580: That's One Way to Do It - This American Life

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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #580 | February 19, 2016 580: That's One Way to Do It Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.

00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 580 集 | 2016 年 2 月 19 日 580：这是一种方法 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。

If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.

如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。

Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.

文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。

Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。

Prologue Ira Glass From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Ira Glass，这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

My profession that I was in as a conservation officer, state and federal, was not a job.

我作为州和联邦保护官员的职业并不是一份工作。

It was a vision quest.

这是一种愿景探索。

Ladies and gentlemen, meet Terry Grosz, retired California state fish and game warden; retired special agent, from 1981 to 1998, with the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

女士们先生们，请认识一下特里·格罗兹 (Terry Grosz)，他是退休的加利福尼亚州鱼类和狩猎管理员； 1981 年至 1998 年间，退休特工，在美国鱼类和野生动物管理局工作。

I was in charge of North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and Utah.

我负责北达科他州和南达科他州、内布拉斯加州、堪萨斯州、蒙大拿州、怀俄明州、科罗拉多州和犹他州。

Author of a dozen books, he has heard of the Terry Gross on Public Radio, but does not listen to her.

他是十几本书的作者，在公共广播电台上听说过特里·格罗斯，但不听她的歌。

Not his thing.

不是他的事。

He has personally nabbed thousands of people who were killing birds and fish and game illegally, taking wildlife illegally, smuggling wildlife illegally, selling wildlife parts and products, and committing other violations.

他亲自抓获了数千名非法捕杀鸟类、鱼类和野味、非法捕捞野生动物、非法走私野生动物、出售野生动物零部件和产品以及其他违法行为的人。

He takes it to heart that whole populations of animals can get killed off.

他牢记整个动物种群可能会被杀死。

His philosophy--

他的哲学——

Wildlife dies without making a sound.

野生动物死时不发出任何声音。

So the only voice it's got is yours.

所以它唯一的声音就是你的。

And as a law enforcement officer, if you're not squalling like a smashed cat-- and my pardon to the cat lovers out there-- then you're not doing your job.

作为一名执法人员，如果你没有像一只被打碎的猫一样嚎叫——请原谅外面的爱猫人士——那么你就没有做好你的工作。

In fact, as he says, what this mean to him was total dedication.

事实上，正如他所说，这对他来说意味着完全的奉献。

Do whatever had to be done.

做任何必须做的事。

One time he laid in the marsh for 58 hours to catch one particularly egregious duck hunter.

有一次，他在沼泽地里躺了 58 个小时，只为了抓一只特别令人震惊的鸭子猎人。

Another time he got a tip that a poacher was after this one herd of elk.

还有一次，他得到消息称偷猎者正在追捕这群麋鹿。

He slept with the elk to protect them, night after night.

他日夜与麋鹿同眠以保护它们。

But my favorite story of his involves deceit and ingenuity.

但我最喜欢他的故事涉及欺骗和独创性。

It was when Terry was still in his 20s, a fish and game warden in Eureka, California.

那是特里二十多岁的时候，他是加利福尼亚州尤里卡的鱼类和狩猎管理员。

He was what they called the floating game warden, which meant that he would cover for three other officers when they were sick or on leave.

他就是他们所说的浮动狩猎管理员，这意味着当其他三名官员生病或休假时，他会顶替他们。

And in those days, we had salmon like you couldn't believe in Northern California.

在那些日子里，我们在北加州吃到了令人难以置信的鲑鱼。

They don't so much anymore.

他们不再那么多了。

An awful lot of the species have dwindled away due to a lot of environmental problems and illegal take.

由于许多环境问题和非法捕捞，许多物种已经减少。

But, gosh, we had salmon everywhere.

但是，天哪，我们到处都有鲑鱼。

If you weren't careful, when you drank a glass of water, you'd find a salmon in it.

如果你不小心，当你喝一杯水时，你会发现里面有一条鲑鱼。

I mean they were really plentiful.

我的意思是它们真的很丰富。

And it was part of my job to check the salmon fishermen because we had an awful lot of outlaws that would snag them, dynamite them, gillnet them, just people shooting them in the shallows when they were going up through the riffles.

检查鲑鱼渔民是我工作的一部分，因为我们有很多不法之徒，他们会抓住他们，炸死他们，刺网他们，当他们穿过浅滩时，人们会在浅滩射击他们。

I mean it was just unbelievable.

我的意思是这简直令人难以置信。

He says it was especially a problem on the Eel River, near Fortuna, California, where men were illegally fishing in the middle of the night.

他说，在加利福尼亚州福图纳附近的鳗鱼河上，这个问题尤其严重，人们在半夜非法捕鱼。

The law said they had to stop a half hour after sunset.

法律规定他们必须在日落后半小时停止。

But they would be there at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning.

但他们会在凌晨 2:00 或 3:00 到达那里。

And they were able to haul in usually huge catches because the fish there were resting in pools in the river like-- OK, like sitting ducks, if I could just mix animal metaphors for a second.

他们能够捕获通常巨大的渔获，因为那里的鱼在河里的水池里休息，就像——好吧，就像坐着的鸭子，如果我能混合一下动物的比喻的话。

And these fishermen used this special glow-in-dark lure that was just unstoppable.

这些渔民使用了这种特殊的夜光诱饵，势不可挡。

They would shine a flashlight on this lure.

他们会用手电筒照射这个诱饵。

And it would glow, called a Glo Pup.

它会发光，被称为“Glo Pup”。

In the middle of the night--

半夜的时候——

That bright lure would be going through a dark pool.

那个明亮的鱼饵会穿过一个黑暗的水池。

These King salmon would just instinctively strike at it.

这些王鲑会本能地攻击它。

And these guys were catching fish like crazy.

这些家伙疯狂地抓鱼。

And these were 35, up to 60, pound King salmon, that were heading upstream to spawn.

这些是 35 条、最多 60 磅的王鲑，正向上游产卵。

And it was a terrible bit of destruction on the fish population.

这对鱼类种群造成了可怕的破坏。

Because they wouldn't get a chance to spawn?

因为他们没有机会产卵？

Yeah.

是的。

They wouldn't.

他们不会。

I mean they just flat didn't get out of that pool.

我的意思是他们只是没有离开那个游泳池。

But these illegal fishermen were hard to catch because they set up lookouts on the road, they would see Terry and the other wardens coming.

但这些非法渔民很难抓到，因为他们在路上设立了望台，他们会看到特里和其他看守过来。

Then, one day, Terry got an idea.

然后，有一天，特里想到了一个主意。

It came to him when his dog brought him an old leather welder's glove that it had found.

当他的狗给他带来一只发现的旧皮焊工手套时，他突然想到了这一点。

And then he borrowed a wetsuit from his buddy, who was--

然后他从他的好友那里借了一件潜水服，他是——

Pretty much my size.

和我的尺寸差不多。

I was 6' 4", 300 in those days.

那时我身高 6 英尺 4 英寸，300 岁。

And I'm dressed and got into the wetsuit.

我穿好衣服并穿上潜水衣。

And then inside the wetsuit, I had a citation book in a plastic bag and a three-cell flashlight, zipped it up.

然后在潜水服里面，我有一本装在塑料袋里的引文书和一个三芯手电筒，拉上拉链。

And I walked into the river.

我走进了河里。

And like a damn dummy, there all by myself, 30 foot of water, colder than the dickens.

就像一个该死的假人一样，我一个人呆在 30 英尺深的水里，比狄更斯还冷。

Well, I don't if I was floating.

好吧，如果我漂浮的话我不会。

I was doing as sinking as I was doing floating because I was trying to be quiet.

我一边下沉一边漂浮，因为我试图保持安静。

Well, no. But I knew which way the river was flowing.

嗯，不。但我知道河流流向哪个方向。

And I knew when my feet touched, I'd be in shallow water.

我知道当我的脚接触时，我就会进入浅水区。

So I was swimming against the current.

所以我是逆水行舟。

And I knew in my mind what Singley Pool looked like.

我心里清楚单身池是什么样子。

At the headwaters of Singley Pool, I could see Glo Pups flying through the air.

在辛格利池的源头，我可以看到格洛幼崽在空中飞翔。

Three of them were fishing.

其中三个人正在钓鱼。

One guy was just standing there.

一个人就站在那里。

So I just kept swimming towards them and trying to get to their lures.

所以我就继续游向它们并试图抓住它们的鱼饵。

And I'd move my hand back out of the leather glove to where just my fingers are inside the palm part of the glove.

我会将手从皮手套中移回只有手指位于手套手掌部分内的位置。

And the leather glove fingers are just kind of dangling out there with no fingers in them.

皮手套的手指只是悬在那里，里面没有手指。

This is the idea that he got when the dog brought him this glove.

这是当狗给他带来这只手套时他的想法。

And when finally a lure came by kind of close, I slapped at it.

当最后一个诱饵接近时，我拍打了它。

And I missed the first one.

我错过了第一个。

And I heard one of the guys say, "god, did you hear that salmon roll out there?" Of course, you can't see anything.

我听到其中一个人说：“天哪，你听到鲑鱼在那里滚动了吗？”当然，你什么也看不到。

And I'm out there in the river in a dark wetsuit, with no light on.

我穿着深色潜水衣在河里，没有开灯。

And the next one came by and it was close enough.

下一个也过来了，而且已经足够接近了。

And I grabbed it.

我抓住了它。

And it hooked onto the glove, the finger part of the glove.

它钩在手套上，即手套的手指部分。

And I gave a big jerk.

我猛地一抖。

And I heard, zhrrz.

我听到了，zhrrz。

And he said, "fish on.

他说：“继续钓鱼吧。”

Fish on."

上鱼吧。”

I'm flopping and splashing, hanging onto this guy's lure as he's pulling.

我扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通扑通的在这家伙拉动的时候抓住了他的鱼饵。

And I'm slapping my left hand in the water, like the fish is fighting.

我用左手拍打水里，就像鱼在打架一样。

And he kept saying, "gosh, it's a big one.

他一直说：“天哪，这是一件大事。

It's huge." I kept pulling and tugging.

太大了。”我不停地拉扯。

And you're floating too.

而你也在漂浮。

Terry Grosz Oh, yeah.

特里·格罗兹 哦，是的。

So he's getting the feeling of like this is what it's like to reel in--

所以他感觉这就是陷入困境的感觉——

Yep.

是的。

I'm pulling against his line.

我正在反对他的路线。

And I'm jerking it.

我正在猛拉它。

And then I'm jerking line out.

然后我就猛地拉线。

Because I know if they see me, once I get close to shore, they're going to run.

因为我知道如果他们看到我，一旦我靠近岸边，他们就会逃跑。

So I got to keep them kind of close at hand.

所以我必须把它们放在手边。

So the guy that's got me is getting really excited.

所以带我来的那个人真的很兴奋。

And finally he said, "god, this the biggest salmon I ever got.

最后他说：“天啊，这是我吃过的最大的鲑鱼。

I bet it weighs a hundred pounds." Well, he was 200 pounds off.

我敢打赌它重一百磅。”好吧，他减重了 200 磅。

And finally I heard somebody say, "get the net.

最后我听到有人说：“把网拿来。

Get the net." And another voice said, "get the net, heck-- get a gun."

拿网。”另一个声音说，“拿网，哎呀——拿把枪。”

Terry says he was too young and dumb to get scared about that.

特里说他还太年轻、太笨，不会对此感到害怕。

And they didn't get a gun.

而且他们没有拿到枪。

Anyway, finally I felt my feet hit the bottom, where I could walk.

不管怎样，我终于感觉到我的脚触到了底部，我可以走路了。

So I kept tugging and pulling, and tugging and pulling.

