nothing to do with her.
而他的妻子则试图相信他，这是一种强迫行为，与她无关。
But she was also struggling with the fact that her friends and relatives could not understand why she was staying with him after everything he'd done.
但她也苦苦挣扎，因为她的朋友和亲戚无法理解为什么在他做了这一切之后她还要和他在一起。
They judged her, even her own daughter.
他们评判她，甚至她自己的女儿。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Esther Perel And is she mad at you?
[音频回放] Esther Perel 她生你的气吗？
For not throwing him out?
就因为没有把他赶出去？
Woman Well, I did throw him out, but for not ending it.
女人 好吧，我确实把他赶了出去，但没有结束它。
Yeah, they thought I was weak.
是的，他们认为我很弱。
They thought I had Stockholm Syndrome.
他们认为我患有斯德哥尔摩综合症。
They felt I-- you know, because we've been together so long, they just felt that I was too weak in character.
他们觉得我——你知道，因为我们在一起这么久了，他们只是觉得我性格太软弱。
And they didn't like what they saw.
他们不喜欢他们所看到的。
[END PLAYBACK] Ira Glass Perel told me that it was seeing the wife's isolation that made her realize what it was that she wanted to accomplish in this session.
[回放结束] Ira Glass Perel 告诉我，看到妻子的孤立状态让她意识到自己想在这次治疗中实现什么目标。
She's decided to stay, and she needs a dignified way, a way with self-respect, to feel that her choice is valid.
她决定留下来，她需要一种有尊严的方式，一种有自尊的方式，让她觉得她的选择是正确的。
But in order for it to be valid, she needs something from him that I sense she has yet to receive, that he is struggling to give her.
但为了让它有效，她需要从他那里得到一些东西，我觉得她还没有收到，他正在努力给她。
And it's that button that I choose to focus on during the session.
这就是我在会议期间选择关注的按钮。
And what is the thing that she needs from him?
而她需要从他那里得到什么？
She needs a degree of accountability and recognition about the pain that he caused her.
她需要对他给她造成的痛苦承担一定程度的责任和认可。
But now he's so busy with his own pain that he has a hard time owning the hurt that he caused her.
但现在他忙于处理自己的痛苦，以至于很难承认自己对她造成的伤害。
So he feels so bad about himself, that he can't feel bad for her.
所以他对自己感觉很糟糕，所以他不能为她感到难过。
So a lot of the session is Perel trying to get the husband to understand and acknowledge his wife's pain, and I'm going to play a stretch of this now that's several minutes long from the therapy session, starting from when Perel first brings this up.
因此，佩雷尔在治疗过程中的大部分时间都在试图让丈夫理解并承认妻子的痛苦，而我现在将播放一段距离治疗过程长达几分钟的片段，从佩雷尔第一次提出这个问题开始。
And what you hear is this very human thing I think all of us in relationships have done.
你所听到的是这种非常人性化的事情，我认为我们所有人在人际关系中都做过。
He's not able to take in what they're saying to him at first.
一开始他无法理解他们对他说的话。
And it slowly, slowly gets through.
它慢慢地、慢慢地过去了。
Warning, if you're listening to the internet version of our show, we have unbeeped the curse words in this version.
警告，如果您正在收听我们节目的网络版本，我们已经取消了该版本中的脏话。
You can get a beeped version at our website.
您可以在我们的网站上获取嘟嘟声版本。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Esther Perel How much-- how much does he talk about what he did to you versus what happened to him?
[音频回放] Esther Perel 他有多少——有多少谈论他对你所做的事情以及发生在他身上的事情？
I would say he talks more about what happened to him--
我想说他更多地谈论了发生在他身上的事情——
Correct.
正确。
Woman --than what happened to me.
女人——比发生在我身上的事还要多。
OK.
好的。
Esther Perel So listen to her very carefully because I think she may have tried to say this already more than once.
Esther Perel 所以要非常仔细地听她说，因为我认为她可能已经不止一次地说过这句话了。
I really feel that you talk more about you and the pain you're going through than the horrific pain you caused me.
我真的觉得你更多地谈论你自己和你正在经历的痛苦，而不是你给我带来的可怕的痛苦。
All of your pain was self-inflicted.
你所有的痛苦都是你自己造成的。
You made choices.
你做出了选择。
You made decisions.
你做出了决定。
You put yourself out there.
你把自己摆在那里。
But everything that was done to me is not something I asked for and not something I wanted to be party to.
但对我所做的一切都不是我要求的，也不是我想要参与的。
I mean, I know you know you hurt me, but I don't think you really get the magnitude.
我的意思是，我知道你知道你伤害了我，但我认为你并没有真正意识到伤害的严重程度。
Because it always switches back to you.
因为它总是切换回你。
Before you but, can you just tell her what you just heard so that we can know that it reached you?
