614: The Other Mr. President - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #614 | April 14, 2017 614: The Other Mr. President Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 614 集 | 2017 年 4 月 14 日 614：另一个总统先生 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Earlier this month, when the bomb went off in the St. Petersburg subway station, killing 14 people, Anna Nemtsova was in a cafe in Moscow.
序言 Ira Glass 本月早些时候，当炸弹在圣彼得堡地铁站爆炸并造成 14 人死亡时，安娜·涅姆佐娃 (Anna Nemtsova) 正在莫斯科的一家咖啡馆里。
She's a Russian reporter, currently a correspondent for The Daily Beast.
她是一名俄罗斯记者，目前是《野兽日报》的记者。
The bombing was blamed on a suicide bomber, a 22-year-old from Kyrgyzstan.
爆炸事件归咎于一名来自吉尔吉斯斯坦的 22 岁自杀式炸弹袭击者。
But in this cafe, Anna says, as soon as people saw the news on their phones--
但在这家咖啡馆里，安娜说，人们一看到手机上的新闻——
Minutes after the attack took place in St. Petersburg people were still in shock and the first thing that came up to their mind was that the government was blowing up St. Petersburg metro.
圣彼得堡袭击事件发生几分钟后，人们仍然处于震惊之中，他们首先想到的是政府正在炸毁圣彼得堡地铁。
Nobody else but the government.
除了政府，没有其他人。
That was a shocking conspiracy theory that they heard--
那是他们听到的令人震惊的阴谋论——
Right.
对。
So they have no evidence that that's true.
所以他们没有证据证明这是真的。
Zero.
零。
Absolutely zero evidence.
绝对零证据。
Yeah.
是的。
And they say they're doing this to distract our attention from their opposition rallies.
他们说他们这样做是为了分散我们对他们反对派集会的注意力。
She's talking about the opposition rallies that were just a week before the bombing-- the largest in years-- in dozens of cities across the country.
她谈论的是爆炸发生前一周在全国数十个城市举行的反对派集会，这是多年来规模最大的一次集会。
So people thought--
所以人们认为——
Now they're trying to distract our attention from the protests.
现在他们正试图转移我们对抗议活动的注意力。
The fact is, though, the 22-year-old suspect in the bombing really might have done it.
但事实是，爆炸案中的 22 岁嫌疑人确实可能干了这件事。
Investigators have released a still of him entering the subway, taken from video surveillance footage.
调查人员公布了从视频监控录像中拍摄的他进入地铁的剧照。
They said they have DNA evidence, too.
他们说他们也有 DNA 证据。
But no evidence so far linking him to ISIS or any other radical group.
但到目前为止，没有证据表明他与伊斯兰国或任何其他激进组织有联系。
And no group has claimed responsibility for the bombing.
目前还没有任何组织声称对这起爆炸事件负责。
But even if the government did produce definitive evidence, Anna says, people would take it with a huge grain of salt, given the general level of misinformation disseminated by the government all the time.
但安娜说，即使政府确实提供了确凿的证据，鉴于政府一直在传播错误信息，人们也会持怀疑态度。
Russian state TV right now says, for example, Syrian President Assad has nothing to do with the chemical attacks in his country.
例如，俄罗斯国家电视台现在表示，叙利亚总统阿萨德与该国的化学袭击无关。
And in the aftermath of the St. Petersburg bombing, all sorts of rumors and conspiracy theories started circulating in Russia.
圣彼得堡爆炸事件发生后，各种谣言和阴谋论开始在俄罗斯流传。
On state TV, Anna saw a pro-Kremlin commentator named Alexander Prokhanov peddling a theory that was the exact opposite of what people in the cafe thought.
在国家电视台上，安娜看到一位名叫亚历山大·普罗哈诺夫的亲克里姆林宫评论员兜售的理论与咖啡馆里人们的想法完全相反。
That theory?
那个理论？
This attack was plotted and performed by the same people who staged the anti-Putin protests in Moscow.
这次袭击的策划和实施者是在莫斯科举办反普京抗议活动的同一个人。
So in other words, he blamed the Russian opposition.
换句话说，他指责俄罗斯反对派。
He accuses them of blowing up a train with people in St. Petersburg.
他指控他们在圣彼得堡炸毁了一列载人的火车。
The day of the bombing, 500 journalists happened to be in St. Petersburg for a conference with Vladimir Putin.
爆炸发生当天，500 名记者恰好在圣彼得堡与弗拉基米尔·普京举行会议。
And lots of people said the timing was intentional, that the bomber wanted so many journalists there to cover the event and help the government foment fear about terrorism and distract from the protesters.
许多人表示，这个时机是故意的，炸弹袭击者希望有这么多记者在那里报道这一事件，帮助政府煽动对恐怖主义的恐惧，分散抗议者的注意力。
Or possibly the complete opposite.
或者可能完全相反。
The bomber wanted all those reporters to embarrass the government with lots of coverage of the atrocity.
炸弹袭击者希望所有记者对这一暴行进行大量报道，让政府难堪。
A Moscow cab driver told Anna the fringiest conspiracy theory she heard-- that the cops did it.
莫斯科的一名出租车司机告诉安娜她听到的最边缘的阴谋论——警察干的。
So the taxi driver was saying, uh-huh, the police blew up the train themselves to receive more money to fight terrorism in St. Petersburg and to receive epaulettes to be decorated.
所以出租车司机就说，呃呃，警察自己炸了火车，是为了得到更多的钱来圣彼得堡反恐，得到肩章来装饰。
I have to say, I find that theory even more depressing than the thought that the government would set the--
我不得不说，我发现这个理论比政府会设定的想法更令人沮丧——
It is extremely depressing.
这是非常令人沮丧的。
It is extremely depressing, and it is madness.
这是极其令人沮丧的，也是疯狂的。
It can drive you crazy.
它会让你发疯。
When you hear so many completely opposite theories and people jumping to conclusions without having any information, any evidence, the truth is dissolving.
当你听到这么多完全相反的理论并且人们在没有任何信息、任何证据的情况下就得出结论时，真相正在瓦解。
It's becoming more and more blurry.
它变得越来越模糊。
And it's not just Russians speculating about what happens in Russia.
不仅仅是俄罗斯人在猜测俄罗斯发生的事情。
We speculate, too.
我们也猜测。
Especially about Russia's leader, Vladimir Putin, who's either, you know, a man battling suicide bombers, or possibly a man who gave orders to blow up 14 innocent people to take everybody's mind off some protest marches.
尤其是俄罗斯领导人弗拉基米尔·普京，你知道，他要么是一个与自杀式炸弹袭击者作战的人，要么可能是一个下令炸死 14 名无辜者以转移人们对抗议游行的注意力的人。
There's a journalist named Keith Gessen, who was born in Russia and has written about it for years, who recently wrote, quote, "at no time in history have more people with less knowledge and greater outrage" speculated about Russia's president.
有一位名叫基思·格森（Keith Gessen）的记者，出生于俄罗斯，多年来一直撰写有关此事的文章，他最近写道，“历史上从未有过如此多的人缺乏知识和更大的愤怒”猜测俄罗斯总统。
Is he a political genius?
他是政治天才吗？
Is he a man just trying to get rich?
他是一个只想发财的人吗？
Is he a guy who wanted to be part of NATO and an ally to the West, who we spurned and now he's acting out of revenge?
他是一个想成为北约成员和西方盟友的人吗？我们曾经拒绝他，现在他却出于报复而行事？
Today on our program, we try to understand a little bit more about who Putin is and how he operates.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们试图更多地了解普京是谁以及他是如何行事的。
He's been in the news for months.
几个月来他一直出现在新闻中。
And I'll be frank.
我坦白说。
There are still some basic things about him and about Russia I went into this show feeling like I really did not understand, including-- I don't know if you've heard this one-- did he come to power in 1999 by first killing off a few hundred innocent Russians?
关于他和俄罗斯，还有一些基本的事情，我在看这部剧的时候感觉自己真的不明白，包括——我不知道你是否听说过这个——他是不是在 1999 年上台时首先屠杀了几百名无辜的俄罗斯人？
And do people think about that and talk about that in Russia today?
今天在俄罗斯人们会思考并谈论这一点吗？
That's going to be the first thing we take up.
这将是我们首先要做的事情。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us, comrades.
和我们在一起，同志们。
So have you heard this story?
那么你听过这个故事吗？
I just heard this for the first time recently.
我最近才第一次听说这个。
Long before this month's St. Petersburg bombing, there was another bombing that people speculated about.
早在本月的圣彼得堡爆炸事件发生之前，人们就曾猜测另一起爆炸事件。
And in that one, there actually was some evidence that raised real questions.
在那一份报告中，实际上有一些证据提出了真正的问题。
It happened right when Vladimir Putin was coming to power.
这件事发生在弗拉基米尔·普京(Vladimir Putin)上台之际。
This was back in 1999.
这已经是 1999 年的事情了。
Boris Yeltsin was president, running Russia.
鲍里斯·叶利钦担任总统，管理俄罗斯。
Putin was the prime minister.
普京担任总理。
Not well-known, not well-liked, polling at 2% as a possible presidential candidate.
知名度不高，不受欢迎，可能的总统候选人的民意支持率为 2%。
And then-- Putin had only been prime minister for a month-- there was a series of bombings of apartment buildings in Moscow and elsewhere.
然后——普京担任总理才一个月——莫斯科和其他地方发生了一系列公寓楼爆炸事件。
300 people died.
300人死亡。
Putin blamed it on Chechen rebels, invaded Chechnya, started the Second Chechen War, which he won.
普京将其归咎于车臣叛军，入侵车臣，发动了第二次车臣战争，并赢得了胜利。
It was a popular war.
这是一场人民战争。
Catapulted him into the presidency.
把他推上了总统宝座。
When he took office, he had 53% of the vote.
他上任时获得了53%的选票。
And even back then, when he took office in 2000, there was a question.
甚至在他 2000 年上任时，就存在一个问题。
Did he bomb those buildings himself to create the pretext for the war and his own rise to power?
他自己轰炸这些建筑物是否是为了为战争和他自己的掌权创造借口？
If he did, of course it calls the legitimacy of his presidency into question in a big way, murdering his own constituents-- exactly the kinds of Russians that he claims to be serving and protecting as president.
如果他这样做了，当然会在很大程度上质疑他总统任期的合法性，谋杀他自己的选民——正是他声称作为总统服务和保护的俄罗斯人。
One of our producers, Robyn Semien, talked to reporters who covered this and reviewed the evidence with them.
我们的制片人之一罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 与报道此事的记者进行了交谈，并与他们一起审查了证据。
Before we get to the more mysterious aspects of the bombings, a quick summary of what happened.
在我们了解爆炸事件更神秘的方面之前，先快速总结一下所发生的事情。
The bombings came in fast succession.
爆炸事件接二连三地发生。
Four bombs in two weeks in random locations in Moscow and two other cities.
两周内在莫斯科和另外两个城市的随机地点发生了四枚炸弹。
Early September was the first one.
九月初是第一个。
A bomb in a truck went off right outside an apartment building, collapsing it.
一辆卡车上的一枚炸弹在公寓楼外爆炸，导致公寓倒塌。
Over 60 people died.
超过60人死亡。
Days later, thousands of miles away, another bomb goes off on the ground floor of a nine story apartment building.
几天后，在数千英里之外，另一枚炸弹在一座九层公寓楼的底层爆炸。
Nine stories flattened, killing over 90 people.
九层楼被夷为平地，造成 90 多人死亡。
Within days, there was another one, and then a fourth.
几天之内，又出现了一个，然后是第四个。
Buildings destroyed in the night while people were inside, sleeping.
当人们在里面睡觉时，建筑物在夜间被毁。
David Satter was in and out of the country at the time.
大卫·萨特当时正在进出该国。
He's been reporting on Russia since the '70s.
自 70 年代以来，他一直在报道俄罗斯。
It was an atmosphere of panic.
那是一种恐慌的气氛。
The whole country was terrified.
