586: Who Do We Think We Are? - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #586 | May 6, 2016 586: Who Do We Think We Are?
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 586 集 | 2016 年 5 月 6 日 586：我们认为自己是谁？
Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Sean Cole From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言 Sean Cole 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Sean Cole.
我是肖恩·科尔。
Ira Glass is going to be back next week.
艾拉·格拉斯将于下周回归。
So Ted Cruz dropped out of the race this week for president, and a lot of Republican voters were thrilled.
因此，特德·克鲁兹退出了本周的总统竞选，许多共和党选民都感到兴奋。
But a lot of them were heartbroken and confused, asking themselves a lot of questions about themselves and their party and what they stand for.
但他们中的很多人感到心碎和困惑，问自己很多关于自己、他们的政党以及他们的立场的问题。
And I wanted to talk with my colleague Zoe Chace because she'd been doing a lot of campaign coverage for the show, talking to Cruz supporters.
我想和我的同事佐伊·查斯谈谈，因为她一直在为该节目做大量的竞选报道，与克鲁兹的支持者交谈。
Yeah, I was worried about the Cruz supporters, to be honest.
是的，说实话，我很担心克鲁兹的支持者。
Some people had been waiting for 30 years for somebody like Ted Cruz to get as far as he did-- this strong, Christian, very conservative evangelical candidate.
有些人已经等待了 30 年，等待像特德·克鲁兹这样的人取得像他这样的成就——这位坚强的、基督教的、非常保守的福音派候选人。
And there was one guy I knew that might be pretty heartbroken, and I wanted to check in with him.
我知道有一个人可能非常伤心，我想向他了解一下。
I had to call Tony.
我不得不打电话给托尼。
Tony Beam is a radio host in South Carolina.
托尼·比姆 (Tony Beam) 是南卡罗来纳州的一名电台主持人。
Conservative, evangelical Christian talk radio.
保守的福音派基督教谈话电台。
Remember, we did a story on Tony a couple months ago.
请记住，几个月前我们做了一个关于托尼的故事。
And the issue was that when his evangelical listeners started embracing Donald Trump, Tony felt betrayed and confused and upset.
问题是，当他的福音派听众开始拥抱唐纳德·特朗普时，托尼感到被背叛、困惑和不安。
So how is he taking the news?
那么他如何看待这个消息呢？
Zoe Chace He couldn't even bring himself to watch it on TV.
Zoe Chace 他甚至无法让自己在电视上观看。
My wife told me.
我妻子告诉我的。
This is exactly what happened.
这正是所发生的事情。
I was sitting in the living room, playing the guitar, when my wife got home last night.
昨晚我妻子回家时，我正坐在客厅里弹吉他。
And she put-- because I hadn't turned any of this stuff on.
她放了——因为我没有打开任何这些东西。
I knew what it was going to be.
我知道会发生什么。
I couldn't take the Trump edition of Fox News.
我无法接受特朗普版的福克斯新闻。
So I'm sitting there playing the guitar, and she came in and put her hand on my shoulder and said, "I'm really sorry.
所以我坐在那里弹吉他，她走进来，把手放在我的肩膀上说：“我真的很抱歉。
I just heard that Cruz dropped out."
我刚刚听说克鲁兹退学了。”
What song were you playing?
你演奏的是什么歌？
Tony Beam I'm just learning.
托尼·比姆 我只是在学习。
Believe it or not, I'm 58 years old, and I'm trying to learn to play the guitar.
不管你信不信，我已经 58 岁了，我正在努力学习弹吉他。
So I was playing a little Creedence Clearwater Revival because I'm a big John Fogerty fan.
所以我玩了一点 Creedence Clearwater Revival 因为我是 John Fogerty 的忠实粉丝。
So I was playing "Have You Ever Seen the Rain?"
所以我在玩“你见过雨吗？”
[MUSIC - "HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE RAIN?"]
[音乐-“你见过雨吗？”]
It occurs to me, Zoe, that a lot of people who were upset about this, they can sort of just go hide or drink somewhere.
佐伊，我想到很多对此感到不安的人，他们可以躲起来或找个地方喝酒。
And he has to be on the radio, upset.
他必须在广播中心烦意乱。
He has to go on the radio, live, at 7:00 in the morning with all his feelings.
他必须在早上 7:00 带着自己的全部感受去广播电台现场直播。
"All right, good morning, everybody.
“好吧，大家早上好。
The world keeps turning."
世界一直在转动。”
I cracked the microphone and I said, OK, it's a Trump kind of day.
我打开麦克风说，好吧，今天是特朗普式的一天。
The Trumpists are trumpeting.
特朗普主义者正在吹嘘。
And so here's my question to you listening to the show.
这是我向正在收听节目的你们提出的问题。
"The question of the day is, are you going to vote for Hillary or one of her top donors?"
“今天的问题是，你会投票给希拉里还是她的最大捐助者之一？”
"That's pretty much the choice that we're left with.
“这几乎就是我们剩下的选择。
We've got Hillary or a Hillary supporter.
我们有希拉里或希拉里的支持者。
So there you go."
那么就这样吧。”
Tony is never going to get behind Donald Trump.
托尼永远不会支持唐纳德·特朗普。
He sees him as a fake conservative.
他认为他是一个假保守派。
He's just an opportunist.
他只是一个机会主义者。
He doesn't share his values.
他不认同他的价值观。
Zoe Chace Right, he just grabs principles when he wants them and then just drops them when he doesn't anymore.
Zoe Chace 是的，他只是在需要时抓住原则，然后在不再需要时放弃它们。
Right.
正确的。
Zoe Chace Tony has built his entire life around Christian values, and he doesn't think that Trump has those.
佐伊·切斯·托尼一生都围绕基督教价值观建立，他认为特朗普没有这些价值观。
And now he's in this situation where he's looking ahead over the next couple months.
现在他正处于这种情况，他正在展望未来几个月。
He has a live radio show, two hours every single day.
他有一个现场广播节目，每天两个小时。
He's going to be dealing with this.
他要处理这件事。
So I asked him, Tony, what is the plan?
所以我问他，托尼，有什么计划吗？
How are you going to handle this on the radio?
你打算如何在广播中处理这个问题？
I'm just going to talk about what's going on.
我只是谈谈正在发生的事情。
It's going to be kind of like there's been a wreck.
有点像发生了沉船事故。
And I'm going to describe it.
我将描述它。
You know, the rescue efforts.
你知道，救援工作。
Like you're reporting on a big natural disaster or something.
就像您正在报道一场重大自然灾害或其他事情一样。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Zoe Chace What do you think your listeners want you to do?
Zoe Chace 你认为你的听众希望你做什么？
What are they looking for from you?
他们想从你这里寻找什么？
Unity.
统一。
Hold hands.
握着手。
Sing "Kumbaya." And to be fair, listen, I've been much more conservative than our nominee for the last three or four cycles.
唱“昆巴亚”。公平地说，听着，在过去的三四个周期中，我比我们的提名人保守得多。
Yeah, Romney, John McCain, Bob Dole.
是的，罗姆尼、约翰·麦凯恩、鲍勃·多尔。
So I've always told people, look, the primary is where we make a decision as a party.
所以我总是告诉人们，看，主要是我们作为一个政党做出决定的地方。
And then we've got to come together and vote for the nominee.
然后我们必须聚集在一起投票选出提名人。
And so now I've got people pounding on me.
所以现在有人在攻击我。
Well, you're a big hypocrite because your man lost, and now you won't unify.
好吧，你是个大伪君子，因为你的人输了，现在你们不会团结起来。
You won't get behind Trump.
你不会支持特朗普。
Well, to me it's a completely different scenario.
嗯，对我来说这是一个完全不同的场景。
I've never felt like I was voting for the lesser of two evils.
我从来没有觉得我是在两害相权取其轻。
I didn't think those guys were evil.
我不认为那些人是坏人。
I thought they were different from me.
我以为他们和我不一样。
I wished they were more conservative.
我希望他们更加保守。
That wasn't my top pick.
那不是我的首选。
I mean, I can't vote for Donald Trump for president.
我的意思是，我不能投票给唐纳德·特朗普当总统。
So when you did the first story, there was this guy.
所以当你做第一个故事时，就有这个人。
Barry.
巴里.
Sean Cole Yes, Barry, who was like the Trump interpreter.
肖恩·科尔 是的，巴里，他就像特朗普的翻译。
Yeah, he called Tony all the time to harass him about Donald Trump.
是的，他一直打电话给托尼，骚扰他有关唐纳德·特朗普的事情。
Of course.
当然。
He called the morning after Cruz had dropped out.
克鲁兹退学后的第二天早上，他就打来电话。
Tony said, of course Barry called him and tried to sell him on Trump and party unity.
托尼说，巴里当然打电话给他，并试图向他推销特朗普和政党团结。
Barry and I, look, we have a good relationship.
巴里和我，看，我们的关系很好。
And he was telling me-- he said, "man, there's room for you, brother.
他告诉我——他说，“兄弟，这里有你的位置。
You can get on the Trump train with me." He said, it's not-- because I played the sound bite where Trump was talking about unity and we're going to love everybody.
你可以和我一起登上特朗普列车。”他说，这不是——因为我播放了特朗普谈论团结的原声片段，我们会爱每个人。
"This country, which is very, very divided in so many different ways, is going to become one beautiful, loving country.
“这个在许多不同方面非常非常分裂的国家将成为一个美丽、充满爱心的国家。
And we're going to love each other.
我们会彼此相爱。
We're going to cherish each other.
我们要好好珍惜彼此。
We're going to take care of each other.
我们会互相照顾。
And we're going to have--"
我们将会——”
And then Barry said, "yeah, man, this is not the Trump Train.
然后巴里说：“是的，伙计，这不是特朗普列车。
This is the Love Train.
这就是爱情列车。
You've got to get on board."
你必须上船。”
"It's not the Trump Train anymore.
“这不再是特朗普列车了。
It's the Love Train."
这就是爱情列车。”
"Bob, you've got to find-- I've got Bob over here.
“鲍勃，你必须找到——我让鲍勃在这儿。
Bob's got to find "The Love Train" by The O'Jays.
鲍勃必须找到奥杰斯乐队的《爱情列车》。
So we'll pull that up in just a minute.
所以我们会在一分钟内把它拉出来。
We're going to have another Woodstock.
我们还将举办另一场伍德斯托克音乐节。
I mean, it's going to be 1969 all over where there will be people singing, are you going to San Francisco?
我的意思是，到了 1969 年，到处都会有人唱，你要去旧金山吗？
It's going to be a Republican love-in.
这将是共和党的爱情。
Not."
不。”
Tony remembers those first Republican debates when Trump was talking and saying all this outlandish stuff.
托尼还记得第一次共和党辩论时，特朗普正在谈论并说出所有这些稀奇古怪的东西。
And his listeners were calling in and being like, we love this guy, and this guy is speaking for me.
他的听众打来电话说，我们爱这个人，这个人正在为我说话。
And it just felt so viscerally wrong to him, like he was like, this is not who we are.