但是，在你之前，你能告诉她你刚刚听到的消息，以便我们知道你已经收到了消息吗？
That I'm not compassionate to your trauma and I talk more about my own trauma than your trauma.
我对你的创伤没有同情心，我更多地谈论我自己的创伤而不是你的创伤。
Does that pretty well sum it up?
总结得很好吗？
Talking about it just brings us both to such a bad place and all it does is bring out anger and hate from you every time I try to talk about this with you.
谈论这件事只会让我们俩陷入一个如此糟糕的境地，每次我试图与你谈论这件事时，它只会带来你的愤怒和仇恨。
So let me try to help you do this in a way that is more healing and less activating.
因此，让我尝试帮助您以一种更有治愈性、更少激活性的方式做到这一点。
Because you're in a certain phase.
因为你正处于某个阶段。
You've gone from the 59 years of trying to deny everything, numb myself, feel nothing, medicate, and now I'm in touch.
59年来，你一直试图否认一切，麻木自己，感觉不到任何东西，接受药物治疗，现在我联系上了。
I'm in touch with myself.
我与自己保持联系。
I'm figuring it out.
我正在想办法。
I'm putting the pieces together and it's making sense for the first time.
我把这些碎片放在一起，这是第一次有意义。
There is no mask in front of me and I am so deep into myself.
我的面前没有面具，我沉浸在自己的内心深处。
I'm so fricking self-absorbed!
我真是太自恋了！
It's still more about me.
这仍然更多是关于我的。
It was about me then, and it is about me now.
那时是关于我的，现在也是关于我的。
And now you gotta step out of yourself for a moment.
现在你必须暂时走出自我。
If you attend to her primary concern, then she can attend to your primary trajectory.
如果你关注她的主要关注点，那么她就能关注你的主要轨迹。
But she can only do that if there is space inside of her.
但只有当她内心有空间时，她才能做到这一点。
And that space is created because you are saying to her, how are you doing?
这个空间的创建是因为你对她说，你好吗？
from a place of responsibility, not from a place of shame.
来自责任的地方，而不是来自耻辱的地方。
I take responsibility.
我承担责任。
Esther Perel Yeah.
埃丝特·佩雷尔 是的。
Be very clear.
说得非常清楚。
I take 100%.
我拿100%。
There is no excuse.
没有任何借口。
There were a couple of reasons.
有几个原因。
But the problem is that if you go to her and you say to her, I can't believe how I treated you, you have to be able to not say, I feel so bad about me for having done this.
但问题是，如果你去找她，对她说，我不敢相信我是如何对待你的，你必须能够不说，我为自己所做的事情感到很难过。
It's the difference between, I feel so bad about myself, versus I feel bad for you.
这就是“我对自己感觉很糟糕”和“我对你感觉很糟糕”之间的区别。
That makes a lot of sense.
这很有意义。
Esther Perel And what she needs is for you to finally step out of yourself and actually be able to say, I feel so bad for you.
Esther Perel 她需要的是你最终走出自我，真正能够说，我为你感到难过。
I didn't do it to you.
我没有对你这么做。
I didn't cause you all of this pain in your life, but you caused me all this pain in my life.
不是我给你造成了你生命中所有的痛苦，而是你给我造成了我生命中所有的痛苦。
You have to find a way to help me through it.
你必须找到一种方法来帮助我度过难关。
I came to you last night.
昨晚我来找你了。
I hug you and you--
我拥抱你和你——
But people, you're going to help each other, help each other.
但是人们，你们会互相帮助，互相帮助。
You're going to learn that together.
你们将一起学习这一点。
So when you get all upset that he has to, he has to, he doesn't know.
所以当你因为他必须这样做而感到沮丧时，他必须这样做，但他不知道。
He doesn't disagree, but he doesn't know.
他不同意，但他不知道。
So you tell him what you want.
所以你告诉他你想要什么。
Don't tell him what he has to or what he does wrong.
不要告诉他他必须做什么或他做错了什么。
I ask her that all the time.
我一直这样问她。
Tell me what you want, I'm there.
告诉我你想要什么，我就在那里。
I am all in.
我全在。
I am 100% all in.
我100%全力以赴。
I believe you.
我相信你。
Man I am self-absorbed.
伙计，我很自我陶醉。
I got to get out of that.
我必须摆脱这种状况。
It's putting her before my own self needs.
它将她置于我自己的需求之前。
And it's important for me--
这对我来说很重要——
It's beautiful.
很漂亮。
It's beautiful.
很美丽。
But your wife is more isolated than you.
但你的妻子比你更孤立。
OK.
好的。
Esther Perel And she needs not an apology.
Esther Perel 她不需要道歉。
She needs an acknowledgement of her experience.
她需要别人承认她的经历。
Yep.
是的。
Esther Perel It's just that.
埃丝特·佩雷尔 就是这样。
You can use the words you want.
您可以使用您想要的词语。
You can use your body.
你可以使用你的身体。
Let it out.
