589: Tell Me I’m Fat - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #589 | April 12, 2019 589: Tell Me I’m Fat Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 589 集 | 2019 年 4 月 12 日 589：告诉我我胖 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass How old were you when you first came out?
序言 Ira Glass 你第一次出柜时几岁？
[LAUGHS] That's weird to say it like that.
[笑]这样说很奇怪。
I know.
我知道。
Lindy West I can't really talk about it.
Lindy West 我真的不能谈论它。
Yeah, why is that weird?
是啊，为什么这么奇怪呢？
It does seem weird to me too.
我也觉得很奇怪。
Well, because it feels-- to me, it feels--
嗯，因为它感觉——对我来说，感觉——
OK, here's something that I just heard about, though I guess it's been out there for a little while now.
好吧，这是我刚刚听说的事情，尽管我猜它已经存在了一段时间了。
It's the idea that fat people would come out to their friends and family as fat.
人们认为，胖子会向他们的朋友和家人公开自己是胖子。
Like, they would decide, OK, today's the day, going to say it out loud to people, I'm fat.
就像，他们会决定，好吧，今天就是向人们大声说出来的一天，我很胖。
I heard about this from Lindy West.
我从林迪·韦斯特那里听说了这件事。
She's a writer who's been on our program before.
她是一位作家，以前参加过我们的节目。
Maybe you remember her story about confronting an internet troll.
也许您还记得她对抗互联网巨魔的故事。
Coming out as fat is a strange idea, because, of course, people can see if you're fat.
公开自己的胖子是一个奇怪的想法，因为人们当然可以看出你是否胖。
It's no secret.
这不是什么秘密。
It's not like when you come out as gay or transgender.
这不像你出柜时是同性恋或跨性别者。
Nobody says to you, dude, I can't believe you're fat.
没有人对你说，伙计，我不敢相信你这么胖。
Lindy says it was obvious how big she was.
林迪说，很明显她有多大。
But I always felt like if I didn't mention it that maybe people wouldn't notice.
但我总觉得如果我不提，也许人们不会注意到。
Or it could just be this sort of polite secret, like, open secret that we didn't address, because it felt so shameful.
或者这可能只是一种礼貌的秘密，比如我们没有提及的公开秘密，因为这感觉太可耻了。
It just felt impolite to talk about, like me not wanting to burden you with my failure.
只是觉得谈论起来很不礼貌，就像我不想让我的失败给你带来负担一样。
Like, I'm not going to bother you with this.
就像，我不会用这个来打扰你。
Yeah, and just give me a little more time.
是的，再给我一点时间。
Let's not talk about it, and I promise I'll fix it.
我们不要谈论它，我保证我会解决它。
That's key, she says.
这是关键，她说。
As long as you're a fat person who's trying not to be fat, that's acceptable.
只要你是一个努力不胖的胖子，那就可以接受。
That's a good fat person.
这真是一个好胖子啊。
You don't totally admit to yourself you're fat, because, well--
你并不完全承认自己很胖，因为，嗯——
The way that we are taught to think about fatness is that fat is not a permanent state.
我们被教导思考肥胖的方式是，脂肪不是一种永久状态。
You're just a thin person who's failing consistently for your whole life.
你只是一个瘦弱的人，一生都在失败。
[LAUGHTER] So to actually say, OK, I am fat-- and I have been as long as I can remember, so I don't know why I live in this imaginary future where I, you know, someday I'm going to be thin.
[笑声] 所以实际上可以说，好吧，我很胖——从我记事起我就一直很胖，所以我不知道为什么我生活在这个想象中的未来，你知道，有一天我会变瘦。
So before you declared to others, OK, I'm fat, how did you see yourself?
那么在你向别人宣称“好吧，我胖了”之前，你是怎么看待自己的呢？
Did you see yourself as fat?
你有没有觉得自己很胖？
Did you conceive of yourself as fat?
你认为自己很胖吗？
Yeah, but I was determined to not be fat forever.
是的，但我决心永远不再胖。
And my worst fear was, what if I am?
我最担心的是，如果我是怎么办？
And then at some point, I just was like, you know, it's fairly likely that I'm going to be fat forever.
然后在某个时候，我就想，你知道，我很可能会永远胖下去。
So why am I putting off figuring out how to live with that?
那么我为什么要推迟弄清楚如何忍受这一点呢？
I should, rather than spending all my time counting almonds, why not try to figure out how to be happy now?
我应该，与其把所有的时间都花在数杏仁上，为什么不现在就试着找出如何快乐呢？
Which means saying to everybody, let's just decide together that, like most fat people, I'll probably always be this way.
这意味着对每个人说，让我们一起决定，像大多数胖子一样，我可能会永远这样。
This is who I am, which-- right now, anyway-- is so rare, it feels like a radical act.
这就是我，无论如何，现在这样的我是如此罕见，感觉就像是一种激进的行为。
I'm fat.
我很胖。
Ira Glass It's so weird to actually hear you say I'm fat.
Ira Glass：听到你说我胖真是太奇怪了。
I actually heard you say that.
我确实听到你这么说。
I don't think I've ever actually heard somebody just say those words except in a much smaller context, like somebody puts on a dress and it's like, oh, I'm fat.
我想我从来没有真正听过有人说过这些话，除非是在更小的背景下，比如有人穿上衣服，然后说，哦，我胖了。
But they don't mean, this is who I am.
但他们并不意味着，这就是我。
Yeah, and it's usually thin people who say that.
是的，通常都是瘦子才会这么说。
Yeah.
是的。
When you come out as gay, most people accept it, because they know you can't do anything about that.
当你公开自己的同性恋身份时，大多数人都会接受，因为他们知道你对此无能为力。
That's who you are.
这就是你。
You can't change it.
你无法改变它。
But coming out as fat, doctors and your family and kind of the entire culture is organized to point out how wrong-headed you are.
但是，当你公开自己的肥胖身份时，医生、你的家人以及整个文化都会组织起来指出你的想法是多么错误。
When you're over a certain size-- it's been explained to me by a few people now-- complete strangers walk up to you on the street and tell you to lose weight.
当你超过一定尺寸时——现在有几个人向我解释过——完全陌生的人会在街上走到你面前并告诉你减肥。
They shoot you dirty looks when they see ice cream in your shopping cart.
当他们看到你购物车里的冰淇淋时，他们会向你投来鄙视的目光。
They talk down to you like you're stupid about nutrition and calories, as if pretty much every fat person has not been around the block 500 times on that one already.
他们居高临下地对你说话，就像你在营养和卡路里问题上很愚蠢一样，就好像几乎每个胖子都没有在这个问题上绕街 500 次一样。
That's why deciding to stay fat and be OK with it is at a peculiar frontier right now, where things are shifting and people do not agree about what is acceptable to say and think.
这就是为什么决定保持肥胖并接受它现在处于一个特殊的前沿，事情正在发生变化，人们对于什么是可以接受的言论和想法并没有达成一致。
I was talking to Lindy.
我正在和林迪说话。
I used the word "overweight" a few times.
我多次使用过“超重”这个词。
And at some point, she stopped me and said, the word "overweight" is not preferred.
有一次，她拦住我说，“超重”这个词不是首选。
She wasn't strident about this.
她对此并不强硬。
It was super friendly.
这是超级友好的。
She said the problem with "overweight" is that it implies that there is a correct weight for people.
她说，“超重”的问题在于它暗示着人们有一个正确的体重。
That's how radical this is.
这就是多么激进。
It's saying that no weight is better than any other weight, which, given the health risks associated with greater weight that Lindy acknowledges, it can be hard to get your head around.
据说没有任何体重比任何其他体重更好，考虑到林迪承认的与体重增加相关的健康风险，你可能很难理解这一点。
And we're doing this show today because I read the book that Lindy just published about this.
我们今天做这个节目是因为我读了林迪刚刚出版的关于这个的书。
And it made me see this whole thing differently.
这让我对整件事有了不同的看法。
And so what we're going to do today is we're going to present some excerpts from her book.
所以我们今天要做的是展示她书中的一些摘录。
Her book's called Shrill.
她的书叫《尖叫》。
And we're going to hear from people who definitely do not feel the same way that Lindy does about all this.
我们将会听到一些人的意见，他们对这一切的看法肯定与林迪不同。
For WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
对于 WBEZ 芝加哥来说，就是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, The Day the Scales Fell from Her Eyes.
第一幕，鳞片从她眼睛上掉下来的那一天。
So Lindy West is very much a fat person with a before picture and an after picture.
所以林迪·韦斯特是一个非常胖的人，有一张之前的照片和一张之后的照片。
In both pictures, she's fat.
在这两张照片中，她都很胖。
In the after picture, she is outspoken and happy.
在后面的照片中，她直言不讳，心情愉快。
In the before picture, she is painfully shy and not as happy.
在之前的照片中，她非常害羞，而且没有那么高兴。
She says, as a fat teenager, she felt like a monster.
她说，作为一个肥胖的青少年，她感觉自己像个怪物。
Cool clothes did not seem to exist for her.
凉爽的衣服对她来说似乎不存在。
In her 20s, fat made her world smaller.
20多岁的时候，肥胖让她的世界变小了。
She'd stay home when friends went hiking, biking, sailing.
当朋友们去远足、骑自行车、航海时，她会呆在家里。
She'd cancel plans to avoid restaurants whose tables were so close together she couldn't navigate through them.
她取消了计划，以避免去那些桌子靠得太近而无法浏览的餐厅。
And then not to mention the fact that you're knocking stuff over.
更不用说你把东西打翻了。
You know, just moving through the world as a big person is hard.
你知道，作为一个大人物在这个世界上行走是很困难的。
I take up a lot of space.
我占用了很多空间。
It's undeniable.
这是不可否认的。
It's awkward and embarrassing.
真是尴尬又尴尬。
And I'm just constantly knocking stuff over with my butt, you know?
我只是经常用屁股撞倒东西，你知道吗？
She describes being fat as simultaneously being way too visible and being invisible-- not wanting people looking at her, noticing her, noticing what she eats.
她将肥胖描述为同时太明显和不可见——不希望人们看着她，注意到她，注意到她吃的东西。
She worried-- and she worries still, all the time-- about destroying chairs by sitting on them.
她担心——而且她仍然担心，一直担心——坐在椅子上会损坏它们。
[SIGH] Chairs.
[叹息]椅子。
Ira Glass You catch that?
艾拉·格拉斯 你明白了吗？
Until this interview, it never occurred to me that a human being could sigh that way over chairs.
直到这次采访之前，我从来没有想到一个人可以在椅子上这样叹息。
[SIGH] Chairs.
[叹息]椅子。
Ira Glass For the record, she says she's only destroyed one chair.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 根据记录，她说她只毁坏了一把椅子。
It was at a friend's comedy show.
那是在朋友的喜剧表演上。
You know, packed, sold-out theater.
你知道，剧院座无虚席，门票全部售空。
And I'm sitting on the stage.
而我正坐在舞台上。
And then, of course, the chair made a horrible, loud cracking noise, like, five minutes into the show.
然后，当然，椅子发出了可怕的、响亮的破裂声，就像演出开始五分钟一样。
And I was already on high alert for the chair.
我已经对椅子保持高度警惕。
So I managed to sort of leap into a crouch.
所以我设法蹲了下来。
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass As if trained for it.
[笑声] Ira Glass 好像受过训练。
Exactly.
确切地。
It was like Mission Impossible .
这就像不可能的任务。
Because breaking a chair is a combination of so many horrible things.
因为打破椅子是许多可怕事情的结合。
It's like confirmation that you are giant, that furniture cannot withstand you.
这就像确认你是巨人，家具无法承受你。
So it's like falling down, making a scene--
所以这就像是摔倒了，大闹一场——
Yeah, I'm sure people in the audience-- I mean, well, a guy came running out with a chair.
是的，我确信观众中的人们——我的意思是，好吧，一个人拿着一把椅子跑了出来。
Then how do you go about the, like, OK, nothing to look at here, nothing--
那么你该怎么做呢，比如，好吧，这里没什么可看的，没什么——
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
Ira Glass Nothing's going on here.
艾拉·格拉斯：这里什么也没发生。
I think I just started nodding a lot to the comedy, like, ooh, yeah.
我想我刚刚开始对这部喜剧点头，就像，哦，是的。
But those things just make you stronger, Ira.
但这些事情只会让你变得更坚强，艾拉。
In fact, the question she's asked most often these days is, where do you get your confidence?
事实上，她这些天问得最多的问题是，你的自信从何而来？
Which is kind of a messed up question, because the subtext is, if I looked like you, I'd definitely throw myself into the sea.
这是一个有点混乱的问题，因为潜台词是，如果我长得像你，我肯定会跳海。
Fact is, though, it is a good question.
