61: Fiasco! (1997) - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #61 | October 20, 2006 61: Fiasco!
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 61 集 | 2006 年 10 月 20 日 61：惨败！
(1997) Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
(1997) 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Act One: Opening Night Boy From PRI, Public Radio International--
第一幕：开幕之夜 来自 PRI、国际公共广播电台的男孩——
From PRI, Public Radio-- Woman Public Radio--
来自 PRI、公共广播电台——女子公共广播电台——
--Radio International.
——国际广播电台。
Woman One more time.
女人 再一次。
What could be more American than the person who sees something they've never done before, dreams they could do it, goes after that dream?
还有什么比那些看到自己以前从未做过的事情、梦想自己能做到并追求梦想的人更美国人的呢？
Well, let's begin today with a woman who dreams of directing a play in the small town where she lives, a college town, somewhere below the Mason-Dixon line in the hills of Appalachia, a town which will remain, for our purposes today, unnamed.
好吧，今天让我们从一位梦想在她居住的小镇导演一部戏剧的女人开始，那是一座大学城，位于阿巴拉契亚山区梅森-迪克森线以下的某个地方，为了我们今天的目的，这个小镇将保持未命名。
I don't think she had ever directed.
我不认为她曾经导演过。
And she claimed to have acted.
她声称已经采取行动。
And it was never really quite clear just what her credentials were.
她的资历到底是什么，从来都不是很清楚。
But she had managed to convince the local theater department of this college that she should direct a production of Peter Pan .
但她成功说服了该学院当地的戏剧系，让她执导一部《彼得潘》。
When he was in the 10th grade in 1973, Jack Hitt saw her production.
1973 年，当杰克·希特 (Jack Hitt) 读十年级时，他观看了她的作品。
And like everybody else in town, he heard about it for weeks beforehand.
和镇上的其他人一样，他提前几周就听说了这件事。
Slowly but surely, you began to hear sort of rumors about this production.
慢慢地，但可以肯定的是，你开始听到有关这部作品的一些谣言。
For example, I know that they had spent a lot of money renting these flying apparatuses out of New York.
例如，我知道他们花了很多钱从纽约租用这些飞行器。
And apparently, there's, like, one company and a handful of these apparatuses.
显然，有一家公司和一些这样的设备。
And so to get them was a major coup.
因此，获得它们是一项重大举措。
This is a story not just of a mediocre play or a terrible play.
这不仅仅是一部平庸的戏剧或一部糟糕的戏剧的故事。
When it comes right down to it, it's not even a story about a play.
归根结底，这甚至不是一个关于戏剧的故事。
This is a story about a fiasco and about what makes a fiasco.
这是一个关于惨败以及导致惨败的原因的故事。
And one ingredient of many fiascos is that great, massive, heart-wrenching chaos and failure are more likely to occur when great ambition has come into play, when plans are big, expectations great, hopes at their highest.
许多惨败的一个因素是，当雄心勃勃、计划宏大、期望很高、希望达到最高时，更可能发生巨大的、大规模的、令人心痛的混乱和失败。
And what you have to understand is that everybody in this sort of community understood that there was certainly a sort of air of everyone reaching beyond their own grasp.
你必须明白的是，在这样的社区中，每个人都明白，每个人都有一种超出自己掌控范围的氛围。
Every actor was sort of in a role that was just a little too big for them.
每个演员所扮演的角色对他们来说都有点太大了。
Every aspect of the set and the crew-- and rumors had cooked around.
片场和工作人员的方方面面——以及谣言四起。
There was this huge crew.
有这么庞大的工作人员。
There were lots of things being painted, and--
有很多东西正在被画，而且——
See, but this, in fact, is one of the criteria for greatness, is that everyone is just about to reach just beyond their grasp, because that is when greatness can occur.
你看，这实际上是伟大的标准之一，就是每个人都即将达到他们力所能及的程度，因为那时伟大就会发生。
That's right.
这是正确的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And maybe greatness could have occurred.
也许伟大的事情就会发生。
Well, today on our program, what happens when greatness does not occur.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，当伟大没有发生时会发生什么。
What happens, in fact, when fumble leads to error, leads to mishap, and before you know it, you have left the realm of ordinary mistake and chaos, and you have entered into the more ethereal, specialized realm of fiasco.
事实上，当失误导致错误、导致不幸时，在你不知不觉中，你已经离开了普通错误和混乱的领域，进入了更空灵、更专业的惨败领域。
Today's show, Fiascoes, a philosophical inquiry-- perhaps the first ever, as far as we know-- into what makes a fiasco, what takes our ordinary lives that extra distance into fiasco.
今天的节目《惨败》是一场哲学探究——据我们所知，这也许是有史以来第一次——探究是什么造成了惨败，是什么让我们的日常生活陷入了惨败。
Well, from WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life .
嗯，来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program in four acts.
今天的节目共四幕。
Act One, Opening Night.
第一幕，开幕之夜。
Act Two, a fiasco involving a village, marauding Visigoths, a 1,900-pound brass cauldron, and some oil.
第二幕，一场惨败，涉及一个村庄、劫掠的西哥特人、一个 1,900 磅重的黄铜大锅和一些石油。
Don't even ask.
连问都别问。
Act Three, Car Wars, the true story of how putting NPR's show Car Talk on the air in Wisconsin led not just to hundreds of angry letters from listeners, not just to a protest rally, not just to a monthly newsletter devoted to the scandal, but eventually, a state audit and state hearings by the legislature.
第三幕《汽车大战》讲述了美国国家公共广播电台 (NPR) 的节目《汽车谈话》(Car Talk) 在威斯康星州播出的真实故事，不仅引发了数百封来自听众的愤怒来信，不仅引发了抗议集会，不仅引发了专门报道丑闻的每月通讯，而且最终引发了立法机构的州审计和州听证会。
Act Four, Fiascoes as a Force for Good in this World.
第四幕，惨败是这个世界的正义力量。
We begin our show with this true fable of Peter Pan in Act One, Opening Night.
我们以第一幕开幕之夜中彼得潘的真实寓言开始我们的演出。
Opening night comes.
开幕之夜来临。
And almost everybody in the area, in the 10-mile radius of this theater, knows somebody in this production.
剧院方圆 10 英里范围内的几乎每个人都认识这部作品中的某个人。
So the place is pretty much packed.
所以这个地方几乎挤满了人。
And I don't know if you remember the opening moment of Peter Pan, but it's the three little kids, sleeping in their bed.
我不知道你是否还记得彼得·潘的开场时刻，但那是三个小孩子，睡在他们的床上。
And Peter Pan comes flying in the window.
彼得潘从窗户飞了进来。
And in this particular production, there's a big bed with all the three kids in it.
在这部特别的作品中，有一张大床，三个孩子都在上面。
And off to the left, I remember, is a big, huge wardrobe.
我记得左边有一个很大很大的衣柜。
And there's a large window there and a little bureau.
那里有一扇大窗户和一个小衣柜。
And Peter Pan comes in and has the little speech where he says, "Anybody can fly.
彼得·潘进来发表了简短的演讲，他说：“任何人都会飞。
Why, with just a little magic dust, one can fly." And Peter Pan sprinkles this magic dust in the air.
为什么，只要一点点魔尘，就能飞起来。”彼得潘将这种神奇的灰尘撒在空气中。
And sure enough, the kids suddenly just lurch into the air.
果然，孩子们突然跌倒在空中。
And it becomes clear right away that the people that they've hired to run these flying apparatuses really aren't quite clear on how they actually work.
很明显，他们雇佣来运行这些飞行器的人实际上并不太清楚它们实际上是如何工作的。
So instead of the kids sailing gracefully to and fro, they sort of hang in the air like puppets, just dangling there and getting jerked up an inch or two or back and forth.
因此，孩子们不再优雅地来回航行，而是像木偶一样悬挂在空中，只是悬在那里，被猛拉一两英寸或来回。
And they--
而他们——
And then, sometimes, they're just stationary, just--
然后，有时，它们只是静止不动，只是——
Yeah, just hanging there like a spider.
是的，就像蜘蛛一样挂在那里。
And then, several of them start to circumscribe these circles in the air, where it's clear that the people running the machines have just set them off on these kind of oval courses that spiral farther and farther out.
然后，其中一些开始在空中划出这些圆圈，很明显，操作机器的人刚刚将它们引向了这种椭圆形的路线，并越来越远。
And if you're sitting in the audience, there was clearly a sense of fear on the faces of these people.
而如果你坐在观众席上，这些人的脸上显然都流露出恐惧的感觉。
Of the actors.
演员们。
Jack Hitt The actors.
杰克·希特 演员。
The actors, actually, you could sense their lack of confidence, shall we say, in the people running the machines in the back.
事实上，你可以从后面操作机器的人身上感觉到他们缺乏信心。
So they--
所以他们——
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
And the audience reaction to this point is just-- are they laughing?
观众对此的反应只是——他们在笑吗？
No one is laughing.
没有人在笑。
One of the great things about audiences, especially in a live theater production, is that they're very forgiving.
观众的一大优点，尤其是在现场戏剧制作中，就是他们非常宽容。
They want the show to work.
他们希望节目能够成功。
And so everyone is sort of gripping their chair a little tightly.
所以每个人都有点紧紧地握住他们的椅子。
We feel for them.
我们同情他们。
They're up there.
他们在上面。
They're embarrassing themselves for us.
他们在为我们丢脸。
We are become them.
我们成为了他们。
Jack Hitt And so the audience, I think, was very forgiving and very understanding of this moment.
杰克·希特 所以我认为观众对这一刻非常宽容和理解。
But there was one moment in this first opening scene that kind of put the audience on notice.
但在第一个开场场景中，有一个时刻引起了观众的注意。
And that's when, as the kids are jerking up and down and swinging back and forth and sort of going around these ovals, at one point, the littlest one, the little boy, is being flung around a little too hard.
就在那时，当孩子们上下猛烈地上下晃动、前后摇摆、绕着这些椭圆形转圈时，在某一时刻，最小的那个小男孩被猛烈地抛来抛去。
Well, he has the least mass to resist whatever the machinery is doing to him.
好吧，他的质量最小，无法抵抗机器对他所做的任何事情。
And so he's flying around in this circle.
于是他就在这个圈子里飞来飞去。
And the audience sort of sees this coming.
观众似乎已经预见到了这一点。
And there's a real sense of pain and gripping of the chair and white knuckle-ness as the kid suddenly does just an enormous splat into the wardrobe.