于是我就一直拉啊拉啊拉啊拉啊。

And he's groaning.

他在呻吟。

And it was hard to keep from laughing because I knew this guy was going to be surprised.

我很难忍住笑，因为我知道这家伙会感到惊讶。

Anyway, I finally got right up on them.

无论如何，我终于站到了他们的一边。

And like I said, it's dark as the dickens.

就像我说的，天黑得像狄更斯一样。

And then I turned on my little three-cell flashlight.

然后我打开了我的三芯小手电筒。

And I said, "good morning, gentleman.

我说：“早上好，先生。

State fish and game warden, you're under arrest."

州鱼类和狩猎管理员，你被捕了。”

The guy that had me, he's got the pole almost doubled, he's pulling so hard.

那个拉住我的家伙，他的杆子几乎翻了一番，他拉得很用力。

And he goes, "oh, oh, oh."

他说：“哦，哦，哦。”

He dropped to the ground.

他倒在地上。

Terry thought he gave him a heart attack.

特里认为他让他心脏病发作。

But he came to.

但他醒悟了。

He was fine.

他很好。

The guys on either side of him, two of them were attorneys.

他两边的人，其中两个是律师。

They just stood there.

他们只是站在那里。

They didn't even move.

他们甚至没有动。

And I think it was just out of shock.

我认为这只是出于震惊。

So I walked up on the bank and then I had them because I was within grabbing distance.

所以我走到河岸上，然后我就抓住了它们，因为我就在可以抓住的距离之内。

And when I got all through, I had them sign the citations.

当我完成所有工作后，我让他们在传票上签名。

I put the cite book back in my plastic bag.

我把引用书放回塑料袋里。

Put that back inside the wetsuit.

将其放回潜水衣内。

Said do you have any more questions, gentlemen?

先生们，你们还有什么问题吗？

And they're still in shock.

他们仍然处于震惊之中。

So I gather up all their fishing rods because I seized it.

所以我收集了他们所有的鱼竿，因为我抓住了它们。

It was illegal gear.

这是非法装备。

And into the river I walked and quietly swam away.

我走进河里，静静地游走了。

I should say, we checked with the public affairs officer at the Fish and Wildlife office where Terry worked.

我应该说，我们咨询了特里工作的鱼类和野生动物办公室的公共事务官员。

And he confirmed that, yes, this was a thing for a while back in the day, game wardens emerging out of the rivers to catch illegal fishing.

他证实，是的，这种情况在当时已经有一段时间了，狩猎管理员从河里出来抓捕非法捕鱼。

Terry tells the story in his memoir, Wildlife Wars.

特里在他的回忆录《野生动物战争》中讲述了这个故事。

Terry says, unconventional methods, that is just what's called for sometimes.

特里说，非常规方法有时正是需要的。

Later today on our radio program, That's One Way to Do It, we have two stories of people who make choices that are very different from what is expected of them, including a woman who cozied up to one of America's enemies, looking to fix a problem here at home.

今天晚些时候，在我们的广播节目《这是一种方法》中，我们讲述了两个故事，讲述的是人们做出的选择与人们对他们的期望大相径庭，其中包括一名向美国的敌人示好的女人，希望解决国内的问题。

I'm talking about people who come to the fork in the river of salmon and they swim down the path less traveled.

我说的是那些来到鲑鱼河岔口的人们，他们沿着人迹罕至的小路游去。

And that makes all the difference.

这就是一切的不同之处。

Stay with us.

留在我们身边。

Act One, Sex, Boyhood and Politics in South Carolina.

第一幕，南卡罗来纳州的性、童年和政治。

So this is, of course, a perfect election year for the theme That's One Way to Do it.

因此，对于“这是一种方法”这个主题来说，当然是一个完美的选举年。

The That's One Way to Do It candidate, Donald Trump, is crushing his adversaries with unconventional politicking; Bernie Sanders, a very similar story.

“这是一种方法”的候选人唐纳德·特朗普正在用非常规的政治手段粉碎他的对手。伯尼桑德斯，一个非常相似的故事。

One our producers, Zoe Chace, was in South Carolina this last month and was surprised by some of the voters as well, one in particular.

我们的制片人佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）上个月在南卡罗来纳州，也对一些选民（尤其是其中一位）感到惊讶。

Zoe Chace I was traveling around the state talking to groups like, Students for Trump--

佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 我在全州各地与“支持特朗普的学生”等团体交谈——

Zoe Chace --a group of high schoolers.

Zoe Chace——一群高中生。

That's how I happened to talk to Alex Chalgren.

这就是我碰巧与亚历克斯·查格伦交谈的方式。

He's one of the most oddly formal 18-year-olds I've ever met.

他是我见过的 18 岁年轻人中最古怪的人之一。

Alex Chalgren My name is Alex Chalgren.

亚历克斯·查格伦 我的名字是亚历克斯·查格伦。

I'm the South Carolina director for Students for Trump.

我是特朗普学生南卡罗来纳州主任。

And I live in Columbia, South Carolina.

我住在南卡罗来纳州哥伦比亚市。

Zoe Chace So put together, he made me nervous.

佐伊·切斯 总而言之，他让我感到紧张。

After he told me where he was from, I asked him where he was from.

当他告诉我他来自哪里后，我问他来自哪里。

Alex Chalgren We are in Columbia, South Carolina.

Alex Chalgren 我们在南卡罗来纳州哥伦比亚。

We're at the Blue Marlin, more specifically, sort of a seafood restaurant, local, yeah, restaurant.

我们在 Blue Marlin，更具体地说，是一家海鲜餐厅，是的，当地的餐厅。

Zoe Chace I could tell right away that Alex is one of those kids that adults adore.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 我立刻就看出亚历克斯是成年人喜爱的孩子之一。

He's like a little old person.

他就像一个小老头。

I was sitting around this outside table with the high schoolers for Trump.

我和特朗普的高中生们坐在外面的桌子旁。

And Alex stood out in a million ways from the group.

亚历克斯在这群人中以一百万种方式脱颖而出。

He's the only black kid, the only one in a tie, biggest smile, loudest laugh, super friendly, and charismatic.

他是唯一的黑人孩子，唯一打领带的人，笑容最灿烂，笑声最大，超级友好，而且很有魅力。

He's just striking.

他太引人注目了。

So it wasn't that surprising when he mentioned offhand that he'd been chosen to ask a question at the first Republican debate.

因此，当他随口提到他被选中在第一场共和党辩论中提问时，这并不奇怪。

Debate Moderator I really want to get to a Facebook questioner.

辩论主持人 我真的很想采访一位 Facebook 提问者。

His name is Alex Chalgren.

他的名字叫亚历克斯·查格伦。

And he has the following question.

他有以下问题。

Alex Chalgren My question is, how would the candidates stop the treacherous actions of ISIS, ISIL, and it's growing influence in the US if they were to become president?

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren） 我的问题是，如果候选人成为总统，他们将如何阻止 ISIS、ISIL 及其在美国日益增长的影响力的危险行为？

Alex Chalgren And then my Instagram, my Twitter, my phone just started ringing off the hook.

Alex Chalgren 然后我的 Instagram、Twitter、手机就开始响个不停。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

It was amazing.

太棒了。

It was a huge-- it was a huge thing.

这是一件巨大的事情——这是一件巨大的事情。

[LAUGHTER] That really changed my life for the better.

[笑声] 这确实让我的生活变得更好了。

Zoe Chace It changed his life because not long after that, a group called Students for Trump reached out to Alex on Instagram.

佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 这改变了他的生活，因为不久之后，一个名为“特朗普学生”的组织在 Instagram 上联系了亚历克斯。

They asked Alex if he would get involved in the Trump campaign.

他们问亚历克斯是否会参与特朗普的竞选活动。

And that quick, Alex became an active Trump supporter.

很快，亚历克斯就成为了特朗普的积极支持者。

Now, Alex was already a conservative for all the reasons that Republicans like Republicans more than Democrats.

现在，亚历克斯已经是一名保守派，因为共和党人比民主党人更喜欢共和党人。

Alex Chalgren I've had to work to where I am today, education and things like that.

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren） 我必须通过工作、教育和类似的事情才能达到今天的水平。

And I was adopted.

我被收养了。

I've had work to where I am.

我已经工作到了现在的位置。

Because I was born to a very destitute family.

因为我出生在一个非常贫困的家庭。

And so seeing someone like Bernie Sanders saying that he's going to redistribute the wealth and sort of give free college and free education and all that sort of humbug.

因此，看到像伯尼·桑德斯这样的人说他将重新分配财富，并提供免费大学和免费教育以及诸如此类的骗局。

Then I say to myself, he doesn't appreciate those that have nothing and have had to work so diligently to have a future.

然后我对自己说，他不欣赏那些一无所有、必须努力工作才能有未来的人。

Because I plan on going to law school and all that sort good jazz.

因为我打算去法学院和所有那些好的爵士乐。

Zoe Chace And when I asked him the question I was asking everybody I was meeting down there, why Trump, Alex gave me a reason I did not expect.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 当我问他这个问题时，我问的是我在那里会面的每个人，为什么是特朗普，亚历克斯给了我一个我没想到的理由。

I was like wait, did I hear right?

我当时就想等等，我没听错吧？

Your main concern is what?

您主要关心的是什么呢？

Alex Chalgren Yeah.

亚历克斯·查格伦 是的。

Trump is fine with gay marriage, thank goodness.

谢天谢地，特朗普对同性婚姻很满意。

And he's a realist.

他是一个现实主义者。

He knows that as society moves on, we must move on.

他知道，随着社会的进步，我们也必须继续前进。

That's a part of it.

这是其中的一部分。

Zoe Chace Gay marriage, that's not even an issue anymore, I thought.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 同性婚姻，我想这已经不再是问题了。

This was mid-January when I met Alex, pre-Iowa, pre-New Hampshire.

那是一月中旬，我在爱荷华州之前、新罕布什尔州之前遇到了亚历克斯。

It had not come up in the debates much.

这个问题在辩论中并未出现太多。

The candidates were not talking about it.

候选人没有谈论这个。

And it's Alex's biggest issue?

这是亚历克斯最大的问题吗？

Alex Chalgren That's why I picked him really.

Alex Chalgren 这就是我真正选择他的原因。

That's why I picked him.

这就是我选择他的原因。

Because my biggest concern is gay marriage and the economy.

因为我最关心的是同性婚姻和经济。

For example, if it comes down to Ted Cruz or Bernie Sanders, I might not vote or I might vote for Bernie Sanders.

例如，如果归结为特德·克鲁兹或伯尼·桑德斯，我可能不会投票，也可能会投票给伯尼·桑德斯。

Zoe Chace That's how big gay marriage is to you?

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 这就是同性婚姻对你来说有多重要？

Alex Chalgren Yeah.

亚历克斯·查格伦 是的。

Honestly.

老实说。

I mean I'll tell you why.

我的意思是我会告诉你原因。

I'll tell you why.

我会告诉你原因。

I'm gay.

我是同性恋。

And so it's big for me.

所以这对我来说很重要。

And everyone knows I'm gay.

每个人都知道我是同性恋。

Everyone knows I'm gay.

每个人都知道我是同性恋。

My parents know.

我父母知道。

Everyone knows.

每个人都知道。

But yeah, that's-- where are you all going?

但是，是的，那就是——你们要去哪里？

Zoe Chace The other students for Trump kids scurry off to a corner to consult after this remark.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）听完这句话，特朗普孩子的其他学生赶紧跑到角落里咨询。

And I find out it's because they're worried I'll lump them in with Alex and peg them as Sanders supporters over Cruz.

