611: Vague and Confused - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #611 | March 3, 2017 611: Vague and Confused Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 611 集 | 2017 年 3 月 3 日 611：含糊不清 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass Saturday morning, Chicago, four days after the Department of Homeland Security officially released its new policies on deporting undocumented immigrants.

序幕 艾拉·格拉斯 周六上午，芝加哥，四天前，国土安全部正式发布了驱逐无证移民的新政策。

This is a workshop for the people targeted by those policies at the Mexican consulate.

这是为墨西哥领事馆这些政策所针对的人群举办的研讨会。

And it's packed.

而且已经装满了。

They had over 100 seats in this room, and when those filled, they added a second room.

他们在这个房间里有100多个座位，当座位满了时，他们又增加了第二个房间。

And then a third.

然后是第三个。

People stand in the back.

人们站在后面。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass Good morning to all of you, says an official from the consulate, Carlos Valera Paulino.

[西班牙语] Ira Glass 领事馆官员卡洛斯·瓦莱拉·保利诺 (Carlos Valera Paulino) 表示，大家早上好。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass Truth is, we didn't expect this many people.

[说西班牙语] Ira Glass 事实是，我们没想到会有这么多人。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass But we understand the situation is worrisome, and that's why you're here.

[西班牙语] Ira Glass 但我们知道情况令人担忧，这就是你来这里的原因。

The president has been saying over and over that his new deportation rules are targeted at drug dealers, murderers, gang members.

总统一再表示，他的新驱逐规则针对的是毒贩、杀人犯和帮派成员。

But if you simply read the guidelines, they say in black and white that's not what they do.

但如果你只是阅读指南，他们就会白纸黑字地说这不是他们所做的。

The enforcement priorities now include all kinds of people who are not drug dealers, gang members, or serious criminals of any kind.

现在的执法重点包括除毒贩、帮派成员或任何类型的严重罪犯之外的各类人员。

Nearly anybody who's undocumented is covered.

几乎所有无证件的人都受到保护。

And it's been widely reported some of these non-criminals have been picked up already.

据广泛报道，其中一些非犯罪分子已经被抓获。

Lots of people don't know this, but Chicago is a very Mexican city.

很多人不知道，芝加哥是一座非常墨西哥的城市。

Over half a million people with Mexican roots, a fourth of them undocumented.

超过五十万人有墨西哥血统，其中四分之一没有证件。

And the consulate sees itself as their ally.

领事馆将自己视为他们的盟友。

We care about you and your kids' future, one official says to the crowd, which is definitely not the message they've been getting lately from the American government.

一位官员对人群说，我们关心你们和你们孩子的未来，但这绝对不是他们最近从美国政府那里得到的信息。

The consulate convened this panel explaining, OK, here's how to plan for the possibility that you'll get detained and deported.

领事馆召集了这个小组，解释说，好吧，以下是如何计划您可能被拘留和驱逐出境的情况。

Like, OK, if you're taken, what'll happen to your kids?

就像，好吧，如果你被带走了，你的孩子会怎样？

How do you plan for that?

你对此有何计划？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass A lawyer explains how to sign over the power of attorney to somebody to take care of your kids.

[西班牙语] Ira Glass 一位律师解释了如何签署委托书给某人来照顾您的孩子。

Or how to make somebody their temporary guardian.

或者如何让某人成为他们的临时监护人。

Another speaker explained what to do with your home and bank accounts if you're deported.

另一位发言者解释了如果您被驱逐出境如何处理您的家庭和银行账户。

Yet another-- what if you own a business here in the States?

还有一个问题——如果您在美国拥有一家企业怎么办？

An organizer named Erendira Rendon told the crowd that if immigration shows up at their door, don't let them in unless they have a signed and dated judge's warrant.

一位名叫埃伦迪拉·伦登（Erendira Rendon）的组织者告诉人群，如果移民出现在他们家门口，除非他们有签署并注明日期的法官逮捕令，否则不要让他们进来。

Usually they don't.

通常他们不会。

And she made the crowd practice in English what to say through the door.

她让人群练习隔着门用英语说些什么。

OK, practica.

好的，练习一下。

I do not consent to your entry.

我不同意你的进入。

I do not consent to your search of these premises.

我不同意你搜查这些场所。

I do not consent to the search of these promises.

我不同意寻找这些承诺。

The little girl sitting near me said that last one as, "I do not consent to your search of these promises."

坐在我旁边的小女孩说了最后一句话，“我不同意你寻找这些承诺。”

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Ira Glass I know it's hard, the speaker says, and that's why you have this.

[西班牙语] Ira Glass 我知道这很难，发言者说，这就是为什么你有这个。

She holds up a packet everybody got.

她举起每个人都收到的一个包裹。

One page has all these same messages in English in big letters.

一页上有所有这些相同的英文大写字母信息。

She tells them that if immigration shows up, hold this page against the window.

她告诉他们，如果移民出现，请将本页靠在窗户上。

Don't put it up right when you get home today, she says.

她说，今天回家后不要把它放好。

Ira Glass Just put it on the fridge, or leave it by the door.

Ira Glass 只需将其放在冰箱上，或放在门边即可。

After nearly three hours of presenters and Q&A, one of the last stragglers in the room was one of the moms, Cuca.

经过近三个小时的演讲和问答后，房间里最后的掉队者之一是其中一位妈妈库卡。

She talked to one of our producers, Lilly Sullivan.

她与我们的一位制片人莉莉·沙利文进行了交谈。

Cuca says it's been hard watching how the possibility of deportation has affected her kids.

库卡说，看到被驱逐出境的可能性对她的孩子们产生了怎样的影响，她感到很难过。

She has two daughters.

她有两个女儿。

The older one is one of the DREAMer kids, covered by DACA, the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, so presumably, she's safe for now.

大一点的孩子是 DREAMer 孩子中的一员，享受 DACA（童年入境暂缓遣返计划）的保障，所以据推测，她目前是安全的。

But that could change.

但这可能会改变。

She's 19 and a sophomore on a full scholarship at a prestigious college they asked us not to name here.

她今年 19 岁，是一所享有全额奖学金的二年级学生，他们要求我们不要在这里透露她的名字。

The younger one is a citizen, born here, just 11.

小儿子是公民，出生在这里，年仅 11 岁。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Interpreter And I've explained to her what could happen.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 我已经向她解释了可能发生的情况。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan And she asks, what am I going to do?

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan 她问，我该怎么办？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan And I tell her, you go with me.

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan 我告诉她，你跟我走。

I won't leave you.

我不会离开你。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan I won't leave you anywhere.

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan 我不会把你留在任何地方。

You're my daughter, and you go with your mom.

你是我的女儿，你要和你妈妈一起去。

That's Lilly translating.

这是莉莉翻译的。

Cuca recorded the workshop to play for her husband later to help them plan.

库卡录制了研讨会，稍后为她的丈夫演奏，以帮助他们制定计划。

The family sat down and mapped out a few different scenarios.

一家人坐下来，制定了几种不同的方案。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan What happens if they deport one of us?

[西班牙语] 莉莉·沙利文 如果他们驱逐我们中的一个人会怎样？

What does the other one do?

另一位是做什么的？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan We've talked to our daughters, and they know the plan.

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan 我们已经和我们的女儿们谈过了，她们知道这个计划。

I think it was my mom who called my sister and I to the living room.

我想是我妈妈把我和妹妹叫到客厅的。

We talked to Whitney, Cuca's older daughter, at their apartment.

我们在库卡的大女儿惠特尼的公寓里与他们进行了交谈。

She said, OK, we need to talk.

她说，好吧，我们需要谈谈。

We had to figure out and agree on if somebody gets deported, who will go back with them and who will stay.

我们必须弄清楚并就是否有人被驱逐出境、谁将与他们一起返回以及谁将留下来达成一致。

In their first conversation, they all decided that, if one of them was sent to Mexico, all four of them would go.

在第一次谈话中，他们都决定，如果其中一个被派往墨西哥，那么他们四个人都会去。

But then later, Whitney's mom, Cuca, started thinking, you know, maybe Whitney should stay in America, finish college.

但后来，惠特尼的妈妈库卡开始思考，你知道，也许惠特尼应该留在美国，完成大学学业。

So that became the plan.

这就是计划。

The other three would go.

其他三个人也会去。

And then Cuca realized, oh, to set up a life in Mexico, they're going to need a lot of money.

然后库卡意识到，哦，要在墨西哥开始生活，他们需要很多钱。

So she began to wonder, if she were deported, was it a good idea for Whitney's dad to leave with her and give up his American income?

于是她开始想，如果她被驱逐出境，惠特尼的父亲和她一起离开并放弃他在美国的收入是个好主意吗？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan So I said no. It can't be that, if I go back, he goes back.

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan 所以我说不。不可能，我回去了，他就回去了。

He has to wait and get some money together--

他必须等待并凑点钱——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan --to at least get a bed and light and gas.

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan——至少要有一张床、电灯和煤气。

Basic things that we need to live.

我们生活所需要的基本东西。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan And in the situation where he's deported--

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan 在他被驱逐出境的情况下——

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan Jeez.

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan Jeez。

It gets really complicated, you know?

它变得非常复杂，你知道吗？

For me personally, it was devastating to have to have that kind of conversation and process the fact that we were having that conversation.

对我个人来说，必须进行这样的对话并处理我们正在进行这样的对话的事实是毁灭性的。

Seems like it was even harder for her little sister, Naomi, the 11-year-old, who kind of zones out in video games or just cracks jokes whenever the family starts talking about this stuff.

对于她 11 岁的妹妹娜奥米来说，这似乎更加困难，每当家人开始谈论这些事情时，她就会在电子游戏中走神，或者只是开玩笑。

The reality of having to relocate to Mexico, a country she's never set foot in?

不得不搬到墨西哥这个她从未涉足过的国家的现实吗？

Hoo, boy, was I freaked out because I thought that I couldn't take anything over there.

呼，天啊，我吓坏了，因为我以为我不能带任何东西去那里。

Yeah, so at first I was worried about not having any snacks, not having any computers, not having any LEGOs, not having anything fun.

是的，所以一开始我担心没有零食，没有电脑，没有乐高积木，没有任何乐趣。

So yeah.

所以是的。

Some of those LEGOs, they don't even make anymore, like the SpongeBob LEGOs.

其中一些乐高积木，他们甚至不再生产，比如海绵宝宝乐高积木。

I'm a big fan of SpongeBob.

我是海绵宝宝的忠实粉丝。

So yeah, that was the part that I was mostly freaked out about.

是的，这就是我最害怕的部分。

Yeah.

是的。

And school.

还有学校。

I mean, would I continue?

我的意思是，我会继续吗？

Yeah.

是的。

She said actually she could barely remember anything anyone said in these family discussions about their plans.

她说实际上她几乎不记得任何人在家庭讨论中就他们的计划说过的话。

Couldn't remember how she felt.

不记得她的感受。

When her mom prodded her a little, she's said--

当她妈妈稍微刺激一下她时，她说——

Ehh, [INAUDIBLE], yeah, OK, so my dad was serious.

呃，[听不清]，是的，好吧，所以我爸爸是认真的。

And like, I don't know.

就像，我不知道。

My mom also-- yeah.

我妈妈也是——是的。

I think I'm starting to remember now.

我想我现在开始记起来了。

Some of us actually were crying.

我们中的一些人实际上哭了。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, and I'm just thinking about stuff, like is there going to be a snow day?

是的，我只是在想一些事情，比如会下雪吗？

And I'm praying to God, please be a snow day.

我向上帝祈祷，请下雪。

She means like the next day in Chicago.

她的意思是就像芝加哥的第二天一样。

That's what she was thinking about during this tense family sit-down.

这就是她在这次紧张的家庭聚会中所思考的问题。

And this is pretty much how she talked about her feelings with us until Lilly started asking about this one conversation that Naomi had with her mom, just the two of them talking about being deported.

这几乎就是她与我们谈论她的感受的方式，直到莉莉开始询问内奥米与她妈妈的一次谈话，只有他们两个谈论被驱逐出境。

Then I heard about the plans, which I kind of feel now worried.

然后我听说了这些计划，我现在有点担心。

What would happen to my sister?

我姐姐会发生什么事？

Yeah.

是的。

So that's something that I worry about.

这就是我担心的事情。

You worry about what would happen to your sister?

你担心你妹妹会怎么样？

What do you worry about?

你担心什么？

I wouldn't see her for like two years or more.

我大概有两年或更长时间见不到她了。

We're-- we're a fam-- we're a family.

我们是——我们是一个家庭——我们是一个家庭。

I want to stay together, not be separated.

我想一直在一起，不想分开。

[CRYING]

[哭泣]

Yeah, that's-- that's the part that right now I'm worrying most about.

是的，这就是我现在最担心的部分。

Yeah.

