566: The Land of Make Believe - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #566 | September 11, 2015 566: The Land of Make Believe Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 566 集 | 2015 年 9 月 11 日 566：虚构之地 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass We were putting together today's radio show, and we came across this idea that totally changed how we saw the stories that you're going to hear today.
序言 Ira Glass 我们正在整理今天的广播节目，我们遇到了这个想法，它完全改变了我们对你们今天将要听到的故事的看法。
This idea was in a talk that George RR Martin gave.
这个想法是在乔治·R·R·马丁的一次演讲中提出的。
He's the guy who wrote the series of fantasy books that Game of Thrones was based on, back in the 1930s and '40s.
他是 20 世纪 30 年代和 40 年代创作了《权力的游戏》所改编的奇幻小说系列的人。
And he was talking about his job on stage in front of some fans, and specifically he was talking about how JRR Tolkien changed everything for people in his kind of work, for people who write fantasy stories.
他在舞台上在一些粉丝面前谈论他的工作，特别是他谈论 JRR 托尔金如何为从事他这种工作的人们、为那些写奇幻故事的人们改变一切。
And when I say "changed everything," I don't mean putting a double R in the middle of your name if you're a fantasy writer.
当我说“改变了一切”时，如果你是一名奇幻作家，我并不是说在你的名字中间放一个双 R。
Tolkien, of course, wrote Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit .
当然，托尔金写了《指环王》和《霍比特人》。
And one of the things he did that was extraordinary was create Middle Earth in such detail.
他所做的一件非凡的事情就是如此详细地创造了中土世界。
If you look at some of the pre-Tolkien fantasy, it's written more in a story of fairy tales.
如果你看一下托尔金之前的一些奇幻作品，你会发现它更多地是用童话故事来写的。
You know, "Once upon a time, there was a king, and the king had a beautiful daughter." But you won't know, like, who was the king's father, or who was his grandfather, how the dynasty came to power, or what the neighboring countries are."
你知道，“从前，有一个国王，国王有一个美丽的女儿。”但你不会知道，比如，谁是国王的父亲，谁是他的祖父，王朝是如何掌权的，或者邻国是什么。”
But Tolkien gave all that, and more.
但托尔金给予了这一切，甚至更多。
He created whole histories and languages and genealogies.
他创造了整个历史、语言和家谱。
He created stuff that never even appeared in the books.
他创造了书中从未出现过的东西。
And it seemed as real as England or France or Germany when you read these things.
当你读到这些东西时，它看起来就像英国、法国或德国一样真实。
Make-believe just has more heft-- it gets to you more, it feels like more-- the more detail there is to make the world in the story feel real.
虚构的东西越多，就越能触动你的心，让你感觉越多，故事中的世界就越真实。
Which when you think about it, of course, is obvious, whether you're telling a story, or you're designing Grand Theft Auto, or you're a spy needing to invent a cover, or you're a cheater or a con man of some kind, making up a scam.
当然，当你思考这一点时，这一点是显而易见的，无论你是在讲故事，还是在设计《侠盗猎车手》，或者你是一个需要发明掩护的间谍，或者你是一个骗子或某种骗子，编造了一个骗局。
But this idea was interesting to us, because today on our show, we have two stories of make-believe worlds.
但这个想法对我们来说很有趣，因为今天在我们的节目中，我们有两个虚构世界的故事。
Act One is about an amazingly successful one.
第一幕讲述的是一场令人惊讶的成功。
Act Two is about a fantastically unsuccessful one.
第二幕讲述的是一场极其失败的故事。
And when we heard that quote from George RR Martin, we realized, right.
当我们听到乔治·R·R·马丁的这句话时，我们意识到，是的。
These worlds live or die, their success or their failure depends, on these details, on how believable they are, how precisely chosen.
这些世界是生是死，它们的成功或失败取决于这些细节，取决于它们的可信度和选择的精确程度。
That's at the heart of both these stories.
这是这两个故事的核心。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
How make-believe works.
虚构是如何运作的。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Overboard.
第一幕：过分。
So there are 12 kids in the Steinfels family, and they grew up in the 1980s in a very unusual situation.
Steinfels 一家有 12 个孩子，他们在 20 世纪 80 年代的一个非常不寻常的环境中长大。
They all worked on a ship.
他们都在船上工作。
Their dad, Jim, had been in the Navy, and he oversaw them.
他们的父亲吉姆曾在海军服役，他负责监督他们。
They swabbed the decks.
他们擦拭了甲板。
They served food in the chow line.
他们在食物队列中提供食物。
They wore uniforms-- white sailor hats, black neckerchiefs.
他们穿着制服——白色水手帽，黑色围巾。
Miki Meek tells more.
米基·米克讲述了更多内容。
When Joe was in elementary school, his favorite part of working on the ship was night watch.
当乔上小学时，他最喜欢在船上工作的部分是守夜。
That's when all the rest of the crew was asleep.
就在那时，其他船员都已经睡着了。
You know, which I loved, you know?
你知道，我喜欢它，你知道吗？
I loved it.
我喜欢它。
From midnight to 4:00 in the morning, that was one of my favorite watches, where it's quiet.
从午夜到凌晨 4:00，那是我最喜欢的手表之一，那里很安静。
You're listening to talk radio coming out with their little weather alerts and stuff.
你正在听谈话广播，其中有一些小天气警报之类的东西。
And you're sitting there, and every half-hour, you have to get up and walk around and make sure the ship's secure and all that.
你坐在那里，每隔半小时，你就必须站起来走动一下，确保船的安全等等。
Colder as the evening and morning hours approach.
随着傍晚和早晨的临近，天气越来越冷。
Joe was only six years old, little Navy hat on his head, peering over the side, watching for any incoming threat.
乔只有六岁，头上戴着海军小帽子，从侧面凝视着，警惕任何即将到来的威胁。
I remember clearly, you know, there was raccoons one night that were over making noise near the garbage can area.
我清楚地记得，你知道，有一天晚上，有浣熊在垃圾桶附近发出噪音。
Yes.
是的。
Raccoons.
浣熊。
I should clarify.
我应该澄清一下。
The ship that he worked on, it was not at sea.
他工作的那艘船不在海上。
It was not moving.
它一动不动。
It was stationed in the driveway of their house in suburban Chicago.
它停在他们位于芝加哥郊区的房子的车道上。
But Joe took his job seriously and kept a logbook that he updated almost every half-hour.
但乔认真对待他的工作，并保留了一本日志，几乎每半小时更新一次。
And so I think I annotated something along those lines in the logbook.
所以我想我在日志中注释了一些类似的内容。
You know, "2:30 in the morning, raccoons," such and such.
你知道，“浣熊，凌晨 2:30”之类的。
So, "Made rounds.
于是，“绕了一圈。
All is not secure.
一切都不安全。
Raccoons."
浣熊。”
You know, it gave so much officialness to what we were doing.
你知道，这让我们所做的事情变得非常正式。
This wasn't just a game.
这不仅仅是一场游戏。
This was-- this was life.
这就是——这就是生活。
The idea to build a ship in the driveway came from his sister, Elizabeth.
在车道上建造一艘船的想法来自他的妹妹伊丽莎白。
They shared a room, and one day when their parents told them to clean it up, Elizabeth made a deal with Joe.
他们共用一个房间，有一天，当父母让他们清理房间时，伊丽莎白和乔做了一笔交易。
If he'd take care of it, she'd build them a ship.
如果他愿意的话，她就会为他们建造一艘船。
She was five; he was four.
她五岁；他四岁了。
The big sister.
大姐姐。
Joe said yes.
乔说是的。
So Elizabeth dragged a couple boxes into their backyard and started to pull together materials.
于是伊丽莎白拖了几个盒子到后院，开始收集材料。
I think I asked my father if I could have some two-by-fours to make the deck with.
我想我问过父亲我是否可以用一些二乘四的东西来制作牌组。
And then, of course, he got involved, deciding that he was going to take it up a level.
然后，当然，他参与其中，并决定将其提升到一个水平。
You know, signal flags being done up, and portholes in doors, and hand-painted numbers.
你知道，信号旗被挂起来，门上有舷窗，还有手绘的数字。
And I had a gorgeous wood desk, and I had like my own phone, and landlines were run from the house to the ship.
我有一张华丽的木桌，还有我自己的电话，固定电话从房子到船上。
What?
什么？
Like a real phone?
就像真正的手机一样？
Elizabeth Yeah.
伊丽莎白 是的。
Yeah.
是的。
What?
什么？
Elizabeth I'm telling you, I had a really nice office there.
伊丽莎白，我告诉你，我在那里有一个非常好的办公室。
As the months went on, the ship grew more and more elaborate.
几个月过去了，这艘船变得越来越精致。
Their dad started using masonite and plywood.
他们的父亲开始使用纤维石和胶合板。
He put in a wheelhouse and an engine room.
他建造了驾驶室和机舱。
Eventually the ship was about 24 feet long and painted battleship gray.
最终这艘船长约 24 英尺，漆成战舰灰色。
A lot of the magic was in the accessories.
很多魔力都在于配件。
He outfitted the ship with guns that shot ping-pong balls and missiles made from spray-painted deodorant sticks.
他为这艘船配备了可以发射乒乓球的枪和由喷漆除臭棒制成的导弹。
He picked up life jackets at a Navy surplus store.
他在一家海军剩余品商店买了救生衣。
He installed an intercom.
他安装了对讲机。
It was a long, hollow tube that let you talk from the wheelhouse to the engine room in the back.
这是一根长长的空心管，可以让你从驾驶室到后面的机舱进行通话。
He attached the motor from a blender to a wall.
他将搅拌机的电机安装在墙上。
Its purpose?
它的目的是什么？
Engine noise.
发动机噪音。
The kids could hit different buttons speeds on it to make it sound like they were moving faster.
孩子们可以按不同速度的按钮，让听起来他们移动得更快。
What made their dad so good at make-believe is how real he made it.
他们的父亲之所以如此擅长虚构，是因为他把它变得如此真实。
One of the girls, Marion, liked eating breakfast on the ship's deck.
其中一个女孩玛丽恩喜欢在船的甲板上吃早餐。
Her dad would bring out an old coffee percolator.
她爸爸会拿出一个旧咖啡过滤器。
And put in the smokestack.
并放入烟囱。
And then you would just see the steam kind of rising up out of that.
然后你就会看到蒸汽从中升起。
And then we had these little Kool-Aid mugs that had been remade into our coffee cups.
然后我们有了这些小酷爱杯，它们被重新制成了我们的咖啡杯。
And he really would let us have coffee.
他真的会让我们喝咖啡。
Like we would just sit around, like in our work gear, getting ready for the day and admiring our ship, with the real-looking steam coming up.
就像我们只是坐着，就像穿着我们的工作装备，为这一天做好准备，欣赏我们的船，看着真实的蒸汽升起。
The kids would play on the USS Elizabeth City all summer long, sometimes on 24-hour shifts.
整个夏天，孩子们都会在伊丽莎白城号航空母舰上玩耍，有时甚至 24 小时轮班。
Think of what genius parenting that is if you have a dozen kids.
想象一下，如果你有十几个孩子，那是多么天才的养育方式。
When summer comes, you want to keep them busy, engage them.
当夏天到来时，你想让他们忙碌起来，吸引他们。
In any given summer, pretty much any kid who wasn't a teenager yet would be on the ship.
在任何一个夏天，几乎所有未成年的孩子都会在船上。
Again, here's Marion.
再说一次，这是马里昂。
We didn't have many toys.
我们没有很多玩具。
I mean, they were-- at the end of it all, there were 12 of us.
我的意思是，他们——最终，我们有 12 个人。
But like, then in our backyard, we had the most elaborate and amazing toy any child could ever have, that wasn't just something-- you know, it wasn't like a video game you played for a little bit.