他感觉自己内心深处很不对劲，就好像我们不是这样的人一样。
This is not who we Republicans are.
这不是我们共和党人。
And then he wakes up one morning, and Cruz is out.
然后有一天早上他醒来，克鲁兹出去了。
Today I have to face the fact that maybe that is who we are.
今天我必须面对这样一个事实：也许这就是我们。
I mean, you realize 6-- what was it?
我的意思是，你知道 6——那是什么？
You've probably seen the numbers.
您可能已经看过这些数字。
6 or 7 out of 10 Republicans-- I think it's been consistently 6 out of 10 agree that we ought to ban all Muslims from coming to the United States.
十分之六的共和党人——我认为十分之六的共和党人一直同意我们应该禁止所有穆斯林来到美国。
And so maybe this whole thing is a collective voice saying to me, you think this is not who we are?
所以也许这整件事是一个集体的声音对我说，你认为这不是我们是谁？
Yeah, it is.
是的，确实如此。
Wake up, dude.
醒醒吧，伙计。
This is--
这是——
I have an atheist that calls me pretty regularly.
我有一个无神论者，他经常给我打电话。
And he gives me what for on the issues, particularly moral issues.
他告诉我这些问题的意义，特别是道德问题。
But we've had some pretty good give-and-takes too, philosophically.
但从哲学上来说，我们也进行了一些很好的交换。
But one of the questions he always puts to me is, how does it feel to be on the wrong side of history?
但他总是问我的一个问题是，站在历史的错误一边感觉如何？
And my answer has always been, a lot better than it would feel to be on the wrong side of eternity.
我的答案一直是，比站在永恒的对立面要好得多。
My values are deeper than the culture of the moment.
我的价值观比当下的文化更深刻。
And I don't mean that in a-- golly, that sounded-- I don't mean that in an arrogant way.
我的意思并不是——天哪，这听起来——我的意思并不是傲慢。
I mean it in a broken way that says, I realize that I may be swimming against the tide.
我的意思是，以一种破碎的方式说，我意识到我可能正在逆流而上。
So are you a Republican?
那么你是共和党人吗？
Tony Beam Yeah, I'm still a Republican today because I haven't done anything about it.
托尼·比姆：是的，我今天仍然是共和党人，因为我没有对此采取任何行动。
But it would break my heart to not be associated anymore.
但不再有联系会让我心碎。
I mean, some people can just walk away.
我的意思是，有些人可以走开。
I mean, it would break my heart.
我的意思是，这会让我心碎。
But I'm not going to stay in the Republican Party if the Republican Party is not going to be conservative and it's not going to stand for traditional values.
但如果共和党不保守、不代表传统价值观，我就不会留在共和党。
It's jarring when you're rolling along with a group of people, for years sometimes.
当你和一群人一起滚动时，有时会很不和谐。
They're like family.
他们就像家人一样。
And then you hit this one dividing point that makes you think, wait, is that who we are?
然后你就遇到了这个分界点，让你思考，等等，这就是我们吗？
Because if that's who we are, what does that say about who I am?
因为如果我们就是这样，那说明我是谁呢？
Even if the "we" is just you and one other person, it's hard.
即使“我们”只有你和另外一个人，这也很难。
And that's what our show is about today, in two acts-- two families with two very different contentions.
这就是我们今天的节目的主题，分两幕——两个家庭有两种截然不同的争论。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, "Whose Great Idea was This?" This first story deals with something controversial that's covered now and then in the news.
第一幕，“这是谁的好主意？”第一个故事涉及新闻中时不时报道的一些有争议的事情。
But this is the first time I've heard it talked about so personally as opposed to abstract and far away.
但这是我第一次听到如此个人化的谈论，而不是抽象和遥远的谈论。
It comes to us from Mariya Karimjee, and I'll let her explain what's at issue.
这是玛丽亚·卡里姆吉 (Mariya Karimjee) 向我们提供的，我会让她解释一下问题所在。
But I just want to say here that, as Ira sometimes says, this story does acknowledge the existence of sex, and it probably isn't right for young kids.
但我只想在这里说，正如艾拉有时所说的那样，这个故事确实承认性的存在，而且它可能不适合小孩子。
OK, here's Mariya.
好的，这是玛丽亚。
When I was in high school, my mother caught me reading a grocery store Harlequin novel in my room.
当我上高中时，我妈妈发现我在房间里读杂货店的丑角小说。
She raised one eyebrow as I shoved it under the covers.
当我把它塞到被子里时，她扬起一根眉毛。
It wasn't until weeks later, driving me somewhere, that she mentioned she'd seen it.
直到几周后，开车送我去某个地方时，她才提到她看到了它。
I remember the firm line of her mouth as she explained that sex was almost never a good feeling.
我记得当她解释说性几乎从来都不是一种好感觉时，她嘴角坚定的线条。
Don't go looking for that, she told me.
别去找那个，她告诉我。
That's almost never true.
这几乎从来都不是真的。
I hadn't had sex, but I had started to wonder about it.
我没有发生过性行为，但我开始对此感到好奇。
My mother said that she thought, for men, it was the way that they described it in the books.
我母亲说，她认为对于男人来说，这就是他们在书中描述的方式。
For us, she said, it's different.
她说，对我们来说，情况有所不同。
At the time, I assumed that by "us" she meant women in general.
当时，我认为她所说的“我们”指的是一般女性。
Later I wondered if she meant her and me specifically.
后来我想她是不是特指她和我。
When I was seven years old and living in Karachi, Pakistan, my mother took me to the pediatrician.
当我七岁时住在巴基斯坦卡拉奇时，我母亲带我去看儿科医生。
While I sat on a stool, polishing imaginary dirt off the buckles on my Mary Janes, my mother quietly asked if it was time for me to get the bug removed.
当我坐在凳子上，擦掉玛丽珍鞋带扣上的想象中的污垢时，我母亲悄悄地问我是否该把虫子除掉了。
According to my mother, a bug was growing in an egg down there-- her language, not mine-- and that it would hatch and eventually crawl to my brain unless we removed it, she said.
据我母亲说，那里的一个鸡蛋里正在生长一只虫子——她的语言，不是我的——而且它会孵化并最终爬到我的大脑中，除非我们把它移走，她说。
My pediatrician agreed.
我的儿科医生同意了。
It was time to see the woman who removes the bug.
是时候去看看那位清除虫子的女人了。
A girl down the street that I'd grown up with had her bug removed, my grandmother told me.
我祖母告诉我，街上的一个和我一起长大的女孩的虫子被移除了。
She was also seven, and after she came home from the operation, she felt fine, enough so to jump up and down on her bed.
她也七岁了，手术回家后，她感觉很好，可以在床上跳来跳去。
It was a story my grandmother told with enthusiasm.
这是我祖母充满热情地讲述的一个故事。
My older cousins, both girls, were each presented with a piece of gold jewelry when they returned home from their respective operations.
我的表姐妹都是女孩，当她们结束各自的手术回到家时，她们每人都收到了一件金首饰。
Remembering this, I asked specifically for a simple gold chain with a teardrop pearl at the end.
记住这一点，我特意要了一条简单的金链，末端有一颗泪珠珍珠。
I did not feel well enough to go around jumping on beds after my surgery.
手术后，我感觉不太舒服，无法在床上跳来跳去。
For two days, I wore what I can only describe as a big-girl diaper, wet with blood.
两天来，我穿着我只能形容为大女孩尿布的东西，沾满了血。
Peeing was so painful that I tried to last for hours without going, until my mother explained that I could give myself an infection.
小便太痛苦了，我试图连续几个小时不去小便，直到我妈妈解释说我可能会让自己受到感染。
For the next year, I'd break out into a cold sweat whenever I saw the kind-faced woman who, on a tarp on her living room floor, had spoken to me softly as she took a knife and cut me.
接下来的一年里，每当我看到那个面容慈祥的女人，她在客厅地板上的防水布上轻声对我说话，然后拿着刀砍我时，我都会冒出一身冷汗。
I received the exact necklace I had requested and wore it all the time.
我收到了我要求的项链，并一直戴着它。
Soon after my 11th birthday, my parents, brother, and I moved to Texas.
我 11 岁生日后不久，我和父母、兄弟搬到了德克萨斯州。
The Houston area, where we lived, happened to have a decent number of Muslims from the same sect we belonged to in Pakistan.
我们居住的休斯敦地区碰巧有相当数量的穆斯林，他们与我们在巴基斯坦属于同一教派。
We're called Dawoodi Bohra.
我们叫 Dawoodi Bohra。
But unlike many of the other immigrant families we knew, my parents wanted my brother and I to fully assimilate into the world we'd moved into.
但与我们认识的许多其他移民家庭不同，我的父母希望我和我的兄弟完全融入我们搬进的世界。
They encouraged us to sign up for any activities.
他们鼓励我们报名参加任何活动。
They enrolled us in summer camps and group sports.
他们让我们参加夏令营和团体运动。
My mom in particular really saw the benefit of raising me in the US.
我妈妈尤其看到了在美国抚养我的好处。
She was worried that in Karachi I'd always be in the shadow of my younger brother.
她担心我在卡拉奇永远活在弟弟的阴影下。
Boys are valued more than girls in a lot of ways there.
在很多方面，男孩比女孩更受重视。
My family has always been close, but the move to the US cemented our closeness.
我的家人一直很亲密，但搬到美国巩固了我们的亲密关系。
But when I was 15, I overheard a woman at my mosque asking the woman next to her if her daughter had the operation already.
但当我 15 岁的时候，我无意中听到清真寺里的一名妇女询问她旁边的妇女，她的女儿是否已经接受了手术。
Her question nudged something deep in my brain.
她的问题触动了我大脑深处的某些东西。
Until that point, I honestly hadn't thought about my operation-- my bug.
在那之前，老实说我还没有考虑过我的操作——我的错误。
At that moment, the kind-faced woman came back to me.
就在这时，那个面容慈祥的女人回到了我身边。
I could hear her comforting tone as she told me it would be over quickly.
我可以听到她安慰的语气，因为她告诉我一切很快就会结束。
I'm not sure what I googled, but soon after returning home from mosque, I had words to describe what I thought had happened to me.
我不确定我在谷歌上搜索了什么，但从清真寺回家后不久，我用文字描述了我认为发生在我身上的事情。
Female genital cutting.
女性生殖器切割。
Female genital circumcision.
女性生殖器包皮环切术。
Clitorectomy.
阴蒂切除术。
Female genital mutilation, or FGM.
女性生殖器切割（FGM）。
I sat with my copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves that my American aunt had given me.
我坐在那儿，手里拿着我的美国姨妈送给我的《我们的身体，我们自己》。
The book has photos and diagrams of female genitalia, and suggests using a mirror to be able to see and understand your body better.
这本书有女性生殖器的照片和图表，并建议使用镜子能够更好地看到和了解自己的身体。
Locked in my bathroom with a hand mirror between my legs, I realized that there was no diagram in the book that could explain what I saw.
我被锁在浴室里，两腿之间夹着一面手镜，我意识到书中没有图表可以解释我所看到的一切。
It was really confusing.
