612: Ask a Grown-Up - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #612 | March 17, 2017 612: Ask a Grown-Up Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 612 集 | 2017 年 3 月 17 日 612：询问成年人 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Well, it's This American Life.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 嗯，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
And I'm joined in the studio right now by one of our producers, Sean Cole.
我们的制作人之一肖恩·科尔现在也加入了我的工作室。
Hey there, Sean.
嘿，肖恩。
Hello, Ira.
你好，艾拉。
Ira Glass So Sean, where do we start?
Ira Glass 那么肖恩，我们从哪里开始呢？
With Run the Jewels.
与运行珠宝。
Do you know Run the Jewels?
你知道《奔跑吧珠宝》吗？
Little bit.
一点。
Sean Cole They're so good.
肖恩·科尔 他们太棒了。
It's a rap group.
这是一个说唱团体。
It's two guys, really-- Killer Mike and El-P.
实际上是两个人——杀手迈克和 El-P。
And this is from their latest record.
这是他们的最新记录。
[MUSIC - "LEGEND HAS IT" BY RUN THE JEWELS]
[音乐 - RUN THE JEWELS 的“LEGEND HAS IT”]
Look like a man but I'm animal raw.
看起来像个男人，但我是动物性的。
We are the murderous pair that went to jail, and we murdered the murderers there.
我们是进监狱的凶手，我们在那里谋杀了凶手。
So one day, I was looking around for videos of them on YouTube.
所以有一天，我在 YouTube 上寻找他们的视频。
And there's a lot of videos of them being interviewed, and most of them are like this.
而且他们接受采访的视频有很多，大部分都是这样的。
We make some [BLEEP] that's going to make you want to [BLEEP] tear the rafters out of the building.
我们会发出一些[BLEEP]，这会让你想[BLEEP]把椽子从建筑物上撕下来。
And then there's this one that's different.
然后还有一个不同的。
So just to say what we're looking at.
所以只是说说我们正在看什么。
They're sitting in a house together, quietly.
他们一起安静地坐在一间屋子里。
And we are Run the Jewels.
我们是“Run the Jewels”。
Killer Mike We are.
我们是杀手迈克。
Looking directly into the web camera and answering the advice questions of teenage girls.
直视网络摄像头并回答少女的建议问题。
This question is from Blue and she's 13 and from Seattle.
这个问题来自 Blue，她 13 岁，来自西雅图。
She says, "I think I might be in love with one of my close friends.
她说：“我想我可能爱上了我的一位亲密朋友。
How do I know if I'm in love with him or just naive?" It's a good question.
我怎么知道我是爱他还是只是太天真？”这是一个好问题。
I'll be honest, Blue.
我说实话，蓝。
To be in love, period, makes you feel kind of naive.
恋爱会让你感觉有点天真。
You never know.
你永远不知道。
There's no manual that says, hey, I'm in love, and I'm going to tell you--
没有手册说，嘿，我恋爱了，我要告诉你——
It's 17 minutes long and I was spellbound.
片长 17 分钟，我完全被迷住了。
Within the first minute and a half, El-P realizes he's still wearing his sunglasses and takes them off all of the sudden out of politeness.
在最初的一分半钟内，El-P 意识到自己还戴着墨镜，出于礼貌，他突然摘下了墨镜。
But at about 12, 13 years old, you probably definitely have some of your first loves.
但在12、13岁左右，你可能肯定有过一些初恋。
I'm not going to say you aren't in love.
我不会说你不爱。
I'm probably gonna say you probably are.
我可能会说你可能是。
But I'm probably going to warn you that, if you're in love, it's supposed to make you feel better and want to do better.
但我可能会警告你，如果你恋爱了，它应该会让你感觉更好并且想要做得更好。
It's not supposed to make you feel bad.
它不应该让你感觉不好。
So if any love starts to feel bad, definitely pull away from it.
因此，如果任何爱情开始让人感觉不好，一定要远离它。
So this video was part of a series that was originally called "Ask a Grown Man," which is done by the online magazine Rookie, which is mainly aimed at teen and tween girls.
所以这个视频是最初名为“问一个成熟男人”的系列的一部分，该系列由在线杂志 Rookie 制作，主要针对青少年和青少年女孩。
I have to say I know this series well.
我不得不说我很了解这个系列。
Full disclosure, my wife worked for Rookie a few years ago.
坦白说，我的妻子几年前在 Rookie 工作过。
In the Run the Jewels video, all the questions are about love and relationships.
在“奔跑珠宝”视频中，所有问题都与爱情和关系有关。
This one girl, for example, she's 16 years old.
以这位女孩为例，她今年16岁。
Priscilla in Colorado Springs.
普里西拉在科罗拉多斯普林斯。
She says she's never been in a relationship and never been kissed, in fact.
她说她从未谈过恋爱，事实上也从未被接吻过。
I'm worried that this means men aren't attracted to me and that I'll end up an old cat lady.
我担心这意味着男人不会被我吸引，我最终会成为一个老猫女士。
That's pretty funny, Priscilla.
这很有趣，普里西拉。
You're already good because you're funny.
你已经很好了，因为你很有趣。
And so then she gets to her question, which is, should I tell whoever I end up kissing for the first time that I've never done this before?
然后她提出了她的问题，那就是，我应该告诉我第一次接吻的人我以前从未这样做过吗？
And Run the Jewels says, yeah, that's probably the best idea.
Run the Jewels 说，是的，这可能是最好的主意。
And then Killer Mike says--
然后杀手迈克说——
I would be honored to be your first kiss.
我很荣幸成为你的初吻。
And El-P just looks at him like, the hell?
El-P 只是看着他，好像在说，见鬼？
If we were your age.
如果我们在你这个年纪。
Killer Mike Yeah, if we were your age.
杀手迈克 是的，如果我们在你这个年纪的话。
If you're lucky enough.
如果你足够幸运的话。
Should be specified.
应予以明确。
Yes.
是的。
Sean Cole I mean, just seeing Run the Jewels do this-- or sometimes very famous TV people, Jimmy Fallon, or Paul Rudd.
肖恩·科尔（Sean Cole），我的意思是，只是看到 Run the Jewels 这样做——或者有时非常著名的电视人物，吉米·法伦（Jimmy Fallon）或保罗·路德（Paul Rudd）。
Ad-Rock does one from the Beastie Boys-- leaving their public persona and doing what is a very sincere thing, actually trying to be helpful to a kid that they don't know, in real time.
Ad-Rock 做了 Beastie Boys 的一件事——离开他们的公众形象，做一件非常真诚的事情，实际上是试图实时帮助一个他们不认识的孩子。
There's almost never any edits to them.
几乎没有对它们进行任何编辑。
And then some of the questions are kind of hard and often, they come up with really good answers.
有些问题有点难，但他们通常会给出很好的答案。
And case in point.
举个例子。
At the end of the Run the Jewels video, there's this one question which is just-- I think I would be nervous answering it.
在 Run the Jewels 视频的最后，有一个问题——我想我回答这个问题会很紧张。
Oh, no. This is a real one.
哦，不。这是真的。
Yeah, OK.
是的，好的。
Go for it.
大胆试试吧。
I've had a huge crush on an amazing guy for quite a while, but it's problematic because he's in his mid-20s.
我迷恋一个很棒的男人已经有一段时间了，但这有问题，因为他才 20 多岁。
Makes me feel really special, but I think he has this effect on everyone.
让我感觉很特别，但我认为他对每个人都有这种影响。
Do you have advice for a question on older people?
对于老年人的问题，您有什么建议吗？
And this is from G, who's 14 and in London.
这是 G 发来的，她 14 岁，住在伦敦。
And then Mike sort of pauses for a second and then pointedly looks at the camera.
然后迈克停顿了一秒钟，然后尖锐地看着镜头。
That's too big of an age gap.
这年龄差距也太大了吧
And that's not saying that you aren't capable of loving someone.
这并不是说你没有能力爱某人。
That's not saying you won't love older people when you get older.
这并不是说当你变老时你不会爱年长的人。
But at 14 years old, your priorities and world perspective is not at the same place a person in their mid-20s is.
但在 14 岁时，你的优先事项和世界观与 20 多岁的人并不相同。
You should always do things, for the next few years, that are age-appropriate.
在接下来的几年里，你应该始终做适合年龄的事情。
Between 14 and 18 years old--
14岁至18岁之间——
And even then, Mike has the wherewithal to affirm how this girl feels.
即便如此，迈克也有足够的资金来肯定这个女孩的感受。
I can't tell you your feelings for someone are wrong because feelings are just feelings.
我不能告诉你你对某人的感觉是错误的，因为感觉只是感觉。
You can't control them.
你无法控制它们。
But if you or this person ever acted on those feelings, it'd put the person that you like behind bars.
但如果你或这个人曾经按照这些感受行事，你喜欢的人就会被关进监狱。
And it'd probably put you, emotionally, in a place that you don't deserve to be just because you haven't matured to the level that you're going to one day.
从情感上来说，它可能会让你处于一种不值得的境地，因为你还没有成熟到有一天你会达到的水平。
One thing that's interesting to think about, who else could this 14-year-old turn to for advice on this subject?
想想一件有趣的事情，这个 14 岁的孩子还能向谁寻求关于这个问题的建议呢？
I mean, I guess her friends, right?
我是说，我猜她是朋友，对吧？
Though they're not going to know much more about this than she does.
尽管他们不会比她知道更多。
And it's not something that you'd want to ask your parents, right?
这不是你想问你父母的事情，对吗？
Like, hey, I'm in love with a 25-year-old.
就像，嘿，我爱上了一个 25 岁的人。
Is it OK if I date him?
我和他约会可以吗？
I mean, it's just like--
我的意思是，这就像——
Yeah.
是的。
You know where's that's going to go.
你知道那会去哪里。
It would go to, you're grounded for the next 13 years.
那就意味着，你将在接下来的 13 年里被禁足。
This is a situation that needs somebody who's wiser than you are and sympathetic to you.
在这种情况下，需要比你更聪明、更同情你的人。
It needs a grown-up.
它需要一个成年人。
I think that's actually the best way to say it.
我认为这实际上是最好的表达方式。
It needs a grown-up.
它需要一个成年人。
Somebody mature and thoughtful and nice.
一个成熟、体贴、友善的人。
Well, from WBEZ Chicago, our program today is about situations like this one, where you need to step back from the chaos and drama of your troubles and feelings and call in somebody to get perspective-- situations where you call in an adult.
好吧，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，我们今天的节目是关于这样的情况，在这种情况下，你需要从麻烦和感受的混乱和戏剧性中抽身出来，并请某人来获得观点 - 在这种情况下，你需要请一个成年人。
We have all kinds of stories this hour, including an enemy of the people trying to make peace with some of the people.
这个小时我们有各种各样的故事，包括人民的敌人试图与某些人民和平相处。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Are You There Ad-Rock?
第一幕，你在广告摇滚吗？
It's Me, Margaret.
是我，玛格丽特。
So here are some of those videos where I'm beeping a couple words in this story here in the internet version of the show.
因此，这里有一些视频，我在该节目的互联网版本中的这个故事中嘟嘟嘟地讲了几句话。
There's a beeped version on our website if you prefer that.
如果您愿意，我们的网站上有一个嘟嘟声版本。
It's really interesting seeing the variety of questions and answers on the "Ask A Grown Man" series, partly because the drama the kids are going through is just interesting in and of itself, and partly, like we said, because you see the famous people in such a different light.
看到“问一个成年人”系列中各种各样的问题和答案真的很有趣，部分原因是孩子们正在经历的戏剧本身就很有趣，部分原因是，就像我们说的，因为你以如此不同的角度看待名人。
Here's Sean again.
肖恩又来了。
You see them in a different light literally in some cases.
在某些情况下，你确实会从不同的角度看待它们。
They're usually on hazy laptop cameras.
它们通常位于模糊的笔记本电脑摄像头上。
The sound is terrible.
声音很可怕。
One morning, someone came into my office here at the show and thought I was Skyping with Seth Rogen.