整个国家都陷入了恐惧。
People began to fear that any apartment building could be blown up in the middle of the night and any family could be buried under the rubble.
人们开始担心任何公寓楼都可能在半夜被炸毁，任何家庭都可能被埋在废墟下。
There are 30,000 apartment blocks in Moscow, and night patrols were organized in all of them to prevent terrorists from putting bombs in the basements.
莫斯科有3万栋公寓楼，所有公寓楼都组织了夜间巡逻，防止恐怖分子在地下室放置炸弹。
The government immediately blamed the bombings on Chechen guerrillas.
政府立即将爆炸事件归咎于车臣游击队。
Scott Anderson is another reporter who's written about the attacks.
斯科特·安德森是另一位撰写有关袭击事件的记者。
Chechens tend to be more darkly complected than your typical ethnic Russians, so anyone who was darkly complected on the streets of Moscow was subject to arrest or being beaten up.
车臣人往往比典型的俄罗斯人更加阴暗，因此任何在莫斯科街头表现阴暗的人都会遭到逮捕或殴打。
And so a lot of people from the Caucasus, they would just stay inside.
所以很多来自高加索地区的人都会呆在里面。
They were afraid to go out in the streets.
他们害怕上街。
But this story that Chechens were behind the bombings was kind of fishy.
但关于车臣人是爆炸事件幕后黑手的说法有点可疑。
For starters, it was three years after Chechnya and Russia had finished a war-- the First Chechen War.
首先，距离车臣和俄罗斯结束一场战争——第一次车臣战争已经过去了三年。
Chechnya basically won.
车臣基本获胜。
They signed a peace treaty.
他们签署了和平条约。
Again, Scott.
再说一遍，斯科特。
What motive did the Chechens have to start this bombing campaign against Russia when they pretty much had everything they wanted?
当车臣人几乎拥有了他们想要的一切时，他们有什么动机开始针对俄罗斯的轰炸行动呢？
There was no reason to fight the Russians at this point.
此时没有理由与俄罗斯人作战。
Right.
正确的。
They'd won the war.
他们赢得了战争。
Scott Anderson That's right.
斯科特·安德森 没错。
They had won the war.
他们赢得了战争。
So why commit acts of terror that were big enough to start another war?
那么，为什么要实施规模大到足以引发另一场战争的恐怖行为呢？
And just logistically, it would have been hard to pull off.
仅从逻辑上来说，这很难实现。
Even in 1999, Russia was a very heavily policed state.
即使在 1999 年，俄罗斯也是一个治安非常严密的国家。
And so certainly by after the second or third bombing, there were police checkpoints certainly all over Moscow-- all over major Russian cities.
因此，在第二次或第三次爆炸之后，莫斯科各地——俄罗斯主要城市的各地肯定都设立了警察检查站。
So the idea of these bombers moving around-- and these are kind of crude explosives.
因此，这些轰炸机四处移动的想法是——这些是一种粗糙的炸药。
They're very heavy.
它们很重。
50-Kilo sacks of explosives you need to haul around, so you need a car.
您需要搬运 50 公斤的炸药袋，因此您需要一辆车。
So you're going through checkpoints.
所以你要通过检查站。
And with the whole hysteria against Chechens, certainly anybody who was, again, darkly complected, going through a checkpoint was going to be thoroughly searched.
由于针对车臣人的歇斯底里，任何一个再次阴暗地通过检查站的人肯定都会受到彻底搜查。
Even some people in the government questioned the official account.
甚至一些政府人士也对官方账号提出了质疑。
David Satter was in Moscow right after the bombings.
爆炸发生后，戴维·萨特 (David Satter) 就在莫斯科。
And a friend who had good connections told David there were people in the security services who suspected the FSB-- that's the modern version of the KGB, basically-- might be behind the bombings.
一位有良好关系的朋友告诉大卫，安全部门有人怀疑联邦安全局——基本上就是现代版的克格勃——可能是爆炸事件的幕后黑手。
So David asked to meet some of those guys in person.
因此大卫要求亲自会见其中一些人。
And they agreed.
他们同意了。
But this was such a dangerous idea, they wanted to make sure they weren't caught.
但这是一个非常危险的想法，他们想确保自己不被抓住。
So they had this very private conversation in a very public place-- in the center of Moscow.
所以他们在莫斯科市中心的一个非常公共的地方进行了这次非常私人的谈话。
I don't want to give away too many details--
我不想透露太多细节——
It's OK.
没关系。
David Satter --but it was in a store of some sort, in a building not far from the Bolshoi Theatre.
大卫·萨特——但它是在离莫斯科大剧院不远的一座建筑里的某种商店里。
And people coming and going, but we didn't give any indication what we were talking about.
人们来来往往，但我们没有给出任何迹象表明我们在谈论什么。
Just a couple of men standing there, talking about something.
只有几个男人站在那里，正在谈论着什么。
The agents didn't have proof, but some things just didn't add up.
特工们没有证据，但有些事情就是不成立。
For example, the simple fact that the buildings were blown up with hexogen, which is a very, very powerful explosive that's used to top off artillery shells and is available only in one factory in Russia, which is tightly guarded by the FSB.
例如，一个简单的事实是，建筑物是用海克斯金炸毁的，这是一种非常非常强大的炸药，用于装填炮弹，并且只有俄罗斯的一家工厂有这种炸药，而该工厂受到俄罗斯联邦安全局的严密看守。
It's also at military bases.
军事基地也有。
But how would terrorists get hexogen at all, the agent said, let alone drive big quantities of it around Russia unchecked?
但这名特工表示，恐怖分子如何获得海克斯金，更不用说在俄罗斯各地不受控制地运载大量海克斯金了？
When you heard this stuff, were you thinking these arguments were convincing, or were you also thinking...
当你听到这些东西的时候，你是否认为这些论点有说服力，或者你是否也在想……
well?
嗯？
I wasn't completely convinced that this was a government provocation.
我并不完全相信这是政府的挑衅。
But what convinced me was the bomb that did not go off, the fifth bomb.
但令我信服的是那枚没有爆炸的炸弹，即第五枚炸弹。
The fifth bomb in yet another city-- Ryazan.
第五枚炸弹发生在另一个城市——梁赞。
And this is where the story about the Chechens seems to really fall apart, and where the story gets truly strange.
这就是关于车臣人的故事似乎真正崩溃的地方，也是故事变得真正奇怪的地方。
September 22, 1999, 2 and 1/2 weeks after the first apartment bomb.
1999 年 9 月 22 日，第一起公寓爆炸事件发生后 2 又 1/2 周。
A couple of residents in a building in Ryazan noticed something weird.
梁赞一栋大楼里的几位居民注意到了一些奇怪的事情。
One guy, a bus driver who lived in the building, saw a car, a white sedan, parked outside the building.
住在这栋大楼里的一名公交车司机看到一辆汽车，一辆白色轿车，停在大楼外。
Maura Reynolds was a foreign correspondent for the LA Times back then, living in Moscow.
莫拉·雷诺兹当时是《洛杉矶时报》的驻外记者，住在莫斯科。
She talked to the guy, who told her the license plates on the car didn't look right.
她与那个人交谈，那个人告诉她车上的车牌看起来不对。
They had a local city code on them for Ryazan-- the number 62.
他们身上有梁赞当地的城市代码——数字 62。
But, he told Maura, when he looked closer, he saw that the number--
但是，他告诉莫拉，当他仔细观察时，他看到了这个数字——
It had been written on.
上面已经写着了。
It had been drawn on by hand.
它是用手画的。
It didn't look like it was stamped into the metal license plate.
它看起来不像是印在金属车牌上的。
Yeah.
是的。
Like a magic marker on a piece of paper taped over the license plate.
就像一张粘在车牌上的纸上的魔法记号笔。
Oh.
哦。
Maura Reynolds And that was immediately something that he thought, huh?
Maura Reynolds 他立刻就想到了这一点，是吗？
So he calls the police.
于是他报了警。
In the meantime, two men get out of the car.
与此同时，两名男子从车上下来。
And start carrying heavy sacks of something into the building's basement.
然后开始把沉重的东西搬进大楼的地下室。
The people jump back in the car.
众人跳回车里。
They take off.
他们起飞了。
That's Scott Anderson again.
又是斯科特·安德森。
The local police show up.
当地警察出现。
They went down into the basement and came running back up, saying, it's a bomb.
他们走进地下室，跑回来说，这是一枚炸弹。
It's a bomb.
这是一颗炸弹。
Ryazan is essentially sealed off within hours.
梁赞在数小时内基本上被封锁。
Thousands and thousands of soldiers and police cordon off the city, and they begin this massive dragnet for these two men and a woman who was the car, also.
成千上万的士兵和警察封锁了这座城市，他们开始对这两名男子和一名同样是汽车的女子展开巨大的拉网。
Local FSB start combing through evidence.
当地金融稳定委员会开始梳理证据。
A detonator was found in the basement.
在地下室发现了一个雷管。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Here's a TV news clip from then, from a documentary about the bombings called Disbelief.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 这是当时的电视新闻剪辑，摘自一部名为《Disbelief》的有关爆炸事件的纪录片。
The reporter says, "the sacks were discovered by police."
记者称，“这些麻袋是警方发现的”。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien The sacks were taken to a lab that concluded the contents were hexogen, the same explosive used to blow up the other buildings-- the stuff that supposedly only the FSB and military had access to.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 这些麻袋被带到一个实验室，得出的结论是里面的东西是海克斯基（hexogen），与炸毁其他建筑物所用的炸药相同——据说只有联邦安全局和军方才能接触到这种东西。
One day after the bomb scare, prime minister Vladimir Putin, who, remember, has only been in the job for a month, launches the Second War against Chechnya over the bombings.
炸弹恐慌发生后的一天，总理弗拉基米尔·普京（记得他上任才一个月）就因爆炸事件发动了针对车臣的第二次战争。
He says, quote, "the question is closed once and for all.
他说，“这个问题已经一劳永逸地解决了。
We will pursue the terrorists everywhere.
我们将到处追捕恐怖分子。
If they are in an airport, then in an airport.
如果他们在机场，那就在机场。
And forgive me, if we catch them in the crapper, then we'll rub them out in the crapper," unquote.
请原谅我，如果我们在垃圾中抓住它们，那么我们就会在垃圾中将它们擦掉，”未引述。
Meanwhile, back in Ryazan, local police find the mysterious white sedan and the two suspects.
与此同时，回到梁赞，当地警方找到了那辆神秘的白色轿车和两名嫌疑人。
They were not Chechen.
他们不是车臣人。
They were Russian.
他们是俄罗斯人。
Russian FSB agents with FSB IDs.
拥有 FSB ID 的俄罗斯 FSB 特工。
The head of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, goes on TV and is like, there's a totally reasonable explanation for FSB agents to be caught doing this.
联邦安全局局长尼古拉·帕特鲁舍夫在电视上表示，联邦安全局特工被发现这样做有一个完全合理的解释。
The whole thing was a drill.
整个事情就是一次演习。
This audio of that announcement is from a documentary about the bombings, called Blowing Up Russia.
该公告的音频来自一部有关爆炸事件的纪录片，名为《炸毁俄罗斯》。
First of all, there wasn't an explosion, and an explosion wasn't prevented.
首先，没有发生爆炸，也没有阻止爆炸。
But it wasn't good work.
但这并不是一件好事。
It was an exercise.
这是一次练习。
He goes in front of the cameras.
他走到摄像机前。
He makes this little statement.
他发表了这个小声明。
Again, Scott Anderson.
再次，斯科特·安德森。
Scott Anderson He doesn't take questions.
斯科特·安德森（Scott Anderson）他不回答问题。
He walks away.
他走开了。
It's just like, oh, yeah, that was just a military exercise.
就像，哦，是的，那只是一次军事演习。
As for the hexogen, there was no hexogen, he says.
至于 hexogen，他说根本就没有 hexogen。
There were no explosives.
没有爆炸物。
The white powder in the bags, he explains, was sugar.
