609: It’s Working Out Very Nicely - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #609 | February 3, 2017 609: It’s Working Out Very Nicely Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 609 集 | 2017 年 2 月 3 日 609：一切进展顺利 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
OK.
好的。
Let's agree on facts.
让我们就事实达成一致。
Interpreter [Somali]
口译员 [索马里语]
[Somali] Ira Glass Nairobi, Kenya.
[索马里] Ira Glass 肯尼亚内罗毕。
Saturday, the day after President Trump signed his executive order temporarily stopping all refugees from entering the United States.
周六，即特朗普总统签署暂时阻止所有难民进入美国的行政命令的第二天。
This is a transit center for refugees, run by the International Organization for Migration, the IOM, which helps them relocate.
这是一个难民中转中心，由国际移民组织（IOM）管理，帮助他们重新安置。
In a tent, about 40 Somalis sit on plastic chairs-- mostly men.
在一个帐篷里，大约 40 名索马里人坐在塑料椅子上——其中大多数是男性。
They're banned from the United States for two reasons, if you want to get technical about it.
如果您想了解相关技术，它们被美国禁止入境的原因有两个。
Because they're refugees, and because they're from one of the seven countries where we're banning all travelers-- from Somalia.
因为他们是难民，也因为他们来自我们禁止所有旅客入境的七个国家之一——索马里。
A middle aged Kenyan, George Okech, stands in front of them with the unenviable job of explaining the news.
一位中年肯尼亚人乔治·奥克奇（George Okech）站在他们面前，负责解释这一消息，这一工作并不令人羡慕。
Many of these men were supposed to fly in the next two or three days.
其中许多人预计将在接下来的两三天内飞行。
And as it is now, you know that there is a new president in the office of USA.
现在，你知道美国办公室里有一位新总统。
[Somali] George Okech So for this reason, are you are aware that some changes will come in?
[索马里] George Okech 因此，您是否知道将会发生一些变化？
[Somali] George Okech For your information, it's not only in Kenya, but many other places, too.
[索马里] George Okech 供您参考，不仅在肯尼亚，而且在许多其他地方也是如此。
[Somali] George Okech This is beyond our control.
[索马里]乔治·奥克奇 这超出了我们的控制范围。
We don't have a final say here.
我们在这里没有最终决定权。
Are you aware of that?
你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, people are really sad, just some of them with their heads in their hands.
我的意思是，人们真的很悲伤，只是其中一些人抱着头。
Kevin Sieff is the Africa bureau chief for The Washington Post.
凯文·西耶夫 (Kevin Sieff) 是《华盛顿邮报》非洲分社社长。
He was there recording what happened for us.
他在那里记录了我们发生的事情。
Some of them had been refugees for 25, 26 years.
他们中的一些人已经成为难民 25、26 年了。
I would say probably the majority of them had been refugees for more than two decades.
我想说，他们中的大多数人可能已经成为难民二十多年了。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Kevin Sieff Yeah.
凯文·西夫 是的。
And so I mean, these are people, in many cases, who submitted their applications to go to the US 10, 12 years ago.
所以我的意思是，这些人在很多情况下是在 10、12 年前提交前往美国的申请的。
And that's how long it took them to get to this step in the process, this last step.
这就是他们到达这个过程中的这一步，最后一步所花费的时间。
What the president has said is final.
总统所说的就是最终的。
We can't question him.
我们不能质疑他。
[Somali] George Okech It is final for me.
[索马里] 乔治·奥克奇 这对我来说是最终决定。
[Somali] George Okech Neither you or us should start fighting about it.
[索马里] 乔治·奥克奇 你或我们都不应该为此争论。
[Somali] George Okech So the process now will be people will have to go back to the camp.
[索马里]乔治·奥克奇 因此，现在的流程是人们必须返回营地。
[Somali] Ira Glass The camp is the refugee camp seven hours away, where they lived.
[索马里] Ira Glass 该营地是七小时路程外的难民营，他们居住的地方。
[Somali] George Okech How would you take that?
[索马里] 乔治·奥克奇 你觉得怎么样？
Ira Glass The problem with moving back is, OK, everything.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 搬回来的问题是，好吧，一切。
But the practical part of it is daunting.
但它的实际部分却令人望而生畏。
They sold their homes and possessions, gave up their jobs.
他们卖掉了房屋和财产，放弃了工作。
And they were no longer on the books as camp residents.
他们也不再作为营地居民出现在记录中。
People running the camp weren't sure what to do with that.
营地的管理人员不知道该怎么办。
George asked the group, what are some of the problems?
乔治问小组，有哪些问题？
What are some of the problems that you are facing if you go back may I ask you?
如果你回去的话，我可以问你一些什么问题吗？
One by one, not everybody.
一个一个的，不是每个人。
One by one.
逐个。
At the camp level, yes.
在营地层面，是的。
Ira Glass He's saying he's been at the camp for 26 years.
Ira Glass：他说他在营地已经呆了 26 年了。
[Somali] Interpreter And when he was called by IOM to go for flights, he took, for shopping, clothes credits from one of the shopkeepers.
[索马里] 口译员 当国际移民组织叫他去搭乘航班时，他从一位店主那里获得了购物积分，用于购物。
And that shopkeeper is expecting him to pay back that credit.
那个店主希望他偿还这笔信用。
Kevin, just explain what's being said here.
凯文，请解释一下这里所说的内容。
So before these guys left their refugee camps, they bought a lot of clothes to bring with them for the journey.
因此，在这些人离开难民营之前，他们买了很多衣服以便随身携带。
The clothes are cheaper there and they kind of wanted to arrive already having American clothes, already having winter jackets.
那里的衣服更便宜，他们有点想到达时就已经有了美国衣服，已经有了冬季夹克。
I think there was this idea that they could come out of whatever American airport they'd arrived at and already be prepared.
我认为他们可以从到达的任何美国机场出来并做好准备。
There was a lot of pride, I think, attached to that.
我想，这里面充满了自豪感。
But, Kevin explained to me, because they didn't have any money, they bought all the clothes on credit with the idea that they were going to earn the money in America and then send it back.
但是，凯文向我解释说，因为他们没有钱，所以他们赊购了所有衣服，因为他们想在美国赚到钱，然后寄回去。
And so that was one of their biggest concerns was how are they going to pay back this huge sum of money.
因此，他们最关心的问题之一就是如何偿还这笔巨款。
They'd never considered it.
他们从来没有考虑过。
And so even if they only spent, I don't know-- I think most of them spent around $100 on clothes.
所以即使他们只花钱，我也不知道——我想他们中的大多数人在衣服上花了大约 100 美元。
That's an unimaginable amount of money to make for almost all of these people.
对于几乎所有这些人来说，这是一笔难以想象的钱。
Because working a job in the camp, how much would you make a day?
因为在营地工作，你一天能赚多少钱？
Some of the highest paid people in the camp are teachers, and they make $80 a month.
营地里一些收入最高的人是教师，他们每月挣 80 美元。
So to pay back $100-- they're really worried about having these confrontations with the people who they basically borrowed large sums of money from.
因此，为了偿还 100 美元——他们真的很担心与那些基本上是他们借了大笔钱的人发生这些对抗。
You'll have to talk to them.
你必须和他们谈谈。
Interpreter [Somali]
口译员 [索马里语]
[Somali] George Okech And it wasn't to your liking.
[索马里] George Okech 这不符合你的喜好。
[Somali] George Okech And if you promise that you are going to work hard to pay back.
[索马里] 乔治·奥克奇 如果你承诺你会努力工作来回报。
[Somali] George Okech That is something explainable to somebody.
[索马里] 乔治·奥克奇 (George Okech) 这对某人来说是可以解释的。
[Somali] George Okech But it is something that we have to swallow, though bitter.
[索马里] 乔治·奥克奇 但这是我们必须吞下的东西，尽管很苦。
George calls in another guy, a skinny guy in his 20s with a goatee.
乔治叫来了另一个人，一个 20 多岁、瘦瘦的、留着山羊胡子的人。
He used to be a headmaster of a school in the camp.
他曾是营地一所学校的校长。
He says that, while he was waiting for his papers to come to the United States, he turned down scholarships in Canada and Germany.
他说，在等待论文到达美国时，他拒绝了加拿大和德国的奖学金。
The one in Canada included a path to citizenship.
加拿大的项目包括一条获得公民身份的途径。
And he did that because he wanted to go to America.
他这样做是因为他想去美国。
After the four-month temporary ban, he asks, are we going to be allowed into the United States?
他问道，在四个月的临时禁令之后，我们会被允许进入美国吗？
George replies.
乔治回答道。
Remember I said that this is a bitter pill and there is nothing we can do about it.
请记住，我说过这是一剂苦药，我们对此无能为力。
We don't want to give you any false promise.
我们不想给您任何虚假的承诺。
We don't know what will be said and put into effect by the end of 120 days.
我们不知道 120 天结束时会说什么并付诸实施。
The boss has said wait.
老板说等等。
And once he has said wait, nobody will change it till he decides otherwise.
一旦他说等等，没有人会改变它，除非他另有决定。
[Somali] Ira Glass The boss?
[索马里] Ira Glass 老板？
He means President Trump.
他指的是特朗普总统。
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
Ira Glass This is like the worst town hall meeting ever.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这就像有史以来最糟糕的市政厅会议。
It's like each person stands up and says something awful about the situation, and then the guy in the front of the room says, yes, this is a bitter pill.
就好像每个人都站起来对这种情况说了一些可怕的话，然后房间前面的那个人说，是的，这是一剂苦药。
And there's also just no clarity for them.
而且他们也不清楚。
One of the things that struck me while I was at the transit center is that every time someone prepared to speak to the refugees, there was this false hope.
当我在中转中心时，令我印象深刻的一件事是，每次有人准备与难民交谈时，都会有这种虚假的希望。
Like, they all gathered around in these plastic chairs and waited for good news.
就像，他们都聚集在这些塑料椅子上等待好消息。
And it happened a lot.
这种事发生了很多次。
They were gathered around in a group and basically told that nothing had changed.
他们聚集在一起，基本上告诉他们什么都没有改变。
But each time before that person, like George, started speaking, there was this expectation.
但每次那个人，比如乔治，开始说话之前，都会有这样的期望。
And you could feel it that maybe they're going to say now that the suspension's been lifted.
你可以感觉到他们现在可能会说暂停已经解除。
Fact is, at the end of 120 day ban on entering the United States, for many, if not most, of these refugees, clearances and their applications will expire.
事实上，在 120 天的美国入境禁令结束后，对于其中许多（如果不是大多数）难民来说，许可及其申请将到期。
So they're going have to clear those again, which could take years.
因此，他们必须再次清理这些问题，这可能需要数年时间。
Our country does lots of things around the world that have unintended consequences, but this is the intended consequence of the travel ban.
我国在世界各地做的很多事情都产生了意想不到的后果，但这是旅行禁令的预期后果。
These refugees were stopped until the administration could toughen up the vetting process to enter the United States.
这些难民被阻止，直到政府加强进入美国的审查程序。
In the first week of the Trump administration, there was a lot of talk about dealing with illegal immigrants to the US, about building a wall, about how we were going to pay for that.
