570: The Night In Question - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #570 | October 16, 2015 570: The Night In Question Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 570 集 | 2015 年 10 月 16 日 570：有问题的夜晚 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass In two weeks, it's going to be the 20th anniversary of the assassination of the Prime Minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin.
序言 Ira Glass 两周后，以色列总理伊扎克·拉宾 (Yitzhak Rabin) 遇刺 20 周年纪念日就将来临。
This was a shocking event in Israel-- basically, their Kennedy assassination.
这在以色列是一件令人震惊的事件——基本上就是肯尼迪遇刺事件。
Rabin had been in the middle of working through a peace deal with the Palestinians.
拉宾一直在努力与巴勒斯坦人达成和平协议。
You may remember a famous picture of him and Yasser Arafat outside the White House, with President Clinton kind of awkwardly nudging them both to shake hands.
你可能还记得他和亚西尔·阿拉法特在白宫外的一张著名照片，克林顿总统有点尴尬地催促他们握手。
Two brothers were convicted in the murder-- Israelis.
以色列人的两兄弟因谋杀罪被定罪。
Jews.
犹太人。
Religious Jews.
宗教犹太人。
The one who pulled the trigger is still in prison, but the other got out a few years ago.
扣动扳机的那个人仍在监狱里，但另一个人几年前就出狱了。
His name's Hagai.
他的名字叫哈盖。
Hagai and his brother are still unapologetic about what they did.
哈盖和他的兄弟仍然对他们的所作所为毫无歉意。
They killed the prime minister because they didn't like his peace deal.
他们杀死了总理，因为他们不喜欢他的和平协议。
"We wanted to do it," he's saying.
“我们想这么做，”他说。
"Didn't happen by accident."
“这不是偶然发生的。”
"We did it to save Jews, to stop this process that was killing Jews." Hagai talked to one of our producers, Nancy Updike, and to another journalist, Dan Ephron, who's also her husband.
“我们这样做是为了拯救犹太人，为了阻止这个杀害犹太人的过程。” Hagai 与我们的一位制片人 Nancy Updike 以及另一位记者 Dan Ephron（她的丈夫）进行了交谈。
He's the former Jerusalem bureau chief for Newsweek .
他是《新闻周刊》前耶路撒冷分社社长。
They have both reported in Israel for years.
他们多年来一直在以色列报道。
Dan and Nancy now join me in studio.
丹和南希现在和我一起去工作室。
Hi, guys.
嗨，大家好。
So, where was this interview?
那么，这次采访是在哪里呢？
Dan Ephron We visited him at his house, the one he grew up in.
丹·埃夫隆（Dan Ephron） 我们拜访了他的家，那是他长大的地方。
It's a small house on a quiet street.
这是一条安静街道上的一栋小房子。
He's back there living at home with his parents.
他回到家里和父母住在一起。
It's the same house where Hagai and his brother spent hours together discussing the murder, plotting it in their room up on the second floor.
正是在同一所房子里，哈盖和他的兄弟一起花了几个小时讨论谋杀案，并在二楼的房间里策划谋杀案。
And we got there and we asked him to give us a tour and we ended up around back, in the backyard.
我们到了那里，请他带我们参观一下，最后我们来到了后面的后院。
And Dan-- I call him Danny-- speaks Hebrew, so he was translating.
丹——我叫他丹尼——会说希伯来语，所以他正在翻译。
We're all talking quietly.
我们都在小声说话。
It's late at night.
已经是深夜了。
This is where he hid some of the ammunition that night, before the police came.
那天晚上警察到来之前，他就在这里藏了一些弹药。
So, the ammunition he's talking about-- Hagai and his brother had stockpiled weapons before the assassination.
所以，他所说的弹药——哈盖和他的兄弟在暗杀之前就储存了武器。
Hagai made some of the munitions himself.
哈盖自己制造了一些弹药。
He's a tinkerer.
他是个修补匠。
Wow.
哇。
Dan Ephron Yeah.
丹·艾弗隆 是的。
And he was completely open about it.
他对此完全开放。
He was kind of proud about it.
他对此感到有点自豪。
And he had given us this tour, and as he did, he said, "Look, I hid the weapons from the police over here in the chicken coop, in a bag."
他带领我们进行了这次参观，当他这样做的时候，他说，“看，我把武器藏在鸡舍里的一个袋子里，以躲避警察的袭击。”
"It was a bag.
“那是一个袋子。
I had built little homemade grenades."
我制作了小型自制手榴弹。”
"Part of the silencer that I was working on."
“我正在研究的消音器的一部分。”
How long does it take to make a grenade?
制造一颗手榴弹需要多长时间？
Ah.
啊。
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Dan Ephron "You have to think a lot before you make it."
[希伯来语] Dan Ephron “在做之前你必须想很多。”
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Dan Ephron "You can make one in an hour, but you have to plan it."
[希伯来语] Dan Ephron “你可以在一小时内制作一个，但你必须计划它。”
Hagai took us over to a little prefab shed in a corner of the backyard.
哈盖带我们来到后院一角的一个小预制棚屋。
It was full of tools and boxes of bolts and wing nuts and all that.
里面装满了工具、装满螺栓和蝶形螺母的盒子等等。
And this is the shed where he'd spent months experimenting with and perfecting a kind of bullet that was found in his brother's gun the night of the murder.
他在这个棚子里花了几个月的时间试验和完善一种子弹，这种子弹是在谋杀当晚在他兄弟的枪中发现的。
This is the exact bullet mold that you used?
这就是你用的子弹模具吗？
Ken.
肯.
Ira Glass OK, so "ken" means "yes" in Hebrew.
Ira Glass 好的，所以“ken”在希伯来语中的意思是“是”。
That's one of the few Hebrew words I remember from Hebrew school.
这是我在希伯来语学校记得的少数几个希伯来语单词之一。
Right, right.
对，对。
And he's showing us this bar of metal that can fit a bunch of bullets in it, and then a second bar fits on top of it and it kind of clamps on top.
他向我们展示了这根金属棒，里面可以装一堆子弹，然后第二根金属棒装在它上面，它就像夹在上面一样。
He used all this gear to drill into these bullets and drop a ball bearing inside.
他使用所有这些装备钻入这些子弹并将滚珠轴承放入其中。
And I asked Hagai, "What's the ball bearing for?" And he said, "Ah, that was our project.
我问 Hagai：“滚珠轴承是做什么用的？”他说：“啊，那是我们的项目。
That was our innovation."
这就是我们的创新。”
The ball bearing-- the bullet-- so the idea was, that this would penetrate a vest.
滚珠轴承——子弹——所以我们的想法是，它可以穿透背心。
A bulletpoof vest.
防弹背心。
Dan Ephron A bulletproof vest.
Dan Ephron 防弹背心。
And the way it does it is that the bullet itself would lodge in the vest, but the ball bearing would continue through it.
它的做法是，子弹本身会卡在背心中，但滚珠轴承会继续穿过它。
And it was-- it's hard enough and deadly enough to kill-- just the ball bearing, once it penetrated, to kill him.
它是——它足够坚硬，足以致命——只是滚珠轴承，一旦穿透，就会杀死他。
I mean, so-- I mean, did you-- did you make this mold in order to make the bullets for that purpose, to shoot Rabin?
我的意思是，所以——我的意思是，你——你制作这个模具是为了制造用于射杀拉宾的子弹吗？
"I think you could say yes.
“我想你可以说是的。
The answer is yes."
答案是肯定的。”
So, this was the exact equipment he used to modify the bullets to kill the Prime Minister, and he's happy to show it to us.
所以，这就是他用来修改子弹杀死总理的确切装备，他很高兴向我们展示它。
And because he and his brother both had this attitude-- they were both proud of what they'd done-- as a murder case, this assassination was open and shut.
因为他和他的兄弟都有这种态度——他们都为自己所做的事情感到自豪——作为一起谋杀案，这次暗杀是公开和封闭的。
The shooter, Hagai's brother, his name is Yigal Amir.
枪手是哈盖的弟弟，他的名字叫伊格尔·阿米尔。
He was grabbed right on the spot.
他当场就被抓住了。
The bullets matched his gun.
子弹与他的枪相匹配。
There were several witnesses within a few feet of the shooter when he pulled the trigger.
当枪手扣动扳机时，距离他几英尺的范围内有几名目击者。
There was an amateur film that captured key parts of the scene.
有一部业余电影捕捉到了这一场景的关键部分。
The killer confessed immediately, in detail.
凶手立即详细招供。
He reenacted the incident with police-- that's on video too.
他向警方重现了这一事件——这也被记录在视频中。
And he's never expressed remorse.
而且他从未表示过悔恨。
He's never recanted any part of his confession.
他从来没有否认过他的供述的任何部分。
OK, but-- I can feel the "but" that you're about to say.
好吧，但是——我能感觉到你要说的“但是”。
Right.
正确的。
There is a "but." So, in spite of all this, in spite of all the evidence, lots of people don't believe it's true.
有一个“但是”。因此，尽管如此，尽管有所有证据，很多人仍然不相信这是真的。
They don't believe that Yigal Amir and his brother killed Rabin.
他们不相信伊格尔·阿米尔和他的兄弟杀死了拉宾。
That's enough?
够了吗？
He says, "Yigal Amir did not murder Rabin." I said, "Who did?" He said the Shabak did.
他说：“伊格尔·阿米尔没有谋杀拉宾。”我说：“谁干的？”他说沙巴克做到了。
The Shabak is like the Israeli equivalent of the FBI, plus they have a bodyguard division.
Shabak 就像以色列的联邦调查局 (FBI)，此外他们还有一个保镖部门。
So it's sort of a combination of the FBI and the Secret Service.
所以它有点像联邦调查局和特勤局的结合。
So even though there's all this evidence that could not seem, like, more clear-- there's witnesses, there's video, there's a confession-- there are conspiracy theories?
因此，尽管所有这些证据看起来再清楚不过了——有目击者、有视频、有供词——但还是有阴谋论吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And they're popular.
而且它们很受欢迎。
These are just random people on the street in Jerusalem one night this past summer.
这些只是去年夏天的一个晚上耶路撒冷街上的随机人。
So he says that it was the Shabak that killed Rabin.
所以他说是沙巴克杀死了拉宾。
He knows that because the bullets were in the front and Yigal Amir had shot from behind.
他知道这一点，因为子弹是在前面，而伊格尔·阿米尔是从后面开枪的。
OK, so what she's saying is, "I'm absolutely not sure that Amir actually killed Rabin.
好吧，所以她想说的是，“我绝对不确定阿米尔真的杀了拉宾。
There were all kinds of machinations, all kinds of intrigue going on at the time, and maybe the state was involved."
当时有各种各样的阴谋、各种各样的阴谋，也许国家也参与其中。”
So, according to polls, fully a third of Israelis doubt that Yigal Amir pulled the trigger.
因此，根据民意调查，整整三分之一的以色列人怀疑伊格尔·阿米尔扣动了扳机。
They think there was a conspiracy or a major cover up.
他们认为其中存在阴谋或重大掩盖。
Among Israelis who identify as right wing, the doubters number at least 50%.
在自认为是右翼的以色列人中，怀疑者至少占 50%。
50?
50？
Five-oh?
五哦？
Nancy Updike 50, yeah.
南希·厄普代克 50，是的。
It's a big number.
这是一个很大的数字。
And I've been researching and reporting on the assassination for several years now.
几年来我一直在研究和报道这起暗杀事件。
And as I got deeper, I felt like I was in this weird loop where, on the one hand, all the documents I had read and all the people who were there that I spoke to-- police investigators, bodyguards, witnesses-- all that pointed to the fact that Yigal Amir killed the prime minister.
当我深入了解时，我觉得自己陷入了一个奇怪的循环，一方面，我读过的所有文件以及我与之交谈过的所有在场的人——警察调查员、保镖、证人——所有这些都指向伊格尔·阿米尔杀害了总理的事实。
And then alongside that, sometimes in interviews or conversations with Israelis, I'd get this look like, "You really believe that?" And I just wanted to understand why.
