573: Status Update - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #573 | November 27, 2015 573: Status Update Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 573 集 | 2015 年 11 月 27 日 573：状态更新 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass Julia's 13.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 朱莉娅的 13。
Jane and Ella are 14.
简和艾拉 14 岁。
And when they came to our studio for an interview, they did this thing they do all the time when they hang out.
当他们来我们工作室接受采访时，他们做了他们闲逛时一直做的事情。
They take pictures of themselves.
他们给自己拍照。
And-- no surprise-- they post them to Instagram.
而且——毫不奇怪——他们将它们发布到 Instagram 上。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Jane No, retake it.
简 不，重考。
It's really bad.
真的很糟糕。
Jane, calm down.
简，冷静点。
Julia It doesn't matter, OK?
朱莉娅：没关系，好吗？
This is what happens every time.
每次都会发生这样的情况。
We'll see what happens.
我们会看看会发生什么。
Ella --how quickly everything comes in.
艾拉——一切都来得真快。
So what's your prediction on what's going to happen?
那么您对将要发生的事情有何预测？
Usually there's at least-- usually there's two likes in a minute.
通常一分钟内至少会有两个点赞。
But I don't know, because people might not be up yet.
但我不知道，因为人们可能还没有起床。
People aren't-- there's-- Ira Glass It was 11:00 in the morning on a day with no school, not prime time for posting photos at all.
人们没有——有—— Ira Glass 那是上午 11:00，那天没有学校，根本不是发布照片的黄金时间。
Nighttime is usually when you get the most likes and comments.
夜间通常是您获得最多点赞和评论的时间。
But, you know, 11:00 AM.
但是，你知道，上午 11:00。
A minute passes.
一分钟过去了。
No response on the photo they took in the studio.
对于他们在工作室拍摄的照片没有回应。
And then?
进而？
Oh, wait, three likes.
哦，等等，三个赞。
Julia Oh, three likes.
朱莉娅哦，三个喜欢。
From Ro-- Ella From three people.
来自Ro——Ella 来自三个人。
No one's commented yet.
还没有人发表评论。
One of these is my best friend.
其中一位是我最好的朋友。
OK, another person liked it.
好吧，另一个人喜欢它。
Two people.
两个人。
Two people.
两个人。
OK, we're getting a lot of likes now.
好的，我们现在得到了很多喜欢。
Three.
三。
Another person.
另一个人。
Jane How many likes do we have now?
Jane 我们现在有多少个赞？
Six, I think.
六个，我想。
Jane OK, we have one, two, three, four, five, six likes in a minute.
Jane 好吧，我们在一分钟内有一个、两个、三个、四个、五个、六个赞。
That's actually good, Ella.
这实际上很好，艾拉。
What they're waiting for is not just likes and comments but a specific kind of comment.
他们等待的不仅仅是点赞和评论，而是特定类型的评论。
This is probably not going to be news to any of you who have teenage girls in your lives, but I bet lots of you do not know about this.
对于生活中有十几岁女孩的人来说，这可能不是什么新闻，但我敢打赌你们很多人都不知道这一点。
They want comments from other girls, and they say the wording is pretty much always the same.
她们希望得到其他女孩的评论，她们说措辞几乎总是一样的。
Gorgeous.
华丽的。
Pretty.
漂亮的。
Stunning.
令人惊叹的。
Ella Stunning?
艾拉惊艳吗？
Yeah.
是的。
You kill it.
你杀了它。
You're so pretty.
你真漂亮。
So beautiful.
如此美丽。
OK, just to be clear, they say this about everybody's selfies, whether or not the selfies are, in fact, stunning or beautiful.
好吧，澄清一下，他们是这样评价每个人的自拍照的，无论这些自拍照实际上是否令人惊叹或美丽。
This is super-affirming language that is applied equally to every girl, universally.
这是一种超级肯定的语言，普遍适用于每个女孩。
You've heard of bullying online?
你听说过网络欺凌吗？
This is the opposite.
这是相反的。
A lot of people don't just say pretty.
很多人不只是说漂亮。
You either say like, Pretty, WTF?
你要么说，漂亮，WTF？
Gorgeous, WTF?
太漂亮了，WTF？
Perfect.
完美的。
Like all caps sometimes.
有时喜欢全部大写。
Ella Um, some people say, like, model.
Ella 嗯，有些人说，就像模特。
You can add OMG after anything.
你可以在任何内容之后添加 OMG。
Something "-est." Ira Glass The one word you don't say?
一些“-est”。艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 你没有说的一个词是？
"Sexy." They explained you could say "hot," but never "sexy."
“性感。”他们解释说你可以说“热辣”，但绝不能说“性感”。
There's a different connotation to "sexy" than there is to "hot."
“性感”与“性感”的含义不同。
'Cause, like, it has the word "sex" in it.
因为它里面有“性”这个词。
Sex.
性别。
Yeah, I think it's the word.
是的，我想就是这个词。
Ella Like, intercourse.
艾拉喜欢，性交。
This is not about sex.
这与性无关。
It's not about boys.
这与男孩无关。
It's about girls, and friendship.
这是关于女孩和友谊的。
And it's very repetitive-- the same phrases, over and over.
而且它非常重复——同样的短语，一遍又一遍。
I asked them each to pick a selfie that they'd posted and read the comments.
我让他们每人挑选一张他们发布的自拍照并阅读评论。
So I have gorgeous, pretty.
所以我有华丽，漂亮。
Ella You're so pretty, OMG.
艾拉，你真漂亮，天哪。
Heart eyes.
心眼。
So pretty.
真漂亮。
Heart eyes.
心眼。
Gorgeous.
华丽的。
Gorge.
峡谷。
They say their parents don't understand this.
他们说他们的父母不明白这一点。
Ella's mom has Instagram, so she sees the pictures and the comments.
艾拉的妈妈有 Instagram，所以她可以看到照片和评论。
She's just like, why?
她只是想，为什么？
Why?
为什么？
Why is everyone doing this?
为什么每个人都这样做？
Like, why are 50 people feeling the need to tell you that you're pretty?
比如，为什么 50 个人觉得有必要告诉你你很漂亮？
Julia's mom?
朱莉娅的妈妈？
Same thing.
同样的事情。
Julia She's like, why?
朱莉娅 她说，为什么？
Why are all these people saying, like, oh, you're so perfect?
为什么所有这些人都说，哦，你太完美了？
And my dad just thinks it's funny.
我爸爸只是觉得这很有趣。
He's like, why are these people doing this?
他想，这些人为什么要这样做？
Like, it doesn't-- it's kind of stupid.
就像，事实并非如此——这有点愚蠢。
They think it's, like, stupid.
他们认为这很愚蠢。
So what's it about?
那么它是关于什么的呢？
Well, the answer to that question is complicated, and it involves going deep into an intricate language that's going on in the comments.
嗯，这个问题的答案很复杂，它涉及到深入研究评论中复杂的语言。
Welcome to WBEZ Chicago.
欢迎来到 WBEZ 芝加哥。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program is about status updates of various kinds-- the literal kind, like on Instagram.
今天的节目是关于各种状态更新的——字面意义上的更新，就像 Instagram 上的那样。
But most of our show today is about the kind of slow changes in status that happen to adults, that happen usually when people get money or they get recognition, where what happens is, you know, quiet, and slow, and really, is sometimes kind of rude to talk about.
但我们今天的大部分节目都是关于成年人身上发生的那种缓慢的地位变化，这种变化通常发生在人们获得金钱或得到认可时，你知道，发生的事情是安静的、缓慢的，而且实际上，有时谈论起来有点粗鲁。
Like, when do you say to anybody, "Hey, you're making a lot more money than you used to." Or, "Hey, you're making a lot less money." Or, "You're making a lot more money than me."
就像，你什么时候会对别人说：“嘿，你赚的钱比以前多了。”或者，“嘿，你赚的钱少了很多。”或者，“你赚的钱比我多得多。”
And that's why I wanted to talk to Jane and Ella and Julia.
这就是为什么我想和简、艾拉和朱莉娅谈谈。
Because for them, this stuff is not gradual or vague or shameful to talk about.
因为对他们来说，这些东西并不是渐进的、含糊的或可耻的。
It's happening out in the open, online.
它是在网上公开发生的。
They're online all the time, constantly getting updates on the social standing of everybody they know, in detail and at incredible speed.
他们一直在线，不断以令人难以置信的速度详细了解他们认识的每个人的社会地位的最新情况。
And that's what these Instagram comments are all about, if you know how to read them.
如果您知道如何阅读这些评论，那么这就是这些 Instagram 评论的全部内容。
So let's just start right there, with Act 1.
那么让我们从第一幕开始吧。
Act 1.
第 1 幕。
Finding the Self in Selfie.
在自拍中寻找自我。
So these comments-- you know, you're so beautiful, you're gorgeous, you're cutest-- which look utterly interchangeable to Julia and Ella and Jane's parents, they are in fact a very specific language that tells the girls all kinds of things.
所以这些评论——你知道，你太漂亮了，你太漂亮了，你最可爱了——对朱莉娅、艾拉和简的父母来说，这些评论看起来完全可以互换，但事实上，它们是一种非常具体的语言，告诉女孩们各种各样的事情。
And a lot of the meaning in the comments actually has nothing to do with the actual words, whether they say gorgeous, or pretty, or OMG, or whatever.
评论中的很多含义实际上与实际词语无关，无论他们说华丽、漂亮、天哪，还是其他什么。
It's about who is doing the commenting, and whether that person likes a photo or comments on the photo-- liking a photo means something totally different than commenting.
这是关于谁在发表评论，以及该人是否喜欢照片或对照片的评论——喜欢照片的含义与评论完全不同。
You comment with somebody you're close to, or who you're trying to get close to.
您向与您关系密切或您想接近的人发表评论。
And with a close friend, you kind of have to comment.
对于亲密的朋友，你必须发表评论。
It's definitely a social obligation, because you want to let them know, and also let people who are seeing those, that I have a close relationship with this person, so close that I can comment on their pictures, like, this is so cute, or, you look so great here.
这绝对是一项社会义务，因为你想让他们知道，也让看到这些的人知道，我和这个人关系密切，亲密到我可以评论他们的照片，比如，这太可爱了，或者，你在这里看起来很棒。
Then, of course, when you do post a comment about a picture, there's the whole politics of whether your friend is going to comment back to your comment.
然后，当然，当您发布有关图片的评论时，您的朋友是否会评论您的评论就存在整个政治问题。
And subtle differences in the wording when they comment back could mean something, even though, to an outsider, the words basically look the same.
当他们评论时，措辞上的细微差别可能意味着什么，尽管对于局外人来说，这些词看起来基本上是一样的。
Julia says that she'll comment back, oh my god, I love you so much, to a close friend who compliments a picture of hers.
朱莉娅说，如果一位密友称赞她的照片，她会回复“天哪，我非常爱你”。
But she says with somebody you don't know so well, it goes differently.
但她说，如果和不太熟悉的人在一起，情况就会有所不同。
If they say, like, oh my god, like, you're so pretty, you say, OMG, but that's you.
如果他们说，天哪，你真漂亮，你会说，天哪，但这就是你。
You know, like-- like you're the pretty one?
你知道吗，就像——就像你是那个漂亮的人？
I feel like that's something that I say to someone who's like-- who I'm not super close with, but I feel like-- like I have to say something back.
我觉得这就是我对某个人说的话——我和他不是很亲密，但我觉得——就像我必须说些什么。
Especially because we, like, just started high school, so we're meeting a lot of new people.
特别是因为我们刚刚开始高中，所以我们遇到了很多新朋友。
So you would comment on someone's photo who you're not really super close with or that you don't know really well.
因此，您可能会对某个与您关系不太密切或不太了解的人的照片发表评论。
And it's sort of a statement, like, I want to be friends with you, or I want to get to know you, or like, I think you're cool.
这是一种声明，比如，我想和你成为朋友，或者我想了解你，或者比如，我认为你很酷。
If someone that you don't know very well commented on your photo, you-- it's sort of like an unspoken agreement that you have to comment back on their photo.
如果您不太熟悉的人对您的照片发表了评论，那么您就必须对他们的照片发表评论，这有点像一种不言而喻的约定。
Like when you're making new friends, if they comment on your photo, you comment on their photo.
就像当你结交新朋友时，如果他们评论你的照片，你也会评论他们的照片。
It's like a chain reaction.
这就像一个连锁反应。
Ira Glass Another thing you don't see if you don't know this language of comments and commenting back-- let's say that you comment on somebody's photo.
Ira Glass：如果您不知道这种评论和回复的语言，您就看不到另一件事 - 假设您对某人的照片进行评论。
When they comment back, do they comment to you individually?
当他们回复时，他们会单独评论你吗？
Or do they group you in with 20 or 30 other people and send just one big group comment back to all of you?
或者他们会将您与其他 20 或 30 个人分到一组，然后只向你们所有人发送一大组评论？
That tells you where you stand with the person.
这告诉你你与这个人的立场。
Then there are all those situations where somebody choosing not to comment is a really big deal.
在所有这些情况下，有人选择不发表评论是一件非常大的事情。
Like for example, if you post a picture of yourself with a friend and then the friend does not comment on that picture, that's just cold.