在特朗普政府上任的第一周，有很多关于处理美国非法移民、修建隔离墙以及我们将如何支付费用的讨论。
But immigrants who followed the rules, who filled out the forms, who went through the process-- they were fine.
但遵守规则、填写表格、完成整个流程的移民——他们都很好。
Not this week.
本周不行。
With the signing of this executive order, the president made the transition from cracking down on illegal immigrants to cracking down on legal ones.
随着这项行政命令的签署，总统从打击非法移民转向打击合法移民。
All the people at this camp were legal immigrants.
这个营地的所有人都是合法移民。
They'd gone through a rigorous vetting process that had taken years, had been approved for resettlement, and now they're barred from the country.
他们经历了耗时数年的严格审查程序，获得了重新安置的批准，但现在他们被禁止进入该国。
Today on our radio show, we're going to document some of the things that happened when the executive order went into effect, and we're going to talk about the way it was implemented.
今天在我们的广播节目中，我们将记录行政命令生效时发生的一些事情，我们将讨论它的实施方式。
As I'm guessing you've already heard, customs agents didn't have clear instructions.
我猜您已经听说过，海关人员没有明确的指示。
Government agencies said they weren't properly consulted.
政府机构表示，他们没有得到适当的咨询。
There was no advance warning to agencies or to travelers, so people got on planes and then had to be turned back from airports.
由于没有向相关机构或旅客发出提前警告，因此人们登上了飞机，然后又不得不从机场返回。
It was like seeing a major policy change thrown into the world like a fastball with no warning.
这就像看到一项重大政策变化像快球一样毫无预警地抛向世界。
And it's hard not to feel like, what just happened?
很难不去想，刚刚发生了什么？
Like, what was that all about?
就像，那是怎么回事？
We talk about that, too.
我们也谈论这个。
About half the country approves of the ban according to a Reuters poll.
根据路透社的一项民意调查，大约一半的国家支持这项禁令。
But if you took a poll at this transit center, I'm pretty confident the numbers would not be that high.
但如果你在这个交通中心进行民意调查，我相信这个数字不会那么高。
Kevin talked to one guy, Ahmed, who's 24.
凯文 (Kevin) 与 24 岁的艾哈迈德 (Ahmed) 进行了交谈。
Born in the refugee camp.
出生于难民营。
And until he went to the transit center, he said he'd never been outside the camp.
他说，在前往转运中心之前，他从未出过营地。
And that's really common at that camp in Dadaab.
这在达达布的营地里很常见。
Dadaab is the biggest refugee camp in the world.
达达布难民营是世界上最大的难民营。
There are 270,000 people there.
那里有27万人。
It's very sad.
这是非常悲伤的。
Can I ask you a question?
我可以问你一个问题吗？
Yeah, I'm from America.
是的，我来自美国。
It's called Fort Lauderdale.
它叫劳德代尔堡。
So how do you feel, only surrounds that city?
那么，只围绕那座城市，你感觉如何？
He's asking you, how would you feel if you never left Fort Lauderdale?
他问你，如果你从未离开劳德代尔堡，你会有什么感觉？
Yeah, I think it would be hard.
是的，我想这会很难。
And also, Fort Lauderdale is much bigger than your camp.
而且，劳德代尔堡比你的营地大得多。
So let me ask you.
那么让我问你。
When you're sitting in Ifo camp and you're trying to imagine America-- far away; it looks different-- how do you imagine it in your head?
当你坐在伊福营地并试图想象遥远的美国时；它看起来不一样——你在你的脑海中是如何想象的？
In fact, when I had started this process, I used to just dream at night that I, in America, I'm just driving a bus.
事实上，当我开始这个过程时，我常常在晚上梦见我，在美国，我只是开一辆公共汽车。
You see, just walking--
你看，只是走路——
Wait, wait.
等等，等等。
He's saying that in his dream of living in America, he's a bus driver?
他是说，在他生活在美国的梦想中，他是一名公交车司机？
Yeah.
是的。
That's the thing that he really latched onto.
这才是他真正抓住的东西。
Why do you think in the dream you were driving a bus?
为什么在梦中你会认为自己在开公共汽车？
I'm just wondering.
我只是想知道。
I like driving.
我喜欢开车。
Kevin Sieff Have you ever driven a car?
凯文·西夫 你开过车吗？
No. Kevin Sieff You've never driven a car?
没有。Kevin Sieff 你从来没有开过车？
I never drive a car here.
我从来没有在这里开车。
[INAUDIBLE] America around there.
[听不清]美国就在那里。
It case this isn't clear, these are literal dreams, like while he was asleep.
如果这还不清楚，这些都是字面上的梦，就像他睡着的时候一样。
He would be in America, driving a bus, and then Ahmed said he would wake up and, you know, he'd be back at the camp.
他会在美国，开公共汽车，然后艾哈迈德说他会醒来，你知道，他会回到营地。
So after working their way through the application process-- some of them taking a decade doing it-- Ahmed and the other Somalis find out at the 11th hour, no, they are not going to America.
因此，在完成申请流程后（其中一些人花了十年的时间），艾哈迈德和其他索马里人在第 11 个小时发现，不，他们不会去美国。
And in fact, they're going to be returning to the refugee camp where they'd given up their jobs and their homes.
事实上，他们将返回他们放弃工作和家园的难民营。
And in fact, they were now in debt for their new American winter coats and pants.
事实上，他们现在为购买新的美国冬季外套和裤子而负债累累。
I mean, I can tell you that after they heard this speech from George, within 15 minutes, everyone was in their rooms with their blankets pulled over their faces.
我的意思是，我可以告诉你，在听到乔治的演讲后，不到 15 分钟，每个人都回到了自己的房间，用毯子遮住了脸。
And I mean, it was just really, really sad.
我的意思是，这真的非常非常悲伤。
There were a lot of people who were going to the clinic, a lot of people who were refusing to eat, a lot of people who were refusing to take their medication.
有很多人去诊所，很多人拒绝吃饭，很多人拒绝服药。
There were concerns at the center that people might try to kill themselves.
该中心担心人们可能会试图自杀。
They had extra security there because they weren't sure what people were going to do, that people might kill themselves.
他们在那里有额外的安全措施，因为他们不确定人们会做什么，人们可能会自杀。
Then, six days later, as you've probably heard, a judge in Washington issued a restraining order blocking the Trump administration's travel ban.
然后，六天后，正如您可能听说的那样，华盛顿的一名法官发布了一项限制令，阻止特朗普政府的旅行禁令。
After that, the State Department issued instructions that all the refugees who were stopped now could come to the United States and they should rebook their flights to arrive here before February 17th.
此后，国务院发出指示，目前被拦截的所有难民都可以来美国，并应重新预订航班在2月17日之前抵达美国。
That applies to these Somali refugees, who, by the end of the week, had been sent back to the refugee camp but now will be returned to the transit center to fly to the United States very soon-- unless something changes.
这适用于这些索马里难民，到本周末，他们已被送回难民营，但现在将返回中转中心，很快将飞往美国——除非发生什么变化。
Ahmed told Kevin that, just a few days before the executive order was signed, in the cultural orientation class to prepare them for what it's going to be like to live in America, the instructors described the country this way.
艾哈迈德告诉凯文，就在签署行政命令的前几天，在为他们准备在美国生活的文化定向课程中，讲师这样描述了这个国家。
They said Americans, they don't discriminate people.
他们说美国人，他们不歧视人。
They usually will come-- all the people, all the nations, they don't look that you came from Somalia, that you came from Kenya, from Syria, from Iran, from Russia, they don't look, from China, they don't look.
他们通常会来——所有的人，所有的国家，他们不看你来自索马里，你来自肯尼亚，来自叙利亚，来自伊朗，来自俄罗斯，他们不看，来自中国，他们不看。
All people are seen in America.
所有的人都在美国被看到。
And the orientation, that was like three days ago.
还有迎新活动，就像三天前一样。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ira Glass Kevin asked him, how do you make sense of this executive order which does, in fact, single out people from just a few countries, including his.
艾拉·格拉斯·凯文问他，你如何理解这项行政命令，事实上，该命令只针对包括他在内的少数几个国家的人。
Ahmed said he didn't know how to make sense of it.
艾哈迈德说他不知道如何理解它。
He's just a student, he said.
他说，他只是一名学生。
He's not a politician.
他不是政治家。
So the same day as those Somalis were getting that news, here in the United States at airports around the country, there were protesters, hundreds of volunteer lawyers.
因此，就在索马里人得知这一消息的同一天，在美国各地的机场，都出现了抗议者和数百名志愿律师。
A lot of that was on TV.
其中很多都是在电视上播出的。
Maybe you saw it.
也许你看到了。
One of our producers, Zoe Chace, was at JFK Airport, terminal 4 on Saturday as customs agents stalled out, waiting for instructions from above.
周六，我们的制作人之一佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 在肯尼迪机场 4 号航站楼，海关人员在等待上面的指示。
Around the country, there was confusion over who to let in and who to keep out.
在全国范围内，对于允许谁进入和阻止谁的问题存在混乱。
It seemed like they were erring on the side just holding everybody till they heard from Washington.
他们似乎犯了一个错误，只是把所有人都扣押起来，直到他们收到华盛顿的消息。
Zoe hung out with the lawyers for a while, like Becca Heller from the International Refugee Assistance Project.
佐伊和律师们一起闲逛了一段时间，就像国际难民援助项目的贝卡·海勒一样。
Her team had been at the airport since the night before, trying to get information from Customs and Border Protection, CBP.
她的团队从前一天晚上就一直在机场，试图从海关和边境保护局 (CBP) 获取信息。
When we talked to CBP last night and asked who we could speak to, they told us to call the president.
当我们昨晚与 CBP 交谈并询问我们可以与谁交谈时，他们告诉我们给总统打电话。
Donald Trump.
唐纳德·特朗普。
Becca Heller Yes.
贝卡·海勒 是的。
They specified that the president was Donald Trump in case we weren't aware of that.
他们指定总统是唐纳德·特朗普，以防我们不知道这一点。
So a lot of our clients who were being held yesterday, Customs and Border Patrol just kept telling them, we're waiting for a call from DC to tell us what to do.
因此，昨天被拘留的许多客户，海关和边境巡逻队一直告诉他们，我们正在等待华盛顿特区的电话，告诉我们该怎么做。
Really?
真的吗？
Becca Heller And I don't know who was supposed to be on the other end of the phone.
贝卡·海勒（Becca Heller） 我不知道电话那头应该是谁。
Is Mike Pence calling them up and telling them what to do?
迈克·彭斯会打电话给他们并告诉他们该怎么做吗？
Nobody knows.
没有人知道。
All day the lawyers couldn't see their clients.
律师们一整天都见不到他们的委托人。
Zoe and the other reporters couldn't see them or talk to them.
佐伊和其他记者看不到他们或与他们交谈。
They were hidden away somewhere back in the airport.
他们被藏在机场后面的某个地方。
And there's all this mystery about what was happening with these people who had arrived from the seven banned countries.