但是就像，在我们的后院，我们拥有任何孩子都可以拥有的最精致、最神奇的玩具，这不仅仅是某种东西——你知道，它不像你玩过一会儿的电子游戏。
It was like years and years and years of playing on, kind of learning on, sleeping outside.
就像年复一年地玩耍，学习，睡在外面。
It was just such a crazy, like amazing, ya know, experience.
这真是一次疯狂的、令人惊奇的经历。
There was a whole world their dad created around the USS Elizabeth City -- a history and a mission statement, and a strict set of rules and responsibilities.
他们的父亲在伊丽莎白城号周围创造了一个完整的世界——一段历史和一份使命宣言，以及一套严格的规则和责任。
His wife Joan typed up a pamphlet just like the ones the Navy handed out when their ships were at port.
他的妻子琼打印了一本小册子，就像海军的船只靠港时分发的小册子一样。
In this case, the port was their neighborhood, Park Ridge.
在这种情况下，港口就是他们的邻居帕克里奇。
Joan read it for me.
琼读给我听。
"The USS Elizabeth City is one of the most modern classes of driveway gunboats.
“伊丽莎白城号航空母舰是最现代化的车道炮艇之一。
Many of our officers and enlisted personnel make their homes in this community.
我们的许多军官和士兵都在这个社区安家。
Our ship's mission is to defend Park Ridge's strategic Continental Divide against surprise naval attack."
我们舰艇的任务是保卫帕克岭的战略大陆分水岭免受海上突然袭击。”
Is that what you guys told the kids?
你们也是这么跟孩子们说的吗？
This is your mission?
这就是你的使命？
Right.
对。
Right, definitely, yes.
对，肯定，是的。
And of course, Park Ridge is totally surrounded by land.
当然，Park Ridge 完全被陆地包围。
The last paragraph was a message for the crew, his 12 kids.
最后一段是写给船员、他的 12 个孩子的信息。
" Elizabeth City is a small ship and we can get along best by looking out for each other.
“伊丽莎白城是一艘小船，我们只有互相照顾才能相处得最好。
Glad to have you with us.
很高兴你和我们在一起。
We think you're going to like it here.
我们认为您会喜欢这里的。
Welcome aboard."
欢迎登机。”
Their dad, Jim, had been in the Navy for about a decade.
他们的父亲吉姆已经在海军服役了大约十年。
In his 30s, he married Joan.
30多岁时，他与琼结婚。
They eventually ran an architecture firm together out of their basement.
他们最终在地下室共同经营了一家建筑公司。
They didn't make much money.
他们没赚多少钱。
They spent most of their time designing youth centers in low-income neighborhoods throughout Chicago.
他们大部分时间都在芝加哥低收入社区设计青年中心。
But Jim didn't just design these.
但吉姆不仅仅设计了这些。
For more than 40 years, he also helped maintain them, would deal with emergency calls in the middle of the night if a pipe broke.
40多年来，他还帮助维护它们，如果管道破裂，他会在半夜处理紧急电话。
And when he'd go to make repairs, he'd bring the kids to help.
当他去修理时，他会带孩子们来帮忙。
He was idealistic, and also incredibly practical.
他非常理想主义，但也非常实际。
He died in 2011 and never talked to his wife and kids about what he'd hoped they'd get out of the ship.
他于 2011 年去世，从未与妻子和孩子谈论过他希望他们能从船上得到什么。
But they do know that he enjoyed playing in that world just as much as they did.
但他们确实知道他和他们一样喜欢在那个世界里玩耍。
Every kid I spoke to described his incredible imagination-- not just with the ship.
我采访过的每个孩子都描述了他令人难以置信的想象力——不仅仅是关于这艘船。
There were the stories he'd make up, the Fisher Price city he built in their basement, a trading post he ran from a window in his office.
他编造了一些故事，他在地下室建造了费雪城，他从办公室的窗户里经营了一个贸易站。
The kids could get trinkets in exchange for trash they cleaned out of their yard.
孩子们可以用从院子里清理出来的垃圾换取小饰品。
He printed fake money once, and they played the stock market for three months.
他印了一次假钞，他们就玩了三个月的股市。
He made stuff fun.
他让事情变得有趣。
They all talked about that.
他们都谈到了这一点。
But he also had an intense work ethic and thrived on discipline and teamwork.
但他也有强烈的职业道德，并在纪律和团队合作中茁壮成长。
He wanted his kids to be productive and constantly told them--
他希望他的孩子们富有成效，并不断告诉他们——
If you have time to lean, you have time to clean.
如果你有时间倾斜，你就有时间打扫。
He wanted you to be working.
他希望你去工作。
Again, this is Marion.
再说一次，这是马里昂。
She told me her dad assigned each of them a specific job.
她告诉我她父亲给他们每个人分配了一份特定的工作。
For example, she was the hospital corpsman, which meant she was responsible for any injuries on the ship.
例如，她是医院的医护人员，这意味着她要对船上的任何伤害负责。
I had like a real first aid kit.
我有一个真正的急救箱。
I had like a little station there.
我在那里有一个小车站。
I mean, it was full of, like, my fake shots and stuff.
我的意思是，里面充满了我的假镜头之类的东西。
But I had like real alcohol, real Band-Aids, real ACE bandage, you know, stuff like that.
但我有真正的酒精、真正的创可贴、真正的 ACE 绷带，你知道，诸如此类的东西。
What's the worst injury you had to treat?
你必须治疗的最严重的伤是什么？
Like people always got splinters because it was wood.
就像人们总是会因为它是木头而受到碎片一样。
And all my siblings had a service record, or--
我所有的兄弟姐妹都有服役记录，或者——
Real medical records.
真实的医疗记录。
And that was another job of mine, is that whenever the kids went to real medical appointments with the doctor, my mom would come back with, you know, that you get a sheet from the doctor or whatever if you had a shot and stuff.
那是我的另一项工作，就是每当孩子们去看医生时，我妈妈都会回来，你知道，如果你打了针，你会从医生那里得到一张单子或其他什么东西。
And my mom would give them, to me, and my job was to hole-punch them and to put them in their proper service jacket.
我妈妈会把它们交给我，我的工作就是给它们打孔，然后把它们穿上合适的军装夹克。
And once in a while, my dad would say, will you check and see if anyone's behind on their appointments or whatever?
有时候，我爸爸会说，你能检查一下是否有人迟到了约会之类的吗？
And you know, I mean, I took that very seriously.
你知道，我的意思是，我非常认真地对待这一点。
Like I was very proud that I had that job.
就像我为自己拥有那份工作感到非常自豪一样。
I had this responsibility to make sure all the kids were going to the doctor on time.
我有责任确保所有孩子都按时去看医生。
Other kids on the ship had positions like gunner's mate, radio men, master-at-arms, and culinary specialist.
船上的其他孩子担任过炮手副手、无线电员、武装大师和烹饪专家等职位。
And each of these involve some paperwork, real US Navy paperwork, forms that their dad saved from his time in the service or picked up from local recruitment offices.
每一项都涉及一些文书工作，真正的美国海军文书，他们的父亲在服役期间保存或从当地征兵办公室领取的表格。
Elizabeth, who was the chief storekeeper, says she spent many hours putting her signature on supply requisitions.
担任首席仓库管理员的伊丽莎白说，她花了很多时间在供应申请上签名。
If someone was supposed to be doing some sort of job and they needed specific tools, or they were supposed to cook something and needed oatmeal or coriander--
如果有人应该做某种工作并且他们需要特定的工具，或者他们应该做饭并且需要燕麦片或香菜——
Or coriander?
还是香菜？
Elizabeth In the kitchen-- yeah.
伊丽莎白 在厨房里——是的。
Yeah.
是的。
[BOTH LAUGH] They would have to come to me, maybe with a work order.
[两人都笑]他们必须来找我，也许还带着工作订单。
It was a lot of-- lot of initials.
这是很多——很多缩写。
It was just more about routine and paperwork.
这只是更多关于日常工作和文书工作。
So what made this fun?
那么是什么让这变得有趣呢？
I think that's the thing I'm trying to figure out.
我想这就是我正在努力弄清楚的事情。
Because it sounds like it's a lot of work.
因为听起来工作量很大。
Um, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
I don't know that it always was fun.
我不知道这总是很有趣。
You know, when we were on there, my memory is it was somewhere between work and play.
你知道，当我们在那里时，我的记忆是它介于工作和娱乐之间。
I think I liked that I had a defined character and everything.
我想我喜欢我有明确的性格和一切。
Grumpy old storekeeper, and you know.
脾气暴躁的老店主，你知道的。
So did your dad coach you?
那你爸爸有辅导过你吗？
Elizabeth Of course.
伊丽莎白 当然。
Of course.
当然。
It's just like a little snarly, and not enough coffee.
就好像有点吵闹，而且咖啡还不够。
No, I'm not going to get you that right now.
不，我现在不会给你这个。
You're going to have to wait, or fill out the right paperwork.
您将不得不等待，或填写正确的文件。
Or you know, I don't know.
或者你知道，我不知道。
Just because that's what my father, he just remembered that every chief storekeeper that he had ever known had always had this, like, little stub of a cigar hanging out of the corner of his mouth, as he snarled at you about something.
正因为我父亲就是这样，他才记得，他所认识的每一位首席店主在向你咆哮某些事情时，嘴角总是挂着一根雪茄烟头。
And so he felt that it was very important that I always had this little ashtray on my desk with just a smoldering little cigar on it.
所以他觉得我桌上总是放着这个小烟灰缸，上面放着一支闷烧的小雪茄，这一点非常重要。
Of course, with so many kids, there were arguments and disagreements on the ship.
当然，有这么多孩子，船上也有争吵和分歧。
And so to deal with that, their dad created a chain of command, an entire rank structure.
为了解决这个问题，他们的父亲创建了一个指挥系统，一个完整的等级结构。
He gave himself one of the lower positions, the boatswain's mate.
他给自己安排了一个较低的职位，即水手长的副官。
That way the kids would have to work out problems on their own.
这样孩子们就必须自己解决问题。
The highest-ranking position, commanding officer, that went to his oldest child, Jane.
最高级别的职位是指挥官，由他的大孩子简担任。
She was in charge of posting a plan of the day.
她负责发布当天的计划。
That included chores, meals, and watch times for her brothers and sisters.
这包括做家务、吃饭，以及照顾她的兄弟姐妹。
If they all did their jobs, their dad would take them for doughnuts at the end of the week.
如果他们都完成了自己的工作，他们的爸爸会在周末带他们去吃甜甜圈。
Any kid who slacked off would ruin it for everyone.
任何一个偷懒的孩子都会毁了所有人。
And if Jane caught them slacking off at their jobs, as commanding officer she had the power to punish.
如果简发现他们在工作中偷懒，作为指挥官，她有权惩罚他们。
Like she could make you guard garbage cans as a time-out.
就像她可以让你看守垃圾桶作为暂停一样。
I was seen as bossy and as always telling them what to do.
我被认为是专横的，总是告诉他们该做什么。
And, you know, it didn't matter that that was my job, that that was what I had been assigned to do.
而且，你知道，那是我的工作，那是我被指派去做的事情并不重要。
So like, let me give you an example of that.
所以，让我给你举一个例子。
If I was in charge and I didn't think your brass belt buckle was shined adequately, that might be a source of tension.
如果我负责，而我认为你的黄铜皮带扣没有足够闪亮，那可能会成为紧张的根源。
But if you're going to wear a uniform, then you better-- you better wear it.
但如果你要穿制服，那么你最好穿它。
So I mean, like in some way, it created a little bit of a separation between you and the rest of them.
所以我的意思是，就像在某种程度上，它在你和其他人之间造成了一点分离。
I mean, of course.
我的意思是，当然。
It's only-- it's only natural.
这只是——这只是自然的。
I mean, but what's which actually kind of funny is that I was never allowed, not one single time, to play, because that was fraternization.