我发现这是因为他们担心我会把他们和亚历克斯混为一谈，并将他们视为桑德斯的支持者而不是克鲁兹。

Trump's record on gay marriage at that point, scant at best.

特朗普当时在同性婚姻问题上的记录充其量也是微不足道的。

Not one of his applause lines, not getting much mention at all.

他的台词没有一句掌声，也没有得到太多提及。

I guess Alex can believe what he wants.

我想亚历克斯可以相信他想要的。

Ted Cruz, proudly evangelical, proudly against gay marriage.

特德·克鲁兹 (Ted Cruz) 自豪地信仰福音派，自豪地反对同性婚姻。

So that's how Alex made his choice.

这就是亚历克斯做出的选择。

Then Alex tells me he's managed to alienate and confuse lots of people with his peculiar brand of politics.

然后亚历克斯告诉我，他成功地用他独特的政治风格疏远了很多人，并使他们感到困惑。

Trump haters turned against him on social media.

特朗普的仇恨者在社交媒体上转而反对他。

Alex Chalgren Social media-wise, you know I post a lot about Trump since I'm active in this organization and somewhat in the campaign.

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren）在社交媒体方面，你知道我发布了很多关于特朗普的帖子，因为我活跃在这个组织中，并且在某种程度上参与了竞选活动。

I've lost a ton of followers, a ton of followers.

我失去了很多追随者，很多追随者。

On Snapchat, a couple hundred.

在 Snapchat 上，有几百个。

I know that's pretty substantial.

我知道这是相当可观的。

I know I've lost about a hundred people on Instagram.

我知道我在 Instagram 上失去了大约一百个人。

Zoe Chace Alex is big into Trump.

佐伊·切斯·亚历克斯很喜欢特朗普。

Like, he's making sacrifices.

就像，他正在做出牺牲。

He says he's lost friends.

他说他失去了朋友。

Other black kids at school make fun of him.

学校里的其他黑人孩子取笑他。

He's gotten into big fights with his Muslim friends too, like after he posted some anti-Muslim comments from Trump on his Snapchat.

他也与穆斯林朋友发生过激烈争吵，比如他在 Snapchat 上发布了特朗普的一些反穆斯林评论。

Alex Chalgren Last week, one of my Islamic friends asked me, why do you support Trump?

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren）上周，我的一位伊斯兰朋友问我，你为什么支持特朗普？

And I said I'm not against Islam.

我说过我不反对伊斯兰教。

I'm not against Muslims.

我并不反对穆斯林。

I'm against Islamic extremism.

我反对伊斯兰极端主义。

So I'm not against you at all.

所以我根本不反对你。

And she doesn't feel that.

而她却没有这样的感觉。

She feels like I'm against her.

她觉得我在反对她。

And she said, well, Trump wants to keep out all the Muslims.

她说，好吧，特朗普想把所有穆斯林拒之门外。

And I said first off, you're an American citizen.

我首先说，你是美国公民。

So you have nothing to fear in that regard.

所以在这方面你没有什么可担心的。

We're not going to kick you out of the country.

我们不会把你赶出这个国家。

You're an American citizen.

你是美国公民。

You were born here.

你出生在这里。

And then also your parents, who, yes, aren't American citizens, they've given so much to this society.

还有你的父母，是的，他们不是美国公民，他们为这个社会付出了很多。

And we don't have to worry about you potentially being part of ISIS or ISIL.

我们不必担心您可能成为 ISIS 或 ISIL 的成员。

There's a very slight chance of that happening.

发生这种情况的可能性非常小。

Zoe Chace She was annoyed.

佐伊·切斯 她很生气。

But they're still friends.

但他们仍然是朋友。

Was he afraid of hurting her feelings?

他是怕伤害她的感情吗？

Alex Chalgren Yeah.

亚历克斯·查格伦 是的。

Yes.

是的。

I don't want to do that.

我不想那样做。

Yeah.

是的。

I try to be-- it's like I'm walking on shells because I don't want to break the shells.

我努力做到——就像我在贝壳上行走一样，因为我不想打破贝壳。

Zoe Chace Alex jumps feet first into Trump-related awkward situations.

佐伊·切斯·亚历克斯（Zoe Chace Alex）首先陷入了与特朗普有关的尴尬局面。

Like later that day, we walk over to the USC campus.

就像那天晚些时候，我们步行前往南加州大学校园。

And he flags down college kids walking down the street.

他还向走在街上的大学生挥手示意。

He's very formal, like at his most presentational.

他非常正式，就像他最有表现力的时候一样。

He's inviting them to this debate watch party he's hosting.

他邀请他们参加他主办的这场辩论观看聚会。

Alex Chalgren It's on the 28th.

亚历克斯·查格伦 28 号。

It's the seventh Republican debate.

这是共和党第七次辩论。

It's going to be huge, as Donald Trump says.

正如唐纳德·特朗普所说，这将是巨大的。

So you're more than welcome to come.

所以非常欢迎您的到来。

What is your stance politically?

你的政治立场是什么？

I wouldn't be comfortable having Donald Trump as president.

让唐纳德·特朗普担任总统我会感到不舒服。

Everything that I've seen through the media, it just comes off he's just full of hate.

我通过媒体看到的一切，都表明他充满了仇恨。

And I just don't think Donald Trump is very accepting of all people from different backgrounds.

我只是认为唐纳德·特朗普不太能接受所有来自不同背景的人。

And diversity is a huge thing for me personally.

多样性对我个人来说是一件大事。

But we have to go.

但我们必须走了。

But thanks for talking.

但谢谢你的发言。

Zoe Chace How do you think about how that went?

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）你觉得事情进展如何？

Tell me what you think.

告诉我你的想法。

Alex Chalgren I think it went very civilly.

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren） 我认为这非常有礼貌。

Zoe Chace But is it a hard when people your age say to you like, I don't feel comfortable having him as the president because I think he's being racist?

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）：但是，当你这个年纪的人对你说，我对他担任总统感到不舒服，因为我认为他是种族主义者，这很难吗？

Especially when, like, you're black and she's white and she's kind of looking at you, like, hello.

尤其是当你是黑人，她是白人，她看着你，就像是，你好。

Alex Chalgren I don't know.

亚历克斯·查格伦 我不知道。

For me, I think they think I'm probably mentally off.

对我来说，我认为他们认为我可能精神错乱。

That's true.

确实如此。

Because I am black and I'm supporting someone that they think is xenophobic or racist.

因为我是黑人，我支持他们认为仇外或种族主义的人。

Zoe Chace So what does it feel like to feel like somebody's looking at you like you're insane?

Zoe Chace 那么，如果有人像看疯子一样看着你，那感觉如何？

Alex Chalgren Really, I just say to myself, well, opinions are opinions.

亚历克斯·查格伦 真的，我只是对自己说，好吧，意见就是意见。

And when Donald J.

当唐纳德·J.

Trump is president and he reforms this country, I think they will think differently of him.

特朗普是总统，他改革了这个国家，我认为他们会对他有不同的看法。

Zoe Chace If Donald Trump was like actually, I don't think that gay marriage is OK and I don't support it, would you still vote for him?

佐伊·切斯：如果唐纳德·特朗普实际上是这样的，我认为同性婚姻不好，而且我不支持它，你还会投票给他吗？

Zoe Chace That's a make or break thing for you.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 这对你来说是成败的事。

Alex Chalgren He wouldn't do that, yeah.

Alex Chalgren：他不会那样做，是的。

He wouldn't do that.

他不会那样做。

Zoe Chace This is officially the strangest reason I'd heard from a Republican about how they'd picked their candidate.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 这是我从共和党人那里听到的关于他们如何选择候选人的最奇怪的原因。

Zoe Chace The question is there's a whole party, right, the Democratic Party.

佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 问题是有一个完整的政党，对吧，民主党。

They're pretty much cool with gay people.

他们对同性恋者非常友好。

Could you just be a Democrat?

你能只是一个民主党人吗？

Zoe Chace "Like, are you out of your mind?

Zoe Chace “你疯了吗？

The choices are between a soon to be indicted liar," Alex says, "and a socialist.

亚历克斯说，“选择是在一个即将被起诉的骗子和一个社会主义者之间。

I mean, come on."

我的意思是，来吧。”

I spent two hours with Alex that day.

那天我和亚历克斯一起度过了两个小时。

That was it.

就是这样。

We weren't scheduled to meet again.

我们没有预定再次见面。

Afterward, I went and interviewed other voters, a conservative South Carolina blogger.

之后，我去采访了其他选民，一位南卡罗来纳州的保守派博主。

I drove to Greenville to meet with some morning radio show hosts.

我开车去格林维尔会见一些早间广播节目主持人。

But the whole time I was still wondering about Alex.

但自始至终我仍然对亚历克斯感到好奇。

He seemed like he was in the weirdest position of anyone I was meeting, voting for the first time, so young and intense about his beliefs, which just, like, did not match.

在我所见过的人中，他似乎处于最奇怪的位置，第一次投票，如此年轻，对他的信仰如此强烈，这只是，就像，不匹配。

If gay marriage is your issue, why Trump?

如果同性婚姻是你的问题，为什么是特朗普？

Alex told me that church is the center of his family life.

亚历克斯告诉我，教堂是他家庭生活的中心。

And he's in a very conservative evangelical Christian family.

他出身于一个非常保守的福音派基督教家庭。

He's surrounded by people he loves and respects.

他周围都是他所爱和尊重的人。

I came up with a theory.

我想出了一个理论。

He was using Trump to reconcile two very irreconcilable things about himself-- deeply conservative, super-gay.

他利用特朗普来调和自己身上两个非常不可调和的事情——极度保守、超级同性恋。

Trump, for some reason, is Alex's safe place.

出于某种原因，特朗普是亚历克斯的安全之地。

I made another appointment with Alex.

我和亚历克斯又约了一次。

I had no idea the conversation would lead where it did, which was way beyond Trump.

我不知道谈话会发展到什么程度，这远远超出了特朗普的范围。

Zoe Chace OK.

佐伊·切斯 好的。

So we want to ask you a whole bunch of questions.

所以我们想问你一大堆问题。

I meet him in this conference room at the end of his school day.

在他放学的时候，我在这个会议室见到了他。

And every question I ask him, it's like a trap door opens to some deep and dramatic part of his story that I didn't see coming.

我问他的每一个问题，就像一扇活板门，打开了他故事中一些我没有预见到的深刻而戏剧性的部分。

Like, first thing, we're still making small talk, settling in.

首先，我们仍在闲聊，安顿下来。

There's this rainbow poster on the wall.

墙上有这张彩虹海报。

He points it out.

他指出了这一点。

Zoe Chace So I ask him, do you have any rainbow stuff?

Zoe Chace 所以我问他，你有彩虹的东西吗？

Like what stuff?

比如什么东西？

Alex Chalgren Last year, I was a little bit more bold.

Alex Chalgren 去年，我更加大胆了一些。

Last year was my first year in a public school, a public high school.

去年是我在公立学校、公立高中的第一年。

And it was like-- what was it-- show your character day or something like that.

就像——那是什么——展示你的性格日或类似的事情。

We have these weeks.

我们有这几周的时间。

And so I wore a sign that said, guys only apply.

所以我戴了一个牌子，上面写着“仅限男性申请”。

Sorry girls, in parentheses, down at the bottom.

对不起，女孩们，在括号里，在底部。

And it had the rainbow on both sides.

两边都有彩虹。

And I wore that around the entire school all day long.

我整天都戴着它在整个学校里转悠。

[LAUGHTER] And then people wanted to take pictures with me.

[笑声] 然后人们想和我合影。

Zoe Chace Did you leave the house in that shirt?

