557: Birds & Bees - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #557 | March 6, 2020 557: Birds & Bees Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 557 集 | 2020 年 3 月 6 日 557：鸟类与蜜蜂 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Chana Joffe-Walt From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
序言 来自 WBEZ 芝加哥的 Chana Joffe-Walt，这就是《美国生活》。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
Ira is here, but I'm taking over today's show because we're talking about questions that I think are pretty fundamental to all of us at various points in our lives but are especially pressing for me these days.
艾拉在这里，但我接管今天的节目，因为我们正在讨论的问题我认为对我们所有人在生活的各个阶段都非常重要，但这些天对我来说尤其紧迫。
I'd like to explain with a brief example of a situation I find myself in all the time lately, with my two children, feeling deeply lost.
我想用一个简短的例子来解释我最近和我的两个孩子一起陷入的一种深深的失落感。
It's bath time.
洗澡时间到了。
Jacob, the older one, is running a restaurant.
年长的雅各布经营着一家餐馆。
He's giving out great prizes-- cups for grownups, and also animals.
他颁发了丰厚的奖品——给成年人的杯子，还有动物。
Animals.
动物。
Chana Joffe-Walt I want to hug an animal.
Chana Joffe-Walt 我想拥抱一只动物。
Jacob says, if someone in your family is Christian, you can get one of those.
雅各布说，如果你家里有人是基督徒，你就可以买其中一件。
But if somebody in your family is Christian, you're going to give those to them.
但如果你家里有人是基督徒，你就会把这些给他们。
No. Jacob Is your mom or your dad Christian?
不。 雅各布 你的妈妈或爸爸是基督徒吗？
No. Jacob Is your brother or your sister Christian?
不。 雅各布 你的兄弟或姐妹是基督徒吗？
No. They're all Jewish.
不，他们都是犹太人。
He snatches the animal and says, sorry.
他抓住了动物并说，对不起。
Wait.
等待。
I can't have any animals unless I'm Christian?
除非我是基督徒，否则我不能养任何动物？
Why can't I have the duck?
为什么我不能吃鸭子？
Jacob Because you're not Christian.
雅各布 因为你不是基督徒。
No Jews allowed, says my 3 and 1/2-year-old to my Jewish face.
犹太人不允许进入，我 3 又 1/2 岁的孩子当着我犹太人的面说。
So here is my question-- what am I supposed to say right here?
所以这是我的问题——我应该在这里说什么？
Because I should say something, right?
因为我应该说点什么，对吧？
I should say, that is not OK, because-- why?
我应该说，那不行，因为——为什么？
Because I said so?
因为我这么说？
Because you're a Jew?
因为你是犹太人？
Because Jews like your great grandparents were driven from their communities by exactly the mentality you've just expressed to me, my 3 and 1/2-year-old boy?
因为像你的曾祖父母这样的犹太人被赶出了他们的社区，正是你刚才向我（我 3 又 1/2 岁的儿子）表达的心态？
Or because we live in a majority Christian country, and I'm worried that I've clearly already failed to provide you with a positive relationship to Judaism?
或者因为我们生活在一个以基督教为主的国家，而我担心我显然已经未能为您提供与犹太教的积极关系？
Or is the best approach not to say anything?
或者什么都不说是最好的方法吗？
He's just having a bath.
他只是在洗澡。
I don't know, as you will hear.
我不知道，正如你会听到的那样。
But sweetie, it's not nice to say that somebody can't have something because they're not Christian.
但是亲爱的，说某人因为不是基督徒而不能拥有某些东西是不好的。
Well, you can't have the animals because you're not Christian.
好吧，你不能拥有动物，因为你不是基督徒。
That makes me feel sad, though, sweetie.
但这让我感到难过，亲爱的。
Well, many people who are Christian can have those animals.
嗯，很多基督徒都可以拥有这些动物。
In this restaurant, that's what the rules are.
在这家餐厅，这就是规矩。
That's not kind, though.
但这并不友善。
Jacob Yeah, but that's what the rules are at this restaurant.
雅各布：是的，但这就是这家餐厅的规矩。
Well, there's so many rules in this anti-Semitic restaurant.
嗯，这家反犹太餐厅有很多规矩。
He says, they're kind for some people, just not my kind of people.
他说，他们对某些人很友善，但不是我这种人。
The problem with talking to kids about anything that's actually important is that they don't know anything.
与孩子谈论任何真正重要的事情的问题是他们什么都不知道。
It's your job to teach them about all of the stuff that matters most, but you have nothing to work with.
你的工作是教他们所有最重要的东西，但你没有什么可做的。
They don't know religion.
他们不懂宗教。
They don't know history.
他们不了解历史。
They don't know how to maintain proper hygiene.
他们不知道如何保持适当的卫生。
Also a problem, they're little, and they have feelings.
还有一个问题，他们还小，他们有感情。
So you have to be careful about saying, well, let me tell you a story about a man named Adolf Hitler.
所以你必须小心地说，好吧，让我告诉你一个关于一个名叫阿道夫·希特勒的人的故事。
He would have liked the way you run your restaurant, by the way.
顺便说一句，他会喜欢你经营餐厅的方式。
We've all been on the kid side of this kind of conversation, where a grownup is fumbling through something that is clearly important.
在这种谈话中，我们都曾站在孩子一边，而大人却在摸索着一些显然很重要的事情。
The big one most of us remember is when someone told us about sex.
我们大多数人记得的一件大事就是有人告诉我们有关性的事情。
And on the adult side, whatever the question is-- what is sex, what is God, or what is ISIS, what does transgendered mean-- you know in that moment that what you say could really matter, could be the thing this person remembers and carries with them into adulthood, could shape the way they feel about their safety or their sexuality.
在成年人方面，无论问题是什么——什么是性、什么是上帝、什么是 ISIS、变性意味着什么——在那一刻你知道你所说的可能真的很重要，可能是这个人记住并随身携带到成年的东西，可能会塑造他们对自己的安全或性的感觉。
These conversations are how we make our mark on the next generation.
这些对话是我们在下一代身上留下印记的方式。
They're also, very often, how we learn how much we do not know.
很多时候，它们也是我们了解未知的方式。
And in today's show, we're going to listen in as people take on three of the most difficult things to talk about.
在今天的节目中，我们将聆听人们谈论三个最难谈论的事情。
We're going to hear teenagers talking very frankly to each other about sex, parents talking to their children about race, and kids talking to each other about death.
我们将听到青少年彼此坦诚地谈论性，父母与孩子谈论种族，孩子们彼此谈论死亡。
Today's show, "The Birds and the Bees." We've got Jonathan Goldstein, comedian W.
今天的节目是《鸟儿和蜜蜂》。我们有喜剧演员乔纳森·戈德斯坦 (Jonathan Goldstein)。
Kamau Bell.
卡毛·贝尔。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Some Like it Not (On the Neck) Chana Joffe-Walt Act One, "Some Like It Not, On the Neck." To begin, I should say, throughout this hour we're going to be talking about subject matter that can be difficult to discuss with children.
第一幕：有些人不喜欢（在脖子上） Chana Joffe-Walt 第一幕，“有些人不喜欢，在脖子上”。首先，我应该说，在这一个小时中，我们将讨论一些很难与孩子讨论的主题。
So if you've got kids listening, that's something to consider.
因此，如果你有孩子在听，这是需要考虑的事情。
Also in this next story, as Ira says, we will be acknowledging the existence of sex and talking a lot about our reluctance to speak of its existence.
同样在下一个故事中，正如艾拉所说，我们将承认性的存在，并大量谈论我们不愿谈论它的存在。
OK, let's start with the beginning.
好吧，让我们从头开始吧。
One way a lot of kids learn about the birds and bees is from each other.
许多孩子了解鸟类和蜜蜂的一种方式是互相交流。
A couple weeks ago, a seven-year-old named Moxie told me a friend of hers, this kid, Aaron, said something to her that bothered her on the bus.
几周前，一个名叫莫克西的七岁女孩告诉我，她的一个朋友，这个名叫亚伦的孩子，对她说了一些让她在公交车上感到困扰的事情。
He said, if he drew a picture of a baby on a piece of paper and put it in her belly, that would make a baby.
他说，如果他在一张纸上画一个婴儿的图画，放在她肚子里，那就是一个婴儿。
Moxie knew this was incorrect.
莫西知道这是不正确的。
That's why it bothered her.
这就是她烦恼的原因。
So a week later at the playground across the street from her house, she sat Aaron down.
所以一周后，在她家街对面的操场上，她让亚伦坐下来。
The situation about the paper not working thing.
关于纸张不起作用的情况。
What's that means?
那是什么意思？
Moxie On the bus a few days ago, you talked about paper and body and about a baby.
莫西几天前在公交车上，你谈到了纸和身体，还谈到了婴儿。
Oh, right, right, right.
哦，对了，对了，对了。
Moxie That was a silly plan.
莫西 那是个愚蠢的计划。
I'm sure it's going to work, but I don't know.
我确信它会起作用，但我不知道。
Uh, I'm not sure, because the baby can't survive, you see?
呃，我不确定，因为婴儿无法生存，你明白吗？
I'm just saying.
我只是说说而已。
Sorry.
对不起。
Moxie You need to make a sperm.
莫西 你需要制造精子。
And the sperm somehow has to get into my body.
精子必须以某种方式进入我的身体。
And that's how it works.
这就是它的工作原理。
I did not know that.
我不知道。
Moxie Well, now you do.
莫西 好吧，现在你知道了。
Sorry.
对不起。
Chana Joffe-Walt When it comes to sex, a lot of us learn the wrong thing first and the right thing later.
查纳·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt) 当谈到性时，我们很多人先学到了错误的东西，然后才学到了正确的东西。
You learn through a series of corrections.
你可以通过一系列的修正来学习。
You start to find out that half the things your brother told you were not right, that that scene in the movie is not realistic, that [?
你开始发现你哥哥告诉你的事情有一半都不对，电影里的那个场景不现实，那个[？
Sophia De Santos ?] was lying when she said she did that thing, because that thing is not possible.
索菲亚·德桑托斯？] 当她说她做了那件事时她在撒谎，因为那件事是不可能的。
That's basically our system.
这基本上就是我们的系统。
You learn things wrong, test them out, and hopefully get the real story from someone named Moxie.
你学到了错误的东西，测试它们，并希望从一个名叫莫克西的人那里得到真实的故事。
This begins on the playground and just continues all the way until you actually start having sex, and all the weird information that was not corrected begins to matter.
这从操场上开始，一直持续到你真正开始做爱，所有未纠正的奇怪信息开始变得重要。
What are you hoping they're going to cover?
您希望他们涵盖什么内容？
I hope they cover everything.
我希望他们涵盖一切。
Chana Joffe-Walt Deondre is in a classroom at Buffalo State with about 50 other people, mostly men, mostly his fraternity brothers.
查纳·乔菲-沃尔特·德翁德雷 (Chana Joffe-Walt Deondre) 和其他大约 50 人一起在布法罗州立大学的一间教室里，其中大部分是男性，其中大部分是他的兄弟会兄弟。
He's here for some sex ed.
他来这里是为了一些性教育。
I feel like some stuff people don't know.