他解释说，袋子里的白色粉末是糖。
Maura Reynolds talked to people who lived in the apartment building in Ryazan back then.
莫拉·雷诺兹与当时居住在梁赞公寓楼的人们进行了交谈。
She says people were angry, and they thought their own government had tried to kill them.
她说人们很愤怒，他们认为自己的政府试图杀死他们。
Though, of course, since this was Russia--
不过，当然，因为这里是俄罗斯——
They wouldn't say it quite that way.
他们不会这么说。
What they would say over and over again was in the form of a question.
他们一遍又一遍地以问题的形式说的话。
Whose interests were served by this?
这符合谁的利益？
Who had something to gain?
谁有收获？
It doesn't make sense, but who had something to gain?
这没有道理，但谁有收获呢？
Yeah.
是的。
Robyn Semien And what would people say?
Robyn Semien 人们会怎么说？
Who else?
还有谁？
The government.
政府。
But let me say that some weren't willing to go to say that out loud.
但我要说的是，有些人不愿意大声说出来。
They would say, who had something to gain?
他们会说，谁有所得？
And then there would be a pause and they would raise their eyebrows.
然后会有一个停顿，他们会扬起眉毛。
And I would say, who do you think?
我会说，你认为是谁？
And they'd say, who do you think?
他们会说，你认为是谁？
At the time, there was still something of a free press.
当时，新闻界还是有一定程度的自由。
People could speak out, and did.
人们可以畅所欲言，也确实这么做了。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien This is tape from a TV special on an independent channel, the NTV network, which has since been taken over by the state.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 这是独立频道 NTV 网络上的电视特别节目的磁带，该频道后来被国家接管。
The special is like a talk show, with a host, some FSB higher-ups, and people from the building, who are pretty mad.
这个特别节目就像一场脱口秀，有主持人、一些 FSB 高层，还有大楼里的人，他们都非常生气。
Again, this comes from the documentary Disbelief.
同样，这来自纪录片《难以置信》。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien He's saying, the people of Ryazan and many other towns just do not believe all these stories.
[俄语] Robyn Semien 他说，梁赞和许多其他城镇的人们并不相信所有这些故事。
I'm sitting here and just cannot believe the story the FSB is telling.
我坐在这里，简直不敢相信 FSB 讲述的故事。
I myself am a military officer.
我本人是一名军官。
I was a senior officer for 28 years.
我当了28年的高级军官。
I was in charge of countless exercises.
我负责了无数的练习。
What these generals are claiming about this so-called exercise, I just can't believe my ears.
这些将军对这次所谓的演习有何说法，我简直不敢相信自己的耳朵。
All of this unfolds very quickly.
所有这一切都展开得非常快。
Putin becomes prime minister in August.
普京于八月就任总理。
The bombings are in September.
爆炸发生在九月。
The war starts in September, also.
战争也从九月开始。
Putin is the public face of the war, and it's going well.
普京是这场战争的公众代言人，而且战争进展顺利。
This is when his popularity soars.
这是他的人气飙升的时候。
[TRUMPET MUSIC] And on New Year's Eve, at midnight, the president at the time, Boris Yeltsin, makes an announcement.
[喇叭音乐] 除夕夜，时任总统鲍里斯·叶利钦 (Boris Yeltsin) 宣布了一项声明。
Boris Yeltsin announces-- completes a shocking announcement that he's going to retire.
鲍里斯·叶利钦宣布——完成了一项令人震惊的宣布，他将退休。
He's going to resign the presidency, effective immediately.
他将辞去总统职务，立即生效。
He names Vladimir Putin acting president.
他任命弗拉基米尔·普京为代理总统。
Putin's very first act, his very first presidential decree, is to stop all corruption investigations into Boris Yeltsin.
普京的第一个行动，他的第一个总统令，就是停止对鲍里斯·叶利钦的所有腐败调查。
These investigations had been going on.
这些调查一直在进行。
The elections are supposed to be in June.
选举原定于六月举行。
Instead, he moves them up to March, which gives opposition parties very little time to organize.
相反，他将时间推迟到三月，这使得反对党几乎没有时间组织起来。
And then he wins the presidency outright in March.
然后他在三月份彻底赢得了总统职位。
So in this incredibly short period, about eight months, he goes from being a complete unknown to being the president of Russia.
因此，在这极短的时间内，大约八个月，他从一个完全无名的人变成了俄罗斯总统。
Maura Reynolds says when Ryazan happened, she saw it in local news reports, but it wasn't a huge story.
莫拉·雷诺兹说，梁赞事件发生时，她在当地新闻报道中看到了此事，但这并不是一个大新闻。
The FSB may or may not have planted explosives.
俄罗斯联邦安全局可能埋藏了炸药，也可能没有埋藏炸药。
It wasn't clear what it meant.
目前还不清楚这是什么意思。
And it was quickly drowned out by the invasion and the war.
它很快就被入侵和战争淹没了。
Only in retrospect did it start to seem significant.
只有回想起来，它才开始显得意义重大。
And in retrospect, there were other pieces of evidence that started to seem important.
回想起来，还有其他证据开始显得很重要。
I'll tell you one more.
我再告诉你一件事。
Right after one of the bombs went off in Moscow-- this was the third bomb-- the speaker of the Russian Parliament, a guy named Seleznyov, mentioned the bomb but got the city wrong.
其中一枚炸弹在莫斯科爆炸后（这是第三枚炸弹），俄罗斯议会议长谢列兹尼奥夫（Seleznyov）提到了这枚炸弹，但搞错了这座城市。
Mind you, he was in Moscow and the bomb was in Moscow.
请注意，他在莫斯科，炸弹也在莫斯科。
But he said the bomb went off in Volgodonsk.
但他说炸弹是在伏尔加顿斯克爆炸的。
Here's Scott Anderson.
请听斯科特·安德森的报道。
So you could say, oh, well, somehow he said Volgodonsk instead of Moscow, except that three days later, an apartment building in Volgodonsk was blown up.
所以你可以说，哦，好吧，不知怎的，他说的是伏尔加顿斯克而不是莫斯科，只不过三天后，伏尔加顿斯克的一座公寓楼被炸毁了。
Wow.
哇。
Scott Anderson Raising the question of how Seleznyov knew about the bombing three days ahead of time.
斯科特·安德森提出了谢列兹尼奥夫如何提前三天知道爆炸事件的问题。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien After the bomb finally did go off in Volgodonsk, another member of parliament, a guy named Zhirinovsky, confronts the speaker about how suspicious this looks.
[俄语] 罗宾·塞米恩 (Robyn Semien) 炸弹最终在伏尔加顿斯克爆炸后，另一位议员日里诺夫斯基 (Zhirinovsky) 质问发言人，称这件事看起来有多可疑。
He says, you told us on Monday that a building in Volgodonsk was blown up, three days before the explosion.
他说，你周一告诉我们，伏尔加顿斯克的一座建筑物被炸毁，爆炸发生三天前。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Robyn Semien Zhirinovsky calls the act monstrous and says he'll try to keep the speaker from being re-elected, but he's hard to hear because they keep cutting his microphone off.
[俄语] 罗宾·塞米恩·日里诺夫斯基 (Robyn Semien Zirinovsky) 称这种行为十分可怕，并表示他会尽力阻止演讲者再次当选，但他的讲话很难听清，因为他们不断切断他的麦克风。
Someone calls Zhirinovsky a scumbag, and then a scoundrel who deserves to be shot.
有人骂日里诺夫斯基是渣男，然后又骂他是活该枪毙的恶棍。
Finally, Zhirinovsky turns around, walks away, and gets hit in the back with a folder of papers.
最后，日里诺夫斯基转身走开，背部被一文件夹击中。
There was an official government investigation into the apartment bombings.
政府对公寓爆炸事件进行了正式调查。
Trials, convictions, all held in private, not open to the public or press.
审判、定罪全部秘密进行，不向公众或媒体开放。
People were convicted.
人们被定罪。
They were not FSB agents.
他们不是 FSB 特工。
They were not Chechens, either.
他们也不是车臣人。
There have been people outside the government who tried to look deeper into the bombings, but overall, that hasn't gone well.
政府外部有人试图更深入地调查爆炸事件，但总的来说，进展并不顺利。
Most notably, an independent commission of human rights activists, politicians, and investigators.
最值得注意的是，一个由人权活动家、政治家和调查人员组成的独立委员会。
Again, Scott.
再说一遍，斯科特。
The head of that commission was killed-- was murdered, shot to death in front of his house.
该委员会的负责人被杀——被谋杀，在他家门前被枪杀。
Another member of the committee died under mysterious circumstances.
委员会的另一名成员神秘死亡。
Anna Politkovskaya, investigative journalist, one of Russia's leading investigative journalists, was murdered in her apartment building.
调查记者安娜·波利特科夫斯卡娅（Anna Politkovskaya）是俄罗斯顶尖调查记者之一，在她的公寓楼内被谋杀。
She had written casting doubts on the apartment building bombings.
她曾写信对公寓楼爆炸事件表示怀疑。
And of course, Alexander Litvinenko came out publicly accusing the Putin regime of doing the apartment building bombings.
当然，亚历山大·利特维年科公开指责普京政权制造了公寓楼爆炸事件。
He is poisoned with polonium in London in 2006 and dies.
2006 年，他在伦敦中毒身亡。
Radioactive poison.
放射性毒物。
Polonium-210 slipped into his tea.
钋210 溜进了他的茶里。
A British investigation determined two FSB agents had killed Litvinenko, and that Putin had likely signed off on it.
英国的一项调查确定，两名俄罗斯联邦安全局特工杀害了利特维年科，普京很可能签署了这一决定。
In his autobiography, which came out in 2000, Putin roundly denied any FSB involvement in the bombings, writing, quote, "What?
普京在 2000 年出版的自传中断然否认 FSB 参与了爆炸事件，并写道：“什么？
Blowing up our own apartment buildings?
炸毁我们自己的公寓楼？
You know, that is really utter nonsense.
要知道，这根本就是无稽之谈。
It's totally insane.
这完全是疯了。
No one in the Russian special services would be capable of such a crime against his own people," unquote.
俄罗斯特种部队中没有人有能力对自己的人民犯下这样的罪行，”引述道。
David Satter has been researching this since it happened and has written two books about it.
自事件发生以来，大卫·萨特（David Satter）一直在研究这个问题，并写了两本书。
He's convinced the story went like this.
他确信故事是这样发展的。
Before the bombings, even before Putin came to power, Boris Yeltsin and his administration were plagued with corruption investigations.
在爆炸事件发生之前，甚至在普京上台之前，鲍里斯·叶利钦和他的政府就饱受腐败调查的困扰。
He worried they could eventually point to him and his family, especially if some other party or someone unsympathetic to him became president.
他担心他们最终可能会指向他和他的家人，特别是如果其他政党或不同情他的人成为总统的话。
So he looked to appoint a prime minister who he could trust.
因此他希望任命一位他可以信任的总理。
He fired two other guys in just three months before landing on Putin.
他在短短三个月内解雇了另外两名员工，然后才转向普京。
Then he and Putin together had the apartments blown up as the pretext to go to war, and, in the patriotic glow, to install Putin and quash the corruption investigations.
然后他和普京一起炸毁了这些公寓，以此为借口发动战争，并在爱国热情下让普京上台并撤销腐败调查。
Scott and Maura aren't so sure.
斯科特和莫拉不太确定。
For Maura, when it comes to the bombings, she gets that something was done by design and that it appears to be for political purposes.
对于莫拉来说，当谈到爆炸事件时，她知道有些事情是有意而为之的，而且似乎是出于政治目的。
But as for who was behind the bombings exactly, she can't tell.
但至于到底谁是爆炸事件的幕后黑手，她就说不出来了。
If you ask me what I think, I have to say, to this day, I do not know.
如果你问我怎么想，我不得不说，直到今天，我也不知道。
But this is what I would say.
但这就是我要说的。
Right now, it doesn't matter.