把它放出来。
I can't imagine what you're going through--
我无法想象你正在经历什么——
That was good.
那很好。
Do you understand the difference?
你明白其中的区别吗？
So at that point, it seems like he's got it.
所以在这一点上，他似乎已经明白了。
You know, nobody ever apologized to him.
你知道，没有人向他道歉。
He has no experience of someone saying, I'm so sorry I hurt you.
他没有经历过有人对你说：对不起，我伤害了你。
So it's not something that he knows to do and that he just sobbed.
所以这不是他知道要做的事情，他只是抽泣。
And then for her, too.
然后对她来说也是如此。
Because until now, see, when she would ask for this, she would also do it with so much venom and so much anger that it was very difficult for him to come close.
因为直到现在，你看，当她提出这样的要求时，她也会带着如此的恶毒和如此的愤怒，让他很难靠近。
It's like she would say, feel for me, but with such aggression sometimes.
就像她会说，对我有感觉，但有时却充满攻击性。
Sometimes, not--
有时，不——
And to be fair, understandable.
公平地说，可以理解。
She's so hurt and she's so upset.
她很伤心，也很难过。
It's a given.
这是给定的。
It's a given that she must have rage inside of her.
可以肯定的是，她内心一定有愤怒。
But it's also a given that when she approaches him with that kind of rage, she won't get the kind of care and compassion that she wants.
但这也是必然的，当她带着那种愤怒接近他时，她不会得到她想要的那种关心和同情。
So how do I soften her so that he can soften?
那么我该如何软化她，让他也软化呢？
Because if she goes at him, then he will stay stiff.
因为如果她向他发起攻击，他就会保持僵硬。
And if he stays stiff, then she will remain more angry and then you are in the same loop.
如果他保持僵硬，那么她就会更加生气，然后你们就会陷入同样的循环。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Esther Perel So I give words to what I know she's asking, but because I'm not experienced-- I don't have her history, I can do it without the edge.
埃丝特·佩雷尔（Esther Perel）所以我回答了我知道她在问的问题，但因为我没有经验——我没有她的历史，所以我可以毫无优势地做到这一点。
And when I can do it without the edge, then he can come forward.
当我能做到没有优势的时候，他就能挺身而出。
And then they can have this new experience with each other, which they haven't been having.
然后他们就可以彼此拥有从未有过的新体验。
That's the enactment that I'm talking about.
这就是我所说的颁布。
I think she actually holds him at that moment.
我想那一刻她确实抱着他。
So you go through this with the two of them and they have this moment.
所以你和他们两个一起经历这一切，他们就有了这一刻。
And he truly seems to understand.
他似乎真的明白了。
And then the next thing that happens is the wife starts talking about her experience.
接下来发生的事情是妻子开始谈论她的经历。
And she says, the reason why she's able to continue staying with him is that she believes that the sex was casual, and that he didn't love anyone else.
她说，她之所以能够继续和他在一起，是因为她认为性行为很随意，而且他不爱其他人。
And then she talks about how she still questions, well, did he love her if he could do all that?
然后她谈到她仍然质疑，好吧，如果他能做到这一切，他还爱她吗？
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Woman I question how could you have really loved me if you did that to me?
[音频回放] 女人，我想知道，如果你那样对我，你怎么可能真正爱我呢？
You know?
你知道？
[END PLAYBACK] Ira Glass And then she says this.
[回放结束] Ira Glass 然后她说了这句话。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Woman You know, when we calculate in my head exactly how many years it was, 22 years.
[音频回放] 女人 你知道，当我们在我的脑海中计算出到底有多少年时，22 年。
22 years.
22年。
We were married 36.
我们36岁结婚。
You take away the two.
你把两个带走。
You take away the 12.
你把12拿走。
You cheated on me for 22 years.
你欺骗了我22年。
It's mind-boggling.
真是令人难以置信。
It's just mind-boggling.
这真是令人难以置信。
Esther Perel Mister, your wife has just said so many important things, and the only thing you respond to is the calculus?
Esther Perel先生，您的妻子刚刚说了那么多重要的事情，而您唯一回应的就是微积分？
We go through this all the time.
我们一直在经历这个。
It's the calculus.
这是微积分。
You have to respond differently than what you just did.
你必须做出与刚才不同的反应。
[END PLAYBACK] Ira Glass It's like he's lost the lesson, and he's talking about himself.
[回放结束] Ira Glass 就好像他忘记了教训，他在谈论自己。
He's defending himself.
他正在为自己辩护。
He's not talking about what she's feeling.
他不是在谈论她的感受。
Well, I'm going to show it to him again.
好吧，我要再给他看一次。
This has to be repeated.
这必须重复一遍。
But I actually have a different experience of him.
但其实我对他有不同的经历。
She just said 22 years, and he receives this like, what a piece of shit I am.
她只是说22年，他的反应是，我真是个废物。
And it's so unbearable.
