585: In Defense of Ignorance - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #585 | August 2, 2019 585: In Defense of Ignorance Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 585 集 | 2019 年 8 月 2 日 585：捍卫无知 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life .
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
So one of the people who works on our radio show, her brother was going through a rough time.
我们广播节目的工作人员之一，她的兄弟正在经历一段艰难的时期。
And he called their mom, kind of panicking.
他打电话给他们的妈妈，有点惊慌。
And the mom was like, you know, you just need to stop thinking about this stuff.
妈妈说，你知道，你只需要停止思考这些事情。
And he was like, Mom, that is not possible.
他说，妈妈，这是不可能的。
And she was like, that is totally possible.
她说，这完全有可能。
What you have to do is you have to take the bad thought and put it into a box in your head.
你要做的就是把不好的想法收起来，放进你脑子里的盒子里。
Then, you have to take the box out of your head, and put it in a cupboard, and shut the cupboard.
然后，你必须把盒子从你的头上拿出来，放进柜子里，然后关上柜子。
I love the completeness of that.
我喜欢它的完整性。
It's like the box in the head was not enough, right?
好像脑袋里的盒子还不够吧？
That image maybe worked for their mom when she was young.
这个形象可能适合他们年轻时的妈妈。
But then she was like, I have not extinguished the bad thoughts quite enough.
但后来她说，我还没有完全消除不好的想法。
I need more.
我需要更多。
I need a cupboard.
我需要一个柜子。
Next time our producer and her brother were visiting her parents, she told me, the two of them were all just like, "don't open the cupboards!"
她告诉我，下次我们的制片人和她的兄弟拜访她的父母时，他们两个都说：“不要打开橱柜！”
Denial usually gets a bad rap.
否认通常会受到不好的批评。
Compartmentalizing your feelings, keeping it all inside, pretending things never happened-- these are not signs of psychological health.
将你的感受区分开来，把一切都藏在心里，假装事情从未发生过——这些都不是心理健康的迹象。
What they're signs of is adulthood.
他们的标志是成年。
If you do those things, basically, you're an adult because being an adult means sucking it up, getting on with it, going to work even if you have a cold because you're an adult.
如果你做了这些事情，基本上，你就是一个成年人了，因为成为一个成年人意味着要忍受它，继续下去，即使你感冒了也要去工作，因为你是一个成年人。
You do your job.
你做你的工作。
I'm not complaining.
我没有抱怨。
In fact, today's entire show is a defense of not thinking about it, of not knowing-- a defense, in short, of ignorance.
事实上，今天的整个节目都是在为没有思考、为不知道辩护——简而言之，为无知辩护。
We have three very different stories.
我们有三个截然不同的故事。
You can decide how convincing they are.
您可以决定它们的说服力。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, What You Don't Know.
第一幕，你不知道的事情。
Lulu Wang has this case study of people not admitting the truth.
王露露有一个关于人们不承认真相的案例研究。
When my grandmother was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer, she was given three months to live.
当我的祖母被诊断出患有第四期肺癌时，她只剩下三个月的生命。
She was 80 years old, and my family, for reasons I'll get into in a minute, decided not to tell her.
她已经 80 岁了，我的家人决定不告诉她，原因我稍后会解释。
I was totally against this.
我完全反对这一点。
When I heard the news, I wanted to talk with my grandmother, comfort her.
当我听到这个消息时，我想和奶奶谈谈，安慰她。
I wanted to grieve with her in the way that seems natural when someone you love is dying.
当你所爱的人去世时，我想以一种看似自然的方式与她一起悲伤。
But my mom-- she's the one who called me to give me the bad news-- quickly informed me that what I wanted, that what I thought was the right thing to do, would not be permitted and that I would have no say in the matter.
但我妈妈——她是那个打电话给我告诉我坏消息的人——很快告诉我，我想要的、我认为正确的事情不会被允许，而且我在这件事上没有发言权。
I was stunned.
我惊呆了。
My grandmother, or Nainai, as I call her, lives in China, along with a lot of my other relatives.
我的祖母，或者我称呼她为奶奶，和我的许多其他亲戚一起住在中国。
My parents and I live here in the United States.
我和我的父母住在美国。
I'm really close to my Nainai.
我和我的奈奈真的很亲近。
At 2 years old, I lived with her and my grandfather for a year so my mom could work.
两岁时，我和她和祖父一起住了一年，这样我妈妈就可以工作了。
Nainai is 5 foot tall with a full head of permed, white hair.
奈奈身高 5 英尺，一头烫过的白发。
She's small, but when my Nainai walks into a room, everyone listens.
她很小，但当我的奶奶走进房间时，每个人都会听。
I wasn't the only one who felt weird keeping this a secret.
我并不是唯一一个对保守秘密感到奇怪的人。
My dad thought about going to his mom and telling her she was dying.
我父亲考虑去找他妈妈并告诉她她快要死了。
But then what?
但然后呢？
I could not take care of her because I have my own family back in the United States, right?
我不能照顾她，因为我在美国有自己的家人，对吗？
I have my job here.
我在这里有我的工作。
And then I won't be able to take the responsibility of being with my mom.
然后我就无法承担和妈妈在一起的责任。
It's true.
这是真的。
My dad wasn't the one on the ground looking after Nainai.
我父亲并不是负责照顾奶奶的人。
He left China when he was just a teenager.
他十几岁的时候就离开了中国。
His older brother has lived in Japan for 24 years.
他的哥哥在日本生活了 24 年。
The person who was on the ground was Nainai's younger sister.
地上的人是奶奶的妹妹。
This is her, my Nainai's sister, my great aunt.
这就是她，我奶奶的妹妹，我的大姨妈。
She looks almost identical to Nainai.
她和奈奈长得几乎一模一样。
In Chinese, I call her [CHINESE], which translates to Little Aunt Grandma.
用中文，我叫她[CHINESE]，翻译过来就是小姨奶奶。
But I'll just call her Little Nainai for this story.
但在这个故事里我就叫她小奈奈吧。
Little Nainai lives in the apartment right upstairs from Nainai, and they're very close.
小奈奈住在奈奈楼上的公寓里，他们的关系很近。
She was the one who picked up the results of Nainai's physical.
奶奶的体检结果是她拿到的。
It's customary in China for doctors to give bad news to family members rather than giving it directly to the patient, especially if the patient is older.
在中国，医生通常会将坏消息告诉家人，而不是直接告诉患者，尤其是当患者年龄较大时。
Nainai's doctor recommended that Nainai be immediately hospitalized for treatment.
奶奶的医生建议奶奶立即住院治疗。
She's saying the doctor told her the cancer was very advanced.
她说医生告诉她癌症已经非常晚期了。
To not hospitalize her would be irresponsible.
不让她住院是不负责任的。
Of course, in order to hospitalize Nainai, it means they'd actually have to tell her she's sick.
当然，为了让奶奶住院，这意味着他们实际上必须告诉她她生病了。
Little Nainai told the doctor that Nainai is too old, that she couldn't handle a blow like this.
小奈奈告诉医生，奈奈年纪太大了，承受不了这样的打击。
It's not just that Little Nainai didn't want to upset her sister with the news of her death.
小奈奈不仅仅是不想让妹妹的死讯让她难过。
She actually believed that not telling her was a way to prolong her life.
她实际上相信不告诉她是延长生命的一种方式。
Knowing Nainai's personality, Little Nainai worried that her sister would get overwhelmed with fear and depression.
了解奶奶的性格，小奶奶担心妹妹会感到恐惧和沮丧。
She'd stop eating.
她会停止进食。
She'd stop sleeping.
她会停止睡觉。
She'd lose interest in life.
她会对生活失去兴趣。
The Chinese believe that mental and emotional health are completely linked to physical health.
中国人认为，心理和情绪健康与身体健康完全相关。
She tells me there's a Chinese joke.
她告诉我有一个中国笑话。
Two people go get a physical.
两个人去体检。
One of them is healthy, and one of them has a terminal illness.
其中一名身体健康，一名身患绝症。
The hospital gets the results mixed up.
医院把结果搞混了。
The healthy person gets a terminal prognosis and vice versa.
健康的人得到最终的预后，反之亦然。
So then the healthy person ends up dying while the sick person ends up living.
因此，健康的人最终会死亡，而患病的人最终会活着。
That's me asking Little Nainai, is that really a joke?
那我就问小奶奶，这真的是玩笑吗？
It's not very funny.
这不太好笑。
She assured me that it was.
她向我保证是的。
My family got a second opinion, and then a third.
我的家人得到了第二种意见，然后是第三种意见。
Same prognosis-- three months, maybe less.
同样的预测——三个月，也许更短。
Little Nainai knew she needed a fake medical report to show Nainai, so she went to a print shop.
小奶奶知道自己需要一份假的医疗报告给奶奶看，于是她去了一家打印店。
They told her, we can't create a false medical record.
他们告诉她，我们不能创造虚假的医疗记录。
If you want to make something up, we could photocopy it for you.
如果您想编造一些内容，我们可以为您复印。
Little Nainai whited out the real diagnosis and wrote down words that sounded vaguely medical but unalarming, something about the nine shadows.
小奈奈把真正的诊断白了，写下了一些听上去隐约像是医学但并不令人担忧的文字，一些关于九影的事情。
My family built on that lie with an even more elaborate one.
我的家人在这个谎言的基础上又编造了一个更加复杂的谎言。
We realized we had a problem.
我们意识到我们遇到了问题。
How are we all going to manage to see Nainai before she died?
我们怎样才能在奶奶去世前见到她呢？
Family from three countries needed to say goodbye without letting Nainai know we were actually saying goodbye.
来自三个国家的家人需要在不让奈奈知道我们实际上是在告别的情况下说再见。
This would require more than Wite-Out.
这需要的不仅仅是“Wite-Out”。
My dad had an idea.
我爸爸有一个主意。
So I said, all right, your uncle, maybe we can just, you know, stage your son's wedding early, one year early.
所以我说，好吧，你叔叔，也许我们可以，你知道，提前一年，提前举办你儿子的婚礼。
Are you proud that you came up with this idea?
您为自己提出这个想法感到自豪吗？
Well, you know, I'm the-- everybody considered me as the smartest in the family.
嗯，你知道，我是——每个人都认为我是家里最聪明的。
So I mean, it's a show.
所以我的意思是，这是一场表演。
I mean--
我的意思是——
This was our plan-- a giant goodbye party disguised as a giant wedding banquet.
