591: Get Your Money's Worth - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #591 | July 15, 2016 591: Get Your Money's Worth Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 591 集 | 2016 年 7 月 15 日 591：让你的钱物有所值 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Zoe Chace From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言 Zoe Chace 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Zoe Chace.
我是佐伊·切斯。
Ira is away this week.
艾拉本周不在。
He's actually doing a dance performance in Australia.
他实际上正在澳大利亚进行舞蹈表演。
So I'm hosting the show, and it happens that this week's show is about something I am not very good at-- getting your money's worth.
所以我正在主持这个节目，而本周的节目恰好是关于我不太擅长的事情——让你的钱物有所值。
This is something I know about myself.
这是我对自己的了解。
I am bad at saving money.
我不擅长存钱。
I don't haggle.
我不讨价还价。
I never comparison shop.
我从不比较商店。
It's been an especially acute problem for me because I used to report on economics, and so I'm aware that, in economics terms, I am wildly inefficient with my money.
这对我来说是一个特别尖锐的问题，因为我曾经报道过经济学，所以我知道，从经济学的角度来看，我的资金效率非常低。
I waste it.
我浪费了。
I am not good with it, and I've been trying to get better for years.
我对此并不擅长，多年来我一直在努力变得更好。
My friend Jacob Goldstein, on the other hand, is a master.
另一方面，我的朋友雅各布·戈尔茨坦是一位大师。
We worked on the Planet Money podcast together.
我们一起制作了 Planet Money 播客。
Jacob's ability to navigate spending is impressive.
雅各布掌控支出的能力令人印象深刻。
He just always seems like an expert in this area of life.
他总是看起来像是这个生活领域的专家。
We're at a grocery store.
我们在一家杂货店。
I came with Jacob both because I needed food, and I wanted to watch how he shops, how he spends his money.
我和雅各布一起来是因为我需要食物，我想看看他如何购物，如何花钱。
Going through the aisles, Jacob talks like we're on a trading floor.
雅各布穿过过道，说话就像我们在交易大厅一样。
He uses the word commodity for the basic food staples, which is fair.
他用“商品”这个词来指代基本主食，这是公平的。
It's just technical.
这只是技术性的。
He has an idea about a reasonable price for each item based on a running catalog in his head of what those items cost at nearby stores and online-- the market.
他根据脑海中的运行目录了解每件商品的合理价格，了解这些商品在附近商店和网上市场的价格。
Organic baby carrots, $2 a pound.
有机小胡萝卜，2 美元一磅。
Bananas, $0.79 a bunch.
香蕉，0.79 美元一串。
This is a reference price.
这是一个参考价格。
So like commodity cheddar cheese-- $5 a pound is my reference price.
就像商品切达干酪一样——我的参考价格是每磅 5 美元。
For sharp cheese-- that's $8.50 a pound.
对于锋利的奶酪——每磅 8.50 美元。
No.
不。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Jacob Goldstein Not for-- that's not a-- no. It was too expensive.
雅各布·戈尔茨坦：不是——那不是——不。太贵了。
It's just commodity cheddar cheese, which I know I can get for $5 a pound at my grocery store.
这只是商品切达干酪，我知道在杂货店可以以每磅 5 美元的价格买到。
If there's not an obvious way to measure what the best price is, for my friend, it's a little maddening.
如果没有一个明显的方法来衡量最优惠的价格，对我的朋友来说，这有点令人抓狂。
It's an unsolvable puzzle.
这是一个无解的谜题。
Paper towels are complicated.
纸巾很复杂。
They make it hard to compare because they're different size rolls.
它们很难比较，因为它们的尺寸不同。
This says 6 huge equals 15 regular.
这表示 6 个巨型等于 15 个普通。
And then this says 8 giant equals 12 regular.
然后这就是说 8 个巨人等于 12 个普通人。
So clearly it's not the same math?
那么显然这不是同一个数学？
And they don't have any that are regular, so it's really hard to compare.
而且他们没有任何常规的，所以很难比较。
It's like buying mattresses or something.
就像买床垫什么的。
I'm going to buy this coffee purely because it says New Orleans.
我买这款咖啡纯粹是因为它写着“新奥尔良”。
You like chicory?
你喜欢菊苣吗？
I'm going to guess it's going to have like that chicory flavor.
我猜它会有菊苣的味道。
When I'm in a grocery store, I choose the canned tomatoes that look the most authentically Italian.
当我在杂货店时，我会选择看起来最正宗的意大利罐装西红柿。
I pick the olive oil with the fancy name, which, in front of Jacob, I find embarrassing, obviously.
我选择了名字很奇特的橄榄油，这在雅各布面前显然很尴尬。
So regarding coffee, I go like middle.
所以说到咖啡，我喜欢中间的咖啡。
So this is $10 a pound.
所以这是每磅 10 美元。
Expensive coffee is $20 a pound.
咖啡很贵，20美元一磅。
So we go through about a pound of coffee a week, so that's like $500 a year difference.
所以我们每周喝大约一磅咖啡，所以每年的差异大约是 500 美元。
And how often are you annualizing costs?
您多久对成本进行一次年化？
That question is almost mean, he says.
他说，这个问题几乎是刻薄的。
That I did not expect-- that he would think I was being mean.
我没想到——他会认为我很刻薄。
I was impressed.
我印象深刻。
Taking your friend to the grocery store, it's like showering with them.
带你的朋友去杂货店，就像和他们一起洗澡一样。
Both of you get really vulnerable.
你们俩都变得非常脆弱。
Like, he's good at this.
比如说，他很擅长这个。
I'm bad at this.
我不擅长这个。
Why is he embarrassed?
他为什么尴尬？
Oh, I'm not proud at all.
哦，我一点也不骄傲。
Zoe Chace You're not?
佐伊·切斯 你不是吗？
So what?
所以呢？
It's not a moral virtue to get good deals.
获得好交易并不是一种道德美德。
It seems like it's smarter.
看起来好像更聪明了。
Jacob Goldstein I think so.
雅各布·戈德斯坦 我想是的。
There's an interesting thing, I think, here.
我认为这里有一件有趣的事情。
I think people conflate getting good deals with like being moral or virtuous-- virtuous, right, like thrift or whatever.
我认为人们把达成良好的交易与道德或美德混为一谈——有美德，正确，比如节俭或其他什么。
And I think that's wrong.
我认为这是错误的。
I don't think it is virtuous to get a better deal on cashews.
我不认为以更好的价格购买腰果是有好处的。
When you put it like that, I see.
当你这样说时，我明白了。
I don't know, but I--
我不知道，但我——
I really don't, unless like every dollar I'm not spending on cashews I'm sending to the poor, which I'm not.
我真的不这样做，除非我没有花在腰果上的每一块钱都送给穷人，而我不是。
I give some amount of money to charity, but it's not like the more I save, the more I'm giving to charity.
我给慈善机构捐了一些钱，但这并不是说我存的越多，我捐给慈善机构的就越多。
But there's something about it that just-- it does seem like something to aspire to.
但它似乎确实是值得追求的东西。
I don't think-- I mean, look, this doesn't really matter.
我不认为——我的意思是，听着，这并不重要。
This is just a thing that I do.
这只是我做的一件事。
It's not a choice, he's saying.
他说，这不是一个选择。
It's how he was brought up.
他就是这样长大的。
So at this point, it's just him.
所以这个时候，就只有他了。
It's not just grocery shopping.
这不仅仅是杂货店购物。
Jacob does this in all areas of his life.
雅各布在他生活的各个方面都这样做。
It can be paralyzing.
它可能会让人瘫痪。
He feels some shame that he's like this.
他为自己这样子感到有些羞耻。
And I feel shame that I am not like this.
我感到羞愧，因为我不是这样的。
Money is a practical thing.
钱是很实际的东西。
How much do I have?
我有多少？
What do I need?
我需要什么？
Can I afford it?
我买得起吗？
But getting your money's worth?
但你的钱花得值吗？
That is much more personal because it's emotional.
这更加个人化，因为它是情感化的。
That's when you ask yourself, what's the most important thing to me?
那是当你问自己，对我来说最重要的事情是什么？
What might I regret?
我可能会后悔什么？
What should I sacrifice?
我应该牺牲什么？
We have three stories about this today-- people trying to figure out if they're getting their money's worth, trying to figure out if they're getting one over on the world, or if the world is getting one over on them.
今天我们有关于这个的三个故事——人们试图弄清楚他们的钱是否值得，试图弄清楚他们是否得到了世界的回报，或者世界是否得到了他们的回报。
First up, a man tries to get his money's worth out of the presidential election.
首先，一个人试图从总统选举中得到他的钱的价值。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
OK, so for the past six months, I've been covering the presidential election.
好的，在过去的六个月里，我一直在报道总统选举。
And I've been particularly interested in this group of people who are trying to get the biggest bang for their buck out of this election season-- Republican donors, people who are in a rare position to put enormous sums into campaigns and watch what the money can do.
我对这群人特别感兴趣，他们试图在这个选举季中获得最大的回报——共和党捐助者，他们处于罕见的地位，可以在竞选活动中投入巨额资金，并观察这些钱能发挥什么作用。
People like this.
人们喜欢这样。
So are you a billionaire?
那么你是亿万富翁吗？
Doug Deason No, I'm not.
道格·迪森 不，我不是。
My father is.
我父亲是。
This is Doug Deason.
这是道格·迪森。
He's a millionaire.
他是个百万富翁。
His dad, Darwin Deason, is the billionaire.
他的父亲达尔文·迪森是亿万富翁。
Years ago, the dad started a computer services company and made a ton of money in the 20 years since, rolling up and selling off companies.
几年前，父亲创办了一家计算机服务公司，并在 20 年内通过收购和出售公司赚了很多钱。
Just money making money.
就是钱生钱。
Five years ago, he sold it to Xerox.
五年前，他将其卖给了施乐公司。
Now Doug, the son, manages their money and their political strategy.
现在，儿子道格管理着他们的资金和政治策略。
Doug is the one in charge of translating money into political power.
道格是负责将金钱转化为政治权力的人。
He doesn't think of himself as a donor, exactly.
确切地说，他并不认为自己是捐赠者。
There's much more thought and strategy than just throwing money at a campaign.
除了在竞选活动中投入资金之外，还有更多的想法和策略。
He's more like an investor.
他更像是一个投资者。
He's looking around for the best place to put their money-- the best Republican place.
他正在四处寻找最好的投入资金的地方——最好的共和党地方。
Doug is a dedicated Republican, the kind who does not miss an opportunity to insult Democrats in any context.
道格是一位忠诚的共和党人，在任何情况下都不放过侮辱民主党人的机会。
Take our first conversation.
以我们的第一次谈话为例。
We were talking about his daily routine.
我们正在谈论他的日常生活。
He's 54.
他54岁了。
He's trim.
他很苗条。
He sees his trainer a few times a week.
他每周见教练几次。
He just had a protein shake for breakfast, same as every morning.
他早餐只喝了一杯蛋白质奶昔，就像每天早上一样。
Every morning?
每天早上？
Doug Deason Every morning.
道格·迪森 每天早上。
I feel like this is like a common thread.
我觉得这就像一条共同的线索。
Some of the other donors I talked to, they're always running off to meet with their trainer or whatever and eating almond milk and blueberries for breakfast.
我采访过的其他一些捐赠者，他们总是跑去见他们的教练或其他什么人，并吃杏仁奶和蓝莓作为早餐。
But you're talking about Republicans, who are winners and know how to run their life, not Democrats, who are losers and don't know how to run their life and want the government to give them a food pyramid to tell them how to eat, right?
但你谈论的是共和党人，他们是胜利者，知道如何经营自己的生活，而不是民主党人，他们是失败者，不知道如何经营自己的生活，希望政府给他们一个食物金字塔来告诉他们如何吃，对吧？
How did you know?
你怎么知道的？
I started talking to Doug at the beginning of the primaries, back in February.
我在二月份初选之初就开始与道格交谈。
What's happening?
