595: Deep End of the Pool - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #595 | August 26, 2016 595: Deep End of the Pool Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 595 集 | 2016 年 8 月 26 日 595：泳池深处 注：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass When Aaryn was nine, her family moved from China to Canada.
序言 Ira Glass 当 Aaryn 九岁时，她的家人从中国搬到了加拿大。
And there was this pool in their apartment complex.
他们的公寓大楼里有这个游泳池。
And one day her dad was like, let's try out the pool.
有一天，她爸爸说，我们去游泳池试试吧。
And Aaryn's super excited and her dad is meanwhile thinking, she doesn't know how to swim.
阿林非常兴奋，而她爸爸同时在想，她不会游泳。
Time to fix that.
是时候解决这个问题了。
And as soon as they get to the pool he picks her up, throws her in the deep end.
他们一到泳池，他就把她抱起来，扔进了深水区。
And I start screaming.
我开始尖叫。
And I still didn't really know what was going on.
我仍然不知道发生了什么事。
And I was screaming and struggling in the water.
我在水中尖叫并挣扎。
And every few seconds I can kind of see above water my dad standing there like looking at me.
每隔几秒钟，我就能看到我爸爸站在水面上，就像在看着我。
And I'm screaming and he's not really reacting.
我尖叫着，他却没有真正的反应。
And then I see like the other kids and their parents.
然后我就像其他孩子和他们的父母一样。
And they were looking really disapproving.
他们看起来真的很不赞成。
Did you feel, like at the moment that he threw you in, did you feel betrayed by him?
你有没有感觉，就像他把你扔进去的那一刻，你有被他背叛的感觉吗？
I felt angry.
我感到愤怒。
I felt angry that I was embarrassed because of something he did.
我因为他所做的事情让我感到尴尬而感到愤怒。
Did you feel angry that you might drown?
你是否因为自己可能被淹死而感到愤怒？
I mean, aren't you leaving out that?
我的意思是，你不是忽略了这一点吗？
I like that the embarrassment is a bigger thing in your head at that moment than like oh, I might actually just die right now.
我喜欢那种尴尬在你脑海中比“哦，我可能现在就死了”更重要的事情。
I really didn't think I would.
我真的没想到我会。
Like that didn't even crossed my mind.
我什至没有想到这一点。
Like what I was thinking the most was oh, my god.
就像我想到的最多的是哦，我的上帝。
All these white kids and their parents are watching me.
所有这些白人孩子和他们的父母都在看着我。
Like I was trying to will myself into learning how to swim so I wouldn't have to keep embarrassing myself.
就像我试图强迫自己学习游泳，这样我就不必一直让自己难堪。
It is literally only now, only once she started talking about this for our radio show that the thought occurred to her that maybe all those people weren't looking disapprovingly at her, but at her dad.
事实上，直到现在，只有当她开始在我们的广播节目中谈论这件事时，她才想到，也许所有这些人都不是在不赞成地看着她，而是在看着她的父亲。
Back when she was nine she just blamed herself for failing.
当她九岁的时候，她只是责怪自己的失败。
I remember thinking like how could you not know how to swim?
我记得我当时想，你怎么会不会游泳呢？
You just have to swim and be OK.
你只需要游泳就可以了。
Look at all these people staring at you.
看看所有这些人都在盯着你看。
And look at the look on your dad's face.
看看你爸爸脸上的表情。
Just swim.
只是游泳。
And then I feel myself sinking and I can only see water around me.
然后我感觉自己在下沉，周围只能看到水。
And then a few seconds later, I don't know how long, I feel someone grab me.
然后几秒钟后，不知道过了多久，我感觉有人抓住了我。
And then I see that it's my dad.
然后我发现那是我爸爸。
And we slowly get out of the pool.
然后我们慢慢地离开了泳池。
And he didn't really talk to me for the rest of the night.
整个晚上他都没有真正跟我说话。
She did overhear him telling her mom, I don't know what's wrong, it should have been easy.
她确实无意中听到他告诉她妈妈，我不知道出了什么问题，这应该很容易。
She should've been able to do it.
她应该能够做到的。
In the years since, she has never talked to him about it.
这么多年过去了，她再也没有跟他提过这件事。
But this whole idea of sink or swim, I mean, the actual sink or swim-- you know, throw a kid into the deep end of the pool-- it seems so contrary to all of the other nicey, nicey ways that we try to teach kids about everything else.
但是沉或游的整个想法，我的意思是，真正的沉或游——你知道，把一个孩子扔进游泳池的深处——它似乎与我们试图教孩子们其他一切的所有其他很好的方式相反。
And it is way more common than you think.
而且它比你想象的要普遍得多。
It happened to two of our producers here on the show, Emmanuel and Matt.
这件事发生在我们节目中的两位制片人伊曼纽尔和马特身上。
It happened to my wife.
这发生在我妻子身上。
They were just tossed in over their heads, no warning, totally caught off guard.
他们只是被抛过头顶，没有任何警告，完全措手不及。
Aaryn says it didn't traumatize her.
阿林说这并没有给她带来创伤。
In fact, it motivated her to try to teach herself to swim a month later so there'd be no further embarrassment.
事实上，这促使她在一个月后尝试自学游泳，这样就不会再出现尴尬了。
You know what's the weird part of this strategy is the element of surprise.
你知道这个策略的奇怪之处在于出人意料的元素。
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Like it seems like if you're going to do this with your kid you could say, here's what we're going to do.
Ira Glass：如果你要和你的孩子一起做这件事，你可以说，这就是我们要做的。
I'm going to throw you in the pool and you're going to swim your way out.
我会把你扔进游泳池，你会游出去。
Like the thought that he would surprise you, it just seems like a completely unnecessary extra bonus piece of trauma to throw on the whole thing.
就像他会给你带来惊喜的想法一样，这似乎是一个完全不必要的额外创伤加在整个事情上。
Yeah, I don't know why he chose to do that.
是的，我不知道他为什么选择这样做。
I should ask him some time.
我应该找个时间问问他。
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] Ira Glass This, of course, is the universal sound of one parent getting the other parent on the phone.
[非英语演讲] Ira Glass 这当然是父母一方打电话给另一方父母时发出的普遍声音。
Once her dad was on the line, Aaryn explained why we were calling.
当她父亲接通电话后，阿林解释了我们打电话的原因。
And I have to say, this must have been a very strange call for Aaryn's dad to get at 10:00 at night in China.
我不得不说，在中国晚上 10:00 给 Aaryn 的爸爸打来的电话一定是一个非常奇怪的电话。
His daughter lives in Europe these days, plus some man from a radio show in America he's never heard of asking about a totally random incident that happened in Canada 16 years ago.
他的女儿现在住在欧洲，还有一个他从未听说过的美国广播节目中的男子询问 16 年前在加拿大发生的一件完全随机的事件。
I cannot exactly remember that.
我记不太清了。
That's really a long time ago.
那确实是很久以前的事了。
I cannot remember it.
我不记得了。
The phone line is bad.
电话线不好。
He's saying I cannot exactly remember that.
他说我记不太清了。
That's really a long time ago.
那确实是很久以前的事了。
I cannot remember it.
我不记得了。
Aaryn's dad said that being thrown into the deep end of the pool was not like some traditional way they taught swimming back home in the village he came from.
阿林的父亲说，被扔进游泳池的深处并不像他家乡村子里教游泳的传统方式。
He didn't learn that way.
他不是这样学的。
And yet when I asked him would he teach a child today to swim that way, would he throw her into the deep end of the pool?
然而，当我问他今天会教孩子那样游泳时，他会把她扔进泳池的深处吗？
He said yeah, maybe.
他说是的，也许吧。
No, I don't think so.
不，我不这么认为。
No. Ira Glass Aaryn was unsurprised.
不。艾拉·格拉斯·阿林并不感到惊讶。
When he got off the phone she told me even when she was nine and flailing around in the water, for him to throw her in like that, it wasn't like she was seeing some insane side of him she'd never seen before, some unheard of behavior.
当他挂断电话时，她告诉我，即使她九岁，在水里挣扎，他把她这样扔进去，她并不是看到了他以前从未见过的疯狂的一面，或者是闻所未闻的行为。
No, that's not insane for my dad.
不，这对我爸爸来说并不疯狂。
Like it seemed really on character for him to do that.
看来他这么做确实符合他的性格。
Like if it had been anything else, driving a car.
就像驾驶汽车一样。
Like with roller blades he just dropped me off at a grocery store parking lot, made me put them on myself, and then gave me a shopping cart and said hold on to this and you'll learn.
就像溜冰鞋一样，他只是把我放在杂货店停车场，让我自己穿上，然后给了我一个购物车，说坚持住，你就会学到东西。
And then he drove away and said come home when you're tired.
然后他开车走了，说累了就回家吧。
It's just how he thinks I'll learn best, I guess.
我想，这就是他认为我学得最好的方式。
This is a whole coherent strategy for life.
这是一个完整连贯的人生策略。
It's tough out there.
外面很难。
Stuff's gotta get done.
事情必须完成。
Coddling ourselves, coddling others, that's not going to do anybody any good.
纵容自己，纵容他人，这对任何人都没有任何好处。
Today on our program we have two very different stories in which people are thrown into the deep end of the pool, asked to do things they were totally inexperienced at and unprepared for in situations with very high stakes.
今天，在我们的节目中，我们有两个截然不同的故事，人们被扔进泳池的最深处，被要求做他们完全没有经验且没有准备的事情，在风险很高的情况下。
In one story, a man faces 20 years in prison.
在一个故事中，一名男子面临 20 年监禁。
And in the other, the United States faces an implacable foe on a quest for global domination.
另一方面，美国在寻求全球统治的过程中面临着一个不可调和的敌人。
I am not kidding, global domination.
我不是在开玩笑，全球统治。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, If You Cannot Afford an Attorney, Some Random Dude Will Be Appointed to You.
第一幕，如果你请不起律师，就会为你指定一些随机的人。
So one of the many, many things that we all know from watching television is that when you get arrested, someone is supposed to read you your Miranda rights.
因此，我们从电视中知道的许多事情之一就是，当您被捕时，应该有人向您宣读您的米兰达权利。
And those rights include the right to an attorney.
这些权利包括聘请律师的权利。
And if you cannot afford an attorney, one will be given to you for free.
如果您请不起律师，我们将免费为您提供一位律师。
Well, those free attorneys, public defenders, they have never been adequately funded in lots of states.
好吧，那些自由律师、公设辩护人，在许多州他们从来没有得到足够的资助。
And in recent years, the problem has reached crisis levels.
近年来，这个问题已经达到了危机程度。
Lots of public defenders offices around the country simply do not have the money and staff to provide a lawyer to everyone who needs one.
全国各地的许多公设辩护处根本没有资金和人员来为每个需要律师的人提供律师。
And in some states, Florida, Tennessee, Missouri, Montana, Louisiana, the court just picks random lawyers and makes them take the cases.
在佛罗里达州、田纳西州、密苏里州、蒙大拿州、路易斯安那州等一些州，法院只是随机挑选律师并让他们受理案件。
A few weeks ago you might have seen this in the news, the public defender's office in Missouri tried to assign a case like this, it was an assault case, to the governor of Missouri, Jay Nixon, who's a member of the bar.
几周前，您可能在新闻中看到过这一点，密苏里州的公设辩护人办公室试图将这样的案件（这是一起袭击案件）分配给密苏里州州长杰伊·尼克松（Jay Nixon），他是律师协会的成员。
The head of the public defender's office said it was appropriate to give the case to him because quote, "he was the one attorney in the state who not only created this problem, but is in a unique position to address it" by giving them more funding.
