583: It’ll Make Sense When You’re Older - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #583 | June 24, 2022 583: It’ll Make Sense When You’re Older Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 583 集 | 2022 年 6 月 24 日 583：当你年纪大了，它就会有意义 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Chana Joffe-Walt From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Chana Joffe-Walt，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt sitting in for Ira Glass this week.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)，本周代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
In today's show, we've got stories of people at a moment of understanding something they could not have grasped before when they were younger-- stories from childhood, 10 years old, all the way up through old age, 79.
在今天的节目中，我们讲述了人们在某个时刻理解了他们年轻时无法理解的事情的故事——从童年、10 岁，一直到 79 岁的老年。
So let's start at the beginning.
那么让我们从头开始吧。
I should say that the entire premise of this show, the idea that there are certain things that do not make sense when you're young, it is flat out offensive to the people at the beginning of our story.
我应该说，这个节目的整个前提，即当你年轻时，有些事情是没有意义的，这对我们故事开头的人们来说是完全冒犯的。
Have you guys ever heard the phrase, you'll understand this when you're older?
大家有没有听过这句话，等你长大了就会明白了？
Or this will make sense--
或者这会有意义——
Oh, my gosh.
哦，天哪。
Samantha Yes.
萨曼莎 是的。
A bunch of times.
好几次了。
I'm sitting with a half dozen sixth graders at a table in their middle school.
我和六名六年级学生坐在他们中学的一张桌子旁。
And a small guy with glasses and a comic book name Bernard Arthur keeps shaking his head.
一个戴着眼镜、名叫伯纳德·亚瑟（Bernard Arthur）的漫画小个子不停地摇头。
I'm at the point where I'm used to it now, you know?
我现在已经习惯了，你知道吗？
Because they say it lots of times.
因为他们说过很多次了。
And it's not only from my mom.
这不仅来自我妈妈。
It's from her friends, from adults, and from everybody.
这是来自她的朋友，来自成年人，来自每个人。
So I'm just really sick of it.
所以我真的厌倦了。
Be completely honest.
完全诚实。
Bernard I know-- we all know mostly everything about life.
伯纳德，我知道——我们都知道生活中的一切。
Wait, so you don't believe that phrase at all?
等等，所以你根本不相信这句话？
It's not like we know everything, but we know mostly what adults think we don't know.
我们并不是什么都知道，但我们知道的大多是成年人认为我们不知道的事情。
Bernard just feels like that stuff you think I'm not ready for?
伯纳德只是觉得你认为我还没有准备好？
I am.
我是。
Let's talk.
我们来谈谈吧。
At least three kids at the table raise a finger and politely say, "um, I'd like to add to that." They've all got examples of questions they asked recently that were met with some version of, you'll understand later.
桌上至少有三个孩子举起一根手指，礼貌地说：“嗯，我想补充一点。”他们都有最近提出的问题的示例，这些问题都遇到了某种版本，稍后您就会明白。
A brief selection, why do you smoke?
简短的选择，你为什么吸烟？
Why did she commit suicide?
她为何自杀？
Why do I have to go to school?
为什么我必须去学校？
What does it mean to hit puberty?
进入青春期意味着什么？
Who is puberty?
谁是青春期？
And why would you hit her?
还有你为什么要打她？
How do you say butt hole in Spanish?
屁股洞 这个在 西班牙语 里怎么说？
It's a pretty broad range, right?
这是一个相当广泛的范围，对吧？
A girl named Samantha Boome says sometimes you don't even have to ask a question to be shut down with the "you'll understand later," even if it's not those exact words.
一位名叫萨曼莎·布姆 (Samantha Boome) 的女孩说，有时你甚至不需要问一个问题，就可以用“你稍后会明白”来结束语，即使这不是确切的词。
Like the other night, she came into the kitchen.
和那天晚上一样，她走进厨房。
And her mom and grandpa were talking in loud voices, maybe they were fighting.
而她的妈妈和爷爷正在大声说话，也许他们在吵架。
And I was like, "hey, can I get the cookie jar to get some cookies?" And they're like, "no. You can't.
我当时想，“嘿，我可以拿饼干罐来买一些饼干吗？”他们就像，“不。你不能。
You'll learn when you get older."
等你老了你就会学会的。”
She's saying, you'll learn when you get older.
她说，等你长大了，你就会明白。
I'm like, but I was just asking for a cookie.
我想，但我只是要一块饼干。
She's like, "I'm not in the mood right now.
她说：“我现在没心情。
I'm talking to your grandfather." I'm like, "oh, my god.
我正在和你爷爷说话。”我就像，“哦，天啊。
But, Mom, chill out." And then I had to walk out of the room.
不过，妈妈，你冷静一点。”然后我不得不走出房间。
I'm like, sheesh.
我就像，谢什。
Now I can't get a cookie.
现在我拿不到饼干了。
I think to kids, this phrase can feel both dismissive and like we, the adults, are abdicating our responsibility, giving up on even trying.
我认为对于孩子们来说，这句话可能会让人感到轻蔑，就像我们成年人放弃了我们的责任，甚至放弃了尝试。
Like Jasper Pena says, when he asks what seems like a pretty simple question, sometimes grown-ups say--
就像贾斯珀·佩纳（Jasper Pena）所说，当他问一个看似非常简单的问题时，有时大人会说——
Probably only God knows the answer.
恐怕只有上帝知道答案。
I don't know the answer, but I know that God knows it.
我不知道答案，但我知道上帝知道。
And I get frustrated when they say that.
当他们这么说时，我感到很沮丧。
Why?
为什么？
Jasper Because you're like, I know that they know the answers.
贾斯珀：因为你就像，我知道他们知道答案。
And something's telling me they know the answers.
有些东西告诉我他们知道答案。
You can't have a conv-- you can, but you can't like physically have a conversation with him and ask him the question.
你不能与他进行交谈——你可以，但你不能与他进行面对面的交谈并问他问题。
That's like--
这就像——
With God?
与神？
Samantha Yeah.
萨曼莎 是的。
It's better if you ask an actual person because they will actually give you an answer because they know the people, instead of God.
如果你问一个真实的人会更好，因为他们实际上会给你答案，因为他们认识人，而不是神。
She wants an actual person.
她想要一个真实的人。
These kids want answers.
这些孩子想要答案。
Well, today on our show, we have answers.
好吧，今天在我们的节目中，我们找到了答案。
Or rather, we have people arriving at the answers themselves, with or without the help of others.
或者更确切地说，我们让人们自己找到答案，无论是否有其他人的帮助。
People looking ahead in time for clues of what's to come, and looking back at the remarkable facts that they somehow missed.
人们及时向前看，寻找即将发生的事情的线索，并回顾他们不知何故错过的非凡事实。
We're going to travel from childhood on up, stopping at all the points where people do understand, finally.
我们将从童年开始旅行，最终在人们真正理解的所有地方停下来。
We've got Sasheer Zamata from Saturday Night Live .
我们请来了《周六夜现场》的 Sasheer Zamata。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One, Adolescence.
第一幕，青春期。
When the biggest thing that does not make sense is often just the immediate future and how you're going to get through it.
当最没有意义的事情往往只是眼前的未来以及你将如何度过它时。
Here's Hillary Frank.
这是希拉里·弗兰克。
There's this kid in my town.
我镇上有一个这样的孩子。
We'll call him Ben.
我们就叫他本吧。
A few years ago, Ben was starting high school, and he turned 15.
几年前，本开始上高中，当时他已经 15 岁了。
He asked his parents if he could throw a party.
他问父母是否可以举办一个聚会。
They said yes, but if we see any alcohol, we're shutting it down.
他们说可以，但如果我们看到任何酒精，我们就会将其关闭。
Ben's like, fine.
本就像，很好。
The day of the party he takes a walk with his five closest guy friends.
聚会那天，他和五个最亲密的男性朋友一起散步。
They're sort of his planning committee.
他们是他的计划委员会。
They tell him they're going to text invites to, like, 30 people.
他们告诉他，他们将向大约 30 个人发送邀请短信。
Mostly, they're other geeky guy friends.
大多数情况下，他们是其他极客朋友。
Also, their friends tell him, we're going to invite some popular girls.
另外，他们的朋友告诉他，我们要邀请一些受欢迎的女孩。
They were basically like, you'll be the man for a week if you do this.
他们基本上就像，如果你这样做，你将成为一个星期的男人。
They all go back to Ben's house.
他们都回到本家。
And the popular girls, they're actually the first to show up.
而那些受欢迎的女孩，其实是最先出现的。
And then half an hour in, I make the biggest mistake of my life up to this point when one of the girls, one of the "popular," quote, unquote, girls asked me what my address was.
半小时后，我犯了迄今为止我一生中最大的错误，其中一位女孩，一位“受欢迎”的女孩问我的地址是什么。
And in my mind-- in my freshman mind-- they were getting picked up.
在我的脑海里——在我新生的脑海里——他们正在被接受。
They were already getting picked up, like they were telling their parents to come get them.
他们已经被接走了，就像他们告诉父母来接他们一样。
Because that's what asking for an address meant to me at this time, like, completely innocent thing.
因为这就是现在索要地址对我来说的意义，完全是无辜的事情。
Four or five more girls asked for Ben's address.
还有四五个女孩询问本的地址。
Of course, these kids are not calling their rides.
当然，这些孩子并没有叫他们的游乐设施。
They're texting his address to all their friends.
他们正在把他的地址发短信给所有的朋友。
So the party slowly starts growing.
所以这个党慢慢开始壮大。
And then a bunch of older kids show up.
然后一群年龄较大的孩子出现了。
Then Ben hears banging outside on his garage door.
然后本听到外面有敲车库门的声音。
Suddenly, there's a bunch of upperclassman everywhere.
突然，到处都是一群高年级学生。
They were coming up from behind, in the flanks, and the front.