当孩子突然猛地一摔进衣柜时，椅子就会被抓住，指关节发白，真是一种痛苦的感觉。
And it's clear that he's hurt.
很明显他受伤了。
And he comes off of it a little dazed.
结束后他有点茫然。
And then, of course, he's jerked up in the air a little bit, and often, a little too high, so that he's suddenly in the workings.
然后，当然，他会在空中猛烈地抬起一点，而且常常有点太高，这样他就会突然开始工作。
He's sort of left the stage itself.
他已经离开了舞台。
He's now up there with the lights.
他现在就在灯火通明的地方。
And then all of a sudden, he's just sort of-- suddenly, he would just plummet back down to the stage and be caught up just before he hit the floor.
然后突然间，他会突然坠落到舞台上，然后在落地之前被抓住。
And it was hard to watch, because, as you can tell, it's an incredibly funny moment.
这很难看，因为，正如你所知，这是一个非常有趣的时刻。
But like I said, the audience was still in this very forgiving mode.
但就像我说的，观众仍然处于这种非常宽容的模式。
And no one said a word.
没有人说一句话。
We just all sat there, holding our breath.
我们都坐在那里，屏住呼吸。
And there's that weird tension of being in the audience, thinking, oh.
坐在观众席上有一种奇怪的紧张感，心想，哦。
Oh my goodness.
哦，我的天啊。
They have gotten off to a very bad start.
他们的开局非常糟糕。
Oh, this is not good.
哦，这可不好。
And we feel for them.
我们对他们感同身受。
May I just interrupt for just a moment, just to say, now, at this point-- because after all, we are not just joined here together on the radio, you and I, today, to laugh at the foibles of the unfortunate.
请允许我打断一下，只是想说，现在，在这一点上——因为毕竟，我们今天不仅仅是在广播中聚集在一起，你和我，嘲笑不幸者的缺点。
No, no. We're here to enumerate the qualities of a fiasco.
不，不。我们来这里是为了列举一场惨败的品质。
At this point, we are not yet in the territory of fiasco.
目前，我们还没有陷入惨败的境地。
No. No, because, like I say, audiences are forgiving.
不，不，因为正如我所说，观众是宽容的。
One or two mistakes, even big ones like this, they're going to let that ride.
一两个错误，即使是像这样的大错误，他们也会放任不管。
Yes, they are.
是的，他们是。
Jack Hitt We did.
杰克·希特 我们做到了。
We did.
我们做到了。
We were very good.
我们都很好。
So we are not yet at fiasco.
所以我们还没有遭遇惨败。
We are at a sort of normal level of mishap.
我们正处于一种正常的事故水平。
Right.
正确的。
What happens immediately after this, they disappear to Never Never Land.
紧接着发生的事情是，他们消失到梦幻岛。
And if you remember, the stage goes dark.
如果你还记得的话，舞台就黑了。
And then, when the lights come up, there's Captain Hook.
然后，当灯光亮起时，胡克船长就出现了。
And he's giving his first opening soliloquy about how evil he is and what a menace he is and how we harms people and hates children, and it's all that good stuff.
他的第一个开场独白讲述了他是多么邪恶，他是一个多么大的威胁，以及我们如何伤害人们和仇恨儿童，这都是好东西。
And so Captain Hook is out there.
所以胡克船长就在那里。
And he looks great.
他看起来很棒。
He's got one of those big old fat hats and this great hook and these wild looking boots and everything.
他有一顶又大又旧的胖帽子，还有这个很棒的钩子和这些看起来狂野的靴子等等。
And people are feeling more confident.
人们感觉更加自信。
Something's happening--
有事发生了——
It's a good sign.
这是一个好兆头。
It's a good sign.
这是一个好兆头。
And he's in charge.
他负责。
This guy, he's got a bad mustache.
这家伙，他的胡子很糟糕。
And he is certainly evil.
他当然是邪恶的。
And the audience is totally in his pocket.
而观众完全在他的口袋里。
He's speaking away and gesturing wildly and going on and on about how bad he is.
他不停地说话，疯狂地打手势，不停地说他有多糟糕。
And then, at a certain point, as he gestures, his hook and the entire black casing up to his elbow flings off of his hand and flies into the audience and punches an old lady in the gut.
然后，在某个时刻，当他做出手势时，他的钩子和直到肘部的整个黑色外壳从他的手上甩下来，飞到观众席上，击中了一位老太太的腹部。
And now--
而现在——
He is bad.
他很糟糕。
Jack Hitt He's very bad.
杰克·希特 他很糟糕。
He had the worst ad lib I've ever heard.
他的即兴表演是我听过的最糟糕的。
What do you say at that point?
此时你会说什么？
Because, of course, his hand is now nakedly exposed to the audience.
当然，因为他的手现在赤裸裸地暴露在观众面前。
A tough moment for any actor.
对于任何演员来说都是艰难的时刻。
If the very premise of your character is that you have a hook, your name is Captain Hook, literally, all that's going to happen for the rest of the show is people are going to refer to you by that hook, your entire motivation as a character is the fact that your arm was eaten off by an alligator and that you have to have a hook.
如果你的角色的前提是你有一个钩子，那么你的名字是胡克船长，从字面上看，在节目的其余部分中将发生的所有事情就是人们会用那个钩子来指代你，你作为一个角色的全部动机就是你的手臂被鳄鱼吃掉了，而你必须有一个钩子。
In fact, you have five fingers on a hand.
事实上，你的手上有五个手指。
As if a miracle by the Lord.
仿佛是主的奇迹。
Jack Hitt Captain Hook said, "You know, they just don't make those hooks like they used to." That was actually the ad lib.
杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）胡克船长说：“你知道，他们只是不再像以前那样制作这些钩子了。”这实际上是即兴表演。
I will never forget.
我永远不会忘记。
Then the lights come up, and we are in Never Never Land.
然后灯亮了，我们就到了梦幻岛。
In Act Two.
在第二幕中。
Jack Hitt Yeah, this is, like, Act Two.
杰克·希特 是的，这就是第二幕。
And Captain Hook might have stood in front of the set, but you didn't really see it, because he spoke from shadow.
胡克船长可能站在布景前面，但你并没有真正看到它，因为他在阴影中说话。
And now the lights come up.
现在灯亮了。
And this is supposed to be a very dramatic moment.
这应该是一个非常戏剧性的时刻。
The rumors of all this crew and the painting and everything that was going on and all this construction all worked towards this one moment.
所有这些工作人员的谣言、绘画以及正在发生的一切以及所有这些建设都为了这一刻而努力。
Because when the lights came up, here was Never Never Land, this sort of psychedelic set.
因为当灯光亮起时，这里就是梦幻岛，这种迷幻的场景。
There were papier-mache mushrooms everywhere of different sizes.
到处都是大小不一的纸型蘑菇。
It was absolutely wonderful and surreal.
这绝对是美妙而超现实的。
And there's nobody there.
而且那里没有人。
And then, from the upper rafters of stage right, suddenly, the kids and Peter Pan appear.
然后，突然，孩子们和彼得潘从舞台右侧的上椽出现。
Flying.
飞行。
Jack Hitt Flying.
杰克·希特飞翔。
They're flying.
他们在飞。
And their landing occurs rather rapidly, at an angle of about 45 degrees to the stage.
他们的着陆速度相当快，与舞台成大约 45 度角。
They come down basically like, I don't know, lead sinkers on a line, and crash to the floor, and then are just dragged across the floor like mops and wipe out all of the mushrooms.
它们基本上就像，我不知道，铅坠落在一条线上，然后坠落到地板上，然后像拖把一样被拖过地板，消灭所有蘑菇。
And so now, have we arrived at a turning point in our fiasco?
那么现在，我们的惨败已经到了转折点了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it's clear now that the audience is giving way.
是的，现在很明显观众已经让路了。
Something has been lost.
有些东西丢失了。
Some sense of decorum, that little bit of forgiveness that the audience has for the actors--
某种礼仪感，观众对演员的一点点宽容——
And empathy.
和同理心。
Jack Hitt --and empathy, it's beginning to dissipate.
杰克·希特——同理心开始消散。
Well, there was a split in the audience.
好吧，观众中出现了分歧。
The younger people, who were the least forgiving, they started to go first.
最不宽容的年轻人开始先走。
OK, so the high school students, a couple of college students, maybe, they started to laugh out loud.
好吧，高中生，也许还有几个大学生，他们开始大声笑起来。
And I'll be honest, Ira, I might have been one of those first people to laugh.
老实说，艾拉，我可能是最先笑的人之一。
I was in the 10th grade.
我当时上十年级。
It was hard to not laugh at this thing.
看到这件事很难不笑。
But then, whatever restraint that the audience had, it just evaporated at this point, because there were a number of things that happened in quick succession that just made it impossible to hold any sense of decorum.
但随后，无论观众有多么的克制，在这一点上都烟消云散了，因为接连发生的一些事情，让他们根本无法保持任何礼仪。
Which are?
哪些是？
Jack Hitt For example, Tinker Bell appears for the first time around this moment.
例如，杰克·希特（Jack Hitt）在此时首次出现了小叮当（Tinker Bell）。
And Tinker Bell is, essentially, a light bulb on an extension cord.
小叮当本质上是一个延长线上的灯泡。
What?
什么？
Jack Hitt Yeah.
杰克·希特 是的。
And this was the director's idea of being raw, being very modern.
这就是导演的原始理念，非常现代。
Tinker Bell was just going to be this literal light bulb, dangling from an extension cord.
小叮当只是一个字面上的灯泡，挂在一根延长线上。
Whereas, in other productions, what they'll do is that someone will shine a light.
而在其他作品中，他们要做的就是有人发出光芒。
A beam of focused light.
一束聚焦的光束。
And then that pinprick of light is supposed to be Tinker Bell.
然后那个小光点应该是小叮当。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Or something like that.
或者类似的东西。
Or nothing at all, and people just address the invisible sprite.
或者什么也不做，人们只是称呼看不见的精灵。
Well, that did not happen in this case.
好吧，在本例中并没有发生这种情况。
This bulb comes just dangling down and sort of hangs around this naked light bulb--
这个灯泡只是悬垂下来，有点挂在这个裸露的灯泡周围——
A bare light bulb?
一个裸露的灯泡？
Jack Hitt --just hangs around.
杰克·希特——只是闲逛。
And people are talking to it.
人们正在与之交谈。
And I think Tinker Bell must have had an appearance in the first act.
我认为小叮当一定在第一幕中出现过。
But it was somewhere in here that people just started laughing at this.