真是令人困惑。
Over the next few weeks, I continued searching for information on FGM online.
在接下来的几周里，我继续在网上搜索有关女性生殖器切割的信息。
Mainly I found articles about small tribal villages in Africa where girls sometimes had their labia sewn shut, and where infections, fistulas, and sometimes death could happen.
我主要发现了有关非洲小部落村庄的文章，那里的女孩有时会缝合阴唇，那里可能会发生感染、瘘管，有时甚至会导致死亡。
I could see that what had happened to me was different from the cases I was reading about online.
我发现我的遭遇和我在网上看到的案例不一样。
That's when I decided to search for FGM with the name of my particular sect, Dawoodi Bohra.
就在那时，我决定以我的特定教派 Dawoodi Bohra 的名称来搜索女性生殖器切割。
One lonely academic article came up, titled "The Practice of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims." That was it.
一篇孤独的学术文章出现了，题为“博赫拉穆斯林女性割礼的实践”。就是这样。
Once I'd linked FGM to my culture, I was consumed by anger.
一旦我将女性生殖器切割与我的文化联系起来，我就被愤怒所吞噬。
I couldn't believe both that it had happened to me and that it had been completely ignored as a topic of discussion by my friends, by my religion, and above all by my own family.
我不敢相信这件事发生在我身上，而且它被我的朋友、我的宗教信仰、尤其是我自己的家人完全忽视作为讨论的话题。
Why hadn't anyone said anything, especially my mother?
为什么没有人说什么，尤其是我的母亲？
She'd done this.
她做到了这一点。
For the next several weeks, I didn't say anything to my mom about it.
接下来的几个星期，我没有对妈妈说过这件事。
I'd go back and forth between being furious at her and remembering her cool hand on my forehead after I peed for the first time after being cut.
我时而对她感到愤怒，时而想起在我被割伤后第一次撒尿后，她那冰凉的手放在我的额头上。
When I finally brought it up, the two of us were cleaning my bathroom.
当我最终提起这件事时，我们两个人正在打扫我的浴室。
I was standing in the tub, a roll of steel wool in my hand.
我站在浴缸里，手里拿着一卷钢丝绒。
I hadn't meant to talk to her about it, but I was angry-cleaning and running out of things to scrub.
我本来不想和她谈论这件事，但我很生气——打扫卫生却没有东西可以擦洗。
"What exactly was that bug thing you told me about?" My mother made a face I didn't recognize and didn't know how to interpret.
“你告诉我的那个虫子到底是什么？”我妈妈做了个我不认识的表情，也不知道如何解释。
First, I was terrified that my question made no sense, that I'd have to clarify further.
首先，我很害怕我的问题毫无意义，我必须进一步澄清。
Then I realized I was even more scared that it had made perfect sense.
然后我意识到我更害怕它完全有道理。
My mother's explanation came out as fumbled as my question, something about how women shouldn't be sexual, and shortening my clitoris.
我母亲的解释和我的问题一样笨拙，比如女人不应该有性行为，以及缩短我的阴蒂。
"You removed the part of me that makes me feel good while having sex?" I asked.
“你把我身上让我在做爱时感觉良好的部分去掉了？”我问。
I was 15 and armed with Our Bodies, Ourselves and some internet articles.
我当时 15 岁，拥有《我们的身体、我们自己》和一些互联网文章。
I thought I knew.
我以为我知道。
I thought I appreciated exactly what had been taken away from me.
我以为我很感激从我身上夺走的一切。
It'd take me another five years to realize I had no idea.
我又花了五年时间才意识到我不知道。
"I didn't have a choice," said my mother, "and it happened to me too.
“我别无选择，”妈妈说，“这也发生在我身上。
All seven-year-old Bohri girls have to go through this," she said.
所有七岁的博赫里女孩都必须经历这个，”她说。
I slammed the door shut in her face and waited.
我当着她的面关上了门，等待着。
She didn't try and open it back up.
她没有尝试重新打开它。
I couldn't understand how my mother-- the woman who made sure I got all the same opportunities as my brother, who cried when I told her I needed a training bra for gym and then got me one anyway, who attended every free seminar about preparing her children for college-- how could she be the same person who'd watched as a stranger cut me?
我无法理解我的母亲——那个确保我得到和我哥哥一样的机会的女人，当我告诉她我需要一件去健身房的训练胸罩时她哭了，然后无论如何都给我买了一件，她参加了所有关于为她的孩子上大学做准备的免费研讨会——她怎么会是那个看着一个陌生人割伤我的人呢？
I learned what it was like to love someone without forgiving them.
我明白了爱一个人而不原谅他们是什么感觉。
My college roommate and I would never be close.
我和我的大学室友永远不会亲近。
One night, as I highlighted a sociology text, my roommate asked me if I masturbated.
一天晚上，当我突出显示一篇社会学课文时，我的室友问我是否自慰。
I sputtered, "no." "You should try it," she told me.
我结结巴巴地说：“不。” “你应该尝试一下，”她告诉我。
She moved off her twin bed and onto the corner of mine.
她从她的单人床上搬到了我的床角上。
"Don't be so prude," she said when I cringed.
“别这么拘谨，”当我畏缩时她说道。
I attended a small all-women's liberal arts college in western Massachusetts, Mount Holyoke, and it was a far cry from the conservative, Baptist, perfectly-coiffed Texas girls I knew as friends in high school.
我就读于马萨诸塞州西部芒特霍利奥克的一所小型女子文理学院，这与我在高中时认识的保守的、浸信会的、发型完美的德克萨斯州女孩相去甚远。
I could never really confide in them.
我永远无法真正信任他们。
But to my college roommate, I inexplicably opened up.
但对大学室友，我却莫名地敞开心扉。
I told her everything I could think of.
我把我能想到的都告诉了她。
I confessed that I had no idea what it meant to have a clitorectomy, that I had no idea of the extent of the damage.
我承认我不知道阴蒂切除术意味着什么，我不知道损害的程度。
I explained about the girls in the African villages and the pictures of their labia sewn shut, making clear that this wasn't my situation.
我解释了非洲村庄里的女孩和她们缝合阴唇的照片，明确表示这不是我的情况。
She smoothed my back, chewing on her lip.
她抚平我的背，咬着嘴唇。
In the months that followed, we didn't get closer.
接下来的几个月里，我们并没有走得更近。
We never talked like that again.
我们再也没有那样说话过。
Every few days, though, she encouraged me to go see a gynecologist at the school.
不过，每隔几天，她就会鼓励我去学校看妇科医生。
Before going home for the summer, I made an appointment at student health services.
在回家过暑假之前，我预约了学生健康服务。
20 minutes after walking in, I was in stirrups.
走进去20分钟后，我就上了马镫。
If you're listening right now with small children, they may not want to hear this next part.
如果您现在正在和小孩子一起听，他们可能不想听下一部分。
When the doctor finally arrived, she sat down between my legs, murmuring something about a pap smear.
当医生终于到达时，她坐在我的两腿之间，低声说了一些关于子宫颈抹片检查的事情。
"Let's have a look," she said.
“让我们看看，”她说。
I clamped my knees together and started bawling.
我双膝并拢，开始嚎啕大哭。
The doctor didn't miss a beat.
医生没有错过任何一个节拍。
"Why don't you sit right up, and let's talk about any questions you may have." She had questions of her own too.
“你为什么不坐起来，让我们谈谈你可能有的任何问题。”她也有自己的疑问。
"When did this happen?" "How long did it hurt?" "Are you able to wipe yourself with toilet paper without discomfort?"
“这是什么时候的事？” “痛了多久了？” “你能用卫生纸擦拭身体而不感到不适吗？”
The doctor admitted up front that she didn't know much, but said that taking a closer look might help her out.
医生事先承认她了解不多，但说仔细看看可能会对她有所帮助。
When I finally let her examine me, she let out a long, low breath.
当我终于让她检查我时，她长长地低低地呼了一口气。
For a few long moments, she looked without speaking.
她看了好一会儿，没有说话。
Then she asked me for my cell number.
然后她问我要手机号码。
She would ask around, see if anyone in the area knew more than she did.
她会四处打听，看看这个地区是否有人比她知道得更多。
"What I can tell you is that there's a lot of thin scar tissue," she said.
“我可以告诉你的是，有很多薄薄的疤痕组织，”她说。
"This doesn't look like a full clitorectomy," she added, explaining that while she'd never seen one before, it looked like a partial cut.
“这看起来不像是完整的阴蒂切除术，”她补充道，并解释说，虽然她以前从未见过，但它看起来像是部分切口。
"Did a medical professional do this?" she asked.
“这是专业医生做的吗？”她问道。
I didn't know, I admitted.
我不知道，我承认。
The question would linger with me, and for months I would weigh the consequences of asking my mother.
这个问题一直困扰着我，几个月来我一直在权衡询问母亲的后果。
Later, after I put my clothes on, she came back in to hug me.
后来我穿好衣服，她又进来抱我。
"Come see me anytime with any questions," she said.
“有任何问题随时来找我，”她说。
And before I could stop myself, I blurted out, can I ever have an orgasm?
在我阻止自己之前，我脱口而出，我能达到高潮吗？
She handed me a few printed pamphlets on healthy masturbation.
她递给我一些关于健康手淫的印刷小册子。
I figured out that getting to orgasm wasn't going to be easy.
我发现达到性高潮并不容易。
Even when I tried, any wrong move, any sudden accidental movement, would shoot an incredible pain inside of me.
即使我尝试了，任何错误的动作，任何突然的意外动作，都会让我内心感到难以置信的疼痛。
I hardly ever mention this-- to anyone.
我几乎从来没有向任何人提起过这一点。
Even when friends who knew my secret talked about sex, I would pretend I was just like them.
即使当朋友知道我的秘密谈论性时，我也会假装我和他们一样。
I'd assure them that I was hooking up randomly with people, same as they were.
我向他们保证我是在随意和人交往，就像他们一样。
It's ridiculous, I know, but I didn't know what to do.
我知道这很荒谬，但我不知道该怎么办。
When I finally started dating, it would take me months to let my boyfriend know why we weren't progressing past second base.
当我最终开始约会时，我花了几个月的时间才让我的男朋友知道为什么我们没有进步到二垒。
In his dorm room in DC, I took three shots of green apple vodka and then blurted out as much as I could.
在他位于华盛顿的宿舍里，我喝了三杯青苹果伏特加，然后尽可能地脱口而出。
My boyfriend silently listened, holding my hands as I spoke.
我男朋友静静地听我说话，握着我的手。
He didn't ask questions or try to break up with me.
他没有问我问题，也没有试图和我分手。
He told me he would wait until I was ready.
他告诉我他会等到我准备好为止。
I wondered if I would ever be ready.
我想知道我是否准备好。
After a year of dating him, I decided that I needed to get it over with.
与他约会一年后，我决定我需要结束这一切。
I broached the subject with my boyfriend.
我和男朋友提起了这个话题。
I wanted to have sex before the end of the summer.
我想在夏末之前做爱。
I don't want you to stop, even if I look like it's hurting me, I told him.