我的意思是，但实际上有点有趣的是，我从来没有被允许，一次也没有，因为那是兄弟情谊。
What?
什么？
Jane I was an officer.
简 我是一名军官。
They were enlisted.
他们被征召入伍了。
I was not allowed to have that relationship with them, that I could sit around the table with them and play cards.
我不被允许与他们建立那种可以和他们坐在桌子旁打牌的关系。
When you came back in the house, were you allowed to play together?
回到家后，可以一起玩吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
哦，是啊，是啊，是啊。
Yeah.
是的。
No, it was just-- it was just on the ship.
不，只是——只是在船上。
You know, that was kind of the cost I paid for the role that I had.
你知道，这就是我为这个角色付出的代价。
I asked them all, why did they keep playing along with this?
我问他们，为什么还要玩这个？
So many rules.
这么多规则。
So much cleaning.
这么多清洁工作。
They said, you're a little kid, so it is fun.
他们说，你是个小孩子，所以很有趣。
Like a treehouse and a fort and dress-up, all rolled into one.
就像树屋、堡垒和装扮，全部合而为一。
And they said when you're a little kid, you want to do with the older kids are doing, whatever it is.
他们说，当你还是个小孩子的时候，你想要和大孩子一起做的事情，无论是什么。
And then you had your dad there, always adding these extra details to keep them excited, like sudden deployment orders.
然后你的父亲就在那里，总是添加这些额外的细节来让他们兴奋，比如突然的部署命令。
The USS Elizabeth City was on wheels and went on trips.
伊丽莎白城号航空母舰带着轮子开始旅行。
Joe remembers being called on a mission to a church parking lot down the street.
乔记得他被叫去街边的一个教堂停车场执行任务。
And we would push this 24-foot-long ship out into a relatively busy street, Cumberland Avenue, and we would make corners.
我们会把这艘 24 英尺长的船推到一条相对繁忙的街道——坎伯兰大道上，然后拐个弯。
And one of us would be in the wheelhouse, actually steering the wheel of the ship.
我们中的一个人会在驾驶室里，实际驾驶船的方向盘。
And we'd do drills.
我们会进行演习。
We'd do target practice, if you will, with a little submarine.
如果你愿意的话，我们会用一艘小型潜艇进行打靶练习。
This is back in the '80s.
这已经是 80 年代的事了。
The Cold War was a threat.
冷战是一种威胁。
So we'd have a little Soviet-era submarine that would be out there, moving around.
所以我们会有一艘苏联时代的小型潜艇在那里移动。
And we'd have "man overboard" drills, and everyone would throw on their life preservers.
我们会进行“人员落水”演习，每个人都会戴上救生衣。
And I mean, even though I can clearly see asphalt sitting there, somewhere in my mind, you know, it seemed like it was real.
我的意思是，尽管我可以清楚地看到沥青就在那里，在我脑海中的某个地方，你知道，它看起来就像是真实的。
They lived so fully in the world of the ship, their lives were so devoted to it, that the kids never really stopped to think about how someone from the outside world might view it.
他们在船上的世界中生活得如此充实，他们的生活如此投入，以至于孩子们从未真正停下来思考过外面世界的人会如何看待它。
Marion says she was eight before she first invited a friend aboard the USS Elizabeth City .
马里昂说，在她第一次邀请朋友登上伊丽莎白城号航空母舰之前，她才八岁。
I was out there with my other brothers and sisters, and she just kept kind of rolling her eyes, being like, what are we doing?
我和其他兄弟姐妹在外面，她只是不停地翻白眼，说，我们在做什么？
And she wanted to go inside and play Barbies, and this was kind of like weird.
她想进去玩芭比娃娃，这有点奇怪。
I think that was when I first realized, like, not everyone had ships in their backyards.
我想那是我第一次意识到，并不是每个人的后院都有船。
And so I mean, did you just not acknowledge that you had a ship in your backyard after that?
所以我的意思是，在那之后你是否不承认你的后院有一艘船？
Yeah, I think for the rest of grammar school, I just-- it was like, they just need to know.
是的，我认为对于文法学校的其他学生来说，我只是——就像，他们只需要知道。
Its on a need-to-know basis.
它是基于需要知道的基础上的。
All the Steinfels kids, they eventually reached an age-- usually around middle school-- when they started wanting to spend more time off the ship than on it.
所有斯坦菲尔家的孩子，最终都到了一个年龄——通常是中学左右——开始想要在船上度过更多的时间，而不是在船上。
And their dad, he created a system to deal with that, too.
他们的父亲也创建了一个系统来处理这个问题。
Here's David, the 11th of the Steinfels' 12 kids.
这是大卫，斯坦菲尔夫妇 12 个孩子中的第 11 个。
If you wanted to take liberty, you'd have to fill out a yellow slip and then put where you were going.
如果你想自由，你就必须填写一张黄色单子，然后写上你要去的地方。
You had to put the time and date of when you were leaving and when you're coming back.
您必须输入您离开和返回的时间和日期。
And then you had to put who you're going to see, what you're doing, a number to reach you at, like, your Social Security number.
然后你必须输入你要见的人、你在做什么、联系你的号码，比如你的社会安全号码。
And then you'd have to get it signed off by the supervisor of the day.
然后你必须让当天的主管签字同意。
And then--
然后——
So the supervisor would be whoever was appointed.
因此，无论谁被任命，都将成为主管。
Then it would get posted.
然后它就会被发布。
And I don't think my father really ever had to step in, or-- I think that's one of the beauties of the system, is like, use the other siblings to keep everything in order.
我不认为我父亲真的需要介入，或者——我认为这是这个系统的优点之一，就像，利用其他兄弟姐妹来保持一切井然有序。
As the kids got older, they just stopped showing up on the ship to play.
随着孩子们长大，他们就不再出现在船上玩耍了。
Only one kid I spoke with formally requested a discharge.
只有一个与我交谈过的孩子正式要求出院。
She was 12.
她12岁。
I went to my dad and, you know, acting very seriously, told him that I'd thought about it, and I had decided that it just wasn't for me anymore.
我去找我爸爸，你知道，表现得很严肃，告诉他我已经考虑过了，我决定这不再适合我了。
This is Marion.
这是马里昂。
Marion He was just like, OK, that's interesting.
马里昂 他说，好吧，这很有趣。
And I remember getting in the mail, not too long after that, a big manila envelope, you know, to Hospital Corpsman Third Class Marion Kate.
我记得不久之后，我收到了一个大马尼拉信封，你知道，寄给医院三等兵玛丽昂·凯特。
And inside, there was a letter that said, unfortunately, because we had just entered the first Gulf War, that the President had said that no one can leave right now, that everyone's automatically re-enlisted.
里面有一封信，不幸的是，因为我们刚刚参加第一次海湾战争，总统说现在没有人可以离开，每个人都自动重新入伍。
This was an actual real order that came down for actual sailors during Operation Desert Storm.
这是沙漠风暴行动期间为真正的水手下达的真实命令。
Probably not intended for middle school kids in Illinois.
可能不适合伊利诺伊州的中学生。
And so I wasn't going to be able to leave then.
所以我当时无法离开。
And I mean, I was just like, you know, kind of like, OK, he got me, I guess.
我的意思是，我就像，你知道，有点像，好吧，我猜他抓住了我。
I mean, there's just no getting out of it.
我的意思是，根本无法摆脱它。
Jane, the oldest, is 41 now.
简（Jane）是年龄最大的，今年 41 岁。
The youngest, Samuel, is 20.
最小的塞缪尔今年 20 岁。
And you can't help but notice how much the Steinfels kids' lives seem to be shaped by their time on the ship.
你会情不自禁地注意到斯坦费尔斯孩子们的生活似乎受到了他们在船上的时光的影响。
Elizabeth, the master chief storekeeper, she now runs her own clothing store.
伊丽莎白是一位首席店主，她现在经营着自己的服装店。
John, the culinary specialist, he manages the kitchen at a Chicago restaurant.
约翰是一位烹饪专家，他在芝加哥一家餐厅管理厨房。
Samuel's training to be an officer at the Naval Academy right now.
塞缪尔现在正在海军学院接受军官培训。
Jane went there, too.
简也去了那里。
Four of the other boys, they ended up in the Marine Corps.
其他四个男孩最终加入了海军陆战队。
David enlisted right after high school.
大卫高中毕业后就入伍了。
He's been deployed to Asia and Yemen.
他已被派往亚洲和也门。
I think the ship was a very big part.
我认为这艘船是一个非常大的部分。
Because the one thing that I was good at, and I knew it because we did it as a child, was the military.
因为我擅长的一件事就是军事，而且我知道这一点是因为我们小时候就这样做过。
And when I went there, it was pretty easy for me.
当我去那里时，这对我来说很容易。
I mean, all these other people were struggling, especially Marine boot camp.
我的意思是，所有其他人都在挣扎，尤其是海军陆战队新兵训练营。
It's a-- it's a legendary zone of horror and pain and whatnot, but I was pretty used to it.
这是一个充满恐怖和痛苦之类的传奇区域，但我已经习惯了。
I mean, it wasn't obviously as intense at home as it was there.
我的意思是，家里的气氛显然不像那里那么激烈。
But a lot of the rules and everything, like organization, attention to detail, it was all pretty much mirrored.
但很多规则和一切，比如组织、对细节的关注，都几乎是镜像的。
When you actually got on a real ship, how similar was it to your play ship?
当你真正登上一艘真正的船时，它与你的游戏船有多相似？
[CHUCKLES] A lot of it was surprisingly the same.
[笑] 其中很多内容都令人惊讶地相同。
I mean, I could still, from my bed, reach out and touch three different people.
我的意思是，我仍然可以从床上伸出手来触摸三个不同的人。
And you could hear people breathing in their beds.
你可以听到人们在床上的呼吸声。
Jim Steinfels was 71 when he died from cancer four years ago.
四年前，吉姆·斯坦费尔斯 (Jim Steinfels) 因癌症去世，享年 71 岁。
He wanted his kids to be competent and industrious and serve something bigger than themselves, lessons they say they learned on the ship.
他希望他的孩子们能干、勤奋，为比自己更伟大的事业服务，他们说这是在船上学到的教训。
Right after he died, Marion said they couldn't stop thinking about how he would have hated anyone wasting a good day of work.
在他去世后，马里昂说他们不停地想，他会多么讨厌任何人浪费一天的好工作。
My mom, one thing that she kind of struggled with was having his funeral during the day.
我的妈妈，她有点挣扎的一件事是在白天举行他的葬礼。
She thought that he would be mortified that people had stopped working to go to his funeral.
她认为他会因为人们停止工作去参加他的葬礼而感到羞愧。
So she thought about having it in the evening.
所以她想到了晚上去。
And my dad actually built his own coffin.
我父亲实际上建造了自己的棺材。
I mean, he always made-- you know, I mean, he made the ship.
我的意思是，他总是制造——你知道，我的意思是，他制造了这艘船。
He was really good at making things.
他真的很擅长做东西。
I just miss being on the ship.
我只是怀念在船上的时光。
I mean, and I think that we all wouldn't have the relationships we have.
我的意思是，我认为我们都不会拥有我们所拥有的关系。
I mean, I really think it was kind of the basis for our closeness and our kind of like camaraderie.
我的意思是，我真的认为这是我们亲密关系和友情的基础。
The ship their dad build is still around.
他们父亲建造的那艘船仍然存在。
It's in the garage at their mom's house.
它在他们妈妈家的车库里。
And every once in a while, when the kids are home visiting, they'll pull it back into their yard.
每隔一段时间，当孩子们回家探望时，他们会把它拉回他们的院子里。
Sometimes they'll climb back on it, though it's tough to get through the portholes and doors now.
有时他们会爬回去，尽管现在很难通过舷窗和门。
And then they'll stand on the deck and watch their own children play on it.
