616: I Am Not A Pirate - This American Life

616：我不是海贼

616 · This American Life · 原文

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #616 | March 22, 2019 616: I Am Not A Pirate Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录分享此美国生活生活伙伴如何收听剧集推荐关于概述员工公告奖学金工作音乐在路上制作电台常见问题解答提交商品联系我们我们的其他节目商品关注我们生活伙伴订阅我们的时事通讯整集切换音频和文字记录同步文字记录 | 内容第 616 集 | 2019 年 3 月 22 日 616：我不是海盗注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass When I was a kid, I was 100% about astronauts, spaceships, sci-fi, and I was 0% pirates.

序言 Ira Glass 当我还是个孩子的时候，我 100% 喜欢宇航员、宇宙飞船、科幻小说，而我 0% 喜欢海盗。

The fact that pirates were badasses, that they didn't obey rules, that they were rebels, that did not speak to the little nerd boy that I was.

海盗是坏蛋，他们不遵守规则，他们是叛逆者，这一事实与我这个书呆子小男孩的想法不符。

But one of our producers, Elna Baker, she was into pirates.

但我们的制片人之一埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 非常喜欢海盗。

She liked how scary they were.

她喜欢它们的可怕之处。

And she told me this amazing story that has been her favorite since she first heard it.

她给我讲了这个令人惊奇的故事，自从她第一次听到这个故事以来，这个故事一直是她最喜欢的。

It's a true story about a man named Stede Bonnet.

这是一个关于一个名叫施泰德·博内特的人的真实故事。

Who is known as the Gentleman Pirate.

被称为绅士海贼的人。

And basically, it takes place in the early 1700s.

基本上，它发生在 1700 年代初期。

He was from Barbados, so he grew up on a plantation, a sugar plantation, to one of the wealthiest families in Barbados.

他来自巴巴多斯，所以他在一个种植园长大，一个甘蔗种植园，是巴巴多斯最富有的家庭之一。

He had 94 slaves.

他有94个奴隶。

He was married, had three kids.

他已婚，育有三个孩子。

And he traveled in high society, which is unusual for a pirate.

他还游历了上流社会，这对于海盗来说是不寻常的。

Yeah.

是的。

The vast majority of people who turned to piracy did so out of desperation, and this man didn't.

绝大多数转向盗版的人都是出于绝望，而这个人却没有。

So who's this?

那么这是谁？

Elna Baker I've told this story so many times to so many people that I just wanted to make sure I was getting the facts right, so I decided to talk to a pirate historian.

埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）我已经向很多人讲过这个故事很多次了，我只是想确保我所掌握的事实是正确的，所以我决定与一位海盗历史学家交谈。

That's Mark Hanna.

那是马克·汉纳。

He's also a professor at UC San Diego.

他也是加州大学圣地亚哥分校的教授。

The vast majority of pirates start their lives by mutinying, or they gather a crew together and they steal a ship from someone.

绝大多数海盗都是通过叛变开始他们的生活的，或者他们聚集了一群船员，从某人那里偷了一艘船。

He actually had a ship built.

他实际上建造了一艘船。

Thought, I will go down to the local shipyard.

我想，我要去当地的造船厂。

I'll have my ship built according to specifications that I think are best.

我将按照我认为最好的规格建造我的船。

And then he hired a crew and he paid them wages, like regular normal-people wages, which was a big no-no.

然后他雇佣了一批船员，并向他们支付工资，就像普通人的正常工资一样，这是一个很大的禁忌。

The vast majority of pirates, if you don't capture a ship, you don't make any money.

绝大多数海盗，如果不夺取船只，就赚不到钱。

You want your crew to be invested in the outcome of attacking a ship.

您希望您的船员投入到攻击船只的结果中。

So if you know, hey, I'm doing OK.

所以如果你知道的话，嘿，我做得很好。

I know I'll be paid this week, you're going to be a little less aggressive about capturing a ship.

我知道我这周就会收到报酬，你在捕获一艘船时会稍微不那么激进。

And so I think Bonnet, right off the bat, didn't understand the economic model that is the basis of most pirate attacks.

因此，我认为博内特一开始并不了解作为大多数海盗攻击基础的经济模式。

Then why did he want to be a pirate?

那他为什么想当海贼呢？

What kind of midlife crisis is just like, I'm a wealthy landowner with a wife and three kids, and I'm going to just go marauding on the seven seas?

什么样的中年危机就像，我是一个富有的地主，有一个妻子和三个孩子，我要去七大洋进行掠夺？

Well, it's explained in a book from 1724 this way.

嗯，1724 年的一本书中是这样解释的。

Captain Charles Johnson wrote, quote, "this humor of going a-pirating proceeded from a disorder in his mind which is said to have been occasioned by some discomforts he found in a married state."

查尔斯·约翰逊船长写道，“这种去海盗的幽默源于他的思想混乱，据说是由他在已婚状态下发现的一些不适引起的。”

Wait.

等待。

What is he saying?

他在说什么？

Elna Baker He says-- and other books say the same thing-- that what led him to piracy was that he had a nagging wife.

埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）他说——其他书也这么说——导致他走上盗版之路的是他有一个爱唠叨的妻子。

They're blaming the wife?

他们责怪妻子吗？

Elna Baker They blame the nagging wife.

埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）他们把责任归咎于爱唠叨的妻子。

So Bonnet has this ship built and he calls it The Revenge.

所以邦尼特建造了这艘船，他称之为复仇号。

And he makes sure that it has a cabin with a well-stocked library.

他还确保小屋里有一个藏书丰富的图书馆。

Which doesn't seem that weird, if you're going to be on a boat for months at a time, that you have a lot of books.

如果你一次要在船上呆上几个月，那么你有很多书，这似乎并不奇怪。

I think he had absolutely no idea what he was getting into.

我认为他完全不知道自己正在陷入什么境地。

I think he might have heard stories in the local taverns about the excitement of life at sea.

我想他可能在当地的小酒馆里听说过关于海上生活的精彩故事。

Perhaps he heard stories that you could go to other islands and maybe meet other women.

也许他听说过一些故事，说你可以去其他岛屿，也许会遇到其他女人。

But clearly, he had no idea what he was getting into.

但显然，他不知道自己正在陷入什么境地。

And it seems like the reality set in very soon after he had started off on his voyage.

似乎在他开始航行后不久，现实就出现了。

And this is what I love about this story is that, instead of just dreaming of this alternate life where he's a bad guy, he goes for it.

这就是我喜欢这个故事的原因，因为他不只是梦想自己是一个坏人的另一种生活，而是为之奋斗。

And he's the worst pirate.

他是最坏的海盗。

Like, he does everything wrong.

就像，他做的一切都是错的。

Like, for instance, the captain of the pirate ship is supposed to be the most experienced sailor.

例如，海盗船的船长应该是最有经验的水手。

Yeah?

是的？

Elna Baker And Bonnet has no experience sailing.

Elna Baker 和 Bonnet 没有航海经验。

So it looks like, when he was about to attack a ship, he would have to look around and ask advice, which is not something you want to be seen doing as a captain.

所以看起来，当他要攻击一艘船时，他必须环顾四周并寻求建议，这不是你希望被看到作为船长所做的事情。

You want to be seen as decisive, fast, aggressive.

你希望被视为果断、快速、积极进取。

But they have a few successes.

但他们取得了一些成功。

They take a few ships.

他们带了几艘船。

He even gets a reputation.

他甚至获得了声誉。

This is when they start calling him the Gentleman Pirate.

从那时起，他们开始称他为“绅士海盗”。

Does he kill people?

他会杀人吗？

Elna Baker No, actually.

埃尔娜·贝克不，实际上。

He's kind of a nice pirate.

他是一个不错的海盗。

He captures people.

他捕捉人。

He takes their goods.

他拿走了他们的货物。

And then he lets them go.

然后他让他们走了。

But then he attacks a big ship, a Spanish man-of-war, and over 30 of his men are killed or wounded.

但随后他袭击了一艘大船，一艘西班牙战舰，导致 30 多名手下死伤。

And it's a huge disaster.

这是一场巨大的灾难。

Bonnet is gravely injured.

邦内特受重伤。

And they have to escape and flee to the Bahamas.

他们必须逃离并逃往巴哈马。

And there he met one of the most iconic pirates in world history, Edward Thatch, who's better known as Blackbeard.

在那里，他遇到了世界历史上最具标志性的海盗之一爱德华·萨奇（Edward Thatch），他更广为人知的名字是黑胡子。

Yeah.

是的。

This is where the story takes a remarkable turn.

这就是故事发生显着转折的地方。

So basically, here's this guy who has idolized pirates, and who does he happened upon but basically the most famous pirate in the world.

基本上，这就是这个崇拜海盗的人，他碰巧遇到了谁，但基本上是世界上最著名的海盗。

Who is, in fact, Bonnet's polar opposite.

事实上，博内特是截然相反的人。

He's a successful sailor.

他是一位成功的水手。

He is aggressive.

他很有攻击性。

He's decisive.

他很果断。

He's cruel.

他很残忍。

He's sadistic.

他是个虐待狂。

But he's also charismatic and bold, as opposed to Bonnet, who's indecisive, nervous.

但他也很有魅力、大胆，与优柔寡断、紧张的博内特相反。

And Blackbeard was this consummate performer.

黑胡子是一位完美的表演者。

He was incredibly violent.

他非常暴力。

He was unpredictable.

他难以预测。

There's a reason he's one of the most famous pirates.

他成为最著名的海盗之一是有原因的。

Even pirates were like, whoa, this guy is out of control.

就连海盗也会说，哇，这家伙失控了。

When he would first appear on your ship, he would have prepared for that moment by tying these pieces of twine called slow matches into his long, big beard, and he would light them on fire just as he appeared so that there was this cloud of smoke.

当他第一次出现在你们的船上时，他会在他又长又大的胡须上绑上这些被称为慢火柴的麻线，然后在他出现时点燃它们，这样就会有这团烟雾。

And in the smoke, you would just see the eyes of Blackbeard.

在烟雾中，你只能看到黑胡子的眼睛。

So he looked like he was appearing out of hell.

所以他看起来就像是从地狱里走出来一样。

I don't understand that at all.

我根本不明白这一点。

It just seems like the fire would catch fire to his beard.

看来火会烧着他的胡子。

He had a method, I'm sure.

我确信他有办法。

And this was actually a strategy.

这实际上是一种策略。

Their whole thing was to inspire as much terror as possible because, if they made you incredibly afraid, you would give up the ship without a fight.

他们的全部目的就是激发尽可能多的恐惧，因为如果他们让你极度恐惧，你就会不战而屈人之兵。

Oh, this never occurred to me until this second.

哦，直到这一刻我才想到这一点。

So the skull and crossbones and all that, it's all like a brand to make people scared.

所以骷髅和交叉骨之类的，就像是一个让人害怕的品牌。

Yeah.

是的。

Their brand was death.

他们的品牌就是死亡。

They arrive with a skull and crossbones.

他们带着骷髅到达。

If you think death is coming for you, you're going to surrender.

如果你认为死亡即将来临，你就会投降。

But in fact, some pirates, like Blackbeard, they didn't even kill many people.

但事实上，有些海盗，比如黑胡子，他们甚至没有杀掉多少人。

In fact, there's no evidence Blackbird ever killed anyone till the very end.

事实上，直到最后都没有证据表明黑鸟曾经杀死过任何人。

So it was very theatrical.

所以这是非常戏剧化的。

They're putting on a show, and they understood that.

他们正在表演，他们明白这一点。

And I like imagining these pirates scheming and plotting it out, being like, OK, no, here, I have a really good idea.

我喜欢想象这些海盗正在策划并密谋，就像，好吧，不，在这里，我有一个非常好的主意。

This is so scary.

这太可怕了。

So now basically, the most skilled pirate meets the least skilled.

所以现在基本上，最熟练的海盗遇到了最不熟练的海盗。

And Blackbeard treats Bonnet in a very friendly manner, which is uncharacteristic of Blackbeard.

而且黑胡子对待邦尼特的态度非常友好，这并不是黑胡子的特点。

Bonnet is gravely injured.

邦内特受重伤。

Blackbeard comes on board and says, I'll captain your ship.

黑胡子上船并说，我来担任你的船长。

And he lets Bonnet hang out and heal in the captain's quarters while he captains the ship.

当他担任船长时，他让邦尼特在船长舱里闲逛并疗伤。

So do we know what Blackbeard gets out of this?

那么我们知道黑胡子能从中得到什么吗？

We don't know.