但正是在这里的某个地方，人们才开始嘲笑这一点。
Then, another thing that happened was, later on in this scene, if you remember, Wendy gets trapped on an island.
然后，发生的另一件事是，在这个场景的后面，如果你还记得的话，温迪被困在一个岛上。
And she spots a kite that's flying by.
她发现一只风筝飞过。
And she's supposed to grab it and attach it to her back and fly off.
她应该抓住它并将其挂在背上然后飞走。
Well, of course, the kite is attached to the flying apparatus line.
嗯，当然，风筝是连接在飞行器线上的。
And it gets closer and closer to her.
而且距离她也越来越近了。
She's standing on this little papier-mache hill.
她站在这座纸型小山上。
But the flying apparatus people can't quite get it close enough to her to reach.
但人们无法将飞行器拉得离她足够近，无法触及。
So she has to step out into the waters, that she's just told us is filled with crocodiles, to grab it.
所以她必须走进她刚刚告诉我们的水域，那里充满了鳄鱼，才能抓住它。
She finally gets the kite.
她终于拿到了风筝。
And when she yanks on it, it pops off the flying apparatus.
当她猛拉它时，它就会从飞行装置上弹出。
And the hook goes zinging up into the lights and catches.
然后钩子就会上升到灯光下并被钩住。
So now, there is this big loop of wire hanging in front of the stage.
现在，舞台前面挂着一个大线圈。
And there's Wendy, holding the kite.
温迪拿着风筝。
And she ad libbed as best she could, as I remember.
我记得她尽可能地即兴发挥。
She said, "On second thought, maybe I can swim." And with that, she walked off the stage, sort of motioning her arms like you would do the "swim," the dance, in 1965.
她说：“转念一想，也许我会游泳。”说完，她走下舞台，挥动手臂，就像 1965 年跳“游泳”舞蹈一样。
So she does that.
所以她就这么做了。
At this point, the audience-- the actors are just falling apart.
此时，观众、演员们都崩溃了。
They are so frightened of the audience.
他们太害怕观众了。
There are just belly laughs rolling up to the stage from the audience.
观众席上只剩下捧腹大笑。
People are howling with laughter at every mistake.
人们对每一个错误都会哈哈大笑。
And now, any small mistake just takes on these-- any instigation for laughter is just enough for this audience.
而现在，任何一个小错误都会承担这些——任何引人发笑的行为都足以让观众们满意。
And now, the old people have given it up.
而现在，老人家已经放弃了。
Everyone has quit being nice.
每个人都不再友善了。
Now, there's just this kind of frightening roar that comes from the audience every time there's a mistake.
现在，每当出现错误时，观众都会发出这种可怕的吼叫声。
Well, what happened?
嗯，发生了什么事？
At some point, the audience turned and realized, oh wait, I realize what's going on here.
在某个时刻，观众转过身来意识到，哦等等，我意识到这里发生了什么。
This is a fiasco.
这是一场惨败。
Yeah, this is a fiasco.
是的，这是一场惨败。
And what's really interesting about a fiasco is that, once it starts to tumble down, the audience wants to push it further along.
一场惨败真正有趣的是，一旦它开始崩溃，观众就会想把它推得更远。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Ira Glass If the play proceeded perfectly, they would be disappointed.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 如果比赛进展顺利，他们会感到失望。
Oh, it would have been a grave disappointment had there not been just one more mistake after another, one more embarrassment after another.
哦，如果不是一错再错、一桩又一桩尴尬，那就太令人失望了。
Now, the reason they're there is to chronicle these embarrassments.
现在，他们来这里的原因是为了记录这些尴尬。
This is why I have remembered this play for 25 years.
这就是为什么我25年来一直记得这部戏。
Towards Act Three, Ira, the director had decided that she wanted to break down the fourth wall.
在第三幕中，导演决定让艾拉打破第四堵墙。
This was cutting edge theater, as far she was concerned.
就她而言，这是最先进的戏剧。
Before you do this, I just want to explain.
在你这样做之前，我只想解释一下。
When we say, "breaking down the fourth wall," what we mean is the wall between the actors and the audience.
当我们说“打破第四堵墙”时，我们指的是演员和观众之间的墙。
Usually, it's impermeable.
通常，它是不渗透的。
But then, there came a point in the late '60s, early '70s, where a lot of theaters-- basically, the actors would come out into the audience.
但后来，到了 60 年代末、70 年代初，很多剧院——基本上，演员都会出现在观众面前。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And interact with the audience and break down that wall.
并与观众互动并打破那堵墙。
So the idea being that you would get more in touch with the dramatic sense and the reality of what was happening.
所以我们的想法是，你会更多地接触到正在发生的事情的戏剧性和现实性。
Right.
正确的。
Jack Hitt Anyway, so in this particular scene, what was going to happen was that the Indians were going to throw rope ladders down from the balcony and climb down these rope ladders into the audience and move among the audience in their very scary, savage way and frighten us.
无论如何，在这个特定的场景中，将要发生的事情是，印第安人将从阳台上扔下绳梯，然后顺着这些绳梯爬到观众席上，以他们非常可怕、野蛮的方式在观众席中移动，吓唬我们。
Anyway, I knew about this scene because my friend, David, who I went to high school with, was in it.
不管怎样，我知道这个场景是因为我的朋友大卫，他和我一起上高中，就在里面。
And so when David was climbing over the top of this balcony to climb down the rope, he lost his footing and fell to the floor from the balcony, a distance of about 15 to 20 feet--
因此，当大卫爬过这个阳台的顶部并顺着绳子爬下去时，他失去了立足点，从阳台上摔到了地板上，距离大约有15到20英尺——
That's horrible.
太可怕了。
Jack Hitt Yeah.
杰克·希特 是的。
And he landed on both of his feet and sprained both of his ankles and, of course, curled into a fetal position and began to cry.
他双脚着地，扭伤了双脚踝，当然，他蜷缩成胎儿的姿势，开始哭泣。
He was really, really hurt.
他真的非常非常受伤。
Now, to appreciate the horrible moment that I'm now describing, also understand that it's a Friday night.
现在，为了体会我现在所描述的可怕时刻，也要明白这是一个星期五晚上。
We are in a college town.
我们在一个大学城。
And there is a volunteer fire and ambulance department.
还有一个志愿消防和救护部门。
And in order to summon the rescuers from wherever they are, an alarm is sounded that can be heard for five miles.
为了召唤救援人员，无论他们身在何处，都会发出警报，五英里外都能听到。
That alarm is located right over this theater.
那个警报器就位于这个剧院的正上方。
So the alarm goes off, OK?
那么闹钟就响了，好吗？
This is an air raid siren.
这是空袭警报。
It is so loud, you can put your fingers in you ear and it's still hurting your ears.
声音太大了，你可以把手指放进耳朵里，耳朵还是疼。
We're right under it.
我们就在它下面。
It can be heard for five miles.
五英里之外都能听到。
And then, of course, three minutes later, busting through the door of the theater are these 15 firemen, who are in boots, hats.
当然，三分钟后，这 15 名消防员冲进了剧院的门，他们穿着靴子，戴着帽子。
They've got hoses.
他们有软管。
They don't know what it is.
他们不知道那是什么。
All they know is that they've been sent out on a call.
他们只知道他们被派去接电话了。
And to add to the chaos, the director, of course, has flogged the actors that the show must go on.
当然，为了增加混乱，导演还鞭打了演员，让演出必须继续进行。
No matter what.
无论。
Jack Hitt No matter what.
杰克·希特 不管怎样。
So while all of this is happening-- and several people are attending to David.
因此，当这一切发生时，有几个人正在照顾大卫。
And other people have just now decided that, since the firemen are here, he's going to be fine.
其他人刚刚决定，既然消防员在这里，他就会没事的。
They can start laughing.
他们可以开始大笑。
And now, the audience has just completely lost control.
而现在，观众完全失去了控制。
People are standing up in their seats and shouting for more.
人们从座位上站起来，呼喊着要求更多。
They want blood.
他们想要血。
At this point, people are actually injured in the production.
此时，人实际上是在生产中受伤的。
And they want more.
他们想要更多。
Somehow, that's how this entire play ended.
不知何故，整部剧就这样结束了。
What's interesting about this as a fiasco, I feel like the thing that it makes me understand about fiascos, is that the fiasco itself is an altered state.
作为一场惨败，有趣的是，我觉得它让我理解惨败，那就是惨败本身就是一种改变的状态。
That is, all the normal rules are off.
也就是说，所有正常的规则都被取消了。
You have left the normal rules of how the audience is going to interact with the actors.
你已经离开了观众与演员互动的正常规则。
Right.
正确的。
I've never seen a production like this.
我从未见过这样的制作。
And I've never seen an audience collapse like this.
我从来没有见过观众像这样崩溃过。
See, but I wonder, when you think about what people go to theater for, what kind of release people want, people want an experience that will take them out of themselves.
瞧，但我想知道，当你想到人们去剧院的目的是什么，人们想要什么样的释放时，人们想要一种能让他们摆脱自我的体验。
We all want an experience that will take us out of ourselves and into another place and another reality.
我们都希望有一种体验能够带我们走出自我，进入另一个地方和另一个现实。
And it sounds like this production-- even though it was a fiasco, in fact, because it was a fiasco-- was more successful at that than any conventional play could be.
听起来这部作品——尽管它是一场惨败，事实上，因为它是一场惨败——在这方面比任何传统戏剧都更成功。
Well, see, I have to disagree with you there.
好吧，你看，我不同意你的观点。
See, I think the old theater critics, the ancients, would say that the reason you go to the theater to see a great production is to be, I think the word they used to use is "transported." The idea being that you would be lifted away from your animal nature and into these higher, more spiritual realms, or get in touch with these greater, tragic emotions, right?
你看，我认为老的戏剧评论家、古人会说，你去剧院看一部伟大作品的原因是，我认为他们过去用的词是“传送”。这个想法是，你会脱离你的动物本性，进入这些更高、更精神的领域，或者接触到这些更伟大、悲剧性的情感，对吗？
But of course, what happened here was the exact opposite.
但当然，这里发生的情况恰恰相反。
We got transported directly in touch with our animal being.
我们直接接触了我们的动物。
Our baser selves.
我们卑鄙的自己。
Jack Hitt Right.
杰克·希特 对。
But you know, that's almost as rare, if not more so, than a great production.
但你知道，这几乎和一部伟大的作品一样罕见，甚至更罕见。
[MUSIC - "I WON'T GROW UP" BY RICKIE LEE JONES]
[音乐 - 瑞奇·李·琼斯的《我不会长大》]
Act Two, What We Wanted to Do.