一天早上，有人在展会期间走进我的办公室，以为我正在与塞斯·罗根 (Seth Rogen) 进行 Skype 通话。
Hi!
你好！
Oop, there's someone behind me.
哎呀，我后面有人了。
There's people everywhere.
到处都是人。
There's a head right here--
这里有一个头——
And this isn't the point of the series, but often you find yourself even more endeared to the guys in the videos.
这不是该系列的重点，但您通常会发现自己更受视频中的人喜爱。
And one thing that comes up over and over is they're not sure they're worthy of the designation "grown man." Run the Jewels said as much.
一次又一次出现的一件事是，他们不确定自己是否值得被称为“成年人”。 《奔跑吧珠宝》也这么说。
Being grown is debatable.
成长是有争议的。
Sean Cole And Stephen Colbert.
肖恩·科尔和斯蒂芬·科尔伯特。
I'm honored to be considered a grown man.
我很荣幸被认为是一个成年人。
Not today.
不是今天。
Not particularly.
不是特别。
Sean Cole And occasionally they don't say they're not grown up as much as just provide evidence to the fact.
肖恩·科尔：有时他们不会说自己还没有长大，而只是提供事实证据。
Hi, I'm Hannibal Buress.
嗨，我是汉尼拔·布勒斯。
This is "Ask a Grown Man." I just figured out how to use the Effects button, so I'm going to have this whole video in the Mirror effect and I don't care what you think about it.
这就是“问一个成年人”。我刚刚弄清楚如何使用“效果”按钮，因此我将在镜像效果中显示整个视频，我不在乎您对此有何看法。
I got a s-- oh, no. Oh, man.
我得到了一个——哦，不。哦，伙计。
I got two heads.
我有两个头。
Rahh!
啊！
I mean, look, we're dealing with comedians and musicians.
我的意思是，看，我们正在与喜剧演员和音乐家打交道。
They're not maybe the greatest grown men.
他们可能不是最伟大的成年男子。
Tavi Gevinson is the creator and editor-in-chief of Rookie Mag.
塔维·格文森 (Tavi Gevinson) 是《新秀杂志》的创始人兼主编。
"Ask a Grown Man" was her idea, which is ironic because Tavi was pretty much a grown-up even when she was a kid.
“问一个成年人”是她的想法，这很讽刺，因为塔维即使在还是个孩子的时候也几乎是一个成年人了。
Rookie Mag grew out of her fashion blog, Style Rookie, which she founded when she was 11.
Rookie Mag 源于她 11 岁时创立的时尚博客 Style Rookie。
And it got a huge amount of attention.
它引起了巨大的关注。
Pretty soon she was being flown around the world to fashion shows, written about in the press.
很快，她就被飞到世界各地参加时装秀，并被媒体报道。
And then, after founding Rookie Mag at 15, she remembered this advice column she had read in her back issues of Sassy magazine called "Dear Boy." And she thought, why don't we do something like that?
然后，在 15 岁创办 Rookie Mag 后，她想起了她在《Sassy》杂志过刊中读到的一个名为“亲爱的男孩”的建议专栏。她想，我们为什么不做这样的事情呢？
Though it isn't really a series she'd naturally gravitate toward herself.
尽管这并不是一个真正的系列，但她自然会被自己所吸引。
At least, when I was younger, I didn't really want advice from adults because I was so stubborn and defensive and was like, you could never possibly understand what I'm going through.
至少，当我年轻的时候，我并不真正需要成年人的建议，因为我是如此固执和防御性，就像，你永远不可能理解我正在经历什么。
But sometimes adults have really valuable advice.
但有时成年人的建议确实很有价值。
And if it's kind of presented to you by someone who you think is cool, you're like, OK, I'll take the good advice.
如果这是由你认为很酷的人向你提出的，你会说，好吧，我会接受这个好建议。
There's something really special, too, about like-- I think in one of the Sassy columns, I think a girl wrote in about a guy who was mean to her and Thurston Moore was like, tell him I'm going to kick his ass.
还有一些非常特别的东西，比如——我想在一个时髦的专栏中，我想一个女孩写了一个对她很刻薄的男人，瑟斯顿·摩尔就像是，告诉他我要踢他的屁股。
And it's like, if someone who you think is really cool says like, I'm on your team, that stays with you.
就像，如果你认为很酷的人说，我是你团队中的一员，那你就会留下来。
Rookie's posted more than 50 of these videos now, and not all of them with men.
Rookie 现已发布了 50 多个此类视频，而且并非全部都是男性视频。
There's also "Ask a Grown Woman," which many times is aimed at queer readers.
还有《询问成年女性》，很多时候是针对酷儿读者的。
So there are videos from entertainers like Tig Notaro, Cameron Esposito, Tegan and Sara, and some straight women, too.
其中有来自 Tig Notaro、Cameron Esposito、Tegan 和 Sara 等艺人以及一些异性恋女性的视频。
These days, they just refer to the series as "Ask a Grown."
如今，他们只是将该系列称为“问大人”。
But the thing about the grown men videos is that you've got these much older celebrities who suddenly, magically become proxies for teen boys-- the sullen, awkward often confusing boys that Rookie readers are dealing with at school every day.
但关于成年男性视频的问题是，这些年纪大得多的名人突然神奇地成为青少年男孩的代理人——新秀读者每天在学校遇到的闷闷不乐、笨拙、常常令人困惑的男孩。
Every grown-up answers four or five questions, give or take, sent in ahead of time.
每个成年人都会回答四五个提前发送的问题，无论是给予还是接受。
And a good number of them boil down to some version of, so he said this and I said this, and he said this and did this, and I said this and he did this.
其中很多都可以归结为某种版本，所以他说这个，我说这个，他说这个，做了这个，我说这个，他做了这个。
Does he like me?
他喜欢我吗？
Here's a question that was posed to Tunde Adebimpe from the band TV On the Radio.
以下是 TV On the Radio 乐队向 Tunde Adebimpe 提出的问题。
My best friend made me a mixtape and about 99% of the songs on it are love songs.
我最好的朋友给我制作了一张混音带，里面大约 99% 的歌曲都是情歌。
Is he trying to hint that he has feelings for me?
他是想暗示他对我有感觉吗？
Well, if he actually made you a cassette tape and played songs and recorded them onto an actual, physical cassette tape, then he's absolutely and completely in love with you because, who does that?
好吧，如果他真的为你制作了一盘盒式磁带，播放歌曲并将它们录制到实际的物理盒式磁带上，那么他绝对完全地爱着你，因为，谁做的呢？
So that's an easy answer.
所以这是一个简单的答案。
But some of "the does he like me?" questions are harder-- occasionally in a zen koan-ish kind of way.
但有些“他喜欢我吗？”问题更难——有时是以禅宗公案式的方式。
Does the amount of kisses on the end of a text show how much a guy likes you?
短信末尾的亲吻数量是否表明一个男人有多喜欢你？
This is BJ Novak from The Office and a bunch of other stuff.
我是 The Office 的 BJ Novak，还有其他一些人。
I've been texting a boy I like for about three months and he sends five to seven kisses even though I always send four.
我给一个我喜欢的男孩发短信大约三个月了，他送了五到七个吻，尽管我总是送四个。
OK.
好的。
If you've been texting for about three months and you still have no idea how either of you feels about the other, that is a sign that texting is not telling you very much information.
如果您已经发短信大约三个月了，但仍然不知道彼此对对方的感觉如何，则表明短信并没有告诉您太多信息。
If three months go by, six months go by, a year goes by and you're still wondering what the other person thinks, it does show you that maybe you can inch towards more direct communication, even if it's over text.
如果三个月过去了，六个月过去了，一年过去了，你仍然想知道对方的想法，这确实表明，也许你可以逐渐走向更直接的沟通，即使是通过短信。
So your actual question, five to seven kisses; you always send four.
所以你真正的问题是，五到七次吻；你总是发送四个。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Sometimes people overcompensate.
有时人们会过度补偿。
So if he doesn't like you that way, maybe he's trying to be very affectionate to balance things out.
因此，如果他不那样喜欢你，也许他正在努力表现出深情来平衡事情。
Always think of the opposite reason that a thing can be happening, because often that's how humans work.
总是想事情发生的相反原因，因为通常这就是人类的工作方式。
I feel like this is when the series works best-- when it acts as a kind of handbook for human behavior handed from an adult to a kid.
我觉得这是这个系列最有效的时候——它就像一本从成人传给孩子的人类行为手册。
The idea that sometimes people behave in the opposite way from what they're feeling-- when you're a grown-up, that seems like something you always knew.
有时人们的行为方式与他们的感受相反——当你是一个成年人时，这似乎是你一直都知道的事情。
But of course there was a time when you didn't, when just being alive every day felt like being in a country where you didn't speak the language, especially regarding the opposite sex.
但当然，也有一段时间你不这么认为，每天活着都感觉就像生活在一个你不会说语言的国家，尤其是在异性方面。
I feel crazy saying this-- Sean Cole Again, Tavi Gevinson.
我说这句话感觉很疯狂——再次是肖恩·科尔，塔维·格文森。
--because I'm like, oh my god, why does it sound like I grew up in a box where I wasn't allowed to ever have contact with another boy or something?
——因为我想，天哪，为什么听起来我像是在一个不允许我与另一个男孩或其他东西接触的盒子里长大的？
But I really do think, if I think really hard back to middle school and high school, even--
但我确实认为，如果我认真回想一下初中和高中，甚至——
High school which, for Tavi, was about three years ago.
对于塔维来说，高中已经是大约三年前的事了。
--it did feel like I needed a translator for what those guys were thinking.
——感觉我确实需要一个翻译来解释那些人的想法。
Like, a girl's like, why is this guy teasing me?
就像一个女孩子一样，为什么这个家伙要取笑我？
And an adult man will be like, because he likes you.
而一个成年男人会这样，因为他喜欢你。
And a guy her own age will be like, because you're stupid.
和她同龄的人会这样，因为你很蠢。
Because it makes sense.
因为它有道理。
Apart from that "does he like me?" line of questioning, you can organize most of the other love-related questions into just a handful of subcategories.
除此之外，“他喜欢我吗？”按照一系列问题，您可以将大多数其他与爱情相关的问题组织成少数几个子类别。
There are a bunch of questions about kissing.
关于接吻，有很多问题。
Do you think it's possible to kiss someone and remain just friends?
你认为亲吻某人后仍然只是朋友吗？
How do you go about kissing someone for the first time, anyway?
无论如何，你第一次亲吻某人会怎样？
Still a good question.
仍然是一个好问题。
And there's the subcategory of, how do I meet people that I find attractive?
还有一个子类别，我如何结识我认为有吸引力的人？
And sub-subcategory, once I do, what's my move?
还有子子类，一旦我这样做了，我的举动是什么？
This is Jimmy Fallon.
这是吉米·法伦。
Jimmy Fallon Perfect person to ask.
吉米·法伦 (Jimmy Fallon) 是个适合提问的人。
I've flirted with so many shy boys growing up.
我从小就和很多害羞的男孩调情过。
Don't be too aggressive.
不要太激进。
Maybe he's shy because he thinks that you're going to hurt him in the end or you're going to embarrass him in front of his friends or something.
也许他很害羞，因为他认为你最终会伤害他，或者你会让他在他的朋友面前难堪或其他什么。
Then there's the troubling subcategory of, I feel like I'm too short/tall/fat/unattractive in some way.
还有一个令人不安的子类别，我觉得我在某种程度上太矮/太高/太胖/没有吸引力。
How will I get boys to like me?
怎样才能让男生喜欢我？
And of course, all the grown men are reassuring and say attractiveness is subjective.
当然，所有成年男性都表示吸引力是主观的。
Wildly subjective.
非常主观。
Sean Cole You're beautiful the way you are.
肖恩·科尔 你本来的样子就很美丽。
All the things you'd expect them to say.
所有你期望他们说的话。
But then there's this one moment in the video with Thom Yorke and Nigel Godrich of Radiohead that is really the platonic version of the answer you would want.