我们不知道。

But Bonnet's a novelty.

但邦内特是个新奇事物。

Blackbeard wouldn't have gotten a chance to ever hang out with an aristocrat.

黑胡子不可能有机会和贵族一起出去玩。

They end up being together for almost a year.

他们最终在一起了将近一年。

Wow.

哇。

Elna Baker And at some point, Blackbeard gives Bonnet his ship back.

艾尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）在某个时刻，黑胡子将他的船还给了邦尼特。

And when Bonnet finally goes out on his own again, he fails at pirating so badly his crew begs Blackbeard.

当邦尼特最终再次独自外出时，他的海盗行为严重失败，他的船员们向黑胡子求助。

They're like, we cannot work for this guy.

他们说，我们不能为这个人工作。

He is a terrible pirate.

他是一个可怕的海盗。

Please take over this ship.

请接管这艘船。

And so Blackbeard intervenes and he puts his second-in-command in charge of Bonnet's ship and he invites Bonnet over just to stay on his ship for a while.

于是黑胡子介入，他让他的副手负责邦尼特的船，并邀请邦尼特过来，只是在他的船上停留一段时间。

Then he tells him, you know, you're just not cut out for this lifestyle.

然后他告诉他，你知道，你不适合这种生活方式。

Just sail with me.

就跟我一起航行吧。

So again, it's this ruse of like, hang out with me.

再说一次，这就是这个诡计，和我一起出去玩。

Put your feet up.

把脚抬起来。

Relax.

放松。

This was a transformative moment for Bonnet.

对于博内特来说，这是一个变革性的时刻。

I think this was a moment when he realized he made a huge mistake.

我认为这是他意识到自己犯了一个巨大错误的时刻。

In fact, Captain Charles Johnson recalled that he, at this moment, saw his folly and, quote, "he reflected upon his past course of life and was confounded with shame when he thought upon what he had done." So he clearly fell into a deep, deep depression.

事实上，查尔斯·约翰逊上尉回忆说，此时此刻，他看到了自己的愚蠢行为，并引用他的话说，“他反思了自己过去的生活轨迹，当他想到自己所做的事情时，他感到羞愧难当。”所以他显然陷入了深深的沮丧之中。

Because he was like, oh, I had a midlife crisis and I left my wife and three kids, and now I'm a pirate.

因为他说，哦，我遇到了中年危机，我离开了我的妻子和三个孩子，现在我是一名海盗。

And I'm horrible at it.

我对此很害怕。

Yes, that's exactly right.

是的，完全正确。

In fact, he tells the rest of the pirates that he actually really regrets actually becoming a pirate.

事实上，他告诉其他海盗，他真的很后悔成为一名海盗。

And the rest of the pirates are embarrassed just to look at him.

而其余的海贼们光是看他一眼都感到尴尬。

Yeah.

是的。

And in fact, one of the historical accounts said that, when he ventured out on deck, he wore an elegant morning gown and usually carried the book he was reading in his hands, and then he would sort of sulk with despair.

事实上，一份历史记载说，当他冒险登上甲板时，他穿着一件优雅的晨礼服，手里通常拿着他正在读的书，然后他会因绝望而生闷气。

So he has all this regret about being a pirate.

所以他对成为一名海盗感到非常遗憾。

And then something incredible happens, which is that the king issues this decree that there is a pardon available for pirates and you can return to your life without any criminal charges.

然后令人难以置信的事情发生了，国王颁布了一项法令，赦免海盗，让你可以在没有任何刑事指控的情况下回归正常生活。

So when they get to port, he takes the pardon.

所以当他们到达港口时，他接受了赦免。

And Bonnet's plan is to become a privateer.

而邦尼特的计划是成为一名私掠者。

What's that?

那是什么？

Elna Baker It's like a mercenary navy that works for the king.

埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）就像一支为国王效力的雇佣军。

OK.

好的。

Elna Baker But when he gets back to his ship, Blackbeard has betrayed him.

艾尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 但当他回到自己的船上时，黑胡子却背叛了他。

He's plundered his ship and he's taken his men and marooned them on a deserted island, and he leaves them for dead.

他洗劫了他的船只，带走了他的部下，将他们困在一座荒岛上，然后让他们自生自灭。

Bonnet saves them.

邦尼特救了他们。

He is really furious at Blackbeard and, in fact, decides he wants to go after and capture Blackbeard himself, which is, as you can imagine, an astounding misperception of his own skill sets.

他对黑胡子非常愤怒，事实上，他决定追捕并捕获黑胡子本人，正如你可以想象的那样，这是对他自己技能的惊人误解。

Here's this guy who had minor success.

这是一个取得了小小的成功的人。

His crew never respected him.

他的船员从来不尊重他。

Goes after probably one of the most successful pirates in world history, who is much more aggressive, and thinks that somehow he's going to enact revenge and he's finally living up to the name of his ship for the first time.

追捕可能是世界历史上最成功的海盗之一，他更具侵略性，并认为他会以某种方式实施复仇，他终于第一次名副其实。

So he's back in the game.

所以他又回到了比赛中。

Elna Baker Yeah.

埃尔娜·贝克是的。

He never actually catches Blackbeard.

他从未真正抓住黑胡子。

But while he's chasing him, he finally becomes a real pirate.

但当他追赶他时，他终于成为了一名真正的海盗。

He takes 13 ships.

他拥有13艘船。

He got violent.

他变得暴力。

He flogged his own men.

他鞭打自己的人。

He threatened to burn down a whole town and to shoot his own crew if they surrendered.

他威胁说，如果他自己的船员投降，他就会烧毁整个城镇，并开枪射击他们。

And in the final battle, where he was captured, he and his men kill 18 people.

在最后的战斗中，他被俘，他和他的部下杀死了 18 个人。

So you could say that he had some, I guess, personal growth.

所以我想你可以说他有一些个人成长。

Learned specific lessons from Blackbeard.

从黑胡子身上学到了具体的教训。

Learned that, if you're going to do this, you have to put on the show and you've got to actually appear to be someone who it is worth surrendering to.

我了解到，如果你要这样做，你就必须表现得很好，而且你必须真正表现得是一个值得臣服的人。

Yeah, so Bonnet eventually has matured into a murderous pirate.

是的，邦尼特最终成长为一个凶残的海盗。

Wait.

等待。

So he had a romantic idea of what it was like to be somebody who murders people and takes their stuff, and then he actually ends up actually murdering people and taking their stuff?

所以他有一个浪漫的想法，想成为一个杀人犯并拿走他们的东西的人，然后他实际上最终真的杀人了，拿走了他们的东西？

Yeah.

是的。

He becomes a bad guy.

他变成了一个坏人。

And they catch him.

他们抓住了他。

And they put him on trial.

他们对他进行了审判。

So he finally got his wish.

于是他终于如愿以偿了。

The world finally thought he was a pirate.

世人终于认为他是海盗。

Like, mission accomplished.

就像，任务完成了。

Yeah.

是的。

And now he can be hanged at 30.

现在他30岁就可以被绞死。

And there's actually a transcript of his trial.

实际上有他的审判记录。

So did he admit being a pirate?

那么他承认自己是海盗了吗？

Was he proud?

他感到骄傲吗？

No. He pled not guilty.

不，他不认罪。

He said his crew held him on board against his will and that he wasn't doing any of the piracy.

他说，他的船员违背他的意愿将他留在船上，而且他并没有参与任何海盗活动。

And apparently, this kind of defense is typical.

显然，这种防御是典型的。

Mark Hanna told me pirates usually deny that they're pirates, or they rationalize it, like there's some good reason that they did this.

马克·汉纳告诉我，海盗通常否认自己是海盗，或者他们将其合理化，就像他们这样做有一些充分的理由一样。

They were poor sailors or they were badly treated, and it was only fair to start stealing from these big trading companies' ships.

他们要么是可怜的水手，要么受到虐待，从这些大型贸易公司的船上偷窃才是公平的。

So did the defense work?

那么防御起到作用了吗？

Did he get off?

他下车了吗？

No. He went to the gallows in Charleston, South Carolina.

不，他上了南卡罗来纳州查尔斯顿的绞刑架。

There's actually a marker in a park there.

那里的公园里实际上有一个标记。

So the guy goes and hangs out with pirates.

于是这个家伙就去和海盗们一起出去玩。

And even though he does not seem to have the smallest aptitude for pirating, he still ends up becoming a pirate.

尽管他看起来没有丝毫的海盗天赋，但他最终还是成为了一名海盗。

Today on our program we hear the story of another guy-- a guy who's alive right now, a guy today-- who gets near to pirates.

今天在我们的节目中，我们听到了另一个人的故事——一个现在还活着的人，一个今天的人——他接近海盗。

Did it change him?

这改变了他吗？

We try to figure that out.

我们试图弄清楚这一点。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Arrr you going to stay with us?

你要和我们住在一起吗？

No, we're not using that!

不，我们不使用它！

You may remember hearing about Rachel and Paul Chandler a few years back.

您可能还记得几年前听说过瑞秋和保罗·钱德勒。

They're a British couple who were spending their retirement sailing around the world.

他们是一对英国夫妇，退休后在世界各地航行度过。

But in October, 2009, in the middle of the night, a band of Somali pirates boarded their boat with guns and kidnapped them for ransom.

但2009年10月半夜，一伙索马里海盗持枪登上他们的船并绑架他们勒索赎金。

They were held for months in the Somali bush, where they were threatened and fed a steady diet of goat liver.

他们被关押在索马里丛林中数月，在那里他们受到威胁，并持续以羊肝为食。

Back in England, Rachel's brother, a guy named Stephen Collett was negotiating with the pirates.

回到英格兰，雷切尔的兄弟，一个名叫斯蒂芬·科利特的人正在与海盗谈判。

He spent eight months trying to work out a deal mostly with a pirate called Ali.

他花了八个月的时间试图与一个名叫阿里的海盗达成一项协议。

They finally came to an agreement.

他们最终达成协议。

$440,000 for Rachel and Paul's freedom.

440,000 美元让瑞秋和保罗重获自由。

A contract was written up and signed and faxed to Ali's office in Somalia.

一份合同已经写好并签署并传真到阿里在索马里的办公室。

Some pirates have offices and fax machines.

有些海盗有办公室和传真机。

And then the day before Rachel and Paul were scheduled to be released, the pirates let Stephen talk directly to Paul.

然后在雷切尔和保罗计划被释放的前一天，海盗们让斯蒂芬直接与保罗交谈。

We have made arrangements, Paul, to deliver the money to the pirates by plane to a town called Adado tomorrow at 11 o'clock.

保罗，我们已经安排好了，明天 11 点乘飞机把钱送到一个叫阿达多的小镇，交给海盗。

Yeah?

是的？

11 o'clock?

11点？

Stephen Collett Yes.

史蒂芬·科利特是的。

Yes.

是的。

Now, if the plane cannot land again to collect you, then you will stay with a Mr. Mohamed Aden tomorrow night in Adado.

现在，如果飞机无法再次降落来接您，那么明天晚上您将在阿达多与穆罕默德·亚丁先生住在一起。

Mohamed Aden?

穆罕默德·亚丁？

Stephen Collett Yes.

史蒂芬·科利特是的。

In Adado.

在阿达多.

Now, Mohamed Aden is the district governor who lives in Adado, and he's not a pirate.

现在，穆罕默德·亚丁是住在阿达多的地区长官，他不是海盗。

I repeat, he is not a pirate.

我再说一遍，他不是海盗。

OK.

好的。

Yes.

是的。

That's good.

那挺好的。

Stephen Collett He is working on our side.

史蒂芬·科利特他在我们这边工作。

He is a good man and you can trust him.

他是个好人，你可以信任他。

Mohamed Aden, the guy Stephen mentions, who's the governor of a region in Somalia where Rachel and Paul were held, he's actually American.

斯蒂芬提到的穆罕默德·亚丁是索马里一个地区的州长，雷切尔和保罗就被关押在那里，他实际上是美国人。

Somali-American.

索马里裔美国人。

He was born in Mogadishu but spent half his life in Minneapolis.

他出生在摩加迪沙，但在明尼阿波利斯度过了大半生。

Most people call him by his nickname, Tiiceey.

大多数人都用他的昵称“Tiiceey”来称呼他。

And when Stephen says--

当斯蒂芬说——

He is not a pirate.

他不是海盗。

I repeat, he is not a pirate.

我再说一遍，他不是海盗。

That's actually the question of this story.

这实际上就是这个故事的问题。

Tiiceey took a public stand against piracy, worked to end piracy in his area.