然后他们会站在甲板上看着自己的孩子在上面玩耍。
Miki Meek is one of producers of our show.
米基·米克是我们节目的制作人之一。
If you're curious, pictures of the USS Elizabeth City are at our website, thisamericanlife.org.
如果您好奇，我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上有伊丽莎白城号航空母舰的照片。
[MUSIC - BOB DYLAN, "WHEN THE SHIP COMES IN"]
[音乐 - 鲍勃·迪伦，“船进港时”]
Coming up, pretending to be a normal person can be the most difficult make-believe of all.
接下来，假装自己是一个正常人可能是最困难的伪装。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show, "Land of Make-Believe," we have stories of people constructing worlds that are not real, some more convincingly and charmingly than others.
今天的节目《虚构之地》讲述了人们构建不真实世界的故事，其中一些世界比其他世界更令人信服、更迷人。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, The Lyin' Kings.
第二幕，说谎的国王。
So this next story is about a whole bunch of people who are building an elaborate world of make-believe for their jobs, and they fail.
所以下一个故事是关于一群人为了自己的工作而构建一个精心设计的虚构世界，但他们失败了。
They totally fail.
他们彻底失败了。
This is not a spoiler.
这不是剧透。
They don't come close to getting this right.
他们还远远没有做到这一点。
I'm telling you up front.
我预先告诉你。
Jonathan Menjivar explains what happened.
乔纳森·门吉瓦 (Jonathan Menjivar) 解释了发生的事情。
A warning, if you're listening to the podcast or online version of our program-- there's cursing in the story that we beeped out on the radio.
警告，如果您正在收听我们节目的播客或在线版本，我们在广播中发出的故事中存在咒骂。
But on the internet we have unbeeped it.
但在互联网上我们已经取消了它。
If you're listening with kids or you just prefer a beeped show, as always, you can find that at our website.
如果您和孩子们一起聆听，或者您只是像往常一样喜欢听嘟嘟声的节目，您可以在我们的网站上找到它。
OK, here's Jonathan.
好的，这是乔纳森。
This story starts with a lie between friends.
这个故事要从朋友之间的一个谎言开始。
One of those friends was a young woman named Lyric R.
其中一位朋友是一位名叫 Lyric R. 的年轻女子。
Cabral.
卡布拉尔。
She lived in Harlem and had this neighbor, a guy in his 50s named Saeed Torres.
她住在哈林区，有一个邻居，一个 50 多岁的男人，名叫赛义德·托雷斯 (Saeed Torres)。
Lyric's apartment was on the third floor of a brownstone.
莱瑞克的公寓位于一栋褐砂石建筑的三楼。
Saeed lived on the first.
赛义德住在第一个。
And they hung out together all the time.
他们总是一起出去玩。
They're both black and Muslim.
他们都是黑人和穆斯林。
And Lyric found Saeed intriguing, in part because he was an actual Black Panther.
莱里克发现赛义德很有趣，部分原因是他是真正的黑豹。
Lyric had grown up interested in the Black Panther Party but had never actually met a member before.
莱瑞克从小就对黑豹党很感兴趣，但之前从未真正见过黑豹党成员。
She was a student at the time, learning to do documentary work.
当时她还是一名学生，正在学习拍摄纪录片。
Saeed had told Lyric that he was going to be moving to the Bronx soon.
赛义德告诉莱瑞克，他很快就要搬到布朗克斯。
And then one day she came home from school.
然后有一天她放学回家。
I usually stopped in his apartment to say hello, just because it was before I went upstairs, I would pass his apartment.
我通常会在他的公寓停下来打招呼，只是因为在我上楼之前，我会经过他的公寓。
And when I looked in the apartment, all of his things were gone.
当我查看公寓时，他所有的东西都不见了。
There was no furniture.
没有家具。
There was no indication that anyone had ever lived there.
没有迹象表明有人曾住在那里。
And I assumed that he had probably just moved to the Bronx.
我猜想他可能刚刚搬到布朗克斯。
But I thought it weird, because I was like, you know, it was too hasty.
但我觉得这很奇怪，因为我想，你知道，这太仓促了。
He would have told me.
他会告诉我的。
And while I'm staring at the empty apartment, I get a call from him.
当我盯着空荡荡的公寓时，我接到了他的电话。
He sounds incredibly frantic.
他听起来非常疯狂。
I had never heard that tone in his voice.
我从来没有在他的声音中听到过这种语气。
He sounded like almost someone was on the other end of the phone with a gun to his head.
他听起来就像是电话那头有人用枪指着他的头。
And he said, if anyone comes looking for me, if anyone asks you any information about me, don't give it to them.
他说，如果有人来找我，如果有人问你任何关于我的信息，不要告诉他们。
And you find out who they are for me.
你会发现他们对我来说是谁。
And I said, well-- you know, I was pretty petrified based on the way he sounded.
我说，嗯——你知道，根据他的语气，我被吓呆了。
He sounded incredibly nervous.
他听起来非常紧张。
And so I said, well, where are you?
所以我说，好吧，你在哪里？
What's wrong?
怎么了？
And he's like, well, I can't really tell you, but I'm in South Carolina right now.
他说，好吧，我真的不能告诉你，但我现在在南卡罗来纳州。
I have something to tell you.
我有话要告诉你。
You should come down here and visit.
你应该来这里参观一下。
Which she did.
她做到了。
And Saeed told her that all these years she'd known him, all these years she'd seen him getting dressed in nice suits and going to work, that was all a cover.
赛义德告诉她，这些年来她认识他，这些年来她看到他穿着漂亮的西装去上班，这都是掩饰。
Because Saeed was actually an informant for the FBI.
因为赛义德实际上是FBI的线人。
She says, at the time, she didn't know much about how FBI investigations work.
她说，当时她不太了解联邦调查局的调查工作是如何进行的。
So it was a very naive back-and-forth, but it was very braggadocious on his part.
所以这是一种非常天真的来回，但对他来说却非常吹牛。
He outlined all that he had done, sort of, for the FBI.
他概述了他为联邦调查局所做的一切。
And when I asked him, why are you telling me this?
当我问他，你为什么要告诉我这些？
He goes, well, because you don't have to fact-check me.
他走了，好吧，因为你不必对我进行事实核查。
You were there.
你当时就在那里。
"There" in that first floor apartment in Harlem.
“那里”在哈莱姆区的一楼公寓里。
Saeed told Lyric that the FBI had paid his rent while he investigated a man named Tariq Shah.
赛义德告诉利瑞克，在他调查一个名叫塔里克·沙阿的男子时，联邦调查局已经支付了他的房租。
And Lyric knew exactly who that was, because Saeed had introduced her to Tariq.
莱瑞克清楚地知道那人是谁，因为赛义德把她介绍给了塔里克。
He'd come to Saeed's apartment several times when she was there.
当她在的时候，他来过赛义德的公寓好几次。
Saeed also told Lyric that his whole apartment was wired.
赛义德还告诉利瑞克，他的整个公寓都装有电线。
I was pissed.
我很生气。
You know, I mean definitely, this was not like-- I didn't receive this information with a smile.
你知道，我的意思是，这绝对不是——我没有微笑着收到这个信息。
I definitely felt betrayed.
我确实感到被背叛了。
Because to me, that meant that I had an FBI file.
因为对我来说，这意味着我有联邦调查局的档案。
I mean, and that was a question I had for him.
我的意思是，这是我问他的问题。
I was like, well, since I was in the apartment with Tariq, I was on camera, correct?
我当时想，好吧，自从我和塔里克在公寓里以来，我就出现在镜头前，对吧？
And to date, I have not gotten a good answer, both from the FBI-- sort of FOIA'd that material.
到目前为止，我还没有从联邦调查局得到一个好的答案——有点像《信息自由法》那样的材料。
That FBI has told me they do not have anything in their possession.
联邦调查局告诉我他们没有任何东西。
And Saeed himself says, oh, no, I would never record you.
赛义德本人说，哦，不，我永远不会记录你。
I would never press Play when you were there.
当你在那里时我永远不会按播放键。
I would never press Record.
我永远不会按录音键。
But I'm not quite too confident in that.
但我对此不太有信心。
Lyric says that there in South Carolina, Saeed handed her a folder full of newspaper articles about cases he'd worked on.
莱里克说，在南卡罗来纳州，赛义德递给她一个文件夹，里面装满了有关他处理过的案件的报纸文章。
He'd actually highlighted the parts in the articles that talked about his role, places where he's identified just as "government informant."
他实际上强调了文章中谈论他的角色的部分，以及他被称为“政府线人”的地方。
And Lyric believed him, believed that he'd been an informant, that he'd fled to South Carolina because he was afraid for his safety after the FBI arrested Tariq Shah.
莱里克相信他，相信他是一名线人，他逃到南卡罗来纳州是因为联邦调查局逮捕塔里克·沙阿后他担心自己的安全。
Lyric didn't know exactly why Saeed was telling her all of this, but he mentioned he'd seen other people turning the work they'd done with the FBI into bestselling books.
莱里克并不确切知道为什么赛义德要告诉她这一切，但他提到他看到其他人将他们与联邦调查局所做的工作变成了畅销书。
Why couldn't he do something similar?
为什么他不能做类似的事情呢？
And that's where things stood, for nearly a decade.
这就是近十年来的情况。
Lyric kept in touch with Saeed and started pursuing a career as a documentary filmmaker.
莱里克与赛义德保持联系，并开始从事纪录片制片人的职业生涯。
She met another filmmaker named David Felix Sutcliffe.
她遇到了另一位电影制片人，名叫大卫·菲利克斯·萨克利夫。
And David told her that he'd been fantasizing about making a film that would follow an FBI informant.
大卫告诉她，他一直幻想制作一部追踪联邦调查局线人的电影。
And she said, funny you should say, because I-- I know one.
她说，你应该说很有趣，因为我——我认识一个。
That's David, by the way.
顺便说一下，那是大卫。
He and Lyric reached out to Saeed, and he told them that he was just starting to work on a new case in Pittsburgh.
他和莱里克联系了赛义德，他告诉他们他刚刚开始在匹兹堡处理一个新案件。
And, you know, for reasons that weren't totally clear to us at the time, he said, yeah, sure, let's do this.
而且，你知道，出于当时我们并不完全清楚的原因，他说，是的，当然，让我们这样做。
Let's-- you guys can film me.
让我们——你们可以给我录像。
So what's going on?
那么到底是怎么回事呢？
You didn't come down here with no cameras and all that.
你来这里并不是没有相机之类的。
I asked you that earlier.
我之前就问过你了。
No, you did not-- Jonathan Menjivar Sure, they could film.
不，你没有——乔纳森·门吉瓦 当然，他们可以拍摄。
But Saeed often got annoyed when they showed up.
但当他们出现时，赛义德常常感到恼火。
It was unpredictable when he'd be OK with it.
无法预测他什么时候能接受。
I said don't come down here with no goddamn cameras and stuff.
我说过不要带着该死的相机之类的东西来这里。
Hello?
你好？
I told you I didn't want my face in this shit.
我告诉过你我不想让我的脸陷入这种困境。
You'd be surprised who knows me.
你会惊讶谁认识我。
Everybody in Brooklyn know me.
布鲁克林的每个人都认识我。
And they know me in Harlem, too.
他们在哈林区也认识我。
They know my face.
他们认识我的脸。
I might not even make no fucking independent film, motherfuckers come after me.
我什至可能连他妈的独立电影都拍不了，混蛋们都来追我。
That clip is from the documentary Lyric and David ended up making.
该片段来自 Lyric 和 David 最终制作的纪录片。
It's called (T)ERROR .
它被称为 (T)ERROR 。
It follows Saeed as he's working this investigation in Pittsburgh.
影片讲述了赛义德在匹兹堡进行调查的过程。
And in case this isn't clear, I want to point out how incredibly rare this footage is.