发生什么事了？
Zoe Chace Not much.
佐伊·切斯 不多。
What's happening with you?
你怎么了？
He and his dad budgeted $2 million for this election cycle.
他和他的父亲为本次选举周期预算了 200 万美元。
And over the last five months, over many phone calls and visits, I watched Doug try to figure out how to make the most of that money in one of the most confusing elections of his political life.
在过去的五个月里，通过多次电话和拜访，我看到道格试图弄清楚如何在他政治生涯中最令人困惑的选举之一中充分利用这笔钱。
His usual tricks failed, not because he was doing it wrong, but because the Republican donor playbook was being rewritten.
他惯用的伎俩失败了，不是因为他做错了，而是因为共和党的捐助剧本正在被改写。
For the Democrats, money and politics went pretty much as expected during the primaries.
对于民主党来说，初选期间金钱和政治的进展几乎符合预期。
It wasn't like that at all for the Republicans.
对于共和党来说，情况完全不是这样。
Here's the story of how it went down from the money's perspective.
这是从金钱角度来看它是如何下降的故事。
To set the scene, Doug lives in one of the Republican capitals of the world, Dallas, Texas.
为了设置场景，道格住在世界共和党首都之一——德克萨斯州达拉斯。
He walks past former presidents while chatting on his cell phone.
他一边用手机聊天，一边走过几位前总统。
Literally, the reason I was hanging up so quick was President Bush was coming towards me as I was walking out of the garage in the office building.
从字面上看，我之所以这么快挂断电话，是因为当我走出办公楼的车库时，布什总统向我走来。
Dallas is one of the best places in the world to raise Republican dollars.
达拉斯是世界上筹集共和党资金的最佳地点之一。
Like Doug says, hands down nothing-- nothing-- compares to Dallas.
正如道格所说，毫无疑问，没有任何东西可以与达拉斯相比。
This election year started like usual.
今年的选举年像往常一样开始。
Every election cycle, the major candidates come to Dallas in search of big money and support from guys like Doug.
每个选举周期，主要候选人都会来到达拉斯寻求大笔资金和道格等人的支持。
Think of it like a cotillion ball.
把它想象成一个舞会。
You've got the big Texas donors on one side of the room.
德克萨斯州的大捐助者就在房间的一侧。
On the other side, the candidates, trying to find dance partners.
另一边，候选人们正在努力寻找舞伴。
Doug and his dad started out as Rick Perry supporters-- he'd been their governor-- but he dropped out.
道格和他的父亲一开始是里克·佩里的支持者——他曾是他们的州长——但他退出了。
They started taking other meetings.
他们开始参加其他会议。
Ben Carson.
本·卡森.
Super guy, very interesting.
超级大佬，很有趣。
Brilliant.
杰出的。
She'd be a great vice president.
她会成为一名出色的副总统。
So no. Jeb Bush.
所以不。杰布·布什。
Doug Deason We went out, got in the car, and somebody said, well, that was thoroughly unimpressive.
道格·迪森（Doug Deason） 我们出去，上了车，有人说，好吧，那根本不令人印象深刻。
Some of the meetings got testy.
有些会议变得很暴躁。
Doug fought with Marco Rubio over sugar subsidies.
道格与马可·鲁比奥就糖补贴问题发生争执。
In a meeting with Ohio Governor John Kasich, Doug says he got in the governor's face because he thought Kasich implied that if they donated to his campaign, they'd get access to him when he became president.
在与俄亥俄州州长约翰·卡西奇的会面中，道格说，他当面批评了州长，因为他认为卡西奇暗示，如果他们向他的竞选活动捐款，当他成为总统时，他们就可以接触到他。
We don't care if you ever call us, or we ever see you, or you ever invite us to the White House.
我们不在乎你是否给我们打电话，或者我们是否见过你，或者你是否邀请我们去白宫。
I will never spend the night in the Lincoln Bedroom.
我永远不会在林肯卧室过夜。
Neither will Dad.
爸爸也不会。
And we could give a [BLEEP] if we ever do.
如果我们这样做的话，我们可以发出[BLEEP]。
That's not the point.
这不是重点。
For the most part, though, business as usual.
不过，在大多数情况下，一切照常进行。
Some candidates got money and kept going.
一些候选人得到了钱并继续前进。
Some candidates flamed out.
一些候选人熄火了。
All this is happening in close consultation with people like Doug.
所有这一切都是在与像道格这样的人密切协商后发生的。
One notable exception-- Donald Trump.
一个值得注意的例外是唐纳德·特朗普。
While Doug was meeting with candidates, Trump was making a big show of not being one of those puppets-- his word-- who depended on other rich people's money.
当道格与候选人会面时，特朗普正在大张旗鼓地表明自己不是那些依赖其他富人金钱的傀儡——他是这么说的。
And those PACs control the candidates, OK?
那些政治行动委员会控制着候选人，好吗？
They totally control.
他们完全控制。
Carson is controlled by his PAC.
卡森由他的政治行动委员会控制。
Bush is controlled by his PAC.
布什由他的政治行动委员会控制。
Rubio is controlled by his PAC, and he needs a lot of water on top of everything else.
卢比奥由他的政治行动委员会控制，除了其他一切之外，他还需要大量的水。
Did you ever see a guy-- did you ever see a guy sweat like Rubio?
你见过一个人——你见过一个像卢比奥一样流汗的人吗？
I've never seen anything like it.
我从来没有见过这样的事情。
Trump was out there conspicuously ignoring the donors.
特朗普明显无视捐助者。
Doug was ignoring Trump, too.
道格也无视特朗普。
If you fast-forward through the debates, you can get through pretty fast.
如果你快进辩论，你就能很快通过。
And when Trump's talking, I'll fast-forward through most of that because he can talk all day, but you don't really learn anything.
当特朗普讲话时，我会快进大部分内容，因为他可以讲一整天，但你实际上学不到任何东西。
This situation can't stand.
这种情况不能忍受。
No Republican nominee in recent history has made it to the presidency without Texas money, without the help of people like Doug.
近代历史上，没有一位共和党候选人在没有德克萨斯州资金、没有像道格这样的人的帮助下进入总统职位。
And Trump is going to be the nominee.
特朗普将成为提名人。
But in March 2016, deep into the primaries, they are still paying no attention to each other.
但到了2016年3月，初选已经深入，他们仍然互不关注。
April 2016, Doug and his dad have done their due diligence.
2016 年 4 月，道格和他的父亲完成了尽职调查。
They took all the meetings.
他们参加了所有的会议。
They have their guy, Ted Cruz.
他们有他们的人，特德·克鲁兹。
They put in a couple hundred thousand dollars into a super PAC for him, and Doug has put in some time.
他们为他投入了数十万美元成立超级政治行动委员会，道格也投入了一些时间。
He's calling other donors as candidates drop out, trying to win them to Cruz.
当候选人退出时，他正在打电话给其他捐助者，试图将他们赢得克鲁兹的支持。
Three days before the all-important Indiana primary, Doug helps pull off a big endorsement.
距离至关重要的印第安纳州初选还有三天，道格帮助获得了一项重大支持。
He gets Indiana Governor Mike Pence to back Cruz.
他让印第安纳州州长迈克·彭斯支持克鲁兹。
I talked to him right as it was happening.
我在事情发生时就与他交谈。
Oh, here they're announcing it on Fox right now.
哦，他们现在正在福克斯上宣布这一消息。
I think he's about to do his-- looks like he's about to do his-- is he about to do it?
我认为他即将做他的——看起来他即将做他的——他即将做吗？
We'll see.
我们拭目以待。
Yep.
是的。
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
是的，是的，是的，是的，是的。
He's just about to announce.
他正要宣布。
Yeah, we're holding a fundraiser for him.
是的，我们正在为他举办筹款活动。
Mike and I are pretty good friends and we're doing a big fundraiser for him here in Dallas on May 31.
迈克和我是非常好的朋友，我们将于 5 月 31 日在达拉斯为他举办一场大型筹款活动。
And-- oh, look.
还有——哦，看。
There's Ted and Carly with him.
特德和卡莉和他在一起。
Pretty cool.
很酷。
Oh, and that [BLEEP]-off Hannity.
哦，还有汉尼蒂[BLEEP]。
Sean Hannity.
肖恩·汉尼蒂.
What a lame-- gah.
真是蹩脚——啊啊。
I can't stand him.
我受不了他。
Doug's guy endorses Cruz.
道格的人支持克鲁兹。
Primary night arrives, and Ted Cruz drops out of the race.
初选之夜到来，特德·克鲁兹退出竞选。
May 2016, there's one man standing, and it's Donald Trump, the one guy Doug hasn't vetted.
2016 年 5 月，站着一个人，那就是唐纳德·特朗普，道格还没有审查过他。
Mike Pence has reappeared recently as Trump's vice presidential pick.
迈克·彭斯最近作为特朗普的副总统人选重新出现。
Doug's money seems to have done nothing.
道格的钱似乎没有起到任何作用。
In fact, after $645 million dollars spent by these candidates and their super PACs over the course of the primary race, the money did not pick the candidate.
事实上，这些候选人及其超级政治行动委员会在初选过程中花费了 6.45 亿美元，但这些钱并没有选择候选人。
It was a brand-new, unwritten chapter.
这是一个全新的、不成文的章节。
Beginning of June, Trump's got $1.3 million in cash.
6月初，特朗普获得了130万美元现金。
That's nothing in this world.
这在这个世界上并不算什么。
Hillary Clinton's campaign has $43 million in the bank.
希拉里·克林顿竞选团队的银行存款为 4300 万美元。
GOP donors are holding back, unsure if Trump even needs the money.
共和党捐助者犹豫不决，不确定特朗普是否需要这笔钱。
Is he going to just keep funding his own campaign?
他会继续资助自己的竞选活动吗？
Is he going to start raising money from other rich people?
他会开始向其他富人筹集资金吗？
Once one jumps in with a lot of money, more jump in.
一旦有人带着一大笔钱加入进来，更多的人就会加入进来。
Millions beget millions.
数百万人生出数百万人。
In short, Trump needs Doug now.
简而言之，特朗普现在需要道格。
Am I excited about Trump?
我对特朗普感到兴奋吗？
No, I'm not.
不，我不是。
You might be able to tell from the tone of my voice I'm not enthusiastic about Trump.
你也许可以从我的语气中看出我对特朗普不感兴趣。
I'm disappointed that Governor Perry's not going to be our next president of the United States.
我对佩里州长不会成为下一任美国总统感到失望。
I'm disappointed that Ted Cruz is not going to be our next president of the United States.
我对特德·克鲁兹不会成为下一任美国总统感到失望。
You know, I think Jeb would have made a fine president.
你知道，我认为杰布会成为一名优秀的总统。
He didn't have a chance of getting there, obviously.
显然，他没有机会到达那里。
But I think that we have some really good options.
但我认为我们有一些非常好的选择。
I don't know what we're going to get with Trump.
我不知道我们会从特朗普那里得到什么。
The moneyed Republicans start choosing sides, just like the Republican voters did after Trump won the primary-- Yes, Trump or Never Trump.
有钱的共和党人开始选择立场，就像特朗普赢得初选后共和党选民所做的那样——是的，特朗普或从不特朗普。
Doug has to figure out what to do next with his money.
道格必须弄清楚下一步该用他的钱做什么。
One of the most influential Republican donors in the country comes out in April and says he can't do it-- Charles Koch.
美国最有影响力的共和党捐助者之一查尔斯·科赫 (Charles Koch) 在四月份出面表示他做不到。
He can't stand Trump.
他受不了特朗普。
Asked about Trump's idea to register Muslims, Koch said, "That's monstrous.
当被问及特朗普对穆斯林进行登记的想法时，科赫说：“这太可怕了。
This isn't Nazi Germany." He said that Trump's behavior is the opposite of what the Koch network stands for.
这不是纳粹德国。”他表示，特朗普的行为与科赫网络所主张的相反。
This complicates Doug's decision about whether to invest in Trump because Doug thinks of Charles Koch as his mentor, his guru, almost.