举个例子，如果你发布了一张自己和朋友的照片，然后朋友没有评论这张照片，那就太冷了。
That is leaving you dangling.
那会让你悬而未决。
Or if you post a selfie, close friends are expected to chime in with support.
或者，如果您发布自拍照，亲密的朋友应该会加入支持。
When they don't?
当他们不这样做时？
You definitely feel insecure.
你肯定会感到没有安全感。
Because, like, you expect them to comment, and they don't, and you're like, why?
因为，就像，你希望他们发表评论，但他们没有，你会想，为什么？
This isn't even good enough for, like, my best friend.
这对于我最好的朋友来说甚至还不够好。
Like, what if they've seen it and they're just not liking it on purpose, or like, what if everybody who's seeing it thinks that we're not actually friends because they're not commenting on it.
比如，如果他们看过它但只是故意不喜欢它怎么办，或者如果每个看到它的人都认为我们实际上不是朋友，因为他们没有评论它怎么办。
They haven't commented yet.
他们还没有发表评论。
It's been X amount of time and they still haven't liked it.
已经过去 X 段时间了，他们仍然不喜欢它。
It's this kind of shallow-- like, why are you not responding to something that I never said you had to respond to in the first place?
这是一种肤浅的问题——就像，为什么你不回应我从未说过你必须回应的事情？
[LAUGHTER] Ira Glass And tell me about how quickly people have to respond.
[笑声] Ira Glass 告诉我人们必须多快做出反应。
Like, what's the normal amount of time?
比如，正常的时间是多少？
Within 10 minutes, I think.
我想 10 分钟之内。
Jane Yeah, usually.
简 是的，通常是这样。
People are always on Instagram.
人们总是在 Instagram 上。
Everyone's always on Instagram.
每个人都总是在 Instagram 上。
There's definitely a weird psychology to it.
这里面肯定有一种奇怪的心理。
It's just sort of the way it is.
事情就是这样。
It's like unspoken rules that everybody knows and follows.
这就像每个人都知道并遵守的潜规则。
But can I ask you, have you gotten caught up in weird mind games where somebody commented or liked or didn't comment or didn't like, and then you're just like, I don't-- what does this-- what does this one means?
但我可以问你，你是否陷入了奇怪的心理游戏，有人评论或喜欢或不评论或不喜欢，然后你就像，我不 - 这是什么意思 - 这意味着什么？
Yeah.
是的。
Someone like-- Julia Ella has an example.
朱莉娅·埃拉（Julia Ella）这样的人有一个例子。
I mean, these girls that went to our middle school, they--
我的意思是，这些上我们中学的女孩，她们——
Yeah, this is not my picture, but someone said, what even?
是的，这不是我的照片，但有人说，那又怎样？
You're perfect.
你很完美。
I hate you.
我恨你。
Eff you.
哎呀你。
You suck.
你好烂。
And then like someone else, like-- WTF?
然后就像其他人一样，比如——WTF？
You're perfect.
你很完美。
I hate you.
我恨你。
Because people-- what they're trying to say is, like, you're so perfect and you're so beautiful that I, like, hate you for it, and I wish I was like you so much that I dislike you for it.
因为人们——他们想说的是，你是如此完美，你是如此美丽，以至于我喜欢、讨厌你，我希望我能像你一样，以至于我不喜欢你。
And how do you respond to that?
您对此有何回应？
Like, I'm sorry?
比如，对不起？
Because you don't say, like-- you don't say, like, thank you, because it's not really a compliment.
因为你不会说，比如——你不会说，比如，谢谢，因为这并不是真正的赞美。
You don't really know.
你真的不知道。
We've all gotten those comments of-- last year, like, this girl even said it to my face.
我们都收到过这样的评论——去年，这个女孩甚至当着我的面说过这样的话。
She was like, you're so pretty, like, I'm going to throw you into the train tracks.
她说，你真漂亮，我要把你扔进火车轨道。
Like things that-- like it doesn't even make sense.
就像那些甚至没有意义的事情。
Like it's--
就像它是——
Like on my photo right now-- I'm looking at it-- this girl commented, I hate you.
就像我现在的照片一样——我正在看着它——这个女孩评论道，我恨你。
Um, I've also, like, been, like, caught in the situation where someone's like, you're so pretty, and I'm like, oh, thank you.
嗯，我也遇到过这样的情况，有人说，你真漂亮，我就说，哦，谢谢你。
You're really pretty too.
你也确实很漂亮。
And then we've gotten into this whole thing, and I remember, like magical mirrors came up, like potions.
然后我们就进入了这整件事，我记得，就像神奇的镜子出现了，就像魔药一样。
And I was just like, wait, this is way too deep.
我当时就想，等等，这太深了。
Like, you must be looking in a mirror then, because you must be talking to yourself, because you're so pretty.
就像，你一定在照镜子，因为你一定在自言自语，因为你太漂亮了。
She was like, we should switch bodies with, like, a potion.
她说，我们应该用药剂交换身体。
I was like, what?
我当时想，什么？
Ella and Julia and Jane say that usually, they'll get 130 to 150 likes for any selfie they put up, and anywhere between 30 and 50 comments, which is a good response.
Ella、Julia 和 Jane 表示，通常情况下，他们发布的任何自拍照都会获得 130 到 150 条点赞，以及 30 到 50 条评论，这是一个很好的回应。
And overwhelmingly, these comments are these super-positive, you're so pretty, OMG, you're so cute kind.
绝大多数，这些评论都是超级积极的，你太漂亮了，天哪，你太可爱了。
And a lot of it is heartfelt, girls just trying to be good friends to each other.
很多都是发自内心的，女孩们只是想成为彼此的好朋友。
When you see your friend put herself out there, it's nice to tell her she's pretty.
当你看到你的朋友把自己摆在那里时，很高兴告诉她她很漂亮。
Can I ask, like, does it work?
我可以问一下，这有效吗？
Because you know, when you're getting over 100 likes and comments and things like that, like, you know, a lot of it is just rote, right?
因为你知道，当你获得超过 100 个点赞和评论以及类似的东西时，你知道，其中很多只是死记硬背，对吗？
A lot of people are just like, they see a thing, and they just automatically--
很多人就像，他们看到一件事，然后他们就会不自觉地——
It's mindless.
这是无心的。
And so since it's mindless, does it still work?
既然它是无意识的，那么它仍然有效吗？
Does it make you feel good?
这让你感觉良好吗？
Yes.
是的。
Julia Um, actually, if I get a comment from someone I care about, I think it makes me feel good, like it lifts me up.
朱莉娅，嗯，实际上，如果我收到我关心的人的评论，我认为这会让我感觉良好，就像它让我振奋一样。
But a lot of it's just, like, I literally just scroll through my Instagram feed and I just, like, click, like double-tap.
但很多时候，我只是滚动浏览我的 Instagram feed，然后点击、双击。
I like everything on my feed.
我喜欢我的提要中的所有内容。
Julia You know, like it just doesn't-- and that's what people are doing to your photo.
朱莉娅：你知道，就像事实并非如此——这就是人们对你的照片所做的事情。
But, like, it still makes you feel good, because you're getting all these likes.
但是，它仍然让你感觉良好，因为你得到了所有这些赞。
Yeah, but when you think about it, it's so strange.
是的，但是当你仔细想想，这很奇怪。
Because you know how superficial it is.
因为你知道它是多么肤浅。
You know, but yeah.
你知道，但是是的。
Ella Yeah.
艾拉 是的。
You know that you're doing it to other people, but--
你知道你正在对其他人这样做，但是——
And yet it's still-- Ella Then other people are doing it to you.
但它仍然-- 艾拉 然后其他人正在对你这样做。
And it still feels like something, though.
但它仍然给人一种感觉。
Like, it does make you feel good.
就像，它确实让你感觉良好。
You're like, oh, I'm getting all these comments.
你会说，哦，我收到了所有这些评论。
Like, people like my photo.
就像，人们喜欢我的照片。
They think I'm pretty.
他们觉得我很漂亮。
Like, they're saying that you're pretty.
就像，他们说你很漂亮。
And if someone comes up to you and says you're pretty, like, you're obviously going to be like, thank you, if it makes you feel good.
如果有人走过来对你说你很漂亮，你显然会说，谢谢你，如果这让你感觉很好的话。
Because it just does.
因为它确实如此。
Like, that's like human nature.
就像，这就像人性。
Like, you're going to feel good.
就像，你会感觉良好。
This is really not so different from anybody's life on social media.
这与任何人在社交媒体上的生活确实没有什么不同。
When I tweet something and a friend favorites it, and another friend retweets with a funny comment, that is totally them saying to me, you're so pretty-- just in a more adult kind of way.
当我发推文并且一个朋友喜欢它，而另一个朋友转发一条有趣的评论时，这完全是他们对我说，你太漂亮了——只是以一种更成人的方式。
And it feels nice.
而且感觉很好。
All three of these girls told me they don't need 50 people telling them that they're pretty all the time.
这三个女孩都告诉我，她们不需要 50 个人一直告诉她们她们很漂亮。
But you know, it's there for the taking.
但你知道，它就在那里供人拿取。
It's like free candy.
这就像免费的糖果。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Do you feel like this is a situation where, like, girls are so judged all the time on how they look, and this is a way to counteract that, by you guys saying to each other, like, you're pretty, you're pretty?
你是否觉得在这种情况下，女孩总是根据她们的外表来评判，而这是一种抵消这种情况的方法，你们互相说，比如，你很漂亮，你很漂亮？
Well, no. It just gives more opportunities for people to judge.
嗯，不。它只是给了人们更多的评判机会。
They're not going to--
他们不会——
Yeah, posting a photo of yourself is putting yourself out there.
是的，发布自己的照片就是把自己暴露出来。
They're not going to do it on social media, obviously, because you will see it.
显然，他们不会在社交媒体上这样做，因为你会看到它。
But they'll do it behind your back.
但他们会在你背后做这件事。
When a girl posts an unflattering selfie, or just a selfie that makes her look uncool, other girls will take screenshots to save the image and gossip about it later.
当一个女孩发布一张不讨人喜欢的自拍照，或者只是一张让她看起来不酷的自拍照时，其他女孩会截屏保存图片，并在以后讨论它。
Happens all the time.
一直在发生。
And so even though they're old hands at posting selfies-- they've been posting since sixth grade-- it can be nervous-making to post one.
因此，尽管他们是发布自拍照的老手——他们从六年级就开始发布——但发布一张自拍照可能会让人紧张。
So they take precautions.
所以他们采取预防措施。
We all ask people before we post it, like send in like a group chat, or like, send to your friends, like, should I post this?
我们都会在发布之前询问人们，比如像群聊一样发送，或者像发送给你的朋友，比如，我应该发布这个吗？
Do I look pretty?
我看起来漂亮吗？
And they say, like, all the same stuff that they would say in a comment.
他们说的和他们在评论中说的都是一样的。
Like, oh my god, yes, post it.
就像，天哪，是的，发布它。
Like, you're so pretty.
比如说，你真漂亮。
You're so perfect.
你是如此完美。
So like--
所以就像——
And so it'd be like you run it by like four or five friends.
所以这就像是你由四五个朋友来经营它。
Yeah.
是的。
If I send it to my friends, I'm not nervous about it, because then I have--
如果我把它发送给我的朋友，我不会感到紧张，因为那样我就——
OK.
好的。
Ira Glass Jane looks at her phone.
艾拉·格拉斯·简看着手机。
There's a message.
有一条消息。
Like someone just texted in a giant group chat, go like my photo on Instagram.
就像某人刚刚在大型群聊中发短信一样，请在 Instagram 上点赞我的照片。
It just shows that it happens every--
它只是表明它每次都会发生——
It happens every second.
它每秒都在发生。
Julia It happens all the time.
朱莉娅 这种事经常发生。
I have to say, like, oh my god, this is such a job.
我不得不说，天哪，这真是一份工作。
Yeah.
是的。
Julia It's like I'm-- I'm a brand, and I am like--
朱莉娅：我就像——我是一个品牌，我就像——
And you're the product.
而你就是产品。
Jane You're definitely trying to promote yourself.
简 你肯定是想推销自己。
You have to work hard.
你必须努力工作。
Ella Relevance is a big term right now.
Ella Relevance 现在是一个重要的术语。
Are you guys relevant?
你们有关系吗？
Ella Um, I'm so relevant.
艾拉嗯，我很相关。
In middle school.
在中学时。
In middle school, we were definitely really relevant.
在中学时，我们确实非常相关。
Because everything was established.
因为一切都是既定的。
But now, in the beginning of high school, you can't really tell who's relevant.
但现在，在高中刚开始的时候，你无法真正分辨出谁是相关的。
Relevant means that people care about what you're posting on Instagram.
相关意味着人们关心您在 Instagram 上发布的内容。
People--
人们——
Care about you.
关心你。
Jane --want to know what you're doing.
简——想知道你在做什么。
People will open your Snapchat stories.
人们会打开您的 Snapchat 故事。
They're only three months into high school, so there is a lot at stake right now.
他们才进入高中三个月，所以现在面临着很多风险。
One of my, like, best friends posts a selfie.