这就是我们的计划——一场伪装成大型婚宴的大型告别派对。
This is the lie that everybody agreed to lie.
这是每个人都同意说的谎言。
And here's how it was going to go down.
这就是它将会如何下降。
My Uncle Hai Bin's son, Liang-Liang, had recently married a Japanese woman.
我叔叔海滨的儿子亮亮最近娶了一位日本女人。
They planned to celebrate in China the next year, but now it would be in two weeks, and it would bring together family members who had not all been in the same place for 25 years.
他们原计划明年在中国庆祝，但现在是两周后，届时25年来一直没有在同一个地方的家庭成员将齐聚一堂。
My dad told Nainai that the wedding banquet had to happen immediately because that was when the groom Liang-Liang could get the time off work.
我爸告诉奶奶，婚宴必须马上举行，因为那时新郎亮亮才能下班。
How did you feel about lying?
你对说谎有什么感觉？
Lulu's Dad Well, it's not, I mean, clear cut, this is a lie and that's-- you know.
露露的爸爸嗯，我的意思是，这不是明确的，这是一个谎言，而且那是——你知道的。
Because people think lie is bad thing.
因为人们认为谎言是坏事。
But in this circumstance, you don't think that you make a bad lie.
但在这种情况下，你不认为自己撒了一个糟糕的谎言。
You think you make a good lie because that's the way that everybody wants it.
你认为你撒了一个善意的谎言，因为这是每个人都希望的方式。
And that's the way that it's supposed to be.
这就是它应该的样子。
But that wasn't the way I wanted it or thought it was supposed to be.
但这不是我想要的方式或认为它应该是这样的。
And I still wasn't convinced it would be what Nainai wanted.
我仍然不相信这会是奈奈想要的。
I was so emotional that my mom said maybe I shouldn't go, that I might cry and blow the cover.
我非常激动，妈妈说也许我不应该去，否则我可能会哭起来并揭穿真相。
I was afraid she might be right.
我担心她可能是对的。
But if I wanted to see Nainai before she died, I had to go, and I had to be part of the lie.
但如果我想在奶奶去世前见到她，我就必须去，而且我必须成为谎言的一部分。
This is from a video I took.
这是我拍摄的一个视频。
I started filming as soon as I landed.
我一落地就开始拍摄。
I brought the camcorder with me to hide behind, hoping it would help me to keep it together.
我带着摄像机躲在后面，希望它能帮助我把它放在一起。
At the arrivals gate, I heard Nainai shouting my name through the crowd.
到了到达口，我听到奶奶在人群中喊着我的名字。
She wasn't difficult to spot-- a squat figure waving a pink handkerchief from the front of the crowd.
她不难辨认——一个蹲在人群前面挥舞着粉红色手帕的身影。
She was at least a foot shorter than everyone else, and her white hair stood out.
她比其他人至少矮了一尺，一头白发格外引人注目。
"Oh, my granddaughter," she cried.
“哦，我的孙女，”她哭道。
She looked me up and down.
她上下打量着我。
You're not very skinny, she observed.
你不是很瘦，她观察到。
Your mom says you've been very busy with work.
你妈妈说你工作很忙。
I thought you'd be skinny, but you're not that skinny.
我以为你会很瘦，但你并没有那么瘦。
Nainai didn't look or act like someone who was sick at all.
奈奈的样子和举止一点都不像生病的人。
I asked her how she was feeling, and she said she was doing well.
我问她感觉如何，她说她感觉很好。
She had some knee pain from the years she marched across the country with the People's Liberation Army when she was 14.
14岁时，她随解放军走遍全国，膝盖有些疼痛。
If it weren't for my bad knees, she said, I'd be perfect.
她说，如果不是我的膝盖不好，我就会很完美。
My parents were delayed in Beijing that night, but the rest of the family gathered around Nainai's dinner table.
那天晚上，我父母在北京耽搁了，但家里的其他人都聚集在奶奶的餐桌旁。
Little Nainai held her little white dog on her lap, a dog they call Ellen.
小奈奈把她的小白狗抱在腿上，人们称之为艾伦。
They named Ellen after an American exchange student who had stayed with them.
他们以与他们住在一起的一位美国交换生的名字给艾伦命名。
Ellen has one trick that she can normally do on command.
艾伦有一个通常可以按照命令完成的技巧。
Everyone here is yelling, "sing, Ellen!
这里的每个人都在喊：“唱歌，艾伦！
Sing, sing!" And then, finally--
唱吧，唱吧！”然后，最后——
After dinner, Uncle Hai Bin walked me to the nearby hotel where I was staying.
吃完晚饭，海滨叔叔送我去了附近住的旅馆。
Nainai is in one of the older neighborhoods in the area.
Nainai 位于该地区较老的街区之一。
There are still unpaved paths and small food stands, but her street is being slowly engulfed by shopping malls and high rises.
仍然有未铺砌的小路和小食品摊，但她的街道正在慢慢被购物中心和高楼所吞没。
"Nainai's very sick, you know," Uncle said as we walked.
“你知道，奶奶病得很重。”我们一边走，叔叔一边说。
"She took care of you when you were little.
“你小的时候她就照顾你。
She loves you so much."
她非常爱你。”
He kept saying things I already knew, things that felt like he was trying to provoke an emotion out of me.
他一直在说一些我已经知道的事情，感觉他是在试图激发我的情绪。
"You have to be very careful not to tell her," he said.
“你必须非常小心，不要告诉她，”他说。
"You'll feel very sad, but you cannot cry." Looking back, I wonder if he was really just trying to coach himself.
“你会感到非常难过，但你不能哭。”回想起来，我想知道他是否真的只是想训练自己。
"You have to be happy," he insisted.
“你必须快乐，”他坚持说。
"I know," I said, as I stared straight ahead at the brightly lit billboards across the street.
“我知道，”我一边说，一边直视前方街对面灯火通明的广告牌。
At most events, the emotional protocol is clear.
在大多数情况下，情感协议是明确的。
You smile at weddings.
你在婚礼上微笑。
You cry at funerals.
你在葬礼上哭泣。
The confusing thing here was that this was one situation masquerading as another.
令人困惑的是，这是一种伪装成另一种情况的情况。
In China, you're actually expected to cry at a funeral-- a lot-- as a sign of respect.
在中国，人们实际上会在葬礼上哭泣——很多时候——以示尊重。
People judge you on how well you cry and how much you cry.
人们根据你哭泣的程度和程度来评价你。
My uncle understood this protocol.
我叔叔了解这个协议。
At my grandfather Yeye's funeral in 1994, Uncle Hai Bin was tasked with the duty of performing a cathartic Chinese ritual to demonstrate his great grieving.
1994 年，在我祖父爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷爷）1994年葬礼的葬礼上，海彬叔叔的任务是主持一场宣泄中式仪式，以表达他的悲痛之情。
As the eldest son, this was his designated role.
作为长子，这是他指定的角色。
He stood in the aisle in front of the coffin and raised a clay bowl over his head.
他站在棺材前的过道上，将一个陶碗举过头顶。
While crying loudly, he smashed the bowl to the ground, shattering it into countless shards.
他一边放声大哭，一边将碗摔在地上，摔成了无数碎片。
My mother hates these kinds of huge emotional displays, by the way.
顺便说一句，我母亲讨厌这种巨大的情感表现。
At her father's funeral, years ago, her family criticized her for not crying enough.
几年前，在她父亲的葬礼上，她的家人批评她哭得不够多。
The people over there, they expect you just fall on the floor and then like, like crazy people.
那边的人，他们希望你倒在地板上，然后像疯子一样。
And the shouting and crying, this is a Chinese part of, you know, their tradition.
还有喊叫和哭泣，这是中国传统的一部分。
The people die, they hire the people.
人死了，他们就雇佣人。
And if you have money, you can hire 100 people, come here, just cry.
如果你有钱，你可以雇佣100个人，来这里，哭吧。
Say one, two, three, cry!
说一、二、三，哭吧！
And one, two, three, stop!
一、二、三，停下来！
I hate that.
我讨厌那样。
[PEOPLE CHATTING IN CHINESE] Lulu Wang The next morning, my parents finally arrive.
[人们用中文聊天] 王璐璐 第二天早上，我的父母终于来了。
I'm videotaping as Nainai greets my dad at the door, asking him all kinds of questions about his flight, about a recent dental surgery he had.
我正在录像，奈奈在门口迎接我的父亲，问他各种有关他的航班的问题，有关他最近做的牙科手术的问题。
The rest of the family hovers close by, and I can see that my dad is so emotional that he can't say a single word.
家里的其他人都在附近徘徊，我看得出来爸爸情绪激动，一句话也说不出来。
He can't even look her in the eyes.
他甚至不敢看她的眼睛。
He tries to be playful and takes off her hat, then fiddles with his own sunglasses, trying to distract himself.
他试着开玩笑，摘下她的帽子，然后摆弄自己的太阳镜，试图分散自己的注意力。
Later, I was finally able to ask him what he was feeling when he walked through that door.
后来，我终于能够问他，当他走进那扇门时，他的感受是什么。
Well, you know, it's just like every son, feeling that your mom is dying, and you cannot tell and thinking that that's probably the last time that you'll see your mom.
嗯，你知道，就像每个儿子一样，感觉你的妈妈快要死了，你无法分辨并认为这可能是你最后一次见到你的妈妈。
All the family is around you.
所有的家人都在你身边。
Everybody is there.
每个人都在那里。
And everybody knows what's going on except your grandma, except my mom.
每个人都知道发生了什么事，除了你奶奶，除了我妈妈。
I was afraid to say something, then you cannot hold myself, and I'll start crying, right?
我害怕说什么，然后你就控制不住自己，我就会开始哭，对吗？
You want to say something, but you don't know what to say.
你想说点什么，但你不知道该说什么。
It's just now, there's no words to choose from.
只是现在，没有什么话可以选择。
At one point, Nainai asks him, "what's wrong?" Even though he doesn't respond, it's like she can feel the weight of his grief, and she just starts sobbing.
有一次，奈奈问他：“怎么了？”尽管他没有回应，但她似乎能感受到他悲伤的重量，她开始抽泣。
I wondered if she knew why we were all there.
我想知道她是否知道我们为什么都在那里。
Or maybe when you're 80, this is just how you greet your son who lives so far away.
或者也许当你80岁的时候，这就是你问候远方儿子的方式。
There are other relatives around, and my dad walks away from Nainai to get some space.