公设辩护人办公室负责人表示，将案件交给他是合适的，因为“他是该州唯一一位律师，不仅造成了这个问题，而且在解决这个问题上处于独特的地位”，为他们提供更多资金。
The governor, apparently, is not going to take that case.
显然，州长不会受理这个案子。
But other lawyers have to.
但其他律师必须这样做。
And there's an interesting problem when they assign these random lawyers to these cases.
当他们随机分配这些案件的律师时，会出现一个有趣的问题。
Often, these attorneys have no experience at all in the kind of law they're going to have to use in the cases.
通常，这些律师对于他们在案件中必须使用的法律类型根本没有经验。
So for example, if you're picked up for marijuana possession, your fate might be in the hands of a lawyer who specializes in real estate.
例如，如果您因持有大麻而被捕，您的命运可能掌握在专门从事房地产的律师手中。
Reporter David Zax has a story of a case like that in Louisiana, Shreveport, which is in Caddo Parish.
记者大卫·扎克斯（David Zax）报道了路易斯安那州什里夫波特卡多教区的一个类似案例。
The case went to a guy who is not prepared for it.
这个案子交给了一个没有做好准备的人。
Quick warning to listeners, there is no explicit or graphic content in this story at all, but there is some colorful cursing.
快速警告听众，这个故事中根本没有任何露骨或图文的内容，但有一些色彩缤纷的咒骂。
That's actually true for both acts of today's program.
对于今天节目的两幕来说实际上都是如此。
And if you prefer a show that has been beeped, maybe you listen with kids in the car, you can get that at our website thisamericanlife.org.
如果您更喜欢有提示音的节目，也许您可以和车里的孩子一起听，您可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上获取。
OK, here's David.
好的，这是大卫。
This case is about a burglary.
这起案件是一起入室盗窃案。
One night a few years ago, a woman woke up to a flashlight shining in her face.
几年前的一个晚上，一位女士醒来时发现手电筒照在她的脸上。
This was in Shreveport, Louisiana, in the northwest corner of the state.
这是位于路易斯安那州西北角的什里夫波特。
The woman screamed and the burglars fled.
女人尖叫起来，窃贼逃跑了。
They made off with two TVs, a computer, an iPhone.
他们偷走了两台电视、一台电脑和一部 iPhone。
But they'd also left some evidence behind, a cigarette butt, a crowbar, and a hat, a black baseball cap.
但他们也留下了一些证据，一个烟头，一个撬棍，还有一顶帽子，一顶黑色棒球帽。
The police bagged the hat and they sent it to the crime lab for DNA testing.
警方将帽子装进袋子，送往犯罪实验室进行 DNA 检测。
It turned out that some DNA in the hat matched a man named Trastavien Hardy.
事实证明，帽子中的某些 DNA 与一个名叫特拉斯塔维安·哈迪 (Trastavien Hardy) 的人相匹配。
A warrant was issued for his arrest and he turned himself in.
对他发出逮捕令并自首。
Shreveport was one of those places assigning private attorneys to cases like this because they don't have enough public defenders.
什里夫波特是为此类案件指派私人律师的地方之一，因为他们没有足够的公设辩护人。
So the judge, he looked at this list he had of private attorneys in the area.
因此，法官查看了他拥有的该地区私人律师的名单。
It was alphabetical, and he just picked the next name.
这是按字母顺序排列的，他只是选择了下一个名字。
Jack Bailey, one of those accident and injury guys whose ads you see all over the place.
杰克·贝利（Jack Bailey）是事故和受伤人员中的一员，他的广告随处可见。
I hope you work every day without being hurt on the job, drive without someone running a stop sign, go through life without ever being hurt because of someone else's stupidity.
我希望你每天工作时不会在工作中受伤，开车时不会有人闯停车标志，生活中不会因为别人的愚蠢而受到伤害。
This one is beautifully lit and shot.
这张灯光和拍摄都很漂亮。
Jack is sitting at a big desk.
杰克坐在一张大桌子旁。
He's in shirt sleeves and suspenders looking quietly tough.
他穿着衬衫袖子和背带裤，看起来很坚强。
But bad things happen to good people.
但坏事却发生在好人身上。
And if it should happen to you, you're going to want someone like me by your side.
如果这发生在你身上，你会希望像我这样的人在你身边。
And around here, there's only one someone like me.
而这里，只有一个像我这样的人。
Jack Bailey is 64.
杰克·贝利今年 64 岁。
And for over 30 years, he's made his money on workplace accidents, car crashes, medical malpractice, that kind of thing.
三十多年来，他靠工伤事故、车祸、医疗事故等事情赚钱。
Jack likes to call himself a podunk shirtsleeve lawyer.
杰克喜欢称自己为“朴实无华的律师”。
But he's been really successful.
但他确实很成功。
He wears monogrammed shirts under those suspenders.
他在吊带下穿着印有字母组合的衬衫。
He's got a huge stately office with bayonets and a Don't Tread on Me flag on the wall.
他有一间宽敞、富丽堂皇的办公室，办公室里插着刺刀，墙上还挂着“别踩我”的旗帜。
He's got a showy dog too, a bull terrier that hangs out with him all day.
他还有一只很漂亮的狗，一只整天和他在一起的斗牛犬。
Oh yeah, he's friendly.
哦，是的，他很友好。
Hey Tater, somebody wants to meet you.
嘿，塔特，有人想见你。
Tater, wake up.
塔特，醒醒吧。
Jack's always liked doing this kind of work.
杰克一直喜欢做这种工作。
He gets to pick his clients, make his own schedule.
他可以挑选客户，制定自己的时间表。
He finds out he's been assigned Trastavien's case in April 2015 when a fax comes in, a single-page court order.
2015 年 4 月，当收到一份传真（一份单页法庭命令）时，他发现自己已被指派处理特拉斯塔维恩 (Trastavien) 的案件。
Jack picks it up, looks at it.
杰克捡起它，看着它。
And he's very unhappy, and his face was kind of red.
而且他很不高兴，脸都红了。
This is Tammy Burdine.
这是塔米·伯丁。
She's been Jack's paralegal for over a decade.
十多年来，她一直是杰克的律师助理。
Jack took the fax to his office, made a racket.
杰克把传真拿到办公室，大声喧哗。
He was yelling to himself.
他对自己大喊大叫。
He was in his office for a little while and he came out and he made the comment to me, well, it looks like we're representing a damn criminal.
他在办公室待了一会儿，然后出来对我说，好吧，看起来我们代表的是一个该死的罪犯。
The court order was a form letter.
法院命令是一份套用信函。
Jack's name was scribbled into a blank.
杰克的名字被潦草地写在空白处。
He still has it.
他仍然拥有它。
Therefore, it is ordered that Attorney Jack Bailey be appointed to represent the defendant in this matter.
因此，命令任命杰克·贝利律师在本案中代表被告。
By the way, it doesn't say this, but for free at my cost.
顺便说一句，它没有这么说，但是免费，费用由我承担。
Because it cost hundreds of dollars an hour to operate my office.
因为运营我的办公室每小时要花费数百美元。
So I'm actually paying to represent somebody.
所以我实际上是在花钱代表某人。
This isn't free.
这不是免费的。
Tammy was doing her best not to panic over how she and Jack were going to handle the case they'd been assigned.
塔米尽力不为她和杰克将如何处理分配给他们的案件感到惊慌。
Because Jack doesn't do criminal cases.
因为杰克不办刑事案件。
He doesn't deal with people facing prison time.
他不与面临牢狱之灾的人打交道。
But Tammy knew that Jack had at least dabbled in criminal cases for a few months early in his career.
但塔米知道杰克在职业生涯的早期至少几个月就涉足过刑事案件。
Maybe they'd be OK.
也许他们会没事的。
Surely law school taught him stuff about criminals.
当然，法学院教给他有关罪犯的知识。
Surely somebody taught them something about criminal.
肯定有人教过他们一些有关犯罪的知识。
I hadn't read the Louisiana Code of Criminal Procedure in over 30 years when I got this appointment.
当我得到这个任命时，我已经 30 多年没有读过《路易斯安那州刑事诉讼法》了。
I guess I just thought, well, Mr. Bailey has practiced long enough.
我想我只是想，好吧，贝利先生已经练习得够久了。
He's a lawyer.
他是一名律师。
He knows what to do.
他知道该怎么做。
I'm upset.
我很沮丧。
I'm worried about whether I'm going to be able to do a good job or not.
我担心自己能否做好工作。
I'm worried about how much time I'm gonna have to invest in it.
我担心我需要投入多少时间。
There is nothing good to say about it.
对此，没什么好说的。
So Jack came up with a plan.
于是杰克想出了一个计划。
He thought the appointment had to be illegal.
他认为这项任命一定是非法的。
So he told Tammy, get me out of this.
所以他告诉塔米，让我摆脱这一切。
She started drafting letters of complaint to send off to the judge and to the public defenders.
她开始起草投诉信并发送给法官和公设辩护人。
But because she was worried they might get stuck with the case, on her own, she started doing something else.
但因为她担心他们可能会独自处理这个案子，所以她开始做其他事情。
She started working it.
她开始工作了。
Tammy is super organized.
塔米非常有组织性。
Wire-rimmed glasses, late 40s, a smoker.
戴着金属丝框眼镜，40 多岁，吸烟。
And because Jack hasn't told her to do this work, she has to hide her tracks.
因为杰克没有告诉她做这项工作，所以她必须隐藏自己的踪迹。
When she wants to call the clerk of court to ask a question she makes sure she's out of earshot of Jack's office.
当她想打电话给法庭书记员询问问题时，她会确保自己不在杰克办公室的听力范围内。
Her desk is right outside his door.
她的办公桌就在他的门外。
He would come out of his office and I'm minimizing WordPerfect.
他会走出办公室，而我正在最小化 WordPerfect。
And I'm on Caddo's website.
我在卡多的网站上。
And I hear, you can hear his chair go creak.
我听说，你可以听到他的椅子吱吱作响。
And I'm like, oh, crap.
我就像，哦，糟糕。
Here he comes.
他来了。
He's up, he's up.
他起来了，他起来了。
And I'm closing things.
我正在关闭一切。
And I'm trying my best.
我正在尽力。
I don't want to poke-- we laugh about it here, but the rule is you don't poke the bear.
我不想戳——我们在这里笑了，但规则是你不能戳熊。
And I am worried about him seeing things on my computer poking the bear.
我担心他会看到我电脑上的东西戳熊。
But I have to, but I was told he didn't want us to.
但我必须这样做，但我被告知他不希望我们这样做。
And I'm so confused on this whole case on every level.
我对整个案件的各个层面都很困惑。
She started where any of us would, Google.
她从我们任何人都会做的地方开始，谷歌。
First she looks at the basics of criminal procedure in Louisiana and also the basics of her own case.
首先，她介绍了路易斯安那州刑事诉讼程序的基础知识以及她自己案件的基础知识。
The state had given them almost nothing.
国家几乎没有给他们任何东西。
On the court order there wasn't even a charge listed, just a docket number and the guy's name, Trastavien Hardy.
法庭命令上什至没有列出任何指控，只有案卷编号和此人的名字，特拉斯塔维恩·哈迪(Trastavien Hardy)。
In her googling, Tammy finds a mug shot and a rap sheet.