他们从后面、侧翼和前面进攻。
And people were looking in the bushes and crawling to all the different windows, looking in, seeing who's in there.
人们在灌木丛中寻找，爬到所有不同的窗户，往里看，看看里面有谁。
I'd say about half of them are people I know.
我想说其中大约一半是我认识的人。
But it's the people I know that I would never want them to come.
但我永远不希望他们来我认识的人。
And it's kids that bullied me in middle school and elementary school.
而且在中学和小学时，都是孩子们欺负我。
And they're calling people inside trying to get in through the back.
他们打电话给里面的人试图从后面进去。
This thing that was happening to Ben, it's straight out of every memorable teen party movie.
发生在本身上的这件事，就像每一部令人难忘的青少年派对电影中的场景一样。
His little birthday celebration was crashed.
他的小型生日庆祝活动被破坏了。
But what was happening here is different from those movies in one key way, a way that seems to be specific to my town and towns nearby.
但这里发生的事情在一个关键方面与那些电影不同，这种方式似乎是我的城镇和附近城镇特有的。
Upperclassman conspire to target freshman parties, freshman like Ben.
高年级学生密谋以新生聚会为目标，像本这样的新生。
And at these parties, the parents are home.
在这些聚会上，父母都在家。
The older kids, though, they are not deterred by parents.
不过，年龄较大的孩子并不会被父母吓倒。
Parents can be yelling at them to get off their lawn, and the kids will pretend to go, but really they are sneaking in around back.
父母可能会对他们大喊大叫，让他们离开草坪，孩子们会假装离开，但实际上他们是在偷偷溜到后面。
And once they get in, they tell the younger kids, this is our party now.
一旦他们进来，他们就会告诉年幼的孩子，现在这是我们的聚会。
This is so common in my town that parents are calling it parasiting.
这在我的镇上很常见，父母们称之为寄生虫。
They try to deal with it themselves.
他们尝试自己解决这个问题。
They try not to call the cops.
他们尽量不报警。
They don't want their kids to be humiliated, but it can get overwhelming.
他们不希望自己的孩子受到羞辱，但这可能会让人难以承受。
One mom I talked to got a call from a friend while this was going on at her house.
我采访过的一位妈妈在她家发生这种情况时接到了朋友的电话。
The friend warned her, they'll find a way around you.
朋友警告她，他们会想办法绕过你的。
You can't stop them.
你无法阻止他们。
It's like a military raid.
这就像一次军事袭击。
It's like D-Day.
这就像诺曼底登陆日。
It's like any sort of multifaceted attack where the base is just completely up for grabs and anything goes.
这就像任何形式的多方面攻击一样，基地完全可供争夺，任何事情都会发生。
And all morals are just thrown out the window completely.
所有的道德都被完全抛到了九霄云外。
The party has more than doubled in size.
该党的规模扩大了一倍多。
There are now 70 kids at Ben's house.
Ben 家里现在有 70 个孩子。
His mom's on the lawn, calling out kids by name and threatening to tell their parents that they were here.
他的妈妈在草坪上喊着孩子们的名字，并威胁要告诉他们的父母他们在这里。
His dad is getting into it with some kid who's trying to push his way inside the house.
他的父亲正与一个试图闯入屋内的孩子发生冲突。
Ben looks around.
本环顾四周。
He's surrounded by strangers-- older strangers.
他周围都是陌生人——年长的陌生人。
They're chugging beer.
他们正在喝啤酒。
They're on their phones explaining to their friends the best method of breaking into the house.
他们正在打电话向朋友解释闯入房子的最佳方法。
Ben's standing right next to them as they're doing this.
当他们这样做时，本就站在他们旁边。
Someone turns up the music, and a corner of the basement suddenly becomes a dance floor.
有人把音乐调大，地下室的一角突然变成了舞池。
The toilet is full of beer cans.
厕所里堆满了啤酒罐。
There is this girl who's chugging something.
有一个女孩正在咕噜咕噜地吃东西。
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
I told her, "can you please not do this?" And she looked at me and in the most rude, sarcastic voice said to me, "like, thanks for the hospitality," and turned around and just trudged back in a different direction.
我告诉她：“你能不能别这样做？”她看着我，用最粗鲁、讽刺的声音对我说：“谢谢你的盛情款待”，然后转身朝另一个方向艰难地走回来。
After about an hour, kids started calling their friends telling them to not bother coming in.
大约一个小时后，孩子们开始打电话给他们的朋友，告诉他们不要进来。
This party was lame.
这个聚会很蹩脚。
And as quickly as they came, they left.
他们来得快，走得也快。
I was freaking out the entire time.
我一直都吓坏了。
I'm still freaking out about it just thinking about it.
我现在想想还是很害怕。
It was horrible.
太可怕了。
It was pretty scarring.
伤痕累累。
For the rest of Ben's freshman year, he was terrified of older kids.
在本大一剩下的时间里，他一直害怕年龄较大的孩子。
He'd go to parties, but he hated when they'd get blown up.
他会去参加聚会，但他讨厌聚会被炸毁。
He hated when the older kids would take their control away.
他讨厌大孩子们夺走他们的控制权。
But Ben grew up.
但本长大了。
He's a senior now.
他现在已经是高年级学生了。
And he says--
他说——
Somewhere between sophomore and junior year, I just decided I was completely comfortable with showing up with my friends to random people's houses and treating them with the same lack of respect that I was treated with when I was in ninth grade because that's what you do.
在大二和大三之间的某个时候，我刚刚决定，我完全可以放心地和我的朋友一起出现在随机的人家中，并像我九年级时一样缺乏尊重地对待他们，因为这就是你所做的。
He started getting those texts saying there's a party happening at so-and-so's and house.
他开始收到这些短信，说某某人家里正在举办聚会。
Let's blow it up.
让我们把它炸掉吧。
He started getting invited more and more till eventually the text would just be an address, nothing else.
他开始受到越来越多的邀请，直到最终短信只是一个地址，没有其他任何东西。
But he'd know what it meant.
但他会知道这意味着什么。
This sound comes from a video that Ben sent me that one of his friends shot at a party.
这个声音来自本发给我的一段视频，是他的一个朋友在聚会上拍摄的。
All the (PRETENDING TO YELL) "yo's" and "look at that"-- it's all just like you're kind of in awe where you've ended up in that moment.
所有（假装大喊）“哟”和“看看那个”——这一切就像你对那一刻的结束感到有点敬畏。
"That's that kid from my biology class.
“那是我生物课上的那个孩子。
Like, oh, my god.
就像，哦，天哪。
Come over here."
过来一下吧。”
That's one of the things Ben told me he loves about crashing freshman parties.
本告诉我，这就是他喜欢参加新生聚会的原因之一。
You never know who's going to show up.
你永远不知道谁会出现。
It's like nobody's invited, so everybody's invited.
就像没有人被邀请一样，所以每个人都被邀请了。
Also, it's super convenient.
而且，超级方便。
There's always a party because you don't have to wait for your friend's parents to go out of town.
总是有聚会，因为您不必等待朋友的父母出城。
And Ben says it's thrilling, what it takes to get into the house -- the Black Ops -- getting intel from your friends inside about which entryways are guarded and which are clear.
本说，进入这所房子需要什么——黑色行动——从里面的朋友那里得到关于哪些入口被守卫、哪些入口畅通的情报，这真是令人兴奋。
But yes, it is like a stealth mission a lot of the times, seeking out which route is the most efficient form of entry.
但是，是的，很多时候这就像一个秘密任务，寻找哪条路线是最有效的进入方式。
Next time, maybe I'll bring a notepad and sketch out my ideas or draw a blueprint of the house because that's basically what we're doing.
下次，也许我会带一个记事本，勾勒出我的想法，或者画出房子的蓝图，因为这基本上就是我们正在做的事情。
And it feels OK to you, even though that happened to you when you were a freshman?
你感觉还不错，即使你大一的时候也发生过这种事？
Well, let me put it this way.
好吧，让我这样说。
And this is kind of not the best mentality.
这并不是最好的心态。
But if I don't show up, nothing is going to change.
但如果我不出现，一切都不会改变。
So I'm going to show up like everyone else because me not going isn't going to stop anything from happening.
所以我会像其他人一样出现，因为我不去并不能阻止任何事情的发生。
Well, in reality, I never pictured myself as one of those kids.
嗯，事实上，我从来没有把自己想象成那些孩子中的一员。
We would always be like, wow, those kids are such jerks.
我们总是会说，哇，那些孩子真是混蛋。
We'll never be like them.
我们永远不会像他们一样。
But once you're older, you just-- your mindset turns into, I am one of the older kids.
但一旦你长大了，你的心态就会变成，我是年龄较大的孩子之一。
I have power over the younger kids.
我对年幼的孩子有权力。
And that is a new form of intimidation.
这是一种新形式的恐吓。
Ben spent two hours at my house sitting on my couch answering my questions.
本在我家花了两个小时坐在沙发上回答我的问题。
It all seemed to be getting a little too real for him.
这一切对他来说似乎有点太真实了。
He was struggling to make sense of the boy he'd been and the man he'd become.
他正在努力理解自己曾经是一个男孩，还是现在成为了一个男人。
By the end, he was lying down, rubbing his head.
到最后，他就躺了下来，揉着头。
Wow, I'm really just-- I'm really just conflicting myself everywhere.
哇，我真的只是——我真的到处都在自相矛盾。
Ben started philosophizing, talking about all the ways you change so quickly during those years in high school.
本开始进行哲学思考，谈论高中那些年你发生的如此迅速的变化。
He told me there are three phases when it comes to blowing up parties.
他告诉我，炸毁派对分为三个阶段。
Phase one is when you get blown up.
第一阶段是你被炸毁的时候。
You're an innocent, naive little freshman.
你是一个天真的、天真的小新生。
Phase two, you're doing the blowing up.
