599: Seriously? - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #599 | October 21, 2016 599: Seriously?

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 599 集 | 2016 年 10 月 21 日 599：认真的吗？

Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass OK, so I don't know any other way to get into this than to just say it.

序言 Ira Glass 好的，除了直接说出来之外，我不知道还有什么其他方法可以进入这个话题。

I'm alarmed about something with this year's election.

我对今年选举的一些事情感到震惊。

And yes, I know everybody is alarmed about this election.

是的，我知道每个人都对这次选举感到震惊。

That feels like the one bipartisan thing going on in our country, is that everybody on both sides is kind of a little freaked out.

这感觉就像我们国家正在发生的一件两党合作的事情，双方的每个人都有点害怕。

But even in that context, there was this one moment where I felt like, oh, this is the world that we're living in?

但即使在这种情况下，也有那么一刻我觉得，哦，这就是我们生活的世界吗？

Like, it's this bad?

比如说，有这么糟糕吗？

This is a moment that was widely reported.

这是一个被广泛报道的时刻。

I bet you saw this.

我打赌你看到了这个。

September 16, Donald Trump held a press conference to say that he now believes that Barack Obama was born in the United States.

9月16日，唐纳德·特朗普召开新闻发布会表示，他现在相信巴拉克·奥巴马出生在美国。

And then he added this claim.

然后他补充了这一说法。

Hillary Clinton and her campaign of 2008 started the birther controversy.

希拉里·克林顿 (Hillary Clinton) 和她 2008 年的竞选活动引发了出生地争议。

I finished it.

我完成了。

I finished it.

我完成了。

You know what I mean.

你知道我的意思。

Jake Tapper was doing the live coverage of the press conference on CNN.

杰克·塔珀 (Jake Tapper) 正在 CNN 现场直播新闻发布会。

He's their chief Washington correspondent.

他是他们驻华盛顿的首席记者。

And he knew the whole history of the birther controversy.

他知道出生者争议的整个历史。

He had covered this for years, knew it backwards and forwards.

他已经报道这个问题很多年了，对它了如指掌。

And I got in touch with him because I wondered what it was like to be on live television when Trump announced this.

我联系了他，因为我想知道当特朗普宣布这一消息时，在电视直播中是什么感觉。

It was just-- it was just bizarre.

这只是——这太奇怪了。

And there's a famous quote from the writer Mary McCarthy who was in a feud with another writer, Lillian Hellman, and she said, "every word she says is a lie, including 'and' and 'the.'" And that's what it was, watching that press conference.

作家玛丽·麦卡锡 (Mary McCarthy) 曾与另一位作家莉莲·赫尔曼 (Lillian Hellman) 发生争执，她说：“她说的每一个字都是谎言，包括‘和’和‘那个’。”事实就是如此，观看那场新闻发布会。

In the live coverage, Tapper almost sounds mad.

在现场报道中，塔珀听起来几乎是疯了。

Here he is on TV.

他在电视上。

Donald Trump said that Barack Obama was born in the United States, which has been a fact since 1961, but congratulations for realizing it.

唐纳德·特朗普说巴拉克·奥巴马出生在美国，这自 1961 年以来就是事实，但祝贺你实现了这一点。

And then he said, Hillary Clinton started birtherism-- not true-- and I ended it-- also not true.

然后他说，希拉里·克林顿开创了出生论——不真实——而我结束了它——同样不真实。

Watching you, what it seemed like is that you were feeling something like, oh, something so wrong is happening here.

看着你，你感觉好像，哦，这里发生了一些错误的事情。

A lie is being born in front of my eyes.

一个谎言正在我眼前诞生。

I must stop this somehow.

我必须以某种方式阻止这一切。

I have no delusions that I can stop a lie.

我不妄想我能阻止谎言。

[CHUCKLES] But, I mean, I just wanted anybody watching who heard this to know that it was wrong.

[笑]但是，我的意思是，我只是想让任何听到这句话的人都知道这是错误的。

It was just false.

这只是假的。

He didn't end it.

他没有结束。

He perpetuated it.

他延续了它。

He made the birther lie bigger than it had ever been.

他把出生者的谎言弄得比以往任何时候都大。

But let me add one thing just because I do want to say one thing about--

但让我添加一件事只是因为我确实想说一件事——

OK.

好的。

At this point, Jake Tapper could not control himself.

此时，杰克·塔珀无法控制自己。

He ran through all the facts about how we know that Hillary Clinton's campaign did not start the birther issue, and this has been summarized plenty of places by now.

他讲述了我们如何知道希拉里·克林顿的竞选活动并未引发出生地问题的所有事实，到目前为止，这一点已经在很多地方进行了总结。

Look it up if you're curious.

如果你好奇的话就查一下。

Back in that September press conference, it was the boldness of the lie that was disturbing.

回顾九月份的新闻发布会，令人不安的是这个大胆的谎言。

Like, seriously?

真的吗？

Do you think they were going to believe you?

你认为他们会相信你吗？

Or do you know that we're not going to believe you and you just don't care?

或者你知道我们不会相信你而你只是不在乎？

And it didn't take long for the results of the lie to be measured.

没过多久，谎言的结果就得到了衡量。

Just a few days after the Trump press conference, a Monmouth poll showed that one third of likely voters in Florida believed that Hillary Clinton started the birther controversy.

特朗普新闻发布会后几天，蒙茅斯的一项民意调查显示，佛罗里达州三分之一的潜在选民认为希拉里·克林顿引发了出生地争议。

I told this to Jake.

我把这件事告诉了杰克。

I mean, there is a large percentage of the country that thinks Barack Obama is a Muslim.

我的意思是，这个国家有很大一部分人认为巴拉克·奥巴马是穆斯林。

That would also be a third, about 30%.

这也将是三分之一，大约 30%。

He's a Christian.

他是基督徒。

I mean, there are a lot of people who believe a lot of wrong things.

我的意思是，有很多人相信很多错误的事情。

It's-- it's crazy.

这太疯狂了。

I mean, and it's dispiriting.

我的意思是，这令人沮丧。

I mean, it's just-- I've never seen anything like this.

我的意思是，我从来没有见过这样的事情。

In just the last two weeks Donald Trump has said that Hillary Clinton may have been on drugs in the second debate.

就在过去两周，唐纳德·特朗普表示希拉里·克林顿可能在第二次辩论中吸毒。

He said Hillary Clinton, quote, "meets in secret with international banks to plot the destruction of US sovereignty." During the debates, he denied saying that climate change is a hoax created by China and that Japan should get nuclear weapons even though, A, many of us remember him saying those things.

他说，希拉里·克林顿“与国际银行秘密会面，密谋破坏美国主权”。在辩论中，他否认气候变化是中国制造的骗局以及日本应该拥有核武器的说法，尽管我们很多人都记得他说过这些话。

It was not that long ago.

那是不久前的事了。

And B, we can all just find this in our phones in, like, seconds.

B，我们都可以在几秒钟之内在手机中找到它。

These lies are perplexing in their nakedness.

这些赤裸裸的谎言令人费解。

Like, he knows lots of us know these are lies, but we're in some kind of new kind of universe where that is normal and that is OK and we will just accept that.

就像，他知道我们很多人都知道这些都是谎言，但我们处于某种新的宇宙中，这是正常的，这是可以的，我们只会接受这一点。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

I mean, honestly, Joe McCarthy said crazy things in, you know, the '50s, but I've never seen accusations this wild in American politics from a major, major political figure.

我的意思是，老实说，乔·麦卡锡 (Joe McCarthy) 在 50 年代说过疯狂的话，但我从未见过美国政治中一位重要政治人物如此疯狂的指控。

I feel worried about the country.

我对国家感到担忧。

Like, I feel worried that we live in a country where so many people distrust the fact-based media and fact-based journalists and are getting their information from other news sources and that things like this can enter the atmosphere, and then they become true for so many people.

就像，我担心我们生活在一个有这么多人不信任以事实为基础的媒体和以事实为基础的记者的国家，他们从其他新闻来源获取信息，这样的事情可能会进入大气层，然后对很多人来说成为现实。

I feel worried.

我感到担心。

What's uncomfortable about this election is that the Trump campaign-- not the Republican Party, but the Trump campaign-- has made it so when you stand up for facts and things that are true, they act as though those facts are partisan.

这次选举令人不安的是，特朗普竞选团队——不是共和党，而是特朗普竞选团队——已经做到了这一点：当你坚持事实和真实的事情时，他们的表现就好像这些事实是有党派之争的。

And that's very uncomfortable because I do not belong to either major political party.

这让我很不舒服，因为我不属于任何一个主要政党。

I don't think the Democratic Party or the Republican Party have answers to the nation's problems independently.

我认为民主党或共和党都不能独立地解决国家的问题。

In addition to his live coverage, Jake did a whole fact-check segment with FactCheck.org about whether Hillary Clinton started the birther movement.

除了现场报道之外，杰克还与 FactCheck.org 一起对希拉里·克林顿是否发起了生育运动进行了完整的事实核查。

But, of course, he's on a network that is seen as so partisan-- it's so hated by some Republicans-- that stadiums full of people chant against them at Trump rallies.

但是，当然，他所在的网络被视为党派之争——一些共和党人对此非常憎恨——以至于在特朗普集会上，体育场里挤满了人高呼反对他们的口号。

CNN sucks!

CNN太烂了！

CNN sucks!

CNN太烂了！

CNN sucks!

CNN太烂了！

CNN sucks!

CNN太烂了！

This fact-check technique is the latest.

这种事实核查技术是最新的。

Let me tell you what it really is.

让我告诉你它到底是什么。

There is no fact-checking.

没有事实核查。

This is Rush Limbaugh, a couple weeks ago.

我是几周前的拉什·林博。

The fact that The New York Times and The Washington Post and USA Today and all these other papers and networks now have fact-checkers is for one reason.

事实上，《纽约时报》、《华盛顿邮报》、《今日美国》以及所有其他报纸和网络现在都拥有事实核查员，这是有原因的。

It allows them to fool you.

这让他们可以愚弄你。

The idea that it is a fact-check story is designed to say to you that it is objective and analytically fair.

这是一个事实核查故事的想法旨在向您表明它是客观的并且分析上是公平的。

And all it is is a vehicle for them to do opinion journalism under the guise of fairness, which, if you fall for it, gives it even more power.

这只是他们打着公平幌子做舆论新闻的工具，如果你上当了，它就会赋予它更大的力量。

Ira Glass So that's where we are right now.

Ira Glass：这就是我们现在的情况。

The presentation of facts is seen as partisan opinion, and then every day a barrage of untruths are presented as truth, and we're just supposed to suck it up.

事实的呈现被视为党派观点，然后每天都有大量的谎言被呈现为真理，而我们只能接受它。

That's the moment we live in.

这就是我们生活的时刻。

That's our country right now.

这就是我们现在的国家。

And this is going to continue after this election, no matter who wins.

无论谁获胜，这种情况都将在这次选举后继续下去。

Like, this is the rest of our lives, I think, this post-truth politics.

就像，我想，这就是我们的余生，这种后真相政治。

With so many of us getting our news from social media and from sources that we agree with, it's easier than ever to check if a fact is true, and facts matter less than ever.

我们中的许多人从社交媒体和我们同意的来源获取新闻，比以往任何时候都更容易检查事实是否属实，而事实也比以往任何时候都不再那么重要。

Well, today on our program, we take stock of how far we've fallen, and we've got some other stuff, too-- about truth and the elections.

好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们评估了我们已经堕落了多远，我们还有其他一些内容——关于真相和选举。

From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Act One: Lies Become the Truth Ira Glass So before I say anything else, I want to say, of course, there is solid, fact-based journalism done on the right.

第一幕：谎言成为真相 Ira Glass 因此，在我说其他内容之前，我想说，当然，右翼有可靠的、基于事实的新闻报道。

That is not what I'm going to be talking about right now.

这不是我现在要谈论的内容。

I'm talking about the stew of websites, talk radio, and commentary that churn out all kinds of stuff every day that is half-true or not true at all.

我说的是网站、谈话电台和评论，每天都会炮制出各种半真半假或根本不真实的东西。

And I feel like for months I have been thinking about this just all the time, how extreme the gap is this year between the reality put forth by the mainstream media and the reality put forth by the right-wing media.

我觉得几个月来我一直在思考这个问题，今年主流媒体提出的现实与右翼媒体提出的现实之间的差距有多大。

Like, why is the gap so big?

比如，为什么差距这么大？

This was really driven home to me recently when I've been talking to my uncle Lenny on the phone.

最近当我和我的叔叔莱尼通电话时，我才真正意识到这一点。

My uncle Lenny's 81.

我叔叔莱尼81岁了。

He's a retired plastic surgeon outside of San Diego.

他是圣地亚哥郊外的一名退休整形外科医生。

He gets all of his news from Fox and The Wall Street Journal .