我感觉有些东西人们不知道。
What don't you know?
你不知道什么？
Deondre I don't know.
德翁德尔我不知道。
That's a good question, you know.
这是个好问题，你知道。
This is a voluntary workshop about sexual assault and consent, on a Monday night.
这是一个关于性侵犯和同意的自愿研讨会，于周一晚上举行。
You'd think this event might not win out over, say, hitting up the Jamba Juice or staring at your van Gogh poster.
你可能会认为这个活动可能不会比喝 Jamba 果汁或盯着梵高海报更胜一筹。
But this room is packed.
但这个房间挤满了人。
The students are wide awake.
学生们都很清醒。
Knees are bouncing.
膝盖在弹跳。
Hands are shooting up in the air.
双手高高举起。
The instructor, Paula Madrigal, is talking about the importance of consent.
讲师 Paula Madrigal 正在谈论同意的重要性。
So consent is a verbal and enthusiastic yes, OK?
所以同意是口头和热情的，好吗？
Why is it enthusiastic?
为何如此热情？
Exactly.
确切地。
You want to do it.
你想这么做。
And sex should be fun, right?
性应该很有趣，对吧？
This kind of workshop was repeated in classrooms all across campus here and throughout the country in the last year.
去年，这种研讨会在校园和全国各地的教室里重复举办。
College administrators are panicked about sexual assault, as they should be.
大学管理人员对性侵犯感到恐慌，这是他们应该感到的。
So they're turning to this kind of education as the answer instead of mostly focusing on protecting women, things like rape whistles or travel with a buddy programs.
因此，他们转向这种教育作为答案，而不是主要关注保护女性，比如强奸口哨或与好友旅行计划。
They also want to teach men actual sentences to say.
他们还想教男人说实际的句子。
Do you like this?
你喜欢这个吗？
Can I kiss you?
我可以吻你吗？
But the students here are struggling with the basic premise.
但这里的学生却在基本前提上苦苦挣扎。
They have to learn to speak in this new way because if you don't you're a rapist?
他们必须学会用这种新的方式说话，因为如果你不这样做，你就是强奸犯？
Because it's just more virtuous?
因为这样更有道德？
They have questions right from the start.
他们从一开始就有疑问。
It's a continuous process of checking up, or checking in, either/or.
这是一个连续的检查或签入过程，要么/要么。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
That kind of messes up the mood.
那样的话心情就会很混乱。
I'm not trying to be funny, but if she says yes, and you know, she keeps saying, yeah, I've got to be like, hey, you sure?
我并不是想搞笑，但如果她答应了，你知道，她会一直说，是的，我必须说，嘿，你确定吗？
Are you really sure?
你真的确定吗？
We're about to do this.
我们正要做这件事。
Every 10 minutes.
每 10 分钟一班。
Student 3 I'm almost there.
学生 3 我快到了。
I'm about to go to the drawer to get the protection.
我正要去抽屉拿保护。
No, no. You're right.
不，不。你说得对。
You're right.
你说得对。
You're right.
你说得对。
And you're like, no. Student 3 No. Obviously, I'm going to stop.
而你却说，不。学生 3 不。显然，我要停下来了。
But the re-affirmation of yes over and over again, that kind of would mess up the mood.
但一遍又一遍地重申“是”，那样会搞乱心情。
So I feel like should there be a number of times that you should-- you know?
所以我觉得有很多时候你应该——你知道吗？
He presses them on this.
他向他们施压。
Two?
二？
Three?
三？
Seven?
七？
But that guy is overtaken by his fraternity brothers, who also have urgent questions.
但那个家伙被他的兄弟会兄弟超越了，他们也有紧急问题。
Does body language count as consent?
肢体语言算不算同意？
What if she said yes before you got into the room when you were both sober, like in a message on Twitter or something?
如果在你们都清醒的情况下，她在你们进入房间之前就答应了，比如在 Twitter 上发的消息或者其他什么，该怎么办？
How many beers is too much to have consent?
喝多少啤酒就太多而无法获得同意？
Again, please offer a number.
再次，请提供一个号码。
Like, you ever heard the term alcohol is liquid courage?
就像，你听说过“酒精是液体勇气”这个词吗？
Like, what if it's in the sense where it's like you were probably nervous, and you don't want to be nervous around her.
比如说，如果你可能很紧张，而你不想在她身边感到紧张，该怎么办？
So that's your liquid courage.
这就是你的液体勇气。
All right, I'm not going to be shaky when she come over.
好吧，当她过来时我不会动摇的。
You feel me?
你感觉到我了吗？
So you're not using it to get a yes.
所以你不是用它来获得肯定。
The next guy over interrupts.
下一个人打断了。
What if both parties are drunk?
如果双方都喝醉了怎么办？
And then across the room-- does the girl need to ask for consent?
然后房间的另一边——女孩需要征得同意吗？
Another student-- OK, what if we've been together for a year?
另一位学生——好吧，如果我们已经在一起一年了怎么办？
Paula Madrigal replies, you always need consent, even if you're a woman, even if you're a man sleeping with men, even if you're in a relationship, even if you have sex every day, even if you are in the middle sex.
保拉·马德里加尔（Paula Madrigal）回答说，你总是需要同意，即使你是女人，即使你是与男人睡觉的男人，即使你处于恋爱关系中，即使你每天都做爱，即使你处于中性。
Or if you guys are engaging in sexual activity, and maybe all of a sudden someone decides I want to try it rough, if you guys already started having sex, the other person can withdraw that consent.
或者，如果你们正在进行性活动，也许突然有人决定我想尝试一下，如果你们已经开始发生性行为，另一个人可以撤回同意。
OK?
好的？
So that's why it's active.
这就是它活跃的原因。
What if someone's like, I want to have another person here, now let's have three people?
如果有人说，我想要另一个人在这里，现在让我们三个人怎么办？
You're already having sex.
你已经在做爱了。
So if all of a sudden they're like, surprise, I have another person, you can be like, yeah, um, I didn't really sign up for that.
所以，如果他们突然说，惊讶，我有另一个人，你可能会说，是的，嗯，我并没有真正报名参加。
I'm out of here.
我要离开这里了
OK?
好的？
Does that make a little bit more sense when we talk about, you know, checking in and the active process?
当我们谈论签到和活动流程时，这是否更有意义？
Those are carefully chosen examples.
这些都是精心挑选的例子。
The vast majority of sexual assault on college campuses occur between two people who know each other.
大学校园里的绝大多数性侵犯发生在两个互相认识的人之间。
And there's not always physical force.
而且并不总是有体力。
So Paula is trying to say, take the picture you have in your mind of a serial predator rapist.
所以宝拉想说的是，想象一下你脑海中的连环掠食者强奸犯的照片。
Put it to the side for a moment.
把它放在一边一会儿。
Imagine instead a person who wakes up in the morning and wonders quietly to himself, she was into that, right?
想象一下，一个人早上醒来，静静地自言自语，她很喜欢这个，对吧？
Yeah, she was into that.
是的，她对此很感兴趣。
Imagine that person is wrong.
想象一下那个人是错的。
The workshop was supposed to be 45 minutes.
研讨会原定为 45 分钟。
It's been an hour.
已经一个小时了。
Paula Madrigal is trying to wrap up.
保拉·马德里加尔 (Paula Madrigal) 正试图结束这一切。
So how do you guys, then-- you guys are the experts.
那么你们怎么样——你们是专家。
How do you ask for consent?
如何征求同意？
It doesn't sound right.
听起来不对。
It's like you're messing up the whole mood when you ask that.
当你这么问的时候，就好像你把整个气氛都搞乱了。
It's been an hour, and the students in this room are still fixated on this question of the mood.
一个小时过去了，这间屋子里的学生们还盯着这个心情问题。
I don't remember there being a whole lot of mood when it came to sex in college.
我不记得大学里谈起性的时候有什么情绪。
I don't know, maybe you guys all had candle-lit dorm rooms.
我不知道，也许你们宿舍里都点着蜡烛。
But there is genuine panic behind that question.
但这个问题背后确实存在恐慌。
It's dismissed in a workshop about sexual assault, because of course it is.
它在一个关于性侵犯的研讨会上被驳回了，因为它确实如此。
We're taking about assault.
我们正在处理袭击事件。
You're talking about the mood.
你说的是心情。
Those are two separate conversations.
这是两个单独的对话。
But these guys are trying to have just one conversation about everything, a conversation that takes into account consent, but also all of their questions and anxieties when it comes to talking to a person they're sleeping with.
但这些人试图就所有事情进行一次对话，一次考虑到同意的对话，但也考虑到与他们一起睡觉的人交谈时所有的问题和焦虑。
It seems like that's a conversation they've never had.
似乎这是他们从未有过的对话。
That is one of the hardest things ever, is to try to find out-- how would you say find out what the other person wants?
这是有史以来最困难的事情之一，就是试图找出——你会怎么说找出对方想要什么？
This is the Nagib Gonzalez, a college freshman in Buffalo.
这是纳吉布·冈萨雷斯 (Nagib Gonzalez)，布法罗的一名大学新生。
I known Nagib from previous reporting.
我从之前的报道中认识了纳吉布。
He's lovely.
他很可爱。
And like every freshman at his school, he's been to a consent training in the last year.
和学校里的每个新生一样，他去年参加了同意培训。
I feel like if we're going to lay the burden of changing the way we talk about sex at the feet of 18-year-olds, people who are already many years into learning weird and bad and confusing information, if that's our answer to reduce sexual assault, I wanted to know more about what these guys actually know and where they learned it.
我觉得，如果我们要把改变我们谈论性的方式的责任放在 18 岁的年轻人身上，这些人多年来一直在学习奇怪、糟糕和令人困惑的信息，如果这就是我们减少性侵犯的答案，我想更多地了解这些人实际上知道什么以及他们从哪里学到的。
Men talk about women all the time.
男人总是谈论女人。
I just thought, like, my roommate always talks to me about his favorite sex position.
我只是想，我的室友总是和我谈论他最喜欢的性爱姿势。
And then my other friends would tell me their favorite sex positions, and then we'll just talk about, oh, that's cool.
然后我的其他朋友会告诉我他们最喜欢的性爱姿势，然后我们就谈论，哦，那很酷。
Oh, I'll try that one one day.
哦，有一天我会尝试一下。
But that's men who are sleeping with women talking about what women like to other men.
但那些和女人上床的男人却在谈论女人对其他男人的喜好。
Yeah.
是的。
So it's more like we'll decide what women do or don't like.
所以这更像是我们将决定女性喜欢什么或不喜欢什么。
But when do you talk to women about what they like?
但是你什么时候和女人谈论她们喜欢什么？
Hmm.
唔。
Yeah, OK, it's definitely men talk to men about what women like.
是的，好吧，这绝对是男人和男人谈论女人喜欢什么。
I feel like that's how it is.
我感觉就是这样。
Even if you get told by a woman what she likes, you'll be like, oh, I knew that.
即使女人告诉你她喜欢什么，你也会说，哦，我知道。
Lately Nagib's biggest source of information is his roommate, Elijah Leslie.
最近，纳吉布最大的信息来源是他的室友伊利亚·莱斯利。
He brought Elijah up a lot.