这些来自七个被禁止国家的人身上发生的事情充满了谜团。
In the days that followed, over the course of this week, Zoe tried to answer that question about what was going on back there.
在接下来的几天里，在这一周的时间里，佐伊试图回答有关那里发生的事情的问题。
While Becca and I and the masses of other reporters and lawyers were stuck in the arrivals terminal outside the Dunkin' Donuts, here's what her client Haider was doing right at this moment.
当我和贝卡以及其他记者和律师被困在邓肯甜甜圈外面的到达航站楼时，这就是她的客户海德尔此刻正在做的事情。
He was sitting quietly among dozens of people with no phone in a little room just a few minutes walk from where we were.
他静静地坐在一个小房间里，周围有几十个人，没有手机，距离我们所在的地方只有几分钟的步行路程。
He'd started off in another terminal, trying for hours to ask the customs officer, what's going on?
他从另一个航站楼出发，花了几个小时试图询问海关官员，发生了什么事？
What's the problem?
有什么问题吗？
Relax.
放松。
Relax.
放松。
Sit down.
坐下。
Relax.
放松。
You know, my English isn't that great, so I would ask like, what's the problem?
你知道，我的英语不是很好，所以我会问，有什么问题吗？
They'd be like, sit down.
他们会说，坐下。
Relax.
放松。
I reached Haider by phone a few days after the JFK episode.
《肯尼迪国际机场》事件发生几天后，我通过电话联系了海德尔。
We spoke through an interpreter.
我们通过翻译进行了交谈。
He says when he got off the plane, he never even made it to customs.
他说，当他下了飞机时，他甚至都没能通过海关。
There were lots of people waiting around, which confused him.
周围有很多人在等待，这让他有些困惑。
And a woman led him into a little room.
一个女人把他领进了一个小房间。
[Arabic] Interpreter They still had my passport, and so I was there like four hours just sitting and waiting.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 他们还拿着我的护照，所以我就在那里坐着等待了四个小时。
Haider had been trying for three years to come to America.
海德尔三年来一直试图来美国。
He fled Iraq a year and a half ago, found his way to Sweden.
一年半前，他逃离伊拉克，来到瑞典。
His wife had worked for an American contractor in Baghdad and their lives were threatened because of it.
他的妻子曾在巴格达为一家美国承包商工作，他们的生命因此受到威胁。
She and their son have been in Houston for those three years, trying to get him a visa.
这三年来，她和儿子一直在休斯顿，试图为他拿到签证。
He got that visa to come to the United States on January 27, 2017.
他于 2017 年 1 月 27 日获得签证来到美国。
That was executive order day.
那是行政命令日。
His flight left Stockholm at 12:00 PM New York time on Friday.
他的航班于纽约时间周五中午 12:00 从斯德哥尔摩起飞。
While he was in the air, the order went into effect.
当他在空中的时候，命令就生效了。
Haider didn't know that.
海德尔并不知道这一点。
He didn't know the order existed, that things have changed.
他不知道秩序的存在，也不知道事情已经改变。
His mind was racing.
他的脑子飞速运转。
[Arabic] Interpreter I'm telling them like, I can't go back to Iraq.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 我告诉他们，我不能回到伊拉克。
I can't go back there, and I can go back to Stockholm because I gave up my right to be there once I came here.
我不能回到那里，但我可以回到斯德哥尔摩，因为我一来到这里就放弃了在那里的权利。
And I did everything, and it took three years.
我什么都做了，花了三年时间。
And my family's already living here.
我的家人已经住在这里了。
I have my wife and my son and my wife's family, and everybody's in Houston.
我有我的妻子、我的儿子和我妻子的家人，每个人都在休斯顿。
And I did this, and it took me three years.
我做到了这一点，花了我三年的时间。
Then you told me to come.
然后你叫我来。
I'm coming, and now you're telling me I can't come.
我要来了，现在你却告诉我我不能来。
He couldn't call his wife, Dunya, who was waiting in Houston, but she had a good idea why he might be late.
他无法给在休斯敦等候的妻子杜尼娅打电话，但她很清楚他为什么会迟到。
She had Fox News on Friday afternoon.
周五下午她收看福克斯新闻。
I was at work, and I just put the headphones in my ear, and I was listening.
我当时正在工作，我就把耳机戴在耳边，听着。
And I just broke down when I heard the news.
当我听到这个消息时我简直崩溃了。
I just left.
我刚刚离开。
I couldn't stay in my place.
我不能留在我的地方。
You were crying.
你在哭。
Dunya Yeah.
杜尼亚 是的。
It was a really hard time for me.
这对我来说真的是一段艰难的时光。
And what were you scared of?
你害怕什么？
Dunya I'm scared because if they let him go, all the three years is going to be returned again, you know?
Dunya 我很害怕，因为如果他们放了他，三年的时间都会重新回来，你知道吗？
You'll have to just do the whole three years over, the whole vetting process.
你必须完成整个三年的整个审查过程。
Yeah.
是的。
Zoe Chace Back at the airport, Haider was stood up against a wall and searched.
佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 回到机场后，海德尔靠墙站起来接受搜查。
They put him in handcuffs.
他们给他戴上手铐。
They took him to a car.
他们带他上了车。
[Arabic] Interpreter Like, I don't know.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 就像，我不知道。
Like, I can't-- I can't describe it.
就像，我不能——我无法描述它。
It was just-- you're just there.
只是——你就在那里。
This is the first time in my life somebody has ever put handcuffs on me-- and without reason, too.
这是我一生中第一次有人给我戴上手铐——而且也是毫无理由的。
The first time in my life.
我一生中第一次。
In the car was an Iranian and another Iraqi also in handcuffs.
车里有一名伊朗人和另一名也戴着手铐的伊拉克人。
They drove to terminal 4, the terminal where the lawyers and I were.
他们开车前往 4 号航站楼，也就是我和律师所在的航站楼。
He got taken into another room.
他被带进了另一个房间。
CBP took the handcuffs off and told them why they were there.
美国海关和边境保护局解开了手铐，并告诉他们为什么在那里。
[Arabic] Interpreter One of the officers was telling us that this is what Trump said.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 一名官员告诉我们，特朗普是这么说的。
If you're from this country, if you're from Iraq, and even if you have a visa and everything, you're still going to be sent back to your country.
如果你来自这个国家，如果你来自伊拉克，即使你有签证和一切，你仍然会被送回你的国家。
Then I was saying, I was in Sweden before this.
然后我说，在此之前我在瑞典。
I had a visa there and everything.
我在那里有签证等等。
You can't send me back to Iraq because the second I get set back there, I'm going to die.
你不能把我送回伊拉克，因为一旦我回到那里，我就会死。
And what did they say to you when you said that?
当你这么说时，他们对你说了什么？
[Arabic] Interpreter He said, I can't do anything for you.
[阿拉伯语] 翻译 他说，我不能为你做任何事。
[Arabic] Interpreter I was just at that point that I just went and I sat.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 我当时就去坐了。
And I was just like, I don't know if we were all allowed a phone call or whatever, but once they kept telling you and telling you you're going to go back, I was almost defeated.
我当时想，我不知道我们是否都可以打电话或其他什么，但一旦他们不断告诉你你要回去，我几乎被打败了。
So I was like, you have to let me call my wife and let her know what's happening because she doesn't know.
所以我想，你必须让我打电话给我的妻子，让她知道发生了什么事，因为她不知道。
So I have to let her know.
所以我必须让她知道。
And then they just gave me the phone to call.
然后他们就给了我电话。
He called me at 1 o'clock.
他1点钟给我打电话。
He said, they will send me back, so don't be sad.
他说，他们会送我回去的，所以别伤心。
And he said, I can't go back to Sweden, so they will send me to Baghdad.
他说，我不能回瑞典，所以他们会把我送到巴格达。
And I couldn't talk.
我无法说话。
And my sister called Julie.
我姐姐叫朱莉。
She's my lawyer.
她是我的律师。
And she said, just tell him, don't sign anything.
她说，只要告诉他，不要签署任何东西。
Yes, I am here.
是的，我在这里。
We have a lot of people here waiting for him.
我们这里有很多人在等他。
Julie, the lawyer in JFK, keeps getting calls from Dunya's sister over the next few hours.
在接下来的几个小时里，肯尼迪机场的律师朱莉不断接到杜尼亚姐姐的电话。
She keeps her earbuds permanently in her ears and periodically shouts things out, like I am at the airport ready to assist.
她将耳塞永久地戴在耳朵上，并定期大声喊叫，就像我在机场准备提供帮助一样。
Any word on your client?
你的客户有什么消息吗？
Julie Unfortunately no. Last I was told is we are waiting for the Secretary of State and Secretary of Homeland Security's signature.
朱莉不幸的是没有。最后我被告知我们正在等待国务卿和国土安全部长的签字。
I don't think we have a Secretary of State.
我认为我们没有国务卿。
Tell me about it.
告诉我吧。
Zoe Chace The customs official comes out at one point into the crowd of lawyers.
佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 海关官员一度出现在律师人群中。
She says, come on back, but only two congressmen, Nadler of the 10th District of New York and Velazquez of the 7th, are allowed to follow her.
她说，回来吧，但只有纽约第十选区的纳德勒和第七选区的委拉斯开兹两名国会议员被允许跟随她。
It says "no lawyers." See if you can read what they're trying to get him to sign.
上面写着“没有律师”。看看你是否能读懂他们试图让他签署的内容。
Haider told me he stayed in that room at the terminal for another 10 hours.
海德尔告诉我，他在航站楼的那个房间里又呆了 10 个小时。
At some point, they brought him chicken and biscuits.
在某个时候，他们给他带来了鸡肉和饼干。
One by one, he watched people leave.
他看着人们一一离开。
Haider was not interrogated, like was reported at other airports with other people who were held up.
海德尔没有受到审讯，就像其他机场报道的其他被扣留的人一样。
His wife waited, cried, texted the lawyers.
他的妻子等待着，哭着，给律师发短信。
We asked the White House to help us understand what was happening.
我们请求白宫帮助我们了解正在发生的事情。
We got no response.
我们没有得到回应。
But I read The Washington Post.
但我读了《华盛顿邮报》。
Here's what the administration told reporters on a conference call.
以下是政府在电话会议上向记者透露的内容。
The news media needs to calm down their, quote, "false, misleading, inaccurate, hyperventilating coverage" of the, quote, "fractional, marginal, minuscule percentage of international travelers who have simply been," as the reporter puts it, "set aside for further questioning for a couple hours on their way into the greatest country in the world." And OK, sure, a couple hours.
新闻媒体需要冷静下来，引用“虚假、误导性、不准确、过度换气的报道”，正如记者所说，“一小部分、边际的、极小的国际旅行者”，“在进入世界上最伟大的国家的途中，留出几个小时接受进一步的询问。”好吧，当然，几个小时。
Even 10 hours.
甚至10个小时。
Even 24 hours is not a big deal if you know what happens at the end-- that you get to come take refuge in America like you were promised.