他的所有新闻都来自福克斯和华尔街日报。

Not into President Obama or Hillary Clinton at all.

根本不喜欢奥巴马总统或希拉里·克林顿。

Doesn't like Trump very much, but he's voting for him as the lesser of two evils.

不太喜欢特朗普，但他投票给特朗普是两害相权取其轻。

Ira.

伊拉。

Good morning.

早上好。

Ira Glass Hey.

艾拉·格拉斯 嘿。

Have you been for your walk today yet?

今天你去散步了吗？

Really?

真的吗？

I thought the walk was more of a first thing in the morning kind of activity.

我认为散步更像是早上的第一件事。

Well, it sometimes is, but I don't want to be too rigid.

嗯，有时是这样，但我不想太死板。

You don't want to be somebody who at night eats exactly seven almonds.

你不想成为一个晚上只吃七颗杏仁的人。

[LAUGHS] That's right.

[笑]没错。

Ira Glass That's a crazy person.

艾拉·格拉斯 那是个疯狂的人。

That's right, I'm telling my Republican uncle an Obama joke just to make him happy.

是的，我给我的共和党叔叔讲一个奥巴马的笑话只是为了让他开心。

A few weeks ago, I started recording conversations with my Uncle Lenny about the election.

几周前，我开始录制与莱尼叔叔有关选举的对话。

Mostly we read The New York Times together online and he would tell me what he thought of the stories.

大多数时候，我们一起在网上阅读《纽约时报》，他会告诉我他对这些故事的看法。

But what struck me most about these conversations is when Uncle Lenny would talk about Hillary Clinton, and especially about Barack Obama, the way he sees them.

但这些谈话中最让我印象深刻的是当莱尼叔叔谈论希拉里·克林顿，尤其是巴拉克·奥巴马时，以及他看待他们的方式。

The story in his head about them seemed very out there.

他脑子里关于他们的故事似乎很离奇。

Hey, can I ask, what do you think of Obama?

嘿，我能问一下，你觉得奥巴马怎么样？

I think he is an intelligent man who's never done anything worthwhile in his life.

我认为他是一个聪明人，一生中从未做过任何有价值的事情。

A print at--

打印于——

Hey, wait, stop right there.

嘿，等一下，就停在那里。

I feel like I find that confusing.

我觉得我觉得这很令人困惑。

Like, he's the first black president.

就像，他是第一位黑人总统。

That's an incredible thing.

这是一件不可思议的事情。

That's an incredible thing.

这是一件不可思议的事情。

Well, symbolically it is.

嗯，象征性地是这样。

But his performance has been that of an amateur, which he also is.

但他的表现只是业余爱好者，他本身也是。

He's done nothing.

他什么也没做。

He's played more rounds of golf than any president in history.

他打高尔夫球的次数比历史上任何一位总统都多。

I checked this later.

我后来查了一下。

Untrue.

不真实。

Dwight Eisenhower played nearly three times as much golf, Woodrow Wilson played four times more than Obama.

德怀特·艾森豪威尔 (Dwight Eisenhower) 打高尔夫球的次数几乎是奥巴马的三倍，伍德罗·威尔逊 (Woodrow Wilson) 打高尔夫球的次数是奥巴马的四倍。

But everything in Obama's biography seems suspicious to Lenny.

但奥巴马传记中的一切对莱尼来说似乎都很可疑。

Obama claims to have run the Harvard Law Review, Lenny told me.

莱尼告诉我，奥巴马声称自己负责《哈佛法律评论》。

Why didn't he write a single article for them?

他为什么不为他们写一篇文章？

I looked into it.

我调查了一下。

He did.

他做到了。

And no one in his graduating class from law school can remember ever having seen him there.

法学院的毕业班里没有人记得曾在那里见过他。

Oh, I know somebody from his law school class who knew him.

哦，我认识他法学院班上的一个人认识他。

Did he know him?

他认识他吗？

Ira Glass Yeah.

艾拉·格拉斯 是的。

Ayelet.

阿耶莱特。

My friend, Ayelet.

我的朋友，阿耶莱特。

She knew him in law school.

她在法学院认识他。

Well, that's the first person I've ever heard of who said they knew him in law school.

嗯，这是我听说的第一个自称在法学院认识他的人。

Notice that we're not even out of law school yet, and already this is a narrative where the most mundane details about the man's life are doubted.

请注意，我们甚至还没有走出法学院，在这个叙述中，关于这个人生活的最平凡的细节已经受到怀疑。

Already there's this tone of conspiracy and cover-up over nothing.

已经有这种阴谋和掩盖的语气了。

And I bring this up because these details are part of a story that grew up around Obama in the right-wing media.

我之所以提出这一点，是因为这些细节是右翼媒体中围绕奥巴马成长的故事的一部分。

He's not what he seems.

他并不像他看上去的那样。

He has a secret agenda.

他有一个秘密议程。

This story got traction, of course, partly because he's black, but the right-wing media would probably do the same thing with a white candidate.

当然，这个故事之所以受到关注，部分原因是他是黑人，但右翼媒体可能会对白人候选人做同样的事情。

I mean, look at some of the things they've said about Hillary Clinton, a candidate who gives them plenty of legitimate things to criticize, and yet somehow they dwell on this nonstop speculation about her health, the earpiece she supposedly wore at the debates.

我的意思是，看看他们对希拉里·克林顿(Hillary Clinton)所说的一些话，这位候选人给了他们很多合理的批评内容，但不知何故，他们却对她的健康状况、她在辩论中据称佩戴的耳机进行了不间断的猜测。

When Lenny and I talked about this, the story that he believes about Barack Obama and the one that I believe based on the mainstream media, each of us was like, really?

当莱尼和我谈论这个他所相信的关于巴拉克·奥巴马的故事以及我所相信的基于主流媒体的故事时，我们每个人都想，真的吗？

You believe that?

你相信吗？

He hates what America stands for.

他讨厌美国所代表的东西。

To him it stands for slavery, it stands for exceptionalism, it stands for mal-distribution of wealth.

对他来说，它代表奴隶制，代表例外主义，代表财富分配不当。

When Lenny talks about Obama's policies, it is all conspiracy.

当莱尼谈论奥巴马的政策时，这都是阴谋。

The president is a Muslim.

总统是穆斯林。

He's on a mission to put Muslims in positions of power and influence.

他的使命是让穆斯林掌握权力和影响力。

He has an ultra-left-wing agenda to erase the borders with Canada and Mexico and end the United States as we know it.

他有一个极左翼议程，旨在消除与加拿大和墨西哥的边界，并结束我们所知的美国。

This guy-- he wants to have one country of North America, which is composed of Canada, the United States, and part of Mexico, if not all of Mexico.

这个家伙——他想拥有一个北美国家，由加拿大、美国和墨西哥的一部分（如果不是整个墨西哥的话）组成。

That's why the existing laws, which dictate that border trespassers shall be deported, he chooses to ignore.

这就是为什么他选择忽视现行法律，即规定越境者应被驱逐出境。

Well, no, he actually deported 2.5 million people.

嗯，不，他实际上驱逐了 250 万人。

More than any other president.

比任何其他总统都多。

I don't believe that, Ira, for one minute.

艾拉，我一分钟都不相信。

I don't believe that.

我不相信。

OK, I love my uncle.

好吧，我爱我叔叔。

I remember crying as a kid when he went off to Vietnam.

我记得小时候他去越南时哭了。

Back in the '70s and '80s, he hated liberal politicians, but he hated them because they were liberals.

早在七十年代和八十年代，他就讨厌自由派政客，但他讨厌他们，因为他们是自由主义者。

Like, they spent too much money, they were soft on defense.

就像，他们花了太多钱，他们在防守上很软弱。

Like, that was enough.

就像，这就足够了。

He didn't believe these kind of dark conspiracies.

他不相信这种黑暗的阴谋。

That's the thing that's changed, for him, and lots of people, I think.

我想，对于他和很多人来说，这就是改变的事情。

And those numbers that I quoted him are true.

我引用他的那些数字是真实的。

They're from the Department of Homeland Security.

他们来自国土安全部。

But facts do not have a fighting chance against this right-wing fable.

但事实并没有对抗这种右翼寓言的机会。

And in the last few weeks since I started obsessing over all the lies that are being presented as truth right now, at some point I realized, like, oh, maybe the defining issue of this election is built around a story that isn't true.

自从我开始沉迷于现在被视为真相的所有谎言以来，在过去的几周里，在某些时候我意识到，哦，也许这次选举的决定性问题是围绕一个不真实的故事建立的。

Like, honestly, this is one that I just took for granted.

老实说，我认为这是理所当然的。

Like, people talk about this all the time.

就像，人们一直在谈论这个。

I hadn't given it a second thought.

我没有多想。

This issue that propelled Donald Trump to win the Republican nomination.

这个问题推动唐纳德·特朗普赢得共和党提名。

You know the one.

你知道那个。

I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will have Mexico pay for that wall.

我将在我们的南部边境修建一座伟大的长城，我将让墨西哥支付修建隔离墙的费用。

Yes!

是的！

Ira Glass The premise of the wall is that immigration is out of control.

艾拉·格拉斯 隔离墙的前提是移民失控。

Trump told an interviewer on Fox--

特朗普对福克斯的采访者说——

I'm not just talking Mexico.

我说的不仅仅是墨西哥。

I'm talking about all over the world, they're coming through the southern border.

我说的是世界各地，他们来自南部边境。

You're going to have them coming in from the Middle East.

他们将从中东运来。

You have them coming all over.

你让他们过来了。

It's not just Mexico.

不仅仅是墨西哥。

Everybody's pouring through the border.

每个人都涌入边境。

So when this became the central issue of the Republican primaries, the wall, to me, seemed like it might not be the most practical solution to this problem, but I figured this was a response to a problem facing the country.

因此，当这成为共和党初选的中心问题时，对我来说，隔离墙似乎可能不是解决这个问题的最实际的解决方案，但我认为这是对国家面临的问题的回应。

People might agree or disagree in the way that they would with any policy.

人们可能会同意或不同意任何政策。

But if you look into it, you come right away to this fact.

但如果你仔细研究一下，你就会立刻发现这个事实。

And this is not a big hidden secret or anything.

这不是什么大秘密或什么。

It shows up in news stories from time to time.

它不时出现在新闻报道中。

This flood of people pouring across the border-- the total increase in the number of illegal immigrants in the United States each year-- is zero.

这股越境涌入的人潮——美国每年非法移民人数的增长总量——为零。

I think he's describing an alternative reality.

我认为他正在描述另一种现实。

Or at best, a reality that existed over a decade ago.

或者充其量，这是十多年前就存在的现实。

This is Alex Nowrasteh.

我是亚历克斯·诺拉斯泰。

He's a conservative, a Republican, the immigration policy analyst at the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank.

他是一名保守派共和党人，是自由主义智库卡托研究所的移民政策分析师。

And so there's not a flood of illegal immigrants right now.

因此，目前并没有大量非法移民。

There isn't.

没有。

There are new illegal immigrants entering the country each year, but they are offset by the illegal immigrants who are leaving.

每年都有新的非法移民进入该国，但又被离开的非法移民所抵消。

There's about 350,000 in each direction each year.

每年每个方向大约有 350,000 人。

And it's been that way for years, since 2009.

自 2009 年以来，多年来一直如此。

In fact, between 2007 and 2009, at the start of the recession, when jobs dried up, the number of illegal immigrants in our country fell by about a million people.

事实上，在2007年至2009年经济衰退开始时，当就业岗位枯竭时，我国非法移民人数减少了约100万人。

And so why do so many people believe that we're being flooded with immigrants if, in fact, we are not being flooded with immigrants?

那么，为什么这么多人相信我们正在被移民淹没，而实际上我们并没有被移民淹没呢？

I ask that question, but of course, you know what the answer is.

我问这个问题，但你当然知道答案是什么。

I mean, the problem is out of control.

我的意思是，问题已经失控了。

We need a fence on the border like Israel has.

我们需要像以色列一样在边界上修建围栏。

All right, listen.

好吧，听着。

Look at the impact it's having on our health care system, our criminal justice system, our educational system.

看看它对我们的医疗保健系统、刑事司法系统和教育系统的影响。

That's Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity on Fox TV two years ago.

那是两年前福克斯电视台的安·库尔特和肖恩·汉尼提。

Stories about our out-of-control immigration system have been a staple of the right-wing media for years now.

多年来，有关我们失控的移民制度的故事一直是右翼媒体的主要内容。

Ann Coulter here is talking about President Obama's immigration policy, which includes some permissive things but, like I told my Uncle Lenny, he's ordered removals of more illegal immigrants from the country than any president-- 2.5 million.