如果还不清楚，我想指出这个镜头是多么罕见。
Because normally when you hear a story about an FBI counterterrorism investigation, it's pieced together after the fact, using court records and whatever interviews reporters can get with people who will talk.
因为通常情况下，当你听到有关联邦调查局反恐调查的报道时，它是在事后利用法庭记录和记者能与愿意说话的人进行的任何采访拼凑而成的。
Here, Lyric and David were following someone who usually doesn't talk in the first place, an FBI informant.
在这里，莱里克和大卫正在跟踪一个通常不说话的人，一名联邦调查局线人。
They were following him in real time, while he was actively working a case.
当他正在积极处理案件时，他们正在实时跟踪他。
So they didn't have to rely on Saeed's memory to document what happened.
所以他们不必依赖赛义德的记忆来记录发生的事情。
They were there.
他们就在那里。
They hung out with him in his FBI safe house.
他们和他一起在他的联邦调查局安全屋里闲逛。
He showed them pictures he'd pinned on the wall of targets he said the FBI was interested in.
他向他们展示了他钉在墙上的照片，上面写着他说联邦调查局感兴趣的目标。
As best as anyone can tell, the FBI never agreed to this.
众所周知，联邦调查局从未同意这一点。
And apparently they never noticed that Lyric and David were filming all this time.
显然他们从来没有注意到莱瑞克和大卫一直在拍摄。
I mean, why would they have let the investigation continue, if they knew?
我的意思是，如果他们知道的话，为什么还要让调查继续进行呢？
Saeed's primary target, the POI-- Person of Interest-- in Pittsburgh was a man Khalifa Ali al-Akili.
赛义德的主要目标，匹兹堡的 POI（嫌疑人）是哈利法·阿里·阿基利（Khalifa Ali al-Akili）。
Khalifa's a white guy, a convert to Islam.
哈利法是一名白人，皈依了伊斯兰教。
Here's a video he posted to YouTube.
这是他发布到 YouTube 的视频。
He's got a beard, a white turban.
他留着胡子，戴着白色头巾。
My name is Khalifa al-Akili, and I am from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the United States of America.
我叫 Khalifa al-Akili，来自美国宾夕法尼亚州匹兹堡。
[SPEAKING ARABIC].
[说阿拉伯语]。
The belly of the beast.
野兽的腹部。
La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulallah.
La ilaha illallah 穆罕默德·拉苏拉拉。
He would engage in sort of-- not inflammatory, but I would say controversial First Amendment-protected speech.
他会发表某种——不是煽动性的，但我想说的是有争议的、受第一修正案保护的言论。
Lyric says Khalifa did a lot of this on Facebook.
Lyric 说 Khalifa 在 Facebook 上做了很多这样的事情。
He would post things such as, you know, 2,000 people died on 9/11.
他会发布诸如 9/11 事件造成 2,000 人死亡之类的信息。
However, X number of Muslims have been killed in the wars on Iraq and Afghanistan.
然而，有X名穆斯林在伊拉克和阿富汗战争中丧生。
You know, who is the real enemy here?
你知道，这里真正的敌人是谁？
Things like this.
诸如此类的事情。
He would also post videos like, here's Osama bin Laden reading the Quran.
他还会发布视频，例如，这是奥萨马·本·拉登正在阅读《古兰经》。
There's many Quran recitations you could post on your public Facebook profile after 9/11.
9/11 之后，您可以在您的 Facebook 公共个人资料上发布许多古兰经背诵。
You know, he also had another post that said the Taliban are the perfect wearers of the turban.
要知道，他还有另一篇帖子说塔利班是头巾的完美佩戴者。
Saeed's job was to get close to Khalifa, see if he was doing more than just talking.
赛义德的工作是接近哈利法，看看他是否不仅仅只是说说而已。
And the FBI gave him a cover.
联邦调查局给了他一个掩护。
They told him to say he was working for the Red Cross.
他们让他说他在为红十字会工作。
They set him up in a safe house, in an apartment one block from Khalifa, and he went by a different name.
他们把他安置在距离哈利法一个街区的一间公寓里的一个安全屋里，他的名字也不同。
And just so this doesn't get confusing, from this point on in the story, we're going to refer to Saeed by that name.
为了避免混淆，从故事的这一点开始，我们将用这个名字来指代赛义德。
That name was Sharif.
这个名字就是谢里夫。
So Sharif-- again, that's Saeed undercover-- he started going to the same mosque as Khalifa.
所以谢里夫——再说一遍，那是卧底赛义德——他开始和哈利法去同一座清真寺。
And then he actually met him.
然后他就真的遇见了他。
Sharif bumped into Khalifa on the street one day and introduced himself.
有一天，谢里夫在街上遇见了哈利法，并做了自我介绍。
Here's how he described Khalifa in the film.
以下是他在影片中描述哈利法的方式。
The way I see him running around here now, it would make any motherfucker suspicious.
我现在看到他在这里跑来跑去，任何一个混蛋都会产生怀疑。
He's walking around looking like a Taliban.
他走路的样子就像塔利班一样。
Khalifa had grown up Protestant and converted to Islam when he was 14.
哈利法从小就信奉新教，14 岁时皈依伊斯兰教。
In 2001, he went to prison for selling drugs.
2001年，他因贩卖毒品入狱。
It was a felony.
这是重罪。
Over the years, Khalifa had other charges, for having a gun without a license, and assault.
多年来，哈利法还因无证持枪和袭击等罪名受到其他指控。
And Khalifa was public about his conversion.
哈利法公开了他的皈依。
He'd proselytize.
他会传教。
Neighbors in his apartment building say that he'd slip Islamic brochures under their doors and take down Christmas cards they'd hung up.
他公寓楼的邻居说，他会把伊斯兰小册子塞到他们的门下，并取下他们挂的圣诞贺卡。
Khalifa married a Somali woman.
哈利法娶了一名索马里妇女。
They had a kid.
他们有一个孩子。
And they were getting by on welfare and money Khalifa made selling books.
他们靠福利和哈利法卖书赚来的钱度日。
Some of them were books on Islam that he got from a sheik in South Africa.
其中一些是他从南非一位酋长那里得到的有关伊斯兰教的书籍。
And he'd even started some kind of religious school.
他甚至创办了某种宗教学校。
In 2006, he started holding classes in his apartment for local Somali children.
2006年，他开始在自己的公寓里为索马里当地儿童上课。
Again, here's David.
大卫又来了。
And they called it al-Shabaab, which in Arabic means, "the youth." But it's also the name of the al-Qaeda-affiliated terrorist organization in Somalia.
他们称之为青年党（al-Shabaab），在阿拉伯语中的意思是“青年”。但这也是索马里基地组织附属恐怖组织的名称。
He wasn't aware of that at the time when he named the school.
当他为学校命名时，他并没有意识到这一点。
He was not?
他不是吗？
David Felix Sutcliffe But-- he was not.
大卫·菲利克斯·萨克利夫 但是——他不是。
He did not know that that was the name of a terrorist organization.
他不知道那是一个恐怖组织的名字。
People mentioned it to him pretty quickly afterwards and said, you know, that's probably not the best name for your school, and it's probably not a great idea to have, like, business cards that say Khalifa al-Akili, Al-Shabaab.
人们很快就向他提到了这一点，并说，你知道，这可能不是你学校的最佳名称，而且拥有诸如 Khalifa al-Akili、Al-Shabaab 之类的名片可能不是一个好主意。
But he was kind of defiant and said, well, it means what it means.
但他有点挑衅地说，好吧，这就是它的意思。
And if they misinterpret it or they think it means something else, then that's their problem.
如果他们误解了它或者认为它意味着其他东西，那就是他们的问题。
Yeah, he wasn't trying to hide anything.
是的，他并不想隐瞒什么。
No. I mean, he drove around town in a car that said Al-Shabaab Islamic Institute.
不，我的意思是，他开着一辆写着青年党伊斯兰研究所的车在城里转悠。
Like, he picked up students in this vehicle.
比如，他用这辆车接学生。
Like on the side?
比如侧面？
What do you mean, it said it on the car?
车上这么说的，什么意思？
Oh, we'll send you a Myspace picture.
哦，我们会向您发送一张 Myspace 图片。
He literally-- like there's a picture of him posing by the vehicle with a child inside, and it says Al-Shabaab.
他确实——就像有一张他在车旁摆姿势的照片，里面有一个孩子，上面写着青年党。
Like a big magnetic sign that he'd kind of gotten made and slapped on the side of a minivan.
就像一个巨大的磁性标志，他被制作出来并贴在一辆小型货车的侧面。
Over the seven months David and Lyric were following Sharif through his investigation of Khalifa, they'd check in with him every other day or so, filming whenever they could-- in his safe house, on the street, while he was on the phone with his FBI handlers.
在七个月的时间里，大卫和莱里克一直跟踪谢里夫对哈利法进行调查，他们每隔一天左右就会与他联系一次，只要有可能就进行拍摄——在他的安全屋里，在街上，当他与联邦调查局处理人员通电话时。
Yeah, what's up, Todd Exactly.
是啊，怎么了，托德 没错。
I don't have bay'ah to this masjid, and I don't have bay'ah to the imam here, either.
我不向这座清真寺拜拜，也不向这里的伊玛目拜拜。
And most people, you have bay'ah to the imam.
大多数人都会向伊玛目拜拜。
That way you can move around with them.
这样你就可以和他们一起走动。
I don't have it.
我没有。
It's such an intimate view of an informant's job.
这是对线人工作的亲密观察。
And what we see is how much of a counterterrorism investigation-- at least this case-- is really just someone trying very hard to make friends with a total stranger.
我们看到的是，反恐调查——至少在这起案件中——实际上只是一个人非常努力地与一个完全陌生的人交朋友。
So Sharif goes to the mosque, hoping to bump into Khalifa.
于是谢里夫去了清真寺，希望能碰见哈利法。
He asks Khalifa out for coffee, offers him rides.
他邀请哈利法出去喝咖啡，并邀请他搭车。
And most of the time, Khalifa just ignores him.
大多数时候，哈利法只是无视他。
Sharif's over-eagerness in all of this is a little hard to watch.
谢里夫对这一切的过度渴望让人有点难以察觉。
He's like the Ned Flanders of FBI stings.
他就像联邦调查局刺杀事件中的内德·弗兰德斯。
He's constantly texting Khalifa.
他经常给哈利法发短信。
For example, months into the investigation, Sharif sent Khalifa this text.
例如，调查进行几个月后，谢里夫向哈利法发送了这条短信。
"As-salaam alaikum, Brother K.
“愿您安息，K 弟兄。
What's up?
怎么了？
Can you assist me in setting up laptops/Facebook?
您能帮我设置笔记本电脑/Facebook 吗？
Inshallah." Here's Lyric.
因安拉。”这里是抒情诗。
You know, he's not supposed to know how to use Facebook at his age, and I think it was a-- the FBI made that suggestion for Sharif to ask Khalifa to help him set up his Facebook page as a way for Sharif to endear himself to Khalifa, in the sense of like, oh, I'm not knowledgeable in this area.
你知道，他在他这个年纪不应该知道如何使用 Facebook，我认为联邦调查局向谢里夫提出建议，要求哈利法帮助他建立他的 Facebook 页面，作为谢里夫讨好哈利法的一种方式，从某种意义上说，哦，我在这方面不了解。
Brother, can you please help me?
兄弟，你能帮帮我吗？
Khalifa did not help his Muslim brother.
哈利法没有帮助他的穆斯林兄弟。
In fact, after Sharif tried to friend Khalifa several times over months, Khalifa blocked him.
事实上，在谢里夫几个月来多次尝试与哈利法加好友后，哈利法屏蔽了他。
Sharif then sent Khalifa a text that said, "Why didn't you answer my request?
谢里夫随后给哈利法发了一条短信，内容是：“你为什么不回应我的请求？
Since you blocked me, you have to request it from me." Khalifa texted back, "It's not that serious, bro.