但事实是，这是一个好问题。
How she went from somebody who never wanted to be noticed as fat or at all, to somebody who tells her well-meaning friends that, yes, she wants them to call her fat, even though it makes them feel a little uncomfortable at first.
她是如何从一个从来不想被人注意到胖或根本不想被人注意到的人，变成一个告诉她善意的朋友，是的，她希望他们称她胖，尽管这让他们一开始感到有点不舒服。
She says it took years, involved many humiliations, things she realized.
她说这花了很多年的时间，经历了很多羞辱，她才意识到这一点。
But the biggest turning point-- the moment that she actually came out and said to everyone she knows that she's fat-- happened as the result of a fight she got into with her boss-- or, to be more precise, the boss of her boss.
但最大的转折点——她真正站出来对所有认识的人说自己胖的那一刻——是她与老板——或者更准确地说，是她老板的老板——争吵的结果。
She was working at a weekly newspaper, The Stranger , in Seattle.
她在西雅图的一家周刊《陌生人》工作。
She got into a fight with the paper's editorial director.
她与该报的编辑部主任发生了争执。
His name is Dan Savage.
他的名字叫丹·萨维奇。
And if you listen to our show a lot, you know him.
如果你经常听我们的节目，你就会认识他。
He's been on many, many times.
他已经上过很多很多次了。
I've also appeared on his podcast and Vice program, which I recommend wholeheartedly, the Savage Lovecast .
我还出现在他的播客和 Vice 节目中，我全心全意地推荐它，Savage Lovecast。
He's also written books.
他还写过书。
He appears on TV.
他出现在电视上。
Dan is friends with Lindy today and had no interest at all in coming on to the radio to revisit this fight that they had a couple years ago.
丹今天是林迪的朋友，他根本没有兴趣在广播中重温他们几年前的这场战斗。
Lindy writes about what happened between them in her book.
林迪在她的书中写下了他们之间发生的事情。
I asked her to read this part of her story for us here.
我请她在这里为我们朗读她故事的这一部分。
That's going to be the rest of this act.
这就是该行为的其余部分。
She says, "Dan was a great boss.
她说：“丹是一位伟大的老板。
But starting around 2004, 2005, he began writing sometimes about obesity." OK, here's Lindy reading.
但从 2004 年、2005 年左右开始，他有时开始撰写有关肥胖的文章。”好的，林迪正在读书。
My boss, Dan, was on something of an obesity epidemic kick.
我的老板丹正处于肥胖流行期。
He wasn't alone.
他并不孤单。
The rest of the nation had declared a war on obesity.
全国其他地区已向肥胖宣战。
They'd whipped up a host of reasons why it was right and good to hate fat people-- our repulsive, unsexy bodies, of course, the classic, but also our drain on the health care system, our hogging of plane armrests, our impact on "the children," our pathetic inability and/or monstrous refusal to swap austerity for gluttony, oh, and our health, because they care.
他们提出了很多理由来说明讨厌胖子是正确和好的——当然，我们的身体令人厌恶、不性感，这是经典，但也包括我们对医疗保健系统的消耗、我们对飞机扶手的霸占、我们对“孩子”的影响、我们可悲的无能和/或可怕地拒绝将紧缩换成暴饮暴食，哦，还有我们的健康，因为他们关心。
Dan was on that train, and I don't blame him.
丹在那趟火车上，我不怪他。
It was a very popular and, I imagine, gratifying ticket at the time.
在当时，这是一张非常受欢迎的门票，我想，也是令人满意的。
And even more so than today, it was considered very roguish to tell it like it is about fat people.
甚至比今天更是如此，把它当作关于胖子的故事被认为是非常无赖的。
Dan's main sticking point seemed to be fat people like me who insisted we weren't imminently dying.
丹的主要症结似乎是像我这样的胖子坚持认为我们不会很快死去。
He fiercely and persistently defended his, quote, "refusal to take the self-esteem-boosting/public-health-shredding position that you can be obese and healthy.
他强烈而坚持不懈地为自己的言论辩护，“拒绝采取既可以肥胖又健康的增强自尊/破坏公共健康的立场。
More than anything, this passage from his 2005 book, The Commitment , sums up the overall tone of his stance at the time on fatties.
最重要的是，他 2005 年出版的著作《承诺》中的这段话概括了他当时对肥胖的立场的总体基调。
Here's the quote.
这是引用。
"Two days later, in a water park in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, I came to a couple of realizations.
“两天后，在南达科他州苏福尔斯的一个水上公园，我有了一些认识。
First, anyone who denies the existence of the obesity epidemic in the United States hasn't been to a water park in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
首先，任何否认美国存在肥胖流行病的人都没有去过南达科他州苏福尔斯的水上乐园。
The owners of water parks in the US must be saving a fortune on water and chlorine bills.
美国水上乐园的业主肯定在水费和氯费上节省了一大笔钱。
Floating in the deep end of the wave pool with DJ, Terry observed that there was an awful lot of water being displaced.
特里与 DJ 一起漂浮在波浪池的深处，观察到有大量的水被排出。
If the South Dakotans floating around us all got out of the pool at the same time, the water level would most likely have dropped 6 feet."
如果我们周围漂浮的南达科塔人同时离开泳池，水位很可能会下降 6 英尺。”
That's what Dan wrote.
这就是丹所写的。
In other words, we're horrible to look at.
换句话说，我们看起来很糟糕。
We're in the way.
我们挡道了。
We're a joke.
我们就是个笑话。
I could probably have dealt with that.
我也许可以处理这个问题。
But I started to get comments here and there from readers asking how it felt to know that my boss hated me because of my body.
但我开始到处收到读者的评论，询问我的老板因为我的身体而讨厌我，感觉如何。
I knew Dan didn't hate me.
我知道丹并不恨我。
But why didn't he see that when he wrote about fat people he was writing about me, Lindy West, his colleague and friend?
但为什么他没有意识到，当他写胖子时，他写的是我，林迪·韦斯特，他的同事和朋友？
And why should I, as an employee, have to swallow that kind of treatment at my job, in the same newspaper I was sweating blood into for 36K a year?
作为一名员工，我为什么要在工作中忍受这种待遇，在同一份报纸上，我每年为 36K 付出汗水？
Did I want to be the kind of person who didn't fight?
我想成为那种不打架的人吗？
OK, so I'm going to jump in here.
好的，我要跳到这里了。
Lindy decided to take a stand.
林迪决定表明立场。
And she did as a culmination of a bunch of experiences and changes in the way that she thought about being fat.
她的这一举动是一系列经历和她对肥胖的看法改变的结果。
And I talked to her about this in our interview.
我在采访中与她谈到了这一点。
One of the big things was, she saw these photos taken by the actor Leonard Nimoy, the guy who played Mr. Spock on Star Trek .
其中一件大事是，她看到了演员伦纳德·尼莫伊（Leonard Nimoy）拍摄的这些照片，他是《星际迷航》中斯波克先生的扮演者。
Late in his life, he did a series of these gorgeous black-and-white photos called The Full Body Project , where he photographed fat women naked.
在他生命的晚期，他拍摄了一系列华丽的黑白照片，名为《全身项目》，其中他拍摄了肥胖女性的裸体。
And they're presented as objects of beauty.
它们被视为美丽的物体。
They're art photos.
它们是艺术照片。
And I just had never seen that before ever in my life.
我一生中从未见过这种情况。
It had never occurred to me that you would do anything with a fat body other than hide it.
我从来没有想过除了隐藏它之外，你还会用肥胖的身体做任何事。
And the women in these photographs were so proud and just full of life.
这些照片中的女性是如此自豪，充满活力。
And it really had an impact on me.
这确实对我产生了影响。
I mean, at first, I was really uncomfortable.
我的意思是，一开始我真的很不舒服。
Uncomfortable, like, oh, no, don't show that.
不舒服，就像，哦，不，不要表现出来。
That's secret!
这是秘密！
Lindy West You guys, I've been working really hard on not showing this to people.
Lindy West 你们，我一直在努力不向人们展示这个。
From there, she started searching the internet with the intensity, she says, of a teenager looking for porn, only she was looking for sites where they posted images of fat people.
从那时起，她开始在互联网上进行搜索，她说，就像一个青少年寻找色情内容一样，只是她在寻找发布胖子图片的网站。
There's a bunch of Tumblrs along these lines.
有很多这样的 Tumblrs。
Some are basically just fashion blogs for fat people.
有些基本上只是胖子的时尚博客。
Finding decent clothes is an issue if you're really big.
如果你真的很大的话，找到像样的衣服是一个问题。
There's a Tumblr called, "hey, fat chick!"
有一个 Tumblr 叫“嘿，胖妞！”
I mean, this was just my favorite one of these fat acceptance blogs.
我的意思是，这只是我最喜欢的脂肪接受博客之一。
It was just that.
就是这样。
It was just bright, happy, funny, smiling people wearing cute outfits.
人们穿着可爱的衣服，聪明、快乐、有趣、微笑。
It's just, you're so used to seeing fat people presented as sad and apologetic.
只是，你太习惯看到胖子表现得悲伤和歉意了。
And what did this do to you?
这对你有什么影响？
What it do to see that?
看到这个要做什么？
I remember feeling like my brain was changing shape.
我记得感觉我的大脑正在改变形状。
It just had never occurred to me that you could just decide that you were allowed to be happy and live as a--
我只是从来没有想过你可以决定让你快乐并像一个——
As a fat person.
作为一个胖子。
Lindy West Yeah, exactly.
林迪·韦斯特 是的，没错。
And did this change the way that you saw fat people?
这是否改变了你看待胖子的方式？
Yeah, I mean, I can't even explain how strange it was, because it was like-- it wasn't just conceptual, like, oh, I deserve to be happy.
是的，我的意思是，我什至无法解释它有多么奇怪，因为它就像——这不仅仅是概念性的，就像，哦，我应该感到高兴。
It was like I was looking at specific parts of their bodies and staring at them-- parts of their bodies that I had always just reviled on myself.
就好像我在看着他们身体的特定部位，盯着他们——我一直在咒骂自己的那部分身体。
Like, what do you mean?
比如，你什么意思？
Lindy West You know, like fat rolls and arm fat and bellies and staring at them and saying, OK, what if I found that objectively beautiful?
林迪·韦斯特（Lindy West）你知道，就像胖卷、手臂脂肪和腹部，盯着它们说，好吧，如果我发现客观上很漂亮怎么办？
What if I decided that's beautiful?
如果我认为那很漂亮怎么办？
And then does that work?
那么这有效吗？
Lindy West Yes, it does.
林迪·韦斯特 是的，确实如此。
At least, it worked for me.
至少，它对我有用。
Yeah, really.
是的，真的。
Really, genuinely.
真的，真心的。
And it felt like some sort of sorcery.
这感觉就像某种巫术。
Like, at the time, I was like, how is this possible?
就像，当时我就想，这怎么可能？
Lindy says in her book, "Want to change the way you see fat people?
林迪在她的书中说：“想改变你看待胖子的方式吗？
Try it." So that stuff is rewiring her brain, and she's thinking about it a lot.
尝试一下。”所以这些东西正在重新连接她的大脑，她对此思考了很多。
And to get back to our story, her boss is saying these demeaning things about fat people.
回到我们的故事，她的老板正在说这些关于胖子的贬低的话。
And she decides, enough.
她决定，够了。
OK, back to her reading.
好吧，回到她的阅读。
And I'll just say we have unbeeped some words here on the internet version of our show.
我只想说，我们在节目的网络版本中取消了一些文字。
If you preferred a beeped version, there's one on our website.
如果您喜欢有蜂鸣声的版本，我们的网站上有一个。
Something lurched awake inside of me.
我内心有什么东西突然苏醒了。
A lifetime of being talked down to about nutrition, being kept secret by men I was dating, being both invisible and too visible finally foamed up and spilled over.
一生中关于营养的话题被贬低，被我约会的男人保守秘密，既不可见又过于明显，最后终于泡沫化了。
I emailed Dan privately in November of 2009.
2009 年 11 月，我私下给 Dan 发了电子邮件。
In my memory, I asked him to please, please consider his words more carefully before writing about fat people, to remember that we're human beings with complex lives, not disease vectors or animals.
在我的记忆中，我请他在写关于胖子的文章之前，请仔细考虑一下他的话，记住我们是生活复杂的人，而不是疾病传播者或动物。
I was timid, pleading.
我胆怯地恳求着。
Or at least, that's how I remember it.
或者至少，我是这样记得的。
While writing about all this, I looked up the original exchange.
在写下这一切的同时，我查阅了最初的交流。
And it turns out that my memory sucks.
事实证明我的记忆力很糟糕。
Here's the actual email that I sent to my actual boss.
这是我发送给我的实际老板的实际电子邮件。
"To Dan Savage.
“致丹·萨维奇。
Subject-- hello, could you lay off the fat people shit?