佐伊·切斯 你是穿着那件衬衫离开家的吗？

Alex Chalgren Yes.

亚历克斯·查格伦 是的。

I did.

我做到了。

Because, you see, actually at the time, I wasn't with my parents at the time.

因为，你看，实际上当时我并不在父母身边。

So they didn't know about that.

所以他们不知道这件事。

Zoe Chace He was staying with a friend's family for about a month.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 他在朋友的家人家里住了大约一个月。

Things weren't so great at home.

家里的情况不太好。

Alex Chalgren Um, just some family issues, some problems with my dad and stuff.

Alex Chalgren 嗯，只是一些家庭问题，我父亲的一些问题等等。

Zoe Chace This was two minutes into our conversation.

佐伊·查斯 我们的谈话已经进行了两分钟。

But it kept happening.

但这种事一直在发生。

Like, I just kept stumbling into these surprising details.

就像，我只是不断地偶然发现这些令人惊讶的细节。

Zoe Chace Have you ever been to a Pride parade?

Zoe Chace 你参加过骄傲游行吗？

Alex Chalgren No. Well, yes, I have.

亚历克斯·查格伦 没有。嗯，是的，我有。

I have once.

我有过一次。

It was to protest though.

不过是为了抗议。

My dad went and took me to protest.

我爸爸就去带我去抗议。

Zoe Chace Then I asked, I know your mom adopted you when she was on her own.

Zoe Chace 然后我问，我知道你妈妈在独自一人的时候收养了你。

So how did she meet your dad?

那么她是怎么认识你爸爸的呢？

Alex Chalgren Well, basically what happened is that I needed a manly influence, or that's what some of the elders in our church at the time thought.

亚历克斯·查格伦：嗯，基本上发生的事情是我需要一种男子气概的影响力，或者说这就是我们教会当时的一些长老的想法。

And so he came into the picture through a connection in our church.

因此，他通过我们教会的关系进入了我们的视野。

And then they fell in love.

然后他们坠入爱河。

It was my choice.

这是我的选择。

Alex Chalgren She said if I didn't want him as a dad, yeah, she wouldn't make me have someone that wouldn't be good, especially after adopting me.

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren）她说，如果我不想让他当爸爸，是的，她不会让我有一个不好的人，尤其是在收养我之后。

Zoe Chace Alex's parents are not OK with him being gay.

佐伊·切斯·亚历克斯的父母不同意他是同性恋。

They're evangelical Christians.

他们是福音派基督徒。

They believe in the literal word of the Bible and raised Alex that way.

他们相信圣经的字面意思，并以这种方式抚养亚历克斯。

But it's also clear that it's a loving home, with this big extended family, who all adore Alex.

但同样清楚的是，这是一个充满爱的家，有这个大家庭，他们都喜欢亚历克斯。

Before he was adopted, his life was rough-- foster home, to back with his biological parents, to group home, to foster home.

在被收养之前，他的生活很坎坷——寄养家庭、回到亲生父母身边、集体之家、寄养家庭。

He was really unhappy.

他真的很不高兴。

But what could he do?

但他能做什么呢？

He was a kid.

他还是个孩子。

And then he met his mom.

然后他遇见了他的妈妈。

Alex and his adopted mom are incredibly close.

亚历克斯和他的养母关系非常亲密。

Alex's face just lights up when he talks about her.

当亚历克斯谈到她时，他的脸就容光焕发。

When he was in third grade, she was his teacher.

当他三年级时，她是他的老师。

And then she adopted him.

然后她收养了他。

It's almost romantic sounding, like they yearned to be a family as soon as they met.

这听起来几乎是浪漫的，就像他们一见面就渴望成为一家人一样。

Alex Chalgren But I'd been asking her for about a year, are going to adopt me?

Alex Chalgren 但我已经问她大约一年了，她要收养我吗？

Zoe Chace How did you think to ask that?

佐伊·切斯 你怎么想到要问这个问题的？

Alex Chalgren I don't know.

亚历克斯·查格伦 我不知道。

I've been praying for years to have a mom and a dad.

多年来我一直祈祷能有一个妈妈和爸爸。

I just connected.

我刚刚连接。

It's inaffable.

真是令人难以忍受。

Ineffable.

不可言喻。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I'm trying to use my new words, ineffable.

我正在尝试使用我的新词，不可言喻。

Yeah, sort of the unspeakable.

是的，有点难以言表。

Zoe Chace When Alex's parents found out he was gay, it was as dramatic as things can get in those sort of situations.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 当亚历克斯的父母发现他是同性恋时，在这种情况下事情会变得非常戏剧化。

Alex says they suspected it and read his journal, where he had written about boys.

亚历克斯说，他们对此表示怀疑，并阅读了他的日记，其中他写了关于男孩的文章。

This was in eighth grade.

那是八年级的时候。

He had to leave school immediately and his parents started homeschooling him.

他不得不立即退学，他的父母开始在家教育他。

And they brought in their church.

他们带来了他们的教堂。

Alex Chalgren And they wanted to nip this in the bud.

Alex Chalgren 他们想将其消灭在萌芽状态。

Snap, cut it, make sure I was straight.

折断，剪断，确保我是直的。

And I was like a-- yeah.

我就像是——是的。

So the clergy came down, sat with me, the elders and people.

于是神职人员下来，与我、长老和人们坐在一起。

And they read from scripture and everything.

他们读圣经和一切。

And I was just sitting there quietly.

而我只是静静地坐在那里。

At first I saw it as like, oh, my goodness.

起初我觉得，哦，天哪。

This is a sin.

这是一种罪孽。

I can't believe this.

我简直不敢相信这一点。

I'm going to go hell.

我要下地狱了。

Oh, my god, I'm going to burn in hell for all eternity.

噢，我的上帝，我将在地狱中永远燃烧。

And so they're reading from scripture.

所以他们正在读圣经。

And they're saying, this is what the scripture says, man shall not lie with another man, whatever.

他们说，这就是圣经所说的，人不可与另一个人说谎，无论如何。

And the more that happened, the harder I became.

发生的事情越多，我就越难。

I was less soft.

我不那么柔软。

And then my mom got a therapist for me, another one, a different one, for me being gay.

然后我妈妈为我找了一位治疗师，另一位，另一位，因为我是同性恋。

Zoe Chace Was this one of those therapists who is like, I'm going to help you be not gay?

Zoe Chace 这是那些会说“我要帮助你不再是同性恋”的治疗师之一吗？

Alex Chalgren Yeah.

亚历克斯·查格伦 是的。

He was a preacher [LAUGHS] with the Presbyterian therapists' organization.

他是长老会治疗师组织的传教士[笑]。

He didn't do anything.

他什么也没做。

I just told him I'm gay.

我刚刚告诉他我是同性恋。

I said this is what's going to happen.

我说这就是将要发生的事情。

I'm gay.

我是同性恋。

But you can talk about how I can have a better relationship with my parents.

但你可以谈谈我如何才能与父母建立更好的关系。

Zoe Chace I have a theory, sort of.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 我有一个理论。

It's not really a theory.

这实际上并不是一个理论。

But I'm wondering it.

但我很好奇。

Zoe Chace I'm wondering if a major reason that you're supporting Donald Trump so hard, that you're going in so hard for Trump, is because it's a way to express that you're gay, that that matters to you, and still keep your tie with being a Republican?

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）我想知道你如此大力支持唐纳德·特朗普、你如此大力支持特朗普的主要原因是否是因为这是一种表达你是同性恋的方式，这对你来说很重要，并且仍然保持你作为共和党人的联系？

Because you've grown up around all Republicans and being a conservative is a big part of your upbringing.

因为你是在所有共和党人的环境中长大的，保守派是你成长过程中的一个重要组成部分。

Alex Chalgren Yeah.

亚历克斯·查格伦 是的。

I wouldn't 100 percent disagree with that.

我不会百分百不同意这一点。

I guess you would say that.

我猜你会这么说。

It is a way for me to still accept me for being gay.

这是我仍然接受自己是同性恋的一种方式。

However, I can still hold to my Republican principles, some of my Republican principles, without hurting my own people.

但是，我仍然可以坚持我的共和党原则，我的一些共和党原则，而不伤害我自己的人民。

That's why I couldn't support Cruz.

这就是为什么我不能支持克鲁兹。

Zoe Chace Alex's parents are big Cruz supporters.

佐伊·切斯·亚历克斯的父母是克鲁兹的大力支持者。

I asked if they'd talk to me about Alex.

我问他们是否愿意跟我谈谈亚历克斯。

They agreed.

他们同意了。

This his mom, Jan Chalgren.

这是他的妈妈，简·查格伦。

Jan Chalgren I don't see his participating in a gay life as God's plan for his life.

扬·查格伦（Jan Chalgren） 我不认为他参与同性恋生活是上帝对他人生的计划。

I firmly believe that.

我坚信这一点。

Zoe Chace Jane didn't want to get into detail about what happened when she and her husband figured out Alex was gay.

佐伊·切斯·简不想详细讲述当她和她的丈夫发现亚历克斯是同性恋时发生的事情。

But she did talk about what it was like for her.

但她确实谈到了她的感受。

Jan Chalgren Heartbreaking, when that's not what I wanted for him.

简·查格伦（Jan Chalgren）令人心碎，但这不是我想要的。

And I don't believe that's what God desires for him either.

我也不相信这就是上帝对他的期望。

I love him.

我爱他。

I love him to death and will always, always.

我爱他爱得要死，并且永远、永远。

And my husband and I have both told him that.

我和我丈夫都告诉过他这一点。

We will always love you.

我们将永远爱你。

We don't agree.

我们不同意。

Zoe Chace She has the same feeling Alex has.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）她和亚历克斯有同样的感觉。

It hurts to be disagreeing about anything because they're so connected.

在任何事情上意见不一致都会让人很痛苦，因为他们之间的联系如此紧密。

She has the same feelings about meeting Alex that he does about meeting her.

她对见到亚历克斯的感觉和他对见到她的感觉是一样的。

Jan Chalgren Well, one day in November, it was '07, the Secretary of the school knocked on my door and said I have a new student for you, a total surprise.

Jan Chalgren 嗯，十一月的一天，那是 07 年，学校的秘书敲了我的门，说我给你带来了一位新学生，这完全是一个惊喜。

And it was Alex, with his foster mom.

这是亚历克斯和他的养母。

And I brought him in and got him a desk.

我带他进来，给他拿了一张桌子。

And a cute little thing, with his little glasses.

还有一个戴着小眼镜的可爱小东西。

And as time went on, he just captured my heart.

随着时间的推移，他俘获了我的心。

He can carry on a conversation easily with any age person.

他可以轻松地与任何年龄段的人进行交谈。

And he always wanted to talk with me.

他总是想和我说话。

Zoe Chace Did you ever anticipate adopting some kid from your class?

Zoe Chace 你有没有想过收养班上的某个孩子？

Jan Chalgren I never anticipated, never planned for it, never thought.

简·查格伦（Jan Chalgren）我从未预料到，从未计划过，也从未想过。

No. But really, he had my heart.

不，但实际上，他得到了我的心。

And I went through the adoption process.

我经历了收养过程。

And then we started visits.

然后我们开始参观。

Zoe Chace They'd never spent time together outside of the classroom.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）：他们从来没有在教室之外一起度过过时光。

So Alex proposed going to church together.

于是亚历克斯提议一起去教堂。

Jan Chalgren And we did that several times.

Jan Chalgren 我们这样做了好几次。

And then I was able to bring him to my house for a visit.

然后我就可以带他来我家参观。

And I remember him standing in the kitchen, looking at me and saying, "do you think about adopting me?" And I pretty much had to say, "well, we're going to pray about that.