我不想让你停下来，即使我看起来很受伤，我告诉他。
He grimaced, but I repeated the statement again and then again.
他做了个鬼脸，但我一遍又一遍地重复这句话。
So one night, I drank a half a bottle of wine in 15 minutes as my boyfriend watched warily.
于是有一天晚上，我在男朋友警惕的注视下，在15分钟内喝掉了半瓶酒。
For a blissful 45 minutes, we made out on the couch, his hands staying in all of the safe spots, the ones that months of dating had taught him didn't make me clench up.
在幸福的 45 分钟里，我们在沙发上亲热，他的手放在所有安全的地方，几个月的约会教会他的那些并没有让我握紧。
The wine turned my limbs heavy.
酒让我的四肢变得沉重。
We moved from the couch to the bed.
我们从沙发搬到床上。
I closed my eyes, counting to control my heartbeat and the nausea welling up inside me.
我闭上眼睛，数数以控制自己的心跳和内心涌起的恶心。
Technically, we began having sex.
从技术上讲，我们开始发生性行为。
Pain shot up my body.
疼痛袭上我的全身。
I could feel it in my teeth and in the muscles of my jaw.
我可以在我的牙齿和下巴的肌肉中感受到它。
My insides felt like they were being sandpapered.
我的内心感觉就像被砂纸打磨了一样。
The pain was everywhere.
痛苦无处不在。
We didn't continue.
我们没有继续。
My boyfriend kissed my forehead, reminded me he loved me, and left for the bathroom.
我的男朋友吻了我的额头，提醒我他爱我，然后去了洗手间。
I sat in the bed and cried.
我坐在床上哭了。
I was still crying when my boyfriend came out of the bathroom.
当我男朋友从浴室出来时，我还在哭。
He took one look at me and then told me he was heading out to our favorite neighborhood bar.
他看了我一眼，然后告诉我他要去我们最喜欢的附近酒吧。
I know that sounds callous, but he knew that in moments of distress, I rarely wanted to be comforted.
我知道这听起来很冷酷，但他知道在痛苦的时刻，我很少想要得到安慰。
Then I called my mother.
然后我给妈妈打了电话。
"Is sex ever good for you?" I asked her.
“性对你有好处吗？”我问她。
There was a brief but important pause.
有一个短暂但重要的停顿。
I heard the click of a door and then her voice, clear, unmuffled.
我听到了门的咔哒声，然后是她的声音，清晰、清晰。
"Excuse me?" she asked.
“打扰一下？”她问道。
"I tried to have sex with my boyfriend," I said.
“我试图和我的男朋友发生性关系，”我说。
"It didn't go well.
“进展不顺利。
It hurt so bad that I'm not sure I ever want to try it again.
太疼了，我不确定我是否还想再尝试一次。
I know you don't think I should be having sex, but I'm so scared."
我知道你认为我不应该发生性关系，但我很害怕。”
What I didn't say out loud, but what my mother instinctively knew, was what I was so scared of.
我没有大声说出来，但我母亲本能地知道，这就是我如此害怕的事情。
It wasn't just that I was scared of sex but that because of that, true love would escape me forever, that I was unlovable.
这不仅是因为我害怕性，而且正因为如此，真爱将永远远离我，我不可爱。
She told me about how when she was a teenager, she saved up pocket change for Harlequin romances.
她告诉我，当她十几岁的时候，她是如何为丑角爱情攒零钱的。
All I wanted was to figure out how to feel like those women, she told me.
“我想要的只是弄清楚如何像那些女人一样感受，”她告诉我。
She also told me how when she was with my dad, if he moved too fast, she'd feel sharp pain.
她还告诉我，当她和我爸爸在一起时，如果他动作太快，她会感到剧烈的疼痛。
I knew exactly what she was talking about, pain that suffocated any of the good.
我清楚地知道她在说什么，痛苦会窒息一切美好。
"I get panic attacks when that happens," I told her.
“当这种情况发生时，我会感到恐慌，”我告诉她。
"I did too," she told me.
“我也这么做了，”她告诉我。
"Your father and I talked through what felt good, and we figured out a way," she explained.
“你父亲和我讨论了感觉良好的事情，我们找到了办法，”她解释道。
It was a good conversation.
这是一次很好的谈话。
I told my mother that I loved her.
我告诉妈妈我爱她。
I kept wanting her to apologize for giving me the same pain that she herself had suffered, but she stayed quiet.
我一直想让她道歉，因为她给我带来了她自己所遭受的同样的痛苦，但她保持沉默。
As we said our goodbyes and were about to hang up, she suddenly said, unprompted, "I hate everyone else too.
当我们告别并准备挂断电话时，她突然不由自主地说：“我也讨厌其他人。
Those women on TV who love sex, who enjoy it, I hate them too."
电视上那些热爱性、享受性的女人，我也讨厌她们。”
Since that first experience with a gynecologist in college, I've been to a handful of other doctors.
自从大学里第一次看妇科医生以来，我又去看过其他几位医生。
Many of them hadn't seen anyone who'd been cut before.
他们中的许多人以前从未见过被割伤的人。
When I'd peppered them with questions, they seemed hesitant to respond with authority.
当我向他们提出一系列问题时，他们似乎犹豫是否要以权威的方式回应。
Only once since my college ex did I hook up with anyone again-- try to hook up, that is.
自从我的大学前任之后，我只再和任何人勾搭过一次——就是尝试勾搭。
It too went badly.
事情也很糟糕。
That time prompted me to take action.
那次促使我采取行动。
I visited a doctor who specialized in victims of FGM.
我拜访了一位专门治疗女性生殖器切割受害者的医生。
I was living without health insurance that year.
那一年我没有医疗保险。
And when I called her office explaining this, the receptionist told me to plan to spend somewhere around $2,000 for the consult.
当我打电话给她的办公室解释这一点时，接待员告诉我计划花费大约 2,000 美元进行咨询。
It was all of my savings.
那是我所有的积蓄。
The money was worth it.
钱是值得的。
This doctor, unlike so many of the gynecologists I'd seen before, didn't wince when she peered between my legs.
这位医生与我以前见过的许多妇科医生不同，当她凝视我的双腿之间时，她并没有退缩。
She didn't over-apologize or pat my knees.
她没有过度道歉或拍拍我的膝盖。
She didn't murmur in a hushed whisper, like the medical resident at Columbia, "oh, bless your dear heart." Instead, she silently examined me.
她没有像哥伦比亚大学的住院医师那样小声嘀咕：“哦，祝福你亲爱的心。”相反，她默默地审视着我。
She'd heard of the religious sect that I belong to and had examined other girls like me.
她听说过我所属的教派，也检查过其他像我一样的女孩。
She explained that because the cutting is done in the living room without proper medical equipment, for girls in my sect, the results varied.
她解释说，由于切割是在客厅进行的，没有适当的医疗设备，对于我教派的女孩来说，结果各不相同。
Some of the girls can easily go on to have great sex lives.
有些女孩可以轻松地继续拥有美好的性生活。
But for me, the main difference was in the extensive scar tissue and the nerve damage.
但对我来说，主要的区别在于广泛的疤痕组织和神经损伤。
I'd read of a surgery where a doctor was grafting other genital tissue as part of a regenerative process.
我读到过一次手术，医生移植其他生殖器组织作为再生过程的一部分。
I asked her about it.
我问她这件事。
She shook her head.
她摇摇头。
"I wouldn't recommend this," she said.
“我不会推荐这个，”她说。
"The science was unreliable."
“科学是不可靠的。”
She told me what I'd long suspected.
她告诉了我长期以来的怀疑。
I'd probably never have a wonderful, easy, uncomplicated sex life.
我可能永远不会有美好、轻松、简单的性生活。
Instead, sex for me would likely involve many careful conversations with my partner, a sex therapist, and a willingness to trust a human beyond what I could imagine.
相反，对我来说，性可能需要与我的伴侣（性治疗师）进行多次仔细的对话，并且愿意信任一个超出我想象的人。
I wasn't horribly mutilated or defective in a way that made me incapable of enjoying sex.
我并没有因严重残缺或缺陷而无法享受性爱。
She explained, "this is not terminal.
她解释说：“这不是终点站。
This is not a life sentence.
这不是无期徒刑。
Find a sex therapist you trust.
寻找您信任的性治疗师。
Learn to allow yourself to let go." I wasn't sure what she meant and didn't ask further questions.
学会让自己放手。”我不明白她的意思，也没有再追问。
In the moments after she gave me her verdict, she mentioned a support group she held at Brigham and Women's Hospital.
在她向我做出判决后不久，她提到了她在布莱根妇女医院举办的一个支持小组。
I nodded enthusiastically, knowing I'd never attend.
我热情地点点头，知道我永远不会参加。
A few years ago, I moved back to Karachi for work.
几年前，我搬回卡拉奇工作。
My parents had moved back while I was in college.
我上大学时，我的父母搬回来了。
Here's a quick little explainer about Karachi, just so you know what to picture.
这里有一个关于卡拉奇的简短说明，以便您知道该想象什么。
Karachi is a huge city with around 22 million people.
卡拉奇是一座拥有约 2200 万人口的大城市。
It's modern, and it's not.
它是现代的，又不是现代的。
It has gleaming, gorgeous, multi-story malls and large movie theaters that play the latest Hollywood and Bollywood films.
它拥有闪闪发光、华丽的多层购物中心和播放最新好莱坞和宝莱坞电影的大型电影院。
People are on Tinder.
人们都在 Tinder 上。
Karachi also gets listed as among the most dangerous mega cities in the world.
卡拉奇还被列为世界上最危险的大城市之一。
There's no international tourism.
没有国际旅游。
There's beggars at almost every street corner and piles of burning trash pretty much everywhere in the city, even the really nice areas.
几乎每个街角都有乞丐，城市里几乎到处都是成堆的燃烧垃圾，甚至是非常好的地区。
The Dawoodi Bohra sect, which I'm from, is a small, typically pretty well-off minority in Karachi.
我所在的达乌迪·博赫拉教派是卡拉奇一个规模较小、通常相当富裕的少数民族。
There's about 40,000 of us.
我们大约有 40,000 人。
I live in a neighborhood made up entirely of other Bohris.
我住在一个完全由其他鲍赫里斯组成的社区。
Readjusting to life in Karachi as an adult was difficult.
作为一个成年人，重新适应卡拉奇的生活是很困难的。
I reluctantly attended services at the same mosque I went to as a kid.
我不情愿地参加了我小时候去过的同一座清真寺的仪式。
I'd sit there and scan all of the faces to see if I could recognize the woman who had cut me.
我会坐在那里扫描所有的面孔，看看我是否能认出那个割伤我的女人。
But then I realized that seated beside me were at least 100 other girls who had likely also been cut.
但后来我意识到坐在我旁边的至少有 100 个其他女孩可能也被割伤了。
I wondered what their sex lives were like.
我想知道他们的性生活是什么样的。
I'd sit fidgeting, wondering if any of them had escaped the cutting.
我会坐立不安，想知道是否有人逃脱了切割。
So I started asking women in Karachi to talk to me about this.