他经常教导以利亚。
Elijah says he first learned about the birds and bees from his cousin.
以利亚说，他首先从他的表弟那里了解到鸟类和蜜蜂。
Then you get older.
然后你就变老了。
Then you see Sports Illustrated .
然后你就会看到《体育画报》。
Then you see the Playboy s.
然后你就会看到《花花公子》。
Then you see the porn.
然后你就会看到色情片。
And then you see the Girls Gone Wild .
然后你就会看到《狂野女孩》。
Then you see those late night-- the Girls Gone Wild, the late night commercials and stuff like that.
然后你会看到那些深夜——疯狂的女孩、深夜广告等等。
Like 4:00 in the morning, Girls Gone Wild.
比如凌晨 4:00，《疯狂女孩》。
I think that's when you start learning.
我想那是你开始学习的时候。
Elijah was not the first or the last person I interviewed who told me he learned about sex from porn.
以利亚不是我采访的第一个或最后一个告诉我他从色情片中了解性的人。
So Nagib is learning how to engage with women from other men who are learning from porn.
因此，纳吉布正在向其他从色情片中学习的男性学习如何与女性交往。
That's like learning Chinese from a white American in Wyoming.
这就像在怀俄明州向美国白人学习中文一样。
You're missing some key primary source information.
您缺少一些关键的主要来源信息。
Every person I talk to who works on sexual assault prevention brought up one thing as particularly troubling about the way men learn about sex, and it wasn't porn.
与我交谈过的每一个从事性侵犯预防工作的人都提到了一件关于男性了解性的方式特别令人不安的事情，而且这不是色情片。
It was baseball, that we talk about sex like it's baseball, getting a home run as a metaphor for sex.
这是棒球，我们像棒球一样谈论性，用全垒打作为性的隐喻。
They said, think of how many bad lessons are built into that metaphor.
他们说，想想这个比喻中有多少糟糕的教训。
You go first base, second base, third base.
你去一垒、二垒、三垒。
There's only one direction to move.
只有一个方向可以移动。
And a home run is a win.
本垒打就是胜利。
Not to mention, you're on opposing teams.
更不用说，你们是敌对球队的。
It's competitive.
这是有竞争力的。
And it's a sport that mostly only men play.
这是一项大多数只有男性参加的运动。
Nagib Gonzalez is not attached to sex being like baseball or porn.
纳吉布·冈萨雷斯并不执着于像棒球或色情片那样的性。
Nagib just wants to be a good person.
纳吉布只想做一个好人。
He wants to be good to people.
他想与人为善。
He's looking for some guidance.
他正在寻求一些指导。
Nagib is always looking for guidance.
纳吉布一直在寻求指导。
He solicits advice often.
他经常征求意见。
This is an example.
这是一个例子。
I remember my cousin telling me, yo, you've got to kiss your girl's neck.
我记得我表弟告诉我，哟，你必须亲吻你女儿的脖子。
I do it all the time.
我一直这样做。
Oh, my girl loves it, and stuff like that.
哦，我的女儿喜欢它，诸如此类的东西。
So then that's kind of where you learn.
那么这就是你学习的地方。
Nagib, ever the careful student, kissed necks, every one of them.
纳吉布，一向细心的学生，亲吻了他们每一个人的脖子。
Another friend told him, women like it when you're funny.
另一位朋友告诉他，女人喜欢你有趣的时候。
He tries to be that.
他试图成为那样的人。
But then, Nagib had a girlfriend who told everybody he was a bad kisser.
但后来，纳吉布有一个女朋友，她告诉所有人他接吻很糟糕。
And someone told him, please stop kissing my neck.
有人告诉他，请停止亲吻我的脖子。
She thought it was gross.
她认为这很恶心。
And he felt like, wait, do I know things?
他觉得，等等，我知道事情吗？
Or do I not know things?
还是我不知道事情？
Definitely when you're younger, you think of it more as rules and steps to get laid.
当然，当你年轻的时候，你更多地认为它是上床的规则和步骤。
When you're younger, you think, oh, I have to do this step.
当你年轻的时候，你会想，哦，我必须迈出这一步。
I have to follow these steps.
我必须遵循这些步骤。
So I have to kiss her in this certain place.
所以我必须在这个特定的地方吻她。
Then I have to make out with her.
那我就得跟她亲热了。
Then I have to-- I don't know-- touch her.
然后我必须——我不知道——碰触她。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know, grab her butt or something.
我不知道，抓住她的屁股什么的。
And then, finally we get here.
然后，我们终于到了这里。
But it's not like that at all.
但事实根本不是那样的。
It's less-- it's very-- I don't know.
更少——非常——我不知道。
It varies.
它有所不同。
It's different from person to person.
这因人而异。
It could be anything.
它可以是任何东西。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Girls vary.
女孩子各有不同。
Not every girl will like something that you do.
不是每个女孩都会喜欢你做的事情。
Every girl is different.
每个女孩都是不同的。
Everyone is different.
每个人都是不同的。
Girls vary.
女孩子各有不同。
People vary.
人各有不同。
What if that was the first thing you learned about sex?
如果这是你学到的关于性的第一件事怎么办？
What if instead of starting at 18 years old with rape and moving backwards to teach consent, what if you just started with people vary?
如果不是从 18 岁就开始强奸，然后倒退到教导同意，而是从人与人之间的差异开始，会怎样？
Because if you understand that, consent follows.
因为如果您理解这一点，就会表示同意。
You have to ask questions and talk about what you like and don't like.
你必须提出问题并谈论你喜欢什么和不喜欢什么。
Otherwise, you'll never know.
否则，你永远不会知道。
You may be with one of those neck people, and you may not.
你可能和其中一位脖子上的人在一起，也可能不是。
For the rest of today's show, we are going to leave sex behind, and we are going to step forward from the beginning of life to the murky, complicated middle, the other facts of life that you really don't want to have to explain to children, because you wish they were not facts or a part of life at all.
在今天节目的其余部分中，我们将把性抛在脑后，我们将从生命的开始向前迈进到黑暗、复杂的中间，以及你真的不想向孩子们解释的其他生活事实，因为你希望它们根本不是事实或生活的一部分。
Our next story is from W.
我们的下一个故事来自W.
Kamau Bell.
卡毛·贝尔。
He's a comedian and a father.
他是一位喜剧演员，也是一位父亲。
And recently, Kamau's been planning for a conversation he really does not want to have with his children, one that is familiar to black parents everywhere in America.
最近，卡马乌一直在计划进行一场他真的不想与孩子们进行的对话，这种对话对于美国各地的黑人父母来说都很熟悉。
Act Two, "If You See Racism, Say Racism." Here's Kamau.
第二幕，“如果你看到种族主义，就说种族主义。”这里是卡玛乌。
I talk about race and racism in my act a lot, some would say too much.
我在表演中经常谈论种族和种族主义，有些人会说太多了。
It was how I was raised.
我就是这样长大的。
Some families have hardware stores.
有些家庭有五金店。
My family has thinking about racism.
我的家人有种族主义的想法。
So it's no surprise to me that after I became a parent, I began to do jokes about race and racism and fatherhood.
因此，当我成为父母后，我开始开有关种族、种族主义和父亲身份的笑话，这对我来说并不奇怪。
"And people ask me all the time, like, you're black.
“人们总是问我，比如，你是黑人。
You talk about race a lot.
你经常谈论种族。
And have you talked to your daughter about the fact that she's black?
你有没有和你的女儿谈论过她是黑人的事实？
I'm like, no, because she's 3 and 1/2.
我想，不，因为她只有 3 又 1/2。
I don't want to bum her out yet.
我还不想惹恼她。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Being black is great, but it's like a big responsibility to know that.
作为黑人很棒，但了解这一点就像是一项重大责任。
My mom waited until I was eight before she told me I was black.
我妈妈一直等到我八岁才告诉我我是黑人。
And she did it the right way.
她以正确的方式做到了。
One night she's like, tonight for dinner, you can have whatever you want.
有一天晚上，她说，今晚的晚餐，你可以吃任何你想要的东西。
I was like, yay.
我当时想，是的。
And she's like, you can stay up all night and watch TV.
她说，你可以熬夜看电视。
I was like, yay.
我当时想，是的。
And you're black.
而你是黑人。
I was like, hold on a second.
我当时想，等一下。
That explains everything.
这就解释了一切。
I thought every day I was just kind of having a shitty day.
我以为我每天都过得很糟糕。
It's good to know why now.
现在很高兴知道原因。
It's good to know there's a historical context for that."
很高兴知道这是有历史背景的。”
I now have two girls, a baby named Juno and an almost four-year-old named Sami.
我现在有两个女孩，一个叫朱诺的婴儿和一个叫萨米的快四岁的孩子。
My wife, Melissa, is white.
我的妻子梅丽莎是白人。
And Sami calls herself peanut butter.
萨米称自己为花生酱。
She really doesn't say much of anything yet.
她确实还没有说什么。
My wife and I have both put our toes, or at least our older daughter, Sami's, toe in the race pool.
我和我的妻子都把我们的脚趾，或者至少是我们的大女儿萨米的脚趾，放在了比赛池中。
But we have not even put the slightest hint of a Sami toe into the racism pool.
但我们甚至没有将萨米人的丝毫迹象纳入种族主义池中。
Yes, those are separate pools.
是的，这些是单独的泳池。
The race pool is filled with positive stories of black achievement, African American role models, books and TV shows featuring diverse characters.
比赛池充满了黑人成就的积极故事、非裔美国人的榜样、具有不同角色的书籍和电视节目。
Our race pool even has Kwanzaa.
我们的比赛池甚至还有宽扎节。
But Sami's racism pool is completely drained with a lock on the gate.
但萨米的种族主义池因大门上锁而完全排干。
And we run past it every day on the way to the race pool.
我们每天在去比赛池的路上都会经过它。
And every day that goes by, I feel guilty.
每一天过去，我都感到内疚。
The racism pool is treacherous.
种族主义池是危险的。
It's not fun to swim in.
游泳一点也不好玩。
And if you aren't careful, you drown in the sorrow of the black experience in America.
如果你不小心，你就会淹没在美国黑人经历的悲伤之中。
Damn.
该死。
We live in Berkeley.
我们住在伯克利。
People have been protesting the police blocks from our house.
人们一直在抗议我们家附近的警察街区。
How do I explain that?
我该如何解释呢？
This was on my mind recently, how to teach Sami about racism, when this thing happened.
最近，当这件事发生时，我就想到了如何教萨米有关种族主义的知识。
It was January 26 of this year, my birthday.
今年1月26日，是我的生日。
I was having a low key celebration, just like I like them.
我正在低调庆祝，就像我喜欢他们一样。
I was carrying a children's book I had just bought for Sami, The Case for Loving: The Fight for Interracial Marriage.
我带着一本刚给萨米买的儿童读物，《爱的案例：异族婚姻的斗争》。
Mildred and Richard Loving are the interracial couple responsible for the Supreme Court striking down the laws in 16 states that banned interracial marriage.
米尔德里德·洛文 (Mildred Loving) 和理查德·洛文 (Richard Loving) 是一对异族夫妇，他们推动最高法院推翻了 16 个州禁止异族通婚的法律。
And if I was going to get into racism with Sami, then the Loving story-- which was about a family like ours-- seemed like a great place to start.