但在视频中，Radiohead 的 Thom Yorke 和 Nigel Godrich 的这一时刻确实是你想要的答案的柏拉图式版本。
A girl asks about a scar she has in the middle of her chest.
一个女孩询问她胸部中间的疤痕。
She had surgery.
她做了手术。
And she says, I'm afraid that no one will find me attractive and they'll think it's ugly.
她说，我担心没有人会觉得我有吸引力，他们会认为我很丑。
And Thom Yorke points out one of his eyes.
汤姆·约克指着他的一只眼睛。
This doesn't work properly.
这不能正常工作。
When I was born, I had several operations because I was born with this one completely shut.
当我出生时，我做了几次手术，因为我出生时这一次手术是完全关闭的。
And now it sort of opens, but when I do this, I can't-- so.
现在它有点打开了，但是当我这样做时，我不能——所以。
It's wonky.
这很奇怪。
It doesn't work the same way.
它的工作方式并不相同。
When I was your age, I was convinced that girls would think that was really not very nice at all.
当我在你这个年纪的时候，我确信女孩们会认为这真的不太好。
That's all right.
没关系。
Thom Yorke That's fine.
汤姆·约克 没关系。
And I worked in this pub and this old woman, she was so funny.
我在这家酒吧工作，还有一位老妇人，她很有趣。
She used to come in all the time.
她过去常常进来。
She was the first person who really said to me, it's the nicest thing about you.
她是第一个真正对我说“这是你身上最好的事情”的人。
So you'd be surprised.
所以你会感到惊讶。
So everyone is imperfect.
所以每个人都是不完美的。
No one has a symmetrical face.
没有人有一张对称的脸。
No one's body is perfect.
没有人的身体是完美的。
Don't worry.
不用担心。
Not all of the grown men do this good a job.
并不是所有的成年男子都能做得这么好。
Tavi told me every now and they've had to edit out someone saying, eh, none of this will matter in a couple of years.
塔维时常告诉我，他们不得不删除一些人说，呃，几年后这一切都不再重要了。
You're just a kid.
你只是个孩子。
What do you know?
你知道什么？
And then occasionally the guys just don't know what to say, or they say something kind of questionable.
有时，这些人就是不知道该说什么，或者说一些有问题的话。
Ruby from England wrote in to ask why porn is so degrading to women and Seth Rogen said, well, a lot of it is degrading to women.
来自英国的鲁比（Ruby）写信询问为什么色情片对女性如此有辱人格，塞斯·罗根（Seth Rogen）说，嗯，很多色情内容都对女性有辱人格。
But I think there's a lot of pornography that I would say is on the more romantic side of things on the grand scale of pornography.
但我认为有很多色情作品在规模宏大的色情作品中处于更浪漫的一面。
If what you're looking for is that, I would suggest browsing the female-friendly categories of the free porn websites on the internet.
如果您正在寻找的是这样的内容，我建议您浏览互联网上免费色情网站的女性友好类别。
Female-friendly.
女性友好。
Yeah, I would say that's not a good answer.
是的，我想说这不是一个好的答案。
Probably the most confident question answerers are the dads, like Killer Mike from Run the Jewels.
最自信的问题回答者可能是爸爸们，比如《奔跑吧珠宝》中的杀手迈克。
Also Judd Apatow, Terry Crews, Stephen Colbert.
还有贾德·阿帕托、特里·克鲁斯、斯蒂芬·科尔伯特。
This question clearly pushed a couple of buttons for Colbert.
这个问题显然给科尔伯特按下了几个按钮。
My dad won't let me sleep at my boyfriend's house and there is no real reason for that.
我爸爸不让我睡在我男朋友家里，而且没有任何真正的理由。
I assume it's because he's very close-minded about sex, but when I try to discuss it with him he gets very angry and refuses to talk about it.
我认为这是因为他对性的看法非常封闭，但当我试图与他讨论这个问题时，他非常生气并拒绝谈论它。
I've been with my boyfriend for a year and my whole family approves of him.
我和男朋友在一起一年了，全家人都很认可他。
What do you think is the best way to talk to a dad like this to convince him to let me sleep at my boyfriend's house?
你认为与这样的父亲交谈以说服他让我睡在男朋友家里的最佳方式是什么？
Eve, age 19.
伊芙，19岁。
Eve, I'm going to disappoint you here.
伊芙，我会让你失望的。
He might have his own reasons, so give your father that much credit.
他可能有他自己的理由，所以请相信你的父亲。
I don't know your dad.
我不认识你爸爸。
I don't know what his reasons are.
我不知道他的理由是什么。
One reason could be that, while he may not actually be close-minded about sex-- after all, you exist, so he's fairly open-minded about it-- but he may think that sex and a relationship aren't the same thing.
一个原因可能是，虽然他实际上对性的看法可能并不封闭——毕竟有你的存在，所以他对此相当开放——但他可能认为性和一段关系不是一回事。
And he might be someone who's traditional and wants you to be married or even be older before he is comfortable with you having a physical relationship with a boy or a girl.
他可能是一个传统的人，希望你结婚，甚至在他对你与男孩或女孩发生身体关系感到满意之前，希望你结婚。
When you try to discuss it with him, he gets very angry and refuses to talk about it.
当你试图与他讨论这件事时，他非常生气并拒绝谈论这件事。
Well, I mean, maybe he's embarrassed to talk about sex with his daughter because it's a very intimate thing.
嗯，我的意思是，也许他不好意思和女儿谈论性，因为这是一件非常亲密的事情。
And that's not unusual.
这并不罕见。
Your dad's not off the reservation here.
你爸爸在这里并没有被排除在外。
And I realize I just made a reference to reservations, which is probably insensitive to Native Americans.
我意识到我刚刚提到了保留地，这对美洲原住民来说可能不敏感。
OK.
好的。
Yeah, I do think the best ones are when they are dads, so their angle is more paternal.
是的，我确实认为最好的方式是当他们成为父亲时，所以他们的角度更具父性。
Well, it's like, these girls are like almost proxies.
嗯，就像，这些女孩几乎就像代理人一样。
The same way that the men are like proxies for the boys that they're having to deal with, these girls are like proxies for their daughters practically.
就像男人就像他们必须打交道的男孩的代理人一样，这些女孩实际上就像他们女儿的代理人。
Ugh.
啊。
Yeah.
是的。
No, you're right.
不，你是对的。
It made it all sound really creepy, but you're right.
这一切听起来真的很令人毛骨悚然，但你是对的。
And then there's what might be the most moving moment in the "Ask a Grown" videos, which isn't from one of the guys, nor is it about boy trouble.
然后，“问大人”视频中最感人的时刻可能不是来自其中一个人，也不是关于男孩的麻烦。
And it also makes you realize that the distance between what the teens are going through and what the grown-ups are going through isn't always so vast.
它还让你意识到青少年正在经历的事情和成年人正在经历的事情之间的距离并不总是那么遥远。
This girl wrote in and said, my mom recently passed away and I feel like I cannot imagine someone ever loving me as much as she did, and now I've lost that.
这个女孩写信说，我妈妈最近去世了，我觉得我无法想象有人像她一样爱我，现在我已经失去了这一点。
I keep wondering, when someone dies, where does that love go?
我一直在想，当一个人去世后，他的爱去哪儿了？
I just feel completely alone and unloved, which is horrible because I used to be reminded every day that someone loves me.
我只是感到完全孤独和不被爱，这很可怕，因为我每天都会被提醒有人爱我。
And Tig Notaro has-- a lot of her work has been about coping with her mom's death and so we sent her that question as some of the ones she could choose from.
蒂格·诺塔罗（Tig Notaro）——她的很多工作都是关于应对她母亲的去世，所以我们向她发送了这个问题，作为她可以选择的一些问题。
Everything seems pointless because the only person who had real love for me is gone and I didn't make the most of it when I could.
一切似乎都毫无意义，因为唯一真正爱我的人已经走了，而我却没有充分利用它。
Is there any way to come to terms with that?
有什么办法可以解决这个问题吗？
Signed, The Letter C.
签名，字母 C.
The Letter C, first of all, I am very sorry about your mother.
字母C，首先，我对你母亲感到非常抱歉。
As far as your mother being the only person that truly loved you, I'm certain other people in your life love you tremendously and that's where the love can go.
就你的母亲是唯一真正爱你的人而言，我确信你生命中的其他人也非常爱你，这就是爱的所在。
And a really great gift to give your mother is to truly spend time with good people around you and cherish the time you have with them and appreciate who they are and what they are in your life.
送给母亲的一份真正伟大的礼物就是真正与周围的好人共度时光，珍惜与他们在一起的时间，欣赏他们是谁以及他们在你生活中的地位。
That's a really great gift to you, your mother, and other people.
这对你、你的母亲和其他人来说真是一份很棒的礼物。
So being present and aware of your time with people-- that's really where the love can go.
因此，活在当下并意识到你与人相处的时间——这才是爱真正可以去的地方。
That's what I'm doing, and it's helpful.
这就是我正在做的事情，而且很有帮助。
I hope this has been helpful.
我希望这对您有所帮助。
Thankfully, the girl who asked that question actually found Tig's video and watched it and she commented on the website.
值得庆幸的是，提出这个问题的女孩确实找到了蒂格的视频并观看了它，并且她在网站上发表了评论。
If you go to the page, you can read it.
如果您转到该页面，则可以阅读它。
She said, in part, "I sent that question to Rookie about my mother a few months ago.
她部分地说道：“几个月前，我向 Rookie 发送了有关我母亲的问题。
I eagerly, and perhaps naively, clicked upon every "Ask" article that appeared expecting an answer or just an indication that I had been heard.
我热切地，也许是天真地，点击了每一篇似乎期待答案或只是表明我已被听到的“询问”文章。
After a bit, my enthusiasm began to wane as my question wasn't featured.
过了一会儿，我的热情开始减弱，因为我的问题没有被提出。
I completely forgot about it, in fact, until this video.
事实上，直到这个视频，我才完全忘记了它。
I am now shaking and crying.
我现在颤抖着哭泣。
The mere fact that someone has replied is amazing, but the enormous deal that Tig Notaro has answered is fucking mind-blowing.
仅仅有人回复这一事实就令人惊讶，但 Tig Notaro 回复的巨大金额真是令人兴奋。
I have been through so much shit and been stuck in this tiny bubble of despair and self-hatred, feeling so small and weak, and the fact that someone cares is crazy and has kind of taken me out of that.
我经历了太多的事情，陷入了绝望和自我憎恨的小泡沫中，感觉自己如此渺小和软弱，而有人关心的事实是疯狂的，它让我摆脱了这种状态。
So I would just like to say a major thank you from the bottom of my heart.
所以我想从心底里向你们表示衷心的感谢。
You have no idea how much you have helped me.
你不知道你帮了我多大的忙。
Sean Cole is one of the producers of our program.
肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制作人之一。
Rookie is starting a podcast next month.
Rookie 将于下个月开始播客。
If you have a teenage girl in your life, or you are a teenage girl, I have to say Rookie is amazing.
如果你的生活中有一个十几岁的女孩，或者你就是一个十几岁的女孩，我不得不说Rookie太棒了。
rookiemag.com.
rookiemag.com。
The other "Ask a Grown" videos are there.
其他“问大人”视频也在那里。
I made one, by the way, years ago.
顺便说一句，我几年前就做了一个。
It was explained to me that I wasn't so well-known to the teenage readers and could I make animal balloons to keep the interest level up.
有人向我解释说，青少年读者对我不太熟悉，我可以制作动物气球来保持兴趣。
So that's there.
就这样。
Act Two, Enemy of the People vs. The People.
第二幕，人民之敌与人民之敌。
It's a sign of adulthood that you're actually a functioning normal adult to find yourself asking questions like, what am I doing wrong?
这是成年的标志，你实际上是一个正常的成年人，但你发现自己会问这样的问题：我做错了什么？
Why are you so upset with me?
你为什么对我这么生气？
Small children do not ask these questions.
小孩子不会问这些问题。
These questions are for adults.