主题——你好，你能不能别再胖了？
Just curious.
只是好奇。
Who are these hordes of fat people chasing you around, insisting that eating pot pies all day is awesome and good for your health?
这些成群结队的胖子是谁追着你跑，坚持说整天吃馅饼很棒，对你的健康有好处？
Because, um, I don't believe you.
因为，嗯，我不相信你。
That sounds like a strawman.
这听起来就像一个稻草人。
And I know some of your best friends are fat or whatever, but you sound like a bigot.
我知道你的一些最好的朋友很胖或者其他什么，但你听起来像个偏执狂。
Also, your super fucking obvious and regressive point has been made.
另外，你他妈的非常明显的倒退观点已经被提出了。
Everyone in the world already thinks fat people are lazy and gross."
世界上每个人都认为胖子是懒惰和粗俗的。”
Then I went all caps.
然后我全部大写。
"WE GET IT!
“我们明白了！
YOU ARE NOT BREAKING NEW GROUND HERE!" Back to regular case.
你并没有在这里开辟新天地！”回到常规案例。
"Being fat is its own punishment.
“肥胖本身就是一种惩罚。
I don't give a shit if you think I lie on the couch all day under the Dorito funnel.
如果你认为我整天躺在多力多力多力多滋漏斗下的沙发上，我才不在乎。
I'd just rather not be abused on the internet from inside my own workplace.
我只是不想在自己的工作场所内受到互联网上的虐待。
Just a thought.
只是一个想法。
Love, Lindy."
爱你，林迪。”
Dan's reply was nine words long.
丹的答复有九个字长。
He asked simply if I'd ever detected any animus from him personally.
他只是简单地问我是否曾察觉到他对我个人有任何敌意。
"Nope, not at all," I wrote.
“不，一点也不，”我写道。
"Not my point at all either." He said he heard me, but I was accusing him of being a bigot-- a serious charge against someone exhibiting, by my admission, no animus.
“也根本不是我的观点。”他说他听到了我的声音，但我指责他是个偏执狂——我承认，这是对一个没有表现出任何敌意的人的严重指控。
It was a dodge.
这是一种躲闪。
He was deliberately missing the point.
他故意忽略了重点。
We never talked about it in the office.
我们从未在办公室谈论过这件事。
For the next year, he went back to posting semi-regularly about the horrors of the obesity epidemic with no discernible interruption.
接下来的一年，他又开始半定期地发布有关肥胖流行病的可怕内容，没有明显的中断。
And I went back to ignoring him.
然后我又恢复了无视他的状态。
Then Dan wrote a blog post entitled "Ban Fat Marriage." He was responding to some Republicans' argument that gay marriage should be illegal because gay people supposedly die younger.
然后丹写了一篇题为“禁止肥胖婚姻”的博客文章。他是在回应一些共和党人的论点，即同性婚姻应该是非法的，因为据称同性恋者会更早死去。
Here's Dan.
这是丹。
Quote, "Why stop with gay people?
引用：“为什么要停止与同性恋者相处？
Iowa should ban fat marriage.
爱荷华州应该禁止肥胖婚姻。
There are, according to the state of Iowa, more than 1.4 million obese people living in Iowa.
据爱荷华州统计，爱荷华州有超过 140 万肥胖者。
The social costs of Iowa's obesity epidemic are pretty staggering.
爱荷华州肥胖流行的社会成本相当惊人。
And those costs include premature death and lower average life expectancies for Iowans."
这些成本包括爱荷华州人的过早死亡和平均预期寿命的降低。”
In response, I threw up a quick blog post.
作为回应，我发表了一篇简短的博客文章。
"Hey, Dan.
“嘿，丹。
So now that you're equating the stigmatization of fat people with the stigmatization of gay people, does that mean you're going to stop stigmatizing fat people on this blog?" Nothing.
那么既然你将胖子的污名化与同性恋者的污名化等同起来，这是否意味着你将停止在这个博客上污蔑胖子？”什么也没有。
I waited a few days.
我等了几天。
Nothing.
什么也没有。
I looked back over our old email exchange.
我回顾了我们以前的电子邮件往来。
My private confrontation with Dan had gotten me nowhere.
我与丹的私下对抗毫无结果。
Taking a quick, vague swipe at him on the blog had gotten me nowhere.
在博客上快速、含糊地攻击他并没有得到什么结果。
So I did what honestly I thought Dan Savage would do, what he'd taught me to do over my years at the paper.
所以我老实说，做了我认为丹·萨维奇会做的事，也是他多年来在报社教我做的事。
On February 11, 2011, I wrote a scorched-earth essay and posted it publicly at the tail end of a sunny Friday afternoon.
2011年2月11日，我写了一篇焦土文章，并在一个阳光明媚的周五下午的最后公开发表。
The post was called, "Hello, I Am Fat." It included a full body photo of me taken that day by Kelly O, our staff photographer, with the caption, "28 years old, female, 5 foot 9, 263 pounds."
该帖子的标题是“你好，我很胖”。其中包括我们的摄影师 Kelly O 那天为我拍摄的一张全身照片，标题是“28 岁，女性，5 英尺 9 英寸，263 磅”。
It read as follows.
内容如下。
"This is my body, over there.
“这是我的身体，就在那里。
See it?
看到了吗？
I have lived in this body my whole life.
我一生都生活在这个身体里。
I have wanted to change this body my whole life.
我一生都想改变这个身体。
I get that you think you're actually helping people by contributing to the alp of shame that crushes every fat person every day of their lives.
我知道你认为你实际上是在帮助人们，因为你为每天压垮每个胖子的羞耻感做出了贡献。
But you're not helping.
但你没有帮助。
Shame doesn't work.
羞耻是没有用的。
Diets don't work.
节食没有作用。
Fat people already are ashamed.
胖子已经感到羞耻了。
It's taken care of.
它被照顾好了。
No further manpower needed on the shame front.
羞辱方面不需要更多的人力。
Thanks."
谢谢。”
Then I tore into something Dan wrote about fat rolls.
然后我撕碎了丹写的关于肥肉卷的东西。
Here's the quote.
这是引用。
"I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact-- being heavy is a health risk, rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly-- characterized as hate speech."
“我对自己温和的事实陈述感到非常恼火——体重过重对健康构成威胁，裸露的肉卷难看——被定性为仇恨言论。”
Ha!
哈！
Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly.
裸露的肉卷很难看。
That is in no way a tame statement of fact.
这绝不是一个温和的事实陈述。
It's not a fact at all.
这根本不是事实。
It's a cruel, subjective opinion.
这是一个残酷的、主观的观点。
But this is what's behind this entire thing.
但这就是整个事情的背后。
It's not about health.
这与健康无关。
It's about "ew." You think fat people are icky.
这是关于“呃”。你认为胖子很恶心。
Ew.
呃。
A fat person might touch you on a plane with their fat.
一个胖子可能会在飞机上用他的脂肪触摸你。
Ew!
呃！
Coincidentally, that's the same feeling that drives anti-gay bigots.
巧合的是，这种感觉也驱使着反同性恋的偏执者。
No matter what excuses they drum up about family values and, yes, health, it's all "ew." And sorry, I reject your "ew." You're not concerned about my health.
无论他们为家庭价值观和健康鼓吹什么借口，这都是“ew”。抱歉，我拒绝你的“呃”。你不关心我的健康。
Because if you were concerned about my health, you would also be concerned about my mental health, which has spent the past 28 years being slowly eroded by statements like the above.
因为如果你关心我的健康，你也会关心我的心理健康，在过去的 28 年里，我的心理健康一直被上述言论慢慢侵蚀。
Also, you don't know anything about my health.
而且，你对我的健康状况一无所知。
You do happen to be the boss of me, but you are not the doctor of me.
你确实是我的老板，但你不是我的医生。
You have no idea what I eat, how much I exercise, what my blood pressure is, or whether or not I'm going to get diabetes.
你不知道我吃什么、锻炼多少、血压是多少、或者我是否会患糖尿病。
Not that any of that matters, because it is entirely none of your business."
这些都不重要，因为这完全不关你的事。”
OK, I'm going to jump in one more time here, because this health question is actually kind of the third rail when people talk about fat people.
好吧，我要在这里再插一句，因为这个健康问题实际上是人们谈论胖子时的第三条轨道。
Fat people are told all the time they're choosing to be unhealthy.
胖子总是被告知他们选择不健康。
Lindy and other fat people point out that actually, the causes of obesity are way more complex than just eating too much.
林迪和其他胖子指出，实际上，肥胖的原因比吃得太多要复杂得多。
According to the National Institutes of Health, they include physiological, metabolic, genetic, psychological, social, and cultural factors.
根据美国国立卫生研究院的说法，它们包括生理、代谢、遗传、心理、社会和文化因素。
Also, we haven't invented a way to make fat people thin long term.
而且，我们还没有发明一种方法可以让胖子长期变瘦。
Fewer than 1 in 100 obese people get thin and keep it off, according to one recent study, which tracked over a quarter million people for nine years.
最近的一项研究显示，只有不到百分之一的肥胖者会变瘦并保持身材，该研究对超过 25 万人进行了九年的追踪。
So we're in this situation, where a third of all Americans are classified as overweight, another third of us are obese.
所以我们正处于这种情况，三分之一的美国人被归类为超重，另外三分之一的人肥胖。
Can it really be that so many of us are just weak and choosing to be unhealthy?
难道我们中的许多人真的只是因为软弱而选择不健康吗？
There must be some other way to think about this.
必须有其他的方式来思考这个问题。
OK, back to Lindy.
好吧，回到林迪。
I reject this entire framework.
我拒绝整个框架。
I'm not concerned with whether or not fat people can change their bodies through self-discipline and choices.
我不关心胖子能否通过自律和选择改变自己的身体。
Pretty much all of them have tried already.
几乎所有人都已经尝试过了。
A couple of them have succeeded.
其中有几个已经成功了。
Whatever.
任何。
My question is, what if they try and try and try and still fail?
我的问题是，如果他们尝试再尝试但仍然失败怎么办？
What if they're still fat?
如果他们还是胖怎么办？
What if they're fat forever?
如果他们永远胖下去怎么办？
What do you do with them then?
那你怎么处理它们呢？
Do you really want millions of teenage girls to feel like they're trapped in bodies that are ruining their lives?
你真的想让数以百万计的少女感觉自己被困在正在毁掉她们生活的身体里吗？
And on top of that, it's because of their own moral failure?
除此之外，还是因为他们自己的道德败坏？
And on top of that, they're ruining America with the terribly expensive diabetes that they don't even have yet?
最重要的是，他们正在用他们还没有患上的极其昂贵的糖尿病来毁掉美国？
You know what's shameful?
你知道什么是可耻的吗？
A complete lack of empathy.
完全缺乏同理心。
A few days later, Dan Savage wrote a response, by the way, three times longer than Lindy's post.
几天后，丹·萨维奇（Dan Savage）写了一条回复，顺便说一句，比林迪的帖子长三倍。
She didn't convince him at all.
她根本没有说服他。
Dan and she went out once for beer and soft pretzels and talked it out a little to make sure they were still friends.
丹和她有一次出去喝了啤酒，吃了软椒盐卷饼，聊了一会儿，以确保他们仍然是朋友。
Of course, they still didn't agree.
当然，他们还是没有同意。
And then they never spoke about it again.
然后他们就再也没有提起过这件事。
Lindy says in the years since, though, she's noticed-- and Dan says this is true-- he writes about fat people differently.
林迪说，不过，从那以后的几年里，她注意到——丹说这是真的——他对胖子的描写不同。
No cheap punchlines.
没有廉价的笑点。
Live and learn, he texted me.
生活和学习，他给我发短信。
Of course, how Lindy writes about fat people was changed by this as well.
当然，林迪对胖人的描写也因此发生了变化。
"Almost every day, I hear some kind friend say, Sophie, dear, I think you're much too stout.
“几乎每天，我都会听到一些好心的朋友说，索菲，亲爱的，我认为你太胖了。
Right away, they suggest the diet they think best.
他们立即建议他们认为最好的饮食。
They make me sick.
他们让我恶心。
I wish they'd cut it out.
我希望他们能把它砍掉。
I don't want to get thin.
我不想变瘦。
I don't want to get thin.
我不想变瘦。
Why should I when I'm all right as I am?"
既然我现在没事，为什么还要这么做呢？”
Act Two, It's a Small World After All.
第二幕，世界毕竟很小。
So when we were all talking about what wanted to put on this week's show, we come to the subject of fat suits.
因此，当我们都在讨论本周节目中想要展示什么时，我们就谈到了胖西装的主题。
And one of our staffers, Elna Baker, blurted out, if she put one of those on today, she'd feel like herself again.