所以我开始请卡拉奇的女性和我谈论这个问题。
Half of the women I asked said no. This woman said yes.
我问过的女性中有一半表示不。这个女人说是的。
This is a friend of mine from childhood.
这是我从小到大的一个朋友。
She asked that I not use her real name, so I'm going to call her Sameena.
她要求我不要使用她的真名，所以我要叫她 Sameena。
Sameena is 27.
萨米娜今年 27 岁。
We were friends when we were very young, but we didn't stay in touch after I moved to the US.
我们很小的时候就是朋友，但我搬到美国后就没有再联系了。
We sat and talked on my bedroom floor.
我们坐在我卧室的地板上聊天。
Sameena said she'd been cut too.
Sameena说她也被砍了。
Unlike me, though, she knew the woman who did it.
不过，与我不同的是，她认识做这件事的女人。
She was a distant relative.
她是一个远房亲戚。
I remember that we were in her drawing room.
我记得我们在她的客厅里。
I was lying on the floor.
我躺在地板上。
I think my mom was holding me.
我想我妈妈抱着我。
And she was holding my legs, and my mom must have been holding my arms and stuff.
她扶着我的腿，我妈妈一定也扶着我的胳膊之类的东西。
There was no-- I don't remember what equipment she used.
没有——我不记得她用了什么设备。
Was it a blade or something else?
是刀片还是其他什么东西？
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
She cut something.
她剪了一些东西。
Do you remember it hurting?
你还记得很痛吗？
Sameena I think so, yes, enough that I was screaming and crying.
Sameena 我想是的，是的，足以让我尖叫和哭泣。
And then she put a bandage over it.
然后她在上面缠上绷带。
And then she had this huge scissor, and I thought she was cutting something else again.
然后她拿着一把巨大的剪刀，我以为她又在剪别的东西了。
She was bringing like a huge-ass scissors, so I screamed and I jumped.
她带来了一把巨大的剪刀，所以我尖叫着跳了起来。
And then my mom held me and all of that.
然后我妈妈抱着我等等。
And then she said in Gujarati that she's cutting the bandage, not me again.
然后她用古吉拉特语说她在剪绷带，而不是我。
And then she gave me candy.
然后她给了我糖果。
And then I came home.
然后我回到家。
And I knew that something had been cut, but obviously I didn't know why because we never spoke about it with friends and stuff.
我知道有些东西被删掉了，但显然我不知道为什么，因为我们从来没有和朋友谈论过这件事。
I mean, my mom told me, don't talk about it.
我的意思是，我妈妈告诉我，不要谈论它。
I was told it was a bug.
有人告诉我这是一个错误。
It was a bug.
这是一个错误。
It's gone.
它消失了。
You don't have it anymore.
你不再拥有它了。
Chapter closed.
章节结束。
The bug story.
错误的故事。
I had thought that was specific to my family.
我原以为这是我家人特有的。
Like me, Sameena figured out on her own what had been done to her.
和我一样，萨米娜自己也明白了自己遭遇了什么。
When she was 17, she read a change.org petition asking Bohris to ban clitorectomies.
17 岁时，她读到了 Change.org 上的一份请愿书，要求鲍里斯禁止阴蒂切除术。
Almost every Bohri I know has seen it.
我认识的几乎每个 Bohri 都看过它。
Sameena thought it was probably drafted and circulated by Bohris who weren't as devout as she was.
萨米娜认为这可能是由鲍里斯起草和传播的，而鲍里斯不像她那么虔诚。
Why are they questioning this?
他们为什么质疑这个？
she thought.
她想。
Then she did the same thing I did.
然后她做了我做的同样的事情。
She asked her mother about it.
她向母亲询问了此事。
My intention was not to speak to her in detail and ask her why she did it or why did they have to do it.
我的目的并不是要和她详细交谈并询问她为什么这样做或者为什么他们必须这样做。
It was like [GUJARATI], the quick question, why do we do it?
就像[古吉拉特语]，一个简单的问题，我们为什么要这样做？
And then she said, to curb the sexual desire of women so that they don't cheat and they don't get horny and sleep around.
然后她说，抑制女性的性欲，让她们不出轨、不淫荡、乱搞。
And she didn't use these words, but she said that this is why we do it, to curb your sexual desire.
她没有用这些话，但她说这就是我们这样做的原因，为了抑制你的性欲。
I wasn't surprised as such.
我对此并不感到惊讶。
I just felt like it was unfair.
我只是觉得这不公平。
Why do you want to stop me from having casual sex?
你为什么要阻止我发生随意性行为？
Why not men?
为什么不是男人呢？
So I think that's what I thought at that point, but I still don't remember feeling angry.
所以我想这就是我当时的想法，但我仍然不记得感到生气。
That was 10 years ago.
那是10年前的事了。
She feels differently now.
她现在感觉不同了。
Right now I do feel some anger that this is done.
现在我确实对这样做感到有些愤怒。
I had a huge argument with my parents and, well, it didn't end up anywhere.
我和父母发生了一场激烈的争吵，但最终没有结果。
Recent as in February of this year, three months ago.
最近是今年二月，三个月前。
When she says this, I know exactly what prompted the argument.
当她这么说的时候，我很清楚是什么引发了这场争论。
It was my brother.
那是我的兄弟。
In February, he spoke out against FGM, female genital mutilation, at a panel at the UN.
今年二月，他在联合国的一个小组中公开反对女性生殖器切割。
We were asked to do the panel together, but I was out of the country, so he did it alone.
我们被要求一起做小组，但我不在国内，所以他单独做。
He sat at a long, curved conference table in a stately room with wood walls.
他坐在一间带有木墙的富丽堂皇的房间里，一张长长的弧形会议桌旁。
He was one of five people who spoke that day.
他是当天发言的五人之一。
It was videotaped.
它被录像了。
"So many women in my life that I was close to had gone through this.
“我生命中很多与我关系密切的女性都经历过这样的事情。
And I was just shocked.
我只是感到震惊。
I was in denial.
我很否认。
I was frustrated.
我很沮丧。
It's been over the last five to six years since then that I've really become involved in this movement."
从那以后的五六年里，我才真正参与到这项运动中。”
My brother learned about FGM in his college anthropology class.
我哥哥在大学人类学课上了解了女性生殖器切割。
He thought it was something that happened in rural African villages.
他认为这是发生在非洲乡村的事情。
He had no idea about me or our mom and grandmothers.
他不了解我或我们的妈妈和祖母。
Then a Bohri girl at college set him straight, and he called me immediately, saying, "why didn't you tell me?"
然后大学里的一个波赫里女孩纠正了他的错误，他立即打电话给我，说：“你为什么不告诉我？”
After he spoke at the UN, he posted about it on Facebook.
在联合国发表讲话后，他在脸书上发布了相关消息。
It's a long, passionate post where he urges Bohri men not to stay silent and condone FGM.
这是一篇充满激情的长文，他敦促 Bohri 男性不要保持沉默并纵容女性生殖器切割。
In the post, he says, "FGM is not simply a women's issue, but a human rights issue.
他在帖子中说：“女性生殖器切割不仅仅是一个妇女问题，而且是一个人权问题。
Men must start seeing it as such," and that "FGM has absolutely no place in Islam.
男人必须开始这样看待它”，并且“女性生殖器切割在伊斯兰教中绝对没有地位。
There's nothing in the Quran about it."
《古兰经》中没有任何相关内容。”
The video of my brother's speech made the rounds in the Bohri community.
我哥哥演讲的视频在 Bohri 社区流传。
On Facebook, there was only a show of support.
在脸书上，人们只是表示支持。
Bohris from around the world Liked my brother's stance on FGM.
来自世界各地的鲍里斯喜欢我哥哥对女性生殖器切割的立场。
But less publicly, my brother had sparked some controversy.
但在不太公开的情况下，我哥哥引发了一些争议。
His private message folder filled up with messages from Bohris who disagreed.
他的私人邮件文件夹里塞满了来自鲍里斯的不同意见的邮件。
My parents received texts from Bohri friends in Pakistan, Tanzania, the UK, and the US, warning them that they may get in trouble with the clergy for this.
我的父母收到了来自巴基斯坦、坦桑尼亚、英国和美国的博赫里朋友的短信，警告他们可能会因此而与神职人员发生麻烦。
A high-ranking clergy member's wife strongly discouraged me from attending further services at my mosque.
一位高级神职人员的妻子强烈劝阻我不要去清真寺参加进一步的仪式。
Like a lot of Bohris in Karachi, Sameena saw my brother's post and showed it to her parents.
像卡拉奇的许多鲍里斯一样，萨米娜看到了我哥哥的帖子并将其展示给她的父母。
And with this, when I told my mom that I saw this on Facebook, my mom specifically told me not to Like it.
就这样，当我告诉妈妈我在 Facebook 上看到这个时，我妈妈特意告诉我不要喜欢它。
She said, don't Like it.
她说，不喜欢。
Don't share it.
不要分享它。
We were at home.
我们在家。
My dad was there as well.
我爸爸也在那里。
This is what my dad said, that your sexual desire, you have to curb it just so that the girls don't go around.
这就是我爸爸说的，你的性欲，你必须抑制它，这样女孩们就不会到处乱窜。
And so I said, but guys do it.
所以我说，但是男人们都会这样做。
My mom was like, why don't you question [GUJARATI] then?
我妈妈说，那你为什么不质疑[古吉拉特语]呢？
Why don't you question [GUJARATI]?
你为什么不质疑[古吉拉特语]？
Why are you questioning this?
你为什么质疑这个？
I was like, because it's being done to me!
我当时想，因为这是对我做的！
Quick translation.
快速翻译。
Sameena's mom basically argued, why not question everything we believe then?
Sameena 的妈妈基本上争论道，为什么不质疑我们所相信的一切呢？
Praying five times a day.
每天祈祷五次。
Fasting.
禁食。
Every major tenet of Islam.
伊斯兰教的每一个主要信条。
As Sameena pointed out, none of those things are an assault on her body.
正如萨米娜指出的那样，这些事情都不是对她身体的攻击。
Anyhow, Sameena's fight with her parents went on.
不管怎样，萨米娜和父母的争吵仍在继续。
And then I was like, if having sex is a bad thing, and if you don't want me to do it, teach me not to do it like you taught me not to drink and eat pork.
然后我想，如果做爱是一件坏事，如果你不想让我这样做，请教我不要这样做，就像你教我不要喝酒和吃猪肉一样。
I don't do it, right?
我不做，对吗？
Similarly, if you will have taught me not to sleep around, I probably wouldn't.
同样，如果你教我不要到处睡觉，我可能不会。
I mean, if consciously I have controlled myself, that's the point in Islam, to have that willpower to not do something.
我的意思是，如果我有意识地控制自己，那就是伊斯兰教的重点，拥有不做某事的意志力。
I would never eat pork because I've been told all my life, you're not supposed to eat it.
我永远不会吃猪肉，因为我一生都被告知，你不应该吃猪肉。
I'm never going to eat it.
我永远不会吃它。
The point is, I know this is something that I'm not supposed to do.