这些问题是针对成年人的。
They're hard, and often you're not going to like the answers.
它们很难，而且通常你不会喜欢它们的答案。
In this next story, a grown-up turns to other grown-ups with just these questions.
在下一个故事中，一个成年人带着这些问题转向其他成年人。
Here's David Kestenbaum.
请听大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆的报道。
Mike Wilson is the editor of the Dallas Morning News, the newspaper, and about six months ago, he started to make a pretty serious effort to try to talk to the people who hate his guts.
迈克·威尔逊是《达拉斯晨报》的编辑，大约六个月前，他开始做出相当认真的努力，试图与那些讨厌他的人交谈。
They were easy to find.
他们很容易找到。
Right outside his window holding signs.
就在他的窗外举着标语。
They said things like, boycott Dallas Morning News, sort of chanting, and obviously upset with us.
他们说了类似抵制《达拉斯晨报》之类的话，还高呼口号，显然对我们感到不满。
Oh, no. No. David Kestenbaum The protesters were angry at the paper because the editorial board had just endorsed Hillary Clinton, which was the first time the paper had endorsed a Democrat for president in, oh, quite a while.
哦，不。不。大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 抗议者对该报感到愤怒，因为编辑委员会刚刚支持希拉里·克林顿，这是该报在相当长一段时间内第一次支持民主党总统候选人。
Yes.
是的。
It was at least since the Roosevelt administration.
至少从罗斯福政府以来就是这样。
Like 75 years or something.
就像75年什么的。
Mike Wilson Yes.
迈克·威尔逊 是的。
Some papers, the readers are largely Democrat or largely Republican.
有些报纸的读者主要是民主党人或主要是共和党人。
But the Dallas Morning News, there's a split in a pretty serious way.
但《达拉斯晨报》却存在相当严重的分歧。
Readers in Dallas tend to be Democrats, but the surrounding region is very red, very conservative.
达拉斯的读者往往是民主党人，但周边地区非常红，非常保守。
And apparently, now pretty angry with the newspaper.
显然，现在对报纸非常生气。
So I went and got on the elevator and walked out there and introduced myself.
于是我就上了电梯，走出去做了自我介绍。
And I was curious.
我很好奇。
I wanted to know what would they say about what we'd written, and would they be interested in hearing any of my point of view about it?
我想知道他们对我们所写的内容有何看法，他们是否有兴趣听听我对此的观点？
The answer?
答案是什么呢？
Sort of.
有点像。
He walked up to the crowd, introduced himself, said he was the editor of the paper.
他走到人群中，自我介绍，说他是报纸的编辑。
There was shouting, then talking.
先是喊叫声，然后是说话声。
It was civil.
这是文明的。
It ended with selfies with the editor.
最后以与编辑的自拍结束。
Then Mike came back inside, and they kept protesting.
然后迈克回到里面，他们继续抗议。
Things didn't get any better after the election.
选举后情况并没有好转。
In fact, Mike began to worry that some readers were losing faith in the paper.
事实上，迈克开始担心一些读者对报纸失去信心。
They weren't just upset with the editorial stance.
他们不仅仅对编辑的立场感到不满。
They were upset with the day-to-day journalism.
他们对日常新闻报道感到不安。
Around this time, President Trump was tweeting things like, "the fake news media is going crazy with their conspiracy theories and blind hatred." And he called the media the enemy of the people.
大约在这个时候，特朗普总统在推特上发了这样的言论：“假新闻媒体的阴谋论和盲目仇恨正在疯狂。”他称媒体是人民的敌人。
So in response, Mike wrote a column, which was lighthearted in parts but also pointed.
因此，迈克写了一篇专栏作为回应，其中部分内容很轻松，但也很尖锐。
Quote, "in my job, I oversee about 250 enemies of the people.
引用：“在我的工作中，我监督了大约 250 名人民的敌人。
We have enemies of the people who make maps, cover high school baseball, send tweets about the Cowboys, assign book reviews, critique restaurants, track North Texas home prices, and write profiles of tech entrepreneurs.
我们的敌人是那些制作地图、报道高中棒球、发送有关牛仔队的推文、分配书评、批评餐馆、跟踪北德克萨斯州房价以及撰写科技企业家简介的人。
One enemy of the people spends his days talking to grieving families and carefully crafting stories of the dead." Email responses poured in, like this one.
人民的敌人之一整天都在与悲伤的家庭交谈，并精心编造死者的故事。”电子邮件回复如潮水般涌来，就像这封邮件一样。
"Please pass the tissue so I can wipe away the tears for the media.
“请递纸巾，让我为媒体擦干眼泪。
President Trump was obviously specifically referring to the political reporting from the mainstream media regarding his presidency.
特朗普总统显然专门指的是主流媒体对其总统任期的政治报道。
His comment may have been overbroad, but here is the point.
他的评论可能过于宽泛，但这就是重点。
The mainstream media, including the Dallas Morning News, are the propaganda arm of the Democratic Party."
包括《达拉斯晨报》在内的主流媒体是民主党的宣传武器。”
There were positive ones, too, but it was a punishing experience reading the emails that morning.
也有积极的一面，但那天早上阅读这些电子邮件是一次痛苦的经历。
And Mike didn't want to just ignore the bad ones.
迈克不想忽视那些不好的事情。
So he decided to write back to that guy.
所以他决定给那个人回信。
Yeah.
是的。
He might not have meant it as an invitation, but I tried to take it as one.
他可能无意将其视为邀请，但我试图将其视为邀请。
So Mike-- who, remember, is the editor of the paper; he's got meetings and stuff going on all day long-- he starts corresponding with a bunch of the people who'd written in with kind of limited success.
迈克——记住，他是报纸的编辑；他整天都在开会和做其他事情——他开始与一群写信但收效甚微的人通信。
I'm having a lot of conversations with readers where they say, you're not fair.
我与读者进行了很多对话，他们说，你不公平。
And I say, am too.
我说，我也是。
And they say, are not.
他们说，不是。
And I feel like that's kind of not working.
我觉得这有点行不通。
And here, Mike does this thing that just seems so rare in situations where people do not agree about something.
在这里，迈克做了一件在人们对某件事意见不一致的情况下似乎很少见的事情。
He invites the other side to come in and talk face to face.
他邀请对方进来面对面交谈。
I love this as a strategy for healing the divides of our nation.
我喜欢将此作为弥合我们国家分歧的策略。
I just don't know how well it works.
我只是不知道它的效果如何。
The first person he asked said no, but the guy who wrote the "please pass the tissue" email agreed to come in.
他问的第一个人说不，但写“请递纸巾”电子邮件的人同意进来。
And so did this other reader who was so upset when the paper sent him a renewal notice that he'd thrown it in the trash.
另一位读者也是如此，当报纸向他发送续订通知时，他非常沮丧，以至于他把它扔进了垃圾桶。
Mike wanted these guys to understand more about the newspaper they were so angry with.
迈克希望这些人更多地了解他们所愤怒的报纸。
He wanted them to sit in on an editorial meeting where the senior staff discusses what goes on the front page.
他希望他们参加一次编辑会议，高级职员讨论头版上的内容。
But also he wanted to understand more about them.
但他也想更多地了解他们。
He wanted to know who they were, not just as angry emailers.
他想知道他们是谁，而不仅仅是愤怒的电子邮件发件人。
As people.
作为人。
I wanted to know, too, so I went to visit them before they came in.
我也想知道，所以在他们进来之前我就去拜访了他们。
It turns out the two people Mike invited in, they do not think the Dallas Morning News is the enemy of the people.
事实证明，迈克邀请进来的两个人，他们并不认为《达拉斯晨报》是人民的敌人。
They love the paper.
他们喜欢这张纸。
Or they used to.
或者他们曾经这样做过。
The guy who wrote saying he was thinking of giving up his subscription is also named Mike.
写信说他正在考虑放弃订阅的人也叫迈克。
Mike Standish.
迈克·斯坦迪什。
He's 60 years old.
他今年 60 岁了。
Businessman.
商人。
Blunt, but tries to be polite.
直言不讳，但尽量保持礼貌。
Uses the word stupid, then apologizes for it.
使用愚蠢这个词，然后为此道歉。
I asked him how long he'd been reading the paper.
我问他读报纸多久了。
Oh, gosh.
哦，天哪。
Since I was young.
从我年轻的时候起。
I mean, I remember when the Dallas Morning News didn't show up at 5:30 in the morning, I would literally sit out in a lawn chair, eating my Wheaties, waiting for the guy to show up and then giving him a hard time when he was late.
我的意思是，我记得当《达拉斯晨报》早上 5:30 没有出现时，我会坐在草坪椅子上，吃着我的小麦，等待那个人出现，然后在他迟到的时候狠狠地折磨他。
Before that, when he was a boy, he told me he used to throw the paper, meaning deliver it on his Stingray bicycle, bag stuffed with giant Sunday papers, tossing them at house after house.
在那之前，当他还是个孩子的时候，他告诉我他常常扔报纸，意思是用他的黄貂鱼自行车来递送报纸，袋子里塞满了巨大的周日报纸，把它们扔到一个又一个的房子。
The other man is a doctor.
另一个人是一名医生。
His name is Stace Bradshaw, and he is also the kind of reader newspaper editors dream of.
他的名字叫Stace Bradshaw，他也是报纸编辑们梦想的那种读者。
He gets the actual, physical newspaper delivered.
他收到了真正的实体报纸。
Reads it after he's walked the dog, before he gets his daughter up for school.
他遛完狗之后，送女儿上学之前读了这本书。
Though these days, the newspaper's kind of been driving him nuts.
尽管这些天，报纸有点让他抓狂。
He finds himself writing notes in the margins in pen and also writing that "please pass the tissue" email.
他发现自己用笔在页边空白处写着笔记，还写着“请递纸巾”电子邮件。
I admit I was a little snarky at first because I guess I was a little upset.
我承认一开始我有点尖酸刻薄，因为我想我有点沮丧。
It was a catharsis.
这是一种宣泄。
It was cathartic to write it and hit send.
写下它并点击发送是一种宣泄。
And I thought it would just go off into the ether and I would never hear anything back from him, but at least I felt good about it.
我以为这一切都会消失殆尽，我永远不会听到他的任何回复，但至少我对此感觉良好。
And then when I got a response back--
然后当我收到回复时——
How long?
多长时间？
Stace Bradshaw Let's see.
斯塔斯·布拉德肖 让我们看看。
What's the time on this?
这件事现在几点了？
I think I sent it at 9:31, and the first response I got back was at 9:49.
我想我是在 9:31 发送的，而我收到的第一个回复是在 9:49。
So literally 18 minutes later, I got a response.
18 分钟后，我就收到了回复。
And then we exchanged several emails back and forth.
然后我们来回交换了几封电子邮件。
And I was very impressed with that, that the editor would take the time to respond back to me.
令我印象深刻的是，编辑会花时间回复我。
Stace and Mike told me they are fine with stories that are tough on Trump.
斯塔斯和迈克告诉我，他们对那些对特朗普严厉的故事没有意见。
They just feel like the mainstream media coverage of things feels skewed these days.
他们只是觉得现在主流媒体对事情的报道感觉有偏差。
There are stories about protests against the pipeline, but not so many about the argument for the pipeline, or on education.
有一些关于反对管道的抗议的故事，但关于管道或教育的争论并不多。
Mike Standish showed me a recent edition of the Dallas Morning News.
迈克·斯坦迪什给我看了最新一期的《达拉斯晨报》。
The lead story on the opinion section was headlined "Public School Saved My Special Needs Kid." There was a colorful illustration of a little girl with giant butterfly wings.
意见部分的头条新闻标题是“公立学校拯救了我的特殊需要孩子”。有一幅彩色插图，画的是一个长着巨大蝴蝶翅膀的小女孩。
There was an opposing piece below making a school choice argument, but the headline was a lot smaller.
下面有一篇反对择校的文章，但标题要小得多。
Mike and Stace say, as a whole, the newspaper just feels like it's coming from a particular mindset.