这使得道格关于是否投资特朗普的决定变得复杂，因为道格认为查尔斯·科赫几乎是他的导师，他的大师。
Charles Koch has certainly been one of the most influential people in my life.
查尔斯·科赫无疑是我一生中最有影响力的人之一。
I admire everything that he does and what he stands for.
我钦佩他所做的一切和他所代表的一切。
You know, I say that I often get accused of drinking the Charles Koch Kool-Aid.
你知道，我说过我经常被指责喝查尔斯·科赫酷爱饮料。
And I said, as a matter of fact, I have it for breakfast instead of orange juice.
我说，事实上，我早餐吃它而不是橙汁。
I drink it at lunch instead of iced tea.
我午餐时喝它而不是冰茶。
And I have it with vodka at night.
晚上我会和伏特加一起喝。
It's pretty nice.
非常漂亮。
You might already know about the Koch brothers.
您可能已经了解科赫兄弟。
David and Charles are the famous ones.
大卫和查尔斯是著名的。
There's been a lot of reporting about them.
关于他们的报道有很多。
The main agenda of the Kochs is this-- smaller government.
科赫家族的主要议程是——缩小政府规模。
That means no EPA, no Department of Education, little regulation, low taxes, cut back on Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, basically get rid of all the programs that have been put in place since LBJ's War on Poverty, no corporate subsidies.
这意味着没有环保局，没有教育部，监管很少，税收低，医疗保险、医疗补助和社会保障削减，基本上取消自林登·约翰逊反贫困战争以来实施的所有计划，没有企业补贴。
During those days of back-to-back candidate interviews with Carson, Bush, Rubio, Fiorina, Doug and his dad asked everyone the same questions.
在与卡森、布什、卢比奥、菲奥莉娜连续面试候选人的那些日子里，道格和他的父亲问了每个人同样的问题。
They had this checklist based on the Koch way of thinking.
他们根据科赫的思维方式制定了这份清单。
What did the candidate intend to do about corporate subsidies, any kind of subsidies, getting power back to the states?
这位候选人打算对企业补贴（任何形式的补贴）采取什么措施，将权力重新归还给各州？
Doug went to his first Koch seminar in 2011, and that's where he got religion.
道格于 2011 年参加了他的第一次科赫研讨会，这就是他获得宗教信仰的地方。
Before Charles Koch came into his life, Doug and his dad gave money locally, and yeah, to presidential candidates, but not to PACs.
在查尔斯·科赫进入他的生活之前，道格和他的父亲在当地捐钱，是的，捐给总统候选人，但不捐给政治行动委员会。
Instead, he and his dad would meet a candidate.
相反，他和他的父亲会见一位候选人。
If they seemed nice and conservative, they'd throw money at the candidate.
如果他们看起来友善且保守，他们就会向候选人砸钱。
It was all about the people.
这一切都是为了人民。
Now he talks about it like this.
现在他这样谈论这件事。
So this is a battle, not a war.
所以这是一场战斗，而不是战争。
So short term, we give directly to the candidates' campaigns.
因此，短期内，我们直接向候选人的竞选活动提供资金。
The candidates are just there to fight the battle.
候选人只是来打仗的。
It's not only about the candidates anymore.
这不再仅仅与候选人有关。
The candidates are the soldiers fighting to put in place the big ideas.
候选人是为实现伟大想法而奋斗的士兵。
The big ideas come from the think tanks.
伟大的想法来自智囊团。
And that's what the war is over, the big ideas.
战争就这样结束了，伟大的想法。
And then the war is influencing legislation, influencing the way things are taught, history is taught, economics is taught at universities-- getting a conservative footprint on liberal universities.
然后战争正在影响立法，影响大学教授事物、教授历史、经济学的方式——在自由派大学中留下了保守的足迹。
So that's the think tanks.
这就是智库。
Now that's where most of the Deason money goes-- to the war, to their favorite think tank, the Texas Public Policy Foundation and also to Freedom Partners, the umbrella organization run by the Koch brothers.
现在，这就是迪森的大部分资金的去向——用于战争、他们最喜欢的智库德克萨斯公共政策基金会，以及由科赫兄弟经营的伞式组织自由合作伙伴。
The one bipartisan issue the Kochs and Doug support is criminal justice reform, especially regarding sentencing.
科赫和道格支持的一个两党问题是刑事司法改革，特别是在量刑方面。
And Doug is really into this one.
道格真的很喜欢这个。
This was high on the list of questions he asked candidates.
这是他向候选人提出的问题清单中的首要问题。
He recently wrote an op-ed about how his own arrest when he was young could have ruined his chances for success if he'd been charged with a felony.
他最近写了一篇专栏文章，讲述了如果他被指控犯有重罪，他年轻时被捕可能会毁掉他成功的机会。
It was a big spread in the New York Times , even though he claims the paper bursts into flames whenever he touches it.
这件事在《纽约时报》上引起了广泛关注，尽管他声称只要他一碰报纸就会起火。
Also, it's an economic issue.
另外，这也是一个经济问题。
Locking up so many people costs Texas a lot of money.
关押这么多人让德克萨斯州损失了很多钱。
The Deasons and the Kochs funded a new criminal justice research center in Dallas.
迪森夫妇和科赫夫妇在达拉斯资助了一个新的刑事司法研究中心。
Doug was hugely influential in getting a new law passed in Texas last year to seal certain criminal records.
去年，道格在德克萨斯州通过一项封存某些犯罪记录的新法律方面发挥了巨大的影响力。
So that's how he thinks of his political spending now, like his money is part of this long-term, change-the-world strategy.
这就是他现在对政治支出的看法，就像他的钱是这个改变世界的长期战略的一部分一样。
His money has meaning.
他的钱有意义。
That checklist of priorities-- small government, criminal justice reform, ending government subsidies-- Trump hasn't said anything about those things.
优先事项清单——小政府、刑事司法改革、终止政府补贴——特朗普没有对这些事情发表任何言论。
At least, nothing that seems like it would appeal to Doug and his dad.
至少，看起来没有什么能吸引道格和他的父亲。
I watched as he came in.
我看着他进来。
How did I know he was coming?
我怎么知道他要来？
Because there were a bunch of helicopters, and they were hovering over his entourage.
因为有很多直升机，在他的随从上空盘旋。
Of course, Trump does show up in Dallas in the middle of June.
当然，特朗普确实会在六月中旬出现在达拉斯。
He's got no money and a brand new deal with the RNC, and they got him to suck up his pride and realize that what serious candidates do is they go ask for money.
他没有钱，也没有与共和党全国委员会达成一项全新的协议，他们让他放下自尊，意识到认真的候选人所做的就是去要钱。
Trump Force One is landing in Love Field.
特朗普一号部队即将登陆爱田。
You could watch it all the way from Love Field, all the way through Highland Park, right past down here, across that little bridge down there.
你可以从爱田一路观看，穿过高地公园，一直经过这里，穿过那座小桥。
And then there were news helicopters just following along.
然后还有新闻直升机紧随其后。
Trump's got three meetings scheduled with rich guys, including Doug and his dad.
特朗普安排了与富人的三次会面，其中包括道格和他的父亲。
It's set for Friday, June 17.
时间定在 6 月 17 日星期五。
I talked to Doug the night before.
前一天晚上我和道格谈过。
So we're not going to make a commitment to him until we meet him.
因此，在见到他之前，我们不会向他做出承诺。
So Dad and his wife Katerina and I are headed over in the morning to his hotel to spend 30 minutes with him in private, just ask him some questions.
所以，爸爸和他的妻子卡特琳娜和我早上会前往他的酒店，与他私下呆 30 分钟，只问他一些问题。
Where do you stand on criminal justice reform, corporate cronyism, entitlement programs, Social Security, that kind of thing-- you know, food stamps, which is part of the farm subsidies, for some stupid reason.
你对刑事司法改革、公司任人唯亲、福利计划、社会保障之类的事情持何立场——你知道，食品券是农业补贴的一部分，出于某种愚蠢的原因。
How do you feel about farm subsidies?
您对农业补贴有何看法？
Zoe Chace What is it actually going to be like?
Zoe Chace 它实际上会是什么样子？
Are you going to sit down with him in a room and just say to him, how do you feel about corporate subsidies?
你是否打算和他坐在一个房间里，直接对他说，你对企业补贴有何看法？
Just like that?
就这样吗？
Right.
正确的。
Zoe Chace Here are the options.
佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）以下是选项。
He can donate to the campaign itself, up to $5,400.
他可以为该活动本身捐款，最高可达 5,400 美元。
He'll probably do at least that much, but he can do way more.
他可能至少会做这么多，但他可以做更多。
He can donate to the Trump Victory Fund, which was set up by the RNC to raise money for Trump in some congressional races.
他可以向特朗普胜利基金捐款，该基金是共和党全国委员会为了在一些国会竞选中为特朗普筹集资金而设立的。
The cap is for $450,000.
上限为 450,000 美元。
And he can donate as much as he likes, of course, to a super PAC that's supporting Trump.
当然，他可以向支持特朗普的超级政治行动委员会捐款，想捐多少就捐多少。
What about Charles Koch?
查尔斯·科赫呢？
Have you talked to him about meeting with Trump?
你跟他谈过与特朗普会面的事吗？
Dad-- we will.
爸爸——我们会的。
We probably will.
我们可能会的。
Dad voiced his frustration over the Charles interview a few Sundays ago.
几周前，爸爸对查尔斯的采访表达了他的沮丧。
And his statement that he couldn't support Trump-- and he kind of insinuated that if Hillary softened her rhetoric and did certain things, he might even consider supporting and/or voting for her.
他声明自己不能支持特朗普——他有点暗示，如果希拉里软化她的言辞并做某些事情，他甚至可能会考虑支持和/或投票给她。
And obviously, Dad didn't take that very well.
显然，爸爸并没有很好地接受这一点。
And so he let the Koch team know.
所以他让科赫团队知道了。
So Charles sent him a very detailed letter.
于是查尔斯给他寄了一封非常详细的信。
Before his involvement with the Kochs, Doug was just a rich Republican.
在加入科赫家族之前，道格只是一位富有的共和党人。
Post-Koch, he's a warrior, and that feels good.
后科赫时代，他是一名战士，这感觉很好。
The Kochs have provided a map for political donors and a community for billionaires.
科赫兄弟为政治捐助者提供了一张地图，为亿万富翁提供了一个社区。
It's called the Koch network.
这就是所谓的科赫网络。
The idea is they can act as one unit, leveraging hundreds of millions of dollars toward their goals.
他们的想法是，他们可以作为一个整体，利用数亿美元实现他们的目标。
Doug loves being part of that.
道格喜欢参与其中。
He believes in it.
他相信这一点。
And now Trump is rattling the unity of the Koch network.
现在特朗普正在破坏科赫网络的团结。
This letter from Charles to Doug's dad confirms that.
查尔斯写给道格父亲的这封信证实了这一点。
So Dad got it.
于是爸爸就明白了。
He read it.
他读了它。
Called me.
打电话给我。
They cc'ed me.
他们抄送给我。
He said, what do you think I should do?
他说，你觉得我该怎么办？
I said, I don't know.
我说，我不知道。
Let's meet Trump first and see how passionate we are about him, what we think about him.
让我们先来认识一下特朗普，看看我们对他有多热情，对他有什么看法。
Maybe we ask Charles to meet with him, at least give him a chance.
也许我们请查尔斯见见他，至少给他一个机会。
Does it feel weird, like your two dads are fighting?
是不是感觉很奇怪，就像你的两个爸爸在吵架？
Well, no. I mean, Charles is not my dad.
嗯，不。我的意思是，查尔斯不是我爸爸。
He's obviously hugely influential on me and what I focus on in life and my political thinking.
显然，他对我以及我的生活关注点和政治思想有着巨大的影响。
I know your analysis, but I mean, does it feel bad to have your dad and Charles Koch disagree?