周围还有其他亲戚，我爸爸从奶奶身边走开，腾出一些空间。
On the video, you can hear my mom interject, her voice upbeat, trying to lighten the mood.
在视频中，你可以听到我妈妈插话，她的声音很乐观，试图缓解气氛。
After a while, Nainai takes her usual role as the matriarch and gathers everyone around, taking charge.
过了一会儿，奈奈就恢复了女族长的角色，把大家聚集到一起，负责。
She reminds us why we're all here-- the big event of Liang-Liang and his wife's marriage.
她提醒我们为什么我们都在这里——梁梁和他妻子结婚的大事。
Yes, Liang-Liang's wedding is the big event, my dad confirms quietly.
是的，亮亮的婚礼是一件大事，我爸爸轻声证实。
We all urge Nainai to relax, but she's busy giving everyone their priorities.
我们都劝奶奶放松，但她正忙着给每个人安排优先事项。
You check on the banquet hall.
你检查一下宴会厅。
You guys need to prepare your wedding speeches.
你们需要准备婚礼致辞。
You need to get over your jet lag.
你需要克服时差反应。
Seeing Nainai, who probably should be in the hospital, get so worked up over this phony wedding banquet while we stood by and watched, it felt cruel.
看着本来应该住院的奶奶为了这场假婚宴而如此激动，而我们却在一旁看着，感觉很残忍。
I went to Nainai's niece, who I call Gugu, with my concerns.
我带着我的担忧去找奶奶的侄女，我叫她咕咕。
Gugu lives close by and also helps look after Nainai.
咕咕住在附近，也帮忙照顾奈奈。
I asked her, "what if Nainai has things she wants to take care of?" "Like what," Gugu responded.
我问她：“如果奶奶有事情要处理怎么办？” “比如什么。”咕咕回答道。
I said, "I don't know.
我说：“我不知道。
None of us do.
我们谁也不知道。
That's my whole point." "No," Gugu said.
这就是我的全部观点。” “不，”咕咕说。
She doesn't have anything like that.
她没有那样的东西。
And that was the end of the discussion.
讨论就这样结束了。
The wedding celebration was held in the banquet hall of a newly-built hotel.
婚礼庆典在一家新建酒店的宴会厅举行。
Liang-Liang had on a black suit with a pale pink tie.
亮亮身穿黑色西装，系着淡粉色领带。
His Japanese wife wore a blue chiffon dress with a floral shawl.
他的日本妻子穿着蓝色雪纺连衣裙，搭配花卉披肩。
Guests approached Nainai to congratulate her, smiling.
客人们微笑着走到奶奶面前祝贺。
Like a politician at a press event, Nainai smiled back.
就像新闻发布会上的政客一样，奶奶也微笑着回应。
She shook hands.
她握手。
She kissed babies.
她亲吻了婴儿。
When it came time for the speeches, Uncle Hai Bin, my dad's brother, took to the stage first.
到了演讲时间，我爸爸的弟弟海滨叔叔第一个上台。
He fumbled a while with the microphone before looking up.
他在麦克风上摸索了一会儿，然后抬起头来。
"It's a rare opportunity for us all to be here today," he started.
“今天对我们所有人来说这是一个难得的机会，”他开始说道。
"You all knew Liang-Liang as a young child, before we left China.
“在我们离开中国之前，你们小时候都认识亮亮。
And now, he's become a man.
而现在，他已经成为一个男人了。
He's brought a wife back with him from Japan."
他从日本带了一个妻子回来。”
Uncle motioned to Liang-Liang's wife, who couldn't understand a word of Chinese.
叔叔指着亮亮的妻子，她一句中文也听不懂。
"I think we are all hoping that next time they return, they will carry with them a baby or two." The room chuckled.
“我想我们都希望他们下次回来时能带着一两个婴儿。”房间里一片笑声。
Liang-Liang translated this to his wife, and her face flushed.
亮亮将这句话翻译给妻子听，她的脸涨得通红。
"There's just one more thing," Uncle said, his voice starting to quiver.
“还有一件事，”叔叔说道，他的声音开始颤抖。
"They say that a mother's greatest joy is having her children by her side.
“他们说，母亲最大的快乐就是有孩子在身边。
My ma has sadly not had that fortune" -- he meant because he and my dad lived so far away -- "So she is lucky to have all of you to care for her."
遗憾的是，我妈妈没有那样的财富”——他的意思是因为他和我爸爸住得很远——“所以她很幸运有你们所有人来照顾她。”
He stared at Nainai in the audience, and then, as if in slow motion, tears began to stream down his face.
他盯着台下的奶奶，然后，泪水像慢动作一样从脸上流了下来。
I thought of Uncle Hai Bin at Yeye's funeral, gripping that clay bowl over his head as everyone watched, anticipating the explosion into a thousand pieces.
我想起了海斌叔叔在野野的葬礼上，他把陶碗举过头顶，所有人都在看着，期待着爆炸成一千块。
But this wasn't a funeral.
但这不是葬礼。
It was a wedding.
那是一场婚礼。
No crying, only happy.
没有哭，只有快乐。
He had warned me himself just the night before.
就在前一天晚上，他还亲自警告过我。
They were all watching.
他们都在看着。
Nainai was watching.
奈奈看着。
There was no turning back.
没有回头路了。
"Everything I am, everything I've become is because of my ma." This releases the dam.
“我的一切，我的一切，都是因为我的妈妈。”这释放了大坝。
He begins to weep uncontrollably on stage, his shoulders shaking.
他开始在舞台上失控地哭泣，肩膀颤抖。
"Ma, you're the best mom in the entire world." I looked over at Nainai, who dabbed at her eyes with her handkerchief.
“妈妈，您是世界上最好的妈妈。”我看向奶奶，她用手帕擦着眼睛。
Was she moved?
她感动了吗？
Was she suspicious?
她有怀疑吗？
Looking at her, I couldn't tell.
看着她，我说不出来。
After the speeches, the bride and groom moved from table to table making toasts.
致辞结束后，新郎新娘从一桌走到另一桌敬酒。
It didn't take a mind reader to see that Nainai didn't like the new Japanese wife.
不用读心术就能看出奈奈不喜欢这个新的日本妻子。
"I think she's quite dumb," Nainai said.
“我觉得她很蠢。”奈奈说。
"She doesn't understand anything." "That's because she doesn't speak Chinese," I reminded her.
“她什么都不懂。” “那是因为她不会说中文。”我提醒她。
"No, she insisted.
“不，她坚持说。
It's because she's dumb."
就是因为她傻。”
The bride and groom weren't used to the heavy drinking rituals of the northern Chinese and got drunk fast.
新娘和新郎不习惯中国北方的酗酒习惯，很快就喝醉了。
I mean, they had to drink at every single table.
我的意思是，他们必须在每张桌子上喝酒。
Liang-Liang, the groom, constantly looked like he was about to cry.
新郎亮亮总是一副快要哭的样子。
And after the drinking, he could no longer hold it in.
而喝完之后，他就再也按耐不住了。
He started to bawl until his face turned bright red.
他开始嚎啕大哭，直到脸变成鲜红色。
His wife's eyes were wide with panic as she scanned the room for help.
他的妻子惊慌地睁大了眼睛，扫视房间寻求帮助。
Gugu motioned wildly to me from across the room as we all swooped in to try and form a barricade around the sobbing groom.
咕咕在房间的另一边疯狂地向我示意，我们都猛扑过去，试图在哭泣的新郎周围形成路障。
We told Nainai that Liang-Liang was probably just too happy, that he was crying tears of joy.
我们告诉奶奶，靓靓可能是太高兴了，喜极而泣。
The night after the wedding, we all went out to a restaurant.
婚礼后的那天晚上，我们一起去了一家餐馆。
After a massive feast, we played a drinking game.
一顿丰盛的盛宴之后，我们玩起了喝酒游戏。
Nainai laughed so hard that she cried, and then laughed some more.
奈奈笑得哭了，然后又笑了起来。
It was hard to distinguish which smiles were real and which ones were faked for Nainai's sake.
很难辨别哪些笑容是真笑，哪些是为了奈奈而假笑。
While I struggled with the grief of saying goodbye, Nainai focused on the future, a future she assumed she'd be part of.
当我在告别的悲伤中挣扎时，奈奈专注于未来，她认为自己会成为未来的一部分。
"When you get married," she told me, "I'll have an even bigger wedding banquet for you." She also asked when I'd have a baby, saying that she was looking forward to holding my child.
“等你结婚了，”她告诉我，“我会为你办一场更盛大的婚宴。”她还问我什么时候要孩子，说她很期待抱我的孩子。
I had no idea when any of that might happen, but I played along.
我不知道什么时候会发生这种事，但我还是配合了。
We planned what my wedding banquet would look like and talked about how to balance my career once I had this hypothetical kid.
我们计划了我的婚宴会是什么样子，并讨论了一旦我有了这个假想的孩子，如何平衡我的事业。
Lying made me sick to my stomach.
说谎让我胃部不适。
"Listen," my mom tried to reassure me, "your Nainai would appreciate that we're lying to her.
“听着，”我妈妈试图让我放心，“你的奶奶会感激我们对她撒谎。
Otherwise, why would she have done the same thing to your grandfather?" This was the first time I'd heard of this.
不然的话，她怎么会对你爷爷做同样的事呢？”这是我第一次听说这个。
I was only 10 when Yeye was diagnosed with liver cancer.
当Yeye被诊断出患有肝癌时，我只有10岁。
As it turns out, no one told him about his condition, either.
事实证明，也没有人告诉他他的病情。
As his wife, Nainai was the key decision-maker in that situation.
作为他的妻子，奈奈是当时的关键决策者。
He had severe jaundice and was barely lucid when Nainai finally gave him the bad news in the hospital.
当奶奶终于在医院告诉他这个坏消息时，他已经患有严重的黄疸，神智还算清醒。
"I need to tell you something, old-timer," she began.
“我需要告诉你一件事，老朋友，”她开始说道。
He succumbed to the cancer three days later.
三天后，他因癌症去世。
I asked my dad about this, and he said, in truth, Yeye knew.
我问过我爸，他说，其实夜夜都知道。
No one told him, but deep down, people can feel when they're really dying.
没有人告诉他，但在内心深处，人们能感觉到自己真的快要死了。
They knew, and he knew, but everyone pretended not to know so they could all allow each other to save face.
他们知道，他也知道，但大家都装作不知道，这样才能给彼此留面子。
So did Nainai also know?
那么奈奈也知道吗？
Was she also lying to us?