迈克和斯塔斯说，总的来说，这份报纸给人的感觉就像是来自一种特定的心态。
They feel like it's put together by liberals who are trying not to be biased but they just have this blind spot, like they have a hard time seeing how the stuff they write can come across to conservatives.
他们觉得它是由自由主义者拼凑而成的，他们试图不带偏见，但他们只是有一个盲点，就像他们很难看到他们写的东西会如何被保守派接受。
Just before 3 o'clock last Tuesday afternoon, Stace and Mike both arrived at the Dallas Morning News building.
上周二下午三点左右，斯塔斯和迈克双双抵达达拉斯晨报大楼。
And just a quick note about the building.
关于这座建筑的简单说明。
The entire middle section, the main architectural feature, is what looks like an enormous stone tablet 3 stories high, with a quote on it from the newspaper's founder in giant letters.
整个中间部分是主要的建筑特色，看起来像一块三层楼高的巨大石碑，上面用大字写着报纸创始人的一句话。
It's as if Moses had brought back a second, lesser-known set of commandments for journalists.
就好像摩西为记者带回了第二套鲜为人知的戒律。
We crane our necks back.
我们把脖子向后伸。
Mike Standish reads the last line.
迈克·斯坦迪什读了最后一行。
"Acknowledge the right of the people to get from the newspaper both sides of every important question." They need to circle that one.
“承认人民有权从报纸上了解每个重要问题的双方。”他们需要圈出那个。
That last part.
最后一部分。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Hey, I'm Mike.
嘿，我是迈克。
Stace Bradshaw I'm Stace Bradshaw.
斯泰斯·布拉德肖 我是斯泰斯·布拉德肖。
Good to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Mike Standish.
迈克·斯坦迪什。
Mike.
麦克风。
Mike Wilson Hey, Mike, nice to meet you, too.
迈克·威尔逊 嘿，迈克，我也很高兴认识你。
You guys want to come in for a few minutes?
你们想进来几分钟吗？
When they meet with Mike Wilson, the editor, everyone is on their best behavior.
当他们见到编辑迈克·威尔逊时，每个人都表现得很好。
They immediately talk about the one part of the paper they all agree is truly excellent, the sports section.
他们立即谈论了他们都认为论文中真正优秀的部分，即体育部分。
Especially football season.
尤其是足球赛季。
David Kestenbaum And then Mike Wilson leads the way to a conference room for the front page editors meeting.
David Kestenbaum 然后 Mike Wilson 带领大家前往会议室，参加头版编辑会议。
There are worn-out chairs, a long table, and about a dozen people.
里面有破旧的椅子，一张长桌子，大约有十几个人。
Everyone sits down and the meeting starts.
每个人都坐下来，会议开始。
I really appreciated the-- David Kestenbaum The editors of the various sections go over the stories of the day and the ones they think could run on the front page.
我真的很欣赏——大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum） 各个版块的编辑都会仔细阅读当天的故事以及他们认为可以登上头版的故事。
There is a story a reporter had uncovered about a secret executive retreat that Toyota was building up in the hills, complete with a private racetrack.
一位记者揭露了一个关于丰田在山上建造的秘密行政休养所的故事，该休养地配有私人赛道。
They had aerial photos of it.
他们有它的航拍照片。
There was a story about the fire and police pension fund.
有一个关于消防和警察养老基金的故事。
One about a theater director who had been shot through the mouth but was returning to the stage.
其中一个故事讲述了一位戏剧导演的嘴中弹但正在重返舞台的故事。
Wire stories about the WikiLeaks CIA document and the Republican health care bill.
报道有关维基解密的中央情报局文件和共和党医疗保健法案的故事。
And then there was this one.
然后就有了这个。
Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly was in town today.
国土安全部部长约翰·凯利今天在城里。
We really didn't know what he was going to talk about.
我们真的不知道他要说什么。
It was kind of an unannounced meeting as he was making a swing down toward the border.
当他向边境发起进攻时，这有点像是一场未经事先通知的会议。
He talked about a lot of stuff that we couldn't use.
他讲了很多我们用不到的东西。
But then he confirmed what he confirmed to CNN yesterday that the Department is looking at a plan to separate children from their parents at the border as a way to kind of deter refugees from trying to come into the US.
但随后他证实了他昨天向美国有线电视新闻网证实的消息，即该部门正在考虑一项计划，将儿童与父母在边境分开，以阻止难民试图进入美国。
Essentially, it's kind of a plan that uses fear as a deterrent.
从本质上讲，这是一种利用恐惧作为威慑手段的计划。
So there's a bit of irony in it because a lot of the families that are coming up here obviously are trying to flee extreme violence.
所以这有一点讽刺意味，因为很多来到这里的家庭显然是在试图逃离极端暴力。
A little bit of fear is maybe not going to work with them.
一点点恐惧可能对他们不起作用。
I looked over, but I couldn't get a read on how this was all playing with the two visitors.
我看了看，但我无法理解这两个访客是如何玩弄这一切的。
The editors voted on what they thought should go on the front page.
编辑们对他们认为应该出现在头版的内容进行了投票。
Mike would make the final decisions later.
迈克稍后会做出最终决定。
And the meeting broke up.
于是会议就散了。
I pulled Stace Bradshaw, the doctor, aside.
我把医生斯塔斯·布拉德肖拉到一边。
He told me that story about how the US might start separating children from their parents at the border, he worried about how that might get portrayed in the paper.
他告诉我关于美国可能如何开始在边境将儿童与父母分开的故事，他担心报纸上可能会如何描述这一情况。
I'm thinking there's got to be a lot more behind that.
我想这背后一定有更多的事情。
That sounds terrible.
听起来很糟糕。
That sounds very nefarious and I find it hard to believe that that's really what it is.
这听起来非常邪恶，我很难相信事实就是如此。
There's got to be something a lot more that's out there being misinterpreted.
一定还有更多的东西被误解了。
But I'm sitting there thinking, OK, I can see what kind of articles and what kind of headlines this is going to generate.
但我坐在那里想，好吧，我可以看到这会产生什么样的文章和什么样的头条新闻。
And it's probably going to be with incomplete information and probably not fair.
而且它可能会包含不完整的信息，而且可能不公平。
But overall, he said the meaning seemed surprisingly boring.
但总的来说，他说这个意思似乎令人惊讶地无聊。
He meant that in a good way, like professional.
他的意思是好的，就像专业的一样。
I was just struck by how ordinary, matter of fact it was.
事实上，我只是对它的平凡感到震惊。
You see that they don't have horns and they're not out to be sinister.
你看，它们没有角，也没有恶意。
Well, again, I've had visions of them all sitting around the water cooler and ripping on Republicans and ripping on Trump.
好吧，我再次看到他们都坐在饮水机旁攻击共和党人和特朗普。
And also, it's good to talk to people one on one and realize that they don't even realize necessarily what you're thinking.
而且，与人们一对一交谈并意识到他们甚至不一定意识到你在想什么是件好事。
Stace went in to sit down with Mike Wilson, the editor, in his office.
史黛斯走进编辑迈克·威尔逊的办公室，与他一起坐下。
Two people trying to talk through this thing our country seems to be wrestling with.
两个人试图讨论我们国家似乎正在努力解决的这件事。
Is the mainstream media biased?
主流媒体有偏见吗？
They started with smaller stuff.
他们从较小的事情开始。
Where are you from?
你从哪来？
Do you have kids?
你有孩子吗？
And then Mike Wilson brought up their email exchange.
然后迈克·威尔逊提出了他们的电子邮件往来。
So let me ask you about how our conversation began.
那么让我问你我们的谈话是如何开始的。
I started.
我已开始。
I wrote this article about defending my people against being called enemies of the people by the president.
我写这篇文章是为了保护我的人民不被总统称为人民的敌人。
And I got a lot of letters about that.
我收到了很多关于此事的来信。
Yours struck me because you started with a pretty, I thought, funny line.
你的台词让我印象深刻，因为我觉得你的台词很漂亮，很有趣。
"Please pass the tissues so I can wipe away the tears for the media."
“请递纸巾，让我为媒体擦干眼泪。”
I spoke to a lot of readers during the campaign who said something similar to what you're saying, where they felt like the coverage was slanted against Donald Trump.
我在竞选期间与很多读者交谈过，他们的说法与你所说的类似，他们觉得这些报道是针对唐纳德·特朗普的。
And one of the things that I used to say in response was, this is a very unconventional candidate who makes a lot of news.
我曾经在回应中说过的一件事是，这是一位非常非传统的候选人，他制造了很多新闻。
The nature of news is something you've never seen before.
新闻的本质是你以前从未见过的。
Something that's unprecedented.
这是前所未有的事情。
And so from his very early statements about the Mexicans coming over the border to the Access Hollywood video that made so much news--
因此，从他很早就关于墨西哥人越过边境的言论，到引起如此多新闻的“进入好莱坞”视频——
He sucks the oxygen out of the room.
他把房间里的氧气吸了出去。
There's no question.
毫无疑问。
I was just wondering if you felt like-- he made so much news that it was impossible for us to not keep reporting it.
我只是想知道你是否觉得——他制造了如此多的新闻，我们不可能不继续报道。
But was it just that that you were reacting to?
但这只是你的反应吗？
Or did you feel like, above and beyond that, we were after him?
或者你是否觉得，除此之外，我们在追捕他？
What I've identified to myself personally is what I look at, and I look at three types of bias.
我个人对自己的认识是我所关注的，我关注三种类型的偏见。
And one type of bias is what I call story selection bias.
一种偏见就是我所说的故事选择偏见。
And a good example of that is there was a piece that was covering the stories and lives of illegal immigrants.
一个很好的例子是有一篇文章报道了非法移民的故事和生活。
And I thought those were good articles.
我认为这些都是好文章。
There was a good piece.
有一个很好的作品。
But then I'm thinking, I've lived here since 1995.
但后来我想，我从 1995 年就住在这里了。
I've never seen anyone select to do a story, an investigative report, on how does illegal immigration impact DISD-- Dallas Independent School District.
我从未见过有人选择撰写一篇关于非法移民如何影响 DISD（达拉斯独立学区）的故事、调查报告。
Mike, the editor, told me the paper has reported on this stuff.
编辑迈克告诉我报纸已经报道了这件事。
It comes up all the time in stories they do on the school system and how it's struggling to serve students.
在他们关于学校系统以及学校如何努力为学生服务的故事中，它总是出现。
But he told me they hadn't done a separate article about the economic effects of illegal immigration.
但他告诉我，他们还没有单独发表一篇关于非法移民的经济影响的文章。
And he said it sounded like a fine idea.
他说这听起来是个好主意。
Stace brought up another kind of bias he sees, which is just the choice of headlines and the particular wording used in the story.
斯塔斯提出了他所看到的另一种偏见，这只是标题的选择和故事中使用的特定措辞。
He'd brought in the newspaper from the day after Trump had given his big speech to Congress.
他带来了特朗普在国会发表重要演讲后第二天的报纸。
Stace had circled parts in pen and written notes next to this one news analysis story.
斯塔斯用笔圈出了部分内容，并在这篇新闻分析报道旁边写下了笔记。
Headline, "A Challenge to Think Big, with Few Details."
标题是“在细节很少的情况下大胆思考的挑战”。
--that I had says, "A Challenge to Think Big--".
——我曾说过，“大胆思考的挑战——”。
Well, just stop.
好吧，停下来吧。
You don't have to have the comma and "with Few Details." That makes it a negative.
您不必使用逗号和“很少有详细信息”。这使它成为负面的。
This type of speech was-- they never have details.
这种类型的演讲——他们从来没有细节。
They're not intended to have details.
他们无意提供细节。
And it's like he couldn't help himself.
而且就好像他无法控制自己一样。
He had to have that in there.
他必须把它放在那里。
I should speak to this because, if we're looking to find common ground in our conversation, we just found it.
我应该谈论这一点，因为如果我们想在谈话中找到共同点，我们就找到了。
It should've just said, "A Challenge to Think Big".