我记得他站在厨房里看着我说：“你考虑收养我吗？”我几乎不得不说：“好吧，我们要为此祈祷。

You and I together cannot talk about that.

你和我不能一起谈论这个。

But I'm talking to your social worker.

但我正在和你的社会工作者谈话。

And we'll just pray and see what the Lord does."

我们只要祈祷，看看主会做什么。”

And the Lord led our hearts together.

主引导我们的心在一起。

He put our family together.

他让我们一家人团结在一起。

And it's been wonderful.

这真是太棒了。

It's been difficult.

这很困难。

Zoe Chace Alex, in his coming out process, I think, didn't want to lose his connection to Christianity.

我认为佐伊·切斯·亚历克斯在出柜过程中并不想失去与基督教的联系。

Eventually, in a way that I now think of as typically Alex, this eternal optimist way, he figured out a way to be gay and be a born again Christian.

最终，他以一种我现在认为典型的亚历克斯的方式，这种永恒的乐观主义方式，找到了一种成为同性恋并成为重生基督徒的方法。

He reconciled these two things that seemed irreconcilable.

他把这两件看似不可调和的事情调和了。

He looked up this alternative interpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and found a way that the scripture itself legitimized gay relationships.

他查找了对所多玛和蛾摩拉故事的另一种解释，并找到了圣经本身使同性恋关系合法化的方法。

And he felt better.

他感觉好多了。

He could be both, gay and Christian.

他可能既是同性恋又是基督徒。

Jan says despite everything they've tried, the therapy, the homeschooling, the ministering--

简说，尽管他们尝试了一切，治疗、家庭教育、施助——

Jan Chalgren He has continued with being very pleased over the political climate.

Jan Chalgren 他继续对政治气候感到非常满意。

When states approve gay marriage, he will post, yay.

当各州批准同性婚姻时，他会发帖，耶。

Jan Chalgren Oh.

扬·查格伦哦。

My hope is in the Lord.

我的希望在主身上。

There's nothing that the Lord can't recover.

没有什么是主不能恢复的。

Nothing he can't redeem.

没有什么是他不能挽回的。

Ted Chalgren You know, he's 18 now.

Ted Chalgren 你知道，他现在 18 岁了。

He's of age.

他已经成年了。

The first thing he did when turned 18, the day he turned 18, he went out and registered to vote.

18岁那一天，他做的第一件事就是出去登记投票。

That's something.

那是一件事。

I mean that is something.

我的意思是那是某事。

Zoe Chace It's Alex's dad though, Ted Chalgren, that's the major Cruz supporter in the family.

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace） 不过，亚历克斯的父亲泰德·查格伦（Ted Chalgren）是家里克鲁兹的主要支持者。

Alex told me he sees Cruz as the most hardline against gay marriage and the most dangerous because he has experience arguing in front of the Supreme Court.

亚历克斯告诉我，他认为克鲁兹是最强硬的反对同性婚姻的人，也是最危险的人，因为他有在最高法院辩论的经验。

So Cruz is the one guy who makes Alex the maddest.

所以克鲁兹是让亚历克斯最疯狂的人。

And Alex's dad knows that.

亚历克斯的父亲知道这一点。

Ted Chalgren What Cruz says is he's for the traditional family.

特德·查格伦（Ted Chalgren） 克鲁兹说他支持传统家庭。

And I guess that's enough of a red flag for the people who embrace the other position, that he's out and the fact that we embrace that.

我想对于那些支持其他立场的人来说，这已经是一个危险信号了，他已经出局了，而我们也接受了这一点。

But he knows that.

但他知道这一点。

I mean we embrace a man and a woman.

我的意思是我们拥抱一个男人和一个女人。

And, yeah, I'm sure he feels some rejection.

是的，我确信他感到有些被拒绝。

And then that probably solidified it.

然后这可能巩固了它。

Zoe Chace What was it like, if you can give me one example, when you found out he was gay?

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace），当你发现他是同性恋时，你能举个例子吗？

Ted Chalgren Oh.

特德·查格伦 哦。

It made me so angry because I am vehemently opposed to that.

这让我很生气，因为我强烈反对这一点。

Now, I have gay acquaintances, even in my work.

现在，我有同性恋熟人，甚至在工作中也是如此。

I mean I just love them.

我的意思是我只是爱他们。

I try to reach out to them and I fail.

我尝试联系他们但失败了。

It just really angered me.

这真的激怒了我。

It broke my heart.

这让我心碎。

It broke my heart for him because I think he has opened up a Pandora's box of real trouble for himself.

这让我心碎，因为我认为他为自己打开了真正麻烦的潘多拉魔盒。

One of the concerns, not the primary concern, is sexually transmitted diseases.

性传播疾病是人们关心的问题之一，但不是主要问题。

And what are they called, STDs.

它们叫什么，性传播疾病。

That really is a concern.

这确实是一个令人担忧的问题。

Zoe Chace Another concern for Ted is suicide rates for gay men.

佐伊·查斯 (Zoe Chace) 特德 (Ted) 担心的另一个问题是男同性恋者的自杀率。

So he confronted Alex with his stats.

所以他向亚历克斯展示了他的统计数据。

Ted Chalgren And he could counter every one.

特德·查格伦 他可以对抗每一个人。

He had done his research.

他已经做了研究。

He could counter all those.

他可以对抗所有这些。

Well, in the general population, you know, yada, yada.

嗯，在一般人群中，你知道，yada，yada。

And so none of that worked.

所以这些都不起作用。

And I was really angry.

我真的很生气。

I would get angry with him quicker about other things just because I'd had this brooding anger at him about that.

我会因为其他事情而更快地对他生气，只是因为我曾为此对他产生过深深的愤怒。

And he ran away.

然后他就逃跑了。

He's run away three or four times.

他已经逃跑了三四次了。

One time he stayed away for some weeks.

有一次他离开了几个星期。

And actually he jumped out of the car when I was driving and ran.

事实上，当我开车的时候，他跳下车就跑了。

He said, let me out of here.

他说，让我离开这里。

Zoe Chace What were you guys talking about?

佐伊·切斯 你们在说什么？

Do you remember?

你是否记得？

Ted Chalgren He was going-- he wanted to apply for this job.

特德·查格伦（Ted Chalgren） 他要去——他想申请这份工作。

Zoe Chace This was a year and a half ago.

佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 这是一年半前的事了。

Things were so tense between them anything could become a big fight.

他们之间的关系非常紧张，任何事情都可能演变成一场大战。

Alex had been offered a job at Hollister, a clothing store at the mall his dad describes as wild.

亚历克斯在霍利斯特找到了一份工作，这是一家服装店，位于他父亲形容为狂野的购物中心内。

Ted Chalgren And I didn't want him work at that place because I wanted him-- because it was over at the mall.

特德·查格伦（Ted Chalgren）：我不想让他在那个地方工作，因为我想要他——因为一切都在商场结束了。

I said, I'm not taking you to interview over there.

我说，我不带你去那边面试。

You need to go over here and get a bag boy job at Publix or go down here to Babham's Feed and Seed and get a job down there toting feed and seed, if they'll hire you.

你需要去这里，在 Publix 找到一份搬运工的工作，或者去这里的 Babham's Feed and Seed 找一份搬运饲料和种子的工作，如果他们愿意雇用你的话。

Because you need to get a job for which you don't require transportation.

因为您需要找到一份不需要交通的工作。

Do you see what I'm saying?

你明白我在说什么吗？

It needs to be walkable.

它需要适合步行。

But he had-- high-falutin'.

但他却——自以为是。

So anyway, he jumped out of the car because I said, "no, I'm not taking you there." And he said something else.

所以无论如何，他跳下了车，因为我说：“不，我不会带你去那里。”他还说了一些别的话。

"So that's way it's going to be?" I said, "absolutely."

“那么事情就会是这样吗？”我说：“当然。”

He said, "I want out.

他说：“我想出去。

Pull over." And I wasn't going to let him order me to pull over.

靠边停车。”我不会让他命令我靠边停车。

You don't order your dad to do something.

你不会命令你爸爸做某事。

He said, "I want out." And he started-- so I slowed down.

他说：“我想出去。”他开始了——所以我放慢了速度。

He bailed.

他保释了。

So there's been some of that combat at home, the real intense sort of combative, you could cut the environment with a knife.

所以在家里发生了一些战斗，真正激烈的战斗，你可以用刀切割环境。

It really started with that coming out, isn't that what they call it?

这真的是从那件事开始的，他们不是这么称呼它的吗？

And Jan and I prayed about it.

简和我为此祈祷。

We wept about it.

我们为此哭泣。

I just sort of-- I think the Lord just jumped over my heart.

我只是——我想主刚刚跳过了我的心。

I said let's just have peace at home.

我说我们就在家安静点吧。

So we have peace at home.

这样我们家里就平安了。

Zoe Chace Right now, with the election season, in the Chalgren household, there is something new to talk about.

佐伊·切斯 (Zoe Chace) 现在，随着选举季节的到来，在查格伦家族中，有一些新的事情可以谈论。

Now, he and his parents debate over Cruz versus Trump, instead of gay, not gay.

现在，他和他的父母争论的是克鲁兹与特朗普，而不是同性恋，而不是同性恋。

Though the conversation sounds kind of similar, it is less painful.

虽然谈话听起来有点相似，但没有那么痛苦。

Ted Chalgren I delight in the victories and the things that Ted Cruz says, the principles and standards he has.

特德·查格伦（Ted Chalgren） 我对胜利和特德·克鲁兹所说的事情以及他所制定的原则和标准感到高兴。

So Alex knows that.

所以亚历克斯知道这一点。

And I know he's supporting Trump.

我知道他支持特朗普。

I've sort of had the hope that this is just a fantasy for him or maybe a fancy, however you want to say that.

我有点希望这对他来说只是一个幻想，或者也许是一个幻想，不管你怎么说。

And he is very gracious with regard to not rubbing in to me the fact that Donald Trump is 800 points ahead of Ted Cruz in all the polls.

他非常客气，没有向我重复唐纳德·特朗普在所有民意调查中领先特德·克鲁兹 800 分的事实。

He's not in my face.

他不在我面前。

He's not.

他不是。

And so I don't get too thrilled in front of him about what he's doing.

所以我不会在他面前对他所做的事情感到太兴奋。

But I'm really proud of him.

但我真的为他感到骄傲。

And I'm really sort of dazzled by how successfully he engages his endeavors and so often accomplishes his goals.

他如此成功地投入自己的努力并经常实现自己的目标，这让我真的有点眼花缭乱。

Zoe Chace So detente.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）如此缓和。

Alex's dad had a strong Christian candidate.

亚历克斯的父亲有一位坚定的基督徒候选人。

Alex had a candidate whom he believed supported gay marriage.

亚历克斯有一位他认为支持同性婚姻的候选人。

Everyone was getting along.

每个人都相处得很好。

And then right as we were having these conversations, this happened.

然后就在我们进行这些谈话时，事情发生了。

Trump went on TV and talked about the Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage.

特朗普在电视上谈论了最高法院对同性婚姻的裁决。

Donald Trump But I would have much preferred that they ruled at a state level and allowed the states to make those rulings themselves.

唐纳德·特朗普 但我更希望他们在州一级进行裁决，并允许各州自己做出这些裁决。

Debate Host But just to button up this up very quickly, sir.

辩论主持人 但只是为了尽快解决这个问题，先生。

Are you saying that if you become president, you might try to appoint justices to overrule the decision on same sex marriage?

你是说如果你成为总统，你可能会尝试任命法官来推翻同性婚姻的决定吗？

Donald Trump I would strongly consider that.