我们的一位员工埃尔娜·贝克 (Elna Baker) 脱口而出，如果她今天穿上其中一件，她就会感觉又回到了自己。
Elna is one of those rare people who has lost a lot of weight.
艾尔娜是少数体重减轻很多的人之一。
She lost 110 pounds, and she's kept it off for years and years.
她减掉了 110 磅，而且多年来一直保持着这一体重。
Says she grew up being told the same thing that lots of fat girls are told-- that she'd never have a husband or a family if she stayed fat.
说她从小就被告知很多胖女孩都被告知的同样的事情——如果她一直胖下去，她就永远不会有丈夫或家庭。
She'd never got the job she wanted if she stayed fat.
如果她一直胖下去，她永远不会得到她想要的工作。
The job she wanted in her case was she wanted to be an actress.
就她而言，她想要的工作是成为一名演员。
Her grandfather would tell her flat out, nobody wants to see a fat girl on TV.
她的祖父会直截了当地告诉她，没有人想在电视上看到一个胖女孩。
But she didn't believe it.
但她不相信。
She thought it was an exaggeration.
她认为这有点夸张。
She's a hard worker, good attitude.
她工作很努力，态度也很好。
She just figured she'd just make it work.
她只是觉得自己一定能成功。
Then it didn't work.
然后就不行了。
Here's Elna.
这是艾尔娜。
A year out of college, I took stock of my life.
大学毕业一年后，我回顾了自己的生活。
It was not going as planned.
事情没有按计划进行。
I was unemployed, and I had never been in a relationship.
我失业了，也从未谈过恋爱。
I tried for the life I wanted, hard.
我努力过自己想要的生活，努力过。
I got a scholarship to NYU.
我获得了纽约大学的奖学金。
I was a huge flirt with lots of guy friends.
我和很多男性朋友都非常调情。
But it felt like there was an invisible force blocking me from achieving my dreams.
但感觉有一股无形的力量阻碍着我实现梦想。
Sure, I'd think, is it because I'm fat?
当然，我会想，是因为我胖吗？
But then I'd think, don't be paranoid.
但后来我想，不要偏执。
I refused to believe that people were that shallow.
我拒绝相信人们是如此肤浅。
It had to be more complicated.
它必须更复杂。
I tried to put my finger on it, but I just couldn't figure it out.
我试着用手指去指它，但就是不明白。
Once I lost weight, I realized, it was all because I was fat.
当我瘦下来之后，我才发现，这一切都是因为我胖。
It felt like that famous Eddie Murphy sketch on Saturday Night Live , where he goes undercover in whiteface and gets treated way better.
这感觉就像《周六夜现场》中著名的艾迪·墨菲小品，他穿着白脸卧底，受到了更好的待遇。
He rides the city bus.
他乘坐城市公交车。
And when the last black rider gets off, music starts.
当最后一个黑人骑手下车时，音乐开始了。
A cocktail waitress in a sequined dress hands out martinis.
一位身穿亮片连衣裙的鸡尾酒女服务员递上马提尼酒。
That's what I felt like-- like this whole other world for thin people had existed alongside mine, a world they've been keeping a secret from me.
这就是我的感觉——就像瘦人的另一个世界与我并存，他们一直对我保守秘密。
When I was fat and I walked down the street, people would stare.
当我很胖的时候，走在街上，人们都会盯着我看。
I'd hear comments that I would ignore.
我会听到一些我会忽略的评论。
Occasionally someone would shout something out at me.
偶尔有人会对我大喊大叫。
In this new world, when I walked down the street, attractive men and women would do something to me they'd never done before.
在这个新世界里，当我走在街上时，有魅力的男人和女人会对我做一些他们以前从未做过的事情。
They would look me up and down, and then they would nod their heads.
他们会上下打量我，然后点点头。
Thin people nod at each other?
瘦人互相点头？
One day, I went to pay for my groceries at a deli and realized I was short, off by a full $10.
有一天，我去一家熟食店付钱，发现我的钱少了，足足少了 10 美元。
I looked at my pile and began debating what would stay and what would go.
我看着我的一堆东西，开始讨论什么该留下，什么该走。
The deli guy waved his hand.
熟食店老板摆摆手。
"Just take it," he said.
“拿着吧，”他说。
Take it?
拿走吗？
I walked out cautiously, not sure what had just happened.
我小心翼翼地往外走，不知道发生了什么。
So I tried the same thing at a different deli, this time on purpose.
所以我在另一家熟食店尝试了同样的事情，这次是故意的。
I picked out more items than I had money for.
我挑选的物品比我有钱买的还要多。
Then I faked debating which ones to choose.
然后我假装辩论该选择哪些。
"Just take it," the man behind the counter said.
“拿着吧，”柜台后面的男人说。
Soon it was a scam I ran all over the city.
很快，这就是我满城跑的骗局。
It wasn't about saving money.
这不是为了省钱。
I wanted to know, is this is a thing?
我想知道，这是一件事吗？
It's a thing.
这是一件事。
Of course, I'd lost the weight to fix two specific problems.
当然，我减肥是为了解决两个具体问题。
I wanted to get a job and find love.
我想找到一份工作并找到爱情。
Old Elna looked for a job for a year and a half.
老艾尔娜找了一年半的工作。
New Elna was offered work a month after she hit her goal weight, an entry-level position on an actual TV show.
新埃尔娜在达到目标体重一个月后就得到了工作，这是一个真正的电视节目的入门级职位。
I was hired to be a page at the Letterman show.
我被聘为莱特曼秀的侍者。
My job was to walk down the line of people waiting to go into the theater and divide them into three groups-- dots, generals, and CBS twos.
我的工作是沿着等待进入剧院的人群走下去，并将他们分成三组——圆点组、将军组和哥伦比亚广播公司的二组。
The dots were the beautiful people.
这些点就是美丽的人。
They got seated in the first three rows.
他们坐在前三排。
Usually those were the only rows you saw on television.
通常这些是你在电视上看到的唯一的行。
Generals were average people.
将军都是普通人。
They sat in the order they arrived.
他们按照到达的顺序就座。
CBS two was for fat people, elderly people with a visible illness, people who looked like they might be disruptive, and goths.
CBS 2 是针对胖子、患有明显疾病的老年人、看起来可能具有破坏性的人和哥特人的。
I'd scribble CBS two on their ticket.
我会在他们的票上写上哥伦比亚广播公司二号。
And that was code for, seat them in the back three rows at the balcony-- the nosebleed seats.
这就是代码，让他们坐在阳台的后三排——流鼻血的座位。
I'd seen Letterman a few years earlier.
几年前我见过莱特曼。
I was near the front of the line and somehow ended up in the nosebleeds.
我排在队伍的最前面，结果不知何故流鼻血了。
I remember being confused by it.
我记得我对此感到困惑。
The day I was trained, I put it together.
在我接受培训的那天，我把它放在一起。
I lost weight so fast-- close to 100 pounds in 5 and 1/2 months-- that it was like going from one human to another.
我的体重减轻得如此之快——在 5 又 1/2 个月内减重了近 100 磅——就像从一个人变成了另一个人一样。
Here's how I did it.
我是这样做的。
I enrolled in a weight loss clinic.
我参加了一家减肥诊所。
The doctor gave me a list of foods I could eat and told me I had to exercise daily.
医生给了我一份可以吃的食物清单，并告诉我必须每天锻炼身体。
Your diet will be aided by medicine, he told me-- potassium, serotonin, dopamine, a multi-vitamin, and then phentermine, which would help suppress my appetite.
他告诉我，你的饮食将得到药物的帮助——钾、血清素、多巴胺、多种维生素，然后是芬特明，这将有助于抑制我的食欲。
I look down at the little colored tablets.
我低头看着那些小小的彩色药片。
Skittles, I thought, only the opposite.
我想，吃喝玩乐，恰恰相反。
I began my diet with a prayer for grace.
我从祈求恩典开始节食。
I was Mormon then.
那时我是摩门教徒。
I asked God to give me the same willpower Jesus had when he fasted in the wilderness for 40 days.
我祈求上帝赐给我耶稣在旷野禁食 40 天时所拥有的同样的意志力。
I prayed for his self-control.
我为他的自制力祈祷。
Then I took the first pill, phentermine, which is similar to amphetamines-- speed.
然后我吃了第一个药，芬特明，它类似于安非他命——速度。
I'd never done drugs before.
我以前从未吸过毒。
Remember, I was Mormon.
请记住，我是摩门教徒。
I'd never even tried coffee.
我什至从未尝试过咖啡。
I didn't know how a substance could alter your state of being.
我不知道物质如何改变你的存在状态。
And so when I became so focused, so driven, so able not to eat, and so into cleaning, I was certain my prayer had been answered.
因此，当我变得如此专注、如此有动力、如此能够不吃东西并开始打扫卫生时，我确信我的祈祷已经得到了回应。
I was sure it was God.
我确信那是上帝。
I kept a journal during that time and recently read from it on stage.
那段时间我写了一本日记，最近在舞台上读了它。
This is from my journal.
这是我的日记里的。
So I'm doing it.
所以我正在这样做。
I'm taking control over my body.
我正在掌控自己的身体。
In the last month and 10 days, I have lost 30 pounds.
在过去的一个月零10天里，我减掉了30磅。
I cannot deny Heavenly Father's role in this whole process.
我不能否认天父在整个过程中所扮演的角色。
I am receiving divine help.
我正在接受神圣的帮助。
I basically feel like I am possessed by an alien.
我基本上感觉自己被外星人附身了。
[LAUGHTER] Now I just have to keep going.
[笑声] 现在我必须继续前进。
And this is after-- so after I'd lost, like, 60 pounds, it was like the racial breakdown.
这是在我减掉大约 60 磅之后，就像种族崩溃一样。
I would walk down the street.
我会沿着街道走。
Black dudes noticed me.
黑人注意到了我。
10 more pounds, Hispanic guys noticed me.
多了 10 磅，西班牙裔家伙注意到了我。
20 more pounds, white guys noticed me.
又多了20磅，白人注意到了我。
And Asian guys have never noticed me!
亚洲男人从来没有注意到我！
[LAUGHTER] I have never been thin enough for Asian men.
[笑声] 对于亚洲男人来说，我从来都不够瘦。
I'd only been kissed a handful of times when I was fat.
我胖的时候只被亲吻过几次。
Each ended with the guys saying the same exact thing-- "don't tell anyone about this." I was hoping that losing weight might change all that.
每个人都以同样的话结束——“不要告诉任何人这件事。”我希望减肥可以改变这一切。
And it did.
确实如此。
New Elna kissed 16 guys in eight weeks.
New Elna 在八周内亲吻了 16 个男人。
I know this, because I drew a map in my journal of the city and marked the location of each kiss with an X, geolocating it.
我知道这一点，因为我在我的城市日记中画了一张地图，并用 X 标记了每个吻的位置，对其进行地理定位。
Nine months in, I started seeing a guy from my building-- a kindergarten teacher who left love notes on my door.
九个月后，我开始见到我大楼里的一个人——一位幼儿园老师，他在我的门上留下了情书。
And we started to really fall for each other.
我们开始真正爱上彼此。
One night, he told me, "I liked you from the first moment I saw you." He was referring to the building barbecue we'd hung out at a few weeks earlier.
一天晚上，他对我说：“从见到你的第一眼起，我就喜欢你了。”他指的是几周前我们在大楼里举行的烧烤会。
But we'd met long before that barbecue.
但我们早在烧烤之前就认识了。
We'd lived in the same small building for four years.
我们在同一栋小楼里住了四年。
One day, when I was still fat, I'd knocked on his door and asked to borrow a hammer.
有一天，当我还很胖的时候，我敲开了他的门，向他借一把锤子。
When I brought it back, we talked for 20 minutes.
当我把它带回来时，我们聊了20分钟。
After that, I knew him.
从那以后，我就认识了他。
He was Andy in 3C.
他就是3C里的安迪。
We nodded when we saw each other in the hallway.
当我们在走廊里看到对方时，我们点了点头。
Now he had no idea that girl was me.
现在他不知道那个女孩就是我。
We dated for another two months, but I couldn't let it go.
我们又约会了两个月，但我无法放手。
It just spoiled everything.
它只是破坏了一切。
I thought we were falling in love.
我以为我们正在相爱。
I thought it was real.
我以为这是真的。
But it was based on the way I looked.
但这是基于我的外表。
He couldn't even see me when I was fat.
当我胖的时候，他甚至看不到我。
I didn't matter until I was this size.
在我长到这个尺寸之前，我并不重要。
The attention I got from men, I wrote in my journal, I wish I could just enjoy it.
我在日记中写道，我从男人那里得到的关注，我希望我能享受它。
Instead it made me sad.
相反，这让我感到难过。
It was the unfairness that got to me.
这是对我的不公平。
Old Elna longed for someone like Andy and never got him.