难道她也对我们撒谎？
Later, Little Nainai told me that there was, in fact, a secret that Nainai had kept from us.
后来，小奶奶告诉我，其实奶奶有一个秘密瞒着我们。
[SPEAKING CHINESE].
[说中文]。
Lulu Wang [SPEAKING CHINESE].
王露露[说中文]。
That's the sound of me being totally shocked.
这是我彻底震惊的声音。
She tells me that in 2007, six years before the lung cancer diagnosis, Nainai had been diagnosed with breast cancer, not unusual for a woman in her 70s.
她告诉我，2007年，也就是确诊肺癌的六年前，奶奶被诊断出患有乳腺癌，这对于70多岁的女性来说并不罕见。
But my dad didn't know.
但我爸爸不知道。
My uncle didn't know.
我叔叔不知道。
I didn't know.
我不知道。
She had a mastectomy, and she'd been wearing a prosthetic breast for nine years.
她接受了乳房切除术，并且佩戴假体乳房已有九年了。
Nainai concealed this from our family and uncle's family not because she was ashamed, but so that we wouldn't worry.
奶奶向我们家和舅舅家隐瞒了这件事，并不是因为害羞，而是为了让我们不担心。
All this time that we were lying to her to protect her, she had also put on a show to protect us.
一直以来，我们为了保护她而欺骗她，她也为了保护我们而做戏。
After I left China, I immediately Skyped Nainai from home.
离开中国后，我立即在家里通过Skype联系了奈奈。
"I love you," she said in English, the few words that she knows.
“我爱你，”她用英语说，这是她所知道的几个词。
I managed to find time to Skype with her every day, just to check in.
我每天都设法抽出时间与她通过 Skype 联系，只是为了了解情况。
At first, she seemed to be doing fine and had no symptoms.
起初，她似乎状况良好，没有任何症状。
Then one day, she started to cough, and my heart sank.
然后有一天，她开始咳嗽，我的心沉了下去。
"I just have a bit of the flu," she said.
“我只是有点感冒，”她说。
"It's nothing."
“没什么。”
When the cough wouldn't go away, she suggested going to the doctor's office to pick up some medicine.
当咳嗽没有消失时，她建议去医生办公室拿一些药。
Little Nainai panicked and immediately talked her out of it.
小奶奶惊慌失措，连忙劝说她不要这么做。
But then, a few days later, Nainai stopped coughing.
但几天后，奶奶就不咳嗽了。
Three months came and went, and Nainai was still just fine.
三个月过去了，奈奈还是好好的。
Everyone was baffled.
所有人都一脸茫然。
Eventually, I couldn't keep up with the daily Skype calls, and it dwindled down to once a week, and then once a month.
最终，我无法跟上每天的 Skype 通话，逐渐减少到每周一次，然后是每月一次。
A year passed.
一年过去了。
Nainai said she felt fine, so she just decided to skip her annual checkup that year.
奶奶说她感觉很好，所以她决定不参加当年的年度体检。
And another year passed.
又一年过去了。
During her 2015 checkup, the same doctor gave the same diagnosis and prognosis-- stage 4 lung cancer, very serious, no more than three months.
2015年检查时，同一个医生给出了同样的诊断和预后——肺癌4期，非常严重，不超过三个月。
This time, Little Nainai didn't even bother to mock up a phony document.
这一次，小奈奈连假文件都懒得去模仿了。
She just told Nainai that she had lost the test results, but that everything was the same.
她只是告诉奶奶，化验结果丢失了，但是一切都一样。
Everything was fine.
一切都很好。
It's been three years now since Nainai was first diagnosed.
距离奈奈第一次确诊已经三年了。
Little Nainai is certain her big sister is still alive because of her decision to lie to her, because we gave Nainai joy instead of worry.
小奈奈因为决定对她撒谎而确信她的姐姐还活着，因为我们给了奈奈快乐而不是担忧。
My mom told me about an old Chinese belief called chongxi.
我妈妈告诉我中国有一个古老的信仰，叫做重喜。
Chong means to rinse out, and xi is joy.
冲是冲洗的意思，喜是喜悦的意思。
So chongxi is the belief that you can wash away a misfortune with joy.
所以重喜是一种可以以欢乐洗去不幸的信念。
Even though this term was never used while planning the wedding, that's essentially what we did.
尽管在筹划婚礼时从未使用过这个术语，但这基本上就是我们所做的。
And by the way, everyone in the family has their own idea of what saved Nainai.
顺便说一句，对于是什么拯救了奈奈，家里的每个人都有自己的想法。
Gugu thinks it's partly because of her weekly prayers at the local Taoist temple.
咕咕认为这部分是因为她每周都会去当地的道观祈祷。
My uncle credits Nainai's survival to some expensive miracle probiotics he bought her from Japan.
我叔叔将奈奈的幸存归功于他从日本给她买的一些昂贵的神奇益生菌。
Since Nainai seemed to be doing fine, my parents suggested getting a less expensive brand of probiotics, and Uncle Hai Bin being freaked out.
由于奶奶看起来状况不错，我父母建议买一个便宜一点的益生菌，海斌叔叔吓坏了。
"If we switch it and she dies, then it's on you."
“如果我们换了位置而她死了，那就由你来承担了。”
When this whole thing started, I felt like the only rational person in my family, the lone westerner defending my grandmother against old-fashioned beliefs.
当这整件事开始时，我感觉自己是家里唯一理性的人，是唯一一个捍卫我祖母反对旧式信仰的西方人。
As it turns out, my mom agreed with me.
事实证明，我妈妈同意了我的看法。
But she and my dad just understand both sides.
但她和我爸爸只是了解双方。
I'm pretty sure a lot of other Americans would feel the way that I felt, that somebody's going to die.
我很确定很多其他美国人都会有和我一样的感受，有人会死。
It's their right to know.
这是他们的知情权。
Yeah.
是的。
But we just think that's not your business.
但我们只是认为这不关你的事。
You not live with her, and so--
你没有和她住在一起，所以——
OK.
好的。
But do you understand where I was coming from?
但你明白我从哪里来吗？
Do you understand why I was conflicted?
你明白我为什么矛盾吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I know.
我知道。
But that's China.
但这是中国。
That's a different world, OK?
那是一个不同的世界，好吗？
People go into a funeral, and you have to hold a pillow around the house three times.
人们去参加葬礼，你必须抱着枕头绕着房子转三圈。
And in this country, you don't do that, right?
在这个国家，你不会这样做，对吧？
So you not use your culture to push to them.
所以你不能用你的文化来推动他们。
This make chaos.
这会造成混乱。
I wonder now if my mom or dad was diagnosed with something terminal and I knew and they didn't, would I lie to them?
我现在想知道，如果我的妈妈或爸爸被诊断出患有绝症，而我知道而他们不知道，我会向他们撒谎吗？
And if it was me, would I want to know?
如果是我，我会想知道吗？
What my family did was kind, and it worked-- maybe.
我的家人所做的一切都是善意的，而且它确实有效——也许吧。
I'm reminded of a joke about a physicist visiting his colleague, Niels Bohr, and expressed his surprise at finding a good-luck horseshoe hanging on the wall.
我想起一个笑话，讲的是一位物理学家拜访他的同事尼尔斯·玻尔，并表达了他对发现墙上挂着一个好运马蹄铁的惊讶之情。
"Surely you're not superstitious?" "Oh, no," Niels Bohr says.
“你肯定不迷信吧？” “哦，不，”尼尔斯·玻尔说。
"But I'm told it works whether you believe in it or not." I know that doesn't seem like a joke, but you know what I'm saying.
“但我听说无论你信不信它都有效。”我知道这看起来不像是一个笑话，但你知道我在说什么。
Lulu Wang.
王璐璐.
She's a filmmaker.
她是一名电影制片人。
Her first feature, called Posthumous , comes out this summer.
她的第一部故事片《死后》将于今年夏天上映。
Coming up, the stuff that all of us don't know we don't know, a scientist actually tries to measure it.
接下来，我们所有人都不知道我们不知道的东西，科学家实际上试图测量它。
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
This American Life .
这美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program, In Defense of Ignorance, stories making the case for not knowing-- a case, I admit, you do not hear very often.
今天的节目《捍卫无知》讲述了一些为无知辩护的故事——我承认，这种情况你不常听到。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Ignorance for Dummies.
第二幕，傻瓜无知。
So in the first half of our show, we heard a woman who was kept in ignorance by her family.
所以在我们节目的前半部分，我们听到了一个被家人蒙蔽的女人。
In this half of the show, we're going to turn to people who are just ignorant.
在节目的这半部分中，我们将转向那些无知的人。
They just don't know stuff, and they don't know what they don't know, which-- hello-- turns out to be all of us.
他们只是不知道一些东西，他们也不知道自己不知道什么，而我们所有人都是如此。
Sean Cole has details and empirical data.
肖恩·科尔有详细信息和经验数据。
There's this story about ignorance that David Dunning really loves.
大卫·邓宁非常喜欢这个关于无知的故事。
He's a psychology professor, and he's even cited it in his research.
他是一位心理学教授，他甚至在他的研究中引用了这一点。
It's about a guy named McArthur Wheeler, who in 1995 robbed a couple of banks in Pennsylvania and didn't wear a mask.
这是关于一个名叫麦克阿瑟·惠勒 (McArthur Wheeler) 的人的故事，他于 1995 年抢劫了宾夕法尼亚州的几家银行，而且没有戴口罩。
And he was arrested.
他被捕了。
And the police basically said, "well, we have you on the surveillance tapes." And he said, "no, you don't." And they showed him the tapes.
警察基本上说，“好吧，我们把你录在了监控录像里。”他说：“不，你不知道。”他们给他看了录像带。
And he saw his face.
他看到了他的脸。
And he stared incredulously and said, "but I wore the juice.
他难以置信地瞪着眼睛说：“但我涂了果汁。
I wore the juice."
我喝了果汁。”
The juice?
果汁？
David Dunning Yes.
大卫·邓宁 是的。
Apparently, McArthur Wheeler was under the impression that smearing your face with lemon juice made it fuzzy or invisible to video cameras.
显然，麦克阿瑟·惠勒认为，用柠檬汁涂抹脸部会使脸部变得模糊或在摄像机中看不见。
To his credit, he had actually tested this theory.
值得赞扬的是，他实际上测试了这个理论。
He took a selfie, but I think he misaimed the camera.
他拍了一张自拍照，但我认为他拿错了相机。
The thing about McArthur Wheeler wasn't just that he was an idiot.