既然你屏蔽了我，那你就得向我提出要求。”哈利法回复短信说：“兄弟，事情没那么严重。
LOL."
哈哈。”
It's hard to see how the FBI thought this was ever supposed to work.
很难看出联邦调查局认为这应该如何发挥作用。
Sharif was a lot older than Khalifa.
谢里夫比哈利法年长很多。
His days as a revolutionary with the Black Panthers were decades ago, and not exactly relevant to a much younger white convert.
他作为黑豹党革命者的日子已经是几十年前的事了，与年轻得多的白人皈依者并不完全相关。
Sharif smoked pot, dressed in street clothes.
谢里夫抽着大麻，穿着便装。
Khalifa proselytized and wore traditional Islamic garb.
哈利法传教并穿着传统的伊斯兰服装。
Lyric and David say Sharif was angry that the FBI hadn't done enough to make him seem believable.
莱里克和大卫说，谢里夫很生气，因为联邦调查局没有采取足够的措施让他看起来可信。
He was really frustrated that the FBI didn't have a cover for him.
他对联邦调查局没有为他提供掩护感到非常沮丧。
You know, he said, if I had been a businessman, I could have used that as an entryway and say, oh, Khalifa, you want to set up a shop.
你知道，他说，如果我是一名商人，我可以用它作为入口并说，哦，哈利法，你想开一家商店。
And Khalifa did want to set up a shop, I think, a breakfast cafe for people to go to after morning prayer.
我认为哈利法确实想开一家商店，一家供人们晨祷后去的早餐咖啡馆。
And Sharif would say, like, if I had a businessman cover, you know, I could use that as a way to kind of like to keep the conversation going and eventually get to a point where we're talking about money, and you know, what are you going to do for money?
谢里夫会说，如果我有一个商人封面，你知道，我可以用它作为一种方式来保持对话继续下去，并最终达到我们谈论金钱的地步，你知道，你要为钱做什么？
If I do this for you, what would you do for me?
如果我为你做这件事，你会为我做什么？
There just wasn't like a specific foothold.
只是没有特定的立足点。
There wasn't like anything specifically related to Sharif's cover that would initiate an organic conversation about these issues.
没有任何与谢里夫的封面特别相关的东西可以引发关于这些问题的有机对话。
From what I can tell, it seems to come out of left field every single time.
据我所知，它似乎每次都来自左外野。
For example, one day, as Sharif explains in the film, he was talking with Khalifa, and the classic holy war conversation-starter, camping, came up.
例如，有一天，正如谢里夫在电影中解释的那样，他正在与哈利法交谈，并且出现了经典的圣战对话开头“露营”。
That was my key opening right there.
那是我的钥匙打开的地方。
The door opened up for me to make a suggestion now.
现在我可以提出建议了。
I said, oh, that's cool, man.
我说，哦，那太酷了，伙计。
We could all go camping.
我们都可以去露营。
I said, you know, why don't we just go a little further?
我说，你知道，我们为什么不走得更远一点呢？
We could train, man, like we do in the military.
我们可以训练，伙计，就像我们在军队里那样。
I said, brother-- 'cause he wanted to go and fight for the Muslim State.
我说，兄弟——因为他想去为穆斯林国家而战。
He said, I gotta consult my sheikh.
他说，我得咨询我的酋长。
I said, see, that's what's wrong with you, brother.
我说，你看，这就是你的问题所在，兄弟。
You brothers always talk that jihad stuff, but when somebody gives you the opportunity to make a move to fight for the Islam, y'all are not gonna fight for the Islam.
你们兄弟总是谈论圣战的事情，但是当有人给你们机会为伊斯兰教而战时，你们都不会为伊斯兰教而战。
Y'all talk that talk, but you won't walk the walk.
你们都是说说而已，但你们不会付诸行动。
Sharif was supposed to gather evidence, record his conversations for FBI analysis.
谢里夫应该收集证据，记录他的谈话以供联邦调查局分析。
But when he did manage to speak to Khalifa, he couldn't get Khalifa to say anything that Khalifa hadn't already revealed himself on his Facebook page.
但当他设法与哈利法交谈时，他无法让哈利法说出任何哈利法尚未在他的 Facebook 页面上透露的内容。
So he tried other methods that are familiar, if you've ever followed these kinds of cases.
所以他尝试了其他熟悉的方法，如果你曾经关注过这类案例的话。
He asked Khalifa to buy him a gun.
他要求哈利法给他买一把枪。
Sharif said that he needed protection from neighborhood kids who were selling drugs in front of his house.
谢里夫说，他需要保护自己免受在他家门前贩卖毒品的邻居孩子的伤害。
Khalifa didn't bite on that, either.
哈利法也不同意这一点。
But the FBI wanted Sharif to keep going.
但联邦调查局希望谢里夫继续前进。
He would text the FBI to tell them what he was up to.
他会给联邦调查局发短信，告诉他们他在做什么。
"Heading to Friday prayer at al-Noor Mosque.
“前往努尔清真寺参加周五祈祷。
No word from POI."
POI 没有任何消息。”
The FBI would text back, "POI just walked in.
FBI 会回短信说：“POI 刚刚走进来。
Turn recorder on before you go in.
进去之前先打开录音机。
Talk to him a little.
和他聊一会儿。
Get a feel."
感受一下。”
Terrorists who commit these acts and those who harbor them.
实施这些行为的恐怖分子以及窝藏这些行为的人。
One Sunday night, three months into the investigation, something happened that shows just how hard it is to appear authentic in a situation that's completely fake.
调查三个月后的一个周日晚上，发生的一件事表明，在完全虚假的情况下表现得真实是多么困难。
Lyric and David were filming Sharif in his apartment, watching TV, and Sharif sent this text.
莱里克和大卫正在他的公寓里拍摄谢里夫，同时看电视，谢里夫发送了这条短信。
"ASA." That's short for As-salaam alaikum.
“阿萨。”这是 As-salaam alaikum 的缩写。
"ASA, Brother K.
“ASA，K弟兄。
Check this movie on channel 370, Showtime." And then in parentheses, Sharif adds, " Homeland ."
请在 370 频道 Showtime 上观看这部电影。”谢里夫在括号中补充道：“国土。”
Khalifa texts back, "Hm, on Netflix?" Sharif responds, "No, Showtime.
Khalifa 回复道：“嗯，在 Netflix 上吗？”谢里夫回答说：“不，Showtime。
It's called Homeland .
这叫祖国。
Taliban Warrior." A 63-year-old former Black Panther with decades of experience as a government informant, and the thing he does is text his target about Homeland .
塔利班战士。”一名 63 岁的前黑豹成员，拥有数十年的政府线人经验，他所做的就是向目标发送有关国土安全的短信。
By late January 2012, four months into Sharif's involvement in the investigation, Khalifa still hadn't said or done anything that the FBI could use to charge him.
到 2012 年 1 月下旬，即谢里夫参与调查四个月后，哈利法仍然没有说过或做过任何联邦调查局可以用来指控他的事情。
No support for terrorism, no plans to engage in any illegal activity.
不支持恐怖主义，不计划从事任何非法活动。
And then one day, Lyric and David saw something on Khalifa's Facebook page that made it clear that this whole game was make-believe.
然后有一天，Lyric 和 David 在 Khalifa 的 Facebook 页面上看到一些内容，明确表明整个游戏都是虚构的。
This idea that Sharif was some kind of terrorist recruiter was crumbling.
认为谢里夫是某种恐怖分子招募者的想法正在崩溃。
Um, I believe his first sort of public inkling that something was wrong, he wrote, "The Feds must think I'm Willie Lump Lump.
嗯，我相信他第一次公开暗示出了问题，他写道，“联邦调查局一定认为我是威利·朗普·朗普。
They think they can send anyone to me." And we knew that that was an indirect reference to Sharif on the ground in Pittsburgh.
他们认为他们可以派任何人来找我。”我们知道这是间接提及匹兹堡的谢里夫。
And then on March 9, 2012, Khalifa posted the following, which he also sent out via email to a bunch of reporters.
然后在 2012 年 3 月 9 日，哈利法发布了以下内容，并通过电子邮件发送给了一群记者。
Quote, "Sometime in September or October of 2011, I met Saeed S.
引用：“2011 年 9 月或 10 月的某个时候，我遇到了 Saeed S.
Torres, who introduced himself to me as Sharif."
托雷斯向我介绍自己是谢里夫。”
And from there, he goes on to make a detailed discovery that Saeed Sharif Torres is in fact an FBI informant.
从那里，他继续详细发现赛义德·谢里夫·托雷斯实际上是联邦调查局的线人。
And the last line of his sort of lengthy discovery is, "And I encourage journalists to come and speak to me about these issues, because I would like to sue the FBI for their harassment of me."
他冗长的发现的最后一行是，“我鼓励记者来和我谈论这些问题，因为我想起诉联邦调查局骚扰我。”
All right, you ready?
好吧，你准备好了吗？
Khalifa Al-akili Yeah.
哈利法·阿基利 是的。
My name is Khalifa al-Akili from Pittsburgh.
我叫哈利法·阿基利，来自匹兹堡。
In 1991, I accepted Islam, took shahada.
1991年，我皈依了伊斯兰教，做了清真言。
So David and Lyric took him up on his offer.
于是大卫和莱瑞克接受了他的提议。
They went to his apartment, set up their cameras, and never mentioned that they'd been filming Sharif for months, even as Khalifa went on and on about him.
他们去了他的公寓，架起摄像机，从未提及他们已经拍摄谢里夫几个月了，尽管哈利法一直在谈论他。
He was always talking about the cause, the cause, the cause, you know?
他总是在谈论原因、原因、原因，你知道吗？
And some guys pray, other guys fight.
有些人祈祷，有些人战斗。
Khalifa tells them about the first time he met Sharif.
哈利法向他们讲述了他第一次见到谢里夫的情景。
He shows them texts on his phone.
他给他们看了手机上的短信。
Trying to see if there's anything of relevance.
试图看看是否有任何相关的东西。
Oh.
哦。
Wow, [ARABIC].
哇，[阿拉伯语]。
On December 18-- now, dig this.
12 月 18 日——现在，挖掘这个。
Now look.
现在看。
On December 18, "ASA," which means As-salaam alaikum.
12 月 18 日，“ASA”，意思是 As-salaam alaikum。
"Brother K, check this movie on channel 370, Showtime.
“K哥，你去370频道Showtime看看这部电影吧。
It's a series called Homeland ." About terrorists, right?
这是一个叫做《国土安全》的连续剧。”关于恐怖分子，对吗？
Which I actually did, and I actually enjoyed it.
我确实做到了，而且我真的很享受它。
I do, too.
我也是。
[LAUGHS] Khalifa Al-akili So but, yeah, he-- it was like, it was to help him talk about that topic.
[笑] Khalifa Al-akili 所以，但是，是的，他——这就像，这是为了帮助他谈论这个话题。
Then-- then like the next-- like he kept talking about this, even on-- this was on the 18th.
然后——然后就像下一次一样——就像他一直在谈论这件事，甚至一直在——这是18号。
On the 20th-- now who talks about a show that much?
20号——现在谁这么热衷于谈论一个节目？
On the 20th, he says, "As-salaam alaikum, Brother K, how you doing?
20 日，他说：“祝你好运，K 弟兄，你好吗？
How did you like the show Homeland ?
您觉得《国土安全》这部剧怎么样？
I'll talk tomorrow." [ARABIC].
我明天再谈。” [阿拉伯]。
So he, like, kept wanting to talk to me, even like when we got together or whatever.
所以他一直想和我说话，甚至当我们聚在一起或其他什么时候。
He wanted to-- so how did you like it?
他想要——那你觉得怎么样？
What do you think about it?
你对此有何看法？
What do you think about, you know, blowing this up?