第二幕，我们想做的事。
With some fiascos, all social order breaks down.
随着一些惨败，所有的社会秩序都会崩溃。
With others, a thing that you're trying to create simply refuses to be created.
对于其他人来说，你试图创造的东西只是拒绝被创造。
And this next fiasco falls into that second category.
接下来的惨败属于第二类。
Ron Carlson wrote this story.
罗恩·卡尔森写了这个故事。
Jeff Dorchen reads it.
杰夫·多尔钦（Jeff Dorchen）读了它。
What we wanted to do was spill boiling oil onto the heads of our enemies as they attempted to bang down the gates of our village.
我们想做的就是当敌人试图撞破我们村庄的大门时，将滚烫的油泼到他们的头上。
But as everyone now knows, we had some problems, primarily technical problems, that prevented us from doing what we wanted to do the way we had hoped to do it.
但现在众所周知，我们遇到了一些问题，主要是技术问题，使我们无法按照我们希望的方式做我们想做的事情。
What we're asking for today is another chance.
我们今天所要求的是另一个机会。
There has been so much media attention to this boiling oil issue that it is time to clear the air.
媒体对沸油问题的关注如此之多，是时候澄清一下了。
There's a great deal of pressure to dismantle the system we have in place and bring the oil down off the roof.
拆除我们现有的系统并将石油从屋顶上引下来，面临着巨大的压力。
This would be a mistake.
这将是一个错误。
Yes, there were problems last month during the Visigoth raid.
是的，上个月西哥特人突袭期间出现了问题。
But as I will note, these are easily remedied.
但正如我要指出的，这些问题很容易解决。
From its inception, I have been intimately involved with the boiling oil project-- research, development, physical deployment.
从一开始，我就一直密切参与沸油项目——研究、开发、物理部署。
I also happened to be team leader on the roof last month when we had occasion to try the system during the Visigoth attack, about which so much has been written.
上个月，我也碰巧是屋顶上的团队领导，当时我们有机会在西哥特人攻击期间尝试该系统，有关该攻击的文章已经写了很多。
First, the very concept of oil on the roof upset many of our villagers.
首先，屋顶上有石油的概念本身就让我们许多村民感到不安。
Granted, it is exotic.
当然，它是异国情调的。
But all great ideas seem strange at first.
但所有伟大的想法一开始看起来都很奇怪。
When our researchers realized we could position a cauldron 200 feet directly above our main portals, they began to see the possibilities of the greatest strategic defense system in the history of mankind.
当我们的研究人员意识到我们可以在主入口正上方 200 英尺处放置一个大锅时，他们开始看到人类历史上最伟大的战略防御系统的可能性。
But at every turn, we've met problems that our researchers could not, despite their intelligence and intuition, have foreseen.
但在每一个转折点，我们都会遇到我们的研究人员尽管拥有智慧和直觉却无法预见的问题。
For instance, how were we to get a 1,900-pound brass cauldron onto the roof?
例如，我们如何将一个 1,900 磅重的黄铜大锅搬到屋顶上？
In the end, the cauldron was raised to the roof by means of a custom designed net and petard under less than ideal conditions.
最后，在不太理想的条件下，通过定制设计的网和石板将大锅升到了屋顶。
The Retrogoths and the Nilogoths plundered our village almost incessantly during the cauldron's four month ascent.
在大锅上升的四个月期间，逆哥特人和尼洛戈特人几乎不间断地掠夺我们的村庄。
The cauldron's arrival on the roof was quite a moment.
大锅到达屋顶的那一刻真是太棒了。
I remember it well.
我记得很清楚。
We stood by that gleaming symbol of our impending safety, a bright brass beacon to the world that we were not going to take it anymore.
我们站在那闪烁着光芒的象征旁边，象征着我们即将安全，这是一座明亮的黄铜灯塔，向世界表明我们不会再忍受它了。
The wind carried up to us the cries of villagers being carried away by either the Maxigoths or the Minigoths.
风把村民的喊叫声带到了我们身边，他们要么被麦克哥特人，要么被迷你哥特人带走。
But there we stood.
但我们站在那里。
And as I felt the wind in my hair and watched the sporadic procession of home furnishings being carried out of our violated gates, I knew we were perched on the edge of a new epoch.
当我感觉到风吹过我的头发，看着零星的家具从我们被侵犯的大门中搬出时，我知道我们正处于一个新时代的边缘。
Well, there was some excitement.
嗯，心里有些兴奋。
We began at once.
我们立即开始。
We started a fire under the cauldron.
我们在大锅下面生了火。
And we knew we would all soon be safe.
我们知道我们很快就会安全。
At that point, I made a mistake, which I now readily admit.
那时我犯了一个错误，现在我很乐意承认。
In the utter ebullience of the moment, I called down.
在这一刻的热烈气氛中，我向楼下喊了电话。
I did not scream maniacally, as was reported.
我并没有像报道中那样疯狂地尖叫。
I called down that it would not be long.
我打电话说不会太久。
And I probably shouldn't have, because it may have led some of our citizenry to lower their guard.
我可能不应该这样做，因为这可能会导致我们的一些公民放松警惕。
It was a mistake.
这是一个错误。
I admit it.
我承认。
There were, as we found out almost immediately, still some bugs to be worked out of the program.
正如我们几乎立即发现的那样，该程序仍然存在一些错误需要解决。
For instance, there had never been a fire on top of the entry tower before.
例如，入口塔顶以前从未发生过火灾。
And yes, as everyone is aware, we had to spend more time than we really wanted containing the blaze, fueled as it was by the fresh high winds and the tower's wooden shingles.
是的，正如每个人都知道的那样，我们不得不花费比我们真正想要的更多的时间来控制火势，因为新鲜的强风和塔楼的木瓦助长了火势。
I hasten to add that the damage was moderate, as moderate as a four hour fire could be.
我赶紧补充说，损失是中等的，就像四小时的火灾一样中等。
But throughout this relentless series of setbacks, pitfalls, and rooftop fires, there has been a hard core of us absolutely dedicated to doing what we wanted to do, to splash scalding oil onto intruders as they pried or battered, yet again, at our old damaged gates.
但在这一系列无情的挫折、陷阱和屋顶火灾中，我们有一个坚定的核心，绝对致力于做我们想做的事情，当入侵者再次撬动或殴打我们受损的旧大门时，向他们泼滚烫的油。
It was a little fire on the rooftop.
屋顶上着了小火。
It was of no consequence, a fribble, a tiny obstacle to be stepped over with an easy stride.
这并不重要，只是一次轻举妄动，一个可以轻松跨过的小障碍。
Were we tired?
我们累了吗？
Were we dirty?
我们脏了吗？
Were some of us burned and cranky?
我们中的一些人是否被烧伤并且脾气暴躁？
No matter.
不管。
We were committed.
我们很坚定。
And so the next day, the first quiet day we'd had in this village in months, that same sooty cadre stood in the warm ashes high above the entry steps and tried again.
第二天，这是几个月来我们在这个村子里度过的第一个安静的日子，那个黑乎乎的干部站在入口台阶上方温暖的灰烬中，再次尝试。
We knew, as we know right now, that our enemies are manifold and voracious and generally rude and persistent.
我们知道，正如我们现在所知道的那样，我们的敌人是多种多样的、贪婪的，而且通常是粗鲁和顽固的。
And we wanted to be ready.
我们希望做好准备。
But tell me this.
但告诉我这个。
Where does one find out how soon before an enemy attack to put the oil on to boil?
在哪里可以知道敌人进攻前多久将油烧开？
Does anyone know?
有谁知道吗？
Let me assure you, it is not in any book.
我向你保证，任何书上都没有这样的内容。
We were writing the book.
我们正在写这本书。
We were vigilant.
我们保持警惕。
We squinted at the horizon all day long.
我们整天眯着眼睛望着地平线。
And when we first saw the dust in the foothills, we fired our cauldron, using wood that had been elevated through the night in woven baskets.
当我们第一次看到山麓的灰尘时，我们用编织篮中连夜升起的木材点燃了大锅。
Even speaking about it here today, I can feel the excitement stirring in my heart.
今天讲到这里，我仍能感受到内心的激动。
The orange flames licked the sides of the brass container hungrily, as if in concert with our own desperate desire for security and revenge.
橙色的火焰贪婪地舔舐着黄铜容器的侧面，仿佛与我们对安全和复仇的绝望渴望相一致。
In the distance, I could see the phalanx of Visigoths marching toward us like a warship through a sea of dust.
远处，我可以看到西哥特人的方阵像一艘穿过尘海的战船向我们驶来。
In my soul, I pitied them and the end toward which they so steadfastly hastened.
我在内心深处同情他们，也同情他们如此坚定地追求的目标。
They seemed the very incarnation of mistake, their dreams of a day abusing our friends and families and of petty arson and lewd public behavior about to be extinguished in one gorgeous wash of searing oil.
他们似乎就是错误的化身，他们梦想着有一天虐待我们的朋友和家人，以及轻微的纵火和猥亵的公共行为，这些行为即将被一抹华丽的灼热油浇灭。
I was beside myself.
我简直要疯了。
It is important to know now that everyone on the roof that day exhibited orderly and methodical behavior.
现在重要的是要知道那天屋顶上的每个人都表现出了有序和有条理的行为。
There was no wild screaming or cursing or even the kind of sarcastic chuckling you might expect in those about to enjoy a well deserved and long delayed victory.
没有疯狂的尖叫或咒骂，甚至没有你所期望的那些即将享受一场当之无愧且迟来已久的胜利的人的那种讽刺性的笑声。
The problems of the day were not attributable to inappropriate deportment.
当天的问题并不是由于行为不当造成的。
My staff was good.
我的员工很好。
It was when the Visigoths had approached close enough that we could see their cruel eyes and we could read their savage and misspelled tattoos that I realized our error.
当西哥特人走得足够近，我们可以看到他们残酷的眼睛，我们可以读懂他们野蛮且拼写错误的纹身时，我意识到我们的错误。
At that time, I put my hand on the smooth side of our beautiful cauldron and found it only vaguely warm, lukewarm, tepid.
那时，我把手放在我们美丽的大锅光滑的一面上，发现它只是隐约温暖，不冷不热，不温不火。
We had not known then what we now know.
我们当时还不知道现在所知道的事情。
We need to put the oil on sooner.
我们需要尽快加油。
It was my decision, and my decision alone, to do what we did, and that was to pour the warm oil on our enemies as they milled about the front gates, hammering at it with their truncheons.