关键是，我知道这是我不应该做的事情。
If you told us what we were doing to ourselves, and then had done it with consent, then it's a different thing.
如果你告诉我们我们正在对自己做什么，然后在同意的情况下这样做，那么那就是另一回事了。
But at an age where I don't know what it is, you do something to me which is irreversible.
但在我不知道那是什么的年纪，你对我做了一些不可挽回的事情。
And you don't have to cut something off just to curb that desire.
你不必为了抑制这种欲望而切断某些东西。
Well, what did they say back to that specific argument?
好吧，他们对这个具体论点说了些什么？
Um-- Mariya Karimjee Because I feel like it's a really good argument.
嗯——Mariya Karimjee 因为我觉得这是一个非常好的论点。
You're like, OK, you've taught me right from wrong.
你说，好吧，你教会了我辨别是非。
So why is sex something that you didn't teach me?
那么为什么性是你没有教给我的东西呢？
You just made a decision for me.
你刚刚为我做了一个决定。
I knew they did not have a response because, well, what do you say to your child who is asking you such a question?
我知道他们没有回应，因为，好吧，你对问你这样问题的孩子说什么？
Because I'm not even sure if they knew why exactly they were doing it.
因为我什至不确定他们是否知道他们到底为什么这样做。
Did you feel like you'd won that argument?
你觉得你赢得了这场争论吗？
I think so, yes.
我想是的，是的。
Mariya Karimjee Do you think they thought that you'd won that argument?
玛丽亚·卡里姆吉：你认为他们认为你赢得了这场争论吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
They didn't have an answer.
他们没有答案。
Then my mom was like, well, I also pierced your ears, but you didn't say anything about that.
然后我妈妈就说，好吧，我也给你打了耳洞，但你什么也没说。
My mom said the same thing.
我妈妈也说过同样的话。
She literally said the same thing.
她确实说了同样的话。
I was like, how is piercing my ears at six months old anything like getting my clitoris cut?
我当时想，六个月大的时候打耳洞怎么会像割阴蒂一样呢？
Are you crazy?
你疯了？
I cannot believe you would say that.
我不敢相信你会这么说。
I know.
我知道。
Mariya Karimjee Did that make you mad?
玛丽亚·卡里姆吉 这让你生气了吗？
I was super mad, yes.
我非常生气，是的。
Mariya Karimjee The thing I really wanted to know, though, was much more personal.
玛丽亚·卡里姆吉（Mariya Karimjee） 不过，我真正想知道的是更个人的事情。
It was the question that had been haunting me from the moment I found out that I had been cut.
从我发现自己被裁掉的那一刻起，这个问题就一直困扰着我。
My question centered on the very thing her parents told her was the goal of FGM, curbing women's desire.
我的问题集中在她父母告诉她的女性生殖器切割的目标，即抑制女性的欲望上。
I definitely feel desire.
我确实感到渴望。
I'm just kind of wondering, is that true of you?
我只是想知道，你也是这样吗？
Do you get turned on?
你开机了吗？
I do.
我愿意。
Mariya Karimjee You do get turned on?
Mariya Karimjee 你真的兴奋吗？
I do.
我愿意。
Usually-- I mean, mostly if I'm watching something sexy.
通常——我的意思是，主要是当我在看性感的东西时。
Then yeah, I do.
那么是的，我愿意。
So every time I watch TV or something and I get turned on, and then I think about what my parents said, that you don't feel any sexual desire, here I'm thinking that they said that when you get cut, you don't feel any desire.
所以每次我看电视什么的，我就会兴奋，然后我就会想起我父母所说的，你不会感到任何性欲，在这里我想他们说，当你被割伤时，你不会感到任何性欲。
But I am feeling it, so maybe this kind of circumcision, it's not affecting me.
但我感觉到了，所以也许这种包皮环切术，对我没有影响。
Sameena's not married, and she hasn't had sex.
Sameena 尚未结婚，也没有发生过性行为。
She's also not in pain the same way I am.
她也不像我一样痛苦。
I have.
我有。
Mariya Karimjee And how'd that go for you?
Mariya Karimjee 你觉得怎么样？
It works.
有用。
Mariya Karimjee Well hey, that's so nice to hear.
Mariya Karimjee 嘿，很高兴听到这个消息。
There is hope out there.
那里有希望。
Yeah.
是的。
The thing is, I've never spoken to anyone in detail who has had sex about how it feels and stuff, so I don't know.
问题是，我从来没有和任何发生过性行为的人详细谈论过性行为的感受和其他事情，所以我不知道。
And I haven't spoken to anyone who has been cut and has had sex.
我还没有和任何被割伤并发生过性关系的人说过话。
That is the thing.
就是这样。
Knowing that I've been cut, I can still masturbate.
知道自己被割了，我还能自慰。
And I keep thinking that OK, maybe this is like a lesser level of orgasm or whatever feeling that I get.
我一直在想，好吧，也许这就像较低水平的性高潮或我得到的任何感觉。
Maybe I don't feel as much desire as people who were not cut.
也许我没有被割的人那么强烈的欲望。
Maybe if they hadn't done it, I would feel more desire than what I feel right now, maybe.
也许如果他们没有这么做，我可能会比现在感受到更多的渴望。
I told Sameena that I thought the whole idea of curbing desire is a myth and BS, and that saying that cutting limits a woman's desire is just a way to hide what the goal really is-- to take away our enjoyment of sex.
我告诉萨米娜，我认为抑制欲望的整个想法是一个神话和胡言乱语，并且说切割限制了女人的欲望只是隐藏真正目标的一种方式——剥夺我们对性的享受。
Sameena didn't entirely agree.
Sameena并不完全同意。
But I don't think that taking something away from us is their intention, because they're doing it without reason.
但我不认为从我们身上夺走某些东西是他们的意图，因为他们这样做是没有理由的。
I think for most parents-- like I know my friends' parents as well.
我想对于大多数父母来说——就像我也认识我朋友的父母一样。
I see my mom in each one of them.
我在每一张照片中都看到了我的妈妈。
Their mothers and stuff, they're all like [GUJARATI].
他们的母亲等等，他们都像[古吉拉特语]。
[GUJARATI].
[古吉拉特语]。
It's a part of our culture, her mom said.
这是我们文化的一部分，她妈妈说。
So they just do it without any reason, I guess.
所以我猜他们只是毫无理由地这样做。
I mean, there's really not much logic.
我的意思是，确实没有太多逻辑。
When you believe in something blindly, that's what they call faith.
当你盲目地相信某件事时，那就是他们所说的信仰。
If everybody in the community is doing something, then it's something that you just do.
如果社区中的每个人都在做某事，那么这就是您要做的事情。
I feel like it's like-- I don't know how to put this into words.
我觉得就像——我不知道如何用语言来表达。
My mother was the one who took me and did this to me.
我的母亲带走了我并对我做了这样的事。
So I don't know if it's like a male-dominated thing, or if men don't want this for women, or if it's like just women have just taught themselves that they shouldn't enjoy this or something.
所以我不知道这是否是男性主导的事情，或者男性是否不希望女性这样做，或者女性是否刚刚教会自己不应该享受这个或其他东西。
I don't know if I'm making sense.
我不知道我说的是否有道理。
You're making perfect sense.
你说得很有道理。
Sameena OK.
萨米娜 好的。
She was making perfect sense.
她说得很有道理。
I had wondered the same thing.
我也想知道同样的事情。
Why were women still subjecting their daughters to this?
为什么妇女们仍然让她们的女儿遭受这种对待？
Until recently, my grandmother didn't even know what the term FGM meant.
直到最近，我的祖母甚至不知道女性生殖器切割一词的含义。
Out of the blue, she asked me to explain it.
突然，她让我解释一下。
She read about it in the paper.
她在报纸上读到了这件事。
This time I told her about the bug story.
这次我告诉她有关错误的故事。
I asked her if she remembered when I was cut and told her how wrong I thought the practice was.
我问她是否记得我被割伤的时候，并告诉她我认为这种做法是多么错误。
I asked her if she thought it was wrong.
我问她是否认为这是错误的。
She mumbled something about the religious clergy wanting it done, and that she supposed they knew best.
她嘟哝了一些关于宗教神职人员希望这样做的事情，她认为他们最了解。
I was stunned.
我惊呆了。
She seemed to have no idea what the surgery did exactly, what it took away.
她似乎不知道手术到底做了什么，失去了什么。
Before I left, my grandmother held my hand and said, "your mother tried to stop it."
临走前，奶奶握着我的手说：“你妈妈极力阻止。”
I didn't understand.
我不明白。
I couldn't even process what she'd said.
我什至无法理解她所说的话。
It took me weeks to speak to my mother about that conversation I'd had with my grandmother.
我花了几个星期才和母亲谈论我和祖母的谈话。
When I finally did, it was so hard to bring up, I just whispered to my mom, "did you try and stop them from cutting me?"
当我终于做到的时候，我很难提起，我只是低声对妈妈说：“你有没有试图阻止他们割伤我？”
She explained it was my grandfather who had insisted that the women in the family be cut.
她解释说是我祖父坚持要砍掉家里的女人。
He believed that if the religious clergy thought this was necessary, we were wrong to question it.
他认为，如果宗教神职人员认为这是必要的，那么我们的质疑就是错误的。
The fights about having me cut grew so out of control that he threatened to kick my mother out of the family.
关于剪掉我的争吵变得如此失控，以至于他威胁要把我母亲赶出家庭。
My grandmother was silent about it all.
奶奶对这一切都保持沉默。
After my mother told me what really happened, our relationship changed.
当我妈妈告诉我到底发生了什么之后，我们的关系发生了变化。
My anger towards her was gone almost immediately.
我对她的愤怒几乎立刻就消失了。
I wish I could tell you definitively that things are changing among Bohris.
我希望我能明确地告诉你，鲍里斯之间的事情正在发生变化。
Mainly because of the secrecy, people don't really say where they stand.
主要是因为保密，人们并没有真正说出他们的立场。
After my brother spoke at the UN, my father was proud of him.
我哥哥在联合国发言后，我父亲为他感到骄傲。
He apologized to me for what happened.
他为发生的事情向我道歉。
He said it's like if someone cut off his penis.
他说这就像有人砍掉了他的阴茎。
I said, yep.
我说，是的。
He shared my brother's Facebook post with more than 50 of his friends.
他与 50 多个朋友分享了我哥哥的 Facebook 帖子。
And then within days, he lost his confidence.
然后几天之内，他就失去了信心。
He got word from a close family member that he was on the wrong side of this and he shouldn't criticize the practice-- publicly.
他从一位亲密的家庭成员那里得到消息，称他在这件事上站在了错误的一边，他不应该公开批评这种做法。
And "publicly" is the thing.
而“公开”就是问题所在。
He stopped sharing the post.
他停止分享该帖子。
Recently a Bohri leader in Sydney was prosecuted and sent to jail for FGM.
最近，悉尼的一名博赫里领导人因女性生殖器切割而被起诉并入狱。
After that, a handful of clergy from the Bohri community around the world started circulating letters saying that cutting is illegal and we should stop doing it.
