584: For Your Reconsideration - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #584 | April 8, 2016 584: For Your Reconsideration Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 584 集 | 2016 年 4 月 8 日 584：供您重新考虑 注意：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass You may remember this story that we did about a year ago, about canvassers going door to door and talking to voters for 20 minutes.
序言 Ira Glass 你可能还记得我们大约一年前做过的这个故事，关于游说者挨家挨户与选民交谈 20 分钟的故事。
And in just 20 minutes, the canvassers got some voters to change their minds, to flip positions on big, hot button issues.
在短短 20 分钟内，游说者就让一些选民改变了主意，在重大热点问题上改变了立场。
Gay marriage.
同性婚姻。
Abortion.
流产。
Which, of course, is amazing, right?
这当然是令人惊奇的，对吧？
That is not something that seems like it's even possible.
这似乎根本不可能。
There was a study in a well-known, peer reviewed journal-- Science magazine-- proving how remarkably effective these people were.
著名的同行评审期刊《科学》杂志上发表了一项研究，证明这些人的效率是多么的高。
They invented a whole new way to sway voter opinion.
他们发明了一种全新的方式来影响选民的意见。
It seemed like a game changer, a whole new tool for politics, for liberals or conservatives to use.
它似乎改变了游戏规则，是一个全新的政治工具，可供自由派或保守派使用。
And then a month after our radio story-- maybe you saw this in the news-- there was overwhelming evidence that one of the researchers, a grad student named Michael LaCour had fabricated all the data.
在我们的广播故事发生一个月后——也许你在新闻中看到了这一点——有压倒性的证据表明，其中一位研究人员、一位名叫迈克尔·拉库尔的研究生捏造了所有数据。
Science magazine retracted the article.
《科学》杂志撤回了这篇文章。
But the team that invented this canvassing technique, they were not the ones that did the research study.
但发明这种拉票技术的团队并不是进行这项研究的团队。
That was a separate thing.
那是另一件事。
And they were just as shocked as anybody.
他们和其他人一样感到震惊。
Maybe more shocked.
也许更震惊。
The week the news broke, one of the canvass organizers, Steve DeLine, told me they'd spent months meticulously going door to door and keeping perfect records of everything they were doing for this researcher.
消息传出的那一周，拉票组织者之一史蒂夫·德莱恩 (Steve DeLine) 告诉我，他们花了几个月的时间，一丝不苟地挨家挨户，完美记录了他们为这位研究人员所做的一切。
To find out that LaCour had just made up his part of the data--
发现拉库尔刚刚编造了他的那部分数据——
It's unfathomable to me, having you know, made sure that we were dotting every I and crossing every T.
这对我来说是深不可测的，因为你知道，我们确保我们点缀了每一个“I”，跨越了每一个“T”。
And you know, jumping through every hoop that he asked of us.
你知道，我们要克服他对我们提出的每一个要求。
It's just-- just can't really explain it.
这只是——只是无法真正解释它。
I'm at a loss.
我不知所措。
Ira Glass Then in August, three months after the retraction, four months after our story aired--
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 然后在八月，即撤稿三个月后，也就是我们的故事播出四个月后——
Nice to meet you.
很高兴认识你。
Ira Glass Nice to meet you guys in person.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）很高兴亲自见到你们。
We got a visitor to our office from two of the guys who'd developed this canvassing technique, that guy Steve and his coworker Dave Fleischer.
我们的办公室迎来了两位开发这种拉票技术的人，即史蒂夫和他的同事戴夫·弗莱舍（Dave Fleischer）。
They happened to be in town from California.
他们碰巧从加利福尼亚来到城里。
And they had news.
他们有消息。
A brand new study with new researchers was looking into their work.
一项由新研究人员参与的全新研究正在调查他们的工作。
Results were coming in.
结果即将出来。
Here's Dave.
这是戴夫。
We're not anticipating going public with these results until January at the earliest, and maybe not till June.
我们预计最早要到一月份才会公开这些结果，也许要到六月份。
What these researchers really wanted to do was publish their results in Science magazine, you know, the place that published the original, discredited study.
这些研究人员真正想做的是在《科学》杂志上发表他们的研究结果，你知道，这是发表原始的、不可信的研究的地方。
In fact, one of the researchers was laying the groundwork for that.
事实上，一位研究人员正在为此奠定基础。
So he actually called up Marcia McNutt, who's the editor of Science.
所以他实际上打电话给《科学》杂志的编辑玛西娅·麦克纳特。
And they didn't immediately reject it out of hand.
他们并没有立即拒绝。
She just said, "You know, the bar's going to be very high." [LAUGHS] Well, no [BEEP] fooling.
她只是说，“你知道，门槛会很高。” [笑]好吧，不[哔]愚弄。
Well, apparently Science magazine liked what the new researchers did.
嗯，显然《科学》杂志喜欢新研究人员的工作。
This week they published the new study about these canvassers.
本周他们发表了关于这些游说者的新研究。
This one's not fake.
这个不是假的。
We know now, for real, whether those canvassers are, in fact, convincing anyone of anything when they go door to door.
我们现在确实知道，这些游说者挨家挨户拜访时是否真的说服了任何人。
And if anything, what the canvassers are achieving and the way that they're achieving it is even more interesting than the fake study said.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是游说者所取得的成就以及他们实现这一目标的方式比虚假研究所说的更有趣。
From WBEZ Chicago and This American Life, I'm Ira Glass.
来自《WBEZ 芝加哥》和《This American Life》，我是 Ira Glass。
Today on our program, "For Your Reconsideration." We have this story and two other stories where people go back and revisit evidence from the past.
今天我们的节目“供您重新考虑”。我们有这个故事和另外两个故事，人们可以回顾过去并重新审视过去的证据。
And just to start this off, in case you didn't hear our first story about those canvassers a year ago, here's what they were.
首先，如果您没有听说过我们一年前关于这些拉票员的第一个故事，那么他们就是这样。
If you heard that show, this will just be a quick reminder.
如果您听过该节目，这只是一个快速提醒。
Hi.
你好。
We're talking to registered voters in your neighborhood today about their views on abortion.
我们今天正在与您附近的登记选民讨论他们对堕胎的看法。
This is one of the canvassers.
这是其中一位书报员。
She's young, with tattoos and a halter top.
她很年轻，有纹身，穿着吊带衫。
It's a warm Los Angeles day, and the voter's on the other side of a screen door.
这是洛杉矶温暖的一天，选民就在纱门的另一边。
She's older, heavyset, wire rimmed glasses.
她年纪大了，身材魁梧，戴着金属丝框眼镜。
She's a nurse.
她是一名护士。
And OK, just to be clear, what you're about to hear is a real canvasser with a real voter.
好吧，需要澄清的是，你将要听到的是一个真正的游说者和一个真正的选民。
This is not part of the discredited study.
这不是不可信研究的一部分。
This is from a video of one of the regular canvasses these guys Dave and Steve organized.
这是戴夫和史蒂夫组织的一次定期游说的视频。
The canvasser begins by asking this voter what she believes about abortion on a scale from zero to 10.
游说者首先询问这位选民她对堕胎的看法，范围从 0 到 10。
Zero means you think women should have no access to abortion.
零意味着您认为女性不应该堕胎。
10 means women should have full access to abortion.
10意味着女性应该有充分的堕胎机会。
The voter says zero.
选民说零。
No access.
无法访问。
No abortions for anybody.
任何人都不能堕胎。
She's Catholic, from Mexico.
她是天主教徒，来自墨西哥。
And they start talking about how hard it can be to discuss abortion.
他们开始谈论讨论堕胎是多么困难。
Even with family.
即使和家人在一起。
How did that feel for you to talk to your daughters?
和你的女儿们谈话感觉如何？
It's not easy.
这并不容易。
It's not easy, because in my country they have taboos, a lot of taboos.
这并不容易，因为在我的国家他们有禁忌，很多禁忌。
And my mother is one of the person never talking about sexual relations or conceptions.
我的母亲是从不谈论性关系或受孕的人之一。
Yeah.
是的。
Female Voter That's why I try to be very open with my daughters.
女性选民 这就是为什么我尝试对我的女儿们非常开放。
Notice that this conversation's just begun and already she's talking about her daughters and her mom.
请注意，这次谈话才刚刚开始，她已经在谈论她的女儿和她的妈妈了。
That's no accident.
这并非偶然。
This whole technique is built around having a very personal conversation, a very real conversation about the voter's experiences.
整个技术是建立在进行非常个人化的对话、关于选民经历的非常真实的对话的基础上的。
To make that happen, this canvasser does something that a lot of the canvassers do-- she talks about her own experiences.
为了实现这一目标，这位文字布道者做了很多文字布道者都会做的事情——她谈论自己的经历。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Canvasser And my mother went through the same thing.
Canvasser 我的母亲也经历过同样的事情。
Like, it's not something that you talk about.
就像，这不是你谈论的事情。
In my family, it's the same.
在我的家里，也是一样的。
Canvasser When I got my period, I was 12 years old.
Canvasser 当我来月经的时候，我才 12 岁。
The voter tells her that when she was 11 and got her period, nobody explained what was happening.
选民告诉她，当她 11 岁来月经时，没有人解释发生了什么。
She thought she was dying.
她以为她快死了。
Oh!
哦！
[LAUGHS] Ira Glass And when she was six, her mom miscarried a baby.
[笑] Ira Glass 当她六岁时，她妈妈流产了一个孩子。
But nobody explained what was going on to her.
但没有人向她解释发生了什么事。
And so she's tried to be different with her daughters and talk to them.
因此，她尝试以不同的方式对待女儿们，并与她们交谈。
That's why she became a nurse, she says, to help women.
她说，这就是她成为一名护士的原因，以帮助女性。
So these two strangers are swapping stories and really talking from the heart.
所以这两个陌生人正在交换故事，而且是发自内心的交谈。
And 15 minutes into this 22-minute conversation, the canvasser circles back to the subject at hand in a very pointed way.
这场 22 分钟的谈话进行到 15 分钟后，文字推销员以非常尖锐的方式回到了当前的主题。
In November this past year.
去年11月份。
Female Voter Oh, I'm so sorry.
女选民哦，非常抱歉。
Mhm.
嗯。
Canvasser Because that's what felt right for me.
Canvasser 因为这对我来说是正确的。
But I was alone.
但我独自一人。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Canvasser And it wasn't-- it was because I don't know how to talk about it with people.
Canvasser：这不是——而是因为我不知道如何与人谈论这件事。
Like, my family, my mother loves me.
就像我的家人、我的妈妈爱我一样。
And so does my papa and my sister.
我的爸爸和姐姐也是如此。
I know, but it's hard.
我知道，但这很难。
And you carry it for the rest of your life.
你将终生携带它。
It's your decision--
这是你的决定——
Yeah.
是的。
Female Voter But you carry it for the rest of your life.
女选民 但你会终生携带它。
If you are-- one of the things that I struggled with with telling my family is this idea that my family's going to love me less.
如果你是——我在告诉我的家人时遇到的困难之一就是我的家人会更少地爱我。
No. Never.
不，从来没有。
Canvasser Would you ever love your daughters less?
文告员 你会少爱你的女儿吗？
No. Never.
不，从来没有。
Ira Glass It's a moment that's simultaneously intimate and manipulative and honest all at once.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 这是一个既亲密又充满操纵性和诚实的时刻。
And it works.
它有效。
After this, the canvasser asks the voter again to rate on a scale of zero to 10 where she stands on access to abortion.
此后，游说者再次要求选民从 0 到 10 的范围内对她对堕胎的立场进行评分。
Remember, she was a zero before.