这是我的决定，也是我一个人的决定，要做我们所做的事情，那就是将温热的油倒在我们的敌人身上，因为他们在前门周围转来转去，用警棍敲打着他们。
Now, this is where my report diverges from so many of the popular accounts.
现在，这就是我的报告与许多受欢迎的说法不同的地方。
We have heard it said that the warm oil served as a stimulant to the attack that followed, the attack I alluded to earlier, in which the criminal activity seemed even more animated than usual in the minds of some of our townspeople.
我们听说，温热的油刺激了接下来的袭击，我之前提到的袭击，在我们一些镇民的头脑中，犯罪活动似乎比平时更加活跃。
Let me say first, I was an eyewitness.
首先声明一下，我是亲历者。
I gave the order to pour the oil, and I witnessed its descent.
我下令倒油，我亲眼目睹了它的下降。
I am happy and proud to report that the oil hit its target with an accuracy and completeness I could have only dreamed of.
我很高兴也很自豪地报告，石油以我梦寐以求的准确性和完整性达到了目标。
We got them all.
我们都得到了。
There was oil everywhere.
到处都是石油。
We soaked them.
我们把它们浸泡了。
We coated them.
我们给它们涂上涂层。
We covered them with a lustrous layer of oil.
我们在它们上覆盖了一层有光泽的油。
Unfortunately, as everyone knows, it was only warm.
不幸的是，众所周知，它只是温暖的。
Their immediate reaction was also what I had hoped for, surprise and panic.
他们立即的反应也是我所希望的，惊讶又惊慌。
This, however, lasted about one second.
然而，这持续了大约一秒钟。
Then, several of them looked up into my face and began waving their fists in what I could only take as a tribute.
然后，他们中的几个人抬头看着我的脸，开始挥舞拳头，我只能将其视为致敬。
And then, yes, they did become quite agitated anew, recommencing their assault on the weary planks of our patchwork gates.
然后，是的，他们确实再次变得非常焦躁，重新开始攻击我们拼凑而成的大门的破旧木板。
Some have said that they were on the verge of abandoning their attack before the oil was cast upon them, which I assure you is not true.
有些人说，在油浇在他们身上之前，他们正处于放弃攻击的边缘，我向你保证这不是真的。
As to the attack that followed, it was no different in magnitude or intensity than any of the dozens we suffer every year.
至于随后发生的袭击，其规模和强度与我们每年遭受的数十次袭击没有什么不同。
It may have seemed more odd or extreme, since the perpetrators were greasy and thereby more offensive.
这可能看起来更奇怪或更极端，因为肇事者很油腻，因此更令人反感。
And they did take every stick of furniture left in the village, including the pews from the church, every chair in the great hall, and four milking stools, the last four from the dairy.
他们确实拿走了村里剩下的所有家具，包括教堂的长椅、大厅里的每把椅子，以及四个挤奶凳，最后四个来自奶牛场。
But I, for one, am simply tired of hearing about the slippery stain on the village steps.
但就我而言，我只是厌倦了听到村庄台阶上湿滑的污渍。
Yes, there is a bit of a mess.
是的，有点乱。
And yes, some of it seems to be permanent.
是的，其中一些似乎是永久性的。
My team removed what they could with salt and talc all this week.
我的团队这一周都用盐和滑石粉去除了他们能去除的东西。
All I'll say now is watch your step as you come and go.
我现在要说的是，来来去去时要小心脚步。
In my mind, it's a small inconvenience to pay for a perfect weapon system.
在我看来，为完美的武器系统付费只是一个小小的不便。
"What We Wanted to Do" is from Ron Carlson's book of short stories called Hotel Eden.
“我们想做的事”出自罗恩·卡尔森的短篇小说集《伊甸园酒店》。
Coming up, how a friendly little radio show about cars from the fair city of Boston ended up the subject of legislative hearings in Wisconsin and other fiascos.
接下来，一个关于美丽城市波士顿汽车的友好小型广播节目如何最终成为威斯康星州立法听证会和其他惨败的主题。
That's in a minute, from Public Radio International, when our program continues.
稍后，国际公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week ON our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来关于该主题的各种不同类型的故事。
Today's program, Fiasco!, our own inquiry into the nature of what makes a fiasco, and when you have left the realm of mishap, stumble, human error, and entered the more rarefied realm of fiasco.
今天的节目《惨败！》是我们对惨败本质的探究，以及当你离开不幸、绊倒、人为错误的领域，进入更稀有的惨败领域时。
We have arrived at Act Three, Car Wars.
我们已经到了第三幕，汽车大战。
If you are hearing the sound of my voice right now, you probably have also heard these voices.
如果你现在听到我的声音，你可能也听到过这些声音。
Gee, you know, I just had a brilliant invention.
哎呀，你知道，我刚刚有了一项出色的发明。
People have cup holders in their cars.
人们的车里都有杯架。
But the problem with a cup holder, it's frequently located in a bad spot.
但杯架的问题是，它经常位于一个不好的地方。
I know what you're going to think of.
我知道你会想到什么。
A straw.
一根稻草。
A three-foot straw.
一根三英尺长的稻草。
A three-foot flexible straw.
一根三英尺长的柔性吸管。
Tom Magliozzi You could even drink gasoline out of the tank if you wanted to.
汤姆·马格利奥齐 如果你愿意的话，你甚至可以喝掉油箱里的汽油。
Or you could drink out of your friend's cup, too--
或者你也可以用你朋友的杯子喝水——
This is Car Talk .
这是汽车谈话。
And though you may think of it as simply the friendly banter of Tom and Ray Magliozzi, Click and Clack, it is also the single most popular hour in public radio.
尽管您可能认为这只是汤姆和雷·马格利奥齐（Tom Magliozzi）和雷·马格利奥齐（Ray Magliozzi）《Click and Clack》的友好玩笑，但这也是公共广播电台中最受欢迎的一个小时。
And this story starts simply enough.
这个故事的开始很简单。
Wisconsin Public Radio, a network of 14 stations in, guess which state, decided they wanted to save a few bucks.
威斯康星州公共广播电台是一个由 14 个电台组成的网络，猜猜是哪个州的，他们决定想节省一些钱。
And years ago, when nearly every other public radio station in the country signed up with the most single popular show in public radio, Wisconsin public radio thought, it'll cost money.
几年前，威斯康星州公共广播电台认为，当该国几乎所有其他公共广播电台都与公共广播电台最受欢迎的节目签约时，这将需要花钱。
It'll cost us tens of thousands of dollars.
这将花费我们数万美元。
And it's just a car show.
而且这只是一场车展。
We can do our own car show.
我们可以举办自己的车展。
So they did.
他们就这么做了。
Welcome to another hour of About Cars .
欢迎收看另一小时的《关于汽车》。
Lori Skelton in the studio with Matt Joseph.
洛丽·斯凯尔顿和马特·约瑟夫在工作室里。
And later in the hour, we have a review of the 1995 Dodge Viper RT/10.
稍后，我们将回顾 1995 款道奇 Viper RT/10。
And we stand to run out of adjectives for this before the hour is over.
不到一小时结束，我们就会用完形容词。
It's a stunning piece of raw, brute force.
这是一种令人惊叹的原始、蛮力。
I think the one word we applied was "wow."
我认为我们使用的一个词是“哇”。
Yeah, basically.
是的，基本上。
We'll add a few others a little later--
我们稍后会添加其他一些——
Matt Joseph's show All About Cars , was on Saturday mornings, where most public radio stations run Car Talk , the most popular show on public radio.
马特·约瑟夫的节目《All About Cars》在周六早上播出，大多数公共广播电台都会播放公共广播电台最受欢迎的节目《Car Talk》。
He was the car expert.
他是汽车专家。
She would prompt him along, asking the questions that you or I might ask.
她会提示他，问你或我可能会问的问题。
Call-ins went into much more technical detail about engines than you ever hear from Tom and Ray.
电话中涉及的有关发动机的技术细节比您从汤姆和雷那里听到的要多得多。
And the show started with 10 minutes of serious automotive industry news.
节目以 10 分钟的汽车行业严肃新闻开始。
General motors announced in Los Angeles last week that they're going to sell EV1, the impact car, which many people have seen.
通用汽车上周在洛杉矶宣布，他们将出售许多人都见过的冲击汽车EV1。
I've actually driven it a couple of years ago.
事实上，几年前我就驾驶过它。
It will be joined by a conversion of the S10--
S10 的改装版也将加入其中——
It was a perfectly decent, solid, informative hour of radio.
这是一个非常体面、扎实、信息丰富的广播时间。
And while it was not the single most popular show on public radio, it got good ratings, had fans, did great in pledge drives.
虽然它不是公共广播电台最受欢迎的节目，但它收视率很高，拥有粉丝，在承诺活动中表现出色。
Matt Joseph thought he was doing everything right.
马特·约瑟夫认为他做的一切都是正确的。
Now, a fiasco can begin, like any human dispute, with a simple misunderstanding, a difference in perspective.
现在，就像任何人类纠纷一样，一场惨败可能始于一个简单的误解、观点差异。
And in this case, Matt Joseph's bosses had a completely different perspective on his show from his perspective.
在这种情况下，马特·约瑟夫的老板对他的节目的看法与他的观点完全不同。
Sure, he got great ratings, his bosses thought, but it could be so much more, if only he more like, well, like the most popular single show on public radio, Car Talk .
当然，他的老板们认为他的收视率很高，但如果他更喜欢公共广播电台最受欢迎的单一节目《汽车谈话》的话，收视率可能会更高。
They were constantly trying to get him to make his show snappier, faster paced, more of an entertainment.
他们不断地试图让他让他的节目变得更加活泼、节奏更快、更具娱乐性。
Matt Joseph thought they were wrong.
马特·约瑟夫认为他们错了。
They were always threatening to cancel him and bring in Car Talk .
他们总是威胁要取消他并引入 Car Talk。
They wrote unpleasant memos, and there were tense meetings.
他们写了令人不快的备忘录，会议气氛紧张。
And this fundamental disagreement laid the groundwork for the fiasco that followed.
这种根本性的分歧为随后的惨败奠定了基础。
Finally, because of a complicated deal involving Whad'Ya Know?
最后，因为一项复杂的交易，涉及“你知道什么？”
, Michael Feldman's game show, which is produced by Wisconsin Public Radio, the price of Car Talk to Wisconsin Public Radio dropped from $33,000 to an affordable $10,000.