如果我要讨论萨米的种族主义问题，那么《爱》的故事——关于像我们这样的家庭——似乎是一个很好的起点。
So I'm sure that many of you have heard the story of the incident that happened on January 26.
相信很多人都听说过1月26日发生的事件。
On a Friday in March, Melissa and I sat on a stage at a middle school in a packed auditorium.
三月的一个星期五，梅丽莎和我坐在一所中学礼堂的讲台上。
My main concern was that somehow all the planning and structure was going to lead to an event that was careful, sanitized, and maybe the worst thing, boring.
我主要担心的是，不知何故，所有的计划和结构都会导致一场谨慎、干净的活动，也许最糟糕的是，无聊。
It wasn't, due in large part to two amazing women on the panel, Kadijah Means-- who we'll get to in a minute-- but first, Nikki Jones.
这在很大程度上要归功于小组中两位出色的女性，卡迪贾·米恩斯（我们稍后会谈到她），但首先是尼基·琼斯。
Nikki Jones teaches at UC Berkeley.
妮基·琼斯在加州大学伯克利分校任教。
She said something that, for me, made sense of the world, not just about the small racial injustices that happen in cafes but the bigger, deadly ones that are happening all around America.
对我来说，她所说的话让这个世界变得有意义，不仅仅是咖啡馆里发生的小种族不公正，还有美国各地正在发生的更大、致命的种族不公正。
She asked us to think of the world in terms of black space and white space.
她要求我们用黑色空间和白色空间来思考世界。
She credits Elijah Anderson for this theory, but tonight she made it her main point.
她将这一理论归功于伊利亚·安德森，但今晚她将其作为自己的主要观点。
Nikki says people have ideas about black spaces.
尼基说人们对黑色空间有一些想法。
It's tied to blackness and poverty and the ghetto.
它与黑暗、贫困和贫民窟联系在一起。
It's impossible to say the word ghetto in America without thinking about black people.
在美国，说起“贫民窟”这个词，就不可能不考虑黑人。
See a black man in a suit, your brain does a calculus.
看到一个穿西装的黑人，你的大脑就会进行微积分。
What poor neighborhood did he or his parents rise up out of, or his parents' parents?
他或他的父母，或者他父母的父母，是从哪个贫困社区长大的？
It all goes back to the ghetto.
这一切都可以追溯到贫民窟。
And the ghetto itself is believed to be carried on the bodies, on and in black people.
人们相信，贫民窟本身就存在于黑人身上、身上和内心。
And that presents special dilemmas when black people are in white space.
当黑人处于白人空间时，这就带来了特殊的困境。
And what's white space?
什么是空白？
Well, just about everywhere else.
嗯，几乎其他地方都是如此。
Right?
正确的？
She says UC Berkeley, where she teaches, white space.
她说，她在加州大学伯克利分校任教，是空白。
Almost all education, public and private, white space.
几乎所有的教育，无论是公立的还是私立的，都是空白的。
Movie theaters, restaurants, some of my own stand-up shows-- I'm looking at you, Spokane-- white space.
电影院、餐馆、我自己的一些单口喜剧——我正在看着你，斯波坎——空白的空间。
Public Radio, white space.
公共广播电台，空白。
And of course, the Elmwood cafe.
当然，还有埃尔姆伍德咖啡馆。
So in these white spaces, black people have a special burden, and they face a number of dilemmas.
因此，在这些白色空间中，黑人承担着特殊的负担，他们面临着许多困境。
They have to prove that they belong there.
他们必须证明他们属于那里。
The burden is on them to prove that they belong in a particular space.
他们有责任证明自己属于某个特定空间。
Now let's go back to the incident.
现在让我们回到事件本身。
Who belongs in that space?
谁属于那个空间？
What is the presumption about what Kamau is carrying on his body?
卡马乌身上携带的是什么？
Of course, not belonging can work both ways.
当然，不归属感是双向的。
A white person in a black space lacks a similar trustworthiness.
黑人空间中的白人缺乏类似的可信度。
But think of how rare it is that a white person goes to a black space.
但想想白人去黑人空间是多么罕见。
Like a tourist in another country, you can leave whenever you choose.
就像在另一个国家的游客一样，您可以随时离开。
But the highlight of the night, high school senior, Kadijah Means.
但当晚的亮点是高中生 Kadijah Means。
She's 18 and made a name for herself in the Bay Area as an activist.
她今年 18 岁，作为一名活动家在湾区出名。
She's an awesome public speaker who, importantly to me, knows how to open with a joke.
她是一位出色的公共演讲家，对我来说最重要的是，她知道如何以笑话开头。
So number one, I want to say that I've been black all of my life.
第一，我想说我一生都是黑人。
That's a pretty good amount of motivation for me to be a social justice advocate.
这对我成为社会正义倡导者来说是一个相当大的动力。
And then she said something that made me take extra notice.
然后她说了一些让我格外注意的话。
She talked about being younger than my daughter, Sami, when she learned about race.
她谈到，当她了解种族时，她比我的女儿萨米还年轻。
I learned about race at a really young age, maybe like two or three.
我在很小的时候就了解了种族，大概两三岁。
My dad has a really good way of teaching about fractions.
我爸爸有一个非常好的教授分数的方法。
When he would make me toast, he would cut it in half and be like, this is half.
当他给我烤面包时，他会把它切成两半，然后说，这是一半。
This is a fourth.
这是第四个。
So I learned about race in a kind of similar way, learning that white didn't mean white like paper, but it was a construct.
所以我以类似的方式了解了种族，了解到白色并不意味着像纸一样的白色，而是一种构造。
Yeah, I learned that pretty young.
是的，我很小的时候就学会了。
That was weird.
这很奇怪。
My oldest daughter is four.
我的大女儿四岁了。
She has just begun to understand that people are different colors.
她刚刚开始明白人是有不同颜色的。
I can't imagine somehow connecting that to the fact that race itself is a construct.
我无法想象以某种方式将其与种族本身是一种建构的事实联系起来。
I'm not sure I could define the word construct to another adult, let alone a four-year-old.
我不确定我是否可以向另一个成年人定义“构建”这个词，更不用说一个四岁的孩子了。
Kadijah then closed with a few tips on how we can all be less racist, like this one.
卡迪贾最后提出了一些关于我们如何才能减少种族主义的建议，就像这个一样。
Focus less on color blindness, because honestly, you're not going to get a gold star for that.
少关注色盲，因为说实话，你不会因此获得金星。
Be more color competent.
更擅长色彩。
Be more--
更加——
And this one.
还有这个。
Kadijah Means Please don't call people articulate.
Kadijah 的意思是“请不要说人们善于表达”。
Don't come up to me after and tell me I'm articulate.
事后别来找我并告诉我我能言善道。
Please do not do that.
请不要那样做。
And there's a whole bunch of reasons why that we don't have time for.
我们没有时间的原因有很多。
You might want to grab a pen and some paper, because she's on a roll.
你可能需要拿笔和纸，因为她在卷轴上。
Your mind makes generalizations.
你的头脑会做出概括。
That's what it does.
这就是它的作用。
It's not bad to that.
这还不错。
It's bad to think that that one generalization is what everyone is.
认为每个人都是这样的概括是很糟糕的。
You also have to take a step outside of that and remember that people are individuals.
你还必须跳出这一点，记住人都是独立的。
People have different lives.
人们有不同的生活。
Just because I'm black doesn't mean I act like other black people.
仅仅因为我是黑人并不意味着我的行为就像其他黑人一样。
Black people built this country, whether you like it or not.
黑人建立了这个国家，不管你喜欢与否。
Love us, please.
请爱我们。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I was so impressed by Kadijah.
卡迪贾给我留下了深刻的印象。
I began to think about her dad, the one who taught her about fractions and race.
我开始想起她的父亲，那个教她分数和种族的人。
Kadijah was completely versed in the evils of racism.
卡迪贾深知种族主义的罪恶。
But she was also idealistic about the future.
但她对未来也抱有理想主义的态度。
She understood how well-intended people could do racist things, but how that doesn't always make them bad people.
她理解善意的人可能会做出种族主义的事情，但这并不总是让他们成为坏人。
She got the broad strokes and the nuances.
她了解了大体的轮廓和细微差别。
And Kadijah also knew how to do something that is absolutely essential to your survival as a black person in America.
卡迪贾也知道如何做一些对你作为美国黑人的生存绝对重要的事情。
She saw and identified racism in her everyday life, and she didn't internalize it.
她在日常生活中看到并识别出种族主义，但她没有将其内化。
But she also didn't ignore it.
但她也没有忽视。
She just judo flipped it and kept walking.
她只是柔道翻转，继续走。
I wanted some advice on how to raise a kid like that.
我想要一些关于如何抚养这样的孩子的建议。
Who was this dad?
这个爸爸是谁？
I imagined him to be a mix of '60s era Berkeley hippie and hope and change era Obama.
我想象他是 60 年代伯克利嬉皮士和希望与变革时代奥巴马的混合体。
I don't smile a lot.
我不怎么笑。
So I'm not the smiling black man.
所以我不是那个微笑的黑人。
Yeah.
是的。
That's Cliff Means.
这就是悬崖意味着。
He's a self-described businessman who means business.
他自称是一个认真做生意的商人。
I like to imagine that his business card reads on one line, "Cliff Means," and under that, "Business." In fact, when we ask Cliff to do the interview, initially he said, "I don't know you.
我喜欢想象他的名片上一行写着“悬崖意味着”，下面写着“生意”。事实上，当我们要求克里夫接受采访时，他最初说：“我不认识你。
I don't know your audience.
我不了解你的观众。
So no."
所以不。”
So when my producer, Robyn, and I met with Cliff and Kadijah, I knew he was still reluctant, but I wasn't sure what had changed his mind.
因此，当我的制片人罗宾和我会见克里夫和卡迪贾时，我知道他仍然不情愿，但我不确定是什么改变了他的想法。
I had to ask.
我不得不问。
Kadijah really wanted me to do this is the bottom line.
卡迪贾真的希望我这么做，这是底线。
Now, had I found out anything too horrific about either one of you, then it probably still would have been no. But I couldn't find anything terrible.
现在，如果我发现你们中任何一个人有什么太可怕的事情，那么可能仍然不会。但我并没有发现什么可怕的事情。
Well, I tell you, one thing that leaned in your favor.
好吧，我告诉你，有一件事对你有利。
I did read something written by you, because I was trying to do as much homework as I could, because my answer was really no. And your writing had made enough white people angry that I said, OK, maybe he's actually trying to do something.
我确实读过你写的东西，因为我试图尽可能多地做作业，因为我的答案确实是否定的。你的文章让足够多的白人感到愤怒，我说，好吧，也许他实际上是在尝试做某事。
So it's clear that Cliff is not exactly a "why can't we just get along" type of guy.
所以很明显，克里夫并不是那种“我们为什么不能好好相处”的人。
And he has very clear thoughts about what should be taught to kids.
对于应该教给孩子什么，他有非常清晰的想法。
How old was Kadijah when you first started explaining race to her?