Tiiceey 公开反对盗版，致力于结束他所在地区的盗版行为。

But right now, he's locked up in a Belgian prison.

但现在，他被关在比利时的一所监狱里。

He was arrested for piracy and for criminal organization.

他因海盗和犯罪组织罪被捕。

He denies the charges.

他否认这些指控。

Though, of course, as you just heard, denying you're a pirate is an old tradition in pirating.

当然，正如您刚才所听到的，否认自己是海盗是海盗界的一个古老传统。

So is he innocent?

那么他是无辜的吗？

Is he a pirate?

他是海盗吗？

Is he colluding with pirates?

他是否与海盗勾结？

And if he is, how does a guy who comes all the way from America with the best of intentions, hoping to do the right things, end up in this situation?

如果是的话，那么一个怀着最美好的愿望从美国远道而来，希望做正确的事情的人怎么会落得这样的境地呢？

One of our producers, Dana Chivvis, looked into it.

我们的一位制片人 Dana Chivvis 对此进行了调查。

Tiiceey used to be just another boring dad in Minnesota.

蒂西曾经只是明尼苏达州另一个无聊的爸爸。

In 2008, he was finishing a master's degree in public administration at Minnesota State and starting a small health services company.

2008 年，他在明尼苏达州立大学完成公共管理硕士学位，并创办了一家小型医疗服务公司。

He lived in a three-bedroom condo in the suburbs of Minneapolis with his wife, Shamso, and their five sons.

他和妻子沙姆索以及五个儿子住在明尼阿波利斯郊区的一套三居室公寓里。

He was a regular Walmart-shopping, football-loving, homework-checking father.

他是一位经常去沃尔玛购物、热爱足球、检查家庭作业的父亲。

He was also active in the Somali community in Minneapolis, and he did the thing that do-gooder ex-pats do.

他还活跃于明尼阿波利斯的索马里社区，他做了一些外籍行善者所做的事情。

He raised money from other members of his clan to send back home.

他从家族其他成员那里筹集资金寄回家。

He tried to improve things back in Somalia.

他试图改善索马里的情况。

Clans run Somalia.

部族统治着索马里。

There's no powerful central government there.

那里没有强大的中央政府。

And Tiiceey's clan is made up of hundreds of thousands of people.

而Tiiceey的氏族则有数十万人。

In 2008, the clan was trying to restore order to the part of the country they're from, a region called Himan and Heeb, a 5,000-square-mile patch of sand that hadn't had a functioning government since the early '90s.

2008 年，这个部落试图恢复他们所在国家的一个名为希曼和希布 (Himan and Heeb) 的地区的秩序，这是一片面积 5,000 平方英里的沙地，自 90 年代初以来就没有一个正常运转的政府。

A place with no running water, rife with bandits and warlords, where camel herders wandered the desert and pirates plundered the seas.

这里没有自来水，强盗军阀横行，骆驼牧民在沙漠中游荡，海盗在海上掠夺。

Where you couldn't drive from one town to another because the warring tribes wouldn't allow it.

在那里你不能开车从一个城镇到另一个城镇，因为交战部落不允许。

So members of the clan from all over the world gathered in Dubai to come up with a plan to create a government there.

因此，来自世界各地的氏族成员聚集在迪拜，制定了在那里建立政府的计划。

Tiiceey went to that conference.

蒂西参加了那个会议。

He says he was actually picked to run the meeting.

他说他实际上被选来主持这次会议。

And he did such a good job, the clan elders drafted him to be part of a small team that would actually move to Himan and Heeb for three months, write a constitution, and get a government started.

他做得非常好，部落长老们把他选为一个小团队的一员，这个小团队实际上会搬到希曼和希布三个月，起草宪法，并启动政府。

He's the guy who has trouble saying no, so he flew to Africa directly from the conference.

他是那种很难拒绝的人，所以他从会议结束后直接飞往非洲。

So wait.

所以等等。

They didn't let you go back?

他们不让你回去？

You couldn't go back to Minneapolis?

你不能回明尼阿波利斯吗？

Unfortunately, no. Dana Chivvis --straight to Somalia.

不幸的是，没有。达纳·奇夫维斯——直接前往索马里。

Because they were afraid if we go back home we would never come back.

因为他们担心如果我们回家就再也回不来了。

Oh, my god.

我的天啊。

Mohamed Aden Yes.

穆罕默德·亚丁是的。

So in a way, it was a setup.

所以在某种程度上，这是一个设置。

Yeah, it was a setup.

是的，这是一个设置。

You were conscripted.

你被征召入伍了。

Yes.

是的。

Dana Chivvis At the end of those three months, he'd done such a good job that the local elders asked him to stay and run the place for a few years.

达纳·奇夫维斯（Dana Chivvis）在那三个月结束时，他做得非常好，当地的长老们请他留下来经营这个地方几年。

He didn't want to do it, lobbied against it for a week.

他不想这么做，游说了一个星期才反对。

But his friends finally sat him down and said, you have no choice.

但他的朋友们最终让他坐下来并说，你别无选择。

If any of us had been asked, we'd do it.

如果我们中有人被要求，我们就会这么做。

So he agreed.

于是他同意了。

The day they appointed me, that was my scariest day in my entire life.

他们任命我的那天，是我一生中最可怕的一天。

He's saying it was the scariest day in his entire life.

他说这是他一生中最可怕的一天。

That's Tiiceey talking to me in January.

这是 Tiiceey 一月份对我说的。

He's calling me from the prison in Belgium, so it's a little hard to hear.

他从比利时的监狱给我打电话，所以有点难以听清。

Do you remember calling Shamso and telling her this news?

你还记得给Shamso打电话并告诉她这个消息吗？

[LAUGHING] Actually, what I did is-- I could not face-- to be honest with you, she's what's called the boss.

[笑] 事实上，我所做的是——我无法面对——老实说，她就是所谓的老板。

She's the one who wears the pants in the house.

她是家里唯一穿裤子的人。

He says it was hard to bring himself to tell his wife, so he asked his friends to call her, figuring she couldn't say no to them.

他说很难让自己告诉妻子，所以他让朋友给她打电话，认为她无法拒绝他们。

I was a coward.

我是个胆小鬼。

I didn't have the balls.

我没有球。

At first, he told his wife, Shamso, he'd only be gone a few months.

起初，他告诉妻子沙姆索，他只会离开几个月。

But now he had to explain to her-- well, his friends did, actually-- that he was going to stay in Somalia for a few years, leaving her with five boys to manage back in Minneapolis while he lived in a lawless country they'd both fled years ago.

但现在他必须向她解释——事实上，他的朋友们也这么做了——他要在索马里待几年，让她带着五个男孩回到明尼阿波利斯照顾，而他则生活在一个他们几年前逃离的无法无天的国家。

When I asked him what his goals were in Somalia, he said he didn't want to die.

当我问他在索马里的目标是什么时，他说他不想死。

First of all, my dream was not to die here.

首先，我的梦想不是死在这里。

Not to die there.

不至于死在那里。

But work wise, my dream was to make the situation the best I can.

但在工作方面，我的梦想是尽我所能使情况变得最好。

To make safe, to build a good buildings, you know, roads, like a lot of people working and there's a lot of income.

为了保证安全，建造良好的建筑物，你知道，道路，就像很多人工作一样，会有很多收入。

But it was a dream.

但这是一个梦。

I've been talking to Tiiceey since December when I visited him at the prison in Belgium.

自从 12 月去比利时监狱探望 Tiiceey 以来，我就一直在和 Tiiceey 交谈。

It's a massive and foreboding place with a moat, for some reason.

由于某种原因，这是一个巨大而不祥的地方，有一条护城河。

Tiiceey doesn't look like a pirate.

蒂茜看起来不像海盗。

He looks like a professor.

他看起来像一位教授。

He's 6 feet tall and a little chubby.

他身高 6 英尺，有点胖。

He's 44 years old with a goatee that's starting to grey.

他今年 44 岁，山羊胡已经开始变白。

And since we met, he's been calling me from a phone in the lounge area of his cell block.

自从我们见面以来，他一直用他牢房休息区的电话给我打电话。

We've spent hours talking about his work in Somalia and his legal case.

我们花了几个小时谈论他在索马里的工作和他的法律案件。

There's always a TV on in the background so it can get a little tough to hear.

背景总是有电视开着，所以听起来有点困难。

Hello?

你好？

Mohamed Aden Hey, Dana.

穆罕默德·亚丁嘿，达纳。

Good evening.

晚上好。

Good, yes.

很好，是的。

How you doing?

你好吗？

Dana Chivvis I like talking to Tiiceey.

Dana Chivvis 我喜欢和 Tiiceey 聊天。

He's smart and he has a good sense of humor.

他很聪明，而且很有幽默感。

At one point, we were trying to figure out how much these phone calls cost.

有一次，我们试图算出这些电话的费用是多少。

He thought they were really expensive.

他认为它们真的很贵。

$5.75.

5.75 美元。

Dana Chivvis So $5.75 a minute is the best price?

Dana Chivvis 那么每分钟 5.75 美元是最优惠的价格吗？

Oh, my god.

我的天啊。

It's a rip-off.

这是一个敲竹杠。

It's like calling Antarctica or somewhere.

这就像给南极洲或其他地方打电话一样。

No, man, it's not.

不，伙计，事实并非如此。

Turns out, by the way, Tiiceey overestimated.

顺便说一句，事实证明，Tiiceey 高估了。

The calls were much less than that.

电话比这少得多。

Only about $1 and change.

只需大约 1 美元和零钱。

Overestimating might be a character flaw of his, as you'll hear.

正如你会听到的，高估可能是他的性格缺陷。

So here's the story he told me about how he went into Somalia full of hope and good intentions and ended up in the clink in Belgium.

这是他告诉我的故事，讲述他如何满怀希望和良好意愿进入索马里，最后在比利时碰壁。

Tiiceey's first priority as governor of Himan and Heeb was to hire police and set up a court system.

蒂西作为希曼和希布州长的首要任务是雇用警察并建立法院系统。

He knew he couldn't make any progress unless there was some security in the area.

他知道除非该地区有一定的安全保障，否则他无法取得任何进展。

He hired police and paid them $50 a month.

他雇佣了警察，每月付给他们 50 美元。

He told me he didn't pay his small administrative staff a salary at first because he wanted to save the little money he had for the police and the judges.

他告诉我，他一开始没有给他的小行政人员发工资，因为他想把仅有的一点钱留给警察和法官。

Make sure they'd stay on his side.

确保他们会站在他一边。

Tiiceey was setting up a government from scratch, so it's not like everyone just accepted the new order.

蒂西是从零开始组建政府的，所以并不是所有人都接受了新命令。

His first month there, the court heard a land dispute.

他到任的第一个月，法庭审理了一起土地纠纷案。

Two men claimed to own the same piece of property, and the guy who lost the case was pretty unhappy about it.

两名男子声称拥有同一处财产，败诉的人对此非常不满。

So he and a bunch of relatives with guns surrounded the disputed land.

于是他和一帮拿着枪的亲戚包围了这片有争议的土地。

Tiiceey's soldiers showed up and the occupiers--

蒂西的士兵出现了，占领者——

They opened fire.

他们开枪了。

And one of my soldiers died.

我的一名士兵死了。

Tiiceey's men ended up killing three of the occupiers.

蒂西的手下最终杀死了三名占领者。

I'm not proud of killing people, but that was actually the turning point of the respect that we get.

我并不以杀人为荣，但这实际上是我们获得尊重的转折点。

That's the day the administration became a real administration.

从那天起，政府成为真正的政府。

After that incident, people started to respect Tiiceey's new administration.

那次事件之后，人们开始尊重蒂西的新政府。

He had authority now.

他现在有权力了。

He was writing laws and he was able to enforce them, but it was still pretty scary.

他正在制定法律，并且能够执行这些法律，但这仍然相当可怕。

Every morning when you wake up you're thinking about how I'm going to die today.

每天早上，当你醒来时，你都会想我今天将如何死去。

If I'm going to die, am I going to die with bullets?

如果我要死的话，我会被子弹打死吗？

Am I going to die with [INAUDIBLE]?

我会带着[听不清]死去吗？

Am I going to die with suicide?

我会自杀而死吗？

Am I going to die with my staff killing me?

我会被我的员工杀死吗？

Seriously.

严重地。

And that's the environment you're working on.

这就是您正在工作的环境。

What I do on a daily basis is to solve the problems for the people, whether it is lack of food or it's water.