老埃尔娜渴望安迪这样的人，但一直没有得到。
She tried so hard for everything that I now got so easily.
她为一切付出了如此多的努力，而我现在却如此轻松地得到了。
New Elna didn't have to be a good person.
新艾尔娜不一定是个好人。
I just had to be thin.
我只需要变瘦。
It made the world seem so bleak, like this is the system?
让世界显得如此惨淡，好像这就是系统？
Really?
真的吗？
It made me less hopeful about people.
这让我对人们不再抱有希望。
When guys came on to me, it didn't feel like it was about me.
当有人来找我时，我感觉不是针对我的。
I could be anyone.
我可以是任何人。
It made it hard to trust people.
这使得人们很难信任。
Can I just say another word about this?
我可以就此再多说几句吗？
It's just such an unbalanced reward system.
这就是一个不平衡的奖励制度。
It took so much more kindness, hard work, and ingenuity to be a person in the world when I was fat.
当我很胖的时候，要成为一个在这个世界上的人，需要付出更多的善良、努力和聪明才智。
All this took was not eating.
这一切都需要不吃东西。
Here's something that surprised me.
这是令我惊讶的事情。
It wasn't enough to take diet pills.
吃减肥药还不够。
It wasn't enough to lose the weight of an entire adult woman from my own body.
从我自己的身体上减掉整个成年女性的重量是不够的。
Once I did all that, I realized I still wasn't actually thin.
当我完成所有这些后，我意识到我实际上仍然不瘦。
Not really.
并不真地。
After dropping the weight, I had so much extra skin that I could lay on my side and pull it a half foot in either direction.
减轻体重后，我有很多多余的皮肤，我可以侧躺并朝任一方向拉半英尺。
For a long time, I tried to get the skin to go away with lotions and exercise.
很长一段时间，我试图通过乳液和运动来消除皮肤。
Eventually, I resorted to surgery-- in fact, four different surgeries.
最终，我采取了手术——事实上，进行了四种不同的手术。
They included something called a circumferential body lift.
其中包括一种称为圆周身体提升的东西。
They made an incision around my entire waist, cut out a 6-inch belt of skin, and then sewed me back together.
他们在我的整个腰部做了一个切口，切掉了一条 6 英寸长的皮肤带，然后将我重新缝合在一起。
I also got a thigh lift.
我还做了大腿提拉手术。
They cut up my legs from my knees to my groin and took out as much skin as they could.
他们把我的腿从膝盖到腹股沟切开，并尽可能多地取出皮肤。
Now I have a scar that runs completely around my waist, as if a magician cut me in half.
现在我的腰部有一道伤疤，就像魔术师把我切成两半一样。
I also have two scars running up my legs like inseams.
我的腿上也有两道伤疤，就像内缝一样。
In order for my legs to heal, I had to sit alone in a room for a month without any underwear and my legs spread eagle.
为了让我的腿痊愈，我不得不在房间里独自坐了一个月，不穿内衣，双腿张开。
It's OK.
没关系。
I made it through every season of The Wire .
我坚持看完了《火线》的每一季。
But it was a painful month.
但这是痛苦的一个月。
One night, I went to pee, and the incision along my crotch split open two inches, not unlike splitting the crotch of your jeans, except it was my actual crotch.
一天晚上，我去小便，我胯部的切口裂开两英寸，就像撕裂牛仔裤的胯部一样，只不过那是我真正的胯部。
I called the doctor in a panic.
我惊慌失措地打电话给医生。
He told me he couldn't sew it back up together without a risk of infection.
他告诉我，如果没有感染的风险，他无法将其缝合在一起。
So I had to pack the wound with gauze and keep packing it.
于是我只好用纱布包扎伤口，继续包扎。
I tried to pack it myself, but I was too hurt to move.
我试图自己收拾它，但我太受伤了，无法动弹。
As I bent forward, I heard it split even more.
当我向前倾身时，我听到它裂得更厉害。
I called my friend Andrea sobbing.
我打电话给我的朋友安德里亚，哭泣着。
She was at my apartment within five minutes.
五分钟内她就到了我的公寓。
She came in holding a bottle of white wine and two Valiums-- one for her, one for me.
她进来时手里拿着一瓶白葡萄酒和两颗安定药——一颗给她，一颗给我。
She had me lay back and pushed wads of gauze in my leg crease like she was putting the stuffing back in a teddy bear.
她让我躺下来，在我的腿折痕处塞上一团纱布，就像她把填充物放回泰迪熊里一样。
But even surgery couldn't remove the extra skin entirely.
但即使是手术也无法完全去除多余的皮肤。
When I hold my arms and legs out, I still look like a flying squirrel.
当我伸出胳膊和腿时，我看起来仍然像一只飞鼠。
Here's a journal entry from when I was 22.
这是我22岁时的日记。
Quote, "I was happy when I was overweight.
引用：“当我超重时我很高兴。
I had no idea I should be sad.
我不知道我应该悲伤。
I was free before.
我之前有空。
I had trained myself not to care what people thought, and I'd done a good job of it.
我训练自己不要在意别人的想法，而且我做得很好。
I learned how to do the worm, and I would do it in dance circles.
我学会了如何做蠕虫，我会在舞蹈圈里做。
Only I wasn't actually physically capable of it.
只是我实际上没有身体能力。
I just thought it was funny, and it made everyone laugh.
我只是觉得这很有趣，这让大家都笑了。
I would never do that now.
我现在绝不会那样做。
What if I look stupid?
如果我看起来很蠢怎么办？
I wore the most ridiculously bold things-- vintage neon green and pink Hawaiian print dresses.
我穿了最可笑的大胆的东西——复古的霓虹绿和粉色夏威夷印花连衣裙。
I didn't constantly take the temperature of the room.
我没有经常测量房间的温度。
It just was.
就是这样。
That's the person I sold out to become this person.
那是我为了成为这个人而出卖的人。
As new Elna, I threw out all my pictures of old Elna and all the pictures in my parents' photo albums too, because I didn't want people to see them.
作为新的Elna，我扔掉了所有旧Elna的照片以及我父母相册中的所有照片，因为我不想让人们看到它们。
And when I looked at those photos, they made me feel bad, because in the pictures, I looked happy.
当我看到那些照片时，它们让我感觉很糟糕，因为在照片中，我看起来很高兴。
And I'd look at them and think, you're so stupid to think that you're happy.
我看着他们，心想，你真愚蠢，以为自己很幸福。
That's crazy, of course.
当然，这太疯狂了。
And now I don't have any pictures of myself from ages 12 to 22.
现在我没有任何自己 12 岁到 22 岁时的照片。
As new Elna, I once went on a date with a cute guy who said to me, I know this is going to sound mean, but I just can't tolerate fat people, and then took my hand for the very first time.
作为新的埃尔娜，我曾经和一个可爱的家伙约会，他对我说，我知道这听起来很刻薄，但我就是不能容忍胖子，然后第一次握住了我的手。
And I held his hand.
我握着他的手。
I said nothing.
我什么也没说。
I didn't tell him about old Elna.
我没有告诉他老艾尔娜的事。
We went for a walk.
我们去散步了。
I went out with him again.
我又和他出去了。
It's sad that new Elna gets everything old Elna wanted, because I think old Elna was a better person than new Elna.
令人遗憾的是，新埃尔娜得到了旧埃尔娜想要的一切，因为我认为老埃尔娜比新埃尔娜更好。
Recently I read Lindy West's book.
最近我读了林迪·韦斯特的书。
She's my same age.
她和我同龄。
We both grew up in Seattle.
我们都在西雅图长大。
We're the same height and used to be the same weight.
我们身高相同，体重也一样。
And she stayed fat and decided she was happy with it.
她保持肥胖并认为她对此感到满意。
She got everything I thought I had to lose over 100 pounds to get.
她得到了我认为必须减掉 100 多磅才能得到的一切。
Sarai Walker's book Dietland hit me just as hard.
萨莱·沃克（Sarai Walker）的书《迪特兰》（Dietland）同样给我很大的打击。
I related more to those books than any I've ever read.
我与这些书的联系比我读过的任何书都多。
In each of them, a fat woman grappled with the same things I did and made the opposite choice.
在每一个故事中，一个胖女人都与我所做的相同的事情作斗争，并做出了相反的选择。
They stayed fat.
他们一直很胖。
And reading these two books was the first time I was able to imagine a parallel universe where I could have stayed fat.
读这两本书是我第一次能够想象一个平行宇宙，在那里我可以保持肥胖。
For the first time, I wondered if I had done the right thing by killing off old Elna.
我第一次怀疑自己杀死老艾尔娜的做法是否正确。
I've been honestly in a bit of a crisis.
老实说，我陷入了一点危机。
I started recording a conversation with my husband a few weeks ago about some of this to help think through the ideas of this story.
几周前，我开始录制与丈夫的对话，以帮助思考这个故事的想法。
I do that a lot.
我经常这样做。
He and I have only been married a month.
我和他结婚才一个月。
He never met old Elna.
他从未见过老艾尔娜。
And we were talking about fat and beauty and how important beauty is for men.
我们谈论了脂肪和美丽以及美丽对男人的重要性。
And it got really emotional really fast.
而且很快就变得非常情绪化。
--to be that.
——就这样吧。
You would never have been attracted to me before.
以前你永远不会被我吸引。
You know that makes me really sad?
你知道这让我很伤心吗？
Oh, my god.
哦，天啊。
I mean, you married someone that wouldn't have been attracted to you?
我的意思是，你嫁给了一个不会被你吸引的人？
Who wouldn't have loved me.
谁会不爱我呢。
You would never have talked-- I mean, you would have talked to me.
你永远不会说话——我的意思是，你会跟我说话。
We would have been friends.
我们本来会成为朋友的。
But you wouldn't have ever dated me, ever.
但你永远不会和我约会。
Yeah, but you know what's funny?
是的，但你知道什么是有趣的吗？
There's something about you--
有一些关于你的事——
He changes the subject to disillusionment in general, says what I'm realizing is the same thing every teenager realizes in every John Hughes movie-- that the world is unfair.
他把话题转向了总体上的幻灭，说我所意识到的和约翰·休斯的每部电影中每个青少年都意识到的一样——世界是不公平的。
I'm not having it.
我没有。
Can I go back a second?
我可以回去一下吗？
Mark Sikes Yeah, how far back?
马克·赛克斯 是的，多久以前？
I actually have never said it.
其实我从来没有说过。
But I said to you that you wouldn't have been attracted to me.
但我告诉过你，你不会被我吸引。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Mark Sikes I don't know.
马克·赛克斯 我不知道。
Probably not.
可能不会。
So we're a newlywed couple.
所以我们是一对新婚夫妇。
Elna Baker Married for two weeks.
艾尔娜·贝克结婚两周了。
Married for two weeks.
结婚两周了。
Elna Baker Not even.
埃尔娜·贝克 甚至没有。
How long have we been married?
我们结婚多久了？
10 days?
10天？
And we're realizing that our marriage is based on a lie.
我们意识到我们的婚姻是建立在谎言之上的。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
It was a joke, of course, our marriage based on a lie.
当然，这是一个笑话，我们的婚姻是建立在谎言之上的。
Ha, ha, ha.
哈哈哈。
But then there's this.
但还有这个。
I've always said I think the real you is the skinny you.
我总是说我认为真正的你就是瘦的你。
That's stupid.
那太愚蠢了。
Mark Sikes Not the skinny you, but the real--
马克·赛克斯 不是瘦骨嶙峋的你，而是真实的——
No, that's not even true.
不，这根本不是真的。
I think the real--
我认为真正的——
This argument over which is the real me, old Elna or new Elna, goes on for days.
关于哪个是真正的我，老艾尔娜还是新艾尔娜的争论持续了好几天。
Well, then that's you.
好吧，那就是你了。
Elna Baker No, it's just--
埃尔娜·贝克：不，只是——
Here we are in a car.
我们在车里。
Mark explains that he doesn't think I became comfortable with myself until I was thin.
马克解释说，他认为直到我变瘦之后我才对自己感到满意。
If this isn't-- no, no, no. No, no, no. Listen to me.
如果这不是——不，不，不。不，不，不。听我说。
I didn't feel like I'm comfortable in my body or my own skin before.
我以前感觉自己的身体或皮肤不舒服。
It was just me.
只有我一个人。
I know, but if-- Elna Baker It wasn't like I was--
我知道，但是如果——埃尔娜·贝克那不像我——
If you feel like-- Elna Baker It wasn't like me in a fat suit.
如果你觉得—— Elna Baker 这不像我穿着肥大的西装。
It was me.
是我。
That's what I was.
我就是这样。
So I wasn't like, oh, this feels really big and uncomfortable.
所以我不觉得，哦，这感觉真的很大而且不舒服。
It just was me as a human.
这只是我作为一个人。
I was just a human.