我知道你的分析，但我的意思是，你父亲和查尔斯·科赫不同意会让你感觉很糟糕吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it does.
是的，确实如此。
Zoe Chace Why?
佐伊·切斯 为什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
We've always been-- Dad and I are 99.9% of the time on the same page, and I kind of see where Charles is coming from.
我们一直——爸爸和我 99.9% 的时间都意见一致，我有点明白查尔斯的想法。
The day Doug met with Trump, I meet up with him in his office right after.
道格会见特朗普的那天，我立即在他的办公室与他会面。
So what happened?
那么发生了什么？
Doug Deason We just went over and-- went over to the Park Cities Hilton.
道格·迪森（Doug Deason） 我们刚刚去了帕克城希尔顿酒店。
And we met with Donald Trump.
我们会见了唐纳德·特朗普。
So to start from the beginning, Trump kept them waiting.
所以从一开始，特朗普就让他们等待。
They're sitting in the hotel lobby.
他们坐在酒店大堂。
At one point, Doug checks in with his dad.
有一次，道格去拜访了他的父亲。
I go, what are you going to talk to him about?
我去，你要跟他谈什么？
He said, oh, I don't know, whatever pops up.
他说，哦，我不知道，无论发生什么。
He goes, I'm kind of counting on you.
他走了，我有点指望你了。
I said, OK.
我说，好吧。
Well, here's-- and I had a piece of paper, read through it.
嗯，这是——我有一张纸，请通读它。
He said, perfect.
他说，完美。
Where's that piece of paper?
那张纸在哪里？
Doug Deason Right here in front of me.
道格·迪森就在我面前。
Can I see it?
我可以看看吗？
"Admit you are not perfect, not without sin, but who isn't?
“承认你并不完美，也不是没有罪，但谁不是呢？
Stop racial remarks.
停止种族言论。
OK, it's criminal justice reform, corporate cronyism, federalism.
好吧，这就是刑事司法改革、企业任人唯亲、联邦制。
How does he feel about big government and states and stuff?"
他对大政府、大州之类的事情有何看法？”
Did you ask him about that?
你问过他这件事吗？
Doug Deason No. Didn't get a chance.
道格·迪森（Doug Deason）：没有。没有机会。
He's just such a nice guy.
他真是个好人。
He's so pleasant and so personable in person.
他本人非常令人愉快且风度翩翩。
Did you ask any of your questions about your issues?
您是否就您的问题提出过任何问题？
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
I did some.
我做了一些。
I'd kind of research some online a little bit, and I felt pretty good about them.
我在网上做了一些研究，我对它们感觉很好。
But I didn't expect Dad to talk as much as he did.
但没想到爸爸竟然有这么多话。
What did he say?
他说什么？
Doug Deason The reason he did is because Trump just engaged him, asked him about Dad's business, how did he make his money.
道格·迪森（Doug Deason）这样做的原因是因为特朗普刚刚与他接触，向他询问了爸爸的生意，他是如何赚钱的。
And they talked about-- he kept complimenting down on me that he's got-- I know how great it is to be able to turn something over to your kids and let them run it and let them do it, which obviously is what I do.
他们谈到——他一直称赞我他的能力——我知道能够把一些东西交给你的孩子，让他们运行并让他们去做是多么伟大，这显然就是我所做的。
So it was nice to be complimented, right?
所以很高兴受到称赞，对吧？
By Trump or by your dad?
特朗普还是你爸爸？
Doug Deason By anybody.
道格·迪森（Doug Deason） 任何人都可以。
They were both saying that, so that was really nice.
他们俩都这么说，所以这真的很好。
They didn't discuss subsidies or criminal justice reform or any of the other issues because something else was at work on Doug in that room.
他们没有讨论补贴或刑事司法改革或任何其他问题，因为那个房间里的道格正在忙着其他事情。
Something more visceral than long-term strategizing about conservative ideas.
比针对保守思想制定长期战略更发自内心的东西。
From the sounds of it, Trump just charmed him.
听上去，特朗普只是迷住了他。
And suddenly it's morning in Dallas.
达拉斯的早晨一下子就到了。
You know, he said many times, things are just great.
你知道，他多次说过，一切都很棒。
Things are really great.
事情真的很棒。
Things are really great.
事情真的很棒。
Things are really going good.
事情真的进展顺利。
If there was a pause in the discussion, it would come out with that.
如果讨论暂停的话，结果就会出来。
Things are really good.
东西真的很好。
And you walked out of that meeting and what did you and your dad say to each other?
会议结束后，你和你父亲对彼此说了些什么？
Just, hey, that went really well.
只是，嘿，进展非常顺利。
He's a really nice guy, and seems to think a lot like we do.
他是一个非常好的人，而且似乎和我们想得很多。
He believes that a businessman-- at the end of the day, a country is a business.
他相信，一个商人——归根结底，一个国家就是一个企业。
What made you think he believes that?
是什么让你认为他相信这一点？
You didn't ask him about that stuff.
你没有问过他那些事。
No, but he said it.
不，但他说了。
I mean, he just talked about, hey, you guys are businessmen.
我的意思是，他刚刚谈到，嘿，你们是商人。
You understand how a business works.
您了解企业如何运作。
Really, that's how a country works.
确实，这就是一个国家的运作方式。
And this country needs to be run like a business.
这个国家需要像企业一样运作。
We need to cut costs and support people where they need to be supported and cut fat out and bloat.
我们需要削减成本并为需要支持的人们提供支持，并减少肥胖和臃肿。
I'm a businessman.
我是商人。
I've run businesses.
我经营过企业。
That's what I intend to do.
这就是我打算做的。
And that's why we voted for Ross Perot twice.
这就是我们两次投票给罗斯·佩罗的原因。
Threw away our vote there.
在那里放弃了我们的投票。
There we are.
我们到了。
So that's Dad, Trump, and me.
这就是爸爸、特朗普和我。
Three businessmen-- Doug, Dad, Trump-- suits and ties, thumbs up.
三个商人——道格、爸爸、特朗普——西装笔挺，竖起大拇指。
There you go.
就这样吧。
That's the decision.
这就是决定。
To be clear, Doug and his father don't have any special insight into Trump's policies or thinking.
需要明确的是，道格和他的父亲对特朗普的政策或想法没有任何特殊的见解。
They know the same things regular voters know about what he's going to do.
他们和普通选民一样了解他将要做什么。
But in this meeting, Doug wasn't choosing between Republicans.
但在这次会议上，道格并没有在共和党人之间做出选择。
He'd set aside the war of big ideas in that room.
他把那个房间里的大创意之战放在一边。
He focused on the battle against Hillary Clinton.
他专注于与希拉里·克林顿的斗争。
This has turned into a team sport for him, and there is really only one team that Doug can be on.
这对他来说已经变成了一项团队运动，而道格实际上只能加入一个团队。
The Deasons are going to do a lot more than $5,400.
Deasons 的收入远不止 5,400 美元。
Here's the plan.
这是计划。
Between Doug and his dad, they're giving $900,000 to the Trump Victory Fund.
道格和他的父亲向特朗普胜利基金捐赠了 90 万美元。
Dad's going to throw a fundraiser at Laguna Beach.
爸爸要在拉古纳海滩举办筹款活动。
Doug's going to call around to find the right super PAC for supporting Trump and then maybe give the PAC a million, or two, or three.
道格将四处寻找合适的超级政治行动委员会来支持特朗普，然后可能会给政治行动委员会一百万、两百万或三百万。
I had my Trump jerseys dropped off today.
今天我的特朗普球衣被寄回了。
Oh, gosh.
哦，天哪。
What are these?
这些是什么？
Doug Deason Trump jerseys.
道格迪森特朗普球衣。
Yeah, same guys made them.
是的，是同一个人做的。
It's Toby Neugebauer.
我是托比·纽格鲍尔。
You are like those guys.
你就像那些人一样。
You just move on to the next one.
您只需继续下一个。
Well, no. It's a Republican.
嗯，不。这是一个共和党人。
Zoe Chace I know.
佐伊·切斯我知道。
You're right.
你说得对。
Zoe Chace There are a lot of Republicans like Doug, apparently.
佐伊·查斯 显然，像道格这样的共和党人有很多。
Trump's gone from that million dollars at the beginning of June, when he hadn't figured anything out, to $51 million just last week, according to The Washington Post .
据《华盛顿邮报》报道，特朗普从 6 月初的 100 万美元（当时他还没有弄清楚任何事情）增加到了上周的 5100 万美元。
Half of that money is grassroots-- people getting online.
其中一半的钱来自基层——人们上网。
Half of that is the Dougs of the world maxing out with the RNC, and Charles Koch.
其中一半是来自共和党全国委员会的道格和查尔斯·科赫。
So you're going to call Charles and say you met with Trump.
所以你要打电话给查尔斯并说你会见了特朗普。
And you're going to say--
你会说——
Just say, hey, we met with him.
只是说，嘿，我们见过他。
We had the opportunity to meet with him.
我们有机会与他见面。
We were withholding judgment on him until we met with him.
在我们见到他之前，我们不对他做出判断。
Now that we've had time to spend time with him, we intend to support him financially.
既然我们有时间和他在一起，我们打算在经济上支持他。
We think that it would be in everyone's best interest, and your own, and the network's, if you would meet with him.
我们认为，如果您愿意与他会面，这将符合每个人、您自己以及网络的最佳利益。
But I just got an email from Doug last weekend.
但上周末我刚刚收到道格发来的一封电子邮件。
He wrote, "Charles is not ready to meet with Trump yet.
他写道：“查尔斯还没有准备好与特朗普会面。
He may never be."
他可能永远不会。”
Coming up, a high school principal loses his morals over boots.
接下来，一位高中校长因为靴子而失去了道德。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Zoe Chace, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
Today, we're talking about getting your money's worth for things, and just how powerful that drive can be to spend our money wisely.
今天，我们谈论的是让你的钱物有所值，以及明智地花钱的动力有多大。
Sometimes it's millions of dollars, but now we're at Act Two, Bean Counters.
有时是数百万美元，但现在我们处于第二幕，数数。
There's a way to calculate how satisfied we are, as a country, with all of our things.
有一种方法可以计算我们作为一个国家对所有事物的满意度。
It's done by the American Customer Satisfaction Index.
这是根据美国客户满意度指数得出的。
Of course, we are never satisfied, but in the last two years, this little index has been in a nosedive, which is weird.
当然，我们永远不会满足，但最近两年，这个小指数却急剧下降，这很奇怪。
Like, what was so great about two years ago?
比如，两年前有什么伟大的事情？
Apparently, we are epically dissatisfied with all the things-- health insurance, cable, government, airlines.
显然，我们对所有的事情都非常不满意——健康保险、有线电视、政府、航空公司。
This is why I like this next story.
这就是为什么我喜欢下一个故事。
It's a test.
这是一个测试。
What happens if you guarantee complete, eternal, 100% satisfaction to the habitually unsatisfied?
如果你保证让习惯性不满意的人获得完全、永恒、100% 的满意，会发生什么？
Sara Corbett has this story.
萨拉·科贝特有这样一个故事。
Here's a story my friend Derek tells for penance-- those are his words, for penance-- a story in which he says he's--
这是我的朋友德里克为了赎罪而讲的一个故事——这是他的话，为了赎罪——在这个故事中他说他——
Being a dirtbag.
成为一个土包。
Sara Corbett Maybe even more than a dirtbag.
萨拉·科贝特（Sara Corbett）也许不仅仅是一个垃圾。
Total sleazebag.
完全是个卑鄙小人。
Sara Corbett Because we're in America, this morality tale takes place in a customer service department at LL Bean in Maine, where we both live.
Sara Corbett 因为我们在美国，所以这个道德故事发生在缅因州 LL Bean 的客户服务部门，我们都住在那里。
This story involves a pair of cross-country ski boots.
这个故事涉及一双越野滑雪靴。
I had these boots that were given when we were first married.
我有这双靴子，是我们第一次结婚时送给我的。
When was that?
那是什么时候？
Derek '92.