是的。

For now, the family is preparing just in case.

目前，家人正在做准备，以防万一。

Getting the last few official documents in hand, getting Naomi Mexican citizenship in addition to her American citizenship, so it'll be easier to move her to Mexico, if needs be.

拿到最后几份官方文件，除了美国公民身份之外，娜奥米还获得墨西哥公民身份，这样如果需要的话，将她移居墨西哥会更容易。

And they have this system that, when one of them leaves the house, when they get to where they're going, they call to say that they safely got there.

他们有这样一个系统，当他们中的一个离开家时，当他们到达目的地时，他们会打电话说他们已经安全到达那里。

Cuca worries most about her husband.

库卡最担心的是她的丈夫。

He goes to work in the suburbs.

他去郊区工作。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Lilly Sullivan When the phone rings and I see his number, I'm like, oh, OK.

[说西班牙语] Lilly Sullivan 当电话响起并且我看到他的号码时，我想，哦，好吧。

He arrived.

他到了。

For all these things the family is doing to prepare for the worst, the truth is, it's still not clear how much danger they're actually in.

尽管这家人正在做所有这些事情，以应对最坏的情况，但事实是，目前还不清楚他们实际上面临着多大的危险。

It's still not clear how aggressively the Trump administration is going to be deporting people under the new rules that they've just adopted.

目前尚不清楚特朗普政府将如何根据他们刚刚通过的新规则积极驱逐人员。

So much is still in the air.

仍有很多事情悬而未决。

And one place you can see that is this hotline that a church set up in West Chicago, the Faith, Life, and Hope Mission.

你可以在一个地方看到这个热线电话，这是一家教会在西芝加哥设立的信仰、生命和希望宣教团。

Erica Velasquez is one of the volunteers who answers calls-- on her personal cell phone, by the way.

埃里卡·维拉斯克斯 (Erica Velasquez) 是接听电话的志愿者之一——顺便说一句，她是用她的个人手机接听电话的。

She told me she's getting 60 to 70 a day, and that it's driving her husband nuts.

她告诉我她每天都会有 60 到 70 次，这让她丈夫抓狂。

Some questions that she gets are totally random.

她收到的一些问题完全是随机的。

One green card holder, who's in the process of becoming a citizen, wondered if having a tattoo could endanger his chances.

一位正在成为公民的绿卡持有者想知道纹身是否会危及他的机会。

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator And they ask me, Erica, I heard that now, if you have a tattoo, they're going to interpret that as if I'm a criminal or like I'm in some kind of gang.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 他们问我，艾丽卡，我听说现在，如果你有纹身，他们就会把它解释为好像我是一个罪犯，或者就像我是某个帮派的成员。

So am I not going to be able to work it out?

那我是不是就没法解决了呢？

[SPEAKING SPANISH] Translator It surprised me.

[说西班牙语] 翻译 这让我很惊讶。

I didn't know what to say.

我不知道该说什么。

People call, asking about the food stamps.

人们打电话来询问食品券的情况。

The new guidelines say you can get prioritized for deportation if you receive government benefits you shouldn't have.

新的指导方针称，如果您收到了不应获得的政府福利，您可以优先被驱逐出境。

So if the parents are not citizens but the kids are citizens, can they argue that the kids are the ones getting the food stamps?

那么，如果父母不是公民，但孩子是公民，他们是否可以说孩子才是获得食品券的人呢？

Are they OK?

他们还好吗？

The guidelines also say you can get prioritized for removal if you committed or just been charged with any crimes at all.

该指南还表示，如果您犯有或刚刚被指控犯有任何罪行，您可以优先被驱逐出境。

And people call asking about what they thought of as minor offenses on their records-- traffic tickets, DUIs-- would they now be prioritized for removal?

人们打电话询问他们认为记录中的轻微违法行为——交通罚单、酒后驾车——现在是否会优先删除这些行为？

I talked to one of the lawyers who spoke at the consulate, Salvador Cicero.

我与在领事馆发言的一位律师萨尔瓦多·西塞罗进行了交谈。

He's a green card holder himself.

他本人也是绿卡持有者。

He says one of the new guidelines he finds most chilling is the one that says to prioritize for removal anyone who quote, "in the judgment of an immigration officer poses a risk to public safety or national security."

他说，他认为最令人不寒而栗的新指导方针之一是，优先驱逐那些引用“移民官员判断对公共安全或国家安全构成风险”的人。

Yeah, that is the scariest thing, I think.

是的，我认为这是最可怕的事情。

If, in his discretion, you pose a threat to public safety.

如果根据他的判断，您对公共安全构成威胁。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Does that mean that if I am loitering, you are a threat to public safety.

这是否意味着如果我闲逛，你就会对公共安全构成威胁。

You're out.

你出去了。

I mean, how wide is that power?

我的意思是，这个力量有多大？

It's incredibly vague, and that is a problem.

它非常模糊，这是一个问题。

I mean, as it reads, it hasn't been further defined as of yet.

我的意思是，正如它所读的那样，它尚未得到进一步定义。

So for the moment, green card holders, undocumented immigrants-- nobody knows what to expect.

因此，目前，绿卡持有者、无证移民——没有人知道会发生什么。

And that uncertainty has led to a lot of fear.

这种不确定性导致了很多恐惧。

Cuca's husband, Ignacio, told me he's become paranoid.

库卡的丈夫伊格纳西奥告诉我，他变得偏执了。

He'll see a truck with weird lights on the highway and worry that it's immigration.

他会在高速公路上看到一辆带有奇怪灯光的卡车，并担心这是移民。

Well, today on our show, we have a program about rules and what happens when they're vague and randomly enforced and you can't predict what's going to happen to you-- even if you're in a tropical paradise.

好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们有一个关于规则的节目，以及当规则模糊且随机执行时会发生什么，并且你无法预测会发生在你身上的事情 - 即使你在热带天堂。

That's the first half of the show.

这就是节目的前半部分。

We're going to Hawaii.

我们要去夏威夷。

In the second half of the show, we have the rules in a very different sort of paradise.

在节目的后半部分，我们在一个非常不同的天堂里制定了规则。

We're talking about the New Jersey suburbs.

我们正在谈论新泽西郊区。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

I remember once visiting Hawaii and hearing about this island that, as outsiders and as white people, we were not allowed to go to.

我记得有一次去夏威夷，听说这个岛，作为外来者和白人，我们不被允许去。

It was just for native Hawaiians, I remember being told.

我记得有人告诉我，这只是针对夏威夷本地人的。

People sometimes call it the Forbidden Island.

人们有时称其为禁岛。

It's real name is Niihau.

它的真名是尼豪。

And even if you're from Hawaii, apparently it's a mysterious place.

即使你来自夏威夷，显然那也是一个神秘的地方。

I pretty much knew nothing about Niihau.

我对尼豪几乎一无所知。

This is Adia White, a public radio reporter who grew up on Maui.

这是阿迪亚·怀特 (Adia White)，一位在毛伊岛长大的公共广播电台记者。

In school, we learned a lot about all of the other islands.

在学校里，我们了解了很多关于其他岛屿的知识。

A little bit about that history.

稍微了解一下那段历史。

But for Niihau, they pretty much told us nothing.

但对于 Niihau 来说，他们几乎什么也没告诉我们。

The little I knew about it was that it's a piece of the original Hawaii.

我对它所知甚少，它是原始夏威夷的一部分。

That's what everyone kind of thought about it, right?

大家都是这么想的吧？

Like on Niihau people live as they did before Hawaii was colonized.

就像尼豪岛上的人们一样，过着夏威夷被殖民之前的生活。

It's what it's supposed to be like.

这就是它应该的样子。

So for instance, it predates the kind of Hawaiian music that you're hearing right now.

例如，它早于您现在听到的夏威夷音乐。

You can see Niihau on a map.

您可以在地图上看到尼好岛。

It's to the west of Kauai.

它位于考艾岛以西。

About 70 square miles or so.

大约70平方英里左右。

A lot smaller than Maui or Oahu or anyplace in Hawaii you normally hear about.

比毛伊岛或欧胡岛或您通常听说的夏威夷任何地方都要小得多。

Growing up, Adia didn't know what to picture it was like there.

在成长过程中，阿迪亚不知道该如何想象那里的情况。

But she figured--

但她想——

Like an original-- a traditional Hawaiian village where it was governed by native Hawaiians.

就像一个原始的——一个传统的夏威夷村庄，由夏威夷土著人统治。

They decided who could come and who could go.

他们决定谁可以来，谁可以走。

They decided who they wanted to invite and how they wanted to live.

他们决定要邀请谁以及他们想要如何生活。

So about a year ago, she started looking into what happens on Niihau.

大约一年前，她开始调查 Niihau 上发生的事情。

And she learned that it is not that at all.

她发现事实并非如此。

It's basically a family of white people who own everything and run the place even though they don't live there.

它基本上是一个白人家庭，他们拥有一切并经营这个地方，即使他们不住在那里。

They set the rules, which seem to be unwritten.

他们制定了规则，这些规则似乎不成文。

And some of the rules are administered in an unpredictable sort of ad hoc way.

有些规则是以不可预测的临时方式管理的。

One of our producers, Sean Cole, joined Adia in reporting the story this fall.

今年秋天，我们的制片人之一肖恩·科尔 (Sean Cole) 与阿迪亚 (Adia) 一起报道了这个故事。

You can't just go to Niihau and interview the islanders.

你不能只去尼好岛采访岛民。

And even the ones who leave Niihau and move to the other Hawaiian Islands, they're pretty tight-lipped about life there.

即使是那些离开尼豪岛搬到夏威夷其他岛屿的人，他们对那里的生活也守口如瓶。

But Sean and Adia found a handful of people who were willing to talk to them.

但肖恩和阿迪亚找到了一些愿意与他们交谈的人。

Here's what they learned.

这是他们学到的东西。

How Niihau got this way isn't a secret at all.

Niihau 是如何做到这一点的根本不是什么秘密。

Basically, back in the 1860s, when Hawaii was still a kingdom, the king sold the island to a white family for $10,000 in gold.

基本上，早在 1860 年代，夏威夷还是一个王国时，国王就以 10,000 美元的黄金将岛屿卖给了一个白人家庭。

They wanted to ranch cattle on it.

他们想在上面放牛。

And there was a community of about a thousand native Hawaiians living there.

那里居住着大约一千名夏威夷原住民的社区。

According to the family, before the ink was even dry on the contract handing over the land, the king looked at them and said, the day may come when Hawaiians are not as strong in Hawaii as they are now.

据家人称，在移交土地的合同上的墨水还没有干之前，国王看着他们说：“也许有一天，夏威夷人在夏威夷不像现在那么强大了。”

And if that day comes, please do what you can to help them.

如果那一天到来，请尽你所能帮助他们。

That day, of course, did come, and the family has tried to keep their promise to the king all these years.

当然，这一天确实到来了，多年来，这个家族一直在努力履行对国王的承诺。

And the way they interpreted helping the villagers was, let's preserve this place to be just as it was in 1864 when we bought it.

他们对帮助村民的解释是，让我们保留这个地方，让它保持 1864 年我们买下它时的样子。

So this is the last place on Earth where the language everybody uses every day is Hawaiian.

所以这是地球上最后一个每个人每天使用的语言是夏威夷语的地方。

They learn it as their first language and they speak an older form of Hawaiian than you hear anywhere else.

他们将夏威夷语作为他们的第一语言来学习，并且他们说的夏威夷语比你在其他地方听到的更古老。

Also, the lifestyle there is pretty spartan.

此外，那里的生活方式非常简朴。

No running water, no electricity, no bathrooms.

没有自来水，没有电，没有浴室。

So it's outhouses that we use, yeah.

所以我们使用的是户外厕所，是的。

This is Tuti Sanborn.

这是图蒂·桑伯恩。

She lives on Oahu now, but her family's from Niihau and she lived there every summer as a kid.

她现在住在欧胡岛，但她的家人来自尼豪岛，她小时候每年夏天都住在那里。

She's the kind of person who uses phrases like "feel the aloha" in earnest and gets away with it.

她是那种认真使用“感受阿罗哈”这样的短语并侥幸逃脱的人。

So as the evening approached, we'd gather all of the lanterns and refuel them with kerosene.

因此，当夜幕降临时，我们会把所有的灯笼收集起来，并给它们加油煤油。

I remember my mom's kitchen.

我记得我妈妈的厨房。

There was a kerosene stove in it.

里面有一个煤油炉。

I remember doing that kind of stuff.

我记得做过类似的事情。

I remember going to the wells to gather water.

我记得去井边打水。

Tuti and the other Niihauans we talked to all described the same thing.

图蒂和我们采访过的其他尼豪安人都描述了同样的事情。

No paved roads, no streetlights, one-floor houses with tin roofs, big yards, horses in the yards, peacocks and wild turkeys and pigs roaming around.