而且是那么的难以忍受。
And so then he brings out the 12 years to say, I'm not that bad.
然后他拿出12年的经历说，我没那么糟糕。
That's the calculus.
这就是微积分。
So now I'm going to help him stay with her.
所以现在我要帮助他留在她身边。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] You know you have to respond differently than what you just did.
[音频回放] 您知道您必须做出与刚才不同的反应。
You can do better.
你可以做得更好。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
It was a horrible-- it's a horrible thing that you had to go through there.
这是一件可怕的事情，你必须经历那里。
You're my family, and as crazy as it sounds, how can I do this to my family?
你是我的家人，尽管听起来很疯狂，但我怎么能这样对我的家人呢？
[END PLAYBACK] Ira Glass And then he stumbles again.
[回放结束] Ira Glass 然后他再次绊倒。
He tries to reassure his wife that there is no way he's ever going to cheat on her again.
他试图让妻子放心，他再也不会欺骗她了。
And then he starts talking about the lessons that he has learned and how certain it is that he's changed.
然后他开始谈论他学到的教训以及他已经改变的确定性。
In other words, he's talking about himself.
换句话说，他在谈论他自己。
And Perel steps in again.
佩雷尔再次介入。
[AUDIO PLAYBACK] Man And I'm trying to tell you--
[音频回放] 伙计，我想告诉你——
You know what may be more helpful?
你知道什么可能更有帮助吗？
Don't try to convince her.
不要试图说服她。
OK.
好的。
Esther Perel Because you can't be that certain either.
Esther Perel 因为你也不能那么确定。
And most of the time, talk less and touch more.
而且大多数时候，少说话，多接触。
Talk less.
少说话。
You overtalk.
你说得过分了。
So when she gets upset, half the time, all you need to do is hold her and just say I'm here.
因此，当她心烦意乱时，有一半的时候，你所需要做的就是抱着她，告诉她我在这里。
And for the rest, if you allow me, shut the fuck up.
至于剩下的，如果你允许的话，他妈的闭嘴。
[END PLAYBACK] Ira Glass It's interesting.
[回放结束] Ira Glass 很有趣。
There this idea that when you talk through your problems with your partner, it will alleviate loneliness.
有一种观点认为，当你与伴侣谈论你的问题时，会减轻孤独感。
But here they are, talking, and it's just doing the opposite.
但他们在这里说话，却恰恰相反。
Yes, you can build walls with words and insurmountable barriers.
是的，你可以用言语和难以逾越的障碍筑起围墙。
Hearing your podcast, it seems so hard for people to come together.
听你的播客，人们似乎很难走到一起。
I was wondering if, in your line of work, if it makes you feel hopeful for most couples, and hopeful for the idea of people finding what they want with their partners?
我想知道，在你的工作中，这是否让你对大多数夫妻充满希望，并对人们与伴侣找到他们想要的东西充满希望？
You know, the thing that just popped in my head is I have days where I have faith in humanity and days when I don't.
你知道，我脑子里突然闪现的一件事是，我有时对人性有信心，有时则不相信。
I'll answer you from a different angle.
我从另一个角度来回答你。
I once wanted to write an article on couples that inspire.
我曾经想写一篇关于鼓舞人心的夫妻的文章。
And I asked about 60, 70 people, at the time, if they knew of couples that inspired them.
当时我问了大约 60 到 70 个人，他们是否知道有哪些情侣给了他们启发。
And the vast majority could sometimes come up with one.
绝大多数人有时都能想出一个。
Wow.
哇。
Esther Perel I never wrote the piece, but it's the answer to your question, right?
Esther Perel 我从来没有写过这篇文章，但这是你问题的答案，对吧？
It's that we can see some couples who are very good at this and some couples who are very good at that, but we don't have that many models where we just say, wow, this is who I want to be, how I want to be.
我们可以看到一些夫妇非常擅长这个，有些夫妇非常擅长那个，但我们没有那么多模型，我们只是说，哇，这就是我想成为的人，我想成为的人。
Esther Perel, her new podcast, the Audible original series, Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel, can be found at audible.com/esther.
Esther Perel，她的新播客，Audible 原创系列，我们应该从 Esther Perel 开始，可以在 audible.com/esther 找到。
Act 3, "Rosie's Paradox." So we end our show today with the story of one more person asking some very big questions.
第三幕，“罗西的悖论”。因此，我们今天以另一个人提出一些非常大的问题的故事来结束我们的节目。
Stephanie Foo explains.
斯蒂芬妮·福解释道。
About three years ago, my friend Matt's older daughter went through one of those hardcore phases where she got really into asking her dad a lot of questions.
大约三年前，我朋友马特的大女儿经历了一个核心阶段，她开始向她父亲问很多问题。
She was nine.
她九岁。
There's the why phase.
这是为什么阶段。
And then the why phase can turn into the why not and explain and that endless string of questions.