德里克'92。
And so this was maybe-- we'll say 2007 or something, maybe later than that.
所以这可能是——我们会说 2007 年或者其他时间，也许比那晚。
And one of the boots gave out.
其中一只靴子坏了。
And it had LL Bean written right on it, so I knew where it came from.
上面写着 LL Bean，所以我知道它来自哪里。
What had you heard?
你听到了什么？
Derek Yeah, the understanding is that they will accept returns at any time for no reason at all, for any reason.
德里克 是的，我们的理解是他们会随时接受退货，无任何理由，任何理由。
So I decided I had to test if this was true.
所以我决定必须测试一下这是否属实。
So I went and I remember the woman pretty clearly.
于是我就去了，我清楚地记得那个女人。
And she asked a few questions.
她问了几个问题。
And she says, so when did you get the boots?
她说，那你什么时候拿到靴子的？
And I said, I don't recall exactly.
我说，我记不太清了。
They were a gift.
它们是一份礼物。
And she said, roughly how long ago?
她说，大约多久以前？
And I said, I don't know, maybe 15 years?
我说，我不知道，也许15年？
She said, thank you.
她说，谢谢。
So what is your reason for return?
那么您退货的理由是什么？
They just fell apart.
他们就这样崩溃了。
After 15 years.
15年后。
Derek Thank you.
德里克谢谢你。
So were you satisfied with their performance?
那么您对他们的表现还满意吗？
Yeah, they were great.
是的，他们很棒。
They just wore out.
他们只是累坏了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
You get the sense I could say anything and they'd say thank you.
你知道我可以说什么，他们都会说谢谢。
Here you go.
干得好。
And with each kind of bit of her gratitude, my shame just expanded till it was supersize.
随着她的每一种感激之情，我的羞耻感不断扩大，直至变得巨大。
And then she gave me the check for the amount of the boots, and I went and got new boots.
然后她给了我靴子数量的支票，我就去买了新靴子。
Technically speaking, this is allowed at LL Bean under their return policy.
从技术上讲，LL Bean 的退货政策允许这样做。
Technically.
从技术上来说。
No one at the store was going to tell Derek to his face that he had done anything wrong.
店里没有人会当面告诉德里克他做错了什么。
But that didn't make it feel right.
但这并没有让人感觉不对劲。
I had the long drive home of shame.
我羞愧地开了很长时间的车回家。
It felt like every police officer was on notice, and they would now know who I really was as a human being because I returned boots and got a free pair for no good reason.
感觉就像每个警察都注意到了，他们现在知道我作为一个人到底是谁，因为我退回了靴子，并无缘无故地得到了一双免费的。
And tell us what you do for a living, Derek.
告诉我们你以什么为生，德里克。
I'm a high school principal.
我是一名高中校长。
I try to shape the young minds of tomorrow to make correct moral choices.
我努力塑造明天的年轻人做出正确的道德选择。
I started asking around, just curious to see who else had sailed into the moral Bermuda Triangle that is the LL Bean returns desk.
我开始四处打听，只是想看看还有谁驶入了道德百慕大三角，也就是 LL Bean 的退货柜台。
A different friend of mine told me he had been returning his elementary school backpack every five years or so since sixth grade.
我的另一个朋友告诉我，从六年级开始，他每五年左右就会归还一次小学背包。
He's now 30.
他现在30岁了。
I made a quick phone call to another guy about another backpack.
我很快就给另一个人打了电话，询问另一个背包的事情。
Hey, Matt.
嘿，马特。
Matt Sara, hey.
马特·萨拉，嘿。
How's it going?
怎么样了？
This is my brother Matt.
这是我的兄弟马特。
He bought his backpack at the beginning of one summer in college then spent three months camping in the woods of New Hampshire, doing trail maintenance for a summer job.
他在大学的一个暑假开始时买了背包，然后在新罕布什尔州的树林里露营了三个月，为一份暑期工作做步道维护。
He lived out of that backpack-- an LL Bean backpack-- for three months before deciding it wasn't roomy enough.
他用那个背包（LL Bean 背包）生活了三个月，然后才发现它不够宽敞。
So he took himself, and it, to the returns desk.
于是他带着它来到了退货柜台。
It was trashed, but it was still usable.
虽然已经被扔掉了，但是还是可以用的。
And it was all greasy from like-- they get all greasy and smelly and stuff like that.
而且都是油腻的——它们变得又油又臭，诸如此类。
The bug dope we use is Old Woodsman.
我们使用的虫剂是老樵夫。
This particular bug dope is made with pine tar, which is very sticky.
这种特殊的驱虫剂是用松焦油制成的，非常粘。
Sticks to everything.
坚持一切。
And then everything sticks to it-- pine needles, dirt, dead bugs.
然后所有东西都会粘在上面——松针、泥土、死虫子。
So all of this was on Matt's backpack along with three months of young man back sweat.
所以所有这些都在马特的背包里，还有年轻人三个月后背上的汗水。
Matt is clear-- and was clear at the time-- that it wasn't LL Bean's fault that he bought a too-small backpack.
马特很清楚——当时也很清楚——LL Bean 买了一个太小的背包并不是他的错。
It was his fault.
这是他的错。
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
But then again, I had heard that you could return stuff.
但话又说回来，我听说你可以退货。
And I was like, well, would they really take this back?
我当时想，好吧，他们真的会收回这个吗？
Yes, they did, and so, so much more.
是的，他们做到了，而且还有更多。
LL Bean sells a lot of stuff, all kinds.
LL Bean 卖很多东西，各种各样。
It's sort of like Target, but for outdoorsy New Englanders, and a lot more expensive.
它有点像塔吉特（Target），但适合喜欢户外活动的新英格兰人，而且要贵得多。
Part of the reason it's more expensive is because the company, which has been around since 1912, claims their products are extra high quality, built to last.
其价格较高的部分原因是该公司自 1912 年成立以来，声称其产品质量极高，经久耐用。
And the company's return policy is built to last, too.
该公司的退货政策也是持久的。
Other stores give you a week, a month, maybe a year.
其他商店给你一周、一个月、甚至一年的时间。
LL Bean gives you forever.
LL Bean 给你永远。
And I sort of knew that.
我大概知道这一点。
I knew the gist of their policy, or at least the urban legend version of it.
我知道他们政策的要点，或者至少是都市传说版本。
For 19 years, I've lived down the highway from the flagship store in Freeport, Maine.
19 年来，我一直住在缅因州弗里波特旗舰店附近的高速公路上。
I have friends who work there.
我有朋友在那里工作。
But I didn't know that people were truly, truly returning 15-year-old boots and getting away with it.
但我不知道人们真的真的把 15 年前的靴子归还并侥幸逃脱了惩罚。
Is anyone calling bull-[BLEEP] on this?
有人为此喊牛-[BLEEP]吗？
Is anyone on either side of these transactions drawing the line?
这些交易的双方是否有人划清界限？
Once I started looking into it, it felt more and more like LL Bean's return policy is this giant, 100-year-old psych experiment.
当我开始研究它时，我越来越觉得 LL Bean 的退货政策就像是一个有着 100 年历史的巨大心理实验。
You just bring it back and we'll give you-- honestly give you-- as much money for it as humanly possible.
你只要把它带回来，我们就会给你——老实说给你——尽可能多的钱。
That was told to me by the guy who trained me.
这是训练我的人告诉我的。
This is Jonathan Woodward.
这是乔纳森·伍德沃德。
He worked at the LL Bean returns desk seasonally up until last year.
直到去年，他都季节性地在 LL Bean 退货服务台工作。
He says the store used to give out cash for returns.
他说，商店过去常常给予现金退货。
Now it's store credit, but the principle is the same.
现在是商店信用，但原理是一样的。
Jonathan explained that the return policy is called, with reverence, the guarantee.
乔纳森解释说，退货政策被称为“保证”。
And within the company, it's not so much policy as sacred foundational text.
在公司内部，与其说是政策，不如说是神圣的基础文本。
It's printed on every receipt and on the store's website.
它印在每张收据和商店的网站上。
It reads, "our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way.
上面写着：“我们的产品保证在各个方面都能提供 100% 的满意度。
Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise."
如果事实证明并非如此，请随时退回从我们这里购买的任何物品。”
Jonathan says, for him, behind the returns desk, the guarantee means not just that the customer is always right, not just that the customer is going to walk away satisfied that they're right, but also that they're going to walk away with--
乔纳森说，对他来说，在退货柜台后面，保证不仅意味着顾客永远是对的，不仅意味着顾客会满意地离开，因为他们是对的，而且还意味着他们离开时——
As much money for whatever they bring in as you can possibly figure out how to do.
无论他们带来多少钱，你都可以弄清楚如何做。
Wow.
哇。
Jonathan Woodward Yeah.
乔纳森·伍德沃德 是的。
It's the Magic Kingdom in flannel.
这是法兰绒的魔法王国。
LL Bean does sell a lot of flannel-- flannel sheets, flannel shirts, flannel pajamas.
LL Bean 确实卖很多法兰绒——法兰绒床单、法兰绒衬衫、法兰绒睡衣。
Also non-flannel-- fishing rods, mountain bikes, luggage, bathing suits, food, moccasins, watches, books, hunting rifles, sleds, furniture, canoes, socks.
还有非法兰绒——钓鱼竿、山地自行车、行李箱、泳衣、食品、鹿皮鞋、手表、书籍、猎枪、雪橇、家具、独木舟、袜子。
They sold a total of $1.6 billion worth of those things last year, all of which, of course, can be brought back.
去年他们总共售出了价值 16 亿美元的这些东西，当然，所有这些东西都可以收回来。
And Jonathan says, at the returns desk, people are trained to keep their face and tone neutral, to not register any judgement whatsoever.
乔纳森说，在退货柜台，人们接受的培训是要保持中立的表情和语气，不要做出任何判断。
Like when someone shows up at the front of the line wanting to return a half-eaten cookie.
就像有人出现在队伍前面想要归还吃了一半的饼干一样。
This actually happened to Jonathan once.
这实际上发生在乔纳森身上一次。
You can't even look at them meaningfully when they're returning.
当他们回来时，你甚至无法有意义地看着他们。
What do you read on their faces?
你从他们的脸上读到了什么？
Is it a certain kind of person who--
是不是某一类人——
Oh, no. It's everybody.
哦，不。是每个人。
Sara Corbett And here we are, Monday morning, the return area at LL Bean.
萨拉·科贝特 (Sara Corbett) 周一早上，我们来到了 LL Bean 的返程区。
Customers are pouring in.
顾客纷至沓来。
People are holding boots, fly rods, jackets, a pair of seersucker shorts, a Swiss army knife.
人们拿着靴子、飞钓竿、夹克、一条泡泡纱短裤和一把瑞士军刀。
One guy's carrying an entire Adirondack chair.
一个人拿着一整张阿迪朗达克椅子。
Another has lugged in a bike rack.
另一个人拖着自行车架。
There's one of those roped-off corrals that keeps people in line, and a long row of registers, where the customer service people stand, each one of them wearing a forest green shirt, each one of them looking cheerful and accommodating.
那里有一个用绳子围起来的畜栏，让人们排队，还有一长排收银台，顾客服务人员站在那里，每个人都穿着一件森林绿色的衬衫，每个人看起来都开朗而乐于助人。
Your receipt has our guarantee on the back.
您的收据背面有我们的保证。
And the survey is on the front.
调查就在前面。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Have a good day.
祝你有美好的一天。
Cashier Congratulations--
收银员恭喜——
A woman sets a pile of clothes on the return desk, including a v-neck T-shirt that she's just not into.
一位女士在退货柜台上放了一堆衣服，其中包括一件她不喜欢的 V 领 T 恤。
It plunges too much.
跌幅太大了。
I don't do plunge.
我不做跳水。
Our daughter does, but not me.
我们的女儿会，但我不会。
Seems like a legit return to me.
对我来说似乎是一个合法的回归。
The shirt was new.
这件衬衫是新的。
She got it home, regretted the purchase, and promptly brought it back.