请记住，她以前是零。
We have that same zero to 10 scale where zero means no access and 10 means full access.
我们有相同的从 0 到 10 的等级，其中 0 表示没有访问权限，10 表示完全访问权限。
Mhm.
嗯。
Ira Glass She's been standing at the door just 18 minutes.
Ira Glass：她在门口站了 18 分钟。
So again, OK, that's real.
再说一遍，好吧，这是真的。
That is not part of the fraudulent study.
这不属于欺诈性研究的一部分。
The team that invented this technique of going door to door-- including Dave Fleischer and Steve Deline, the two guys who visited our office at the beginning of this story-- they work at the Los Angeles LGBT Center, which is a big, multimillion-dollar nonprofit, the biggest LGBT organization in the world.
发明这种挨家挨户技术的团队——包括戴夫·弗莱舍（Dave Fleischer）和史蒂夫·德利恩（Steve Deline），这两个人在故事开始时访问了我们的办公室——他们在洛杉矶 LGBT 中心工作，这是一个耗资数百万美元的大型非营利组织，也是世界上最大的 LGBT 组织。
They started doing these canvasses in 2009.
他们从 2009 年开始进行这些游说活动。
They were hoping to change voters' minds to support gay marriage.
他们希望改变选民的想法，支持同性婚姻。
This was in the wake of Proposition 8, which rejected gay marriage in California.
这是继第 8 号提案之后，该提案拒绝了加州的同性婚姻。
And they discovered through trial and error that the trick to this whole thing was they don't try to reason with people about rights and equality and big principles like that.
他们通过反复试验发现，整件事的诀窍在于他们不试图就权利、平等和诸如此类的重大原则与人们进行推理。
Canvass organizer Steve Deline says if you're talking at a kind of rational, sort of intellectual level about things, you're gonna fail.
游说活动组织者史蒂夫·德利恩（Steve Deline）表示，如果你以一种理性的、理智的水平来谈论事物，你就会失败。
That's not where people make their decisions about issues like this.
人们不会就此类问题做出决定。
People make their decisions about how they're going to vote on this at a gut level and at a visceral level and an emotional level.
人们在本能层面、本能层面和情感层面上做出如何投票的决定。
This is what they learned-- to stop telling people things.
这就是他们学到的——停止告诉别人事情。
The most important thing the canvasser should do is listen.
文字布道者应该做的最重要的事情就是倾听。
I think the big revelation was that our job was actually to go and give them the chance to talk about their own life, and realize that you know, maybe that led them to conclusions that were a little different than they'd thought.
我认为最大的启示是，我们的工作实际上是去给他们机会谈论自己的生活，并意识到你知道，也许这导致他们得出的结论与他们想象的有些不同。
So they're out doing this, trying their canvasses.
所以他们出去这样做，尝试拉票。
And it took them less than a year to start to get decent results like you heard with that nurse.
他们花了不到一年的时间就开始取得不错的结果，就像你从那位护士那里听到的那样。
A small but noticeable number of people at the door told them that their minds had been changed.
门口有一小部分但引人注目的人告诉他们，他们的想法已经改变了。
But of course, the only way to tell for sure if their minds changed and stayed changed was to have outsiders-- scientists-- do a proper case control study.
但当然，确定他们的想法是否改变并保持改变的唯一方法是让局外人——科学家——进行适当的病例对照研究。
And that's why the canvassers invited in two political scientists to do the original study that was published in Science magazine.
这就是为什么游说者邀请了两位政治科学家来做最初的研究，该研究发表在《科学》杂志上。
That grad student from UCLA-- Michael LaCour-- did the actual research.
加州大学洛杉矶分校的研究生迈克尔·拉库尔做了实际的研究。
But the study design and results were overseen by a big deal political scientist from Columbia University named Donald Green, who's kind of legendary in that world for transforming how people do field experiments.
但这项研究的设计和结果是由哥伦比亚大学一位名叫唐纳德·格林（Donald Green）的重要政治学家监督的，他在改变人们进行现场实验的方式方面堪称世界传奇。
And Green says that before they started, he expected the results were going to show--
格林说，在他们开始之前，他预计结果会显示——
Donald Green Short-term effects.
唐纳德·格林 短期影响。
I thought that those effects would subside in a few days' time.
我以为这些影响会在几天内消退。
He thought that 'cause pretty much that's what always happens.
他这么想，因为这种事经常发生。
People change their minds and then the effect wears off.
人们改变主意，然后效果就会消失。
Or much more common, they don't change their minds at all.
或者更常见的是，他们根本不会改变主意。
There's a hefty body of research documenting something called the backfire effect, which happens with most of us.
有大量研究记录了我们大多数人都会遇到的“逆火效应”。
When we're confronted with evidence disproving something that we personally believe, most of us generally just dig in, and we believe it more.
当我们面对反驳我们个人所相信的事情的证据时，我们大多数人通常只是深入挖掘，并且我们更加相信它。
This is a phenomenon, by the way, that's familiar to anybody who's ever been to a Thanksgiving dinner during an election year and tried to argue with some favorite uncle's wrongheaded political opinions.
顺便说一句，这种现象对于任何在选举年参加过感恩节晚餐并试图与某些最喜欢的叔叔的错误政治观点争论的人来说都很熟悉。
Never works, right?
从来不工作，对吧？
Facts mean nothing.
事实没有任何意义。
And by the way, Uncle Lenny, I am not talking about you.
顺便说一句，莱尼叔叔，我不是在说你。
But this is what was so revolutionary about the data that this grad student seemed to be gathering about these canvassers.
但这就是这位研究生似乎收集的关于这些游说者的数据的革命性之处。
He said he did online surveys with the voters who got visited by the canvassers and they showed that their minds changed and stayed changed for six months, nine months, a year after the canvasser knocked at the door.
他说，他对游说者拜访过的选民进行了在线调查，结果显示，在游说者敲门后的六个月、九个月、一年内，他们的想法发生了变化，而且一直保持着变化。
Green told me that he and his colleagues had read through over 900 papers, never seen anything like this result, to change people's opinions and have it last like this.
格林告诉我，他和他的同事们读了900多篇论文，从来没有见过这样的结果，能够改变人们的观点，并让它持续下去。
Though interestingly, when LaCour first showed his data to Professor Green, Green thought, this data is so perfect, these results might be real.
不过有趣的是，当拉库尔第一次向格林教授展示他的数据时，格林认为，这个数据是如此完美，这些结果可能是真实的。
But OK, best to be sure.
但好吧，最好确定一下。
And he told LaCour to do the entire study-- canvasses, surveys, everything-- a second time.
他告诉拉库尔第二次进行整个研究——游说、调查，一切。
Which LaCour did.
拉库尔就是这么做的。
Same result.
相同的结果。
Now, of course, later, Green's suspicions would be confirmed in spades.
当然，现在，格林的怀疑将会得到证实。
All that data would be shown to be fraudulent.
所有这些数据都将被证明是欺诈性的。
But here's what LaCour said he found in the original study published in Science .
但这是拉库尔所说的他在《科学》杂志上发表的原始研究中发现的内容。
OK, so what I'm about to say is from the discredited results of a retracted study.
好吧，我要说的是一项被撤回的研究的不可信结果。
This study was about gay marriage.
这项研究是关于同性婚姻的。
It was about convincing people to support gay marriage.
这是为了说服人们支持同性婚姻。
And the study claimed that a year after the canvassers visited voters' homes, the number of voters supporting gay marriage had jumped 15%.
研究称，在游说者拜访选民家一年后，支持同性婚姻的选民人数猛增了 15%。
15%.
15%。
But-- and this was key-- according to the study, the 15% increase only happened if the canvasser at the door had been gay and admitted being gay to the voter.
但是——这是关键——根据这项研究，只有门口的拉票员是同性恋并向选民承认自己是同性恋的情况下，15% 的增长才会发生。
People who talked to other canvassers only rose 3%, which is about as much as the nation as a whole changed on the issue of gay marriage that year.
与其他游说者交谈的人数只增加了 3%，这大约相当于当年全国在同性婚姻问题上的整体变化。
It was a similar effect with abortion, according LaCour.
拉库尔表示，堕胎也有类似的效果。
He said the number of people who became pro-choice after the canvass rose 5%.
他说，游说后支持堕胎的人数增加了 5%。
And again, the effect only lasted if the canvasser at the door revealed that she had had an abortion.
再说一遍，只有当门口的游说者透露她曾堕胎时，这种效果才会持续。
It was talking to somebody affected by the issue that seemed to be changing people's minds.
与受该问题影响的人交谈似乎正在改变人们的想法。
I actually interviewed Michael LaCour a year ago for the story that I did for our show about all this.
事实上，我一年前采访了迈克尔·拉库尔，因为我为我们的节目制作了有关这一切的故事。
I have to say, it's strange listening to that interview today, knowing what happened just a few weeks after we talked, that his data would be shown to be fraudulent.
我不得不说，今天听那次采访很奇怪，知道我们谈话几周后发生的事情，他的数据将被证明是欺诈的。
'Cause when I talked to him, he really talked like somebody doing a real study with real surveys.
因为当我和他交谈时，他说话的语气就像是在进行真正的调查研究。
Like for instance, I asked him how attitudes towards abortion changed over time among the voters that he was studying.
例如，我问他所研究的选民对堕胎的态度如何随着时间的推移而变化。
So that's still ongoing.
所以这仍在继续。
Because I'm tracking longitudinally these individuals over a course.
因为我在一个课程中纵向跟踪这些人。
I don't want to give out a hard number, but it stays relatively flat.
我不想给出一个确切的数字，但它保持相对平稳。
And I think it levels off around five percentage points.
我认为它稳定在五个百分点左右。
That's around 200 days later.
那是大约200天后的事了。
He offered conclusions from his data.
他根据自己的数据得出了结论。
Like this one.
就像这个。
So one of the things is people change their-- when they had contact with a gay person discussing gay equality-- they changed their minds, not just about the policy issue about same sex marriage.
因此，其中一件事是，当人们与同性恋者接触讨论同性恋平等时，他们改变了主意，而不仅仅是关于同性婚姻的政策问题。
They also changed their minds about gay people, gays and lesbians as a group.
他们也改变了对同性恋者、男女同性恋群体的看法。
Nice if that were true.
如果这是真的就好了。
If there were data supporting it.
如果有数据支持的话。
Or there was this finding, which is so particular and specific that again, if there is no data supporting this, it's just a very idiosyncratic thing to decide to say is true.
或者有一个发现，它是如此特殊和具体，以至于如果没有数据支持这一点，那么决定说它是真的就是一件非常特殊的事情。
LaCour said that he graded each gay canvasser on how stereotypically gay they appeared.
拉库尔说，他根据每位同性恋游说者的刻板印象对他们进行评分。
And--
还有——
The gay canvassers who are perceived as straight had the largest effects.
被视为异性恋的同性恋游说者的影响最大。
That is, they were able to convince the most voters to support gay marriage.
也就是说，他们能够说服大多数选民支持同性婚姻。
So this suggests that voters may ordinarily have an unflattering mental image of a stereotypical gay person.
因此，这表明选民通常可能对刻板的同性恋者有一种不讨人喜欢的印象。
And the discrepancy between the stereotype and the person standing on the doorstep creates a space for attitude change.
刻板印象与站在门口的人之间的差异为态度改变创造了空间。
Right.
正确的。
I see.
我懂了。
Michael Lacour Especially when the canvassers are building empathy through respectful two-way conversation.