没有铺好的道路，没有路灯，只有铁皮屋顶的一层房屋，大院子，院子里有马，孔雀、野火鸡和猪在周围闲逛。

And they fish and hunt for their food a lot of the time.

他们经常钓鱼和狩猎来获取食物。

There's a church in the center of the village, and a kind of meeting hall.

村子中心有一座教堂，还有一个会议厅。

A little school.

一个小学校。

But no stores or anything.

但没有商店或任何东西。

In fact, no one uses money on Niihau.

事实上，没有人在 Niihau 上使用金钱。

There's no formal medical care there, either.

那里也没有正规的医疗服务。

No law enforcement.

没有执法。

The pastor of the church settles any disputes that flare up.

教会的牧师会解决任何爆发的争端。

These days, they have solar panels to charge their phones and iPads and a few trucks to drive around the island.

如今，他们用太阳能电池板为手机和 iPad 充电，还有几辆卡车在岛上行驶。

But mostly it's Hawaii circa 1864.

但主要是 1864 年左右的夏威夷。

Christian missionaries had been in the islands for decades by then.

那时基督教传教士已经在这些岛屿上呆了几十年了。

People told us that church attendance on Niihau is mandatory.

人们告诉我们，参加 Niihau 教堂是强制性的。

Also, the family that owns Niihau, the Robinsons, are famous abstainers from all vice, and they've always required the residents of the island to live by those same values.

此外，拥有 Niihau 的罗宾逊家族是著名的戒除一切恶行的人，他们始终要求岛上的居民遵循同样的价值观。

No drugs.

没有药物。

No guns.

没有枪。

And if you're caught, say, drinking or doing drugs, you can get kicked off the island, which feels like a weird phrase to be saying out loud about real people.

如果你被发现喝酒或吸毒，你可能会被赶出岛上，这对于真实的人来说是一个奇怪的短语。

The Robinsons insist that they're simply protecting the villagers from all the awfulness of the modern world, just like they promised the king.

罗宾逊一家坚称，他们只是在保护村民免受现代世界所有可怕的影响，就像他们向国王承诺的那样。

The oldest members of the Robinson family are Keith and Bruce.

罗宾逊家族最年长的成员是基思和布鲁斯。

They're brothers, both in their 70s.

他们是兄弟，都70多岁了。

There was a documentary made about Keith in 2005 called Robinson Crusader, about his work to preserve endangered plant species.

2005 年，有一部关于基思的纪录片《罗宾逊十字军》讲述了他为保护濒危植物物种所做的工作。

And he talks a little about Niihau in it.

他在其中谈到了一些关于 Niihau 的事情。

I haven't seen any aircraft crashing into skyscrapers here.

我在这里没有看到任何飞机撞上摩天大楼。

I haven't seen any plagues of AIDS here.

我在这里没有看到任何艾滋病瘟疫。

As far as I know, there isn't one case of AIDS on the island.

据我所知，岛上没有一例艾滋病病例。

We have no drug problem.

我们没有毒品问题。

If there is any kind of a social problem here, the elders of the village sort it out by themselves.

如果这里出现什么社会问题，村里的长辈们自己解决。

And if they can't handle it, they come to us.

如果他们无法处理，就会来找我们。

If this sounds like an oddly colonialist sort of project to have lasted into the 21st century, with white people setting the rules for native Hawaiians, I want to be clear.

如果这听起来像是一个持续到 21 世纪的奇怪的殖民主义项目，由白人为夏威夷原住民制定规则，我想澄清一下。

The villagers on Niihau are American citizens.

Niihau 的村民是美国公民。

They just happen to live on an island that's privately owned by this family.

他们只是碰巧住在这个家族私人拥有的一个岛上。

They can move away anytime they want.

他们可以随时搬走。

But if they want to stay, they have to respect the rules, that this is a regulated paradise.

但如果他们想留下来，就必须遵守规则，因为这是一个受监管的天堂。

And people do want to stay.

人们确实想留下来。

Everyone we spoke to who lived there, including people who have plenty of criticisms of the Robinsons, they all said they loved it.

我们采访过的每个住在那里的人，包括对罗宾逊一家有很多批评的人，他们都说他们喜欢这里。

Did everybody really go to church on Sunday or do they try to--

每个人都真的在周日去教堂吗？还是他们试图——

That was the only, only social event of the island besides parties, if they had parties.

如果他们有聚会的话，那是岛上除了聚会之外唯一的社交活动。

What were the parties like?

聚会是什么样的？

Were they drinking juice?

他们喝果汁吗？

Tuti Sanborn You know, the parties were two weeks long.

图蒂·桑伯恩 你知道，聚会持续了两周。

What?

什么？

Tuti Sanborn Two weeks-- every day.

图蒂·桑伯恩 两周——每天。

And on Sunday.

周日。

And on Sunday.

周日。

It's an island full of aloha.

这是一个充满阿罗哈的岛屿。

So they'd have the parties for two weeks.

所以他们要举办两周的聚会。

So when they ordered food, they ordered a lot.

所以他们点菜的时候，点的很多。

They have canned goods and other foods shipped over from Kauai to supplement the fishing and hunting.

他们从考艾岛运来罐头食品和其他食品来补充渔业和狩猎活动。

Or they go to Kauai and shop themselves sometimes.

或者他们有时会去考艾岛自己购物。

A couple of the rules on Niihau seem a little more arbitrary than the others.

Niihau 的一些规则似乎比其他规则更随意一些。

Pulani Kahokuloa says his dad was kicked off the island when Pulani was 13, and Pulani left with him.

普拉尼·卡霍库洛亚 (Pulani Kahokuloa) 说，普拉尼 13 岁时，他的父亲被赶出了岛上，普拉尼也跟着他离开了。

That was 30 years ago.

那是30年前的事了。

He could go back today, except for one thing.

他今天可以回去，除了一件事。

What?

什么？

Pulani Kahokuloa (CHUCKLING) Yeah.

普拉尼·卡霍库洛亚（咯咯笑）：是的。

That's kind of ridiculous.

这有点可笑。

No beards are allowed on the island.

岛上不允许留胡子。

And no long hair on the guys.

而且男生都没有长头发。

Pulani's a real ponytail, backwards-ball-cap kind of dude.

普拉尼是一个真正的马尾辫、向后戴棒球帽的家伙。

And his sons have long hair, too.

他的儿子们也留着长发。

They'd all have to get haircuts if they want to go back.

如果他们想回去，就必须理发。

I don't know what's the reason, because I had uncles that showed me older pictures when they were young.

我不知道是什么原因，因为我有叔叔们给我看他们年轻时的老照片。

They had like Elvis hair, like whoosh, like long hair.

他们有着像猫王一样的头发，像嗖嗖的，像长发。

So it's a new rule.

所以这是一个新规则。

Pulani Kahokuloa Yeah, it's a new rule.

Pulani Kahokuloa 是的，这是一条新规则。

It's a silly rule.

这是一个愚蠢的规则。

Pulani has a really hard time with the haircut thing.

普拉尼在理发这件事上遇到了很大的困难。

He kept coming back to it during our interview.

在我们的采访中，他不断地回到这个话题。

We'd be talking about the rules in general and his distaste for them, and then he'd say something like this.

我们会谈论一般规则以及他对这些规则的厌恶，然后他会说这样的话。

Especially the silly one of cutting hair.

尤其是剪头发这个傻事。

That one.

那个。

That's the mean one that blows everybody's mind away when they ask me, how come you cannot go back to Niihau [INAUDIBLE]?

当每个人问我，你为什么不能回到 Niihau [听不清] 时，这就是让每个人大吃一惊的卑鄙手段。

Oh, he's got to cut his hair.

哦，他得剪头发了。

What?

什么？

No way.

决不。

Hawaiians had long hair back in the days.

那时夏威夷人留着长发。

We looked like cavemen.

我们看起来就像穴居人。

I'd say, yeah.

我会说，是的。

Well, not today.

好吧，不是今天。

You gotta cut the hair.

你得把头发剪了

It does.

确实如此。

Adia White And there's a rule that Tuti Sanborn violated.

阿迪亚·怀特（Adia White） 图蒂·桑伯恩（Tuti Sanborn）违反了一条规则。

It's a little more nuanced.

这有点微妙。

[SPEAKING HAWAIIAN] Leimana Kanahele [SPEAKING HAWAIIAN]

[说夏威夷语] Leimana Kanahele [说夏威夷语]

She wanted to document what life was like on the island.

她想记录岛上的生活。

She was worried those traditions would be forgotten.

她担心这些传统会被遗忘。

So she writes about the island sometimes.

所以她有时会写一些关于这个岛的文章。

And she did a series of TV interviews with her family, asking them what they remembered.

她对家人进行了一系列电视采访，询问他们还记得什么。

Just innocuous stuff.

只是无害的东西。

[SPEAKING HAWAIIAN] Tuti Sanborn I did one with my sister.

[说夏威夷语] Tuti Sanborn 我和我姐姐一起做了一个。

I did a few.

我做了几个。

In a way, she was doing the same thing the Robinsons were doing-- trying to preserve native Hawaiianness.

在某种程度上，她正在做罗宾逊一家所做的同样的事情——试图保留夏威夷本土特色。

Capture it in video amber.

将其捕捉到琥珀色视频中。

But the Robinsons didn't see it that way, and now she's not allowed back on the island.

但罗宾逊一家并不这么认为，现在她不被允许回到岛上。

To them, the interviews, the articles, all of that violated what you could call the first rule of Niihau.

对他们来说，采访、文章，所有这些都违反了所谓的你好第一条规则。

You do not talk about Niihau.

你不谈论Niihau。

This punishment-- barring some people from the island, even people who left by choice-- this was the thing the Niihauans we talked to were the most bitter about.

这种惩罚——禁止一些人离开岛上，甚至是自愿离开的人——这是我们采访过的尼豪安人最痛苦的事情。

Tuti's sister, Doreen-- everybody calls her Auntie Deer-- has been barred from moving back to Niihau because she spent too much time away.

图蒂的妹妹多琳（大家都叫她鹿阿姨）被禁止搬回尼豪，因为她外出的时间太长了。

She lived on the island until she was about 30, but then she moved to Kauai to take care of her mom, who had a stroke.

她在岛上一直生活到 30 岁左右，但后来她搬到考艾岛照顾中风的妈妈。

After her parents died, she wanted to move back, but she couldn't, she says, because of Leiana.

她说，父母去世后，她想搬回去，但因为莱安娜的缘故，她不能搬回去。

Leiana is a matriarch of the Robinson family, and she's the one you have to call when you want to go back to visit or to live full-time again.

莱安娜是罗宾逊家族的女族长，当你想回去探望或再次全职生活时，你必须打电话给她。

She said when we come here and stay here like one year or two years, we are considered outsiders.

她说，当我们来到这里并在这里呆上一年或两年时，我们就被视为外人。

That hurt me.

这伤害了我。

In my heart, it was like-- it was broken.

我的心里，就像——破碎了。

My heart broke.

我的心碎了。

I said, how can she say that?

我说，她怎么能这么说呢？

Because I was raised there.

因为我是在那里长大的。

When I was born, I was raised there.

当我出生时，我在那里长大。

She said that we belonged here, not there.

她说我们属于这里，不属于那里。

I broke down, cried, and said, oh, how can that be?

我崩溃了，哭了，说，哦，怎么会这样？

Because it's like the island is calling me to go back there.

因为就好像这座岛在召唤我回到那里。

And it doesn't help that you can see Niihau from Kauai.

而且，您可以从考艾岛看到尼豪岛，这也无济于事。

Driving up and down the road that runs along the ocean, Niihau is a clear mountainous hump just a hop across the water.

沿着海边的道路行驶，尼豪岛 (Niihau) 是一座清澈的山丘，距离水面仅一步之遥。

It feels so reachable, like you could just take a boat there yourself.

感觉如此触手可及，就像你可以自己乘船到达一样。

But of course, you can't.

但当然，你不能。

It's private property.

这是私人财产。

The younger of the two Robinson brothers, Bruce Robinson, is considered the main boss of the island.

罗宾逊两兄弟中的弟弟布鲁斯·罗宾逊被认为是岛上的主要首领。

But as he's gotten older, the day-to-day management of Niihau has shifted to his wife, Leiana, which was really exciting for the villagers because Leiana's one of them.

但随着他年龄的增长，Niihau 的日常管理工作已经转移到他的妻子莱安娜身上，这对村民来说真的很令人兴奋，因为莱安娜就是他们中的一员。

She's native Hawaiian.

她是夏威夷人。

She was actually the daughter of the pastor on Niihau, 30 years or so younger than Bruce.

她实际上是尼豪岛牧师的女儿，比布鲁斯小三十岁左右。

Tuti Sanborn remembers when they got together.

图蒂·桑伯恩还记得他们聚在一起的情景。

Honestly, I thought, oh, great.