我只是一个人。
It was me.
是我。
I know, but you-- Elna Baker What Mark doesn't understand is that my old body doesn't feel that far away.
我知道，但是你——埃尔娜·贝克（Elna Baker）马克不明白的是，我旧的身体并不感觉那么遥远。
What he's rejecting is me.
他拒绝的就是我。
I could gain weight so easily.
我可以很容易地增加体重。
I mean, what if we have kids?
我的意思是，如果我们有孩子怎么办？
But we're working on it.
但我们正在努力。
He told me recently he knows he hasn't been listening.
他最近告诉我，他知道自己没有在听。
And for my part, I see how so much of love is physical attraction, especially at the beginning.
就我而言，我看到这么多的爱是身体上的吸引，尤其是在开始的时候。
It's not the story we're told.
这不是我们所讲的故事。
It's not the one I wanted to believe.
这不是我想相信的那个。
But it's a story I can live with.
但这是一个我可以忍受的故事。
Here's something I never tell people.
这是我从不告诉别人的事情。
I still take phentermine.
我仍然服用芬特明。
I take it for a few months at a time a year, or sometimes it feels like half of the year.
我每年服用几个月，有时感觉就像半年一样。
I can't get it prescribed anymore, so I buy it in Mexico or online, though the online stuff is fake and doesn't work as well.
我不能再开处方了，所以我在墨西哥或网上购买，尽管网上的东西是假的，效果也不好。
I have a shirt that says, "I'm allergic to mornings." Everyone who knows me knows I have problems sleeping at night.
我有一件衬衫，上面写着：“我对早晨过敏。”每个认识我的人都知道我晚上睡觉有问题。
I am usually up until 4:00 AM.
我通常工作到凌晨 4:00。
I say I have insomnia.
我说我失眠了。
Really, I am awake because I am on speed.
真的，我醒着是因为我速度很快。
And I am on speed, because I need to stay thin.
我速度很快，因为我需要保持苗条。
I need to stay thin so I can get what I want.
我需要保持苗条，这样我才能得到我想要的。
I know how this sounds.
我知道这听起来如何。
I know exactly how messed up it is.
我清楚地知道事情有多混乱。
But I also feel like I can't be honest with you, like we won't really get anywhere unless I admit it.
但我也觉得我不能对你诚实，除非我承认这一点，否则我们不会真正取得任何进展。
I'm taking it right now, by the way.
顺便说一下，我现在就拿它。
I took it at 11:00 AM this morning.
我今天早上 11:00 拍的。
I will take another one at 4:00.
我将在 4:00 拿另一张。
I was on it to lose weight for my wedding.
我是为了婚礼而减肥的。
And now I'm still on it because I'm about to pitch a TV show in LA, and I need to lose even more weight.
现在我还在坚持，因为我即将在洛杉矶推销一个电视节目，我需要减掉更多的体重。
Phentermine turns off the part of my brain that thinks about food.
芬特明关闭了我大脑中思考食物的部分。
When I'm on it, I can legitimately say, I forgot to eat.
当我在吃的时候，我可以理直气壮地说，我忘了吃饭。
I've thought before that it may be affecting my health.
我以前曾想过这可能会影响我的健康。
It feels that way.
感觉就是这样。
I've intentionally never googled the side effects.
我故意从来没有用谷歌搜索过副作用。
I know that all of this is wrong.
我知道这一切都是错误的。
I don't like what I am.
我不喜欢我现在的样子。
But I've accepted it as part of the deal.
但我已经接受它作为交易的一部分。
Elna Baker is one of the producers of our show.
埃尔娜·贝克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Coming up, does God want you thin?
来来来，老天爷要你瘦吗？
Some people think so.
有些人这么认为。
Grab a Twinkie and come back in a minute, Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台，当我们的节目继续时，拿一块奶油夹心饼，一会儿就回来。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, "Tell Me I'm Fat," in which we ask, should we think about weight differently than we do?
在今天的节目“告诉我我胖”中，我们会问，我们是否应该以不同的方式看待体重？
We've arrived at Act Three of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, How You Doing with Sizes?
第三幕，你如何处理尺寸？
So obesity in America affects a higher percentage of black people than white people.
因此，在美国，肥胖影响黑人的比例高于白人。
Roxane Gay has written a lot about race and some about obesity in her book Bad Feminist and elsewhere.
罗克珊·盖伊（Roxane Gay）在她的书《坏女权主义者》和其他地方写了很多关于种族和肥胖的文章。
Roxane's black.
罗克珊是黑人。
She's fat.
她很胖。
And she says those two things together have a huge impact on the way people perceive her.
她说这两件事一起对人们对她的看法产生了巨大的影响。
Oh, I'm mistaken for a man all the time.
哦，我总是被误认为是一个男人。
Literally all the time.
从字面上看，一直都是这样。
And I'm sorry, but I have huge breasts.
抱歉，我的胸部很大。
There's just no way that you're mistaking me for a man.
你不可能把我误认为是一个男人。
It's because they see me, and they see my skin.
这是因为他们看到了我，他们看到了我的皮肤。
And they think, well, no, she can't possibly be a woman.
他们认为，嗯，不，她不可能是一个女人。
And so that's the number one thing that happens, and it's actually extremely annoying.
这是发生的第一件事，而且实际上非常烦人。
And it's white people, or it's black people also?
是白人，还是黑人也是？
Oh, no, it's white people.
哦，不，是白人。
Black people know what I am.
黑人知道我是什么。
You said being black adds another layer of bullshit to being overweight.
你说黑人的身份给超重增加了另一层废话。
Yes, it does, like you're even lower on the sort of totem pole of dignity.
是的，确实如此，就像你在尊严图腾柱上的地位更低一样。
People look right past you, and they don't think that you have anything of value to offer.
人们会忽略你，认为你没有提供任何有价值的东西。
Like, you can go into a car dealership, for example.
例如，您可以进入汽车经销店。
And you're the very last person that the dealer will walk up to, because they think you can't buy a car.
而你是经销商最后会去找的人，因为他们认为你买不起汽车。
Has that happened to you at a car dealership?
您在汽车经销店遇到过这种情况吗？
Yeah, definitely.
是的，绝对是。
You know, I think the thing that happens most commonly is when I'm flying, I am oftentimes standing in the priority line, because I travel every week.
你知道，我认为最常发生的事情是当我乘坐飞机时，我经常站在优先队列中，因为我每周都会旅行。
And people will say, you know, this is the first-class line, as if I don't belong there.
人们会说，你知道，这是一流的线路，好像我不属于那里一样。
What do you say?
你怎么说？
Roxane Gay I say I know how to read and just leave it at that.
罗克珊·盖伊 我说我知道如何阅读，就这样吧。
You draw a distinction among different kinds of fatness.
您可以区分不同类型的肥胖。
Can I have you talk about that?
我可以请你谈谈这个吗？
Yeah, I mean, I think there are different kinds of fatness.
是的，我的意思是，我认为肥胖有不同类型。
There's the person who's maybe 20 pounds overweight, who's fine as they are.
有些人体重可能超重 20 磅，但身体状况良好。
But if they want to lose weight, they just need to go on Slim Fast for a couple weeks or something.
但如果他们想减肥，他们只需要坚持几周或几天的快速瘦身。
And then you have people who are-- I like to call them Lane Bryant fat, which means they can still buy clothes at Lane Bryant, which goes up to 28 in size.
还有一些人——我喜欢称他们为 Lane Bryant 胖子，这意味着他们仍然可以在 Lane Bryant 购买衣服，尺码最大为 28 号。
And they're the ones I find that are often the strongest cheerleaders of, this is who I am, and, you have to take me as I am and respect me because of my body not despite it.
我发现他们往往是最坚强的啦啦队员，这就是我，你必须接受我本来的样子，尊重我，因为我的身体，而不是尽管如此。
And I admire that a great deal.
我非常钦佩这一点。
But I think it's easier to feel that way when you have multiple places where you can buy clothes and feel pretty and move through the world.
但我认为，当你有多个地方可以购买衣服、感觉漂亮并在世界各地走动时，你会更容易有这种感觉。
And you noted, Lindy is what you call Lane Bryant fat.
你也注意到了，林迪就是你所说的莱恩·布莱恩特胖子。
She told me she was a size 22.
她告诉我她穿的是 22 码。
Yeah, I mean, and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way.
是的，我的意思是，我的意思并不是不尊重。
I just mean she has access to spaces that people like me do not.
我只是说她可以进入像我这样的人无法进入的空间。
There's another level.
还有另一个层次。
I mean, then there's when you're super morbidly obese, where you can't really even find stores that can accommodate you.
我的意思是，当你超级病态肥胖时，你甚至找不到可以容纳你的商店。
You don't fit in any public spaces, like movie theaters, public bathrooms, so on and so forth.
你不适合进入任何公共场所，比如电影院、公共浴室等等。
Is the official name of what you are morbidly obese?
您病态肥胖的正式名称是吗？
That's the medical term?
这是医学术语吗？
No, the medical term is super morbidly obese.
不，医学术语是超级病态肥胖。
It's so mean.
真是太卑鄙了
Roxane Gay Yes, it is.
罗克珊·盖伊 是的，确实如此。
It's mean.
太卑鄙了。
It's dehumanizing.
这是非人性的。
How much weight would you have to lose to be Lane Bryant fat?
你需要减掉多少体重才能成为莱恩·布莱恩特胖子？
200 pounds.
200磅。
Ira Glass You've said this thing-- fat is all I ever think about, and it's exhausting.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：你说过这样的话——我只想到脂肪，而且它让人筋疲力尽。
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
I'm just hyper-obsessed.
我只是过度着迷。
This whole nonstop anxiety conversation happens in my head all the time for just basic life functions, like, oh, I have to go do this, you know?
这整个不间断的焦虑对话一直在我的脑海中发生，只是为了基本的生活功能，比如，哦，我必须去做这个，你知道吗？
Before I will go out to eat, I research a restaurant extensively on Google.
在出去吃饭之前，我会在谷歌上对一家餐馆进行广泛的研究。
And I look at Google Images.
我查看谷歌图片。
And I make sure, are the chairs solid?
我还要确保椅子坚固吗？
Do they have arms?
他们有武器吗？
What does the dining room look like?
餐厅是什么样子的？
And if I don't think I'm going to be comfortable, I simply won't go.
如果我觉得自己不舒服，我就不会去。
It's sobering to realize just how the past 25 years have just been all about my body.
意识到过去 25 年我的身体是如何变化的，这让我发人深省。
And that's where I struggle with the fat acceptance movement.
这就是我与脂肪接受运动斗争的地方。
I think it's wonderful, and I think it's necessary and a necessary corrective.
我认为这很棒，而且我认为这是必要的、必要的纠正。
But not all of us of have been able to get to that space where we don't care what other people think.
但并不是我们所有人都能达到不在乎别人怎么想的境界。
I'm not all there yet, and I'm trying.
我还没有完全做到这一点，我正在努力。
But it's just really hard to not care what people think, especially when they're constantly telling you what they think.
但要不关心别人的想法真的很难，尤其是当他们不断地告诉你他们的想法时。
But part of it is being able to say, I feel good and fine about looking this way and being this way.
但其中一部分是能够说，我对这样的外表和这样的态度感觉很好。
And it seems like when I read you, I feel like, oh, well, that's a huge part of what you actually don't want to accept.
当我读到你的文章时，我感觉，哦，好吧，这是你实际上不想接受的很大一部分。
You're saying, I happen to be this way, but I don't want to be this way.
你说，我恰好是这样，但我不想这样。
So why do I have to pretend that I'm OK with it?
那么为什么我必须假装我对此很满意呢？
Exactly.
确切地。
I don't want to pretend that I'm OK with it, and it's not judging anyone else.
我不想假装我对此很满意，也不想评判别人。
It's just that I know the realities of living in my body.
只是我知道生活在我身体里的现实。
I know how irritating and how exhausting it is to, for example, climb a set of stairs.
我知道爬楼梯是多么令人恼火和疲惫不堪。
And so I don't need to be thin, but I want to be in better shape.
所以我不需要很瘦，但我想拥有更好的身材。
I want to have more stamina.
我想要有更多的体力。
And I honestly, because I'm vain, want to wear cuter clothes.
老实说，因为我很虚荣，所以想穿更可爱的衣服。
That's normal.
这很正常。
Roxane Gay Yeah, it is normal.
罗克珊·盖伊 是的，这很正常。
But then there's a lot of people who don't like that attitude in me.
但也有很多人不喜欢我的这种态度。
But again, I think it's because they're Lane Bryant fat.
但我再次认为这是因为他们是莱恩·布莱恩特（Lane Bryant）胖的。
And even when you're Lane Bryant fat, it's a struggle.
即使你像莱恩·布莱恩特一样胖，这也是一场斗争。
But at least you have that.