我每天所做的就是为人民解决问题，无论是缺乏食物还是缺水。

That's Tiiceey talking to a New York Times video journalist in 2009, a year after he started the government.

这是蒂西在 2009 年与《纽约时报》视频记者的谈话，也就是他组建政府一年后。

In other work, you can't measure your success, but this is very easy to measure for success.

在其他工作中，你无法衡量自己的成功，但这很容易衡量成功。

You can see in the people's eyes that you helped them and you feel good.

你可以从人们的眼中看到你帮助了他们并且你感觉很好。

You feel good about that.

你对此感觉很好。

That interview happened because a New York Times reporter named Jeffrey Gettleman caught wind of the changes happening in Adado and he decided to go see for himself.

To get there, he had to hire one militia for the start of the journey, who handed him off to a second militia who drove him the rest of the way into Adado.

So as we pulled in, we saw lots of new construction, lots of houses with brand new, shiny metal roofs, a relatively new school, new stores, lights.

It was like an oasis of development in the middle of a very neglected, remote area.

它就像一个被忽视的偏远地区中间的一片发展绿洲。

Did you feel safer there than you did in your other trips around Somalia?

您是否觉得那里比您在索马里其他地方旅行时更安全？

I felt pretty safe there.

我在那里感觉很安全。

And maybe that was totally ridiculous, but I felt safe there because I trusted Tiiceey.

也许这完全是荒谬的，但我在那里感到安全，因为我信任蒂西。

And he had control.

他有控制权。

I had been in Somalia enough I could tell who was the real deal and who was a pretender, and he seemed like the real deal.

我在索马里待得够久了，我能分辨出谁是货真价实的，谁是冒充的，而他看起来就是货真价实的。

But Tiiceey still had one major problem to tackle: pirates.

但蒂西仍然有一个主要问题需要解决：海盗。

They were more powerful than anyone else at that time.

他们比当时任何人都更强大。

The years that Tiiceey was governor, 2008 until 2013, that's when the piracy epidemic was raging in Somalia.

蒂塞西担任州长期间，2008年至2013年，索马里海盗猖獗。

In fact, piracy was so pervasive that it was basically its own industry-- one that cost the world economy billions each year.

事实上，盗版如此普遍，以至于它基本上是一个独立的行业，每年给世界经济造成数十亿美元的损失。

In 2010, more than 1,000 people were taken hostage at sea.

2010年，有1000多人在海上被劫为人质。

Nobody, not the Somali federal government or rich Western nations, had been able to roust them.

没有人，无论是索马里联邦政府还是富裕的西方国家，都能够唤醒他们。

Tiiceey's region was home to one of the most notorious pirate towns in Somalia, a place called Harardhere.

蒂西所在的地区是索马里最臭名昭著的海盗城镇之一的所在地，这个地方名叫哈拉尔。

Tiiceey set up local governments in other towns in the region, but when he went to Harardhere, the elders there told him not to bother.

蒂西在该地区的其他城镇设立了地方政府，但当他前往哈拉尔代尔时，那里的长老告诉他不要打扰。

The pirates controlled everything.

海盗控制了一切。

They'd even set up a pirate stock exchange there in the building where anyone could go and buy shares in a pirate venture.

他们甚至在大楼里设立了一个海盗股票交易所，任何人都可以去购买海盗企业的股票。

They had more guns and more men and more money than Tiiceey did, and they weren't going to listen to him.

他们比蒂西拥有更多的枪、更多的人和更多的钱，但他们不会听他的。

In April of 2009, Tiiceey says he met with the president of Somalia and told him he needed help fighting the pirates.

2009 年 4 月，蒂塞西说，他会见了索马里总统，并告诉他需要帮助打击海盗。

Luckily, the president had worked to eradicate piracy himself in the same area in 2006 and it had worked for a little while.

幸运的是，2006 年，总统亲自在同一地区致力于消除海盗行为，并且取得了一定的效果。

The president knew someone who could help Tiiceey-- a guy called Mohamed Abdi Hassan.

总统认识一个可以帮助蒂西的人——一个叫穆罕默德·阿卜迪·哈桑的人。

He goes by the nickname Afweyne, which means "big mouth."

他的绰号是“Afweyne”，意思是“大嘴”。

He was a Somali businessman and also the godfather of modern Somali piracy.

他是索马里商人，也是现代索马里海盗的教父。

Afweyne is the guy who figured out that you could run a piracy business like any other legitimate business-- by raising capital from investors and then funding piracy ventures on the high seas.

Did you have the thought of, like, why would I hire a guy who's a big pirate to run my anti-piracy campaign?

您是否想过，为什么我要雇用一个大盗版者来开展我的反盗版活动？

To be honest with you-- I'm not hiding anything-- but at that time, he was a businessman.

老实说——我没有隐瞒任何事情——但当时，他是一名商人。

No, no. He was [INAUDIBLE].

不，不。他[听不清]。

He had an office in Harardhere at that time.

当时他在哈拉代尔有一个办公室。

He was bringing khat.

他带来了阿拉伯茶。

Khat.

卡塔叶。

Khat is a leaf that gives you a little buzz when you chew it.

卡塔叶是一种叶子，咀嚼时会发出轻微的嗡嗡声。

It's legal in Somalia, and pirates apparently chew the stuff all day long.

这在索马里是合法的，而且海盗显然整天都在嚼这种东西。

What was Afweyne-- as a member of the committee, what was he actually doing?

阿夫文是什么——作为委员会的成员，他实际上在做什么？

He knew most of those guys, especially the middlemen.

他认识其中的大多数人，尤其是中间人。

He knows a lot.

他知道很多。

Yes, yes, even the kingpins.

是的，是的，甚至是主要人物。

He knows a lot because most of them used to work for him.

他知道很多，因为他们中的大多数都曾经为他工作过。

If this doesn't seem like the greatest idea, to hire one of the most notorious pirates to help you end piracy, Tiiceey said he didn't have much of a choice.

And actually, Afweyne turned out to be really helpful.

事实上，阿夫文确实很有帮助。

This was their plan.

这是他们的计划。

Step one, pirate shaming.

第一步，海盗羞辱。

Convince the local imams to start teaching people that piracy is forbidden in the Koran so the pirates become ostracized.

说服当地的伊玛目开始教导人们《古兰经》禁止海盗行为，这样海盗就会受到排斥。

Step two, create an economic incentive.

第二步，创造经济激励。

Give the pirates other job opportunities that don't require hijacking and kidnapping-- like maybe create a market for fish.

为海盗提供其他不需要劫持和绑架的工作机会——比如也许创造一个鱼市场。

Step three, pirate rehabilitation.

第三步，海盗康复。

When they caught the lower-level pirates, the foot soldiers, Tiiceey sent them to a rehabilitation camp.

当他们抓到低级海盗、步兵后，蒂西把他们送到了康复营。

Taught them new job skills, including how to read and write.

教他们新的工作技能，包括如何阅读和写作。

And with the pirate bosses, the kingpins, Tiiceey had one especially attractive incentive to offer them to get them to quit the business.

对于海盗头目、头目，蒂西有一个特别有吸引力的激励措施，可以向他们提供帮助，让他们退出这个行业。

Immunity.

免疫。

Which, Tiiceey points out, only applies to the Somali government.

蒂西指出，这仅适用于索马里政府。

It doesn't mean the US or Britain or Belgium, for instance, couldn't capture them later.

例如，这并不意味着美国、英国或比利时以后无法捕获它们。

But he doesn't mention that part to them.

但他没有向他们提及那部分。

You think I never lied to them?

你认为我从来没有对他们撒过谎吗？

I lied.

我撒谎了。

I lied.

我撒谎了。

I tell them many lies.

我对他们说了很多谎言。

You told the pirates many lies, the kingpins many lies?

你对海盗说了很多谎，对头目说了很多谎吗？

Of course, yes.

当然，是的。

I tell them many lies to get them.

为了得到他们，我对他们说了很多谎言。

To get them out of hiding.

为了让他们摆脱躲藏。

Mohamed Aden Exactly.

穆罕默德·亚丁没错。

You have to lie because this is your livelihood.

你必须撒谎，因为这是你的生计。

You want this to finish.

你想让这件事结束。

You want this to be your legacy.

你希望这成为你的遗产。

By 2012, pirate attacks on big ships had effectively stopped in all of Somalia.

到 2012 年，海盗对大型船只的袭击实际上已在索马里全境停止。

A lot of that had to do with stuff that was happening on the water.

其中很多都与水上发生的事情有关。

Foreign navies were patrolling the ocean.

外国海军正在海上巡逻。

And maritime companies started putting armed security on their boats and sailing faster and further from the coast.

海运公司开始在船上配备武装保安，并让航行速度更快、离海岸更远。

And in Himan and Heeb in December, 2012, Tiiceey held a press conference, where he sat onstage as a bunch of local pirates publicly retired in front of cameras and reporters in return for immunity.

It was a huge moment for him.

这对他来说是一个重要的时刻。

It was a good legacy.

这是一份很好的遗产。

It was the biggest thing I'd ever done, other than I introduced the region to peace, order, and good governance.

这是我做过的最重要的事情，除了我给这个地区带来了和平、秩序和良好的治理。

So that's something.

所以就是这样。

A few months after the press conference, Tiiceey got an email out of the blue from a guy called Yunus Collier, who was with a film company in Europe.

He said they wanted to make a documentary about piracy and they wanted to talk to Tiiceey about how he dealt with the pirates in Himan and Heeb.

他说他们想制作一部关于海盗的纪录片，他们想和 Tiiceey 谈谈他如何对付希曼和希布的海盗。

Tiiceey agreed to meet in New York for a few days to talk about the project.

Tiiceey 同意在纽约会面几天，讨论该项目。

The filmmakers put him up at the Trump International Hotel and Tower right on Central Park.

电影制片人把他安排在中央公园附近的特朗普国际酒店大厦。

The first morning there, Yunus shows up.

在那里的第一天早上，尤努斯出现了。

Ti noticed he was a little hyper and his clothes weren't as nice as he was expecting.

蒂注意到他有点亢奋，而且他的衣服也没有他想象的那么好。

So Tiiceey teases him.

所以蒂茜取笑他。

You don't dress like you are in a film company.

你的穿着不像是在电影公司。

Right.

正确的。

It wasn't fancy.

这并不花哨。

Mohamed Aden Because usually, it wasn't fancy.

Mohamed Aden 因为通常情况下，它并不花哨。

I can't see that.

我看不到这一点。

So I joked about, you don't dress like you are working in--

所以我开玩笑说，你穿得不像你在工作的样子——

Oh, OK.

哦，好吧。

Mohamed Aden Monday I will call you.

穆罕默德·亚丁星期一我会给你打电话。

Thanks so much, Tiiceey.

非常感谢，蒂西。

Have a good w-- have a nice-- I don't know.

祝你玩得开心——祝你玩得开心——我不知道。

I guess have a nice weekend.

You're in prison, but.

你在监狱里，但是。

Sometimes I forget he's in prison.

有时我忘记他在监狱里。

Anyway, we got back to the story a few days later.

不管怎样，几天后我们又回到了这个故事。

Tiiceey says Yunus's boss was there also.

They spent three days together.

Took Tiiceey on a helicopter ride around Manhattan and out for nice meals.

带蒂西乘坐直升机环游曼哈顿并出去享用美味佳肴。

Eventually, Yunus got down to business.

最终，尤努斯开始谈正事。

He wanted Tiiceey and Afweyne to be consultants on the film.

他希望蒂西和阿夫文担任这部电影的顾问。

He said, that is what we want.

他说，这就是我们想要的。

We've got to show you a script.

And he says that we're going to pay you your time.

They said, we're going to pay, if the project had finished and everything finished, $200,000 each.

他们说，如果项目完成并且一切都完成，我们将每人支付 20 万美元。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah, $200,000 each, going to pay that.

是的，每人20万美元，我会支付的。

Tiiceey agreed.

蒂西同意了。

They had one last meal at the Grand Central Oyster Bar.

他们在大中央牡蛎酒吧吃了最后一顿饭。

The filmmakers asked Tiiceey to convince Afweyne to help, too.

电影制片人要求蒂西说服阿夫文也提供帮助。

And once Afweyne was on board, they'd all meet in Europe for a week, where they'd get to work.

一旦阿夫文加入，他们就会在欧洲见面一周，然后开始工作。

Seven days in Europe, $200,000 each to consult on a film about pirates.

在欧洲呆 7 天，每人 20 万美元，为一部关于海盗的电影提供咨询。

Pirates.

海盗。

Who could refuse?