第二阶段，你正在爆炸。
And it is deliciously sadistic.
这是一种美妙的虐待狂。
Phase three, you're kind of over it.
第三阶段，你已经结束了。
And I realized that that's just like the circle of life in high school.
我意识到这就像高中的生活圈子一样。
It's like at a certain point you reach a sort of wise, old sage status because I guess we're getting more mature now.
就像在某个时刻你达到了一种明智的、古老的圣人状态，因为我想我们现在变得更加成熟了。
But there is a gap between your immaturity and your maturity where you're still immature but you think you aren't.
但你的不成熟和你的成熟之间存在着差距，你仍然不成熟，但你认为自己不成熟。
So you take the authority, and you say, I have the right to show up at this person's house because I'm old.
所以你掌握了权力，你说，我有权出现在这个人家里，因为我老了。
And I'm 16 years old.
我今年16岁了。
And I'm going to be applying to college soon.
我很快就要申请大学了。
And I grew a mustache a few days ago.
几天前我留了胡子。
What would you say now to your freshman self?
现在你想对大一的自己说什么？
I would say, don't let other people decide who's going to come to your house.
我想说，不要让其他人决定谁会来你家。
Or I would say, don't have a party ever.
或者我会说，永远不要举办派对。
Ben's got a few months left in his senior year.
本大四还剩下几个月的时间。
He's more choosy about parties these days, but he says he'll still go because he's got to do this while he still can.
这些天他对聚会更加挑剔，但他说他仍然会去，因为他必须趁他还可以的时候这样做。
In the fall, he'll start college.
秋天，他将开始上大学。
And he's pretty sure the parties there will be more sophisticated.
他非常确定那里的聚会会更加复杂。
And by that, I mean he won't have to break and enter.
我的意思是他不必破门而入。
He'll walk through the front door like a real grown-up.
他会像一个真正的成年人一样走进前门。
Hillary Frank is host of the wonderful parenting podcast The Longest Shortest Time .
希拉里·弗兰克是精彩的育儿播客《最长最短时间》的主持人。
It's on the Earwolf network.
它位于 Earwolf 网络上。
longestshortesttime.com.
最长最短时间.com。
Act Two, Grown.
第二幕，成长。
Sasheer Zamata is a comedian.
萨希尔·扎马塔 (Sasheer Zamata) 是一位喜剧演员。
She's on Saturday Night Live .
她参加了《周六夜现场》。
She does a lot of her own stand-up.
她自己做很多单口相声。
And like a lot of comics, Sasheer uses the stage to rehash real things that happened to her and try to make sense of them.
和许多漫画一样，萨希尔利用舞台重述发生在她身上的真实事情，并试图理解它们。
But recently, Sasheer felt like there was more to figure out about the stuff she was saying on stage.
但最近，萨希尔觉得她在舞台上所说的话还有更多需要弄清楚的地方。
A warning-- the thing that kicked this off for her involves a nasty word, a racial slur.
一个警告——对她来说，引发这一切的事情涉及一个令人讨厌的词，一个种族诽谤。
And there is no way for her to tell what happened without saying it a bunch of times.
如果不说很多次，她就无法讲述发生的事情。
Sasheer's story about this starts with her on stage.
萨希尔的故事从她在舞台上开始。
I got called the n-word once in my life, thankfully.
谢天谢地，我一生中被称为“黑鬼”一次。
And it happened in such a stereotypical way, you won't believe it.
它以如此刻板的方式发生，你不会相信。
I was walking down the street in Cocoa Beach, Florida.
我正走在佛罗里达州可可海滩的街道上。
Of course, it happened in Florida.
当然，这发生在佛罗里达州。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] And I was walking with another friend who's also a black woman.
[观众笑声] 我和另一位朋友一起散步，她也是一位黑人女性。
And this dirty pickup truck comes barreling down the road towards us.
这辆脏兮兮的皮卡车沿着道路向我们驶来。
And it had a Confederate flag vanity plate.
它有一个南部邦联旗帜的梳妆台。
And this very red-faced man-- that's the politically correct way to say it.
这个红脸男人——这是政治正确的说法。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] A very red-faced man leans his face out the window.
[观众笑声] 一个红着脸的男人把脸探出窗外。
And he has these reflector sunglasses that strap to your head.
他还戴着反光太阳镜，可以绑在你的头上。
And he yells at us.
他对我们大喊大叫。
And he goes, "y'all niggas need to take yo' black asses back to Africa." And keeps going.
他说：“你们这些黑鬼需要把你们这些黑驴带回非洲。”并继续前进。
And I was like, were we punked?
我当时就想，我们是不是被朋克了？
He had all the things.
他拥有一切。
He had all the racist trappings.
他具有所有种族主义特征。
Like he did it on purpose.
就像他是故意的一样。
Like he went into a store and was like, "I need to look at as racist as I feel."
就像他走进一家商店一样，“我需要像我所感受到的那样看待种族主义。”
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] I've been telling a joke for a couple of years now.
[观众笑声] 我讲笑话已经有好几年了。
And it always gets a laugh.
而且总是会引起笑声。
But when it happened, it was really scary.
但当事情发生的时候，真的很可怕。
And it must have really shook me up because I did something I rarely do when I'm upset.
这一定让我很震惊，因为我做了一些我在心烦意乱时很少做的事情。
I called my mom.
我打电话给我妈妈。
And she actually found it funny.
她实际上觉得这很有趣。
[LAUGHTER] Sasheer Zamata You laughed at me.
[笑声] Sasheer Zamata 你嘲笑我。
I was crying.
我哭了。
And I called you from the car.
我在车里给你打电话。
And I was like, they called me a nigger.
我当时想，他们叫我黑鬼。
That's never happened to me.
这从来没有发生在我身上。
And you were like, please.
你说，拜托。
[LAUGHTER] Ivory Every day of the eighth grade I was a different flavor of nigger.
[笑声] 象牙色 八年级的每一天，我都是不同风格的黑鬼。
Nigger all day long.
整天都是黑鬼。
Nigger on the bus.
公交车上的黑鬼。
Nigger in the bathroom.
浴室里的黑鬼。
I was like 20 or 21.
我当时大概20或21岁。
That was the first I ever heard that or, like, it's ever been used to me.
这是我第一次听到这个，或者说，我已经习惯了。
It's at least nice that--
至少这样很好——
It took that long.
花了那么长时间。
Sasheer Zamata --it took that long,
Sasheer Zamata——花了那么长时间，
No, it does not feel good.
不，感觉不太好。
Up until that point, I hadn't really thought about the fact that my mom got called the n-word all the time when she was younger.
直到那时，我还没有真正考虑过我妈妈年轻时一直被称为“黑鬼”的事实。
But my mom would often drop little tidbits of information like that.
但我妈妈经常会透露一些类似的信息。
And like most kids, I ignored them because she's my mom.
和大多数孩子一样，我忽视了他们，因为她是我的妈妈。
And her life before being my mom didn't really concern me.
她在成为我妈妈之前的生活并不真正关心我。
But I did notice some of her patterns when I was a kid.
但当我还是个孩子的时候，我确实注意到了她的一些模式。
There are little things that I remember from my childhood.
小时候的一些小事让我记忆犹新。
Like I remember she does not love white people.
我记得她不喜欢白人。
I mean, I'm sure she'd like you guys if she met you.
我的意思是，我确信如果她见到你们，她一定会喜欢你们。
You guys are fine.
你们都很好。
But it would come out in little ways.
但它会以一些小方式显现出来。
It wouldn't be crazy overt, but I remember little instances happening when I was younger.
这不会是公开的疯狂，但我记得我年轻时发生过一些小事。
Like there was one time we were in the car.
就像有一次我们在车里一样。
She was driving, and I was in the passenger seat.
她开车，我坐在副驾驶座上。
And she stopped to let this old, white couple to pass in front of her.
她停下来，让这对白人老夫妇从她面前经过。
And she lets out this deep sigh like, ehh, white people.
她像白人一样发出深深的叹息。
And I was like, uhh.
我当时想，呃。
They're not even talking to us right now.
他们现在甚至不和我们说话。
What's the issue?
有什么问题吗？
And she goes, memories.
她走了，回忆。
And that's where the conversation stopped.
谈话就到此为止。
The conversation stopped there because she never went into those memories.
谈话就此停止，因为她从未深入过那些记忆。
And I also never asked about them.
我也从未问过他们。
I just assumed that my mom said things like that because she was old-school or close-minded.
我只是认为我妈妈之所以这么说是因为她很守旧或者思想封闭。
But I'm getting older.
但我年纪越来越大了。
And I'm thinking about race more.
我更多地考虑种族问题。
I'm talking about it more in my act.
我在我的表演中更多地谈论它。
And I thought, I should talk to my mom about this stuff.
我想，我应该和我妈妈谈谈这件事。
Why does she hate white people?
她为什么讨厌白人？
Until a few months ago, I knew very little about what she went through.
直到几个月前，我对她经历的事情还知之甚少。
I knew that in the '60s, my mom became one of the first black students to integrate a white junior high school in Forrest City, Arkansas.
我知道，在 60 年代，我妈妈成为阿肯色州福雷斯特市第一批融入白人初中的黑人学生之一。
It was a big deal.
这是一件大事。
She was part of history.
她是历史的一部分。
And that's something I figured she'd be proud of.
我认为这是她会感到自豪的事情。
No, I didn't feel like it was a good thing.
不，我不觉得这是一件好事。
We never had a choice in the matter.
我们在这件事上从来没有选择。
When she says "we," she means her and her siblings.
当她说“我们”时，她指的是她和她的兄弟姐妹。
It was her mom who had the choice.
有选择权的是她的妈妈。
I didn't know it was an option for families, that they got to choose whether they'd desegregate schools.