然后“为什么”阶段可以变成“为什么不”并解释以及一系列无休止的问题。
Like, why can't I have my own room?
比如，为什么我不能有自己的房间？
How do I get to school?
我怎样去学校？
Why can't we have a yard?
为什么我们不能有一个院子？
Can I have a cookie?
我可以吃一块饼干吗？
They're unrelenting.
他们是不屈不挠的。
So one night, Matt was working from home and Rosie was bugging him with her questions.
一天晚上，马特在家工作，罗西不断地向他提出问题。
And it was just one after the other after the other.
而且只是一个接着一个。
And I was like, look, you've got to get just give me a minute.
我当时想，听着，你必须给我一分钟。
I'm working right now.
我现在正在工作。
Just go off and write them all down.
把它们全部写下来。
Make me a list of the questions that you want me to answer, and I'll answer them for you.
给我列出您希望我回答的问题，我会为您解答。
I thought it was going to be like three or four questions and then a picture of a rabbit or something.
我以为这会是三四个问题，然后是兔子或其他东西的图片。
And I get this list and I look at it.
我拿到了这份清单并查看了它。
And these are the essential, unanswerable questions of life.
这些都是生命中基本的、无法回答的问题。
Read a few of these questions for me.
为我阅读其中几个问题。
Start at the very top.
从最顶层开始。
OK, so, what is life?
好吧，那么，什么是生命？
Why?
为什么？
Stephanie Foo That's the first question.
Stephanie Foo 这是第一个问题。
It's the first question.
这是第一个问题。
It's the first thing she wants to know.
这是她想知道的第一件事。
Where do we go when we die?
当我们死后我们会去哪里？
heaven?
天堂？
Explain.
解释。
Another planet?
另一个星球？
Is heaven another planet?
天堂是另一个星球吗？
Why is there heaven or hell?
为什么会有天堂或地狱？
Time?
时间？
Why?
为什么？
Explain.
解释。
Do we make worlds?
我们创造世界吗？
Do we become like God?
我们变得像神一样吗？
Why?
为什么？
Why do you do what you do?
你为什么要做你所做的事？
How do you know what's true?
你怎么知道什么是真的？
Who do you miss?
你想念谁？
Why?
为什么？
Explain.
解释。
Do you miss anyone more than them, and does that change and how?
你是否比他们更想念任何人？这种情况是否发生变化以及如何变化？
And if that changes, was it worth missing them in the first place?
如果情况发生变化，那么一开始就值得错过他们吗？
And my favorite is-- and this is pretty much just my jaw dropped, why any of this?
我最喜欢的是——这几乎让我惊掉了下巴，为什么会这样呢？
I mean, my first reaction to them is-- I mean, I'm proud of her.
我的意思是，我对他们的第一反应是——我的意思是，我为她感到骄傲。
And then I realize I actually have to answer these questions, right?
然后我意识到我实际上必须回答这些问题，对吧？
They're are about three pages, single-spaced, of handwritten questions, about 50 questions total.
它们大约有三页单倍行距的手写问题，总共大约 50 个问题。
But a promise was a promise, so Matt got to work.
但承诺就是承诺，所以马特开始工作。
He's a professor at West Point, teaches writing.
他是西点军校的教授，教授写作。
And so he took a professorial approach to it and started researching answers for her, looking up quotes on each topic, spending weeks, sometimes months, writing each answer.
因此，他采取了教授的方法，开始为她研究答案，查找每个主题的引文，花费数周甚至数月的时间写下每个答案。
What's the shortest and what's the longest you've ever spent?
你用过的最短时间和最长时间分别是多少？
And what's the hardest one?
而最难的是什么？
So I think the longest one is one that I haven't finished answering for her yet, which is, what is love?
所以我想最长的一篇我还没替她回答完，那就是爱情是什么？
What's been the easiest one to answer so far?
到目前为止最容易回答的问题是什么？
I got him to read me one of the answers he worked hardest on, the answer to, "Time.
我让他给我读了他最努力的答案之一，即“时间”的答案。
Why?
为什么？
Explain."
解释一下。”
Could you read it for me?
你能为我读一下吗？
Matt Salyer Sure.
马特·萨利尔 当然。
"So tell me what and tell me why, and the burden is on me to justify this to you.
“所以告诉我是什么，告诉我为什么，我有责任向你证明这一点。
Perhaps that's what time means in the end is a justification or a lack of being justified.
也许这就是时间最终意味着是正当的还是缺乏正当的。
And I don't really know what "justification" means.
我真的不知道“正当理由”是什么意思。
There was an old movie I saw when I was a kid in your grandmother's house with the--"
我小时候在你祖母家里看过一部老电影，里面有——”
He quotes Camus, then brings in the Millennium Falcon, then Saint Augustine, then Kierkegaard.
他引用了加缪的话，然后引入了千年隼，然后是圣奥古斯丁，然后是克尔凯郭尔。
Rosie was nine.