我的一个最好的朋友发布了一张自拍照。
Maybe this isn't, like, healthy.
也许这并不健康。
But I might go through the comments and see who she's, like, really good friends with, just 'cause we're in high school and there's that sense of jealousy between everyone.
但我可能会浏览一下评论，看看她和谁是真正的好朋友，因为我们在高中，每个人之间都有嫉妒感。
Do you have people who you're jealous of?
你有嫉妒的人吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Julia Yeah.
朱莉娅 是的。
I definitely would.
我绝对会的。
I go through, like, the comments that people see-- like that people say, and like, I see what other people have said to other people.
我会浏览人们看到的评论，就像人们所说的那样，我会看到其他人对其他人说过的话。
Yeah.
是的。
Julia Just to see, like, the whole-- like, the whole social like map.
朱莉娅只是想看看整个社会的地图。
Looking, mapping out your social world, seeing who's with who, who's hanging out with who, who is best friends with who.
观察、规划你的社交世界，看看谁和谁在一起、谁和谁一起出去玩、谁和谁是最好的朋友。
If you didn't have it, like, I feel like I'd be missing so much.
如果你没有它，我觉得我会失去很多。
And it would just--
它只会——
Because you wouldn't see what other people were saying.
因为你看不到别人在说什么。
A lot goes on.
发生了很多事情。
Well, no, that's, I feel like, the thing that I'm understanding from this conversation, is like-- it's actually like, you're getting a picture of your entire social world and who's up and who's down and who's close to who, and it's like you're getting a diagram of where everybody stands with everybody else.
嗯，不，我觉得，我从这次谈话中了解到的事情，实际上就像是，你得到了整个社交世界的图景，谁在上升，谁在下降，谁与谁关系密切，就像你得到了一张图表，显示每个人与其他人的立场。
Definitely.
确实。
Definitely.
确实。
Ira Glass As it changes in real time, every day, every 10 minutes.
Ira Glass 因为它每天、每 10 分钟实时变化。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Ella You see these comments.
艾拉你看到这些评论。
You screenshot them.
你把它们截图。
You show them to your friends at school.
你把它们展示给你在学校的朋友们。
Yeah, I will screenshot things, and be like, look what she said, look what she said.
是的，我会截图，然后看看她说了什么，看看她说了什么。
Like even if it's funny.
即使很有趣也喜欢。
I didn't know that these people were close.
我不知道这些人很亲近。
When did this happen?
这是什么时候发生的事？
This is the main thing they get from Instagram, they say.
他们说，这是他们从 Instagram 获得的主要东西。
After all, each of them only post a couple pictures a week.
毕竟，他们每个人每周只发布几张照片。
Not that much of their time on Instagram is being told they're pretty.
她们在 Instagram 上并没有太多时间被告知自己很漂亮。
Most of it is this, dissecting and calibrating the minutiae of the social diagram.
大部分内容就是这样，剖析和校准社会图的细节。
[MUSIC - "YOU'RE SO BEAUTIFUL" BY JUSSIE SMOLLETT & YAZZ]
[音乐 - JUSSIE SMOLLETT 和 YAZZ 的《你真美丽》]
Act Two: Mon Ami Ta-Nehisi Ira Glass Act 2.
第二幕：Mon Ami Ta-Nehisi Ira Glass 第二幕。
Mon Ami Ta-Nehisi.
蒙·阿米·塔内西西。
Well, our show today is about status updates.
好吧，我们今天的节目是关于状态更新的。
And you know, it's weird when a sudden change of status happens to somebody who you're close with.
你知道，当你亲近的人突然改变身份时，这很奇怪。
And that's true whether their status goes up or their status goes down.
无论他们的地位上升还是下降，这都是事实。
One of our producers, Neil Drumming, is best friends with the writer Ta-Nehisi Coates, who I think a lot of people heard of for the first time a couple years ago when he wrote this article arguing the case for reparations for black Americans.
我们的制片人之一尼尔·德鲁明 (Neil Drumming) 是作家塔内西斯·科茨 (Ta-Nehisi Coates) 最好的朋友，我想很多人第一次听说他是在几年前，当时他写了这篇文章，为美国黑人的赔偿辩护。
That article was nothing compared to the attention that Ta-Nehisi got when his latest book was published this summer.
与今年夏天塔内西斯的最新著作出版时所受到的关注相比，这篇文章根本算不了什么。
The book has been on the New York Times Bestseller List ever since.
此后，该书一直名列《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜。
He's been interviewed all over the place.
他到处都接受过采访。
He's been called the next James Baldwin.
他被称为下一个詹姆斯·鲍德温。
Ta-Nehisi Coates was suddenly famous and rich, and Neil, our co-worker, definitely was not.
塔内西斯·科茨突然变得出名和富有，而我们的同事尼尔却绝对不是。
He does fine, but, you know.
他做得很好，但是，你知道。
Anyway, it got Neil thinking.
不管怎样，这让尼尔开始思考。
Quick warning-- there's some cursing in this story that we bleeped on the radio version of our show.
快速警告——我们在节目的广播版本中听到的这个故事中有一些咒骂。
Here on the podcast and the internet, we are unbleeping it.
在播客和互联网上，我们不会发出声音。
If you're somebody who prefers the bleeped version-- maybe you listen to the show with kids-- you can find it at our website.
如果您喜欢带声音的版本（也许您和孩子们一起听这个节目），您可以在我们的网站上找到它。
One of the weird things about having a famous friend is that even when he's too busy to hang out, he's sort of around all the time.
有一个名人朋友的奇怪之处之一是，即使他太忙而无法出去玩，他也一直在身边。
I hadn't seen Ta-Nehisi in a few months.
我已经几个月没见到塔内西了。
But in the last year or two, it seemed like everyone was reading his work and talking about it-- everyone on the subway, the President of the United States, my ex who texted me out of the blue to see if I could get her into one of his speaking engagements-- everyone.
但在过去的一两年里，似乎每个人都在阅读他的作品并谈论它——地铁上的每个人，美国总统，我的前任，她突然给我发短信，看看我是否能让她参加他的演讲活动——每个人。
But by July, I was cat-sitting just 15 blocks from Ta-Nehisi's apartment and he and I still hadn't connected.
但到了 7 月，我在距离 Ta-Nehisi 公寓仅 15 个街区的地方照看猫，而我和他仍然没有联系。
We tried, but it just didn't work out.
我们尝试过，但没有成功。
I was walking past a newsstand on Broadway, thinking I should try texting him again, that I had so much to tell him.
我走过百老汇的一个报摊，心想我应该再给他发短信，因为我有很多话要告诉他。
And when I looked up, he was right in front of me, his big-ass disembodied head staring at me from the cover of New York Magazine .
当我抬头时，他就在我面前，他那大屁股的、空洞的脑袋在《纽约杂志》的封面上盯着我。
By the end of the summer, Ta-Nehisi had turned 40 and moved his family to Paris.
夏末，塔内西斯已经 40 岁了，他举家搬到了巴黎。
He won the MacArthur Genius Award.
他获得了麦克阿瑟天才奖。
He was across the ocean, and coworkers were congratulating me for him.
他远在大洋彼岸，同事们都在替我祝贺。
It's wild having the world talk so much about someone you know and with whom you share so much history.
让世界如此多地谈论你认识的人以及与你分享如此多历史的人，这真是太疯狂了。
It's exciting and, oddly, kind of gratifying.
这很令人兴奋，而且奇怪的是，还有点令人欣慰。
I'm happy for him.
我为他感到高兴。
The thing I'm having trouble with is harder to explain.
我遇到的麻烦更难解释。
I know Ta-Nehisi's the same guy-- warm, funny, curious, loves comic books.
我知道塔内西斯是同一个人——热情、有趣、好奇、喜欢漫画书。
But he's also a famous writer who lives in Paris, accepts prestigious awards in a tuxedo that he owns, and gets shout-outs from Toni Morrison and Jay Z.
但他也是一位住在巴黎的著名作家，穿着自己的燕尾服接受着名奖项，并得到托尼·莫里森和杰伊·Z 的称赞。
He's changing in ways that I'm not.
他正在以我没有的方式改变。
And when people change, they grow apart.
当人们改变时，他们就会变得疏远。
And it makes me worry about our friendship.
这让我担心我们的友谊。
Like when we're making plans.
就像我们制定计划时一样。
A couple of months ago, Ta-Nehisi, our other buddy, Rick, and I were supposed to meet for Sunday brunch at our old West Side haunt, The Half King.
几个月前，塔内西西、我们的另一个好友瑞克和我本来应该在我们西区的老地方 The Half King 一起吃周日早午餐。
The Half King is a pub, not a dive, a respectable pub with good service, good beer, and decent food.
The Half King 是一家酒吧，而不是一家潜水店，是一家受人尊敬的酒吧，提供优质的服务、优质的啤酒和体面的食物。
The morning of the scheduled meeting, he texted to ask if we can meet at the swanky Hotel Marlton instead.
在预定会议的那天早上，他发短信询问我们是否可以在豪华的马尔顿酒店见面。
His explanation?
他的解释？
"I'm becoming that dude."
“我正在成为那个家伙。”
Rick was understanding.
瑞克很理解。
He joked that since eating in Paris, everything back home must taste like dog food.
他开玩笑说，自从在巴黎吃饭后，家里的一切都尝起来像狗粮。
Ta-Nehisi's response?
塔内西的回应？
"It's close."
“已经很接近了。”
Sometimes he ends emails with unnecessary French interpolations of everyday phrases.
有时，他会在电子邮件结尾添加一些不必要的法语日常用语。
In this country, we have a word for such behavior, and it's the same word in Ta-Nehisi's newly adopted language.
在这个国家，我们有一个词来形容这种行为，在塔内西斯新采用的语言中也是同一个词。
Je suis snob.
我是势利小人。
Neil Drumming That's how you say, "I'm a snob" in French?
Neil Drumming 这就是你用法语说的“我是个势利小人”？
Je suis snob.
我是势利小人。
Snob.
势利。
I gotta get my accent right.
我必须纠正我的口音。
Je suis snob.
我是势利小人。
I tease him about becoming a snob, but we've never really talked about it.
我取笑他变得势利小人，但我们从未真正谈论过这件事。
And so, cautiously and nervously, a couple weeks ago, I asked him if we could.
因此，几周前，我小心翼翼、紧张地问他我们是否可以。
We texted back and forth to set a time when we could sit down.
我们来回发短信约定坐下的时间。
At one point, he suggested that I go through his assistant.
有一次，他建议我去找他的助理。
Ta-Nehisi was tired from a long day of meetings and signing books, so he and I ended up at the bar of the hotel where he was staying.
塔内西西 (Ta-Nehisi) 经过一整天的会议和签书感到疲倦，所以他和我最终来到了他所住酒店的酒吧。
It's a lavish joint with a rooftop pool deck and big, cushioned banquettes in the lounge.
这是一家豪华酒店，设有屋顶泳池平台，休息室内设有带软垫的大型长椅。
We sat up on the mezzanine, overlooking the low-lit bar.
我们坐在夹层楼上，俯瞰着昏暗的酒吧。
Is this the best hotel you ever stayed in?
这是您住过的最好的酒店吗？
This ain't that good of a hotel.
这可不是什么好酒店。
But it's perfectly decent.
但这是完全体面的。
I got a nice room here.
我在这里有一个不错的房间。
Yeah.
是的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates How's this feel to you?
塔-内西斯·科茨（Ta-Nehisi Coates）您感觉如何？
Does this feel like a nice hotel to you?
您觉得这是一家不错的酒店吗？
Ta-Nehisi knew we were here to talk about his snobbery, and he wasted zero time getting into character.
塔内西知道我们来这里是为了谈论他的势利，他浪费了零时间进入角色。
He told me a story about the other night when he'd had dinner in the restaurant of this very hotel.
他给我讲了一个故事，那天晚上他在这家酒店的餐厅吃晚饭。
And I was sitting at the bar.
我坐在酒吧里。
And the food was OK.
食物还可以。
It's like one of these OK food restaurants.
这就像这些不错的餐厅之一。
But it was decent.
但这是不错的。
I was having a good time.
我玩得很开心。
And there was a couple like down the bar, and they had ordered this big-ass thing of oysters.
酒吧里有一对夫妇，他们点了这种大牡蛎。
It might have been 24 oysters.
可能有 24 个牡蛎。
It was huge.
它是巨大的。
Ta-Nehisi was fine with that.
塔内西对此表示同意。
He loves oysters.
他喜欢牡蛎。
It was what happened next that offended him.
接下来发生的事情让他很生气。
Then the bartender started making drinks, right?
然后调酒师就开始调制饮料了，对吧？
And he makes the woman a sangria and the other dude some sweet something, some red, sweet something-or-other that no one should ever drink.
他给那个女人做了一杯桑格利亚汽酒，给另一个家伙做了一些甜的东西，一些红色的、甜的东西或其他任何人都不应该喝的东西。
And he took it over there, and I was like, you're going to drink sangria and eat oysters?
他把它拿过来，我就想，你要喝桑格利亚汽酒，吃牡蛎吗？
Like, we're doing this now?