现在，没关系。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Maura Reynolds Because whether the government or people around Putin played a role or whether they didn't, the effect is the same.
毛拉·雷诺兹：因为无论普京身边的政府或人民发挥了作用，还是没有发挥作用，效果都是一样的。
Either you believe what they said about the bombings, that there were terrorists out to kill ordinary Russians, in which case you are frightened and the world is a very scary place; or you believe that your government or someone connected to the government could be bloody-minded enough to kill 300 innocent civilians in their beds, in which case the world is a very scary place and you should be frightened.
要么你相信他们关于爆炸事件的说法，相信有恐怖分子杀害普通俄罗斯人，在这种情况下你会感到害怕，世界是一个非常可怕的地方；或者你相信你的政府或与政府有联系的人可能会血腥到杀死300名躺在床上的无辜平民，在这种情况下，世界是一个非常可怕的地方，你应该感到害怕。
This is how it works in a police state.
这就是警察国家的运作方式。
You should be frightened.
你应该感到害怕。
And that's how the government exercises control.
这就是政府实施控制的方式。
It's been nearly two decades since the bombings and I wanted to know what do people in Russia think about them?
爆炸事件已经过去近二十年了，我想知道俄罗斯人民对此有何看法？
Putin is still their president.
普京仍然是他们的总统。
How big a deal are they?
他们有多大的事？
Are people walking around, wondering if their president came to power by killing hundreds of Russian citizens?
人们是否四处走动，想知道他们的总统是否是通过杀害数百名俄罗斯公民上台的？
So I interviewed four people who live in Moscow.
所以我采访了四个住在莫斯科的人。
None of them said they were big supporters of Putin.
他们中没有人表示自己是普京的坚定支持者。
Three of the four had heard the rumor that he was behind the bombings.
四人中的三人听说过他是爆炸事件幕后黑手的传言。
None of them believed it or wanted to believe it.
他们没有人相信或不愿意相信。
"I can't know the truth, so I can't say," a 42-year-old screenwriter told me.
“我不知道真相，所以我不能说，”一位 42 岁的编剧告诉我。
A 22-year-old student I talked to said she didn't want to know if it was true.
我采访过的一位 22 岁的学生说她不想知道这是否属实。
As for Ryazan, only one of the four, a telecommunications specialist, had heard anything about Ryazan, the sacks of sugar, any of that.
至于梁赞，四人中只有一位是电信专家，听说过有关梁赞的任何事情，比如一袋袋糖，诸如此类的事情。
He knew all the details, though.
不过，他知道所有的细节。
Read a book about it.
读一本关于它的书。
And he believes Ryazan was an FSB drill.
他认为梁赞是联邦安全局的一次演习。
The one person who'd never heard the story that Putin might be behind the bombings was Yuliya, a 40-year-old lawyer.
40 岁的律师尤利亚 (Yuliya) 从未听说过普京可能是爆炸事件的幕后黑手。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Interpreter It's just not something that people discuss.
[说俄语] 翻译 这不是人们讨论的事情。
The media doesn't say anything about it.
媒体对此只字不提。
The families don't talk to each other about this.
家人互相不谈论这件事。
And friends don't talk about this to each other.
而且朋友之间也不会谈论这个。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Interpreter Yes, absolutely.
[俄语] 翻译 是的，绝对如此。
So I ran through all the facts with her, all the evidence that Putin might be behind the bombings.
所以我和她一起了解了所有事实，所有证据表明普京可能是爆炸事件的幕后黑手。
She said she didn't care.
她说她不在乎。
Does it sound like a ridiculous theory, I asked.
我问，这听起来是不是一个荒谬的理论？
Yes, she said.
是的，她说。
Most likely.
最有可能的。
Some ridiculous theory.
一些荒谬的理论。
Robyn Semien.
罗宾·塞米恩.
Act Two: Mr. Popular Ira Glass Act Two, Mr. Popular.
第二幕：受欢迎的艾拉·格拉斯先生 第二幕，受欢迎的先生。
So here in the United States, we're told that Vladimir Putin is incredibly popular in Russia, and the statistic you see sometimes in the press is that he has an 84% approval rating among Russians, which, of course, is insanely high.
因此，在美国，我们得知弗拉基米尔·普京在俄罗斯非常受欢迎，你有时在媒体上看到的统计数据是，他在俄罗斯人中的支持率高达 84%，这当然是高得离谱。
We think US presidents are doing great when they get to 55% or 60%.
我们认为，当美国总统达到 55% 或 60% 时，他们就做得很好了。
But that 84%, is that real?
但这84%是真的吗？
Is that just from some Russian state agency that is controlled by Putin?
这只是普京控制的某个俄罗斯国家机构的声音吗？
Well, we asked Charles Maynes to look into this for us.
好吧，我们请查尔斯·梅恩斯帮我们调查这个问题。
He's an American radio producer based in Moscow.
他是一位驻莫斯科的美国广播制作人。
Well, it is real.
嗯，这是真的。
These are real polls, where large numbers of real people really do answer questions.
这些都是真实的民意调查，大量真实的人确实回答了问题。
Russia has two big polling firms that are essentially state-sponsored and one that's independent.
俄罗斯有两家大型民意调查公司，一家基本上是国家资助的，另一家是独立的。
And all three of these get basically the same numbers.
所有这三个人的数字基本相同。
This month, Putin dropped by 2% to 82%.
本月，普京的支持率下降了 2%，至 82%。
And American pollsters like Gallup and Pew, they also get the same results.
盖洛普和皮尤等美国民意调查机构也得到了相同的结果。
In the 80s?
80年代？
Charles Maynes Yeah, in the 80s.
查尔斯·梅恩斯 是的，在 80 年代。
But are people just saying that they like Putin because they are scared to say anything else?
但人们只是因为害怕说出其他话而说他们喜欢普京吗？
Well, that's part of it, especially with older people.
嗯，这就是其中的一部分，尤其是对于老年人。
There was a poll done by this Levada Center-- this is the independent pollster in Russia-- saying that 26% of all respondents said they're afraid to share their views of the government with pollsters.
列瓦达中心（俄罗斯的独立民意调查机构）进行的一项民意调查显示，26％的受访者表示他们害怕与民意调查机构分享他们对政府的看法。
So that probably inflates the number, but just how much isn't really clear.
所以这可能会夸大这个数字，但具体有多少还不清楚。
So if 82% isn't the right number, do we have any sense of what a more accurate measure of his popularity might be?
那么，如果 82% 不是正确的数字，我们是否知道更准确地衡量他的受欢迎程度的标准是什么？
Some pollsters say it's the so-called electoral rating.
一些民意调查机构称这就是所谓的选举评级。
This is when you ask Russians who they'd actually vote for.
这是当你问俄罗斯人他们实际上会投票给谁时。
Like The Levada Center has this poll they do where they say, if the presidential elections were held next Sunday, who would you vote for?
就像列瓦达中心所做的民意调查一样，他们说，如果下周日举行总统选举，你会投票给谁？
And then only 55% say they'd vote for Putin.
然后只有 55% 的人表示他们会投票给普京。
And that's, again, the independent pollsters.
这又是独立民意调查机构。
The state one has a figure that's a little higher-- 64%-- but that's hardly the 82%, 84% that we've seen.
州政府的数字稍高一些——64%——但这远不是我们看到的 82%、84%。
So what I get from this is, take the 82%, 84% approval rating with a grain of salt, but it is true that most people approve of him?
所以我从中得出的结论是，对82%、84%的支持率持保留态度，但大多数人真的认可他吗？
OK.
好的。
So to hear what that approval is all about and what people think of him, we asked you to talk to some people who like him, which you did.
因此，为了了解这种认可的意义以及人们对他的看法，我们请您与一些喜欢他的人交谈，您也这样做了。
People across the country.
全国人民。
And then you put together this story about one of them.
然后你把关于其中一个人的故事放在一起。
This was someone I knew wouldn't exaggerate their feelings about the president because they were talking to a foreign reporter, someone I've known for decades.
我知道这个人不会夸大他们对总统的感情，因为他们正在与一位外国记者交谈，而这位记者是我认识了几十年的人。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes That's her talking here, Olga Sergeevna Dmitrieva.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 这是她在讲话，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜·德米特里耶娃。
I lived with Olga Sergeevna and her two children back in the mid-'90s, when I was an exchange student in Moscow.
上世纪 90 年代中期，我和奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜 (Olga Sergeevna) 以及她的两个孩子住在一起，当时我是莫斯科的交换生。
It was a good five years before Putin arrived on the scene.
距离普京上台已经过去了整整五年。
Over the years, she took in several American exchange students.
多年来，她收留了多名美国交换生。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes That's her telling me I was her favorite.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 她告诉我我是她的最爱。
And I tell her I always say I have a Russian mom.
我告诉她我总是说我有一个俄罗斯妈妈。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes She says, I always say I have an American son, who I don't see as much as I like.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 她说，我总是说我有一个美国儿子，但我并不像我喜欢的那样经常见到他。
We took the tram to her apartment building through the neighborhood I lived in with her family back in the '90s, and she started pointing out all these changes.
我们乘电车穿过我和她家人在 90 年代居住的社区来到她的公寓楼，她开始指出所有这些变化。
A new playground, new stores.
新的游乐场，新的商店。
And just by the new museum, they're building a community pool.
就在新博物馆旁边，他们正在建造一个社区游泳池。
Now, none of this was here back when I lived with them.
现在，当我和他们住在一起时，这些都没有了。
It's all part of the prosperity that's come to Moscow since Putin came to power.
这都是普京上台以来莫斯科繁荣的一部分。
And it's why Olga Sergeevna and lots of people in her generation-- she's in her 60s-- it's why they love Putin.
这就是为什么奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜和她这一代的很多人——她已经60多岁了——这就是为什么他们喜欢普京。
When I lived with Olga Sergeevna and her family, Boris Yeltsin was president and things in Russia were really, really tough.
当我与奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜（Olga Sergeevna）和她的家人住在一起时，鲍里斯·叶利钦（Boris Yeltsin）担任总统，俄罗斯的情况非常非常艰难。
In fact, there's a poll for that.
事实上，有一个民意调查。
It says 68% of Russians think nothing good happened in Russia during the Yeltsin years.
报告称，68%的俄罗斯人认为叶利钦执政期间俄罗斯没有发生任何好事。
Nothing.
没有什么。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Olga Sergeevna says life was hard back then.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯·奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜 (Charles Maynes Olga Sergeevna) 说，当时的生活很艰难。
People didn't have enough money.
人们没有足够的钱。
Grocery stores were empty.
杂货店空无一人。
And they only began to clear with the arrival of Vladimir Putin.
随着弗拉基米尔·普京的到来，这些问题才开始变得清晰。
It seems almost hard to remember now, but when Putin first arrived as prime minister in 1999, Russians had no idea who he was.
现在看来几乎很难记住，当普京 1999 年首次就任总理时，俄罗斯人根本不知道他是谁。
He was this awkward public speaker back then.
那时他是一位尴尬的公共演讲者。
His suits were ill-fitting.
他的西装不合身。
The guy never smiled.
那家伙从来没有笑过。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Hardly, says Olga Sergeevna, the specimen she sees now.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 几乎没有，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜说，她现在看到的标本。
She told me Putin's appearance was predicted earlier, when mystics said one day a man named Volodya would save Russia.
她告诉我普京的出现早在早些时候就已被预言，当时神秘主义者说有一天一位名叫沃洛佳的人将拯救俄罗斯。
Volodya is short for Vladimir.
沃洛迪亚是弗拉基米尔的缩写。
Lots of the older generation will tell you stuff like this.
很多老一辈人都会告诉你这样的事情。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Nobody thought that savior would be Putin.
[俄语]查尔斯·梅恩斯 没有人认为普京会是救世主。
I mean, let's face it, she says.
我的意思是，让我们面对现实吧，她说。
He's kind of short.
他有点矮。
No one believed he'd change Russia.