安·库尔特在这里谈论的是奥巴马总统的移民政策，其中包括一些宽松的政策，但就像我告诉我的莱尼叔叔的那样，他下令从该国驱逐的非法移民数量比任何一位总统都多——250万。

Coulter characterizes his policy towards immigrants this way.

库尔特这样描述他的移民政策。

Obama just wants-- get 'em in.

奥巴马只是想让他们进来。

Just get 'em in.

只要让他们进来。

And in a matter of years, they'll be voting Democrat and collecting welfare.

几年后，他们将投票给民主党并领取福利。

Unfortunately, the country can't afford it.

可惜国家无力承担。

We have our own poor people we need to take care of.

我们有自己的穷人需要照顾。

And we're running out of money for that.

我们已经没钱了。

It's completely out of control.

完全失控了。

Researching all this-- I hadn't listened to Rush Limbaugh for a while, and listening I remembered, oh right, he just makes facts up.

研究这一切——我有一段时间没有听拉什·林博的讲话了，听着我想起，哦，对了，他只是编造事实。

Like, that's standard operating procedure on right-wing talk radio.

就像，这是右翼谈话电台的标准操作程序。

Here he is, trying to give a little immigration policy history.

他在这里试图讲述一些移民政策的历史。

You know, I still am amazed by the reaction I get from people when I tell them that there was zero immigration in this country from 1924 to 1965.

你知道，当我告诉人们从 1924 年到 1965 年这个国家的移民为零时，他们的反应仍然让我感到惊讶。

People don't know it.

人们不知道。

It's not reported.

没有报道。

It's never been part of history class, history education.

它从来不是历史课、历史教育的一部分。

41 years, essentially, there was no immigration.

41年来，基本上没有移民。

Try telling people that in the midst of this debate, and they won't believe you.

尝试在这场辩论中告诉人们这一点，他们不会相信你。

They'll think you're making it up.

他们会认为你是在弥补。

They'll think you're lying about it.

他们会认为你在撒谎。

Well, there's a good reason they think you're making it up and lying.

好吧，他们有充分的理由认为你在编造谎言。

Millions of people became legal immigrants during that period.

在此期间，数百万人成为合法移民。

8 million were granted status as permanent residents.

800 万人获得永久居民身份。

6.5 million became citizens, according to the federal government.

据联邦政府称，有 650 万人成为公民。

Alex Nowrasteh, the guy from the Cato Institute, contests all the big plot points that you hear on right-wing media about immigration.

来自卡托研究所的亚历克斯·诺拉斯特（Alex Nowrasteh）对右翼媒体上有关移民的所有重大情节提出了质疑。

That immigrants cause more crime than native born Americans, that they are a drain on taxpayers, and, of course, that they are flooding across the border.

移民造成的犯罪比土生土长的美国人更多，他们消耗了纳税人的钱，当然，他们还大量涌入边境。

I wonder what it was like for him to see those ideas propagated so often, so broadly, and taken so seriously by so many people.

我想知道当他看到这些想法如此频繁、如此广泛地传播并被如此多的人如此认真对待时，他有什么感觉。

Like, to the point where a candidate is proposing a wall and then stadiums cheer.

就像，候选人提议修建一堵墙，然后体育场欢呼雀跃。

It's incredibly depressing to see people base their policy opinions on things that just simply are not true, that are basically just myths.

看到人们将他们的政策观点建立在根本不真实、基本上只是神话的事情上，真是令人难以置信。

Like, to say otherwise, to state what the facts otherwise are, gets you labeled a traitor or gets you labeled sort of anti-American, or gets you labeled a socialist.

就像，否则，陈述事实，否则就会给你贴上叛徒的标签，或者给你贴上反美的标签，或者给你贴上社会主义者的标签。

All things which I am not.

所有我都不是的东西。

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

So it's depressing, and it's hard to fight against.

所以它是令人沮丧的，并且很难对抗。

Wait, wait.

等等，等等。

Just walk me through that.

请引导我完成这个过程。

Are you in a situation often where you're trying to present these facts and people who you feel like are your natural allies don't believe you?

您是否经常遇到这样的情况：当您试图陈述这些事实时，您认为是您天然盟友的人却不相信您？

Frequently.

频繁地。

Frequently.

频繁地。

I travel across the country all the time to speak to different groups.

我一直在全国各地旅行，与不同的群体交谈。

Out West in Arizona, in California, a lot of conservative and Republican clubs.

在亚利桑那州西部和加利福尼亚州，有很多保守派和共和党俱乐部。

And just the quantity of skepticism for well-established facts on this topic is astounding.

仅就这一主题而言，人们对既定事实的怀疑程度就令人震惊。

And are you often in the situation where people just think you're some sort of pinko, like you're working for Obama and Hillary Clinton?

你是否经常遇到这样的情况：人们只是认为你是某种粉红，就像你为奥巴马和希拉里·克林顿工作一样？

All the time.

一直以来。

Increasingly, all the time.

越来越多，一直如此。

When I go on the radio people, will call in and they'll say something to the effect of, oh, well, of course you believe that.

当我上广播时，人们会打来电话，他们会说一些大意是，哦，好吧，你当然相信这一点。

You also think we should make guns illegal.

你还认为我们应该将枪支定为非法。

You know, not knowing that I'm personally quite a gun nut and I have the exact opposite opinion.

你知道，我不知道我个人是个枪迷，而且我有完全相反的观点。

So it's like, a lot of political assumptions go into this.

所以这就像很多政治假设一样。

Ira Glass Alex used this phrase that I'd never heard before-- Patriotic Correctness.

艾拉·格拉斯·亚历克斯（Ira Glass Alex）用了我以前从未听过的这句话——爱国正确性。

It's like political correctness, but the right-wing version of that.

这就像政治正确，但是是右翼版本。

Like, if you say that there is no flood of immigrants coming across the border, well, that is just out of bounds.

就像，如果你说没有大量移民越过边境，那么，这是超出范围的。

That's not something you say.

那不是你说的。

You are not patriotically correct.

你不爱国正确。

So people do not even give him a chance.

所以人们连机会都不给他。

I think that's because politics, at some level, is more than the sum of facts.

我认为这是因为政治在某种程度上不仅仅是事实的总和。

It's an identity.

这是一个身份。

You know, you're a Republican or you're a Democrat, and then there's a whole set of stories and beliefs that go with that identity.

你知道，你是共和党人还是民主党人，然后有一整套与这个身份相关的故事和信仰。

And facts do not have much power against a set of beliefs.

事实对于反对一套信念并没有太大的力量。

Those of us in the fact business-- our facts are puny compared to that.

我们这些从事事实行业的人——与此相比，我们的事实是微不足道的。

Act Two: Judges with Grudges Ira Glass Act two, Judges with Grudges.

第二幕：心怀怨恨的法官 艾拉·格拉斯 第二幕，心怀怨恨的法官。

So let's turn now, in this election year, to the story of one little referendum on one state ballot.

因此，现在让我们在这个选举年，谈谈针对一张州选票进行一次小型公投的故事。

Here's how we heard about it.

我们是这样听说的。

A few years ago we devoted an entire episode of our program to the story of this judge in Georgia, a woman named Amanda Williams.

几年前，我们用一整集的节目讲述了佐治亚州这位法官的故事，她是一位名叫阿曼达·威廉姆斯的女性。

Judge Williams had a history of doing things that it seemed like judges just should not do.

威廉姆斯法官有做法官不应该做的事情的历史。

For instance, she put a teenager named Lindsey Dills into solitary confinement for an indefinite period of time.

例如，她将一名名叫林赛·迪尔斯（Lindsey Dills）的青少年无限期单独监禁。

Indefinite, like, until further notice.

无限期，直到另行通知。

No end date.

没有结束日期。

No access to a lawyer.

无法联系律师。

Lindsey told me--

林赛告诉我——

I cried a lot.

我哭了很多次。

Pretty much all the time I was crying.

我几乎一直在哭。

I was like, how is this happening?

我当时想，这是怎么发生的？

How is this ethical?

这如何符合道德？

Where am I?

我在哪里？

Like, am I in a foreign country?

比如，我是在国外吗？

Have I killed someone that I don't know about?

我杀了一个我不认识的人吗？

Like, how does what I did merit that type of treatment?

比如，我的所作所为如何值得受到这种待遇？

But there's nothing I can do about it, because I can't even use the phone.

但我对此无能为力，因为我什至无法使用电话。

I can't even send a letter.

我什至不能寄信。

Finally, during this confinement, Lindsey tried to kill herself.

最后，在这次监禁期间，林赛试图自杀。

We attempted to interviewed Judge Williams about this and some other issues, but she declined to comment on those issues.

我们试图就这个问题和其他一些问题采访威廉姆斯法官，但她拒绝对这些问题发表评论。

So while I was working on that story, an official commission in Georgia that is charged with investigating judicial ethics violations was also looking into Judge Williams.

因此，当我在研究这个故事时，佐治亚州负责调查司法道德违规行为的官方委员会也在调查威廉姆斯法官。

The commission later filed a 14-count ethics complaint against her.

该委员会随后对她提出了 14 项道德投诉。

Shortly after that, Judge William stepped down from the bench.

不久之后，威廉法官从法官席上走下来。

The commission that filed those charges-- before we did that story, I didn't even know anything like this existed, but all states have them.

提出这些指控的委员会——在我们报道这个故事之前，我什至不知道这样的事情存在，但所有州都有这样的指控。

Sometimes they're called JQCs, for Judicial Qualifications Commissions-- that's what the one in Georgia is called-- and they are the way that we as a country have come up with for getting rid of judges who do bad things.

有时它们被称为 JQC，即司法资格委员会——这就是佐治亚州的名称——它们是我们作为一个国家为摆脱做坏事的法官而提出的方式。

Georgia's JQC seemed pretty impressive.

佐治亚州的 JQC 看起来相当令人印象深刻。

They have a tiny staff, seven members, who work pro bono.

他们的员工人数很少，只有七名成员，他们无偿工作。

They are not paid.

他们没有报酬。

And in the past decade, in addition to Judge Williams, over 60 judges in Georgia have stepped down after being investigated.

在过去的十年里，除了威廉姆斯法官之外，佐治亚州还有60多名法官在受到调查后辞职。

So we did that story years ago.

所以我们几年前就做过这个故事。

And then a few months ago, one of my sources in Georgia called me to say, guess what?

几个月前，我在佐治亚州的一位线人打电话给我说，你猜怎么着？

Lawmakers in Georgia were trying to neuter the JQC, and the whole thing was going to be on the ballot this fall.

佐治亚州的立法者正试图压制 JQC，整个事情将在今年秋天进行投票。

And, OK, I know that state-level politics can be kind of nutty sometimes, but my question was, OK, here's an example of a government agency doing a good job.

好吧，我知道州级政治有时可能有点疯狂，但我的问题是，好吧，这是一个政府机构做得很好的例子。

It would seem like a very low cost.

这看起来成本非常低。

Like, how can something like that happen, right?

就像，怎么会发生这样的事情，对吧？

Like, why was this on the ballot?

比如，为什么这个会出现在选票上？

It seemed like the only people who would benefit from weakening the JQC would be bad judges.

似乎唯一能从削弱 JQC 中受益的人就是糟糕的法官。

Like, that is not a big constituency.

就像，这不是一个大选区。

Like, who's going to vote for that in a democracy?

就像，在民主国家谁会投票支持这一点？

Well, one of our producers, Dave Kestenbaum, flew to Atlanta to figure out what was going on.

好吧，我们的制作人之一戴夫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (Dave Kestenbaum) 飞往亚特兰大了解发生了什么事。

A quick warning to podcast and internet listeners.

对播客和互联网听众的快速警告。

There is some language in the story that we have un-beeped here in the internet version of our show.

故事中有一些语言我们在节目的网络版本中未发出提示音。

If you prefer a beeped version of our program, go to our website.

如果您喜欢我们程序的蜂鸣声版本，请访问我们的网站。

To understand this referendum, you first need a little background on Georgia's JQC, and just how aggressive it's been at going after judges.

要了解这次公投，您首先需要了解一下佐治亚州 JQC 的背景，以及它对法官的攻击有多积极。

More than anyone, the person who probably embodies the boldness and zeal of the mission is Richard Hyde.

理查德·海德（Richard Hyde）可能比任何人都更能体现这一使命的勇气和热情。

Hyde is a commission member.

海德是委员会成员。

He was their paid investigator for a decade.

十年来，他一直是他们的受薪调查员。

I've heard him describe himself as "the point of the spear," and once at a legislative hearing under oath, "the turd in the punchbowl."

我听他形容自己是“矛尖”，有一次在宣誓的立法听证会上，他形容自己是“潘趣酒碗里的粪便”。

When I asked him about the 60 judges that had resigned, and that that seemed like a lot, he shrugged.

当我问他关于已辞职的 60 名法官的情况时，他耸了耸肩，因为这似乎很多。

Georgia judges are no different than judges around the country.