当你第一次开始向卡迪贾解释种族问题时她多大了？
I would imagine four or five years old.
我想象四五岁的时候。
She was an early talker.
她是一个很早说话的人。
We spent a ton of time together, because I asked her, does she want to enter a speech for the Martin Luther King celebration at her school.
我们花了很多时间在一起，因为我问她，她想在学校的马丁·路德·金庆祝活动上发表演讲吗？
And we co-wrote a speech that people were very enamored with.
我们共同撰写了一篇人们非常喜欢的演讲。
And I explained to her that Martin Luther King wasn't killed for the "I Have a Dream" speech, but once he started talking about getting poor whites and poor blacks together, then he had to go.
我向她解释说，马丁·路德·金并不是因为“我有一个梦想”演讲而被杀，但一旦他开始谈论让贫穷的白人和贫穷的黑人走到一起，他就必须离开。
But my children, I taught, you will be going to school, and you will be getting told that there's justice for all.
但我教导我的孩子们，你们将去上学，你们将被告知所有人都有正义。
And then when you find out there's not, then you'll be confused.
然后当你发现没有的时候，你就会感到困惑。
And I don't want my children confused.
我不想让我的孩子们感到困惑。
I want them knowledgeable.
我希望他们知识渊博。
So at what age did you get into the history of black people in this country and have to cover things like pre-Civil Rights Movement, like Jim Crow and slavery and things like that?
那么，您是在多大年纪开始了解这个国家黑人的历史，并且必须报道诸如民权运动之前的事情，比如吉姆·克劳法和奴隶制之类的事情？
At five, I taught her about slavery, and I taught her as what it is, that Europe went to war with West Africa for centuries.
五岁时，我教她有关奴隶制的知识，并教她了解欧洲与西非持续了几个世纪的战争。
Kids used to love Native Americans when I was a kid because they fought back.
当我还是个孩子的时候，孩子们曾经很喜欢美洲原住民，因为他们会反抗。
Why didn't black people fight back?
黑人为何不反抗？
Well, they did, and were slaughtered and terrorized and tortured and murdered and raped-- I probably left out rape at that age for her-- captured, kidnapped, and brought over Africans to America.
好吧，他们确实这么做了，被屠杀、恐吓、折磨、谋杀和强奸——我可能在她那个年纪没有强奸——被俘虏、绑架，并将非洲人带到美国。
And they were here terrorized and murdered.
他们在这里遭到恐吓和谋杀。
And we go from that stage all the way to being here, enslaved.
我们从那个阶段一路走到这里，被奴役。
He taught her that at five.
他五岁时就教了她这个。
Cliff is clearly not afraid to throw his kids into the deep end of the racism pool and let them learn to swim.
克里夫显然并不害怕把他的孩子扔进种族主义的深渊，让他们学习游泳。
This is pretty much the opposite of what I had done so far.
这与我迄今为止所做的几乎相反。
How deep did their racism pool get?
他们的种族主义有多深？
She learned things like white officers following the black migration to northern California to work in the shipping yards, in southern California was shipping yards.
她学到了一些事情，比如白人军官跟随黑人移民到北加州的造船厂工作，而南加州则有造船厂。
Hey, we'd better bring some racist white cops here to keep these people in line.
嘿，我们最好带一些种族主义白人警察来这里，让这些人保持秩序。
She learned that there were black cooks grinding up glass in the kitchen to make sure that white racist, brutal slave masters' intestines would bleed and be open, and then he would be gone.
她了解到，有黑人厨师在厨房里磨碎玻璃，以确保白人种族主义者、残酷的奴隶主的肠子流血并被打开，然后他就会消失。
What was your question?
你的问题是什么？
Do you want the church thing brought up at all?
你想提起教会的事情吗？
It's fine.
没关系。
W.
W.
Kamau Bell That's Kadijah.
卡毛·贝尔 那是卡迪贾。
I don't know what the church thing is, but I can tell it was one of those family stories.
我不知道教堂是什么，但我可以看出这是那些家庭故事之一。
Kadijah let my producer, Robyn, and I in on it.
卡迪贾让我的制片人罗宾和我参与其中。
After my dad told me about racism, I distinctly remember being angry with white people, like how dare you enslave my people.
在我父亲告诉我种族主义之后，我清楚地记得我对白人感到愤怒，比如你怎么敢奴役我的人民。
And so we were at church one day.
就这样，有一天我们去了教堂。
It wasn't actually at church.
实际上并不是在教堂。
It was a church function.
这是一次教堂活动。
It was in the church.
那是在教堂里。
It was a church function held after.
这是之后举行的教堂活动。
So I guess I went up onto the pulpit and asked for the mic.
所以我想我走上讲坛并要了麦克风。
And I told the entire congregation that black people and white people should not be together.
我告诉全体会众，黑人和白人不应该在一起。
And that was my synthesis of racism in America and slavery that I had come up with throughout the week after my dad told me about racism.
这就是我对美国种族主义和奴隶制的综合，是在我父亲告诉我有关种族主义的一周后我得出的结论。
You're saying you became a five-year-old segregationist?
你是说你五岁就成了种族隔离主义者？
I did.
我做到了。
I did.
我做到了。
W.
W.
Kamau Bell In my house, we can't have a five-year-old segregationist.
卡马乌·贝尔 在我家，我们不能有一个五岁的种族隔离主义者。
I mean, don't get me wrong, it'd be fun for a bit in a Kids Say the Darndest Things kind of way.
我的意思是，不要误会我的意思，以“孩子们说最糟糕的事情”的方式，这会很有趣。
I ran a version of what Kadijah said in church by my wife, Melissa, as a hypothetical.
我将卡迪贾在教堂里由我的妻子梅丽莎所说的话作为一个假设。
What would you do if Sami told you white people and black people can't be together?
如果萨米告诉你白人和黑人不能在一起，你会怎么做？
It would be an immediate investigation.
这将立即进行调查。
Melissa would ask, "What makes you say that?
梅丽莎会问：“你为什么这么说？
Why do you think they can't be together?
为什么你认为他们不能在一起？
And yes, OK, white people did hurt your people.
是的，好吧，白人确实伤害了你们的人民。
But also, Mommy and Daddy are together.
而且，妈妈和爸爸在一起。
And that's good, isn't it?"
这很好，不是吗？”
It would be a conversation with me.
这将是与我的对话。
It would be a conversation with Sami, every day, all the time.
这将是与萨米的对话，每天，每时每刻。
I asked Cliff how he felt about Kadijah's speech at church.
我问克里夫他对卡迪贾在教堂的演讲有何感想。
I was like, well, she learned what she learned.
我当时想，好吧，她学到了她学到的东西。
That's probably a healthy reaction for having learned what she learned this week.
对于她本周所学到的知识来说，这可能是一个健康的反应。
I think the audience was a little surprised.
我认为观众有点惊讶。
Was there a white person in her life that you felt like, uh-oh, if she thinks that about all white people, then she's going to hate this one person who's actually, you know, a nice person?
她生活中是否有一个白人让你觉得，呃，哦，如果她对所有白人都这么想，那么她会讨厌这个实际上是个好人的人？
Oh, no, absolutely not.
哦，不，绝对不是。
I'm not concerned about the white man in America.
我不关心美国的白人。
I think he's doing very well.
我认为他做得很好。
And I had no concern, or do I now have any concern for anyone's feelings or whatever else being hurt by a five-year-old.
我不关心，或者说我现在关心任何人的感受或其他任何被一个五岁孩子伤害的事情。
Maybe it could start a conversation with them.
也许它可以开始与他们对话。
They can think about some of the things that they enjoy that no one else enjoy in this country.
他们可以考虑一些他们喜欢但在这个国家没有人喜欢的事情。
So no.
所以不。
I really like Cliff.
我真的很喜欢克里夫。
Cliff is not an easy person, but then why should he be easy?
克里夫不是一个容易相处的人，但是他为什么要容易呢？
Cliff is the type of person who keeps the rest of us a little more honest.
克里夫是那种让我们其他人变得更加诚实的人。
I want more Cliff in my life.
我希望我的生活中有更多的悬崖。
Kadijah told me that even with her candid, unfiltered upbringing, she could tell early on the difference between white oppression and the white people in her life.
卡迪贾告诉我，即使她受到坦率、未经过滤的成长，她也能很早就看出白人压迫和她生活中的白人之间的区别。
But to be able to do that, she had to learn about it and get angry.
但要做到这一点，她必须了解并生气。
I get that.
我明白了。
When I first began to really understand the violence of racism, I was angry.
当我第一次开始真正理解种族主义的暴力时，我很生气。
It makes sense to be angry.
生气是有道理的。
The anger helps you push back against the injustice.
愤怒可以帮助你反抗不公正。
Anger is not the goal.
愤怒不是目标。
It's the fuel.
这是燃料。
Even so, sometimes I feel like I have too much anger.
即便如此，有时我还是觉得自己的愤怒太多了。
There are black people in America dying from racism.
美国有黑人死于种族主义。
Bad treatment in a fancy coffee shop is the softest and easiest part of racism.
在一家高档咖啡店里的恶劣待遇是种族主义中最温和、最容易的部分。
There were times during this whole thing I felt like I should just drop it.
在这整个过程中，有几次我觉得我应该放弃它。
Cliff and I talked about that, too.
克里夫和我也谈到了这一点。
Being told to leave a cafe on College Avenue, that's not a big deal on a basic level.
被告知离开学院大道上的一家咖啡馆，这从根本上来说并不是什么大问题。
But I knew that you can't just keep letting your boundary get pushed.
但我知道你不能一直让自己的界限被突破。
I don't let anything go.
我不会放过任何东西。
I don't let anything go.
我不会放过任何东西。
Don't shake my hand like you're black or something.
别跟我握手，好像你是黑人什么的。
You shake my hand like a white man.
你像白人一样握着我的手。
You shake my hand like you shake-- don't relate to me.
你像握手一样握着我的手——与我无关。
Don't let anything go is the message of the day.
不要放过任何东西，这是今天的信息。
That's what I feel, but I never put it in those words.
这就是我的感受，但我从未用这些话表达出来。
Those are the words I was looking for.
这些就是我一直在寻找的词。
Don't let anything go.
不要放过任何东西。
Racism is real and happening right now, every day.
种族主义是真实存在的，并且每天都在发生。
That means that every day I have an opportunity to teach my daughters about racism.
这意味着我每天都有机会教导我的女儿们有关种族主义的知识。
So this is to you, Sami and Juno.
这是给你们的，萨米和朱诺。
I promise you, from now on, I'm not going to let it go.
我向你保证，从现在开始，我不会再放手了。
The stakes are too high.
赌注太高了。
W.
W.
Kamau Bell is a comedian in Berkeley.
卡莫·贝尔是伯克利的喜剧演员。
You can hear him on his podcast, "Denzel Washington is the Greatest Actor of All Time Period," or find a list of his upcoming shows on his website, wkamaubell.com.
您可以在他的播客“丹泽尔·华盛顿是有史以来最伟大的演员”中听到他的声音，或者在他的网站 wkamaubell.com 上找到他即将上映的节目列表。
That's W-K-A-M-A-U Bell dot com.
那是 W-K-A-M-A-U Bell 网络公司。
Coming up, a group of grownups who are not fumbling at all.