威斯康星州公共广播电台制作的迈克尔·费尔德曼的游戏节目中，威斯康星州公共广播电台的 Car Talk 价格从 33,000 美元降至实惠的 10,000 美元。
And the network which had thought that it did not need the single most popular show on public radio looked over its shoulder at what was happening on 400 other radio stations and decided that maybe, in fact, they had been wrong.
该电视网原本认为自己不需要公共广播电台上最受欢迎的节目，但仔细观察其他 400 个广播电台正在发生的情况后，发现也许他们错了。
They wanted Car Talk.
他们想要汽车谈话。
Joy Cardin is one of the Wisconsin Public Radio programmers behind all this.
乔伊·卡丁是这一切背后的威斯康星州公共广播电台程序员之一。
The most recent audience research that we had showed that Car Talk is a program that works extremely well when it's paired with Whad'Ya Know?
我们最近的受众研究表明，Car Talk 是一个与 Whad'Ya Know 搭配使用时效果非常好的节目。
with Michael Feldman.
与迈克尔·费尔德曼。
And in fact, both programs do better.
事实上，这两个程序都做得更好。
And we made the recommendation that the best place to put Car Talk would be 9 o'clock on Saturday morning, followed by Whad'Ya Know?
我们建议播放 Car Talk 的最佳位置是周六早上 9 点，其次是 Whad'Ya Know？
with Michael Feldman.
与迈克尔·费尔德曼。
Of course, 9:00 in the morning was when All About Cars was on the air.
当然，早上9:00正是All About Cars播出的时间。
But, says, Joy Cardin, they did not want to kill All About Cars.
但是，乔伊·卡丹说，他们并不想扼杀《All About Cars》。
They simply wanted to move it to a different time.
他们只是想把它移到不同的时间。
We knew About Cars was a popular program.
我们知道《关于汽车》是一个很受欢迎的节目。
We certainly were trying to keep it on the schedule.
我们当然想把它按计划进行。
The recommendation was to find a mutually agreeable time on Saturday afternoons.
建议在周六下午找到一个双方都同意的时间。
Did you name a specific time?
你有指定具体时间吗？
Joy Cardin We started with a specific time.
乔伊·卡丹 我们从一个特定的时间开始。
We started with a specific time of 3 o'clock.
我们从 3 点的特定时间开始。
So what happened then?
那么后来发生了什么？
What was his response?
他的反应是什么？
Ms. Cardin said they were thinking of moving it to 3 o'clock.
卡丁女士说他们正在考虑将时间移至 3 点。
I said I found that unacceptable.
我说我觉得这是不可接受的。
I never said I wouldn't do it.
我从来没有说过我不会这样做。
I just said I found it unacceptable in the sense that I really didn't like it.
我只是说我觉得这是不可接受的，因为我真的不喜欢它。
Our response to that was, "Well, is there any time on Saturday afternoon that would be agreeable to you to reschedule this program?" "No."
我们对此的回应是：“那么，您是否同意在周六下午的任何时间重新安排该计划？” “不。”
The last thing I said to them was, "I suggest we do it at 8 o' clock." They said, "We will think about it and get back to you." They got back to me by firing me.
我对他们说的最后一句话是：“我建议我们八点钟做。”他们说：“我们会考虑一下并回复你。”他们通过解雇我来回复我。
I never flatly rejected 3 o'clock.
我从来没有断然拒绝3点钟。
Now, if you want to ask me, would I have rejected 3 o' clock?
现在，如果你要问我，我会拒绝三点吗？
Yes, I would have.
是的，我会的。
Now, to understand why he would say no to 3 o'clock, you have to understand that, from Matt Joseph's perspective, this was just the latest insult from bosses who had always doubted and questioned the way he did his show.
现在，要理解他为什么会对《3点钟》说不，你必须明白，从马特·约瑟夫的角度来看，这只是老板们的最新侮辱，他们一直对他的表演方式表示怀疑和质疑。
It made no sense to him, this treatment.
这种治疗对他来说毫无意义。
After all, his ratings were strong.
毕竟他的收视率很高。
Sometimes, he was the single strongest show in their Saturday morning lineup.
有时，他是周六早上阵容中最强的一位。
His show was inexpensive.
他的演出很便宜。
It was a success.
这是成功的。
Why couldn't they be more respectful?
为什么他们就不能更加尊重一些呢？
If somebody had come to me and said, "Hey, Matt, we've got a really weak afternoon, and we think you can really help.
如果有人来找我说：“嘿，马特，我们度过了一个非常虚弱的下午，但我们认为你确实可以提供帮助。
And we're going to give you really adequate promotion, and so forth.
我们将为您提供真正足够的晋升，等等。
Would you help us out with our--," if somebody had approached me that way, I certainly would have listened and probably would have agreed to it.
你能帮助我们解决我们的问题吗？”如果有人以这种方式接近我，我当然会倾听，并且可能会同意。
Now, you know, one definition of a fiasco is something small and ordinary that turns into something monstrously large.
现在，你知道，惨败的一个定义是，一件小而普通的事情变成了一件巨大的事情。
And what could be smaller in this world, my friend, than simply trying to reschedule a public radio car show from the morning to the afternoon?
我的朋友，这个世界上还有什么比简单地将公共广播汽车秀从早上重新安排到下午更小的事情呢？
Well after his show was canceled, 1,500 calls and letters came into Wisconsin Public Radio, demanding that Matt Joseph be put back on the air.
在马特·约瑟夫的节目被取消后不久，威斯康星州公共广播电台接到了 1,500 个电话和信件，要求让马特·约瑟夫重新播出。
Contributors to the network demanded $2,600 in pledges to be returned.
该网络的贡献者要求退还 2,600 美元的认捐。
126 people said they would never give money to the network again.
126 人表示，他们再也不会向该网络捐款。
Matt Joseph started putting out a monthly newsletter about the fiasco.
马特·约瑟夫开始每月发布一份有关这次惨败的时事通讯。
He organized a rally in Madison.
他在麦迪逊组织了一次集会。
There were editorials in local papers and letters to the editor.
当地报纸上有社论和给编辑的信。
Against his will, he said, it became his cause.
他说，这违背了他的意愿，这成了他的事业。
Car Talk is like a monolith.
Car Talk 就像一块巨石。
It has crushed all of the independent car shows around the country, one by one, over the years.
多年来，它一一碾压了全国所有的独立车展。
It just goes on like a juggernaut.
它就像一个主宰一样继续下去。
We had something better.
我们有更好的东西。
Now, there should be room for one serious show on public radio, one show that has content.
现在，公共广播电台应该有空间举办一档严肃的节目，一档有内容的节目。
Well, finally, the state of Wisconsin legislature, which gives millions each year to Wisconsin Public Radio, did a state audit investigating the matter, interviewing programmers, showing up at the offices of Wisconsin Public Radio.
好吧，最后，威斯康星州立法机构每年向威斯康星州公共广播电台提供数百万美元，对此事进行了州审计，采访了出现在威斯康星州公共广播电台办公室的程序员。
They showed up.
他们出现了。
And two auditors did show up to go through our listener files, to see the letters that came in from listeners regarding About Cars .
两名审计员确实出现了，检查了我们的听众档案，查看了听众发来的有关《关于汽车》的信件。
And we provided them with a conference room.
我们为他们提供了一间会议室。
And they went through all of the letters and counted them up, how many were for About Cars and how many were for Car Talk.
他们检查了所有的信件并进行了计数，有多少是关于汽车的，有多少是关于汽车谈话的。
If you had to estimate how much time state employees, taxpayer-paid employees, had to spend and ended up spending investigating this, was it two guys for a week?
如果你必须估计国家雇员、纳税人支付工资的雇员必须花费多少时间并最终花费多少时间来调查此事，是两个人一周吗？
How long were they on this case?
他们处理这个案子花了多长时间？
It seemed to me that it went on for about three months.
在我看来，这种情况持续了大约三个月。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
Joy Cardin Yeah, it did.
乔伊·卡丹 是的，确实如此。
It seemed to me that it went on for many weeks.
在我看来，这种情况持续了好几个星期。
And it wasn't every day, but it was very distracting.
虽然不是每天都有，但是却很让人分心。
But this was not the only use of taxpayer dollars on this urgent public matter.
但这并不是纳税人的钱在这一紧急公共事务上的唯一用途。
A joint audit committee of the state legislature held a public hearing, in which legislators and listeners criticized Wisconsin Public Radio programmers.
州立法机构的联合审计委员会举行了公开听证会，立法者和听众批评了威斯康星州公共广播电台的程序员。
40 people showed up from all over the state to testify.
来自全州各地的40人到场作证。
It made headlines throughout the state.
这件事成为了全州的头条新闻。
And all this over whether a car show should've been moved to the afternoon or taken off the air.
所有这些都围绕着车展是否应该移至下午或停止播出。
Senator Robert Wirch, who co-chaired the hearing, says the citizens of Wisconsin were mad.
听证会联合主席、参议员罗伯特·维尔奇表示，威斯康星州的公民都疯了。
He had no choice but to have hearings.
他别无选择，只能举行听证会。
Are we micromanaging the station?
我们是否对车站进行微观管理？
No. We were providing a forum for all sides to come in and discuss the matter.
不。我们正在为各方提供一个论坛来讨论这个问题。
I have to say, though, as an outsider, as somebody who doesn't live in Wisconsin, it just is so strange, the notion that the state legislature would get involved with an issue, what seems so small.
不过，我不得不说，作为一个局外人，作为一个不住在威斯康星州的人，州立法机构会介入一个看似很小的问题，这真是太奇怪了。
Well, this was a locally generated program in Wisconsin.
嗯，这是威斯康星州本地生成的程序。
And what did they bring?
他们带来了什么？
A network program in from Massachusetts.
来自马萨诸塞州的一个网络程序。
That has clearly angered citizens of Wisconsin.
这显然激怒了威斯康星州的公民。
I mean, this is not unusual, I guess.
我的意思是，我想这并不罕见。
We have demonstrations in just about every city that we're on in.
我们几乎在我们所在的每个城市都有示威活动。
There are people who come to the station, and they picket, and they scream, and they yell.
有人来到车站，他们纠察，他们尖叫，他们大喊大叫。
Well, for some perspective on this matter, I decided to go to the top, to the men behind the single most popular hour in public radio, Click and Clack, Tom and Ray Magliozzi.
好吧，为了对这个问题有一些看法，我决定去看看公共广播电台“Click and Clack”、Tom 和 Ray Magliozzi 最受欢迎的一小时节目背后的人物。
Since you guys weren't at the hearings to speak in your own defense, I wanted to play you a quote from State Senator Robert Wirch, who held these hearings.