如果你知道最后会发生什么，即使 24 小时也没什么大不了的——你可以像你承诺的那样来美国避难。
It is a big deal if you spend 10 hours worrying you're going to be flown off to a place where you're going to be killed, and your wife spends those hours thinking she'll never see you again.
如果你花了 10 个小时担心自己会被飞到一个你会被杀的地方，而你的妻子花了这 10 个小时以为她再也见不到你了，那就是一件大事了。
6:30 PM, 22 hours later, Haider walks out into the arrivals area with everybody waiting.
22 小时后，下午 6:30，海德尔走进到达区，所有人都在等待。
According to his lawyer Julie, five minutes after being told no, no, no, he cannot leave, apparently CBP suddenly changed its mind.
据他的律师朱莉说，在被告知“不，不，不，他不能离开”五分钟后，美国海关与边境保护局显然突然改变了主意。
They got a phone call and then they said, he can go.
他们接到电话后说，他可以走了。
His lawyers think it's because they filed a habeas corpus suit, but really we don't know.
他的律师认为这是因为他们提起了人身保护令诉讼，但我们真的不知道。
We might never know.
我们可能永远不会知道。
He came out with no documentation of what happened, which is extremely unusual.
他出来时没有记录所发生的事情，这是极其不寻常的。
And so Haider is here in America with Dunya.
海德尔和杜尼亚来到了美国。
The customs officials were nice about it when they let him go.
海关官员放他走时态度很好。
[Arabic] Interpreter Then after, they came to me and they said, OK, we finished everything.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 然后，他们来找我，他们说，好吧，我们完成了一切。
And you can go to Dunya now.
现在你可以去俗世了。
[Arabic] Interpreter I mean, to get out there and to see all of these people that stayed up this late, and they left their homes and their jobs and everything, and they're here for the sole purpose of standing with us.
[阿拉伯语] 口译员 我的意思是，走出去看看所有这些熬夜的人，他们离开了自己的家、工作和一切，他们来到这里的唯一目的就是与我们站在一起。
It's so beautiful.
真是太漂亮了。
It's reported later that there was basically no prep on the government's part for how to deal with this.
后来有报道称，政府对于如何应对这一问题基本上没有任何准备。
Apparently, this executive order was signed after very little consultation with Homeland Security or the State Department or the Department of Justice-- the guys in charge of this sort of thing.
显然，这项行政命令是在与负责此类事务的国土安全部、国务院或司法部极少协商后签署的。
As this week went on, the more that came out, the more confused it sounded.
随着这周的过去，出现的信息越多，听起来就越混乱。
Like the green card holders.
就像绿卡持有者一样。
At first, it seemed like the green card holders were banned.
起初，绿卡持有者似乎被禁止了。
Homeland Security, late Friday night, said, no, not green card holders.
国土安全部周五深夜表示，不，不是绿卡持有者。
Then the White House overruled Homeland Security, like, green card holders, still out, basically.
然后白宫否决了国土安全部的决定，绿卡持有者基本上仍然被排除在外。
On Sunday, the White House said, OK, fine, Homeland Security, let's just do some extra screening of the green card holders.
周日，白宫说，好吧，国土安全部，让我们对绿卡持有者进行一些额外的筛查。
On Tuesday, the new Secretary of Homeland Security said the rollout went smoothly.
周二，新任国土安全部部长表示，部署进展顺利。
On Thursday, the White House said, never mind.
周四，白宫表示，没关系。
No additional screening for green card holders.
无需对绿卡持有者进行额外筛选。
Also this week, Congress requested an internal investigation into the Department of Homeland Security, into the way this policy got rolled out.
同样在本周，国会要求对国土安全部进行内部调查，调查这项政策的实施方式。
Zoe Chace.
佐伊·查斯。
Haider's case, by the way-- a few hours after Haider's release was the case that led a New York judge to issue the first order halting deportations under the president's ban.
顺便说一下，海德尔案——海德尔被释放几小时后，纽约法官就该案发布了第一个命令，停止根据总统禁令进行驱逐出境。
Others obviously followed in the days after.
接下来的几天里，其他人显然也纷纷效仿。
Act Two, Heavy Vetting.
第二幕，严格审查。
So the whole premise of the executive order is that we're going to stop all refugees and we're going to stop travelers from seven countries for a few months because we need to overhaul the way that we screen people before they come into the United States.
因此，行政命令的整个前提是，我们将阻止所有难民，我们将阻止来自七个国家的旅行者几个月，因为我们需要彻底改革在人们进入美国之前对其进行筛查的方式。
Well, I talked to somebody who does that screening.
嗯，我和负责筛查的人谈过。
He's on the staff of the United States Citizen and Immigration Services, USCIS.
他是美国公民及移民服务局 (USCIS) 的工作人员。
He's an interviewer.
他是一位采访者。
Flies to Africa and to the Mideast.
飞往非洲和中东。
He's interviewed Africans from all seven countries that we have temporarily banned.
他采访了来自我们暂时禁止的所有七个国家的非洲人。
Sits with people for hours, drilling them on the details of their stories, looking for inconsistencies and lies.
与人们坐在一起几个小时，向他们钻研故事的细节，寻找不一致和谎言。
He asked that we not use his name or put his voice here on the radio, so I'm going to call him Bob.
他要求我们不要使用他的名字或把他的声音放在广播中，所以我要叫他鲍勃。
We have an actor, Scott Shepherd, saying what he said here on the air.
我们有一位演员斯科特·谢泼德在广播中讲述了他所说的话。
Bob said that when he and his colleagues heard about the executive order, the reaction was mostly shock and sadness.
鲍勃说，当他和他的同事听到这项行政命令时，反应大多是震惊和悲伤。
A few dozen of them went out for drinks together, and some people cried then.
几十个人一起出去喝酒，当时有人哭了。
Can I ask, did you cry?
我能问一下，你哭了吗？
Bob On my own?
鲍勃 就我一个人吗？
Yes.
是的。
In front of my friends?
当着我朋友的面？
No.
不。
And so the news came down that this executive order came down, and so what happens to your work?
因此，有消息称这项行政命令已被撤销，那么您的工作会发生什么情况？
What are you doing now?
你在干什么？
When it came down, we basically came to a screeching halt.
当它下来时，我们基本上就戛然而止了。
Most of us were getting on airplanes, and so we just literally had no work to do.
我们大多数人都坐飞机，所以我们实际上没有工作可做。
So now we're all-- most likely, it looks like we're going to redeploy to the southern border, where we can do credible fear work.
所以现在我们——最有可能的是，我们将重新部署到南部边境，在那里我们可以开展可信的恐惧工作。
I'm not sure if you're--
我不确定你是否——
Do you mean you'll be doing with the border with Mexico, where you'll be doing credible fear work?
你的意思是你将在墨西哥边境做可信的恐惧工作吗？
That's people who want asylum and you have to interview them to figure out if they have a credible fear of getting killed?
这些人想要庇护，你必须采访他们，以确定他们是否确实担心被杀？
Right, right.
对，对。
Ira Glass Now, the whole premise for this executive order is that our ways of screening people to come into this country from these particular countries is not strong enough, and we're not doing a good enough job.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 现在，这项行政命令的整个前提是，我们筛选从这些特定国家进入这个国家的人的方式不够强大，而且我们做得不够好。
And the president wants to put in something that he's calling extreme vetting.
总统想要实施他所谓的“极端审查”。
What do you think of that idea?
你觉得这个主意怎么样？
I find it personally offensive because it implies that those of us who vet refugees weren't doing extreme vetting before, that the work that I do as a refugee officer wasn't adequate to begin with.
我觉得这对我个人来说是一种冒犯，因为这意味着我们这些审查难民的人以前没有进行过严格的审查，而我作为难民官员所做的工作一开始就不够。
And I take the security of our country as my first priority.
我把国家的安全作为我的首要任务。
So I would never let someone in who I was suspicious of.
所以我绝对不会让我怀疑的人进来。
Bob and I talked for a while about the vetting procedures that are in place now.
鲍勃和我讨论了现在实行的审查程序。
And they are considerable.
而且它们的数量相当可观。
People are fingerprinted.
人们被采集指纹。
We take biometric data.
我们获取生物识别数据。
In many countries, there are iris scans.
在许多国家，都有虹膜扫描。
Security checks are run by the FBI, the CIA, the Department of Defense, the National Security Agency, the National Counterterrorism Center, and sometimes others.
安全检查由联邦调查局、中央情报局、国防部、国家安全局、国家反恐中心以及有时其他机构负责。
They look at criminal databases and terrorism watch lists.
他们查看犯罪数据库和恐怖主义观察名单。
They check family members' affiliations.
他们检查家庭成员的关系。
They'll call contacts on people's smartphones.
他们会呼叫人们智能手机上的联系人。
They have document verification labs.
他们有文件验证实验室。
They compare the biometric information.
他们比较生物识别信息。
And of course, they check people's social media accounts.
当然，他们还会检查人们的社交媒体帐户。
The interviews Bob does are face to face.
鲍勃进行的采访是面对面的。
They take hours.
他们需要几个小时。
A lawyer that I talked to who advocates for refugees seeking asylum, Laura Finkbeiner from the International Refugee Assistance Project, emphasized how these interviews are customized for each person.
我采访过一位倡导寻求庇护的难民的律师，来自国际难民援助项目的劳拉·芬克贝纳 (Laura Finkbeiner)，她强调了这些访谈是如何针对每个人量身定制的。
So they have a bunch of screening questions that they've particularly crafted, and they do this based on country.
因此，他们有很多专门设计的筛选问题，并且是根据国家/地区进行的。
So they know if you're from a certain area at a certain time, there were certain groups active there.
所以他们知道如果你在某个时间来自某个地区，那里就有某些团体活跃。
So they're checking to see-- they're asking you questions that are based specifically on your story, and they're making sure that what you're saying is credible, so it's consistent with what they know about the area at that given time.
所以他们会检查——他们会根据你的故事向你提出问题，并确保你所说的是可信的，因此这与他们在特定时间对该地区的了解是一致的。
And so we are looking for discrepancies in that information.
因此，我们正在寻找这些信息中的差异。
I asked Bob about this.
我向鲍勃询问了此事。
Bob Like, if those stories don't match, explain to me why not.
鲍勃：如果这些故事不相符，请向我解释为什么不相符。
And so basically, are you just running them through a million little details, trying to trip them up?
基本上，你只是让他们经历一百万个小细节，试图让他们犯错吗？
For the most part, yeah.
在大多数情况下，是的。
Ira Glass And this has become an incredibly politicized question, but I hope you can answer it honestly.
Ira Glass：这已经成为一个极其政治化的问题，但我希望你能诚实地回答它。
Are there times in your job where you feel like, oh, I really can't tell about this person and I wish I had more tools?
在你的工作中，是否有时你会觉得，哦，我真的无法讲述这个人，我希望我有更多的工具？
I wish there was more I could do to figure this out better?
我希望我能做更多的事情来更好地解决这个问题？
There are times that, because it's impossible to know about some people for whatever reason.
有时会这样，因为无论出于何种原因都不可能了解某些人。
But that's why we have a process.