它应该只是说，“大胆思考的挑战”。
It's the president's speech to a joint session and he deserves to have his moment and that would have been a fine headline.
这是总统在一次联席会议上的讲话，他应该得到他的时刻，这将是一个很好的标题。
And what the article explained, whether there's details or not, it doesn't have to be in the headlines.
而文章所解释的内容，无论有没有细节，都不一定要出现在头条新闻中。
And then in the same article, sentence number two talks about-- first sentence, "President Donald Trump challenged the nation to think big Tuesday night, to set aside divisions and fend off terrorism, poverty, criminal, and unfair trade deals." Fair enough.
然后在同一篇文章中，第二句话谈到了第一句话，“唐纳德·特朗普总统要求全国在周二晚上思考大局，搁置分歧，抵御恐怖主义、贫困、犯罪和不公平贸易交易。”很公平。
I think that's great.
我认为那太好了。
But then he throws in a one-sentence paragraph.
但随后他插入了一句话段落。
"But the divisions he's sown made his pleas for unity a hard sell in his first address to Congress," as if there were no division in the country.
“但他所播下的分裂使得他在第一次向国会发表的讲话中呼吁团结的呼吁很难被接受”，就好像这个国家没有分裂一样。
Everybody's happy and getting along.
大家都很开心，相处融洽。
There was no division with Obama.
与奥巴马没有分歧。
But now Trump's come on the scene and he's sown division throughout the land.
但现在特朗普出现了，他在全国各地播下了分裂的种子。
And I'm thinking, that's ridiculous.
我想，这太荒谬了。
Donald Trump is a product of the division we have, but you're hanging it on him.
唐纳德·特朗普是我们这个部门的产物，但你却把它归咎于他。
A product of the division?
部门的产品？
Or hasn't contributed at all to the division?
或者根本没有为该部门做出任何贡献？
I think he's contributed, definitely, but I also think he's a product of a division.
我认为他确实做出了贡献，但我也认为他是一个部门的产物。
But I don't think he started it.
但我不认为是他开始的。
That's a good criticism.
这是一个很好的批评。
David Kestenbaum There was less common ground when Mike Wilson, the editor, sat down with Mike Standish, the businessman who had said he was thinking of dropping his subscription to the paper.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 当编辑迈克·威尔逊 (Mike Wilson) 与商人迈克·斯坦迪什 (Mike Standish) 坐下来时，双方的共同点就更少了。迈克·斯坦迪什曾表示，他正在考虑放弃对该报的订阅。
Standish's main advice was to remember that there are two sides to every story.
斯坦迪什的主要建议是记住每个故事都有两个方面。
Wilson felt like they were pretty careful to get both sides to every story.
威尔逊觉得他们非常小心地让双方都参与到每个故事中。
Half of your potential customers are probably conservatives, Standish said.
斯坦迪什说，你的潜在客户有一半可能是保守派。
As a business, you should keep that in mind.
作为企业，您应该牢记这一点。
You need us as customers.
您需要我们作为客户。
I do, said Mike Wilson, the editor.
“我愿意，”编辑迈克·威尔逊说。
But, he added.
但是，他补充道。
I cannot change the truth that's out there to tailor it to any advertiser or any reader.
我无法改变现有的事实来适应任何广告商或任何读者。
And you know, it's funny.
你知道，这很有趣。
We're in a business where, probably unlike you, we sometimes know that we're going to alienate our audience with an article.
我们所处的行业，可能与您不同，有时我们知道我们会通过一篇文章来疏远我们的受众。
It's a strange business to be in, where you think, well, probably a lot of readers won't like hearing this, but that's what we have to tell them tomorrow.
这是一个奇怪的行业，你会想，好吧，可能很多读者不喜欢听到这个，但这就是我们明天必须告诉他们的。
I get that.
我明白了。
I get that.
我明白了。
David Kestenbaum I have to apologize here.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 我必须在这里道歉。
I messed up the recording, so Mike Standish is a little hard to hear.
我把录音弄乱了，所以迈克·斯坦迪什的声音有点难以听清。
But as you write it, always remember there's two points of view.
但当你写它时，永远记住有两种观点。
And even when no one wants to hear it, try to shoot at both of them.
即使没人想听，也要尝试向他们两个开枪。
Try to say, where's the other side to this?
试着说，另一面在哪里？
So Mike, as we sit here, are you a subscriber to the Dallas Morning News?
迈克，当我们坐在这里时，您是《达拉斯晨报》的订阅者吗？
I am right now.
我现在就是。
Mike Wilson You think you'll stay one a little while and see how it goes?
迈克·威尔逊（Mike Wilson）：你认为你会待一会儿，看看情况如何？
I'll probably decide over the next few weeks.
我可能会在接下来的几周内做出决定。
You know, what I really appreciated about your email back to me was you said, if we don't have these conversations then we're lost.
你知道，我真正欣赏你回给我的电子邮件的是你说，如果我们没有这些对话，那么我们就会迷失方向。
That we need to be having these conversations.
我们需要进行这些对话。
Our country really needs this.
我们国家确实需要这个。
We're so divided right now.
我们现在是如此分裂。
It's awful.
太糟糕了。
And I'm probably part of the problem.
我可能也是问题的一部分。
And that was it.
就是这样。
The two-- for the moment-- newspaper subscribers went home.
两个报纸订户暂时回家了。
Mike Wilson said he was glad that they came in.
迈克·威尔逊说他很高兴他们能进来。
Why?
为什么？
Mike Wilson Because I've been troubled by the extent to which readers have been saying kind of the same things-- the things that they were saying.
迈克·威尔逊（Mike Wilson）：因为我一直对读者们在很大程度上说同样的事情——他们正在说的事情——感到困扰。
But do you feel better now?
但你现在感觉好点了吗？
Because you didn't convince them.
因为你没有说服他们。
That's the funny thing about talking stuff out.
这就是谈论事情的有趣之处。
Even if no one changes their mind about anything, sometimes everyone still feels better.
即使没有人改变主意，有时每个人仍然感觉更好。
Maybe because you listen.
也许是因为你听。
Or maybe it just feels good to make your points.
或者也许只是表达自己的观点感觉很好。
Maybe, having heard me out, they'll read stories and they'll hear my voice.
也许，听完我的讲述后，他们会读故事并听到我的声音。
They want me to hear theirs.
他们想让我听听他们的。
They want me to read it like they do.
他们希望我像他们一样阅读。
Maybe they'll read the stories and sort of hear my voice in there and see my attempts to be fair-- our attempts to be fair.
也许他们会读到这些故事，听到我的声音，看到我为公平所做的努力——我们为公平所做的努力。
The next day's paper did include that story about immigrants possibly being separated from their parents at the border.
第二天的报纸确实报道了有关移民可能在边境与父母失散的故事。
The headline in the print version was "US May Split Kids, Parents," but online, the headline was "Imagine Being a Migrant Mother Separated from Your Child." Mike, the editor, said he thought that was fair since most of the article was from the other side-- the perspective of the administration.
印刷版的标题是“美国可能会分裂孩子和父母”，但网络版的标题是“想象一下作为一名与孩子分离的移民母亲”。编辑迈克说，他认为这是公平的，因为文章的大部分内容都是从另一面——政府的角度来看的。
Stace, the doctor, thought it was a little loaded, though.
不过，医生史泰斯认为这有点过重了。
And Mike, the businessman, went further.
商人迈克走得更远。
"Pathetic," he wrote to me about the headline.
“太可悲了，”他写信给我谈论这个标题。
"Meant to tug at heartstrings and to think how mean we are." His email wasn't all thorns, though.
“目的是拉动心弦，让我们思考我们是多么卑鄙。”不过，他的电子邮件也不全是荆棘。
At the end, he asked me to forward it to Mike Wilson at the paper.
最后，他让我将其转发给报纸上的迈克·威尔逊。
He said the last couple of days, he thought the headlines had been pretty fair.
他说，过去几天，他认为头条新闻相当公平。
David Kestenbaum is a producer on our program.
大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (David Kestenbaum) 是我们节目的制片人。
Coming up, what I'm really, actually, truly thinking about this week.
接下来，我这周真正、真正、真正在想什么。
Never mind any of the stuff we've talked about so far today, and no disrespect to that stuff.
不要介意我们今天到目前为止所讨论的任何内容，也没有对这些内容的不尊重。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Ask a Grown-Up," stories of people seeking answers from other adults.
今天的节目“询问成年人”讲述了人们向其他成年人寻求答案的故事。
We have arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了我们计划的第三幕了。
So we had this idea putting together today's program that it would be interesting to find some parent who had a question for their kid that they could only ask their kid now that the kid was grown.
所以我们有这样的想法，整理今天的节目，如果找到一些对他们的孩子有问题的家长，他们只能在孩子长大后才问他们的问题，这会很有趣。
Maybe something that would've been hard to talk about during all the drama of taking care of them when they were younger.
也许在他们年轻时照顾他们的所有戏剧性事件中，有些事情很难谈论。
And we recorded a couple of these with different families.
我们为不同的家庭录制了其中一些。
And the one that was the most interesting was this one.
最有趣的是这个。
This is weirdly-- I'm very nervous about this, Dad.
这很奇怪——我对此非常紧张，爸爸。
I am too to a degree.
我也到了一定程度。
Ira Glass This is Chris Gethard and his dad, Ken Gethard.
艾拉·格拉斯 这是克里斯·格哈德和他的父亲肯·格哈德。
Because you and I don't really like-- we have a really good relationship.
因为你和我真的不喜欢——我们的关系非常好。
We don't sit down and have personal conversations that often, though.
不过，我们并不经常坐下来进行私人谈话。
Chris has been on our show now and then.
克里斯时不时地出现在我们的节目中。
He's a comedian.
他是一位喜剧演员。
And his father wanted to talk to Chris about Chris' depression.
他的父亲想和克里斯谈谈克里斯的抑郁症。
Chris has depression.
克里斯患有抑郁症。
He's talked about it on stage and in his podcast.
他在舞台上和播客中谈到了这个问题。
Which makes his dad feel bad, partly because Chris is talking publicly about stuff that the two of them have never really discussed.
这让他的父亲感觉很糟糕，部分原因是克里斯公开谈论他们两人从未真正讨论过的事情。
Chris didn't reveal his depression to his parents until he was in his early 20s and had an incident where he nearly died.
克里斯直到二十岁出头的时候才向父母透露了自己的抑郁症，并经历了一次险些丧命的事件。
And then a friend more or less forced him to tell his family.
然后一位朋友或多或少强迫他告诉他的家人。
And his dad had questions about all that.
他的父亲对这一切都有疑问。
Chris came into the studio having no idea what his dad wanted to ask about.
克里斯走进工作室时不知道他爸爸想问什么。
And they sat down and, I don't know.
他们坐下来，我不知道。
Maybe we should have expected this.
也许我们应该预料到这一点。
His dad didn't just jump right in with the stuff that he wanted to talk about.
他的父亲并没有直接插话他想谈论的事情。
That was too heavy.
那太重了。
Well, the first one's actually a question from Mom.
嗯，第一个问题实际上是妈妈的问题。
Ken asked Chris about pro wrestling.
肯向克里斯询问职业摔跤的情况。
He asked about sports.
他询问了有关体育的问题。
Ken Gethard Why are you such an NBA fan rather than a pro baseball fan?
Ken Gethard 为什么你是 NBA 球迷而不是职业棒球迷？
They talked about their old neighborhood in New Jersey.
他们谈论了新泽西州的老邻居。
Ken told Chris how much he hates celebrity endorsements.
肯告诉克里斯他有多么讨厌名人代言。
Would Chris ever do a celebrity endorsement?
克里斯会做名人代言吗？
Would Chris ever do a sex scene in a movie?
克里斯会在电影中出演性爱场面吗？
A nude scene in a movie?
电影中的裸体场景？
This continued for an hour.
这持续了一个小时。
And then finally.
最后。
Hey, listen.
嘿，听着。
There's a couple questions I definitely do want to hit, so let's go to them.
有几个问题我确实想回答，所以让我们来回答一下。
I don't want to run out of time.