罗西九岁。
All his answers are like this.
他所有的回答都是这样的。
"Kierkegaard gets to this point after either/oring everything.
“克尔凯郭尔在对一切进行非此即彼之后到达了这一点。
He says, why did I not die as a baby?"
他说，为什么我没有在婴儿时期就死去？”
I'm a grown-up and I find it impossible to follow your answers.
我是一个成年人，我发现不可能遵循你的答案。
Honestly, I have not any idea what you're saying.
老实说，我不知道你在说什么。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I really don't understand half of what I just said either, right?
我是说，我刚才说的话我也确实有一半没听懂，对吧？
To be honest.
说实话。
What his answers do have going for them is sincerity.
他的回答对他们来说确实是真诚的。
The time one ends like this.
时间就这样结束了。
"And one of my favorite stories by a guy named William Faulkner.
“我最喜欢的故事之一是威廉·福克纳写的。
There was a daddy who gives his kid a watch and says, "I give you this watch, not that you might remember time, but so that you might forget it for a little while." I can only tell you that time is me turning and turning while the world is turning around a star that turns around a center that turns around the whole time.
有一位爸爸送给孩子一块手表，他说：“我给你这块手表，不是让你记住时间，而是让你暂时忘记它。”我只能告诉你，时间是我转啊转，而世界则绕着一颗恒星转，而这颗恒星又绕着一个中心转，而这个中心一直在转。
Among all the other things and the little turning animals and all the little turning worlds, there's me trying to turn to you."
在所有其他的事物以及转动的小动物和转动的小世界中，我试图转向你。”
OK.
好的。
And you just told her this answer like this?
你就这样告诉她这个答案？
I mean, she would pass in and out of being interested in it.
我的意思是，她会时不时地对此感兴趣。
And at the end of it, she was just like, oh, yeah.
最后，她只是说，哦，是的。
OK.
好的。
And I'm like, all right, well, I mean, do you see what I'm saying about time?
我想，好吧，我的意思是，你明白我所说的时间吗？
It's a measurement of change.
这是对变化的衡量。
It's an arbitrary human construct, but not, but it feels different.
这是一个任意的人类构造，但不是，但感觉不同。
It's this phenomenon.
就是这个现象。
She's like, yeah, yeah, OK.
她说，是啊，是啊，好吧。
I was like, oh.
我当时想，哦。
Well, this isn't really exactly what I wanted.
嗯，这并不完全是我想要的。
That's not what you wanted because you were like, oh, this is kind of boring?
这不是你想要的，因为你会想，哦，这有点无聊？
Yeah.
是的。
Stephanie Foo Rosie has a pixie cut and a cheeky grin.
斯蒂芬妮·福·罗西 (Stephanie Foo Rosie) 有着精灵般的发型和厚脸皮的笑容。
She gave her dad the 50 questions three years ago.
三年前，她向父亲提出了 50 个问题。
She's 12 now.
她现在12岁了。
He's been working on getting her answers, but he's only gone through 2/3 of them because it takes him so long to cobble together a response.
他一直在努力寻找她的答案，但他只完成了其中的 2/3，因为他花了很长时间才拼凑出答案。
What I found out talking to Rosie is she didn't even really care about the answers to these questions.
我与罗西交谈后发现，她甚至并不真正关心这些问题的答案。
Questions that I thought that would take him a long time to answer, because at the time I really just wanted to talk to him.
我认为他要花很长时间才能回答的问题，因为当时我真的只是想和他谈谈。
It all started when she first moved to New York City.
这一切都始于她第一次搬到纽约市时。
Before then, she'd been living with her mom and grandparents most of the week.
在那之前，她一周的大部分时间都和妈妈和祖父母住在一起。
But then her grandpa, who she was really close to, died, and she had to move in with her dad during the week instead.
但后来她非常亲近的爷爷去世了，她不得不在一周内搬去和父亲住在一起。
At the same time, she started at a new school, where the kids either ignored or bullied her, and she felt lost.
与此同时，她开始在一所新学校，孩子们要么忽视她，要么欺负她，她感到失落。
One day, she came home from school and decided she needed to do something about it.
有一天，她放学回家，决定为此做点什么。
I was lonely.
我很孤独。
And I felt a little sad that nobody had really stepped out to say, oh, hey.
我感到有点难过，因为没有人真正站出来说，哦，嘿。
It's gonna be OK.
会没事的。
I'll be your friend.
我会成为你的朋友。
So that's when I really, really needed somebody to talk to.
所以那时我真的非常需要有人倾诉。
So you didn't have anybody to talk to at school?
那么你在学校没有人可以说话吗？
No. That's really why I felt like, oh, this is my dad.
不，这就是为什么我觉得，哦，这是我爸爸。
He's a really important person.
他是一个非常重要的人。
I love him very much.
我非常爱他。
I really want to become closer with him.