谁能拒绝呢？

Tiiceey and Afweyne landed in Brussels a month later.

一个月后，蒂西和阿夫文抵达布鲁塞尔。

When they showed their passports, there was something wrong with Afweyne's visa.

当他们出示护照时，发现阿夫文的签证有问题。

They were escorted to airport police.

他们被机场警察护送至机场。

My gut feeling tells me that I'm in trouble.

Really?

真的吗？

Mohamed Aden Whatever it is.

Yes.

是的。

So after one hour, federal police came and he introduced himself.

一小时后，联邦警察来了，他做了自我介绍。

He says, my name is Van Osselaer.

I'm the federal police.

我是联邦警察。

And I am here to take your freedom away.

It was all a ruse.

这全是一个诡计。

All of it was fake.

一切都是假的。

Yunus Collier, the meetings in New York, the documentary film about eradicating piracy.

尤努斯·科利尔（Yunus Collier），纽约会议，关于根除盗版的纪录片。

It was the Belgian federal police the whole time.

An elaborate plan to lure Afweyne to Belgium, where they could arrest him and prosecute him for the hijacking of a Belgian ship called The Pompeii.

一个精心策划的计划，将阿夫文引诱到比利时，在那里他们可以逮捕他并起诉他劫持一艘名为庞贝号的比利时船只。

The Pompeii was taken in April, 2009, which was actually just a few months before Afweyne joined up with Tiiceey to fight piracy.

庞贝古城于 2009 年 4 月被占领，实际上就在 Afweyne 与 Tiiceey 联手打击海盗的几个月前。

The Belgians found Afweyne's DNA on a coffee cup in the captain's cabin of The Pompeii.

They'd used Tiiceey to get to Afweyne.

Tiiceey's lawyer says the Belgians weren't after Tiiceey at all.

But in their excitement over catching Afweyne, they got carried away and locked Tiiceey up, too.

但由于抓到阿夫文的兴奋，他们得意忘形，把蒂茜也关了起来。

Did you feel a little like the world's worst prank had just been played on you?

您是否感觉有点像世界上最糟糕的恶作剧刚刚对您进行了？

I feel like a cheap.

我感觉自己很廉价。

Dana Chivvis You feel like a what?

Cheap.

便宜的。

Cheap.

便宜的。

Very cheap.

非常便宜。

Dana Chivvis Very cheap.

达纳奇夫维斯非常便宜。

Humiliated and very cheap.

Dana Chivvis Tiiceey and Afweyne, the guys who say they put the pirates out of business in Himan and Heeb, were both charged with piracy.

达纳·奇夫维斯·蒂塞西（Dana Chivvis Tiiceey）和阿夫韦恩（Afweyne）声称他们让希曼和希布的海盗破产，他们都被指控犯有海盗罪。

There's pretty strong evidence against Tiiceey.

The Belgians are saying that, when Tiiceey started working with Afweyne, Afweyne was still hijacking ships and Tiiceey got wrapped up in Afweyne's criminal organization, would insert himself into the negotiations for hostage releases, and used it to run a little side hustle.

比利时人说，当蒂西西开始与阿夫文合作时，阿夫文仍在劫持船只，蒂西西卷入了阿夫文的犯罪组织，他会介入人质释放谈判，并利用它来从事一些副业。

He'd demand additional money from the hostages' families-- tens of thousands of dollars-- for use of the airport at Adado.

That's extortion.

这就是敲诈勒索。

The Belgians claim he extorted money from the families of hostages in four specific piracy cases.

One of them is the kidnapping of Rachel and Paul Chandler.

That's the recording you heard at the beginning of this story.

Rachel's brother, Stephen, is on the phone with Paul, telling him to trust Tiiceey.

He is a good man and you can trust him.

他是个好人，你可以信任他。

He is not a pirate.

他不是海盗。

I repeat, he is not a pirate.

我再说一遍，他不是海盗。

But Stephen told me that wasn't how he actually felt about Tiiceey in that moment.

In reality--

事实上——

I was very skeptical of him and thought he was just a greedy little thief, to be honest.

Coming up, more of Dana Chivvis' story.

We hear what actually happened between Stephen and Tiiceey-- the actual recordings of theirs conversations as they're trying to get the hostages to safety.

我们听到了斯蒂芬和蒂西之间实际发生的事情——他们试图将人质转移到安全地带时的对话的实际录音。

It isn't pretty.

这并不漂亮。

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today on our program, I Am Not a Pirate-- stories where people make that claim.

Apparently it's something people say when they aren't a pirate and also when they are a pirate.

We're in the middle of Dana Chivvis' story about Tiiceey, a man who returned to Somalia to try to help out and ended up accused of criminal conspiracy with pirates.

我们正在了解达纳·奇夫维斯 (Dana Chivvis) 讲述蒂西 (Tiiceey) 的故事，蒂西 (Tiiceey) 回到索马里试图提供帮助，最终被指控与海盗串谋犯罪。

And we pick up the story in the middle of a negotiation that Tiiceey was involved in with Stephen Collett.

我们在蒂西与史蒂芬·科利特的谈判中讲述了这个故事。

He was trying to arrange for safe passage for his sister and his brother-in-law, Rachel and Paul, who were being held by pirates.

Again, here's Dana.

再说一次，这是达纳。

At this point in the negotiation, Stephen had agreed to pay the Pirates $440,000 for Rachel and Paul's release.

谈判进行到此时，史蒂芬同意向海盗队支付 44 万美元，以释放瑞秋和保罗。

Tiiceey wasn't involved in that part of things, but he had offered to help Stephen with the logistics of getting Rachel and Paul out of Somalia.

Tiiceey wrote an email saying his administration, quote, "are not part of the pirates and don't deal or/and share money, and we are not expecting ANY--" this word is capitalized-- "ANY payment from the pirates or Paul and Rachel family.

蒂斯西写了一封电子邮件，援引他的话称，他的政府“不属于海盗的一部分，不进行交易或/和分享金钱，我们不期望任何——”这个词大写——“海盗或保罗和雷切尔家族的任何付款。

The only support we are offering was humanitarian support and to facilitate Paul and Rachel's safe passage."

我们提供的唯一支持是人道主义支持以及帮助保罗和雷切尔安全通过。”

Stephen needed permission to use the airport in Adado, which, as far as I can tell, is just a dusty landing strip a few miles outside town.

斯蒂芬需要获得使用阿达多机场的许可，据我所知，该机场只是城外几英里处的一个尘土飞扬的着陆跑道。

As governor, Tiiceey was the only person who could give planes permission to land there, so Stephen called Tiiceey to get that permission.

作为州长，蒂西西是唯一可以允许飞机在那里降落的人，因此斯蒂芬打电话给蒂西西以获得许可。

Thank you for ringing back.

Mohamed Aden How are you doing, sir?

I'm fine.

我很好。

Did you-- Dana Chivvis They talk about logistics, and then Stephen asks--

How much is this going to cost us?

Because we've got nothing left.

因为我们已经一无所有了。

Listen, I'm not going to charge you anything.

听着，我不会向你收取任何费用。

That's very kind.

这真是太好了。

Mohamed Aden I'm not going to charge you, personally, anything-- money or anything.

穆罕默德·亚丁：我不会向你个人收取任何费用——金钱或任何东西。

I'm doing this out of [INAUDIBLE].

我这样做是出于[听不清]。

I found out [INAUDIBLE]--

我发现[听不清]——

It's kind of hard to hear.

有点难听。

Tiiceey says, "I'm not going to charge you anything as long as you pay the expenses." Four days later, when Stephen calls Tiiceey back, there's been a slight hitch in the plan.

蒂西说：“只要你支付费用，我不会向你收取任何费用。”四天后，当斯蒂芬给蒂西回电话时，计划出现了一些小问题。

They were going to get the money to the pirates through a guy in Nairobi, but that fell through.

他们本来打算通过内罗毕的一个人把钱交给海盗，但最终失败了。

So now they need to deliver the ransom money to the pirates at the Adado airport.

所以现在他们需要将赎金交给阿达多机场的海盗。

Tiiceey doesn't like this.

蒂西不喜欢这样。

Before, the plane was just coming to pick up Rachel and Paul, but now it's also bringing a huge sack of cash, and he says that creates a big security risk.

以前，这架飞机只是来接雷切尔和保罗，但现在它还带来了一大袋现金，他说这造成了很大的安全风险。

He's worried people might get violent and steal the money.

他担心人们可能会变得暴力并偷走钱。

He'll allow it, but he needs extra security.

他会允许的，但他需要额外的安全保障。

So yes, you can go ahead and bring the money to here, and we're secure almost.

所以，是的，你可以把钱带到这里，我们就差不多安全了。

I arranged about 70 to 100 people-- soldiers-- in the airport area to secure the parameter and everything.

我在机场区域安排了大约70到100人——士兵——来确保参数和一切的安全。

And in that case, so including the fee and everything, it's going to be $21,750.

在这种情况下，包括费用和所有费用，费用将是 21,750 美元。

OK.

好的。

This is what I said.

这就是我说的。

Dana Chivvis Tiiceey's telling Stephen that he'll arrange for about 70 to 100 soldiers to secure the airport, which will cost Stephen $21,750.

Dana Chivvis Tiiceey 告诉 Stephen，他将安排大约 70 到 100 名士兵来保卫机场，这将花费 Stephen 21,750 美元。

Stephen wasn't expecting that.

斯蒂芬没想到会这样。

I-- I-- I don't know.

我——我——我不知道。

I'm-- I'm confused about this big cost, Mohamed.

我对这笔巨大的成本感到困惑，穆罕默德。

You told me many times that you would not take any money.

你多次告诉我你不会拿钱。

I-- I-- I know it's difficult.

我--我--我知道这很困难。

The family doesn't have this amount of money to spend.

家里没有这么多钱可以花。

No. Stephen Collett Because we've given everything to--

不，史蒂芬·科利特因为我们已经付出了一切——

Listen, I'm not taking money when you want-- if you find out-- OK, this is what I'm doing.

听着，当你想要的时候我不会拿钱——如果你发现了——好吧，这就是我正在做的事情。

Business landing fee, the extra police, as they put it, the expenses.

商业登陆费，额外的警察费用，用他们的话说，就是费用。

We are not rich like the United States or many other countries.

我们并不像美国或许多其他国家那样富有。

We are a small administration.

我们是一个小型政府。

It's beyond our capacity.

这超出了我们的能力范围。

We have to put a lot of effort in that case.

在这种情况下我们必须付出很多努力。

I fully appreciate, but we just do not have that amount.

我非常感激，但我们就是没有那么多钱。

We just do not have $20,000.

我们只是没有 20,000 美元。

So what you're telling me is you don't have it.

所以你告诉我的是你没有它。

I understand that.

我明白这一点。

But how can I solve-- this is what you need, the security you need.

但我该如何解决——这就是你需要的，你需要的安全。

So what should I do?

那我该怎么办呢？

Tell me.

告诉我。

It's your call.

这是你的决定。

Depending on how you hear this call, they're either in the midst of a bureaucratic stalemate or a small-time extortion.

根据你如何听到这个电话，他们要么陷入官僚僵局，要么陷入小额勒索。

I'm not negotiating.

我不是在谈判。

This is the minimum that we'll need.

这是我们需要的最低限度。

This is not something goes to the pocket of one person.

这可不是一个人口袋里的东西。

Believe me you, I'm not-- [INAUDIBLE], I'm not getting payment whatsoever for that.

相信我，我不是——[听不清]，我没有因此获得任何报酬。

Tiiceey is saying that the number he gave Stephen, the $21,750, that's the minimum amount needed to cover the expenses for securing the airport.

蒂西说，他给斯蒂芬的数字是 21,750 美元，这是支付机场安全费用所需的最低金额。

He's not personally getting any of that money.

他个人并没有得到这些钱。

They do some more haggling and then Tiiceey says, let me see what I can do.

他们又讨价还价，然后蒂西说，让我看看我能做什么。

A few minutes later, he calls Stephen back.

几分钟后，他给斯蒂芬回了电话。

He's managed to secure a discount.

他设法获得了折扣。

OK.

好的。

This is what it is.

就是这样。

I talked to them.

我和他们谈过。

The price was $21,750.

价格为21,750美元。

And then we take 15% discount.

然后我们享受 15% 的折扣。

So in that case, it's going to be $18,487.50.

因此，在这种情况下，它将是 18,487.50 美元。

Yeah.

是的。

You know, we don't have this money.

你知道，我们没有这笔钱。

That's the problem.