唐纳德·特朗普 我会强烈考虑这一点。

Yes.

是的。

Zoe Chace It was too obvious now.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）现在太明显了。

This thing Alex said would never happen, this thing he'd said mattered so much to him, the reason he'd staked himself on Trump in the first place, it just didn't seem true.

亚历克斯所说的这件事永远不会发生，他所说的这件事对他来说非常重要，他一开始就把自己押在特朗普身上的原因，这似乎并不真实。

So I sat Alex down and asked about it.

所以我让亚历克斯坐下来询问这件事。

Zoe Chace What does it feel like when he says something like that?

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace）说这样的话感觉如何？

Alex Chalgren It doesn't feel anything to me.

Alex Chalgren：我没有什么感觉。

He's saying those sort of things to get the votes.

他说这些话是为了拉选票。

And I understand that.

我明白这一点。

And gay marriage, it's done.

同性婚姻，已经完成了。

It's done.

完成了。

There's no reversing it.

没有办法扭转它。

But Donald Trump, he's just saying it to say it because he needs to get the votes.

但唐纳德·特朗普，他只是这么说，因为他需要获得选票。

He's saying that if he could appoint justices to fix this ruling, he would.

他说，如果他可以任命法官来修正这项裁决，他就会这么做。

I support Trump fully.

我完全支持特朗普。

I support Trump fully.

我完全支持特朗普。

Zoe Chace So maybe is it possible that I sort of overestimated how important the gay rights stance was for you with the Republican candidate you had picked?

佐伊·查斯（Zoe Chace）：所以，也许我有点高估了同性恋权利立场对你选择的共和党候选人的重要性？

Alex Chalgren Here's the thing.

亚历克斯·查格伦 事情是这样的。

I'm not selfish.

我并不自私。

At least I don't think I'm selfish.

至少我不认为我很自私。

And so it would be selfish for me to risk the entire survival of our country off of gay marriage.

因此，对我来说，让我们国家的整个生存都因同性婚姻而冒险是自私的。

Zoe Chace There was something else I noticed talking to Alex this time around, something a little different with him.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 这次与亚历克斯交谈时，我注意到还有一些事情，与他有些不同。

He was so much more into Trump, even than he had been two weeks ago.

他比两周前更喜欢特朗普。

It was like his favorite football team was in the Super Bowl or something.

就好像他最喜欢的橄榄球队参加了超级碗之类的比赛。

He was just googly-eyed for him.

他只是对他睁大了眼睛。

His reasons for supporting Trump no longer came from reasoning out one position to the next.

他支持特朗普的理由不再是从一种立场到另一种立场的推理。

It was more chemical, emotional.

它更具化学性、情感性。

Alex Chalgren I like his persona.

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren）我喜欢他的性格。

I like his stance on domestic policy in regard to building the wall, and building up our security, and his financial policy.

我喜欢他在修建隔离墙、加强安全方面的国内政策以及他的金融政策方面的立场。

I like it.

我喜欢它。

I agree with it.

我同意。

That we need to crush ISIS.

我们需要粉碎伊斯兰国。

We need to deal with the problem.

我们需要解决这个问题。

We need to get rid of the problem.

我们需要解决这个问题。

Alex Chalgren That's like Trump.

亚历克斯·查格伦（Alex Chalgren） 这就像特朗普。

He does this.

他这样做。

Zoe Chace Alex, you've probably figured out by now, fits into no known category of voter.

您现在可能已经发现，佐伊·切斯·亚历克斯不属于任何已知的选民类别。

All the ways that reporters and political consultants slice up populations, they don't apply to him.

记者和政治顾问对民众进行划分的所有方式，都不适用于他。

He's not voting like a black voter, or a young voter, or a Christian voter, or a gay voter, or a Southern voter.

他不像黑人选民、年轻选民、基督教选民、同性恋选民或南方选民那样投票。

But, of course, the way we choose our candidates is not a science.

但是，当然，我们选择候选人的方式并不是一门科学。

It's this alchemical mix of where we grew up, and who we respect, and whether we woke up this morning and were full of hope or full of fear.

这是我们成长的地方、我们尊重的人、以及我们今天早上醒来是充满希望还是充满恐惧的炼金术组合。

And with Trump, maybe with any outsider candidate, Sanders or 2008 Obama, there seem to be so many idiosyncratic personal journeys that lead supporters to him.

对于特朗普来说，也许对于任何局外人候选人，桑德斯或2008年的奥巴马来说，似乎都有很多独特的个人经历将支持者引向他。

In New Hampshire, Trump won men.

在新罕布什尔州，特朗普赢得了男性支持。

He won women.

他赢得了女人。

He won the young people and the old people, people who live in cities and in the country.

他赢得了年轻人和老年人、生活在城市和乡村的人们。

There is this other thing that both Alex's parents said to me separately when I asked why their son was into Trump?

当我问为什么他们的儿子喜欢特朗普时，亚历克斯的父母分别对我说了另一件事？

They said Trump's campaign reached out to Alex, remember.

请记住，他们说特朗普的竞选团队联系了亚历克斯。

Alex liked that.

亚历克斯喜欢这个。

He really wants to be a political organizer.

他真的想成为一名政治组织者。

They think if Rubio's campaign had called, he might be working for Rubio right now.

他们认为，如果卢比奥的竞选团队打电话来，他现在可能会为卢比奥工作。

And the reason he liked Trump, they both said, was something much deeper about Alex, something I didn't see on my own.

他们都说，他喜欢特朗普的原因是亚历克斯更深层次的东西，这是我自己没有看到的。

But they did.

但他们做到了。

Ted Chalgren Because Trump shows power and Alex is about power.

特德·查格伦 因为特朗普展示了权力，而亚历克斯则关乎权力。

Because he was so impotent as a child, he had no control over his life.

因为他从小就无能为力，无法掌控自己的生活。

There's something powerful about Donald Trump.

唐纳德·特朗普身上有一种强大的力量。

And that appeals to Alex.

这对亚历克斯很有吸引力。

When he speaks about his future, I think he pictures himself living like Donald Trump, with a penthouse on the 77th floor of something.

当他谈到自己的未来时，我认为他想象自己像唐纳德·特朗普一样生活，在 77 层有一套顶层公寓。

And he's told Jan and I that we're going to live with him on his ranch.

他告诉简和我，我们将和他一起住在他的牧场上。

He's going to have horses and thousands of acres.

他将拥有马匹和数千英亩土地。

Zoe Chace When I talked to Alex most recently, after talking to his parents, this was the thing that made the most sense, the power vote.

佐伊·切斯（Zoe Chace） 当我最近与亚历克斯交谈时，在与他的父母交谈后，这是最有意义的事情，即权力投票。

Alex Chalgren And you can ask my mom this, ask my dad this.

Alex Chalgren 你可以问我妈妈这个，问我爸爸这个。

I have this sort of like gravitating pull towards people who are successful because I too want to be successful.

我对成功的人有一种吸引力，因为我也想成功。

Yeah.

是的。

I want to be-- not necessarily, I don't focus on wealth.

我想——不一定，我不关注财富。

I focus on power.

我专注于权力。

Because as Kevin Spacey said, in House of Cards, a fool goes after money.

因为正如凯文·史派西在《纸牌屋》中所说，傻瓜追求金钱。

But someone that really seeks to control goes after power.

但真正寻求控制的人却追求权力。

Zoe Chace The power vote, those who want more power than they feel they have right now.

Zoe Chace 权力投票，那些想要比他们现在认为拥有的更多权力的人。

That is a lot of people for a lot of reasons.

由于很多原因，很多人都这样。

That is the category Alex falls into now.

这就是亚历克斯现在属于的类别。

The power vote-- that's Alex Chalgren.

权力投票——那是亚历克斯·查格伦。

Ira Glass Zoe Chace.

艾拉·格拉斯·佐伊·切斯。

She's one of the producers of our show.

她是我们节目的制作人之一。

Coming up, what if you could save thousands of lives each year doing something that most people find morally repugnant?

接下来，如果你每年可以拯救数千人的生命，做一些大多数人认为在道德上令人反感的事情呢？

That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.

芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。

It's This American Life.

这就是美国生活。

I'm Ira Glass.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。

Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme.

当然，每周我们的节目都会选择一个主题。

Today's theme, That's One Way to Do It-- stories of people making choices, the people near to them do not expect.

今天的主题是“这是一种方法”——人们做出选择的故事，而他们身边的人却没有预料到。

We've arrived at Act Two of our program.

我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。

Of course, the main reason that we try unexpected things is when the old things do not work-- necessity, mother of invention, et cetera, et cetera.

当然，我们尝试意想不到的事情的主要原因是旧的东西不起作用——必要性、发明之母等等。

This next story is about something that definitely is not working as well as it could.

下一个故事是关于一些肯定没有发挥其应有作用的东西。

It's something that results in tens of thousands of American lives lost each year.

这每年导致数以万计的美国人丧生。

Stephanie Foo explains.

斯蒂芬妮·福解释道。

Stephanie Foo Here's something you'd think they'd make easy, but instead it's pretty hard-- donating a kidney.

Stephanie Foo：有些事情你可能认为他们会很容易做到，但实际上却非常困难——捐献肾脏。

In 2009, Sigrid Fry-Revere learned just how hard.

2009 年，西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔 (Sigrid Fry-Revere) 才体会到了这一点。

Her friend Maurie's kidney was failing.

她的朋友莫里的肾衰竭了。

He needed a transplant.

他需要移植。

And he's someone who knew the system.

他是了解这个系统的人。

He actually worked at the National Kidney Foundation of Michigan.

他实际上在密歇根国家肾脏基金会工作。

So he knew his chances of getting a kidney were slim because there were over a hundred thousand people on the waiting list for kidneys.

所以他知道自己获得肾脏的机会很小，因为等待肾脏的名单上有超过十万人。

Sigrid Fry-revere So I know this sounds weird.

Sigrid Fry-revere 所以我知道这听起来很奇怪。

But I just knew if I gave Maurie a kidney, he'd take good care of it.

但我只知道如果我给莫里一个肾脏，他会好好照顾它。

It would be going to someone that I'd grown to love and care about.

它将送给我逐渐爱和关心的人。

And I offered to donate to him.

我主动提出要向他捐款。

I said, I'll help you.

我说，我来帮你。

And there was just silence on the phone.

而电话那头，只剩下一片沉默。

Obviously, he was just totally flabbergast.

显然，他简直惊呆了。

And thanked me.

并向我表示感谢。

And I said, well, let's get the ball rolling.

我说，好吧，让我们开始吧。

Stephanie Foo So Sigrid began the process every kidney donor has to go through.

Stephanie Foo So Sigrid 开始了每个肾脏捐赠者必须经历的过程。

She contacted a transplant hospital, which coordinated the donation.

她联系了一家移植医院，由该医院协调捐赠。

There were months of blood tests and paperwork and phone calls.

有几个月的验血、文书工作和电话。

Sigrid Fry-revere I had to do everything.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔 我必须做一切事情。

And when I would talk to Maurie about it, he would say, I can't help you because they really want to make sure I'm not pressuring you into doing this.

当我和莫里谈论这件事时，他会说，我帮不了你，因为他们真的想确保我不会强迫你这样做。

Stephanie Foo Finally, after six months, she had a conference call with a panel from the transplant hospital, a final screening about her decision to donate.

最后，六个月后，她与移植医院的一个小组举行了电话会议，对她的捐赠决定进行了最后的筛选。

They had a lot of questions for her.

他们有很多问题要问她。

But one of the biggest was, what's going to happen to your farm?