佐治亚州的法官与全国各地的法官没有什么不同。

What is different is the way we investigate judges.

不同的是我们调查法官的方式。

Hyde calls it "the Georgia method." He's traveled to Ukraine to train officials there how to do it.

海德称之为“佐治亚方法”。他曾前往乌克兰培训那里的官员如何做到这一点。

Basically, they'll get some tip about something a judge may have done, they'll investigate the hell out of it, and if they find something, they'll confront the judge.

基本上，他们会得到一些关于法官可能做过的事情的线索，他们会调查到底，如果他们发现了什么，他们就会与法官对质。

Hyde says he'll explain that the judge has the right to a public trial, but then he'll just say this--

海德说他会解释法官有权进行公开审判，但随后他就会这样说——

Judge, given the nature of the allegations, if true, what do you think the appropriate sanction from the commission should be?

法官，考虑到指控的性质，如果属实，您认为委员会应该采取什么适当的制裁？

And about 90 percent of the time, those judges would say, I think it is time that I leave.

大约 90% 的情况下，那些法官会说，我认为是时候离开了。

Honestly, I can't tell if that question is some high-minded way of trying to engage a judge's inner sense of duty, or just a fancy version of, we can do this the easy way or the hard way.

老实说，我无法判断这个问题是否是某种试图激发法官内心责任感的高尚方式，或者只是一个奇特的版本，我们可以通过简单的方法或困难的方法来做到这一点。

Judges are powerful people, but Hyde is not easily intimidated.

法官都是有权有势的人，但海德却不容易被吓倒。

He used to be a street cop.

他曾经是一名街头警察。

Back then he would tow the cars of state lawmakers who had double-parked near the state capitol.

当时，他会拖走在州议会大厦附近并排停放的州议员的汽车。

Once, he shot an escaped chimpanzee who was attacking people on a street.

有一次，他射杀了一只在街上袭击行人的逃跑黑猩猩。

He felt bad about that.

他对此感觉很糟糕。

In the Atlanta school testing scandal where teachers were doctoring students' test scores, it was Hyde who got an elementary school teacher to wear a wire, which broke the whole thing open.

在亚特兰大学校考试丑闻中，老师们篡改学生的考试成绩，海德让一名小学老师戴上了钢丝，这才把整个事情搞砸了。

One news story quoted someone saying they would "rather have a wasting disease than to be investigated by Hyde." He's just so relentless.

一则新闻报道援引某人的话称，他们“宁愿患上一种消耗性疾病，也不愿接受海德的调查”。他就是这么无情。

But Hyde says the JQC is not out to get judges.

但海德表示，JQC 并不是要聘请法官。

They're just trying to protect the public.

他们只是想保护公众。

If a judge slips up, they try to work things out.

如果法官犯了错误，他们会尽力解决问题。

Here's an example of that.

这是一个例子。

When I went to interview Hyde, he'd brought along a transcript of a case they'd had to look into.

当我去采访海德时，他带来了一份他们必须调查的案件的笔录。

It's a murder case, and the defendant is refusing to use a lawyer.

这是一起谋杀案，被告拒绝聘请律师。

Just refusing.

只是拒绝。

He starts actually swearing at the judge, using profanity.

他开始用脏话咒骂法官。

The judge tries to reason with him, and then this happens.

法官试图与他讲道理，然后就发生了这种情况。

I had Hyde read this part.

我让海德读了这一部分。

The judge-- listen to me.

法官——听我说。

The defendant-- fuck you.

被告——操你妈的。

Listen to me.

听我说。

The defendant-- go fuck yourself.

被告——去他妈的吧。

The judge-- I'm finding you in contempt of court.

法官——我认为你藐视法庭。

I don't care.

我不在乎。

I know you don't, and I sentence you to 20 days for that.

我知道你不这样做，我因此判处你 20 天监禁。

And if you say anything else, I'm going to add 20 days for everything you say.

如果你说别的什么，我会为你所说的一切加上 20 天。

The defendant-- fuck you.

被告——操你妈的。

The judge-- 40 days.

法官——40天。

60 days.

60 天。

The defendant-- go fuck yourself.

被告——去他妈的吧。

The judge-- a year.

法官——一年。

The defendant-- your mama.

被告——你的妈妈。

The judge-- 10 years.

法官——10年。

The defendant-- suck my dick.

被告——吸我的鸡鸡。

The judge-- you know something?

法官——你知道什么吗？

This is going to be an interesting trial.

这将是一次有趣的试验。

The defendant threatens to kill the judge's family, and the judge just kind of loses it.

被告威胁要杀死法官的家人，法官有点不知所措。

When the defendant says he's going to masturbate in court, the judge says, why don't you do that right now?

当被告说他要在法庭上自慰时，法官说，你为什么不现在就这么做呢？

Do it now.

现在就做吧。

Do it now.

现在就做吧。

Hyde says the judge had a stellar record before this, so the JQC, when it heard about it, did what it often does.

海德表示，这位法官在此之前有着出色的记录，因此 JQC 在听说此事后，做了它经常做的事情。

It had the judge in for a little talk, to discuss what had happened and how to avoid it again.

它让法官进行了简短的谈话，讨论发生了什么以及如何避免再次发生。

They publicly reprimanded him and the judge went back to being a judge.

他们公开谴责他，法官又恢复了法官身份。

But Hyde says there are more extreme cases.

但海德表示还有更极端的情况。

Like the time a judge, in court, took a gun out and told the witness she was, quote, "killing her case and might as well shoot her lawyer." And then there was this other time.

就像有一次，法官在法庭上拿出枪，告诉证人，她“要毁掉她的案子，还不如开枪射杀她的律师”。然后还有一次。

An attorney said that a judge hearing her case had sexually harassed her, at one point leaving her a phone message in which he, the judge, identified himself as Santa Claus and said the following, "hey, hey, hey, little girl.

一名律师表示，审理她案件的一名法官对她进行了性骚扰，有一次给她留下了一条电话留言，其中法官称自己是圣诞老人，并说了以下的话：“嘿，嘿，嘿，小女孩。

Want to sit on Santa's face?" The woman gave the recording of that message to Richard Hyde, and Hyde went out to talk to the judge.

想坐在圣诞老人的脸上吗？”这名女子将这条信息的录音交给了理查德·海德，海德出去与法官交谈。

I met with him at his courthouse.

我在他的法院见到了他。

And he's got an office full of people doing whatever it was that was going on, and I identified myself and asked him if we could talk in private.

他的办公室里挤满了人，他们都在做着正在发生的事情，我表明了自己的身份，并问他我们是否可以私下交谈。

So we walked outside, and I'm asking him questions about, have you ever sexually harassed any of the women in front of you?

所以我们走到外面，我问他一些问题，你有没有性骚扰过你面前的任何一位女性？

Did you ever make any sexual demands?

你曾经提出过任何性要求吗？

Did you ever leave a message on somebody's voicemail inappropriately?

您是否曾经不恰当地在某人的语音信箱上留言过？

He denied all of that.

他否认了这一切。

So I said, well, then we have a problem because somebody is lying to me.

所以我说，好吧，那么我们就有问题了，因为有人对我撒谎。

Either the complainant or you are lying.

投诉人或您都在撒谎。

So I played-- we sat in my truck, and I played the recording, and he listened to it.

所以我演奏了——我们坐在我的卡车里，我播放了录音，他听了。

What was his reaction when you played him the voicemail?

当你给他播放语音信箱时，他的反应是什么？

He just told you he didn't do it.

他只是告诉你他没有这么做。

He became very emotional.

他变得非常情绪化。

He wept.

他哭了。

He walked in his office, got a piece of stationery out and hand-wrote a letter to the governor, resigning and agreeing never to be a judge again.

他走进办公室，拿出一张信纸，手写了一封给州长的信，辞职并同意不再担任法官。

Dave Kestenbaum Before we get to why some in the legislature wanted to dismantle and remake the JQC, it's interesting to see how badly they wanted to change it.

Dave Kestenbaum：在我们了解为什么立法机关中的一些人想要拆除并改造 JQC 之前，有趣的是，看看他们有多么强烈地想要改变它。

This is not an easy thing to do.

这不是一件容易的事。

In Georgia, like in a lot of states, the Judicial Qualifications Commission, this entity with the power to remove judges for unethical behavior, is written into the Constitution.

在佐治亚州，与许多州一样，司法资格委员会这个有权罢免不道德行为法官的实体已被写入宪法。

One lawyer who helped put it there-- this was back in the '70s-- told me it was put in the Constitution expressly to avoid political tampering.

一位帮助将其写入宪法的律师（那是在 70 年代）告诉我，将其写入宪法是为了避免政治篡改。

People make a basic separation of powers argument.

人们提出了基本的权力分立论点。

Keep the JQC independent.

保持 JQC 独立。

If lawmakers got their hands on it, they might pressure JQC members to drop cases against their friends, or go after a judge they don't like.

如果立法者掌握了这一权力，他们可能会向 JQC 成员施压，要求其放弃针对其朋友的案件，或者追究他们不喜欢的法官。

But this past January, one Friday afternoon, House Resolution 1113 was introduced, a bill proposing an amendment to the Constitution that would abolish the JQC and allow lawmakers to remake it however they saw fit.

但今年 1 月的一个星期五下午，众议院第 1113 号决议被提出，该法案提出了一项宪法修正案，将废除 JQC 并允许立法者以他们认为合适的方式重新制定它。

Lester Tate, at the time a member of the JQC, says he'd pulled into his driveway when someone called with the news.

时任 JQC 成员的莱斯特·泰特 (Lester Tate) 表示，当有人打电话告知这一消息时，他把车停进了自己的车道。

Tate was furious.

泰特非常愤怒。

It seemed like a straight-up power grab.

这看起来像是一场直接的权力争夺。

He told me he saw HR 1113 as an act of war.

他告诉我，他将 HR 1113 视为战争行为。

Clearly it was.

显然是的。

You know, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, we had no knowledge that it was coming.

你知道，当日本轰炸珍珠港时，我们并不知道它即将到来。

Nothing's been said about this to anybody, and then all of a sudden you introduce a bill like this, I think it's pretty clear that a sneak attack has been launched.

没有人对任何人说过这件事，然后突然提出这样的法案，我认为很明显已经发动了偷袭。

Well, no ships were sunk in the process, but the analogy, I think, still holds true.

好吧，在此过程中没有船只沉没，但我认为这个类比仍然成立。

There's one little detail worth pointing out here.

这里有一个小细节值得指出。

It gets mentioned in a lot of the local news coverage.

许多当地新闻报道都提到了它。

One of the sponsors of the bill is a representative named Johnny Caldwell.

该法案的发起人之一是一位名叫约翰尼·考德威尔的代表。

Before being a lawmaker, Caldwell was a judge.

在成为立法者之前，考德威尔是一名法官。

The judge who was accused of leaving the Santa Claus "sit on my face" voicemail.

被指控留下圣诞老人的法官“坐在我脸上”的语音信箱。

Representative Caldwell declined our request for an interview.

考德威尔代表拒绝了我们的采访请求。

House Resolution 1113, by Representative--

众议院第 1113 号决议，由代表——

Altering the Constitution is a big deal.

修改宪法是一件大事。

For starters, any proposed change has to be approved by 2/3 of the House and 2/3 of the Senate.

首先，任何拟议的变更都必须得到众议院 2/3 议员和参议院 2/3 议员的批准。

Then the voters have to approve it as well.

然后选民也必须批准它。

Republicans introduced the measure, and they had the votes in the House.

共和党提出了这项措施，并在众议院获得了投票权。

But in the Senate, it was tight.

但在参议院，情况很紧张。

If all the Republicans voted for it, the bill would pass.

如果所有共和党人都投票支持，该法案就会通过。

But here they had a problem.

但这里他们遇到了一个问题。

A man named Josh McKoon.

一个名叫乔什·麦昆的人。

McKoon is a Republican who seems to enjoy not voting Republican sometimes.

麦库恩是一名共和党人，他有时似乎很喜欢不投票给共和党。

He's loved politics since he was a kid.

他从小就热爱政治。

Favorite President, Calvin Coolidge.

最喜欢的总统，卡尔文·柯立芝。

McKoon is chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and he thought taking the JQC out of the Constitution, letting politicians remake it however they wanted, sounded like a terrible idea.

麦库恩是参议院司法委员会主席，他认为将 JQC 从宪法中剔除，让政客们按照自己的意愿重新制定宪法，听起来是一个糟糕的主意。

And I just remember somebody mentioning, hey, this is coming up.

我只记得有人提到，嘿，这即将到来。

And I kind of dismissed it because it seemed so absurd.

我有点驳回它，因为它看起来很荒谬。

Chair recognizes Senator 29.

主席认可参议员 29。

Josh Mckoon Thank you, Mr. President.