除此之外，有时在与以色列人的采访或对话中，我会得到这样的表情：“你真的相信这一点吗？”我只是想了解为什么。
Why are the conspiracy theories plausible to so much of the country?
为什么阴谋论对这个国家如此多的人来说是可信的？
And the fact that this assassination is seen so differently by different people in Israel has real implications for politics there today, right now.
事实上，以色列不同的人对这次暗杀的看法如此不同，这一事实对当今那里的政治产生了真正的影响。
Well, from WBEZ it's This American Life.
嗯，来自 WBEZ 的节目是《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
We hear so much about Israel here in our country, and I should say, over the months that we have worked on today's program, it has made me understand things about Israel that I never understood before.
我们在我们的国家听到了很多关于以色列的事情，我应该说，在我们制作今天的节目的几个月里，它让我了解了一些我以前从未了解过的关于以色列的事情。
Rabin's death is a very helpful prism to understand Israel and Israelis today-- even the news these last few weeks, this new round of violence.
拉宾之死是了解当今以色列和以色列人的一个非常有帮助的棱镜——甚至是最近几周的新闻，新一轮的暴力事件。
Rabin was assassinated in the middle of a peace deal that the United States had thrown all of its weight behind.
拉宾在美国全力支持的一项和平协议中被暗杀。
Every president since then has tried and failed to broker peace.
此后的每一位总统都曾尝试斡旋和平，但均以失败告终。
Today on our program, we're telling the story of what happened that night that Rabin was killed and we're telling the story of how Israelis see that moment today and what that tells us about Israel, Israeli politics, and the chances for peace.
今天在我们的节目中，我们将讲述拉宾被杀那天晚上发生的事情，我们将讲述以色列人如何看待今天的那一刻，以及它告诉我们关于以色列、以色列政治以及和平机会的故事。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
And with that, I hand things over to Nancy and Dan.
说完，我把事情交给了南希和丹。
Here's what happened the night of the assassination.
这是刺杀当晚发生的事情。
Rabin was speaking at a political rally, and I actually attended that rally.
拉宾在一次政治集会上发表讲话，我实际上参加了那次集会。
I was a young reporter covering the event.
我是一名报道这一事件的年轻记者。
Later, I covered the murder trial.
后来我报道了谋杀案的审判。
And the rally was huge-- there were speeches and songs.
集会规模很大——有演讲，有歌曲。
More than 100,000 people showed up.
超过10万人到场。
They filled the main plaza in Tel Aviv and packed the side streets.
他们挤满了特拉维夫的主广场和小巷。
Most of them were left wing or center left, like Rabin.
他们中的大多数都是左翼或中左翼，就像拉宾一样。
He was the head of the Labor Party.
他是工党领袖。
So the slogan of the rally was, "Yes to peace, no to violence." And turnout was important, because the point of the rally had been to gauge how much support Rabin had for the peace deals he was pursuing with the Palestinians-- they're called the Oslo Accords.
所以集会的口号是“赞成和平，反对暴力”。投票率很重要，因为集会的目的是衡量拉宾对他与巴勒斯坦人追求的和平协议有多少支持——这些协议被称为《奥斯陆协议》。
And here's what Oslo called for-- for Israel to gradually withdraw from parts of the West Bank and Gaza so that Palestinians could govern themselves.
这就是奥斯陆所呼吁的——以色列逐步从约旦河西岸和加沙部分地区撤军，以便巴勒斯坦人能够自治。
And a lot of right-wing Israelis saw Oslo as a terrible thing, as a security threat, and, because it involved giving back land God promised to the Jews, a betrayal of Judaism.
许多右翼以色列人认为奥斯陆是一件可怕的事情，是一种安全威胁，而且因为它涉及归还上帝向犹太人许诺的土地，所以是对犹太教的背叛。
They'd been protesting against Oslo and against the Rabin government for months.
几个月来，他们一直在抗议奥斯陆和拉宾政府。
There was even a small right-wing counterdemonstration that night held near the rally.
当晚集会附近甚至还举行了小型右翼反示威活动。
One of the people at the counterdemo-- and this is in a story I wrote that night-- one of them held up a sign that said, "A rope for the traitors."
反示威中的一个人——这是我那天晚上写的一个故事——其中一个人举着一块牌子，上面写着“给叛徒的一根绳子”。
I've read through dozens of police reports filed on the night of the murder.
我已经阅读了谋杀当晚提交的数十份警方报告。
One that caught my eye was written by Chief Superintendent Moti Naftali.
引起我注意的一篇是首席警司莫蒂·纳夫塔利 (Moti Naftali) 写的。
He helped draw up the security plan for the rally, along with the Israeli equivalent of the FBI, the Shabak.
他与以色列相当于联邦调查局的沙巴克一起帮助制定了集会的安全计划。
Here were the Shabak.
这是沙巴克。
Nancy Updike Over here on the left?
南希·厄普代克 在左边吗？
A few months ago, we went with Moti up onto the stage where Rabin stood.
几个月前，我们和莫蒂一起走上拉宾站立的舞台。
It looks out over the plaza where the rally was held.
它俯瞰着举行集会的广场。
Moti was also on stage the night of the assassination.
暗杀当晚，莫蒂也在舞台上。
There was a police command center off to one side.
一侧有一个警察指挥中心。
He's pointing out where that was, where other people were.
他指出那是在哪里，其他人在哪里。
Moti is a pipe smoker, the only one I've ever met in Israel.
莫蒂是个烟斗客，是我在以色列见过的唯一一个烟斗客。
He also speaks German-- he'll throw in a word of that sometimes.
他还会说德语——有时他会插一句。
And today is the first time he's come up here since that night 20 years ago.
自从二十年前的那个晚上之后，今天是他第一次来到这里。
He's not a sentimental man.
他不是一个感性的人。
You know, it's like when I go into my high school.
你知道，这就像我上高中时一样。
I look ahead.
我向前看。
I look forward.
我期待着。
The mission for law enforcement that evening of the rally was to maintain order and, of course, to protect the prime minister.
集会当晚执法部门的任务是维持秩序，当然还有保护总理。
Moti remembers preparing for just one scenario.
莫蒂记得只准备了一种情况。
That the Palestinians, they will commit a terror operation.
巴勒斯坦人认为，他们将实施恐怖行动。
Nobody in all the work before-- nobody talked about an Israeli or a Jewish assassin.
之前的所有工作中没有人谈论以色列或犹太刺客。
When it was finished, from here, I called my wife and I said, [GERMAN] "Thank God, it's finished."
当它完成时，我从这里打电话给我的妻子，我说，[德语]“感谢上帝，它完成了。”
"Thank God," in German.
德语“感谢上帝”。
Yeah.
是的。
Moti Naftali [HEBREW] "Nothing happened."
Moti Naftali [希伯来语]“什么也没发生。”
It went fine.
一切顺利。
Nancy Updike The rally went fine.
南希·厄普代克 集会进行得很顺利。
It ended, Rabin left the stage, and then after Moti called his wife--
比赛结束，拉宾离开了舞台，然后在莫蒂给他的妻子打电话后——
I heard people running and a noise.
我听到人们奔跑的声音和噪音。
And I run with them as well.
我也和他们一起跑步。
No, no. Nancy Updike What Moti heard but didn't see was captured on amateur video.
不，不。南希·厄普代克 莫蒂听到但没有看到的事情被业余视频捕捉到了。
There's no TV news footage of the assassination because the rally was over-- the news was over.
没有关于暗杀事件的电视新闻镜头，因为集会结束了——新闻结束了。
This moment when the shooting happened was a nothing moment.
枪击事件发生的这一刻是无足轻重的时刻。
Just the prime minister, Rabin, walking down the stairs behind the stage and back to his car.
只有总理拉宾走下舞台后面的楼梯，回到他的车上。
In the amateur footage-- we found this copy on YouTube-- we see Rabin's car off to the side with his driver, Menachem Damti, standing next to it.
在业余镜头中（我们在 YouTube 上找到了这个副本），我们看到拉宾的车停在一边，他的司机梅纳赫姆·达姆蒂（Menachem Damti）站在旁边。
There's a small crowd at the bottom of the stairs as he comes down.
当他走下来时，楼梯底部有一小群人。
People are applauding.
人们在鼓掌。
They're mostly just a bunch of dark, human-sized shapes.
它们大多只是一堆黑色的、人体大小的形状。
Rabin is pretty easy to spot because he's in the middle and his glasses are glinting.
拉宾很容易被发现，因为他位于中间，而且他的眼镜闪闪发光。
And then one of the shapes who's been sitting off to the side stands up, walks through a few people till he's just behind Rabin, lifts his right arm, and there are flashes and the sound of three gunshots.
然后，坐在一边的一个人影站了起来，穿过几个人，直到他就在拉宾身后，举起右臂，然后闪光和三声枪响。
The camera drops, seemingly in shock, and then recovers.
相机掉落，似乎受到了惊吓，然后又恢复了。
All of this has happened only a few feet from the car that Rabin was about to get into.
所有这一切都发生在距离拉宾即将上车的地方只有几英尺的地方。
And we see Rabin's driver bend over Rabin and then jump into the driver's seat.
我们看到拉宾的司机弯下腰，然后跳进驾驶座。
The film ends there.
影片到此结束。
Rabin, his bodyguard, and the driver speed off to the hospital.
拉宾、他的保镖和司机快速前往医院。
The assassin, Yigal Amir-- the brother of Hagai, who you heard from earlier-- is tackled and taken to police headquarters to be interrogated by Moti Naftali.
刺客伊格尔·阿米尔（Yigal Amir）——你之前听说过的哈盖（Hagai）的兄弟——被抓住并带到警察总部接受莫蒂·纳夫塔利（Moti Naftali）的审问。
Moti was the first person to interrogate Yigal Amir in the hours after the assassination.
莫蒂是暗杀事件发生后数小时内第一个审问伊格尔·阿米尔的人。
This was a few blocks away at the Tel Aviv police headquarters.
这是几个街区外的特拉维夫警察总部。
He was in [HEBREW], we say in Hebrew.
他在[希伯来语]，我们用希伯来语说。
How you say in English?
你用英语怎么说？
Euphoria.
欣快感。
Moti Naftali Euphoria.
莫蒂·纳夫塔利欣快感。
Because he had a mission and he did it.
因为他有使命，而且他也做到了。
There's video of Moti interrogating Amir.
有莫蒂审问阿米尔的视频。
The sound quality is terrible in parts of the tape, but it's mesmerizing to watch.
磁带的某些部分音质很糟糕，但观看起来却很迷人。
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Moti Naftali [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[希伯来语] Moti Naftali [希伯来语]
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Dan Ephron Amir talks in small bites and he repeats himself, because Moti, sitting across the table from him, is writing down every word by hand.
[说希伯来语] 丹·埃夫隆·阿米尔 (Dan Ephron Amir) 说话时小声说话，并重复自己的话，因为坐在他对面的莫蒂 (Moti) 正在手写每个单词。
At one point, Amir stops what he's saying to make sure Moti is getting everything down.
有一次，阿米尔停下了自己的话，以确保莫蒂把一切都记下来。
He says, "Did you write that down?"
他说：“你写下来了吗？”
At the start of the interrogation, it's not clear yet that Rabin is dead.
在审讯开始时，尚不清楚拉宾是否已经死亡。
Moti is just focused on Amir.
莫蒂的注意力只集中在阿米尔身上。
Who is this guy?
这家伙是谁？
Moti, like the rest of the police in the Shabak, is stunned by the fact that Amir is Jewish, an Israeli, not Palestinian.
莫蒂和沙巴克的其他警察一样，对阿米尔是犹太人、以色列人而不是巴勒斯坦人这一事实感到震惊。
He finds out he's 25 years old.
他发现自己已经25岁了。
He's a law student, a devout Jew, and Amir, to him, is just baffling.
他是一名法律系学生，一名虔诚的犹太人，而阿米尔对他来说只是令人困惑。
I see a guy, normal guy from a good family, student, and a murderer.