但至少你有这个。
I don't even have that.
我什至没有那个。
And so it's like, let me feel the way I want to feel.
所以就像是，让我感受我想要的感觉。
Just let me be me.
让我做我自己吧。
Roxane Gay.
罗克珊·盖伊。
She's currently writing a book about being fat.
她目前正在写一本关于肥胖的书。
It's called Hunger .
这就是所谓的饥饿。
By the way, we double-checked with Lane Bryant.
顺便说一下，我们与莱恩·布莱恩特再次确认过。
This doesn't change Roxane's point at all, but they go up to 32.
这根本没有改变 Roxane 的观点，但他们的分数上升到了 32。
Act Four, Cross Trainers.
第四幕，交叉训练器。
It's so common to judge people on their weight.
根据体重来判断一个人是很常见的。
And of course, so often there is this moral dimension to it that is just gross-- this idea that you're fat because you're weak, you can't get control of your own life.
当然，这种想法常常带有一种道德层面的恶心——认为你之所以胖是因为你很弱，你无法控制自己的生活。
Today on our program, we're saying maybe that is not the most accurate or the most helpful way to look at this.
今天在我们的节目中，我们说这也许不是看待这个问题的最准确或最有帮助的方式。
This next story is about a very specialized example of this kind of moralism.
下一个故事是关于这种道德主义的一个非常特殊的例子。
You may know that there's a Christian weight loss movement.
您可能知道有基督教减肥运动。
And it's big, with seminars and books like Help Lord, the Devil Wants Me Fat .
而且规模很大，有研讨会和书籍，如《主啊，魔鬼要我发胖》等。
Daniel Engber takes us into to a particularly extreme moment for this movement.
丹尼尔·恩格贝尔（Daniel Engber）带我们进入了这一运动的一个特别极端的时刻。
Paul Brynteson loves to exercise.
保罗·布林特森热爱锻炼。
He's a runner.
他是一名跑步者。
He's a biker.
他是一名骑自行车的人。
He's actually got a doctorate in physical education.
他实际上拥有体育博士学位。
And he spent a big portion of his life teaching people how to stay in shape.
他一生中花了很大一部分时间教导人们如何保持身材。
In the early 1970s, Paul got this dream job offer.
20 世纪 70 年代初，保罗得到了这份梦想的工作机会。
He got a call from the brand-new Oral Roberts University asking him to head up their new phys ed program.
他接到了全新的奥罗罗伯茨大学的电话，要求他领导他们新的体育项目。
Paul was a Pentecostal Evangelical Christian.
保罗是一位五旬节福音派基督徒。
And Oral Roberts was maybe the most famous televangelist and faith healer in the world.
奥罗·罗伯茨可能是世界上最著名的电视布道者和信仰治疗师。
Two of the biggest things in Paul's life were coming together-- God and exercise.
保罗一生中最重要的两件事正在结合在一起——上帝和锻炼。
So Paul and his wife moved out to Tulsa.
于是保罗和他的妻子搬到了塔尔萨。
When I arrived at Oral Roberts University, within a month, he met with all the new faculty.
当我到达奥罗罗伯茨大学后，不到一个月，他就见了所有新教师。
And I remember sitting across from him in his home having dinner.
我记得在他家里坐在他对面吃晚饭。
And I asked him the question, why is physical fitness so important to you?
我问他一个问题，为什么身体健康对你来说如此重要？
Because I was aware of the whole Pentecostal fundamentalist movement of Christianity, and exercise was not a part of that environment.
因为我知道基督教的整个五旬节原教旨主义运动，而锻炼并不是那个环境的一部分。
And so I wondered, why was it important to Oral Roberts?
所以我想知道，为什么它对奥罗·罗伯茨很重要？
And his response, I thought, was really interesting.
我认为他的回应非常有趣。
Now, he was a faith healer.
现在，他是一名信仰治疗师。
He had traveled the world for those 25 years before we got there praying for the sick.
在我们到达那里为病人祈祷之前的 25 年里，他已经周游世界了。
And so he told me.
他就是这样告诉我的。
He said, I've probably laid my hands and prayed for over a million-- well over a million-- people.
他说，我可能已经为超过一百万人——远远超过一百万人——祈祷。
And as I did that, little by little, I observed that I think I wouldn't have to pray for the healing and health of these individuals if they would just take care of themselves.
当我这样做时，我一点一点地观察到，如果这些人能够照顾好自己，我认为我不必为他们的康复和健康祈祷。
Oral Roberts wanted to teach a lifestyle to his students, what he called the whole man philosophy-- mind, body, spirit.
奥罗·罗伯茨想向他的学生传授一种生活方式，他称之为“完整的人哲学”——思想、身体、精神。
They would all have equal importance at the school.
他们在学校都具有同等的重要性。
Here's how the provost from back then, Carl Hamilton, explains it now.
以下是当时的教务长卡尔·汉密尔顿现在的解释。
Our bodies are the home of the Holy Spirit.
我们的身体是圣灵的家。
Making that home a fit one is one of the ways to glorify God and the Holy Spirit.
让这个家成为一个合适的家是荣耀上帝和圣灵的方式之一。
Paul would be in charge of making that home a fit one.
保罗将负责把这个家打造成一个合适的家。
In the fall of 1974, he took over the school's aerobics program at a brand new $2 million center with a fancy indoor track.
1974 年秋天，他接管了学校的健美操项目，该项目位于耗资 200 万美元的全新中心，拥有精美的室内跑道。
Every student had to get a certain number of aerobics points per week.
每个学生每周必须获得一定数量的有氧运动分数。
They might get a point for walking a mile or two for playing doubles tennis or five for bouncing on a trampoline.
他们可能因为打双打网球而步行一两英里而得一分，或者因为在蹦床上弹跳而得五分。
Remember, this is 40 years before Fitbits.
请记住，这比 Fitbit 还早 40 年。
Back in 1974, just the idea of regular exercise was cutting edge.
早在 1974 年，定期锻炼的想法就很前沿。
Jogging had only just become a thing.
慢跑才刚刚成为一种时尚。
Aerobics was brand new.
有氧运动是全新的。
And here was ORU with all its students running around in headbands and tube socks.
这里是 ORU，所有学生都戴着头带、穿着筒袜跑来跑去。
Then Oral Roberts had another idea-- to push the fitness program even further.
然后奥罗·罗伯茨有了另一个想法——进一步推动健身计划。
Here's Paul.
这是保罗。
At the graduation ceremonies of 1975, at the end of my first year there, Oral Roberts observed several students who graduated that he saw were obese.
在 1975 年的毕业典礼上，也就是我在那里的第一年结束时，奥拉·罗伯茨观察到，他认为几名毕业的学生都很肥胖。
And within the next few days, he contacted Dr. Carl Hamilton, the provost of the university-- and this is, I understand, how this took place-- and said, I really don't want to see significantly overweight, obese students graduating, because it indicates that they have not met the goal of the university to be physically disciplined.
接下来的几天里，他联系了大学教务长卡尔·汉密尔顿博士——据我了解，事情是这样发生的——并说，我真的不希望看到明显超重、肥胖的学生毕业，因为这表明他们没有达到大学体罚的目标。
And please develop some guidelines or some criteria so those students make progress or do not graduate.
请制定一些指导方针或标准，以便这些学生取得进步或无法毕业。
Maybe do not graduate is too strong a term, but that, , anyway, something is done about that.
也许“不毕业”这个词太过强烈，但无论如何，我们已经采取了一些措施。
In that moment, something changed.
就在那一刻，有些事情发生了变化。
Paul's fitness program wouldn't just keep tabs on students' exercise.
保罗的健身计划不仅仅关注学生的锻炼情况。
Now he'd make sure they weren't fat.
现在他要确保他们不胖。
Suddenly how you looked mattered.
突然间，你的外表变得很重要。
And so we began doing skin fold testing that fall.
所以我们从那年秋天开始进行皮肤褶皱测试。
Skin fold testing.
皮肤褶皱测试。
Just to give you a sense of how serious ORU was about this and how ambitious, at the beginning of every semester, every freshman went to what they called the human performance lab for skin fold testing.
为了让你感受到 ORU 对此有多么认真和多么雄心勃勃，每个学期开始时，每个新生都会去他们所谓的人体性能实验室进行皮肤褶皱测试。
They were tested on a bunch of stuff-- their lipid levels, their lung capacity, and their body fat.
他们接受了一系列测试——血脂水平、肺活量和体脂。
First, they take a caliper to the thigh.
首先，他们用卡尺测量大腿。
In the abdomen, in the back, in the triceps area.
在腹部、背部、三头肌区域。
And then in certain cases, they checked their measurements by dunking students in a giant bathtub.
然后在某些情况下，他们通过将学生浸泡在一个巨大的浴缸中来检查他们的测量结果。
That was the gold standard for determining body fat in the 1970s.
这是 20 世纪 70 年代测定体脂的黄金标准。
So they put you in a bathing suit, right?
所以他们让你穿上泳衣，对吗？
So the least amount of clothing that you can get away with.
所以你可以带的衣服最少。
And of course, it was a Christian university, so it was almost like a turtleneck bathing suit, right?
当然，这是一所基督教大学，所以它几乎就像一件高领泳衣，对吧？
Jerri Johnston was one of the students in Paul's new program.
杰里约翰斯顿是保罗新项目的学生之一。
She says her fat test was like being in a carnival dunk tank.
她说她的脂肪测试就像在嘉年华扣篮池里一样。
They would put you on this chair and lower you into the water-filled-- I would just call it-- it was almost like they were putting you in a big beaker.
他们会把你放在这把椅子上，然后把你放入装满水的地方——我只是这么称呼它——这几乎就像他们把你放在一个大烧杯里一样。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
And it would have water in it, and they would put you in the water.
里面会有水，他们会把你放进水里。
And they would tell you-- up to your neck.
他们会告诉你——直到你的脖子为止。
And they would say, blow out as much air as you can and then hold your breath as long as you can.
他们会说，尽可能多地呼气，然后尽可能长时间地屏住呼吸。
And then they would put you on in the water.
然后他们会把你放到水里。
And then they would--
然后他们会——
You know-- Daniel Engber Did all of the students have to do that?
你知道吗——Daniel Engber 所有的学生都必须这样做吗？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I think just the people that were in-- just us special ones.
我想只有里面的人——只有我们这些特殊的人。
Jerri Johnston was too big.
杰里约翰斯顿太大了。
Students like her were put onto something called the Pounds Off plan.
像她这样的学生被安排了一项名为“减磅计划”的计划。
It all came down to their percentage body fat.
这一切都取决于他们的体脂百分比。
25% for males and 35% for females would be a good cutoff.
男性 25% 和女性 35% 是一个很好的界限。
And then they had to lose some weight.
然后他们必须减肥。
Specifically, lose 8 pounds each semester and 1% body fat.
具体来说，每学期减掉8磅和1%的体脂。
This wasn't a suggestion.
这不是一个建议。
It was a requirement.
这是一个要求。
The school told Jerri at the end of sophomore year that she'd have to keep on losing weight.
大二结束时，学校告诉杰瑞她必须继续减肥。
She'd have to weigh 180 pounds by the time that she came back in the fall.
秋天回来时，她的体重已经达到 180 磅。
Well, we came on campus.
嗯，我们来到了校园。
And so my roommate was there, and then my friend was there.
我的室友在那里，然后我的朋友在那里。
And so I was like, oh.
所以我想，哦。
And then I said, let me go over.
然后我说，让我过去吧。
I have to go over the lab.
我得去实验室看看。
We had to check in over there.
我们必须在那里办理登机手续。
The human performance lab?
人类表现实验室？
Jerri Johnston Yeah, and check in.
Jerri Johnston 是的，然后登记入住。
And then I'll be back, and we'll unpack and everything.
然后我会回来，我们会打开行李和所有东西。
When she stepped on the scale, she came in at 184, 4 pounds too heavy.
当她站上体重秤时，她的体重为 184 磅，超重了 4 磅。
And they said, you're over this weight.
他们说，你已经超过这个体重了。
We want you to go home and try to get the weight off this semester.
我们希望你这个学期回家并努力减肥。
And then you're welcome to come back next semester if you make the weight.
如果你能达到体重，欢迎你下学期回来。
She'd have to go back to the dorm, say goodbye to her roommates, and go home.
她得回宿舍，跟室友告别，然后回家。
She'd been suspended for being fat.
她因肥胖而被停职。
And I was astonished.
我很惊讶。
And then they prayed with us.
然后他们和我们一起祈祷。
I was like, OK.
我当时想，好吧。
And then--
然后——
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Daniel Engber They told you that in front of your parents, and then you all prayed together with your parents.
[插话] Daniel Engber 他们在你父母面前告诉你这些，然后你们和父母一起祈祷。
Well, I was praying.