此后，来自世界各地博赫里社区的一些神职人员开始散发信件，称切割是非法的，我们应该停止这样做。
That's on the heels of a small group of us who have become very vocal about ending FGM.
紧随我们一小群人强烈呼吁结束女性生殖器切割之后。
That's what I can do.
这就是我能做的。
That's a new Bohri tradition.
这是博赫里的新传统。
Mariya Karimjee.
玛丽亚·卡里姆吉。
Her story came to us through a podcast called The Heart, which is really great and well-produced.
她的故事是通过一个名为“The Heart”的播客告诉我们的，该播客非常棒且制作精良。
You should listen to it.
你应该听听它。
You can find their version of the story this week on theheartradio.org or wherever you get your podcasts.
本周您可以在 theheartradio.org 或任何您能找到播客的地方找到他们的故事版本。
A print version of Mariya's story was originally published on the website thebigroundtable.com.
玛丽亚故事的印刷版最初发布在 thebigroundtable.com 网站上。
Coming up, a brother and sister with extraordinarily similar first names and completely opposite ways of dealing with what happened to their dad when they were little.
接下来，一对兄弟姐妹的名字极其相似，但对待父亲小时候发生的事情的方式却完全相反。
That's in a minute from WBEZ Chicago when our program continues.
距离芝加哥 WBEZ 一分钟后，我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Sean Cole.
我是肖恩·科尔。
Every week we choose a theme and play you all kinds of stories related to that theme.
每周我们都会选择一个主题，并向您播放与该主题相关的各种故事。
This week, "Who Do We Think We Are?", stories of folks trying to reconcile their beliefs with those of someone or someones they're related to.
本周的“我们认为自己是谁？”讲述了人们试图调和自己的信仰与某人或与之相关的人的信仰的故事。
We're up to Act Two of the show.
我们正在观看演出的第二幕。
Act Two, "Who Wants to Know?"
第二幕“谁想知道？”
This last story is also about folks coming to a kind of reckoning with their parents, but in a very different way.
最后一个故事也是关于人们与父母进行清算，但方式却截然不同。
It's about a brother and sister named Nema and Neda Semnani.
这是关于一对名叫 Nema 和 Neda Semnani 的兄妹的故事。
Their father died violently when they were very little.
他们的父亲在他们很小的时候就惨死了。
Nema, the brother, actually never met his father, and their mother died of ovarian cancer back in 2010.
兄弟 Nema 实际上从未见过他的父亲，他们的母亲早在 2010 年就因卵巢癌去世了。
After she died, they packed up boxes and boxes of her stuff and sent them off with various relatives.
她去世后，他们把她的东西收拾得一箱又一箱，并把它们送给了各个亲戚。
Nema ended up with a bunch of the boxes himself, and a filing cabinet, which he hated.
尼玛最终自己得到了一堆盒子和一个他讨厌的文件柜。
He didn't want to look at any of it.
他什么都不想看。
Both of his parents were dead.
他的父母均已去世。
There was history in there that he didn't want to deal with.
那里有他不想面对的历史。
And he was moving around a lot, apartment to apartment.
他经常搬家，从一个公寓搬到另一个公寓。
Imagine lugging around a both literal and figurative box of just bad with you, like figuratively full of bad stuff and physically a lot of it.
想象一下，你背着一个既字面意思又象征性的盒子，里面装满了坏东西，就像象征性地装满了坏东西，但实际上却装满了很多坏东西。
You know?
你知道？
Yeah.
是的。
Nema Semnani You're like, that's my box of bad.
Nema Semnani 你说，那是我的坏盒子。
Where do you keep your tragedy?
你把你的悲剧放在哪里？
It's in this box.
它就在这个盒子里。
Nema Semnani It's in this box over there, in the file cabinet.
Nema Semnani 它在那边的这个盒子里，在文件柜里。
I remember one conversation.
我记得一次谈话。
He was like, I'm just going to throw them away.
他说，我要把它们扔掉。
Like angrily, I'm going to throw them out.
就像生气一样，我要把它们扔出去。
This is Neda, Nema's sister.
这是内达，内玛的妹妹。
She's three years older.
她比她大三岁。
She felt very differently about the boxes.
她对这些盒子的感觉非常不同。
I was like, "don't!" "Do you know what's in them?" He's like, "no." I was like, "well then, you [BLEEP]ing can't throw them away."
我当时想，“不要！” “你知道里面有什么吗？”他说：“不。”我当时想，“那么，你不能把它们扔掉。”
So Nema tucks away the boxes and the filing cabinet in a storage unit outside Washington, DC.
因此，内玛将盒子和文件柜藏在华盛顿特区郊外的一个存储单元中。
And then a few years after their mom dies, Neda's trying to piece together the details of their parents' lives and what happened to their father.
母亲去世几年后，内达试图拼凑出父母的生活细节以及父亲的遭遇。
And she says to Nema, can we go check out that storage unit?
她对 Nema 说，我们可以去看看那个存储单元吗？
So they head over there, and it's like a Hardy Boys episode.
所以他们去了那里，这就像哈迪男孩的一集。
For some reason we're the only two there, but I feel like in storage units, it always feels like you're the only one there.
出于某种原因，我们是那里唯一的两个人，但我觉得在存储单元中，总是感觉你是那里唯一的一个人。
And we opened the door of the storage unit.
我们打开了储藏室的门。
And there's all this crap.
还有这些废话。
There's clothes and there's whatever, and there's a rusted-out filing cabinet.
里面有衣服什么的，还有一个生锈的文件柜。
And I open it.
我打开它。
And literally all by itself in this mass of stuff is just this, just this folder with my dad's name on it, sitting very patiently, as if it had been waiting for me all this time.
从字面上看，在这堆东西中，只有这个，就是这个写着我父亲名字的文件夹，非常耐心地坐着，好像它一直在等我。
It was a trove of information about their father.
这是关于他们父亲的大量信息。
And it wasn't just that one folder.
而且它不仅仅是那个文件夹。
In another drawer there were more files, and more in some of the boxes.
另一个抽屉里有更多文件，一些盒子里还有更多文件。
And a few days later, I'm going through them, or maybe it was the next day.
几天后，我正在浏览它们，或者也许是第二天。
There are handwritten letters and Dad's passport.
有手写的信件和爸爸的护照。
She showed it to me.
她给我看了。
Sean Cole Can I look at his picture?
肖恩·科尔 我可以看一下他的照片吗？
Yeah, he looks a lot like Nema, if Nema shaved.
是的，如果尼玛剃了胡子的话，他看起来很像尼玛。
And I just remember thinking.
我只记得我在想。
I felt like-- I don't know.
我感觉——我不知道。
It felt like I was on the right path.
感觉就像我走在正确的道路上。
This is what was in the box of bad, what Neda began finding out more and more about as she dug through the folders and files.
这就是坏盒子里的东西，内达在翻阅文件夹和文件时开始发现越来越多的东西。
So their parents were both from Iran.
所以他们的父母都来自伊朗。
They met when they were students at Berkeley in California in the '60s.
上世纪 60 年代，他们在加州伯克利大学读书时相识。
And they became involved in a leftist political movement there that opposed the shah of Iran.
他们在那里参与了反对伊朗国王的左翼政治运动。
There was the revolution in '79.
79 年发生了革命。
The shah goes into exile.
国王流亡国外。
And all of these leftists who had been agitating from abroad come streaming back into the country, back into Iran, high on the possibility of new freedoms in their country.
所有这些从国外煽动的左翼分子纷纷涌回国内，回到伊朗，他们对自己国家获得新自由的可能性充满信心。
Neda and Nema's parents were two of them.
内达和内玛的父母就是其中两人。
Except the shah was replaced by the Ayatollah Khomeini, an Islamic fundamentalist who, arguably, was even more restrictive.
只不过国王被阿亚图拉霍梅尼取代，后者是一位伊斯兰原教旨主义者，可以说，他的限制性更强。
And when the leftists-- the secular leftists-- agitated against this new regime, a lot of them were imprisoned, including Neda and Nema's dad.
当左派——世俗左派——鼓动反对这个新政权时，他们中的很多人都被监禁，包括内达和内玛的父亲。
Their mother was still pregnant with Nema at the time.
他们的母亲当时还怀着尼玛。
Neda was two years old.
内达两岁了。
She and her mother escaped back to the States.
她和她的母亲逃回美国。
Nema was born about a month after they got there.
他们到达那里大约一个月后，尼玛出生了。
And then, four months after that, their dad and 20 other activists were executed.
然后，四个月后，他们的父亲和其他 20 名活动人士被处决。
And as Neda got older, this image of her father formed in her head.
随着内达年龄的增长，她父亲的形象在她脑海中形成。
I believed he was a superhero.
我相信他是一个超级英雄。
He was kind of a weird superhero, though, because no one really talked about him very much.
不过，他是一位奇怪的超级英雄，因为没有人真正谈论他。
So I think maybe that's part of the reason I thought, maybe he's still in prison.
所以我想这也许是我认为他还在监狱里的部分原因。
I remember asking Mom, how do you know he's dead?
我记得我问妈妈，你怎么知道他死了？
We left before he died, so how do you know?
我们在他去世前就离开了，所以你怎么知道？
Couldn't he have been like a ninja?
难道他就不能像一个忍者吗？
You said ninja.
你说的是忍者。
Neda Semnani Yeah.
内达·塞姆纳尼 是的。
I don't know why ninja.
不知道为什么是忍者
Or like karate.
或者像空手道。
Maybe I said karate.
也许我说的是空手道。
Couldn't he have done karate and gotten out?
难道他不能练完空手道然后出去吗？
30 years later, every new fact that Neda uncovers about her dad is like a strand of DNA she can use to re-engineer him, to bring him back.
30 年后，内达发现的关于她父亲的每一个新事实就像一条 DNA，她可以用它来重新设计他，把他带回来。
For example, Neda learned that in Tehran, after someone informed on their father, he and Neda's mother and Neda all went into hiding.
例如，内达得知，在德黑兰，有人举报了他们的父亲后，他和内达的母亲以及内达都躲了起来。
Neda only has shadowy memories of this-- more like memories of memories.
内达对此只有模糊的记忆——更像是记忆中的记忆。
She certainly didn't know back then that her family was essentially waiting for the government to come and arrest everyone.
她当时当然不知道，她的家人实质上是在等待政府来逮捕所有人。
And they figured they wouldn't be waiting long.
他们认为他们不会等太久。
But then a week went by, two weeks went by, a month went by.
但一周过去了，两周过去了，一个月过去了。
And then January was February, February was March, and still nothing.
然后一月又是二月，二月又是三月，还是什么都没有。
And apparently the stress of it had gotten to my dad.
显然，这给我父亲带来了压力。
One side of his face kind of froze and stopped working for a month or something, just like the left side of his-- or one side of his face just fell.
他的一侧脸有点僵住了，一个月左右就停止工作了，就像他的左边一样——或者说他的一侧脸刚刚塌下来。
Every time she found out a detail like this, she'd want to tell her brother, to share it with him.