迎面走来的是一群完全不摸索的大人。
They have a plan, and it includes costumes, volcanoes, and a talking stick.
他们有一个计划，其中包括服装、火山和一根会说话的棍子。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt, sitting in for Ira Glass.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特 (Chana Joffe-Walt)，代理艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)。
Today's show, "The Birds and the Bees." We are listening in as grownups try to convey their most important deeply-held beliefs to small humans who cannot yet zip up their own jackets.
今天的节目是《鸟儿和蜜蜂》。我们正在倾听成年人试图向还无法拉上自己夹克拉链的小人物传达他们最重要的根深蒂固的信念。
We started at the beginning, where do babies come from?
我们从头开始，婴儿从哪里来？
In this last part of the show, we're going to talk about the end.
在节目的最后一部分，我们将讨论结局。
Act Three, "About That Farm Upstate." Jonathan Goldstein has this last story.
第三幕，“关于北部的那个农场”。乔纳森·戈德斯坦有最后一个故事。
And a quick warning, like I said at the beginning of the show, these are stories about grownups talking with children about difficult subject matter.
快速警告，就像我在节目开始时所说的那样，这些是关于成年人与孩子谈论困难主题的故事。
So if you have kids with you, keep that in mind.
因此，如果您有孩子，请记住这一点。
OK, here's Jonathan.
好的，这是乔纳森。
There's a house in Salt Lake City where kids come to have death explained to them, not just that people die but how they die.
盐湖城有一所房子，孩子们来这里向他们解释死亡，不仅是人会死，还有他们是如何死的。
It's called The Sharing Place.
它被称为“共享场所”。
And the first person they meet there is Jill Macfarlane.
他们在那里遇到的第一个人是吉尔·麦克法兰。
This is how she explains a heart attack.
这就是她对心脏病发作的解释。
Your heart stopped working, and it couldn't move your blood through your body.
你的心脏停止工作，它无法让你的血液流经你的身体。
She has a quiver full of kid-sized explanations for all the ways that life can end, like kidney failure.
她对生命结束的所有方式（比如肾衰竭）有一个充满了孩子般大小的解释。
Your kidneys are washing machines for your blood.
您的肾脏是血液的洗衣机。
And when they stop working and your blood's dirty, then it poisons your body, and you die.
当它们停止工作并且你的血液变脏时，它就会毒害你的身体，然后你就会死亡。
Overdoses.
服药过量。
Jill Macfarlane Overdose is when you have a sickness in your brain called addiction.
吉尔·麦克法兰（Jill Macfarlane）服药过量是指您的大脑患有一种称为成瘾的疾病。
An addiction makes you take medicine that's not good for you, and you take way too much of it.
成瘾会让你服用对你没有好处的药物，而且你会服用过量的药物。
But not all medicine's bad either.
但也不是所有的药都是坏的。
Have you dealt with murder?
你处理过谋杀吗？
Jill Macfarlane Mm-hm.
吉尔·麦克法兰 嗯嗯。
It's when somebody chooses to make your body stop working.
当有人选择让你的身体停止工作时。
It's a choice.
这是一个选择。
We also do choice and not choice.
我们也做选择，而不是选择。
Like, murder is a choice.
就像，谋杀是一种选择。
Cancer is not a choice.
癌症不是一个选择。
We also do contagious or not contagious.
我们也区分传染性或不传染性。
Like, you're not going to get my depression.
就像，你不会得我的抑郁症。
And you're not going to get my cancer.
你不会得我的癌症。
The Sharing Place is a grief support center for kids who have lost a family member.
The Shareing Place 是一个为失去家人的孩子设立的悲伤支持中心。
It's one of hundreds of centers like it around the country.
这是全国数百个类似中心之一。
Kids sit in support groups led by grownups, but the point is to allow children to talk to other children about their grief.
孩子们坐在由成年人领导的支持小组中，但重点是让孩子们与其他孩子谈论他们的悲伤。
They're encouraged to speak in concrete language about death because, the thinking goes, that's how to process death's finality.
他们被鼓励用具体的语言谈论死亡，因为他们的想法是，这就是如何处理死亡的结局。
So people don't pass away.
所以人不会逝去。
You don't lose them.
你不会失去他们。
They die.
他们死了。
We invest so much effort trying to shield kids from the scary things in life.
我们投入了如此多的努力来保护孩子们免受生活中可怕事物的影响。
We place advisories before TV shows that warn against inappropriate language and subject matter.
我们在电视节目前发布警告，警告不要使用不当语言和主题。
And what could be less appropriate than death?
还有什么比死亡更不恰当的呢？
So for all we let on-- bunnies lay eggs.
不管我们怎么说——兔子会下蛋。
Your mother means well.
你妈妈的本意是好的。
And life pretty much goes on forever.
生活几乎永远持续下去。
To do otherwise feels like you're breaking a basic pact that grownups have with one another.
否则，感觉就像你违反了成年人彼此之间的一项基本契约。
Who did you have die?
你让谁死了？
Child 1 My dad, two guinea pigs, a dog, two cats, and my dad.
孩子 1 我爸爸、两只豚鼠、一只狗、两只猫和我爸爸。
And that's all.
仅此而已。
The kids here are more comfortable talking about death than most adults are, like Hailey, who lost a sister and brother to mitochondrial disease.
这里的孩子们比大多数成年人更愿意谈论死亡，比如海莉，她因线粒体疾病失去了姐姐和弟弟。
She and her other brother have the disease, too, but not as bad.
她和她的另一个兄弟也患有这种病，但没有那么严重。
They've had to deal with something that most other people haven't had too, let alone other kids.
他们不得不面对大多数其他人都没有经历过的事情，更不用说其他孩子了。
So it's hard to talk about with the kids at school.
所以在学校里很难和孩子们谈论。
Sometimes they don't even know what we're talking about, because we know all this stuff, like all these words that none of the other kids heard about, like neurological or something like that.
有时他们甚至不知道我们在说什么，因为我们知道所有这些东西，就像其他孩子没有听说过的所有这些词，比如神经学或类似的东西。
And they're like, what does that mean?
他们会想，这是什么意思？
Or like a feeding tube, what does that mean?
或者像喂食管，这意味着什么？
It's not hard to explain, but it's hard to tell them, and they still don't understand where it goes or what it does to help you.
这并不难解释，但很难告诉他们，而且他们仍然不明白它去哪里或者它能帮助你做什么。
But this is a place where kids do understand.
但这是孩子们确实理解的地方。
There are more than a dozen separate the groups at The Sharing Place, broken down by age.
The Shareing Place 有十多个不同的团体，按年龄划分。
The groups meet twice a month for about an hour and a half in a refurbished house, made to feel homey and safe so it's like visiting your grandma's.
这些团体每月在翻新的房子里聚会两次，每次约一个半小时，让人感觉宾至如归且安全，就像拜访祖母一样。
There are rooms where kids meet and talk and rooms where their parents do the same.
有些房间是孩子们见面和交谈的地方，有些房间是他们的父母做同样事情的地方。
But most of the rooms are dedicated to play.
但大部分房间都是专门用来玩的。
There's a costume room where kids can dress up like police, ballerinas, cowboys.
这里有一个服装室，孩子们可以装扮成警察、芭蕾舞演员、牛仔。
I'm Spider-Man.
我是蜘蛛侠。
So you can do whatever I tell you to do.
所以你可以做我告诉你做的任何事情。
And beside it is a room called the soft room, which is full of props and toys, including an old telephone.
而旁边还有一个叫做软室的房间，里面摆满了道具和玩具，其中包括一部旧电话。
One little girl who watched her mother have a heart attack spent an entire play session pretending to call for help.
一个小女孩看着她的母亲心脏病发作，整个游戏过程都在假装呼救。
"Hi, 9-1-1," she'd say.
“嗨，9-1-1，”她会说。
"My grandma's dying.
“我的奶奶快要死了。
Hurry.
快点。
Come quick." Then she'd hang up and dial again.
快点来吧。”然后她会挂断电话并再次拨号。
"Hi, 9-1-1, my dad's dying.
“嗨，9-1-1，我爸爸快要死了。
Hurry.
快点。
Come quick."
快点来吧。”
One of the most popular rooms is a padded room called the volcano room.
最受欢迎的房间之一是被称为火山房的软垫房间。
I'm going to go play in the volcano room.
我要去火山房间玩。
It's full of cushions and large rubber yoga balls.
里面装满了垫子和大橡胶瑜伽球。
It's even got an adult-sized dummy to wrestle and punch.
它甚至还有一个成人尺寸的假人可供摔跤和拳击。
The kids can scream, yell, pound the walls, and throw things around.
孩子们可以尖叫、大喊、敲打墙壁、扔东西。
They love it.
他们喜欢它。
Whoo.
呼。
Bling.
金光闪闪。
Boom.
繁荣。
Bam.
嘭。
No ball can attack me.
没有球可以攻击我。
Whoo!
呼！
Boing.
啵。
It's a release.
这是一个释放。
Eve is nine years old, and her father died about two years ago.
夏娃九岁了，她的父亲大约两年前去世了。
She knows that feeling of keeping it all bottled up inside.
她知道那种把一切都藏在心里的感觉。
She says she can go days at school like that.
她说她可以这样在学校度过好几天。
It kind of feels really overwhelming.
感觉真的很压倒性。
And it's like you don't know what to do.
就好像你不知道该怎么做。
And on the inside, it's like hurting somehow in a feeling way.
而在内心深处，这就像某种感觉上受到了某种伤害。
It like hurts somehow.
不知何故有点痛。
Where would you say it hurts?
你说哪里痛？
Eve Usually, with me, it would hurt in the throat and kind of in my stomach.
夏娃 通常，对我来说，喉咙会痛，胃也会痛。
It's like something that needs to come out, but just I really need to learn how to do that.
这就像一些需要出来的东西，但我真的需要学习如何做到这一点。
I think there are people in this world who can grow up and don't really know how to talk frankly about lots of things.
我觉得这个世界上有一些人，虽然长大了，但很多事情却不太懂得如何坦白地谈论。
Nancy Reiser is one of the co-founders of The Sharing Place.
Nancy Reiser 是 The Shareing Place 的联合创始人之一。
And this is what she says when children ask her how people die.
当孩子们问她人是怎么死的时，她就是这么说的。
I say, well, close your eyes and listen.
我说，好吧，闭上眼睛听。
[HEAVY BREATHING]
[粗重的呼吸声]
And there isn't the next breath.
并且没有下一次呼吸。
Does it hurt?
痛吗？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Their face doesn't look like it hurt.
他们的脸看起来并没有受伤。
Nancy's a therapist who works with young children.
南希是一名治疗幼儿的治疗师。
For a long time, the very concept that children do, in fact, grieve was hotly disputed.
很长一段时间以来，关于儿童确实感到悲伤这一概念一直存在激烈争议。
Freud said that it was difficult for children to even conceive of such loss.
弗洛伊德说，对于孩子来说，甚至很难想象这样的损失。
And as a culture, Nancy says, that's pretty much the idea that we operate under.
南希说，作为一种文化，这几乎就是我们运作的理念。
Oh, look, she's playing.