这就是问题所在。

I don't have the money, and it's going to take me a long, long time to get hold of it.

我没有钱，而且要花很长时间才能拿到。

OK.

好的。

So this is what you want, Stephen?

这就是你想要的，斯蒂芬？

You want that airplane come with the money, no security, and then they hand out everything.

你希望那架飞机带着钱来，没有安全保障，然后他们就把一切都分发出去。

That's what you want?

这就是你想要的？

And then the fights start in my people, and then almost 57 people die because of these small money and difficult people?

然后我的人民就开始打架，然后几乎有 57 个人因为这些小钱和难相处的人而死？

Is that what you want?

这就是你想要的吗？

Of course I don't want anyone hurt, Mohamed.

我当然不想让任何人受伤，穆罕默德。

Of course I don't.

我当然不这么认为。

But Stephen didn't believe that Tiiceey was worried about security.

但史蒂芬并不相信蒂茜会担心安全问题。

He thought it was a scam.

他认为这是一个骗局。

He knew he'd got us.

他知道他抓住了我们。

He was in control.

他一切尽在掌控之中。

It was his airfield and he could do what he liked.

这是他的机场，他可以做他喜欢做的事。

We'd spoken to the local pilots, the bush pilots who do sometimes run into these places, and they said the normal fee was about $100.

我们曾与当地飞行员、丛林飞行员交谈过，他们有时会跑到这些地方，他们说正常费用约为 100 美元。

Yes.

是的。

Dana Chivvis And he's asking for $21,750?

Dana Chivvis 他要价 21,750 美元？

That's right.

这是正确的。

Then he gave us a discount for cash.

然后他给了我们现金折扣。

Yeah, he did.

是的，他做到了。

The UN released a report that has a lengthy section on Tiiceey and Afweyne and their alleged criminal activity.

It mirrors the Belgian case closely.

它与比利时的情况密切相关。

And in it, there's a sheet from the Himan and Heeb Regional Administration.

里面有一张来自希曼和希布地区管理局的表格。

It's signed by Tiiceey, and it outlines fees for airlines using the Adado airport.

它由 Tiiceey 签署，概述了使用阿达多机场的航空公司的费用。

The costs are $5 per ticket, $1 per sack of outgoing goods, $50 security fee for a 50-seat flight.

Of course, those prices were for normal flights in and out of Adado carrying regular passengers and bags of khat, not two British hostages and nearly half a million dollars.

当然，这些价格是针对进出阿达多的普通航班，载有普通乘客和袋阿拉伯茶，而不是两名英国人质和近 50 万美元。

But still, given those prices, $21,750 seems a bit extravagant, even with the extra security.

但考虑到这些价格，21,750 美元似乎有点奢侈，即使有额外的安全保障。

I went around and around with Tiiceey about this fee and what it was spent on, and it never added up.

我和 Tiiceey 一起讨论了这笔费用以及它的用途，但它从来没有加起来。

Maybe he was pocketing part of the cash.

也许他把部分现金装进了自己的口袋。

Maybe he wasn't.

也许他不是。

Maybe the people he had to pay for the use of the airport and security were inflating their price.

也许他必须为使用机场和安检付费的人抬高了他们的价格。

There's no way to know for sure.

没有办法确定。

Finally, Stephen gave in.

最后，斯蒂芬屈服了。

They agreed on a price of $20,000.

他们商定的价格为 20,000 美元。

The money was transferred to a Himan and Heeb Administration account.

这笔钱被转入希曼和希布管理账户。

Tiiceey assures Stephen it's not his personal account.

He's not a dictator.

他不是独裁者。

The ransom and rescue operation is set for June 17.

赎金和救援行动定于 6 月 17 日进行。

The pilot will take off from Nairobi at dawn with a leather bag containing five bundles of $100 bills-- $440,000 in total.

There's one last glitch, which is that the pilot refuses to actually touch down in Adado because--

还有最后一个小故障，那就是飞行员拒绝真正在阿达多着陆，因为——

Well, he didn't want to be caught by pirates.

好吧，他不想被海盗抓住。

So instead, he'll fly very low to the ground and two security guys on board will chuck the ransom out the window into the pirate's hands-- a guy called Ali.

因此，他会飞得很低到地面，机上的两名保安人员会将赎金从窗外扔到海盗手中——一个叫阿里的人。

He's the pirate Stephen has been negotiating with for months.

他就是史蒂芬几个月来一直与之谈判的海盗。

The pilot will know where Ali is because-- and I'm not joking here-- he will mark the spot with an X on the roof of his car.

飞行员会知道阿里在哪里，因为——我不是在开玩笑——他会在车顶上用 X 标记该位置。

Now, Tiiceey had told Stephen he would supply 100 policemen to provide security at the airport.

现在，蒂西告诉斯蒂芬，他将派遣 100 名警察在机场提供安全保障。

But when the pilot got into Adado's airspace, all he saw was one lonely car with an X on its roof, parked off the end of the runway.

The pilot was already on the phone with Stephen, so Stephen called Tiiceey and said--

飞行员已经在和史蒂芬通电话了，所以史蒂芬打电话给蒂冰说——

Where are your men?

你的男人在哪里？

And suddenly, another vehicle appeared from the town.

突然，镇上出现了另一辆车。

The pilot said, oh yes, I can see a pickup coming from the town now with a couple of men in the back.

Oh, my god.

我的天啊。

So his 100 security men and five armored cars turned out to be a pickup truck and two guys.

所以他的100名保安和五辆装甲车原来是一辆皮卡车和两个人。

Well, a pickup truck driver and two guys in the back.

Who were late.

谁迟到了。

Stephen Collett Who were late.

史蒂芬·科利特谁迟到了。

The pilot did one low pass and then on the second, they threw the ransom out the window.

Ali called Stephen a few minutes later to confirm he had the money.

The pirates were supposed to spend the next few hours counting it, and then once they confirmed it was all there, they would hand Rachel and Paul over.

海盗们应该在接下来的几个小时里清点它，然后一旦他们确认一切都在那里，他们就会把雷切尔和保罗交给他们。

So what happened?

那么发生了什么？

Stephen Collett It all went quiet.

史蒂芬·科利特一切都安静了。

And that worried us a little.

这让我们有点担心。

We did have suspicions.

我们确实有怀疑。

Even that night we thought, this doesn't sound good.

甚至那天晚上我们都在想，这听起来不太好。

And we did try ringing Ali, but his phone was turned off that night.

我们确实尝试给阿里打电话，但那天晚上他的电话关机了。

He didn't hear from Ali again for two days.

他已经两天没有再收到阿里的消息了。

And then Stephen got a text demanding another $1 million in ransom.

然后斯蒂芬收到一条短信，要求另外支付 100 万美元的赎金。

Eventually, Stephen got Ali on the phone.

最终，斯蒂芬给阿里打了电话。

Ali's gone full Blackbeard and Stephen's stiff upper lip is gone.

阿里完全变成了黑胡子，斯蒂芬僵硬的上唇也消失了。

He tries threats.

他尝试威胁。

Ali mocks him.

阿里嘲笑他。

Here's that call.

这是那个电话。

We will tell all the ship bosses that the Somali pirates cannot be trusted.

我们会告诉所有的船老大，索马里海盗是不可信任的。

That you-- you, Ali-- cannot be trusted.

你——你，阿里——不值得信任。

I will talk to them now and I--

我现在要和他们谈谈，而且我——

Don't you know that pirates, we are all thieves?

难道你不知道海盗，我们都是小偷吗？

All of us are all thieves.

我们所有人都是小偷。

We are all dirty people.

我们都是肮脏的人。

Ali says, don't you know that pirates are all thieves?

阿里说，你不知道海盗都是小偷吗？

We're all dirty people.

我们都是肮脏的人。

Like, come on, Stephen.

就像，来吧，斯蒂芬。

What did you expect?

你期待什么？

Ali laughs at him.

阿里嘲笑他。

You're lying, cheating scum, Ali.

你在撒谎，骗人的败类，阿里。

The shipowners will never, ever trust you again.

船东永远不会再信任你。

When you're ready to talk of the release of Rachel and Paul--

当你准备好谈论瑞秋和保罗的释放时——

[INAUDIBLE], Stephen-- Stephen Collett --call me.

[听不清]，斯蒂芬——斯蒂芬·科利特——给我打电话。

You have my number.

你有我的号码。

You can call me this time, between 11:00 and 12 o'clock your time.

这次你可以在你的时间 11:00 到 12 点之间给我打电话。

I will only talk about the release of Rachel and Paul.

我只会谈论雷切尔和保罗的释放。

Bye.

再见。

The pirates didn't release Rachel and Paul for another five months.

海盗们又过了五个月才释放瑞秋和保罗。

Fast forward to now.

快进到现在。

The UN and the Belgians and Stephen Collett say that those phone calls, where Tiiceey is demanding money of Stephen, that's extortion.

联合国、比利时人和斯蒂芬·科利特表示，蒂西向斯蒂芬索要钱财的电话是敲诈勒索。

He's refusing to let Stephen use the Adado airport unless Stephen pays him an amount that far exceeds the normal cost for use of the airport.

他拒绝让斯蒂芬使用阿达多机场，除非斯蒂芬向他支付远远超过机场使用正常费用的费用。

And they say this is part of a pattern with Tiiceey, that he did this in at least three other hostage cases.

他们说这是蒂西的一个模式的一部分，他在至少另外三起人质案件中也这样做过。

Up to $120,000 in one case.

一件案件最高可达 120,000 美元。

Tiiceey says he's innocent of all charges of wrongdoing.

蒂西说他对所有不当行为的指控都是清白的。

But two months after we started talking, I heard all those recordings of his phone calls and I realized that some of the things he told me weren't true.

但在我们开始交谈两个月后，我听到了他所有的电话录音，我意识到他告诉我的一些事情并不真实。

For instance, we were talking about the plan for Rachel and Paul's release and he told me--

例如，我们正在谈论雷切尔和保罗的释放计划，他告诉我——

He says.

他说。

"There's no cost whatsoever." That's not what I heard on that phone call with Stephen.

“没有任何成本。”这不是我在与斯蒂芬的电话中听到的。

You're saying you didn't ask him for any money.

你说你没有向他要钱。

OK.

好的。

I think-- I think we can clear this up.

我想——我想我们可以解决这个问题。

I want to play something for you.

我想为你演奏一些东西。

(ON TAPE) So all the fees and everything with the fee, it's going to come to $21,750.

（录音带）因此，所有费用以及所有费用将达到 21,750 美元。

I played him that phone call you heard.

我给他打了你听到的那个电话。

At first, he sounded confused.

起初，他听起来很困惑。

He stuck with his denial.

他坚持否认。

Stephen Collett, he called me, but I never asked him for money.

斯蒂芬·科利特，他给我打电话，但我从来没有向他要过钱。

Well, you just-- I mean, you just heard yourself, right?

好吧，你只是——我的意思是，你刚刚听到自己的声音，对吧？

Ask him for money in that tape I just played you.

在我刚刚给你播放的那盘磁带里向他要钱。

No, I understand.

不，我明白。

I understand very clearly.

我明白得很清楚。

Tiiceey told me the $21,750 was money the airport owners were demanding, not him.

Tiiceey 告诉我，21,750 美元是机场老板要的钱，而不是他。

But Tiiceey, I mean, you can see how this would look like extortion.

但是蒂西，我的意思是，你可以看到这看起来像是敲诈勒索。

In a way, yes, I can understand.

在某种程度上，是的，我可以理解。

It looks like extortion, but it wasn't extortion in reality.

看上去像是敲诈勒索，但实际上并不是敲诈勒索。

How is it not extortion?

怎么可能不是敲诈勒索呢？

Mohamed Aden We don't have that much money to pay.

穆罕默德·亚丁：我们没有那么多钱可以付。

OK.

好的。

I didn't have-- yes, to him, it's extortion.

我没有——是的，对他来说，这是敲诈勒索。

I understand.

我明白。

That's what I'm saying.

这就是我所说的。

But to me, at that time, I didn't have that much money to cover.

但对于当时的我来说，我并没有那么多钱可以支付。

Meaning his administration couldn't cover the expenses.

这意味着他的政府无法支付这些费用。

And the fact that no security was on duty when the pilot dropped the ransom?

当飞行员扔下赎金时，没有保安值班？

Tiiceey explained that when he learned the pilot wasn't going to land the plane, he decided there was no reason to send police that day.

蒂西解释说，当他得知飞行员不打算降落飞机时，他认为那天没有理由派警察来。

But he says he used Stephen's money five months later, when Rachel and Paul were finally released.