迈克尔·拉库尔（Michael Lacour）：尤其是当游说者通过相互尊重的双向对话建立同理心时。
This vision of the world is such a hopeful vision of how the world might work.
这种世界愿景是对世界如何运作的充满希望的愿景。
The world LaCour fabricated is one where intolerant people hold inaccurate stereotypes in their heads and all it takes is an empathetic conversation, one sincere talk, 20 minutes long, with somebody from the stereotyped group and the scales fall from their eyes.
拉库尔虚构的世界是这样一个世界：不宽容的人们在头脑中持有不准确的刻板印象，所需要的只是与来自刻板印象群体的人进行一场共情的对话，一场长达 20 分钟的真诚谈话，然后他们的天平就会从他们的眼睛里掉下来。
They realize they were wrong all along.
他们意识到自己一直以来都错了。
I like that world.
我喜欢那个世界。
I wish I lived in that world.
我希望我生活在那个世界里。
Maybe we do live in that world for all we know.
就我们所知，也许我们确实生活在那个世界里。
But if we do, there's no data proving it.
但即使我们这样做，也没有数据证明这一点。
Hey, Ira.
嘿，艾拉。
Ira Glass Last May, a month after we ran our story about LaCour's study, six months after he published that study in Science magazine, I called his co-author, Columbia professor Donald Green.
Ira Glass 去年五月，也就是我们报道拉库尔研究的一个月后，也就是他在《科学》杂志上发表该研究的六个月后，我给他的合著者、哥伦比亚大学教授唐纳德·格林打了电话。
Green had just reconsidered what was going on in the data LaCour had collected and had asked Science to retract their article, which the magazine did.
格林刚刚重新考虑了拉库尔收集的数据中发生的情况，并要求《科学》杂志撤回他们的文章，该杂志照做了。
He seemed understandably sobered and sad.
他看起来很清醒，也很悲伤，这是可以理解的。
It was such a waste.
这太浪费了。
Not just of my time, obviously, but no, the Center and the canvassers' time.
显然，不仅仅是我的时代，还有中心和游说者的时代。
The way the fraud was discovered was actually a little detective story of its own.
欺诈案被发现的方式实际上本身就是一个小侦探故事。
A detective story that began kind of exactly the way they tell you in school that the scientific method is supposed to work.
一个侦探故事的开始方式与他们在学校告诉你科学方法应该起作用的方式完全相同。
Two young researchers-- David Broockman and Joshua Kalla, both in their 20s-- tried to replicate what LaCour did.
两位年轻的研究人员——大卫·布鲁克曼和约书亚·卡拉，都是 20 多岁——试图复制拉库尔的做法。
The team from the Los Angeles LGBT Center and a Miami LGBT group was organizing a new canvass operation in Miami.
来自洛杉矶 LGBT 中心和迈阿密 LGBT 团体的团队正在迈阿密组织一次新的游说活动。
Broockman and Kalla would study that.
布鲁克曼和卡拉会研究这个。
Broockman was already suspicious of LaCour's data.
布鲁克曼已经对拉库尔的数据产生了怀疑。
It seemed too perfect.
看起来太完美了。
Then they started their research and they noticed something funny.
然后他们开始研究，发现了一些有趣的事情。
The way this experiment works, like I said, the researchers do online surveys of the voters' opinions before and after the canvassers come to their doors and talk to them.
正如我所说，这个实验的运作方式是，研究人员在拉票员上门与选民交谈之前和之后对选民的意见进行在线调查。
And the researchers pay the voters to fill out those online surveys to motivate them to do the surveys.
研究人员付钱给选民填写这些在线调查，以激励他们进行调查。
And tons of voters filled out LaCour's surveys, but not Broockman and Kalla's.
大量选民填写了拉库尔的调查，但没有填写布鲁克曼和卡拉的调查。
This made no sense at all.
这完全没有意义。
And they didn't know what to do.
他们不知道该怎么办。
If people didn't fill out their surveys, they'd have no study.
如果人们不填写调查，他们就没有研究。
They started to panic.
他们开始恐慌。
So they reached out to the survey company that LaCour said he used to find out exactly how LaCour got so many people to fill in their surveys.
因此，他们联系了拉库尔所说的他曾经使用过的调查公司，以了解拉库尔究竟是如何让这么多人填写调查的。
The company informed them that LaCour was not one of their clients, that the employee LaCour said he worked with did not exist, and in fact, this company did not have the capability to do the things LaCour said they did for him.
该公司告诉他们，拉库尔不是他们的客户之一，拉库尔所说的与他共事的员工并不存在，事实上，这家公司没有能力做拉库尔所说的他们为他做的事情。
The hundreds of thousands of dollars that was supposedly paid out to survey responders, which LaCour said came from funders like the Ford Foundation-- who LaCour thanked in his study-- never was actually granted to LaCour.
拉库尔表示，据称支付给调查回复者的数十万美元来自福特基金会等资助者——拉库尔在他的研究中感谢了福特基金会——但实际上从未向拉库尔发放过。
Given all that, it was hard to see how any of the data could be real.
考虑到这一切，很难看出这些数据怎么可能是真实的。
But LaCour held firm.
但拉库尔态度坚定。
Said the data was real.
说数据是真实的。
He even wrote a paper defending it.
他甚至写了一篇论文为其辩护。
But he said that he could not show the data to anybody because he had destroyed all the original surveys to protect the privacy of the respondents.
但他表示，他不能向任何人展示这些数据，因为他已经销毁了所有原始调查，以保护受访者的隐私。
I'm not sure anybody believed him.
我不确定是否有人相信他。
He'd been headed for a prestigious job at Princeton University after finishing his doctoral thesis.
完成博士论文后，他正前往普林斯顿大学寻找一份享有声望的工作。
Now that job evaporated.
现在那份工作消失了。
His collaborator Don Green says the odd thing was the fakery went way beyond what seemed to be necessary.
他的合作者唐·格林说，奇怪的是，这种造假行为远远超出了看似必要的范围。
And this was, I think, the thing that I just want to convey somehow, is that there was an incredible mountain of fabrication.
我想，我只是想以某种方式传达这一点，那就是存在着令人难以置信的捏造之山。
It was the most baroque and ornate ornamentation.
这是最巴洛克式、最华丽的装饰。
There were stories.
有故事。
There were anecdotes.
有一些轶事。
My Dropbox is filled with graphs and charts.
我的 Dropbox 充满了图表。
What do you mean there's stories and anecdotes?
你说有故事和轶事是什么意思？
I thought the only thing that was fabricated was the online surveys?
我以为唯一捏造的就是网上调查？
Right.
正确的。
But there would be stories out of the survey.
但调查中肯定会有一些故事。
So he would say things like, "well did you know that some of the people in the survey came out?"
所以他会说，“你知道调查中的一些人出来了吗？”
As if, in later surveys, their attitudes about homosexuality had changed enough that they were comfortable finally admitting to the surveyors that they were gay.
似乎在后来的调查中，他们对同性恋的态度已经发生了足够的变化，以至于他们最终可以轻松地向调查人员承认自己是同性恋。
Except of course, the surveys didn't seem to exist.
当然，这些调查似乎并不存在。
It's layer after layer of embellishment that the sheer magnitude of it makes it very hard to entertain the possibility that it's all made up.
这是一层又一层的修饰，其规模之大让人很难相信这一切都是编造出来的。
The day after the truth came to light, one of the guys who created the canvasses, Dave Fleischer, told me that that's what he found himself trying to get his head around, the layers of embellishment.
真相大白后的第二天，这些画布的创作者之一戴夫·弗莱舍 (Dave Fleischer) 告诉我，这就是他发现自己试图理解的东西，即层层装饰。
He told me this story about working with Michael LaCour.
他给我讲述了与迈克尔·拉库尔合作的故事。
At our very first canvass where Mike was measuring us, right, we were running the canvass training, we're sending people out canvassing, we're going out canvassing.
在我们第一次拉票时，迈克正在测量我们，对吧，我们正在进行拉票训练，我们派人出去拉票，我们出去拉票。
And Mike has a laptop set up.
迈克准备了一台笔记本电脑。
And as voters that we've talked to then fill out their first post-canvassing survey--
作为我们交谈过的选民，然后填写他们的第一份拉票后调查——
In other words, after real life canvassers came to their doors, Michael LaCour is supposedly having these voters fill out online surveys.
换句话说，在现实生活中的游说者上门后，迈克尔·拉库尔据称让这些选民填写在线调查。
And he's telling the canvassers, those surveys--
他告诉游说者，那些调查——
Some of them are starting to trickle in.
其中一些已经开始慢慢涌入。
And Mike's got his laptop set up with him gazing intently at it.
迈克已经把笔记本电脑摆好了，他全神贯注地盯着它。
And his group of about a half dozen research assistants clustered around him gazing at it raptly, the way you would at election results on a presidential election night.
他的团队由大约六名研究助理组成，他们聚集在他周围，全神贯注地凝视着它，就像总统选举之夜的选举结果一样。
And after we finished the canvass de-brief and the volunteers leave, Mike invites us-- the team of staff organizers-- to come over and also glimpse the findings that are starting to emerge.
在我们完成游说汇报并且志愿者离开后，迈克邀请我们——工作人员组织者团队——过来看看开始出现的调查结果。
And I really have thought back on this moment obviously, in the last 24 hours.
在过去的 24 小时里，我确实回想起了这一刻。
Because it really looked like, oh my god, the results are coming in.
因为看起来真的是，天啊，结果即将出来了。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
And so what was on his screen?
那么他的屏幕上显示了什么？
Did you see his screen?
你看到他的屏幕了吗？
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
It was like a-- heck, it's like data points coming in.
这就像——哎呀，就像数据点进来了。
And he would go back and forth between these two-- it's probably an old fashioned term from when I studied sociology-- but scattergrams.
他会在这两者之间来回走动——这可能是我学习社会学时的一个老式术语——但散点图。
These are like charts.
这些就像图表。
Dave Fleischer Yes.
戴夫·弗莱舍 是的。
There's a graphic depiction.
有图解说明。
And so he's going back and forth.
所以他就这样来回走动。
And are those charts changing over the course of the time you look at them?
这些图表在您查看的过程中是否发生变化？
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
It would have been a whole lot easier just to have measured our work.
仅仅衡量我们的工作就会容易得多。
Ira Glass How do you explain this?
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）对此有何解释？
Like, you worked with him for many, many hours.
就像，你和他一起工作了很多很多个小时。
How are you putting this together in your head?
你是如何将这些整合到你的脑海中的？
Two years, Ira.
两年了，艾拉。
And yeah, it is not really understandable to me.
是的，我真的无法理解。
Because you spoke, I believe, with Mike on the phone.
因为我相信你和迈克通了电话。
Yeah.
是的。
Dave Fleischer And he's a smart guy.
戴夫·弗莱舍（Dave Fleischer） 他是个聪明人。
He, I think, is genuinely a caring guy.
我想，他确实是一个有爱心的人。
He genuinely loves statistics.
他真的很喜欢统计。
But there is a piece of this that is incomprehensible when somebody who has so much makes such a grievous choice.
但当一个拥有如此多财富的人做出如此痛苦的选择时，有一点是令人难以理解的。
Canvass organizers say staff and 73 volunteers worked for more than 3,600 hours, including knocking on doors and talking to over 400 voters for the fake study.
游说活动组织者表示，工作人员和 73 名志愿者工作了 3,600 多个小时，其中包括挨家挨户拜访并与 400 多名选民交谈，以进行这项虚假研究。
Since all this went down last year, Michael LaCour still has not admitted to fabricating data in public or in private with the colleagues of his that I've spoken to.