麦克阿瑟·惠勒的问题不仅仅在于他是个白痴。
It was that he thought he was doing everything right, which made David Dunning think--
正是他认为自己做的每件事都是正确的，这让大卫·邓宁想到——
When people are wrong or when they're performing poorly or, for lack of a better word, when they're incompetent, do they know they're incompetent?
当人们犯错或表现不佳时，或者找不到更好的词来形容他们无能时，他们知道自己无能吗？
And he had a guess, which was no. They do not know they're incompetent.
他有一个猜测，结果是否定的。他们不知道自己无能。
And so we decided to do some experiments and find out.
所以我们决定做一些实验来找出答案。
Now, this may not sound like something you can easily test for.
现在，这听起来可能不像是可以轻松测试的东西。
It's like trying to measure the height and weight of somebody's insecurity.
这就像试图测量一个人不安全感的身高和体重。
But Professor Dunning and his grad student partner, Justin Kruger, figured out a way to do it.
但邓宁教授和他的研究生伙伴贾斯汀·克鲁格找到了一种方法。
They got different groups of undergrads together-- this was at Cornell University-- and gave them one of three quizzes.
他们将不同组的本科生聚集在一起——这是在康奈尔大学——并给他们三个测验之一。
One was on grammar, another on logical reasoning, and another, weirdly, on humor-- like, which one of these jokes is the funniest?
一个是关于语法的，另一个是关于逻辑推理的，还有一个，奇怪的是，是关于幽默的——比如，这些笑话中哪一个是最有趣的？
And they had a panel of comedians write the jokes ahead of time.
他们让一群喜剧演员提前写好笑话。
And at the end of the quizzes, they asked each student a simple question-- how well do you think you did?
在测验结束时，他们问每个学生一个简单的问题——你认为自己做得怎么样？
Or more specifically, in what percentile did you land?
或者更具体地说，您处于哪个百分位？
That is, what percentage of the other students taking the test do you think you beat?
也就是说，您认为您击败了参加考试的其他学生的百分比是多少？
And then they gathered together all of that data and ran the numbers.
然后他们收集所有数据并计算数字。
And I still remember looking at the first graph to this day.
直到今天我仍然记得看过第一张图。
And the big finding is we took a look at the bottom 25% of people in each study.
最重要的发现是我们对每项研究中排名垫底 25% 的人进行了调查。
These are the people who had done the worst.
这些人是做得最糟糕的人。
Their scores are falling in the 11th, the 12th, the 13th percentile.
他们的分数下降到第 11、第 12、第 13 个百分点。
But they think they're performing in the 60th, the 65th, the 70th percentile.
但他们认为自己的表现处于第 60、65、70 个百分点。
Among the better percentiles.
属于较好的百分位数。
David Dunning That's right.
大卫·邓宁 是的。
They think that they've beat out a majority of their peers.
他们认为自己已经击败了大多数同龄人。
One way to think about it-- if you look at people basically who are about to get D's and F's with the exam they've just handed in, they think they're getting B's, B-pluses with the exam they just handed in.
一种思考方式——如果你看看那些在刚刚提交的考试中即将获得 D 和 F 的人，他们会认为他们在刚刚提交的考试中获得了 B、B+。
In short, there seemed to be a direct correlation between incompetence and an overweening sense of self-confidence.
简而言之，无能和过度自信之间似乎存在直接关联。
It wasn't apparent in every poor-performing student, but it was in the majority of them.
这种情况并非在每个表现不佳的学生身上都很明显，但在他们中的大多数人身上都存在。
Most people who did badly thought they did just fine or even great.
大多数表现不佳的人都认为自己做得很好甚至很棒。
They had no idea.
他们不知道。
Now, anybody who's ever gone to school, worked a job, or known any other people knows this phenomenon.
现在，任何上过学、工作过或认识其他人的人都知道这种现象。
There's that guy or lady who's cocky and yet has no idea what they're doing, and it's infuriating.
有些男人或女人很自大，但却不知道自己在做什么，这令人愤怒。
But here in Dunning's lab, it wasn't just an annoyance.
但在邓宁的实验室里，这不仅仅是一种烦恼。
It was a repeatable finding.
这是一个可重复的发现。
They did this experiment four times with four different groups of students, and it happened every time.
他们对四组不同的学生做了四次这个实验，每次都会发生这种情况。
Bottom performers thought they were at least above average.
表现最差的人认为他们至少高于平均水平。
And in 1999, Dunning and Kruger published their findings in a paper called "Unskilled and Unaware of It."
1999 年，邓宁和克鲁格在一篇名为《不熟练且不了解这一点》的论文中发表了他们的发现。
And their conclusion was this-- when someone asks, so how do you think you did, and you open your mouth to answer, you're drawing on the same skill set to answer that question that you used to answer the questions on the test.
他们的结论是这样的——当有人问你认为你做得怎么样时，你张开嘴回答，你就利用了与你在测试中回答问题时相同的技能来回答这个问题。
That is, the lack of skill means not only are you going to make a lot of mistakes, but it also means you're not going to be able to catch mistakes, yours or anybody else's.
也就是说，缺乏技能不仅意味着你会犯很多错误，而且还意味着你无法发现错误，无论是你的还是其他人的。
You're going to think, often, that what you're saying is absolutely reasonable.
你常常会认为你所说的是绝对合理的。
This is the double curse.
这就是双重诅咒。
It's not that you're ignorant and also happen to be overconfident.
这并不是说你无知，也不是你过于自信。
You're ignorant, and it makes you overconfident.
你无知，这让你过于自信。
On the other hand, students who scored well, who really were in the higher percentiles, they tended to guess that they scored a little worse than they actually did, and for kind of an endearing reason.
另一方面，那些成绩好的学生，那些确实处于较高百分位数的学生，他们倾向于猜测自己的成绩比实际成绩要差一些，并且出于某种可爱的原因。
They figured most of the kids around them knew as much as they did.
他们认为周围的大多数孩子都知道和他们一样多。
In other words, they weren't mistaken about themselves.
换句话说，他们并没有认错自己。
They knew themselves pretty well.
他们非常了解自己。
They simply misjudged other people, thinking, well, they're probably as smart as I am.
他们只是误判了其他人，认为他们可能和我一样聪明。
Over the years, Dunning and other researchers have run the same experiment in different ways over and over again.
多年来，邓宁和其他研究人员以不同的方式一遍又一遍地进行相同的实验。
And the result was pervasive-- competitive debaters who were doing badly didn't know they were doing badly, people at chess tournaments, trap and skeet shooters when they're quizzed on gun safety, medical professionals.
结果是普遍存在的——表现不佳的竞争辩手并不知道自己表现不佳，参加国际象棋锦标赛的人，飞碟和双向飞碟射击者在接受枪支安全问题时的提问，以及医疗专业人员。
Medical professionals.
医疗专业人员。
You'll find for some procedures, for example, that the interns-- like catheterization procedures.
例如，您会发现对于某些程序，实习生喜欢导管插入术。
[DRAWING BREATH] Exactly.
[呼吸] 没错。
80% of them think they know this technique so well they can teach it to other people, whereas zero of their instructors agree.
80% 的人认为他们非常了解这项技术，可以将其教给其他人，而他们的教练中只有零人表示同意。
In fact, 50% of their instructors say, no. This person needs still to be supervised whenever they do this.
事实上，50% 的导师说不。每当这个人这样做时，仍然需要受到监督。
And like all psychological phenomenon, this one pretty quickly grew a name.
和所有心理现象一样，这一现象很快就名声大噪。
Dunning was insistent that he and Kruger had nothing to do with the coining of that name.
邓宁坚称他和克鲁格与这个名字的创造无关。
The name-- the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
名字——邓宁-克鲁格效应。
If you, for example, go on Twitter and type in Dunning-Kruger, you'll see the effect mentioned several times a day.
例如，如果您在 Twitter 上输入 Dunning-Kruger，您就会看到每天多次提到的效果。
Several times a day?
一天几次？
David Dunning Several times a day.
大卫·邓宁 一天几次。
Well, I have a computer in front of me.
嗯，我面前有一台电脑。
And I'm going to Twitter.
我要去推特。
And let me just put in Dunning-Kruger.
让我加入邓宁-克鲁格。
Oh, here we go.
哦，我们开始吧。
Trump is a static display of Dunning-Kruger in effect.
特朗普实际上是邓宁-克鲁格的静态展示。
Where did you get your biology PhD, Dunning-Kruger University?
您在哪里获得生物学博士学位，邓宁克鲁格大学？
Your clueless rants merely reinforce your ignorance.
你无知的咆哮只会加剧你的无知。
No, so very happy to get a meme out there in the world, unhappy that so many people use it as an epithet.
不，很高兴能在世界上出现一个模因，但不高兴有这么多人用它作为绰号。
That it's your name that they're using as an epithet.
他们用你的名字作为绰号。
Exactly.
确切地。
Sean Cole It's just become a scientific way of calling somebody stupid, which I guess we were sorely in need of.
肖恩·科尔：这已经成为一种称某人愚蠢的科学方式，我想我们非常需要这种方式。
But I think the thing that people in general miss is that we're not talking about the brain of the incompetent.
但我认为人们普遍忽视的一点是，我们并不是在谈论无能者的大脑。
We're talking about the brain of all of us because sooner or later, we step into that group.
我们谈论的是我们所有人的大脑，因为我们迟早会进入那个群体。
Sooner or later, we become the poor performers.
迟早，我们会成为表现不佳的人。
We all have our specific pockets of incompetence, and we know some of them.
我们都有自己特有的无能之处，并且我们知道其中的一些。
But there are a lot of them we simply don't know.
但其中有很多我们根本不知道。
And once we step into our own incompetence, we don't know we've made the step.
一旦我们意识到自己的无能，我们就不知道自己已经迈出了这一步。
This is really the disheartening stoner insight of this research.
这确实是这项研究令人沮丧的洞察力。
If you think you're doing well, it means one of two things-- either you're doing well or you're not doing well at all.
如果你认为自己做得很好，则意味着以下两件事之一：要么你做得很好，要么你根本就做得不好。
Try not to think about it too long.
尽量不要想太久。
Really.
真的。
David Dunning, who has thought about it more than anyone, says it's made him particularly vigilant about the things he says and does and how he acts, like trying to catch a candid glimpse of yourself in a mirror.