我看到一个人，一个来自好家庭的普通人，一个学生，一个杀人犯。
I, I'm-- I dealed with murderer.
我，我——我和凶手打过交道。
They were-- they were criminal.
他们是——他们是罪犯。
He wasn't criminal.
他没有犯罪。
It's the first time that I dealed with the ideological criminal.
这是我第一次与思想犯罪分子打交道。
I say he's a wet dream of every woman, that she will have such a guy for her daughter.
我说他是每个女人的梦遗，她的女儿会拥有这样一个男人。
Sort of the men every woman wants for her son-in-law.
每个女人都希望自己的女婿是这样的男人。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
He was educated, polite, good manners-- a murderer.
他受过教育，有礼貌，有礼貌——是一个杀人犯。
Amir in the video is calm.
视频中的阿米尔很平静。
He's measured.
他是有测量的。
There's no rambly, incoherent manifesto.
没有漫无目的、语无伦次的宣言。
He's not even raising his voice.
他甚至没有提高声音。
He seems sane.
他看起来很理智。
He's just very smug.
他只是非常自鸣得意。
He says to Moti at one point, "Your questions are an insult to my intelligence."
他有一次对莫蒂说：“你的问题是对我智商的侮辱。”
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Yigal Amir [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[希伯来语] Yigal Amir [希伯来语]
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Dan Ephron But Amir is happy to tell him everything.
[说希伯来语] 丹·艾弗伦 但阿米尔很乐意告诉他一切。
He'd been developing the idea of killing Rabin for two years.
两年来他一直想杀死拉宾。
He used his own gun, a 9-millimeter Beretta.
他使用了自己的枪，一把 9 毫米伯莱塔手枪。
He'd loaded it with bullets from a fresh box before leaving the house, then he took bus number 247 from his home in Herzliya to the rally.
离开家之前，他从一个新盒子里装满了子弹，然后从荷兹利亚的家乘坐 247 路公交车前往集会地点。
Amir said he'd read the Oslo Accords-- the complete version, not the summary that was in the newspapers-- and he felt it was his obligation to stop Rabin from going ahead with Oslo, his religious duty under Jewish laws known as "din rodef" and "din moser." He said he had to protect the land of Israel.
阿米尔说，他读过《奥斯陆协议》——完整版本，而不是报纸上的摘要——他觉得他有义务阻止拉宾继续推进奥斯陆协议，这是他根据被称为“din rodef”和“din moser”的犹太法律承担的宗教义务。他说他必须保护以色列的土地。
At the rally, Amir told himself that if God wanted him to kill Rabin, he would give him an opportunity to do it, and the opportunity came.
在集会上，阿米尔告诉自己，如果上帝要他杀死拉宾，他就会给他一个机会，机会就来了。
Moti-- you see this in the video-- he's losing patience.
莫蒂——你在视频中看到这一点——他正在失去耐心。
But he wants a full confession, so he remains polite.
但他想要一个完整的坦白，所以他仍然保持礼貌。
One of my police came in and brought me a cup of tea in a kowc, white kowc.
我的一位警察进来了，用白色的 kowc 咖啡杯给我端来了一杯茶。
You know, this--
你知道，这——
Styrofoam cup.
聚苯乙烯泡沫塑料杯。
Moti Naftali Yeah.
莫蒂·纳夫塔利 是的。
And I told to him, "Would you also like a cup of tea?" He said yes and I told him, "Bring another one, please," and he brought him the cup of tea.
我对他说：“你也想喝杯茶吗？”他说是的，我告诉他，“请再拿一份，”然后他给他递了一杯茶。
And he says, "Don't you have any cookies?" And I told him, "Oh, you are-- you are pushing your luck."
他说：“你们没有饼干吗？”我告诉他，“哦，你是——你在碰运气。”
I remember his reaction when I told him-- when I accused him.
我记得当我告诉他时——当我指责他时他的反应。
And I tell him, "I, me, Moti Naftali, accuse you that you shot the prime minister and you caused his death." And he was shocked to hear it.
我告诉他，“我，我，莫蒂·纳夫塔利，指控你枪杀了总理并造成了他的死亡。”他听了很震惊。
He said, "What?
他说：“什么？
Did he die?
他死了吗？
Wow!" And he jumped, like your team make a goal.
哇！”他跳了起来，就像你的球队进球一样。
Like your team scored a goal in a soccer game?
就像您的球队在足球比赛中进球一样？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
And this moment, you want to come and punch him in the face, but you must be correct.
而这一刻，你想过来打他的脸，但你必须是对的。
You must sit down.
你必须坐下来。
Sit down.
坐下。
"Would you like a cup of tea?" "Let's make l'chaim," he said.
“你想喝杯茶吗？” “让我们做l'chaim，”他说。
"Let's make a toast." Moti Naftali Let's make a toast.
“我们干杯吧。”莫蒂·纳夫塔利 让我们干杯吧。
Yeah.
是的。
"L'chaim" means "To life!" Moti Naftali Yeah.
“L'chaim”的意思是“生命！”莫蒂·纳夫塔利 是的。
To make a toast to life.
为生命干杯。
Moti Naftali Yeah, to life.
莫蒂·纳夫塔利 是的，充满活力。
To life that he took.
为了他所夺取的生命。
[CROWD CHANTING] Reporter [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[人群高呼]记者[说希伯来语]
This is the crowd outside the hospital where Rabin was taken after he was shot.
这是拉宾中枪后被送往医院外的人群。
It's from a radio report.
这是来自广播电台的报道。
I had left the rally before the shooting, along with other journalists, and I got a beeper message-- this was the 90s, a lot of beepers-- saying, "Shot fired near Rabin." So I turned around and ran.
枪击事件发生前，我和其他记者一起离开了集会，我收到了一条寻呼机消息——那是 90 年代，有很多寻呼机——上面写着：“拉宾附近开枪了。”于是我转身就跑。
I really ran back to the square-- and then from the square to the hospital nearby.
我真的跑回广场——然后从广场跑到附近的医院。
I saw this crowd and I heard these shouts.
我看到了这群人，也听到了这些叫喊声。
The crowd is furious.
人群愤怒了。
You can hear it.
你可以听到它。
They're Rabin supporters and what they're chanting is "Bibi rotzeach," meaning "Bibi is a murderer."
他们是拉宾的支持者，他们高喊的是“Bibi rotzeeach”，意思是“Bibi 是杀人犯”。
Bibi rotzeach!
比比罗泽奇！
Dan Ephron Bibi-- and maybe you know this-- is the nickname for Benjamin Netanyahu.
丹·埃夫隆·比比（Dan Ephron Bibi）——也许你知道这一点——是本杰明·内塔尼亚胡（Benjamin Netanyahu）的昵称。
He's the Prime Minister of Israel today.
他今天是以色列总理。
At the time, he headed the right-wing opposition, the side opposed to Rabin and to the Oslo deal.
当时，他领导右翼反对派，反对拉宾和奥斯陆协议。
Israeli politics is always fierce.
以色列的政治总是激烈的。
I once saw on TV a lawmaker in the Israeli parliament throw a glass of water into another parliament member's face.
我曾经在电视上看到以色列议会的一名议员将一杯水泼到另一名议员的脸上。
And in the months before the assassination, the rhetoric against Rabin had been relentless.
在刺杀事件发生前的几个月里，针对拉宾的言论一直无情。
There were posters with his face in the crosshairs of a gun.
海报上有他的脸被枪瞄准的情况。
There were posters of him dressed as Yasser Arafat, the leader of the PLO, wearing a keffiyeh on his head.
海报上他打扮成巴解组织领导人亚西尔·阿拉法特，头上戴着头巾。
A poster of him dressed as a Nazi SS officer.
他打扮成纳粹党卫军军官的海报。
People chanted "murderer" and "traitor" at rallies and outside Rabin's apartment in Tel Aviv.
人们在集会上和特拉维夫的拉宾公寓外高呼“凶手”和“叛徒”。
People chanted "Death to Rabin." Palestinian groups who opposed the Oslo accords had killed dozens of Israelis in suicide attacks since the start of the peace process and many Israelis blamed Rabin for those deaths.
人们高呼“拉宾去死”。自和平进程开始以来，反对奥斯陆协议的巴勒斯坦组织已在自杀式袭击中杀害了数十名以色列人，许多以色列人将这些死亡归咎于拉宾。
It was pure rage.
这纯粹是愤怒。
The right was enraged at Oslo and at Rabin.
右翼对奥斯陆和拉宾感到愤怒。
But the night of the assassination, it was the left that became enraged.
但刺杀当晚，愤怒的是左派。
The feeling was, one man pulled the trigger, but a much larger group bore the blame for stoking hatred and violence against Rabin.
感觉是，一个人扣动了扳机，但一个更大的群体却要为煽动针对拉宾的仇恨和暴力承担责任。
A left-wing slogan would emerge-- "We will not forgive and we will not forget."
左翼口号将会出现——“我们不会宽恕，我们也不会忘记”。
When Rabin's chief of staff comes out of the hospital to make the announcement that the prime minister is dead, it takes him more than a minute of yelling at people to keep quiet before he can make himself heard.
当拉宾的幕僚长从医院出来宣布总理去世的消息时，他花了一分多钟的时间对人们大喊大叫才让人们保持安静，然后才让别人听到他的声音。
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Israeli Man [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[说希伯来语] 以色列男子 [说希伯来语]
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Israeli Man [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[说希伯来语] 以色列男子 [说希伯来语]
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Dan Ephron By now, the country's chief pathologist, Professor Yehuda Hiss, heads to the hospital to perform the autopsy.
[希伯来语] Dan Ephron 目前，该国首席病理学家 Yehuda Hiss 教授已前往医院进行尸检。
Look, I was raised on the investigation into the death of President Kennedy.
看，我是在对肯尼迪总统之死的调查中长大的。
"Into the death of President Kennedy." Hiss did some of his medical training in the United States at Case Western Reserve in the years after the Kennedy assassination, and he says the autopsy on Kennedy was discussed a lot-- mainly as a cautionary tale, as a lesson on what not to do when performing a postmortem.
“肯尼迪总统去世。”肯尼迪遇刺后的几年里，希斯在美国凯斯西储大学接受了一些医学培训，他说肯尼迪的尸检引起了很多讨论——主要是作为一个警示故事，作为在进行尸检时不该做的事情的一个教训。
The autopsy became one more thing that stoked the conspiracy theories.
尸检成为引发阴谋论的另一件事。
So I promised myself that it would never happen in Israel.
所以我向自己保证，这种事永远不会发生在以色列。
That if there is some high-profile case I would be called to perform an autopsy, I will do the most accurate thing.
如果有一些引人注目的案件，我会被要求进行尸检，我会做最准确的事情。
And I tried to do it in the prime minister's case and said I don't want, you know, the same claims that the autopsy was not accurate, that there were no photographs, and so on.
我试图在总理的案件中这样做，并说我不想，你知道，同样的说法，尸检不准确，没有照片，等等。
And they tried to do, you know, everything-- you know, regular things.
他们试图做所有事情——你知道，常规的事情。
To act regular.
行事有规律。
"Regular" meant Hiss insisted on having both his assistants with him during the Rabin autopsy.
“常规”意味着希斯坚持在拉宾尸检期间让他的两名助手陪同。
One of them was a photographer.
其中一位是摄影师。
It also meant that Hiss described aloud every step he took, dictating it into a tape recorder.
这也意味着希斯会大声描述他采取的每一步，并将其口述到录音机中。
His assistant transcribed the notes later that morning.
当天早上晚些时候，他的助手抄写了这些笔记。
Hiss found two bullets in Rabin, one in the lung and the other in the chest, and no exit wounds.
希斯在拉宾身上发现了两颗子弹，一颗在肺部，另一颗在胸部，没有任何出口伤口。
The third bullet fired by Amir went through the arm of a bodyguard.
阿米尔射出的第三颗子弹穿过了一名保镖的手臂。
There was nothing mysterious, you know?