乔什·麦库恩 谢谢你，总统先生。

This is McKoon on one of the last nights of the legislative session for the year.

这是麦库恩在今年立法会议最后一个晚上的讲话。

The bill, at this point, has failed to pass once, but it's coming up for another vote.

目前，该法案尚未通过一次，但即将进行另一次投票。

McKoon doesn't shout.

麦昆没有喊叫。

His tones is more, (INCREDULOUS) seriously?

他的语气更加，（难以置信）是认真的吗？

Um, it's just really hard to wrap my brain around the fact that we are going to do this.

嗯，我真的很难接受我们要这样做的事实。

We ought to think long and hard before we say we're going to abolish the independent constitutional agency that has overseen judicial ethics in this state for the last four decades.

在我们说要废除过去四十年来监督本州司法道德的独立宪法机构之前，我们应该深思熟虑。

McKoon is particularly upset about how the legislature would remake the JQC.

麦库恩对立法机关如何重塑 JQC 感到特别不安。

The JQC has seven members, and lawmakers want to give the Speaker of the House and the president of the Senate the power to pick four of the seven seats.

JQC 有七名成员，立法者希望赋予众议院议长和参议院议长在七个席位中选择四个席位的权力。

Currently they pick zero.

目前他们选择零。

I looked into what other states do.

我研究了其他州的做法。

According to the Center for Judicial Ethics, only one state gives lawmakers the power to pick a majority of its JQC members.

根据司法道德中心的说法，只有一个州赋予立法者挑选大部分 JQC 成员的权力。

We are taking, literally, the only bright spot in the network of ethics and conflict of interest laws in state government and we are throwing them in the garbage.

从字面上看，我们正在采取州政府道德和利益冲突法律网络中的唯一亮点，然后将它们扔进垃圾桶。

And for what?

为了什么？

McKoon began to suspect that this was all about personal gripes, or lawmakers who are friends with judges who the JQC had investigated.

麦库恩开始怀疑这一切都是出于个人恩怨，或者是立法者与 JQC 调查过的法官的朋友。

The Speaker of the House, in particular, seemed unusually determined to overhaul this little commission.

尤其是众议院议长，似乎异常坚决地要彻底改革这个小委员会。

This became very clear in the final days of the session.

这一点在会议的最后几天变得非常明显。

Time was running out to pass the bill.

通过该法案的时间已经不多了。

McKoon says he and the other Republican senators got pulled into this urgent meeting.

麦库恩说，他和其他共和党参议员被拉参加了这次紧急会议。

We were told that the Speaker had made it clear, if we did not pass the JQC constitutional amendment, that he would, quote, "shut the building down." Meaning, the House would not consider any Senate legislation.

我们被告知，议长已经明确表示，如果我们不通过 JQC 宪法修正案，他将“关闭大楼”。这意味着众议院不会考虑参议院的任何立法。

Until the JQC got passed.

直到JQC通过。

Josh Mckoon Correct.

乔什·麦库恩 正确。

Dave Kestenbaum Two days before the end of the session-- it's after 9:00 PM-- the bill comes up for a final vote.

Dave Kestenbaum 会议结束前两天，即晚上 9:00 之后，该法案将进行最终投票。

--is agreed to.

——已同意。

All those in favor, vote aye.

所有赞成的人，投赞成票。

Those opposed, no. The Secretary will unlock the machine.

反对的人，不。秘书将解锁机器。

[BELL RINGS] Dave Kestenbaum A minute later, the bill narrowly passes.

[铃声响起] Dave Kestenbaum 一分钟后，法案以微弱优势通过。

If you look at the breakdown, you can see what happened.

如果您查看细分，您就可以看到发生了什么。

One Democrat crossed party lines and voted in favor.

一位民主党人跨越党派界限投了赞成票。

A woman named Donzella James.

一个名叫唐泽拉·詹姆斯的女人。

She declined to talk with us, but a newspaper reporter who was in the room, Greg Bluestein with The Atlanta Journal-Constitution , says it was totally clear what had happened.

她拒绝与我们交谈，但当时在场的一位报纸记者、《亚特兰大宪法报》的格雷格·布鲁斯坦 (Greg Bluestein) 表示，发生的事情非常清楚。

Republicans had made a trade.

共和党人做了一笔交易。

They'd offered to support a bill that she'd been trying to get through for years, to turn the area where she lived into a city.

他们提出支持她多年来一直试图通过的一项法案，将她居住的地区变成一座城市。

The bill was to put a referendum on the ballot about it.

该法案旨在对此进行全民公投。

Bluestein says he knows this trade happened because a Republican, at this point, walked up and just started narrating what was going on.

布鲁斯坦说，他知道这次交易发生了，因为此时一名共和党人走上前来，开始讲述发生的事情。

He said, she stuck with us, now we'll stick with her.

他说，她坚持我们，现在我们也坚持她。

So this was-- this was-- there was no effort to hide that there was horse trading going on here.

所以这是——这是——没有人试图隐瞒这里正在进行马匹交易。

Like, you watched it happen.

就像，你亲眼目睹了这一切的发生。

Greg Bluestein Oh, literally watched it happen.

格雷格·布鲁斯坦（Greg Bluestein）哦，亲眼目睹了这一切的发生。

And had people openly talk about it.

并让人们公开谈论它。

In case there was any doubt, the very next bill brought up was for the city referendum, which passed easily.

如果有任何疑问，下一个提出的法案是城市公投，很容易就通过了。

Lawmakers were willing to create a city to get control of the JQC.

立法者愿意建立一座城市来控制 JQC。

If you're wondering why this was such a priority, why the Speaker of the House seemed so determined to push this through, Josh McKoon, the Republican, wondered that too.

如果你想知道为什么这是一个优先事项，为什么众议院议长似乎如此坚定地推动这一点，共和党人乔什·麦库恩也想知道。

So we asked around.

于是我们四处打听。

You know, why is this such a high-profile-- why is this thing moving so quickly?

你知道，为什么这件事如此引人注目——为什么这件事进展得如此之快？

And the answer was, this is a priority of the Speaker of the House.

答案是，这是众议院议长的首要任务。

And then when you would say, well, why does he care about the function in the JQC?

然后你会说，好吧，他为什么关心 JQC 中的功能？

It was, well, this all goes back to his conflict with the state bar.

好吧，这一切都可以追溯到他与州律师协会的冲突。

The state bar.

州酒吧。

This takes a little explaining, but stick with me.

这需要一些解释，但请听我说。

The speaker has a longstanding, very heated feud with the state bar.

这位议长与州酒吧有着长期的、非常激烈的争执。

The bar has filed charges against him that could get him disbarred.

该律师事务所已对他提出指控，这可能会导致他被取消律师资格。

I've read some of the back and forth.

我读过一些来回的内容。

It sounds like people yelling at each other in the most formal language possible.

听起来就像人们用最正式的语言互相大喊大叫。

Like, "it is clear that absurdity is no prohibition on the actions of the state bar."

就像，“很明显，荒谬并不禁止国家律师的行为。”

What does all this have to do with the JQC?

这一切和JQC有什么关系呢？

The bar currently gets to a appoint three members of the JQC.

该律师协会目前任命了三名 JQC 成员。

If these changes go through, the bar will get zero.

如果这些改变得以实现，则该条将变为零。

To McKoon, it looked like revenge.

对麦库恩来说，这看起来就像是复仇。

The House Speaker declined to comment.

众议院议长拒绝发表评论。

This is the story I initially heard, at least, about how petty politics, personal gripes, and a Santa Claus voicemail were threatening to gut an institution that was doing its job, and doing it quite well.

至少，这是我最初听到的故事，讲述了琐碎的政治、个人的抱怨和圣诞老人​​的语音信箱如何威胁着摧毁一个正在履行职责并且做得很好的机构。

It's the kind of story that one side of an issue tells itself all the time, I think.

我认为，这就是问题的一方面一直在讲述的故事。

And when you hear something like that, it can be hard to imagine any other version.

当你听到这样的话时，很难想象还有其他版本。

But, of course, there is another side.

但是，当然，还有另一面。

And on that side, another story involving the very same events.

另一方面，另一个故事也涉及同样的事件。

So come with me.

所以跟我来吧。

Let's cross over to that other side.

让我们穿越到另一边。

Let's try to get to the bottom of this one ballot measure in one state.

让我们尝试在一个州了解这一单次投票措施的真相。

I am here so that the JQC never again abuses its power to the detriment of those who serve and the public we all serve.

我来这里是为了让 JQC 不再滥用权力，损害服务者和我们所服务的公众。

This is Cynthia Becker testifying at a recent hearing before lawmakers.

这是辛西娅·贝克尔在立法者最近举行的听证会上作证。

Until recently, she was a judge.

直到最近，她还是一名法官。

And in the alternate narrative of this story, she's the main character.

在这个故事的替代叙述中，她是主角。

I heard with dismay a former director testify last week, between 2010 and 2014, 50 judges were removed.

上周，我沮丧地听到一位前任主任作证，2010 年至 2014 年间，有 50 名法官被免职。

We are not trophies.

我们不是奖杯。

We are not scalps.

我们不是头皮。

That's not a good start.

这不是一个好的开始。

Becker was investigated by the JQC and was visibly furious about how it all went down.

贝克尔接受了 JQC 的调查，他显然对事情的进展感到愤怒。

She says she was called in to talk to JQC members about some complaint, but she wasn't told what it was.

她说她被叫去与 JQC 成员讨论一些投诉，但她没有被告知具体是什么。

Turns out, there was a question about whether she had denied somebody bail-- a former school superintendent who ended up spending four days in jail.

事实证明，有一个问题是她是否拒绝了某人的保释——一名前学校校长，最终入狱四天。

She says when she got to the JQC one of the members just started yelling at her.

她说，当她到达 JQC 时，一名成员开始对她大喊大叫。

One commission member was so over the top that, if he had conducted himself that way in a court room, deputies would have escorted him out of the courtroom.

一名委员会成员太过分了，如果他在法庭上这样做，代表们就会护送他离开法庭。

He was standing, he was red-faced, he was pointing his finger at me, lecturing me--

他站着，红着脸，用手指着我，教训我——

Who was that?

那是谁？

Cynthia Becker That was Mr. Tate.

辛西娅·贝克尔 那是泰特先生。

Lester Tate, the commission member you heard comparing the JQC bill to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

莱斯特·泰特 (Lester Tate)，你听说过的委员会成员，将 JQC 法案与珍珠港袭击进行了比较。

According to notes from that meeting, at one point, Judge Becker started weeping.

根据那次会议的记录，贝克尔法官有一次开始哭泣。

The whole thing, she says, was recorded without her knowledge.

她说，整个事情是在她不知情的情况下被记录下来的。

Another judge who testified said that the same JQC member, Lester Tate, behaved improperly in his court.

另一位出庭作证的法官表示，同一名 JQC 成员莱斯特·泰特 (Lester Tate) 在法庭上行为不当。

According to an affidavit by a court clerk Tate, quote, "turned bright red all over and got extremely upset." A month later, Richard Hyde, the crusading investigator you heard at the beginning of the story, showed up demanding to see documents.

根据法庭书记员泰特的证词，“他的脸变成了鲜红色，并且非常沮丧。”一个月后，你在故事开头听到的十字军调查员理查德·海德出现，要求查看文件。

A court clerk wrote, quote, "he was questioning me like a drill sergeant in the army.

一名法庭书记员写道，“他像军队中的教官一样审问我。

He almost brought me to tears.

他几乎让我流泪。

I have never had anyone treat me like this." The judge, Mitchell Scoggins, says Hyde then went through his things.

我从来没有人这样对待过我。”法官米切尔·斯科金斯 (Mitchell Scoggins) 说，海德随后检查了他的事情。

the reason I know he did is because we pulled our security camera video, and we could see Mr. Hyde in there with my clerk-- just those two people-- going through paperwork on my desk.

我知道他这样做的原因是因为我们调出了安全摄像头视频，我们可以看到海德先生和我的职员——就这两个人——正在检查我办公桌上的文书工作。

And I didn't appreciate that.

我并不欣赏这一点。

I didn't like that at all.

我一点也不喜欢这样。

Lester Tate denies doing anything wrong in either case.

莱斯特·泰特否认在这两种情况下有任何不当行为。

In fact, he's resigned in protest over this whole effort to remake the JQC.

事实上，他辞职是为了抗议重塑 JQC 的整个努力。

Richard Hyde told me things did get heated when he came by court that day, but here's what he said about searching that judge's desk.

理查德·海德告诉我，那天他到法庭时，事情确实变得很激烈，但以下是他关于搜查法官办公桌的说法。

I looked through the papers on the public bench, yes.

我翻阅了公共席上的文件，是的。

That is not his bench.

那不是他的板凳。

That bench belongs to the people of this state.

这张长凳属于这个州的人民。

Those documents belong to the people of this state.