她把它带回家，后悔购买了，并立即将其退回。
I spent hours hanging around the returns desk over the course of a couple of days, and I'd say that maybe 50% of the returns I saw were straightforward like this.
几天来，我在退货柜台待了几个小时，我想说，我看到的退货中，也许 50% 都是这样简单的。
But there were plenty that seemed to me questionable, if not outright crazy-- on part with the half-eaten cookie-- like a woman who showed up with a huge load of used twin-sized bedding.
但在我看来，有很多事情即使不是彻底疯狂，也是值得怀疑的——部分是因为吃了一半的饼干——比如一个女人带着一大堆用过的双人床上用品出现。
Seriously used bedding, I should say, because she'd upgraded to a queen bed.
我应该说，认真使用的床上用品，因为她升级到了一张大床。
Is dissatisfaction the right word for this?
不满这个词合适吗？
Or the people who brought back a living room chair because they'd done a bad job strapping the chair to their car, so when it fell off and broke in the middle of a highway, they were upset.
或者那些把客厅椅子带回来的人，因为他们把椅子绑在车上做得不好，所以当它在高速公路中间掉下来并断裂时，他们很沮丧。
Or maybe they'd call it dissatisfied.
或者也许他们会称之为不满意。
They got store credit.
他们获得了商店信用。
They all did.
他们都这么做了。
Every one of these customers got store credit.
这些顾客中的每一位都获得了商店信用。
Then there was this guy, an older gentleman who patiently waited in line and then found himself in front of Cindy Wilson, one of the returns desk people.
然后有一个人，一位年长的绅士，耐心地排队等候，然后发现自己站在辛迪·威尔逊（Cindy Wilson）面前，她是退货柜台的工作人员之一。
He pulled three extremely worn-out shirts-- two T-shirts and a chambray-- out of a paper bag.
他从纸袋里拿出三件极度破旧的衬衫——两件T恤和一件青年布。
I love these.
我喜欢这些。
I wonder if they can be repaired.
我想知道它们是否可以修复。
I've had them for years.
我已经拥有它们很多年了。
They never wear out.
它们永远不会磨损。
Oh, no, we can't repair them.
哦，不，我们无法修复它们。
What's wrong with them?
他们怎么了？
He gestures at the shirt, saying something about how the stitching is coming apart around the armpits, though it's hard to see any specific wear and tear because the shirts just look generally worn and torn.
他指着衬衫，说了一些关于腋窝周围的缝线如何破裂的事情，尽管很难看到任何具体的磨损，因为衬衫看起来普遍磨损和撕裂。
If you're not happy with them, we're happy to take them back for you.
如果您对它们不满意，我们很乐意为您退货。
Well, I've had them for years.
嗯，我已经拥有它们很多年了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Well, it says satisfaction guarantee.
嗯，上面写着满意保证。
We're going to leave that up to you, if you're satisfied or not.
无论您是否满意，我们都将由您决定。
And how long do you think you've had them?
你认为你已经拥有它们多久了？
40 years?
40年？
That's me in the background blurting out, 40 years?
背景是我脱口而出，40 年？
Cindy doesn't blurt anything out.
辛迪没有脱口而出任何话。
Wow.
哇。
Good for you.
对你有好处。
We'll get you a couple new ones.
我们会给你一些新的。
She issues store credit for the guy's shirts.
她为这家伙的衬衫发放商店信用。
$84.19, which has got to be more than he paid for them in 1976, so yay for inflation.
84.19 美元，这肯定比他 1976 年买的钱还要多，所以通货膨胀吧。
In some ways, this is exactly the customer LL Bean wants-- loyal, loves the stuff.
从某些方面来说，这正是 LL Bean 想要的客户——忠诚、热爱产品。
If he and his shirts embody a larger dilemma here, when it comes to the guarantee, there's a clear subtext-- or I think it's clear, anyway-- which is basically, be cool, everybody.
如果他和他的衬衫在这里体现了一个更大的困境，那么当谈到保证时，就有一个明确的潜台词——或者我认为无论如何，这很清楚——这基本上就是，每个人都要冷静。
Please, after 40 years, maybe you are satisfied.
拜托，四十年后，也许你就满意了。
Maybe it's time to pay for a new shirt.
也许是时候付钱买一件新衬衫了。
I made my way backstage, right behind the returns desk, to a huge warehouse-like room.
我走到后台，就在退货柜台后面，来到一个像仓库一样的巨大房间。
It's full of returned stuff in giant bins and plastic bags.
里面装满了装在巨大垃圾箱和塑料袋中的退回物品。
Heaps and piles of them.
成堆又成堆。
Shoes and tops, socks.
鞋子和上衣，袜子。
Sara Corbett Cindy showed me around.
萨拉·科贝特·辛迪带我四处参观。
She's been working in the returns department 25 years.
她已在退货部门工作 25 年。
She's a lifelong Mainer.
她是终生的迈纳人。
Cheery, matter-of-fact.
开朗，实事求是。
She says one of the best things about working for Bean is the employee store, which is where some of the nicer stuff in the bins ends up.
她说，为 Bean 工作的最好的事情之一就是员工商店，垃圾箱里一些更好的东西最终都会存放在那里。
It gets sold to employees at a deep discount.
它以大幅折扣出售给员工。
$0.50 pants, $15 comforters.
裤子 0.50 美元，被子 15 美元。
Cindy's house is full of other people's castoffs.
辛迪的房子里堆满了别人的废弃物。
Her towels have strangers' initials monogrammed on them.
她的毛巾上印有陌生人姓名首字母的字母组合。
Her dog slept on a dog bed, also monogrammed with another dog's initials?
她的狗睡在狗床上，上面还刻有另一只狗的名字首字母？
Somebody's initials.
某人名字的首字母。
Dog collars.
狗项圈。
Sara Corbett A dog collar?
萨拉·科贝特 狗项圈？
What would somebody say about the dog collar?
对于狗项圈，有人会怎么说？
Just didn't fit?
只是不适合吗？
Well, I've heard stories from my dog died, so they no longer need the dog collar.
嗯，我听说我的狗死了，所以他们不再需要狗项圈。
It's their perception of the satisfaction guarantee.
这是他们对满意度保证的看法。
I'm just going to say what Cindy won't say.
我只是想说辛迪不会说的话。
It seems like some people are sort of renting stuff.
看来有些人是在租东西。
But it's actually better than renting, like renting/borrowing almost.
但它实际上比租赁更好，就像租赁/借用一样。
There's a kind of seasonal ebb and flow to what people bring back.
人们带回来的东西有一种季节性的潮起潮落。
At the end of ski season, skis come back.
滑雪季节结束时，滑雪板又回来了。
When turkey hunting season is over, turkey hunting equipment comes back.
当火鸡狩猎季节结束时，火鸡狩猎设备又回来了。
Cindy had a story from the cash era, when the band Phish put on a three-day show in the tiny northern town of Limestone, Maine, and 60,000 people showed up for it.
辛迪（Cindy）有一个关于现金时代的故事，当时 Phish 乐队在缅因州北部小镇石灰石举行了为期三天的演出，有 60,000 人到场观看。
When the Phish concert happened years ago, they would buy their equipment on the way to the concert, and when the concert ended, they returned all their equipment.
几年前举办Phish演唱会时，他们会在去演唱会的路上购买设备，演唱会结束后，他们会归还所有设备。
And you just gave out cash?
你刚刚给了现金？
Cindy Wilson Yes, we gave out cash then.
辛迪·威尔逊 是的，我们当时给了现金。
Yes.
是的。
What kinds of stuff were people buying and returning?
人们购买和退货什么样的东西？
Camping equipment.
野营装备。
It was tents and stoves and sleeping bags.
那是帐篷、炉灶和睡袋。
I don't know if you remember that concert, but it poured all weekend, so everything was soaking wet when it came back, and muddy.
我不知道你是否还记得那场音乐会，整个周末都在倾盆大雨，所以回来时一切都湿透了，而且泥泞不堪。
And your job was to just take it back and say thanks very much?
你的工作就是收回它并表示非常感谢？
If they said they weren't satisfied.
如果他们说不满意。
Their tent didn't hold up in the rain and their sleeping bags got wet.
他们的帐篷在雨中撑不住了，睡袋也被淋湿了。
They all had receipts, so there was no reason for us to say anything.
他们都有收据，所以我们没有理由说什么。
It was all receipted returns.
都是收到的退货。
Cindy says not everybody can hack it at the returns desk.
辛迪说，并不是每个人都能在退货柜台破解它。
We try to gauge by personality who we want to bring in here because it does take a certain kind of person.
我们尝试根据个性来衡量我们想引进谁，因为这确实需要某种类型的人。
People come in here and they do it for a week or two, and they just can't set their personal issues aside.
人们来到这里，他们会做一两周，但他们就是不能把个人问题放在一边。
So they just choose to go back to the sales floor.
所以他们只是选择回到销售楼层。
There are some people that have been here 30 years that will not come in here and do this.
有些人在这里已经 30 年了，但他们不会来这里做这件事。
Because?
因为？
Cindy Wilson It personally bothers them.
辛迪·威尔逊 这让他们个人感到困扰。
It's difficult.
它很难。
It's a real mind-bending experience to just witness people coming in.
目睹人们进来真是一次令人费解的经历。
Here's Jonathan again.
乔纳森又来了。
Unlike Cindy and pretty much every other returns desk person I interviewed, he didn't hesitate to spell out exactly how it felt to stand before, say, a pair of used sheepskin slippers presented for return, not because the customer wasn't satisfied with them, but because the customer clearly loved them.
与辛迪和几乎所有我采访过的其他退货柜台工作人员不同的是，他毫不犹豫地详细说明了站在一双用过的羊皮拖鞋面前等待退货的感受，不是因为顾客对它们不满意，而是因为顾客显然很喜欢它们。
This isn't an isolated situation, by the way.
顺便说一句，这并不是一个孤立的情况。
There are masses of slippers piled up in the returns warehouse.
退货仓库里堆满了大量的拖鞋。
These truly disintegrating pieces of animal hide and fur that have been exposed to their feet for years and years and years of wandering around.
这些真正会分解的动物皮革和毛皮碎片，多年来一直暴露在他们的脚下，四处游荡。
The hide is all shiny.
整个皮革都闪闪发亮。
The shearling is totally mustard-colored and damp and matted.
羊毛皮完全是芥末色的，潮湿且杂乱。
And it smells like four years of somebody's toes.
闻起来就像某人的脚趾四年了。
And they put them in front of you and they say, I want to return these.
他们把它们放在你面前，他们说，我想归还这些。
And there's no question you can ask that would-- there's no question, like don't you think that you might have gotten enough use out of these to warrant buying some new ones?
毫无疑问，你可以问——毫无疑问，你不认为你可能已经从这些产品中得到了足够的使用，以保证购买一些新的吗？
I mean, Nikes fall apart in a year, but you don't even ask that.
我的意思是，耐克一年之内就会崩溃，但你甚至不问这个。
You just look at them, and your face is totally neutral, and their face is totally neutral, and you're going to both agree that the normal rules of retail interaction do not apply in this situation.
你只要看着他们，你的脸是完全中立的，他们的脸也是完全中立的，你们都会同意零售互动的正常规则不适用于这种情况。
Honestly, hearing what I heard, seeing what I saw, I wasn't sure who I felt upset with, the customers for their brazenness, or the company for just passively letting it all happen.
老实说，听到我听到的，看到我看到的，我不确定我对谁感到不安，是客户的厚颜无耻，还是公司被动地让这一切发生。
LL Bean officials won't say how much the returns are costing them.
LL Bean 的官员不愿透露他们因退货而损失了多少钱。
They don't even try to estimate the ratio of legitimate returns to whoppers.
他们甚至不尝试估计合法回报与巨额回报的比率。
Everyone I talked to there just kept saying, it's up to the customer.
我在那里交谈过的每个人都一直说，这取决于客户。
Customer makes the decision about what it means to be satisfied or not.