老实说，我想，哦，太棒了。

Now we have our own that's in a place where she can make changes, and make good changes, and don't have to rule over our people so strictly, yeah?

现在我们有了自己的地方，她可以做出改变，做出好的改变，而不必如此严格地统治我们的人民，是吗？

But no. She's just like the Robinsons.

但没有。她就像罗宾逊一家。

She treats the people just like the Robinsons have treated the people.

她对待人民就像罗宾逊一家对待人民一样。

Which is?

哪个是？

Tuti Sanborn Strict.

图蒂桑伯恩严格。

I thought it would change, where she would allow me to go.

我以为事情会改变，她会让我去的。

It didn't change at all.

它根本没有改变。

It got worse.

情况变得更糟了。

Yeah.

是的。

Tuti says she's asked Leiana a bunch of times if she can go back to the island.

图蒂说她多次问莱安娜是否可以回到岛上。

The way it works is that the Robinsons have a military surplus barge, like in Saving Private Ryan-- the kind where the front drops down.

它的运作方式是罗宾逊一家有一艘军事剩余驳船，就像《拯救大兵瑞恩》中那样——前线下降的那种。

They ferry livestock with it, and fuel, and other supplies.

他们用它运送牲畜、燃料和其他物资。

And people who want to go back to Niihau can ride over on the barge.

想要返回尼好岛的人可以乘坐驳船过去。

Only 20 or 25 people can fit on board.

船上只能容纳 20 或 25 人。

The trip takes a couple of hours.

行程需要几个小时。

And they run pretty frequently, maybe three times a week.

而且它们运行得非常频繁，可能一周运行三次。

You just have to call and schedule it in advance.

您只需提前致电并安排即可。

And I remember calling on one occasion and she just said, oh, sorry, not at the moment.

我记得有一次打电话给她，她只是说，哦，抱歉，现在不行。

We cannot accommodate you right now.

我们现在无法接待您。

Their usual comment or response is, the barge is full.

他们通常的评论或回应是，驳船已满。

[LAUGHING]

[笑]

Like of other people going?

喜欢其他人去吗？

Tuti Sanborn Right.

图蒂·桑伯恩 对。

And things.

还有事情。

Tuti Sanborn Sorry, the barge is full.

图蒂·桑伯恩 抱歉，驳船已满。

There's no room.

没有空间了。

There's no space.

没有空间了。

You're laughing because that doesn't seem true.

你笑是因为这似乎不是真的。

Yeah, because I know who goes.

是的，因为我知道谁会去。

We all talk to each other and let each other know.

我们都互相交谈并让彼此知道。

How many times did you ask and how often?

您问了多少次以及多久一次？

Like three, four years consecutively I tried and was denied.

连续三年、四年我都尝试过，但都被拒绝了。

So I just kind of stopped after that.

所以在那之后我就停了下来。

Actually, no. I tried going to someone else.

事实上，没有。我试着去找别人。

I would ask someone that's influential in my family, can you go ask Leiana that I want to go to Niihau?

我会问家里有影响力的人，你能去问问Leiana我想去Niihau吗？

Still got denied.

还是被拒绝了。

And I'm like, whatever.

我想，无论如何。

You're still my cousin.

你仍然是我的表弟。

You cannot change that.

你无法改变这一点。

This is something we hadn't thought of, but it was so obvious once people pointed it out.

这是我们没有想到的，但是一旦人们指出这一点，它就变得如此明显。

On an island this small, everyone's going to be related in some way.

在这么小的岛上，每个人都会以某种方式相互联系。

So this dynamic between Tuti and Leiana, it's a family dynamic.

所以图蒂和莱安娜之间的这种动态是一种家庭动态。

They're cousins.

他们是表兄弟。

In fact, people use the word ohana, family, to describe the whole community of Niihauans, both on the island and off.

事实上，人们使用“ohana”（家庭）这个词来形容岛上和岛外的整个 Niihauan 社区。

But while Tuti is technically a member of the ohana, Leiana doesn't really consider her that anymore.

不过，虽然从技术上来说，图蒂是奥哈纳的成员，但莱安娜实际上已经不再这么认为她了。

And there's no court of appeals.

而且没有上诉法院。

No due process.

没有正当程序。

Leiana and the Robinson brothers had the last word.

莱安娜和罗宾逊兄弟有最后的决定权。

Contrary to what Auntie Deer told us, there are people who move away from Niihau to Kauai for a couple of years who are allowed to return, but those folks are more tied into Leiana's inner circle.

与鹿阿姨告诉我们的相反，有些人从尼豪岛搬到考艾岛几年后被允许返回，但这些人更多地与莱安娜的核心圈子联系在一起。

And as a result, they're really hard to interview.

结果，他们真的很难接受采访。

This is an important point.

这是很重要的一点。

The people that you're hearing from in this story, they're a pretty self-selecting group.

你在这个故事中听到的人，他们是一个非常自我选择的群体。

They talk to us because they either felt like they had nothing to lose or because they have some sort of issue with how the island is run, if not with Leiana herself.

他们与我们交谈是因为他们要么觉得自己没有什么可失去的，要么因为他们对岛屿的管理方式有某种问题，即使不是莱安娜本人。

With all this policing of who can come and go on the island, and all the people banned from moving back, we wondered how many folks are left living on Niihau.

由于对谁可以进出岛上进行了严格的管制，并且所有的人都被禁止搬回岛上，我们想知道还有多少人住在尼豪岛上。

Again, the whole point of this project is to try to preserve a place for native Hawaiians-- their culture and their language.

再说一遍，这个项目的重点是努力为夏威夷原住民保留一个地方——他们的文化和语言。

But even this most basic fact-- the population of Niihau-- was hard to pin down.

但即使是这个最基本的事实——尼豪岛的人口——也很难确定。

Right before the Robinson's ancestors bought the island in 1864, again, there were about a thousand people living on Niihau.

就在罗宾逊的祖先于 1864 年购买该岛之前，尼豪岛上居住着大约 1000 人。

That's according to the census.

这是根据人口普查得出的。

And they were worried what was going to happen when the haoles, the white people, took over.

他们担心当白人（即白人）接管后会发生什么。

In fact, the villagers wrote two letters to the Hawaiian government begging to buy or lease the island themselves, but nobody listened to them.

事实上，村民们给夏威夷政府写了两封信，请求自己购买或租赁该岛，但没有人听他们的。

Over the next four years, 700 people moved off of Niihau.

在接下来的四年里，700 人搬离了 Niihau。

The latest census from 2010 says there are 170 residents on Niihau.

2010 年最新人口普查显示 Niihau 有 170 名居民。

But Pulani Kahokuloa told us the community has really dwindled since then.

但普拉尼·卡霍库洛亚 (Pulani Kahokuloa) 告诉我们，从那时起，这个社区确实在萎缩。

Let's just see.

让我们看看吧。

Right now there is 1, 2, 3-- at least five families are left on Niihau.

现在有1、2、3——至少还有五个家庭留在Niihau。

So how many people is that?

那到底有多少人呢？

Pulani Kahokuloa About 21, 25 people?

Pulani Kahokuloa 大约 21、25 人？

Wait, what?

等等，什么？

There's only 25 people left on Niihau?

Niihau只剩下25人了？

Yep.

是的。

Just about.

大约。

But you can try and confirm it with Leiana first.

不过你可以先尝试和Leiana确认一下。

She might give you another different number.

她可能会给你另一个不同的号码。

I should say, by this point we had already started trying to get a hold of Leiana.

我应该说，此时我们已经开始试图抓住莱安娜了。

I left a voicemail at her office.

我在她的办公室留了语音邮件。

And then a retired reporter I got in touch with on Kauai told her we were working on this story, so I left a second voicemail.

然后我在考艾岛联系到的一位退休记者告诉她我们正在研究这个故事，所以我留下了第二封语音邮件。

In any case, we've asked several people how many villagers are left on the island of Niihau and the range that keeps coming up is between 35 and 50.

无论如何，我们询问了几个人 Niihau 岛上还剩下多少村民，不断出现的数字在 35 到 50 之间。

Even a grocery store clerk on Kauai who grew up on Niihau said there's almost nobody left there.

就连可爱岛一位在尼好岛长大的杂货店店员也表示，那里几乎已经空无一人。

He wouldn't go on tape, but when we told him what we were doing, he said, does this mean people will get to go back now?

他不会录下来，但当我们告诉他我们在做什么时，他说，这是否意味着人们现在可以回去了？

Is that what the story's about?

这就是故事的内容吗？

This is Ira Glass, This American Life.

这就是艾拉·格拉斯，《美国生活》。

Leave a message.

留言。

[BEEP]

[嘟嘟声]

Sean Cole Hi, Ira.

肖恩·科尔嗨，艾拉。

It's Sean.

是肖恩。

Contrary to popular belief, there is cell service on Niihau.

与普遍看法相反，Niihau 上有手机服务。

I am on Niihau.

我在尼好岛。

I'm standing on just the wildest beach that I've ever been to.

我正站在我去过的最狂野的海滩上。

By wild I mean kind of like wilderness.

我所说的“狂野”是指有点像荒野。

It's like this weird, untamed beach with these lava outcroppings in it.

这就像这个奇怪的、未开垦的海滩，里面有熔岩露头。

And the water is this unreal multicolored organism.

水就是这种不真实的五彩有机体。

It's just fantastic here.

这里真是太棒了。

So I thought I should call you from Niihau.

所以我想我应该从 Niihau 给你打电话。

And I'll see you soon.

我很快就会见到你。

All right, bye.

好吧，再见。

Adia!

阿迪亚！

Adia White There is one way outsiders can set foot on Niihau.

阿迪亚·怀特（Adia White） 外来者可以通过一种方式踏上尼豪岛。

Back in the '80s, the Robinsons bought a helicopter partly so they could respond to medical emergencies on the island.

早在 80 年代，罗宾逊一家购买了一架直升机，部分原因是为了应对岛上的医疗紧急情况。

And to offset the cost of it, they started offering tourist trips to Niihau.

为了抵消成本，他们开始提供前往 Niihau 的旅游服务。

Not to the village.

不去村子。

You still really can't get anywhere near the village.

你仍然无法到达村庄附近的任何地方。

But anyone with $440, who's not afraid to ride in a helicopter, can take this half-day tour where you soar above the island and then land for a few hours on its northernmost beach.

但只要有 440 美元，只要不害怕乘坐直升机，就可以参加这个半日游，您可以在岛上翱翔，然后在最北端的海滩上降落几个小时。

It's a beach the villagers use themselves, though they stay away when tourists are around.

这是村民们自己使用的海滩，尽管当游客在附近时他们会远离这里。

So there were no people.

所以没有人。

Not a single building in sight except this one weather-beaten pavilion with a storage hut across from it.

除了这座饱经风霜的凉亭和对面的储藏室外，看不到任何其他建筑物。

So miles of empty beach.

空荡荡的海滩有数英里。

And then, behind us, this baking landscape that is not beach, but red dirt, also vast, dotted with scrubby brush and dry grasses.

然后，在我们身后，这片烘烤的风景不是海滩，而是红色的泥土，同样广阔，点缀着灌木丛和干草。

It was like a piece of a foreign planet had fallen into the middle of the Pacific.

就好像外星球的一块碎片掉进了太平洋中央。

Adia and I agreed it was unlike any place either of us had ever seen.

阿迪亚和我一致认为，这与我们见过的任何地方都不一样。

It was kind of like we had discovered an island.

这有点像我们发现了一座岛屿。

On the flight over, the helicopter pilot acted as a tour guide, pointing out sights, talking about the wildlife on the island.

在飞机上空，直升机飞行员充当导游，指点景点，谈论岛上的野生动物。

He told us that Niihau had been deemed by some the quietest place in the world.

他告诉我们，尼好岛被一些人认为是世界上最安静的地方。

Although, as he pointed out, it's not clear how they measure those things.

不过，正如他指出的那样，目前尚不清楚他们如何衡量这些事情。

I wouldn't call this the quietest place in the world at all.

我根本不会称这里为世界上最安静的地方。

It's not quiet.

并不安静。

Adia White It's really loud here.

Adia White 这里真的很吵。

It's very loud here.

这里非常吵闹。

We spent four hours roaming around on the beach, which didn't give us any more understanding of what life was like there.

我们在海滩上闲逛了四个小时，但这并没有让我们更多地了解那里的生活。

So here's some other stuff we learned.

这是我们学到的其他一些东西。

First and foremost, it's been hard for the Robinsons to keep this place going.

首先，罗宾逊一家很难维持这个地方。

The ranching business is mostly unprofitable.

牧场业务大多无利可图。

They've tried other sources of revenue-- making honey, manufacturing charcoal, neither of which worked.