我不想时间不够了。
Sure.
当然。
Ira Glass And then Ken brought up Chris' depression.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 然后肯提到了克里斯的抑郁症。
They wanted to know why Chris took so long to tell his parents about it.
他们想知道为什么克里斯花了这么长时间才告诉他的父母这件事。
Well, you know, when you finally told Mom, and that was, what, towards the end of college?
好吧，你知道，当你最终告诉妈妈时，那是什么，在大学即将结束时？
Yeah, I think that was-- Ken Gethard Absolutely floored us.
是的，我认为那是——肯·格哈德（Ken Gethard）绝对让我们震惊。
We had zero clue.
我们的线索为零。
Yeah.
是的。
Ken Gethard And on one hand, we're like, the guilt.
Ken Gethard 一方面，我们感到内疚。
We've got to help protect you.
我们必须帮助保护你。
Why couldn't we see this?
为什么我们看不到这个？
But on the other hand, it's like, why didn't he come to us?
但另一方面，又想，他为什么不来找我们？
Even now you're like that, Chris.
即使现在你还是这样，克里斯。
There was something on the web a couple of years ago.
几年前，网上有一些东西。
It was something-- this is what I look like on a bad day or when I'm feeling depressed.
这就是我在糟糕的一天或感到沮丧时的样子。
Yeah.
是的。
Ken Gethard And you said something to the effect, I'll tell my wife, I'll tell my brother, but I'll never let my parents see me like this.
肯·格哈德：你说的大意是，我会告诉我的妻子，我会告诉我的兄弟，但我永远不会让我的父母看到我这个样子。
Yeah.
是的。
Ken Gethard And that was after we've known.
Ken Gethard：那是在我们知道之后。
Even now it's sticking out there.
即使现在它仍然矗立在那里。
Yeah, I don't know why.
是的，我不知道为什么。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I guess it would make me feel like I was letting you guys down in some way or failing in some way.
我想这会让我觉得我在某种程度上让你们失望了或者在某种程度上失败了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Yeah, but Mom and I would be the first two there to help you and do whatever it took to protect you.
是的，但是妈妈和我会是最先帮助你的两个人，并尽一切努力保护你。
I know.
我知道。
I don't know why I've never been comfortable with you guys seeing me like that or knowing that side of me so well, but I just felt like it was a thing to hide.
我不知道为什么我对你们这样看我或如此了解我的一面感到不舒服，但我只是觉得这是一件需要隐藏的事情。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
Because you guys did-- as soon as I told you, it was like everyone went into this mode where I was so supported.
因为你们做到了——我一告诉你们，就好像每个人都进入了这种模式，我得到了如此多的支持。
And I had always assumed that if I ever told anybody about it I was going to be on my own, whereas when I kind of hit rock bottom and started talking to you guys about it, it was like instantaneously the safest I ever felt.
我一直以为，如果我告诉任何人这件事，我就会独自一人，而当我跌入谷底并开始与你们谈论这件事时，这就像我瞬间感受到的最安全的感觉。
Well, I'm glad you felt that way, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this.
好吧，我很高兴你有这样的感觉，但我希望你能理解我的观点。
Yeah.
是的。
No, I wish I talked to you guys about it sooner.
不，我希望早点和你们谈谈这件事。
I wish.
我希望。
And you did a fantastic job of hiding it from Mom and I, which I'll have all amounts of guilt over till my dying day.
你对我和妈妈隐瞒了这件事，做得非常出色，直到我去世的那一天，我都会对此感到内疚。
No, you don't have to.
不，你不必这样做。
You don't have to have any guilt over that.
你不必为此感到内疚。
I mean, I was so good at hiding it.
我的意思是，我很擅长隐藏它。
So good at hiding it.
太善于隐藏了。
And I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I don't know why I never let you and Mom know about that.
我不知道为什么我从来不让你和妈妈知道这件事。
It's just not my instinct.
这不是我的本能。
My instinct is that that's going to worry you guys so much and you're going to have to sit around and then be scared about me, and I don't want you doing that.
我的直觉是，这会让你们非常担心，你们将不得不坐在那里，然后害怕我，我不希望你们这样做。
And I always figured maybe I could push through it or it would pass.
我总是想也许我可以克服它，或者它会过去。
Even I felt like maybe I'm just a moody kid.
就连我自己也觉得自己可能只是一个喜怒无常的孩子。
If you're feeling bad and you need help and stuff like that, Chris, I would like you to come to us at any point in time.
如果您感觉不好并且需要帮助或类似的事情，克里斯，我希望您可以随时来找我们。
But I'm not a professional.
但我不是专业人士。
I don't know what to tell you.
我不知道该告诉你什么。
I don't know if I'm making sense.
我不知道我说的是否有道理。
I want to be there, but I don't want to tell you something wrong, either.
我想去那里，但我也不想告诉你一些错误的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Ken Gethard That's always in the back of my head.
肯·格哈德（Ken Gethard） 这一直在我的脑海里。
It's like, oh, god, if he comes to me, you know--
就像，哦，上帝，如果他来找我，你知道——
[SNICKERING] Ken Gethard [LAUGHING] Am I going to tell him something and all of a sudden he's going to be worse?
[窃笑]肯·格哈德[笑]我会告诉他一些事情，然后他会突然变得更糟吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ken Gethard I'm scared.
肯·格哈德 我很害怕。
I don't think I want you coming to me, Dad, I'm upset.
我想我不希望你来找我，爸爸，我很不高兴。
I need you to talk to me.
我需要你跟我说话。
I wouldn't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
That's what you have a professional for.
这就是你拥有专业人士的目的。
Does that make sense anywhere there?
这在任何地方都有意义吗？
Yeah.
是的。
No, because I know that.
不，因为我知道这一点。
I know that's the truth.
我知道这是事实。
I know that's the truth.
我知道这是事实。
I know you're not the guy to talk about that.
我知道你不是谈论这个的人。
It's part of what made it very hard to say it.
这也是很难说出口的部分原因。
But it doesn't-- I think I let that fear make me not talk to you about it.
但事实并非如此——我想我是因为恐惧而没有和你谈论这件事。
Whereas what really happened is exactly what I should have known you would have done, which was, you're not the guy to talk about it, but you're certainly going to make sure that I find the person--
然而真正发生的事情正是我应该知道你会做的，那就是，你不是谈论这件事的人，但你肯定会确保我找到那个人——
You're going to get me there.
你会带我去那里的。
That's one of the things I regret the most.
这是我最后悔的事情之一。
Like, you were never going to be the guy who I could come to and say, Dad, I'm really sad and I don't know why.
就像，你永远不会成为我可以对你说：爸爸，我真的很难过，我不知道为什么的人。
You weren't going to know what to say.
你不会知道该说什么。
But I should have given a lot more credit to knowing you were going to run through a wall to get me where I needed to go.
但我应该给予更多的信任，因为我知道你会穿过一堵墙来带我去我需要去的地方。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Chris Gethard and his dad, Ken Gethard.
艾拉·格拉斯·克里斯·格哈德和他的父亲肯·格哈德。
Thanks to them for agreeing to have this conversation on tape.
感谢他们同意将这次谈话录音。
Chris, by the way, talks about his depression in a one-man show that's going to be on HBO in May.
顺便说一下，克里斯在 HBO 5 月份播出的一部独角戏中讲述了他的抑郁症。
A few days ago, my friend Mary Ahearn died.
几天前，我的朋友玛丽·埃赫恩去世了。
Mary was 89.
玛丽89岁了。
For the last 10 years, I've talked to her nearly every day.
过去10年里，我几乎每天都和她说话。
She and I met in the dog park and we organized our lives to meet there at 10:00 each night, which took a little more organization for me than for her.
我和她在狗公园见面，我们安排好生活，每晚 10:00 在那里见面，这对我来说比对她来说需要更多的安排。
She'd been retired for years.
她已经退休多年了。
I had a job.
我有工作。
I traveled for my job.
我为了工作出差了。
She'd had many very old-fashioned New York City jobs.
她在纽约市做过很多非常老式的工作。
She was a telephone switchboard operator and then the switchboard supervisor at Altman's Department Store for years, when both Altman's and telephone switchboards existed.
当奥特曼百货公司和电话总机都存在时，她曾是一名电话总机接线员，后来在奥特曼百货公司担任总机主管多年。
Lived on a pension from a union in a rent-controlled apartment.
靠工会的养老金住在一套租金管制的公寓里。
When I traveled and when her health eventually stopped her from going to the park, we'd talk on the phone every night.
当我旅行时，当她的健康状况最终阻止她去公园时，我们每晚都会通电话。
OK, this is a very personal thing to say on the radio, but my wife and I separated a few years ago.
好吧，这是在广播中说的非常私人的事情，但我和我的妻子几年前就分居了。
And so for years now, Mary has usually been the person who I talked to last before I'd go to sleep.
所以多年来，玛丽通常是我睡觉前最后一个说话的人。
That's not a part of your day you let just anybody into, but I've never had a friendship like my friendship with her, where you just check in every day.
这不是你一天的一部分，你不可以让任何人参与，但我从来没有像我和她的友谊那样有过友谊，你每天都会签到。
Mary is the person who I would watch presidential debates and election results with.
玛丽是我会一起观看总统辩论和选举结果的人。
And so most nights, she and I would catch up on the news.
所以大多数晚上，我和她都会了解新闻。
And we would talk about my day.
我们会谈论我的一天。
And then she and I would talk about what happened that day with her and with John, her developmentally disabled cousin, 73 years old, who she cared for and housed for over four decades.
然后她和我会谈论那天与她和约翰发生的事情，约翰是她患有发育障碍的表弟，73 岁，她照顾和居住了他四十多年。
Mary cooked dinner for John every night.
玛丽每天晚上为约翰做饭。
Pot roast and mashed potatoes kinds of dinners.
晚餐有烤肉和土豆泥之类的。
Dinners she did not eat herself.
晚饭她自己不吃。
John's conversation style was to walk into a room and make a bitter pronouncement on some subject, often something he saw on the news.
约翰的谈话风格是走进一个房间，就某个话题（通常是他在新闻中看到的话题）发表尖酸刻薄的声明。
In the last year, he's become convinced that there are bedbugs in his room.
去年，他确信自己的房间里有臭虫。
Or some kind of bugs.
或者某种错误。
Something that is biting him in his sleep.
有什么东西在睡梦中咬着他。
And although there's nothing there-- really, there's just nothing at all; it's all in his head-- he got obsessed.
尽管那里什么也没有——真的，什么也没有；这一切都在他的脑海里——他着迷了。
And he would haul shirts and pillow cases into the dining room to show Mary, insisting that the little dots in the fabric are living creatures and not just like the design of the cloth.
他会把衬衫和枕套拖到餐厅给玛丽看，并坚称布料上的小点是活物，而不仅仅是布料的设计。
And for months, I'd been telling Mary like, this is a new turn for John.
几个月来，我一直告诉玛丽，这对约翰来说是一个新的转机。
He was always incredibly bullheaded, but now he had crossed over into something new.
他总是非常顽固，但现在他已经跨入了新的领域。
This just seemed like delusion and seemed sad in this whole new way.
这看起来像是一种错觉，而且以一种全新的方式看起来很悲伤。
And I just thought we should have the exterminator come in and put on a big show and pretend to spray for bed bugs and put John's mind at ease.
我只是觉得我们应该让灭虫者进来，上演一场盛大的表演，假装喷洒臭虫，让约翰放心。
And nobody in this world had more compassion for John than Mary, but somehow this bedbug thing was a bridge too far for her.
这个世界上没有人比玛丽更同情约翰，但不知何故，臭虫的事情对她来说是一座太遥远的桥梁。
She did not want to indulge him on this one.
她不想在这件事上纵容他。
She felt like if she started spending money on that, what was going to be next?
她觉得如果她开始在这上面花钱，接下来会发生什么？
It just seemed like a slippery slope.
这看起来就像是一个滑坡。
So every night, I would hear the latest with John and the bedbugs and the various relatives.