客户决定满意或不满意意味着什么。
Here's what the company does now.
这就是该公司现在所做的事情。
The guarantee was not built for modern times.
这种保证不是为现代而建立的。
It came from one main shopkeeper, Leon Leonwood Bean, who sold mail-order hunting boots with a promise.
它来自一位主要店主莱昂·莱昂伍德·比恩 (Leon Leonwood Bean)，他以邮购方式出售狩猎靴，并做出了承诺。
If you weren't satisfied, you could return them.
如果您不满意，可以退货。
A century later, people are buying used LL Bean products in bulk on eBay and returning them for full price.
一个世纪后，人们在 eBay 上批量购买二手 LL Bean 产品，并以全价退货。
Others scoop up piles of old parkas and shirts at thrift shops, stuff them into garbage bags, and bring them back for store credit.
其他人则在旧货店里捡起成堆的旧派克大衣和衬衫，把它们塞进垃圾袋，然后带回来换取商店积分。
I talked to one guy who found an LL Bean jacket at Goodwill for $10 and returned it, triumphantly, for $360 in store credit.
我和一个人聊过，他在 Goodwill 花了 10 美元找到了一件 LL Bean 夹克，并以 360 美元的商店积分得意洋洋地归还了它。
I'm not saying this is a tragedy for the human race.
我并不是说这是人类的悲剧。
I am saying that a hundred years ago, when the guarantee was born, the internet didn't exist.
我是说，一百年前，当担保诞生时，互联网还不存在。
Thrifting was not a verb.
节俭不是一个动词。
The company tries, in its earnest flannel way, to push back.
该公司试图以真诚的法兰绒方式进行反击。
They've asked Goodwill stores to put a big, black X on the label of donated LL Bean clothes.
他们要求亲善商店在捐赠的 LL Bean 衣服的标签上贴上一个黑色的大 X。
Anything with an X on the label can't be returned.
标签上带有 X 的任何商品均不能退货。
They've started asking for driver's licenses to keep track of a person's habits.
他们开始要求驾驶执照来记录一个人的习惯。
If you're returning a lot but not buying a lot, you might get a polite cease and desist letter basically asking you to shop elsewhere.
如果您经常退货但购买量不多，您可能会收到一封礼貌的停止函，基本上要求您到其他地方购物。
One woman on Twitter bragged recently about how she got some old boots for $8 at Goodwill and swapped them for a new pair at the store.
最近，一位女士在 Twitter 上吹嘘自己如何在 Goodwill 以 8 美元的价格买到了一些旧靴子，然后在店里换了一双新靴子。
She got a gentle reprimand tweet from LL Bean, signed LB.
她收到了 LL Bean 发来的一条温和的谴责推文，署名为 LB。
That's about as far as they'll go.
他们大概就到此为止了。
I found out employees actually used to be allowed to inject just a tiny bit of judgment into their interactions with customers.
我发现员工实际上曾经被允许在与客户的互动中加入一点点判断。
They could, for example, say primly, that's not in the spirit of the guarantee.
例如，他们可以一本正经地说，这不符合保证的精神。
They could ask pointed follow-up questions or pause meaningfully before granting a return.
他们可以提出尖锐的后续问题，或者在给予回报之前有意义地暂停。
That's what the employees I spoke with actually called it-- the meaningful pause.
这就是我采访过的员工所说的——有意义的停顿。
There were even situations-- four of them-- where they could outright refuse a return.
甚至在某些情况下——其中有四种——他们可以完全拒绝退货。
This is Bridget, who worked seasonally at LL Bean for several years.
我是布里奇特，她在 LL Bean 季节性工作了几年。
Meaning that if somebody came in and said, I lost 20 pounds and so I don't want my pants, you were supposed to say no?
这意味着如果有人进来说，我减了 20 磅，所以我不想要我的裤子，你应该拒绝吗？
Right.
正确的。
Yeah, we would say, well, I mean, it's 100% satisfaction guarantee.
是的，我们会说，嗯，我的意思是，这是 100% 满意的保证。
That actually-- that's not covered under it, those things.
实际上，那些东西并没有涵盖在其中。
But LL Bean has let all those things go.
但 LL Bean 已经放弃了所有这些事情。
Meaningful pauses are no longer allowed.
不再允许有意义的停顿。
Death, divorce, fire, and a killer dieting streak now officially count as situations that might, in fact, lead to dissatisfaction with your stuff.
死亡、离婚、火灾和致命的节食现在正式被视为可能实际上导致对你的东西不满意的情况。
This move wasn't just to coddle customers.
此举不仅仅是为了讨好顾客。
It was too hard on the staff to have to parse everyone's reasoning to make judgments about people all day long.
对于员工来说，整天要分析每个人的推理来对人做出判断，这太困难了。
Cindy, the returns veteran, says she sees her job more like being a bartender, listening to people's stories if they want to talk, giving them what they want, whether she thinks it's good for them or not.
退伍军人辛迪表示，她认为自己的工作更像是一名调酒师，如果人们想倾诉，就倾听他们的故事，为他们提供他们想要的东西，无论她认为这对他们有好处还是没有好处。
It's hard to be both a bartender and a moralist, especially because, yeah, she's seen people who are probably gaming the system, but she's also seen people who are probably just trying to get by.
既是一名调酒师又是一名道德家是很困难的，尤其是因为，是的，她见过那些可能在玩弄体制的人，但她也见过那些可能只是勉强度日的人。
She's seen people bringing their old stuff back at Christmastime so they can afford presents for their kids.
她看到人们在圣诞节期间把旧东西带回来，这样他们就可以买得起送给孩子的礼物。
She said people tell her they're going to sell their store credit on eBay so they can get money to buy oil to heat their home.
她说，人们告诉她，他们将在 eBay 上出售商店积分，这样他们就可以赚到钱来购买石油来为家里取暖。
She said sometimes people bring in their dead spouse's clothing, saying it just makes them too sad having it around.
她说，有时人们会把死去配偶的衣服带进来，说这会让他们太难过。
When I first approached LL Bean about doing this story, I thought they'd never agree to it, that they wouldn't want me talking about the guarantee on the radio at all, like I'd be offering some sort of playbook for the return policy maximizers of the world.
当我第一次与 LL Bean 联系制作这个故事时，我以为他们永远不会同意，他们根本不希望我在广播中谈论保证，就像我为世界上回报政策最大化者提供某种剧本一样。
But actually, they seemed to think the opposite.
但实际上，他们的想法似乎恰恰相反。
It's like they doubled down.
就像他们双倍下注一样。
Or maybe they're worried enough about the stretching of the guarantee that they want us all to be thinking more about our satisfaction.
或者也许他们非常担心保证的延长，他们希望我们所有人更多地考虑我们的满意度。
There's been a debate recently inside the company about whether to change the guarantee, whether it's just too generous for the times we live in.
最近公司内部有一场争论，讨论是否要改变保证，对于我们生活的时代来说，这是否过于慷慨。
But for now, they say, they will continue to accept people, and their stuff, and their lack of satisfaction, every day, as is.
但现在，他们说，他们将继续每天按原样接受人们、他们的东西以及他们缺乏满足感。
Sara Corbett is a writer in Portland, Maine.
萨拉·科贝特 (Sara Corbett) 是缅因州波特兰市的一名作家。
I am not embarrassed to say on the radio that I read that book The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up , which, if you haven't read it, says you should go through everything you own one by one, ask yourself, looking at the object, does this bring me joy?
我并不不好意思在广播中说，我读过《改变生活的整理魔法》这本书，如果你还没有读过，这本书说你应该一件一件地检查你拥有的所有东西，问问自己，看着这个物体，这会给我带来快乐吗？
And if it doesn't, get rid of it.
如果没有，就摆脱它。
Doesn't matter if you got a deal on it or you paid a lot of money because this is how you will feel the magic of being surrounded by the things that you love.
如果你达成了交易或者你花了很多钱，这并不重要，因为这就是你感受到被你所爱的事物包围的魔力的方式。
I like this idea a lot, but what is that like for the object?
我非常喜欢这个想法，但是这个物体是什么样的呢？
The book does not talk about this.
书里没有讲这个。
What is it like for the object to be constantly worried about whether or not you love it enough to keep it around you?
对于一个物体来说，不断担心你是否足够爱它而将它留在你身边是什么感觉？
This is Act Three, Make It Count.
这是第三幕，让它发挥作用。
We finally hear from the voiceless object in a story from Simon Rich called "Unprotected." Heads up, this story acknowledges the existence of sex-- safe sex.
我们终于听到了西蒙·里奇（Simon Rich）的故事《不受保护》中无声物体的声音。注意，这个故事承认性行为——安全性行为的存在。
I born in factory.
我出生在工厂。
They put me in wrapper.
他们把我包裹起来。
They seal me in box.
他们把我封在盒子里。
Three of us in box.
我们三个人在包厢里。
In early days, they move us around.
早期，他们让我们到处走动。
From factory to warehouse.
从工厂到仓库。
From warehouse to truck.
从仓库到卡车。
From truck to store.
从卡车到商店。
One day in store, boy human sees us on shelf.
有一天，在商店里，人类男孩在货架上看到了我们。
He grabs us, hides us under shirt.
他抓住我们，把我们藏在衬衫下面。
He rushes outside.
他冲出去。
He goes to house, runs into bedroom, locks door.
他走进家，跑进卧室，锁上门。
He tears open box and takes me out.
他撕开盒子，把我带了出去。
He puts me in wallet.
他把我放进钱包里。
I stay in wallet long, long time.
我在钱包里待了很长时间。
This is story of my life inside wallet.
这是我钱包里的生活故事。
The first friend I meet in wallet is Student ID Jordi Hirschfeld.
我在钱包里遇到的第一个朋友是学生 ID Jordi Hirschfeld。
He is card.
他是卡。
He has been around longest, he says.
他说，他在世的时间最长。
He introduces me to other cards.
他向我介绍了其他卡片。
I meet Provisional Driver's License Jordi Hirschfeld, Swimming Pool Access Card Jordi Hirschfeld, Jamba Juice Value Card, Business Card Albert Hirschfeld, DDS, Scarsdale Comic Book Explosion Discount Card
我遇见了 临时驾驶执照 Jordi Hirschfeld、游泳池使用卡 Jordi Hirschfeld、Jamba 果汁超值卡、名片卡 Albert Hirschfeld、DDS、Scarsdale 漫画爆炸折扣卡
In middle of wallet, there live dollars.
钱包中间，有活币。
I am less close to them because they're always coming and going.
我和他们不太亲近，因为他们总是来来去去。
But they are mostly nice.
但他们大多都很友善。
I meet many Ones and Fives, some Tens, a few Twenties.
我遇到了许多一号和五号，一些十号，一些二十号。
One time, I meet Hundred.
有一次，我遇见了百。
He stayed for a long time.
他呆了很长时间。
Came from birthday card, he said.
来自生日贺卡，他说。
Birthday card from an old person.
一位老人的生日贺卡。
I also meet photograph of girl human, very beautiful, eyes like Swimming Pool Access Card.
我还见过一张人类女孩的照片，非常漂亮，眼睛就像游泳池的通行卡。
Blue, blue, blue.
蓝色，蓝色，蓝色。
When I first get to wallet, I am "new guy." But time passes.
当我第一次接触钱包时，我是“新人”。但时间流逝。
I stay for so long, I become veteran.
我呆了这么久，我已经成为老手了。
When I first arrive, Jamba Juice has just two stamps.
当我第一次到达时，Jamba Juice 只有两张邮票。
Next thing I know, he has fives stamps-- then six, then seven.
接下来我知道，他有五枚邮票——然后六枚，然后七枚。
When he gets 10 stamps, he is gone.
当他得到 10 个邮票时，他就走了。
One day, Provisional Driver's License disappears.
有一天，临时驾驶执照消失了。
In his place, there is new guy, Regular Driver's License.
取而代之的是一个新人，普通驾驶执照。
I become worried.
我变得担心。
Things are changing very fast.