在谷歌搜索中，塔米找到了一张面部照片和一份犯罪记录。
Trastavien is 25 and his record goes back years.
Trastavien 今年 25 岁，他的记录可以追溯到很多年前。
There is a marijuana possession, a car break in, and he's a registered sex offender.
他拥有大麻，一辆汽车被闯入，而且他是一名登记在案的性犯罪者。
But that's all she can find.
但这就是她能找到的一切。
So she just waits.
所以她只是等待。
She assumes that the DA's office or the court is going to send more information.
她认为地方检察官办公室或法院将发送更多信息。
I mean, you know, if you watch the TV shows, the Law & Order , the Criminal Minds , they have evidence.
我的意思是，你知道，如果你看电视节目，《法律与秩序》、《犯罪心理》，他们有证据。
We have evidence in the civil matters.
我们有民事案件的证据。
So I assumed the rest of it was coming, maybe in a box or a big envelope.
所以我假设剩下的东西会来，也许在一个盒子或一个大信封里。
And it never came.
但它从未到来。
It just didn't.
但事实并非如此。
The phone rings and the receptionist answers it and he transfers the call and says Mr. Bailey, the court is on the phone.
电话响起，接待员接听，他转接电话并说贝利先生，法庭正在通话。
So he picks it up, this is Jack Bailey.
于是他接了起来，这是杰克·贝利。
And I can hear Mr. Bailey from where I sit.
我可以从我坐的地方听到贝利先生的声音。
And he is telling them nobody told us about this date.
他告诉他们没有人告诉我们这个日期。
And nobody said, and I wasn't aware.
没人说，我也不知道。
And you know, we'd missed the date.
你知道，我们错过了约会。
They'd missed a court date on Trastavien's case.
他们错过了特拉斯塔维恩案件的开庭日期。
Tammy took a closer look at the faxed court order.
塔米仔细查看了传真的法庭命令。
There it was.
就在那里。
It actually is just handwritten at the bottom of the order and it looks like 5.13.
实际上只是手写在订单底部，看起来像 5.13。
And I know it says court date, but it is bad handwriting.
我知道上面写着开庭日期，但字迹很差。
Of course, there was one person who managed to show up in court that day.
当然，当天也有一个人设法到庭了。
He was brought there directly from jail.
他被直接从监狱带到那里。
Jack's client, Trastavien Hardy.
杰克的客户特拉斯塔维安·哈代。
He'd come to the courtroom in shackles hoping to finally meet his lawyer.
他带着镣铐来到法庭，希望最终能见到他的律师。
But a bailiff in the courtroom told Trastavien that he hadn't seen Jack at all.
但法庭上的一名法警告诉特拉斯塔维恩，他根本没有见过杰克。
Lots of these appointed attorneys weren't showing up.
许多指定的律师都没有出现。
You know, I asked him like, where my lawyer at, who my lawyer is.
你知道，我问他，我的律师在哪里，我的律师是谁。
And he like, you probably never going to get to see him.
他喜欢，你可能永远见不到他。
He'll never really come to court.
他永远不会真正出庭。
That's all he just said.
他刚才就说了这么多。
Like you'll never get to see him in court.
就像你永远不会在法庭上见到他一样。
I'm like, dang.
我就像，当。
Trastavien was eager to see an attorney because he says he hadn't done the burglary.
特拉斯塔维安急于见律师，因为他说入室盗窃案不是他干的。
It's true he used to be mixed up in some bad stuff.
确实，他以前也曾卷入过一些不好的事情。
He'd pled guilty to those things Tammy had read about, though they weren't all as bad as she'd imagined.
他对塔米读到的那些事情表示认罪，尽管它们并不像她想象的那么糟糕。
That registered sex offense, for example, it was consensual.
例如，登记的性犯罪是双方自愿的。
Trastavien was 17, his girlfriend was 14, which at the time was a felony in Louisiana.
特拉斯塔维恩当时 17 岁，他的女朋友 14 岁，这在路易斯安那州当时是重罪。
He served time for it.
他为此服刑了。
Trastavien is slight and soft spoken.
特拉斯塔维安身材瘦小，说话轻声细语。
Says yes sir a lot.
说是的，先生很多。
You have to lean in a bit to hear him sometimes.
有时你必须倾身一点才能听到他的声音。
And he says that since he got out of prison in 2011, he'd been keeping his nose clean.
他说，自从 2011 年出狱以来，他一直保持清白。
He was 25.
那年他25岁。
He was a full-time student at a local college.
他是当地一所大学的全日制学生。
He had just started dating someone, a nurse.
他刚刚开始和一个护士约会。
He'd been sitting in jail since April terrified, upset, confused.
自四月份以来，他一直坐在监狱里，感到恐惧、心烦意乱、困惑。
He wanted to get back to his school, to his girlfriend.
他想回到他的学校，回到他的女朋友身边。
At his first court date he found out that the Caddo public defender's office couldn't offer him a lawyer, so he went back to his cell, waited for a month.
在第一次出庭时，他发现卡多公设辩护人办公室无法为他提供律师，因此他回到自己的牢房，等了一个月。
Then on May 13, he went to court and his new lawyer, some guy named Jack Bailey, didn't even bother to show.
然后 5 月 13 日，他上了法庭，而他的新律师，一个名叫杰克贝利的人，甚至懒得出庭。
Back in his cell, Trastavien sat down and wrote a letter to Alan Golden, the chief public defender in Caddo.
回到牢房后，特拉斯塔维安坐下来给卡多的首席公设辩护人艾伦·戈尔登写了一封信。
Dear Mr. Alan Golden, I was told you were the person to contact as far as reassigning me another public defender.
亲爱的艾伦·戈尔登先生，我被告知您是为我重新指派另一名公设辩护人的联系人。
Trastavien noted that Jack Bailey had ditched his court date, never tried to contact him, never visited him in jail.
特拉斯塔维恩指出，杰克·贝利已经放弃了出庭日期，从未试图联系他，也从未去监狱探望过他。
So I would like to fire him and be appointed someone who is going to fight for me.
所以我想解雇他并任命一个为我而战的人。
Thanks for your time, and I hope this letter don't go unnoticed.
感谢您抽出时间，我希望这封信不会被忽视。
Sincerely, Trastavien Hardy.
此致，特拉斯塔维安·哈代。
There's one word here, it looks like you went over it several times with the pen.
这里有一个词，看起来你用笔写了好几遍。
It's pretty thick there.
那里相当厚。
What's the word there?
那里有什么词？
Fire.
火。
Fire.
火。
David Zax Trastavien couldn't fire Jack, of course.
当然，大卫·扎克斯·特拉斯塔维恩不能解雇杰克。
There wasn't a backup lawyer to assign to him.
没有为他指派后备律师。
Meanwhile, Jack had been sending off his own letters trying to get removed from the case.
与此同时，杰克也一直在寄出自己的信件，试图将自己从案件中剔除。
And by June, he and Tammy realized it wasn't going to work.
到了六月，他和塔米意识到这是行不通的。
Jack was stuck with Trastavien, just like Trastavien was stuck with him.
杰克与特拉斯塔维恩纠缠不清，就像特拉斯塔维安与他纠缠不休一样。
First step, now that Jack was on board, he needed to visit Trastavien.
第一步，既然杰克已经上船了，他需要去拜访特拉斯塔维恩。
But in order to get into the jail the warden said that he need a bar card, some kind of photo ID that the Louisiana State Bar Association issues.
但监狱长说，为了进入监狱，他需要一张律师证，即路易斯安那州律师协会颁发的某种带照片的身份证件。
Jack had never needed a bar card in his civil practice.
杰克在民事执业中从来不需要律师证。
He was fuming.
他很生气。
Yeah, listen, I'm sort of-- don't take this wrong way, but I'm kind of a big fish in a small pond.
是的，听着，我有点——别误会，但我有点像小池塘里的大鱼。
I've been here 40 years.
我在这里已经40年了。
I'm in the phone book.
我在电话簿里。
I was on the spine of the book.
我在书脊上。
I periodically run TV advertisements.
我定期投放电视广告。
I mean, everybody knows me.
我的意思是，每个人都认识我。
The sheriff lives down the street from my mama on Moss Point Road.
警长住在莫斯波因特路，离我妈妈不远。
The sheriff has known me for 30 years.
警长认识我已有 30 年了。
And they're telling me I gotta get a bar code to come in as an appointed lawyer to see some poor bastard that's locked up in the jail?
他们告诉我，我必须获得条形码才能以指定律师的身份进来见某个被关在监狱里的可怜的混蛋？
I mean, really, theater of the absurd.
我的意思是，真的，荒诞剧。
They wasted two weeks to get the whole bar card thing sorted out.
他们花了两周时间才把酒吧卡的事情解决了。
And then finally, almost two months after getting his appointment, Jack was going to meet his client.
最后，在得到预约近两个月后，杰克要见他的客户了。
So Jack is sitting in the visiting room waiting for Trastavien.
杰克正坐在会客室里等待特拉斯塔维安。
He comes in, I introduce myself.
他进来了，我自我介绍。
He doesn't know who I am.
他不知道我是谁。
I have to explain to him who I am, what I'm doing there.
我必须向他解释我是谁，我在那里做什么。
So then he starts telling me, I need to get out of jail.
然后他开始告诉我，我需要出狱。
I need to get out of jail.
我需要出狱。
I've lost my job.
我失业了。
I've had to drop out of school.
我不得不退学。
Well, the first thing I'm telling him is whoa, slow up, man.
好吧，我告诉他的第一件事就是哇，慢点，伙计。
You know, tell me about what happened.
你知道，告诉我发生了什么事。
Are you guilty of this or not?
你是否有罪？
Trastavien said he wasn't guilty.
特拉斯塔维安说他无罪。
He said he didn't know anything about the burglary.
他表示，他对盗窃案一无所知。
But Jack pointed to the warrant which said Trastavien's DNA had been collected from a hat.
但杰克指出了搜查令，上面说特拉斯塔维恩的 DNA 是从一顶帽子里采集的。
Trastavien explained that he'd had lots of hats over the years.
特拉斯塔维安解释说，这些年来他戴过很多帽子。
He'd collected hats.
他收集了帽子。
He'd lost hats.
他丢了帽子。
He'd traded hats.
他交换了帽子。
Even if his DNA was on a hat at the scene, it wasn't proof he'd been there.
即使现场帽子上有他的 DNA，也不能证明他曾到过那里。
Jack believed him.
杰克相信他。
You know, look, if you're a good trial lawyer you can detect the BS, right?
你知道，听着，如果你是一名优秀的出庭律师，你就能发现废话，对吧？
OK.
好的。
I mean, you get pretty good at it.
我的意思是，你很擅长。
I just walked out of there and my gut was telling me this kid wasn't guilty of what he was charged with.
我刚走出那里，我的直觉告诉我，这个孩子并没有犯下他所被指控的罪行。
Also, if he had done this burglary, he would have had more information to give me.
而且，如果这起盗窃案是他干的，他就会向我提供更多信息。
I don't find that clients are shy about sharing information with their lawyer, OK.
我发现客户并不羞于与律师分享信息，好吧。
So it's not like the other conversations I had in my career with criminal defendants that were guilty.
因此，这与我在职业生涯中与有罪的刑事被告进行的其他对话不同。
Because let me tell you, they all know what's going on.
因为让我告诉你，他们都知道发生了什么事。
And they all ask you, well, does the state know about this?
他们都问你，国家知道这件事吗？
What witnesses do they have?