你怎么想，你知道，把这件事炸毁吗？
And just talking crazy.
而且只是说疯话。
Let's take a moment here and just count up all the lies that are being told.
让我们花点时间来数一下所讲的所有谎言。
Lyric and David are lying to Khalifa, pretending they've never met Sharif.
莱里克和大卫对哈利法撒谎，假装他们从未见过谢里夫。
But now they're also lying to Sharif, because they don't tell him that they're interviewing Khalifa.
但现在他们也在对谢里夫撒谎，因为他们没有告诉他他们正在采访哈利法。
And of course, this whole story began with a lie.
当然，整个故事都是从一个谎言开始的。
Sharif heard from Lyric that he was working for the FBI.
谢里夫从莱里克那里听说他正在为联邦调查局工作。
And he hid from the FBI that he'd let Lyric and David film the investigation.
他向联邦调查局隐瞒了他让利里克和大卫拍摄调查过程的事实。
And Sharif lied to Khalifa about who he really was.
谢里夫向哈利法谎报了他的真实身份。
It's turned into this giant knot of lies.
它变成了这个巨大的谎言结。
Once Lyric and David had done their interviews with Khalifa, and gotten away without him figuring out who they really were, they had to keep the lies up.
一旦利里克和大卫完成了对哈利法的采访，并在他不知道他们到底是谁的情况下离开，他们就不得不继续撒谎。
Because lawyers had told them when they started making this film that they had to be careful to never do anything that got in the way of the investigation.
因为律师在开始拍摄这部电影时告诉他们，必须小心，不要做任何妨碍调查的事情。
If they did, they could be charged with tampering with an active investigation.
如果他们这样做，他们可能会被指控篡改正在进行的调查。
And tampering would include actions such as telling Sharif that we were in contact with Khalifa, and telling Khalifa that we had been filming with Sharif.
篡改包括告诉谢里夫我们正在与哈利法联系，以及告诉哈利法我们一直在与谢里夫一起拍摄等行为。
The FBI could say, but for the presence of these filmmakers, our case would have been successful.
联邦调查局可以说，如果没有这些电影制片人的存在，我们的案子就会成功。
But for the presence of these filmmakers, we would've secured this counterterrorism arrest.
如果没有这些电影制片人的存在，我们就能确保这次反恐逮捕。
In the end, what messed up the investigation wasn't the filmmakers or Sharif.
最终，搞砸调查的不是电影制片人，也不是谢里夫。
It was a mistake the FBI made, a mistake that proved to Khalifa without a doubt that the FBI was spying on him.
这是联邦调查局犯的一个错误，这个错误向哈利法毫无疑问地证明联邦调查局正在监视他。
While Sharif was floundering with Khalifa, the FBI sent in this other informant, Muhammad, to be the closer.
当谢里夫与哈利法陷入困境时，联邦调查局派了另一位线人穆罕默德来接近。
Here's a section of the film that explains all this.
这是电影中解释这一切的部分。
It alternates between Sharif and Khalifa telling what happened with Muhammad.
它在谢里夫和哈利法之间交替讲述穆罕默德的遭遇。
Here's Sharif.
这是谢里夫。
All I was supposed to do was introduce him to Khalifa.
我所要做的就是把他介绍给哈利法。
Just let him know, yo, I have an individual Muslim's coming in.
只要让他知道，哟，我有一个穆斯林要进来。
He's a recruiter for the Taliban, or he's a recruiter for the al-Qaeda.
他是塔利班的招募人员，或者是基地组织的招募人员。
You know, he's a good brother.
你知道，他是个好兄弟。
You know, maybe y'all should meet.
你知道，也许你们都应该见面。
Short and simple.
简短而简单。
Before I could even introduce the fucking dude to the fucking POI, the motherfucker was jumping out my car already, just to meet him.
在我还没来得及把这该死的家伙介绍给该死的 POI 之前，那个混蛋就已经从我的车里跳出来了，只是为了见他。
I'm like, what the fuck?
我想，他妈的是什么？
The guy got out, and he came up to me, gave me the greeting of as-salaam alaikum, kissed me on both cheeks.
那家伙下了车，向我走来，向我致以诚挚的问候，并亲吻了我的双颊。
And I swear to you, when I walked away from that situation, I walked away feeling like I'd just played a part in some Hollywood terrorist movie, that I just met, like, the leader of some terrorist organization.
我向你发誓，当我离开那种情况时，我走开时感觉就像我刚刚在好莱坞恐怖电影中扮演了一个角色，我刚刚遇到了某个恐怖组织的领导人。
Actually, right there on the spot, he wanted to go have some coffee or sit down with me.
事实上，他当时就想去喝杯咖啡或者和我坐下来。
And I told him no, I still have to go visit my mother, and I'm actually on my way there.
我告诉他不行，我还要去看望我母亲，而且我正在去那里的路上。
I'm getting ready to catch a bus to go there.
我正准备乘公共汽车去那儿。
You know, I walked away.
你知道，我走开了。
He got back in the truck.
他回到卡车里。
It was so clear that I didn't want to meet these guys.
很明显我不想见到这些人。
Like, seriously.
就像，认真的。
I literally made up excuse after excuse after excuse.
我真的编了一个又一个借口。
The next morning, this guy, Muhammad, he was back in Khalifa's neighborhood.
第二天早上，这个人，穆罕默德，他回到了哈利法的附近。
And he wanted to know if Khalifa would go to McDonald's with him, have a cup of coffee.
他想知道哈利法是否会和他一起去麦当劳，喝杯咖啡。
Khalifa took the filmmakers to that McDonald's.
哈利法带着电影制片人去了那家麦当劳。
The morning that we all came in here, we actually sat at this first booth right here, and that's whenever he began to talk about his people being involved in jihad and whatnot, and fighting.
我们大家来到这里的那天早上，我们实际上坐在了这里的第一个摊位上，每当他开始谈论他的人民参与圣战和诸如此类的战斗时。
And this was the location that we sat down and had the coffee with him.
这就是我们坐下来和他一起喝咖啡的地方。
So we exchanged numbers, and actually, that morning he drove me home.
所以我们交换了电话号码，实际上，那天早上他开车送我回家。
After that, I didn't hear anything from him.
此后，我再也没有听到他的任何消息。
But now Khalifa had Muhammad's phone number.
但现在哈利法有了穆罕默德的电话号码。
Again, David and Lyric.
再次，大卫和莱里克。
It was written on a receipt, and he kind of tossed it in a drawer or in a closet, and didn't kind of think about it until a few weeks later, when he, I guess, was cleaning his house, and saw the receipt and the number, and was like, oh, yeah, let me follow up on this.
它写在一张收据上，他把它扔进抽屉或壁橱里，直到几周后，我猜他正在打扫房子，看到收据和号码，他才想起这件事，然后就想，哦，是的，让我跟进一下。
It began with area code 518, which is associated with Albany, New York.
它以区号 518 开头，与纽约州奥尔巴尼相关。
And he googled the number, and what came back to him, I believe the first result was a court transcript.
他用谷歌搜索了这个号码，我相信他得到的第一个结果是法庭笔录。
When he clicked on that court transcript, it said FBI informant, right next to the number.
当他点击法庭笔录时，号码旁边写着“联邦调查局线人”。
And that number was listed in the US Southern District court transcript from a terrorism trial that happened in 2010, and Khalifa googled this number in 2012.
这个数字列在美国南区法院 2010 年恐怖主义审判的笔录中，哈利法在 2012 年用谷歌搜索了这个数字。
And so he's looking at a two-year-old transcript that is part of the public record that lists this telephone number from Muhammad as belonging to FBI informant Shahed Hussain.
因此，他正在查看一份两年前的笔录，该笔录是公共记录的一部分，其中列出了穆罕默德的电话号码，属于联邦调查局线人沙赫德·侯赛因 (Shahed Hussain)。
Once Khalifa figured out that Muhammad was an informant, he started looking for proof that Sharif was, too.
一旦哈利法发现穆罕默德是线人，他就开始寻找谢里夫也是线人的证据。
And he found it, as he explains in the film.
正如他在电影中解释的那样，他找到了它。
Yeah, very, very easy.
是的，非常非常容易。
He left me alone in his truck one time.
有一次他把我一个人留在他的卡车里。
He went into the store.
他走进商店。
And I'm getting ready to show you the picture.
我正准备给你看照片。
And when he did that, there was a letter sitting on the dashboard from the welfare office.
当他这样做时，仪表板上放着一封来自福利办公室的信。
So I picked it up and I snapped a picture of it.
所以我把它捡起来并拍了一张照片。
Because I know he was FBI.
因为我知道他是 FBI。
And that's-- that's him right there, with his real name and his address.
那就是——他就在那里，有他的真名和地址。
Because I was-- you know, I was trying to cross my T's and dot my I's, wanting to know who this guy was.
因为我——你知道，我试图跨过我的“T”并点上我的“I”，想知道这个人是谁。
And his real name is a Saeed S.
他的真名是赛义德·S。
Torres.
托雷斯。
After Lyric and David filmed Khalifa telling this story, they had to go back to Sharif-- or was he back to being Saeed now?
在莱里克和大卫拍摄哈利法讲述这个故事后，他们必须回到谢里夫——或者说他现在又回到了赛义德身上？
Whatever the case, they couldn't tell him what they knew.
无论如何，他们不能告诉他他们所知道的事情。
You know, we could not say anything about Khalifa to Saeed.
你知道，我们不能向赛义德透露有关哈利法的任何事情。
When sort of Saeed would make these theories about him and say things about his personality, often, you know, we couldn't respond, even though we knew.
当赛义德提出这些关于他的理论并谈论他的个性时，你知道，我们常常无法回应，即使我们知道。
And Sharif often asked us-- which is information that we knew-- how Khalifa found out his identity.
谢里夫经常问我们——这是我们所知道的信息——哈利法是如何发现他的身份的。
Because Sharif was not checking Khalifa's Facebook, he was not privy to this whole discovery.
由于谢里夫没有查看哈利法的脸书，因此他并不了解整个发现。
The FBI did not tell them.
联邦调查局没有告诉他们。
No. Jonathan Menjivar That Khalifa had posted this?
不。 Jonathan Menjivar Khalifa 发布了此内容？
No. They did not.
不，他们没有。
David Felix Sutcliffe Not at first.
大卫·菲利克斯·萨克利夫 一开始不是。
They just told-- the FBI, in response to Khalifa's discovery, the FBI told Sharif, you need to get out of town now.
他们只是告诉联邦调查局，为了回应哈利法的发现，联邦调查局告诉谢里夫，你现在需要离开城镇。
They did not tell him why.
他们没有告诉他原因。
You all exposed me.
你们都暴露了我。
You all put me on the goddamn line and left me out there hanging to dry.
你们都把我放在该死的绳子上，然后把我留在外面晾干。
This is Sharif, who's now clearly been outed as an informant, talking on the phone with one of his FBI handlers.
这是谢里夫，他现在显然是一名线人，正在与他的一名联邦调查局官员通电话。
He's just found out that Muhammad blew their cover.
他刚刚发现穆罕默德暴露了他们的身份。
He's not happy about it.
他对此并不高兴。
Initially, when I did this contact with y'all, if I didn't feel right about something, I wouldn't go through it.
最初，当我与你们进行这种接触时，如果我对某件事感觉不对，我就不会经历它。
But yet y'all forced my hand to go through it.
但你们却强迫我的手穿过它。
Sharif complained to the filmmakers.
谢里夫向电影制片人抱怨。
He said he was fed up with the FBI and this entire investigation.
他说他厌倦了联邦调查局和整个调查。
And I told them, I said, I'm not here to entrap nobody.
我告诉他们，我说，我不是来诱骗任何人的。
They trying to make me force this dude into saying something to support terrorism.
他们试图让我强迫这个家伙说一些支持恐怖主义的话。
I said, the dude is not a fucking terrorist, man.