但这就是为什么我们有一个流程。
We're not letting people in that we have question marks about.
我们不会让那些我们有疑问的人进来。
Oh.
哦。
You're saying, if you can't figure it out, then they just don't get in.
你是说，如果你无法弄清楚，那么他们就不会进入。
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass And all this brings us to something that is not just Bob's opinion.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 所有这些都让我们了解到一些不仅仅是鲍勃的观点。
Many people believe that the current vetting system is effective.
许多人认为现行的审批制度是有效的。
They'll tell you our current system's working.
他们会告诉您我们当前的系统正在运行。
And as for the rare cases where somebody gets through, they'll say no system's perfect.
至于有人通过的极少数情况，他们会说没有一个系统是完美的。
No system can be perfect.
没有一个系统是完美的。
We need studying learned from those cases.
我们需要从这些案例中学习。
One of the people who said the system is effective to me most fiercely this week was Kirk Johnson.
柯克·约翰逊是本周对我说该系统最有效的人之一。
He's been on our program before.
他以前参加过我们的节目。
He worked for USAID in Iraq.
他在伊拉克为美国国际开发署工作。
And then when he came back to this country, he started the List Project to help interpreters and other Iraqis and Afghans who worked with the US overseas, whose lives were threatened because of it, move to this country.
然后当他回到这个国家时，他启动了“名单项目”，帮助翻译人员以及其他在美国海外工作的伊拉克人和阿富汗人，他们的生命因此受到威胁，搬到这个国家。
In that job, he's become very familiar with how hard it can be to get somebody into the US, even if they risk their lives helping American troops.
在这份工作中，他非常熟悉让某人进入美国是多么困难，即使他们冒着生命危险帮助美国军队。
He said it's tough.
他说这很难。
I'm really in this twilight zone because I'm seeing the President of the United States and his advisers try to draft policy to address a problem that doesn't exist.
我确实处于这个模糊地带，因为我看到美国总统和他的顾问试图起草政策来解决一个不存在的问题。
And what problem is that?
那是什么问题？
Kirk Johnson Well, he campaigned by saying that we're not vetting these people.
柯克·约翰逊：好吧，他在竞选时说我们不会审查这些人。
And the only way you can say that is if you don't know anything about how people are vetted.
你能这么说的唯一方法是，如果你对人们的审查方式一无所知。
And you know, Trump's a busy guy.
你知道，特朗普是个大忙人。
I don't expect him to sit down and learn the two-year vetting process in place by the US Refugee Admissions Program, but I sure as hell expect Steve Bannon or Steve Miller or any of the Steves who drafted this thing to just spend a few minutes and find out what is already in place.
我不指望他坐下来了解美国难民准入计划实施的两年审查程序，但我确实希望史蒂夫·班农或史蒂夫·米勒或任何起草此文件的史蒂夫家族花几分钟时间了解已经到位的内容。
And I know for a fact that they did not go to the State Department's Refugee Processing people, the people that have been doing this for decades-- they never even got a basic briefing as to what currently exists.
我知道一个事实，他们没有去找国务院难民处理人员，这些人几十年来一直在这样做——他们甚至从未得到过关于目前存在的情况的基本简报。
How do you know that they didn't consult with the State Department?
你怎么知道他们没有咨询国务院？
I was on the phone with the State Department minutes before he signed it, asking whether or not these people that I was pushing were going to be able to board a plane that night.
在他签署协议前几分钟，我正在与国务院通电话，询问我推动的这些人当晚是否能够登机。
And this is in which office of the State Department?
这是在国务院的哪个办公室？
In the Population, Refugees, and Migration bureau.
在人口、难民和移民局。
And that's who manages these programs to figure out who can come into the country?
谁来管理这些计划来确定谁可以进入这个国家？
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass Wait.
艾拉·格拉斯等等。
And so you were on the phone with this person while the signing was happening?
所以在签字时你正在和这个人通电话？
It was about three or four minutes beforehand, I reached out to this official at the State Department to say what's going to happen when she shows up to the airport, and he didn't know.
大约提前三四分钟，我联系了国务院的这位官员，询问她到达机场时会发生什么，但他不知道。
And I said, how can you not know?
我说，你怎么会不知道呢？
Haven't they been coming and working this all out with you?
他们不是来和你一起解决这一切吗？
And there was silence, and I pushed him.
周围一片寂静，我推了他一把。
And he said, well, what do you want me to say?
他说，好吧，你想让我说什么？
I'm sitting here refreshing the White House website just like you are.
我和你们一样坐在这里刷新白宫网站。
Looking for the text of the executive order.
寻找行政命令的文本。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass We reached out to the person that Kirk talked to at the Population, Refugees, and Migration bureau to confirm this.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我们联系了柯克在人口、难民和移民局交谈过的人，以证实这一点。
He hung up on us.
他挂断了我们的电话。
Of course, not everybody agrees with Kirk Johnson.
当然，并不是所有人都同意柯克·约翰逊的观点。
We reached out to two experts who have questions about how well our current system works and we asked them what's missing.
我们联系了两位对我们当前系统的运行情况有疑问的专家，并询问他们缺少什么。
How can we vet better?
我们怎样才能更好地审查？
Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies, which generally argues for less immigration, said we could ask more questions during the vetting process to figure out the ideology of applicants.
移民研究中心的马克·克里科里安（Mark Krikorian）普遍主张减少移民，他表示我们可以在审查过程中提出更多问题，以了解申请人的意识形态。
Ask if they agree with American values.
询问他们是否同意美国价值观。
But that was the only specific thing that he could point to.
但这是他唯一能指出的具体事情。
Tim Kane, who heads up immigration studies at the Hoover Institution-- not the former vice presidential candidate-- had no specific things he thought that we should add to the vetting process.
胡佛研究所移民研究负责人蒂姆·凯恩（Tim Kane）（不是前副总统候选人）没有认为我们应该在审查过程中添加任何具体内容。
He thinks it's thorough.
他认为这很彻底。
Instead, he questioned whether we can effectively screen people at all from places like Syria and Somalia.
相反，他质疑我们是否能够有效地筛查来自叙利亚和索马里等地的人。
I don't know if it's possible to vet in a failed state.
我不知道是否可以在失败状态下进行审查。
What do you do to vet people in a failed state where there's no government to serve as a source of documentation?
在没有政府作为文件来源的失败州，你会采取什么措施来审查人们？
And I think the right answer might be, it's impossible.
我认为正确的答案可能是，这是不可能的。
Mark Krikorian at the Center for Immigration Studies went a little further on the same point.
移民研究中心的马克·克里科里安（Mark Krikorian）在同一观点上走得更远。
I mean, we run people's names through the databases that we have, but the state simply doesn't exist in those places.
我的意思是，我们通过我们拥有的数据库运行人们的名字，但这些地方根本不存在国家。
What are we going to do, run somebody's fingerprints through the Mogadishu DMV?
我们要做什么，通过摩加迪沙车管所采集某人的指纹？
Bob, the interviewer that I talked to at USCIS, says that that's a naive picture of our security databases and the role they play in screening and the kind of information in them.
我在美国公民及移民服务局采访过的面试官鲍勃说，这是对我们的安全数据库及其在筛选中所扮演的角色以及其中的信息类型的幼稚描述。
And he said, in fact, Syrians, though they come from a failed state, are among the best-documented refugees.
他说，事实上，叙利亚人虽然来自一个失败的国家，但却是记录最齐全的难民之一。
They almost always have documentation with them, he said.
他说，他们几乎总是随身携带文件。
Like these things called family books, which are government-issued documentation of entire families.
就像这些被称为家庭簿的东西，它们是政府颁发的整个家庭的文件。
None of the people we talked to this week could tell us exactly what was meant by the phrase extreme vetting.
本周与我们交谈的人都无法准确告诉我们“极端审查”一词的含义。
National security experts say that it's not a term that's been used in their world.
国家安全专家表示，这个术语在他们的世界中还没有使用过。
Both Kane at the Hoover Institution and Krikorian at the Center for Immigration Studies said the phrase extreme vetting seems like something that Donald Trump just made up.
胡佛研究所的凯恩和移民研究中心的克里科里安都表示，“极端审查”一词似乎是唐纳德·特朗普刚刚编造的。
It's a marketing term, Kane said.
凯恩说，这是一个营销术语。
And the moment Donald Trump invented it seems to have been last summer, right after the attack in Nice, France.
唐纳德·特朗普发明它的那一刻似乎是在去年夏天，就在法国尼斯袭击事件之后。
This is then-candidate Donald Trump on Fox News about four hours after the attack.
这是袭击事件发生大约四个小时后，当时的候选人唐纳德·特朗普在福克斯新闻上的讲话。
Greta Van Susteren asked him what he'd be doing in this moment if he were president.
格蕾塔·范·苏斯特伦 (Greta Van Susteren) 问他，如果他是总统，此刻他会做什么。
Well, I'd be making it very, very hard for people to come into our country, for one thing, from terrorist areas.
嗯，一方面，我会让来自恐怖分子地区的人们很难进入我们的国家。
I would be so extreme in terms of documentation.
我在文档方面会如此极端。
And Obama's allowing a lot of people that come in.
奥巴马允许很多人进来。
We have no idea who they are.
我们不知道他们是谁。
They are from Syria, maybe, but they have no paperwork.
他们可能来自叙利亚，但他们没有任何证件。
Many times they don't have documentation proper.
很多时候他们没有适当的文档。
I would do extreme vetting.
我会进行极端的审查。
I would call it extreme vetting, too.
我也将其称为极端审查。
Do you think the president just doesn't know what he's talking about when he says we need stronger vetting?
当总统说我们需要加强审查时，你是否认为他只是不知道自己在说什么？
I know he doesn't know what he's talking about when he says that.
我知道他说这些的时候并不知道自己在说什么。
Again, this is Bob, who works interviewing refugee applicants.
这是鲍勃，他负责面试难民申请者。
He says he, and he thinks most of his coworkers, are open to anything that could make the vetting process better.
他说，他以及他的大多数同事都对任何可以改善审查过程的事情持开放态度。
What he has a problem with is stopping the flow of refugees for four months while the administration figures it out.
他的问题是，在政府解决问题期间，阻止难民流动四个月。
Nobody has a problem with improving the security checks-- the process that we have to protect the United States.
没有人对改进安全检查有异议——这是我们必须保护美国的过程。
Nobody is going to be complaining with that.
没有人会对此抱怨。
What I do have a problem with is reducing the cap of refugees that we take into the United States in the middle of maybe the greatest humanitarian crisis of my lifetime, the crisis in Syria.
我真正遇到的问题是，在我一生中最严重的人道主义危机——叙利亚危机——期间，减少我们接收进入美国的难民的上限。
It's millions of people that are in need, living in camps around the world, and I feel like this is not the time to shut them out without a valid reason.
世界各地有数百万人生活在难民营中，需要帮助，我觉得现在不是无正当理由将他们拒之门外的时候。
Me, as an American, I feel like this is something we value, that we help the needy, that we stand up to protect people who need protection, and that's something that we're not doing.