没有人相信他会改变俄罗斯。
That Russia would rise from its knees.
俄罗斯将会重新站起来。
But it did rise from its knees.
但它确实从膝盖上站了起来。
His predecessor, Boris Yeltsin, was seen as this buffoon, visibly drunk in meetings with world leaders.
他的前任鲍里斯·叶利钦被视为小丑，在与世界领导人的会晤中明显喝醉了。
An embarrassment.
尴尬。
Putin was younger.
普京更年轻。
He didn't drink.
他没有喝酒。
The fact that he was a former KGB agent at least meant he was disciplined and educated.
他曾是克格勃特工，这一事实至少意味着他受过纪律和教育。
He spoke German, practiced judo.
他说德语，练习柔道。
And he brought an end to the chaos of the Yeltsin years, during which the ruble had collapsed several times.
他结束了叶利钦时代的混乱，在此期间卢布曾多次崩溃。
The government was constantly reshuffled.
政府不断改组。
And a few insiders, the so-called oligarchs, became billionaires while most everyone else lost their savings.
一些内部人士，即所谓的寡头，成为了亿万富翁，而大多数其他人则失去了积蓄。
But as soon as Putin took over, the economy boomed, mostly because of oil prices shooting up.
但普京一上任，经济就蓬勃发展，这主要是因为油价上涨。
And soon he exiled or arrested oligarchs who'd been running the country behind the scenes.
很快他就流放或逮捕了幕后操纵国家的寡头。
A lot of people talk about how Putin saved Russia.
很多人都在谈论普京如何拯救了俄罗斯。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes If you compare 1994 and 2017, Olga Sergeevna says, the difference is night and day.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 (Charles Maynes) 奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜 (Olga Sergeevna) 表示，如果比较 1994 年和 2017 年，就会发现区别在于白天和黑夜。
In 1994, '95, we didn't celebrate holidays.
1994年、95年，我们没有庆祝节日。
Nobody was in a festive mood.
没有人处于节日气氛中。
The theaters were all closed because nobody went.
剧院都关门了，因为没人去。
Nobody had money.
没有人有钱。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Under Putin, she says, she lives a comfortable life, has a job, can afford to travel, can go out to eat or to the theater.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 (Charles Maynes) 说，在普京的领导下，她过着舒适的生活，有工作，能负担得起旅行的费用，可以出去吃饭或去剧院。
It's hard to overstate how important this is.
很难夸大这一点的重要性。
During Putin's first decade in power, Russians had never lived better, particularly in the bigger cities.
在普京执政的第一个十年里，俄罗斯人的生活从未如此美好，尤其是在大城市。
People like Olga Sergeevna became part of something that was happening for the first time ever in Russia-- the emergence of the middle class.
像奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜这样的人成为了俄罗斯有史以来第一次发生的事情的一部分——中产阶级的出现。
Over time, this economic miracle turned Putin into sort of a folk hero.
随着时间的推移，这一经济奇迹使普京成为了民间英雄。
There's the side of him we know in America, the guy flying jets or riding horses shirtless.
这是我们在美国所熟知的他的一面，那个开着喷气式飞机或光着膀子骑马的人。
But in Russia, he's cultivated this image that he's frugal, lives modestly, works all the time.
但在俄罗斯，他树立了这样的形象：节俭、生活简朴、一直工作。
A political analyst told me Putin's seen as the only one who can fix anything or improve people's lives, the one who keeps corrupt bureaucrats in check.
一位政治分析人士告诉我，普京被视为唯一能够解决任何问题或改善人们生活的人，也是唯一能够控制腐败官僚的人。
He's the good czar.
他是好沙皇。
For Olga Sergeevna, it wasn't just that Putin made the country better.
对于奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜来说，普京不仅仅让这个国家变得更好。
It was that he could do no wrong.
他不能做错事。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Because he's smart, intelligent, cultured, athletic, she says.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 因为他聪明、聪明、有文化、运动能力强，她说。
He's even a musician, plays and sings.
他甚至是一位音乐家，会演奏和唱歌。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 [俄语]
I asked her if there's anything he can't do.
我问她有什么是他不能做的吗？
Her response?
她的反应？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes He can't cook.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 他不会做饭。
But he doesn't need to.
但他不需要。
Finally, I said, come on.
最后我说，来吧。
Isn't there anything you don't like about him?
难道你就没有什么不喜欢他的地方吗？
Anything at all?
有什么吗？
Nyet.
还没有。
Nyet.
还没有。
Nyet.
还没有。
Nyet!
不！
No!
不！
Charles Maynes While we were talking, Olga Sergeevna brought me over to her computer, started scrolling through her Facebook page.
查尔斯·梅恩斯 当我们谈话时，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜把我带到她的电脑前，开始浏览她的 Facebook 页面。
She subscribes to a Putin feed just to see what he's up to.
她订阅普京的动态只是为了看看他在做什么。
And her feed is filled with pictures of him.
她的动态里充满了他的照片。
Putin snarling.
普京咆哮。
Putin laughing.
普京大笑。
Doesn't he look like a benevolent lord, she says.
她说，他看起来不像一位仁慈的领主吗？
I just want to point out here that Olga Sergeevna doesn't work for the government or Putin's United Russia party.
我只想在这里指出，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜并不为政府或普京的统一俄罗斯党工作。
She's an accountant.
她是一名会计师。
She has been for decades.
她已经这样几十年了。
With a daughter who lives in London and a son who works for an American tech company.
有一个住在伦敦的女儿和一个在一家美国科技公司工作的儿子。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes One of the things Olga Sergeevna likes best is that Putin stands up to the West.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 奥尔加·谢尔盖耶芙娜最喜欢的事情之一就是普京勇敢地面对西方。
And that's a big thing for Russians.
这对俄罗斯人来说是一件大事。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes As Putin likes to say, when they curse me in the West, it means I'm doing the right thing.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 正如普京喜欢说的，当他们在西方咒骂我时，这意味着我正在做正确的事。
When it comes to the bad things Americans hear about Putin-- that he's corrupt, that he's secretly one of the world's richest men, or that he's meddled in the American elections-- Olga Sergeevna says that's all lies perpetuated by Western journalists.
当谈到美国人听到的关于普京的坏话时——比如他腐败，他秘密地是世界上最富有的人之一，或者他干预美国选举——奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜说，这都是西方记者编造的谎言。
People like me.
像我这样的人。
A reminder that we have this ongoing joke, where she tells me to leave our Putin alone, and she says she means it.
提醒我们，我们有一个持续不断的笑话，她告诉我别打扰我们的普京，她说她是认真的。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes I ask her about the many opponents of Putin's who've ended up dead.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 我问她普京的许多反对者最终都死了。
The journalist Anna Politkovskaya or Alexander Litvinenko, the KGB whistleblower who was poisoned with a radioactive isotope.
记者安娜·波利特科夫斯卡娅（Anna Politkovskaya）或亚历山大·利特维年科（Alexander Litvinenko），克格勃举报人，因放射性同位素中毒。
Who poisoned him, she asks.
谁给他下了毒，她问道。
Some say it was Putin, I tell her.
我告诉她，有人说是普京。
Oh, please.
哦，拜托。
Everyone says it's Putin.
大家都说是普京。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes The moment somebody sneezes or farts in Russia, Putin is to blame.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 在俄罗斯，只要有人打喷嚏或放屁，普京就应该受到指责。
I say, but what about the opposition leader Boris Nemtsov?
我说，但是反对党领袖鲍里斯·涅姆佐夫呢？
He was killed.
他被杀了。
But she interrupts me and says--
但她打断了我的话——
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Charles Maynes Nothing of the sort.
[俄语] 查尔斯·梅恩斯 (Charles Maynes) 并非如此。
Nothing of the sort.
根本不是这样的。
There was an investigation.
有一项调查。
Nemtsov died over a love triangle.
涅姆佐夫死于三角恋。
She doesn't buy any of it.
她什么都不买。
In fact, a lot of Olga Sergeevna's opinions are things you might hear on state TV.
事实上，奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜的很多观点都是你可能在国家电视台上听到的。
But I think with Olga Sergeevna, and the other people I talk to-- people who love Putin-- the moments I understand them best are when they talk about the past, everything they went through before Putin arrived.
但我认为，对于奥尔加·谢尔盖耶夫娜，以及与我交谈过的其他人——那些热爱普京的人——我最了解他们的时刻是当他们谈论过去、谈论普京到来之前他们所经历的一切时。
It's why sometimes I think the real reason people like Putin is not because they believe he'll keep moving Russia forward into the future.
这就是为什么有时我认为人们喜欢普京的真正原因并不是因为他们相信他会继续推动俄罗斯走向未来。
It's because they fear someone else-- anyone else-- might drive Russia back to the past.
这是因为他们担心其他人——任何其他人——可能会让俄罗斯回到过去。
Charles Maynes in Moscow.
查尔斯·梅恩斯在莫斯科。
Coming up, the Steve Bannon of the Kremlin, except he accomplishes all kinds of stuff and is not on the verge of losing his job.
即将到来的是克里姆林宫的史蒂夫·班农，只不过他完成了各种事情并且没有处于失业的边缘。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, The Other Mr. President, stories of Vladimir Putin and those around him.
今天的节目《另一个总统先生》讲述了弗拉基米尔·普京和他周围人的故事。
We've arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, Maybe Pay a Little Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain.
第三幕，也许稍微注意一下幕后的人。
There's a quote that we heard while we were working on today's program from a writer named Peter Pomerantsev.
我们在制作今天的节目时听到了一位名叫彼得·波梅兰采夫（Peter Pomerantsev）的作家的一句话。
He said that if the old Soviet Union was 75% violence, 25% propaganda, in today's Russia, those numbers are reversed.
他说，如果说前苏联75%是暴力，25%是宣传，那么在今天的俄罗斯，这些数字正好相反。
It's 25% violence and 75% propaganda.
25% 是暴力，75% 是宣传。
Propaganda was radically reinvented under Vladimir Putin, its tactics and its methods, by this one political operative.
在弗拉基米尔·普京（Vladimir Putin）的领导下，这位政治人物对宣传、其策略和方法进行了彻底的改造。
Sean Cole explains.
肖恩·科尔解释道。
The operative's name is Vladislav Surkov.
该特工的名字是弗拉迪斯拉夫·苏尔科夫。
He was Putin's deputy chief for more than a decade, starting in 1999.
从1999年开始，他担任普京的副首席官十多年。
In Russia, he's what's referred to as a political technologist.
在俄罗斯，他被称为政治技术专家。
But those are a dime a dozen.
但这些都是一毛钱一打。
At the top of his powers, Surkov had a much more ominous, if unofficial, title.
在他权力的顶峰，苏尔科夫有一个更不祥的头衔，尽管是非官方的。
He was known as a grey cardinal.
他被称为灰红衣主教。
He doesn't look like a shadowy mastermind.
他看起来不像是一个阴暗的主谋。
He sort of resembles Rowan Atkinson, the actor who played Mr. Bean, except handsomer.
他有点像扮演憨豆先生的演员罗温·阿特金森，只是更帅。
And he actually doesn't manage propaganda at the Kremlin anymore.
事实上，他不再负责克里姆林宫的宣传工作。
But the methods he invented to manipulate people and information, I've even heard them called artistic.
但他发明的操纵人和信息的方法，我什至听说它们被称为艺术。
See, in the Soviet era, the country was run by the Communist Party and the propagandists pumped out literally the party line and tried to suppress all other opposing messages.
你看，在苏联时代，这个国家是由共产党统治的，宣传人员逐字逐句地宣扬党的路线，并试图压制所有其他反对的信息。
And then the Iron Curtain fell.
然后铁幕落下。
A whole bunch of new political parties were created.
一大堆新的政党诞生了。
And it was the messy early stages of a real democracy, with parties bickering and vying for power.
那是真正民主的混乱的早期阶段，各党派争吵、争夺权力。
And then, when Putin became president-- I'm obviously skipping over a lot here-- his right-hand man, Surkov, helped solidify the Kremlin's power by putting together this party called United Russia, which gained a majority in Parliament and backed Putin.