没有什么神秘的，你知道吗？
There's nothing complicated.
没什么复杂的。
The bullets that Hiss found inside Rabin were standard hollow points, not the ones Hagai had modified in his shed with the ball bearings after all.
希斯在拉宾体内发现的子弹是标准的空心子弹，而不是哈盖在他的棚子里用滚珠轴承改装的子弹。
Those ended up at the bottom of his brother's magazine.
这些最终出现在他兄弟的杂志的底部。
Do the conspiracy theorists contact you?
阴谋论者会联系你吗？
Do they ever try to--
他们有没有尝试过——
Yes.
是的。
They call me and, "Do you know that we know that--" I say, "I have nothing to add." It's crazy.
他们打电话给我，“你知道吗，我们知道——”我说，“我没有什么可补充的。”太疯狂了。
It's amazing what is happening.
正在发生的事情真是令人惊奇。
The Israeli believe that there was some kind of conspiracy regarding his death.
以色列人相信他的死有某种阴谋。
We are asking the questions-- very, very simple questions.
我们正在问问题——非常非常简单的问题。
This is Hillel Weiss.
这是希勒尔·维斯。
He's a political columnist and one of the early adopters and proselytizers of the conspiracy theories-- also a literature professor emeritus.
他是一位政治专栏作家，也是阴谋论的早期采用者和传播者之一，也是一位荣誉文学教授。
He's in his 70s, he's got a white beard, very jolly.
他70多岁了，留着白胡子，非常开朗。
In the Rabin era, he was on TV a lot, and he's cheerful about why.
在拉宾时代，他经常出现在电视上，他对此感到很高兴。
When the television want to see a crazy one from the right wing, they call Hillel Weiss.
当电视台想要观看右翼的疯狂表演时，他们会打电话给希勒尔·韦斯（Hillel Weiss）。
You.
你。
Hillel Weiss Yes.
希勒尔·韦斯 是的。
And I supply them the-- the goods.
我向他们提供货物。
He lives in the West Bank, in a settlement he helped found nearly 40 years ago.
他住在约旦河西岸，这是他在近 40 年前帮助建立的一个定居点。
It's called Elkana.
它的名字叫艾尔卡纳。
He also helped found something else-- a group that calls itself The Public Committee for the Reinvestigation of the Rabin Murder.
他还帮助成立了其他组织——一个自称为“拉宾谋杀案再调查公共委员会”的组织。
Well, they think that Rabin himself and his party and all the people that were in the inside circle, they wanted to turn public opinion.
那么，他们认为拉宾本人和他的政党以及所有内部圈子的人，他们想要扭转舆论。
Therefore, they make this fake event to defame the right wing.
因此，他们制造了这个假事件来诽谤右翼。
This is the core of Hillel's theory.
这是希勒尔理论的核心。
Rabin himself orchestrated what was supposed to be an attempt on his own life by the right.
拉宾本人精心策划了右派对自己生命的一次企图。
It was supposed to be a thwarted attempt.
这本来应该是一次挫败的尝试。
The event would create sympathy for Rabin and for Oslo and boost his approval ratings, and it would make the right look bad.
这次活动将为拉宾和奥斯陆赢得同情，并提高他的支持率，这会让右翼看起来很糟糕。
In the fake assassination, as Hillel lays it out, Yigal Amir is either a collaborator or a patsy, and what the country saw on video was Amir firing blanks, not real bullets.
正如希勒尔所说，在假暗杀事件中，伊格尔·阿米尔要么是合作者，要么是替罪羊，全国人民在视频中看到的是阿米尔发射空弹，而不是真正的子弹。
Rabin then pretended to fall and was helped into the car and driven away.
拉宾随后假装摔倒，被人搀扶上车并开走。
But then in the car, somehow Rabin dies anyway.
但在车里，拉宾还是死了。
And here, the theories get hazy.
在这里，理论变得模糊。
It's not clear what happened in the car, but whatever happened, it wasn't part of the plan.
目前还不清楚车里发生了什么，但无论发生什么，这都不属于计划的一部分。
Inside the car, that's when someone-- or some "they"-- takes charge.
在车内，这就是某人（或某些“他们”）负责的时候。
You ask me who are "they?" And you ask me if "they" are Shabak.
你问我“他们”是谁？你问我“他们”是不是沙巴克。
Shabak, again, Israel's FBI.
沙巴克，又是以色列联邦调查局。
Hillel Weiss I cannot give any precise answer.
Hillel Weiss 我无法给出任何准确的答案。
The major claim is that Rabin died from a shot to the chest, and not from his back.
主要的说法是拉宾死于胸部中弹，而不是背部中弹。
Hillel has some thoughts about what might have led to that shot.
希勒尔对于导致那次枪击事件的原因有一些想法。
Maybe there was a conspiracy within the conspiracy, or maybe Rabin just had a stroke in the car.
或许阴谋中还有阴谋，又或许拉宾只是在车里中风了。
Maybe it was as simple as that.
也许事情就是这么简单。
Because even a stroke, if that's what happened, would have sabotaged the whole story the left was trying to sell.
因为，如果真的发生了这种情况，即使是中风，也会破坏左派试图推销的整个故事。
With a stroke, the left would get none of the political advantages of a thwarted assassination.
一旦发生中风，左派就不会获得挫败的暗杀的任何政治优势。
Just a guy in a hospital bed who might not even be able to talk.
只是一个躺在医院病床上的人，甚至可能无法说话。
The only way to salvage the story at that point would be to really kill Rabin-- to shoot him in the chest.
那时挽救这个故事的唯一方法就是真正杀死拉宾——朝他的胸部开枪。
They have no choice, because it destroys all the story.
他们别无选择，因为这会毁掉所有的故事。
It can be a possibility.
这可能是一种可能性。
Dan Ephron But one possibility-- or a possibility that might be the one that you believe in-- is that Rabin staged his own assassination--
丹·埃夫隆但是一种可能性——或者你可能相信的一种可能性——是拉宾策划了他自己的暗杀——
Yes, I'm sure.
是的，我确定。
Dan Ephron In order to improve his popularity and the popularity of the peace process.
丹·艾弗隆为了提高自己的声望以及和平进程的声望。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Dan Ephron And then got into the car on his own.
Dan Ephron 然后自己上了车。
On his own feet.
靠他自己的脚。
Dan Ephron And then maybe in the car, he had a stroke, you're saying?
Dan Ephron：然后也许在车里，他中风了，你是说？
It can be.
可以的。
It can be.
可以的。
It can be that he had a stroke.
他可能中风了。
The simple idea is that someone killed him.
简单的想法是有人杀了他。
This was the push and pull of the conversation.
这就是谈话的推力和拉力。
Some parts of his theory Hillel would deliver in the most emphatic tone you can imagine.
希勒尔理论的某些部分会以你能想象到的最强调的语气来表达。
About other parts, he would say, "Maybe.
对于其他部分，他会说：“也许吧。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm just asking questions." It's a prerogative of conspiracy theories not to have to answer questions, but just to raise them and keep raising them.
我只是问问题。”阴谋论的特权是不必回答问题，而只需提出并不断提出问题。
But what gives the theories traction-- what makes a lot of people ready to believe them-- is the way Hillel and the other conspiracists connect their story to some real loose ends about the murder that have never been resolved.
但这些理论的吸引力——让很多人愿意相信它们——是希勒尔和其他阴谋论者将他们的故事与一些从未解决的谋杀案的真正未解之谜联系起来的方式。
Details everyone in the country knows.
详细情况全国人人都知道。
Of course, loose ends happen in murder cases.
当然，谋杀案中也会出现悬而未决的情况。
I've heard that from investigators.
我从调查人员那里听说了这一点。
Those details, they just take on more significance when it's an assassination.
这些细节在暗杀事件中才显得更加重要。
One famous loose end in this case-- at the moment of the assassination, someone in the parking lot yelled, "Blanks!" Or maybe he yelled, "Fake!" or "It's not real!" Witnesses heard all three.
此案中有一个著名的悬而未决的问题——在暗杀发生的那一刻，停车场里有人大喊：“空白！”或者也许他大喊：“假的！”或“这不是真的！”目击者听到了这三点。
Who yelled it and why, that's never been fully resolved.
是谁喊的，为什么喊，这个问题一直没有完全解决。
For Hillel, it's evidence that Amir fired blanks.
对于希勒尔来说，这是阿米尔发射空弹的证据。
A prime minister staging his own assassination, all that cloak and dagger artifice-- Hillel believes that's how committed Rabin was to forcing the Oslo deal.
一位总理亲自策划暗杀，所有那些隐秘的诡计——希勒尔相信，这就是拉宾强制奥斯陆协议的决心。
At the time of the assassination, the country was split almost exactly in half between Oslo opponents and Oslo supporters.
暗杀发生时，这个国家几乎被奥斯陆的反对者和奥斯陆的支持者一分为二。
Hillel was one of the many Israelis who hated Oslo.
希勒尔是众多憎恨奥斯陆的以色列人之一。
He thought the slogan from the pro-Oslo political rally, "Yes to peace," was a farce.
他认为亲奥斯陆政治集会的口号“同意和平”是一场闹剧。
We felt that Oslo is a total disaster, because it's not peace.
我们觉得奥斯陆完全是一场灾难，因为它不是和平。
It's a mask of peace to annihilate the Jewish state and the Jewish people, like in Holocaust.
就像大屠杀一样，这是消灭犹太国家和犹太人民的和平面具。
He says "annihilate the state" because Oslo meant giving up parts of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians.
他说“消灭国家”，因为奥斯陆意味着将约旦河西岸和加沙的部分地区交给巴勒斯坦人。
That's land Hillel considers sacred to the Jews, and he wrote hundreds of articles against Oslo, by his own estimation-- and in the articles, he went after Rabin.
这是希勒尔认为对犹太人来说神圣的土地，据他自己估计，他写了数百篇反对奥斯陆的文章 - 在这些文章中，他追击了拉宾。
I want to say to you something that -- when I wrote the articles, I thought that I'm aiming bullets to the head of Rabin, because those words were so sharp.
我想对你们说的是——当我写这些文章时，我以为我是在把子弹瞄准拉宾的脑袋，因为那些话太尖锐了。
It was these sorts of articles-- plus the posters, the chants of "Death to Rabin," the whole ugly pile of rhetoric-- that, after the assassination, turned public opinion against the right, especially the religious right, and caused a spike in support for the Oslo deal.
正是这类文章——加上海报、“拉宾去死”的口号以及一大堆丑陋的言辞——在暗杀事件发生后，使公众舆论反对右翼，尤其是宗教右翼，并导致奥斯陆协议的支持率激增。
Hillel and the others on the right watched this and a logic took hold-- the who-benefits logic that's common to conspiracy theories.
希勒尔和其他右翼人士看到了这一点，并形成了一种逻辑——阴谋论中常见的谁受益的逻辑。
If the left benefited from the assassination, maybe the left engineered the assassination.
如果左派从暗杀中受益，那么也许左派策划了暗杀。
But the benefit was temporary.
但这种好处是暂时的。
Within six months, the left was out of power, the right was in power, and Oslo was on its way to being gutted.
六个月之内，左翼下台，右翼掌权，奥斯陆正在走向毁灭。
And that's when the arguments really began.
这就是争论真正开始的时候。
Today, and for the last 20 years, the Rabin assassination is a club that the right and left continue to beat each other with in a fight over two radically different interpretations of the country's history, its future-- two visions that are irreconcilable.
如今，在过去的 20 年里，拉宾遇刺事件成为左右两派继续相互攻击的俱乐部，围绕着对国家历史和未来的两种截然不同的解释——两种不可调和的愿景——进行斗争。
This is a Rabin assassination-related shouting match in the debate right before the most recent election.
这是最近一次选举前辩论中与拉宾遇刺有关的争吵。
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Israeli Man [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[说希伯来语] 以色列男子 [说希伯来语]
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Israeli Man [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[说希伯来语] 以色列男子 [说希伯来语]
From the left's perspective, Rabin's assassination is the moment that completely reshaped Israel's history.