他们有什么证人？
Did they find this?
他们找到这个了吗？
And Mr. Hardy knew precious little about this.
哈代先生对此知之甚少。
Jack was suddenly invested in the case.
杰克突然对这个案子投入了精力。
Up till now he'd assumed Trastavien was probably guilty.
到目前为止，他一直认为特拉斯塔维安可能有罪。
In his experience, that's true of most people accused of crimes.
根据他的经验，大多数被指控犯罪的人都是如此。
Around the office, Jack had been calling Trastavien "our criminal."
在办公室里，杰克一直称特拉斯塔维恩为“我们的罪犯”。
But now he was ready to fight for him, go to trial.
但现在他已经准备好为他而战，接受审判。
Which presented a problem.
这提出了一个问题。
His client didn't want to do that.
他的客户不想这样做。
Unlike Jack, Trastavien did have some recent experience in the criminal justice system.
与杰克不同，特拉斯塔维恩最近确实在刑事司法系统方面有一些经验。
He'd stood in front of a lot of judges.
他站在很多评委面前。
He'd spent three years in prison.
他在监狱里度过了三年。
And he knew most everybody takes a plea.
他知道大多数人都会提出请求。
Nobody goes to trial.
没有人接受审判。
He told Jack--
他告诉杰克——
I'll just plead guilty to anything within a year to go home.
我会在一年内认罪并回家。
I'm like, I just want to go home.
我想，我只是想回家。
I could take a year of something, two years of probation.
我可以接受一年的工作，两年的缓刑。
So you were saying you were ready to plead guilty to just about anything if you could get out in a year.
所以你说如果你能在一年内出狱，你准备好承认任何有罪。
I mean, you've kind of--
我的意思是，你有点——
Misdemeanor, that's what I was really trying to just get a misdemeanor.
轻罪，这就是我真正想得到的轻罪。
But Jack was not hearing that.
但杰克没有听到。
He wanted a trial.
他想要审判。
Did Jack explain to you that he was not a criminal defense attorney?
杰克有向你解释过他不是刑事辩护律师吗？
Oh, yes, sir.
哦，是的，先生。
He had let me know that from the beginning.
他从一开始就让我知道了这一点。
How did you react when you heard this was his first criminal case in like 30 years?
当你听说这是他近30年来的第一起刑事案件时，你有何反应？
I really was like, after I just really sat down and talked to him I was like at peace.
我真的觉得，在我真正坐下来和他交谈之后，我感觉很平静。
Like, I know I'm in here.
就像，我知道我在这里。
I know somebody, somebody came to see me.
我认识一个人，有人来看我。
I know somebody that wants to help me.
我知道有人想帮助我。
So now Jack had to prepare a case.
所以现在杰克必须准备一个案子。
Luckily, Tammy had been doing all that secret work on the case behind Jack's back.
幸运的是，塔米一直在背着杰克做这起案件的所有秘密工作。
Or not so secret, it turns out.
事实证明，或者说并不是那么秘密。
Turns out the bear knows what's going on in his woods.
事实证明，这只熊知道他的树林里发生了什么。
Well yeah, I walk right by her desk all the time.
嗯，是的，我一直从她的办公桌旁边走过。
I see what's up on her computer screen.
我看到她的电脑屏幕上发生了什么。
By the time they got to trial, Tammy worked up a master timeline, a list of evidence, a list of evidence and discovery not produced, questions to use in cross-examination, and 126 pages of details on other possible suspects.
当他们进入审判阶段时，塔米已经制定了一个主要时间表、一份证据清单、一份未出示的证据和发现清单、交叉询问中使用的问题，以及其他可能嫌疑人的 126 页详细信息。
June 22, 2015, on this date, Jack and Trastavien had their first preliminary examination.
2015年6月22日，这一天，杰克和特拉斯塔维恩进行了第一次初步检查。
Basically, it was a pre-trial court date where the DA was supposed to outline their case against Trastavien and prove why he should still be held in jail.
基本上，这是一个预审法庭日期，地方检察官应该概述他们针对特拉斯塔维恩的案件，并证明为什么他仍然应该被关押在监狱里。
Now remember, Jack and Trastavien were going to walk into court and plead not guilty.
现在请记住，杰克和特拉斯塔维恩将走进法庭并表示无罪。
That was the plan.
这就是计划。
But in court that day, Trastavien got cold feet.
但那天在法庭上，特拉斯塔维安临阵退缩。
When he walks in and he comes up to the counsel table, when they brought him down from the jail.
当他走进律师席，当他们把他从监狱带下来时。
First thing he said to me was--
他对我说的第一句话是——
I plead guilty right now.
我现在认罪了。
David Zax That is, cop a plea, take a deal, no trial.
大卫·扎克斯（David Zax） 也就是说，接受认罪，达成协议，不进行审判。
I said no, you're not doing that.
我说不，你不会那样做。
And he goes, but I want to.
他走了，但我想去。
And I said shut up.
我说闭嘴。
Just trust me for a minute.
请相信我一分钟。
His confidence, it's how he talk with that baritone voice, you can't help but be like, well yes, sir.
他的自信，就是他用男中音说话的方式，你会情不自禁地说，是的，先生。
I'm going to just sit back and let you do it then.
我会坐下来让你去做。
I'm sure that here I was, this old, rich, fat, ugly, white guy telling this young black man the way of the world and the lay of the land.
我确信我就在这里，这个年长、富有、肥胖、丑陋的白人正在向这个年轻的黑人讲述世界的方式和这片土地的情况。
And I'm sure he thought man, what have I gotten stuck with?
我确信他会想，我到底被什么困住了？
I've talked to a couple defense attorneys about Jack's strategy to go to trial.
我已经和几位辩护律师讨论了杰克出庭的策略。
And they agreed it was risky.
他们一致认为这是有风险的。
A public defender who was in the courtroom that day told me she thought it was reckless.
那天在法庭上的一名公设辩护律师告诉我，她认为这是鲁莽的行为。
Because first of all, if your client is interested in a plea deal, you're supposed to explore that, see what the DA might be willing to offer.
因为首先，如果你的客户对认罪协议感兴趣，你应该探索这一点，看看地方检察官可能愿意提供什么。
Jack refused to do that.
杰克拒绝这样做。
And Trastavien was right, he really could face a lot more time if he went to trial.
特拉斯塔维安是对的，如果他接受审判，他确实可能面临更多的时间。
This was, after all, Caddo Parish.
毕竟，这是卡多教区。
Caddo Parish is unique for how harsh their system is and can be.
卡多教区的独特之处在于其制度的严酷程度和可能的严酷程度。
This is Derwyn Bunton, a public defender who spent the early part of his career working cases in Caddo.
我是德温·邦顿 (Derwyn Bunton)，他是一名公设辩护律师，职业生涯的早期阶段是在卡多 (Caddo) 处理案件。
These days, he's the chief public defender across the state in New Orleans.
如今，他是新奥尔良全州的首席公共辩护人。
Caddo Parish has a reputation for tough, long sentences.
卡多教区以刑期严厉、刑期长而闻名。
And up until recently, led the state in capital convictions, in death sentences for a number of years.
直到最近，多年来，他在死刑和死刑判决方面一直领先于该州。
Derwyn told me the story of one case he handled in Caddo.
德文向我讲述了他在卡多处理的一个案件的故事。
He was representing a 14-year-old who coincidentally was charged with the same crime as Trastavien, simple burglary of an inhabited dwelling.
他所代理的一名 14 岁少年恰巧被指控犯有与 Trastavien 相同的罪行，即简单入室盗窃住宅。
And the allegation was he went into a neighbor's house without permission and took a Pepsi and a Hot Pocket.
指控是他未经许可进入邻居家，拿走了百事可乐和热口袋。
So he drank the Pepsi, ate the Hot Pocket, knew the neighbor.
于是他喝了百事可乐，吃了热袋，认识了邻居。
He got caught.
他被抓住了。
And he got sentenced to seven years.
他被判处七年徒刑。
He was going to stay in juvenile prison until he was 21.
他将在少年监狱里待到21岁。
And I just thought that there was some sort of typo.
我只是认为有某种打字错误。
No damage, no one was hurt, and he was 14.
没有造成任何损坏，没有人受伤，而且他才 14 岁。
And they're going to leave him in jail till he's essentially a grown man.
他们将把他留在监狱里，直到他基本上成为一个成年人。
We were able to get him out early with some good work.
通过一些出色的工作，我们能够让他早日离开。
But they gave him seven years without blinking and didn't even go to trial.
但他们却毫不眨眼地判了他七年，甚至没有接受审判。
That's Caddo Parish.
那是卡多教区。
Attorneys told me if Trastavien took a plea, he'd probably get about the same as that teenager, five to eight years.
律师告诉我，如果特拉斯塔维安提出抗辩，他可能会被判和那个少年一样的刑期，五到八年。
But if you push for trial in lost, the minimum he'd get, given his priors, would be 20 years.
但如果你要求对《迷失》进行审判，考虑到他的前科，他至少会被判 20 年徒刑。
And he could get life.
他可以获得生命。
So through the summer, Jack and Trastavien have this series of pre-trial court dates.
因此，整个夏天，杰克和特拉斯塔维恩都有一系列预审法庭约会。
The main reason they're noteworthy is because at every one, Jack is being a giant pain in the ass, demanding a speedy trial, berating the young DA on this case, insisting they free Trastavien without bail.
他们值得注意的主要原因是，杰克在每一起案件中都是一个巨大的麻烦，要求迅速审判，在这起案件中斥责年轻的地方检察官，坚持要求他们释放特拉斯塔维恩而不保释。
Trastavien says people in the stands were oohing and ahhing at Jack's performance.
特拉斯塔维恩说，看台上的人们对杰克的表现赞不绝口。
One old woman said, God is good.
一位老妇人说，上帝是良善的。
A trial date was set for November 30.
审判日期定为 11 月 30 日。
And the judge released Trastavien to wait out the days till trial at home.
法官释放了特拉斯塔维安，让他在家等待审判。
At that point, he'd spent 105 days in jail.
那时，他已经在监狱里度过了 105 天。
Here's the riskiest thing about Jack's demand for a speedy trial, he demanded it without even knowing all the evidence the state had on Trastavien.
杰克要求迅速审判的最危险之处在于，他甚至在不知道州政府掌握的关于特拉斯塔维恩的所有证据的情况下就提出了要求。
Not till September did that big box of files Tammy was expecting finally come in from the DA's office.
直到九月，塔米期待的那一大箱文件终于从地方检察官办公室送来。
It was more of a packet, 54 pages stuffed into a manila envelope.
它更像是一个小包，有 54 页内容被塞进一个马尼拉信封里。
Tammy tore into it as soon as it came.
塔米一到就撕碎了它。
And it turned out that the case against Trastavien was even weaker than they thought.
事实证明，针对特拉斯塔维安的案件比他们想象的还要弱。
Because the crime lab report, the one that pointed out Trastavien's DNA had been found on a hat, it said there was actually DNA from two people on the hat.
因为犯罪实验室的报告指出，在帽子上发现了特拉斯塔维恩的DNA，它说帽子上实际上有两个人的DNA。
Someone else besides Trastavien had worn that hat.
除了特拉斯塔维安之外，还有其他人戴过那顶帽子。
So they had a good case after all.
所以他们毕竟有一个很好的案例。
It's the Saturday after Thanksgiving, two days before the trial that could send Trastavien away for decades.