比如说，我们现在正在做这个？
Like, this is a thing you're going to do?
就像，这是你要做的事情吗？
Oh, come on.
哦，来吧。
[LAUGHTER] Ta-Nehisi Coates Come on.
[笑声] Ta-Nehisi Coates 加油。
Just order a Hi-C.
只需订购 Hi-C 即可。
Get the Capri Sun.
获取卡普里岛太阳。
Just get the Capri Sun with your oysters.
只需将卡普里岛阳光与牡蛎搭配即可。
I met Ta-Nehisi in the late '90s when we were both working at an alternative weekly newspaper in DC.
我在 90 年代末认识了 Ta-Nehisi，当时我们都在华盛顿的一家另类周报工作。
He was still a student at Howard.
他还是霍华德大学的学生。
I had recently graduated from college.
我刚大学毕业。
I'm pretty sure neither of us had ever even tasted an oyster back then.
我很确定当时我们俩都没有尝过牡蛎。
Instead, we bonded over hip hop, two-for-one happy hours, the enduring craziness of white people, and wanting to be better writers than the ones in our favorite rap magazine.
相反，我们通过嘻哈、二合一的欢乐时光、白人持久的疯狂以及想成为比我们最喜欢的说唱杂志上的作家更好的作家而联系在一起。
We bopped around U Street drinking rail liquor and debating the merits of Ghostface, Buckshot, and Brother J.
我们在 U 街闲逛，喝着铁路酒，讨论鬼脸、铅弹和 J 兄弟的优点。
We did growing-up stuff, too.
我们也做了一些成长的事情。
We paid rent.
我们付了房租。
We met girls.
我们遇到了女孩。
I remember the day Ta-Nehisi came by the cubicle where I worked to tell me his girlfriend was pregnant.
我记得有一天，塔内西来到我工作的小隔间，告诉我他的女朋友怀孕了。
I thought, at 24, his life is over.
我以为，24岁，他的人生就结束了。
But soon, I'd have a godson.
但很快，我就有了一个教子。
We also got pretty serious about writing.
我们对于写作也非常认真。
Eventually, we both ended up in New York.
最终，我们都来到了纽约。
We got jobs.
我们找到了工作。
We got married.
我们结婚了。
Our wives became best friends, as well.
我们的妻子也成了最好的朋友。
We stayed close.
我们保持密切联系。
During all those years, I honestly don't recall fine dining being a big part of our lives, so it's kind of bizarre to hear Ta-Nehisi go on about it now.
老实说，这些年来，我不记得美食是我们生活的重要组成部分，所以现在听到塔内西继续谈论这件事有点奇怪。
The guy talks about food with almost as much passion and conviction as he writes scathing critiques of American institutionalized racism.
这个家伙谈论食物的热情和信念几乎与他写下对美国制度化种族主义的严厉批评一样。
There's this joint in Chicago called the Girl & the Goat, and they made this asparagus last time I was there, and I think about it.
芝加哥有一家名为“女孩与山羊”的酒吧，我上次去那里时他们做了芦笋，我想起来了。
Like I actually think about the vegetables.
就像我实际上想到了蔬菜一样。
[LAUGHS] Ta-Nehisi Coates I mean, what is this?
[笑] Ta-Nehisi Coates 我的意思是，这是什么？
[LAUGHS] Like sex or something.
[笑]比如性什么的。
Like, I think about it.
就像，我想了一下。
Like god, that was awesome.
就像上帝一样，那太棒了。
That was great.
那很棒。
I can't imagine feeling so strongly about vegetables.
我无法想象对蔬菜有如此强烈的感觉。
But we're laughing and drinking adult beverages.
但我们却笑着喝着成人饮料。
This is fun and kind of familiar.
这很有趣而且有点熟悉。
What?
什么？
Neil Drumming The New Year's Eve parties at the place you used to live in--
尼尔在你以前住的地方打鼓参加除夕派对——
Lefferts Garden.
莱弗茨花园。
Neil Drumming Lefferts Garden, which is a completely different place now.
尼尔鼓明莱弗茨花园，现在已经是一个完全不同的地方了。
Yeah.
是的。
Neil Drumming But I remember, we used to have those-- remember we'd have those wine parties, and you had to bring a bottle of wine.
尼尔·鼓手但我记得，我们曾经有过那些——记得我们会举办那些酒会，你必须带一瓶酒。
Yeah, I didn't like that.
是的，我不喜欢那样。
Neil Drumming You remember this?
尼尔·击鼓 你还记得这个吗？
You didn't like that?
你不喜欢这样吗？
Why?
为什么？
Why didn't you like that?
你为什么不喜欢那样？
That felt status-y to me.
这对我来说感觉很有地位。
Neil Drumming Really?
尼尔打鼓真的吗？
I mean, what are we doing?
我的意思是，我们在做什么？
We're tasting wine and doing-- I mean, what is this?
我们一边品尝葡萄酒一边做——我的意思是，这是什么？
But remember, it was like you could bring-- everybody brought kind of cheap wine.
但请记住，就像你可以带——每个人都带一些便宜的酒。
People were just--
人们只是——
I mean, [INAUDIBLE] now we're getting to why one wouldn't like it.
我的意思是，[听不清]现在我们正在了解为什么人们不喜欢它。
So we're, like, swapping cheap wine?
所以我们就像在交换廉价葡萄酒？
[LAUGHS] Ta-Nehisi Coates Like, what are we doing?
[笑] Ta-Nehisi Coates 就像，我们在做什么？
Are we just-- I think like my read on that was, are we doing this just to say we're the kind of Negroes that eat cheese and drink wine?
我们是否只是——我想就像我读到的那样，我们这样做只是为了说我们是那种吃奶酪、喝葡萄酒的黑人吗？
There was a point where we didn't go, like, really nice places, right?
有一段时间我们没有去一些非常好的地方，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
And we just-- Ta-Nehisi Coates Isn't it call Lucky's?
我们只是—— Ta-Nehisi Coates 这不是叫Lucky's吗？
Isn't that who it's called?
这不是叫的那个人吗？
Yeah, the joint on the-- Ira Glass Like 50-something?
是的，像 50 岁左右的 Ira Glass 的联合？
It's like Hell's Kitchen.
这就像地狱厨房。
Yeah, we used to go there a lot.
是的，我们以前经常去那里。
We used to get burgers.
我们以前吃汉堡。
I mean, what's-- OK, listen.
我的意思是，什么——好吧，听着。
I've known you, what, 19 years?
我认识你，什么，19年了？
20 years?
20年？
Long time.
很久。
Neil Drumming The majority of that time, we ate wings and burgers.
尼尔·鼓手（Neil Drumming） 大部分时间我们都吃鸡翅和汉堡。
Right.
正确的。
Neil Drumming Pretty much the majority of that time.
尼尔几乎大部分时间都在打鼓。
And I did eat that stuff then, and I was fine.
然后我确实吃了那些东西，我很好。
Yeah, all the time.
是的，一直如此。
Ta-Nehisi Coates So what happened?
塔-内西斯·科茨 那么发生了什么？
This is the reason that you're sitting here, as I'm asking you.
这就是我问你的你坐在这里的原因。
OK, well, this is the question.
好吧，这就是问题。
I mean, but-- I mean, how much would you attribute it to that?
我的意思是，但是——我的意思是，你认为这在多大程度上归因于这一点？
A lot.
很多。
Neil Drumming Yeah?
尼尔打鼓 是吗？
Was that ever uncomfortable for you?
这让你感到不舒服吗？
The money's uncomfortable.
有钱不舒服啊
Neil Drumming Yeah.
尼尔打鼓 是的。
The money's uncomfortable.
有钱不舒服啊
Um-- why is the money uncomfortable?
嗯——为什么钱不舒服？
Because you have the money, but like, in your mind, you haven't changed.
因为你有钱，但你的想法却没有改变。
Like you still rock a hoodie.
就像你仍然穿着连帽衫一样。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Ta-Nehisi Coates The food is not uncomfortable.
Ta-Nehisi Coates 食物并不令人不舒服。
The food feels like some bringing to fruition of something that was always there.
食物感觉像是某种一直存在的东西的成果。
Mm.
毫米。
Maybe it is bringing to fruition something that was already there.
也许它正在实现一些已经存在的东西。
Ta-Nehisi was always a little picky about what kind of beer he drank.
塔内西斯对自己喝的啤酒总是有点挑剔。
And he'd get anxious whenever his hair got a little bushy, even back in the broke DC days when a regular haircut was an extravagance.
每当他的头发变得有点浓密时，他就会感到焦虑，即使是在华盛顿破败的日子里，定期理发还是一种奢侈。
I started to wonder if maybe there had been snobbiness under the surface all along and I just missed it.
我开始怀疑表面之下是否一直存在着势利，而我只是错过了它。
Still, those are small things, right?
不过，这些都是小事，对吧？
He appreciates a nice meal and a trim.
他喜欢一顿美餐和整洁。
So what?
所以呢？
OK.
好的。
You would go, or you do?
你会去，还是你去？
Ta-Nehisi Coates I do.
塔-内西斯·科茨 我愿意。
You do.
你做。
Ta-Nehisi Coates I go to a really nice gym.
塔-内西斯·科茨（Ta-Nehisi Coates） 我去一家非常好的健身房。
How nice is your gym?
你的健身房有多好？
What gym could be that nice?
哪个健身房可以这么好？
I don't want to name the gym.
我不想说出健身房的名字。
But I can tell you about the gym.
但我可以告诉你关于健身房的事。
[LAUGHS] Ta-Nehisi Coates I mean when I'm in America.
[笑] Ta-Nehisi Coates 我指的是我在美国的时候。
Which--
其中——
OK.
好的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates I mean, that was the ultimate snob statement right there.
塔-内西斯·科茨（Ta-Nehisi Coates） 我的意思是，那是最终的势利声明。
I go to a nice gym in Paris, too.
我也去巴黎一家不错的健身房。
Yeah, different gyms.
是的，不同的健身房。
Neil Drumming They're not the same brand.
尼尔·鼓手 他们不是同一个品牌。
No, no, no. But it's just, like, very nice.
不，不，不。但它只是，非常好。
OK.
好的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates I have personal training.
塔-内西斯·科茨（Ta-Nehisi Coates） 我有私人训练。
[LAUGHTS Ta-Nehisi Coates Which is snobbery.
[Ta-Nehisi Coates 笑道：这太势利了。
Yeah, I can sort of see that.
是的，我可以看到这一点。
Ta-Nehisi Coates I mean, which is-- you know, I mean, I can defend it for you, but it is.
塔-内西斯·科茨（Ta-Nehisi Coates）我的意思是，你知道，我的意思是，我可以为你辩护，但事实确实如此。
It is.
这是。
It's like privileged to be able to pay for that, right?
能够为此付出代价就像是一种荣幸，对吧？
Like that's some amount of something, you know?
就像那是一些东西，你知道吗？
I started getting my hair cut every week, too.
我也开始每周剪头发。
Well, that was something you always wanted, though.
好吧，那是你一直想要的东西。
Oh, I did always want that.
哦，我一直想要这样。
Neil Drumming You used to talk about that a lot.
尼尔·鼓明（Neil Drumming） 你曾经经常谈论这个问题。
Yeah, I always wanted that.
是的，我一直想要这样。
Neil Drumming You used--
尼尔打鼓你用过——
I don't know.
我不知道。
Ta-Nehisi Coates I think I'm a snob, but I don't think I'm bougie.
Ta-Nehisi Coates 我认为我是一个势利小人，但我不认为我是一个布吉。
OK.
好的。
That's like-- I feel like for This American Life , you're going to have to explain that.
这就像——我觉得对于《美国生活》，你必须解释一下。
OK, what bougie means?
好吧，探条是什么意思？
Neil Drumming Yeah.
尼尔打鼓 是的。
You're gonna have to--
你必须——
So "bougie" is a term that black people use-- and I guess white people have used it now, 'cause I see white people using it-- which I think people think is interchangeable with "snob." But I actually don't think.
所以“bougie”是黑人使用的一个术语——我想白人现在也使用它，因为我看到白人使用它——我认为人们认为它可以与“势利小人”互换。但其实我不这么认为。
OK.
好的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates OK.
塔-内西斯·科茨 好的。
So like [INAUDIBLE] say, you know, a bougie's a person who's snob, looks down.
就像[听不清]说的，你知道，探条是一个势利、低头的人。
But see, bougie people want to be part of a crowd.
但是你看，探条人想要成为人群的一部分。
OK.
好的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates Like, they want to be part of the right crowd.
塔-内西斯·科茨（Ta-Nehisi Coates）就像，他们想成为合适人群的一部分。
So for instance, I don't want to put my son in some exclusive club or something, literally like some sort of societal something or other.
举例来说，我不想让我的儿子加入一些专属俱乐部或其他什么，实际上就像某种社会活动或其他。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
So bougie is a status thing.
所以探条是一种地位的东西。
It's about--
这是关于——
Yeah, I don't care about any of that.
是的，我不在乎这些。
I actually don't care about my status.
其实我并不在意自己的地位。
OK.
好的。
All right, all right.