嗯，我当时正在祈祷。
My dad might have been acting like he was praying, because he was pretty upset that somebody was treating me like that.
我父亲可能表现得像在祈祷，因为他对有人那样对待我感到非常不安。
And so when I got back in the dorm and I was talking to my roommates and stuff, they were like, well, you can do it.
因此，当我回到宿舍并与室友之类的人交谈时，他们说，好吧，你可以做到。
You know, we'll pray for you this semester.
你知道，这个学期我们会为你祈祷。
And I was just pretty devastated for the first couple of months that, you know, that that was the only thing that seemed to be important, right?
最初的几个月我非常沮丧，你知道，那似乎是唯一重要的事情，对吧？
What I look like and not what kind of person I was.
我看起来像什么，而不是我是什么样的人。
And it was kind of a disclaimer of everything that a Christian university was supposed to be about, right?
这有点像是对基督教大学应有的一切的免责声明，对吗？
I was like, really, God?
我当时想，真的吗，上帝？
Is this how you're judging people?
这就是你评价人的方式吗？
I don't know how they reconcile that, you know?
我不知道他们是如何协调这一点的，你知道吗？
The thing is supposed to be, God looks inside and sees your heart, right?
事情应该是这样的，神看你的内心，看到你的心，对吧？
That's the premise.
这是前提。
And that's how it's supposed to be.
事情本来就应该如此。
In 1977, word got out about the Pounds Off program to people who didn't go to Oral Roberts.
1977 年，关于“减磅”计划的消息传遍了那些没有去奥罗·罗伯茨学院的人。
The university wants to know what percentage of a student's weight is fat.
大学想知道学生体重中脂肪的比例是多少。
The Today Show , ABC, the BBC-- news crews arrived on campus to film the students doing their aerobics and sit in on special lectures for the fat kids.
《今日秀》、美国广播公司、英国广播公司的新闻工作人员来到校园拍摄学生们的健美操，并旁听针对胖孩子的特别讲座。
You know, in the book of Romans, Paul says that all-- 8:28's the verse in case you want to look it up-- all things work together for good to those that love God, who are the called according to His purpose.
你知道，在《罗马书》中，保罗说万事都互相效力，叫爱神的人得益处，就是按他旨意被召的人，万事都互相效力。
Now, my goodness, how can anything like fat be good?
现在，天哪，像脂肪这样的东西怎么可能是好的呢？
And how can God have purpose in a person being fat?
上帝怎么可能对一个人肥胖有目的呢？
In one report, the camera shows this guy, an overweight student, sitting shirtless in the lab.
在一份报告中，摄像机显示这个人是一名超重的学生，赤裸上身坐在实验室里。
A woman in a white coat grabs his belly fat with a set of calipers during the interview.
采访时，一名身穿白大褂的女士用卡尺夹住他腹部的脂肪。
How much weight have you lost in this Pounds Off program?
您在这个减磅计划中减掉了多少体重？
I've lost 25 pounds since last summer, Julie.
朱莉，自去年夏天以来我已经减掉了 25 磅。
Well, I'm thrilled with it.
嗯，我对此很兴奋。
It's changed my life already.
它已经改变了我的生活。
I didn't have the incentive without this program to do it on my own.
如果没有这个程序，我就没有动力自己去做这件事。
In fact, without this program, I don't think I could survive, because I'd feel like-- I've just been reborn, actually.
事实上，如果没有这个程序，我认为我无法生存，因为我感觉——实际上，我刚刚重生了。
Born again by losing weight.
通过减肥重获新生。
The newscasters made it seem like this was some crazy Christian thing.
新闻播音员让这看起来像是一些疯狂的基督教事件。
But it wasn't really all that strange.
但这其实并没有那么奇怪。
Paul Brynteson may have taught what he called God's diet plan to the kids at Oral Roberts.
保罗·布林特森可能向奥罗·罗伯茨的孩子们传授了他所谓的上帝饮食计划。
But by the mid-'70s, diet plans were as ubiquitous as they are today.
但到了 70 年代中期，节食计划就像今天一样普遍存在。
Then, as now, being fat was not just seen by lots of people as a medical failing, but a moral one.
当时和现在一样，肥胖不仅被很多人视为一种医学上的失败，而且还被视为一种道德上的失败。
That if you're fat, you must be lazy or lack self-discipline, that there's something wrong with our country that so many of us can't control our weight.
如果你胖，你一定是懒惰或缺乏自律，我们国家有问题，我们很多人都无法控制自己的体重。
As I looked into the history of weight loss culture, I came across this amazing tape of John F.
当我研究减肥文化的历史时，我偶然发现了约翰·肯尼迪 (John F.
Kennedy from a speech he gave on child welfare in 1962 and sounding not so different from Oral Roberts.
肯尼迪在 1962 年发表的关于儿童福利的演讲中，听起来与奥罗·罗伯茨并没有太大不同。
There is nothing, I think, more unfortunate than to have soft, chubby, fat-looking children who go to watch their school play basketball every Saturday and regard that as their week's exercise.
我认为，没有什么比拥有那些软弱、胖乎乎、胖乎乎的孩子更不幸的了，他们每周六都去学校看篮球比赛，并将其视为一周的锻炼。
But as people grew more obsessed with being thin, there was a backlash.
但随着人们越来越痴迷于变瘦，出现了强烈的抵制。
So when the Pounds Off program started making headlines, plenty of people said it was discrimination.
因此，当“减磅”计划开始成为头条新闻时，很多人表示这是歧视。
And plenty of others said basically, sure, it's discrimination but in a good way, like it could inspire lazy people to get in shape.
还有很多人说，基本上，当然，这是一种歧视，但以一种好的方式，就像它可以激励懒惰的人塑身一样。
The ACLU got involved.
美国公民自由联盟介入其中。
Paul was shaken up.
保罗震惊了。
He talked to my producer Zoe about this.
他和我的制片人佐伊谈论了这件事。
Were you afraid it would be hurtful to them?
你害怕这会伤害到他们吗？
Yes.
是的。
That's a really good way to put it.
这是一个非常好的表达方式。
What were you nervous about?
你紧张什么？
Paul Brynteson I think every individual is different.
保罗·布林特森 我认为每个人都是不同的。
For some individuals, I suppose if they were four pounds over and they didn't meet a goal that they were supposed to meet, not allowing them back in school-- for some individuals that could be a turning point where they could change their life around, and that would never happen again.
对于某些人来说，我想如果他们体重增加了四磅，并且没有达到他们应该达到的目标，就不允许他们重返学校——对于某些人来说，这可能是一个转折点，他们可以改变自己的生活，而这种情况永远不会再发生。
For other individuals, that can be a devastating experience that they never recover from.
对于其他人来说，这可能是一次毁灭性的经历，他们永远无法从中恢复过来。
And who's to know which way that decision is going to go?
谁知道这个决定会朝哪个方向发展？
And so at this point in my life, I'd say I would err on the side of, let's not hurt somebody.
所以在我生命的这个阶段，我会说我会犯错误，我们不要伤害别人。
Oral Roberts still has a physical fitness requirement.
奥罗·罗伯茨还是有体能要求的。
Students there still have to collect aerobics points.
那里的学生还要收集健美操积分。
But they're not required to lose weight.
但他们并不需要减肥。
When we asked the school about the Pounds Off program, the current administration said they hadn't heard of it.
当我们向学校询问有关“减磅”计划时，现任政府表示他们没有听说过。
They said it was super difficult to comprehend that such a thing had existed.
他们说很难理解这种东西的存在。
But I don't think it's difficult at all.
但我认为这根本不难。
Stuff like this is all around us.
这样的事情在我们身边随处可见。
Oral Roberts just made it more explicit.
奥罗·罗伯茨只是让它变得更加明确。
Daniel Engber.
丹尼尔·恩格贝尔.
He writes about obesity for Slate magazine and The New York Times .
他为《Slate》杂志和《纽约时报》撰写有关肥胖的文章。
[MUSIC - BETTY FORD BOYS, "PHYSICAL FITNESS"]
[音乐 - 贝蒂·福特男孩，“身体健康”]
Act Five, An Immodest Proposal.
第五幕，一个不谦虚的提议。
So here in the podcast and the internet version of our radio show this week, we are adding this.
因此，在本周的广播节目的播客和互联网版本中，我们添加了这一点。
I just thought it would be nice to end the show with one last anecdote from Lindy West's book.
我只是觉得用 Lindy West 书中的最后一个轶事来结束这个节目会很好。
And this is kind of an uplifting one.
这是一种令人振奋的事情。
I hope that's not bad to say.
我希望这样说还不错。
Lindy is married to this guy, Aham, and raising his kids with him.
林迪嫁给了阿汉姆，并和他一起抚养孩子。
And as she points out in the book, he is conventionally handsome, very tall.
正如她在书中指出的那样，他通常很英俊，很高。
And when the two of them are out together, sometimes people assume that because he is slim and good-looking and she is fat that they're not a couple.
而当他们两个一起出去的时候，有时人们会因为他又瘦又好看而她又胖而认为他们不是情侣。
Even if they're at a bar holding hands, looking exactly like a couple, people say stuff to them like, so you guys roommates?
即使他们在酒吧里手牵手，看起来就像一对情侣，人们也会对他们说“你们是室友吗？”
Women hit on him in front of Lindy.
女人当着林迪的面搭讪他。
She read for me-- and this is what we're going to close out with today-- the story of their engagement.
她给我读了他们订婚的故事——这就是我们今天要结束的内容。
Aham took me out for dinner on my 32nd birthday, then suggested a quick nightcap at our neighborhood bar.
在我 32 岁生日那天，Aham 带我出去吃晚饭，然后建议我在附近的酒吧喝一杯睡前小酒。
Everyone was there.
每个人都在那里。
It was a surprise.
这是一个惊喜。
Our friends, our families, the kids, a cake.
我们的朋友，我们的家人，孩子们，一块蛋糕。
Aham took my hand and led me to the back.
阿罕拉着我的手，带我到后面。
There was a paper banner that said my name.
有一个纸横幅写着我的名字。
Our friends Evan and Sam were playing a duet on cello and bass.
我们的朋友埃文和萨姆正在用大提琴和贝斯演奏二重奏。
I was confused.
我很困惑。
Why were there somber strings at my birthday party?
为什么我的生日聚会上有阴郁的弦乐？
Why was Aham doing intense face?
为什么阿汉姆表情紧张？
Wait, it's almost 10:00 PM on a school night, and we're at a bar.
等等，学校晚上已经快晚上 10:00 了，我们在一家酒吧。
Why are the kids here?
孩子们为什么在这里？
Then it all happened at once-- the knee, the ring, the speech, the question, the tears-- all the hits.
然后这一切都同时发生了——膝盖、戒指、演讲、问题、眼泪——所有的打击。
It was a full-blown grand gesture.
这是一个全面的宏伟姿态。
Later, I asked him why he did it that way-- such a big spectacle, such an event, not precisely our style.
后来我问他为什么这么做，这么大的场面，这么大的活动，不完全是我们的风格。
And I expected something cliche but sweet like, "I wanted to make sure our community was part of our marriage," or, "I wanted everyone to know how much I love you."
我期待一些陈词滥调但甜蜜的东西，比如“我想确保我们的社区是我们婚姻的一部分”，或者“我想让每个人都知道我有多爱你。”
Instead, he said, one time, when you were drunk, you told me, "if you ever propose to me, don't do it in the bullshit way that dudes usually treat fat girls-- like it's a secret, or you're just trying to keep me from leaving you.
相反，他说，有一次，当你喝醉的时候，你告诉我，“如果你向我求婚，不要用男人通常对待胖女孩的那种狗屎方式——就像这是一个秘密，或者你只是想阻止我离开你。
Thin girls get public proposals, like those dudes are winning a fucking prize.
瘦女孩会得到公开求婚，就像那些家伙赢得了一个他妈的奖品一样。
Fat chicks deserve that too."
胖妞也值得这样。”
Our program was produced today by Susan Burton, Elna Baker.
今天我们的节目由苏珊·伯顿、埃尔娜·贝克制作。
Our production staff-- Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Karen Duffin, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lyra Smith, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
我们的制作人员包括 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Karen Duffin、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lyra Smith、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike。
Our editor's Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Editorial help from Julie Snyder.
朱莉·斯奈德的编辑帮助。
Research help from Christopher Swetala.
克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉 (Christopher Swetala) 提供研究帮助。
Musical help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
达米恩·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
Our website-- thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站——thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life was delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, he just loves a conference room.
你知道，他只是喜欢会议室。
You know what I'm talking about-- the big table, the white board.
你知道我在说什么——大桌子，白板。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - CHARLIE DORE, "BIG BONED GIRL"]
[音乐 - 查理·多尔，“大骨头女孩”]
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。