哦，看，她在玩。
She's OK.
她没事。
She didn't really understand what happened.
她实在不明白到底发生了什么。
Well, she's playing.
嗯，她在玩。
But then half an hour later, she's in the house, holding her teddy bear and sucking her thumb and crying.
但半小时后，她回到了屋里，抱着她的泰迪熊，吮吸拇指哭泣。
So we need to let people know that children grieve, and help them when they grieve so it's not stuck inside and comes out when they try to have a relationship later.
因此，我们需要让人们知道孩子们会感到悲伤，并在他们悲伤时帮助他们，这样悲伤就不会被困在内心，当他们以后尝试建立关系时就会出来。
When they start to get intimate, they cannot bear it, and they go off.
当他们开始变得亲密时，他们就无法忍受，然后就走开了。
And they don't know why.
他们不知道为什么。
Nancy says children just grieve differently than adults, especially little children.
南希说，孩子们的悲伤方式与成年人不同，尤其是小孩子。
They grieve in fits and starts.
他们时断时续地悲伤。
They can't focus on it for very long.
他们无法长时间专注于此。
And grief is more physical for them.
对他们来说，悲伤更多的是身体上的。
They'll act out their anger, maybe kick a door, which is the reason for the volcano room at The Sharing Place.
他们会表现出愤怒，也许会踢门，这就是共享广场火山室的原因。
They might also regress, suddenly using baby talk or sucking their thumbs.
他们也可能会退化，突然使用儿语或吮吸拇指。
And if they're potty trained, they might become untrained.
如果他们受过如厕训练，他们可能会变得未经训练。
They're also magical thinkers.
他们也是神奇的思想家。
I heard stories of kids who were afraid to go to sleep because grandma went to sleep and didn't wake up.
我听说过一些故事，孩子们不敢睡觉，因为奶奶睡着了，没有醒来。
One little boy wandered away from his mom at the emergency room saying, I'm looking for Dad.
急诊室里，一个小男孩从妈妈身边走开，说：“我在找爸爸。”
We left him here last time.
上次我们把他留在这里。
Another boy said he just wanted to die for a few days so he can go to heaven and teach his little sister how to ride a tricycle.
另一个男孩说他只想死几天，这样他就可以去天堂教他的妹妹如何骑三轮车。
Children also re-grieve.
孩子们也再次悲伤。
That is, with every new stage of development, they experience their grief anew.
也就是说，随着每一个新的发展阶段，他们都会重新经历悲伤。
And with every milestone-- when their braces come off, when they get their driver's license, when they graduate-- they'll inevitably think, I wish my mom was here.
随着每一个里程碑——当他们摘下牙套时，当他们获得驾驶执照时，当他们毕业时——他们不可避免地会想，我希望我妈妈在这里。
And given all of this, the thought behind The Sharing Place and other centers like it is that kids can help one another in a way that adults perhaps can't help them.
考虑到所有这些，共享场所和其他类似中心背后的想法是，孩子们可以以成年人可能无法帮助他们的方式互相帮助。
That's why they're brought together in these groups.
这就是为什么他们聚集在这些团体中。
In short, kids speak the same language.
简而言之，孩子们说着同样的语言。
Is that thing turned on?
那东西打开了吗？
Jonathan Goldstein It is turned on.
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 它已打开。
What do you think about that?
你对此有何看法？
Before their session at The Sharing Place, I sit down with Gavin, who's six, and his brother, Aidan, who's eight.
在共享场所进行会议之前，我与六岁的加文和他八岁的兄弟艾丹坐在一起。
They're both dressed in matching long-sleeved polo shirts.
他们都穿着配套的长袖 Polo 衫。
Gavin sits on his mother Nichole's lap.
加文坐在他母亲尼科尔的腿上。
Aidan sits beside them.
艾丹坐在他们旁边。
His little brother, Gavin, points his finger to his head and pulls the pretend trigger.
他的弟弟加文用手指指着自己的头，假装扣动了扳机。
He snaps is head back.
他猛地回头。
Yep, that's what happened.
是的，就是这样。
Jonathan Goldstein What did you just do there?
乔纳森·戈德斯坦 你刚才在那里做了什么？
He shot his head.
他开枪射击了头。
And then, we didn't know he was dead, right Mama?
然后，我们不知道他死了，对吧妈妈？
We didn't.
我们没有。
Gavin And then we said, "Wake up, Dad."
加文 然后我们说：“醒来吧，爸爸。”
No, you didn't see him.
不，你没有看到他。
Mommy found him.
妈妈找到了他。
And he was already dead.
而他已经死了。
Did you turn him over?
你把他翻过来了吗？
Nichole I didn't touch him.
尼科尔 我没有碰他。
OK.
好的。
Aidan Because she knew he was dead, because she saw blood and things.
艾丹因为她知道他死了，因为她看到了血和东西。
On his head?
在他头上？
Aidan Yeah.
艾丹 是的。
And he was a terrific guy-- so nice, so generous.
他是一个很棒的人——非常友善，非常慷慨。
He would always help anyone.
他总是会帮助任何人。
He was a terrific guy.
他是一个很棒的人。
What did you learn here that helped you the most?
您在这里学到的什么对您最有帮助？
To understand how he died.
想要了解他是怎么死的。
Jonathan Goldstein Sometimes that task, telling the kids that their parent committed suicide, falls to Jill Macfarlane, because the surviving parent or guardian might be so inside their own grief that they can't bring themselves to do it.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦有时，告诉孩子们父母自杀的任务会落到吉尔·麦克法兰身上，因为幸存的父母或监护人可能沉浸在悲伤之中，无法让自己去做这件事。
Jill explains suicide as simply as she does other kinds of death.
吉尔对自杀的解释和她对其他类型死亡的解释一样简单。
There's a sickness in your brain called depression, she says.
她说，你的大脑中有一种叫做抑郁症的疾病。
And it can make you decide to make your own body stop working.
它可以让你决定让自己的身体停止工作。
She says it's required that the kids know how their brother or sister or mother died before starting the group.
她说，孩子们必须在开始这个小组之前知道他们的兄弟姐妹或母亲是如何去世的。
Well, I had one family say he died because he was sick.
嗯，有一个家人说他死了，因为他病了。
One family said that he died in a car accident.
一位家人称，他死于车祸。
One family said that he accidentally shot himself.
一位家人称，他不小心开枪自杀了。
He didn't mean to.
他不是故意的。
It was Jill who helped their mom break the news to Aidan and Gavin that their dad shot himself.
吉尔帮助他们的妈妈向艾丹和加文通报了他们的爸爸开枪自杀的消息。
She says that conversation was especially hard.
她说谈话特别困难。
The boys immediately said, you don't know my dad.
男孩们立即说，你不认识我爸爸。
Why would you say that?
你为什么这么说？
You don't know us.
你不认识我们。
And I said, I know.
我说，我知道。
I don't know you.
我不认识你。
But your mom's here today because she needed my help in telling you this, because this is a really hard and scary thing that happened.
但你妈妈今天来这里是因为她需要我的帮助来告诉你这件事，因为这确实是一件艰难而可怕的事情。
And your mom told me that that's what happened.
你妈妈告诉我，事情就是这样发生的。
And Aidan just was like, you're crazy, lady.
艾丹就说，你疯了，女士。
There's no way that we're going to talk about this.
我们不可能谈论这个。
This is not what happened.
这不是发生的事情。
It was horrible and was awful.
这太可怕了，太可怕了。
And I cried that whole night.
我哭了一整晚。
It was just awful.
太糟糕了。
I just felt so horrible.
我只是觉得太可怕了。
And my husband was like, you can't do this.
我丈夫说，你不能这样做。
You have to go to the director and tell her that you can't do this again.
你得去见导演，告诉她你不能再这样了。
Suicide is always one of the highest, if not the highest cause of death for Sharing Place families at any given time.
在任何特定时间，对于共享场所家庭来说，自杀即使不是最高的死亡原因，也始终是最高的死亡原因之一。
There's actually a special group devoted specifically to suicide.
实际上有一个专门致力于自杀的特殊团体。
And a lot of the stories you hear in that group are so horrible that you can't help but wonder, why tell the kids what happened at all?
你在那个小组中听到的很多故事都非常可怕，你不禁想知道，为什么要告诉孩子们发生了什么？
Why not just say they died and leave it at that?
为什么不直接说他们死了然后就这样呢？
According to Jill and her colleagues, we need to tell children so they won't find out later in life and wonder, what else did they lie to me about?
据吉尔和她的同事说，我们需要告诉孩子们，这样他们就不会在以后的生活中发现并想知道他们还对我撒了什么谎？
They also don't want to have to cloak it in a way that suggests it's unspeakable and shameful.
他们也不希望以一种难以言表和可耻的方式来掩盖它。
They get enough of that idea at school.
他们在学校里已经受够了这个想法。
This is Eve again, whose father also shot himself.
这又是伊芙，她的父亲也开枪自杀了。
Well, some people at school, they say this makes me feel really sad, too.
嗯，学校里的一些人也说这让我感到非常难过。
They say that when somebody kills themselves, that means they go to the wrong place.
他们说，当有人自杀时，就意味着他们去错了地方。
I don't believe that, but it just makes me feel really sad when they say that.
我不相信，但当他们这么说时，我感到非常难过。
Like instead of going to a happy place, they would go to a sad.
就像他们不会去一个快乐的地方，而是去一个悲伤的地方。
But even if you don't believe it, and you know it's nonsense, it still kind of hurts that someone would say that?
但即使你不相信，而且你知道这是无稽之谈，但有人这么说还是有点伤人？
Yeah, it does, because it's like somebody judging my papa, which it's not a bad thing.
是的，确实如此，因为这就像有人评判我的爸爸，这并不是一件坏事。
A lot of people do that.
很多人都这样做。
But you know, just kind of feels a little weird.
但你知道，只是感觉有点奇怪。
Like on the inside, it makes me feel like I'm going to scream and do something like that.
就像在内心深处，这让我感觉我要尖叫并做类似的事情。
What are the things that you wish that people would say?
您希望人们说些什么？
Probably it's OK that that has happened.
发生这种事或许没什么问题。
And we can help you with feeling better and understanding you.
我们可以帮助您感觉更好并理解您。
That's probably something I'd want somebody to say.
这可能是我希望有人说的话。
Once a child knows how their loved one died, they're encouraged to say it out loud.
一旦孩子知道他们所爱的人是如何去世的，他们就会被鼓励大声说出来。
There's a kind of sorcery to it, naming the dragon so you can defeat it.
它有一种巫术，给龙命名，这样你就可以打败它。
I sat in on the suicide group, which is different than the other groups in that kids tend to come to meetings for a longer period of time, partly because they didn't get to say goodbye.
我参加了自杀小组，该小组与其他小组不同，孩子们往往会花更长的时间参加会议，部分原因是他们没有机会说再见。
The kids sit a circle at the beginning of the meeting and hand around a talking stick.
孩子们在会议开始时围坐一圈，并递上一根会说话的棍子。
One by one, they say their name, who died, and how they died.
他们一一说出自己的名字、死者以及死因。
My name is Elias, and the person who died was my dad.
我的名字是埃利亚斯，死者是我的父亲。
And he died by shooting his self with a gun.