然后，当普京成为总统时——我显然在这里跳过了很多东西——他的得力助手苏尔科夫通过组建一个名为统一俄罗斯党的政党来帮助巩固克里姆林宫的权力，该党在议会中获得了多数席位并支持普京。
And then, instead of tamping down the opposition like the old days, Surkov built a new system, where there was opposition, but he dictated what the opposition stood for.
然后，苏尔科夫没有像以前那样镇压反对派，而是建立了一个新的体系，其中存在反对派，但他规定了反对派的立场。
You do not allow political parties to create their own agendas.
你不允许政党制定自己的议程。
You just write these agendas for them.
您只需为他们编写这些议程即可。
This is Vasily Gatov.
这是瓦西里·加托夫。
He's been a very high-level player in Russian media for nearly 20 years.
近20年来，他一直是俄罗斯媒体中非常高水平的人物。
These days, he's a visiting fellow at the Annenberg Center on Communication, Leadership, and Policy.
如今，他是安纳伯格沟通、领导力和政策中心的访问学者。
We decide one of our parties is left party with some sort of communism.
我们决定我们的一个政党是某种共产主义的左翼政党。
Another party, you're a socialist.
另一个政党，你是社会主义者。
And the third party is a deep conservative, kind of evangelicals.
第三个政党是一个非常保守的福音派人士。
And the fourth party would be liberal radicals.
第四党将是自由激进分子。
And that's what Surkov actually constructed.
这就是苏尔科夫实际构建的。
And he created whole new political parties and wrote their agendas.
他创建了全新的政党并制定了他们的议程。
For example, he created a party called Spravedlivaya Rossiya.
例如，他创建了一个名为“Spravedlivaya Rossiya”的政党。
Just Russia.
只有俄罗斯。
Just Russia.
只有俄罗斯。
Vasily Gatov Yeah.
瓦西里·加托夫 是的。
That was a political cadaver.
那是一具政治尸体。
Cadaver, like a cadaver.
尸体，就像尸体一样。
Sean Cole Like Frankenstein.
肖恩·科尔就像弗兰肯斯坦。
Created from some sort of pieces of socialists, labor, activists, more pro-government type of labor unions.
由社会主义者、劳工、活动家、更亲政府类型的工会组成。
He also decided that he cannot allow any grassroot activities which would not be vetted by the Kremlin, so he decided that he will create also youth movements and write an agenda for them.
他还决定，他不能允许任何未经克里姆林宫审查的草根活动，因此他决定创建青年运动并为其制定议程。
And he also tried to do the same thing with NGOs, like political NGOs or those that control elections' transparency or expose corruption-- writing agendas for every one of them in the Kremlin.
他还试图对非政府组织做同样的事情，比如政治非政府组织或那些控制选举透明度或揭露腐败的组织——为克里姆林宫的每个组织制定议程。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I would even provide you with a very funny hypothesis.
我什至会给你提供一个非常有趣的假设。
In 2001, I think, Russia has been invaded by reality shows, things like Survivor, Big Brother.
我认为 2001 年，俄罗斯已经被真人秀节目入侵，比如《幸存者》、《老大哥》。
And he was amazed how scripting can improve even those likely spontaneous interactions between people.
他感到惊讶的是，脚本甚至可以改善人与人之间可能自发的互动。
And I know that he was very good friends with all the producers of these reality shows, actually.
事实上，我知道他与这些真人秀的所有制作人都是非常好的朋友。
And actually, I think he was once even present at the filming of the Russian version of Survivor.
事实上，我认为他甚至曾经参加过俄罗斯版《幸存者》的拍摄。
And he's like, if they can do that on TV, sort of fake reality in TV, maybe we can fake reality in reality?
他说，如果他们可以在电视上做到这一点，在电视上伪造现实，也许我们可以在现实中伪造现实？
In a way, yeah.
在某种程度上，是的。
Sean Cole By 2003-- so about four years into Surkov's tenure as grey cardinal-- Vasily says Surkov had built up a whole cadre of deputies that would carry out his agenda with these different parties and other groups.
肖恩·科尔 到了 2003 年，也就是苏尔科夫担任灰红衣主教大约四年后，瓦西里说苏尔科夫已经建立了一支完整的代表队伍，可以与这些不同的政党和其他团体一起执行他的议程。
I asked Vasily for an example of how all this worked, and he told me what everybody told me when I asked for specifics.
我向瓦西里询问了这一切是如何运作的一个例子，当我询问具体细节时，他告诉了我每个人都告诉我的事情。
He said, it's not like I was in the room with him.
他说，我不像他在房间里。
I don't know exactly what he said to whom, nor when.
我不知道他到底对谁说了什么，也不知道什么时候。
He did tell me about this one case that he heard about from someone who worked with Surkov.
他确实向我讲述了他从与苏尔科夫共事的人那里听说的一个案例。
In 2004, Vladimir Putin decided that governors shouldn't be elected anymore.
2004年，弗拉基米尔·普京决定不再选举州长。
They should be appointed by him.
他们应该由他任命。
It's a long story, but at first, every other political party besides Putin's was against the idea.
这是一个很长的故事，但一开始，除了普京之外的所有其他政党都反对这个想法。
Genuinely against it.
真心反对。
But then Surkov manipulated them over to his side.
但随后苏尔科夫将他们操纵到自己这边。
It helped that he controlled their funding and the number of seats they got in the Duma.
他控制了他们的资金和他们在杜马中获得的席位数量，这对他很有帮助。
And then the parties went through this whole drawn-out public drama, which had all the trappings of democracy.
然后各党派经历了这整场旷日持久的公共戏剧，其中充满了民主的所有特征。
The bill was submitted.
该法案已提交。
There were arguments for and against it.
有人支持也有人反对。
Protests around the country.
全国各地抗议活动。
People announced they've changed their minds.
人们宣布他们改变了主意。
There were several votes.
有好几票。
And finally, after three months, it passes.
最后，三个月后，一切都过去了。
All of this, Vasily says, was scripted by Surkov's people.
瓦西里说，所有这一切都是苏尔科夫的人策划的。
The name you hear for all these techniques is managed democracy.
您听到的所有这些技术的名字都是管理民主。
Surkov uses the phrase sovereign democracy.
苏尔科夫使用主权民主这个词。
I suggested to one person I talked to that managed democracy sounds like a contradiction in terms.
我向一位与我交谈过的人表示，管理民主听起来像是一个矛盾。
He said, exactly.
他说，正是如此。
It just means there's no democracy.
这只是意味着没有民主。
I don't want to overstate Surkov's power, nor his malevolence.
我不想夸大苏尔科夫的力量，也不想夸大他的恶毒。
Apparently, he was much more carrot than stick in his approach in explaining why, no, you really want to align yourself with the Kremlin.
显然，在解释为什么你真的想与克里姆林宫结盟时，他的做法更多是胡萝卜而不是坚持。
Here's what's to be gained.
这就是要获得的东西。
And he didn't try to do this with everybody.
他并没有试图对每个人都这样做。
He maintained, under this managed or sovereign democracy, a certain level of dissent.
在这种有管理的或主权的民主制度下，他保持着一定程度的异议。
Some actual opposition.
一些实际的反对。
Vasily Gatov Actual opposition, both in society and press, and even enjoyed this dissent because it was developing natural leaders like Navalny.
瓦西里·加托夫 社会和媒体上的实际反对派，甚至喜欢这种异议，因为它正在培养像纳瓦尔尼这样的天生领导人。
That's Alexei Navalny.
那是阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼。
You may have heard of him.
你可能听说过他。
He's a high-profile activist, organized the anti-corruption protests in Russia a few weeks ago.
他是一位备受瞩目的活动人士，几周前在俄罗斯组织了反腐败抗议活动。
He is considered to be the only real opponent to Putin, except he can't run against Putin because Putin's people had him arrested, and you can't run for president in Russia if you have a criminal record.
他被认为是普京唯一真正的对手，除了他不能与普京竞选，因为普京的人逮捕了他，而且如果你有犯罪记录，你就不能竞选俄罗斯总统。
To be honest, Navalny emerged within these sandboxes of allowed freedom that Surkov created, and it was important for him because it was making his camouflage of autocracy much better-looking.
老实说，纳瓦尔尼出现在苏尔科夫创造的这些允许自由的沙箱中，这对他来说很重要，因为这使他的独裁伪装变得更好看。
The more you hear about Surkov the man, the more it makes you understand how his whole Truman Show theatrical directing of society developed.
你对苏尔科夫这个人了解得越多，就越能理解他对社会的整个《杜鲁门秀》戏剧导演是如何发展的。
He has all of these opposing factions inside of him, too, all working in an unlikely but perfect concert together.
他的内心也有所有这些对立的派别，他们一起在一场看似不可能但完美的音乐会上工作。
Back in the early '90s, he was a PR guy, designing ads for the richest oligarch in Russia.
早在 90 年代初，他是一名公关人员，为俄罗斯最富有的寡头设计广告。
At that point, Surkov said he wanted to be like, quote, "the hero in Pretty Woman." He meant the Richard Gere character.
那时，苏尔科夫说他想成为“《风月俏佳人》中的英雄”。他指的是理查·基尔这个角色。
But he's also a huge fan of the anti-bureaucracy, gay, Buddhist, beat poet, Allen Ginsberg.
但他也是反官僚、同性恋、佛教徒、垮掉派诗人艾伦·金斯伯格的超级粉丝。
This is Surkov reciting Ginsberg's poem "Sunflower Sutra" from memory.
这是苏尔科夫背诵金斯伯格的诗《葵花经》。
And you there standing before me in this sunset, and all your glory in your form.
在夕阳下，你站在我面前，你的形体展现出你所有的荣耀。
A perfect beauty of a sunflower.
完美展现向日葵的美丽。
You might be able to tell that Surkov studied theater, but he got kicked out of the Moscow Institute of Culture after a fistfight.
你也许能看出来，苏尔科夫学的是戏剧，但他在一次打架后被莫斯科文化学院开除了。
Reportedly.
据说。
He's written lyrics for a Russian band called Agata Kristi.
他为俄罗斯乐队 Agata Kristi 写过歌词。
And so you marry PR and art and performance, plus his time at Russia's main state TV network, Channel One, managed democracy was just the natural culmination.
因此，你将公关、艺术和表演结合起来，再加上他在俄罗斯主要国家电视网络第一频道的经历，管理民主就自然而然地达到了顶峰。
Again, Vasily Gatov.
又是瓦西里·加托夫。
Vasily Gatov It was really funny for him to make these things happen, to achieve certain results, and creative building of reality.
瓦西里·加托夫（Vasily Gatov）让这些事情发生，取得一定的成果，并创造性地构建现实，对他来说真的很有趣。
Again, as I said, it's a very much Big Brother type of scripting.
正如我所说，这是一种非常老大哥类型的脚本。
You need to create a conflict, and this conflict will create the conflict, and then we just roll it out and people will vote, and that would be fun.
你需要制造冲突，这种冲突会制造冲突，然后我们将其推出，人们会投票，这会很有趣。
Besides which, he could totally get away with it because not only was he good at it, but in Surkov's time as grey cardinal, not very many people were paying attention.
除此之外，他完全可以侥幸逃脱，因为不仅他很擅长，而且在苏尔科夫担任灰红衣主教期间，并没有多少人关注。
At this moment, people were absolutely uninterested in politics because Russia had a national economy growth of about 9% a year.
此时此刻，人们对政治绝对不感兴趣，因为俄罗斯的国民经济每年增长约9%。
The ruble was taking strength.
卢布正在走强。
Credit was extremely cheap.
信贷非常便宜。
The country was booming.
国家正在蓬勃发展。
It's easy to build autocracy when a country's booming because nobody cares about politics.
当一个国家蓬勃发展时，很容易建立独裁统治，因为没有人关心政治。
Right.