这是感恩节后的星期六，距离审判还有两天，特拉斯塔维安可能会离开这里几十年。
Jack and Tammy are supposed to be preparing, but when Tammy gets to the office--
杰克和塔米应该做好准备，但是当塔米到达办公室时——
I have a note in my chair that says I'm sick.
我的椅子上有一张纸条，上面写着我病了。
The note, of course, was from Jack.
这张纸条当然是杰克写的。
He came into work, just wanted to complain.
他上班的时候，只是想抱怨一下。
I got some horrible Siberian death crud upper respiratory infection.
我得了一些可怕的西伯利亚死亡病和上呼吸道感染。
And I'm like what?
而我就像什么？
Jack Bailey Instead of being at home Thanksgiving with my family, Tammy and I are up here getting prepared for trial.
杰克·贝利 (Jack Bailey) 感恩节和我没有在家里和家人一起过，而是在这里为审判做准备。
We're working on PowerPoints, timelines.
我们正在制作 PowerPoint、时间表。
Preparing documents, making sure I's are dotted and T's are crossed.
准备文件，确保 I 是虚线，T 是划线。
Because I'm freaking out.
因为我吓坏了。
I am freaking out.
我吓坏了。
Years ago I had gotten a series of videotapes, VHS tapes from Gerry Spence about voir dire and opening statement.
几年前，我从格里·斯宾塞那里得到了一系列关于预审和开场陈词的录像带。
Gerry Spence is a famed trial lawyer, a kind of legal guru.
格里·斯彭斯（Gerry Spence）是一位著名的审判律师，可以说是法律大师。
Voire dire is jury selection.
Voire Dire 是陪审团的选择。
And I pulled my old TV out in the back that you can still play VHS tapes in.
我把后面的旧电视拉了出来，你仍然可以在上面播放 VHS 磁带。
And I'm sitting in here, you know, drinking tea and eating ibuprofen and watching Gerry Spence tapes, taking notes to remember how to do this the right way, you know?
我坐在这里，你知道，喝着茶，吃着布洛芬，看着 Gerry Spence 的磁带，记笔记以记住如何以正确的方式做到这一点，你知道吗？
Monday, November 30, the day of the trial.
11 月 30 日星期一，审判日。
Jack, Tammy, and Trastavien all enter the court house.
杰克、塔米和特拉斯塔维恩都进入了法院。
Jack's eager.
杰克很渴望。
He's ready.
他准备好了。
He loves this part of the job.
他喜欢这部分工作。
But before anything official begins, the young DA on this case, Scott Brady, he pulls Jack aside and tells him something totally shocking.
但在正式开始之前，负责此案的年轻检察官斯科特·布雷迪 (Scott Brady) 将杰克拉到一边，告诉他一些完全令人震惊的事情。
He's going to nolle pros the case.
他要处理这个案子。
In other words, I'm dropping the charges.
换句话说，我要撤销指控。
And at that point I said some things that I can't tell you if you're going to play them on the radio.
那时我说了一些我无法告诉你的事情，如果你要在收音机上播放的话。
Why don't you tell us and then will determine if we--
你为什么不告诉我们，然后我们将决定是否——
That's my producer saying, why don't you tell us and we'll determine if we can play it.
我的制作人说，你为什么不告诉我们，我们将决定是否可以播放它。
I said, you god damn mother fucking son of a bitch, you didn't read your goddamn file until this weekend, did you?
我说，你这个该死的混蛋，你直到这个周末才读你的该死的文件，是吗？
In other words, you just realized how weak your case was.
换句话说，你刚刚意识到你的案子有多么薄弱。
If you'd done that months ago you would have saved me and my client a lot of trouble.
如果你几个月前就这么做了，你就会为我和我的客户省去很多麻烦。
Scott Brady declined to comment for our story, but a colleague claims that he was ready for trial that day.
斯科特·布雷迪拒绝对我们的报道发表评论，但一位同事声称他已准备好当天接受审判。
So Jack has this side conversation with the DA and knows the charges against Trastavien are going to be dropped.
因此，杰克与地方检察官进行了私下交谈，他知道对特拉斯塔维恩的指控将被撤销。
But nobody else does.
但没有其他人这样做。
Not the judge, not Tammy and Trastavien, who are there after all these months of preparation waiting for the trial to start.
不是法官，不是塔米和特拉斯塔维恩，他们经过几个月的准备等待审判开始。
The gavel strikes.
木槌敲响。
The court's in session.
法庭正在开庭。
We are first.
我们是第一。
The assistant DA gets up and says your honor, in the matter State vs. Trastavien Hardy, and then he says, your honor, the state is dismissing the charges with nothing else.
助理检察官站起来，对法官大人说，在州诉特拉斯塔维安·哈迪案中，然后他说，法官大人，州政府将驳回指控，仅此而已。
And that was it.
就是这样。
As soon as I walked up there I'm like, oh yes.
我一走到那里，我就想，哦，是的。
Thank you, Jesus.
谢谢你，耶稣。
That was the first thing I said, really.
这是我说的第一句话，真的。
I was like thank you, Jesus.
我当时就想谢谢你，耶稣。
I really felt overwhelmed.
我真的感到不知所措。
I was like about time.
我当时想是时候了。
But I'm all of a sudden going what?
但我突然要去做什么？
What just happened?
刚刚发生了什么？
We're here.
我们到了。
We're ready.
我们准备好了。
They just stomped the show.
他们只是踩了演出。
The show, is just-- but that's what I wanted.
这个节目只是——但这就是我想要的。
But then I won't know the outcome.
但到那时我就不知道结果了。
But this is the outcome.
但这就是结果。
But wait a minute, they need to know that Mr Hardy didn't do this.
但等一下，他们需要知道哈迪先生没有这样做。
And then Mr Bailey, he said, your honor--
然后贝利先生，他说，尊敬的——
I refused to leave the courtroom without putting some things on the record.
我拒绝在没有将一些事情记录在案的情况下离开法庭。
Several defense attorneys told me this was a pretty crazy thing Jack was doing.
几位辩护律师告诉我，杰克正在做一件非常疯狂的事情。
The DA was ready to dismiss the charges.
地方检察官准备驳回指控。
Normally, you'd say thank you and move on.
通常情况下，你会说声谢谢然后继续前进。
What if Jack said something that made the DA change his mind?
如果杰克说了一些让地方检察官改变主意的话怎么办？
Tammy was worried.
塔米很担心。
And now I'm going to pass out right here in this chair.
现在我就要在这把椅子上昏倒了。
What is he doing?
他在做什么？
What is happening?
怎么了？
And Mr Hardy had been standing up there with him.
哈迪先生一直和他一起站在那里。
And so he's really, he turns around and looks at me like is this OK?
所以他真的，他转过身来看着我，好像这样可以吗？
Really just looked back like whoa, what's going on now?
真的只是回头看看，哇，现在发生了什么？
And I'm sure my look told him, this is not OK on any level.
我确信我的表情告诉他，这在任何层面上都是不好的。
This is not OK.
这是不行的。
You should panic.
你应该恐慌。
Come sit down.
过来坐下。
Get away from him.
离他远点。
Stop.
停止。
Because I do know Mr. Bailey.
因为我确实认识贝利先生。
And he's going to say what he believes needs to be said.
他会说出他认为需要说的话。
I said judge, I have a statement I want to make for the record to protect Mr Hardy in the future if this arrest prosecution is ever held against him if you don't mind.
我说，法官，如果您不介意的话，我想发表一份声明记录在案，以便将来如果对哈迪先生进行逮捕起诉的话，可以保护他。
I said judge, this man is factually innocent.
我说法官，这个人其实是无辜的。
And I'm sorry the court is not going to get to see me excoriate the police and the district attorney's office in this case.
我很抱歉法庭不会看到我在这起案件中严厉斥责警察和地方检察官办公室。
Jack's speech lasted about 10 minutes.
杰克的演讲持续了大约10分钟。
He ranted about the scant evidence against his client, about the DA, about having to take this case at all.
他抱怨说，针对他的当事人、地方检察官的证据不足，甚至不得不接手这个案子。
So you can put on the record, judge, I'm angry, and I'm angry at the system.
所以你可以记录下来，判断一下，我很生气，我对这个系统很生气。
When Jack was done, the judge then turned to Scott Brady and asked, Mr. DA, anything further?
杰克说完后，法官转向斯科特·布雷迪问，DA 先生，还有什么吗？
The DA, Scott Brady, answered the judge, no, sir.
地方检察官斯科特·布雷迪回答法官，不，先生。
The matter has been dismissed.
此事已被驳回。
The judge turned to Trastavien, you're free to go, he said.
法官转向特拉斯塔维安，他说，你可以走了。
Since Scott Brady won't do an interview, we don't know why he dropped the case.
由于斯科特·布雷迪不会接受采访，我们不知道他为何放弃此案。
There are a few factors here.
这里有几个因素。
The victim didn't show up in court.
受害人没有出庭。
And the crime, in the scheme of things, wasn't that serious.
从事情的计划来看，犯罪并没有那么严重。
But both public defenders who were in the courtroom that day told me they thought Jack might have been the deciding factor.
但那天在法庭上的两名公设辩护人告诉我，他们认为杰克可能是决定因素。
One of them, Sarah Smith, said Jack made it clear he was going to fight tooth and nail on every procedural matter.
其中一位莎拉·史密斯（Sarah Smith）表示，杰克明确表示，他将在每一个程序问题上竭尽全力。
The motions that Jack was making, the 10 minute speeches, and not necessarily following the traditional order of this is how criminal court is supposed to work.
杰克提出的动议、10 分钟的演讲，并不一定遵循传统的顺序，这才是刑事法庭应该如何运作的。
Jack definitely wasn't making this an easy process.
杰克绝对没有让这个过程变得容易。
She says a normal public defender doesn't have time to fight like that for all their clients.
她说，普通的公设辩护人没有时间为所有客户进行这样的斗争。
And once Jack made things so difficult, the DA might have decided he didn't have time to deal with it either.
一旦杰克让事情变得如此困难，地方检察官可能会认为他也没有时间处理这件事。
Trastavien's been free for over a year now.
Trastavien 已经免费一年多了。
He got a job as a fry cook at a Sonic Drive-In.
他在索尼克汽车餐厅找到了一份煎炸厨师的工作。
He says he wants to start school again next year.
他说他想明年重新开始上学。
And he's got a little girl, Carla.
他还有一个小女孩，卡拉。
He's spending a lot of time with her.
他花了很多时间和她在一起。
Right as this story was taking place, Caddo Parish elected a new top DA, the first black DA in its history.
就在这个故事发生的时候，卡多教区选举了一位新的顶级检察官，这是该教区历史上第一位黑人检察官。
One of his first actions was getting rid of nine assistant district attorneys in his office.
他的首要行动之一就是解雇了办公室的九名助理地区检察官。
Scott Brady, who prosecuted the case against Trastavien, was among them.
起诉特拉斯塔维恩案的斯科特·布雷迪（Scott Brady）就是其中之一。
Just this month, the public defender's office in Caddo Parish stopped the practice of farming out cases to private attorneys.
就在本月，卡多教区的公设辩护人办公室停止了将案件外包给私人律师的做法。
Some funding came through, for now.
目前已经收到了一些资金。
Jack, meanwhile, has been pushing for more funding for public defenders.
与此同时，杰克一直在推动为公设辩护人提供更多资金。
He went to the Louisiana State Legislature, met with three state senators and the public defender lobbyist.