事情变化得很快。
Soon after, I am taken out of wallet.
不久之后，我就被从钱包里拿出来了。
It is night.
现在是晚上。
I am scared.
我很害怕。
I do not know what is happening.
我不知道发生了什么事。
Then I see girl human.
然后我看到了人类女孩。
She is one from photograph.
从照片上看，她就是其中之一。
She looks same in real life, except now she wears no shirt.
她在现实生活中看起来和现实生活中的一样，只是现在她没有穿衬衫。
She is smiling, but when she sees me, she becomes angry.
她在微笑，但当她看到我时，她变得生气了。
There is arguing.
有争论。
I go back inside wallet.
我回到钱包里。
A few days later, picture of girl human is gone.
几天后，人类少女的照片不见了。
That summer, I meet two new friends.
那年夏天，我认识了两个新朋友。
The first is Student ID New York University Jordi Hirschfeld.
第一个是纽约大学学生证 Jordi Hirschfeld。
The second is.
第二个是。
MetroCard.
地铁卡。
MetroCard is from New York City and he never lets you forget it.
MetroCard 来自纽约市，他永远不会让您忘记它。
He has real "attitude." He is yellow and black, with Cirque du Soleil advertisement on back.
他有真正的“态度”。他是黄黑相间的，背面印有太阳马戏团的广告。
When MetroCard meets GameStop PowerUp Card Jordi Hirschfeld, he looks at me and says, no wonder Jordi Hirschfeld not yet use you.
当 MetroCard 遇到 GameStop PowerUp Card Jordi Hirschfeld 时，他看着我说，难怪 Jordi Hirschfeld 还没有使用你。
I become confused.
我变得很困惑。
Use me for what?
用我来做什么？
That night, MetroCard tells me many strange things about myself.
那天晚上，MetroCard 告诉了我很多关于我自己的奇怪的事情。
At first, I do not believe what he says.
起初，我不相信他说的话。
But he insists all is true.
但他坚称一切都是真的。
When I start to panic, he laughs.
当我开始惊慌时，他笑了。
He says, what did you think you were for?
他说，你以为你是来干嘛的？
I am too embarrassed to admit truth, which is that I thought I was balloon.
我不好意思承认事实，那就是我以为自己是气球。
It is around this time that we move.
大约在这个时候我们搬家了。
For more than two years, we had lived inside Velcro Batman.
两年多来，我们一直住在魔术贴蝙蝠侠里面。
It is nice, comfy.
很好，很舒服。
One day, though, without warning, we are inside stiff brown leather.
然而有一天，毫无征兆地，我们走进了坚硬的棕色皮革里。
I am very upset-- especially when I see that so many friends are gone.
我非常难过——尤其是当我看到这么多朋友都走了时。
No more GameStop PowerUp Card Jordi Hirschfeld.
不再有 GameStop PowerUp 卡 Jordi Hirschfeld。
No more Swimming Pool Access Card Jordi Herschfeld.
不再需要游泳池使用卡 Jordi Herschfeld。
No more Scarsdale Comic Book Explosion Discount Card.
不再有斯卡斯代尔漫画书爆炸折扣卡。
Only survivors are MetroCard, Driver License, Student ID, myself, and a creepy new lady named Visa.
唯一的幸存者是地铁卡、驾照、学生证、我自己，以及一位名叫 Visa 的令人毛骨悚然的新女士。
I am angry.
我很愤怒。
What was wrong with Velcro Batman?
维可牢尼龙搭扣蝙蝠侠出了什么问题？
It had many pockets and was warm.
它有很多口袋，而且很暖和。
A few days later, I meet Film Forum Membership Jordan Hirschfeld.
几天后，我遇到了电影论坛会员乔丹·赫希菲尔德 (Jordan Hirschfeld)。
At this point, I am in "panic mode." What is "Film Forum"?
此时，我处于“恐慌模式”。什么是“电影论坛”？
Who is "Jordan Hirschfeld"?
“乔丹·赫希菲尔德”是谁？
Jordan Hirschfeld is same guy as Jordi Hirschfeld, MetroCard explains.
MetroCard 解释说，乔丹·赫希菲尔德 (Jordan Hirschfeld) 与乔迪·赫希菲尔德 (Jordi Hirschfeld) 是同一个人。
He is just trying to "change his image." I am confused.
他只是想“改变自己的形象”。我很困惑。
What is wrong with old image?
旧图像有什么问题？
That night, I poke my head out of wallet and look around pocket.
那天晚上，我从钱包里探出头，看看口袋里的情况。
It is dark, but I can see we have new neighbor.
天很黑，但我可以看到我们有新邻居。
He says his name is Cigarettes Gauloises.
他说他的名字是高卢香烟。
He is very polite, but I get weird vibe from him.
他很有礼貌，但我从他身上感受到了一种奇怪的感觉。
It is about this time that I meet strip of notebook paper.
大约在这个时候，我遇到了一条笔记本纸。
On him is written [email protected] .
他的身上写着[email protected]。
Now we're getting somewhere, MetroCard says.
MetroCard 表示，现在我们已经有所进展。
I have never been more frightened in my life.
我一生中从未如此害怕过。
That Saturday, five crisp Twenties show up.
那个星期六，五个清爽的二十岁的人出现了。
I assume they will stay long time, like most Twenties.
我想他们会呆很长时间，就像大多数二十多岁的人一样。
But two hours later, they are gone, replaced by receipt La Cucina.
但两小时后，它们就不见了，取而代之的是 La Cucina 收据。
MetroCard looks at receipt La Cucina and laughs.
MetroCard 看着收据 La Cucina 笑了。
She better put out after that, he says.
他说，她最好在那之后就出去。
I am confused and worried.
我很困惑，也很担心。
Later on, I am minding my own business, when Jordi-- sorry, "Jordan" shoves his finger into me.
后来，当我专注于自己的事情时，乔丹——对不起，“乔丹”把他的手指伸到了我身上。
I am terrified.
我很害怕。
What was that?
那是什么？
I ask.
我问。
MetroCard grins.
地铁卡笑了。
He is checking to make sure you're there, he says.
他说，他正在检查以确保你在场。
For later.
供以后使用。
My friends try to calm me down.
我的朋友们试图让我平静下来。
One of the dollars, a One, tells me about the time he met Vending Machine Pepsi.
其中一美元，一美元，告诉我他遇到自动售货机百事可乐的经历。
He was stuffed in and out, in and out, so many times he almost died.
他被塞进塞出，进进出出，好多次都差点死掉。
I know he is trying to make me feel better, but I am like, please stop talking about that.
我知道他想让我感觉好一点，但我想，请停止谈论这个。
Eventually, the moment comes.
最终，这一刻到来了。
It is like other time.
就像其他时间一样。
I am taken out of wallet and tossed on bed.
我被从钱包里拿出来扔到床上。
It is very dark.
天很黑。
I can make out shape of girl.
我能看出女孩的形状。
She picks me up and squints at me for a while.
她把我抱起来，眯着眼睛看了我一会儿。
Then she turns on lamp.
然后她打开灯。
I am confused.
我很困惑。
So is Jordan Hirschfeld.
乔丹·赫希菲尔德也是如此。
"What's wrong?" he asks.
“怎么了？”他问道。
His face is like Jamba Juice Value Card.
他的脸就像Jamba Juice Value Card。
Red, red, red.
红，红，红。
"I think," she says, "that this might actually be expired."
“我认为，”她说，“这实际上可能已经过期了。”
There is long silence.
长久的沉默。
And then, all of a sudden, the humans are laughing!
然后，突然间，人类大笑起来！
And then the girl is hitting Jordan with pillow!
然后女孩就用枕头打乔丹！
And he is hitting her back with pillow!
他还用枕头打她的背！
And they are laughing, laughing, laughing.
他们在笑，笑，笑。
The girl reaches into her bag.
女孩把手伸进包里。
"Don't worry," she says.
“别担心，”她说。
"I've got one."
“我有一个。”
Part of me kind of wants to watch what happens next, but I'm quickly covered in pile of clothes.
我内心有些想看看接下来会发生什么，但我很快就被一堆衣服盖住了。
When I wake up the next day, Jordan is dangling me over trash can.
第二天我醒来时，乔丹把我吊在垃圾桶上。
I look down into pit.
我往下看坑。
Inside are Cigarettes Gauloises and Film Forum Schedule.
里面有高卢香烟和电影论坛时间表。
They are talking "philosophy." I sigh.
他们在谈论“哲学”。我叹了口气。
I do not really want to move in with them, but what can I do?
我并不是真的想搬去和他们一起住，但我能做什么呢？
I figure this is "end of the line" for me.
我认为这对我来说是“终点”。
Suddenly, though, Jordan carries me away-- to other side of room.
然而突然间，乔丹把我带到了房间的另一边。
I am placed inside shoebox under his bed.
我被放在他床下的鞋盒里。
At first, I am afraid because it is dark, but as vision adjusts, I see I am not alone.
起初，我很害怕，因为天很黑，但随着视力的调整，我发现我并不孤单。
There is strip of notebook paper [email protected] .
有一条笔记本纸[电子邮件受保护]。
There is receipt La Cucina, on which is now written, "First Date." I spend long, long time in shoebox.
有一张 La Cucina 收据，上面写着“第一次约会”。我在鞋盒里呆了很长很长的时间。
When I arrive, I am new guy.
当我到达时，我是新人。
But as time passes, I become veteran.
但随着时间的推移，我已经成为老手了。
I welcome many new friends-- Birthday card Rachel.
我欢迎许多新朋友——生日贺卡雷切尔。
Happy Valentine's Day Rachel.
情人节快乐，雷切尔。
And many, many Post-it notes Rachel.
还有很多很多便利贴，雷切尔。
Good morning, Jordi!
早上好，乔迪！
Rachel.
雷切尔。
I love you, Jordi.
我爱你，乔迪。
Rachel.
雷切尔。
Everything in here is Rachel.
这里的一切都是雷切尔。
I do not know how things are in wallet these days, but I'm glad to be in shoebox.
我不知道这些天钱包里的东西怎么样，但我很高兴能在鞋盒里。
I feel as if I have "made it." I am happy.
我感觉好像我已经“成功了”。我很高兴。
I am warm.
我很温暖。
I am safe.
我很安全。
This story came to us from Simon Rich, a frequent contributor to The New Yorker .
这个故事来自西蒙·里奇（Simon Rich），他是《纽约客》的经常撰稿人。
It can be found in his collection Man Seeking Woman .
这可以在他的作品集《Man Seeking Woman》中找到。
[MUSIC - "I'VE GOT FIVE DOLLARS AND IT'S SATURDAY NIGHT" BY FARON YOUNG]
[音乐 - FARON YOUNG 的《我有五美元，今天是星期六晚上》]
Our program was produced today by Karen Duffin and Chana Joffe-Walt.
今天我们的节目由 Karen Duffin 和 Chana Joffe-Walt 制作。
Our production staff, Sean Cole, Emmanuel Dzotsi, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lyra Smith, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
我们的制作人员包括 Sean Cole、Emmanuel Dzotsi、Neil Drumming、Stephanie Foo、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lyra Smith、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike。
Other important people here, Elise Bergerson, Emily Condon, Kimberly Henderson, Seth Lind, and Julie Whitacre.
这里的其他重要人物包括埃莉斯·伯格森、艾米丽·康登、金伯利·亨德森、塞斯·林德和朱莉·惠特克。
Research help from Christopher Swetala.
克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉 (Christopher Swetala) 提供研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to my boss, Ira Glass.
一如既往地感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
He's been gone all week.
他已经走了一周了。
We did get one message from him.
我们确实收到了他的一条消息。
Things are just great.
事情真是太棒了。
Things are really great.
事情真的很棒。
Things are really great.
事情真的很棒。
Things are really going good.
事情真的进展顺利。
I'm Zoe Chace.
我是佐伊·切斯。
Ira's back next week with more stories of This American Life .
艾拉下周将带着更多《美国生活》的故事回来。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。