这些文件属于这个州的人民。

They were in plain view, they looked out of place, and I looked through them.

它们在众目睽睽之下，看起来格格不入，而我却透过它们看过去。

I make no apologies for that.

我对此并不道歉。

Richard Hyde has publicly said that the JQC owes a couple judges an apology for how their cases were handled-- but just a couple.

理查德·海德 (Richard Hyde) 曾公开表示，JQC 欠几位法官就其案件的处理方式道歉，但只是少数而已。

Which of those judges who step down do you really want back on the bench, he asks?

他问道，您真正希望哪位下台的法官重新担任法官？

Most of the complaints, he says, are just from a few people.

他说，大多数抱怨都来自少数人。

Those are the five empty beer cans in the back of a pickup truck going down a dirt road.

那是一辆小卡车后部的五个空啤酒罐，行驶在土路上。

Hyde was quick to say that the vast majority of judges do a fine job, under difficult circumstances.

海德很快表示，绝大多数法官在困难的情况下都做得很好。

But, he says, sitting up there in that black robe with the gavel, it can go to some people's heads.

但是，他说，当他穿着黑袍拿着木槌坐在那儿时，它可能会引起一些人的注意。

People stand up when they walk in the room, they stand up when they leave.

人们走进房间时站起来，离开房间时也站起来。

They bring them coffee, they laugh at their dumb jokes.

他们给他们端来咖啡，他们因愚蠢的笑话而大笑。

They tell them how smart, thin, tall, and funny they are.

他们告诉他们自己是多么聪明、瘦弱、高大和有趣。

It's black robe syndrome, is what I call it.

我称之为黑袍综合症。

Dave Kestenbaum One way to summarize the criticism of the JQC is that some of its members have fallen prey to their own version of black robe syndrome.

戴夫·凯斯滕鲍姆 (Dave Kestenbaum) 总结对 JQC 的批评的一种方式是，它的一些成员已经陷入了他们自己版本的黑袍综合症。

After all, there is the power of being a judge.

毕竟，有审判者的权力。

But then there is the power of judging the judges.

但还有审判法官的权力。

Even after hearing these stories, it wasn't clear to me why lawmakers felt the need to amend the Constitution and give themselves control over the JQC.

即使在听到这些故事之后，我也不清楚为什么立法者认为有必要修改宪法并赋予自己对 JQC 的控制权。

I didn't see how that would fix whatever problems there were.

我不知道这将如何解决存在的任何问题。

As I've said, the Speaker of the House wouldn't talk.

正如我所说，众议院议长不会说话。

Neither would the representative who allegedly left the Santa Claus voicemail.

据称留下圣诞老人语音信箱的代表也不会。

So I found someone else.

所以我找到了别人。

I'm Wendall Willard.

我是温德尔·威拉德。

I'm a state representative, state of Georgia.

我是佐治亚州的州代表。

Next thing we're reading about is there's an indictment being taken out against Judge Williams.

我们接下来读到的是针对威廉姆斯法官的起诉书。

I said, wow, she must have really done something pretty drastic to have a felony indictment.

我说，哇，她一定做了一些非常激烈的事情才被指控重罪。

I looked this up.

我查了一下这个。

What she'd done, according to the indictment, was lie to the JQC.

根据起诉书，她的所作所为对 JQC 撒了谎。

It's a felony offense with possible jail time.

这是一项重罪，可能会被判入狱。

Is your position basically like, maybe it was correct that she stepped down for what she did, but the idea that she would--

你的立场基本上是这样的，也许她因自己所做的事情而辞职是正确的，但她会——

I'm not concerned about her stepping down.

我并不担心她下台。

It's the process-- what I call the due process--

这就是过程——我称之为正当程序——

Willard says these judges think they're coming in for an informal conversation, so it seems unfair to him that they can get charged with a felony if they misremember or mis-state something.

威拉德说，这些法官认为他们是来进行非正式谈话的，因此如果他们记错或误述某些事情，他们可能会被指控犯有重罪，这对他来说似乎不公平。

He says the whole point of these meetings is to try to work things out.

他说这些会议的目的就是努力解决问题。

Most judges just need a little counseling, like the judge who imploded under a barrage of F-bombs.

大多数法官只需要一点咨询，就像在连珠炮弹袭击下崩溃的法官一样。

If every judge who goes to talk to the JQC has to worry about being charged with a felony, what judge would ever come talk to them?

如果每个去 JQC 谈话的法官都必须担心被指控重罪，那么哪个法官会来和他们谈话呢？

He says the same thing that happened to Amanda Williams also happen to Judge Becker, the one who said she was yelled at and recorded without her knowledge.

他说，发生在阿曼达·威廉姆斯身上的同样的事情也发生在贝克尔法官身上，贝克尔法官说，她在不知情的情况下遭到了吼叫和录音。

She later faced six felony charges for making false statements in that meeting.

她后来因在那次会议上做出虚假陈述而面临六项重罪指控。

The charges were dropped, but in the end, she had to promise not to be a judge again.

指控被撤销，但最终她不得不承诺不再担任法官。

The JQC has changed its policy since then.

自那时起，JQC 改变了其政策。

It no longer records its meetings with judges.

它不再记录与法官的会议。

But Becker said she felt sucker-punched by the whole thing.

但贝克尔说，整件事让她感到很沮丧。

That is one segment of the concern that was growing.

这是日益增长的担忧之一。

Is that reason enough to, like, dismantle the whole JQ--

这个理由是否足以拆除整个 JQ——

I didn't say that was the reason alone, did I?

我没说这只是原因吧？

Did I?

我有吗？

We're not trying-- it's not a dismantling.

我们不是在尝试——这不是拆除。

I keep hearing that term used by the press.

我不断听到媒体使用这个词。

It is a reconstituting of the JQC.

这是 JQC 的重组。

And to do so is going to require a constitutional amendment.

为此，需要修改宪法。

I asked Willard if I could just run down the things his opponents say is happening here, to play the other side's narrative for him.

我问威拉德我是否可以把他的对手所说的这里发生的事情记下来，为他播放对方的叙述。

Actually, I had a whole list written out on a sheet of paper.

事实上，我在一张纸上写下了完整的清单。

I asked him why one of the co-sponsors is the guy who had allegedly left the Santa Claus voicemail.

我问他为什么共同发起人之一是据称留下圣诞老人语音信箱的人。

Willard said the co-sponsor thing-- that was kind of his fault.

威拉德说了共同发起人的事情——那是他的错。

He says he'd just gone out looking for legislators to sign on.

他说他刚刚出去寻找立法者签字。

Maybe the better part of valor would be to leave him off the bill, but I didn't think of it that way.

也许勇敢的更好的部分就是让他远离账单，但我不这么认为。

It just didn't come to mind as being that issue.

只是我没想到这是一个问题。

It was a pretty embarrassing thing.

这是一件相当尴尬的事情。

He'd left, like, a voicemail for an attorney telling her she could sit on his face.

他给一位律师留下了语音邮件，告诉她可以坐在他的脸上。

I don't know what the story is.

我不知道这个故事是什么。

I don't know want to know about it, either.

我也不知道，也不想知道。

I asked about the vote trading in the Senate.

我询问了参议院的投票交易情况。

He said, I don't know.

他说，我不知道。

That's the Senate's side.

那是参议院那边。

I look back at my paper.

我回头看看我的论文。

What else you got, he says?

他说，你还有什么？

What else you got?

你还有什么？

Dave Kestenbaum Uh, yeah.

戴夫·凯斯滕鲍姆 呃，是的。

I got a list.

我得到了一份清单。

Find something important you want to talk about.

找到一些你想谈论的重要事情。

OK.

好的。

Uh-- Wendall Willard I'm about through.

呃——温德尔·威拉德 我快结束了。

There are people who say the reason this was put in the Constitution was to keep it out of the hands of politicians, and you're undoing that.

有人说，将其写入宪法的原因是为了防止其落入政客手中，而你却在破坏这一点。

It's still in the Constitution.

它仍然存在于宪法中。

It's a constitutionally-created body.

这是一个依据宪法设立的机构。

[INAUDIBLE] we feel there's a way it has to be changed that will improve upon that.

[听不清]我们认为必须改变一种方法来改进这一点。

Which is to give the legislature power over more seats?

哪个是赋予立法机关更多席位的权力？

Give the legislature the right to make necessary changes.

赋予立法机关进行必要修改的权利。

You know, the legislature is made up of the people who elect them.

你知道，立法机关是由选举他们的人组成的。

We're not some animal out here, and we create other agencies and bodies all the time.

我们不是这里的某种动物，我们一直在创建其他机构和机构。

I can see how Willard sees things.

我能明白威拉德是如何看待事物的。

He thinks the JQC needs bigger fixes.

他认为 JQC 需要更大的修复。

And he figures, who better to fix it than us lawmakers?

他认为，还有谁比我们立法者更能解决这个问题呢？

People voted us into office.

人们投票让我们上任。

We are the people's representatives.

我们是人民的代表。

And voters will have the final say.

选民将拥有最终决定权。

This is going to be on the ballot next month, so people will have to decide which of these stories makes more sense to them.

这将在下个月进行投票，因此人们必须决定这些故事中哪个对他们更有意义。

Or maybe they'll just hear one of the stories.

或者也许他们只会听到其中一个故事。

That will make the decision easier.

这将使决定变得更容易。

Frankly, I can't imagine most voters even know what the JQC is.

坦率地说，我无法想象大多数选民甚至知道 JQC 是什么。

This referendum is not an example of democracy at its finest, though it's probably a pretty good example of how democracy actually is.

这次公投并不是民主最好的例子，尽管它可能是民主实际上的一个很好的例子。

Dave Kestenbaum is one of the producers of our program.

戴夫·凯斯滕鲍姆是我们节目的制作人之一。

Coming up, one of the stars of Hamilton sings the words that Barack Obama is not saying but might be thinking.

接下来，《汉密尔顿》的一位明星唱出了巴拉克·奥巴马没有说出来但可能在想的话。

We are not sure if he's thinking this.

我们不确定他是否在想这个。

We made this up.

这是我们编出来的。

That's a minute, from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

这是芝加哥公共广播电台的一分钟节目，我们的节目仍在继续。

Act Three: Aw, Do We NAFTA?

第三幕：哦，我们有北美自由贸易协定吗？

Ira Glass It's This American Life.

艾拉·格拉斯 这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Today's program, the sometimes-frightening chasm between the way the two sides in this election see everything.

今天的节目中，双方在这次选举中看待一切的方式之间有时存在令人恐惧的鸿沟。

We take stock.

我们盘点一下。

We have arrived at Act Three of our program.

我们已经到了我们计划的第三幕了。

Act Three, Aw, Do we NAFTA?

第三幕，哦，我们有北美自由贸易协定吗？

So the one big thing this year that it has felt like the presidential candidates are not disagreeing about is free trade.

因此，今年总统候选人认为没有异议的一件大事就是自由贸易。

But it's weird.

但这很奇怪。

Both parties used to agree free trade is good.

双方过去都认为自由贸易是好的。

This year, they seem to be agreeing it's bad.

今年，他们似乎都同意这很糟糕。

During the primaries this year, when Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump, and Hillary Clinton were out bad-mouthing deals like the TPP and free trade in general, I had this feeling, like, wait, is it supposed to be good or bad?

在今年的初选期间，当伯尼·桑德斯、唐纳德·特朗普和希拉里·克林顿对 TPP 和一般自由贸易等协议唱衰时，我有这样的感觉，比如，等等，这应该是好还是坏？

Like, I can't even tell anymore.

就像，我什至不能再告诉了。

Like, what happened?

比如，发生了什么？

I felt genuinely confused about what to think.

我真的很困惑该想什么。

Are these deals good or bad?

这些交易是好是坏？

And so I asked Jacob Goldstein from NPR's economics podcast Planet Money to come in and just help me briefly weigh the pros and cons of these deals.

因此，我请 NPR 经济播客 Planet Money 的雅各布·戈德斯坦 (Jacob Goldstein) 过来帮我简要权衡这些交易的利弊。

I'm here.

我在这儿。

I talked to a lot of economists.

我和很多经济学家交谈过。

I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about economic models of trade deals.

我半夜醒来，思考贸易协议的经济模型。

I like that I asked you to come in, and you heeded the call, and then you lost sleep over it.

我喜欢我邀请你进来，你听从了我的召唤，然后你就失眠了。

I-- it's true.

我——这是真的。

It's all true.

这都是真的。

Ira Glass That's so great and sad at the same time.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：这真是太棒了，同时又令人悲伤。

So, all right.

那么，好吧。

Let's start with the obvious downside of these trade deals.

让我们从这些贸易协议的明显缺点开始。

We lose jobs, as a country.

作为一个国家，我们失去了工作机会。

And the number that we hear when it comes to NAFTA is 700,000 jobs we've lost.