好吧，好吧。
Ta-Nehisi Coates Yeah, I don't go to a nice gym so that I can then tell you I go to a nice gym.
Ta-Nehisi Coates 是的，我不去一个好的健身房，所以我可以告诉你我去了一个好的健身房。
I don't have any concern about being seen with the right people.
我并不担心是否会被看到与合适的人在一起。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Like, I don't have that.
比如说，我没有那个。
I don't need to be at the right parties.
我不需要参加合适的聚会。
OK.
好的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates Like, I don't need any of that.
Ta-Nehisi Coates 就像，我不需要这些。
OK.
好的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates And I don't really look down on people who aren't, like, around the right people.
Ta-Nehisi Coates 我并不是真的看不起那些不在合适的人身边的人。
Like, I don't have that.
比如说，我没有那个。
That's bougie.
那是布吉。
OK.
好的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates Snobbery, to me, is about, like, things.
塔-内西斯·科茨势利，对我来说，是关于事物的。
[LAUGHS] And not about people at all.
[笑]根本不是关于人的。
In fact, it's much worse than bougie.
事实上，它比布吉差得多。
'Cause it's--
因为它是——
Maybe Ta-Nehisi doesn't care about being with the right people.
也许塔内西斯并不关心与合适的人在一起。
I've seen him blow off invitations to hang out with TV stars and dodge the attention of world-famous rappers.
我见过他拒绝与电视明星一起出去玩的邀请，并躲避世界著名说唱歌手的注意。
But he does move in elite circles these days, hanging out with Michael Chabon, collaborating with David Simon, lunches with David Remnick.
但如今他确实在精英圈子里活动，与迈克尔·查邦 (Michael Chabon) 一起出去玩，与大卫·西蒙 (David Simon) 合作，与大卫·雷姆尼克 (David Remnick) 共进午餐。
For the record, that's a Pulitzer Prize-winning author, the creator of The Wire , and the editor of The New Yorker .
据记载，他是普利策奖获得者、《火线》杂志的创始人和《纽约客》的编辑。
Me, I work at home.
我呢，在家工作。
I cut my own hair.
我自己剪头发。
And I definitely prefer burgers to oysters.
与牡蛎相比，我绝对更喜欢汉堡。
And that's cool.
这很酷。
This isn't about envy for me.
这不是对我的嫉妒。
I don't feel jealous.
我不觉得嫉妒。
I've thought about it, and it's not that.
我想了一下，并不是这样的。
But it does feel weird, and I'm not sure why.
但确实感觉很奇怪，我也不知道为什么。
And I just kind of wanted to understand that.
我只是想了解这一点。
I guess in some ways, I have, like, fretted that, like, maybe we were losing pace with each other.
我想在某些方面，我有点担心，也许我们正在失去彼此的步伐。
Like I was kind of like--
就像我有点像——
(SHOCKED) For food?
（震惊）为了食物？
Neil Drumming No. I mean-- but the food goes with a lot of other things.
尼尔·鼓明：不。我的意思是——但是食物可以和很多其他东西搭配。
It's like, you know, it's not just the food.
就像，你知道，这不仅仅是食物。
But it's like, thinking that-- you know, it's like maybe like lifestyle stuff.
但这就像，你知道，这就像生活方式的东西。
What else was I doing?
我还做了什么？
Neil Drumming I don't know, like--
尼尔打鼓我不知道，就像——
Going to France?
去法国？
Neil Drumming Staying at Chabon's house, stuff like that, just having these experiences that seem like--
尼尔·鼓明（Neil Drumming）住在查邦（Chabon）家里，诸如此类的事情，只是经历了这些看起来像——
I mean, these are people, but it just-- I don't think I've changed, actually.
我的意思是，这些都是人，但实际上，我认为我没有改变。
So I just want-- like, how does this go?
所以我只是想——比如，事情进展如何？
I stay at Chabon's house, and then I do what?
我住在Chabon家里，然后我该怎么办？
Nothing.
没有什么。
That-- it's just-- Ta-Nehisi Coates [LAUGHS] Like who do I come back as [INAUDIBLE]?
那——这只是——Ta-Nehisi Coates [笑] 就像我回来时的[听不清] 一样？
What happens?
会发生什么？
Neil Drumming The embarrassing part about it is that it actually has more to do with, like, me.
尼尔·鼓手（Neil Drumming） 令人尴尬的是，它实际上更多地与我有关。
I don't know if I can communicate or, like, relate anymore.
我不知道我是否还能沟通或者联系。
No, we never did.
不，我们从来没有这样做过。
You just-- Ta-Nehisi Coates How much of that is the divorce, though?
你只是——Ta-Nehisi Coates 不过，其中有多少是离婚造成的？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Why-- explain.
为什么——解释一下。
How do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Well, you had this huge rupture in your life, right?
好吧，你的生活经历过一次巨大的破裂，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates And your lifestyle changed.
Ta-Nehisi Coates 你的生活方式也改变了。
I mean, your lifestyle changes.
我的意思是，你的生活方式改变了。
That's true.
这是真的。
Ta-Nehisi Coates I mean, you're out dating and doing, you know, whatever you're doing.
塔-内西斯·科茨（Ta-Nehisi Coates） 我的意思是，你出去约会并做任何你在做的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Things did get a little crazy for me after my divorce a couple years ago, more so than I'd like to admit.
几年前离婚后，事情对我来说确实有点疯狂，比我愿意承认的还要疯狂。
But it hadn't occurred to me that he would think I was the one who had changed, that that might be the reason for the distance between us.
但我没想到他会认为我变了，这可能就是我们之间距离的原因。
And after the divorce, Ta-Nehisi did keep reaching out.
离婚后，塔内西斯确实继续与我们联系。
He'd call to talk about writing, or to get feedback on what he was working on, which was always kind of confusing to me.
他会打电话谈论写作，或者获取有关他正在做的事情的反馈，这总是让我感到困惑。
I have to admit, I'm kind of like, well, you could also call David Simon, or any of these people who you have on speed dial--
我必须承认，我有点像，嗯，你也可以打电话给大卫·西蒙，或者你在快速拨号上的任何一个人——
Yeah, but my friends haven't really changed, you know that?
是的，但我的朋友并没有真正改变，你知道吗？
Why would I call them?
我为什么要给他们打电话？
First of all, they're not smarter than you.
首先，他们并不比你聪明。
I mean, I'm not trying to flatter-- like there's no evidence that they're smarter than you.
我的意思是，我并不是想奉承——就像没有证据表明他们比你聪明一样。
Like the fact that they've gotten more, or had more accolades, it doesn't mean they're smarter than you.
就像他们获得更多或获得更多荣誉一样，这并不意味着他们比你聪明。
In anyone else's perception in the world, right, they are.
在世界上其他人的看法中，他们确实是这样。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
They are.
他们是。
They would be.
他们会的。
Those people would be.
那些人会是。
Those are--
那些是——
But I don't think-- I haven't talked to them.
但我不认为——我还没有和他们谈过。
Out of respect for them, I don't think they think they are.
出于对他们的尊重，我认为他们并不这么认为。
But I don't think that's their perception of themselves.
但我不认为这是他们对自己的看法。
And I'm gonna-- I am sensitive to this right now, like right now, because of what's going on.
我会——我现在对此很敏感，就像现在一样，因为正在发生的事情。
People put shit on you, man.
人们对你不屑一顾，伙计。
They put shit on you.
他们对你放屁。
What do you mean?
你是什么意思？
Ta-Nehisi Coates Well, the world talks about you in a certain way, and it becomes very easy to confuse what everyone says about you with how you actually think of yourself.
塔-内西斯·科茨 嗯，世界以某种方式谈论你，很容易将每个人对你的评价与你对自己的实际看法相混淆。
M..
米..
I think it was wanting to feel like we're still on the same level, which has not-- it's not an intellectual thing as much as it is, like-- it is an intellectual thing because our friendship is intellectual.
我认为我们想要感觉我们仍然处于同一水平，这并不是——这不是一个理智的事情，就像——这是一个理智的事情，因为我们的友谊是理智的。
Right, right, right.
对，对，对。
Neil Drumming That friendship is heartfelt and true, but also, like, the way we come up is ideas.
尼尔·鼓明（Neil Drumming）这种友谊是真诚而真实的，但同时，我们提出的方式也是想法。
Like you and I have a kinship of ideas, you, me, and Rick.
就像你和我的想法有亲缘关系一样，你、我和瑞克。
Right.
正确的。
Neil Drumming And we've always had that.
尼尔·击鼓 我们一直都有这样的经历。
And so when I feel-- so like having an intellectual disparity makes that friendship feel tenuous to me.
因此，当我觉得——智力上的差距让我感觉友谊变得脆弱时。
I think I was afraid to say that to you, because I was afraid that would actually upset the friendship.
我想我不敢对你说这些，因为我担心这实际上会破坏友谊。
I don't know, man.
我不知道，伙计。
You know, like the other part of that is it's just not-- I'm happy to be at The Atlantic .
你知道，就像其他部分一样，我很高兴来到大西洋月刊。
I'm happy that this book got published.
我很高兴这本书出版了。
I gotta tell you, all the other shit don't make me very happy.
我得告诉你，所有其他的事情都不会让我很开心。
OK, now this is probably not for the tape.
好吧，现在这可能不适合磁带。
But this is some shit I thought of, and it really hit me this weekend, or last weekend.
但这是我想到的一些狗屎，这个周末或上周末它真的让我震惊。
Because I realized that I was doing a lot of intellectual gymnastics in my head about how I felt about us, and I realized I've seen you a bunch of times since then, and you're going through something, and I'm not asking you if you're OK.
因为我意识到我在脑子里做了很多关于我对我们的感觉的智力体操，而且我意识到从那时起我已经见过你很多次了，你正在经历一些事情，我不是在问你是否还好。
And I haven't asked you, like, if you're--
我还没有问过你，比如，你是否——
No, I'm not OK.
不，我不好。
[LAUGHS] Neil Drumming And that's the thing that hit me, literally, like this weekend.
[笑] 尼尔击鼓 这就是让我震惊的事情，字面意义上的，就像这个周末一样。
I was like, wait a minute.
我当时想，等一下。
I've been really selfish about this.
我在这件事上真的很自私。
No, it's all right.
不，没关系。
No, I'm not.
不，我不是。
I mean, I don't want to-- look at this shit.
我的意思是，我不想——看看这个狗屎。
I was in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
我当时在密歇根州卡拉马祖。
Look at this shit.
看看这个狗屎。
OK, so for the tape, just for the record, I'm looking at a billboard of Ta-Nehisi Coates-- that's a young pic.
好吧，对于录像带，只是为了记录，我正在看塔-内西斯·科茨的广告牌——那是一张年轻的照片。
You're, like, 12 in that picture.
那张照片里的你大概12岁。
No, it was like-- they took it when I first got to The Atlantic .
不，就像——当我第一次到达大西洋月刊时他们就拿走了它。
Maybe I'm 33.
也许我已经33岁了。
Neil Drumming --of a young Ta-Nehisi Coates hanging over a freeway in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
尼尔·鼓明——年轻的塔内西·科茨在密歇根州卡拉马祖的高速公路上徘徊。
"Ta-Nehisi Coates, November 3, Miller Auditorium." Holy shit.
“Ta-Nehisi Coates，11 月 3 日，米勒礼堂。”天哪。
She must want to know, is she seeing that?
她一定想知道，她看到了吗？
OK, so what's the good in that?
好吧，那么这有什么好处呢？
What's the good in that and what's the bad in that?
这有什么好处，有什么坏处？
I mean, the good in that is that, um-- the message is going to a lot of people.
我的意思是，这样做的好处是，嗯——这个信息会传达给很多人。
Like, what you write is clearly, on some level, being received by a lot of people.
就像，你写的东西在某种程度上显然被很多人接受。
The bad in that is my face.
不好的是我的脸。
Ta-Nehisi doesn't like having his face on a billboard.
塔内西不喜欢自己的脸出现在广告牌上。
He doesn't like being recognized in the street.
他不喜欢在街上被人认出来。
I know the guy.
我认识那个人。
I don't have many people in my life I know as well as him.
我一生中没有多少人像他一样了解。
He's never wanted to be famous or celebrated.
他从来不想出名或庆祝。
In that way, he's right.
这样看来，他是对的。
He hasn't changed.
他没有改变。
He and I talked for two more hours, and it felt like it always has.
他和我又聊了两个小时，感觉就像一直如此。
But we've lost a lot of the other stuff, the stuff that makes most friendships work.
但我们失去了很多其他的东西，那些让大多数友谊得以维持的东西。
We don't go to the same parties or eat in the same restaurants.
我们不会去相同的聚会或在相同的餐厅吃饭。
We don't share as many friends.
我们没有那么多共同的朋友。
He's raising a kid, and I just quit Tinder.
他正在抚养一个孩子，而我刚刚退出了 Tinder。
We don't even live in the same country.
我们甚至不住在同一个国家。
Without all of that, what we have left feels more delicate.
如果没有这一切，我们剩下的东西会感觉更加微妙。
So now I have another worry.
所以现在我还有另一个担心。
I worry that the conversation that I just forced us to have, where I made such a big deal out of our differences, has in some way screwed with that friendship even more.