从左派的角度来看，拉宾遇刺是彻底重塑以色列历史的时刻。
It killed off the last, best chance for peace between Israels and Palestinians, and Yigal Amir has got to be one of the most successful assassins anywhere.
它扼杀了以色列和巴勒斯坦之间最后的、最好的和平机会，而伊格尔·阿米尔一定是世界上最成功的刺客之一。
One person told us, "Look, when Lincoln was murdered, it didn't bring back slavery.
一个人告诉我们，“看，当林肯被谋杀时，并没有恢复奴隶制。
When Martin Luther King, Jr. was killed, civil rights continued.
当马丁·路德·金被杀时，民权仍在继续。
But after Rabin's murder, Oslo unraveled, settlements expanded, and the right has been in power for most of the past 20 years.
但拉宾被谋杀后，奥斯陆解体，定居点扩大，过去 20 年的大部分时间里右翼一直掌权。
I've heard people on the left call the assassination a coup."
我听左翼人士称此次暗杀为政变。”
The right is incensed by that version of events.
该版本的事件激怒了右翼。
They tell a very different story-- that the peace process had no chance anyway, Arafat was never gonna do what he promised.
他们讲述了一个截然不同的故事——和平进程无论如何都没有机会，阿拉法特永远不会兑现他的承诺。
A wave of Palestinian suicide bombings after Rabin's death turned the country against the peace process.
拉宾死后，巴勒斯坦发生了一波自杀式爆炸事件，导致该国反对和平进程。
In short, Oslo was a fantasy and leftists have been sore losers ever since.
简而言之，奥斯陆是一个幻想，从那时起，左翼分子就一直是痛苦的失败者。
They've lost almost every election for the past 20 years, and to make themselves feel better, they bring up the Rabin assassination and try to stain the entire right with that horrible act.
过去20年来，他们几乎输掉了每一次选举，为了让自己好过一点，他们提起拉宾遇刺事件，并试图用这一可怕的行为来玷污整个右翼。
A lot of people on the right are offended by the suggestion that Yigal Amir acted on their behalf.
许多右翼人士对伊格尔·阿米尔代表他们行事的说法感到愤怒。
We heard again and again in interviews with Israelis on the right and devout Israelis, "Yigal Amir was not from our camp.
在对以色列右翼人士和虔诚的以色列人的采访中，我们一次又一次地听到，“伊格尔·阿米尔不是我们阵营的人。
He was a loner.
他是一个孤独的人。
He lived in Herzliya.
他住在荷兹利亚。
He's not a settler.
他不是定居者。
He wore a different kind of kippah--" kippah meaning yarmulke or skullcap.
他戴着另一种 kippah——“kippah 的意思是圆顶小帽或无边便帽。
"We don't condone what he did.
“我们不会宽恕他的所作所为。
He is not one of us." That's why we were taken aback when an orthodox man named Menachem Lazar, who comes from a very right-wing background, told us Amir didn't seem foreign to him at all-- just the opposite.
他不是我们中的一员。”这就是为什么当一位来自右翼背景、名叫梅纳赫姆·拉扎尔的正统人士告诉我们阿米尔对他来说一点也不陌生——恰恰相反时，我们感到大吃一惊。
But the moment I heard on the TV about the assassination, my first instinct was to take off my kippah.
但当我在电视上听到暗杀事件的那一刻，我的第一反应是脱掉我的kippah。
To take it off your head.
把它从你的头上取下来。
Menachem Lazar Yeah, because I-- I knew the religious origins of the murder, the religious justification of the assassination.
梅纳赫姆·拉扎尔 是的，因为我——我知道谋杀的宗教根源，暗杀的宗教理由。
And I told myself, I can't be a part of it.
我告诉自己，我不能参与其中。
I don't want to be a part of it.
我不想成为其中的一部分。
Menachem is tall and soft-spoken.
梅纳赫姆身材高大，说话轻声细语。
He says, after the assassination, he heard things in private, in the synagogue he attends and at gatherings with friends, that disturbed him and that most Israelis would never say publicly.
他说，暗杀事件发生后，他私下、在他参加的犹太教堂以及与朋友聚会时听到的事情让他感到不安，而大多数以色列人永远不会公开说出来。
I remember people saying, "Well, that's good."
我记得人们说：“嗯，那很好。”
"He had it coming.
“他已经来了。
That's good." I saw people that were glad that he was assassinated.
那很好。”我看到人们对他被暗杀感到高兴。
Menachem didn't take off his kippah in the end.
梅纳赫姆最终没有摘下他的kippah。
He had young kids and he knew it would confuse them.
他有年幼的孩子，他知道这会让他们感到困惑。
We were interviewing Menachem because he's a pollster and we wanted to talk to him about the numbers, the fact that a third of Israelis believe there was some kind of conspiracy or cover-up around the assassination.
我们采访梅纳赫姆是因为他是一名民意调查专家，我们想和他谈谈这些数字，即三分之一的以色列人认为暗杀事件存在某种阴谋或掩盖的事实。
And among people who identify as right-wing, at least 50% doubt Yigal Amir did it.
在自认为是右翼的人中，至少 50% 的人怀疑伊格尔·阿米尔干了这件事。
Menachem is a psychologist by training.
梅纳赫姆是一位训练有素的心理学家。
He was working as a psychologist for the army when Rabin was assassinated, and he said he's never been surprised by the high number of Israelis who believe in the conspiracy theories.
拉宾被暗杀时，他正在军队担任心理学家，他说，他对相信阴谋论的以色列人数量如此之多并不感到惊讶。
Yeah, most of this part comes from the orthodox Israelis, and the orthodox Jews in Israel were blamed for the murder.
是的，这部分大部分来自正统的以色列人，以色列的正统犹太人被指责为谋杀罪魁祸首。
I'm only saying that when reality is too, um-- too threatening or too-- it's hard for you to accept what happened.
我只是说，当现实太，嗯——太具有威胁性或太——时，你很难接受所发生的事情。
So you come up with the conspiracy theories about JFK, about September 11, and about Rabin.
于是你就提出了关于肯尼迪、关于 9 月 11 日以及关于拉宾的阴谋论。
The prime minister was killed.
首相被杀。
He was killed by a religious Jew.
他被一名虔诚的犹太人杀害。
I can't accept that, or I have to find an alternative explanation.
我不能接受这一点，或者我必须找到替代的解释。
And they came up with the conspiracy.
他们想出了这个阴谋。
It's probably clear by now, I've always been skeptical of the conspiracy theories.
现在可能很清楚了，我一直对阴谋论持怀疑态度。
There's just so much evidence proving Yigal Amir killed Rabin.
有太多证据证明伊格尔·阿米尔杀死了拉宾。
But, in reporting on the assassination, I did have one moment when I thought, "Yikes, maybe." It was during an interview with Rabin's daughter, Dalia, who is not a conspiracist and not from the right side of the political map, and yet there was this thing that made even her wonder.
但是，在报道暗杀事件时，我确实有一瞬间想到，“哎呀，也许吧。”那是在采访拉宾的女儿达莉亚时，她不是阴谋家，也不是政治版图的右派，但有这样的事情连她自己都感到惊讶。
And she agreed to talk about it, but she didn't want to be recorded.
她同意谈论这件事，但她不想被记录。
It had to do with the idea that what killed Rabin was a bullet to the front.
这与这样一种观念有关：杀死拉宾的是前线的一颗子弹。
Most of the conspiracy theories hinge on that idea.
大多数阴谋论都基于这个想法。
Remember, Yigal Amir shot Rabin from behind.
请记住，伊格尔·阿米尔从后面射杀了拉宾。
The pathologist concluded that he was hit by just two bullets, both in the back, no exit wounds.
病理学家得出的结论是，他只被两颗子弹击中，都在背部，没有射出伤口。
But when I met Dalia in her office, she told me that even she began to have some doubts.
但当我在达莉亚的办公室见到她时，她告诉我，连她自己也开始产生一些怀疑。
She had a box brought up to her office that contained everything her father was wearing on the night of the assassination, down to the socks and shoes.
她让人把一个盒子带到她的办公室，里面装着她父亲在暗杀当晚穿的所有衣服，包括袜子和鞋子。
She opened the box and pulled out the shirt her father wore.
她打开盒子，拿出父亲穿的衬衫。
She held it in that way that you hold something that you don't want to touch, with the tips of her fingers.
她握着它的方式就好像你用指尖握住了一些你不想碰的东西。
It's a white collared shirt, entirely encrusted in blood, and ripped in several places.
这是一件白领衬衫，浑身都是血，有多处撕裂。
Doctors tore it in the emergency room.
医生在急诊室将其撕裂。
Dalia showed me the two bullet holes in the back of the shirt, and then she flipped the shirt over and pointed to a hole in the front as well.
达莉亚给我看了衬衫后面的两个弹孔，然后她把衬衫翻过来，指着前面的一个洞。
It was perfectly round, smaller than a dime, on the lower-left side, near the buttons.
它是完美的圆形，比一毛钱还小，位于左下角，靠近按钮。
The undershirt Rabin wore that night also had a hole in the front.
拉宾那天晚上穿的汗衫前面也有一个洞。
On her desk, Dalia carefully laid the undershirt inside the shirt, the way it would hang on her father, and the holes lined up.
在桌子上，达莉亚小心翼翼地将背心放在衬衫里面，就像它挂在她父亲身上一样，并将破洞排成一行。
And I have to say, there in her office, with these bloody shirts on the table, it stopped me short.
我不得不说，在她的办公室里，桌子上摆着这些血淋淋的衬衫，这让我突然停住了。
It's a lot harder to dismiss something you see with your own eyes, something the daughter of the murdered man worries about.
忽视亲眼所见的事情要困难得多，这是被谋杀者的女儿所担心的事情。
We just stood there and stared at it.
我们只是站在那里盯着它。
Dalia told me the clothes sat in Israel's National Archive for a decade after the murder.
达莉亚告诉我，谋杀案发生后，这些衣服在以色列国家档案馆保存了十年。
Then in 2005, there was an Israeli TV documentary about the hole in the front of the shirt.
然后在2005年，有一部以色列电视纪录片讲述了衬衫前面的破洞。
It's inconclusive, but it ends with ominous music and a voiceover about how this third hole, quote, "Raises the possibility of an additional bullet."
这还没有定论，但它以不祥的音乐和画外音结束，讲述了第三个洞如何“增加了额外子弹的可能性”。
[MUSIC PLAYING] Documentary Host [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[音乐播放] 纪录片主持人 [希伯来语]
[MUSIC PLAYING] Dan Ephron The TV show popularized the notion that Rabin was actually shot in the front-- you hear that a lot now in Israel-- and it turned the shirt into Exhibit A for the conspiracists, maybe their single most important piece of proof.
[音乐播放] Dan Ephron 这部电视节目普及了这样一种观念，即拉宾实际上是在前面被枪杀的——你现在在以色列经常听到这种说法——它把这件衬衫变成了阴谋论者的证据 A，也许是他们最重要的证据。
Dalia did not want to have the clothes examined herself.
达莉亚不想让自己检查衣服。
She's a public figure and she worried that just the act of her getting them tested would fuel the conspiracy theories.
她是一名公众人物，她担心仅仅她对他们进行检测的行为就会助长阴谋论。
So I asked her if she would let me take the shirt to the US, away from the politics, to have it tested, and she said yes.
所以我问她是否能让我把这件衬衫带到美国，远离政治，进行测试，她说可以。
Dan Ephron and Nancy Updike.
丹·艾弗隆和南希·厄普代克。
Coming up, Dan puts the bloody clothing of the dead prime minister into a wheelie bag and brings it to America to be tested.
上来后，丹将已故总理的血淋淋的衣服放入一个带轮子的袋子中，并将其带到美国进行测试。
The results in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续进行时，芝加哥公共广播电台将在一分钟内公布结果。
Act Two: The Morning Ira Glass It's This American Life.