自从去年这一切发生以来，迈克尔·拉库尔仍然没有承认在公开场合或私下与我交谈过的他的同事们伪造了数据。
He declined my invitation to come on the radio this week and talk about this.
他拒绝了我本周上广播电台谈论此事的邀请。
He declined to say whether the data was real or fake.
他拒绝透露这些数据是真是假。
The one chink in this position came last month, when out of the blue he texted Dave Fleischer.
这个职位的一个缺陷出现在上个月，当时他突然给戴夫·弗莱舍（Dave Fleischer）发了短信。
"Hi Dave.
“嗨戴夫。
If you're willing, I'd like to meet with you face to face.
如果你愿意的话，我想和你面对面交流。
To apologize." Dave told me he hasn't been able to bring himself to respond just yet.
来道歉。”戴夫告诉我，他还无法做出回应。
He's not ready.
他还没准备好。
Yeah, so what we've done so far is the Miami work.
是的，到目前为止我们所做的是迈阿密工作。
I think that's what we're ready to show you some of the early sneak peek into.
我想这就是我们准备向您展示一些早期先睹为快的内容。
I think you're the first person outside of the study--
我想你是第一个走出研究室的人——
That's David Broockman, one of the guys who discovered the fraud in the original study, and the co-author of the new study with real surveys and real data that was published this week in Science magazine.
这就是大卫·布鲁克曼（David Broockman），他是最初研究中发现欺诈行为的人之一，也是本周在《科学》杂志上发表的这项包含真实调查和真实数据的新研究的合著者。
This recording has him talking to me last August, three months after Science retracted the original study.
这段录音记录了他去年八月与我交谈的内容，即《科学》杂志撤回最初研究的三个月后。
It was Broockman and his research partner remember, who discovered LaCour's fraud when they tried to replicate his methods in Miami.
布鲁克曼和他的研究伙伴记得，当他们试图在迈阿密复制拉库尔的方法时，他们发现了拉库尔的欺诈行为。
Now the Miami data was in, the first part of it anyway.
现在迈阿密的数据已经出来了，无论如何都是第一部分。
The canvassers in Miami went door to door trying to change voters' attitudes about transgendered people.
迈阿密的游说者挨家挨户地试图改变选民对变性人的态度。
Miami-Dade County passed an ordinance in 2014 banning discrimination against transgender people.
迈阿密戴德县于 2014 年通过了一项法令，禁止歧视跨性别者。
And these canvassers were trying to convince voters that that was a good idea, and to support it if a ballot measure someday tried to strike it down.
这些游说者试图让选民相信这是一个好主意，并在有一天投票措施试图推翻它时支持它。
And they succeeded.
他们成功了。
And you see just a huge increase in the acceptance towards transgender people.
你会发现人们对变性人的接受度大幅提高。
And overall, what you see is it's basically the largest effect I've ever seen for any political tactic.
总的来说，你所看到的基本上是我所见过的任何政治策略的最大影响。
So much more than phone calls or mail or other forms of canvassing that I've seen.
我所见过的不仅仅是电话、邮件或其他形式的拉票。
The effect is just huge.
效果是巨大的。
In other words, the thing that was so exciting about the discredited study turned out to be true.
换句话说，这项不可信的研究中令人兴奋的事情被证明是真的。
These canvasses can change people's minds.
这些游说可以改变人们的想法。
For real.
真正的。
Roughly one out of 10 voters changed their attitudes about transgender people.
大约十分之一的选民改变了对跨性别者的态度。
As the study notes, it took from 1998 to 2012-- 14 years-- for the country as a whole to have a comparable change in its attitudes towards gay people.
正如研究指出的，从 1998 年到 2012 年，也就是 14 年的时间里，整个国家对同性恋者的态度发生了类似的变化。
It only took the canvassers 20 minutes or less to do this for trans people.
游说者只花了 20 分钟或更短的时间就为跨性别者做到了这一点。
Broockman said the only political tactic that has ever been shown to be more effective than this in affecting attitudes is personally meeting somebody who's running for office, which of course, is a very different kind of thing.
布鲁克曼说，在影响态度方面，唯一被证明比这更有效的政治策略是亲自会见竞选公职的人，这当然是一种非常不同的事情。
More impressive is that the effect appears to last, that you basically see the exact same pattern of results six weeks later.
更令人印象深刻的是，效果似乎会持续，六周后你基本上会看到完全相同的结果模式。
We're going to start measuring again at, I think we decided three months and six months.
我们将再次开始测量，我想我们决定三个月和六个月。
So who knows if these will continue to last into the future?
那么谁知道这些是否会持续到未来呢？
They did.
他们做到了。
Three months later, attitudes stayed changed.
三个月后，人们的态度仍然发生了变化。
Again, same as the discredited study.
再次，与不可信的研究相同。
But where it gets really interesting is the stuff that the new guys found that is different from the original study.
但真正有趣的是新人发现的东西与最初的研究不同。
First difference?
第一个区别？
Remember how the original study said that only a gay canvasser could convince a voter to support gay marriage?
还记得最初的研究是如何说只有同性恋游说者才能说服选民支持同性婚姻吗？
And only a woman who talked about her own abortion could convince a voter to become pro-choice?
只有谈论自己堕胎的女性才能说服选民支持堕胎吗？
David Broockman says on these trans issues--
大卫·布鲁克曼就这些跨性别问题说道——
That's not what we're finding at all.
这根本不是我们所发现的。
We see that both transgender and non-transgender canvassers are effective, and they're similarly effective.
我们发现跨性别者和非跨性别者都是有效的游说者，而且他们的效果相似。
Which is a profoundly different finding from the original discredited study.
这是与最初的不可信研究截然不同的发现。
The original study seemed to say that it was meeting somebody, relating to a gay person or a trans person or whoever that changed people's attitudes.
最初的研究似乎说，它是与某个人见面，与同性恋者或跨性别者或任何改变人们态度的人有关。
It was empathy that did the trick.
正是同理心发挥了作用。
But this new study says it's something else entirely.
但这项新研究表明，情况完全不同。
Really what's happening here is it's listening and asking questions to voters to get them to say the words and to get them to do the mental work to think through how the experiences they have had are relevant to this issue.
实际上，这里发生的是倾听选民并向选民提出问题，让他们说出自己的想法，并让他们进行脑力劳动，思考他们的经历与这个问题有何关联。
In other words, there's this ideal of well, if you just met a gay person--
换句话说，如果你刚遇到一个同性恋者，那就有这样的理想——
That's right.
没错。
Ira Glass Then you'd have this feeling.
Ira Glass：那么你就会有这种感觉。
You're saying nah, that's not it.
你说的是啊，不是这样的。
The idea is that if the words come out of your own mouth, it's much more meaningful to you than if they come out of somebody else's mouth.
这个想法是，如果这些话从你自己嘴里说出来，对你来说比从别人嘴里说出来更有意义。
That's so funny, 'cause like, who do you believe?
这太有趣了，因为就像，你相信谁？
Oh, I believe myself.
哦，我相信我自己。
Exactly.
确切地。
So it's not that this isn't common sense.
所以这并不是说这不是常识。
But it's also not what any campaigns do.
但这也不是任何竞选活动都会做的事情。
Broockman and his co-author have also been working on a study of the abortion canvasses organized by the Los Angeles LGBT Center.
布鲁克曼和他的合著者也一直在对洛杉矶 LGBT 中心组织的堕胎游说进行研究。
And here's another difference from the original discredited research done by Michael LaCour.
这是与迈克尔·拉库尔最初所做的不可信研究的另一个区别。
Broockman has found the abortion canvasses failed.
布鲁克曼发现堕胎游说失败了。
They didn't actually convince people.
他们实际上并没有说服人们。
No effect for anybody.
对任何人都没有影响。
Ira Glass No effect for anyone.
Ira Glass 对任何人都没有影响。
Right.
正确的。
Ira Glass How do you explain that this worked with the trans issue, but it didn't work with the abortion issue?
Ira Glass：你如何解释这对跨性别问题有效，但对堕胎问题不起作用？
Well, I think there's a lot of possibilities.
嗯，我认为有很多可能性。
One possibility is that trans issues are so new, whereas abortion is so ingrained that it was just easier.
一种可能性是，跨性别问题是如此新鲜，而堕胎却如此根深蒂固，以至于更容易发生。
Like--
就像——
In other words, people haven't really formed very firm opinions about trans issues--
换句话说，人们对于跨性别问题还没有真正形成非常坚定的看法——
Exactly.
正是如此。
Ira Glass Whereas everybody knows where they stand.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 而每个人都知道自己的立场。
Every adult knows whether they're for or against abortion rights.
每个成年人都知道他们是支持还是反对堕胎权。
The other possibility, of course, is that canvass organizers just haven't figured out yet how to talk about abortion at the doorstep in a way that lastingly convinces anyone.
当然，另一种可能性是游说组织者还没有弄清楚如何以一种持久说服任何人的方式在家门口谈论堕胎问题。
We tried very hard, by the way.
顺便说一句，我们非常努力。
Somebody actually flew to Los Angeles to locate that nurse that you heard at the beginning of the program to find out if she went back to her old pro-life beliefs after the canvasser walked away from the door.
实际上有人飞到洛杉矶找到你在节目开始时听到的那位护士，看看在游说者走开后她是否又回到了原来的反堕胎信仰。
But we couldn't find her.
但我们找不到她。
I will say in videos of the Miami canvass, one thing that's really striking is how malleable people do seem to be on the transgender issues in this way that's very hard to imagine on abortion rights.
我要在迈阿密拉票的视频中说，真正引人注目的一件事是，可塑性强的人们在跨性别问题上似乎确实以这种方式对待堕胎权，这是很难想象的。
Sometimes a canvasser has to explain to the voters exactly what transgender means.
有时，游说者必须向选民准确解释变性人的含义。
They have to show videos to be sure that it's understood what it is that they're even talking about.
他们必须播放视频以确保人们理解他们正在谈论的内容。
Or take this man, an older voter with a kind face who stands at his doorstep in a sleeveless undershirt telling that same canvasser that you heard at the beginning of the program--
或者以这个男人为例，他是一位面容慈祥的年长选民，穿着无袖汗衫站在自家门口，对你在节目开始时听到的同一个游说者说——
There is one thing that disturb me.
有件事让我不安。
I don't know if let's say, a man that is a fag using a man's clothes going into ladies bathroom.
我不知道是否可以这么说，一个男人穿着男人的衣服进入女厕所。
That I don't really like.
我真的不喜欢。
They talked for a while.
他们聊了一会儿。
He's from Ecuador.
他来自厄瓜多尔。
Doesn't get out much because he's at home caring for his wife, who has dementia.
他很少出门，因为他在家照顾患有痴呆症的妻子。
Doesn't have many friends.
没有很多朋友。
And seems genuinely confused about the difference between trans and gay.
并且似乎真的对跨性别者和同性恋者之间的区别感到困惑。
The canvasser explains what is what about that to him.
文字布道员向他解释了这到底是怎么回事。
She even helpfully informs him--
她甚至帮忙告诉他——
So we don't usually use the word fag.
所以我们通常不使用“fag”这个词。
So--
所以——
He apologizes.
他道歉了。
Says that spending all of his time with his wife, maybe he's getting demented too.
说他所有的时间都和妻子在一起，也许他也变得疯狂了。
Forgetting how to talk to people.
忘记如何与人交谈。
And by the end, it is just like the researcher Broockman said.
到最后，就像研究员布鲁克曼所说的那样。
The voter is the one reflecting on his experience, drawing new conclusions.