我，作为一个美国人，我觉得这是我们所重视的事情，我们帮助有需要的人，我们站起来保护需要保护的人，但我们没有这样做。
Coming up, we take apart one key sentence in the executive order and we ask, is this really true?
接下来，我们拆开行政命令中的一个关键句子，我们会问，这是真的吗？
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, It's Working Out Very Nicely.
今天在我们的节目中，一切进展顺利。
We got that title from something the president said about the rollout of his executive order, the temporary ban on travel and resettlement.
我们从总统关于推出行政命令、临时旅行和重新安置禁令的言论中得到了这个标题。
It's working out very nicely.
效果非常好。
You see it at the airports.
你在机场就能看到它。
You see it all over.
你看到这一切了。
It's working out very nicely.
效果非常好。
And we're going to have a very, very--
我们将会有一个非常非常——
A senior administration official told reporters on Sunday, quote, "it really is a massive success story in terms of implementation on every single level." White House aide Stephen Miller said later in the week, quote, "it is hard to envision a smoother rollout."
一位高级政府官员周日告诉记者，“从各个层面的实施来看，这确实是一个巨大的成功故事。”白宫助手斯蒂芬·米勒在本周晚些时候表示，“很难想象会有更顺利的推出。”
So in the first half of our radio program today, we documented what happened during some of that smooth rollout.
因此，在今天的广播节目的前半部分，我们记录了在顺利推出期间发生的事情。
In this half, we're going to be talking more about what we should make of its substance.
在这一部分中，我们将更多地讨论我们应该如何理解它的实质内容。
And that brings us to Act Three.
接下来我们进入第三幕。
Act Three, Statement of Purpose.
第三幕，目的陈述。
So the very first section of President Trump's executive order is called Purpose.
因此，特朗普总统行政命令的第一部分称为目的。
It's the premise on which the order is based.
这是订单所依据的前提。
It's the why of the whole thing.
这就是整件事的原因。
The Purpose section starts by saying, quote, "the visa issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States." OK.
目的部分首先引用了一句话：“签证签发流程在发现与恐怖分子有联系的个人并阻止他们进入美国方面发挥着至关重要的作用。”好的。
No debate there.
那里没有争论。
That is true.
确实如此。
It's the next sentence that caught the eye of one of our producers, Nancy Updike.
下一句话引起了我们的制作人之一南希·厄普代克的注意。
That sentence reads, quote, "perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans." That sounds all right-- just like a quick summary of 9/11.
引用这句话说，“也许没有什么比 2001 年 9 月 11 日的恐怖袭击更明显的了，当时国务院的政策阻止领事官员适当审查 19 名外国人中的几人的签证申请，这些人后来谋杀了近 3,000 名美国人。”听起来不错——就像对 9/11 事件的快速总结一样。
But Nancy had a couple questions.
但南希有几个问题。
Here she is.
她在这里。
The whole reason there was a commission after 9/11 that put out a 585-page report about 9/11 was to be precise and thorough about what on Earth went wrong.
9/11 事件后，有一个委员会发布了一份长达 585 页的关于 9/11 事件的报告，其全部原因是为了准确、彻底地了解地球上到底出了什么问题。
And if we're going to base a sea change in United States immigration policy on a one-line summary of 9/11, I want to look at whether we're getting it right.
如果我们要根据 9/11 事件的一行摘要来彻底改变美国移民政策，我想看看我们的做法是否正确。
I called the senior counsel for the 9/11 Commission report, Susan Ginsburg.
我给 9/11 委员会报告的高级顾问苏珊·金斯伯格 (Susan Ginsburg) 打电话。
She wasn't just a staff member for the commission.
她不仅仅是该委员会的一名工作人员。
She was team leader of the group that was focused on the visa process and border controls and how the terrorists were permitted into the country, because there's no disputing that the 9/11 hijackers came into the United States with approved visas.
她是负责签证流程和边境管制以及如何允许恐怖分子进入美国的小组组长，因为毫无疑问，9/11 劫机者是通过批准的签证进入美国的。
Susan and her group, in fact, wrote a whole separate 241-page report just about immigration, border control, and terrorist travel.
事实上，苏珊和她的团队专门写了一份长达 241 页的独立报告，内容涉及移民、边境管制和恐怖分子旅行。
She also worked, before 9/11, for the law enforcement division of the Treasury Department, which at the time controlled customs, ATF, and the Secret Service.
9/11 之前，她还曾在财政部执法部门工作，该部门当时控制着海关、烟酒枪械管理局和特勤局。
She also worked on counterterrorism initiatives with Richard Clarke, who led counterterrorism efforts under Presidents Bush and Clinton.
她还与理查德·克拉克（Richard Clarke）一起致力于反恐倡议，后者在布什总统和克林顿总统领导下领导了反恐工作。
Susan Ginsburg is not a softy.
苏珊·金斯伯格并不是一个软弱的人。
She asked me not to record her, but she said I could quote her if I cleared the quotes with her first.
她要求我不要给她录音，但她说如果我先和她清除引语，我就可以引用她的话。
Here's what she said.
这是她说的。
I asked her if, in her view, it's true, as it says in the executive order that, quote, "State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visas," end quote.
我问她，在她看来，这是否属实，正如行政命令中所说，“国务院的政策阻止领事官员适当审查签证”，引用结束。
Susan said, there is truth in that, but it's not the whole truth.
苏珊说，这话有道理，但并不是全部事实。
She said it's, quote, "distorted and arbitrary to focus solely on the visa process if you want to understand how the 9/11 hijackers were able to get into America," end quote.
她说，“如果你想了解 9/11 劫机者是如何进入美国的，那么仅仅关注签证流程是扭曲和武断的”。
Why?
为什么？
Because, she said, the problem was so much bigger than that.
她说，因为问题远比这严重得多。
Before 9/11, the entire government from the president on down did not see the country's borders or its visa system as the front line of counterterrorism as we do now.
9/11之前，从总统到下的整个政府并没有像我们现在那样将国家边界或其签证系统视为反恐前线。
The problem wasn't so much a matter of this or that policy.
问题不在于这个或那个政策。
It was a whole mindset, a pre-9/11 mindset that was operating at all levels of government.
这是一种整体心态，一种 9/11 之前的心态，在各级政府中运作。
Before 9/11, our consular offices in other countries weren't funded or staffed to do serious scrutiny of visa applicants.
9/11 之前，我们在其他国家的领事馆没有资金或人员来对签证申请人进行严格审查。
Applicants were supposed to be interviewed face to face, but a lot of times they just weren't because the word from above was that interviews were too time consuming.
申请人本来应该接受面对面的面试，但很多时候他们并没有接受，因为上面说面试太耗时了。
They slowed everything down.
他们放慢了一切。
That might be an example of one of the State Department policies the Trump administration had in mind when it wrote in the executive order that State Department policy prevented us from properly scrutinizing visas.
这可能是特朗普政府在行政命令中写道国务院政策阻止我们适当审查签证时所考虑的国务院政策之一。
There was a terrorist watch list before 9/11 called TIPOFF, and consular officials would check names against it.
9/11 之前有一个名为 TIPOFF 的恐怖分子观察名单，领事官员会根据名单检查名单。
But the list was frighteningly incomplete.
但这份清单极其不完整。
The FBI and CIA weren't even sharing a lot of information with each other before 9/11, let alone making it available to junior foreign service officers working for the State Department overseas.
在 9/11 事件之前，联邦调查局和中央情报局甚至没有相互共享大量信息，更不用说向在海外为国务院工作的初级外交官员提供这些信息了。
Customs and border agents also lacked funding and support to do real screening.
海关和边境人员也缺乏进行真正筛查的资金和支持。
Susan said, quote, "counterterrorism at the time was viewed as the purview of specialists.
苏珊说，“当时反恐被视为专家的职权范围。
There was no government-wide strategic focus on counterterrorism," end quote.
政府范围内没有反恐战略重点。”引用结束语。
What that meant in practice with visa applications before 9/11 was that we were on the lookout for people who seemed like they might want to use a student or visitor visa to come to the US and then just stay in the country even after the visa expired because they wanted to live here.
这在 9/11 之前的签证申请实践中意味着，我们正在寻找那些似乎可能想使用学生或访客签证来美国，然后即使在签证过期后也留在美国的人，因为他们想住在这里。
Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabian.
大多数 9/11 劫机者是沙特阿拉伯人。
Saudis at the time weren't scrutinized as potential security threats.
当时的沙特并未被视为潜在的安全威胁。
They were seen as tourists who would most likely spend a lot of money and then go home.
他们被视为游客，很可能会花很多钱然后回家。
To state the obvious, before 9/11 happened, we as a nation couldn't imagine 9/11.
显而易见的是，在 9/11 事件发生之前，我们作为一个国家无法想象 9/11。
Now, 15 years later, we think about it all the time.
15年后的今天，我们一直在思考这个问题。
We've spent billions of dollars to study and fix what went wrong.
我们花费了数十亿美元来研究和解决问题。
As Susan says, quote, "any policy or practice that was in place at the time 9/11 happened has long been superseded.
正如苏珊所说，“9/11 事件发生时实施的任何政策或做法早已被取代。
Long been superseded," end quote.
早已被取代，”引用结束。
In other words, we wrote a whole book about this in order to change it, and the government did make enormous changes.
换句话说，我们为此写了一整本书来改变它，而政府确实做出了巨大的改变。
I'm not saying, and Susan is definitely not saying, that now we're invulnerable.
我并不是说，苏珊也绝对不是说，现在我们已经无懈可击了。
Quite the opposite.
恰恰相反。
The United States is vulnerable in ways that have evolved radically since 9/11 and are continuing to evolve.
自 9/11 事件以来，美国的脆弱性已经发生了根本性的演变，并且仍在继续演变。
But that evolution is not reflected in the executive order.
但这种演变并未反映在行政命令中。
The order says, correctly, that, quote, "while the visa issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States," end quote.
该命令正确地指出，“虽然在 9 月 11 日袭击事件后对签证发放程序进行了审查和修改，以更好地发现潜在恐怖分子是否获得签证，但这些措施并没有阻止进入美国的外国人发起的袭击”，引文结尾。
That is absolutely true.
这是绝对正确的。
But it's also true that, in the last several years, the majority of terrorist attacks in the US-- not all, but the majority-- have been committed by US citizens, not green card holders, not visa holders, not refugees.
但事实上，在过去几年中，美国发生的大多数恐怖袭击——不是全部，而是大多数——是由美国公民实施的，而不是绿卡持有者、签证持有者或难民。
Citizens.
公民们。
I talked to a former CIA case officer who said what worries him about the executive order is that it's letting the exceptions set the rule.
我与一位前中央情报局案件官员交谈过，他说这项行政命令令他担心的是，它让例外情况来制定规则。
He said ISIS propaganda doesn't need a visa.
他说伊斯兰国的宣传不需要签证。
It doesn't need a plane.
它不需要飞机。
It's here.
就在这里。
And to crack down right now on refugees and other visa holders, people who've been through our screening process-- to make that the focus, as if not much has really changed with our visa process since 9/11, doesn't address the biggest part of the problem right now.