第二幕：早晨艾拉·格拉斯 这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today's program-- "The Night in Question." If you're just tuning in, we're hearing the story of the night that Israeli prime minister Yitzak Rabin was assassinated 20 years ago.
今天的节目——“有问题的夜晚”。如果您刚刚收听，我们正在听 20 年前以色列总理伊扎克·拉宾 (Yitzak Rabin) 遇刺当晚的故事。
The anniversary of his death is in two weeks.
两周后就是他的忌日了。
It's November 4, 1995.
这是 1995 年 11 月 4 日。
Nancy Updike and Dan Ephron are telling the story, and when we left off before the break, Dan was taking Rabin's bloody clothing from the night of the murder to the United States, with the blessing of Rabin's daughter, to see if the hole in the front of Rabin's shirt was caused by a bullet, which is something that most of the conspiracy theories about the assassination hinge on.
南希·厄普代克和丹·埃夫隆正在讲述这个故事，当我们在中场休息前结束时，丹在拉宾女儿的祝福下，将谋杀当晚的血淋淋的衣服带到美国，看看拉宾衬衫前面的洞是否是由子弹造成的，而这正是大多数有关暗杀的阴谋论所依赖的。
OK, here's Dan.
好的，这是丹。
I flew to Phoenix, and then drove to Carefree, Arizona, a town of about 3,000 people in the desert.
我飞到了菲尼克斯，然后开车去了亚利桑那州的卡弗里，一个大约有 3000 人的沙漠小镇。
Big, open sky, rock formations, lots of cacti.
广阔的天空、岩层、大量的仙人掌。
I pulled up to a one-story house early in the morning.
一大早，我把车停在一栋平房前。
Am I at the right place?
我来对地方了吗？
Luke Haag Yeah, you're at the right place.
卢克·哈格 是的，您来对地方了。
Lucien Haag-- he goes by Luke-- came out to greet me.
卢西安·哈格（Lucien Haag）——他又名卢克——出来迎接我。
He's in his 70s, in brown pants and short sleeve dress shirt and glasses.
他 70 多岁了，穿着棕色裤子和短袖正装衬衫，戴着眼镜。
He works from an office attached to his house.
他在自家附属的办公室工作。
His wife Sandi is there.
他的妻子桑迪也在场。
Do you like tea?
你喜欢喝茶吗？
Dan Ephron Luke is kind of famous among forensic examiners.
丹·埃夫隆·卢克 (Dan Ephron Luke) 在法医检验员中颇有名气。
He's written a book that's a go-to manual in the profession and he's worked on some big cases over the years, including the shootout at Ruby Ridge and the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane.
他写的书是该行业的必备手册，多年来他曾处理过一些重大案件，包括红宝石岭枪战和拉比·梅厄·卡哈尼 (Rabbi Meir Kahane) 谋杀案。
He also reexamined the ballistics of the Kennedy assassination for an episode of NOVA not too long ago.
不久前，他还在 NOVA 的一集中重新审视了肯尼迪遇刺事件的弹道学。
He has a lab and an indoor firing range.
他有一个实验室和一个室内射击场。
He collects all kinds of things-- there's a periodic table in Russian on one of the walls.
他收集各种各样的东西——其中一面墙上有一张俄语元素周期表。
And he's got bullets from all kinds of guns.
他有各种枪的子弹。
He picks out one to show me.
他挑了一个给我看。
--very unusual.
——非常不寻常。
That's the kind of bullet that killed Kennedy.
正是这种子弹杀死了肯尼迪。
And you can see it's very, very long.
你可以看到它非常非常长。
It's basically a cylinder.
它基本上是一个圆柱体。
Very atypical.
非常非典型。
He says Lee Harvey Oswald bought the rifle he used in the assassination for $13 and, he concludes--
他说李·哈维·奥斯瓦尔德 (Lee Harvey Oswald) 花了 13 美元买了他在暗杀中使用的步枪，他得出的结论是——
It's not a great gun, but it will kill you-- as we know.
这不是一把好枪，但据我们所知，它会杀了你。
Luke places my wheelie bag on the countertop in the lab and begins unpacking the clothes, starting with the jacket.
卢克将我的带轮离地包放在实验室的台面上，然后开始打开衣服的包装，从夹克开始。
Boy.
男生。
Israeli paramedics are even worse-- or more thorough, I guess I should say-- than ours.
以色列的医护人员比我们的更糟糕，或者说更彻底，我想我应该说。
They just cut the bejeebers out of this.
他们只是把那些奇怪的事情排除在外。
I'm gonna condense the six hours of forensic testing into about three minutes.
我会将六个小时的法医测试压缩为大约三分钟。
But, just so you know how thorough he was, Luke tested every garment Rabin wore on his upper body the night of the assassination.
但是，正如你知道他有多彻底一样，卢克测试了刺杀当晚拉宾上半身穿的每一件衣服。
He looked at all the holes and he did comparison tests on other parts of the garment.
他检查了所有的破洞，并对衣服的其他部分进行了比较测试。
But I had come for the shirt-- and specifically, the hole in the front.
但我是冲着这件衬衫而来的——特别是前面的破洞。
Whoa.
哇哦。
I'm very surprised.
我很惊讶。
"Whoa" doesn't mean "Oh my god, it's a bullet hole." "Whoa" just means "That's a very clean, sharply-defined hole."
“哇”并不意味着“天哪，这是一个弹孔。” “哇”的意思只是“那是一个非常干净、轮廓分明的洞”。
You know, it almost looks like a, uh-- like a hole punch.
你知道，它看起来几乎就像，呃——就像一个打孔器。
Yeah.
是的。
You certainly brought something different and very interesting.
你确实带来了一些不同的、非常有趣的东西。
And no judgments or pronouncements to make, other than this is different.
除此之外，没有什么不同的判断或声明。
Luke is looking for three things-- traces of soot, copper, and lead.
卢克正在寻找三种东西——烟灰、铜和铅的痕迹。
Bullets leave particles as they pass through fabric.
子弹穿过织物时会留下颗粒。
They tend to cling for decades or more, especially with polyester, and Rabin's shirt was 55% cotton, 45% polyester.
它们往往会粘附数十年或更长时间，尤其是聚酯纤维，拉宾的衬衫是 55% 棉、45% 聚酯纤维。
He photographs the hole with an infrared filter and looks at it through a microscope.
他用红外滤光片拍摄这个洞，并通过显微镜观察。
He sprays the area and does chemical tests.
他喷洒该区域并进行化学测试。
Everything is negative-- no soot, no copper, no lead.
一切都是负面的——没有烟灰、没有铜、没有铅。
And along the way, Luke has ruled out another possibility-- a cigarette burn.
一路上，卢克排除了另一种可能性——香烟烧伤。
Rabin was a heavy smoker.
拉宾是个烟鬼。
Luke suggests one last thing.
卢克建议最后一件事。
He wants to fire a new bullet into a swath of Rabin's shirt to see if the hole it makes-- a genuine bullet hole-- looks anything like the mystery hole.
他想向拉宾衬衫的一块地方发射一颗新子弹，看看它造成的洞——一个真正的弹孔——看起来是否像那个神秘的洞。
He gets out the scissors.
他拿出剪刀。
So for the record, with a pair of sharp scissors, I'm cutting out about a-- oh, about a three-inch square--
所以郑重声明，我用一把锋利的剪刀，剪出大约一个——哦，大约三英寸见方——
Luke then said a sentence I've never heard before-- "I think I've got a fresh block of tissue simulant in the garage." He left the lab and came back with a big, brown rectangle of something that was both squishy and firm.
然后卢克说了一句我以前从未听过的一句话——“我想我车库里有一块新鲜的组织模拟物。”他离开实验室，回来时带着一个又大又软又硬的棕色长方形东西。
This behaves similar to soft tissue.
这与软组织的行为类似。
If you push into it-- if I push into you or a fat guy like me, it's gonna feel about the same.
如果你逼迫——如果我逼迫你或者像我这样的胖子，感觉会是一样的。
So the block is a stand-in for human flesh.
所以这个方块是人肉的替代品。
Luke taped the patch of shirt to the block.
卢克把那块衬衫贴在块上。
We went to his range and then he fired a bullet at the patch.
我们去了他的射程，然后他向那块地开了一枪。
I didn't record the sound because I worried it would blow out the recording equipment, which I don't own.
我没有录制声音，因为我担心它会烧坏我不拥有的录音设备。
Luke shot from up close.
卢克近距离射击。
As we figured it, just about any scenario where Rabin was shot in the front would mean he was shot at close range.
正如我们所计算的，拉宾正面中弹的任何情况都意味着他是近距离中枪的。
Luke then examined the new hole under the microscope.
卢克随后在显微镜下检查了这个新洞。
He compared the patch to the mystery hole, looked up from the lens, and that was it.
他将补丁与神秘的洞进行了比较，从镜头上抬起头来，就是这样。
The two looked nothing alike.
两人看上去毫无相似之处。
But it just can't be a bullet.
但它不可能是子弹。
I mean, there's just nothing there to support that notion.
我的意思是，没有任何东西可以支持这个想法。
I've been looking at bullet holes for 47 years or so.
我观察弹孔已有 47 年左右的时间。
I shoot things for a living-- I mean, almost daily I'm shooting something.
我以拍摄为生——我的意思是，几乎每天我都在拍摄一些东西。
Everything I see says it's something other than a bullet.
我所看到的一切都表明这不是子弹。
So, it's not a bullet hole.
所以，这不是弹孔。
That's the important part.
这是重要的部分。
Rabin was not shot in the front.
拉宾的正面没有中弹。
Dalia was relieved when I let her know.
当我告诉达莉亚这个消息后，她松了口气。
The cause of the hole will probably remain one of those loose ends.
造成这个洞的原因可能仍然是那些未解决的问题之一。
Maybe someone tampered with the shirt while it sat for years in the archives.
也许有人在这件衬衫在档案室里呆了很多年的时候对它做了手脚。
Luke speculated that the hole was created by a doctor during the chaos at the hospital, maybe with some medical instrument while they were trying to save his life.
卢克推测这个洞是一名医生在医院混乱时造成的，可能是在他们试图挽救他生命时使用某种医疗器械造成的。
I ran down all sorts of other disputed facts from the night of the assassination.
我记下了暗杀当晚所有其他有争议的事实。
I talked to Shabak officers, the investigators, the prosecutor.
我与沙巴克警官、调查人员和检察官进行了交谈。
The only other thing I want to report to you is the conversation I had with Rabin's driver from that night.
我唯一想向你们报告的另一件事是那天晚上我与拉宾的司机的谈话。
Remember that most of the conspiracy theories say Rabin was actually killed in the car, possibly by a mysterious additional person-- not the driver, not the bodyguard, someone else.
请记住，大多数阴谋论都说拉宾实际上是在车里被杀的，可能是被另一个神秘的人杀死的——不是司机，不是保镖，而是其他人。
The driver, Menachem Damti, is listed in the country directory, so we called him up one morning and he said, "Sure, come over this afternoon."
司机梅纳赫姆·达姆蒂 (Menachem Damti) 被列入国家/地区名录，因此一天早上我们给他打电话，他说：“当然，今天下午过来。”
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Dan Ephron [SPEAKING HEBREW]
[希伯来语] Dan Ephron [希伯来语]
He's 66 years old, very fit, a few months away from his pension.
他今年 66 岁，身体非常健康，还有几个月就可以领取养老金了。
He was in gym shorts when we went over.
我们过去时他穿着运动短裤。
A large percentage of Israelis at any given moment are dressed like they're about to go to the beach or just got back from the beach.
很大一部分以色列人在任何特定时刻都穿着就像他们即将去海滩或刚刚从海滩回来一样。
He lives in a modest apartment.
他住在一间简陋的公寓里。
He was a driver for three decades for political leaders from both parties.
三十年来，他一直是两党政治领导人的推动者。
He's got a wall in his kitchen covered in framed photos of him with the people he drove for-- several Israeli prime ministers, also Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Anwar Sadat.