我不知道这是家庭的一个选择，他们可以选择是否废除学校种族隔离。
I just thought some law was passed, and everyone agreed to go for it.
我只是以为通过了一些法律，每个人都同意这样做。
But my grandmother basically forced my mom and several of her siblings to join the civil rights movement as pre-teens and go to a school where they weren't wanted.
但我的祖母基本上强迫我的母亲和她的几个兄弟姐妹在十几岁时加入民权运动，并去一所不受欢迎的学校。
She had said that the reason that she wanted her kids to go to the white school was that she did not want her children to be afraid of white people.
她曾说过，她之所以希望孩子去白人学校，是因为她不想让孩子害怕白人。
But I'm thinking, that's your problem.
但我想，这就是你的问题。
You're afraid of white people.
你害怕白人。
We didn't get the opportunity to develop how we thought about it.
我们没有机会发展我们的想法。
Did you ever talk to your mom about stuff she went through?
你有没有和你妈妈谈论过她所经历的事情？
Do you know what she went through as a black woman in the South growing up?
你知道她作为一个南方黑人女性在成长过程中经历了什么吗？
She was very close-mouthed.
她的嘴巴非常密。
So no, she wouldn't talk about it.
所以不，她不会谈论这件事。
Did you ever ask?
你有问过吗？
Ivory Yes.
象牙色 是的。
And you get told it ain't your business.
然后你会被告知这不关你的事。
It ain't your business?
这不关你的事吗？
Ivory It ain't your business.
象牙 这不关你的事。
I quote, "it ain't your business."
我引用，“这不关你的事。”
Seems like not talking about this particular subject is a tradition in our family.
似乎不谈论这个特定的话题是我们家庭的传统。
When I asked my mom why she never talked to me about this, she said she didn't want me to inherit her feelings about white people and she wanted me to come to my own conclusions.
当我问我妈妈为什么她从来没有和我谈论过这件事时，她说她不想让我继承她对白人的感情，她希望我得出自己的结论。
But the more questions I asked, especially about school, the more I felt like she didn't want to talk about it because it's still really painful to her.
但我问的问题越多，尤其是关于学校的问题，我就越觉得她不想谈论这件事，因为这对她来说仍然很痛苦。
So then you were just thrust into this all-white environment?
那么你就被推入了这个全白的环境中？
Yes.
是的。
Sasheer Zamata What was your first day like?
Sasheer Zamata 你第一天过得怎么样？
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
We get lots of instructions.
我们收到很多指示。
Do not argue with them.
不要与他们争论。
Do not antagonize them.
不要与他们对抗。
Hold your tongue.
管住你的舌头。
There was a lot of cussing at us while we were sitting on the bus.
当我们坐在公共汽车上时，有很多人对我们咒骂。
And Mama had told us, sit in the front of the bus so in case something happens, the bus driver is a witness.
妈妈告诉我们，坐在公共汽车的前面，这样万一发生什么事情，公共汽车司机就是目击者。
Well, he was just a witness to us getting cussed out every day.
好吧，他只是我们每天被骂的见证人。
He did nothing.
他什么也没做。
When we get off the bus, we stood outside the window of the office so if anything happened, then they could witness something happening to us.
当我们下车时，我们站在办公室的窗外，这样如果发生任何事情，他们就可以看到我们发生了什么事。
The person I remember standing in the window was Coach Collier, who later became the principal.
我记得站在窗口的人是科利尔教练，他后来成为了校长。
So he witnessed the kids throwing rocks at us.
所以他亲眼目睹了孩子们向我们扔石头。
I remember I had on a white blouse, a houndstooth vest, and a black skirt, and had my cute little white bobby socks.
我记得我穿着一件白色衬衫、一件千鸟格背心和一条黑色裙子，还有我可爱的白色短袜。
And I remember looking down at my legs and how the rocks had pelted them.
我记得低头看着我的腿，看看岩石是如何撞击它们的。
And one had broke blood.
其中一人流血了。
And some kid, I guess he pulled out a banana.
还有一个孩子，我猜他拿出了一根香蕉。
He threw a banana.
他扔了一根香蕉。
And it landed on my houndstooth vest.
它落在我的千鸟格背心上。
And I never got that stain out.
我从来没有把那个污渍去掉。
Being in junior high, no matter who you are, it's hard.
初中，无论你是谁，都很难。
It just sucks.
实在是太糟糕了。
People are mean.
人们很卑鄙。
And so I started asking her questions about this.
所以我开始问她关于这个的问题。
Like, what was it like?
就像，那是什么样子的？
And my mom said, think of it like Mean Girls, but they're racist.
我妈妈说，就像《贱女孩》一样，但她们是种族主义者。
And I was like, no.
我当时想，不。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] Like that's the analogy where I fully understood.
[观众笑声] 这就是我完全理解的类比。
I was like, oh, my god.
我当时想，哦，天啊。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] Sasheer Zamata Did you make any friends?
[观众笑声] Sasheer Zamata 你交到朋友了吗？
When I was in eighth grade, we sat in alphabetical order.
当我八年级时，我们按字母顺序坐在一起。
And so the girl in front of me, her last name started with S also.
所以我面前的这个女孩，她的姓也是S开头的。
So she was new to the school, too.
所以她也是这所学校的新人。
So we were both new.
所以我们都是新人。
And so--
所以——
This was a white girl?
这是一个白人女孩？
Ivory She was a white girl.
象牙 她是一个白人女孩。
I was the only black in the class.
我是班上唯一的黑人。
She became my friend.
她成了我的朋友。
And she was real smart.
她真的很聪明。
And I was real smart.
我真的很聪明。
But I guess we were too friendly.
但我想我们太友好了。
There was a class for kids that were extremely smart.
有一个专门为非常聪明的孩子开设的课程。
But I didn't think she was any smarter than I was.
但我并不认为她比我聪明。
But they pulled her out and put her in that class.
但他们把她拉了出来，并把她安排到了那个班。
And I will always believe they did that because we were too close.
我永远相信他们这样做是因为我们太接近了。
You could just see their face change if another white person came into the room or down the hall.
如果另一个白人走进房间或沿着走廊，你可以看到他们的脸色发生变化。
It's like, they turned their head like, who's watching me talk to this black person?
就像，他们转过头，谁在看我和这个黑人说话？
When I learned about the civil rights movement in school, I got a pretty truncated version of it.
当我在学校了解民权运动时，我得到了一个相当精简的版本。
I remember learning about the Little Rock Nine.
我记得了解过小石城九人组。
And I saw that famous picture of them entering Central High School surrounded by US soldiers.
我看到了他们被美国士兵包围进入中央高中的那张著名照片。
And then desegregation happened.
然后废除种族隔离发生了。
And now we get to use the same bathrooms.
现在我们可以使用相同的浴室。
That's pretty much all I got.
这几乎就是我所得到的一切。
I didn't know about what those kids went through on a day-to-day basis.
我不知道这些孩子每天都经历了什么。
But my mother, on the other hand, did.
但另一方面，我的母亲却这么做了。
The school she eventually went to was just a little over an hour away from Little Rock.
她最终就读的学校距离小石城只有一个多小时的路程。
And she was paying very close attention to what was going on there.
她非常密切地关注那里发生的事情。
In Little Rock, the Little Rock Nine, when they integrated Central High School, nine black kids.
在小石城，小石城九人组，当他们融入中央高中时，有九个黑人孩子。
And they had a lady named Daisy somebody.
他们有一位名叫黛西的女士。
That's Daisy Bates, the head of the Arkansas chapter of the NAACP at the time.
那是黛西·贝茨，当时全国有色人种协进会阿肯色州分会的负责人。
She would walk these kids to school every day.
她每天都会送这些孩子去学校。
She would listen to them.
她会听他们的。
And I mean, this is stuff I read in the newspaper, how she was sympathetic to what they were going through.
我的意思是，这是我在报纸上读到的内容，她对他们所经历的事情表示同情。
And all day long, people were calling them the nigger.
整天，人们都称他们为黑鬼。
Or the teacher calling the nigger.
或者老师骂黑鬼。
Or the kids calling them niggers.
或者孩子们称他们为黑鬼。
In Ebony magazine, we would read this how sympathetic she was to them.
在《乌木》杂志上，我们会读到她对他们有多么同情。
And they had somebody to talk to.
他们有人可以交谈。
We didn't get that.
我们不明白。
To be clear, the Little Rock Nine were as viciously persecuted as any black students at the time.
需要明确的是，小石城九人组当时与任何黑人学生一样受到残酷迫害。
They were spat on, verbally and physically abused, attacked with fire and acid.
他们被吐口水、言语和身体虐待、火和酸袭击。
But my mom still envied them because in her mind, those kids had access to the one thing that would have made her own situation more bearable.
但我妈妈仍然羡慕他们，因为在她看来，那些孩子可以获得一件能让她自己的处境更容易忍受的东西。
They had the ear of a caring adult.
他们有一个有爱心的成年人的耳朵。
What was your relationship with your mom like?
你和你妈妈的关系怎么样？
She had lots of kids.
她有很多孩子。
She had seven kids.
她有七个孩子。
She always made me feel like I was the runt of the litter.
她总是让我觉得自己是一窝中的小人物。
I was dark.
我当时就黑了。
I had really tight, kinky hair.
我的头发非常紧，卷曲。
I wasn't high-yellow like a couple of my sisters.
我不像我的几个姐妹那样黄。
I did not have long hair like a couple of my sisters.
我不像我的几个姐妹那样留着长头发。
So I was black.
所以我是黑人。
I was chunky, dunky, dusty.
我矮胖、矮胖、满身灰尘。
She favored the lighter kids or wanted you guys to have--
她偏爱体重较轻的孩子，或者希望你们——
She treated them differently.
她以不同的方式对待他们。
Sasheer Zamata What her mother was teaching her was the same thing her country was teaching her, that her blackness was less valuable.