现在对难民和其他签证持有者、那些已经通过我们筛选程序的人进行打击——将其作为重点，就好像自 9/11 以来我们的签证程序没有发生太大变化一样，并没有解决目前问题的最大部分。
Which of course, doesn't mean that someone can never again get in from the outside and do terrible damage.
当然，这并不意味着有人永远不能再从外面进入并造成可怕的破坏。
That is always, always a risk.
这始终是一个风险。
Susan said the government is constantly modifying security procedures as new tactics and new weaknesses emerge, and it cannot ever let up doing that.
苏珊表示，随着新策略和新弱点的出现，政府正在不断修改安全程序，而且永远不会放松。
One last thing to note about 9/11.
关于 9/11 最后一件需要注意的事情。
The authors of the 9/11 report, after documenting every failure that led to 2,996 deaths, every mistake, every naive notion, after immersing themselves in this tragedy, they wrote not just that it's vital to secure the country's borders and to check and triple check everyone who wants to come here.
9/11 报告的作者在记录了导致 2,996 人死亡的每一次失败、每一个错误、每一个天真的想法之后，在沉浸在这场悲剧之后，他们写道，至关重要的是，不仅要确保国家边界安全，还要对每一个想要来这里的人进行一次又一次的检查。
They also wrote this.
他们也写了这个。
Quote, "our borders and immigration system, including law enforcement, ought to send the message of welcome, tolerance, and justice to members of immigrant communities in the United States and in the countries of origin," end quote.
引文最后写道：“我们的边境和移民系统，包括执法部门，应该向美国和原籍国的移民社区成员传递欢迎、宽容和正义的信息。”
Nancy Updike is one of the producers of our show.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制片人之一。
This idea, by the way, that security experts told Nancy that trying to stop terrorists at our borders might not be the best way to stop future acts of terror, that is also the very first point made by foreign service officers and diplomats in that dissent memo you may have heard about.
顺便说一句，安全专家告诉南希，试图在我们的边境阻止恐怖分子可能不是阻止未来恐怖行为的最佳方式，这也是外交官和外交官在你可能听说过的异议备忘录中提出的第一点。
The State Department has a process for its experts to call attention to policy mistakes they think the United States is making.
国务院有一个程序，供其专家提请人们注意他们认为美国正在犯下的政策错误。
This one was signed by about 1,000 State Department officials, apparently the most anybody can remember of signing one of these things.
这份文件由大约 1,000 名国务院官员签署，显然是人们记忆中签署的最多的一份文件。
This is from their memo.
这是他们的备忘录。
They said one problem with the travel ban is that it, quote, "will not achieve its stated aim to protect the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States.
他们表示，旅行禁令的一个问题是，它“无法实现其既定目标，即保护美国人民免受进入美国的外国人的恐怖袭击。”
Despite the executive order's focus on them, a vanishingly small number of terror attacks on US soil have been committed by foreign nationals who recently entered the United States on an immigrant or non-immigrant visa.
尽管行政命令的重点是这些人，但在美国领土上实施的恐怖袭击中，有极少数是由最近持移民或非移民签证进入美国的外国人实施的。
Rather, the overwhelming majority of attacks have been committed by native-born or naturalized US citizens-- individuals who have been living in the United States for decades, if not since birth.
相反，绝大多数攻击是由土生土长或归化的美国公民实施的，这些人即使不是从出生起就已经在美国生活了数十年。
Given the near absence of terror attacks committed in recent years by Syrian, Iraqi, Irani, Libyan, Somali, Sudanese, and Yemeni citizens who were in the US after entering on a visa, this ban will have little practical effect in improving public safety."
鉴于近年来持签证进入美国的叙利亚、伊拉克、伊朗、利比亚、索马里、苏丹和也门公民几乎没有发生恐怖袭击事件，这项禁令对改善公共安全几乎没有实际作用。”
[MUSIC, THE SUNTONES, "GIVE ME YOUR TIRED YOUR POOR"]
[音乐、太阳音、“给我你的疲倦、你的穷人”]
Act Four: How Do You Solve A Problem Like Sharia?
第四幕：如何解决像伊斯兰教法这样的问题？
Ira Glass Act Four, How Do You Solve A Problem Like Sharia?
艾拉·格拉斯第四幕，如何解决像伊斯兰教法这样的问题？
So one thing about this executive order is that it doesn't just target people who are members of terrorist groups.
因此，这项行政命令的一件事是，它不仅仅针对恐怖组织成员。
It targets anybody sympathetic to their ideas.
它针对任何同情他们的想法的人。
It says, quote, "the United States cannot and should not admit those who do not support the Constitution or those who would place violent ideologies over American law," which presumably is supposed to address Muslims who want to impose Sharia law.
它引用说，“美国不能也不应该接纳那些不支持宪法的人或那些将暴力意识形态置于美国法律之上的人”，这大概是针对想要实施伊斯兰教法的穆斯林的。
The executive order specifically mentions people who believe in honor killings, who believe in other forms of violence against women, and who believe in the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own.
该行政命令特别提到了相信名誉杀人、相信其他形式的暴力侵害妇女行为以及相信迫害与自己宗教不同的人的人。
But the order does not say the word Muslim, and that's an important point.
但该命令并没有提到“穆斯林”这个词，这是很重要的一点。
The administration spokespeople said a number of times this week that this executive order is not a Muslim ban.
政府发言人本周多次表示，这项行政命令不是穆斯林禁令。
Here's White House press secretary Sean Spicer, for instance.
以白宫新闻秘书肖恩·斯派塞为例。
This is not a Muslim ban.
这不是穆斯林禁令。
It's not a travel ban.
这不是旅行禁令。
It's a vetting system to keep America safe.
这是一个确保美国安全的审查制度。
That's it, plain and simple.
就是这样，简单明了。
And all of the facts--
而所有的事实——
This is the explanation over and over, in various ways and various spokespeople.
这是不同发言人以不同方式一遍又一遍地解释的。
This is about safety, this executive order.
这是关于安全的行政命令。
Sean Spicer did a pretty good job summarizing the point at a different press briefing this week.
肖恩·斯派塞在本周的另一场新闻发布会上很好地总结了这一点。
The president's going to be very proactive with protecting this country.
总统将非常积极地保护这个国家。
We're not going to wait until we get attacked and figure out how we can make sure it doesn't happen again.
我们不会等到受到攻击才想办法确保这种情况不再发生。
He's going to do everything in his power to stop every threat that we face in this country and every potential threat.
他将竭尽全力阻止我们在这个国家面临的每一个威胁和每一个潜在的威胁。
And that's the key point in this.
这就是关键点。
How do we get ahead of threats?
我们如何应对威胁？
How do we keep America ahead of the curve when it comes to people who want to do us harm?
当面对那些想要伤害我们的人时，我们如何让美国保持领先地位？
And that's what the president--
这就是总统所说的——
When I tried to make sense of this radical change in our immigration and anti-terrorism policy over the last weekend, I came across this article on a website that's devoted to national security law, called Lawfare, by the site's editor-in-chief, Benjamin Wittes, who I learned is usually pretty hawkish on national security issues.
上周末，当我试图理解我们移民和反恐政策的这一根本性变化时，我在一个专门讨论国家安全法的网站上看到了这篇文章，名为Lawfare，作者是该网站的主编本杰明·维特斯(Benjamin Wittes)，我了解到他在国家安全问题上通常相当强硬。
And he noted a bunch of things that bothered him about the executive order.
他还指出了有关行政命令的一系列令他困扰的事情。
He said that the drafting-- like the actual language, the writing of it-- was inept and made it prone to legal challenges.
他说，起草工作——就像实际的语言和写作一样——是无能的，很容易受到法律挑战。
He called that, quote, "a birthday gift to the ACLU or anybody who wanted to challenge it."
他称其为“送给美国公民自由联盟或任何想要挑战它的人的生日礼物”。
But the most interesting thing he said-- he let out this argument where he said that if the real purpose of this order is to stop terrorists, like it claims, it's not going to achieve its goals.
但他说的最有趣的是——他提出了这样的论点，他说，如果该命令的真正目的是阻止恐怖分子，就像它声称的那样，它就不会实现其目标。
He says he didn't believe it was the executive order's real goal.
他说他不相信这是行政命令的真正目标。
He said if stopping terrorists was its goal, then the order is, quote, "wildly overinclusive and wildly underinclusive at the same time." On the underinclusive side, Wittes notes that the executive order doesn't stop people from lots of countries that might be just as likely as these seven countries to have terrorists.
他说，如果制止恐怖分子是其目标，那么该命令“既过于包容，又过于包容”。维特斯指出，在包容性不足的方面，行政命令并没有阻止来自许多国家的人们，这些国家可能与这七个国家一样有可能存在恐怖分子。
And on the overinclusive side, he says the order bans all kinds of people that it shouldn't, people we have no reason to suspect of being connected to terrorism.
从过度包容的角度来看，他说该命令禁止了各种不应该的人，我们没有理由怀疑他们与恐怖主义有关。
I had him read.
我让他读了。
It for the purpose of the order is the one it describes, for example, I can think of no good reason to burden the lives of students individually suspected of nothing who are here lawfully and just happened to be temporarily overseas, or to detain tourists and refugees who were mid-flight when the order came down.
该命令的目的就是它所描述的目的，例如，我想不出有什么充分的理由去加重那些合法居留、只是暂时在海外、毫无嫌疑的学生的生活负担，或者在命令下达时拘留正在飞行途中的游客和难民。
I have trouble imagining any reason to raise questions about whether green card holders who have lived here for years can leave the country and then return.
我很难想象有什么理由质疑在这里居住多年的绿卡持有者是否可以离开这个国家然后返回。
Because of that, he writes, "I don't believe that the stated purpose is the real purpose of this executive order.
因此，他写道：“我不认为所声明的目的是这项行政命令的真正目的。
In the rational pursuit of security objectives, you don't marginalize your expert security agencies and fail to vet your ideas through a normal interagency process." He's referring here, I guess, to the fact that the Department of Defense, State Department, Department of Homeland Security, and other agencies were not consulted in the normal ways before this thing was released.
在理性追求安全目标的过程中，你不会边缘化你的专家安全机构，也不会通过正常的机构间流程审查你的想法。”我猜他在这里指的是这样一个事实：在这件事发布之前，没有以正常方式征求国防部、国务院、国土安全部和其他机构的意见。
He writes, "you don't target the wrong people in nutty ways when you're rationally pursuing real security objectives.
他写道：“当你理性地追求真正的安全目标时，你不会以疯狂的方式瞄准错误的人。
When do you do these things?" he writes.
你什么时候做这些事？”他写道。
"You do these things when you're elevating the symbolic politics of bashing Islam over any actual security interest.
“当你将打击伊斯兰教的象征性政治置于任何实际的安全利益之上时，你就会做这些事情。
This will cause hardship and misery for tens or hundreds of thousands of people because that is precisely what it is intended to do." He writes that he doesn't make this charge lightly.
这将为数以万计或数十万人带来困难和痛苦，因为这正是它的目的。”他写道，他提出这一指控并非轻率之举。
He's never said anything like this about any other post-9/11 measures.