我真的很想和他变得更亲近。
I wish there was something that I could do to make us closer.
我希望我能做点什么让我们更亲近。
Did you feel like your dad wasn't paying enough attention to you?
你有没有觉得爸爸对你不够重视？
Yeah, a little bit.
是的，有一点。
Or not a little bit.
或者不是一点点。
Yeah.
是的。
What was he doing instead?
他在做什么呢？
Rosie Salyer He was writing papers on his computer.
Rosie Salyer 他正在电脑上写论文。
And I knew at the time how important it was, but part of me still wished that-- like, put down all the screens.
当时我知道它有多重要，但我的一部分仍然希望——比如，放下所有的屏幕。
Put down everything else and just talk.
放下一切，只管说话。
So I wrote all the questions down, and they were big questions because I know my dad.
所以我写下了所有的问题，它们都是大问题，因为我了解我的父亲。
And if it's a little question, he'll elaborate on it, and he'll make it a big deal.
如果这是一个小问题，他会详细说明，然后他会把它变成一个大问题。
So if you times that by a big, complex question, that would be a huge talk.
因此，如果你将其与一个大而复杂的问题相结合，那将是一个巨大的演讲。
Is it true that you weren't talking to her much at the time?
你当时真的没怎么跟她说话吗？
No, I think I was talking to her all the time.
不，我想我一直在和她说话。
You know, I would tell it was time to get up and go to school.
你知道，我会告诉你是时候起床去学校了。
I would tell her that it was time to do her homework.
我会告诉她该做作业了。
I would tell her that she needed a new jacket.
我会告诉她她需要一件新夹克。
Yeah, I mean, I talked to you all the time.
是的，我是说，我一直在和你说话。
Maybe you're noticing the purely logistical nature of everything he mentioned?
也许您注意到他提到的一切纯粹是后勤性质？
It certainly didn't get past Rosie.
罗西当然没能逃过这一劫。
Yeah, but to me, it's not really the same thing.
是的，但对我来说，这并不是同一件事。
So a conversation and talking are completely different things.
所以谈话和说话是完全不同的事情。
Talking could be a range from, oh, hey, what's up?
谈话的范围可能是，哦，嘿，怎么了？
And conversation is you're deep in thought and you're looking, and you're making eye contact, and you're really enjoying the presence of somebody else.
谈话就是你陷入沉思，你在看，你在进行眼神交流，你真的很享受别人的存在。
Rosie's a smart kid, yeah, but this is the thing I really admire about her.
罗西是个聪明的孩子，是的，但这是我真正钦佩她的一点。
Matt was a single dad with two kids, going to school and trying to make the rent at the same time.
马特是一位有两个孩子的单亲爸爸，一边上学，一边努力挣房租。
Telling him to pay attention to her didn't cut it, so she figured out something else.
告诉他注意她并没有解决问题，所以她想出了别的办法。
I read this short story recently about a successful con man, whose motto was, "make them want to give you the thing you want to take." Rosie made her dad want to give her attention by making an opportunity to do what he loved-- ponder over life's big questions.
我最近读了一篇关于一个成功骗子的短篇故事，他的座右铭是“让他们想要给你你想要的东西”。罗西让她爸爸有机会做他喜欢做的事——思考人生的重大问题，从而引起她的注意。
My dad was kind of hardshelled, I guess.
我猜，我的父亲是个铁石心肠的人。
And so it took a lot.
所以这花了很多时间。
I had to keep asking these questions and keep wondering.
我不得不不断地问这些问题并不断地思考。
For me, it was just, I had to keep going and keep trying, and keep being this little bird that goes on your shoulder and is like, I am now your friend.
对我来说，这只是，我必须继续前进，继续尝试，继续成为这只小鸟，骑在你的肩膀上，就像，我现在是你的朋友。
Do you feel like it taught him how to talk to you better?
你觉得这教会了他如何更好地与你交谈吗？
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
Over the past three years, we've really worked on having actual conversations, than him just answering questions from me because we practice it.
在过去的三年里，我们真的致力于进行实际的对话，而不是他只是回答我的问题，因为我们练习了这一点。
Rosie never knew that her dad spent months and months writing down each answer.
罗西从来不知道她的父亲花了几个月的时间写下每个答案。
Matt only told her when I started working on this story.
马特只是在我开始研究这个故事时才告诉她的。
And she said she felt like, what?
她说她感觉，什么？
Are you kidding me?
你在开玩笑吧？
I had no idea that he was doing all these things, and it was just a big surprise for me.
我不知道他正在做所有这些事情，这对我来说只是一个很大的惊喜。
If I could, I would definitely just say, forget the questions.
如果可以的话，我肯定会说，忘掉这些问题。
I just wanna talk.
我只是想谈谈。
So you're like, well, you don't even have to go through all that trouble.
所以你会想，好吧，你甚至不必经历所有这些麻烦。
Yeah.