他前往路易斯安那州议会，会见了三名州参议员和公设辩护人说客。
He offered to testify.
他主动提出出庭作证。
He said he'd do anything to help.
他说他会尽一切努力提供帮助。
He does not want another case like this.
他不想再遇到这样的案件。
David Zax.
大卫·扎克斯.
Coming up, how a public park in the suburbs of Virginia helped beat the Nazis.
接下来，我们将介绍弗吉尼亚郊区的一个公园如何帮助击败纳粹。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
这就是美国生活，我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose some theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, Deep End of the Pool.
今天的节目是《泳池深处》。
Stories of people thrown into serious situations they have no skills for, where they have to figure out what to do on the fly.
故事讲述了人们陷入了他们没有技能的严重境地，他们必须在匆忙中弄清楚该怎么做。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, Mein Camp.
第二幕，美因营地。
Sometimes an entire government has to dive into the deep end of the pool and do something it has never done before.
有时，整个政府必须潜入泳池的最深处，做一些以前从未做过的事情。
One of our producers, Karen Duffin, has the story of the US government doing just that in a high stakes sink or swim situation.
我们的制片人之一凯伦·达芬 (Karen Duffin) 讲述了美国政府在高风险的情况下这样做的故事。
Though the reason we know about this government program at all is actually kind of an accident.
尽管我们了解这个政府计划的原因实际上是一个意外。
Karen explains.
凯伦解释道。
Back in 2006, a woman named Sandy Gray decided to go on a tour of the park near her house in suburban Virginia.
早在 2006 年，一位名叫桑迪·格雷 (Sandy Gray) 的女士决定去弗吉尼亚州郊区她家附近的公园游览。
It's a national park, but less like Yellowstone, more like a neighborhood park-- soccer fields, softball diamonds, picnic pavilions.
这是一个国家公园，但不像黄石公园，更像是一个社区公园——有足球场、垒球场、野餐亭。
Over 100 acres.
超过100英亩。
It's called Fort Hunt Park.
它叫亨特堡公园。
The park ranger ran through the history of the place.
公园管理员讲述了这个地方的历史。
She told Sandy's group it had been part of George Washington's estate.
她告诉桑迪的小组，它是乔治·华盛顿庄园的一部分。
She pointed to structures from the Spanish-American war.
她指出了美西战争的结构。
But when she got to World War II, she said that is a mystery.
但当她谈到第二次世界大战时，她说这是一个谜。
We know there was a secret military program here, code named PO Box 1142.
我们知道这里有一个秘密军事计划，代号为 PO Box 1142。
She said the rangers had been trying for years to figure out what it was, even asked the Pentagon about it.
她说，护林员多年来一直试图弄清楚它是什么，甚至询问了五角大楼。
But they said they thought the files had been destroyed.
但他们表示，他们认为这些文件已被销毁。
And when we got to this point, she said we probably never will know the whole story.
当我们谈到这一点时，她说我们可能永远不会知道整个故事。
This is Sandy.
这是桑迪。
Turned out she knew something the rangers didn't.
原来她知道一些护林员不知道的事情。
So I was thinking whether or not I should say anything because I was questioning whether I was supposed to know anything.
所以我在想我是否应该说些什么，因为我在质疑我是否应该知道任何事情。
So I raised my hand and I said you know, I think I can hook you up with someone who was here during that time.
所以我举起了手，我说你知道，我想我可以给你介绍一下当时在场的人。
Sandy had never heard of PO Box 1142.
桑迪从未听说过邮政信箱 1142。
But she remembered that her neighbor had said he'd worked at the site during the war.
但她记得她的邻居说他在战争期间曾在该工地工作过。
So she gave the rangers his name, Fred Michel.
于是她给护林员起了名字：弗雷德·米歇尔。
And later, back at the office, they huddled around a speaker phone and they dialed his number.
后来，回到办公室，他们围坐在免提电话旁，拨通了他的号码。
The head park ranger at the time was Vince Santucci.
当时的公园管理员主管是文斯·桑图奇 (Vince Santucci)。
He told Fred they were calling about PO Box 1142.
他告诉 Fred，他们打电话询问的是 1142 号邮政信箱。
And there was a little bit of silence.
一阵沉默。
And the first comment that comes back is how do you know about PO Box 1142?
第一条评论是你是怎么知道 PO Box 1142 的？
So we went in to explain what we were doing.
所以我们进去解释我们在做什么。
And his response was that he's not able to share anything with us because he signed a secrecy agreement.
他的回应是，他无法与我们分享任何内容，因为他签署了保密协议。
In fact, that he didn't tell his wife of 65 years.
事实上，他并没有告诉结婚65年的妻子。
And he said, I wish I could share it with you, but he couldn't.
他说，我希望能与你分享，但他不能。
The rangers hung up and panicked.
护林员们挂断了电话，惊慌失措。
They worried Fred might be their only shot.
他们担心弗雷德可能是他们唯一的机会。
World War II vets were in their 80s, 90s, or dead.
二战老兵要么是80多岁，要么是90多岁，要么已经去世了。
So they went back to the Pentagon.
于是他们又回到了五角大楼。
And said, we found a guy, but he won't talk.
并说，我们找到了一个人，但他不肯说话。
Can you help?
你能帮忙吗？
So the director of Army Intelligence wrote Fred a letter clearing him to speak.
因此，陆军情报总监给弗雷德写了一封信，允许他发言。
Here's Vince.
这是文斯。
And so when we forwarded that to Fred Michel, he said, OK, what do you want to know?
因此，当我们将其转发给 Fred Michel 时，他说，好吧，你想知道什么？
The rangers went to Fred's house to interview him.
护林员前往弗雷德家采访他。
I'm here in the home of Frederick and Lucille Michel conducting a series of oral history interviews about their memories of Fort Hunt.
我在弗雷德里克·米歇尔和露西尔·米歇尔的家中进行了一系列关于他们对亨特堡记忆的口述历史采访。
This is park ranger Brandon Bies.
我是公园管理员布兰登·比斯。
He did a lot of these interviews.
他做了很多这样的采访。
And for 4 and 1/2 hours, Fred told them about PO Box 1142.
在 4 又 1/2 小时的时间里，弗雷德向他们讲述了邮政信箱 1142 的情况。
Then he gave them more names.
然后他给了他们更多的名字。
They made more calls, did more interviews.
他们打了更多电话，进行了更多采访。
We were told that we're not going to talk, not to our wives, not to anybody.
我们被告知我们不会说话，不会和我们的妻子，不会和任何人。
We got the photographs from the Pentagon.
我们从五角大楼得到了照片。
And everything--
还有一切——
They talked to 70 men.
他们与 70 名男子进行了交谈。
For over 60 years, these men had all been living with the same secret.
六十多年来，这些人一直生活在同一个秘密中。
This suburban park had been a top secret camp for interrogating Nazi prisoners of war.
这个郊区公园曾是审问纳粹战俘的绝密营地。
And the men doing the interrogations, they were Jews.
进行审讯的人是犹太人。
Lots of them, anyway.
无论如何，有很多。
European Jews who just fled the Nazis.
刚刚逃离纳粹的欧洲犹太人。
Many still had family in concentration camps.
许多人的家人仍在集中营中。
These men were specifically recruited because they spoke German, and because they understood the nuances of German culture and psychology, slang, cultural references, small details that an American would miss.
这些人之所以被专门招募，是因为他们会说德语，也因为他们了解德国文化和心理、俚语、文化参考以及美国人可能会错过的小细节的细微差别。
This was the American military's first attempt to create a program like this for interrogating prisoners.
这是美国军方首次尝试创建此类审讯囚犯的程序。
First time we approached interrogation in a systematic and strategic way, not just to learn things like where's the bomb about to go off, but to get a whole picture of the enemy's plans.
我们第一次以系统和战略的方式进行审讯，不仅仅是为了了解炸弹将在哪里爆炸等信息，而是为了全面了解敌人的计划。
And they were figuring out how to do this in the middle of the deadliest armed conflict in world history.
他们正在研究如何在世界历史上最致命的武装冲突中做到这一点。
And they succeeded.
他们成功了。
By the end of the war, they'd extracted a ton of really important intelligence about where the Allies should bomb, about German weapons still being developed, about the structure of the German Army.
到战争结束时，他们已经提取了大量非常重要的情报，包括盟军应该轰炸哪里、仍在开发的德国武器以及德国陆军的结构。
One of the Enigma machines was captured using intel discovered at PO Box 1142.
使用在 1142 号邮政信箱发现的情报捕获了其中一台恩尼格玛密码机。
The approach they used didn't include any kind of physical force.
他们使用的方法不包括任何体力。
In the hundreds of previously classified files that I've read, torture is never considered.
在我读过的数百份先前保密的文件中，从未考虑过酷刑。
Instead, they used this approach.
相反，他们使用了这种方法。
This is from a World War II interrogation training film.
这是一部二战审讯训练影片。
Make your interrogation as casual as possible.
让你的审讯尽可能随意。
Try to make the prisoner feel that you're his friend, the first one he's met since his capture.
试着让囚犯觉得你是他的朋友，是他被捕后见到的第一个朋友。
All are human underneath.
底下都是人。
Our interrogator's job is to play upon those weaknesses, to help make up the complete intelligence picture.
我们审讯员的工作就是利用这些弱点，帮助构建完整的情报图景。
And here's a mock interrogation from the film.
这是电影中的模拟审讯。
Why did you have this Spanish dictionary in your plane?
你为什么在飞机上有这本西班牙语词典？
Just improving my mind.
只是提高我的思想。
Interegator Who do you think you're fooling, Tenetti?
整合者：你认为你在愚弄谁，特内蒂？
Your name is right there on the cover.
你的名字就在封面上。
Why were you flying back to Spain?
你为什么要飞回西班牙？
You must not lie to me.
你不可以对我撒谎。
I only tell the truth.
我只说实话。
Interegator Now don't try to give me that routine.
Interegator 现在不要试图给我那个例程。
Time.
时间。
Time, gentlemen.
时间，先生们。
We'll stop there.
我们就停在那里。
I'm going to ask for criticisms.
我要请大家批评指正。
Any volunteers?
有志愿者吗？
Yes, lieutenant?
是吗，中尉？
It's not good to lose your temper that way, especially with such a dumb, good-natured type.
那样发脾气是不好的，尤其是对这样一个又蠢又好脾气的人。
It seems self-evident now, but at the time, it was sort of a revelation that you could get information by playing on a prisoner's psychology.
现在看来这是不言而喻的，但在当时，这有点像一种启示，你可以通过利用囚犯的心理来获取信息。
At the end of another mock interrogation, the instructor reviewed what worked on that prisoner.
在另一次模拟审讯结束时，教官回顾了对该囚犯的效果。
You noticed how he won the prisoner's gratitude by promising to inform his family of his safety.
你注意到他如何通过承诺通知囚犯的家人他的安全而赢得了囚犯的感激。
How he established immediate contact through mutual interest in the Munich theater.
他如何通过对慕尼黑剧院的共同兴趣建立了立即联系。
How he played on the Bavarian's prejudice against his Prussian lieutenant.
他如何利用巴伐利亚人对他的普鲁士副官的偏见。
How he pretended to know more about the new Heinkel 177s than the Sergeant, thereby piquing his vanity and causing him to talk.
他如何假装比中士更了解新款 Heinkel 177，从而激起他的虚荣心并让他开口说话。
As a result, he is now in possession of valuable information.
结果，他现在掌握了有价值的信息。
It's like a high stakes game of psychological poker.