他厨房里的一面墙上挂满了他和他开车送行的人的相框照片——几位以色列总理，还有比尔·克林顿、吉米·卡特、安瓦尔·萨达特。
Menachem does a pretty spot on impression of Rabin telling him from the backseat, in his taciturn way, "Menachem, nice maneuver."
梅纳赫姆对拉宾在后座上以沉默寡言的方式对他留下了深刻的印象，“梅纳赫姆，动作不错。”
What Menachem remembers about that night, after jumping into the driver's seat, is Rabin's bodyguard, Yoram Rabin, lifting Rabin into the backseat, diving in after him, and then he yells to Menachem, "Go to the hospital, quickly!" Next, Menachem does a quick move he's been taught to make the car doors slam shut.
梅纳赫姆记得那天晚上，跳进驾驶座后，拉宾的保镖约拉姆·拉宾把拉宾抱到后座，跟在他后面，然后他对梅纳赫姆喊道：“快去医院！”接下来，梅纳赫姆按照他所学的快速动作，将车门关上。
The drill is, in order to close the doors, you press on the gas, and then quickly press on the brakes, and then give gas.
演习是，为了关门，你踩油门，然后快速踩刹车，然后给油门。
And the force of the sudden acceleration closes the door, slams the doors.
突然加速的力量关上门，砰地关上门。
This was-- Menachem is mentioning this because he himself has heard about these conspiracy theories.
这是——梅纳赫姆之所以提到这一点，是因为他自己也听说过这些阴谋论。
One of them is who slammed the door-- ostensibly, mysteriously, because there is no one.
其中之一是关上门的人——表面上很神秘，因为没有人。
And this was kind of the evidence that there was someone inside the car in addition to Rabin and Damti and Rabin.
这可以证明车内除了拉宾、达姆蒂和拉宾之外还有其他人。
Then Menachem makes a left, which is the wrong way to go to the hospital.
然后梅纳赫姆左转，这是去医院的错误路线。
There were people and police barricades all around, he was in shock, and he went left.
周围都是人和警察的路障，他很震惊，于是他向左走。
This is another part of the conspiracy theory-- that he intentionally delayed getting to the hospital so that whoever else was supposedly in the car had time to kill Rabin.
这是阴谋论的另一部分——他故意推迟去医院的时间，这样车里的其他人就有时间杀死拉宾。
It's clear as Menachem is talking that going left that night-- his mistake-- galls him.
梅纳赫姆说得很清楚，那天晚上向左走——他的错误——让他很恼火。
I asked Menachem what was happening in the car as he drove.
我问梅纳赫姆开车时车里发生了什么。
Was it chaotic?
混乱吗？
Was it loud?
声音大吗？
Were he and the bodyguard Yoram Rabin shouting or talking to each other?
他和保镖约拉姆·拉宾 (Yoram Rabin) 是否在互相喊叫或交谈？
Was Rabin making any noise?
拉宾有发出任何声音吗？
He said it was horribly, horribly quiet.
他说这里安静得可怕、可怕。
Um, he remembers hearing a little bit from Rabin-- maybe it was a sigh, maybe it was a word-- but mostly nothing.
嗯，他记得从拉宾那里听到过一些声音——也许是一声叹息，也许是一个词——但基本上什么也没有。
And whatever he did hear, it was mostly Rabin, the bodyguard, from the backseat.
无论他听到什么，大部分都是来自后座的保镖拉宾。
Menachem said, "Is he OK?
梅纳赫姆说：“他还好吗？
Resuscitate him.
让他苏醒。
Make sure--" and occasionally asking him, "What's his condition?" And then at some point, Rabin says, "I'm also wounded." And from that point on, it felt like utter despair.
确保——”并偶尔问他，“他的状况如何？”然后在某个时候，拉宾说：“我也受伤了。”从那时起，我就感觉彻底绝望了。
Menachem felt like he was alone in the car.
梅纳赫姆感觉车里只有他一个人。
He was the only one who was actually capable of doing something.
他是唯一一个真正有能力做某事的人。
For 30 years, Menachem had been a driver, and the drill was always that there was a bodyguard sitting next to him.
30年来，梅纳赫姆一直是一名司机，训练的内容就是他旁边总是坐着一名保镖。
And the bodyguard would say, "You go right here, you go left there.
保镖会说：“你从这里向右走，从那里向左走。
Take this road.
走这条路。
Do this." Because everyone had pounced on the shooter and everyone was focused on him, there was no one to come into the car and sit next to Menachem.
做这个。”因为所有人都扑向了枪手，所有人的注意力都集中在他身上，所以没有人上车坐在梅纳赫姆旁边。
And it's exactly the way you describe it.
这正是你所描述的方式。
He's saying he felt utterly alone, utterly alone.
他说他感到非常孤独，非常孤独。
I got a very visceral sense of who Rabin was, what he was in Israel, and what his death meant in the country when we talked to one of his most vocal enemies.
当我们与拉宾最直言不讳的敌人之一交谈时，我对拉宾是谁、他在以色列是什么以及他的死对这个国家意味着什么有了一种非常发自内心的认识。
This is an activist named Daniella Weiss, no relation to Hillel Weiss.
这是一位名叫达妮埃拉·韦斯 (Daniella Weiss) 的活动家，与希勒尔·韦斯 (Hillel Weiss) 没有任何关系。
She is right-wing, like Hillel, and her single-minded drive in the last 40 years has been to settle as many Jews as possible in the West Bank as quickly as possible.
她和希勒尔一样是右翼分子，过去 40 年她一心一意地致力于尽快在约旦河西岸安置尽可能多的犹太人。
She helped build one of the early settlements named Kedumim.
她帮助建立了一个名为凯杜明（Kedumim）的早期定居点。
Now she heads a group that sets up outposts, new settlements built without formal permission from the government.
现在，她领导着一个建立前哨基地的小组，这是未经政府正式许可而建立的新定居点。
She showed us a map she made when she was mayor of the town.
她向我们展示了她担任镇长时制作的地图。
And I-- I did this with my secretary.
我和我的秘书一起做了这件事。
We actually pasted all these dots so that we now see all the 250 settlements and outposts.
实际上，我们粘贴了所有这些点，以便我们现在可以看到所有 250 个定居点和前哨站。
Daniella was considered fringe for a long time, but in the steady drift of Israeli politics, the mainstream has come to her.
丹妮拉长期以来一直被认为是边缘人物，但随着以色列政治的稳步发展，主流已经来到了她身边。
She organized the main election rally of the right wing a few months ago in Tel Aviv.
几个月前，她在特拉维夫组织了右翼的主要选举集会。
When it was time for Prime Minister Netanyahu to speak, Daniella is the one who took the stage to introduce him.
当内塔尼亚胡总理讲话时，达妮埃拉上台介绍他。
She's a firm believer in conspiracy theories, by the way.
顺便说一句，她是阴谋论的坚定信徒。
Talking to Daniella, she's so media savvy, it was like talking to a mind reader sometimes.
与丹妮拉交谈，她对媒体非常了解，有时就像在与读心者交谈。
Before I could even say, "Hey, can you please start that sentence over?
在我还没来得及说之前，“嘿，你能重新开始那句话吗？
A loud truck was going by," she would pause and start the sentence over.
一辆吵闹的卡车驶过，”她会停顿一下，重新开始说这句话。
We asked her about the Rabin assassination and Daniella was blunt.
我们向她询问拉宾遇刺事件，丹妮拉直言不讳。
She knew exactly what it meant for her and her movement-- and for the Oslo deal.
她清楚地知道这对她和她的运动以及奥斯陆协议意味着什么。
The major thought that crossed my mind was, OK, it's a new time.
我脑子里闪过的主要想法是，好吧，这是一个新时代。
It's a new era.
这是一个新时代。
We will continue-- continue to build the land.
我们将继续——继续建设这片土地。
I was thinking in historical and political terms.
我从历史和政治角度思考。
Right away that night?
那天晚上就马上吗？
Daniella Weiss Right away, when I heard-- when I heard about the murder.
丹妮拉·韦斯 (Daniella Weiss) 当我听说谋杀案时，我立刻就这么做了。
I thought history changed-- that Rabin's plan of withdrawal from here, from Judea and Samaria--
我认为历史改变了——拉宾从这里、从犹太和撒玛利亚撤军的计划——
Judea and Samaria are what religious Jews call the northern and southern parts of the West Bank.
犹太和撒玛利亚是宗教犹太人所说的西岸北部和南部地区。
--from Judea and Samaria came to a stop and a new era opened for us.
——从犹太和撒玛利亚停下来，一个新时代为我们开启。
And from the day-to-day, the chances of removing us from here get lower and lower.
日复一日，我们离开这里的可能性越来越低。
We were talking to Danielle in her living room and she told us she has a plaque outside, built into the wall around her house, commemorating the founding of Kedumim, and it quotes Rabin.
我们在丹妮尔的客厅里和她交谈，她告诉我们她房子周围的墙上嵌着一块牌匾，纪念凯杜明的成立，上面引用了拉宾的话。
Can we go look at this plaque right now?
我们现在可以去看看这块牌匾吗？
We walked out her front door, down the path through her yard, around to the right, and down the hill a bit.
我们走出她的前门，沿着小路穿过她的院子，向右转，然后下了山。
Kedumim is a lush, well-tended, sunny, suburban-looking place, like a lot of the oldest settlements.
凯杜明是一个郁郁葱葱、维护良好、阳光明媚、看起来像郊区的地方，就像许多最古老的定居点一样。
The plaque says the quote is from the minutes of a cabinet meeting back from when Rabin was prime minister the first time in 1975 and he had to decide what to do about Daniella Weiss and others who had taken over this hill in the West Bank, this hill in front of us.
牌匾上写着这句话来自拉宾 1975 年第一次担任总理时的一次内阁会议记录，他必须决定如何处理丹妮拉·韦斯和其他人，他们占领了约旦河西岸的这座山，也就是我们面前的这座山。
It's pretty well surrounded by Palestinian towns.
它周围都是巴勒斯坦城镇。
Every time the Israeli army removed them, they went back-- eight times, the plaque says.
牌匾上写着，每次以色列军队将他们移走时，他们都会回去——八次。
I like to show this quotation from Yitzhak Rabin because I find it very much encouraging for the future.
我喜欢展示伊扎克·拉宾的这句话，因为我发现它对未来非常鼓舞人心。
Because people tell us, OK, you'll see.
因为人们告诉我们，好吧，你会看到的。
For instance, today, the world will boycott you.
比如说今天，全世界都会抵制你。
Nobody will buy things that are produced in the settlement.
没有人会购买定居点生产的东西。
And there is this obstacle and that obstacle.
还有这个障碍和那个障碍。
So I always refer people to Rabin's declaration.
所以我总是建议人们参考拉宾的宣言。
She reads from the plaque.
她读着牌匾。
Daniella Weiss "The words of Yitzhak Rabin, the Prime Minister, to the members of the government." [SPEAKING HEBREW]
丹妮拉·韦斯“总理伊扎克·拉宾对政府成员的话。” [说希伯来语]
Nancy Updike The quote is short.
南希·厄普代克 引言很短。
Rabin said, about Daniella and the others, "Let them enter Camp Kadum, and after three weeks, they'll all go home." His thinking was, no houses, no electricity, no water, no toilets-- if we call their bluff and leave them there, these people are not gonna stick it out.
拉宾谈到丹妮拉和其他人时说，“让他们进入卡杜姆营地，三周后，他们就会回家。”他的想法是，没有房子，没有电，没有水，没有厕所——如果我们揭穿他们的虚张声势并让他们留在那里，这些人就不会坚持下去。
The dismissiveness was typical of Rabin dealing with the settlers.
这种轻蔑的态度是拉宾对待定居者的典型表现。
He didn't like them and he didn't hide it.
他不喜欢他们，也没有隐瞒。
He called them a cancer in the body of Israeli democracy.