选民是反思自己的经历并得出新结论的人。
[LAUGHS] So-- Male Voter I'm so glad that I'm talking to a really intelligent person that made me--
[笑]所以——男性选民，我很高兴我正在和一个非常聪明的人交谈，他让我——
It's kind of hard to hear.
有点难听。
He's saying, I'm glad to be talking to an intelligent person that made me think about my own background.
他说，我很高兴能与一位聪明的人交谈，这让我思考了自己的背景。
And that it was very old.
而且它已经很旧了。
OK, one last thing.
好吧，最后一件事。
I guess this is the most obvious question probably that I could ask in this story.
我想这可能是我在这个故事中可以问的最明显的问题。
And I just want you to know I did ask it.
我只是想让你知道我确实问过这个问题。
Here's the recording.
这是录音。
OK, so there's one study published in Science magazine like a year ago.
好的，一年前《科学》杂志上发表了一项研究。
It says that this works.
它说这有效。
It was proven to be a fraud.
事实证明这是一场骗局。
Now you guys are coming out with a study in Science magazine saying that this works.
现在你们在《科学》杂志上发表了一项研究，说这是有效的。
Why should we believe you?
我们为什么要相信你？
We've thought about this.
我们已经考虑过这个问题。
As silly as it was, we did have one of our old graduate advisors-- Gabriel Lenz at Berkeley-- independently verify and go through that the original raw data collected in the survey platform matched all the stages of the data that we collected, data from the study that we'll then post publicly.
尽管这很愚蠢，但我们确实有一位老研究生导师——伯克利大学的加布里埃尔·伦茨(Gabriel Lenz)——独立验证并检查了调查平台中收集的原始数据是否与我们收集的所有阶段的数据相匹配，这些数据来自我们随后将公开发布的研究数据。
He's saying that unlike Michael LaCour, they gave their actual raw information of what all the survey respondents said to somebody else to look at, who also made sure that the numbers in their charts and graphs and analysis match what the actual surveys say.
他说，与迈克尔·拉库尔不同，他们将所有调查受访者所说的实际原始信息提供给其他人查看，其他人还确保图表和分析中的数字与实际调查结果相符。
They're posting the original survey data without people's names or identifying information online for anybody to inspect.
他们在网上发布没有姓名或身份信息的原始调查数据，供任何人检查。
Science marches on.
科学不断前进。
Coming up, a stranger tries to make somebody rethink everything in his life over the phone in one hour in one conversation.
接下来，一位陌生人试图通过电话在一小时的谈话中让某人重新思考他生活中的一切。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
Each week on our program of course, we choose some theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一些主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program, "For your Reconsideration."
今天的节目“供您重新考虑”。
We have stories today of people going back and rethinking evidence, reconsidering where they've been and what has come before.
今天，我们有这样的故事：人们回顾过去，重新思考证据，重新考虑他们去过的地方以及之前发生过的事情。
We have arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第二幕。
Act Two, "Hotline Bleak."
第二幕，“热线惨淡”。
So here's an example of a guy reconsidering his life in real time on the phone with a complete stranger.
这是一个例子，一个人通过电话与一个完全陌生的人实时重新考虑他的生活。
The recording comes from Chris Gethard, who's a comedian.
录音来自喜剧演员克里斯·格哈德。
He also does a cable TV show.
他还制作有线电视节目。
He's been on our program now and then.
他时不时地参加我们的节目。
And the recording that I want to play you comes from this new podcast that Chris is doing called Beautiful Stories From Anonymous People.
我想给你播放的录音来自克里斯正在做的一个新播客，名为《匿名者的美丽故事》。
Our editor Joel Lovell is the one who heard it and loved it.
我们的编辑乔尔·洛弗尔（Joel Lovell）是听到并喜欢它的人。
So the idea for the podcast is pretty simple.
所以播客的想法非常简单。
Chris is in a studio in New York, and he opens the phone line to one caller, an anonymous person calling in from anywhere for any reason at all.
克里斯在纽约的一间工作室里，他为一个来电者打开电话线，这个匿名者从任何地方以任何理由打来电话。
The only rules guiding the conversation are it's 60 minutes long and Chris can't hang up.
指导谈话的唯一规则是谈话时长为 60 分钟，而且克里斯不能挂断电话。
If the caller decides to get off the line before the hour is up, if they get annoyed or mad or tired of Chris, that's totally fine.
如果打电话的人决定在一小时结束之前挂断电话，如果他们对克里斯感到恼火、生气或厌倦，那完全没问题。
But Chris, he's in it for the duration.
但克里斯，他一直都在其中。
In this call you're about to hear, you can feel him at the beginning getting his bearings, so it's a little meandering.
在你即将听到的这个电话中，你可以感觉到他一开始就掌握了方向，所以有点曲折。
And then something changes.
然后有些事情发生了变化。
[BEEP] Chris Gethard Hey, this is Gethard.
[BEEP] 克里斯·格哈德 嘿，我是格哈德。
How are you?
你好吗？
Hey, what's up?
嘿，怎么了？
Chris Gethard Eh, not much.
克里斯·格哈德 嗯，不多。
Just a second.
稍等一下。
I'm in a weird hallway right now.
我现在在一个奇怪的走廊里。
Am I echoey?
我是回声吗？
Awesome.
惊人的。
Chris Gethard So what are we talking about?
克里斯·格哈德 那么我们在说什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm at work.
我在工作。
I just took about a 30-minute break in my car.
我刚刚在车里休息了大约30分钟。
I walked back in and then yeah, just nobody's here.
我走进去，然后是的，只是没人在这里。
I do customer service for accounts payable.
我负责应付账款的客户服务。
Oh, it's the worst, Chris.
哦，这是最糟糕的，克里斯。
Chris Gethard Yeah, it sounds like it.
克里斯·格哈德 是的，听起来是这样。
I didn't want to be judgmental, but it sounds awful.
我不想做出评判，但这听起来很糟糕。
[LAUGHS] You're hiding in your car.
[笑]你躲在车里。
Yeah.
是的。
It's been a year I've been doing this.
我这样做已经一年了。
I just feel like I've kind of wasted the last year.
我只是觉得我去年有点浪费了。
I feel like I spend a lot of time not doing things.
我感觉我花了很多时间没有做事。
I don't-- go to that-- take those improv classes.
我不去参加那些即兴表演课程。
But even when I say what are the things, you don't quite--
但即使当我说出这些是什么时，你也不太——
Yeah, I-- Chris Gethard You don't really even know what the things are.
是的，我——克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard），你甚至都不知道这些东西是什么。
I feel I'm generally uncertain about everything.
我觉得我通常对一切都不确定。
You kind of have a dream to have some dreams.
你有点梦想有一些梦想。
Mhm.
嗯。
Chris Gethard Man, that's-- I don't want to be judgmental.
Chris Gethard 曼，我不想做出评判。
I'm not trying to be judgmental.
我并不是想做出评判。
I say this with love.
我满怀爱意地说这句话。
That's a--
那是一个——
No. I know.
不，我知道。
Chris Gethard That's a grim place to be.
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard） 那是一个严峻的地方。
This kind of conversation with a sad person who has a vague wish to join an improv class or maybe go to an open mic night but probably won't, this is really familiar terrain for Chris.
与一个悲伤的人进行这种对话，他模糊地希望参加即兴表演课程，或者可能去参加一个开放麦克风之夜，但可能不会，这对克里斯来说确实是熟悉的领域。
He hosts a show on cable and he often talks about his own mental health struggles.
他在有线电视上主持节目，经常谈论自己的心理健康问题。
And he and his staff, they're always concocting ingenious ways to motivate and cheer up depressed people.
他和他的员工总是想出巧妙的方法来激励和振奋沮丧的人们。
Specifically, their own depressed fans.
具体来说，就是他们自己郁闷的粉丝。
There's this one episode where Chris says, "OK, we're going to generate some footage here for people to revisit if they ever need to feel better." And then Ellie Kemper, that really sunny actress from The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt comes on.
在这一集中，克里斯说：“好吧，我们将在这里生成一些镜头，供人们在需要感觉更好时重新观看。”然后艾莉·肯珀 (Ellie Kemper)，《坚不可摧的吉米·施密特》中那位非常阳光的女演员登场。
And they just keep bringing out impossibly cute things.
他们只是不断地推出一些不可思议的可爱的东西。
There's a basket of bunnies.
有一篮子兔子。
"Oh bunnies!" Chris Gethard "Oh, look at these little baby bunnies!"
“噢，兔子们！”克里斯·格哈德“哦，看看这些小兔子宝宝！”
And then a kitten.
然后是一只小猫。
And then a baby dressed in a tuxedo.
然后是一个穿着燕尾服的婴儿。
And she keeps having these huge spasms of joy.
她不断地感受到巨大的喜悦。
All of which is to say this guy on the line saying he's not even sure what his dreams are, for Chris, that's like someone calling Suze Orman to talk about their FICO score.
所有这些都是在说，这个电话里的人说他甚至不确定自己的梦想是什么，对于克里斯来说，这就像有人打电话给苏西·奥曼谈论他们的 FICO 分数一样。
So how do we work on this?
那么我们如何开展这方面的工作呢？
Caller I don't know, Chris.
打电话的人我不知道，克里斯。
I think I've probably been drinking too much, smoking too much weed.
我想我可能喝太多了，吸了太多大麻。
I need to be exercising.
我需要锻炼身体。
I should be meditating.
我应该冥想。
I should be going to therapy.
我应该去接受治疗。
Feels like this phone call-- Caller Is this becoming therapy?
感觉就像这个电话——来电者这正在成为一种疗法吗？
Well, it feels like this phone call is you taking one of the actions you say you don't usually take.
好吧，感觉这个电话是你正在采取的行动之一，你说你通常不会采取这种行动。
Mhm.
嗯。
Chris Gethard So I feel some responsibility to effect permanent change via this phone call.
Chris Gethard 所以我觉得有责任通过这次电话实现永久性的改变。
Yeah.
是的。
That'd be nice.
那就太好了。
I don't want to put that pressure on you.
我不想给你这样的压力。
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard What do I gotta do on this phone call?
克里斯·格哈德 这个电话我该怎么办？
What do I gotta do in the next 49 minutes and 28 seconds?
接下来的 49 分 28 秒我该做什么？
What do I gotta do to get you to never walk back into that office again?
我该怎么做才能让你不再走进那间办公室？
What do I gotta do to get you to get back in your car on this phone call and drive away from that office you hate while on this phone call?
我该怎么做才能让你在这个电话中回到你的车里，并开车离开你在这个电话中讨厌的办公室？
For the next 10 minutes or so, they talk exit strategies.
在接下来的 10 分钟左右的时间里，他们讨论退出策略。
Like "OK, let's start blue skying here.
就像“好吧，让我们从这里开始蓝天。
Do you have enough saved up to get out right now and buy yourself a little time to look for something better?" He's got $300 in the bank.
你有足够的积蓄现在就出去，为自己争取一点时间去寻找更好的东西吗？”他在银行里有 300 美元。
So no, not even close.
所以不，甚至不接近。
"All right, well, what else do you want to do?" No clear idea.
“好吧，那你还想做什么？”没有明确的想法。
His current plan is to get free by just being terrible at his job.
他目前的计划是通过糟糕的工作来获得自由。
There was a point-- and it's still kind of ongoing since the summer-- of trying to get fired.
有一种观点——自夏天以来仍然持续存在——试图被解雇。
OK, so then-- Caller Yeah.
好的，那么—— 来电者 是的。
Actively shirking responsibility.