当谈到北美自由贸易协定时，我们听到的数字是我们失去了 70 万个工作岗位。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, 700,000 people is clearly a lot of people, right?

我的意思是，70万人显然是很多人吧？

It's football stadiums full of people.

这是挤满了人的足球场。

Yes.

是的。

Jacob Goldstein And if you are one of those people, NAFTA was really bad for you.

雅各布·戈尔茨坦（Jacob Goldstein） 如果你是这些人中的一员，北美自由贸易协定对你来说真的很糟糕。

So that's certainly true, and that's real.

所以这确实是真的，而且是真的。

If you zoom out a little bit-- I mean, one thing.

如果你缩小一点——我的意思是，有一件事。

So that number-- that 700,000 number is over about 15 years.

所以这个数字——700,000 个数字已经超过了大约 15 年。

OK.

好的。

Jacob Goldstein So that's 700,000 jobs over 15 years.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 (Jacob Goldstein) 那么，15 年内创造了 700,000 个工作岗位。

Just for context, the economy-- like, say, this year, is adding about 200,000 jobs a month.

就背景而言，经济——比如今年，每月增加约 200,000 个就业岗位。

200,000 jobs a month.

每月 200,000 个工作岗位。

So already this year, the US has added more than 700,000 jobs.

今年以来，美国已增加了超过 70 万个就业岗位。

So wait, wait, wait.

所以等等，等等，等等。

So I just want to be sure I've got these numbers right.

所以我只是想确保我得到的这些数字是正确的。

So we're adding, like, 200,000 jobs a month.

所以我们每个月增加大约 200,000 个工作岗位。

Yeah, a little less than that.

是的，比那少一点。

But about that, yeah.

但关于这一点，是的。

And this is, like, a crazy boom time and that's super unusual?

这是一个疯狂的繁荣时期，这是非常不寻常的吗？

I mean, it's a little high.

我的意思是，它有点高。

But, like, normal would be, like, I don't, 150,000.

但是，正常情况是，我不，150,000。

Something like that.

类似的事情。

130,000.

130,000。

So we're adding 200,000 a month right now, and this is 700,000 over 15 years.

所以我们现在每个月增加 200,000 个，15 年内增加了 700,000 个。

Yes.

是的。

And, I mean, to be clear, it doesn't mean that there are 700,000 fewer jobs in America than there would have been.

而且，我的意思是，需要明确的是，这并不意味着美国的就业机会比原本少了 70 万个。

It's not like a hole, right?

它不像一个洞，对吧？

These jobs went away and other new jobs were created.

这些工作岗位消失了，其他新的工作岗位又被创造出来。

Right.

正确的。

But the thing that we always hear-- and Donald Trump has said this many times-- is that the good jobs are gone.

但我们经常听到的是——唐纳德·特朗普已经说过很多次了——好工作已经消失了。

Like, the good high-paying factory jobs, those are gone.

比如，工厂里的高薪工作岗位已经消失了。

Making cars in Detroit-- that's gone.

在底特律制造汽车——那已经不复存在了。

And what we have instead are these kind of lousy lower-wage jobs.

而我们所拥有的却是这些糟糕的低薪工作。

That's true, and it's mostly not because of NAFTA.

确实如此，而且这主要不是因为北美自由贸易协定。

I mean, there are-- millions of factory jobs have gone away and, that's because of automation.

我的意思是，数以百万计的工厂工作岗位消失了，这是因为自动化。

Jobs for people with low skills are lower-paid partly because unions are weaker, so there are a lot of reasons it's been a really bad time to be a low-skilled worker in this country.

低技能工人的工作工资较低，部分原因是工会较弱，所以有很多原因，对于这个国家的低技能工人来说，现在是一个非常糟糕的时期。

Mostly not NAFTA.

大部分不是北美自由贸易协定。

So in other words, don't blame Hillary Clinton and NAFTA, blame the robots.

换句话说，不要责怪希拉里·克林顿和北美自由贸易协定，而要责怪机器人。

Yes.

是的。

Ira Glass OK.

艾拉·格拉斯 好的。

So that's the downside of NAFTA.

这就是北美自由贸易协定的缺点。

And what's the positive side to NAFTA?

北美自由贸易协定有哪些积极的一面？

So there's-- Ira Glass 'Cause we are not hearing much about that.

所以有——艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），因为我们对此了解不多。

No, it's true.

不，这是真的。

So there's two things.

所以有两件事。

I mean, this is true of trade deals in general.

我的意思是，一般贸易协议都是如此。

There's two big upsides.

有两大优点。

And one of them, when politicians are selling trade deals, they talk about, and that is, we get to sell more stuff to other countries, right?

其中之一，当政客们推销贸易协议时，他们会谈论，那就是，我们可以向其他国家出售更多的东西，对吗？

They lower their tariffs, we get to sell more stuff to them.

他们降低关税，我们可以向他们出售更多东西。

And has that worked out?

这成功了吗？

Jacob Goldstein Yeah.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 是的。

Yeah, we sell a lot more stuff to Mexico than we used to.

是的，我们向墨西哥出售的东西比以前多了很多。

OK.

好的。

Jacob Goldstein The other one-- the other one politicians almost never talk about, but it's huge in economics.

雅各布·戈德斯坦（Jacob Goldstein） 另一种——另一种政客几乎从不谈论，但它在经济学中意义重大。

It, like, goes all the way back to Adam Smith.

它可以追溯到亚当·斯密。

It is the central idea.

这是中心思想。

And that is, trade deals mean we get to buy stuff for cheaper.

也就是说，贸易协议意味着我们可以以更便宜的价格购买东西。

In other words, people in Mexico and China are making stuff with their lower wages, and then they sell it to us and it's cheaper to us.

换句话说，墨西哥和中国的人们用较低的工资制造东西，然后他们卖给我们，对我们来说更便宜。

Yes.

是的。

Ira Glass And so we live a little better because of that.

Ira Glass 因此我们的生活变得更好了。

And has anybody tried to, like, actually name the dollar amount that each of us makes on this?

有没有人尝试过，例如，实际说出我们每个人在这方面赚了多少钱？

Like, how much do each of us make on NAFTA or the TPP?

比如，我们每个人通过北美自由贸易协定或跨太平洋伙伴关系协定赚了多少钱？

So those numbers are hard, because there's lots of different things going on in the economy, and there's definitely ranges of estimates.

所以这些数字很困难，因为经济中发生了很多不同的事情，并且肯定存在估计范围。

But for NAFTA, one study I found by a guy at Yale that seems, like, very reasonable-- it uses pretty standard assumptions-- he found that in the US every year, we get an extra $15 billion because of NAFTA.

但对于北美自由贸易协定，我发现耶鲁大学的一个人的一项研究似乎非常合理——它使用了相当标准的假设——他发现，在美国，我们每年都会因为北美自由贸易协定而额外获得 150 亿美元。

That's $15 billion, with a B.

那是 150 亿美元，B 级。

Jacob Goldstein Yeah.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 是的。

Wow.

哇。

And that's a combination of us exporting more stuff, and also we all save money on stuff that we import.

这是我们出口更多东西的结合，而且我们都在进口东西上省钱。

Exactly.

确切地。

Ira Glass So $15 billion a year is what the whole country makes.

Ira Glass 整个国家每年创造 150 亿美元的收入。

And when you divide that by the number of us in the country, how much is that?

当你除以我们这个国家的人数时，结果是多少？

So it's something like $100 per worker, per year.

因此，每个工人每年大约需要 100 美元。

Which clearly is, like, pretty small, right?

这显然相当小，对吧？

I mean, one of the striking things about NAFTA in general is that, when you look at the US economy as a whole, the economic effects of NAFTA are just not that big of a deal, plus or minus.

我的意思是，总体而言，北美自由贸易协定的显着特点之一是，当你将美国经济视为一个整体时，北美自由贸易协定的经济影响并没有那么大，无论是正负还是负负。

That blows my mind too, to hear you say that, the way people talk about it.

听到你这么说，人们谈论它的方式也让我大吃一惊。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, I think a lot of trade is symbolism.

我的意思是，我认为很多贸易都是象征意义的。

And let's just go back for a second, OK?

让我们回顾一下，好吗？

If it's 700,000 people lose their jobs, and then I only get $100 a year-- I don't know.

如果有 70 万人失业，那么我每年只能拿到 100 美元——我不知道。

$100?

100 美元？

I think maybe I'd rather have somebody in Detroit keep their job.

我想也许我宁愿让底特律的某个人保住他们的工作。

I got $100.

我得到了 100 美元。

I mean, that is reasonable.

我的意思是，这是合理的。

You know, I think one of the reasons trade is so unpopular is, the pain is really concentrated and visible.

你知道，我认为贸易如此不受欢迎的原因之一是，痛苦确实集中且明显。

And the benefits are really diffuse, right?

而且好处确实很分散，对吗？

Like, emotionally, like, who cares about $100?

就像，在情感上，就像，谁在乎 100 美元？

I mean, what economists would say is, in the long run-- in the long run, one trade deal after another, they add up, right?

我的意思是，经济学家会说，从长远来看，一项又一项贸易协议加起来，对吗？

We all get significantly richer because of trade.

由于贸易，我们都变得更加富有。

In the case of a trade deal, there is this transition period where there is real pain for a lot of people.

就贸易协议而言，有一个过渡期，很多人都会经历真正的痛苦。

After the transition is over, we keep getting that extra money forever.

过渡结束后，我们将永远获得额外的资金。

And the transition is over.

过渡已经结束。

Yes.

是的。

And that right there is why economists love free trade.

这就是经济学家热爱自由贸易的原因。

It's one of the few things that almost all economists agree on.

这是几乎所有经济学家都同意的少数事情之一。

In fact, there's this survey that the University of Chicago did where they asked all these economists, all across the political spectrum, are Americans better off on average because of NAFTA?

事实上，芝加哥大学做了一项调查，他们询问所有政治派别的经济学家，美国人的平均生活是否因为北美自由贸易协定而变得更好？

95 percent said yes, 5% said they were unsure.

95% 的人表示是，5% 的人表示不确定。

How many said no?

有多少人说不？

Jacob Goldstein None.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 无。

Nobody.

没有人。

Nobody said no?

没人说不行吗？

Jacob Goldstein Not one economist said Americans are worse off on average because of NAFTA.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 (Jacob Goldstein) 没有一位经济学家表示，美国人的平均境况因北美自由贸易协定而变得更糟。

And when it comes to the TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership?

说到 TPP（跨太平洋伙伴关系协定）？

Very good.

非常好。

Ira Glass So when we do estimates on how much we all might get if that were to go into effect-- like, how good are we going to do, each one of us, from that?

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 因此，当我们估算如果该政策生效，我们所有人可能会得到多少收益时，我们每个人都会从中得到多少好处？

So the federal government estimate of that is, once it's fully phased in, will be about $60 billion, with a B, richer every year, we'll get that extra money.

因此联邦政府的估计是，一旦全面实施，将达到约 600 亿美元，B 级，每年变得更富有，我们将获得额外的资金。

So if you do that per worker, it's like $375 per worker.

因此，如果按每个工人计算，则相当于每个工人 375 美元。

A little under $400 per worker gets that money.

每个工人得到这笔钱不到 400 美元。

Yeah.

是的。

And, I mean, that's just dividing the total value by the number per worker.

我的意思是，这只是将总价值除以每个工人的数量。

They're not saying everybody is going to make that much more money.

他们并不是说每个人都会赚那么多钱。

And just to be clear, this is a super rough estimate.

需要明确的是，这是一个非常粗略的估计。

You know, nobody knows exactly what it's going to be.

你知道，没有人确切知道会发生什么。

And I should point out one more thing about the TPP, and that is, a lot of the opposition to the TPP is not about what we've been talking about.

我还应该指出关于TPP的另一件事，那就是，很多对TPP的反对并不是我们一直在谈论的内容。

It's not about reducing tariffs.

这不是为了降低关税。

It's about all this other stuff, like rules about patent protection, or what happens if a company doesn't like a regulation in a foreign country.

它与所有其他内容有关，例如有关专利保护的规则，或者如果公司不喜欢外国的法规会发生什么。

TPP gives them ways to challenge that regulation.

TPP 为他们提供了挑战该法规的方法。

Some people don't like that.

有些人不喜欢这样。

But the big picture with these trade deals is, like, a small number of workers get bonked on the head, and then the rest of us get a bigger economy.

但这些贸易协定的总体情况是，一小部分工人的头被撞了一下，然后我们其他人就得到了更大的经济。

Yes, although it is leaving out another piece, which is the other countries.

是的，尽管它遗漏了另一块，那就是其他国家。

Jacob, I have two words to say to you.

雅各布，我有两句话要对你说。

America first.

美国第一。

Like, really?

真的吗？

You want me to care about the people in the other countries?