是的。
Stephanie Foo Rosie said this to her dad when she found out, and it really threw him for a loop.
斯蒂芬妮·福·罗西 (Stephanie Foo Rosie) 得知此事后向她父亲说了这件事，这让他大吃一惊。
Yeah, it was a complete waste of time.
是的，这完全是浪费时间。
I mean, what a complete waste of time to come up with these big, extensive projects that are definitely less important to them than just listening to them.
我的意思是，提出这些大而广泛的项目完全是浪费时间，而这些项目对他们来说绝对不如仅仅听他们说重要。
You know, what is time?
你知道，什么是时间？
Why?
为什么？
Explain.
解释。
Well, I can tell you what I don't want time to be.
好吧，我可以告诉你我不希望时间变成什么样子。
I don't want time to be something where I am just figuring out that I need to shut up and make some time to listen to this little kid before it's too late.
我不希望时间成为我只是想知道我需要闭嘴并花一些时间听这个小孩说话的事情，以免为时已晚。
Rosie really started asking the questions because she wanted to know that she wasn't alone and that everything was going to be OK.
罗西真的开始问这些问题，因为她想知道她并不孤单，一切都会好起来的。
Now she enjoys hearing the answers because they remind her that that's true.
现在她很高兴听到答案，因为它们提醒她这是真的。
That's why one of her favorite answers is the ending of, Time?
这就是为什么她最喜欢的答案之一是《时间？》的结局。
Why?
为什么？
Explain.
解释。
The part about all of the planets turning around themselves, and in the middle of it, Matt turning towards Rosie.
关于所有行星都围绕自己旋转的部分，在中间，马特转向罗西。
One of the main meanings of that is, even though everything is happening around you, he just wants to know about me a little more, I guess.
其中一个主要含义是，即使一切都发生在你周围，我想他只是想多了解我一点。
And a thing that I really like about that is because he just uses these sentences that make me happy when I read them.
我真正喜欢的一点是，他使用的这些句子让我读起来很开心。
You know, it's kinda funny, when he read this to me he sort of choked up a little bit.
你知道，这有点有趣，当他读给我听时，他有点哽咽。
Yeah.
是的。
He likes to be a one expression person.
他喜欢做一个表情单一的人。
But when he reads stuff like this he gets all emotional.
但当他读到这样的东西时，他会变得非常情绪化。
In the car ride here he was like, oh, I love you so much.
在开车来这里的路上，他说，哦，我非常爱你。
And he was tearing up looking out the window, so--
他看着窗外流着泪，所以——
Yeah.
是的。
Pretty great.
非常棒。
Stephanie Foo So people have been asking these big important questions like, why are we here, what is life, for forever.
Stephanie Foo 所以人们一直在问这些重大的重要问题，比如，我们为什么在这里，生命是什么，永远。
And do you think that the real big reason why we ask it is to have a reason to talk to each other?
您认为我们提出这个问题的真正重要原因是为了有一个互相交谈的理由吗？
No, I think that philosophers actually really do wonder about these things.
不，我认为哲学家确实对这些事情感到好奇。
And they don't use it so that they could talk to their dads more.
他们不会使用它来与父亲进行更多交谈。
They use it because they really wonder about these things and they want to know everything.
他们使用它是因为他们真的想知道这些事情并且他们想知道一切。
But for my personal use, yes.
但对于我个人使用来说，是的。
That's exactly it.
就是这样。
Matt does still want to keep answering Rosie's questions for her.
马特仍然想继续回答罗西的问题。
But as for the hardest question, what is love, I don't think Rosie needs her dad to explain that to her anymore.
但至于最难的问题，什么是爱，我认为罗西不再需要她爸爸向她解释了。
She gets it.
她明白了。
Stephanie Foo is one of the producers of our program.
Stephanie Foo 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Our program was produced today by Robyn Semien.
今天我们的节目由罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 制作。
Our staff includes Elise Bergerson, Susan Burton, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Karen Duffin, Stephanie Foo, Kimberly Henderson, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
我们的员工包括 Elise Bergerson、Susan Burton、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Karen Duffin、Stephanie Foo、Kimberly Henderson、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie Whitaker 和 Diane Wu。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
You can help SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, sort through its data, looking for extraterrestrials terrestrials, with your own computer with software that runs in the background on your computer.
您可以使用您自己的计算机以及在计算机后台运行的软件来帮助 SETI（搜寻外星智慧生物）整理其数据，寻找外星人。
To get that software, just google SETI@home.
要获取该软件，只需 google SETI@home 即可。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Back when we first started the radio show, he told me I could have full editorial control.
当我们第一次开始广播节目时，他告诉我我可以拥有完全的编辑控制权。
He would never tell me what to say.
他永远不会告诉我该说什么。
You can use the words you want.
您可以使用您想要的词语。
You can use your body.
你可以使用你的身体。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。