我说，这家伙他妈的不是恐怖分子。
He's not even a pseudo-terrorist.
他甚至不是一个伪恐怖分子。
He's nothing but an oxymoron.
他只不过是一个矛盾修辞者。
I said, what you all been doing for the last three years?
我说，这三年你们都在做什么？
Y'all ain't seen nothing?
你们什么都没看到吗？
If you all ain't seen nothing, what y'all expect me to see?
如果你们什么都没看到，你们希望我看到什么？
Still, the FBI continued to tell Sharif to keep up the ruse.
尽管如此，联邦调查局继续告诉谢里夫继续这个诡计。
First saved message, received March 9 at 4:50 PM.
第一条保存的消息于 3 月 9 日下午 4:50 收到。
Hey, it's Jay.
嘿，这是杰伊。
Jonathan Menjivar "Hey, it's Jay." This is one of Sharif's FBI handlers.
Jonathan Menjivar “嘿，我是杰伊。”这是谢里夫的联邦调查局官员之一。
He wants Sharif to send one last text, and here's what he wants it to say.
他希望谢里夫发最后一条短信，这就是他想要说的内容。
I don't know who you've been talking to or exactly what you've been saying about me, what got around.
我不知道你在和谁说话，也不知道你到底说了些什么关于我的事情，也不知道周围发生了什么。
People came to my work today and talked to me, and I can't have that.
今天人们来到我的工作场所并与我交谈，我不能接受。
He tells him not to mention the Feds or the police.
他告诉他不要提及联邦调查局或警察。
Then something like, you know, inshallah.
然后类似，你知道，安沙拉。
I'll see you around.
我会再见的。
And, um, change your number.
还有，嗯，改变你的电话号码。
That's what we want.
这就是我们想要的。
All right, man?
好吧，伙计？
Call me if you got any questions.
如果您有任何疑问，请给我打电话。
But you see what I'm saying?
但你明白我在说什么吗？
I'm heading home.
我要回家了。
And you see what they still asking me?
你看到他们还在问我什么吗？
In other words, their target had figured out that Muhammad and Sharif were both fake identities, both working for the FBI.
换句话说，他们的目标已经发现穆罕默德和谢里夫都是假身份，都为联邦调查局工作。
But Sharif was still being asked by the FBI to pretend like nothing had gone wrong.
但联邦调查局仍然要求谢里夫假装什么都没发生。
Sharif told Lyric that he's no longer an FBI informant, that they don't respond to his calls or texts.
谢里夫告诉 Lyric，他不再是联邦调查局的线人，他们不会回复他的电话或短信。
They've gone completely silent.
他们完全沉默了。
And Khalifa?
哈利法呢？
Well, Khalifa had planned to go public with everything-- everything he'd written in that Facebook post, everything he'd told David and Lyric.
嗯，哈利法本来计划公开一切——他在 Facebook 帖子中写的所有内容，他告诉大卫和 Lyric 的所有内容。
And he'd been in touch with lawyers at an advocacy group called Project Salaam that provides legal help for Muslims.
他还与一个名为“萨拉姆计划”的倡导组织的律师保持联系，该组织为穆斯林提供法律帮助。
Khalifa was going to go down to DC and be part of a press conference where he'd lay out the whole story.
哈利法将前往华盛顿参加新闻发布会，并在会上阐述整个故事。
The day before the press conference, David was supposed to meet him early to film him going to morning prayer.
新闻发布会的前一天，大卫本来应该早起与他见面，拍摄他去晨祷的镜头。
And I showed up outside of his house.
我出现在他家外面。
I pull around the corner, I notice all these black SUVs out front.
我把车停在拐角处，注意到前面全是黑色 SUV。
And you know, it's probably about 5:30 in the morning, and I knew exactly what was going on.
你知道，现在大概是早上 5:30 左右，我很清楚发生了什么事。
--And get that squared away.
——然后把它摆平。
Khalifa Al-akili The Prophet Muhammad, salla ilahu, he said, "Beware of the supplication of the person who is unjustly treated." This is wrong.
Khalifa Al-akili 先知穆罕默德，salla ilahu，他说：“当心那些受到不公正对待的人的恳求。”这是错误的。
I haven't done anything to anyone.
我没有对任何人做任何事。
Khalifa was in handcuffs, being arrested by the FBI.
哈利法戴着手铐，被联邦调查局逮捕。
Khalifa had met with his lawyer a few days earlier, who had said, you know, if they're going to come for you, it's going to be either late at night or early in the morning.
哈利法几天前会见了他的律师，律师说，你知道，如果他们要来找你，要么是深夜，要么是凌晨。
And so fortunately, I had the camera set up.
幸运的是，我已经架好了相机。
I just grabbed it and jumped out of the car.
我一把抓住它，就跳下了车。
Can you please try to get ahold of someone to help my wife, please?
你能试着找人来帮助我妻子吗？
Please, man.
拜托，伙计。
The FBI arrested Khalifa not for terrorism charges, but on a gun charge.
联邦调查局逮捕哈利法不是因为恐怖主义罪名，而是因为枪支罪名。
Khalifa, remember, was a felon.
请记住，哈利法是一名重罪犯。
He'd done time for a narcotics charge.
他因毒品指控已服刑。
So he wasn't legally supposed to possess a firearm.
所以他在法律上不应该拥有枪支。
But one day, years before, he went to a public firing range, borrowed a friend's gun, and shot at a target.
但几年前的一天，他去了一个公共射击场，借了朋友的枪，向一个目标射击。
His friend took a seven-second video and emailed it to Khalifa.
他的朋友拍摄了一段七秒的视频并通过电子邮件发送给哈利法。
And basically, that friend was called in to the grand jury, and basically, the friend had to admit, yes, I emailed this photo to Khalifa.
基本上，那个朋友被叫进了大陪审团，基本上，那个朋友不得不承认，是的，我把这张照片通过电子邮件发送给了哈利法。
Yes, this photo was taken at a shooting range, wherein Khalifa was holding a gun.
是的，这张照片是在射击场拍摄的，哈利法拿着枪。
And that's all the information they needed, in combination with that photo, led to confirmation that Khalifa was indeed a felon in possession of a firearm.
这就是他们需要的所有信息，结合那张照片，确认哈利法确实是一名持有枪支的重罪犯。
And he received a sentence of eight years.
他被判处八年徒刑。
And yet his public defender, who said she's handled thousands of gun cases throughout her career, she said she has never once seen someone being prosecuted based on a photograph of them at a gun range.
然而，他的公设辩护律师表示，她在整个职业生涯中处理过数千起枪支案件，但她说，她从未见过有人因在射击场的照片而被起诉。
You know, the vast majority of the time, it's someone who's caught in criminal activity.
你知道，绝大多数时候，都是陷入犯罪活动的人。
Khalifa had gone to the gun range in 2010, and he hadn't tried to hide it.
哈利法2010年就去过射击场，他并没有试图隐瞒这一点。
For a while, a picture of him holding the gun had been his Facebook profile picture.
有一段时间，他拿着枪的照片一直是他的 Facebook 个人资料照片。
Which means the FBI could've made this arrest almost two years earlier, long before they dragged Sharif into their investigation.
这意味着联邦调查局本可以在大约两年前逮捕谢里夫，早在他们将谢里夫拖入调查之前。
The FBI did not comment for Lyric and David's film.
联邦调查局没有对莱里克和大卫的电影发表评论。
And when we approached them, they provided this statement.
当我们联系他们时，他们提供了这样的声明。
"The FBI's use of undercover operations and informants across all criminal and national security programs is done in accordance with strict guidelines and in close coordination with the Department of Justice and the United States Attorney's offices."
“联邦调查局在所有刑事和国家安全项目中对卧底行动和线人的使用是按照严格的指导方针进行的，并与司法部和美国检察官办公室密切协调。”
The person I really wanted to talk to about this whole experience is Sharif, see what he thinks now that he's seen Lyric and David's film and he knows the truth from all sides.
我真正想和谢里夫谈论整个经历的人是谢里夫，看看他现在的想法，因为他看过莱里克和大卫的电影，并且他从各个方面了解了真相。
And it seemed like he'd be game to talk.
而且看起来他很愿意说话。
But at the last minute, he turned me down.
但在最后一刻，他拒绝了我。
Lyric says it's because I called him an informant in an email.
Lyric 说这是因为我在一封电子邮件中称他为线人。
He considers himself to be a civilian operative, Lyric told me.
利里克告诉我，他认为自己是一名文职特工。
He knows that some people look down on informants, and he was offended that I used the word.
他知道有些人瞧不起线人，我用这个词让他很生气。
Lyric says that when Sharif finally had a chance to watch the movie, he had one critique.
莱里克说，当谢里夫终于有机会观看这部电影时，他提出了批评。
"I look fucking depressed all the time," he said.
“我看起来一直都很沮丧，”他说。
For 23 years, Saeed Sharif Torres had been doing informant work, coming up with a new version of himself each time for each new target.
23 年来，赛义德·谢里夫·托雷斯一直从事情报工作，每次针对每个新目标都会提出一个新版本的自己。
He's a shell of what he once was, Lyric told me.
莱里克告诉我，他已经是一个空壳了。
Lying to people for a living can take a toll on you.
以欺骗他人为生可能会对您造成伤害。
Now he could finally see it.
现在他终于可以看到了。
Jonathan Menjivar is one of the producers of our program.
乔纳森·门吉瓦尔 (Jonathan Menjivar) 是我们节目的制作人之一。
The documentary (T)ERROR will be released in theaters on October 7.
纪录片《(T)ERROR》将于 10 月 7 日在影院上映。
You can find out more at terrordocumentary.org.
您可以访问terrordocumentary.org 了解更多信息。
[MUSIC - GEORGE JACKSON, "WILLIE LUMP LUMP"]
[音乐 - 乔治·杰克逊，“威利·隆隆”]
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Brian Reed with Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
图片来源：Ira Glass 我们今天的节目由 Brian Reed 与 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our editor is Joel Lovell.
我们的编辑是乔尔·洛弗尔。
Julie Snyder is our editorial consultant.
朱莉·斯奈德是我们的编辑顾问。
Production help from Lily Sullivan.
莉莉·沙利文 (Lily Sullivan) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our business operations manager.
Elise Bergerson 是我们的业务运营经理。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Kimberly Henderson is our office coordinator.
Kimberly Henderson 是我们的办公室协调员。
Research help today from Michelle Harris and Christopher Swetala.
米歇尔·哈里斯 (Michelle Harris) 和克里斯托弗·斯韦塔拉 (Christopher Swetala) 今天为研究提供了帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
George RR Martin's talk that you heard a little bit of at the top of the program took place at the 92nd Street Y in New York City.
您在节目顶部听到的乔治·R·R·马丁 (George RR Martin) 的演讲是在纽约市第 92 街 Y 进行的。
They have a video of that online.
他们在网上有一个视频。
Special thanks today to Christopher St. John, to Charlotte Street Films, to Trevor Aaronson, and Brad Torgersen, and Craig Zobel.
今天特别感谢克里斯托弗·圣约翰、夏洛特街电影公司、特雷弗·阿伦森、布拉德·托格森和克雷格·佐贝尔。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia, who this week took over management of Rhode Island Public Radio in Providence.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人托里·马拉蒂亚先生，他本周接管了普罗维登斯罗德岛公共广播电台的管理工作。
No kidding.
不开玩笑。
They are lucky to have them.
他们很幸运拥有它们。
I really, truly wanted to make a big deal out it here at the end of the program and congratulate him, but he would not let me.
我真的真的很想在节目结束时在这里大肆宣扬并祝贺他，但他不让我这么做。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
[MUSIC - GEORGE JACKSON, "WILLIE LUMP LUMP"]
[音乐 - 乔治·杰克逊，“威利·隆隆”]
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。