他们尝试过其他收入来源——生产蜂蜜、制造木炭，但都不起作用。

They also run hunting safaris, where people pay to shoot the wild pigs and other game.

他们还开展狩猎之旅，人们付费射杀野猪和其他动物。

And there are the helicopter tours, of course.

当然，还有直升机之旅。

But really, the most stable source of income on the island thus far is one that won't sound traditional, nor Hawaiian.

但实际上，迄今为止岛上最稳定的收入来源听起来并不传统，也不是夏威夷的。

Military contracts.

军事合同。

There's a Navy radar facility on the island, and a recent contract provides for 19 full-time-equivalent jobs.

岛上有一个海军雷达设施，最近的一份合同提供了 19 个全职工作岗位。

Also, various Navy exercises have been carried out on the island.

此外，岛上还进行了各种海军演习。

The Robinsons seem to be proud of their contracts with the military.

罗宾逊一家似乎对他们与军方的合同感到自豪。

Keith, the older brother, talked with the villagers about working with the Navy at a public hearing that was held on Niihau back in 2015.

2015 年，哥哥基思 (Keith) 在 Niihau 举行的公开听证会上与村民讨论了与海军合作的问题。

Without that money, frankly, your community, your jobs would not have survived.

坦率地说，如果没有这笔钱，你的社区、你的工作就无法生存。

It's just that simple.

就是这么简单。

For the time being, US Navy is your source of income that keeps all of you going here and which keeps us going and allows us to pay the taxes on this place.

目前，美国海军是你们的收入来源，让你们所有人都来到这里，让我们继续前进，让我们能够在这个地方纳税。

The villagers are paid to maintain the radar facility-- and the ranch, for that matter.

村民们获得报酬来维护雷达设施以及牧场。

They live rent-free.

他们免租居住。

We heard that some receive food stamps and other public benefits.

我们听说有些人领取食品券和其他公共福利。

As to the question of whether military contracts are compatible with the mission of preserving native Hawaiianness, Keith has said, it's a lot more compatible than tourism.

至于军事合同是否符合保护夏威夷本土特色的使命，基思表示，这比旅游业更符合。

The military is stealth, he said, and it doesn't leave litter behind.

他说，军队是隐秘的，不会留下垃圾。

We tried a couple more times to reach Leiana to get her take on everything we'd heard, and it started to seem like a dead end.

我们又尝试了几次联系莱安娜，询问她对我们所听到的一切的看法，但这似乎是一个死胡同。

And then on our last full day on Kauai, a little before 9:00 AM, my phone rang.

然后，在我们在考艾岛的最后一整天，上午 9:00 之前，我的手机响了。

It was her.

是她。

I know what your name is, she said, but I don't know what your mission is.

我知道你叫什么名字，她说，但我不知道你的使命是什么。

I explained as best I could, but I was nervous.

我尽我所能地解释，但我很紧张。

In our minds, Leiana had been built up into this towering intimidator.

在我们的心目中，莱安娜已经被塑造成这个高大的威胁者。

But finally, she agreed to speak with us.

但最终，她同意与我们交谈。

Meet me at the helicopter office in an hour, she said.

“一个小时后到直升机办公室来见我，”她说。

Somehow, both of our voices became very high when we got there.

不知何故，当我们到达那里时，我们俩的声音都变得很高。

Leiana's decidedly not a towering intimidator.

莱安娜绝对不是一个高大的威胁者。

She's maybe 5' 4", with long, dark hair, plaid shirt, jeans, and boots.

她大概身高 5 英尺 4 英寸，留着长长的黑发，穿着格子衬衫、牛仔裤和靴子。

She was very gracious and pleasant with us.

她对我们非常亲切和愉快。

Sure.

当然。

Uh-- Adia White But as soon as she saw the microphone, her eyes widened.

呃——Adia White 但一看到麦克风，她就瞪大了眼睛。

She said she didn't want to go on tape.

她说她不想录下来。

So you're not going to hear her voice in this story.

所以你不会在这个故事中听到她的声音。

She said she tries to stay out of the media, if possible.

她说，如果可能的话，她会尽量远离媒体。

She doesn't feel like she should be speaking for the whole community.

她觉得自己不应该代表整个社区发言。

And she clearly doesn't have a lot of time for sit-downs like this.

她显然没有太多时间进行这样的坐下来。

During our visit, her cell phone wouldn't stop ringing-- and the office phone, too.

在我们拜访期间，她的手机一直响个不停，办公室电话也是如此。

She's the point person for everyone now, she said.

她说，她现在是每个人的焦点人物。

But she said she'd try to answer any questions we had.

但她说她会尽力回答我们的任何问题。

And then she said, you can phrase the answers however you want.

然后她说，你可以用你想要的方式表达答案。

We told Leiana who else we'd talked to, and as soon as we said the first name, Tuti Sanborn, she did a kind of epic eye roll.

我们告诉莱安娜我们还和谁交谈过，当我们说出第一个名字图蒂·桑伯恩时，她做了一个史诗般的翻白眼。

Well, Tuti.

嗯，图蒂。

I mean, she said, but she stopped herself.

我的意思是，她说，但她停住了。

OK, OK, she said.

好吧，好吧，她说。

Who else?

还有谁？

Pulani Kahokuloa, I said, and she got tense again.

普拉尼·卡霍库洛亚，我说，她又紧张起来。

You're all the way over here, she said, gesturing away from herself.

“你已经到这里来了，”她说着，指了指自己。

She said our story was clearly one-sided.

她说我们的故事显然是片面的。

And that's why we came to you, I said.

这就是我们来找你的原因，我说。

And so we got into it.

我们就这样开始了。

Leiana said there is a limit to how long you can be away out of the community and still be let back on Niihau.

Leiana 说，离开社区但仍可返回 Niihau 的时间是有限的。

She can only accommodate so many people, and she has to make choices.

她只能容纳这么多人，她必须做出选择。

She said, I don't know what Tuti's purpose is for going home.

她说，我不知道图蒂回家的目的是什么。

She's crossed a lot of lines.

她已经跨越了很多界限。

What lines, I said.

什么台词，我说。

She said, people of the village don't want her being the voice of the people, meaning all the ways that Tuti documents life on Niihau for the rest of the world.

她说，村里的人不希望她成为人民的声音，这意味着图蒂为世界其他地方记录尼豪岛生活的所有方式。

And then she gave us this one example that really stuck in her craw that Tuti hadn't mentioned.

然后她给我们举了一个让她感到困惑的例子，而图蒂却没有提到。

She said Tuti had worked as a consultant on an episode of Hawaii Five-O, the new rebooted version that's on TV now.

她说图蒂曾在电视上播出的新版《夏威夷五人组》的一集中担任顾问。

In the episode, a college professor is murdered after sneaking onto Niihau to steal a rare plant.

在这一集中，一名大学教授潜入 Niihau 偷窃一种稀有植物后被谋杀。

There are aerial shots of Niihau in the show, although the scenes in the actual village looked like they were filmed somewhere else.

剧中有 Niihau 的航拍镜头，尽管实际村庄的场景看起来像是在其他地方拍摄的。

Tuti herself plays a village elder.

图蒂本人扮演一名村长。

[SPEAKING HAWAIIAN] Adia White Leiana said, it's not her right to be their point person on Niihau, especially a big production like that.

[夏威夷语] Adia White Leiana 说，她没有权利成为 Niihau 的核心人物，尤其是这样的大制作。

They should have come to us.

他们应该来找我们。

I've worked with Jurassic Park, she said.

“我曾与侏罗纪公园合作过，”她说。

Which is true.

这是真的。

There's a scene in one of the movies of the Robinsons' helicopter flying over one of their properties on Kauai.

在其中一部电影中，有这样一个场景：罗宾逊一家的直升机飞过他们在考艾岛的一处房产。

And so Leiana felt cut out of this one.

所以莱安娜觉得自己被排除在外了。

Why is this any different, she said.

为什么这有什么不同，她说。

Why are we killing each other?

我们为什么要互相残杀？

We did a little fact-checking on this.

我们对此做了一些事实核查。

For what it's worth, Tuti was not the point person on Niihau for Hawaii Five-O.

无论如何，图蒂并不是 Niihau 夏威夷五人制比赛的关键人物。

We asked Leiana about the haircut rule-- Pulani's big favorite.

我们向莱安娜询问了普拉尼最喜欢的发型规则。

She said they don't like tattoos on the island, either, or piercings, or hair dye.

她说他们也不喜欢岛上的纹身、穿孔或染发剂。

All of that stuff has gotten really out of hand, she says.

她说，所有这些事情都已经失控了。

And she says church attendance on Niihau is not mandatory.

她还表示，去 Niihau 教堂做礼拜并不是强制性的。

Pulani's complaining caught her off guard, and she refuted him on pretty much every point.

普拉尼的抱怨让她措手不及，她几乎每一个观点都反驳了他。

She gave a much higher number for how many people are on the island than Pulani did.

她给出的岛上有多少人的数字比普拉尼高得多。

Not 25.

不是25。

More like 125.

更像125。

And she told us, sometimes it's the community who doesn't want someone to come back on the island, in which case, they'll tell her, and she'll deliver the news.

她告诉我们，有时社区不希望有人回到岛上，在这种情况下，他们会告诉她，她会传递消息。

She's fine with being the bad guy, she says.

她说，她很乐意做坏人。

"You interviewed a whole different group than my group," she said.

“你采访的群体与我的群体完全不同，”她说。

"We may be of the same blood, but they're not with me.

“我们也许流着同样的血，但他们不属于我。

I have to listen to the community.

我必须倾听社区的声音。

If you take a hike, you take a hike.

如果你徒步旅行，你就徒步旅行。

That's all there is to it.

这就是全部内容了。

They've given their heart elsewhere, so why should I waste my energy for these people that have come to the table to say blah, blah, blah, blah, blah over these people that have dedicated their life to going back to the family?

他们已经把心献给了别处，那么我为什么要为这些来到谈判桌前对这些为回归家庭而奉献一生的人说废话、废话、废话、废话、废话的人浪费精力呢？

It's a really-- you can put it however you want to."

这真的是——你可以随心所欲地表达它。”

Also, we finally got to talk with someone who is part of that close-knit group of Niihauans Leiana talked about-- Pulani's sister, actually, who also didn't want her voice on the radio.

此外，我们终于与莱安娜谈到的 Niihauans 紧密团体的成员之一进行了交谈——实际上是普拉尼的妹妹，她也不希望自己的声音出现在广播中。

She said, "we like Niihau the way it is.

她说：“我们喜欢尼好岛本来的样子。

And I believe the Robinsons are keeping it that way.

我相信罗宾逊一家会保持这种状态。

They're really good people.

他们真的是好人。

Honestly, if you were the owner of an island but you live on Kauai, would you pay for the fuel for the barge to send people over for free and not charge for each box that they ship to Niihau?

老实说，如果你是一个岛屿的所有者，但你住在考艾岛，你会支付驳船的燃料费用来免费送人过来，而不是为他们运送到尼豪岛的每个盒子收取费用吗？

That means a lot to us.

这对我们来说意义重大。

They really do take care of the people.

他们确实很关心人民。

I can't believe you guys came all the way from the mainland."

我不敢相信你们大老远从大陆赶来。”

Thinking about all the rules on Niihau and the way they're implemented, at some point, I started to wonder.

思考 Niihau 的所有规则以及它们的实施方式，在某些时候，我开始怀疑。

Should they even keep it going?

他们还应该继续下去吗？

When we were talking to Pulani, who clearly has a lot of problems with the way the island is run, we asked him about that.

当我们与普拉尼交谈时，我们向他询问了这个问题，他显然对岛屿的运营方式有很多问题。

And he told us this story about his brother Iaone.

他给我们讲了关于他弟弟 Iaone 的故事。

Iaone's married and has kids.

Iaone 已婚并有孩子。

He lived on Niihau all his life until he decided to try to make a go of it in modern life.

他一生都住在尼豪岛上，直到他决定尝试在现代生活中尝试一番。

So he moved on to Kauai with his family and got a job driving semi trucks-- delivery trucks.

于是，他和家人一起搬到考艾岛，找到了一份驾驶半挂卡车（送货卡车）的工作。

But he used to complain to Pulani about how expensive everything was.

但他常常向普拉尼抱怨所有东西都很贵。

And then one day, he just disappeared.

然后有一天，他就消失了。

And I got a call from his boss asking me, oh, where's your brother?

我接到他老板的电话，问我，哦，你兄弟在哪里？

I was like, I don't know.

我当时想，我不知道。

You should tell me.

你应该告诉我。

He works for you.

他为你工作。

And he was like, oh, he didn't show up to work for three days now.

他说，哦，他已经三天没有去上班了。

No call, no show, no nothing.

没有电话，没有出现，什么也没有。

So Pulani calls one of their sisters, who also lives on Kauai, and he says, do you know where our brother is?