正确的。
Vasily Gatov And I think Surkov was enjoying this moment because he was not only kind of a shadow cardinal, but he actually was openly cardinaling the situation.
瓦西里·加托夫 我认为苏尔科夫很享受这一刻，因为他不仅是一位影子枢机主教，而且实际上是在公开地主导局势。
That is, after a certain point, he wouldn't take very many pains to hide what he was doing, which I can imagine the feeling.
也就是说，到了一定程度之后，他就不会费尽心思去隐藏自己正在做的事情了，我可以想象那种感觉。
Here he is carrying off all of these feats of manipulation in secret.
在这里，他正在秘密地进行所有这些操纵壮举。
You'd think he'd want a little credit.
你可能认为他想要一点功劳。
On this point, there was a moment when Surkov seemed to be showing his cards a little bit, deliberately.
在这一点上，有那么一刻，苏尔科夫似乎有意地亮出了自己的底牌。
It's a story that Peter Pomerantsev likes to tell.
这是彼得·波梅兰采夫喜欢讲的故事。
He's the journalist that Ira quoted earlier.
他就是艾拉之前引用的那位记者。
Peter used to work in reality TV in Russia, and he's written a lot about Surkov.
彼得曾经在俄罗斯的真人秀节目中工作，他写过很多关于苏尔科夫的文章。
This liberal blogger-- liberal photo blogger, yeah; the very, very popular blog-- took some photos of the office.
这位自由派博主——自由派照片博主，是的；非常非常受欢迎的博客——拍了一些办公室的照片。
Of Surkov's office?
苏尔科夫的办公室？
Peter Pomerantsev Yeah, yeah.
彼得·波梅兰采夫 是的，是的。
He was there to photograph an official meeting, but he said on his blog that he was much more interested in what was in the office.
他去那里是为了拍摄一次正式会议，但他在博客上表示，他对办公室里的东西更感兴趣。
And that's where you have the phones on his desk with the names of all the opposition political parties.
他办公桌上的电话就在那里，上面有所有反对党的名字。
Like literally, there's a whole mess of phones.
就像字面意思一样，手机乱七八糟。
And on one of them in particular, next to the numbers, there's a bank of buttons labeled "Mironov," "Zhirinovsky," "Zyuganov," all heads of parties.
特别是在其中一张上，在数字旁边，有一排按钮，上面写着“米罗诺夫”、“日里诺夫斯基”、“久加诺夫”，都是政党领袖。
And you have the photo of Tupac Shakur next to like Machiavelli or something.
你可以看到图帕克·沙库尔（Tupac Shakur）的照片，旁边还有马基雅维利（Machiavelli）之类的人。
Yes, Tupac Shakur the rapper.
是的，说唱歌手图帕克·沙库尔。
It's actually next to a picture of Barack Obama.
它实际上就在巴拉克·奥巴马的照片旁边。
And at the time, everyone was like, oh my god, wow, we got to see inside Surkov's office.
当时，每个人都说，天哪，哇，我们看到了苏尔科夫的办公室。
And then many years later, when everybody realized that Surkov had been funding this liberal blogger, everyone's like, oh my god, he leaked that.
许多年后，当每个人意识到苏尔科夫一直在资助这位自由派博主时，每个人都说，天哪，他泄露了这一点。
He wanted us to feel his power.
他想让我们感受到他的力量。
And he wanted to create an atmosphere where you can never really tell what's true anymore, so everything is suspect.
他想营造一种氛围，让你永远无法真正分辨什么是真实的，所以一切都是可疑的。
That was absolutely intentional.
这绝对是故意的。
Surkov himself has come just shy of saying it openly.
苏尔科夫本人却不敢公开说出这一点。
This is another shape Surkov is reported to have shifted into.
据报道，这是苏尔科夫转变为的另一种形态。
He wrote a novel under the pseudonym Natan Dubovitsky.
他以笔名纳坦·杜博维茨基写了一本小说。
He won't admit it's really him, but Surkov's wife is named Natalya Dubovitskaya, so everyone's like, nutty coincidence.
他不会承认这确实是他，但苏尔科夫的妻子名叫娜塔莉亚·杜博维茨卡娅，所以每个人都像是，疯狂的巧合。
The book's called Almost Zero, or Close to Zero.
这本书的名字叫《几乎为零》或《接近零》。
It's about a PR guy who grew up in the sticks, like Surkov did, moved to Moscow to hang out with bohemian artists, like Surkov did, and is now embroiled in the seedy murderous underworld of illegal book publishing and distribution.
这是关于一个公关人员的故事，他像苏尔科夫一样在困境中长大，搬到莫斯科与波西米亚艺术家一起出去玩，就像苏尔科夫一样，现在卷入了非法图书出版和发行的肮脏凶残的黑社会。
Oh, and it's got an English subtitle-- "gangsta fiction."
哦，它有一个英文字幕——“黑帮小说”。
In any case, Peter says there are these really telling passages in which the hero realizes, oh, wait.
无论如何，彼得说，有这些非常有说服力的段落，其中英雄意识到，哦，等等。
Everything's made up.
一切都已安排好。
Language, politics, every ideology-- everything's fake.
语言、政治、每一种意识形态——一切都是假的。
I can see through it all.
我能看透这一切。
It's an epic kind of cynicism.
这是一种史诗般的愤世嫉俗。
It's not cynicism as in like, oh, I don't believe in anything, but almost like, oh my god, I've burst through the shallow shells of morality and ideology and belief.
这不是犬儒主义，就像，哦，我什么都不相信，而是几乎就像，哦，我的上帝，我冲破了道德、意识形态和信仰的浅薄外壳。
It's like I'm seeing behind the Matrix kind of a thing.
就好像我看到了黑客帝国背后的某种东西。
Yeah, very much.
是的，非常喜欢。
The Matrix was a super popular film in Russia.
《黑客帝国》在俄罗斯是一部非常受欢迎的电影。
I bet.
我敢打赌。
Peter Pomerantsev Which makes sense, if you think about Russian history, or this generation like Surkov or like Putin.
彼得·波梅兰采夫（Peter Pomerantsev）如果你想想俄罗斯的历史，或者像苏尔科夫或普京这样的一代人，这是有道理的。
They've lived through communism.
他们经历过共产主义。
They've lived through the mafia state.
他们经历过黑手党国家。
They've lived through fake democracy, through religious national socialism, or an empire building, which they have now, and it's all the same people.
他们经历过假民主，经历过宗教国家社会主义，或者经历过他们现在拥有的帝国建设，而且都是同样的人。
And they've gone through so many different modes of being in the last 30 years, and such blistering progression, that they're kind of left with the feeling that everything is a masquerade.
在过去的 30 年里，他们经历了如此多不同的存在模式，以及如此惊人的进步，以至于他们感觉一切都是一场假面舞会。
So when Surkov says everything is controlled in a construct, what he's actually saying is not a confession.
因此，当苏尔科夫说一切都被控制在一个结构中时，他实际上所说的并不是坦白。
It's a piece of psychological propaganda to say, so there's no point struggling for anything.
这只是一种心理宣传，所以没有必要为任何事情而奋斗。
Don't even try to do any of your silly protest movements.
甚至不要尝试做任何愚蠢的抗议动作。
So in a way you're killing-- if you tell people that everything is a conspiracy, it doesn't lead people to revolt.
所以从某种程度上来说，你是在杀人——如果你告诉人们一切都是阴谋，这不会导致人们反抗。
It leads people to go--
它引导人们去——
Give up.
放弃吧。
Peter Pomerantsev --well, then I might as well give up.
Peter Pomerantsev——好吧，那我还是放弃吧。
Yes.
是的。
But again, we might be over-interpreting here.
但同样，我们在这里可能会过度解释。
But it's a book, so we're allowed to.
但这是一本书，所以我们可以这样做。
Like I said before, Surkov is no longer the grand manager of propaganda in Russia.
正如我之前所说，苏尔科夫不再是俄罗斯宣传的大管家。
He was sidelined in 2011 after a dispute with Putin.
2011年，他因与普京发生争执而被边缘化。
A dis-Putin.
一个反普京。
But he's still a personal adviser to the president, and he was also an organizer of Russia's takeover of the Crimean Peninsula in Ukraine in 2014.
但他仍然是总统的私人顾问，也是俄罗斯2014年接管乌克兰克里米亚半岛的组织者。
His involvement in that annexation got him sanctioned by the West, meaning he's not allowed to travel to the US or Europe anymore.
他参与吞并行动使他受到西方的制裁，这意味着他不再被允许前往美国或欧洲。
And he can't have assets in the West, either.
而且他在西方也没有资产。
Surkov was unfazed.
苏尔科夫并不担心。
"The only things that interest me in the US," he said, "are Tupac Shakur, Allen Ginsberg, and Jackson Pollock.
“在美国，我唯一感兴趣的是图帕克·沙库尔、艾伦·金斯伯格和杰克逊·波洛克。”
I don't need a visa to access their work," which, you know, good comeback.
我不需要签证就能获得他们的工作”，你知道，这是一个很好的回归。
And he has a point about Allen Ginsberg.
他对艾伦·金斯伯格的看法是有道理的。
God, I love Allen Ginsberg.
天哪，我爱艾伦·金斯伯格。
"America, you don't really want to go to war.
“美国，你真的不想发动战争。
America its them bad Russians.
美国是他们坏俄罗斯人。
Them Russians them Russians and them Chinamen.
他们是俄罗斯人，他们是俄罗斯人，他们是中国人。
And them Russians.
还有他们俄罗斯人。
The Russia wants to eat us alive.
俄罗斯想活吃我们。
The Russia's power mad.
俄罗斯的力量疯狂了。
She wants to take our cars from out our garages.
她想把我们的车从车库里拿出来。
Her wants to grab Chicago.
她想占领芝加哥。
Her needs Red Reader's Digest.
她需要《红色读者文摘》。
Her wants our auto plants in Siberia.
她想要我们在西伯利亚的汽车工厂。
Him big bureaucracy running our fillingstations.
他是一个庞大的官僚机构，负责管理我们的加油站。
That no good.
那不好。
Ugh--"
呃——”
Sean Cole is one the producers of our show.
肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制片人之一。
So the anti-government protests last month in Russia were surprising for a few reasons.
因此，俄罗斯上个月的反政府抗议活动令人惊讶，原因有几个。
Their size, the fact that they happened in cities all across the country.
它们的规模，以及它们发生在全国各地城市的事实。
These were the first big demonstrations in years in Russia.
这是俄罗斯多年来首次举行大规模示威活动。
And there were tons of young people.
还有很多年轻人。
That was new.
那是新的。
Lots of those young people were there because they've been watching these videos online that had been created by the charismatic opposition leader Alexei Navalny, who's the one who called for the protests, which were about government corruption, also the subject of his recent video documentary.
许多年轻人之所以来到那里，是因为他们一直在网上观看这些视频，这些视频是由富有魅力的反对派领袖阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼（Alexei Navalny）制作的，他是呼吁抗议的人，抗议活动涉及政府腐败，这也是他最近的视频纪录片的主题。
And then, after the protests were done last month, teenagers started posting their own videos to the internet of their teachers lecturing them about the protests, with kids arguing back.
然后，在上个月的抗议活动结束后，青少年开始将自己的视频发布到互联网上，视频中老师向他们讲授抗议活动，而孩子们则进行了反击。
You were called in for a lecture by your principal, you think that very idea of your principal lecturing you on the subject of protest is either unjust or absurd or funny or whatever, and so you film it and post it, just like I think a lot of 16-, 17-year-olds might be tempted to do anywhere.
你被校长叫来听讲座，你认为校长就抗议主题向你讲课的想法要么不公正，要么荒谬，要么有趣，或者其他什么，所以你把它拍下来并发布，就像我认为很多 16 岁、17 岁的孩子可能会在任何地方做的那样。
Joshua Yaffa is a correspondent for The New Yorker magazine in Moscow, and he wrote about one of these videos that was filmed in the provincial town of Bryansk, 200 miles from Moscow.