所以每天晚上，我都会听到约翰、臭虫和各种亲戚的最新消息。
Maureen and her kids in Washington state.
莫琳和她的孩子们在华盛顿州。
John's brother, Neil, who I've never met, but I know all about his years on the NYPD and his pension and what booze he likes, his recent surgery, his recovery from the surgery.
约翰的兄弟尼尔，我从未见过他，但我知道他在纽约警察局工作的那些年、他的养老金、他喜欢什么酒、他最近的手术、手术后的恢复情况。
I have relatives of my own-- lots of them-- I don't know as well as this man, Neil, who I've never met.
我有自己的亲戚——很多——我对这个人的了解不如尼尔，我从未见过他。
Mary and I were good enough friends that we would bore each other, which you only get with your family and your closest friends who you spend so much time with.
玛丽和我是足够好的朋友，我们会让彼此感到厌烦，这种感觉只有和家人以及最亲密的朋友在一起才能得到，他们花了很多时间在一起。
Some nights I would be aware that she was ushering me off the phone.
有些晚上我会意识到她正在引导我挂断电话。
She would say to me, you must be very tired, which I knew was the signal for she'd had enough of me for the night.
她会对我说，你一定很累了，我知道这是一个信号，因为她今晚已经受够了我。
Mary lived her whole life in one spot in apartments on the same two blocks of New York City.
玛丽一生都住在纽约市同一两个街区的公寓里。
This is 9th Avenue between 20th and 22nd Street.
这是第 20 街和第 22 街之间的第 9 大道。
She died two blocks from where she grew up.
她去世时离她长大的地方只有两个街区。
She saw the neighborhood change over the years from longshoremen who worked the Chelsea Piers to gay men in the 1970s-- the YMCA of the song YMCA is just a couple blocks over on 23rd Street-- to rich people today.
多年来，她目睹了社区的变化，从在切尔西码头工作的码头工人到 1970 年代的同性恋者（歌曲《基督教青年会》中的基督教青年会就在 23 街几个街区外），再到今天的富人。
She seemed to be constantly writing checks to help out various nieces and their kids who needed the help.
她似乎一直在写支票来帮助需要帮助的各个侄女和她们的孩子。
John basically showed up at her door in the mid-'70s.
约翰基本上是在七十年代中期出现在她家门口的。
Nobody else in the family would take him.
家里没有其他人愿意接受他。
Her friend Gene came and lived with her for years.
她的朋友吉恩来和她一起生活了很多年。
Red was a homeless guy she took in when he got his life together.
瑞德是一个无家可归的人，当他重新开始生活时，她收留了他。
Now he's a nurse.
现在他是一名护士。
Beau needed a place when gentrification knocked him out of one of the last cheap apartments in the neighborhood.
当中产阶级化迫使博搬出附近最后一间廉价公寓时，博需要一个地方。
Her cousin Tom stayed during a rough patch.
她的表弟汤姆在困难时期留下来。
Everybody knew Mary was a soft touch for strays needing a home.
每个人都知道玛丽对需要家的流浪动物很温柔。
Dogs, cats, people.
狗、猫、人。
She and I would do the New York Times crossword puzzle together.
她和我会一起做《纽约时报》的填字游戏。
She had a dark sense of humor, was quick with a fatalistic joke.
她有一种黑色幽默感，能很快讲出宿命论的笑话。
When we'd go to plays and movies, she was fine if it was a comedy but always preferred something sad.
当我们去看戏剧和电影时，如果是喜剧她就很好，但总是更喜欢悲伤的东西。
She said it was the Irish in her.
她说她身上有爱尔兰血统。
Three years ago, I was invited to give a speech in Ireland and Mary went with me as my plus-one.
三年前，我受邀在爱尔兰发表演讲，玛丽作为我的加分者与我同行。
Though her house is decorated with little Irish sayings and knickknacks, this was her first trip to the country, and we visited the church in Kinsale where her father was baptized in 1889, before he left for America.
虽然她的房子装饰着一些爱尔兰谚语和小玩意，但这是她第一次去这个国家，我们参观了金塞尔的教堂，她的父亲在前往美国之前于 1889 年在那里接受了洗礼。
She was not somebody to turn to for relationship advice.
她不是一个可以向她寻求人际关系建议的人。
She'd never been in love.
她从来没有谈过恋爱。
As well as we knew each other, and as much as we talked, I could never bring myself to ask if she had ever kissed anybody-- boy, man, woman.
尽管我们彼此了解，尽管我们聊了很多，但我永远无法让自己问她是否曾经吻过任何人——男孩、男人、女人。
I'm fairly sure the answer was no, and I didn't want to make her say it out loud.
我相当确定答案是否定的，而且我不想让她大声说出来。
The only crush that she ever admitted to was a boy she knew back when she was a teenager and got tuberculosis and lived in a TB ward uptown.
她唯一承认的暗恋对象是她十几岁时认识的一个男孩，当时她患了肺结核，住在住宅区的肺结核病房里。
He was smart, soft-spoken.
他很聪明，说话轻声细语。
And if I remember right, he also had TB, though he didn't survive it.
如果我没记错的话，他也患有结核病，尽管他没能活下来。
So she knew about as much about being in a marriage as I knew about running a 1950s-era telephone switchboard, which meant that if I had a bad day with my wife, Anaheed, and that's all I was thinking about, Mary was not a helpful person to talk to at all.
所以她对婚姻的了解和我对 20 世纪 50 年代电话总机的了解一样多，这意味着如果我和妻子阿纳希德 (Anaheed) 度过了糟糕的一天，而这就是我所想的，玛丽根本不是一个乐于助人的人。
For one thing, she was entirely and uncritically on my side in any dispute.
一方面，在任何争议中，她都完全、不加批判地站在我一边。
Even disputes where I knew I was in the wrong and I told her I was in the wrong, she would come back time and again to a kind of Depression era view of marriage as a kind of practical arrangement that was not necessarily about happiness.
即使在我知道自己错了并告诉她我错了的争论中，她也会一次又一次地回到大萧条时代的婚姻观，认为婚姻是一种实际的安排，不一定与幸福有关。
In her view, I was making most of the money in the family.
在她看来，家里的大部分钱都是我赚的。
Anaheed was comfortable, living in a nice apartment, could buy stuff she wanted.
阿纳希德很舒服，住在漂亮的公寓里，可以买她想要的东西。
Why would Anaheed complain?
阿纳希德为什么要抱怨？
Why wasn't she grateful?
她为什么不感恩呢？
She had it so easy.
她过得如此轻松。
I would try to explain to her the things that I was doing that rightly disappointed Anaheed.
我会尽力向她解释我所做的事情确实让阿纳希德感到失望。
Mary would shake her head.
玛丽会摇头。
I don't see what she has to complain about.
我不明白她有什么可抱怨的。
Today's radio show is about asking a grown-up for advice.
今天的广播节目是关于向成年人寻求建议的。
I am fully grown up.
我已经完全长大了。
And I'm older than I sound on the radio.
而且我比广播里听起来的年龄还要大。
I just turned 58.
我刚满 58 岁。
That's basically 60.
基本上就是60了。
That's old enough that, last week, when I read something by somebody in their 30s who said, well, of course nobody ever fully feels like a grown-up, I wanted to say, no, I actually feel like a grown-up.
那已经够老了，上周，当我读到一个 30 多岁的人写的东西时，他说，好吧，当然没有人完全感觉自己像个成年人，我想说，不，我实际上感觉自己像个成年人。
I feel like a grown-up.
我感觉自己像个成年人了。
I feel my responsibilities.
我感到自己的责任。
I feel the weight of them.
我感受到它们的重量。
I know when I have lived up to my own ideals for how I want to be in the world and treat others around me, and when I haven't, I feel it.
我知道，当我实现了自己的理想，即我想如何生活在这个世界上并如何对待周围的人时，当我没有实现时，我会感觉到。
I feel tired in this way that I definitely did not when I was younger.
我现在感觉很累，年轻时绝对没有这样的感觉。
And I'm talking about Mary here on the radio right now because, frankly, it's hard for me to think or talk about anything else this week, but also because this week's theme about asking advice from a grown-up.
我现在在广播中谈论玛丽是因为，坦率地说，这周我很难思考或谈论其他任何事情，而且还因为本周的主题是向成年人寻求建议。
When you get to a certain age, you realize each grown-up is good for advice but on certain subjects and not on other subjects, and you have to be picky and choose the right grown-up for the right subjects.
当你到了一定的年龄，你意识到每个成年人都可以提供很好的建议，但在某些主题上而不是在其他主题上，你必须挑剔并为正确的主题选择合适的成年人。
And then, I think I'm learning this week, when you get to a certain age, there aren't many grown-ups older than you to ask advice from.
然后，我想这周我学到了，当你到了一定年龄，没有多少比你年长的成年人可以向你寻求建议。
The ones you love die off.
你爱的人都死了。
And then-- and this is a total unforeseen pisser-- you miss their crappy, bad advice.
然后——这完全是一个不可预见的小便——你错过了他们蹩脚的、糟糕的建议。
You really miss it.
你真的很想念它。
Because even the worst advice from a friend comes with a second message.
因为即使是朋友提出的最糟糕的建议也会带来第二条信息。
And that's just I got your back.
这就是我对你的支持。
Mary gave me some really useless marriage advice, and I gave her completely unwanted and unheeded advice about her cousin's non-existent bedbugs.
玛丽给了我一些非常无用的婚姻建议，而我则给了她关于她表弟不存在的臭虫的完全不受欢迎和未被理睬的建议。
And we each ignored the other's advice.
我们都忽视了对方的建议。
But we did heed the other message.
但我们确实注意到了另一则消息。
She had my back.
她支持我。
I had hers.
我有她的。
Which in the end, of course, was more important, anyway.
当然，最终哪个更重要。
Yes, I know it's incredibly corny to be playing this music right here at this spot, but this is Mary's cousin, Sean, playing for her in her apartment on St. Patty's Day a couple of years ago.
是的，我知道在这个地方播放这种音乐是非常老套的，但这是玛丽的表弟肖恩，几年前的圣帕蒂节在她的公寓里为她演奏。
OK.
好的。
Ready to go?
准备好了吗？
Mary Ahearn I thought you were starting.
玛丽·埃赫恩 我以为你要开始了。
I'm Mary, Ira's friend.
我是玛丽，艾拉的朋友。
Ira Glass This is Mary recorded a couple years ago when she and I shot a video explaining to older listeners how to download a podcast, which Mary knew how to do.
Ira Glass 这是玛丽几年前录制的，当时她和我拍摄了一段视频，向年长的听众解释如何下载播客，玛丽知道如何做。
I don't need to give away your age, but is it safe to say you are an actual older person?
我不需要透露你的年龄，但可以肯定地说你是一个真正的老年人吗？
Our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo.
今天我们的节目由 Stephanie Foo 制作。
Our staff includes Elise Bergerson, Elna Baker, Susan Burton, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivas, Sean Cole, Whitney Dangerfield, Neil Drumming, Karen Duffin, Kimberly Henderson, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Christopher Swetala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker, and Diane Wu.
我们的员工包括 Elise Bergerson、Elna Baker、Susan Burton、Zoe Chace、Dana Chivas、Sean Cole、Whitney Dangerfield、Neil Drumming、Karen Duffin、Kimberly Henderson、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Christopher Swetala、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike、Julie惠特克和黛安·吴。
Music help today from Damien Graef.
今天达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 提供音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, whenever he acts weird or says stuff like this, I have to remember he was homeschooled.
你知道，每当他表现得很奇怪或说这样的话时，我必须记住他是在家上学的。
Oh, my god, why does it sound like I grew up in a box where I wasn't allowed to ever have contact with another boy or something?
哦，天哪，为什么我听起来像是在一个不允许我与其他男孩或其他东西接触的盒子里长大的？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
Wonderful.
精彩的。
Wonderful.
精彩的。
Mary Ahearn Isn't that great?
玛丽埃赫恩 这不是很好吗？
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。