萨希尔·扎马塔 (Sasheer Zamata) 她母亲教给她的东西和她的国家教给她的东西是一样的，即她的黑人身份不那么有价值。
If she's buying cute little dresses for all of her daughters, I shouldn't be the one that didn't get the dress and have to wait till my fat sister outgrew it and then I get it.
如果她要给她所有的女儿买可爱的小裙子，我不应该是那个没有得到这件衣服的人，而必须等到我的胖妹妹长大了，然后我才得到它。
I shouldn't be the one that when it's time to comb hair, make their hair look cute.
我不应该是那种一到梳头发就让他们的头发看起来很可爱的人。
And then when she gets to me and she's tired, she just throws a few plaits on my head and they're going every which a'way.
然后当她走到我身边时，她累了，她只是在我头上扔了几条辫子，然后它们就到处乱窜。
I started combing my own hair when I was like sixth grade because I knew she was not go put herself out to make me look good.
当我六年级的时候，我就开始自己梳头发，因为我知道她不会为了让我看起来漂亮而竭尽全力。
So I had to figure it out myself.
所以我必须自己想办法。
Of all the stuff we talked about, this is the part that made me the most sad.
在我们谈论的所有事情中，这是让我最难过的部分。
She feels the way she does about white people because white people were so terrible to her.
她对白人有同样的感觉，因为白人对她来说太可怕了。
And I get that.
我明白了。
But there's something else going on.
但还有其他事情正在发生。
She's mad at her mom for putting her in that situation, forcing her to go to a place where white people could treat her that way.
她对妈妈把她置于这种境地感到生气，强迫她去一个白人可以那样对待她的地方。
Where I went to school, where I live, the job I have-- all those things are a direct result of desegregation.
我在哪里上学，我住在哪里，我有什么工作——所有这些都是废除种族隔离的直接结果。
My life would have been totally different otherwise.
否则我的生活将会完全不同。
And listening back to the recording of our conversation, I couldn't believe how many times I asked her if she was proud of her contribution.
回听我们的谈话录音，我简直不敢相信我有多少次问她是否为自己的贡献感到自豪。
Do you look at that time and think about how you've helped change things in America?
您是否回顾过那段时间并思考过您是如何帮助改变美国的？
Do you see it as a--
你是否认为它是——
No. No. Sasheer Zamata Do you feel like you affected future generations?
不。不。Sasheer Zamata 您觉得您影响了后代吗？
No. It was going to happen anyway.
不，无论如何这都会发生。
It's just that we get tortured in the process.
只是我们在这个过程中受到了折磨。
So you just would have rather not have been a part of it.
所以你宁愿不参与其中。
Well-- I don't know.
嗯——我不知道。
I mean, I'm-- it's not all very unfortunate.
我的意思是，我——这并不完全是不幸的。
It's actually very fortunate, like a lot has changed.
其实很幸运，好像很多事情都改变了。
I--
我——
Yeah, a lot has changed.
是的，很多事情都改变了。
But for that small group of people who went through this process, we got caught in the crossfire.
但对于经历这个过程的那一小群人来说，我们陷入了交火之中。
So if you could go back in time, you wouldn't even do it?
那么如果你可以回到过去，你甚至不会这样做吗？
No. Sasheer Zamata It would be so easy for my mom to just say yes, even one time.
不。萨希尔·扎马塔（Sasheer Zamata） 我妈妈很容易就说“是”，哪怕只有一次。
People who weren't even in the civil rights movement claim that they were a part of the civil rights movement.
那些甚至没有参加民权运动的人声称他们是民权运动的一部分。
I get that this was a hard period in her life.
我知道这是她一生中的艰难时期。
But I figured she could at least see how it benefited me.
但我想她至少能看到这对我有什么好处。
I went to school with all sorts of kids.
我和各种各样的孩子一起上学。
And kids did give me trouble.
孩子们确实给我带来了麻烦。
But it wasn't the white kids.
但那不是白人孩子。
There was like a field day or something outside.
外面好像有一个野外活动日或其他什么活动。
And I was in the circle of white girls.
我在白人女孩的圈子里。
And then I went over to the circle of black girls.
然后我走到黑人女孩圈子里。
And this one girl turned around, boxed me out of the circle, and was like, "why don't you go back and play with your little white friends?"
这个女孩转过身来，把我赶出了圈子，然后说道：“你为什么不回去和你的白人小伙伴们一起玩呢？”
And I cried instantly.
我立刻就哭了。
I went to the curb by myself, just cried.
我独自走到路边，哭了。
And my white girlfriends came over.
我的白人女朋友也过来了。
And they were like, what's wrong?
他们说，怎么了？
And I was like, get away from me.
我当时想，离我远点。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] This is your fault.
[观众笑声]这是你的错。
And then my black girlfriends came over.
然后我的黑人女朋友过来了。
And they're like, what's wrong?
他们会说，怎么了？
And I was like, Star made me cry.
我当时想，明星让我哭了。
And I explained the whole thing.
我解释了整个事情。
And then they were like, she has no right to say that.
然后他们就说，她没有权利这么说。
You can hang out with whoever you want.
你可以和任何你想要的人一起出去玩。
That was the first time I encountered a thing where someone was like, you can't hang out with a certain group of people, even if it's your own group of people.
那是我第一次遇到这样的事情，有人说，你不能和某一群人一起出去玩，即使是你自己的一群人。
But, yeah, there was always that separation but not the way my mom had experienced.
但是，是的，分离总是存在，但不是我妈妈所经历的那样。
My mom even asked me one day.
有一天，我妈妈甚至问我。
She was like, are you afraid of black people because I primarily had a lot of white friends.
她说，你害怕黑人吗，因为我主要有很多白人朋友。
Which really screwed me up because my mom's black.
这真的把我搞砸了，因为我妈妈是黑人。
And I was definitely afraid of her.
我绝对害怕她。
[AUDIENCE LAUGHTER] Sasheer Zamata One time you asked me if I was scared of black people.
[观众笑声] Sasheer Zamata 有一次你问我是否害怕黑人。
Do you remember that?
你还记得吗？
Uh-uh.
呃呃。
Sasheer Zamata I don't know when it was or why.
Sasheer Zamata 我不知道是什么时候发生的，也不知道为什么。
I mean, I'm assuming I was in middle school or elementary school or something.
我的意思是，我假设我正在上中学或小学什么的。
But yeah, you said-- you asked, "are you afraid of black people?" And I--
但是，是的，你问，“你害怕黑人吗？”而我——
What did you say?
你说什么？
Sasheer Zamata I said, no. But I think-- I assumed that question came because I mostly had white friends.
萨希尔·扎马塔 我说，不。但我认为——我认为这个问题的出现是因为我大部分都是白人朋友。
And I was like, does she think I don't want to hang around black people?
我当时想，她认为我不想和黑人在一起吗？
Kind of gave me a little complex.
有点让我有点复杂。
[LAUGHTER] I felt a little paranoid that I had so many white friends, like it was a bad thing.
[笑声] 我对自己有这么多白人朋友感到有点偏执，好像这是一件坏事。
Not just because of you.
不只是因为你。
You weren't the only person to do that.
你不是唯一一个这样做的人。
But I wasn't expecting someone in my household to also do what the bullies at my school were doing.
但我没想到我家里有人也会做我学校欺凌者所做的事情。
It's not like I was-- did I say it more than once?
我又不是——我说过不止一次了吗？
No, but once is really all you need to do it.
不，但是您只需要做一次就可以了。
I know you didn't mean to hurt me or make me feel bad, but that's what happened.
我知道你并不是有意伤害我或让我感到难过，但事情就是这样发生了。
Mhm.
嗯。
Sasheer Zamata There's a lot of stuff that parents say that--
Sasheer Zamata 父母说了很多话——
Yeah, it's-- Sasheer Zamata --they don't realize is going to affect their kids like that.
是的，萨希尔·扎马塔（Sasheer Zamata）——他们没有意识到这会像那样影响他们的孩子。
Tell me about it.
告诉我吧。
I get-- mm.
我明白了——嗯。
Sasheer Zamata Do you have an example?
Sasheer Zamata 你有例子吗？
You don't have to get into it i you don't want to.
如果你不想，你不必参与其中。
No. Sasheer Zamata How do you feel about me asking you these questions?
不。Sasheer Zamata 我问你这些问题你感觉如何？
I'm glad you open to it because I didn't get this with my mother.
我很高兴你能接受这个想法，因为我没有和我妈妈一起接受这个。
And I'm glad you're curious about me.
我很高兴你对我感到好奇。
But my mother wouldn't let me be curious about her.
但我妈妈不让我对她感到好奇。
My mom and I have never had the closest relationship.
我和妈妈的关系从来都不是最亲密的。
She and my dad split up when I was nine.
我九岁时，她和我父亲分手了。
And at some point, I started to focus a lot of my anger over their divorce onto her.
在某个时候，我开始将他们离婚的大部分愤怒集中在她身上。
She was always very strict with me.
她对我总是很严格。
So we fought a lot.
所以我们吵了很多架。
Eventually, I went away to college and the tension eased up a bit.
最终，我去上大学了，紧张的气氛缓和了一些。
But that's mostly because we talked less.
但这主要是因为我们说话较少。
Now that I've gotten older and sat through my fair share of therapy, I've been trying to let some of that resentment go.
现在我已经长大了，并接受了应有的治疗，我一直在努力消除一些怨恨。
And I'm trying to think of my mother more as a whole person.
我试着把我的母亲视为一个完整的人。
I know.
我知道。
But for a long time, I didn't think so.
但很长一段时间，我并不这么认为。
Oh.
哦。
Sasheer Zamata How do you feel about our relationship?
Sasheer Zamata 您对我们的关系有何看法？
I don't know.
我不知道。
We don't really get to spend very much time.