大卫·邓宁（David Dunning）对此的思考比任何人都多，他说这让他对自己所说、所做的事情以及自己的行为方式特别警惕，就像试图在镜子里瞥见自己一样。
This one time for instance, he was teaching a class, giving them an exam.
例如，有一次，他正在教一堂课，给他们考试。
And at the end of it, he asked the students the Dunning-Kruger question-- how do you think you did?
最后，他问学生们邓宁-克鲁格问题——你认为你做得怎么样？
And sure enough, when he looked back at the tests, he noticed this one kid in particular who got one of the lowest grades in the group and rated himself in the 80th percentile.
果然，当他回顾测试时，他特别注意到这个孩子是小组中成绩最低的一个，并且对自己的评价是第 80 个百分位。
And I decided, well I am going to peek at the name because I just have a suspicion I'm going to see this person in my office.
我决定，我要看看这个名字，因为我怀疑我会在我的办公室看到这个人。
And indeed, when the test was handed back, he did come into my office because he did want to offer me a chance, graciously, to admit that the answers that I had designated as correct on the exam were actually wrong.
事实上，当试卷发回时，他确实来到了我的办公室，因为他确实想给我一个机会，慷慨地承认我在考试中指定的正确答案实际上是错误的。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
David Dunning And so he was really trying hard to be gracious.
大卫·邓宁：所以他真的很努力表现得有礼貌。
I could see some vibrations of outrage in his body.
我可以看到他身体里有一些愤怒的振动。
And part of my brain is going, watch this.
我大脑的一部分正在运转，看这个。
Analyze this.
对此进行分析。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
What's psychologically happening?
心理上发生了什么？
Then I've got another part of my brain kind of going, are you sure it's not you?
然后我大脑的另一部分开始运转，你确定那不是你吗？
Are you sure it's not you?
你确定不是你？
Because I think it would be embarrassing for a person who has proposed the Dunning-Kruger framework to actually publicly display Dunning-Kruger.
因为我认为提出邓宁-克鲁格框架的人实际上公开展示邓宁-克鲁格会很尴尬。
But the sad, sad truth is what I'd dearly love would be to be able to see me in this circumstance, to be aware of, OK.
但令人悲伤的事实是，我非常希望能够在这种情况下看到自己，并意识到这一点，好吧。
I am having a Dunning-Kruger moment.
我正在经历邓宁-克鲁格时刻。
But according to my own theory, I'll never have it.
但根据我自己的理论，我永远不会拥有它。
That's because other people can see when we're doing the Dunning-Kruger dance, but we can't.
那是因为当我们跳邓宁-克鲁格舞时，其他人可以看到，但我们看不到。
Which makes you think, why doesn't anybody say anything?
这让你想，为什么没有人说什么？
When it's little stuff-- your fly is down, you have stuff on your face-- your real friends, and even some strangers, will tell you.
当一些小事时——你的苍蝇掉下来了，你脸上有东西——你真正的朋友，甚至一些陌生人，都会告诉你。
But somehow, when you're blowing a huge word balloon full of wrongness, that's when the rest of us decide to be polite, to go along.
但不知何故，当你吹出一个充满错误的巨大文字气球时，我们其他人就决定保持礼貌，同意。
Because to correct that weirdly confident, know-nothing jerk in the office just seems mean, like it's not our place.
因为纠正办公室里那个异常自信、一无所知的混蛋似乎很卑鄙，就好像这不是我们的位置。
But maybe it's meaner not to correct him.
但也许不纠正他更卑鄙。
The real sadness, for me, is that often, people are going to suffer for their mistakes.
对我来说，真正的悲伤是，人们常常会因为自己的错误而受苦。
But they're never going to know it because if a person is a jerk in the office, what happens is all the parties they aren't invited to, all the wonderful social interactions, they just don't get to experience.
但他们永远不会知道这一点，因为如果一个人在办公室里是个混蛋，那么发生的事情就是他们没有被邀请参加的所有聚会，所有美妙的社交互动，他们只是无法体验。
And it's likely that they don't notice the absence of this.
他们很可能没有注意到这一点的缺失。
So you don't know you're incompetent.
所以你不知道自己无能。
You can't figure it out on your own.
你自己无法弄清楚。
And the world is treating you by being silent.
而世界却以沉默对待你。
Well, how do you improve yourself under those conditions?
那么，在这种情况下，你如何提高自己呢？
I should say that Dunning and Kruger's research has been criticized over the years.
我应该说，邓宁和克鲁格的研究多年来一直受到批评。
Other researchers have tried to punch holes in their conclusion, even going so far as to publish papers with alternative statistical explanations for Dunning and Kruger's findings.
其他研究人员试图在他们的结论中找出漏洞，甚至发表论文，对邓宁和克鲁格的发现提供替代的统计解释。
And Dunning says he and his partner have responded to those critics, in print, and may have convinced some, but certainly not all of them, which he actually takes to be a plus.
邓宁说，他和他的搭档已经以印刷形式回应了这些批评者，并且可能说服了一些人，但肯定不是全部，他实际上认为这是一个优势。
Because the critics they haven't convinced are really confident in their opinions.
因为他们没有说服的批评家对他们的观点确实很有信心。
And Dunning and Kruger are really confident in theirs.
邓宁和克鲁格对他们的确实充满信心。
So one or the other is dead wrong and just doesn't know it.
所以其中一个是完全错误的，只是他们不知道而已。
Sean Cole is one of the producers of our show.
肖恩·科尔是我们节目的制片人之一。
Act Three, Forget Me Not.
第三幕，勿忘我。
Our program today is about ignorance.
我们今天的节目是关于无知的。
And of course, a huge part of all of our ignorance is the stuff that we used to know that we've all forgotten.
当然，我们无知的很大一部分是我们曾经知道但现在都忘记了的事情。
All our lives, there's a huge undertow of forgetting that sucks old classmates' names into the abyss, the French that we studied that we never used, and the plots and casts of favorite movies we used to love.
我们的一生，都有一股巨大的遗忘浪潮，将老同学的名字、我们学过的从未用过的法语、我们曾经喜欢的最喜欢的电影的情节和演员，吸进深渊。
Most of us, of course, see this as a curse, according to Stephanie Foo.
当然，我们大多数人都认为这是一种诅咒，斯蒂芬妮·符 (Stephanie Foo) 表示。
I have several large, unwieldy boxes stacked in corners of my apartment.
我的公寓角落里堆放着几个又大又笨重的盒子。
I almost never open them.
我几乎从不打开它们。
But I've schlepped these boxes through the 12 tiny apartments I've lived in in the past decade.
但在过去的十年里，我已经把这些盒子搬进了我住过的 12 间小公寓里。
They're full of notebooks, external hard drives, thousands of sheets of paper, photographs, VHS tapes, full of all my memories, starting with journals I wrote when I was five years old.
它们充满了笔记本、外部硬盘、数千张纸、照片、VHS磁带，充满了我所有的记忆，从我五岁时写的日记开始。
The idea that there are whole weeks, even months, of my life that have just disappeared into the abyss of forgetfulness is horrifying to me.
一想到我生命中的整整几周甚至几个月就消失在遗忘的深渊中，我就感到恐惧。
If I can't take these memories with me through the rest of my life, then what's the point of even living them in the first place?
如果我不能在余生中带着这些记忆，那么当初活在其中还有什么意义呢？
To hold onto the past, a couple times a month, I'll sit at my kitchen table, alone in my apartment, and I'll just start recording these long soliloquies about whatever.
为了怀念过去，每月几次，我会独自坐在公寓里的厨房桌子旁，然后开始记录这些关于任何事情的长篇独白。
Here's one actual recording from February 24, 2014, 11 PM.
这是 2014 年 2 月 24 日晚上 11 点的真实录音。
--a six-pack of Corona and Pacifica was $11, which I thought was super atrocious.
——六包 Corona and Pacifica 售价 11 美元，我觉得这太贵了。
And so I tried to buy, like, whatever, like a four-pack of cans of Corona-- cans.
所以我试着买，比如，不管怎样，比如四罐装的科罗娜罐头。
And he was like, oh, that's $9.
他说，哦，那是 9 美元。
And I was like, well, I might as well just buy the [BLEEP] six-packs.
我想，好吧，我还不如买[BLEEP] 六包。
Because I'm sure in the year 2030, that memory is going to be helpful.
因为我确信到 2030 年，这种记忆将会有所帮助。
So all this to say that my obsession with my ever-fleeting memories is what made me really excited when I heard about this condition called HSAM.
所以这一切都表明，当我听说这种称为 HSAM 的病症时，我对转瞬即逝的记忆的痴迷让我感到非常兴奋。
It stands for Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory.
它代表高度卓越的自传体记忆。
June 10, 2006-- tell me what was the weather like and what day was that?
2006 年 6 月 10 日——告诉我天气怎么样，那一天是什么日子？
So June 10, 2006 was a Saturday.
所以 2006 年 6 月 10 日是星期六。
And I remember it was a nice, sunny day because I was outside for a graduation party.
我记得那是一个阳光明媚的好日子，因为我在外面参加毕业派对。
I was actually deejaying the party.
我实际上是在为聚会主持节目。
That was one of my part-time jobs in college.
那是我大学时的兼职工作之一。
Joey DeGrandis is one of only about 60 people in the world who have been officially found to have HSAM.
乔伊·德格兰迪斯 (Joey DeGrandis) 是世界上仅有的大约 60 名被正式发现患有 HSAM 的人之一。
And by the way, I checked-- it was a Saturday and, in Chagrin Falls, Ohio, sunny.
顺便说一句，我查了一下——那是一个星期六，在俄亥俄州查格林福尔斯，天气晴朗。
Joey remembers very specific details from every single day of the last 25 years of his life.
乔伊记得他生命最后 25 年里每一天的具体细节。
I'm sitting across the table from him when I ask him these random questions.
当我问他这些随机问题时，我坐在他对面。
He wasn't prepped on any of them.
他对其中任何一个都没有做好准备。
He's not using his phone to look anything up.
他没有使用手机来查找任何内容。
When were the Oscars in 1999?
1999年奥斯卡颁奖典礼是什么时候？
Joey Degrandis The Oscars in '99 were on Sunday, March 21.
乔伊·德格兰迪斯 99 年的奥斯卡颁奖典礼于 3 月 21 日星期日举行。
Oh, my God!
哦，天哪！
Joey Degrandis For a little bonus, I think Whoopi Goldberg hosted it that year.
乔伊·德格兰迪斯（Joey Degrandis） 为了一点额外的好处，我想乌比·戈德堡（Whoopi Goldberg）当年主持了它。
I think.