由于你们没有在听证会上为自己辩护，我想向你们播放主持这些听证会的州参议员罗伯特·维尔奇的话。
Wirch.
维尔奇。
Ira Glass Senator Robert Wirch of the good state of Wisconsin, who held these hearings.
来自威斯康星州的艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 参议员罗伯特·维尔奇 (Robert Wirch) 主持了这些听证会。
And I wanted to just play what he said about your show versus the local show, which was hosted by a guy named Matt Joseph, and just give you a chance to respond.
我只想播放他对你的节目与当地节目（由一个名叫马特·约瑟夫的人主持的节目）所说的话，然后给你一个回应的机会。
Sure, I'd love to hear it.
当然，我很想听听。
Tom Magliozzi Yeah, OK.
汤姆·马格利奥齐 是的，好的。
Here we go.
开始了。
Robert Wirch Well, when I listened to Matt Joseph, I had the feeling I was listening to an expert.
罗伯特·维尔奇（Robert Wirch）：嗯，当我听马特·约瑟夫（Matt Joseph）讲话时，我感觉自己在听一位专家的讲话。
And he is acknowledged by car collectors around the state as an expert.
他被全州的汽车收藏家视为专家。
And the other one, I think, is kind of showbiz with looking for a laugh.
我认为另一个是娱乐圈，旨在寻找笑点。
And I can understand where the casual fan may like the laughter and camaraderie of the two guys that do the show.
我可以理解普通粉丝可能会喜欢表演节目的两个人的笑声和友情。
But on public radio, we're used to listening to people with a little more expertise.
但在公共广播中，我们习惯于聆听具有更多专业知识的人的声音。
Response?
回复？
Tom Magliozzi Yeah.
汤姆·马格利奥齐 是的。
Boy, if that is not the classic definition of a stiff, I don't know what is.
天哪，如果这不是僵硬的经典定义，我不知道什么才是。
Yeah, he sounds like a barrel of laughs.
是的，他听起来就像是笑声。
Well, wouldn't you love to have coffee with him?
那么，你不想和他一起喝咖啡吗？
"On public radio, we're more used to listening to more boring things than these two jerks." Well, tell him that we feel the same way about him.
“在公共广播上，我们更习惯于听比这两个混蛋更无聊的事情。”好吧，告诉他我们对他有同样的感觉。
And I didn't enjoy listening to what he had to say, either.
我也不喜欢听他说的话。
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
Everyone has his own opinion.
每个人都有自己的看法。
I don't think he's wrong about what he said.
我不认为他说的有错。
No, and I'm sure this other fellow, whom we attempted to usurp here, probably is a lot more knowledgeable, certainly more informative, than we are.
不，我确信我们试图在这里篡夺的另一个人可能比我们更有知识，当然也更有信息。
Because we don't take the car business, at least on the radio, that seriously.
因为我们并没有那么认真地对待汽车业务，至少在广播领域是这样。
Ira, but did anyone speak in our behalf?
艾拉，但是有人代表我们发言吗？
Of course not.
当然不是。
Ira Glass Apparently not.
艾拉·格拉斯显然不是。
No, there apparently was an entire hearing, and nobody spoke for the two of you.
不，显然整个听证会都没有人为你们两个说话。
And nobody-- why weren't we invited to defend ourselves?
没有人——为什么我们没有被邀请为自己辩护？
I would have flown my brother out there.
我本来会带我兄弟去那里的。
In a sense, the Wisconsin car show fiasco happens on a much smaller scale whenever any show with any following is taken off any public radio station in this country.
从某种意义上说，威斯康星州汽车展惨败的规模要小得多，只要任何有追随者的节目从这个国家的任何公共广播电台上撤下来。
People get upset, partly, I think, because every pledge drive-- which is, what, three or four times a year on most of these stations-- listeners hear programmers like me say, "You are the 'public' in public radio." And so listeners are understandably angry, being the "public" in public radio, when a show they like is suddenly gone.
我认为，人们感到不安的部分原因是，每次承诺活动（大多数此类电台每年都会举行三到四次）听众都会听到像我这样的程序员说：“你们是公共广播电台中的‘公众’。”因此，当听众喜欢的节目突然消失时，作为公共广播中的“公众”，听众会感到愤怒是可以理解的。
But it is exactly incidents like this one in Wisconsin, and programmers' fear of incidents like this one in Wisconsin, that makes innovation so slow in most of the public radio system.
但正是像威斯康星州这样的事件，以及程序员对威斯康星州这样的事件的恐惧，导致大多数公共广播系统的创新如此缓慢。
Yeah, that's it.
是的，就是这样。
I believe that this really has had a very chilling effect on Wisconsin Public Radio and myself, personally.
我相信这确实对威斯康星州公共广播电台和我个人产生了非常令人不寒而栗的影响。
Joy Cardin, who spent months dealing with the Wisconsin car show fiasco, says that now she thinks twice before moving any show.
乔伊·卡丁(Joy Cardin)花了几个月的时间处理威斯康星州车展的惨败，她说现在在转移任何车展之前她都会三思而后行。
And it makes you think long and hard before you make those kinds of decisions, because you don't want necessarily a public outcry or the legislature examining your every move.
这会让你在做出此类决定之前深思熟虑，因为你不一定希望引起公众的强烈抗议或立法机关审查你的一举一动。
This fiasco is also a parable of bigger changes coming within the public radio system.
这次惨败也是公共广播系统内部即将发生更大变化的寓言。
Partly because of the success of Car Talk , there is a move to come up with lighter, more entertaining shows in the public radio system, especially for weekends.
部分由于汽车谈话的成功，公共广播系统开始推出更轻松、更有趣的节目，特别是在周末。
Matt Joseph's fiasco occurred partly because he represented an older style of public radio, a more informative style.
马特·约瑟夫的惨败部分是因为他代表了一种老式的公共广播风格，一种信息量更大的风格。
After some months off the air, Matt Joseph now does his show All About Cars on a commercial station, WDTY in Madison.
停播几个月后，马特·约瑟夫现在在麦迪逊的 WDTY 商业电视台播出他的节目《All About Cars》。
He's on up against Car Talk.
他正在对抗 Car Talk。
Is this over for you yet?
这对你来说已经结束了吗？
Matt Joseph Is it over yet?
马特·约瑟夫 结束了吗？
No. No, it will be over when the changes are made at Wisconsin Public Radio that restores that service to what it used to be, a responsive service that has things like children's programming, that has local drama, that educates students in broadcasting.
不，不，当威斯康星州公共广播电台做出改变，将服务恢复到原来的样子时，一切都会结束，这是一种响应式服务，有儿童节目、地方戏剧、教育学生广播等内容。
These are all things that don't go on over there anymore.
这些都是那里不再发生的事情。
You're describing all these things that used to be the kinds of things that were on public radio that didn't draw much audience.
你所描述的所有这些事情过去都是公共广播上没有吸引太多观众的事情。
Well, I think there's going to have to be room for things that don't draw much audience.
嗯，我认为那些不吸引太多观众的东西必须有空间。
And I think they would draw much considerable audience if they were done right.
我认为，如果做得好的话，他们会吸引大量观众。
Act Four, Fiascoes as a Force for Good.
第四幕，惨败作为正义的力量。
George Clooney, Jennifer Aniston, Shannon Dougherty, Jodie Foster, Alicia Silverstone, Brad Pitt, Keanu Reeves, Sharon Stone, and John Travolta.
乔治·克鲁尼、詹妮弗·安妮斯顿、香农·道尔蒂、朱迪·福斯特、艾丽西亚·希尔维斯通、布拉德·皮特、基努·里维斯、莎朗·斯通和约翰·特拉沃尔塔。
Also, George Burns, Bob Hope, Gene Kelly, Gena Rowlands.
还有乔治·伯恩斯、鲍勃·霍普、吉恩·凯利、吉娜·罗兰兹。
Also, Quentin Tarantino, John Waters, Nora Ephron, Joel Schumacher.
还有昆汀·塔伦蒂诺、约翰·沃特斯、诺拉·艾芙隆、乔尔·舒马赫。
Margy Rochlin has interviewed all these people.
玛吉·罗克林采访了所有这些人。
She does big magazine feature stories for big magazines.
她为大型杂志撰写专题报道。
But the very, very first big feature assignment she was actually sent out on by a publication was in 1982.
但真正由一家出版物派给她的第一个大型专题任务是在 1982 年。
The Los Angeles Reader sent out a very nervous, very youthful Margy Rochlin to interview Moon Unit Zappa, daughter of Frank, who had consented to her second interview ever after the release of her runaway hit song, "Valley Girl."
《洛杉矶读者报》派出一位非常紧张、非常年轻的玛吉·罗克林来采访弗兰克的女儿穆恩·尤尼特·扎帕，她在她的热门歌曲《山谷女孩》发行后同意接受她的第二次采访。
In this little bit that she does on the song, she's using a lot of this language, this sort of Valspeak that no one had never heard before.
在她在歌曲中所做的这一点中，她使用了很多这种语言，这种以前没有人从未听过的瓦尔语。
And it was considered really exotic.
它被认为非常具有异国情调。
And so I was from the Valley, so I was sent to go talk to her.
我来自山谷，所以我被派去和她谈话。
She was one of your people.
她是你们的人之一。
Speak to her in your secret, private argot.
用你的秘密、私人用语与她交谈。
Exactly.
确切地。
And of course, what is so touching to me is that I totally bought that.
当然，最让我感动的是我完全买了它。
"You're right.
“你是对的。
I'm the right person for the job.
我是这份工作的合适人选。
I'm going to go speak to her in the Valley language, and we will bond."
我要去用山谷语言与她交谈，我们就会建立联系。”
So you get there, and you're a bit nervous.
所以你到了那里，你有点紧张。
And the pressure is on, which is, of course, the setting for a possible triumph or a possible fiasco.
压力也随之而来，当然，这可能会带来胜利，也可能会带来惨败。
Well, what I noticed was it was a tense situation.
嗯，我注意到这是一个紧张的情况。
I just didn't feel like it was going very well.
我只是觉得进展不太顺利。
And the mother was sort of hovering.
母亲有点徘徊。
Right.
正确的。
Well, we have a recording of it, because you had a tape recorder rolling during this.
嗯，我们有录音，因为在这期间你有录音机在转动。
Yes.
是的。
What are some other hangouts in the Valley, besides the Galleria?
除了 Galleria 之外，硅谷还有哪些其他去处？
Bowling alleys with big arcades are very popular.