主动推卸责任。
You found that, that you-- Caller And that makes it--that feels worse.
你发现，你——来电者，这让——感觉更糟。
[LAUGHS] It does.
[笑]确实如此。
It feels worse.
感觉更糟了。
You don't feel like you're getting away with something.
你不会觉得自己正在逃避某些事情。
It's like, oh-- Chris Gethard You don't feel like you're sticking it to the man.
就像，哦——克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard），你不觉得你把它粘在这个男人身上。
You just--
你只是——
Nothing.
什么也没有。
You're not holding me to a very high standard.
你没有对我提出很高的标准。
Can I ask how you got here?
我能问一下你是怎么到这里的吗？
Where does it start?
从哪里开始？
Not even thinking about the job.
甚至没有考虑工作。
Where does it start?
从哪里开始？
Where do you come from?
你从哪里来的？
How do you grow up?
你如何长大？
And this is what you're telling me about.
这就是你告诉我的。
The beginning!
开始！
We got 40 minutes.
我们有 40 分钟时间。
We got 39 minutes.
我们还有 39 分钟。
The beginning of my life?
我生命的开始？
Chris Gethard Yes!
克里斯·格哈德 是的！
I want to hear about the beginning of your life.
我想听听你生命的开始。
Yeah, I was born in Lake Jackson, Texas.
是的，我出生在德克萨斯州杰克逊湖。
The doctor that delivered me, I believe, was Ron Paul.
我相信，接生我的医生是罗恩·保罗。
Yeah, he was the OB/GYN and the Congressman in the district I'm from.
是的，他是我所在地区的妇产科医生和国会议员。
I ask you about the beginning of your life and the answer is that you were delivered into the world by rabble-rousing outsider politician Ron Paul.
我问你生命的开始，答案是你是由煽动暴民的局外政治家罗恩·保罗来到这个世界的。
I'll just add this to that day.
我会把这个添加到那天。
When I was born, my mom had been in prison.
我出生时，我妈妈正在监狱里。
And they let her out of prison to have me.
他们让她出狱生下我。
Wow!
哇！
Can I ask what your mom was in prison for?
请问你妈妈是因为什么入狱的？
Mostly drugs and the types of things you do to get drugs.
主要是毒品和你为获取毒品所做的事情类型。
Yeah.
是的。
Caller I was raised by my grandparents.
来电者 我是由祖父母抚养长大的。
Now I didn't know who my dad was until I was 14.
直到我14岁的时候我才知道我的父亲是谁。
14.
14.
OK.
好的。
Caller There was kind of a different guy I thought was my dad.
来电者 我认为有一个不同的人是我的父亲。
Some balding, redheaded redneck.
一些秃头、红发的乡巴佬。
But my dad was the guy my mom was married to before that.
但我爸爸是我妈妈之前结婚的那个人。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Caller They got married in high school in Montana.
他们在蒙大拿州读高中时结婚。
Moved down to Texas, got divorced, then hooked up 10 years later at the fair.
搬到得克萨斯州，离婚，十年后在博览会上交往。
At the fair.
在展会上。
Caller Yeah, at the fair.
来电者 是的，在展会上。
And then that's where I came from.
那就是我来自的地方。
I was a carnival baby.
我是一个狂欢节的婴儿。
Hold on.
坚持，稍等。
You gotta give me permission to laugh at the phrase "carnival baby." 'Cause this is a very personal--
你得允许我嘲笑“嘉年华宝贝”这个词。因为这是一个非常个人化的——
Oh yeah, of course.
哦，是的，当然。
Chris Gethard [LAUGHS] Thank you so much.
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard）[笑]非常感谢。
This is a personal story and there's a lot of grim details to it.
这是一个个人故事，其中有很多残酷的细节。
But you can't use the phrase--
但你不能使用这个短语——
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard "I was a carnival baby" and not expect me to laugh a little bit.
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard）“我是一个嘉年华婴儿”，没想到我会笑一点。
Yeah, no. Chris Gethard Now when you say they hooked up at the fair, do you mean they saw each other at the fair, remembered their old flame, went back to one or the other's house, and had a night of lovemaking to remember the old times?
是的，不。克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard）现在，当你说他们在集市上勾搭上时，你的意思是他们在集市上见到了对方，想起了他们的旧情人，回到了一个或另一个的房子，并度过了一个做爱的夜晚来回忆过去的时光？
Or are you saying ran into each other at the fair and then behind the [BEEP] Gravitron, you get conceived?
或者你是说在集市上遇到了对方，然后在 [BEEP] Gravitron 后面，你们怀孕了？
'Cause I don't want to be crass.
因为我不想变得粗鲁。
I'm not trying to be insensitive.
我并不是想表现得麻木不仁。
But you're telling me, your perception is you were conceived behind a corn dog stand?
但你告诉我，你的感觉是你是在玉米热狗摊后面受孕的？
Yeah.
是的。
I imagined in the bathroom.
我想象在浴室里。
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
Man, you have had to think hard about the circumstances of your conception more than almost anybody I've ever met.
伙计，你比我见过的几乎任何人都必须更加认真地思考你受孕的情况。
Yeah.
是的。
Joel Lovell I should say here that we tracked the caller down and talked to some of his relatives.
乔尔·洛弗尔（Joel Lovell） 我应该在这里说，我们找到了打电话的人并与他的一些亲戚进行了交谈。
And everything he says in this conversation-- being delivered by Ron Paul, his mom being in prison, his having been conceived at the fair-- it's all true.
他在这次谈话中所说的一切——由罗恩·保罗讲述、他的母亲在监狱里、他是在集市上怀上的——这一切都是真的。
So Chris says, what's next?
克里斯说，接下来怎么办？
They're at 33 minutes and the clock's ticking and you can start to hear a little urgency in his voice.
时间已经到了 33 分钟，时间一分一秒过去，你可以开始从他的声音中听出一丝紧迫感。
And the guy walks him through high school and college.
这个人陪他读完了高中和大学。
And then after college, he moves into a trailer park.
大学毕业后，他搬进了一个拖车公园。
And a neighbor there tells him about a job opening at the place where he's calling from now, a company with the almost diabolically generic name Bank Tech, where he spends big swaths of his time hiding out in the hallway or eating yogurt out in his car.
那里的一位邻居告诉他，他现在打电话的地方有一个职位空缺，这家公司的名字几乎是恶魔般的通用名称 Bank Tech，他大部分时间都躲在走廊里，或者在车里吃酸奶。
So there's that, I guess, the private yogurt time.
我想这就是私人酸奶时间。
But otherwise, it's soul death.
但除此之外，那就是灵魂的死亡。
Just slow, low wattage depression.
只是缓慢、低瓦数的抑制。
There's about 10 minutes of that.
大约有10分钟的时间。
And then Chris starts to press him.
然后克里斯开始向他施压。
He actually really tries to change the guy's life in the brief time they have left.
他实际上真的想在他们剩下的短暂时间内改变这个人的生活。
What makes you happy on a daily basis?
是什么让你每天都感到快乐？
What are the moments that wake you up?
哪些时刻让你醒来？
I don't know if I can confidently give you an answer on that.
我不知道我是否可以自信地给你答案。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I feel like lately it's been go to work, go home, internet, drink, smoke, sleep, repeat.
我感觉最近就是上班、回家、上网、喝酒、抽烟、睡觉，如此周而复始。
So we can call this one.
所以我们可以称之为这个。
Honestly, you're giving up a little bit huh?
老实说，你有点放弃了吧？
No, I'm not giving up.
不，我不会放弃。
Do you feel like I am?
你觉得像我吗？
Am I shutting down?
我要关机了吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean, I don't know you at all beyond the past 43 minutes of our time together.
我的意思是，除了我们在一起的 43 分钟之外，我根本就不认识你了。
But I'll say it sounds to me like you fought all the way through college.
但我想说，在我看来，你在大学里一直在奋斗。
And then it sounds like after college, sounds like you stopped fighting.
然后听起来就像大学毕业后，你就停止了战斗。
That's accurate, I think.
我认为这是准确的。
Chris Gethard Right?
克里斯·格哈德 对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard What do I gotta do here?
克里斯·格哈德 我在这里该怎么办？
What do I gotta do?
我该怎么办？
You tell me what I gotta do, 'cause I want to help.
你告诉我我必须做什么，因为我想帮忙。
And we got 13 minutes left.
我们还剩 13 分钟。
And then the phone gets hung up and I might never speak to you again in our whole lives.
然后电话就挂了，我可能这辈子都不会再和你说话了。
And this one I'm going to think about forever.
我将永远思考这一点。
Do you have a pep talk?
你有鼓舞士气的话吗？
How do I start fighting?
我该如何开始战斗？
I feel like this whole phone call's been the goddamn pep talk!
我觉得整个电话都是该死的鼓舞人心的谈话！
But I want to so bad.
但我太想了。
You should be going to see a band or a comedy show every night.
你应该每晚都去看乐队或喜剧表演。
You should be staying out late and talking to people every night, 'cause it sounds like you have a job where you could show up and literally go to sleep and no one would care.
你应该每天晚上在外面待到很晚，并与人交谈，因为听起来你的工作可以让你出现，然后就可以入睡，没有人会在乎。
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard Sounds like if you--
克里斯·格哈德 听起来如果你——
It sounds like if you got four hours of sleep every night 'cause you were out experiencing art and hanging out with people and doing crazy things and just living, you could come into Bank Tech, say hello, lay down under your desk, wake up eight hours later, and do it all again, and there would be no consequences.
听起来，如果你每晚睡四个小时，因为你出去体验艺术，与人交往，做疯狂的事情，只是为了生活，你可以进入 Bank Tech，打个招呼，躺在桌子下，八小时后醒来，然后再做一遍，不会有任何后果。
You gotta live!
你一定要活下去！
Caller I feel like I get off work and I'm like, oh eight hours of sleep.
来电者我感觉我下班了，我想，哦，八个小时的睡眠。
Tonight's Monday?
今晚是星期一吗？
I'm just going to ask.
我只是想问问。
My heart is bleeding a little bit.
我的心在微微流血。
What city are you in?
你在哪个城市？
You're in Denton?
你在丹顿吗？
Denton has a huge music scene!
丹顿有一个巨大的音乐场景！
Denton's like, an arts hub of Texas!
丹顿就像德克萨斯州的艺术中心！
I know!
我知道！
Chris Gethard You're in the middle of it all!
Chris Gethard 你就在这一切之中！
Go!
去！
You go see the Marked Men!
你去看看那些被标记的人吧！
You go see the Mind Spiders!
你去看看心灵蜘蛛吧！
Even I know the bands that are in Denton, and I live in New York!
就连我也知道丹顿的乐队，而我住在纽约！
You go!
你去！
You live in Denton!
你住在丹顿！
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard It's full of college people who are beautiful and young and making mistakes!
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard） 里面充满了又漂亮又年轻却犯错误的大学生！
You've got to just go!
你必须走！
I know.
我知道。
Chris Gethard There's stuff everywhere!
Chris Gethard 到处都是东西！
There's no excuse, is there?
没有任何借口，不是吗？
Chris Gethard I'm going to wonder forever if you did it!
克里斯·格哈德 我会永远想知道你是否做到了！
I should've-- Chris Gethard I'm going to wonder forever if you did it.
我应该——克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard） 我会永远想知道你是否做到了。
We got seven minutes and I'm not convinced.
我们只有七分钟时间，但我不相信。
Oh.
哦。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm not convinced either.
我也不相信。
No!
不！
That's not the answer I wanted!
这不是我想要的答案！
I wanted you to say, no this has effected permanent change!