约书亚·亚法 (Joshua Yaffa) 是《纽约客》杂志驻莫斯科的记者，他撰写了其中一段视频，该视频是在距莫斯科 200 英里的省城布良斯克拍摄的。
Apparently, there was a student there who tried to enlist other kids to go to the protests, which led to their principal and homeroom teacher to talk to them.
显然，那里有一名学生试图招募其他孩子参加抗议活动，导致他们的校长和班主任与他们交谈。
Which they filmed.
他们拍摄的。
It's obvious that it was filmed surreptitiously.
很明显，这是偷偷拍摄的。
You see a lot of the desk in front of you and half-cut-off shots of the school principal in front of a chalkboard.
你可以看到你面前的很多桌子和黑板前校长的半截镜头。
OK, and I should say that most of it's just completely black.
好吧，我应该说大部分都是全黑的。
You see nothing, and you hear sound.
你什么也看不见，却听到声音。
And then occasionally the camera bops up.
然后相机偶尔会弹出。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Joshua Yaffa She's essentially saying, with a tone in her voice that suggests "you naive, juvenile, somewhat immature in the ways of the world" students, are interested in this guy Navalny.
[说俄语] Joshua Yaffa 她实质上是在说，她的语气暗示着“你们这些天真、幼稚、在世事上有些不成熟”的学生，对纳瓦尔尼这个家伙感兴趣。
What does he really stand for?
他真正代表什么？
What is he really offering or suggesting other than just getting rid of the country's leaders?
除了摆脱国家领导人之外，他真正提供或建议的是什么？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Joshua Yaffa The principal says, guys, I can see that you're looking at this problem one-sidedly, and that you lack range in your political view.
[俄语] Joshua Yaffa 校长说，各位，我看得出你们看待这个问题的方式是片面的，而且你们的政治观点缺乏范围。
You see Navalny.
你看到纳瓦尔尼了。
You watch his video.
你看他的视频。
And boom, you believe it all.
繁荣，你相信这一切。
When you wrote about this recording in The New Yorker, you described her tone as hectoring and frustrated.
当你在《纽约客》上写到这段录音时，你形容她的语气是恐吓和沮丧的。
I would say that that's really the most interesting or striking thing about the whole video to me.
我想说，这对我来说确实是整个视频中最有趣或最引人注目的事情。
To me, it sounds like Kira Petrovna, the principal, is experiencing something between confusion, exasperation, anger.
对我来说，校长基拉·彼得罗夫娜（Kira Petrovna）似乎正在经历困惑、恼怒和愤怒之间的某种情绪。
I think she's really at a loss.
我觉得她真的很失落。
She doesn't understand them, maybe, in the same way that, I don't know, five years ago, seven years ago there was something more shared between her and her students.
她不理解它们，也许，就像，我不知道，五年前，七年前，她和她的学生之间有更多的共同点。
At one point, she starts defending Vladimir Putin, saying, you can't blame him for the bad economy.
有一次，她开始为弗拉基米尔·普京辩护，她说，你不能把经济不景气归咎于他。
That's because of the sanctions that the European Union and the United States imposed on Russia.
这是因为欧盟和美国对俄罗斯实施的制裁。
And she says, on the world stage and foreign policy, he's doing a great job, which the students challenge.
她说，在世界舞台和外交政策上，他做得很好，但学生们对此提出了质疑。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Joshua Yaffa The student is asking the principal, OK, so what is our foreign policy?
[俄语] Joshua Yaffa 学生问校长，好的，那么我们的外交政策是什么？
America is against us.
美国反对我们。
Europe is against us.
欧洲反对我们。
And the principal says, OK, well, why is that?
校长说，好吧，这是为什么呢？
What's the reason?
原因是什么？
And the student, without thinking, says, well, that's because of Crimea.
学生不假思索地说，好吧，那是因为克里米亚。
We took it.
我们拿走了它。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Kira Petrovna [SPEAKING RUSSIAN]
[俄语] 基拉·彼得罗夫娜 [俄语]
And the principal, responding with some surprise or indignation says, so was that bad?
校长有些惊讶或愤慨地回答说，那很糟糕吗？
Because in most of Russia, it's seen as like a patriotic thing to have taken Crimea.
因为在俄罗斯大部分地区，占领克里米亚被视为爱国行为。
Yeah.
是的。
The annexation of Crimea is incredibly popular.
吞并克里米亚非常受欢迎。
It's widely perceived to have been a good thing, basically.
基本上，人们普遍认为这是一件好事。
And then the homeroom teacher jumps in and argues with the kids over Crimea.
然后班主任介入并与孩子们就克里米亚问题争论。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Ira Glass The teacher says, did we really take Crimea?
[俄语] Ira Glass 老师说，我们真的占领了克里米亚吗？
Didn't they vote and choose to become part of Russia?
他们不是投票选择成为俄罗斯的一部分吗？
The kids correctly point out, yes, Russia did take Crimea, and the sanctions were the result.
孩子们正确地指出，是的，俄罗斯确实占领了克里米亚，制裁就是结果。
Soon the conversation turns to the fighting in eastern Ukraine.
很快话题就转向了乌克兰东部的战斗。
Russia officially denies that its soldiers are there, but all kinds of evidence has come out proving that this is untrue.
俄罗斯官方否认有其士兵在那里，但各种证据都证明这是不真实的。
And the principal is essentially trying to blame the crisis in Ukraine on America.
这位校长本质上是试图将乌克兰危机归咎于美国。
Let me read exactly what she says because it's so aggressive.
让我仔细读一下她说的话，因为它太咄咄逼人了。
She says, kid, you haven't read anything about this and you don't know a thing.
她说，孩子，你没有读过任何有关这方面的内容，你什么也不知道。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Ira Glass You've got some very superficial knowledge here.
[俄语] Ira Glass 您在这里获得的知识非常肤浅。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Ira Glass What started this whole conflict?
[俄语] Ira Glass 整个冲突的起因是什么？
Maybe it was because America stuck its nose in.
也许是因为美国插手了。
And then they start to argue.
然后他们开始争论。
Right.
正确的。
And the student asks, somewhat mockingly of the principal, did you see American troops in Ukraine?
学生有点嘲笑校长地问，你在乌克兰看到美军了吗？
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Joshua Yaffa And the principal says, did you see Russian troops in Ukraine?
[俄语] Joshua Yaffa 校长说，你在乌克兰看到俄罗斯军队了吗？
And this is this moment where the student reveals this like basic, elementary, non-ideological, factual knowledge, and the student just says, yes.
就在这个时刻，学生揭示了基本的、初级的、非意识形态的、事实性的知识，学生只是说，是的。
Da.
达。
Joshua Yaffa There are videos going around.
Joshua Yaffa 有一些视频在流传。
And then comes, really, maybe my favorite line.
然后，真的，也许是我最喜欢的台词。
You have no idea.
你不知道。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Joshua Yaffa And that, to me, gets to the key point of this whole dialogue, which is the kids just have access to this information and just a worldview that they've gotten on the internet themselves-- information that's not on state TV.
[说俄语]约书亚·亚法（Joshua Yaffa） 对我来说，这触及了整个对话的关键点，即孩子们只能获取这些信息以及他们自己在互联网上获得的世界观 - 这些信息不在国家电视台上。
And that alone seems kind of somewhat destabilizing or uncomfortable for the principal.
仅此一点似乎就让校长有点不稳定或不舒服。
The kids don't watch TV the way older Russians do.
孩子们不像老俄罗斯人那样看电视。
The principal tells them, OK, you don't remember how bad it was here before Putin.
校长告诉他们，好吧，你们不记得普京上任之前这里的情况有多糟糕。
The country was in chaos.
国家一片混乱。
People had to carry guns and knives.
人们必须携带枪支和刀具。
And this is when I was in college.
这是我上大学的时候。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Ira Glass When she says this, and when she parrots talking points that you might hear on Russian state TV, she seems totally sincere.
[说俄语] Ira Glass 当她说这句话时，当她重复你可能在俄罗斯国家电视台听到的谈话要点时，她看起来非常真诚。
As an American watching this, it's one of the things that's actually most interesting about this video.
作为观看此视频的美国人，这是该视频实际上最有趣的事情之一。
You think that these government talking points on Crimea or Ukraine or whatever, you wonder if authorities are just mouthing these points and they don't actually believe them.
你认为这些政府关于克里米亚或乌克兰或其他什么的谈话要点，你想知道当局是否只是口头上讲这些观点，而他们实际上并不相信它们。
When you hear the principal, she seems totally emotional when she runs through these talking points.
当你听到校长讲述这些谈话要点时，她似乎非常情绪化。
But those talking points are, in a way, emotional, couched in the language of patriotism and appeal to history.
但从某种程度上来说，这些谈话要点是情绪化的，用爱国主义的语言和历史诉求来表达。
Russia as a great power.
俄罗斯作为一个大国。
Russia as this besieged fortress surrounded by enemies who wish it harm.
俄罗斯就像一座被围困的堡垒，周围都是希望伤害它的敌人。
And the students just seem less receptive to those messages.
而学生们似乎不太容易接受这些信息。
At one point, the kids openly laugh at the country's ruling political party, President Putin's party, United Russia.
有一次，孩子们公开嘲笑该国的执政党、普京总统的统一俄罗斯党。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Students [SNICKERING]
[说俄语] 学生们 [窃笑]
Ira Glass We're against United Russia, the kid's saying.
艾拉·格拉斯：我们反对统一俄罗斯党，孩子说。
The student asks everybody to raise their hands who is against United Russia.
学生要求所有反对统一俄罗斯党的人举手。
And then you get the sense-- this part is dark in the video.
然后你就会感觉到——这部分在视频中是黑暗的。
You get the sense that lots of hands are going up.
你会感觉到有很多人举手。
[SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Students [EXCITED MUTTERING]
[说俄语] 学生们 [兴奋的嘀咕]
This is one of the things that's interesting to me about this because I feel like we read about how the Russian government sort of floods the zone in their own country with all kinds of misinformation and disinformation to make people feel that Putin is doing a great job.
这是我感兴趣的事情之一，因为我觉得我们读到了俄罗斯政府如何在自己国家的地区充斥着各种错误信息和虚假信息，让人们觉得普京做得很好。
And here it seems like you have a bunch of kids who just seem utterly immune to it.
在这里，似乎有一群孩子似乎对此完全免疫。
Yeah.
是的。
And that, I think, must freak out the political advisors and political technologists, as they're called here in Russia, in the Kremlin who just seem to have lost the country's youth.
我认为，这肯定会吓坏政治顾问和政治技术专家，正如他们在俄罗斯克里姆林宫的称呼一样，他们似乎失去了这个国家的年轻人。
They just don't seem to be able to come up with the kind of messages and rhetoric that, for an older generation, worked so easily and naturally, and it flowed with so little resistance.
他们似乎无法想出那种对于老一代人来说如此轻松自然、毫无阻力的信息和言辞。
Joshua Yaffa of The New Yorker magazine, in Moscow.
莫斯科《纽约客》杂志的约书亚·亚法 (Joshua Yaffa)。
Well, our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Jonathan Menjivar 制作的。
Our staff includes Elise Bergerson, Elna Baker, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Karen Duffin, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Robyn Semien, Alyssa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, and Diane Wu.
我们的员工包括 Elise Bergerson、Elna Baker、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Karen Duffin、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Robyn Semien、Alyssa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney 和 Diane Wu。
Research help today from Michelle Harris and Benjamin Phelan.
米歇尔·哈里斯 (Michelle Harris) 和本杰明·费兰 (Benjamin Phelan) 今天提供了研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef.
达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 的音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
Obviously, like so many public figures, people ask him all the time, did he ever meet with Russian officials during the presidential transition?
显然，像许多公众人物一样，人们一直在问他，他在总统过渡期间是否曾与俄罗斯官员会面？
Nyet.
还没有。
Nyet.
还没有。
Nyet.
还没有。
Nyet!
不！
No!
不！
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。