带有大型拱廊的保龄球馆非常受欢迎。
Like what?
比如什么？
Oh, I'm trying-- at this point, I'm sort of at that rock bottom level that everyone can get at in an interview, where you're just saying, "What's your favorite color?" And she's trying to help me along.
哦，我正在尝试——在这一点上，我有点处于每个人都可以在采访中达到的最低水平，你只是说，“你最喜欢的颜色是什么？”她正在努力帮助我。
Kirkwood's is gone.
柯克伍德的已经不见了。
Moon Unit Zappa It's now the sports center--
Moon Unit Zappa 现在是体育中心——
Oh, but it's the same thing?
哦，不过是同一个东西吗？
Moon Unit Zappa Yeah, it's still very popular--
Moon Unit Zappa 是的，它仍然很受欢迎--
So we're seated in the den.
所以我们坐在书房里。
And the mother made me coffee.
妈妈给我泡了咖啡。
But I was too nervous to drink it.
但我太紧张了，不敢喝。
But I sort of kept staring it, and she kept staring at it.
但我一直盯着它看，她也一直盯着它。
And I felt like it was pretty important that, at some point, I'd better drain that coffee cup.
我觉得在某些时候我最好把咖啡杯里的咖啡倒掉，这一点非常重要。
And so what happened was, Moon told me a joke.
结果发生的是，穆恩给我讲了一个笑话。
And I didn't see the joke coming.
我没有看到笑话发生。
And right before she told me the joke, I had taken a big swig of the coffee, which was now cold.
就在她给我讲笑话之前，我喝了一大口咖啡，咖啡已经冷了。
And when she told me the joke, I burst out laughing.
当她告诉我这个笑话时，我大笑起来。
And I started to choke.
我开始窒息。
And so I pressed my lips together, so I didn't spit it out.
于是我抿紧了嘴唇，没有吐出来。
I didn't want to do a spit-take.
我不想吐口水。
And the coffee came shooting out my nose.
咖啡从我的鼻子里喷了出来。
Shooting out your nose?
射出你的鼻子？
Margy Rochlin Shooting right out my nose.
玛吉·罗克林 从我鼻子里开枪。
[COUGHING] Adelaide Sloatman Are you OK?
[咳嗽] 阿德莱德·斯洛特曼 你还好吗？
Get your hands up.
举起手来。
And I was really embarrassed.
我真的很尴尬。
But I couldn't breathe.
但我无法呼吸。
At the same time, I was choking.
与此同时，我也窒息了。
And I jumped up.
我跳了起来。
And I sort of started running around the room, knocking things over.
我开始在房间里跑来跑去，把东西打翻了。
And I think that they didn't know what was going on.
我认为他们不知道发生了什么事。
But the mother began chasing me.
但妈妈开始追我。
She began chasing you?
她开始追你了？
Margy Rochlin She began chasing me, because I was sort of running from corner to corner, trying to catch my breath.
玛吉·罗克林 她开始追我，因为我正从一个角落跑到另一个角落，试图喘口气。
And she began chasing me.
她开始追我。
And at a certain point, she got behind me, and she gave me the Heimlich maneuver.
在某个时刻，她走到我身后，对我进行了海姆立克急救法。
Put your arms up.
举起你的手臂。
No, really.
不，真的。
Seriously.
严重地。
OK?
好的？
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Ira Glass Well, I've been in the news business-- I've been a reporter for 20 years.
[插话] Ira Glass 嗯，我一直从事新闻行业——我当记者已有 20 年了。
And nobody has ever given me the Heimlich maneuver while I've been on a story.
当我讲故事时，从来没有人给过我海姆利克急救法。
Well, I always say that it's a benchmark.
嗯，我总是说这是一个基准。
It's a very low benchmark.
这是一个非常低的基准。
And I can do any interview, I can get thrown off a set, I can be cursed out by the subject.
我可以接受任何采访，我可以被赶出现场，我可以被这个主题诅咒。
But I can leave and get in the car.
但我可以离开并上车。
And I can drive home and think, I didn't blow coffee out my nose.
我可以开车回家想，我没有把咖啡从鼻子里吹出来。
It was sort of like we had all been in an earthquake together.
这有点像我们一起经历了一场地震。
And all of the nervousness left the room.
所有的紧张感都消失在房间里。
And suddenly, we were three gals, just chatting.
突然间，我们变成了三个女孩，只是聊天。
And I remember that I sort of hugged them both when I left.
我记得我离开时拥抱了他们俩。
Wow.
哇。
Margy Rochlin They were now my friends.
玛吉·罗克林 他们现在是我的朋友了。
It's interesting, because one of our criteria for a fiasco is that all social order, the normal social structure, breaks down.
这很有趣，因为我们判断惨败的标准之一是所有社会秩序、正常的社会结构都崩溃了。
And literally, that's what happens here.
从字面上看，这就是这里发生的事情。
The normal interview stops.
正常的采访停止了。
And the social structure of the moment completely changes.
当下的社会结构彻底改变。
The mom gives you the Heimlich maneuver.
妈妈给你进行海姆立克急救法。
And then, suddenly, it stops feeling like an interview.
然后，突然间，它不再像一次采访了。
Yeah.
是的。
And I have to say that it was a very embarrassing experience, and it completely made me feel close to them.
而我不得不说，这是一次非常尴尬的经历，也彻底让我对他们产生了亲近感。
It was so interesting.
太有趣了。
When Moon's father died a while ago, I bumped into her somewhere, and we both burst into tears.
不久前Moon的父亲去世了，我在某个地方碰到了她，我们都哭了。
I really felt like a little sister of mine had had a loss.
我真的感觉就像我的一个小妹妹吃了亏一样。
And the starting point was--
而出发点是——
That moment.
那一刻。
Margy Rochlin --that moment.
玛吉·罗克林——那一刻。
To me, the thing about it that's useful is that it shows the useful purpose of a fiasco.
对我来说，它的有用之处在于它显示了一场惨败的有用目的。
That is, when social order breaks down, that could be a force not just for chaos and for entropy and for evil, but, in fact, that could be a force for good.
也就是说，当社会秩序崩溃时，这不仅可能成为混乱、熵和邪恶的力量，而且事实上，这也可能成为善良的力量。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass It can bring people together.
Ira Glass 它可以将人们聚集在一起。
Right.
正确的。
It was actually this huge success to me.
这对我来说实际上是巨大的成功。
I'd never been sent out under these kind of certain circumstances before.
我以前从来没有在这种特殊情况下被送出去过。
And I remember, we beat the local paper.
我记得，我们击败了当地报纸。
The Herald Examiner followed us a week later.
一周后，《先驱观察报》对我们进行了追踪。
And so we had the first story.
这样我们就有了第一个故事。
And it was sort of considered the definitive one, because we had this glossary of terms that I had made or put together--
它被认为是决定性的，因为我们有我制作或整理的术语表——
Of Valleyspeak terms.
谷语术语。
Margy Rochlin Of Valleyspeak terms.
玛吉·罗克林 (Margy Rochlin) 山谷用语。
And then it was syndicated.
然后它就被联合起来了。
And most of the quotable stuff that you ended up using in your story happened after the incident?
您在故事中最终使用的大部分引用内容都发生在事件发生之后？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Happened after squirting the coffee through your nose.
Ira Glass 发生在你把咖啡从鼻子里喷出来之后。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Exactly.
确切地。
It's a technique I don't suggest anyone try.
我不建议任何人尝试这种技术。
For years afterwards, Moon would send me postcards.
多年后，穆恩都会给我寄明信片。
And on the postcard somewhere would be a picture of a nose, and there would be liquid coming out of it, sort of like my logo.
明信片上的某个地方会有一张鼻子的图片，并且会有液体从里面流出来，有点像我的标志。
Well, our program was produced today by Nancy Updike and myself with Paul Tough, Alix Spiegel, and Julie Snyder.
嗯，我们今天的节目是由南希·厄普代克和我、保罗·托夫、阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和朱莉·斯奈德共同制作的。
Elizabeth Meister runs our website.
伊丽莎白·梅斯特 (Elizabeth Meister) 负责运营我们的网站。
Contributing editors for this show, Jack Hitt, Margy Rochlin, and Consigliere Sarah Vowell.
本节目的特约编辑是 Jack Hitt、Margy Rochlin 和 Consigliere Sarah Vowell。
Production help from [?
来自 [?的生产帮助
Laura Doggett, ?] Seth Lind, and Cathy Hoang.
劳拉·道吉特 (Laura Doggett)，？] 塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 和凯茜·黄 (Cathy Hoang)。
Musical help from Mr. John Connors.
约翰·康纳斯先生提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our story about Car Talk and this whole program first aired in 1997.
[鸣谢] 我们关于 Car Talk 的故事以及整个节目于 1997 年首次播出。
Wisconsin Public Radio is now 27 stations.
威斯康星州公共广播电台现在有 27 个电台。
Back then, we could barely get on the air in Wisconsin.
那时，我们在威斯康星州几乎无法播出。
You know, our show isn't on-- we're on in Milwaukee, but the state network hasn't picked us up yet.
你知道，我们的节目没有在密尔沃基播出，但州电视网还没有接听我们的节目。
Somehow, I don't think this is going to help.
无论如何，我认为这不会有帮助。
No, this won't help.
不，这没有帮助。
Tom Magliozzi No, I don't think this is going to help very much, either.
Tom Magliozzi 不，我认为这也没有多大帮助。
Maybe send a copy of it to Senator Wirch.
也许可以将其副本发送给参议员维尔奇。
He might be interested.
他可能有兴趣。
If you want a copy of our program, whether you're a state senator in Wisconsin or not, visit our website, www.thisamericanlife.org, where we now have a free weekly podcast, plus all our old shows.
如果您想要我们的节目副本，无论您是否是威斯康星州的州参议员，请访问我们的网站 www.thisamericanlife.org，我们现在每周提供免费播客以及所有旧节目。
You can get those at the iTunes store, as well.
您也可以在 iTunes 商店购买这些内容。
This American Life is distributed by Public Radio International.
《美国生活》由国际公共广播电台发行。
[FUNDING CREDITS] WBEZ management oversight for our program by Mr. Torey Malatia, who explains the quality of our program this way.
[资金来源] Torey Malatia 先生对我们的项目进行 WBEZ 管理监督，他以这种方式解释了我们项目的质量。
You know, they just don't make those hooks like they used to.
你知道，他们只是不再像以前那样制作那些钩子了。
No, they don't.
不，他们没有。
No, they don't.
不，他们没有。
I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯，下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。