但他说，五个月后，雷切尔和保罗终于被释放，他用了斯蒂芬的钱。

And in a book Rachel and Paul wrote about their ordeal, they do describe driving to the airport with Tiiceey in a convoy of 15 Toyotas and three or four trucks mounted with guns.

在雷切尔和保罗写的一本关于他们的苦难的书中，他们确实描述了与蒂西在由 15 辆丰田车和三四辆装有枪支的卡车组成的车队中开车去机场的情况。

We had to hang up before we were done talking about this.

我们还没聊完这件事就挂了电话。

The next time I reached him was two days later.

两天后我再次联系他。

Let me go back a little bit.

让我稍微回顾一下。

And this, I've never discussed with anyone before what I'm saying now, except to you.

而这一点，我以前从未与任何人讨论过我现在所说的话，除了你。

First, I call the airport committee and I told them that this is what's going on.

首先，我打电话给机场委员会，告诉他们事情就是这样。

This is what's going to happen.

这就是将会发生的事情。

Tiiceey tells me he asked the owners of the airport to let Rachel and Paul use it for free as a humanitarian gesture, but they said no. They said, we built an airport.

蒂西告诉我，他请求机场所有者允许雷切尔和保罗免费使用它，作为一种人道主义姿态，但他们拒绝了。他们说，我们建了一个机场。

We get to charge people to use it.

我们要向人们收取使用它的费用。

So then Tiiceey says he went to the regional parliament and asked them to step in.

蒂塞西说，他去了地区议会，要求他们介入。

I wasn't able to confirm any of this, by the way.

顺便说一句，我无法证实这一点。

He says they also said no. His hands were tied.

他说他们也拒绝了。他的双手被绑着。

He had to ask for the $21,750.

他不得不索要 21,750 美元。

He said, actually, the airport owners weren't making much profit for themselves at that price.

他说，实际上，按照这个价格，机场所有者并没有为自己赚取多少利润。

Regardless, $21,750 is the number he now admits he demanded from Stephen.

不管怎样，他现在承认他向斯蒂芬索要的金额是 21,750 美元。

Actually, he didn't like it.

事实上，他并不喜欢。

Dana Chivvis No.

达纳·奇维斯 No.

And Stephen, to be honest with you, I knew that, because if I were in his shoes, it's going to be saying we're all pissed off and feel betrayed, lied to me or something.

斯蒂芬，说实话，我知道这一点，因为如果我站在他的立场上，就会说我们都很生气，感觉被背叛了，对我撒了谎或者其他什么。

Yeah.

是的。

Mohamed Aden But I explained to him.

穆罕默德·亚丁但我向他解释了。

I explained to him again and again and then--

我一遍又一遍地向他解释，然后——

But the way you explain it to him, it sounds very much as though you're telling him, I'm in charge of the airport and I talked to my committee, and we assessed that it's going to cost you this much.

但你向他解释的方式，听起来很像你在告诉他，我负责机场，我和我的委员会谈过，我们评估这会让你花这么多钱。

You don't explain it to him the way that you just explained it to me.

你没有像你刚才向我解释的那样向他解释。

In the way you just explained it to me, you're not responsible for any of the cost.

按照您刚才向我解释的方式，您无需承担任何费用。

But Dana, I didn't want to explain it the way I explained to you.

但是达纳，我不想像我向你解释的那样解释它。

How come?

怎么会？

Mohamed Aden I didn't want to show him that I was kind of weak in a way.

穆罕默德·亚丁（Mohamed Aden）我不想让他知道我在某种程度上很弱。

It shows me that I was weak, and I didn't want to show that.

这表明我很软弱，而我不想表现出来。

And I'm telling you that I never discussed it with anyone before, except you now, the details.

我告诉你，我以前从未与任何人讨论过这个问题，除了你现在，细节。

What were you worried about?

你担心什么？

Why were you worried about looking weak to Stephen?

你为什么担心在斯蒂芬面前显得软弱？

Because, what I'm saying is, if Stephen finds out that I don't have control of anything, then he will find out that I don't have control of what I'm saying.

因为，我想说的是，如果斯蒂芬发现我无法控制任何事情，那么他也会发现我无法控制我所说的话。

And I'm the man who says, hey, I control Himan and Heeb.

我就是那个说，嘿，我控制希曼和希布的人。

In a way, yes, I controlled Himan and Heeb.

在某种程度上，是的，我控制了希曼和希布。

I didn't lie about that.

对此我没有撒谎。

But I don't control certain areas, and there are certain elements that I have no authority whatsoever.

但有些领域我不控制，有些部分我没有任何权力。

Tiiceey told me he was worried that if Stephen or the pirates realized he didn't have as much control over the airport as they thought he did that the deal would fall apart and Rachel and Paul would remain in captivity.

蒂西告诉我，他担心如果斯蒂芬或海盗们意识到他对机场的控制权并不像他们想象的那么大，那么这笔交易就会失败，而雷切尔和保罗将继续被囚禁。

So he swallowed a bitter pill and demanded the money from Stephen.

于是他吞下了苦果，向斯蒂芬索要钱。

I was pissed off.

我很生气。

Yes, of course.

是的当然。

I lost that war.

我输掉了那场战争。

But I knew I am going to win another war.

但我知道我将赢得另一场战争。

I was feeling very complicated.

我的心情非常复杂。

And I was feeling very, in a way, yes, I'm doing something positive and, in a way, I was doing something horrible.

我感觉非常，在某种程度上，是的，我正在做一些积极的事情，但在某种程度上，我正在做一些可怕的事情。

And I'm the one who's delivering the message on both sides.

我是向双方传递信息的人。

He was doing something positive, helping to free Rachel and Paul.

他正在做一些积极的事情，帮助释放雷切尔和保罗。

And he was doing something horrible, demanding money from Rachel's desperate brother.

他正在做一些可怕的事情，向雷切尔绝望的兄弟索要钱。

There is a lot of things I regret-- I should do differently.

有很多事情让我后悔——我应该采取不同的做法。

But my intention was very good.

但我的初衷是非常好的。

I'd never be a pirate in my life.

我这辈子绝对不会当海盗。

And if I did something stupid or something that some other person doesn't like, I'm sorry.

如果我做了一些愚蠢的事情或者其他人不喜欢的事情，我很抱歉。

But my intention was good.

但我的初衷是好的。

That's what I'm saying.

这就是我所说的。

And I don't know how to explain it other than that.

除此之外我不知道如何解释。

Somali pirates were once just Somali fishermen.

索马里海盗曾经只是索马里渔民。

But then in the '90s, during the Civil War, when there was no longer government, they watched foreign boats sail into their waters, scoop up their fish, and leave unpunished.

但到了 90 年代，在内战期间，政府不再存在，他们眼睁睁地看着外国船只驶入他们的水域，捞起他们的鱼，然后逍遥法外。

So they decided to do something about it.

所以他们决定对此做点什么。

Initially, the fishermen just wanted to scare the illegal boats away, but then some of them started charging those boats a fine.

起初，渔民只是想吓跑非法船只，但后来一些渔民开始向非法船只收取罚款。

Fines turned into ransoms, and Somali piracy was born.

罚款变成了赎金，索马里海盗由此诞生。

In a semi-lawless state like Somalia, without a functioning government, everything is up for rationalization.

在像索马里这样的半法治国家，没有一个正常运作的政府，一切都需要合理化。

One man's fine is another man's ransom.

一个人的罚款就是另一个人的赎金。

Or in Tiiceey's case, one man's airport fee is another man's extortion.

或者在蒂西的例子中，一个人的机场费是另一个人的勒索。

I think it's possible that Tiiceey sincerely believes he was doing the right thing.

我认为 Tiiceey 可能真诚地相信他正在做正确的事情。

I ran all this past a former US diplomat who worked in Somalia and has followed it closely for years.

我向一位在索马里工作的前美国外交官讲述了这一切，他多年来一直密切关注此事。

She didn't want me to use her name, but she dealt with Tiiceey when he was in Adado.

她不想让我使用她的名字，但当蒂西在阿达多时，她就和他打过交道。

And she's worked with lots of people in Somalia like Tiiceey-- people who've spent years in the US and then returned to work in Somalia.

她在索马里与很多像 Tiiceey 一样的人一起工作过，这些人在美国呆了多年，然后又回到索马里工作。

She says people like Tiiceey, who have lived outside Somalia for years, they often have a hard time when they return.

她说，像蒂西这样在索马里境外生活多年的人，回国后往往会遇到困难。

She called them in-between people.

她称他们为中间人。

They come of age living in the US, learn how the country runs here, and then they go back.

他们在美国长大，了解这个国家是如何运作的，然后再回去。

And they can't play the US game 100%, but they also can't play the Somali game 100%, and they get in trouble.

他们不能100%玩美国游戏，但他们也不能100%玩索马里游戏，他们就会遇到麻烦。

She said Tiiceey probably went to Himan and Heeb with the best of intentions, but she said, quote, "with no finances to support government functions in one of the most dangerous security situations anywhere in the world, Tiiceey and others have been drawn into that murky place, where they believe that they have no choice but to find accommodations with those who are engaged in corrupt or criminal practices.

她说，蒂西西可能是怀着最好的意图去希曼和希布的，但她引用她的话说，“在世界上最危险的安全局势之一中，由于没有财政支持政府职能，蒂西西和其他人被卷入了这个阴暗的地方，他们认为自己别无选择，只能与那些从事腐败或犯罪行为的人找到住处。

With their Western backgrounds, they can't claim that they don't understand what constitutes criminal behavior."

以他们的西方背景，他们不能声称自己不明白什么构成犯罪行为。”

She told me Tiiceey meddled in too many things he should have stayed out of.

她告诉我蒂西插手了太多他本不该插手的事情。

And he wasn't savvy enough to protect himself, to add layers of deniability, have someone else handle those phone negotiations, put some distance between himself and the criminals.

而且他不够精明，无法保护自己，无法增加否认的层数，无法让其他人处理电话谈判，也无法在自己和犯罪分子之间保持一定的距离。

Not that she was advocating these things for him or anyone else.

并不是说她在为他或其他任何人提倡这些事情。

And she wanted me to make clear that she does not condone piracy.

她希望我明确表示她不纵容盗版。

But that was her theory.

但这是她的理论。

I put this to Tiiceey.

我把这个交给Tiiceey。

He agreed that he should have protected himself better.

他同意他应该更好地保护自己。

That is what, basically, the moral of what happened to me.

基本上，这就是发生在我身上的事情的寓意。

So I learned my lesson, which is you have to protect yourself, whatever it takes.

所以我吸取了教训，那就是你必须保护自己，不惜一切代价。

Yes, I was.

是的，我是。

That's what I said, right?

我就是这么说的，对吗？

I said I was naive.

我说我太天真了。

I got carried away because I didn't think about the consequences.

我得意忘形是因为我没有考虑后果。

I thought we are in perfect world-- that everybody was helping.

我以为我们生活在一个完美的世界——每个人都在提供帮助。

So that's why, yeah, I was naive.

所以这就是为什么，是的，我很天真。

Tiiceey's case is on appeal right now.

Tiiceey 的案件目前正在上诉中。

The piracy charges were dropped for lack of evidence, but he was convicted of being involved in a criminal organization of pirates.

由于缺乏证据，海盗指控被撤销，但他被判参与海盗犯罪组织。

If he loses the appeal, he could spend the next six years in prison.

如果他上诉失败，他可能会在监狱里度过接下来的六年。

If he wins, he could get out in June.

如果他获胜，他可能会在六月出狱。

Once he's out, he says he'll go back to Minneapolis, take a pause, be with his kids.

他说一旦出去，他就会回到明尼阿波利斯，休息一下，和他的孩子们在一起。

But after that, he might return to Somalia and run for president.

但在那之后，他可能会返回索马里并竞选总统。

Dana Chivvis.

达纳·奇夫维斯.

She works on our program and on the Serial podcast.

她参与我们的节目和 Serial 播客。

Act Two, C.E.Yo-Ho-Ho.

第二幕，C.E.Yo-Ho-Ho。

So today, we've heard two stories about how, when you get close to pirates, people start thinking that you're one of them.

今天，我们听到了两个故事，讲述当你接近海盗时，人们如何开始认为你是他们中的一员。

That you're living by pirate rules.

你是按照海盗规则生活的。

And so we thought we would close today's program with this story of somebody who got involved with pirates and then went on to remake the rules.