我想让你说，不，这已经带来了永久性的改变！
I've seen enough of my patterns.
我已经看够了我的模式。
You'll know!
你就会知道！
Oh god!
天啊！
Caller I'll go do it and you'll know.
打电话的人，我去办一下，你就会知道。
Are you inside?
你在里面吗？
Are you still in that weird hallway?
你还在那个奇怪的走廊里吗？
No. I'm outside by a tree that I'm pacing around.
不，我在外面的一棵树旁边踱步。
You're by a tree!
你在树旁边！
I need you-- just start screaming.
我需要你——开始尖叫吧。
I need you to scream as loud as you can.
我需要你尽可能大声地尖叫。
Break the pattern!
打破格局！
Do a thing!
做一件事！
That's the first--
这是第一个——
That's a first step.
这是第一步。
That's what I got.
这就是我得到的。
That's the first step.
这是第一步。
You just started screaming in the middle of the day.
你刚刚在中午开始尖叫。
That's the first step?
这是第一步吗？
Chris Gethard I think so, man.
克里斯·格哈德 我想是的，伙计。
Did it feel good to scream or just weird?
尖叫感觉很好还是很奇怪？
Yeah, no. It felt good.
是的，不。感觉很好。
I'm a very loud person.
我是一个非常大声的人。
Are those birds?
那些是鸟吗？
Do I hear birds back there?
我听到那边有鸟叫吗？
Is that good?
这样好吗？
Yeah, there are birds around here.
是的，这附近有鸟。
Someone pulled up right next to me, or I'd scream.
有人把车停在我旁边，否则我会尖叫。
Should I scream anyways?
无论如何我应该尖叫吗？
You tell me if it would feel good.
你告诉我这是否感觉良好。
If it would feel good--
如果感觉良好的话——
[SCREAMS] Yeah.
[尖叫声] 是的。
I'm 10 minutes away from Dallas Comedy House.
我距离达拉斯喜剧之家 10 分钟路程。
You're killing me.
你要杀了我。
Do they have open mics there?
他们那里有开放式麦克风吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Open mics.
打开麦克风。
I've known for months.
我已经知道几个月了
Open Mics Tuesday.
周二开放麦克风。
I've got something ready.
我已经准备好了一些东西。
You've got an act?
你有戏吗？
You've got an act you want to try?
你有想要尝试的表演吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard You're doing it tomorrow.
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard） 你明天就要做。
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard You're doing it tomorrow.
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard） 你明天就要做。
What time is the open mic?
麦克风开放时间是几点？
I think it's at 7:00 or 8:00.
我认为是 7:00 或 8:00。
Chris Gethard You're doing it tomorrow.
克里斯·格哈德（Chris Gethard） 你明天就要做。
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard You're going to do it.
克里斯·格哈德 你会做到的。
And here's what's going to happen, is you're going to go and it's going to go terrible.
这就是将要发生的事情，你要离开，事情会变得很糟糕。
It's your first open mic.
这是您第一次打开麦克风。
It's going to go awful.
事情会变得很糟糕。
It's not going to be fun.
这不会很有趣。
You're not going to be funny and it's going to feel really uncomfortable.
你不会变得有趣，而且会感觉非常不舒服。
But you're gonna feel [BLEEP] alive, man.
但你会感觉[哔]还活着，伙计。
Yeah.
是的。
Chris Gethard You're going to feel alive.
Chris Gethard 你会感觉自己还活着。
You promise me you do that open mic tomorrow?
你答应我明天你会打开麦克风吗？
You promise me?
你答应我吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I'll get it done.
我会完成它。
Chris Gethard OK, let's seal the promise.
克里斯·格哈德 好吧，让我们兑现承诺吧。
Do you know how we have to seal the promise?
你知道我们要如何兑现承诺吗？
How do we seal it?
我们如何密封它？
Chris Gethard Both at the same time.
克里斯·格哈德 两者同时出现。
Ready?
准备好？
One, two, three.
一二三。
[SCREAMS]
[尖叫声]
Joel Lovell That was it.
乔尔·洛弗尔 就是这样。
He and Chris never talked again.
他和克里斯再也没有说过话。
So I asked the guy did he go to that open mic the next night?
所以我问那个人第二天晚上他去那个开放麦克风了吗？
Nah, he didn't make it.
不，他没有成功。
Right after talking to Chris though, he set a date.
不过，在与克里斯交谈后，他就确定了一个日期。
March 21st.
3 月 21 日。
That's when he'd quit his job and start living.
就在那时，他辞掉了工作，开始了生活。
But then as the date got close, he told me he tried to do everything he could to undermine his own plan.
但随着日期的临近，他告诉我，他试图尽一切努力破坏自己的计划。
He wasn't sure why, he just felt like he couldn't go through with it.
不知道为什么，他就是觉得自己过不去。
And then that same week, this conversation went out on Chris's podcast.
然后就在同一周，这段对话出现在克里斯的播客上。
He had no idea they were going to run it.
他不知道他们会经营它。
But he listened to it and he heard himself talk for an hour about all these things he wants to do but never does.
但他听着，他听到自己谈论了一个小时，谈论所有这些他想做但从未做的事情。
And then he did it.
然后他做到了。
He went in to Bank Tech and quit.
他进入 Bank Tech 并辞职了。
Joel Lovell is the editor of our program.
乔尔·洛弗尔是我们节目的编辑。
The podcast again is called Beautiful Stories From Anonymous People.
该播客再次被称为“匿名者的美丽故事”。
Act Three, "Kids Look Back." So today we're hearing stories about people reconsidering and reexamining what happened to them in the past.
第三幕，“孩子们回头看”。所以今天我们听到的故事是关于人们重新考虑和审视过去发生在他们身上的事情。
And now with an entire book, I understand, of children doing this?
我明白，现在有一整本书都是关于孩子们这样做的？
Is that right, Brian?
是这样吗，布莱恩？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass I welcome into our studio our senior producer Brian Reed.
Ira Glass 我欢迎高级制作人 Brian Reed 来到我们的工作室。
So I have this book here I'd like to share with you.
所以我想与大家分享这本书。
I really enjoy it.
我真的很喜欢它。
It's called Now I Know Better: Kids Tell Kids About Safety.
这本书的名字叫《现在我更了解了：孩子们告诉孩子们安全》。
Now wait a second.
现在等一下。
You have it right there.
你就在那里。
You're handing me--
你递给我——
Oh, it's old school.
哦，这是老派。
Yeah, I had to find it used on Amazon.
是的，我必须在亚马逊上找到它的使用情况。
Not in circulation anymore.
不再流通。
This is a rare copy.
这是一个罕见的副本。
OK.
好的。
Brian Reed So the premise of this is that it's kids telling other kids about safety.
Brian Reed 因此，前提是孩子们要告诉其他孩子有关安全的知识。
By telling war stories that they've been through, essentially.
本质上是通过讲述他们经历过的战争故事。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
So is every story in this book a kid being like, oh I did this dumb ass thing, now I know better, don't do what I did?
那么，这本书中的每个故事都是不是一个孩子会说，哦，我做了这件蠢事，现在我知道得更多了，不要做我所做的事情吗？
So my best friend, Christopher Alesevich, is a contributor, actually.
事实上，我最好的朋友 Christopher Alesevich 也是一名贡献者。
He was 10 years old, I think, when he wrote this about an experience he had when he was five.
我想，当他写下这篇关于他五岁时的经历的文章时，他已经十岁了。
Basically he was-- [LAUGHS] I guess he was playing in his yard on his swing set.
基本上他是——[笑]我猜他正在院子里的秋千上玩耍。
And I remember this swing set.
我还记得这套秋千。
It was there when we were growing up.
当我们长大的时候它就在那里。
It's got a fort part to it.
它有一个堡垒部分。
Mhm.
嗯。
Brian Reed This was slightly before I met him, I believe.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 我相信这是我遇见他之前不久的事。
Mhm.
嗯。
Brian Reed And he and his friend Michelle, for some reason they got it in their mind that it would be cool to make some kind of wall around this fort by wrapping string all the way around the fort many, many times.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）和他的朋友米歇尔（Michelle）出于某种原因想到，通过在堡垒周围缠绕绳子很多很多次来在这座堡垒周围建造某种墙会很酷。
And at some point, they decided OK, it's time to cut the string off.
在某个时刻，他们决定，是时候剪断绳子了。
So Michelle asked him to get some scissors.
于是米歇尔请他去拿剪刀。
Christopher knew where the scissors were.
克里斯托弗知道剪刀在哪里。
They were in the drawer in the kitchen somewhere.
它们在厨房的抽屉里。
So he ran inside, he got the scissors, he brought them out.
于是他跑进去，拿起剪刀，拿出来。
Oh no. I feel-- now that scissors have entered the scene, now I feel worried.
哦不。我觉得——现在剪刀已经登场了，我现在感到担心了。
[LAUGHS] Yes.
[笑]是的。
And you should.
你应该这样做。
So then Michelle began cutting some of the string.
然后米歇尔开始剪断一些绳子。
And Christopher, to hear him tell it, basically wanted to get a closer look.
克里斯托弗听他这么说，基本上是想仔细看看。
And she cut towards his eye, and the scissors went into his left eye.
她向他的眼睛切去，剪刀刺进了他的左眼。
[WHISPERS] Oh my god!
[低语] 天哪！
Brian Reed Just right in there.
布莱恩·里德 就在那里。
Poor kid.
可怜的孩子。
Brian Reed He says he actually didn't really feel pain, amazingly.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed） 他说他实际上并没有真正感到疼痛，这令人惊讶。
But he did know something was wrong.
但他确实知道出了什么问题。
There was fluid coming down out of his eye.
有液体从他的眼睛里流下来。
Anyway, he needed very serious eye surgery.
无论如何，他需要进行非常严重的眼部手术。
He was in the hospital for days.
他在医院住了好几天。
So the thing about his story and about so many of these stories that I really love is one, the tone of them.
因此，关于他的故事以及许多我真正喜欢的故事，有一点就是它们的基调。
[LAUGHS] They were written-- just imagine a five-year-old or an eight-year-old writing a war story.
[笑]它们是写出来的——想象一下一个五岁或八岁的孩子写一个战争故事。
Just kind of telling it.
只是有点告诉它。
Like, imagine them sitting in a bar like sidled up with like whiskey and they're a 10-year-old talking about the time they had scissors shoved into their eye.
就像，想象一下，他们坐在酒吧里，一边喝着威士忌，一边喝着威士忌，他们是一个 10 岁的孩子，正在谈论自己的眼睛被剪刀插进的那次经历。
So it's not just kids looking back.
所以不仅仅是孩子们在回顾。
It's kids looking back with an unnatural seriousness that's being pressed on them by the adults who are writing the book?
是孩子们以一种不自然的严肃态度回顾过去，而写这本书的成年人却向他们施加了压力？
Yeah, I guess so.
是的，我想是的。
Yeah, that's what's happening.
是的，这就是正在发生的事情。
Let's hear what it sounds like.
让我们听听它听起来是什么样的。
Here, read what your friend writes.
在这里，阅读你朋友写的内容。
And read it kind of like a grizzled war vet.
就像一位头发花白的老兵一样读它。
OK.
好的。
(GRAVELY) "The scissors jerked back and poked me right in the eye.
（严肃地）“剪刀猛地向后一转，正好戳到了我的眼睛。
I don't remember much of what followed, except that my mom and dad took me to St. Vincent Hospital where Dr. Mark Steckel did surgery on my eye.