但最大的问题之一是，你的农场会发生什么？

Sigrid lives on a farm and had animals that needed taking care of -- donkeys to feed, water to haul.

西格丽德住在一个农场里，有一些需要照顾的动物——要喂驴、要运水。

So she'd arranged for her husband and son to each take a couple weeks off, which would give her a month of recovery time.

因此，她安排丈夫和儿子各休息几周，这样她就有一个月的恢复时间。

But the panel said she might need longer than that.

但专家组表示，她可能需要比这更长的时间。

Sigrid Fry-revere And so when I said "I don't know.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔 所以当我说“我不知道。

I mean maybe I could hire a part-time farmhand, maybe Maurie could help me." And that was the red flag.

我的意思是也许我可以雇一个兼职农场工人，也许莫里可以帮助我。”这就是危险信号。

They said, "he can't do that."

他们说：“他不能这么做。”

And I said "oh, oh, OK.

我说：“哦，哦，好吧。

What should we do then?" And they said, well, "we're going to have to deny your request to donate to Maurie." And I'm like pleading on the phone.

那我们该怎么办？”他们说，好吧，“我们将不得不拒绝你向莫里捐款的请求。”我就像在电话里恳求。

I'm crying.

我哭了。

I'm pleading.

我在恳求。

I'm saying, "well, wait a minute.

我说：“好吧，等一下。

Give me more time.

给我更多时间。

Give me more time.

给我更多时间。

We can figure something out, can't we?"

我们可以想出办法，不是吗？”

I mean, at this point it had been over six months of processing my application.

我的意思是，此时处理我的申请已经超过六个月了。

And then here they are on the phone, telling me, in five minutes, sorry.

然后他们在电话里告诉我，五分钟后，抱歉。

Stephanie Foo Sigrid went and reread the law that governs these things, the National Organ Transplant Act.

斯蒂芬妮·福·西格丽德（Stephanie Foo Sigrid）去重新阅读了管理这些事情的法律，即《国家器官移植法》。

It says recipients can help donors out by paying them out-of-pocket for lodging, and transportation, and lost wages, but nothing else.

它说，受助者可以通过自付费用支付住宿费、交通费和工资损失来帮助捐赠者摆脱困境，但除此之外别无其他。

So if Maurie gave Sigrid a few thousand dollars to hire someone to help around Sigrid's property while she recovered, that would be considered kidney trafficking.

因此，如果莫里给了西格丽德几千美元，请他在西格丽德康复期间雇人帮忙处理她的财产，这将被视为肾脏贩运。

The punishment would be up to five years in prison and a $50,000 fine.

处罚最高可达五年监禁和 5 万美元罚款。

Sigrid Fry-revere The hardest call I ever made-- I mean this quite seriously-- was calling Maurie and saying [SIGHS] they said no. We started over.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔（Sigrid Fry-revere） 我做过的最艰难的电话——我是认真的——打电话给莫里并说[叹息]他们拒绝了。我们重新开始。

But then he developed a heart condition.

但后来他患上了心脏病。

Stephanie Foo It's common for people who have been on dialysis for a long time to get heart conditions.

Stephanie Foo 长期接受透析的人患心脏病是很常见的。

Maurie's heart got so weak he was no longer eligible for a new kidney.

莫里的心脏变得如此虚弱，他不再有资格获得新的肾脏。

Sigrid Fry-revere You're talking three or four months later.

Sigrid Fry-revere 你说的是三四个月后。

So if the transplant had gone ahead, he might still be alive today.

因此，如果移植手术进行的话，他今天可能还活着。

And I should have lied.

我应该撒谎。

I should not have told them that Maurie was willing to help me with the farmhand expenses.

我不应该告诉他们莫里愿意帮助我支付农场工人的开支。

Or I shouldn't have mentioned that my family members could only help out for a month.

或者我不应该提到我的家人只能帮忙一个月。

What I heard from other transplant patients, they just don't mention that money is going to pass between the donor and the recipient.

我从其他移植患者那里听到的，他们只是没有提到金钱将在捐赠者和接受者之间转移。

Stephanie Foo The average wait for a kidney is five years.

Stephanie Foo 等待肾脏的平均时间是五年。

Most patients on dialysis never get one and die within those five years.

大多数接受透析的患者从未接受过透析，并在五年内死亡。

This wasn't Sigrid's first experience with our kidney donation system.

这不是西格丽德第一次使用我们的肾脏捐赠系统。

When Sigrid's son was 10 months old, he lost a kidney to cancer.

西格丽德的儿子 10 个月大时，因癌症失去了一个肾脏。

He's now in his 20s and functioning just fine on his one healthy kidney.

他现在 20 多岁，靠他的一个健康的肾脏运转良好。

But for several years, doctors worried that he might need a transplant.

但多年来，医生一直担心他可能需要移植手术。

That concern led Sigrid to begin studying organ donation.

这种担忧促使西格丽德开始研究器官捐赠。

And she eventually even became a medical ethicist.

她最终甚至成为了一名医学伦理学家。

And in the 30 years she's been studying organ donation since then, she says she's seen how ineffective and even counterproductive our system can be.

此后 30 年来，她一直在研究器官捐赠，她说她已经看到我们的系统是多么低效，甚至适得其反。

Our huge kidney shortage doesn't make a lot of sense because, unlike hearts and lungs, there's no shortage of healthy kidneys, pumping away in most of us, primed for donation.

我们巨大的肾脏短缺没有多大意义，因为与心脏和肺不同，我们大多数人并不缺乏健康的肾脏，它们正在泵出，准备捐赠。

We all have a secret power, kind of like how a starfish can grow a new arm.

我们都有一种秘密的力量，就像海星长出新手臂一样。

If you remove one of our kidneys, the remaining kidney grows by as much as 50% so it can take on the work of its missing partner.

如果您切除其中一个肾脏，剩下的肾脏会生长 50% 之多，这样它就可以承担其缺失伙伴的工作。

So as far as something requiring major abdominal surgery goes, kidney donation is very safe.

因此，对于需要进行腹部大手术的情况来说，捐肾是非常安全的。

And yet a hundred thousand people are sitting on the kidney transplant waiting list.

然而，仍有十万人坐在肾移植等候名单上。

Each year, only a tiny portion of them, just 15%, get a kidney.

每年，只有一小部分人（即 15%）获得肾脏。

Sigrid thought there had to be better answers out there.

西格丽德认为一定有更好的答案。

There had to be a way to get more people to donate their kidneys.

必须有办法让更多的人捐献肾脏。

So she set up a panel where she worked, at the Cato Institute.

因此，她在她工作的卡托研究所成立了一个小组。

Sigrid Fry-revere Welcome to Cato.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔 欢迎来到卡托。

I am the director of bioethics studies here at Cato.

我是卡托生物伦理学研究的主任。

Stephanie Foo And at this panel, this nephrologist, a.k.a.

Stephanie Foo 在这个小组中，这位肾脏病学家，又名。

a kidney doctor, named Benjamin Hippen, he started talking about something that seemed almost too good to be true, a country that had solved their organ crisis.

一位名叫本杰明·希彭（Benjamin Hippen）的肾脏医生，他开始谈论一些似乎好得令人难以置信的事情，一个已经解决了器官危机的国家。

They had a waiting list of people who wanted to donate-- too many donors.

他们有一长串想要捐赠的人的等候名单——捐赠者太多了。

Benjamin Hippen And what you're going to hear today is what lessons can be learned from what's been reported in peer-reviewed journals from a number of different transplant centers in Iran.

本杰明·希彭（Benjamin Hippen）今天您将听到的是，可以从伊朗许多不同移植中心的同行评审期刊的报道中吸取教训。

Stephanie Foo Yep, Iran.

Stephanie Foo 是的，伊朗。

Except, Dr. Hippen explained, the way Iran accomplished this was by doing something no other country in the world allows.

希彭博士解释说，只不过伊朗实现这一目标的方式是通过做世界上其他国家不允许的事情。

In Iran, you can buy a kidney from someone else.

在伊朗，你可以从别人那里购买肾脏。

And it's legal.

而且这是合法的。

Half the panel hated the idea.

一半的专家组讨厌这个想法。

An organ donation policy guy, Sam Crowe, said there are just some things you don't want to let people buy and sell.

器官捐赠政策制定者萨姆·克罗（Sam Crowe）表示，有些东西是你不希望让人们买卖的。

Sam Crowe This might sound crass.

山姆·克罗（Sam Crowe） 这听起来可能很愚蠢。

But the same could be said for child pornography.

但对于儿童色情制品来说也是如此。

The same could be said for the sex slave trade.

性奴隶贸易也是如此。

I mean these are kinds of things that we outlaw because we're going to have a civil society.

我的意思是，这些都是我们禁止的事情，因为我们将拥有一个公民社会。

So we can say that this has anything to do with what we're being proposed.

所以我们可以说这与我们的提议有关。

Child pornography has nothing to do with what we're proposing today.

儿童色情制品与我们今天的提议无关。

We're proposing a situation to solve a terrible problem for out patients.

我们正在提出一种方案来解决门诊患者的可怕问题。

Sigrid Fry-revere The debate essentially degenerated into what is going on in Iran.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔（Sigrid Fry-revere）这场争论本质上退化为伊朗正在发生的事情。

And no one had been there.

那里没有人。

And no one knew what was going on.

没有人知道发生了什么事。

So the whole debate was, I know better than you what's happening there.

所以整个辩论就是，我比你更了解那里发生的事情。

And no Westerner had really studied the Iranian system.

而且没有西方人真正研究过伊朗的制度。

So I was actually kind of angry.

所以我其实有点生气。

I said, well, isn't the answer to what's going on in Iran to go see what's going on in Iran?

我说，好吧，伊朗发生的事情的答案不就是去看看伊朗发生了什么吗？

Stephanie Foo So did you think that paying donors might work?

Stephanie Foo 那么你认为付费捐助者可能有效吗？

Sigrid Fry-revere Yes.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔 是的。

I thought if it's true, how did they do it and did they do it in an ethical way?

我想如果这是真的，他们是如何做到的？他们是否以合乎道德的方式做到这一点？

And if they did do it in an ethical way, my god, we had an answer.

如果他们确实以合乎道德的方式做到了这一点，天啊，我们就有了答案。

Or we could improve on whatever Iran was doing, emulate some of what they were doing in a better way.

或者我们可以改进伊朗正在做的事情，以更好的方式模仿他们正在做的一些事情。

After all, we're America, right?

毕竟，我们是美国，对吧？

Stephanie Foo Sigrid wanted to go to Iran herself and conduct her own research on how Iran's living donor system worked.

斯蒂芬妮·福·西格丽德 (Stephanie Foo Sigrid) 想亲自前往伊朗，对伊朗的活体捐赠系统如何运作进行自己的研究。

She presented this idea to her bosses at Cato, a libertarian think tank.

她向自由主义智库卡托的老板们提出了这个想法。

So you think they'd like the idea of unleashing the power of free markets on organ donation.

所以你认为他们会喜欢释放器官捐赠自由市场力量的想法。

But this was in 2008, when Iran was still firmly a member of the axis of evil.

但这是在2008年，当时伊朗仍然是邪恶轴心的坚定成员。

Cato told her, no way.

卡托告诉她，不可能。

So Sigrid quit and began to plan her trip.

于是西格丽德辞职了，开始计划她的旅行。

In November, 2008, Sigrid and an Iranian-American nephrologist, named Dr. Bajar Bastani, arrived in Iran.

2008年11月，西格丽德和一位伊朗裔美国肾病专家巴贾尔·巴斯塔尼博士抵达伊朗。

They interviewed hundreds of people-- doctors, people who worked donation centers, and, of course, donors and recipients.