因此，我们认为我们应该以这个故事来结束今天的节目，这个故事讲述的是一个参与海盗活动并随后重新制定规则的人的故事。

Remake the rules of piracy.

重新制定盗版规则。

Here's Stephanie Foo.

这是斯蒂芬妮·符。

So here's a fact I learned recently that I love.

这是我最近了解到的一个我喜欢的事实。

The most powerful pirate of all time was a woman.

有史以来最强大的海盗是一位女性。

Her name was Cheng I Sao

她的名字叫郑伊嫂

She makes the other pirates look like amateurs.

她让其他海盗看起来像业余爱好者。

She makes Blackbeard look like an amateur?

她让黑胡子看起来像个业余爱好者？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

She had way more money.

她有更多的钱。

She had a bigger fleet.

她拥有一支更大的舰队。

She pirated for longer.

她盗版的时间更长了。

And she was more successful.

而且她更加成功。

That's Laura Sook Duncombe, who wrote about Cheng I Sao in her book, Pirate Women, the Princesses, Prostitutes and Privateers Who Ruled the Seven Seas.

这就是劳拉·苏克·邓库姆 (Laura Sook Duncombe)，她在她的书《统治七大洋的海盗妇女、公主、妓女和私掠者》中写到了郑一嫂的故事。

Cheng I Sao was Chinese.

郑一嫂是中国人。

She was working on a floating brothel in the early 1800s when a pirate, Cheng I, proposed marriage to her.

1800 年代初，她在一家水上妓院工作，当时一名海盗程一向她求婚。

We don't know much about their love story, so this is a bit of legend.

他们的爱情故事我们了解不多，所以这有点传奇色彩。

But supposedly, at first Cheng I Sao turned him down and tried to claw his eyes out.

但据说，一开始郑一嫂拒绝了他，并试图把他的眼睛挖出来。

Then after some thought, she agreed that she would marry him but only if he would give her half of his fleet and his treasure.

经过深思熟虑，她同意嫁给他，但条件是他要把一半的舰队和财宝送给她。

And he went along with it.

他也同意了。

Cheng I Sao's husband was a pretty big deal already.

郑一嫂的老公已经是个大人物了。

But once they got married, the two of them got to work uniting warring pirate factions into one pirate monopoly.

但一旦结婚，两人就开始致力于将敌对的海盗派系联合起来，形成一个海盗垄断企业。

When her husband died, Cheng I Sao took over as leader of the pirate empire and grew it to the largest pirate fleet in history, which some members of our staff have insisted I mention is, apparently, a very Khaleesi move.

当她的丈夫去世后，郑一嫂接任海盗帝国的领导者，并将其发展成为历史上最大的海盗舰队，我们的一些工作人员坚持认为我提到的这显然是卡丽熙的举动。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't watch Game of Thrones.

我不看权力的游戏。

Anyway, Blackbeard had maybe four ships worth of pirates.

无论如何，黑胡子大概有四艘船的海盗。

But Cheng I Sao?

但郑一嫂呢？

Anywhere from 50,000 to 70,000 pirates with around 2,000 ships, all told.

总共有 50,000 到 70,000 名海盗和大约 2,000 艘船只。

Wow.

哇。

Laura Sook Duncombe So this is larger than many legitimate navies of the time period, certainly the Chinese Navy.

劳拉·苏克·邓科姆（Laura Sook Duncombe）因此，这比当时的许多合法海军（尤其是中国海军）还要大。

In just one year-- 1808-- they destroyed half of the Chinese Navy's entire fleet, 63 out of 135 ships.

仅仅一年（1808 年），他们就摧毁了中国海军整个舰队的一半，即 135 艘舰艇中的 63 艘。

Having 70,000 employees, that's as big as Exxon-Mobil.

拥有 70,000 名员工，相当于埃克森美孚公司的规模。

So Cheng I Sao ran it like a corporation.

所以郑一嫂像一家公司一样经营它。

She had offices onshore, where she managed her accounts.

她在岸上设有办事处，负责管理账户。

And she came up with a whole new way of making tons of money-- a protection racket, where salt ships and rich coastal cities paid regular taxes to the pirates.

她想出了一种赚大钱的全新方式——保护费，盐船和富裕的沿海城市向海盗定期缴税。

If you didn't pay, you got pillaged.

如果你不付钱，你就会被抢劫。

It was like the seafaring mafia.

这就像航海黑手党。

That was really kind of a Cheng I Sao innovation.

这确实是郑一嫂的创新。

One of her many.

她众多之一。

How old was she when she was doing all of this?

当她做这一切的时候她多大了？

I don't know what I'm doing with my life.

我不知道我这一生在做什么。

Another innovation of Cheng I Sao-- the rules on her ships.

郑一嫂的另一项创新——船上的规则。

We know about these from a book written at the time, in 1830.

我们从当时 1830 年写的一本书中了解了这些内容。

Most captains had rules on their ships, of course, but her punishments were particularly extreme.

当然，大多数船长在他们的船上都有规定，但她的惩罚尤其严厉。

For instance, rule number one, don't go AWOL.

例如，第一条规则是不要擅离职守。

So if anyone goes onshore without Cheng I Sao's permission, they get their ears slit.

因此，如果任何人未经郑一嫂允许而上岸，他们的耳朵就会被割断。

If they do it again, they're suffered death.

如果他们再这么做，他们就得死。

They're killed.

他们被杀了。

Rule number two, don't steal company treasure.

第二条规则，不要窃取公司财宝。

Each crew could keep 20% of the booty it plundered.

每个船员可以保留其掠夺战利品的20%。

The rest went into the company treasure hold.

其余的都进入了公司的宝库。

And the punishment for taking more?

拿多了会受到惩罚吗？

Again, death.

再次，死亡。

There's a pretty consistent theme here.

这里有一个非常一致的主题。

Lots of death.

很多死亡。

You disobey Cheng I Sao, death is in your future.

你不服从程一嫂，你的未来就是死亡。

But the most famous rule in her employee handbook is the one Laura thinks no other pirate had.

但她的员工手册中最著名的规则是劳拉认为其他海盗没有的一条。

They could not rape their female captives.

他们不能强奸女俘虏。

The punishment?

惩罚？

You guessed it-- death.

你猜对了——死亡。

Immediate death.

立即死亡。

Cheng I Sao ran this operation solo for three years.

郑一嫂独自经营这项业务三年。

She evaded Chinese authorities until finally China had lost so much money and so much control of its waters that they resorted to something they really hated doing.

她逃避了中国当局，直到中国最终失去了如此多的金钱和对其水域的控制权，以至于他们采取了他们真正讨厌做的事情。

They asked other countries for help.

他们向其他国家寻求帮助。

England and Portugal loaned the Chinese government ships.

英国和葡萄牙向中国政府租借了船只。

And with these ships, they come after her and trap her in a bay.

他们带着这些船只追赶她，并将她困在海湾里。

They finally have her where they want her.

他们终于把她带到了他们想要的地方。

So they have her surrounded.

所以他们把她包围了。

People from all over China-- government officials are coming to witness the end of this great pirate.

中国各地的人们——政府官员都来见证这个伟大海盗的终结。

There's no way she's getting out of this, and they're, you know, setting up lawn chairs on the deck, basically, to watch her defeat.

她不可能摆脱这一切，而他们，你知道，基本上是在甲板上搭起草坪椅，看她失败。

They fire on her for eight days, but they can't sink her.

他们向她开火了八天，但还是没能击沉她。

Finally, they send out fireboats-- flaming boats full of explosives-- to her fleet.

最后，他们向她的舰队派遣了消防船——装满炸药的燃烧的船只。

But then the wind changes.

但随后风向就变了。

The fireboats come right back towards the government ships and damage them instead.

消防船直接返回政府船只并损坏它们。

Cheng I Sao gets away.

郑一嫂逃脱。

But she decided she couldn't keep this up forever, so she went to Chinese leaders to negotiate a surrender.

但她决定不能永远这样下去，所以她去找中国领导人谈判投降。

She docked her ship and walked directly into the governor general's headquarters onshore.

她将船靠岸，直接走进了岸上的总督总部。

They're expecting pirate queen armed to the teeth with a full complement of burly bodyguards.

他们期待着全副武装的海盗女王和一整套魁梧的保镖。

She's this terrifying figure.

她是一个可怕的人物。

And in walks this 35-year-old woman with some wives and some children, and it must have taken them completely by surprise.

这位35岁的女人带着一些妻子和一些孩子走了进来，这一定让他们大吃一惊。

And I think it gave her the upper hand in the negotiations.

我认为这让她在谈判中占据了上风。

And she got an incredible deal that amounted to basically a retirement package for her and her employees.

她得到了一份令人难以置信的协议，基本上相当于她和她的员工的退休金。

She got to keep her plunder.

她必须保留她的掠夺物。

She secured pardons for almost all of her pirates.

她几乎所有的海盗都获得了赦免。

But she also secured government payouts for her and her pirates to transition into civilian life and spots for some of them in the Chinese Navy.

但她也为她和她的海盗们获得了政府补贴，以过渡到平民生活，并为其中一些人在中国海军中获得了席位。

As part of this, Cheng I Sao wrote a letter of surrender to the Chinese government.

作为其中的一部分，郑一嫂向中国政府写了一封投降信。

Laura read part of it for me.

劳拉给我读了其中的一部分。

"Originally, we were good people, but we became pirates for a variety of reasons.

“本来我们都是好人，但因为种种原因，我们变成了海盗。

Because some of us were not careful in making friends, we fell into a bad situation and became robbers.

由于我们有些人交友不小心，陷入了不好的境地，成了强盗。

Others of us were unable to secure a livelihood or were captured and forced into piracy.

我们中的其他人无法谋生，或者被抓获并被迫从事海盗活动。

Therefore, we violated the laws of the empire and destroyed the merchants.

因此，我们违反了帝国的法律，消灭了商人。

This was unavoidable."

这是不可避免的。”

I love how the-- I love, "this was unavoidable."

我喜欢“这是不可避免的”。

Yeah.

是的。

I would say it's almost sarcastic because it's clear she holds all the power and she does not need to do this.

我想说这几乎是讽刺，因为很明显她拥有所有权力，而她不需要这样做。

Laura says wherever there was piracy, there were women pirates.

劳拉说，哪里有海盗，哪里就有女海盗。

They span hundreds of years, across the globe.

它们跨越了数百年，遍布全球。

It was an unusually progressive workplace, you know, for the time.

你知道，当时这是一个异常进步的工作场所。

That's a funny thing about piracy.

关于盗版，这是一件有趣的事情。

You're not going to see-- a woman could not expect to rise to the ranks where they were competing with men and commanding men in most legitimate societies.

你不会看到——在大多数合法社会中，女性不可能指望上升到与男性竞争并指挥男性的地位。

And yet we see it over and over again in piracy that these women just excelled.

然而，我们一次又一次地看到这些女性在盗版中表现出色。

I like to think that the stakes were a little bit higher, if they had to go back on land, to be gentle ladies, sitting in parlors or doing whatever work was available to women of these time periods.

我认为，如果她们必须回到陆地上，成为温柔的女士，坐在客厅里，或者做当时女性可以做的任何工作，那么风险会更高一些。

They knew what was in store for them if they were unsuccessful, and so I think it just made them fight harder, work harder.

他们知道如果他们不成功，他们会面临什么，所以我认为这只会让他们更加努力地奋斗，更加努力地工作。

Ira Glass Stephanie Foo is one of the producers of our program.

Ira Glass Stephanie Foo 是我们节目的制作人之一。

[MUSIC - "THE PIRATE SHANTY" BY WORLDWIDE ADVENTURERS]

[音乐 - 全球冒险家的“海盗小屋”]

Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo.

图片来源：Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Stephanie Foo 制作。

Our staff includes Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Ben Calhoun, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Seth Lind, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.

我们的员工包括 Elna Baker、Susan Burton、Ben Calhoun、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Seth Lind、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。

Senior producer for our show is Brian Reed.

我们节目的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。

Mark Hanna, the historian that you heard at the top of the program, is the author of Pirate Nests and the Rise of the British Empire, 1570 to 1740.

马克·汉纳 (Mark Hanna)，您在节目顶部听到的历史学家，是《海盗巢穴和大英帝国的崛起，1570 年至 1740 年》一书的作者。

Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, he tells me all the time producers from the radio show keep calling him, calling him, always with the same message.

你知道，他告诉我广播节目的制作人一直不断地打电话给他，总是带着同样的信息。

We cannot work for this guy.

我们不能为这个人工作。

Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.

艾拉·格拉斯我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。