我认为。
OK-- which episode is the one where Rachel quits?
好吧——瑞秋退出的是哪一集？
OK.
好的。
I like the first few seasons of Friends more than the others.
比起其他几季，我更喜欢《老友记》的前几季。
So I think that that was season 3.
所以我认为那是第三季。
I want to say December 12, '96.
我想说的是96年12月12日。
People with HSAM don't remember everything in their lives, and their memories can be flawed and biased, just like everyone else's.
患有 HSAM 的人并不记得他们生活中的一切，他们的记忆可能有缺陷和有偏见，就像其他人一样。
But they remember a whole hell of a lot more than we do and are particularly good at remembering things they care about.
但他们比我们记得多得多，而且特别擅长记住他们关心的事情。
People with HSAM who love sports have an encyclopedic knowledge of scores.
热爱运动、拥有 HSAM 的人对分数有着百科全书式的了解。
Joey's really good with TV shows.
乔伊非常擅长电视节目。
And he tells me it's kind of like all the memories are available at any given time for him to sort of scroll through.
他告诉我，这有点像所有的记忆都可以在任何给定的时间供他滚动浏览。
For the show Mad Men , Don is pitching, I think, Kodak.
我认为，对于《广告狂人》节目，唐正在推销柯达。
And, you know, he's talking about the projector, how it's sort of a carousel of memory.
而且，你知道，他正在谈论投影仪，它是一种记忆轮播。
And it's not spot on, how I remember things.
我的记忆方式并不准确。
But it's pretty damn close.
但它非常接近。
A carousel of memory?
记忆的旋转木马？
Joey Degrandis Yeah.
乔伊·德格兰迪斯 是的。
And I think that the words-- I'm trying to recall exactly the voiceover for this teaser.
我认为这些话——我正在努力准确地回忆起这个预告片的画外音。
But it was something like, there's a rare occasion when the public can be engaged.
但这就像是，公众可以参与的情况很少见。
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
Here's that scene.
这就是那个场景。
Don Draper There's the rare occasion when the public can be engaged on a level beyond flash.
唐·德雷珀 (Don Draper) 很少有机会让公众参与到超越闪光的程度。
Delicate but potent, you know?
精致但有力，你知道吗？
It takes us to a place where we long to go again.
它带我们去一个我们渴望再次去的地方。
It takes us to a place where we ache to go again.
它带我们去一个我们渴望再次去的地方。
You know?
你知道？
And that's exactly how I feel when I think about my memories.
当我想起我的记忆时，这正是我的感受。
You want to be there?
你想去那里吗？
Joey Degrandis Sometimes I am there, whether or not I choose to.
乔伊·德格兰迪斯 有时我会在那里，无论我是否愿意。
You know how Facebook gives you notifications about what you posted a year ago today?
您知道 Facebook 如何向您发送有关您一年前今天发布的内容的通知吗？
Joey DeGrandis plays that game in his head all the time.
乔伊·德格兰迪斯脑子里一直在玩这个游戏。
He texts friends on a regular basis, saying, "hey, you moved to New York three years ago today," or, "hey, six months ago today, we went karaokeing in that little basement bar." His friends tell me they enjoy the updates.
他定期给朋友发短信，说：“嘿，你三年前的今天搬到了纽约，”或者，“嘿，六个月前的今天，我们在那个地下室的小酒吧里唱了卡拉OK。”他的朋友告诉我他们很喜欢这些更新。
It's like having your own personal biographer of your friendship.
这就像为你们的友谊拥有自己的私人传记一样。
But having HSAM is like constantly scrolling through your Facebook wall, 24/7.
但拥有 HSAM 就像不断滚动你的 Facebook 墙，24/7。
And just like any sort of late-night scrolling, it keeps him up at night.
就像任何深夜滚动一样，这让他彻夜难眠。
When Joey lies down, he just starts remembering too much.
当乔伊躺下时，他开始记起太多事情。
Lately, he thinks over and over about a guy he dated, which seems normal, except their whole relationship only lasted for a couple of months.
最近，他一遍又一遍地想起他约会过的一个男人，这似乎很正常，但他们的整个关系只持续了几个月。
And it ended two years ago.
两年前就结束了。
But Joey can't help but go through their whole relationship in incredibly minute detail on a regular basis.
但乔伊忍不住定期详细地回顾他们的整个关系。
March 19, 2014.
2014 年 3 月 19 日。
We went to Max Brenner in Union Square and had sundaes and chocolate.
我们去了联合广场的马克斯·布伦纳（Max Brenner），吃了圣代和巧克力。
And, oh, it was so fun and romantic!
而且，哦，这真是有趣又浪漫！
You know?
你知道？
Like, that was--
就像，那是——
March 20-- and he's like, oh, my God, Joey!
3 月 20 日——他说，哦，天啊，乔伊！
You're, like, the funniest person I know.
你是我认识的最有趣的人。
And, of course, my heart grew three sizes.
当然，我的心也变大了三倍。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Joey Degrandis Because I'm like, oh, this must be it!
乔伊·德格兰迪斯 因为我想，哦，一定是这个了！
The next day, he texted me a picture of his cat, and it was--
第二天，他给我发了一张他的猫的照片，内容是——
March 29, so that next week, was the first time that we had a sexual encounter.
3 月 29 日，也就是下周，我们第一次发生性行为。
And that was really exciting for me because, again, this was just, like, more confirmation of the fact that maybe this is something.
这对我来说真的很令人兴奋，因为这再次证明了这样一个事实：也许这是真的。
Maybe this is--
或许这就是——
April 19, which was Easter weekend, 2014, everything just kind of went downhill.
4 月 19 日，也就是 2014 年复活节周末，一切都开始走下坡路。
And so then it all fell apart, you know?
然后一切都崩溃了，你知道吗？
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
How do you get over someone when you can't forget them?
当你无法忘记一个人时，你该如何忘记他们？
Well, the way I explain it is you know how you've got your baggage?
好吧，我的解释是，你知道你是如何拿到行李的吗？
I got a steamer trunk.
我有一个蒸笼。
Jill Price also has HSAM.
Jill Price 也有 HSAM。
She just turned 50 and says she's got 50 years of stuff, and the steamer trunk is humongous.
她刚满 50 岁，说她有 50 年的东西，而且蒸箱很大。
Or, shifting metaphors a little--
或者，稍微变换一下比喻——
So if you were-- you know, you have, like, every day is like a bag of garbage.
所以，如果你——你知道，你每天就像一袋垃圾。
And then you go to sleep, and you wake up the next day.
然后你就去睡觉，第二天你就会醒来。
And it's a fresh day.
这是新鲜的一天。
And you can throw that garbage bag out from the day before.
你可以把前一天的垃圾袋扔掉。
I don't have that.
我没有那个。
I got massive amounts of just piled up garbage bags everywhere.
我到处都堆满了大量垃圾袋。
Jill lives in LA, and she's worked as a script supervisor.
吉尔住在洛杉矶，担任剧本主管。
On set, her HSAM was really useful because her job was to make sure that continuity was preserved throughout the film-- that someone's hair looks the same from shot to shot, that a table is set in exactly the same way.
在片场，她的 HSAM 非常有用，因为她的工作是确保整部电影保持连续性——每个镜头中某人的头发看起来都是一样的，桌子的摆放方式也完全相同。
And of course, Jill remembered how that table looked, even if the last shot happened weeks ago.
当然，吉尔记得那张桌子的样子，即使最后一次射击发生在几周前。
I called her up because I wanted to find out if resentment about the past is a side effect of HSAM for anyone other than Joey.
我打电话给她是因为我想知道对过去的怨恨是否是 HSAM 对乔伊以外的任何人的副作用。
Short answer-- yes.
简短的回答——是的。
Like, I'm still pissed about stuff from when I was five.
就像，我仍然对我五岁时的事情感到生气。
And that's ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
Jill says she can forgive, but she can never forget.
吉尔说她可以原谅，但她永远无法忘记。
But maybe not being able to forget sort of hinders her ability to forgive as well as the rest of us.
但也许无法忘记会妨碍她以及我们其他人的原谅能力。
Like, she told me she's still angry about this thing that happened in her first year at college, three decades ago.
就像，她告诉我，她仍然对三十年前在大学第一年发生的这件事感到愤怒。
Jill had this calendar that she'd used as a diary, writing down details about each of her days in cramped handwriting, so minuscule it's barely legible.
吉尔有一本她用作日记的日历，用潦草的笔迹写下了她每一天的细节，字迹很小，几乎难以辨认。
Like written all over.
就像写满了一样。
I mean, everything was on there.
我的意思是，一切都在那里。
1983 was a really important year.
1983年是非常重要的一年。
Everything was on there, everything you can imagine-- could be the weather.
一切都在那里，你能想象的一切——可能是天气。
Could be--
可能是——
Like what do you mean?
就像你的意思是什么？
Like snacks?
喜欢零食吗？
Like who you talked to?
就像你和谁说话一样？
Like, what is everything?
就像，一切是什么？
Everything!
一切！
Yes.
是的。
Everything.
一切。
Stephanie Foo Jill left the calendar at her mom's house for a few months while she went back to school, and the next time she came back, the calendar was gone.
斯蒂芬妮·福·吉尔（Stephanie Foo Jill）在回学校期间将日历留在了她妈妈家几个月，而当她下次回来时，日历却不见了。
I can't find the calendar.
我找不到日历。
I'm looking everywhere.
我到处寻找。
So I hysterically go running through the house, trying to get my parents to understand what just happened, how important this was.
所以我歇斯底里地在房子里跑来跑去，试图让我的父母明白刚刚发生了什么，这有多重要。
Like, where's my journal?
比如，我的日记在哪里？
And they're like, well, we don't know.
他们说，好吧，我们不知道。
And I remember they had somebody at the house they were talking to.
我记得他们正在和他们谈话的房子里有人。
So it was like I was interrupting some sort of a business meeting.
所以这就像我正在打断某种商务会议。
But I was also freaking out, and I didn't really care.
但我也很害怕，我并不在乎。
And even to this day, just recently, I said to my mom-- you know, I brought that up.
直到今天，就在最近，我对我妈妈说——你知道，我提起过这个。
I said, and you did not-- you really had no idea.
我说，你没有——你真的不知道。
She thought I was rehashing things.
她以为我在重复事情。
Like, why can't you just get over what happened when you were five?
比如，你为什么不能忘记你五岁时发生的事情呢？
What is this?