他用枪自杀了。
And he wanted to die.
他想死。
Hello, my name is Lindsey.
你好，我叫林赛。
My dad died.
我爸爸死了。
He died by suicide.
他自杀身亡。
And I regret not seeing him, because I hadn't seen him for a couple of months before his death.
我很遗憾没有见到他，因为在他去世前我已经有几个月没有见到他了。
There's also a different question they respond to each time they meet.
他们每次见面都会回答不同的问题。
What do you miss most about the person?
你最想念这个人的什么？
Is there anything you don't miss?
有什么是你不想错过的吗？
Tonight's question is, what do you regret?
今晚的问题是，你后悔什么？
My name is Ethan, and the person who died is my dad.
我叫伊森，死者是我爸爸。
He died by shooting his self in the head.
他开枪自杀。
And I don't know if I have any regrets.
而且我不知道我是否还有遗憾。
I just can't remember.
我就是不记得了。
It can take a long time for them to get to this point, where they can say the word suicide.
他们可能需要很长时间才能达到可以说出“自杀”这个词的程度。
The Sharing Place never corrects any of the kids or forces them to say anything they don't want to.
共享空间从不纠正任何孩子或强迫他们说任何他们不想说的话。
But they notice when a child is finally able to say it.
但当孩子终于能够说出这句话时，他们会注意到。
The night I was there, Aidan, the nine-year-old I talked to who had a hard time saying the word suicide, was finally able to say it in group.
我在那里的那天晚上，我采访的九岁女孩艾丹（Aidan）曾经很难说出“自杀”这个词，但现在终于能够在集体中说出这个词了。
So how about Aidan?
那么艾丹呢？
Jonathan Goldstein The volunteers sat around and talked about it afterwards.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦 志愿者们随后围坐在一起谈论这件事。
It was hard for him, I could tell.
我看得出来，这对他来说很难。
He wasn't about to say it, but he said it.
他本不想说，但他还是说了。
And I was proud of him.
我为他感到骄傲。
But it took him probably at least a minute to actually get those words out.
但他可能至少花了一分钟才真正把这句话说出来。
And he had to ask his mom if it was OK to say.
他必须问他妈妈是否可以这么说。
So she wasn't coaching him?
所以她没有辅导他？
Volunteer 1 Nope.
志愿者 1 不。
No. He was good.
不，他很好。
Jonathan Goldstein On the other hand, Aidan's brother, Gavin, the six-year-old, talks about his dad's suicide incessantly.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦 另一方面，艾丹六岁的弟弟加文不停地谈论他父亲的自杀事件。
He also draws guns during playtime and even sculpts them out of Play-Doh.
他还在玩耍时拔枪，甚至用培乐多 (Play-Doh) 雕刻它们。
This is Jill Macfarlane again.
这又是吉尔·麦克法兰。
He tells everybody at school, "My dad shot his brains." And it freaks everybody out.
他告诉学校里的每个人，“我爸爸开枪射杀了他的大脑。”这让每个人都吓坏了。
And so then he gets in trouble at school, which then he was like, well, I guess I can't ever talk about my dad.
然后他在学校遇到了麻烦，然后他就想，好吧，我想我永远不能谈论我的父亲。
But this is how kindergartners talk and process things.
但这就是幼儿园孩子们说话和处理事情的方式。
It's just easy for them to talk about.
他们很容易谈论。
But it scares other people.
但这会吓到其他人。
Is it OK for other kids in their class to hear that kind of thing?
班上的其他孩子听到这样的话可以吗？
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
I mean, is there a right answer to that?
我的意思是，有正确答案吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know either.
我也不知道。
If I were a parent, I'm not sure I'd want my kid hearing that kind of thing at school.
如果我是一名家长，我不确定我是否希望我的孩子在学校听到这种事情。
And while Jill doesn't have an answer, she does think kids being allowed to express themselves is much healthier than sending them a message that it's wrong to say this kind of stuff out loud.
虽然吉尔没有答案，但她确实认为允许孩子们表达自己比向他们发送信息说大声说这种话是错误的要健康得多。
And that's got to be a step in the right direction.
这一定是朝着正确方向迈出的一步。
I have very, very, very fond memories of this place.
我对这个地方有非常非常美好的回忆。
I actually tried to come through the side door, because that was the door that I always came in through.
事实上我试图从侧门进来，因为那是我总是从那扇门进来的。
Then I was like, I can use the adult entrance, finally.
然后我想，我终于可以使用成人入口了。
Sara Mohammed hasn't been to The Sharing Place for a full six years.
萨拉·穆罕默德 (Sara Mohammed) 已经整整六年没有去过共享广场了。
She's 21 now.
她现在21岁了。
But when she was 11, her older brother hanged himself.
但当她11岁时，她的哥哥上吊自杀了。
Even though he was supposed to be babysitting her, her parents had told her to keep an eye out on him because of his past suicide attempts.
尽管他本应照顾她，但她的父母却告诉她要留意他，因为他过去曾企图自杀。
Obviously what happened wasn't her fault, but she blamed herself, which is something I heard other kids here talk about too.
显然发生的事情不是她的错，但她责怪自己，这也是我听到这里其他孩子谈论的事情。
It's easy for an adult to say, don't be silly.
成年人很容易说，别傻了。
It's not your fault.
这不是你的错。
But it's a whole other thing to talk with a kid at The Sharing Place who says, I know exactly what you're talking about.
但与共享场所的一个孩子交谈时，他说“我完全知道你在说什么”，那就完全是另一回事了。
It was kind of nice seeing the older kids whose loved ones had been gone for a few years, how they were able to go to school normally and just live their normal lives, because I just didn't want to go to school.
很高兴看到那些已经失去亲人几年的大孩子，他们能够正常上学并过上正常的生活，因为我只是不想上学。
I didn't want to be with kids who just didn't know.
我不想和那些不知道的孩子在一起。
It was too hard.
太难了。
I asked Sara if there was a turning point, a moment when she began to feel like maybe she was doing a little better.
我问莎拉是否有一个转折点，在那一刻她开始觉得自己可能做得更好了一些。
She said, yes.
她说，是的。
She was in the courtyard with a bunch of other kids.
她和其他一群孩子在院子里。
We were just out there painting rocks or something for a fundraiser.
我们只是在外面为筹款活动画石头或其他东西。
And we were just talking, just talking like normal.
我们只是聊天，就像平常一样聊天。
And I realized that I hadn't had a conversation like that in about a year, just where I felt 100% free, and just laughing and not feeling guilty about laughing, and just happy.
我意识到我已经有大约一年没有进行过这样的谈话了，我感觉 100% 自由，只是笑，并不因为笑而感到内疚，只是很高兴。
And yeah, that was really the first time in a good nine months after my brother had passed that I felt OK.
是的，这确实是我哥哥去世九个月以来我第一次感觉很好。
It's the kids themselves who decide when they're ready to stop coming to The Sharing Place.
孩子们自己决定何时准备好停止来到共享空间。
But on average, they stay about two years.
但平均而言，他们会停留两年左右。
When they're ready to leave, they have to announce their intention two times in group before their final goodbye.
当他们准备离开时，他们必须在最后的告别前两次集体宣布他们的意图。
Any of you that would like to say something to him, which I'm sure several of you will?
你们中有人想对他说点什么吗？我相信你们中的一些人会的？
The goodbye is ceremonial.
告别是有仪式感的。
And on the last night I was there, at the end of the meeting, they said goodbye to a kid name Robby.
在我在那里的最后一晚，会议结束时，他们向一个名叫罗比的孩子告别。
He sat in the circle with the other kids and volunteers.
他与其他孩子和志愿者围成一圈。
And anybody who wanted to could pick up the talking stick and say a few words.
任何愿意的人都可以拿起会说话的棍子说几句话。
His friend, Jessica, was the last kid to do so.
他的朋友杰西卡是最后一个这样做的孩子。
I'll definitely miss you, because you're like one of my best friends in this group.
我一定会想念你的，因为你就像我在这个团体中最好的朋友之一。
And I'll miss seeing you.
我会想念你的。
And our major fight that we had in the volcano room, it was not my fault.
我们在火山房间里发生的大争执，不是我的错。
Yes, you did.
是的，你做到了。
Jessica No. It was just really fun, and I'm going to miss seeing you and miss hanging out with you.
杰西卡 不。这真的很有趣，我会想念见到你并想念和你一起出去玩的。
At Robby's last meeting, there was a kid who'd just shown up.
在罗比的上次会议上，有一个孩子刚刚出现。
It was his first meeting.
这是他第一次见面。
He had long bangs hanging over his eyes and, except for his name, didn't say anything the whole time.
他长长的刘海垂在眼睛上，除了自己的名字之外，自始至终没有说什么。
Whenever a new person joins, the veteran kids have a chance to gauge their own progress, to remember what they were like when they first showed up, and think about how bad it used to be, and how now it isn't as bad.
每当有新人加入时，老员工就有机会衡量自己的进步，记住他们第一次出现时的情况，并思考过去有多糟糕，以及现在如何没有那么糟糕。
And ultimately, like Robby, they'll make way for someone on the long waiting list, a list on which new names are added all the time.
最终，就像罗比一样，他们将为长长的等待名单上的某个人让路，这个名单上一直会添加新的名字。
They'll say, "I think it's time to go." And then they'll say it again.
他们会说：“我想是时候离开了。”然后他们会再说一遍。
Jonathan Goldstein is host of the CBC radio show and podcast, Wiretap.
乔纳森·戈尔茨坦 (Jonathan Goldstein) 是 CBC 广播节目和播客 Wiretap 的主持人。
[MUSIC - "TEACH THE GIFTED CHLIDREN," BY LOU REED]
[音乐 - “教导天才儿童”，作者：卢·里德]
Our program was produced today by Robyn Semien with Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Stephanie Foo, Ira Glass, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Robyn Semien 与 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Stephanie Foo、Ira Glass、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Editing help from Joel Lovell, production help from Simon Adler.
乔尔·洛弗尔 (Joel Lovell) 提供编辑帮助，西蒙·阿德勒 (Simon Adler) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon is our production manager.
艾米丽·康登 (Emily Condon) 是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our office manager.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Christopher Swetala.
米歇尔·哈里斯和克里斯托弗·斯韦塔拉的研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
[ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS] Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
[致谢] 我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks today to my boss, Ira Glass, who was very gracious in handing over today's show, at first.
今天要感谢我的老板艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass)，他一开始就非常慷慨地移交了今天的演出。
But then, in the last day or so, I think he's a little bored or something.
但后来，在最后一天左右，我觉得他有点无聊什么的。
He keeps popping his head in randomly.
他总是随意地把头探进去。
I'm Spider-Man.
我是蜘蛛侠。
So you can do whatever I tell you to do.
所以你可以做我告诉你做的任何事情。
I'm Chana Joffe-Walt.
我是查娜·乔夫-沃尔特。
Ira will be back next week with more stories of This American Life .
艾拉将于下周带着更多《美国生活》的故事回来。
[MUSIC - "TEACH THE GIFTED CHLIDREN," BY LOU REED]
[音乐 - “教导天才儿童”，作者：卢·里德]
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。