这就像一场高风险的心理扑克游戏。
To win, you have to see the enemy in front of you as a nuanced human.
为了获胜，你必须将你面前的敌人视为细致入微的人。
They were taught that even feeling too much hostility about the enemy would blind them.
他们被教导说，即使对敌人抱有太多的敌意也会让他们盲目。
I spent years studying this camp.
我花了几年时间研究这个训练营。
And what I wanted to know was the most basic thing.
我想知道的是最基本的事情。
What it was like for these Jewish men facing off with the Nazis in such a personal way.
这些犹太男子以如此个人的方式与纳粹对抗是什么感觉？
Facing people who'd driven some of them out of their country, killed their families.
面对那些将他们中的一些人赶出自己的国家、杀害他们的家人的人。
So I pestered the government until they released over 1,000 pages of interviews with these guys.
所以我一直纠缠政府，直到他们公布了 1000 多页对这些人的采访。
And I personally spoke with 10 of them or their families if they weren't still alive.
我亲自与其中 10 人或他们的家人（如果他们还活着的话）进行了交谈。
And in this mountain of material, many of them said they were happy to do the work.
在这堆积如山的材料中，他们中的许多人表示他们很乐意做这项工作。
It meant helping beat the Nazis.
这意味着帮助击败纳粹。
But some had more complicated feelings, like this guy, Paul Fairbrook, who the park rangers interviewed in 2008.
但有些人的感受更为复杂，比如公园管理员在 2008 年采访的保罗·费尔布鲁克 (Paul Fairbrook)。
He was German, Jewish.
他是德国人，犹太人。
Said he agreed with not using force on the Nazis, but befriending them, no way.
说他同意不对纳粹使用武力，但与他们交朋友，没门。
Many of us German Jewish soldiers resented the fact that some of our offices were fraternizing with German officers, Nazis.
我们许多德国犹太士兵对我们的一些办公室与德国军官、纳粹分子交好表示不满。
Because every German officer was a Nazi, you know.
因为每个德国军官都是纳粹分子，你知道。
And here we are fighting as German Jews for America and these jerks, our officers, are fraternizing with the people who were our enemies.
在这里，我们作为德国犹太人为美国而战，而这些混蛋，我们的军官，正在与我们的敌人称兄道弟。
But then there was this guy, Henry Kolm.
但后来有一个人，亨利·科尔姆。
He says that working that closely with the Nazis changed his opinion of them.
他说，与纳粹的密切合作改变了他对他们的看法。
When you get to know somebody one-on-one you know, it's a different story.
当你一对一认识某个人时，情况就不同了。
It proved to me that there are decent people in Germany, despite the Third Reich and Nazi and Hitler and all the rest of it.
这向我证明，尽管有第三帝国、纳粹、希特勒等，德国也有正派的人。
He genuinely liked some of them.
他真的很喜欢其中的一些。
But still, when he was assigned to guard duty, he took extra precautions, just in case the prisoners realized he was Jewish.
但当他被指派看守时，他还是采取了额外的预防措施，以防囚犯意识到他是犹太人。
And I often spent all day inside that stockade.
我常常在那个寨子里待上一整天。
And that was not a very comfortable feeling.
那不是一种很舒服的感觉。
I had a pistol in my sock.
我的袜子里有一把手枪。
He said he had a pistol in his sock.
他说他的袜子里有一把手枪。
They didn't normally carry guns.
他们通常不携带枪支。
Yeah, I didn't feel very happy in a courtyard surrounded by 60 German soldiers, prisoners.
是的，在一个被 60 名德国士兵和囚犯包围的院子里，我感觉不太高兴。
You know, I'm Jewish, and they might have known that.
你知道，我是犹太人，他们可能也知道这一点。
But in the 80 or so hours of interviews, I found only one incident where someone who was trained at 1142 just flipped out on a German prisoner.
但在80多个小时的采访中，我只发现了一起在1142接受训练的人对一名德国囚犯发脾气的事件。
I'm going to talk as it comes out of my mouth.
我要从我嘴里说出这句话。
That's that point.
就是这一点。
Karen Duffin This is Werner Moritz.
凯伦·达芬 这是沃纳·莫里茨。
He died in 2010, so I never met him, but I talked with his daughter.
他于 2010 年去世，所以我从未见过他，但我和他的女儿交谈过。
She said he was a man of strong opinions, the kind of man who walks into a room and tells a joke just so that you he's there.
她说他是一个有强烈主见的人，是那种走进房间讲笑话的人，这样你就可以看到他在场。
Sharp dresser, mustache always neatly trimmed.
梳妆台很锋利，胡须总是修剪得整整齐齐。
He spent two years at PO Box 1142, where he says he was trained like everyone else not to mistreat prisoners.
他在 1142 号邮政信箱呆了两年，他说他在那里像其他人一样接受过不得虐待囚犯的培训。
And he never did at the camp.
他在营地里从来没有这样做过。
But near the end of the war, Werner was sent to Europe to help find and interrogate Nazis who now understood they were losing and were hiding out.
但在战争即将结束时，维尔纳被派往欧洲帮助寻找和审问纳粹分子，这些纳粹分子现在知道自己正在失败并躲藏起来。
We were given orders at that point, he said, to just roam around.
他说，当时我们接到命令，要四处走动。
Find the Nazis.
找到纳粹分子。
Find the bigwigs, find the big shots.
找大佬，找大佬。
So we started to roam.
于是我们开始漫游。
And one day, he says he found a high ranking Nazi named Julius Streicher.
有一天，他说他找到了一位名叫朱利叶斯·施特赖歇尔的纳粹高级官员。
Streicher was a friend of Hitler.
施特赖歇尔是希特勒的朋友。
He had masterminded some of the nastiest anti-semitic propaganda.
他策划了一些最恶劣的反犹太主义宣传。
His newspaper, Der Stürmer, played a huge role in fueling the hatred towards the Jews that led to the Holocaust.
他的报纸《Der Stürmer》在煽动对犹太人的仇恨并最终导致大屠杀方面发挥了巨大作用。
The paper's tag line was "The Jews are our misfortune."
该报的标语是“犹太人是我们的不幸”。
So he was a man that Germans, especially German Jews, were familiar with.
所以他是德国人，尤其是德国犹太人所熟悉的一个人。
So when Werner found him--
所以当维尔纳找到他时——
I was enraged.
我很生气。
I was trembling.
我浑身发抖。
There were tears in my eyes that I had captured this guy.
我眼里含着泪水，我抓住了这个家伙。
I had him to myself.
我独自拥有他。
Then I had him handcuffed, put him in the Jeep.
然后我给他戴上手铐，把他放进吉普车里。
And then we come to this little hut.
然后我们就来到了这个小小屋。
Then we put him in there.
然后我们把他放在那里。
Werner's mother and sister were killed in concentration camps.
维尔纳的母亲和妹妹在集中营中被杀害。
He'd spent three months in Buchenwald himself in 1938.
1938 年，他本人在布痕瓦尔德集中营待了三个月。
So face to face with Streicher, he made a decision.
于是，与施特赖歇尔面对面，他做出了决定。
A warning to listeners, the next part gets a little graphic.
警告听众，下一部分会有点生动。
I had to explain to the MPs.
我必须向国会议员解释。
I'm going to do things, you probably think I'm crazy.
我要做一些事情，你可能认为我疯了。
And you want to know something?
你想知道一些事情吗？
I am crazy.
我疯了。
I'm crazed.
我疯了。
I captured a Nazi of unbelievable mischief.
我抓获了一个恶作剧令人难以置信的纳粹分子。
I captured a Nazi who doesn't deserve to live.
我抓获了一个不配活下去的纳粹分子。
I would like to shoot him right now, but I know I would be court marshaled.
我现在就想开枪打死他，但我知道我会被法庭逮捕。
But I gonna, I'm gonna do what I have to do.
但我会，我会做我必须做的事。
I had him undress, and his clothes throwed to the side, underwear, everything.
我让他脱掉衣服，把他的衣服、内衣、所有东西都扔到一边。
I told him, from now on, you sleep naked on this cold floor.
我告诉他，从现在开始，你就裸睡在这冰冷的地板上。
You will not move.
你不会动。
You will not make a move.
你不会采取行动。
After that, I pissed all over him.
之后我就对他撒尿了。
Terrible thing to tell you.
告诉你一件可怕的事情。
His head and everywhere.
他的头和各处。
And he started to move his head and I said to him, don't move.
他开始移动他的头，我对他说，别动。
I have my pistol in my hand, I'll shoot you in the ass.
我手里拿着手枪，我会朝你屁股开枪。
That's how enraged I was.
我就是这么生气的。
I said, you're just to lie there to get some sense of what you Nazis did to the Jews.
我说，你只是躺在那里了解一下纳粹对犹太人做了什么。
This is only a small sense.
这只是一个小感觉。
You will not be burned here.
你不会在这里被烧伤。
We won't cook you in an oven.
我们不会用烤箱煮你。
But this German Jew will heap upon you.
但这个德国犹太人会向你扑来。
And don't you move, or else you're a dead man.
你别动，否则你就死定了。
And I left into my quarters and went to sleep.
然后我就回到自己的宿舍去睡觉了。
It's a terrible thing to tell you, but it is the truth.
告诉你这是一件可怕的事情，但这是事实。
That's what I did.
我就是这么做的。
This was an event that gets me very upset, even now.
这是一件让我非常沮丧的事件，即使现在也是如此。
For three more days he held Streicher, refused to feed him anything but potato peels that he pissed on too.
接下来的三天里，他抱着斯特赖歇尔，除了他也撒尿的土豆皮外，拒绝给他吃任何东西。
On the fourth day, Werner handed him off to American officers.
第四天，维尔纳将他交给了美国军官。
Streicher was one of only 11 men sentenced to death at the Nuremberg trials.
施特赖歇尔是纽伦堡审判中仅有的 11 名被判处死刑的人之一。
The specific records about Streicher's capture are spotty and contradictory.
关于施特赖歇尔被捕的具体记录参差不齐且相互矛盾。
Usually someone else is credited with capturing him.
通常认为是其他人捕获了他。
But we know Werner was in the area doing this kind of work at the time.
但我们知道维尔纳当时正在该地区从事此类工作。
And an expert at the National Archives told me he does think Werner could have done this.
国家档案馆的一位专家告诉我，他确实认为维尔纳可以做到这一点。
The man who helped me understand best what it was like to do this work was this last man, also Jewish.
最能帮助我理解做这项工作的人就是最后一个人，他也是犹太人。
He escaped Luxembourg and came here.
他逃离卢森堡来到这里。
Well my name is Arno Mayer.
嗯，我的名字是阿诺·梅耶尔。
And I don't want you to be generous, because it's A-R-N-O, and most people tend to add an L-D to it, which I refuse.
我不希望你太慷慨，因为它是 A-R-N-O，大多数人倾向于在其中添加 L-D，我拒绝这样做。
I met Arno at his apartment in Princeton, New Jersey.
我在阿诺位于新泽西州普林斯顿的公寓见到了他。
He was 88.
他88岁了。
Small guy, with a full head of white hair, brown eyebrows.
小个子，满头白发，棕色的眉毛。
He peppered our interview with historical facts and profanity.
他在我们的采访中充斥着历史事实和脏话。
They invented a name for me.
他们为我发明了一个名字。
The name was the Intellectual Fuck.
名字叫“智力操”。
Arno was assigned to PO Box 1142 at the end of the war.