接下来的事情我不太记得了，只记得爸爸妈妈带我去了圣文森特医院，马克·斯特克尔医生在那里给我做了眼睛手术。
I learned not to put my eyes near any sharp objects.
我学会了不要让眼睛靠近任何尖锐的物体。
And I would advise you to do the same."
我建议你也这样做。”
[LAUGHS] Brian Reed "Christopher Alesevich, age 10."
[笑] Brian Reed “Christopher Alesevich，10 岁。”
So the other thing that I wanted to share with you that I find entertaining about these is the advice and the lesson of so many of these is so specific that I find it incredibly, incredibly humorous, OK.
因此，我想与您分享的另一件事是我觉得这些内容很有趣，其中许多建议和教训是如此具体，以至于我觉得它非常非常幽默，好吧。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
And even when I remember talking to Chris about it, the lesson of this story was don't lean into scissors that are cutting a particularly taut piece of string because you could get poked in the eye.
甚至当我记得和克里斯谈论过这件事时，这个故事的教训就是不要用剪刀剪一根特别拉紧的绳子，因为你可能会被戳到眼睛。
[LAUGHS] Brian Reed That's what he took away from the story.
[笑]布莱恩·里德 这就是他从这个故事中得到的收获。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
And so they're all like that?
那么他们都是这样的吗？
Brian Reed A lot of them are.
布莱恩·里德 他们中的很多人都是。
Can I read you this one?
我可以给你读这一篇吗？
Sure.
当然。
Brian Reed So this one is in the chapter called-- the chapters are amazing, by the way.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）所以这一章位于名为——顺便说一句，这些章节令人惊叹的章节中。
There's many, many chapters.
有很多很多章节。
Amazing like what?
惊人的像什么？
Like what are the different chapters?
比如不同的章节是什么？
What are they--
他们是什么——
There's just such a variety.
就有这么多种。
It makes you realize how dangerous of a place the world is.
它让你意识到这个世界是多么危险。
You've got axes, bees, bicycles, burns, camping, cars, cuts, dogs, doors, drinking, electricity, escalator.
你有斧头、蜜蜂、自行车、烧伤、露营、汽车、切口、狗、门、饮料、电力、自动扶梯。
All right, this one's my favorite.
好吧，这个是我最喜欢的。
You want to guess what the name of this chapter is?
你想猜猜这一章的名字是什么吗？
Wait, hold on.
等等，坚持住。
Not staying far enough from the edge of a cliff?
距离悬崖边缘还不够远吗？
No, sadly.
不，可悲的是。
This chapter's called "Nose." Simply.
本章名为“鼻子”。简单地。
Just straight up "Nose." Brian Reed "Nose." [LAUGHS] As in N-O-S-E.
只是直接“鼻子”。布莱恩·里德《鼻子》。 [笑]就像 N-O-S-E 一样。
[LAUGHS] I got it.
[笑]我明白了。
Brian Reed [LAUGHS] All right.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）[笑]好吧。
The title of this one is "No One is Laughing."
这一篇的标题是《没有人在笑》。
[SIGHS] So this one's written by a 12-year-old named Dan Strang.
[叹气]所以这篇文章是由一个名叫丹·斯特朗 (Dan Strang) 的 12 岁男孩写的。
It's actually written in the third person-- which is interesting, it's an interesting take about another child.
它实际上是用第三人称写的——这很有趣，这是对另一个孩子的有趣看法。
"When Karen was three, she was just trying to show off for two other cousins when they were watching TV.
“凯伦三岁时，当另外两个表兄弟看电视时，她只是想向他们炫耀。
She took the leftover kernels from the bottom of the bowl of popcorn and stuck two kernels up her small nostrils.
她从爆米花碗底取出剩下的玉米粒，将两粒玉米粒塞进她的小鼻孔里。
She kept them up there for about a minute and got a couple laughs.
她把它们放在那里大约一分钟，引起了一些笑声。
Then she tried to take them out.
然后她试图把它们拿出来。
She tried so hard her nostrils were as red as blood.
她用尽全力，鼻孔都红得像血一样。
In the emergency room, they had no idea how she got them in there.
在急诊室里，他们不知道她是怎么把他们弄进去的。
The doctors decided to stick the tweezers up her nose while she was pushing with her index fingers from the top to bottom.
医生决定将镊子插入她的鼻子，同时用食指从上到下推动。
Finally, the kernels popped out.
最后，果仁就出来了。
I dearly suggest that you never stick popcorn kernels up your nose to be funny, because it's a serious accident."
我强烈建议你永远不要为了搞笑而把爆米花粒塞进鼻子里，因为这是一场严重的事故。”
So what do you like about that one so much?
那么你这么喜欢那个人的什么呢？
Again, I just love the specificity of it.
再说一次，我只是喜欢它的特殊性。
Like, if I were to go through that or witness it as an adult, if I were to try and tell someone to watch out, I'd been there, you don't want to go through what I went through, I might say, don't stick foreign objects up your nose of any kind.
就像，如果我作为一个成年人经历过这一切或目睹它，如果我试图告诉别人要小心，我就在那里，你不想经历我所经历的事情，我可能会说，不要将任何异物塞进你的鼻子。
Yeah.
是的。
Brian Reed But the lesson that this 12-year-old draws is don't stick popcorn kernels up your nose to be funny.
布莱恩·里德 (Brian Reed) 但这个 12 岁的孩子吸取的教训是，不要把爆米花粒塞进鼻子里来搞笑。
OK.
好的。
So kids do not generalize.
所以孩子们不要一概而论。
That is what I've learned from this so far.
到目前为止，这就是我从中学到的东西。
Yeah, apparently not.
是的，显然不是。
And actually, I talked to my friend Christopher about what happened to him.
事实上，我和我的朋友克里斯托弗谈论了发生在他身上的事情。
And we were reading through the book together.
我们一起读这本书。
And his mom actually happened to be there too, 'cause she was visiting him.
他的妈妈实际上也在那里，因为她正在探望他。
And she was a first grade teacher for many, many years before she retired.
在退休之前，她担任了很多年的一年级老师。
Oh.
哦。
Brian Reed And she totally confirmed this.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）她完全证实了这一点。
She was like, yeah.
她说，是的。
This is something I dealt with day in, day out.
这是我日复一日处理的事情。
And actually, they told me a story that I did not know in all the years I've known him that illustrates this perfectly.
事实上，他们给我讲了一个我认识他这么多年以来都不知道的故事，它完美地说明了这一点。
There is apparently a sequel to the earlier scissors story.
显然早期的剪刀故事有续集。
Brian, as his mother, I'd like to interject that he's learned not to put his eyes near sharp things.
布莱恩，作为他的母亲，我想插一句，他已经学会了不要让眼睛靠近锋利的东西。
But he never learned not to put his fingers near sharp things.
但他从来没有学会不要将手指放在锋利的东西附近。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
So I guess two years after he got hospitalized for scissors, he was at school.
所以我猜他因剪刀住院两年后，他正在上学。
The school day was ending.
学校的一天结束了。
He was waiting for the bus with kids in his class.
他正在和班上的孩子们一起等公共汽车。
And somehow he and this girl were playing, and there was a pair of scissors around.
不知怎的，他和这个女孩正在玩耍，周围有一把剪刀。
He was very insistent that they were safety scissors, like the kind of plasticky, rounded-edge ones or whatever.
他非常坚持说它们是安全剪刀，就像那种塑料的、圆边的剪刀之类的。
Right.
正确的。
Sure.
当然。
Brian Reed And somehow they were playing with these.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）不知怎的，他们正在玩这些。
And the question of are these dangerous or not came up.
这些是否危险的问题就出现了。
I looked at these special scissors, and they were very dull.
我看了看这些特殊的剪刀，它们很钝。
They had rounded tips, and so they were not sharp, as where my previous lesson was that sharp scissors are dangerous.
它们的尖端是圆形的，所以它们并不锋利，就像我之前的教训是锋利的剪刀是危险的。
And so therefore, not-sharp scissors are not dangerous.
因此，不锋利的剪刀并不危险。
How old were you?
你当时几岁？
Christopher Alesevich So this was second grade.
Christopher Alesevich 那是二年级。
I must have been--
我一定是——
You were probably seven.
你当时大概七岁。
But you're a January birthday, so--
但你是一月生日，所以——
So not only was I so sure that scissors that didn't look sharp were not dangerous, but then I had to prove to another person my knowledge of this matter and to show off that hey, you're wrong.
所以我不仅确信看起来不锋利的剪刀并不危险，而且我还必须向另一个人证明我对这件事的了解，并炫耀嘿，你错了。
These scissors are not dangerous.
这些剪刀并不危险。
It's amazing that the very serious lesson you'd been taught by being hospitalized a couple years earlier, the lesson you'd been taught to specifically watch yourself around scissors was the thing that inspired you to be extra braggadocious--
令人惊讶的是，几年前你住院时所学到的非常严肃的教训，你所学到的要特别注意自己周围剪刀的教训，却激发了你格外吹牛——
Confident.
有信心。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Brian Reed --and careless around scissors.
布莱恩·里德（Brian Reed）——对剪刀不小心。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Christopher Alesevich So what I did, I stuck out my hand and my finger, and I was like, here cut.
Christopher Alesevich 所以我做了什么，我伸出了我的手和手指，我就像，这里切了。
It's not going to cut.
它不会被削减。
[LAUGHS] God.
[笑]上帝。
Christopher Alesevich Lo and behold, it cut my finger.
Christopher Alesevich 瞧，它割伤了我的手指。
I was like, "oh, crap!"
我当时想，“哦，糟糕！”
So I guess his parents had to get called by the principal.
所以我猜他的父母必须接到校长的电话。
He couldn't go home on the bus 'cause he was bleeding quite profusely.
他无法乘公共汽车回家，因为他失血过多。
Again, his parents had to be told, "Christopher has had an incident with scissors." [LAUGHS]
再次，他的父母必须被告知：“克里斯托弗与剪刀发生了冲突。” [笑]
He was fine.
他很好。
But you know.
但你知道。
Brian Reed So what was the lesson of that accident?
布莱恩·里德 那次事故的教训是什么？
So the lesson of that accident is that all scissors are sharp, regardless of whether they look sharp or not.
所以那次事故的教训是，所有的剪刀都是锋利的，不管它们看起来是否锋利。
[LAUGHS] Christopher Alesevich And actually I did internalize that lesson.
[笑] Christopher Alesevich 事实上，我确实内化了这一课。
And I'd like to point out, there has not been a third scissors incident.
我想指出的是，目前还没有发生第三次剪刀事件。
Mhm.
嗯。
Christopher Alesevich Yeah.
克里斯托弗·阿列塞维奇 是的。
Lesson learned there.
那里学到了教训。
Of course.
当然。
Any time.
任何时间。
Ira Glass Always a fine report.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）总是一份不错的报告。
Brian Reed is the senior producer of our program.
布莱恩·里德是我们节目的高级制作人。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
鸣谢 Ira Glass 我们今天的节目由 Stephanie Foo、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our editor is Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Julie Snyder's our editorial consultant.
朱莉·斯奈德是我们的编辑顾问。
Our technical director is Matt Tierney.
我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。
Production help from Lyra Smith.
Lyra Smith 提供制作帮助。
Special thanks today to Shane Fletcher.
今天特别感谢肖恩·弗莱彻。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们计划的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
You know, summer is coming up, and he is so excited for the Tilt-A-Whirl and fried dough and the flying swings.
你知道，夏天即将来临，他对旋转倾斜、炸面团和秋千感到非常兴奋。
I was a carnival baby.
我是一个狂欢节的婴儿。
Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。