我担心我刚刚强迫我们进行的谈话，我对我们之间的分歧如此重视，在某种程度上更加破坏了我们的友谊。
I went to see Ta-Nehisi speak at the Schomburg Center in Harlem.
我去哈莱姆区的朔姆堡中心观看了塔内西斯的演讲。
It was the first time I'd been to one of his public appearances in a very long time.
这是我很长时间以来第一次参加他的公开露面。
The line outside was around the corner.
外面的队伍就在拐角处。
When the audience was let in, they spilled over into a different room.
当观众被允许进入时，他们涌入另一个房间。
9,000 people had RSVP'd for 350 seats.
9,000 人通过回复获得了 350 个席位。
Ta-Nehisi was engaging and provocative on stage.
塔内西斯在舞台上充满魅力和挑衅性。
I felt proud.
我感到自豪。
He was nice on the mic, and the crowd loved him.
他在麦克风上表现得很好，观众很喜欢他。
It's very, very important to me that I remember to go back to that and not enroll myself in my own dream.
对我来说非常非常重要的是，我要记住回到过去，不要让自己陷入自己的梦想。
[CHEERING AND APPLAUSE] I've been thinking about it.
[欢呼和掌声]我一直在思考这个问题。
I've been thinking about it.
我一直在想。
Afterwards, I waited outside the green room with Ta-Nehisi's wife and a handful of his friends, some from his Howard days.
之后，我和塔内西斯的妻子以及他的几个朋友（其中一些是他霍华德时代的朋友）一起在休息室外面等着。
Celebrities like Common and Usher were there as well, pressing to get backstage to meet him.
像 Common 和 Usher 这样的名人也在那里，争先恐后地到后台与他见面。
I chatted with his son, Samori, my godson, about how he was liking Paris.
我和他的儿子萨莫里（我的教子）聊了聊他是如何喜欢巴黎的。
He was having girl trouble.
他遇到了女孩的麻烦。
Like his dad used to, I joked.
就像他爸爸以前那样，我开玩笑说。
We had dinner reservations at Red Rooster in Harlem, but it was live jazz night and they wanted us to pay to be quiet.
我们在哈莱姆区的红公鸡餐厅预订了晚餐，但那是现场爵士乐之夜，他们希望我们付钱才能保持安静。
Ta-Nehisi wasn't having it.
塔内西斯不同意。
Later he'd say the joint was bougie.
后来他会说这个关节是探条。
So we went down the street to Sylvia's and had a great time.
所以我们沿着街道去了西尔维娅家，玩得很开心。
We gotta go, babe.
我们得走了，宝贝。
Kenyatta Matthews Bye, guys.
肯雅塔·马修斯 再见，伙计们。
All right, talk to you.
好吧，跟你谈谈。
Neil Drumming I'm not gonna see you for--
尼尔·鼓明 我不会再见到你了——
Of course, man.
当然，伙计。
Ta-Nehisi Coates You had a good time?
塔-内西斯·科茨 你玩得开心吗？
Yeah, of course, man.
是的，当然，伙计。
Ta-Nehisi Coates OK.
塔-内西斯·科茨 好的。
All right, cool.
好吧，酷。
OK.
好的。
All right, let me give you a quick hug.
好吧，让我给你一个快速的拥抱。
It was good seeing you.
很高兴见到你。
[INAUDIBLE].
[听不清]。
Kenyatta Matthews Oh, you are.
肯雅塔·马修斯哦，你是。
Catch you soon, brother.
很快就找到你了，兄弟。
Neil Drumming All right, man.
尼尔打鼓 好吧，伙计。
Let me know when you get back.
当你回来时请告诉我。
Ta-Nehisi climbed into a black SUV, went back to his hotel, and hopped on a plane the next morning.
塔内西斯爬上一辆黑色SUV，回到酒店，第二天早上跳上飞机。
I stood on the street, fumbling with my recorder.
我站在街上，摸索着我的录音机。
For some reason, it took me a really long time to figure out how to turn it off.
出于某种原因，我花了很长时间才弄清楚如何将其关闭。
Then I headed home to Brooklyn.
然后我就回到布鲁克林的家。
I don't know what's going to happen next.
我不知道接下来会发生什么。
Ira Glass Neil Drumming is one of the producers of our show.
艾拉·格拉斯·尼尔·鼓明 (Ira Glass Neil Drumming) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Coming up, an entire town gets a status update, and they are not super stoked about it.
接下来，整个城镇都会收到状态更新，但他们对此并不感到非常兴奋。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on the program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，每周的节目我们都会选择一个主题，为您带来关于该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's program-- "Status Update."
今天的节目——“状态更新”。
Today's program is about people whose position in the world changes, in one way or another, and how they deal with it.
今天的节目是关于那些在世界上的地位以某种方式发生变化的人们，以及他们如何应对这种变化。
So far on our show, we've had a literal status update, the social media kind.
到目前为止，在我们的节目中，我们已经进行了字面上的状态更新，即社交媒体类型的更新。
We've heard what it sounds like inside a friendship where there's been a major shift in status.
我们已经听过友谊中地位发生重大转变的感觉。
And now we've arrived at Act Three of our show.
现在我们已经到了节目的第三幕了。
Act Three, There Owes the Neighborhood.
第三幕，邻居欠我们的。
In this act, we're going to look at an entire city getting a status update.
在本次行动中，我们将看到整个城市的状态更新。
And the man who gave this city the news about itself was named Paul Kiel.
给这座城市带来消息的人名叫保罗·基尔。
Before the city knew, Paul Kiel knew.
在整个城市知道之前，保罗·基尔就知道了。
And before Paul Kiel knew, nobody knew.
在保罗·基尔知道之前，没有人知道。
Here's what happened.
事情是这样的。
Paul's an investigative reporter with ProPublica.
保罗是 ProPublica 的一名调查记者。
And he discovered that over the last 15 years, this new kind of debt collector has become more prevalent.
他发现，在过去 15 年里，这种新型收债人变得更加普遍。
These are companies that go after people who owe on their credit cards, or car loans, or hospital bills, or whatever.
这些公司会追究那些欠信用卡、汽车贷款、医院账单等欠款的人。
And these companies, what they do is they garnish people's wages.
而这些公司，他们所做的就是扣押人们的工资。
They garnish their wages.
他们克扣工资。
They take the money right out of their paychecks.
他们直接从工资中扣除这笔钱。
Sometimes they go straight into their bank accounts and take the money.
有时他们会直接进入他们的银行账户并拿走钱。
They got this power by taking these people to court.
他们通过将这些人告上法庭而获得了这种权力。
Way more consumers who owe money are being taken to court.
越来越多欠钱的消费者被告上法庭。
These companies sue those consumers, which used to be rare.
这些公司起诉这些消费者，这在过去很少见。
They sue, and they win.
他们起诉，并且赢了。
And because they win, they get the power to garnish these wages.
因为他们赢了，他们就有权扣押这些工资。
OK, so figuring out that part was just the beginning.
好的，弄清楚这一部分只是一个开始。
Chana Joffe-Walt talked to Paul Kiel.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特与保罗·基尔进行了交谈。
It was a struggle to get numbers on wage garnishing.
要获得扣发工资的数据是很困难的。
How many people?
有多少人？
How much money?
多少钱？
Where were those people?
那些人在哪里？
Paul Kiel loves this kind of thing.
保罗基尔喜欢这种事情。
He's an even-measured guy who enjoys the grunt work of tracking down which file cabinet in which municipal building of which small town has the information he needs.
他是一个身材匀称的人，喜欢追踪哪个小镇的哪个市政大楼的哪个文件柜里有他需要的信息的繁重工作。
Eventually, Paul and his colleague Annie Waldman had managed to track down the names and addresses of every single person who'd been sued for not paying their debts in three cities-- Newark, Chicago, and St. Louis.
最终，保罗和他的同事安妮·沃尔德曼成功地查到了纽瓦克、芝加哥和圣路易斯这三个城市因未偿还债务而被起诉的每个人的姓名和地址。
They put all that information into the computer, and then Paul looked at what they had.
他们将所有这些信息输入计算机，然后保罗查看他们拥有的信息。
Without doing a fancy analysis, if we sorted our neighborhoods so that the ones that had the most lawsuits were at the top, it was all black neighborhoods.
无需进行花哨的分析，如果我们对社区进行排序，使诉讼最多的社区位于顶部，那么所有社区都是黑人社区。
In Newark, Chicago-- Paul Kiel In Newark and Chicago and in St. Louis.
在芝加哥纽瓦克——Paul Kiel 在纽瓦克、芝加哥和圣路易斯。
So there were way more lawsuits in black neighborhoods than in white neighborhoods.
因此，黑人社区的诉讼比白人社区要多得多。
Yes.
是的。
That was clear no matter how you looked at it.
无论你怎么看，这一点都很清楚。
In neighborhoods that had the same income level, the same household income, on average, we were finding twice as many lawsuits in the mostly black neighborhoods.
平均而言，在具有相同收入水平、相同家庭收入的社区中，我们发现以黑人为主的社区的诉讼数量是其两倍。
And then it was a real question of why.
然后这是一个真正的问题：为什么。
Paul knew people would look at this and think what I thought.
保罗知道人们会看到这个并想到我的想法。
This is just discrimination-- companies targeting black people and black neighborhoods.
这只是歧视——公司针对黑人和黑人社区。
No, I didn't.
不，我没有。
No, I didn't jump to that conclusion, just because I know how it's such a large and impersonal system.
不，我并没有急于得出这个结论，只是因为我知道这是一个如此庞大且客观的系统。
You know, debt-buying companies and other banks might never meet their customers.
你知道，债务购买公司和其他银行可能永远不会见到他们的客户。
You're literally a name on a spreadsheet to these companies.
对于这些公司来说，您实际上就是电子表格上的一个名字。
So it was immediately like a puzzle that we needed to find an answer to.
所以这就像一个谜题一样，我们需要找到答案。
Paul's first clue to the answer came when he went to a place called Jennings, Missouri.
当保罗前往密苏里州詹宁斯市时，他第一次找到了答案。
Jennings is a suburb of St. Louis, home to an astonishing amount of wage garnishing.
詹宁斯是圣路易斯的郊区，扣留工资的数额惊人。
And Jennings is where Paul met Cori Winfield.
詹宁斯是保罗遇见科里·温菲尔德的地方。
Cori was the first person to show Paul her paycheck.
科里是第一个向保罗展示她的薪水的人。
She works for a brokerage services firm in St. Louis.
她在圣路易斯的一家经纪服务公司工作。
I just got paid Friday.
我星期五刚发工资。
And my check is usually, gross, around $1,100, $1,200, something like that.
我的支票通常是毛额，大约是 1,100 美元、1,200 美元之类的。
But when I got my-- when I got paid Friday, I had $691 on my check.
但是当我周五收到工资时，我的支票上有 691 美元。
My rent is $750.
我的房租是 750 美元。
Here's how this happened.
这是如何发生的。
Cori was married-- four kids and a neat brick bungalow under a shady tree with a patch of grass just large enough to be called a lawn.
科里结婚了——她有四个孩子，在一棵阴凉的树下有一栋整洁的砖砌平房，树上有一小片草地，大得足以称为草坪。
She had a mortgage on that brick bungalow, and she had a van she bought in 2009 for $8,000.
她在那栋砖砌平房上抵押了贷款，还拥有一辆 2009 年花 8,000 美元买的面包车。
The loan on that van is the one that got her in trouble.
那辆货车的贷款给她带来了麻烦。
That's the loan Cori's now paying for out of her paycheck.
这就是科里现在用她的薪水支付的贷款。
So the lender in this case was Midwest Acceptance, which is like a St. Louis-based, mostly subprime auto loan company.
因此，本案中的贷款人是 Midwest Acceptance，它就像一家总部位于圣路易斯的主要是次级汽车贷款公司。
Midwest Acceptance.
中西部验收。
Paul Kiel Midwest Acceptance, yes.
保罗·基尔中西部接受，是的。
Subprime meaning high interest rate.
次贷意味着高利率。
Really high-- 30%.
确实很高——30%。
In 2010, Cori stopped paying the car loan.
2010年，科里停止支付汽车贷款。
And she stopped paying it for a bunch of reasons.
她出于多种原因停止支付。
Her husband left, so she had to carry the car loan and the mortgage on the brick bungalow with the small patch of grass all by herself.
丈夫走了，她一个人承担了车贷和那片砖瓦房的抵押贷款。
Also, Cori's stepfather died.
此外，科里的继父也去世了。
She got a new boyfriend.
她有了一个新男朋友。
Her boyfriend was killed.
她的男朋友被杀了。
She took a brief absence from work.
她短暂缺席了工作。
One of her dogs died.
她的一只狗死了。
She describes herself at this time as very distracted.
她形容自己此时非常心烦意乱。
So I wasn't keeping up with court dates.
所以我没有跟上法庭日期。
I wasn't paying attention to the notices they were sending in the mail.
我没有注意他们在邮件中发送的通知。
And they were sending lots of notices.
他们发出了很多通知。
They were calling, too.
他们也在打电话。
Midwest Acceptance.