你想让我关心其他国家的人民吗？

You don't have to care about them.

你不必关心他们。

But, I mean, it's a fact that when the US trades more with people in poor countries, they get richer.

但是，我的意思是，事实是，当美国与贫穷国家的人民进行更多贸易时，他们就会变得更富有。

And that is, for them-- maybe not for you, but for them-- a big deal.

这对他们来说——也许不是对你来说，但对他们来说——是一件大事。

China is, like, the big case here, right?

中国是这里的大案子，对吧？

In the last 20 years, say, hundreds of millions of people-- like a whole America of people have come up out of, like, grinding, you know, subsistence farming, $2-a-day poverty basically because of trade with rich countries.

比如说，在过去的 20 年里，数以亿计的人——就像整个美国的人一样——基本上因为与富裕国家的贸易而摆脱了自给农业、每天 2 美元的贫困。

And clearly there's pollution because of that.

显然，因此造成了污染。

Clearly those are terrible factory jobs.

显然，这些都是可怕的工厂工作。

Right.

正确的。

Jacob Goldstein But it has been an incredible anti-poverty program for China.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 但这对中国来说是一项令人难以置信的反贫困计划。

There's this one example from Vietnam that's, like, really clear.

有一个来自越南的例子，非常清楚。

What happened with Vietnam was, in 2001, the trade barriers with the US came down, like all of a sudden.

2001年越南发生的事情是，与美国的贸易壁垒突然降低了。

Not all the way down, but--

并没有完全下降，但是——

Tariffs were dropped.

关税被取消。

Jacob Goldstein Yeah.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 是的。

They got a lot lower.

他们的水平低了很多。

Mm-hm.

嗯嗯。

Jacob Goldstein And this economist in Canada realized like, oh, here is this natural experiment where we can just see-- like, there's a very clear before and after.

雅各布·戈德斯坦（Jacob Goldstein）这位加拿大经济学家意识到，哦，这是一个自然实验，我们可以看到——就像，有一个非常清晰的之前和之后。

What happens?

会发生什么？

Right.

正确的。

There wasn't free trade, now there is free trade.

以前没有自由贸易，现在有了自由贸易。

Yeah.

是的。

And what he found-- so he looked at what happened in Vietnam over just the few years after this change happened.

他发现了什么——所以他研究了这种变化发生后几年越南发生的事情。

What he found was, in three years there were a quarter of a million factory jobs created.

他发现，三年内工厂创造了 25 万个就业岗位。

These are clothing?

这些是衣服？

Jacob Goldstein Yeah, like textiles.

雅各布·戈德斯坦 是的，就像纺织品。

Like, it's low-end manufacturing, right?

就像，这是低端制造业，对吧？

Yes.

是的。

Like, cheap stuff.

比如，便宜的东西。

You know, what we would think of as very bad jobs, right?

你知道，我们认为非常糟糕的工作，对吗？

So there was this quarter of a million factory jobs.

因此，这一季度有 100 万个工厂工作岗位。

And then around those jobs this whole sort of economy grew up, these people at the factory jobs were now richer.

然后围绕这些工作，整个经济发展起来，工厂工作的人现在变得更富有了。

They could buy more stuff, so--

他们可以买更多东西，所以——

Oh, people selling them food and apartments and all that sort of stuff.

哦，人们向他们出售食物和公寓以及诸如此类的东西。

Exactly.

确切地。

Exactly.

确切地。

And so you have millions of people coming out of poverty in three years.

因此，三年内将有数百万人摆脱贫困。

In three years, 7 million people come out of poverty in Vietnam.

三年内，越南700万人摆脱贫困。

The poverty rate for the country falls by a third.

该国的贫困率下降了三分之一。

And to be clear, that is not all because of this one trade deal with the US, but it is a big chunk of it.

需要明确的是，这并不是全部因为与美国的这项贸易协议，但它是其中很大一部分。

I mean, when you say that, the thing I picture is like, oh-- it's almost like there's, like, a certain amount of misery in the world, and then when we lower the trade barriers we import a little misery to the United States and a certain number of people lose their jobs, and we export a certain amount of our prosperity, and they get to have the prosperity.

我的意思是，当你这么说时，我想象的事情就像，哦——这几乎就像世界上有一定程度的苦难，然后当我们降低贸易壁垒时，我们向美国进口了一点苦难，一定数量的人失去了工作，我们出口了一定数量的繁荣，他们就获得了繁荣。

The sort of classical economics answer to that is, in fact, when you have freer trade, the total amount of misery in the world declines.

事实上，古典经济学对此的回答是，当贸易更加自由时，世界上的苦难总量就会减少。

Yes, there are some people who get screwed, but on the whole the US gets richer and Vietnam gets richer.

是的，有些人被骗了，但总的来说，美国变得更富有，越南变得更富有。

It's not zero sum.

这不是零和。

Right, but some individuals get screwed.

是的，但是有些人被搞砸了。

I thought you were going to say the idealistic argument is, like, world peace.

我以为你会说理想主义的论点是世界和平。

Like, if we're trading with each other, we don't kill each other or something.

就像，如果我们互相交易，我们就不会互相残杀或其他什么。

Jacob Goldstein.

雅各布·戈尔茨坦。

You can download the great show he co-hosts, NPR's Planet Money podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

无论您在哪里获得播客，都可以下载他共同主持的精彩节目，即 NPR 的 Planet Money 播客。

Facts, evidence, reason, logic, an understanding of science.

事实、证据、理由、逻辑、对科学的理解。

These are good things.

这些都是好事情。

Well, the sometimes-fact-free utterances of one of the candidates for president this year has been such an issue that several times Barack Obama has spoken about facts and their importance over the last few months.

嗯，今年一位总统候选人有时不顾事实的言论已经成为一个问题，以至于巴拉克·奥巴马在过去几个月里多次谈到事实及其重要性。

At the Rutgers University commencement this spring he talked about how we live in a moment when, quote, "opinions masquerade as facts, and the wildest conspiracy theories are taken as gospel."

在今年春天的罗格斯大学毕业典礼上，他谈到了我们如何生活在一个“观点伪装成事实，最疯狂的阴谋论被当作福音”的时代。

When our leaders express a disdain for facts, when they're not held accountable for repeating falsehoods and just making stuff up, while actual experts are dismissed as elitists, then we've got a problem.

当我们的领导人表现出对事实的蔑视，当他们不为重复谎言和捏造事实而承担责任，而真正的专家却被斥为精英主义者时，我们就有问题了。

Look, our nation's founders-- Franklin, Madison, Hamilton, Jefferson-- they were born of the Enlightenment.

看，我们国家的创始人——富兰克林、麦迪逊、汉密尔顿、杰斐逊——他们出生于启蒙运动。

They sought to escape superstition and sectarianism and tribalism and know-nothing-ness.

他们试图摆脱迷信、宗派主义、部落主义和无知。

They believed in rational thought, and experimentation, and the capacity of informed citizens to master our own fates.

他们相信理性思考、实验以及知情公民掌握自己命运的能力。

That is embedded in our constitutional design.

这已融入我们的宪法设计中。

There's this thing that we've been talking about here at our program, that Donald Trump probably would not have happened if there had not been a black president.

我们在节目中一直在谈论这样的事情，如果没有一位黑人总统，唐纳德·特朗普可能不会发生。

You know, like, Trump rose to prominence among Republicans as the leading proponent of the idea that Barack Obama was not born in the United States.

你知道，特朗普在共和党人中声名鹊起，因为他是巴拉克·奥巴马并非出生在美国这一观点的主要支持者。

And the sudden visibility that we're seeing of white nationalism during this presidential race-- that is hard to imagine if there had not been a black president right before it.

在这次总统竞选中，我们看到白人民族主义突然凸显出来——如果之前没有一位黑人总统，这是很难想象的。

Donald Trump is one of the consequences of the Obama presidency.

唐纳德·特朗普是奥巴马总统任期的后果之一。

And we've been talking about how that's probably a thought that's occurred to the president.

我们一直在讨论总统可能会产生这样的想法。

But, as far as we can tell, he has not spoken about that publicly.

但是，据我们所知，他尚未公开谈论此事。

And so wondering what his thoughts might be, we decided to try something.

所以想知道他的想法可能是什么，我们决定尝试一些事情。

We asked a songwriter, Sara Bareilles, to write a song imagining Barack Obama's thoughts on that and on Trump, and we present that now.

我们请歌曲作者萨拉·巴雷勒斯（Sara Bareilles）写一首歌曲，想象巴拉克·奥巴马对此和特朗普的想法，我们现在将其呈现。

Sarah puts out albums of her own, but she also wrote a Broadway show, Waitress , and she invited a Broadway colleague to sing this, Leslie Odom Jr., one of the stars of Hamilton .

莎拉推出了自己的专辑，但她还写了一部百老汇剧目《女服务员》，并邀请了一位百老汇同事来演唱这首歌曲，小莱斯利·奥多姆是《汉密尔顿》的明星之一。

Here's the song.

这是这首歌。

Leslie Odom Jr (SINGING) Let's start with hope.

小莱斯利·奥多姆（演唱）让我们从希望开始。

I threw it in the mirror like a skipping stone, the ripples won, son of a gun.

我像一块跳石一样把它扔进镜子里，涟漪赢了，枪之子。

Some would not have thought so, but I stand here, Commander-in-Chief.

有些人可能不会这么认为，但我站在这里，总司令。

But along the way, a rogue ripple turned tidal wave in reaction to what I tried to do, the rebirth of a Nation's hatred, red, white, and blue.

但一路走来，一股流氓涟漪变成了潮汐波，回应我试图做的事情，一个国家的仇恨、红色、白色和蓝色的重生。

Is black in there, too?

里面也有黑色吗？

Seriously.

严重地。

One man rewriting the book on bad behavior.

一名男子重写了一本关于不良行为的书。

Maybe cheats the neighbors.

也许欺骗了邻居。

Feels he gets what they paid for.

感觉他得到了他们付出的代价。

We can't pat him on the back and send him on through.

我们不能拍拍他的背并让他继续前进。

No man's ignorance will ever be his virtue.

没有人的无知永远不会成为他的美德。

Let's talk of fear and why I don't bring it in here.

让我们谈谈恐惧以及为什么我不把它带入这里。

It's a dangerous word, spooks the herd, and we all bleed in the stampede.

这是一个危险的词，吓坏了牛群，我们都在踩踏中流血了。

Fear makes a false friend indeed.

恐惧确实会结交虚假的朋友。

And I take it seriously.

我认真对待它。

Oh, hear me now, for the truth gets drowned out by a demigod flexing.

哦，现在听我说，因为真相会被半神的弯曲所淹没。

A demigod flexing.

一个正在弯曲的半神。

He's history repeating.

他正在重演历史。

And I'm at a loss for words.

我无言以对。

After all we've done, every battle hard won, every hair gone gray in the name of this place, in a history plagued with incredible mistakes.

毕竟我们所做的一切，每一场战斗都来之不易，每一根头发都以这个地方的名义变白了，在一段充斥着令人难以置信的错误的历史中。

Still, I pledge my allegiance to these united, divided states.

尽管如此，我仍宣誓效忠这些团结而分裂的国家。

Let's end with, why?

让我们结束吧，为什么？

It's a question I want to ask of us as a populace.

这是我想问我们普通民众的一个问题。

Why not take our time for the weight of this story?

为什么不花点时间来了解一下这个故事的分量呢？

Ira Glass Leslie Odom Jr., singing words and music by Sarah Bareilles.

艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 小莱斯利·奥多姆 (Leslie Odom Jr.)，由莎拉·巴雷勒斯 (Sarah Bareilles) 演唱词曲。

We also shot a video of Leslie Odom Jr. singing this song.

我们还拍摄了小莱斯利·奥多姆演唱这首歌的视频。

It'll be up online soon.

很快就会上线。

Well, our program was produced today by Dana Chivvis and Susan Burton.

嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Dana Chivvis 和 Susan Burton 制作的。

Our production staff, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Karen Duffin, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, David Kestenbaum, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.

我们的制作人员包括 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Karen Duffin、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、David Kestenbaum、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike。

Research help today from Christopher Swetala and Michelle Harris.

Christopher Swetala 和 Michelle Harris 今天提供了研究帮助。

Music help from Damien Grave.

达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Grave) 的音乐帮助。

Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org.

我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder Mr. Torey Malatia, who is so tired of dealing with radio hosts.

一如既往地感谢我们节目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他厌倦了与广播主持人打交道。

They are so spoiled.

他们太被宠坏了。

People stand up when they walk in the room, they stand up when they leave, they bring them coffee, they laugh at their dumb jokes.

人们走进房间时会站起来，离开时也会站起来，他们会给他们端咖啡，他们会因愚蠢的笑话而发笑。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Back next week with more stories of This American Life.

下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。