这是什么？
So she couldn't understand why I was bothered or so upset about things that happened decades ago.
所以她不明白为什么我对几十年前发生的事情感到困扰或如此不安。
Where to me, it was like yesterday.
对我来说，一切就像昨天一样。
Why is it, like, super tragic that you don't have that calendar now?
为什么你现在没有那个日历真是太悲惨了？
Well, I do have it because I then went back a couple years later and I rewrote the whole thing.
嗯，我确实有它，因为几年后我回去重写了整个事情。
I mean, I couldn't write every single thing.
我的意思是，我无法写出每件事。
But I tried to go back and redo the entire calendar.
但我试图回去重做整个日历。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Jill Price That was how important it was to me.
吉尔·普莱斯 这对我来说是多么重要。
Yeah.
是的。
And if it's all in your head-- it's saved in there, anyway-- then why bother writing it down?
如果这一切都在你的脑海里——无论如何，它都保存在那里——那为什么还要费力把它写下来呢？
Because if I didn't write it down, I would have, like, 50 years of stuff just constantly swirling.
因为如果我不把它写下来，我就会有 50 年的时间不断地旋转。
And writing it down just sort of relaxes it.
把它写下来可以让你放松下来。
And it makes it so that it's there.
它使它存在。
It's happened.
它发生了。
And it's put away.
并且它被收起来了。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
I talked to a number of people with HSAM, and it seems like their days are filled with random memories showing up, like bees buzzing around their head, until they can get swarmed.
我和一些患有 HSAM 的人交谈过，他们的日子似乎充满了随机出现的记忆，就像蜜蜂在他们的头上嗡嗡作响，直到他们被蜂拥而至。
By writing the stuff down, Jill manages the memories, like she's taking them one by one, cataloging them, and putting them into a filing cabinet.
通过写下这些东西，吉尔管理着记忆，就像她将它们一一记录，编目，然后将它们放入文件柜中一样。
There's a link between obsessive-compulsive disorder, OCD, and HSAM.
强迫症、OCD 和 HSAM 之间存在联系。
Maybe having the power to remember so much makes you want to obsessively do it all the time.
也许拥有记住这么多东西的能力会让你想要一直痴迷地这样做。
Or maybe it's the other way around-- desperately wanting to remember everything gives certain people the ability to do it phenomenally well.
或者也许情况正好相反——迫切地想要记住一切，使得某些人有能力做得非常好。
Either way, researchers say, they seem to go hand in hand.
研究人员表示，无论哪种方式，它们似乎都是齐头并进的。
About a year and a half ago, I had a really bad break up.
大约一年半前，我经历了一次非常糟糕的分手。
And one of the ways I got over my ex was by managing my memories, which is a pretentious way to say I told myself he was a douchebag.
我克服前任的方法之一就是管理我的记忆，这是一种自命不凡的方式，表明我告诉自己他是个混蛋。
I dwelled on all the bad parts of the relationship, all his irritating qualities.
我仔细思考了这段关系中所有不好的部分，以及他所有令人恼火的品质。
But recently, I was flipping through some entries in my journal from a few months before it got bad-- not for fun, for this story.
但最近，我翻阅了日记中的一些条目，这些条目是事情变得糟糕之前几个月的——不是为了好玩，而是为了这个故事。
I'm not that far gone.
我还没有走那么远。
In one entry, he intuited when I was feeling low and said exactly the right thing.
在一篇文章中，当我情绪低落时，他凭直觉说出了正确的话。
In another, we went to a perfect dinner where we got free dessert.
在另一次，我们吃了一顿完美的晚餐，还得到了免费的甜点。
Restaurants were constantly giving us free food.
餐馆不断地给我们提供免费食物。
We couldn't figure out why, but eventually settled on the idea that people liked us because we just looked so happy.
我们不明白为什么，但最终决定人们喜欢我们，因为我们看起来很快乐。
I had, of course, blocked all of these memories out because they didn't fit into the story I was telling myself.
当然，我已经屏蔽了所有这些记忆，因为它们不适合我告诉自己的故事。
And I did not want them back.
我不想让他们回来。
It had been good to forget.
忘记是件好事。
And the difference between me and people with HSAM is that I have the choice to stop reading the diary, to just walk away.
我和患有 HSAM 的人之间的区别在于，我可以选择停止阅读日记，直接走开。
Jill doesn't have that choice.
吉尔没有这个选择。
It didn't paralyze me until my husband died.
直到我丈夫去世，它才让我瘫痪。
Like, his death has really, like, paralyzed me.
就像，他的死真的让我瘫痪了。
How is it paralyzing?
怎么会瘫痪呢？
Jill Price Because I will never, ever, ever, ever forget that.
吉尔·普莱斯 因为我永远、永远、永远、永远不会忘记这一点。
Of course, no one forgets their spouse dying.
当然，没有人会忘记自己的配偶去世了。
But for Jill, it's different.
但对于吉尔来说，情况就不一样了。
I am still in March of 2005.
我现在还是2005年3月。
Stephanie Foo When he died?
斯蒂芬妮·福 他什么时候死的？
Yeah.
是的。
Not every minute, but I could really put myself in that week and feel it and--
不是每一分钟，但我真的可以让自己置身于那一周并感受它——
Yeah.
是的。
Now, the feeling that I was not going to survive, I don't feel that way anymore because I have survived, you know?
现在，那种我无法生存的感觉，我不再有这种感觉了，因为我已经活下来了，你知道吗？
But--
但是——
Probably like 10 times a day.
大概一天10次吧。
Even though I get up every day, I feel like I'm still standing in the same place.
尽管我每天都起床，但我感觉我仍然站在同一个地方。
It's like-- it's really being stuck.
就好像——真的被卡住了。
It's being stuck in a moment that you can't-- there's no escaping it.
它被困在一个你无法逃脱的时刻。
Yeah.
是的。
Or remember it the way normal people remember it.
或者像普通人一样记住它。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But it's not, like-- I mean, I don't think that somebody would be sitting here 11 years later still feeling it the way I feel it.
但这并不是——我的意思是，我不认为 11 年后有人坐在这里仍然能感受到我的感受。
See I wish you could understand, and I wish I could understand what it's like to be able to, like, let things fade and-- or not let, just that's the way it is.
瞧，我希望你能理解，我希望我能理解那种感觉，比如，让事情消失——或者不让，事情就是这样。
Jill says it's not like she's only reliving bad memories.
吉尔说她不仅仅是在重温不好的回忆。
She likes to go back to one of her favorite afternoons-- October 19, 1979, in the ninth grade, when she had a bad day at school, and her mom surprised her with homemade soup when she got home.
她喜欢回到她最喜欢的下午之一——1979 年 10 月 19 日，当时她在九年级，当时她在学校度过了糟糕的一天，当她回到家时，她妈妈用自制的汤给她一个惊喜。
But when the bad ones come on, she can't help but get emotional.
但当坏事发生时，她就会情不自禁地情绪激动。
And they come on all the time.
他们一直都在。
If you did not have HSAM, how do you think your life would be different today?
如果您没有 HSAM，您认为您今天的生活会有什么不同？
I think that I would have been able to move forward.
我想我本来能够继续前进。
I think I probably would be married today.
我想我今天可能会结婚。
I don't think I would be so scared.
我想我不会那么害怕。
I would be able to just walk forward instead of constantly looking back.
我可以一直向前走，而不是不断回头。
OK.
好的。
So let's reverse this so that maybe you understand.
所以让我们颠倒过来，这样也许你就明白了。
So your boyfriend-- you guys broke up.
所以你的男朋友——你们分手了。
Yeah.
是的。
Jill Price How long were you, like, upset about it or until the point where you felt like you can move forward without thinking about it all the time or move forward without it, like, ripping your heart out?
吉尔·普莱斯（Jill Price） 你对这件事感到不安有多久了，或者直到你觉得你可以继续前进而无需一直思考它，或者无需它继续前进，就像撕裂你的心一样？
Oh, God.
哦，上帝。
Like, three months?
比如，三个月？
Jill Price [LAUGHTER].
吉尔·普莱斯[笑声]。
I don't have that luxury.
我没有那么奢侈。
And so are you jealous of me?
那你嫉妒我吗？
Jill Price No.
吉尔价格编号
No?
没有？
Jill Price Nuh-uh.
吉尔·普莱斯 嗯嗯。
Because on the flip side of all that, I can't imagine what it's like to not remember my life.
因为另一方面，我无法想象不记得我的生活是什么感觉。
I really can't understand how nobody does, even though it has tormented me.
我真的无法理解别人是怎么做的，尽管这让我很痛苦。
It's just, everything was just-- is so important to me that I just-- I hold onto it so tight that I wouldn't want to not be able to do that.
只是，一切对我来说都如此重要，以至于我紧紧抓住它，以至于我不想做不到。
I'm not jealous of her, either.
我也不嫉妒她。
Ever since talking to these people with HSAM, for the first time in my life, I actually feel just fine about forgetting.
自从与 HSAM 的这些人交谈以来，这是我一生中第一次，我实际上对遗忘感觉很好。
I know that sounds like it's the end of the radio story and this is just what you say, but, like, I cannot stress how sincere I am about this-- totally fine about forgetting.
我知道这听起来像是广播故事的结尾，这正是你所说的，但是，就像，我无法强调我对此有多么真诚——完全可以忘记。
Stephanie Foo is one of the producers of our program.
Stephanie Foo 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Well, our program was produced today by Sean Cole, Zoe Chace, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Joel Lovell, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Lyra Smith, Alissa Shipp, Matt Tierney, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Sean Cole、Zoe Chace、Neil Drumming、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Joel Lovell、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Lyra Smith、Alissa Shipp、Matt Tierney 和 Nancy Updike 制作。
Help from Julie Snyder and Elna Baker.
朱莉·斯奈德和埃尔娜·贝克的帮助。
Support staff for our show-- Elise Bergerson, Emily Condon, Kimberly Henderson, and Seth Lind.
我们节目的支持人员 - Elise Bergerson、Emily Condon、Kimberly Henderson 和 Seth Lind。
Research help from Christopher Swetala and Michelle Harris.
Christopher Swetala 和 Michelle Harris 提供了研究帮助。
Music help today from Damian Graef, from Rob Geddis.
今天的音乐由达米安·格雷夫 (Damian Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, I always tell him, every day is a bowl of cherries.
你知道，我总是告诉他，每天都是一碗樱桃。
And he always responds--
而他总是这样回应——
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。