我们实际上并没有花太多时间。
Since you've moved to New York, we don't have any deep conversations anymore.
自从你搬到纽约后，我们就不再进行深入的交谈了。
So I'm not sure how I feel about it because I can't get my hands on you.
所以我不确定我的感受如何，因为我无法接触到你。
I don't remember us having too many deep conversations.
我不记得我们有过太多深入的交谈。
Well, teenagers, they don't.
嗯，青少年，他们不这样做。
Sasheer Zamata Well, they can.
Sasheer Zamata 好吧，他们可以。
You know, like most single parents, I had a lot on my table, trying to maintain a job, trying to raise kids, dealing with legal drama with my ex.
你知道，像大多数单亲父母一样，我有很多事情要做，努力维持工作，努力抚养孩子，处理与前任的法律纠纷。
My plate was full.
我的盘子已经满了。
And you're doing all this stuff at school.
而你在学校做所有这些事情。
And you're getting your good grades.
而且你正在取得好成绩。
And you had your own thing going.
而你也有自己的事情要做。
But I do feel like I like, I guess, felt a separation or felt like, I guess, resentment for you having your own thing and me having my own thing.
但我确实觉得我喜欢，我猜，感觉分离，或者感觉，我猜，对你有你自己的东西而我有我自己的东西感到怨恨。
Oh, that's a teenager thing.
哦，那是青少年的事情。
Sasheer Zamata I don't know if it is.
Sasheer Zamata 我不知道是不是这样。
Well, I remember when I was a teenager, and I was most of the time mad at my mother.
嗯，我记得当我十几岁的时候，我大部分时间都生妈妈的气。
But you stayed mad at your mother for the rest of her life.
但你却在你母亲的余生中一直对她生气。
Do you see any parallels between your relationship with your mom and our relationship?
你觉得你和你妈妈的关系和我们的关系有什么相似之处吗？
Not at all.
一点也不。
Sasheer Zamata Even though we still don't agree on most things, at least we're talking.
Sasheer Zamata 尽管我们在大多数事情上仍然没有达成一致，但至少我们在谈论。
That's new.
这是新的。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
Did I ever tell you I dated a white guy?
我有没有告诉过你我和一个白人约会过？
What?
什么？
When was this?
这是什么时候的事？
Ivory After I got out of college, I was living in Little Rock.
象牙 大学毕业后，我住在小石城。
And I was dating this white guy.
我正在和这个白人约会。
Yeah.
是的。
Sasheer Zamata Whoa.
萨希尔·扎马塔 哇。
You dated a short Jew?
你和一个身材矮小的犹太人约会过？
Wow.
哇。
That-- I did not expect that at all.
那——我根本没想到会这样。
I just assumed-- because Papa's 6'5", so I was like, I just assumed you liked tall guys.
我只是假设——因为爸爸身高 6 英尺 5 英寸，所以我想，我只是假设你喜欢高个子。
That's cool.
太酷了。
I have a lot of short, Jewish friends.
我有很多个子矮的犹太朋友。
She told me that they dated for three months, and then she dumped him because of her mom.
她告诉我，他们约会了三个月，然后因为她妈妈的原因，她抛弃了他。
Her uncle saw her out one night with him.
一天晚上，她叔叔送她出去。
And he said, "you dating a white man?
他说：“你和一个白人约会吗？
I'm going to call your mama and tell her what you doing up here." So when we got home that night, I was done with him.
我要打电话给你妈妈，告诉她你在这儿做什么。”所以当我们那天晚上回到家时，我就不再理他了。
Wow.
哇。
Ivory I was just not that into him to think that this was worthy of a conversation I wanted to have with my mother.
象牙 我只是不太喜欢他，认为这值得我想和我的母亲进行一次对话。
I get that.
我明白了。
It's never easy to figure out what conversations to have with your mother.
弄清楚与母亲进行哪些对话绝非易事。
Sasheer Zamata, you can see her on television on Saturday Night Live.
Sasheer Zamata，您可以在《周六夜现场》的电视节目中看到她。
Coming up, I use my platform as a radio show host to ask a question I have been wanting to ask for years-- from WBEZ Chicago, when our program continues.
接下来，当我们的节目继续进行时，我将利用我作为广播节目主持人的平台，从芝加哥 WBEZ 提出一个我多年来一直想问的问题。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
Our show today is about things that make more sense when you're older.
我们今天的节目是关于当你长大后更有意义的事情。
We've arrived at middle age, when a person begins to wonder, will this make sense when I'm older?
我们已经到了中年，当一个人开始想知道，当我老了之后，这是否有意义？
Any of it?
有吗？
The choices I'm making, the work I'm doing, the place I live, how I'm spending my time, and how I'm not spending my time.
我正在做的选择，我正在做的工作，我住的地方，我如何度过我的时间，以及我如何不度过我的时间。
That's one I think about a lot.
这是我经常思考的一个问题。
There's a letter in my desk at work.
我上班时的办公桌上有一封信。
It's a little over the top, but it gets its point across.
虽然有点夸张，但已经表达了要点。
My four-year-old wrote it with the assistance of his babysitter.
我四岁的孩子在保姆的帮助下写下了这本书。
It reads, "Dear mommy, I don't want you to go away again.
上面写着：“亲爱的妈妈，我不想让你再离开。
Love, Jacob."
爱你，雅各布。”
So am I doing this right, making the right choices?
那么我做得对吗，做出了正确的选择吗？
And I'm going to regret these choices in 20 years in my 50s?
20年后我50多岁的时候我会后悔这些选择吗？
I think a sort of classic way people try to answer this question is to find someone in their 50s who's living it and ask them.
我认为人们尝试回答这个问题的一种经典方法是找一个 50 多岁的人来问他们。
I've got one right nearby, same line of work.
我附近就有一个，从事同样的工作。
How does it feel to be on that side of the mic?
站在麦克风的那一侧感觉如何？
Feels fine.
感觉很好。
Chana Joffe-Walt Ira agreed to talk to me before he got on a plane last week.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特·艾拉 (Chana Joffe-Walt Ira) 同意在上周登机前与我交谈。
So here we are.
所以我们到了。
Act Three: Middle Age.
第三幕：中年。
And we're talking about the choices Ira's made.
我们正在谈论艾拉所做的选择。
Ira describes his 30s this way.
艾拉这样描述自己的三十多岁。
Every moment, I was either working or asleep.
每时每刻，我要么在工作，要么在睡觉。
Like those were the two things I did and didn't have a problem with it.
就像我做过的两件事一样，但没有遇到任何问题。
I have noticed recently that you do do some things that are not just working.
我最近注意到你确实做了一些不仅仅是工作的事情。
Yes, that's definitely true.
是的，这绝对是真的。
Chana Joffe-Walt I remember you told me when you were hanging out with someone-- or you were going out to dinner and you said something like, yeah, I've started to try this new thing called friends recently.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特（Chana Joffe-Walt） 我记得当你和某人出去玩时，或者你要出去吃晚饭时，你告诉过我，你说，是的，我最近开始尝试这种称为朋友的新事物。
(LAUGHING) Yeah.
（笑）是的。
Chana Joffe-Walt It's really-- it's cool.
Chana Joffe-Walt 真的——太酷了。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
Chana Joffe-Walt Yeah, it's fun.
Chana Joffe-Walt 是的，这很有趣。
Yeah, it's really fun.
是的，这真的很有趣。
Chana Joffe-Walt But that was two years ago, Ira.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 但那是两年前的事了，艾拉。
What happened before then?
那之前发生了什么？
I had friends who I wouldn't see that often, people I liked, but we wouldn't see each other, you know?
我有一些不常见面的朋友，我喜欢的人，但我们不会见面，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass Yeah.
艾拉·格拉斯 是的。
I mean, the fact is I definitely do schedule all kinds of things now that I never would have five years ago, or 10 years ago, like during the week at night at 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock.
我的意思是，事实上，我现在肯定会安排各种各样的事情，这是五年前或十年前我永远不会做的事情，比如一周的晚上 7 点或 8 点。
And then I go do them.
然后我就去做。
And--
还有——
Why did you start doing that?
你为什么开始这样做？
Ira Glass For fun.
艾拉·格拉斯 为了好玩。
Why?
为什么？
Ira Glass My own amusement.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）：我自己的乐趣。
I'm normal in that way.
我在这方面很正常。
I wanted to see people.
我想见人。
There's people I like.
有我喜欢的人。
I wanted to see them.
我想见见他们。
Is that a thing that you wish you had done earlier?
这是您希望早点做的事情吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Like I wish I'd created more space for myself and I wasn't working all the time, for sure.
就像我希望为自己创造更多的空间，而且我当然不会一直在工作。
But I don't want it enough that I'd do anything about it.
但我还不够想要它，以至于我不会为此做任何事情。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
So then, really, how much do I want it?
那么，我真的想要多少呢？
I want it when I see it.
当我看到它时我想要它。
I think that seems good.
我认为这似乎不错。
But then in practice-- what's the thing-- what are the questions that you're asking yourself that are leading to this?
但在实践中——到底是怎么回事——你问自己的问题是什么导致了这种情况？
I'm not asking these questions all the time, but fairly regularly there is a moment where I step back.
我不会一直问这些问题，但有时我会退后一步。
And I'm like I don't know if in 20 years or 30 years I'm going to be like that's what I should have been doing when I was in my 30s, when my kids were little, when my parents were still alive.
我不知道20年或30年后我是否会像我30多岁时、我的孩子还小的时候、我的父母还活着的时候应该做的那样。
Yeah.
是的。
Chana Joffe-Walt Yeah, I guess it's not just moments.
Chana Joffe-Walt 是的，我想这不仅仅是瞬间。
I have it a lot.
我有很多。
I have it a lot.
我有很多。
Those don't seem to be questions for you.
这些似乎不是你要问的问题。
It seems like-- I don't know.