于是普拉尼给他们的一位同样住在考艾岛的姐妹打电话，她说，你知道我们的兄弟在哪里吗？

She started to laugh.

她开始笑。

She said, he went back.

她说完，他就回去了。

I said, what do you mean he went back?

我说他回去是什么意思？

Yeah, he went back to Niihau.

是的，他回到了 Niihau。

He picked up his family and went back to Niihau.

他接了家人回到尼豪。

When I finally talked to him, he said he was just over it.

当我最终和他交谈时，他说他已经结束了。

To him, it was harder to pay taxes, buy a car, keep up with the registration, rent a house, pay for the electricity, the water, gas.

对他来说，缴税、买车、办理登记、租房、支付电费、水费、煤气费都更困难。

And not getting nowhere, living from paycheck to paycheck.

而且一事无成，靠薪水过活。

He said he was more happy back home living off the land, living each day for that day.

他说，他更高兴回到家乡，在这片土地上生活，每天都为那一天而活。

Because next day, it's a new day.

因为第二天，又是新的一天。

So he had a harder time abiding by the rules--

所以他更难遵守规则了——

Of modern life than to the rules of the island of Robinson.

现代生活比鲁宾逊岛的规则更重要。

He said he can put up with that.

他说他可以忍受。

And Pulani later told us his brother Iaone, he's back living on Kauai now.

普拉尼后来告诉我们他的兄弟伊奥内，他现在回到考艾岛生活了。

He broke one of the rules.

他违反了其中一项规则。

Pulani didn't say what it was, but Iaone was asked to leave Niihau, and he hopes that one day he'll be allowed back.

普拉尼没有透露具体情况，但伊奥恩被要求离开尼豪岛，他希望有一天他能被允许回来。

Sean Cole and Adia White.

肖恩·科尔和阿迪亚·怀特。

Coming up, the head of one of the biggest financial institutions on the planet, a homeless guy, and one of our own producers all get called in on the same day in front of the same judge and the same set of rules.

接下来，地球上最大的金融机构之一的负责人、一个无家可归的人以及我们自己的一位制片人都在同一天在同一个法官和同一套规则面前被传唤。

Who comes out on top?

谁能脱颖而出？

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

We have arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。

Act Two, A Dave in Court.

第二幕，法庭上的戴夫。

A little while ago, one of our producers, David Kestenbaum, broke one of the rules that we in our country have decided all to abide by.

不久前，我们的一位制片人大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆违反了我们国家决定所有人都要遵守的一项规则。

He made a left-hand turn by a sign that says no left-hand turns.

他在禁止左转的标志处左转。

As a result, he ended up spending the day in the courtroom of this one judge.

结果，他最终在这位法官的法庭上度过了一天。

This judge who applied the rules with a fastidious consistency that's sometimes lacking on privately-owned Hawaiian islands.

这位法官以严格的一致性来执行规则，这在私人拥有的夏威夷岛屿上有时是缺乏的。

We thought it might be nice to end our show today by seeing what that's like exactly.

我们认为最好通过看看到底是什么样子来结束今天的演出。

Here's David.

这是大卫。

If the Supreme Court is the highest court in the land, this is basically the lowest.

如果最高法院是该国最高的法院，那么这基本上是最低的法院。

It's a municipal court.

这是一个市级法院。

This one is for two towns in New Jersey.

这是新泽西州的两个城镇。

Still, the courtroom is an intimidating place.

尽管如此，法庭仍然是一个令人生畏的地方。

Wood paneling, wood seats, a giant official seal on the wall.

木镶板，木座椅，墙上有一个巨大的官方印章。

In front of that, the judge's bench, which is raised like this physical reminder of who is in charge.

前面是法官席，它像这样的身体提醒着谁负责。

There are a couple dozen of us here to have our cases heard.

我们有几十个人在这里审理我们的案件。

All rise for the honorable Clarence Barry-Austin.

全体起立，为尊敬的克拉伦斯·巴里·奥斯汀致敬。

Judge Clarence Barry-Austin walks in, black robe.

克拉伦斯·巴里·奥斯汀法官穿着黑袍走进来。

And if you're hoping to be home in an hour, it's not going to happen.

如果你希望一个小时内回家，那是不可能的。

Here's how he starts.

他是这样开始的。

Now, the information I'm about to communicate to you will take a few minutes to do so, perhaps more than a few minutes.

现在，我要向您传达的信息将需要几分钟的时间，也许不止几分钟。

I know the word few can mean more than three.

我知道“几个”这个词的意思可以是“三个以上”。

In this case, it means 22-- which is longer, by the way, than this entire story will be.

在本例中，它意味着 22——顺便说一句，这比整个故事还要长。

He gives this long list of rules and information and more rules.

他给出了这个长长的规则和信息清单以及更多规则。

I have to accept your guilty plea.

我必须接受你的认罪

I have to evaluate that plea to determine that it is an acceptable plea of court--

我必须评估该抗辩，以确定这是法庭可以接受的抗辩——

The judge wants people to know all this stuff for their own protection, but he has another reason, as well.

法官希望人们了解所有这些事情，以保护自己，但他还有另一个原因。

There is this much grander mission that he's on, though it doesn't come up until minute 20.

他正在执行一项更宏伟的任务，尽管直到第 20 分钟才出现。

And it's easy to miss.

而且很容易错过。

It is important to the court that you leave here fully understanding our procedures, our protocols, and the circumstances surrounding your particular case.

对于法院来说，重要的是您离开这里时要充分了解我们的程序、协议以及您的具体案件的情况。

Whether you are happy with the result is less important to you.

您对结果是否满意对您来说并不那么重要。

Really, frankly, it's less important to me--

说实话，这对我来说不太重要——

He wants people to leave the court understanding how our legal system works.

他希望人们离开法庭时了解我们的法律制度是如何运作的。

I talked to Barry-Austin about this.

我和巴里·奥斯汀谈过这件事。

Months later, we sat down to do an interview.

几个月后，我们坐下来进行采访。

He says it's part of their training for municipal courts because, for some people coming in, their little traffic case could be their only contact with the legal system ever-- the only time they're in an actual court having their case heard, with all that wood paneling around them.

他说，这是他们参加市法院培训的一部分，因为对于一些进来的人来说，他们的小交通案件可能是他们与法律系统唯一的接触——这是他们唯一一次在真正的法庭上审理他们的案件，周围都是木镶板。

That's one of the things that we talk about, the fact that it's important that they have a good experience, and a fair and an impartial experience here because this is where people will determine what they think of the judiciary as a whole.

这是我们谈论的事情之一，事实上，他们在这里拥有良好的经验、公平公正的经验很重要，因为这是人们决定他们对整个司法部门的看法的地方。

Everything.

一切。

Like up to the Supreme Court, like all the cases they read about in the newspaper.

就像最高法院一样，就像他们在报纸上读到的所有案件一样。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

They get a sense that judiciary functions in a fair and impartial way-- and a compassionate way.

他们感觉到司法机构以公平、公正和富有同情心的方式运作。

What makes this mission hard is that I and all the people around me here are on a mission of our own, and it is not the same mission.

这个使命之所以艰难，是因为我和我周围的所有人都在执行我们自己的使命，而且这不是同一个使命。

From what I can tell from our chitchat on the way in, a bunch of us are here because we are sure we should not have gotten the ticket.

从我们进来时的闲聊中可以看出，我们一群人来这里是因为我们确信我们不应该拿到票。

I fell into this category.

我就属于这一类。

We want the judge to waive the ticket, or at least reduce the fine, or something.

我们希望法官免除罚单，或者至少减少罚款，或者其他什么。

Put your left hand on the Bible.

将左手放在圣经上。

Right hand raised.

右手举起。

Case in point-- and by that I mean case in point.

例证——我的意思是例证。

This is a guy who we'll call Jeff.

这是一个我们称之为杰夫的人。

Jeff is upset about his ticket.

杰夫对他的罚单感到不安。

He parked his car on the street overnight, which is not allowed.

他把车停在街上过夜，这是不允许的。

There are signs for it all over town.

镇上到处都有它的标志。

But he is pleading not guilty.

但他不认罪。

So they have this little mini trial.

所以他们进行了这个小型试验。

He doesn't have a lawyer or anything.

他没有律师什么的。

It's just him.

就他一个人。

This procedure's a little different than you may be accustomed to.

此过程可能与您习惯的略有不同。

I know, Your Honor.

我知道，法官大人。

I've been coming here for about 14 years now.

我来这里已有大约 14 年了。

You've been coming here for about 14 years?

你来这里已经14年了？

Grew up in this town.

在这个小镇长大。

Clarence Barry-austin OK.

克拉伦斯·巴里·奥斯汀 好的。

You've been coming to court for 14 years?

你已经出庭14年了？

Well, you know, with school.

嗯，你知道，在学校。

I went to school at Seton Hall.

我在西顿霍尔学校上学。

I think Jeff is just trying to establish that he's a local.

我认为杰夫只是想证明他是当地人。

The kind of person who deserves a break.

是那种值得休息的人。

He launches into his defense, which is that he lives basically right on the border between two towns.

他开始为自己辩护，说他基本上就住在两个城镇的边界上。

In one town, it's illegal to park on the street overnight.

在一个城镇，在街上停车过夜是违法的。

But in the other town, it's legal.

但在另一个城镇，这是合法的。

He says there are no signs showing where the border is.

他说没有任何迹象表明边界在哪里。

Though when he lays all this out, the whole thing gets a little garbled because-- I saw this a few times when people go to court-- they sometimes try to use legal terms like they've seen on Law and Order or something.

尽管当他列出这一切时，整个事情变得有点混乱，因为——我在人们上法庭时见过几次——他们有时会尝试使用法律术语，就像他们在《法律与秩序》或其他东西上看到的那样。

--this one, and that's why I came here, Your Honor.

——这就是我来这里的原因，法官大人。

To actually show evidence that there's no actual proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, for an individual that goes in there, like myself-- I've been living there-- to know that that particular side of the street where the border is between two towns, to know exactly if he was parking in South Orange or in North.

要实际证明证据表明，除了合理怀疑之外，没有任何实际证据可以让一个像我这样走进那里的人——我一直住在那里——知道街道的那一侧是两个城镇之间的边界，确切地知道他是在南奥兰治还是在北奥兰治停车。

As I indicated in my opening statement, parking tickets are a little different.

正如我在开场白中指出的那样，停车罚单略有不同。

Judge Barry-Austin is very patient with him.

巴里-奥斯汀法官对他非常有耐心。

He told me people often come in just wanting to be heard, so he listens.

他告诉我，人们进来只是想表达自己的意见，所以他会倾听。

But also-- this is the mission, remember-- he wants the guy to know how our system works, how the law works.

而且——记住，这是使命——他希望这个人知道我们的系统是如何运作的，法律是如何运作的。

Let me just inform you that motor vehicle rules of the road don't require intent.

我只是告诉您，机动车道路规则不需要意图。

Criminal laws require you to intent to violate the law.

刑法要求您故意违法。

Motor vehicle laws don't require intent.

机动车法不要求意图。

So if you parked illegally-- even if you don't intend to park illegally, if you are, in fact, parked illegally, that's a violation.

因此，如果您非法停车——即使您无意非法停车，但如果您确实非法停车，那就属于违规行为。

Jeff plows ahead anyway.

不管怎样，杰夫仍在努力前进。

He enters 11 photos into evidence.

他将 11 张照片作为证据。

He runs through them one by one.

他一一浏览。

Photos of the street signs, and the lack of street signs.

街道标志的照片，以及缺乏街道标志的情况。

Close-ups of street signs.

街道标志的特写。

A photo of a fire hydrant, for some reason.

出于某种原因，一张消防栓的照片。

Of a car parked in the same spot he was parked in on a different night.

一辆汽车停在同一地点，而他在不同的夜晚停在同一地点。

That car didn't get a ticket.

那辆车没有拿到票。

The whole thing takes about 15 minutes.

整个过程大约需要15分钟。

And then the judge issues his ruling.

然后法官做出裁决。

Your defense really is not an approved defense.

你的辩护确实不是经过批准的辩护。

I'm satisfied that all the necessary proofs are in place for me and supports a finding of guilty of this particular offense.

我很满意所有必要的证据都已准备就绪，并支持我对这一特定罪行的定罪。

The fine for the offense, sir, is $60.

先生，这次违规行为的罚款是 60 美元。

Jeff went off to pay his fine, pretty clearly feeling like justice had not been done here.

杰夫去缴纳罚款，显然感觉正义没有在这里得到伸张。

How do you think he felt at the end of that?

你认为他最后有什么感受？

I'm sure he felt frustrated.

我确信他感到沮丧。

David Kestenbaum Didn't you have some discretion?

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆：你没有一点自由裁量权吗？

I mean, this guy, he's walking in there super frustrated.