战争结束时，阿尔诺被分配到邮政信箱 1142。
By then, the mission had changed.
到那时，使命已经改变。
Instead of interrogating Nazis, they were now asked to wine, dine, and woo them.
现在，他们不再审问纳粹分子，而是被要求喝酒、吃饭、向他们求爱。
Many Nazis now at the camp were scientists.
现在集中营里的许多纳粹分子都是科学家。
They were rounded up because the Americans wanted their scientific expertise.
他们被围捕是因为美国人想要他们的科学专业知识。
And they wanted to keep that expertise from the Russians.
他们希望不让俄罗斯人掌握这些专业知识。
Arno was what they called a morale officer.
阿尔诺是他们所说的士气官。
So what were your instructions with these guys?
那么你对这些人的指示是什么？
Keep them happy.
让他们开心。
Karen Duffin Make the Nazis happy.
凯伦·达芬 (Karen Duffin) 让纳粹开心。
Not defeat them, not get information out of them.
不打败他们，不从他们那里获取信息。
Charm them, get them to join our team.
吸引他们，让他们加入我们的团队。
It didn't make any sense.
这没有任何意义。
The whole thing didn't make any sense.
整件事没有任何意义。
I mean, the whole thing was so completely surreal, completely surreal.
我的意思是，整件事实在是太超现实了，太超现实了。
Arno was assigned to the most famous Nazi recruit, Wernher von Braun.
阿尔诺被分配给最著名的纳粹新兵沃纳·冯·布劳恩。
He designed the V-2 rocket which was targeted at civilians in London.
他设计了针对伦敦平民的 V-2 火箭。
His rocket factory used Jewish slaves.
他的火箭工厂使用犹太奴隶。
But Arno says they never discussed that.
但阿诺说他们从未讨论过这个问题。
Instead, he and the others entertained the scientists.
相反，他和其他人取悦了科学家。
Some played games with them like volleyball or chess, or brought them liquor and newspapers, took them on outings to DC.
有些人和他们一起玩排球或国际象棋等游戏，或者给他们带来酒和报纸，带他们去华盛顿郊游。
Like a concierge, but for Nazis.
就像一个礼宾员，但是是为纳粹服务的。
The scientists told Arno about their wives and their kids, their lives.
科学家们向阿诺讲述了他们的妻子、孩子和生活。
And after all that, he said it was hard to see the Nazis as just monsters.
毕竟，他说很难将纳粹视为怪物。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean, you can't just then proceed on the assumption well, these are subhumans and to hell with them.
我的意思是，你不能就这样继续假设，这些都是非人类，让他们见鬼去吧。
And the next time you bring a bottle of wine you put poison in it, you know.
下次你带一瓶酒时，你就在里面下了毒，你知道的。
Really?
真的吗？
Arno Mayer I don't know.
阿诺·梅耶尔 我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's a difficult question.
这是一个很难的问题。
Over time, the indignities of the job piled up.
随着时间的推移，这份工作所带来的侮辱越来越多。
Until a small comment from von Braun set Arno off.
直到冯·布劳恩的一句小评论激怒了阿诺。
And he had already spoken behind my back of me as [GERMAN], a little Jew boy.
他已经在我背后说我是[德国人]，一个犹太小男孩。
So I lost it.
所以我失去了它。
And I stomped out.
我跺脚走了出去。
I was pretty shaken.
我很震惊。
Went back to my barrack and I'm summoned to the commander of the camp.
回到我的营房，我被营长叫去。
Somebody had told him what I had said.
有人告诉他我说过的话。
And finally he said, if you do this again you'll be court-martialed.
最后他说，如果你再这样做，你就会被送上军事法庭。
That was for me one of the turning points, really.
这对我来说确实是转折点之一。
After that, Arno became quietly subversive.
此后，阿诺开始悄然颠覆。
Like when they asked to go shopping, Arno, for his own amusement, took them to a Jewish department store.
就像当他们要求去购物时，阿尔诺为了自己的消遣，带他们去了一家犹太百货商店。
So he came and he said look, I'd like to send packages to our families in Germany, because it's going to be a rough winter.
所以他来了，他说，我想给我们在德国的家人寄包裹，因为这将是一个艰难的冬天。
We'd like to go shopping.
我们想去购物。
I was told, make them happy.
有人告诉我，让他们快乐。
So what the hell.
那又怎么样。
And I began to be amused by this and decided that I was going to take them to the biggest Jewish department store in Washington, DC.
我开始觉得好笑，决定带他们去华盛顿特区最大的犹太百货商店。
So in the car I asked them, what do we start with?
所以在车上我问他们，我们从什么开始？
Well, we want to buy underwear for our wives.
嗯，我们想给我们的妻子买内衣。
In those days, they didn't have bins in which this stuff was in.
那时候，他们没有装这些东西的垃圾箱。
There was a sales lady.
有一位销售女士。
So the four of them, since they were scientists, you had these slide rules.
所以他们四个人，因为他们是科学家，所以你有这些计算尺。
They took them out as the woman asked what size, you see.
当女人问尺寸时，他们把它们拿出来，你瞧。
So the woman came out and she held up a nylon panty.
于是那个女人就出来了，她举起了一条尼龙内裤。
And Wernher von Braun said [GERMAN] but no, made of wool and with long legs.
沃纳·冯·布劳恩 (Wernher von Braun) 说[德语]，但不是，由羊毛制成，腿很长。
In the meantime, people started looking around.
与此同时，人们开始四处张望。
There with these guys in these leather coats, and then there was this little guy next to them in an American uniform.
这些家伙穿着皮大衣，然后他们旁边有一个穿着美国制服的小家伙。
And just as they were telling the lady about the sizes, the military police came and arrested the whole bunch of us.
正当他们告诉这位女士尺寸时，宪兵来了，逮捕了我们所有人。
They were conspicuous, this group of German-looking men making a ruckus.
他们很显眼，这群看起来像德国人的人在吵闹。
Arno told the police he was on a secret military mission.
阿尔诺告诉警方他正在执行一项秘密军事任务。
They verified it and let him go.
他们核实后就放了他。
But Arno says he knows his rebellion was small.
但阿诺说他知道他的叛乱规模很小。
And his restraint still haunts him.
他的克制仍然困扰着他。
I should have told them to go to hell.
我应该告诉他们见鬼去吧。
But I didn't do it.
但我没有这么做。
I was a coward.
我是个胆小鬼。
I mean, I only exploded once.
我的意思是，我只爆炸过一次。
I could have exploded many other times.
我本来可能会爆炸很多次。
Do you wish you had?
你希望有吗？
Arno Mayer Yeah, you're god damn right, god damn right, as I look back.
阿诺·梅耶尔 是的，当我回头看时，你说得太对了，太对了。
Wernher von Braun stayed in the United States and became something of an American hero.
沃纳·冯·布劳恩留在了美国，成为了美国英雄。
He helped us get to the moon.
他帮助我们登上了月球。
He was on the cover of Time.
他登上了《时代》杂志的封面。
He became buddies with JFK.
他与肯尼迪成为好友。
And PO Box 1142 closed down.
1142号邮政信箱也被关闭。
Its buildings were bulldozed.
它的建筑物被推平了。
The files were burned.
文件被烧毁了。
And the men who worked there went on to become lawyers, a CIA agent, an ambassador, head of the Culinary Institute of America, conductor of the Chicago Chamber Orchestra, the richest man in America in the '80s, John Kluge.
在那里工作的人后来成为律师、中央情报局特工、大使、美国烹饪学院院长、芝加哥室内乐团指挥、80 年代美国首富约翰·克鲁格。
Arno became a history professor at Princeton.
阿尔诺成为普林斯顿大学的历史学教授。
And the guy who lost it and pissed on the Nazi started his own textile business.
那个失去了它并对纳粹感到愤怒的人开始了自己的纺织生意。
And all these men whose job it had been to extract secrets now carried their own.
所有这些原本以窃取秘密为己任的人现在都承担起了自己的责任。
Most never said a word to their wives or kids about the work they had done, about the intimate war they had fought with the Germans in a park in Virginia.
大多数人从未对他们的妻子或孩子说过他们所做的工作，以及他们在弗吉尼亚州的一个公园里与德国人进行的亲密战争。
Karen Duffin is one of the producers of our program.
凯伦·达芬 (Karen Duffin) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
[MUSIC - "WERNHER VON BRAUN" BY TOM LEHRER]
[音乐 - 汤姆·莱勒的《沃纳·冯·布劳恩》]
(SINGING) Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun, a man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience.
（唱歌）大家聚集在一起，我为你们歌唱沃纳·冯·布劳恩（Wernher von Braun），他的效忠是出于权宜之计。
Call him a Nazi, he won't even for frown, Nazi, schmatzy, says Wernher von Braun.
沃纳·冯·布劳恩 (Wernher von Braun) 说，称他为纳粹分子，他甚至不会皱眉、纳粹、施马茨。
Don't say that he's hypocritical.
别说他虚伪。
Say rather that he's apolitical.
不如说他不关心政治。
Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down.
一旦火箭升起，谁在乎它们会在哪里坠落。
That's not my department, says Wernher von Braun.
“那不是我的部门，”沃纳·冯·布劳恩说。
Some have harsh words for this man of renown.
有些人对这位名人有严厉的言辞。
But some think our attitude should be one of gratitude.
但有些人认为我们的态度应该是一种感恩的态度。
Like the widows and cripples in old London town, who owe their large pensions to Werner von Braun.
就像伦敦老城区的寡妇和残疾人一样，他们把大笔养老金归功于沃纳·冯·布劳恩。
You too may be a hero once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
一旦你学会倒数到零，你也可能成为英雄。
In German or English I know how to count down.
用德语或英语我知道如何倒数。
And I'm learning Chinese says Wernher von Braun.
沃纳·冯·布劳恩说，我正在学习中文。
Our program is produced today by Susan Burton and David Kestenbaum.
今天我们的节目由苏珊·伯顿和大卫·凯斯滕鲍姆制作。
Our Production staff, Zoe Chace, Dana Chivvas, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Karen Duffin, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Ship, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
我们的制作人员包括 Zoe Chace、Dana Chivvas、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Karen Duffin、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Ship、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike。
Our editor is Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Editing help from Julie Snyder and Elna Baker.
Julie Snyder 和 Elna Baker 提供编辑帮助。
At our website this week we have all kinds of stuff.
本周我们的网站上有各种各样的东西。
The fax that Jack Bailey received assigning him to represent Trastavien Hardy that we've annotated with all kinds of revealing information.
杰克·贝利 (Jack Bailey) 收到的传真指派他代表特拉斯塔维安·哈迪 (Trastavien Hardy)，我们已在该传真上注明了各种泄露信息。
Also pictures and documents about PO Box 1142, including stuff on their interrogation techniques.
还有关于邮政信箱 1142 的图片和文件，包括他们的审讯技巧。
And something called-- no kidding-- the POW Coddling Report.
还有一个叫做——不开玩笑——战俘溺爱报告。
That's at our website, ThisAmericanLife.org where you can also sign up for our weekly newsletter.
您还可以在我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org 上订阅我们的每周时事通讯。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder Mr. Torey Malatia who, ever since we've met, he's had this affectionate nickname I've always liked that he's always liked to call me--
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，自从我们见面以来，他就有了这个亲切的昵称，我一直很喜欢他总是喜欢这样称呼我——
[GERMAN], a little Jew boy.
[德语]，一个犹太小男孩。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。