他们采访了数百人——医生、捐赠中心的工作人员，当然还有捐赠者和接受者。

Sigrid learned that there are certain rules that everyone in Iran must abide by.

西格丽德了解到，伊朗的每个人都必须遵守某些规则。

Both the donor and the recipient have to be Iranian citizens, for instance.

例如，捐赠者和接受者都必须是伊朗公民。

But beyond that, it's practiced differently from province to province, depending on where you are.

但除此之外，不同省份的做法也有所不同，具体取决于您所在的地区。

And what Sigrid saw at first was pretty disturbing.

西格丽德一开始看到的景象非常令人不安。

Sigrid Fry-revere The first donor I interviewed at the broker told me, if I'm not allowed to sell my kidney, what will I do?

Sigrid Fry-revere 我在经纪人处采访的第一位捐赠者告诉我，如果我不被允许出售我的肾脏，我该怎么办？

Sigrid Fry-revere I'm poor.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔 我很穷。

I'll have to steal or kill someone.

我将不得不偷窃或杀人。

Stephanie Foo In Tehran, Sigrid learned donors and recipients actually haggled over the price of the organ.

斯蒂芬妮·符 (Stephanie Foo) 在德黑兰，西格丽德了解到捐赠者和接受者实际上就器官的价格进行了讨价还价。

There's a base price that the government sets for a kidney.

政府为肾脏设定了一个基本价格。

And it covers a third of that cost.

它涵盖了三分之一的成本。

Anything above is negotiable.

以上任何事情都是可以协商的。

And recipients are able to manipulate the negotiations by playing on the sympathy of the donors.

受援者可以利用捐助者的同情来操纵谈判。

One donor told Sigrid that when he met his recipient, the man's wife and children were crying in the room.

一位捐赠者告诉西格丽德，当他见到接受者时，该人的妻子和孩子正在房间里哭泣。

Then they low-balled him with an offer of 3 million toman, about $3,000.

然后他们向他低价出价 300 万托曼，约合 3000 美元。

Sigrid Fry-revere And so the guide said, they introduced me to the recipient's family and said, "see, look, he's poor, right.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔（Sigrid Fry-revere）所以导游说，他们把我介绍给接受者的家人并说，“看，看，他很穷，对吧。

He can't do any better than this for you."

他对你来说没有比这更好的事情了。”

And he says, "OK, OK, I'll do it for 3 million." And so the guy donated.

他说：“好吧，好吧，我愿意出 300 万。”于是这个人就捐款了。

And then he's sitting next to someone in the waiting room, who got 6 million toman.

然后他坐在候诊室里一个人旁边，这个人有 600 万托曼。

What was clear in Tehran is the balance of power was clearly off in favor of the recipients.

德黑兰的情况很清楚，权力的平衡明显有利于受援者。

Stephanie Foo There were kidney donation centers that were supposed to make sure the transactions were fair.

Stephanie Foo 肾脏捐赠中心应该确保交易公平。

But--

但是——

Sigrid Fry-revere Donors were being cheated.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔 (Sigrid Fry-revere) 捐赠者被欺骗了。

And all of them, more or less, in one form or another, were disappointed.

他们所有人都或多或少地以某种形式感到失望。

And you know, I'm like, oh, my god, everything I thought would be the worst is here.

你知道，我想，哦，天哪，我认为最糟糕的一切都在这里。

I was depressed.

我很沮丧。

I was like, my gosh, if this is what it's really like, then this isn't the answer.

我当时想，天哪，如果这就是它的真实情况，那么这不是答案。

But then I went on to a couple other regions, where I saw models where people generally were happy with the system.

但后来我又去了其他几个地区，在那里我看到了人们普遍对系统感到满意的模型。

Stephanie Foo This was in Isfahan and Mashhad.

Stephanie Foo 这是在伊斯法罕和马什哈德。

And the way these kidney donation centers worked was totally different.

这些肾脏捐赠中心的运作方式完全不同。

People who show up wanting to sell a kidney usually have a problem that money would solve.

那些想要卖肾的人通常都有一个可以用钱解决的问题。

And in Isfahan and Mashhad, the donation centers did a much better job of looking out for their interests.

在伊斯法罕和马什哈德，捐赠中心在照顾他们的利益方面做得更好。

Sigrid Fry-revere Like in Tehran, they would be told, well, the recipient can't pay that much.

Sigrid Fry-revere 就像在德黑兰一样，他们会被告知，收款人付不了那么多钱。

Their family is poor.

他们的家庭很穷。

And we haven't got enough charity money.

我们还没有得到足够的慈善资金。

So you're only going to get half that.

所以你只能得到一半。

Instead, in Isfahan and Mashhad, they would say, OK, how much do you need; what you need it for-- to get out of debt, to start a business, to start a family?

相反，在伊斯法罕和马什哈德，他们会说，好吧，你需要多少；你需要它做什么——摆脱债务、创业、组建家庭？

You want this much for the organ donation.

你想要这么多的器官捐赠。

Let's see if we can do that for you.

让我们看看我们能否为您做到这一点。

If they have to give the donor a little less they'll say, well, let's get you a loan to make up the difference.

如果他们必须给捐赠者少一点，他们会说，好吧，让我们给你贷款来弥补差额。

Because they're considering the donor's needs as well as the recipient's needs.

因为他们会考虑捐赠者的需求以及接受者的需求。

I can't think of one that we interviewed who didn't get the deal they expected and needed.

我想不出我们采访过的哪一个人没有得到他们期望和需要的交易。

Stephanie Foo The kidney centers also tried to provide food, clothing, follow-up care, free health care for the donors and their families.

Stephanie Foo 肾脏中心还努力为捐赠者及其家人提供食物、衣服、后续护理和免费医疗保健。

Sigrid Fry-revere And they also get-- the males, they have two years mandatory military service.

Sigrid Fry-revere 他们还得到——男性，他们有两年义务兵役。

And males who donate get exempted.

捐赠的男性可以得到豁免。

And the reason they get exempted-- and see, this is what I think is kind of beautiful-- they get exempted from military service because they have already served their country and humanity by saving a life.

他们被免除兵役的原因——看，这就是我认为的美好之处——他们被免除兵役，因为他们已经通过拯救生命为国家和人类服务了。

Stephanie Foo It's not that things were perfect in Isfahan or Mashhad.

Stephanie Foo 伊斯法罕或马什哈德的情况并不完美。

There were still plenty of people selling their kidneys out of desperation.

仍然有很多人出于绝望而卖肾。

But Sigrid says the people she interviewed came away feeling good about what they'd done.

但西格丽德说，她采访的人在离开时对自己所做的事情感觉良好。

When Sigrid came back to America from Iran, she thought long and hard about what she'd seen, about how many lives were saved because donors were able to sell their kidneys.

当西格丽德从伊朗回到美国时，她认真思考了自己所看到的一切，思考了有多少人的生命因为捐赠者能够出售肾脏而被拯救。

And then she concluded, nope, definitely not something we should try.

然后她得出结论，不，绝对不是我们应该尝试的事情。

Sigrid Fry-revere I thought this was really good.

Sigrid Fry-revere 我觉得这真的很好。

But I was very hesitant to assume that what works in the Iranian culture would work here.

但我非常犹豫是否认为在伊朗文化中行得通的东西在这里也行得通。

Sigrid Fry-revere That is a political question, OK, because there is so much opposition and misunderstanding what paying a donor means.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔（Sigrid Fry-revere） 好吧，这是一个政治问题，因为有太多的反对和误解向捐助者付款意味着什么。

That would never pass muster, not with the ethicists, not with Congress.

这永远不会通过伦理学家和国会的审查。

But having my expenses covered is a different issue.

但支付我的费用是另一个问题。

I see no problem with that.

我认为这没有问题。

Stephanie Foo So this is what Sigrid believes we should do in America.

Stephanie Foo 所以这就是西格丽德认为我们在美国应该做的事情。

Instead of having people make money off of selling their kidneys, Sigrid says we should just cover their costs.

西格丽德说，我们不应该让人们通过出售肾脏来赚钱，而是应该承担他们的费用。

Right now, it's really expensive to donate, about $5,000 on average.

现在捐款真的很贵，平均大约5000美元。

But that can go up to $20,000, most of that lost wages.

但这可能高达 20,000 美元，其中大部分是工资损失。

Medicare covers the donor's medical expenses.

医疗保险涵盖捐赠者的医疗费用。

But it would help donors out a lot and probably convince others to donate if the government paid for every transplant-related cost-- lost wages, transportation, babysitting, psychological assistance after the surgery.

但如果政府支付所有与移植相关的费用——工资损失、交通费、保姆费、手术后的心理援助费——这将对捐赠者有很大帮助，并可能说服其他人捐赠。

If we could prevent people from losing their jobs for taking time off to donate, Sigrid says this is a first step to treating our donors with the respect they deserve.

西格丽德说，如果我们能够防止人们因为请假捐款而失业，这是让我们的捐赠者得到应有尊重的第一步。

She's tried to get this going herself.

她试图自己让这件事发生。

She founded a nonprofit that raises money to help donors cover their costs.

她创立了一家非营利组织，筹集资金帮助捐助者支付费用。

So far, they've helped support 68 transplants.

到目前为止，他们已经帮助支持了 68 例移植手术。

Other countries, like Ireland and Singapore, have already put systems like this in place, very different systems from what we have now.

其他国家，如爱尔兰和新加坡，已经建立了这样的系统，与我们现在的系统非常不同。

Sigrid Fry-revere You know, when I was turned down to donate, I was insulted and my friend died.

西格丽德·弗莱-里维尔（Sigrid Fry-revere）你知道，当我捐赠被拒绝时，我受到了侮辱，我的朋友也死了。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

But if we are going to help solve the organ shortage, we cannot do it at the expense of donors.

但如果我们要帮助解决器官短缺问题，就不能以牺牲捐赠者为代价。

Because you don't take advantage of people who want to be altruistic like that.

因为你不会利用那些想像那样无私的人。

Stephanie Foo Right.

斯蒂芬妮·符 对的。

Having your expenses covered would have solved your situation with Maurie, right?

支付你的费用就能解决你和莫里的问题，对吗？

Stephanie Foo Anyway, that's one way to do it.

Stephanie Foo 无论如何，这是一种方法。

Stephanie Foo is one of the producers of our show.

斯蒂芬妮·符（Stephanie Foo）是我们节目的制作人之一。

Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Neil Drumming, Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semian, Lilly Sullivan, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.

鸣谢 Ira Glass 我们今天的节目由 Neil Drumming、Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semian、Lilly Sullivan、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作。

Our senior producer is Brian Reed.

我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。

Our editor is Joel Lovell.

我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。

Julie Snyder is our editorial consultant.

朱莉·斯奈德是我们的编辑顾问。

Our technical director is Matt Tierney.

我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。

Production help today from Lyra Smith.

今天，莱拉·史密斯 (Lyra Smith) 提供制作帮助。

Producer help today from Christopher Swetala, Benjamin Anastas, and Benjamin Phalen.

今天，克里斯托弗·斯韦塔拉 (Christopher Swetala)、本杰明·阿纳斯塔斯 (Benjamin Anastas) 和本杰明·法伦 (Benjamin Phalen) 为制片人提供帮助。

Music help today from Damien Graef, from Rob Geddis.

今天的音乐由达米恩·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供帮助。

[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.

[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。

This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。

Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who asks me, at least once a week--

一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他每周至少问我一次——

Terry Grosz Snag them, dynamite them, gillnet them.

特里·格罗兹 抓住他们，用炸药炸死他们，用刺网刺死他们。

Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life.

艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 我是艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass），下周回来，带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.

《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。