我的意思是，这个人，他走在那里非常沮丧。

He's lived here his whole life.

他一生都住在这里。

There are no signs there.

那里没有任何迹象。

Could you have given him a break?

你能让他休息一下吗？

Oh, you could have?

哦，你可以有吗？

Clarence Barry-austin I could've.

克拉伦斯·巴里·奥斯汀 我可以。

Why didn't you?

你为什么不呢？

Clarence Barry-austin Because he violated the law.

克拉伦斯·巴里·奥斯汀 因为他违反了法律。

People go through stop signs and say, I didn't see the stop sign.

人们经过停车标志时会说，我没有看到停车标志。

What would make his situation different from anybody else who said, Judge, I didn't know?

他的处境与那些说“法官，我不知道”的人有何不同？

Barry-Austin was born in Guyana.

巴里·奥斯汀出生于圭亚那。

Neither of his parents went to college, but he told me he wanted to work with the law as long as he can remember.

他的父母都没有上过大学，但他告诉我，从他记事起，他就想从事法律工作。

He liked arguing things, sorting through the logic of things.

他喜欢争论事物，整理事物的逻辑。

He has faith in the idea of laws, that rules, words on a page, can be clearly applied to the real world.

他相信法律的理念，即规则，纸上的文字，可以清楚地应用于现实世界。

And yet, even here, with these little cases, you see how hard that can be-- like with this one man.

然而，即使在这里，通过这些小案例，你也会看到这有多么困难——就像这个人一样。

He'd gotten a ticket, I think, for being too far into the intersection when he stopped for a red light.

我想，他是因为在红灯停车时离十字路口太远而收到了罚单。

His English isn't so good.

他的英语不太好。

Yes, something I understand.

是的，我明白一些。

Clarence Barry-austin Now, is it a hearing problem or is it a language problem?

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀 现在，这是听力问题还是语言问题？

Do you understand English?

你懂英语吗？

No, no, no. No problem with hearing, no. It's OK.

不，不，不。听力没问题，不会。没关系。

You can hear OK?

你能听到好吗？

You hear everything I'm saying?

你听到我说的一切了吗？

Yes, OK.

是的，好的。

Clarence Barry-austin Do you understand everything I'm saying?

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀 你明白我说的一切吗？

Yes.

是的。

Understand something.

了解一些东西。

Clarence Barry-austin What language do you speak, sir?

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀 您说什么语言，先生？

Ukrainian, Russian, Polish.

乌克兰语、俄语、波兰语。

David Kestenbaum The guy just wants to plead guilty.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 这家伙只是想认罪。

But the judge, admirably, wants to make sure the man clearly understands what's happening.

但令人钦佩的是，法官希望确保该男子清楚地了解正在发生的事情。

So he tries to get an interpreter.

所以他试图找一名翻译。

The courts are set up to do this, though the mechanism seems a little low-tech.

法院就是为了做到这一点而设立的，尽管该机制似乎技术含量较低。

The judge calls up an interpreter service, basically on a speakerphone in the court.

法官基本上通过法庭的免提电话呼叫翻译服务。

Welcome to LanguageLine Solutions.

欢迎来到 LanguageLine 解决方案。

For Spanish, press 1.

对于西班牙语，请按 1。

For other, press 2.

对于其他，请按 2。

David Kestenbaum The judge tells them he needs a Polish interpreter.

David Kestenbaum 法官告诉他们他需要一名波兰语翻译。

And after a bit, a woman comes on who speaks Polish.

过了一会儿，一位会说波兰语的女士走了过来。

The judge has to swear her in.

法官必须让她宣誓就职。

Do you solemnly swear-- David Kestenbaum This all takes time.

你庄严地发誓吗——David Kestenbaum 这一切都需要时间。

Everyone in court just has to wait.

法庭上的每个人都必须等待。

Then the judge starts over with the man.

然后法官重新开始审理该男子。

The woman on the phone translates for the judge.

电话里的女士为法官翻译。

[SPEAKING POLISH] Man It's not Polish language.

[说波兰语] 伙计，这不是波兰语。

Didn't you say that you would prefer to speak in Polish?

你不是说你更喜欢用波兰语说话吗？

Ukrainian.

乌克兰。

Ukrainian, Russian, no problem.

乌克兰语、俄语，没问题。

I thought you said Polish, no problem.

我以为你说的是​​波兰语，没问题。

Didn't you say that?

你不是这么说的吗？

The judge has to do the whole thing again.

法官必须重新做一遍整个事情。

Find a Ukrainian interpreter.

寻找乌克兰语翻译。

[SPEAKING UKRAINIAN] David Kestenbaum This went on for over a half an hour.

[乌克兰语] David Kestenbaum 这持续了半个多小时。

Even with the interpreter, the judge isn't convinced the man totally understands, so he schedules the trial for another day.

即使有翻译，法官也不相信该男子完全理解，因此他将审判安排在另一天。

All this to try to resolve a minor traffic violation.

所有这些都是为了解决一起轻微的交通违规问题。

I found it grueling, and also impressive.

我觉得这很辛苦，但也令人印象深刻。

Most of the cases didn't take that long.

大多数案件并没有花那么长时间。

The judge cranked through 27 different defendants in a little over five hours.

法官在五个多小时内审阅了 27 名不同的被告。

There was a guy who'd been caught with a small amount of marijuana.

有一个人因携带少量大麻而被捕。

And weirdly, a case against the CEO of JP Morgan Chase, the largest bank in America.

奇怪的是，这是针对美国最大银行摩根大通首席执行官的案件。

I thought maybe he'd blown a stop sign or something, but it was about a property that hadn't been kept up.

我以为他可能吹坏了停车标志或其他什么东西，但这是关于一个没有得到维护的财产的。

And it turned out neither he nor the bank had any connection to the building, so it got dismissed.

事实证明，他和银行都与这座大楼没有任何联系，所以它被驳回了。

And then there was one woman who'd been in a minor accident.

还有一位女士遭遇了一场小事故。

She testified that the other car had quote, "appeared out of nowhere," which I'm pretty sure violates the law-- of physics.

她作证说，另一辆车有一句话“突然出现”，我很确定这违反了物理定律。

Some people did seem OK with how things went.

有些人似乎确实对事情的进展感到满意。

One man, when his case was over, told the judge to have a blessed day.

一名男子的案件结束后，向法官祝愿他有美好的一天。

Another man who had pulled into a handicapped spot apologized.

另一名把车停在残疾人停车位的男子也道歉了。

The most fascinating case of the day, though, the one where you saw just how hard it could sometimes be to apply the law, was this one.

然而，今天最令人着迷的案例是这个案例，您可以看到应用法律有时是多么困难。

Just speak up.

只要说出来。

Say who you are, name and address.

说出您是谁、姓名和地址。

The guy says his name.

那家伙说出了他的名字。

Then, for address--

那么，地址——

I don't have an address.

我没有地址。

Clarence Barry-austin By that, are you asserting that you're homeless?

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀：这么说来，你是在断言自己无家可归吗？

Yes, sir.

是的，先生。

David Kestenbaum The man's wearing a long-sleeved button-up shirt that is too big and untucked.

David Kestenbaum 这个男人穿着一件长袖纽扣衬衫，衬衫太大而且没有塞进裤腰。

He's standing with his legs really far apart, as if maybe he'd worked out that that was the most stable way to stand to keep from falling over.

他双腿分开地站着，好像他已经发现这是防止摔倒的最稳定的站立方式。

Judge Barry-Austin goes through the papers.

巴里·奥斯汀法官审阅文件。

He sees that the man is in for basically drinking in public.

他认为该男子基本上是因为在公共场合喝酒而受到处罚。

It's an open container violation.

这是一种开放容器违规行为。

The ticket was issued years ago and never paid.

这张票是几年前发出的，但从未付款。

Which has gone back to 2013.

这还要追溯到2013年。

Homeless Man Yes.

无家可归的人 是的。

It took me a little while to get here.

我花了一点时间才到达这里。

Sorry.

对不起。

I don't know how to take that, but I hope you don't mean that to be funny.

我不知道该怎么接受，但我希望你不是开玩笑。

The prosecutor has recommended that the whole thing be dismissed.

检察官建议驳回整个事件。

But Barry-Austin is not on board.

但巴里·奥斯汀并不在其中。

He looks down at the ticket.

他低头看着票。

The court had tried to get the man to appear many times.

法庭曾多次试图让该男子出庭。

I mean, there are multiple times.

我的意思是，有很多次。

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 that I can quickly count.

1、2、3、4、5、6、7我可以很快数出来。

The court has expended an enormous amount of time, effort, and expense in just trying to get him into court.

法院花费了大量的时间、精力和费用来试图将他送上法庭。

I'm willing to dismiss the original ticket, he says, but shouldn't there be some penalty for failing to appear in court so many times?

他说，我愿意驳回原来的罚单，但多次缺席法庭不应该受到一些处罚吗？

At this point, the homeless man, unwisely, speaks up.

这时，无家可归的人不明智地开口了。

I've been homeless for approximately eight years, sir.

先生，我已经无家可归大约八年了。

OK.

好的。

But at the same time, you did get the ticket, did you not?

但与此同时，你确实拿到了票，不是吗？

I got the ticket and I lost it or threw it away.

我拿到了票，但我把它弄丢了或者扔掉了。

I don't know what I did with it.

我不知道我用它做了什么。

[SCOFFS] You see what I'm-- you lost it or you threw it away?

[嘲笑]你知道我是什么——你把它弄丢了还是把它扔掉了？

You know, it's just a total disregard for the process.

你知道，这完全无视流程。

That's what's bothering me, OK?

这就是让我烦恼的事情，好吗？

I mean, being homeless doesn't prevent you from at least abiding by the process of the court.

我的意思是，无家可归并不妨碍你至少遵守法庭的程序。

Of course, the judge is all about applying the process of the court.

当然，法官是在应用法院的程序。

A woman steps up to testify on the homeless man's behalf.

一名妇女挺身而出，为无家可归男子作证。

She says she knows him because he comes to her food pantry.

她说她认识他，因为他来到她的食品储藏室。

He volunteers there, too.

他也在那里做志愿者。

She says he comes in three days a week, four hours a day.

她说他每周来三天，每天四个小时。

It's a lot of work, and he needs medical care.

工作量很大，而且他需要医疗护理。

He has seizures.

他有癫痫发作。

I've witnessed them.

我亲眼目睹了他们。

He's going to the hospital.

他要去医院。

I take him home from the hospital.

我带他从医院回家。

She says she's been trying to help get him on Medicaid, but someone told her he can't be on Medicaid because of this outstanding ticket.

她说她一直在努力帮助他享受医疗补助，但有人告诉她，由于这张未付的罚单，他不能享受医疗补助。

I later learned that's probably not correct.

后来我才知道这可能是不正确的。

But that's why she brought him in.

但这就是她带他进来的原因。

So we're trying to go through all the processes, and it's taking a long time.

所以我们正在尝试完成所有流程，这需要很长时间。

So if I'm understanding you correct, it wasn't even at his initiative that he's here today?

如果我没理解错的话，他今天来这里也不是他主动的？

It's at your initiative?

是你主动的吗？

Because he forgot all about it.

因为他把这一切都忘记了。

I'm sure he did.

我确信他做到了。

And he shouldn't have.

他不应该这样做。

This is where the mission gets tough.

这就是任务变得艰难的地方。

Judge Barry-Austin goes back and forth about what to do, just thinking aloud.

巴里-奥斯汀法官反复思考该做什么，只是大声思考。

I don't see how I can let this go, he says.

“我不知道如何才能放手，”他说。

He can't just not show up for court so many times and there not be any consequence.

他不能多次不出庭而没有任何后果。

On the other hand, he recognizes the guy will have a hard time paying a penalty.

另一方面，他认识到这个人将很难支付罚款。

There will probably be additional cost to the court to try to collect it.

法院可能会收取额外费用。

But in the end, he decides to issue a $50 fine for failing to appear.

但最终，他决定因缺席而处以 50 美元的罚款。

And then, almost as an afterthought, he asks this.

然后，几乎是事后才想到的，他问了这个问题。

Does he get paid at all for his work at the--

他在——的工作有得到报酬吗？

They're all volunteers.

他们都是志愿者。

We'll pay court costs, whatever it is, sir.

先生，无论费用如何，我们都会支付法庭费用。

The program will take care of that for him?

该程序会帮他处理这件事吗？

We'll take care of it, absolutely, because he needs medical help.

我们绝对会处理的，因为他需要医疗帮助。

All right.

好的。

OK.

好的。

Um...

嗯...

David Kestenbaum Barry-Austin was just trying to apply the law-- the law that he believes in.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆·巴里·奥斯汀只是想应用法律——他所信仰的法律。

And yet, he was in a bind.