他称它们为以色列民主体内的毒瘤。
He saw them as fringe, especially compared to him.
他认为他们是边缘人，尤其是与他相比。
His political party had held power for decades.
他的政党已经掌权数十年。
They founded the country.
他们建立了这个国家。
Rabin was a general.
拉宾是一位将军。
He'd won the Six Day War.
他赢得了六日战争。
He was Israel.
他是以色列。
And he was utterly secular, completely unmoved by the spiritual attachment religious Jews feel toward the West Bank.
他完全是世俗的，完全不为宗教犹太人对西岸的精神依恋所感动。
To him, the settlers were an irritant.
对他来说，定居者是一种刺激。
Well, it was a big mistake on his side.
好吧，这对他来说是一个很大的错误。
From my point of view, I'm glad he made this mistake.
从我的角度来看，我很高兴他犯了这个错误。
That he underestimated the settlers, the settlement movement.
他低估了定居者和定居运动。
Had he estimated it properly, he would have blocked it.
如果他估量得当的话，他早就挡住了。
Oslo was Rabin's do-over, his attempt to block the settlements the way he failed to do in 1975.
奥斯陆是拉宾的重头戏，他试图阻止定居点的建设，但他在 1975 年却失败了。
And Daniella is one of the few right-wing Israelis we talked to who says openly, "We won.
丹妮拉是我们交谈过的少数几个公开表示“我们赢了”的右翼以色列人之一。
After Rabin died, the path toward our vision of the future was clearer than it ever was before.
拉宾去世后，我们对未来的愿景的道路比以往任何时候都更加清晰。
And we've been building settlements since then.
从那时起我们就一直在建设定居点。
We won the land and we won the politics." Today, only 15% of the country identifies as left wing.
我们赢得了土地，我们赢得了政治。”如今，该国只有 15% 的人认为自己属于左翼。
The left is the fringe.
左边是边缘。
Here in America, lots of us think it's a tough, complicated situation over there.
在美国，我们很多人都认为那里的局势艰难而复杂。
There's violence, there's anger, there's mistrust, but somehow this is going to work out eventually.
有暴力、有愤怒、有不信任，但不知何故，这最终会解决。
In the end, the Israelis will give up land.
最终，以色列人将放弃土地。
In the end, Palestinian violence will subside.
最终，巴勒斯坦的暴力将会平息。
They will have their own state.
他们将拥有自己的国家。
Somehow, this is all going to happen.
不知何故，这一切都会发生。
But in the 20 years since for Rabin's death, it hasn't happened.
但拉宾去世20年来，这种情况并没有发生。
And it's not getting more likely.
而且这种可能性并没有变得更大。
It's getting less likely.
可能性越来越小了
There's a letter Hagai, the assassin's brother, wrote from prison sometime after the assassination.
刺杀者的兄弟哈盖在刺杀事件发生后的某个时候在监狱里写了一封信。
It's a letter where he explains why he and his brother decided to kill Rabin.
在这封信中，他解释了为什么他和他的兄弟决定杀死拉宾。
And he puts the assassination in the context of the long arc of Jewish history.
他将这次暗杀置于犹太历史的长河中。
He already knows what it means for Israel.
他已经知道这对以色列意味着什么。
He writes, "According to Judaism, killing a king is profoundly significant.
他写道：“根据犹太教，杀死国王具有深远的意义。
It affects the entire nation and alters its destiny." Hagai has no patience for the conspiracists.
它影响整个国家并改变其命运。”哈盖对阴谋分子没有耐心。
They attribute the murder to someone else, which means they deny him and his brother the credit for an act the Amir brothers knew at the time would save Israel.
他们将谋杀归咎于其他人，这意味着他们否认他和他的兄弟因阿米尔兄弟当时知道将拯救以色列的行为而受到赞扬。
Now, 20 years later, they feel vindicated.
20 年后的今天，他们感觉自己的决定是正确的。
And as we were interviewing Hagai sitting in his front yard, we had a moment that made us realize what a weird disconnect he and his brother live every day.
当我们采访哈盖坐在他的前院时，我们有一个时刻让我们意识到他和他的兄弟每天都过着多么奇怪的脱节。
We're sitting there talking and we notice that something was up with his mother, Geula.
我们坐在那里聊天，注意到他的母亲古拉出了点问题。
She was sort of hovering nearby.
她就在附近徘徊。
She offered us water, asked if we wanted to sit inside.
她给我们提供了水，问我们是否想坐在里面。
She was very welcoming.
她非常热情。
And then she just stayed outside, within earshot, clearly listening, doing what seemed like make-work in the yard.
然后她就呆在外面，在能听见的范围内，清晰地听着，在院子里做着一些看起来像是做事的事情。
It was after 9:00 at night.
当时是晚上 9:00 以后。
And at some point, she jumped into the conversation from the sidelines and said to her son, "And you-- tell the truth.
在某个时刻，她从一旁跳入谈话，对她的儿子说：“而你——说实话。
Don't hide anything."
不要隐瞒任何事情。”
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Nancy Updike "Tell the truth." She's saying that to her son.
[说希伯来语]南希·厄普代克“说实话。”她是这么对她儿子说的。
Even his own mother believes the conspiracy theories.
就连他自己的母亲也相信这些阴谋论。
Maybe someone else killed Rabin.
也许是其他人杀了拉宾。
Maybe they set up her sons to take the fall.
也许他们陷害了她的儿子们来承担责任。
Maybe her own sons aren't telling her the full truth.
也许她自己的儿子没有告诉她全部真相。
Geula doesn't come over.
古拉没有过来。
She just stays off to the side.
她只是站在一边。
But she starts arguing with Hagai about what happened on the night of the assassination.
但她开始与哈盖争论刺杀当晚发生的事情。
Danny and I are barely in the conversation at all-- it's just the two of them talking to each other with Danny sometimes translating-- and they get into the nitty-gritty of the night.
丹尼和我几乎没有交谈——只是他们两个互相交谈，丹尼有时会翻译——然后他们就进入了夜晚的实质内容。
She starts talking about the bus Yigal Amir took to the rally where he shot Rabin.
她开始谈论伊格尔·阿米尔乘坐的巴士前往集会，在那里他枪杀了拉宾。
She's saying, "How hard would it have been for a pickpocket to have taken the gun and switched the bullets for blanks?"
她说：“扒手拿走枪并将子弹换成空弹有多难？”
Hagai says, "It would have been very hard." He says, "Yigal used to keep his gun between his belt and his body, the same way I do.
Hagai 说：“这会非常困难。”他说：“伊格尔过去常常把枪放在腰带和身体之间，就像我一样。
You'd feel it if someone tried to take it out."
如果有人试图把它取出来，你就会感觉到。”
Geula says, "Not if it's a professional pickpocket.
古拉说：“如果是专业扒手就不会。
Their skill is stunning.
他们的技艺令人惊叹。
It's unimaginable.
这是难以想象的。
They can take your ear from here and put it over there." She says she talked about all of this to Yigal and he got mad at her.
他们可以把你的耳朵从这里拿下来放到那里。”她说她向伊格尔谈论了这一切，他对她很生气。
He said, "Conspiracy this, conspiracy that.
他说：“阴谋这个，阴谋那个。
You're my mother."
你是我的母亲。”
She said to him, "Yes, I'm your mother, but I'm not dumb.
她对他说：“是的，我是你的妈妈，但我不傻。
We have to understand what's going on here." She goes on, "Of course Yigal confessed.
我们必须了解这里发生了什么。”她继续说道：“伊格尔当然承认了。
They put you in a position where you have to confess."
他们把你置于一个必须认罪的境地。”
Hagai says, "The confession has nothing to do with it.
哈盖说：“认罪与此无关。
He fired his gun.
他开枪了。
Let's say that if Rabin hadn't died, if he'd only been crippled, then OK.
假设拉宾没有死，只是瘸了，那就好吧。
But Yigal took into account that Rabin might die.
但伊格尔考虑到拉宾可能会死。
He shot him in the back."
他从背后开枪射中了他。”
[SPEAKING HEBREW] Nancy Updike Geula eventually went back inside.
[希伯来语]南希·厄普代克·古拉最终回到了里面。
Hagai told us that the problem with the conspiracy theories is that they take away the whole ideological statement they were trying to make by killing Rabin, the clear message that Oslo was terrible and that Yigal Amir acted on what he saw as his religious obligation to stop Rabin.
哈盖告诉我们，阴谋论的问题在于，它们剥夺了他们试图通过杀死拉宾来表达的整个意识形态声明，即奥斯陆是可怕的，以及伊格尔·阿米尔履行了他认为阻止拉宾的宗教义务的明确信息。
Yigal Amir, in his interrogation with policeman Moti Naftali, said he felt he had to kill Rabin before a crazy person did it.
伊格尔·阿米尔（Yigal Amir）在接受警察莫蒂·纳夫塔利（Moti Naftali）审讯时表示，他觉得自己必须在疯狂的人这么做之前杀死拉宾。
He said if a crazy person killed Rabin, it wouldn't have the right impact.
他说如果一个疯子杀了拉宾，不会产生应有的影响。
The message would have been lost.
该消息将会丢失。
Nancy Updike is one of the producers of our show.
南希·厄普代克是我们节目的制片人之一。
Dan Ephron is the author of the book Killing a King-- The Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and the Remaking of Israel , which comes out this week.
丹·艾弗隆 (Dan Ephron) 是《杀死国王——刺杀伊扎克·拉宾与以色列的重建》一书的作者，该书将于本周出版。
Yigal Amir and Hagai Amir have recently come around to the idea that maybe the conspiracy theorists are correct about one thing-- maybe there are loose ends out there that might exonerate Yigal, who's still in prison.
伊格尔·阿米尔和哈盖·阿米尔最近开始认识到，也许阴谋论者在一件事上是正确的——也许还有一些悬而未决的事情可以为仍在监狱中的伊格尔开脱。
They're looking at these now and considering petitioning for a retrial.
他们现在正在考虑这些并考虑申请重审。
[MUSIC - "LINCOLN LIMOUSINE" BY JERRY LEE LEWIS]
[音乐 - 杰瑞·李·刘易斯的《林肯豪华轿车》]
Credits Ira Glass Well, our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar with Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
感谢 Ira Glass 嗯，我们今天的节目由 Jonathan Menjivar 与 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Neil Drumming、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our editor is Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Julie Snyder is our editorial consultant.
朱莉·斯奈德是我们的编辑顾问。
Other editing help today from Susan Burton, production help from Lilly Sullivan.
今天的其他编辑帮助来自苏珊·伯顿 (Susan Burton)，制作帮助来自莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan)。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson is our business operations manager.
Elise Bergerson 是我们的业务运营经理。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Kimberly Henderson is the office coordinator.
Kimberly Henderson 是办公室协调员。
Research help today from Christopher Swetala.
Christopher Swetala 今天提供研究帮助。
Original music used as scoring all this hour by Merel & Tony.
梅雷尔和托尼整个小时都使用原创音乐作为配乐。
Other musical help today from Damian Graef and Rob Geddis.
今天，达米安·格雷夫 (Damian Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供了其他音乐帮助。
Special thanks today to Daniel Estrin, David Blumenfeld, and Shlomo Harnoy of the Sdema Group.
今天特别感谢 Sdema 集团的 Daniel Estrin、David Blumenfeld 和 Shlomo Harnoy。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who has been obsessed lately-- obsessed, I tell you-- watching the Israeli edition of Sesame Street.
一如既往地感谢我们节目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生，他最近痴迷于观看以色列版的《芝麻街》，我告诉你。
He especially loves this one character on the show who is always asking--
他特别喜欢剧中这个总是问的角色——
"Don't you have any cookies?" Ira Glass I'm Ira Glass.
“你没有饼干吗？”艾拉·格拉斯 我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Shabbat shalom, everybody.
安息日平安，大家好。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life.
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - "LINCOLN LIMOUSINE" BY JERRY LEE LEWIS]
[音乐 - 杰瑞·李·刘易斯的《林肯豪华轿车》]
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。