中西部验收。
And they'd be like, um, when are you going to be in to make a payment?
他们会说，嗯，你什么时候去付款？
I'll be in, um, on my next pay period.
我将在，嗯，下一个发薪期。
Well, we need you to come in before then.
好吧，我们需要你在那之前进来。
You're going to have to do something.
你必须做点什么。
You don't got a grandma you can call?
你没有可以打电话的奶奶吗？
You don't got a mama you can call?
你没有可以打电话的妈妈吗？
Or little stuff like that.
或者诸如此类的小事。
Chana Joffe-Walt The grandma.
查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 奶奶。
This turned out to be Paul's answer.
这就是保罗的回答。
Cori did have a grandma she often called, but her grandma was already trying to help Cori save her house.
科里确实有一个经常打电话的奶奶，但她的奶奶已经在努力帮助科里拯救她的房子了。
And she was helping Cori with car rides once Midwest repo'd Cori's car.
中西部回收了科里的汽车后，她就帮助科里开车。
Her grandma was also helping Cori's mom and her uncle.
她的奶奶也在帮助科里的妈妈和她的叔叔。
And she was doing all that on a pension.
而她做这一切都是靠养老金。
Cori's grandma was the only person she'd ever been able to call in this kind of situation.
在这种情况下，科丽的奶奶是她唯一能够打电话给她的人。
If you ask people, could you borrow $3,000 from a friend or family member in an emergency?
如果你问别人，在紧急情况下你能向朋友或家人借 3,000 美元吗？
White people are much more likely to say yes.
白人更有可能说“是”。
Poor whites, a white person living in abject poverty, has roughly the same ability to borrow $3,000 in an emergency as a middle-class black person.
贫穷的白人，即生活在赤贫中的白人，在紧急情况下借到 3000 美元的能力与中产阶级黑人大致相同。
That's according to the largest national survey of consumer finance.
这是根据最大规模的全国消费者金融调查得出的结论。
If you compare Jennings, where Cori was, to white towns where people make the same amount of money?
如果你将科里所在的詹宁斯与人们赚同样多钱的白人城镇进行比较？
In that income bracket, whites, on average, have five times the wealth as black households.
在这个收入阶层中，白人家庭的平均财富是黑人家庭的五倍。
So wealth meaning home ownership and savings and investments and all of that stuff?
那么财富意味着拥有房屋、储蓄和投资以及所有这些东西吗？
It's like everything you have that you could turn into money, whether it be equity in your home, or your car, or whatever.
就像你拥有的一切都可以变成金钱，无论是你的房屋、汽车还是其他什么。
It was right in front of me.
它就在我面前。
So if people in the same income level have five times the wealth, it seems very credible that that would have a major impact on whether they're able to deal with a debt.
因此，如果相同收入水平的人拥有五倍的财富，这似乎非常可信，这将对他们是否有能力处理债务产生重大影响。
That, to me, is-- the answer's right there.
对我来说，答案就在那里。
And you were asking me, like, well, is this because of discrimination?
你问我，这是因为歧视吗？
And we don't have direct evidence that these suits are happening more often in black communities because of discrimination, but the racial wealth gap is definitely because of discrimination.
而且我们没有直接证据表明这些诉讼在黑人社区更频繁地发生是因为歧视，但种族贫富差距肯定是因为歧视。
So why do we have a racial wealth gap?
那么为什么我们会存在种族贫富差距呢？
Because we had centuries of racist public policy.
因为我们有几个世纪以来的种族主义公共政策。
And even in the 20th century, blacks were prevented from buying homes in certain areas, and there were a lot of policies that helped whites build wealth at the same time they were preventing blacks from doing that.
即使在20世纪，黑人也被禁止在某些地区购买房屋，并且有很多政策在帮助白人积累财富的同时又阻止黑人这样做。
So it was-- it's a wealth gap that was fostered by racist policy, which we really haven't recovered from.
事实就是这样——这是种族主义政策造成的贫富差距，我们确实还没有从中恢复过来。
Because wealth takes time to build over generations.
因为财富需要几代人的时间积累。
Paul knew all of this before he started looking into wage garnishing.
保罗在开始调查扣押工资之前就知道这一切。
He knew this history, from Jim Crow laws all the way up through restrictive covenants in housing.
他了解这段历史，从种族隔离法一直到住房方面的限制性契约。
He knew the data.
他知道这些数据。
But it wasn't until Cori that he considered it the answer to his puzzle.
但直到科里才认为这是他的难题的答案。
Which is interesting.
这很有趣。
The wealth gap is such a basic old fact about America that it's become a saggy, meaningless phrase.
贫富差距是美国的一个基本事实，它已经成为一个下垂、毫无意义的短语。
"The widening wealth gap." "How to narrow the wealth gap."
“贫富差距不断扩大。” “如何缩小贫富差距”。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
And so this is one good illustration of that.
这是一个很好的例证。
So I'm standing on a street.
所以我站在街上。
Standing on a street in the middle of Jennings, not too far from the high school.
站在詹宁斯市中心的一条街上，离高中不远。
Paul found himself in a peculiar situation.
保罗发现自己处于一种特殊的境地。
He had a detailed spreadsheet, with addresses, listing everyone who hasn't paid their debts, how much they owed, and for what.
他有一份详细的电子表格，附有地址，列出了所有尚未偿还债务的人、他们欠了多少钱以及欠了什么。
Basically he had a map of the neighborhood he was standing in that included intimate details about people's financial lives.
基本上，他有一张他所在社区的地图，其中包括有关人们财务生活的详细信息。
About half the homes on this block have had a lawsuit against them.
该街区大约一半的房屋都对他们提起过诉讼。
On some blocks, it was every other house.
在一些街区，每隔一栋房子都是这样。
Sometimes there were a few in just one house.
有时只有一所房子里有几个人。
It was a social map of the neighborhood that was the opposite of the carefully curated status updates you usually see.
这是一个社区的社交地图，与您通常看到的精心策划的状态更新相反。
What Paul could see was something real and messy-- what was going on with people's finances.
保罗看到的是一些真实而混乱的东西——人们的财务状况。
And he wondered, if you live here, do you just know about this?
他想知道，如果你住在这里，你知道这件事吗？
Or do you actually need to see the map to picture it?
或者你真的需要看地图才能想象它吗？
There's a street-- there's a house at the end here.
有一条街——这里的尽头有一座房子。
How did you get my name?
你是怎么知道我的名字的？
Paul Kiel Well, it was court records.
保罗·基尔 嗯，这是法庭记录。
They are public.
他们是公开的。
Paul Kiel They are public, yeah.
保罗·基尔 他们是公开的，是的。
And--
还有——
This woman, Devorah, had been sued for money she owed the Metropolitan Sewer District.
这位名叫黛沃拉的妇女因欠大都会下水道区的钱而被起诉。
But she did not know that they'd sued her next door neighbor, too.
但她不知道他们也起诉了她的隔壁邻居。
Up the street and around the corner, Paul finds a block party going on.
保罗在街上的拐角处发现一场街区派对正在举行。
He sees a guy barbecuing in front of his house, and he knows this guy was sued, too.
他看到一个人在他家门前烧烤，他知道这个人也被起诉了。
But the guy doesn't feel like talking about it.
但那家伙不想谈论这件事。
The next few people did talk to Paul about it, and the disruption that led to them being sued-- a health incident, a family issue.
接下来的几个人确实与保罗谈论了这件事，以及导致他们被起诉的干扰——一个健康事件，一个家庭问题。
For Latanya Graves, it was when she lost her job.
对于拉塔尼娅·格雷夫斯来说，那是她失业的时候。
At the time, I was just trying to get back on my feet.
那时，我只是想重新站起来。
I was laid off from Western Union.
我被西联汇款解雇了。
And how they had no one to call who could help.
他们如何没有人可以打电话来提供帮助。
Well, I would say, did you know that there was essentially one lawsuit for every four people?
好吧，我想说，你知道吗，基本上每四个人就有一起诉讼？
And they would say, no, I didn't know that.
他们会说，不，我不知道。
Oh, on this block?
哦，在这个街区吗？
Paul Kiel On this street.
保罗·基尔 在这条街上。
Wow.
哇。
Chana Joffe-Walt This is a neighborhood where one in four people had been sued, and nobody knows that they're not the only one.
Chana Joffe-Walt 在这个街区，四分之一的人被起诉，但没有人知道他们并不是唯一的人。
Definitely nobody knew.
肯定没人知道。
[CHUCKLES] Nobody knew the numbers, and definitely, there was universal surprise at how prevalent it was.
[笑]没有人知道这些数字，当然，人们对它的普遍程度感到惊讶。
Paul stopped by a brick bungalow, Cori Winfield's house.
保罗在一栋砖砌平房前停下来，那是科里·温菲尔德的房子。
Only it's not her house anymore, because Cori lost the house to foreclosure after the car loan.
只是这不再是她的房子了，因为科里在汽车贷款后因丧失抵押品赎回权而失去了房子。
It is now Rosalyn Turner's house.
现在是罗莎琳·特纳的房子。
Rosalyn also has had her wages garnished.
罗莎琳的工资也被扣押。
She was working at Walmart, and suddenly a quarter of her paycheck started disappearing.
她在沃尔玛工作，突然四分之一的工资开始消失。
Yes.
是的。
After they started garnishing me, Walmart gave me a number to call.
他们开始扣押我后，沃尔玛给了我一个电话号码。
And I called them, and they wouldn't tell me much.
我给他们打电话，他们没有告诉我太多。
She had been sued by Midwest Acceptance, as well.
她也被中西部验收公司起诉。
It was the same company that Cori had been sued by.
科里被起诉的正是同一家公司。
Who used to live in the same house.
谁曾经住在同一所房子里。
So it was like, jeez.
所以就像是，天哪。
Rosalyn didn't know about Cori.
罗莎琳不知道科丽的事。
Cori didn't know about Rosalyn.
科里不知道罗莎琳的事。
Paul was giving an entire neighborhood a status update on itself.
保罗正在向整个社区通报自己的状态更新。
Not that he'd set out to do that, but there he was, letting people know where they stood, relative to one another, even sometimes within the same family.
并不是说他打算这样做，但他就在那里，让人们知道他们彼此之间的立场，甚至有时在同一个家庭中。
It happened twice where I was like, who is X?
这种事发生了两次，我当时就想，谁是X？
And they're like, oh, that's my daughter.
他们就像，哦，那是我的女儿。
I was like, do you remember them dealing with a lawsuit from so-and-so?
我当时想，你还记得他们处理过某某的诉讼吗？
No. I mean, I found that-- yeah, even in the same house, people don't know.
不，我的意思是，我发现——是的，即使在同一所房子里，人们也不知道。
Like here, in Dora Byrd's house.
就像这里，在多拉·伯德的家里。
Paul asks, who's Camille Lee?
保罗问，卡米尔·李是谁？
That's my granddaughter.
那是我的孙女。
What's Camille Lee got to do with-- what's going on with that?
卡米尔·李与什么有关——这是怎么回事？
Uh, sorry.
呃，抱歉。
Chana Joffe-Walt In this one family, Dora Byrd had been sued for debt, her daughter had been sued for debt-- now she was learning her granddaughter had been sued for debt.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 在这个家庭中，多拉·伯德 (Dora Byrd) 因债务被起诉，她的女儿因债务被起诉——现在她得知她的孙女因债务被起诉。
Dora Byrd would try to help her granddaughter, now that she knows, but it will be hard, because a third of Dora's savings was garnished, too.
多拉·伯德现在知道了，她会尽力帮助她的孙女，但这会很困难，因为多拉三分之一的积蓄也被扣押了。
On his last day in Jennings, Paul stopped by a brick house with three lawsuits.
在詹宁斯的最后一天，保罗带着三起诉讼去了一栋砖房。
Yeah, so I went and knocked on the door, and a woman answered the second time we tried.
是的，所以我去敲门，第二次尝试时，一个女人开门了。
We went around her backyard.
我们绕着她的后院转了一圈。
Then I learned that she is a councilwoman.
后来我才知道她是一名女议员。
She's a council member in Jennings, which was a surprise.
她是詹宁斯的市议会成员，这令人惊讶。
Although it made sense, given the fact that she seemed to be commanding various operations by cellphone on a Saturday.
虽然这是有道理的，因为她似乎在周六通过手机指挥各种行动。
Paul tells Councilwoman Jones about his data.
保罗向女议员琼斯讲述了他的数据。
She said, you know, you should talk to the mayor.
她说，你知道，你应该和市长谈谈。
And so she texted the mayor while I was talking to her.
所以当我和她说话时，她给市长发了短信。
The mayor called right back.
市长立即回电。
Miranda Jones Hey, Yolanda.
米兰达·琼斯 嘿，尤兰达。
Hey.
嘿。
I got a question for you.
我有个问题想问你。
So there's a reporter that knocked on my door.
于是有记者来敲我的门。
He's from the--
他来自——
The mayor said she'd be happy to meet Paul in her office.
市长说她很高兴在办公室见到保罗。
And then I drove right over to City Hall.
然后我就开车去了市政厅。
I thought we were going to have like a kind of broader, 30,000-foot-- sort of the broader issues, like, what is this doing to my community as mayor?