看起来——我不知道。
I didn't know you when you were in your 30s.
你30多岁的时候我还不认识你。
But right now, it seems like you are very singularly directed.
但现在看来，你的方向很独特。
And you don't have the anxiety of all the other questions.
而且你不会因为所有其他问题而感到焦虑。
Yeah.
是的。
Chana Joffe-Walt Did you ever have that?
Chana Joffe-Walt 你有过这样的经历吗？
I mean, you're in a different situation because you have kids, you know?
我的意思是，你的情况有所不同，因为你有孩子，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ira Glass But you're wondering, was I plagued by doubt?
Ira Glass：但是你想知道，我是否被怀疑所困扰？
And I wasn't.
但我不是。
You think about this all the time.
你一直在想这个。
And I never think about this.
我从来没有想过这个。
And I never really did think about this.
我从来没有真正思考过这个问题。
Yeah.
是的。
I can't imagine deciding the only thing I want to do is work and sleep.
我无法想象我唯一想做的事情就是工作和睡觉。
I totally can't imagine that.
我完全无法想象。
No, I would miss things.
不，我会想念一些事情。
See, when you say this, this is-- this gives me this feeling of like, oh, wait.
看，当你这么说时，这给我一种感觉，哦，等等。
I'm more of a weirdo than I thought in this way which I don't usually think of myself at all.
我比我想象的更加怪异，我通常根本不考虑自己。
But I still am glad for the choice I made.
但我仍然为自己的选择感到庆幸。
I feel like what I am getting from all of this is that you and I have many things in common.
我觉得我从这一切中得到的是你和我有很多共同点。
And we are extremely different human beings.
我们是截然不同的人。
And that makes me actually the very worst person to ask this advice from.
这让我实际上成为最不该向我寻求建议的人。
I'm too different from you to give you any advice.
我和你的差距太大了，无法给你任何建议。
I mean, the thing that's different for you is a desire for free time.
我的意思是，对你来说不同的是对自由时间的渴望。
(LAUGHING) No. No, I didn't.
（笑）不，不，我没有。
Chana Joffe-Walt Ira Glass is the host of this show, just not this week.
查娜·乔菲-沃尔特·艾拉·格拉斯 (Chana Joffe-Walt Ira Glass) 是该节目的主持人，但不是本周。
Act Four: Old Age.
第四幕：老年。
So we begin when you're little.
所以我们从你还小的时候开始。
And there are things you do not know.
还有一些你不知道的事情。
You can't understand.
你无法理解。
And then you grow up, and you get it.
然后你长大了，你就明白了。
We fall in love.
我们相爱了。
This is love.
这就是爱。
Or someone tells you what "hooker" means.
或者有人告诉你“妓女”是什么意思。
I remember that vividly.
我记得很清楚。
Stuff eventually makes sense.
事情最终有意义。
This last story, it's about what happens after that, long after that.
最后一个故事，是关于在那之后、很久之后发生的事情。
It's about a man named Carl Duzen.
这是关于一个名叫卡尔·杜曾（Carl Duzen）的人的故事。
Carl was diagnosed with Alzheimer's a year and a half ago at age 79.
一年半前，79 岁的卡尔被诊断出患有阿尔茨海默病。
So after decades of adulthood, it is suddenly appropriate for a 40-year-old doctor to ask him questions like, can you tell me who the president is?
因此，在成年几十年后，突然间，一个 40 岁的医生问他这样的问题是合适的：你能告诉我总统是谁吗？
Or, do you remember your name?
或者，你还记得你的名字吗？
When Carl goes to the doctor, he always goes with his wife Susan.
当卡尔去看医生时，他总是和他的妻子苏珊一起去。
He always hates going.
他总是讨厌去。
And he always knows his name.
而且他总是知道自己的名字。
So one of the questions that you should always ask, make a picture, basically, of a clock at such and such a time.
因此，你应该经常问的问题之一，基本上是在某某时间制作一张时钟的图片。
Yes, the round face.
是的，圆脸。
Chana Joffe-Walt I see.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 我明白了。
Could you draw an analog clock with the time 11:20?
你能画一个时间为 11:20 的模拟时钟吗？
Susan, Carl's wife, tells me one day recently, she drove Carl to his appointment.
卡尔的妻子苏珊告诉我，最近的一天，她开车送卡尔去赴约。
Carl went in.
卡尔进去了。
And Carl tells me he waited there, pencil in hand, the tester waiting next to him, asking him, "draw a clock."
卡尔告诉我，他手里拿着铅笔等在那里，测试员等在他旁边，问他“画一个时钟”。
So I got a piece of paper.
于是我得到了一张纸。
No matter what I-- I just-- I couldn't-- I couldn't do it.
不管怎样，我——我只是——我做不到——我做不到。
Carl tried again.
卡尔又试了一次。
He looked up at the tester, back down toward his page.
他抬头看着测试者，又低头看向他的页面。
Tester, his pencil.
测试员，他的铅笔。
So, look at that and yeah, I can't do it.
所以，看看这个，是的，我做不到。
He can't do it.
他做不到。
Carl got a graduate degree in physics.
卡尔获得了物理学研究生学位。
He studied motion, electromagnetism.
他研究运动、电磁学。
He spent a lot of his life deep in the study of space and time of numbers.
他一生花费大量时间深入研究数字的空间和时间。
He taught physics and mathematics for years.
他教授物理和数学多年。
So this particular failing was unnerving.
所以这个特殊的失败是令人不安的。
Why is this so difficult?
为什么这么难？
Why is that so hard?
为什么这么难？
It's clocks.
这是时钟。
Why is that so hard?
为什么这么难？
When Carl talks, his wife Susan is completely still, listening, hanging on the details so she doesn't miss anything, jumping in with words when they're needed.
当卡尔讲话时，他的妻子苏珊完全安静地听着，紧抓细节，以免错过任何内容，并在需要时插话。
She's a full head taller than Carl.
她比卡尔高了整整一个头。
Their favorite joke, as Susan says, I almost overlooked him.
正如苏珊所说，他们最喜欢的笑话是，我几乎忽视了他。
And then he jumps in the air so she can see his face.
然后他跳到空中，这样她就能看到他的脸。
When Carl says things lately that don't have much basis in reality, Susan respectfully raises two questioning eyebrows, leaves it at that.
当卡尔最近说一些没有太多现实依据的事情时，苏珊恭敬地扬起两道眉毛，表示怀疑，然后就这样了。
As he's describing the trouble of the clock, Susan assures Carl he's not alone.
当他描述时钟的故障时，苏珊向卡尔保证他并不孤单。
The clock thing comes up in her support group for spouses of people with dementia.
在她的痴呆症患者配偶支持小组中，时钟问题出现了。
In the support group, people would talk about how, oh, my husband has an appointment next week with the doctor.
在支持小组中，人们会谈论，哦，我丈夫下周要去看医生。
So he's been busy practicing the clock.
所以他一直忙着练习时钟。
Oh, yeah, the clock.
哦，是的，时钟。
Oh, my husband never gets it.
哦，我丈夫从来没有得到过。
Well, because it's so universal.
嗯，因为它是如此普遍。
There it is.
就在那里。
[INTERPOSING VOICES] Carl Duzen It's the time.
[插话] Carl Duzen 现在是时候了。
And now suddenly, you can't manage it.
现在突然之间，你无法管理它。
Ack.
确认。
And so, I just said, OK.
所以，我只是说，好吧。
So what I did is got a piece of paper.
所以我所做的就是拿到一张纸。
I just sat down.
我刚坐下。
Where is it?
它在哪里？
Let's--
让我们——
Do you want me to follow you?
你想让我跟着你吗？
Carl Duzen No, I'll bring it.
卡尔·杜森 不，我会带来它。
I'll bring it back.
我会把它带回来。
Carl starts looking around for something.
卡尔开始四处寻找东西。
Goes in the kitchen.
走进厨房。
He seems to be lost.
他似乎迷路了。
And then goes upstairs.
然后上楼。
Eventually, he comes down with a wooden box.
最终，他带着一个木箱下来。
Inside, it's felted with drafting tools.
里面是用绘图工具毡制的。
What do you have there?
你那里有什么？
Carl Duzen So, I got a piece of paper.
Carl Duzen 所以，我有一张纸。
I got out the tool that I have for doing this kind of work.
我拿出了完成此类工作的工具。
So that's like a compass?
那么这就像一个指南针吗？
It looks like the sort of compass I used in math in elementary school.
它看起来就像我在小学数学中使用的那种指南针。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
So I thought, OK, I'm going to-- I sat down with it for just about an hour.
所以我想，好吧，我要——我坐下来讨论了大约一个小时。
To be clear, not necessarily to draw a clock, but to figure out why he couldn't draw a clock.
说清楚了，不一定是要画钟，而是要弄清楚为什么他画不了钟。
And I finally realized that the problem is superposition of three--
我终于意识到问题是三者的叠加——
Carl has drawn a very precise circle, split it into twelfths, and scrawled the words "superposition of three types" in tiny letters in the corner of the page.
卡尔画了一个非常精确的圆圈，将其分成十二等分，并在纸页的一角用小字母潦草地写着“三种类型的叠加”。
He explains, with Susan's help, there are three layers of information here.
他解释说，在苏珊的帮助下，这里有三层信息。
There's the hours that are represented from 1 through 12, even though there are 24 hours in a day.
尽管一天有 24 小时，但小时数从 1 到 12 表示。
But then, there's the second layer, which is the minutes.
但是，还有第二层，即会议记录。
And a 1 represents not a 1 anymore, but 5 minutes.
而1不再代表1，而是代表5分钟。
And a 2 represents 10.
2 代表 10。
But Carl adds, after that layer is the second hand, which is now measuring 1 through 60 seconds.
但 Carl 补充道，在那一层之后是秒针，现在测量的是 1 到 60 秒。
Superposition of three types.