他从未对 9/11 后的任何其他措施说过类似的话。
But that, "whatever the White House is saying this is going to do," he writes, "this will not help with terrorism, but it will keep out Muslims." and he's concluded that's its purpose.
但他写道，“无论白宫说什么，这都会做什么，这无助于恐怖主义，但会把穆斯林拒之门外。”他断定这就是它的目的。
Well, I think the president's told us that.
嗯，我想总统已经告诉我们了。
I mean, I think all through the campaign he told us that he was going to stop Muslims from coming to the country.
我的意思是，我认为在整个竞选过程中，他告诉我们他将阻止穆斯林进入这个国家。
And all through the campaign, he occasionally said-- this is not a direct quote, but at one point he said, we used to call it a Muslim ban.
在整个竞选过程中，他偶尔会说——这不是直接引用，但有一次他说，我们过去称之为穆斯林禁令。
Now we call it extreme vetting.
现在我们称之为极端审查。
And Rudy Giuliani said on national television that the president asked him, how do we keep out Muslims in a way that looks legal?
鲁迪朱利安尼在国家电视台上说，总统问他，我们如何以看起来合法的方式将穆斯林拒之门外？
And this order is a reflection of that.
这个命令反映了这一点。
And this strikes me as different from other steps that have been taken in the post-9/11 era.
我觉得这与 9/11 后时代采取的其他步骤不同。
Did you see a senior administration official was on a conference call with reporters this week-- it was in The Washington Post-- and talked about the purpose of this executive order and very quickly got to talking about saying how the immigration system, if it wasn't changed, could lead to, quote, "the kind of large and permanent domestic terror threat that becomes multi-dimensional and multi-generational and becomes a sort of permanent feature in this case.
你是否看到一位高级政府官员本周在《华盛顿邮报》上与记者举行电话会议，谈到了这项行政命令的目的，并很快开始谈论移民制度，如果不改变的话，可能会导致“一种大规模和永久性的国内恐怖威胁，这种威胁会变得多维度、多代人，并在这种情况下成为一种永久特征。”
It will become a permanent feature of American life." And what he was describing, really-- I mean, he says the phrase domestic terrorist threat, but what he's really just describing was, like, a lot of people coming into this country.
它将成为美国生活的一个永久特征。”他所描述的，实际上——我的意思是，他说的是“国内恐怖主义威胁”这个词，但他实际上只是描述的是，很多人进入这个国家。
He doesn't say the word Muslim, but that was the clear implication.
他没有说“穆斯林”这个词，但这就是明确的含义。
He says, quote, "we don't want a situation where, 20, 30 years from now, it's just a given thing that, on a fairly regular basis, there's domestic terrorist strikes, that stores are shut up or airports have explosive devices planted, or people are mowed down in the street by cars and automobiles and things of that nature," the senior official said.
这位高级官员表示，“我们不希望出现这样的情况：20年、30年后，国内恐怖袭击、商店关门、机场安放爆炸装置，或者人们在街上被汽车和类似的东西压倒，这只是一种必然的情况。”
"These are realities that we're living in today."
“这些都是我们今天生活的现实。”
Well, I mean, look, he's talking about the terrorist consequences of admitting Muslims.
嗯，我的意思是，听着，他正在谈论接纳穆斯林的恐怖主义后果。
Now, I first of all don't believe that that is an accurate account of Muslim immigration to the United States.
现在，我首先不相信这是对穆斯林移民美国的准确描述。
I furthermore don't believe that large numbers of people in the intelligence apparatus of the United States believe that.
而且我不相信美国情报机构中有很多人相信这一点。
Good counterterrorism is about scalpels.
好的反恐就是手术刀。
It's about distinguishing between people who pose threats and people who don't pose threats.
这是关于区分构成威胁的人和不构成威胁的人。
Bad counterterrorism is about broad brushes and machetes.
糟糕的反恐就是大刀阔斧。
And we've had two administrations that have been, in different ways, careful about these distinctions.
我们的两届政府都以不同的方式谨慎对待这些区别。
You're talking about the Obama administration and the Bush administration before it?
你说的是奥巴马政府和之前的布什政府吗？
Correct.
正确的。
And neither of them ever said anything that would suggest that the broad consequences of properly-vetted Muslim immigration to the United States will be to turn US cities into ungodly war zones of terrorism.
他们两人都没有说过任何话表明，经过适当审查的穆斯林移民到美国的广泛后果将是将美国城市变成不敬虔的恐怖主义战区。
And it's an irresponsible thing to say, and there is absolutely no empirical support for it.
而且这种说法是不负责任的，而且完全没有任何实证支持。
Benjamin Wittes of Lawfare.
Lawfare 的本杰明·维茨 (Benjamin Wittes)。
Act Five: It’s Not Easy Being Green Ira Glass Act Five, It's Not Easy Being Green.
第五幕：绿色环保并不容易 第五幕，绿色环保并不容易。
You might remember Abdi Nor from a show that we did a couple of years ago.
您可能还记得几年前我们做的一场演出中的阿卜迪·诺尔 (Abdi Nor)。
He was a Somali refugee.
他是索马里难民。
He'd been living in Kenya, like the guys you heard at the beginning of our program today.
他一直住在肯尼亚，就像你今天节目开始时听到的那些人一样。
Only Abdi got lucky.
只有阿卜迪很幸运。
There's a thing the US has done for years, the Diversity Visa Lottery.
美国多年来一直在做一件事，那就是多元化签证抽签。
It makes 50,000 permanent resident visas available each year around the world.
它每年在全球提供 50,000 个永久居民签证。
And it's a real lottery.
这是真正的彩票。
And he won and came to the United States.
他赢了并来到了美国。
He's living in Portland, Maine.
他住在缅因州波特兰。
Reporter Leo Hornak reached out to Abdi this week to see, in light of the executive order, what Abdi is thinking.
记者利奥·霍纳克本周联系了阿卜迪，了解阿卜迪根据行政命令的想法。
You know, I got the green card and everything has been OK until recently, when the green card issue just came up all over the media when Trump said that he-- I think they don't have an idea what the green card holders actually are.
你知道，我拿到了绿卡，一切都很好，直到最近，当绿卡问题刚刚在媒体上出现时，特朗普说他——我认为他们不知道绿卡持有者到底是什么。
But they just made me feel not the way I felt myself when they decided that people like us would be turned from the airport.
但当他们决定将像我们这样的人拒之门外时，他们让我的感觉与我自己的感觉不同。
But if a member of the Trump administration was right here, or an official, they would say, OK, we cleared that up.
但如果特朗普政府的一名成员或官员就在这里，他们会说，好吧，我们已经解决了。
You can relax.
你可以放松一下。
Green card holders are fine.
绿卡持有者没问题。
I don't believe that.
我不相信。
That's what I would say.
我就是这么说的。
So I've traveled to Canada before with my green card, and I've been shaking when I handed it to the lady who was at the border.
我以前曾带着绿卡去过加拿大，当我把绿卡交给边境的那位女士时，我一直在发抖。
And she handed it back to me, and that was totally fine.
她把它还给了我，那就完全没问题了。
It was about two years ago.
那是大约两年前的事了。
And now, I don't even want to take a risk with that.
现在，我什至不想冒这个风险。
I don't want to do that because I don't want to get into trouble.
我不想这样做，因为我不想惹上麻烦。
OK.
好的。
So this travel ban is temporary and we've been told the green cards are exempt from many bans, so you should be fine.
所以这个旅行禁令是暂时的，我们被告知绿卡可以免受许多禁令的影响，所以你应该没问题。
Do you have any plans to make a trip outside the country just temporarily at any point?
您是否有计划随时暂时出国旅行？
Leo, this is not about the 120 days.
狮子座，这不是120天的事。
This is not about the executive order itself.
这与行政命令本身无关。
This is about who issues the executive order.
这是关于谁发布行政命令的问题。
I think it's about Trump.
我认为这与特朗普有关。
And I'm more concerned of the administration today and the way things are going.
我更关心今天的政府和事情的进展方式。
So I'm not planning to leave even after 120 days.
所以即使120天后我也不打算离开。
So under Trump's administration, hell no. I'm not going nowhere.
所以在特朗普政府的领导下，绝对不会。我哪儿也不去。
During the Trump administration, your plan is not to leave the United States at all?
特朗普执政期间，您的计划是根本不离开美国？
That's correct, because what if, even as a citizen, I go out and something happens and then again, he says, no, Muslims cannot come back?
这是正确的，因为如果，即使作为一个公民，我出去并且发生了一些事情，然后他又说，不，穆斯林不能回来怎么办？
So you know, something like that.
所以你知道，类似的事情。
So in Trump's administration, no, I'm not going nowhere.
因此，在特朗普政府中，不，我哪儿也不会去。
So from what he says, and how he executes things, and how he talks, and if you look back when he says extreme vetting-- and he really emphasizes that extreme vetting.
因此，从他所说的、他如何执行事情、他如何说话，如果你回顾一下他所说的极端审查——他确实强调了极端审查。
And remember, I'm a Somali.
请记住，我是索马里人。
I come from Somalia, one of the countries that he really doesn't like.
我来自索马里，他真的不喜欢这个国家之一。
And he came to Portland, the city where I live, [?
他来到了我居住的城市波特兰，[？
twice, ?] and talked about the Somalis as bad people who were just coming to this country, and they have to be stopped.
两次，？]并谈到索马里人是刚来到这个国家的坏人，必须阻止他们。
That rhetoric and the actions that he's now doing-- I think that, at one point, he's going to do something that will directly affect me.
他现在的言论和行动——我认为，在某一时刻，他会做一些会直接影响我的事情。
I don't know what it's going to be, but I'm really worried.
我不知道会发生什么，但我真的很担心。
Abdi Nor.
阿卜迪·诺尔.
He's writing a book about his life as a refugee.
他正在写一本关于他难民生活的书。
Leo Hornak is a BBC reporter for PRI's The World.
利奥·霍纳克 (Leo Hornak) 是英国广播公司 (BBC) PRI 的《世界》记者。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Zoe Chace and myself.
图片来源 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目是由 Zoe Chace 和我自己制作的。
Our production staff, Susan Burton, Dana Chivvis, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Karen Duffin, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, and Diane Wu.
我们的制作人员包括 Susan Burton、Dana Chivvis、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Karen Duffin、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Matt Tierney、Nancy Updike 和 Diane Wu。
Research help today from Christopher Swetala, Michelle Harris, and Ben Phelan.
Christopher Swetala、Michelle Harris 和 Ben Phelan 今天提供了研究帮助。
Music help today from Damien Graef.
今天达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 提供音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, somebody stole his kayak for the weekend and then brought it back, and Torey thinks it was a Somali pirates.
你知道，有人在周末偷了他的皮划艇，然后又把它带回来，托里认为这是索马里海盗。
But he doesn't know how to catch them.
但他不知道如何抓住他们。
What are we going to do, run somebody's fingerprints through the Mogadishu DMV?
我们要做什么，通过摩加迪沙车管所采集某人的指纹？
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。