我以为我们会遇到更广泛的、30,000 英尺的问题，比如，这对我作为市长的社区有什么影响？
Like, that's the conversation that I thought we were going to have.
就像，这就是我认为我们将会进行的对话。
And what happened?
发生了什么？
Paul Kiel So we started that way, and then she just kind of casually threw in the conversation that "I've been sued by the sewerage district, too."
Paul Kiel 所以我们就这样开始了，然后她只是随意地加入了对话，“我也被污水处理区起诉了。”
I'm going to be honest with you.
我要对你说实话。
I was one of the ones that was sued, as well, falling behind because I didn't have-- you know, I lost my job.
我也是被起诉的人之一，因为我没有——你知道，我失去了工作。
And I tried not to-- I don't think I reacted in any way, because I try not to.
我试着不去——我想我没有做出任何反应，因为我努力不去这么做。
But yeah, I was surprised, and I was-- it's almost like unbelievable at this point.
但是，是的，我很惊讶，而且我——这在这一点上几乎令人难以置信。
And then at that point, I turned around and I wrote down the names that I saw, like on the name-- so we were in the city council chambers.
然后就在那时，我转过身来，写下了我看到的名字，就像名字上一样——所以我们在市议会会议厅。
It shows what all the names of all the city council members are.
它显示了所有市议会成员的所有名字。
So I wrote all their names down and I was like, OK, when I get home, I'm going to look at the database and see how many city council members had actually been sued.
所以我写下了他们所有的名字，然后我想，好吧，当我回到家时，我要查看数据库，看看有多少市议会成员实际上被起诉。
How many?
多少？
Paul Kiel So it was five of the eight city council members had been sued over a debt.
保罗·基尔 因此，八名市议会成员中有五名因债务而被起诉。
It's to the point where, yeah, it's unbelievable how common it is.
是的，它的普遍程度令人难以置信。
This should not be unbelievable by this point, right?
到目前为止，这应该不令人难以置信，对吧？
Because Paul knows the data, has walked the streets.
因为保罗知道数据，已经走过街道。
He's stared at the map.
他盯着地图。
But still, it feels unbelievable.
但仍然感觉难以置信。
To the mayor, too, the mayor who has detailed knowledge of this particular community, who has experienced this herself.
对于市长来说，也是如此，市长对这个特定的社区有详细的了解，她自己也经历过这一点。
When Paul showed her her own block on his laptop?
当保罗在他的笔记本电脑上向她展示她自己的区块时？
Wow.
哇。
See, that's my neighbor across the street.
看，那是我街对面的邻居。
[INAUDIBLE] is right--
[听不清] 是对的——
Every other house.
其他所有房子。
Paul Kiel Yeah.
保罗·基尔 是的。
It's funny--
很有趣——
They're just suing all of us.
他们只是起诉我们所有人。
Chana Joffe-Walt "They're Just Suing All of Us." That was the front-page headline of the St. Louis Post Dispatch .
Chana Joffe-Walt“他们只是在起诉我们所有人。”这是《圣路易斯邮报》的头版头条新闻。
Paul wrote a story for the paper about all this last month.
保罗上个月为报纸写了一篇关于这一切的故事。
So now, this thing that no one ever talks about, no one wants to talk about, that everyone is just keeping as their own private shame, was out.
所以现在，这件事没人谈论，没人愿意谈论，每个人都把它当作自己的耻辱，已经消失了。
What happens then?
然后会发生什么？
How does this unusual and sudden sort of status update change things?
这种不寻常且突然的状态更新如何改变事情？
It was kind of like-- it was sad, but then it was kind of like a relief.
有点像——很悲伤，但又有点像松了一口气。
Because I'm like, oh my goodness, you know?
因为我想，天哪，你知道吗？
To see that long list, it was just-- wow.
看到那长长的名单，真是——哇。
But you haven't talked to people about it?
但你还没有和人们谈论过这件事吗？
No. You know, it-- that's not like a common thing you just start talking about.
不，你知道，这不是你刚开始谈论的常见事情。
Hey, my wages are getting garnished.
哎呀，我的工资被扣了。
How about yours?
你的呢？
I heard this from a few people.
我从几个人那里听到了这个消息。
Now that they know their neighbors are in the same situation, they still don't want to talk about it.
现在他们知道邻居也有同样的情况，但他们仍然不想谈论这件事。
It's embarrassing.
真尴尬。
Mayor Henderson had her mayor's wages garnished just six months after she was elected.
亨德森市长当选后仅六个月就被扣发了市长工资。
A very awkward finance person had the unlucky job of telling the new mayor that she'd be seeing a deduction in her next paycheck.
一位非常尴尬的财务人员不幸地告诉新任市长，她的下一份薪水将被扣除。
And Mayor Henderson had some questions about what that meant, which she was too embarrassed to ask, for weeks.
亨德森市长几个星期以来一直对这意味着什么有一些疑问，但她不好意思问。
The mayor.
市长。
Not some disempowered nobody-- the mayor.
不是某个被剥夺权力的人——而是市长。
It wasn't until she was giving me a tour of City Hall that she decided to finally stop by the finance office again.
直到她带我参观市政厅时，她才决定再次去财务办公室。
All right.
好的。
She's going to interview-- I got to ask you a question.
她要去面试——我得问你一个问题。
My question is, on the MSD part, is it every pay period, or once a month, that 25% taken out of my pay?
我的问题是，就 MSD 而言，是每个工资周期还是每月一次从我的工资中扣除 25%？
That is-- Yolanda Henderson Do you remember?
那是—— Yolanda Henderson 你还记得吗？
I forgot to ask you.
我忘了问你。
Was it every pay period, or just once?
是每个发薪期都这样，还是只有一次？
Every-- Yolanda Henderson Every pay period.
每个—— Yolanda Henderson 每个发薪期。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Every pay period.
每个发薪期。
Yolanda Henderson See, if that's the case, that's not right.
Yolanda Henderson 瞧，如果是这样的话，那就不对了。
That's two weeks, every two weeks.
也就是两周一次，每两周一次。
That's $300 and some.
那是 300 美元等等。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's standard.
这是标准的。
It's standard.
这是标准的。
It's a percentage of the income after all deductions.
这是扣除所有费用后收入的百分比。
So it is standard.
所以这是标准的。
It is standard.
这是标准的。
Unsurprising.
不足为奇。
That was actually the most consistent reason people gave for why they don't talk about this.
这实际上是人们不谈论这个问题的最一致的原因。
It wasn't that surprising.
这并不奇怪。
They did find it surprising when they learned how many of their neighbors had been garnished.
当他们得知有多少邻居被扣押时，他们确实感到惊讶。
But then, just a few minutes later, it stopped feeling surprising.
但几分钟后，我就不再感到惊讶了。
They already knew everyone around them had very little to draw on.
他们已经知道周围的每个人都没有什么可以借鉴的。
It wasn't really a status update.
这并不是真正的状态更新。
It was just status quo.
这只是现状。
Chana Joffe-Walt is one of the producers of our program.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
You can read Paul Kiel's reporting about all this at ProPublica.org.
您可以在 ProPublica.org 上阅读 Paul Kiel 关于这一切的报道。
Act Four: 76-Year-Old Quarterback Throws Hail Mary Pass Ira Glass Act Four, 76-year-old Quarterback Throws Hail Mary Pass.
第四幕：76 岁的四分卫投掷万福玛丽通行证 Ira Glass 第四幕，76 岁的四分卫投掷万福玛丽通行证。
OK, everybody.
好的，大家。
To close out show right now, I have an actual status update, a real-life status update, on somebody who was on our show a few weeks ago that many of you have written to us asking about.
为了现在结束节目，我有一个实际的状态更新，一个现实生活中的状态更新，关于几周前参加我们节目的人，你们中的许多人写信给我们询问。
If you heard our show a few weeks ago, we had this 76-year-old man who wanted to ask this woman to marry him.
如果您几周前听过我们的节目，我们有一位 76 岁的男人想向这位女士求婚。
He'd been visiting her for years, flying across the country to see her.
他多年来一直去看望她，飞越全国来看她。
He would stay at her house, hang out with her as friends, though he always wanted to be more than friends.
他会住在她家里，像朋友一样和她一起出去玩，尽管他总是想不仅仅是朋友。
And he'd had a crush on this woman since he was the age of those girls you heard at the beginning of our program today, since high school.
从高中开始，他就迷恋上了这个女人，就像你今天节目开始时听到的那些女孩一样大。
This girl he was about to ask to marry him was very relevant back then.
他要向他求婚的这个女孩，在当时是非常有意义的。
She was very popular.
她很受欢迎。
She was one of, you might say, the queens in high school, right?
你可能会说，她是高中女王之一，对吗？
Do you know where you're going to do this?
你知道你要在哪里做这件事吗？
Do you know where you're going to ask the question?
你知道你要在哪里问这个问题吗？
Where is it going to be?
它会在哪里？
What can you say about that?
对此你能说什么？
At her home.
在她家。
Next week.
下周。
Ira Glass And right before he left to fly and ask her the big question, he changed his plan.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 就在他出发去问她这个大问题之前，他改变了计划。
He decided that instead of asking her to marry him, he would just tell her his feelings and ask her if she wanted to be in a real committed relationship with him.
他决定不向她求婚，而只是告诉她他的感受，并询问她是否愿意与他建立真正忠诚的关系。
And he did it.
他做到了。
And OK, I'm just going to cut to the chase.
好吧，我要切入正题了。
She turned him down.
她拒绝了他。
Turned him down flat.
断然拒绝了他。
No interest at all.
一点兴趣都没有。
She'd been married for 50 years.
她已经结婚50年了。
She didn't want it again, with him or anybody.
她不想再和他或任何人在一起。
Her life was full of friends.
她的生活充满了朋友。
Didn't need it.
不需要它。
That's what she said.
她就是这么说的。
Though, of course, that's basically the senior citizen way of saying, you know, it's not you, it's me.
当然，这基本上是老年人的说法，你知道，不是你，是我。
He says, right at the beginning of his visit, he got a sign of where her feelings were when he made the suggestion for the week together.
他说，就在他拜访之初，当他提出一起度过一周的建议时，他就感受到了她的感受。
I said, the one thing I would like to do is to shut down the evening, if you didn't mind, by just dancing together, closing the evening down with maybe just 15 minutes or so of dancing.
我说，我想做的一件事是，如果你不介意的话，我想做的一件事就是通过一起跳舞来结束这个夜晚，也许只用 15 分钟左右的舞蹈来结束这个夜晚。
She didn't agree to that.
她不同意这一点。
She said, well, I'm not certain about that.
她说，好吧，我对此并不确定。
That's something I'll have to think about.
这是我必须考虑的事情。
And of course, she didn't agree to that.
当然，她不同意这一点。
And I know why.
我知道为什么。
She didn't want any emotions to be involved, perhaps even her own, you know?
她不想卷入任何情感，甚至包括她自己的情感，你知道吗？
He was less sad about it than you might think, because he finally knew the truth, knew it was hopeless with her.
他对此并没有你想象的那么悲伤，因为他终于知道了真相，知道她已经没有希望了。
He could move on.
他可以继续前进。
And he's kind of excited to move on.
他对继续前进感到有点兴奋。
He says he knows now.
他说他现在知道了。
If you meet somebody who's truly right for you, it shouldn't take years for both of you to recognize it and feel it.
如果你遇到了真正适合你的人，那么你们俩不需要几年的时间就能认识到并感受到它。
And if you don't, then it's time to cut it and run.
如果你不这样做，那么就该砍掉它并逃跑了。
Life's too short.
生命太短了。
He's hoping his status is going to change one more time.
他希望自己的地位能够再次改变。
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Chana Joffe-Walt and Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robin Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
感谢 Ira Glass 嗯，我们今天的节目由 Chana Joffe-Walt 和 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Stephanie Foo、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robin Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 制作。
Our senior producer is Brian Reed.
我们的高级制片人是布莱恩·里德。
Our editor is Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Julie Snyder's our editorial consultant.
朱莉·斯奈德是我们的编辑顾问。
Our technical director is Matt Tierney.
我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。
Production help from Lilly Sullivan.
莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elyse Bergerson's our business operations manager.
Elyse Bergerson 是我们的业务运营经理。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Kimberly Henderson is our office coordinator.
Kimberly Henderson 是我们的办公室协调员。
Research help from Christopher Swetala.
克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉 (Christopher Swetala) 提供研究帮助。
Music help today from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
今天达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
Special thanks today to Annie Waldman, Tracy Webber, Jacob Goldstein, Ricardo Gutierrez, and Lila Margolis.
今天特别感谢安妮·沃尔德曼、特雷西·韦伯、雅各布·戈德斯坦、里卡多·古铁雷斯和莉拉·马戈利斯。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Our website, ThisAmericanLife.org.
我们的网站 ThisAmericanLife.org。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torrey Malatia, who looks into the bathroom mirror every single morning of every single day and says--
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚先生，他每天早上都会看着浴室的镜子说——
You're so pretty, like, I'm going throw you into the train tracks.
你太漂亮了，我要把你扔进铁轨里。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。