每次她发现这样的细节，她都会想告诉哥哥，和他分享。
This is what Mom and Dad went through, our mom and dad.
这就是爸爸妈妈所经历的，我们的爸爸妈妈。
This is where we come from.
这就是我们来自的地方。
But Nema, her brother, wasn't interested.
但她的兄弟尼玛并不感兴趣。
Not that he wasn't interested, he aggressively did not want to know any of these details she was finding out.
并不是说他不感兴趣，而是他非常不想知道她正在发现的这些细节。
This whole project of exhuming the past, re-animating their parents, what did he have to gain from that?
这整个挖掘过去、复活父母的计划，他能从中得到什么？
She has certain fragments and puzzle pieces of the father.
她拥有父亲的某些片段和拼图。
I don't have any of that.
我什么都没有。
So I got the privilege of creating him.
所以我有幸创造了他。
It's funny that you would think of that as a privilege.
有趣的是，你会认为这是一种特权。
I can't-- how else would you think of it?
我不能——否则你还能怎么想？
Obviously it sucks.
显然这很糟糕。
I'm not going to say it doesn't suck.
我不会说它不糟糕。
But right now my father is perfect.
但现在我的父亲是完美的。
I already have 100 out of 100 right now.
我现在已经有100个里的100个了。
It can only go down.
只能往下走。
There's a very good chance that you know more than I do.
你很有可能比我知道得更多。
No, no, no, no. Nema, I certainly know more than you do.
不，不，不，不。尼玛，我当然比你知道的更多。
OK, good.
好的，很好。
Sean Cole Which is a funny feeling because it's your history.
肖恩·科尔：这种感觉很有趣，因为这是你的历史。
I mean, it's your family.
我的意思是，这是你的家人。
Yeah.
是的。
Sean Cole Whereas Neda is swimming in the details of the revolution and the escape and the execution practically every day-- she's writing a book about it, actually-- and those details are sometimes hard to carry around.
肖恩·科尔 而内达几乎每天都沉浸在革命、越狱和处决的细节中——实际上，她正在写一本关于它的书——而这些细节有时很难随身携带。
A bit of what she's learned.
她学到的一些东西。
And here I'll just issue a personal content advisory warning to Nema, who, if you're listening to this and you still don't want to know this stuff, you should turn down the radio for a minute.
在这里，我将向 Nema 发出个人内容咨询警告，如果你正在听这个，但你仍然不想知道这些东西，你应该把收音机关小一分钟。
Firstly, the group their dad was part of staged an armed uprising against Khomeini.
首先，他们父亲所属的组织发动了针对霍梅尼的武装起义。
It was a terrible plan, and it went badly.
这是一个糟糕的计划，而且进展得很糟糕。
The irony is that their dad opposed the uprising, didn't take part in it.
讽刺的是，他们的父亲反对起义，却没有参加。
But it didn't matter.
但这并不重要。
The governmental guards arrested him, bound his hands behind him with a rope, and marched him back to his parents' house.
政府警卫逮捕了他，用绳子将他的双手反绑在身后，押送回他父母家。
This whole eerie scene ensues there, with their dad, their aunt, and these four armed guards sitting around, waiting for their mother to arrive.
这整个令人毛骨悚然的场景就发生了，他们的爸爸、姑妈和这四个武装警卫坐在周围，等待他们的母亲到来。
She doesn't arrive.
她没有到。
She calls instead.
她反而打电话来。
The aunt says, everything's OK.
阿姨说，一切都好。
Bring Neda to your mother's place.
把内达带到你母亲那里。
It was code.
这是代码。
Her mother lived in California.
她的母亲住在加利福尼亚州。
The escape through Iranian Kurdistan was harrowing and took days.
穿越伊朗库尔德斯坦的逃亡是痛苦的，花了几天的时间。
They rode horses and walked and were driven by smugglers-- smugglers who abandoned them on the roadside twice.
他们骑马、步行、被走私者驱赶——走私者曾两次将他们遗弃在路边。
They were desperately thirsty and hungry.
他们又渴又饿。
Neda went half crazy for a little bit from heatstroke.
内达因为中暑而变得有点疯狂。
Again, she was two.
再说一次，她两岁了。
Their mom, pregnant with Nema, fell down an embankment at one point but climbed back up and kept walking.
他们的妈妈怀着尼玛，有一次从路堤上摔下来，但又爬起来继续行走。
Meantime, Neda and Nema's dad was being held in solitary confinement at Evin prison.
与此同时，内达和内玛的父亲被单独监禁在埃文监狱。
Neda describes his cell block as a prison within a prison, filled with torture devices.
内达将他的牢房描述为监狱中的监狱，里面充满了酷刑装置。
So Neda understands Nema not wanting to know these things.
所以内达理解内玛不想知道这些事情。
That's another thing, is Neda knows about the torture.
那是另一件事，内达知道酷刑。
He was tortured in these things, and she knows about it.
他在这些事情上受尽折磨，她都知道。
It's the difference between knowing that it happened and maybe even knowing the methods at which they were implemented.
这是知道它发生了和甚至可能知道它们的实现方法之间的区别。
And I'm pretty sure she knows these things.
我很确定她知道这些事情。
Put that very high on the list of things I don't want to know.
把它放在我不想知道的事情清单的最前面。
And why the hell does she want to know?
她到底为什么想知道？
Right?
正确的？
Nema learns about these things almost by accident.
Nema 几乎是偶然了解到这些事情的。
Through his earmuffs, as he says, things just creep in now and then.
正如他所说，透过他的耳罩，事情时不时就会悄悄发生。
And yeah, the torture is very high on that list of things he doesn't want to know.
是的，酷刑在他不想知道的事情清单上名列前茅。
But practically everything's on that list.
但几乎所有的东西都在这个清单上。
He's allowed to decide the stories he tells himself, I think.
我认为他可以决定自己讲的故事。
I mean, they're his parents too.
我的意思是，他们也是他的父母。
I mean, I think that there's stuff that he should know, or at least be given the option to.
我的意思是，我认为有些事情他应该知道，或者至少应该被给予选择。
So when someone had sent us the footage of Dad's trial, I sent it to him.
因此，当有人向我们发送了父亲受审的录像时，我将其发送给了他。
And then he told me a couple days ago that he watched, like, a second of it.
然后几天前他告诉我他看了一秒钟。
It was just long enough to see-- I watched it for 30 seconds, caring not what he said but how he said it.
时间够长了——我看了30秒，关心的不是他说什么，而是他怎么说。
You just wanted to-- Nema Semnani I wanted to see.
你只是想——我想见 Nema Semnani。
Does he do what I do?
他做我做的事吗？
Does he tilt his head a little bit?
他的头稍微倾斜了吗？
Does he speak with his hands?
他用手说话吗？
Does he gesticulate a lot?
他经常打手势吗？
Not that I could really tell.
我真的不能说。
Sean Cole Their dad doesn't move around a lot in the video, actually.
肖恩·科尔：实际上，他们的父亲在视频中并没有经常走动。
His hands are resting on a table.
他的双手放在桌子上。
He looks tired, defeated.
他看上去很疲惫，很挫败。
In certain moments, he seems near tears.
在某些时刻，他似乎快要落泪了。
It's not the kind of video you watch when you want to have a sunny idea of where you come from.
当你想清楚地了解自己来自哪里时，这不是你观看的那种视频。
Still, in a way, Nema had the same experience watching that little bit of the video that Neda has had this whole time in all of her research.
尽管如此，在某种程度上，内玛在观看那一小段视频时也有与内达在她所有研究中一直以来所看到的相同的经历。
He says it proved that his dad was a living person, that he wasn't a myth.
他说这证明了他的父亲是一个活生生的人，他不是一个神话。
But he doesn't think he's going to watch any more of it.
但他认为他不会再看下去了。
It's funny, but Neda and Nema's mom knew they'd end up each feeling the way they do about the past.
这很有趣，但内达和内玛的妈妈知道他们最终都会对过去有同样的感受。
She all but said it in an interview with StoryCorps, that traveling recording booth where people tell stories about their lives.
她几乎是在接受 StoryCorps 采访时这么说的，StoryCorps 是一个流动录音室，人们在这里讲述自己的生活故事。
In this case, their mom was just talking to one of the StoryCorps volunteers, who asked her what her late husband would have thought of the family's life in America.
在这种情况下，他们的妈妈只是在与 StoryCorps 的一名志愿者交谈，后者问她已故的丈夫对美国家庭的生活有何看法。
And more than anything, I think he would have been proud of his two children.
最重要的是，我认为他会为他的两个孩子感到骄傲。
He never saw his son.
他从未见过他的儿子。
And his daughter, who was the apple of his eyes, they didn't see each other after she was two and a half.
而他的女儿，他的掌上明珠，两岁半之后他们就再没有见过面。
So his sort of ghost hovers over my daughter.
所以他的幽灵笼罩在我女儿身上。
But my son, who never knew him, I think has a longing for a father he never knew.
但我的儿子，从来不认识他，我想他渴望有一个他不认识的父亲。
But there is not a ghost hovering over him, as there is one for my daughter.
但他身上并没有鬼魂，而我女儿身上却有鬼魂。
Neda first heard that recording long after their mother died.
内达第一次听到这段录音是在他们母亲去世很久之后。
Nema has never heard it, unless he's listening to this right now.
尼玛从来没有听过，除非他现在正在听。
But I did tell him what she said.
但我确实告诉了他她说的话。
And he said, that's 100% accurate.
他说，这是100%准确的。
She was a smart woman.
她是一个聪明的女人。
[MUSIC - "WHAT I AM" BY EDIE BRICKELL & NEW BOHEMIANS]
[音乐 - EDIE BRICKELL 和新波西米亚人的“我是什么”]
Our program was produced today by Neil Drumming and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由尼尔·鼓明和南希·厄普代克制作。
Our production staff includes Zoe Chace, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lyra Smith, and Matt Tierney.
我们的制作人员包括 Zoe Chace、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp、Lyra Smith 和 Matt Tierney。
Our editor is Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Editorial help from Julie Snyder and Elna Baker.
朱莉·斯奈德和埃尔娜·贝克的编辑帮助。
Other staff, Elise Bergerson, Emily Condon, Kimberly Henderson, and Seth Lind.
其他工作人员包括埃莉斯·伯格森、艾米丽·康登、金伯利·亨德森和塞斯·林德。
Research help from Christopher Swetala.
克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉 (Christopher Swetala) 提供研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Extra special thanks to my boss, Ira Jeffrey Glass.
特别感谢我的老板艾拉·杰弗里·格拉斯。
You know, he performs magic too.
你知道，他也会魔法。
And he was doing this magic trick for the Cookie Monster the other day where he presented him with three sealed envelopes.
有一天，他正在为饼干怪物表演这个魔术，他给了他三个密封的信封。
And I was like, do you know what's in them?
我当时想，你知道里面有什么吗？
And he was like, no.
他说，不。
I'm Sean Cole.
我是肖恩·科尔。
Ira will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉将于下周带着更多《美国生活》的故事回来。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。