然而，他却陷入了困境。

He decided to issue this fine to punish a guy for not showing up in court, but now the guy wasn't even going to end up paying the fine because now it's going to come out of the budget of a food pantry.

他决定开出这笔罚款来惩罚一个没有出庭的人，但现在这个人甚至不会最终支付罚款，因为现在这笔罚款将来自食品储藏室的预算。

What to do?

该怎么办？

When I interviewed Barry-Austin about this day in court, it was a couple months after the fact.

当我在法庭上采访巴里·奥斯汀时，已经是几个月后的事了。

He was curious how it came out, too.

他也很好奇这是怎么出来的。

What do you think you did?

你认为你做了什么？

Clarence Barry-austin What would I have done?

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀 我会怎么做？

I don't want to venture a guess.

我不想冒险猜测。

Tell me how it worked out.

告诉我结果如何。

Here, I'll play it for you.

在这里，我给你演奏一下。

Clarence Barry-austin All right.

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀 好吧。

You know what?

你知道吗？

Since I don't want to impose that cost upon the program.

因为我不想把这个成本强加给程序。

I don't want to impose it.

我不想强加它。

I'm going to suspend it.

我要暂停它。

He lets it go.

他放手了。

No penalty.

没有处罚。

Barry-Austin told me this is one thing that thwarts him occasionally-- human kindness.

巴里·奥斯汀告诉我，这是偶尔会阻碍他的一件事——人类的善良。

The usual way it happens is that someone, an adult, will be assessed a fine, and then the person will look to the back of the courtroom and an older parent or grandparent will come forward to pay it.

通常发生的方式是，某人，一个成年人，将被处以罚款，然后这个人会看着法庭后面，年长的父母或祖父母会上前支付罚款。

Why are you paying?

你为什么付钱？

It's his.

这是他的。

I mean, he's not a child.

我的意思是，他不是个孩子。

He's a grown person.

他是一个成年人了。

Why are you-- I can't tell you not to pay.

你为什么——我不能告诉你不要付钱。

And I won't tell you not to pay.

我不会告诉你不要付钱。

But it just irritates me.

但这只是激怒了我。

I always tell my kids, I will never let you fall and crash and burn.

我总是告诉我的孩子们，我永远不会让你们跌倒、崩溃和烧伤。

I will always be that last resort that you have to.

我永远是你必须的最后手段。

But you have to learn lessons from the things that you do.

但你必须从你所做的事情中吸取教训。

And the rules are the rules.

规则就是规则。

The rules are the rules.

规则就是规则。

I have just one more case for you.

我还有一个案例要给你。

That's me.

这就是我。

Before I play you the tape-- which is excruciating for me to listen to now-- remember, I was one of the people who was convinced they had been wronged.

在我给你播放这盘磁带之前——现在听这盘磁带对我来说太痛苦了——请记住，我是那些确信自己被冤枉的人之一。

I'd made the left turn, sure, into a parking space.

当然，我左转进入了一个停车位。

But I had no idea it was illegal.

但我不知道这是违法的。

There is a sign, but honestly, you can't see it until after you've already made the turn.

有一个标志，但老实说，直到转弯后你才能看到它。

And given that, the penalty just seemed unfair.

鉴于此，处罚似乎不公平。

$85 plus three points on your license.

85 美元，加上驾照上的 3 分。

After it happened, I would pass by that spot every day on my way to work, and every day I would be filled with outrage that I'd gotten the ticket.

事情发生后，我每天上班的路上都会经过那个地方，每天我都会为自己收到罚单而愤愤不平。

I'd been compulsively running through what I would say in court in my head for weeks.

几个星期以来，我一直在脑海中不断地回想我在法庭上要说的话。

So that day, I dressed up.

于是那天，我盛装打扮。

I wore a tie.

我打着领带。

I had my manila envelope with photos in it, and data.

我的马尼拉信封里有照片和数据。

I'd measured the distance from where I'd made the turn to where the sign is.

我测量了从转弯处到标志所在处的距离。

I was nervous to be there in court, but I also felt like, I'm a rule-follower.

出庭时我很紧张，但我也觉得，我是一个规则遵守者。

If there's a sign that says no left turns, I don't make a left turn.

如果有一个标志说禁止左转，我就不会左转。

So I felt like, I'm not against these people, the judge and the prosecutor.

所以我觉得，我并不反对这些人、法官和检察官。

There'd just been some sort of mistake.

只是出了某种错误。

We were going to sort it out.

我们本来打算解决这个问题。

I see now how stupid that was.

我现在明白那是多么愚蠢了。

When I arrived in court, I'd waited in line to see the prosecutor, who'd looked at my driving record, which was clean, and he'd offered me a plea bargain.

当我到达法庭时，我排队等候见检察官，他查看了我的驾驶记录，该记录是干净的，并且他向我提出了认罪交易。

I'd plead guilty to a lesser charge-- obstructing the flow of traffic, which did not come with any points-- and he said I could explain to the judge about the signs.

我愿意承认一项较轻的罪名——阻碍交通，这一罪名不会扣分——他说我可以向法官解释这些标志。

Maybe he would reduce the fine.

也许他会减少罚款。

That seemed great.

那看起来很棒。

It seemed like the way the system was supposed to work.

这似乎是系统应该运作的方式。

I knew it.

我就知道。

These were my people.

这些是我的人。

We all want the same thing.

我们都想要同样的东西。

Here's what happened when I got before Judge Barry-Austin.

以下是我到巴里-奥斯汀法官面前时发生的事情。

Good afternoon, sir.

下午好，先生。

Your name, your address, please.

请您的姓名、地址。

David Kestenbaum.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

It started according to plan.

事情按照计划开始了。

You also were charged with making a left turn into a parking space on Sloane Street?

你还被指控左转进入斯隆街的停车位？

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Clarence Barry-austin Prosecutor's moving to amend that to a violation of Title 39:4-67.

克拉伦斯·巴里·奥斯汀检察官提出修改该规定，认为其违反了标题 39:4-67。

Again, obstruction of traffic.

再次，阻碍交通。

You understand the amendment that's being proposed?

您了解正在提议的修正案吗？

I do.

我愿意。

Clarence Barry-austin And you're pleading guilty to obstructing traffic through the maneuver of making a left turn into the parking space?

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀：你承认左转进入停车位阻碍交通的罪名吗？

[INAUDIBLE] If I had been paying more attention to Judge Barry-Austin's 22-minute introductory speech, I think I might have avoided what came next.

[听不清] 如果我更多地关注巴里-奥斯汀法官 22 分钟的介绍性演讲，我想我可能会避免接下来发生的事情。

Remember this?

还记得这个吗？

I have to accept your guilty plea.

我必须接受你的认罪

I have to evaluate that plea to determine that it is an acceptable plea according to the standards and the guidelines that I have to follow.

我必须根据我必须遵循的标准和准则评估该抗辩，以确定这是可接受的抗辩。

I was not paying attention at all.

我根本没有注意。

When I stood in front of the judge, he told me he had to establish a factual basis for my plea.

当我站在法官面前时，他告诉我他必须为我的抗辩建立事实基础。

I was pleading guilty to obstructing the flow of traffic, so he asked, did I obstruct the flow of traffic by making that left-hand turn?

我承认妨碍交通，他就问，我左转是否妨碍交通？

If I had just answered yes, I would have been fine.

如果我当时回答“是”，那就没问题了。

But I didn't remember any cars.

但我不记得有什么车。

And I was still hoping that, when he understood my situation, he'd give me a break on the fine.

我仍然希望，当他了解我的处境时，他能让我免于罚款。

So here's what I said when he asked, were you obstructing the flow of traffic?

所以当他问你是否妨碍交通时我是这么说的？

There were no other cars around, but I understand it would impede the flow.

周围没有其他汽车，但我知道这会阻碍交通。

Yes.

是的。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

Clarence Barry-austin It doesn't work like that.

克拉伦斯·巴里-奥斯汀：事情不是这样的。

I need a factual basis.

我需要一个事实依据。

If there was no other vehicles then--

如果没有其他车辆的话——

No, no, you-- you can't acknowledge to me on the record that there were no other vehicles and then say that you impeded traffic.

不，不，你——你不能在记录中向我承认没有其他车辆，然后又说你妨碍了交通。

I can't accept that.

我不能接受这一点。

Can I give a fuller explanation?

我可以给出更全面的解释吗？

God, who talks like that?

天哪，谁这么说话？

Me, I guess.

我，我猜。

I'd started doing that thing I'd seen other people do.

我开始做我看到其他人做过的事情。

I tried to use legal language I had no business using.

我尝试使用与我无关的法律语言。

I mean, I'm not going to allow to just totally disavow what you've already said.

我的意思是，我不会允许完全否认你已经说过的话。

If you want to explain it to me in a fashion that would bring you within the violation, I'll listen to that.

如果你想以一种让你陷入违规的方式向我解释，我会听的。

What I don't want you to tell me--

我不想让你告诉我的事——

I'm going to tell you this because I just want to make sure we're understanding each other.

我之所以告诉你这些，是因为我只是想确保我们能够互相理解。

All right.

好的。

Go ahead.

前进。

David Kestenbaum I was coming off the circle.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum） 我即将脱离这个圈子。

I went into the parking area.

我走进停车场。

I made a left-hand turn.

我向左转。

To my recollection, I do not recall any traffic coming in the opposite direction.

根据我的记忆，我不记得有任何相反方向的交通。

So you don't recall that, in fact, you impeded the flow of traffic in either direction?

那么您不记得事实上您阻碍了任一方向的交通流吗？

If impede the flow of traffic means there has to be a car present there at the time, then no.

如果阻碍交通流量意味着当时必须有一辆车在那里，那么就不会。

OK, then I can't accept this as a-- there is no factual basis.

好吧，那么我不能接受这是没有事实依据的。

I-- I-- I-- I apologize.

我--我--我--我道歉。

I am a person who is used to speaking in public.

我是一个习惯在公共场合讲话的人。

It's, like, my job.

这就像我的工作。

But I could barely think straight.

但我几乎无法正常思考。

In my head, this went on forever, though apparently it was 3 minutes and 45 seconds, according to the tape.

在我的脑海里，这一切持续了很久，尽管根据录像带，时间显然只有 3 分 45 秒。

In the end, he refused to accept the plea bargain.

最终，他拒绝接受辩诉交易。

You know how nervous I was coming into court that day?

你知道那天我上法庭有多紧张吗？

Well, now I do.

好吧，现在我知道了。

David Kestenbaum It felt strange, but we talked about my case a little.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆（David Kestenbaum） 感觉很奇怪，但我们稍微讨论了一下我的案例。

I have to hope that you'll be satisfied with the outcome, but--

我希望你会对结果感到满意，但是——

I wasn't satis-- I wasn't satisfied with the outcome.

我不满意——我对结果不满意。

That's not my driving motivation.

这不是我的驾驶动机。

It's more that the process work, and that you're satisfied that the process worked.

更重要的是流程有效，并且您对流程有效感到满意。

Even if you are dissatisfied with the outcome, that you're satisfied that the process worked.

即使您对结果不满意，但您对过程的成功感到满意。

I certainly admired your desire to apply the law in a clear way.

我当然钦佩您以明确的方式适用法律的愿望。

Well, that's the job.

嗯，这就是工作。

David Kestenbaum I told him, genuinely, I thought he had succeeded in his mission with me.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆 我真诚地告诉他，我认为他和我一起成功地完成了他的使命。

It seemed fair.

这看起来很公平。

I'd learned something.

我学到了一些东西。

He said, OK.

他说，好吧。

One victory for the day.

当天取得一场胜利。

David Kestenbaum.

大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆。

He's one of the producers of our show.

他是我们节目的制作人之一。

[MUSIC - NAS FEAT.

[音乐 - NAS 壮举。

LAURYN HILL, "IF I RULED THE WORLD (IMAGINE THAT)"]

劳伦·希尔，“如果我统治世界（想象一下）”]

Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Susan Burton.

图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Susan Burton 制作。

Other staff, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivas, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Karen Duffin, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Seth Lind, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Christopher Swetala, Robyn Semien, Lilly Sullivan, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, and Diane Wu.

其他工作人员包括 Zoe Chace、Dana Chivas、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Karen Duffin、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Seth Lind、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Christopher Swetala、Robyn Semien、Lilly Sullivan、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike 和 Diane Wu。

Music help today from Damien Graef.

今天达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 提供音乐帮助。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。

You know, before going into public radio, he trained for years in the space program as an astronaut but decided not to go on his mission to the International Space Station when he learned about everything he was going to have to leave behind.

你知道，在进入公共广播电台之前，他作为一名宇航员在太空计划中接受了多年的训练，但当他了解到自己将不得不留下的一切时，他决定不再继续前往国际空间站的任务。

Like not having any snacks, not having any LEGOs, not having anything fun.

就像没有零食、没有乐高积木、没有任何乐趣一样。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。