三种类型的叠加。
Carl Duzen Types because you have three different elevations that you have to get together to make the information.
Carl Duzen 类型，因为你有三个不同的高度，你必须将它们聚集在一起才能生成信息。
Carl sat with his tools and his paper and his physicist's desire to decompose the problem before him.
卡尔坐在那里，带着他的工具和论文，以及他的物理学家想要分解他面前的问题的愿望。
And he took apart each element of the clock until it made sense to him, the three layers, the fact that the eye goes to the larger minute hand first and your brain has to override that to focus on the smaller hour hand, which is actually more important even though it's smaller and not the first thing you see.
他拆解了时钟的每个元素，直到对他来说有意义，即三层，事实上，眼睛首先看到较大的分针，而你的大脑必须忽略它以聚焦于较小的时针，尽管它较小并且不是你首先看到的东西，但它实际上更重要。
And then you're supposed to move to the longer minute hand.
然后你应该移动到更长的分针。
But don't be tricked because the second hand is also longer but it's skinnier.
但不要被欺骗，因为秒针也更长，但更细。
And by the end of all this, I just feel like, what the hell, clock?
到这一切结束时，我只是觉得，到底是什么，时钟？
I can't believe this is the system we have for telling time.
我不敢相信这就是我们用来报时的系统。
It's insane.
太疯狂了。
It's a miracle anyone can ever just glance at their wrist and capture information, something Carl works very hard at.
任何人只要看一眼手腕就能捕捉到信息，这真是一个奇迹，卡尔在这方面非常努力。
So and the brain-- the brain is in there trying desperately, of course, to get hold all of these things at the same time to respond to.
所以，大脑——当然，大脑正在拼命地尝试同时抓住所有这些东西来做出反应。
And it's just dead hard.
这实在是太难了。
And then when I did this I figured, oh, that's why it's so hard.
然后当我这样做时，我想，哦，这就是为什么它如此困难。
Your brain can't help you draw a clock, but you used your brain to figure out why your brain can't help you draw a clock.
你的大脑无法帮助你画一个时钟，但是你用你的大脑来弄清楚为什么你的大脑无法帮助你画一个时钟。
Yeah, that's kind of the way it is.
是的，就是这样。
I felt like that I got something back that I had lost.
我感觉我失去的东西又回来了。
But not that I could do it easily for a while, but that I at least understood why I have was having trouble.
但并不是说我可以轻松地做到这一点一段时间，但我至少明白为什么我会遇到麻烦。
And that felt like-- Carl Duzen And that had-- it had meaning.
那感觉就像——卡尔·杜森（Carl Duzen）那——它有意义。
And it had the structure.
它有这样的结构。
Instead of just feeling like this is a random thing that I now suddenly can't do.
而不是仅仅感觉这是一件我现在突然做不到的随机事情。
And it isn't easy.
这并不容易。
It is difficult.
这很难。
And so I felt better about myself.
所以我对自己感觉更好了。
Got perky.
神采飞扬了
More perky.
更加活泼。
A dementia diagnosis is being told you are now no longer going to understand things as you get older.
痴呆症诊断表明，随着年龄的增长，您将不再理解事物。
For the first time in your life, the chronological forward march of knowledge will begin to reverse itself.
在你的一生中，这是第一次，按时间顺序向前推进的知识将开始逆转。
But Carl is understanding things he never knew before.
但卡尔正在了解他以前从未了解过的事情。
And this is the case with lots of people with dementia.
许多痴呆症患者就是这种情况。
Through meeting Carl and other people, I talked to a woman who forgot how to make coffee.
通过与卡尔和其他人的会面，我与一位忘记如何煮咖啡的女士进行了交谈。
And then she broke down the steps involved so she could do it again.
然后她分解了所涉及的步骤，以便她可以再做一遍。
A guy who re-learned to use his cell phone.
一个重新学会使用手机的人。
That's something Carl has also done.
卡尔也做过这件事。
Carl knows way more about a clock than most of us only because he forgot how to draw one.
卡尔对时钟的了解比我们大多数人都多，只是因为他忘记了如何画时钟。
You learn what you need to know when you need to know it.
当你需要知道的时候，你就会学到你需要知道的东西。
Carl tells me proudly now that he understands the superposition of three types, he can use that to read a watch again.
卡尔自豪地告诉我，现在他理解了三种类型的叠加，他可以用它来再次读取手表。
Susan raises her eyebrows skeptically at this, but says nothing.
苏珊对此表示怀疑，扬起眉毛，但什么也没说。
From the time that I was told that I had Alzheimer's to now, the things that I had let go of because kinds of things in physics that I used to teach I can't even tell you what it is.
从我被告知我患有阿尔茨海默氏症到现在，我已经放弃了一些东西，因为我曾经教过的物理知识我什至无法告诉你它是什么。
That's gone.
那已经消失了。
For a while, I couldn't use my computer, remember how to use it.
有一段时间，我无法使用我的电脑，记住如何使用它。
And now I can go with a clock--
现在我可以带着时钟去——
Can you tell the time?
你能告诉时间吗？
Carl Duzen On this one, it's really tough.
Carl Duzen 在这一点上，确实很难。
But here it is.
但它就在这里。
You want to look at mine?
你想看看我的吗？
Carl Duzen [INAUDIBLE] OK, here's where it--
Carl Duzen [听不清] 好吧，这就是——
Here, Carl, look at mine.
在这里，卡尔，看看我的。
Carl Duzen OK.
卡尔·杜森 好的。
Carl's wearing a watch, but it's small.
卡尔戴着一块手表，但它很小。
And he doesn't seem to know how to deal with the fact that it's covered by part of his sleeve.
而且他似乎不知道如何应对它被他的袖子的一部分遮住的事实。
Susan pulls out her gold watch, which has a much larger face.
苏珊拿出她的金表，它的表盘要大得多。
OK.
好的。
So you're looking around for information.
所以你正在四处寻找信息。
You would go for this because that's the most important thing.
你会这样做，因为这是最重要的事情。
It looks like it.
看起来是这样。
It's the biggest one.
这是最大的一个。
Yes.
是的。
And then there's this little bitty one over here.
然后这里还有这个小东西。
The short stubby one.
又短又粗的那种。
Carl Duzen The short stubby one.
Carl Duzen 短粗的。
It's the smallest little thing.
这是最小的小东西。
It's that little piece, you see?
就是那个小碎片，你看到了吗？
And that's the hour one.
那是第一个小时。
That's the one, hour by hour, that does the whole thing.
这就是一个人，一小时一小时地完成整个事情。
You have to think through each of those steps every time you look at a watch?
每次看手表时都必须仔细考虑每一个步骤吗？
OK, so this is-- well, here we are with the little piece.
好的，这就是——好吧，我们就到了这个小部分。
And now we are at-- let's see-- 12, 1--
现在我们正处于——让我们看看—— 12, 1——
Carl stops talking and is staring intensely at the watch.
卡尔停止说话，专注地盯着手表。
Susan looks very nervous.
苏珊看起来很紧张。
We are all leaning in.
我们都在倾斜。
Later, I will realize that here is where I stopped breathing.
后来，我会意识到，我就是在这里停止了呼吸。
Carl spends a while on that hour hand and then starts counting by fives in a whisper around the face of the watch.
卡尔在时针上呆了一会儿，然后开始在手表表面小声地以五为单位数数。
5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40.
5、10、15、20、25、30、35、40。
1:40?
1:40？
Yeah.
是的。
That's how I do it.
我就是这么做的。
Yeah, that's fantastic.
是的，那太棒了。
Chana Joffe-Walt What did that feel like?
查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 那感觉怎么样？
It's good.
很好。
It's good.
很好。
Chana Joffe-Walt Do you worry-- so now you have this level of analysis that helps how know how to read a clock by thinking about what is involved in reading a clock, do you worry that you're going to forget this?
Chana Joffe-Walt 你是否担心——现在你有了这样的分析水平，可以通过思考阅读时钟所涉及的内容来帮助了解如何阅读时钟，你是否担心你会忘记这一点？
Sure.
当然。
That's why I have to do this.
这就是为什么我必须这样做。
There's no path back.
没有回头路了。
There's no path back to a day when you used to be able to draw a clock using-- without having to think about it.
再也回不到以前你不用想就能画出时钟的那一天。
There's no path back.
没有回头路了。
Chana Joffe-Walt There are a lot of things that make sense when you're older, as in a grown-up.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特（Chana Joffe-Walt） 当你年纪大了，就像成年人一样，很多事情都有意义。
And then there are things that make sense when you're actually getting old, when you start to make sense of losing things.
当你真正变老，当你开始明白失去东西的意义时，有些事情就变得有意义了。
That is what I'm sure most of us cannot fully grasp until we get there ourselves, to know-- to really know-- there is no path back.
我相信我们大多数人都无法完全理解这一点，直到我们自己到达那里，才能知道——真正知道——没有回头路。
Our program was produced today by Zoe Chace with Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Zoe Chace 与 Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Stephanie Foo、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our editor is Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Julie Snyder is our editorial consultant.
朱莉·斯奈德是我们的编辑顾问。
Our technical director is Matt Tierney.
我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。
Production help from [INAUDIBLE] Smith.
来自[听不清]史密斯的制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon is our production manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson is our business operations manager.
Elise Bergerson 是我们的业务运营经理。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Kimberly Henderson is our office coordinator.
Kimberly Henderson 是我们的办公室协调员。
Research help from Christopher Swetala.
克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉 (Christopher Swetala) 提供研究帮助。
Music help from Damian Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damian Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
And to my boss, Ira Glass, who graciously let me sit in as host this week--
感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)，他慷慨地让我担任本周的主持人——
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特。
Ira will be back next week with more stories of This American Life.
艾拉将于下周带着更多《美国生活》的故事回来。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。