555: The Incredible Rarity of Changing Your Mind - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #555 | April 24, 2015 555: The Incredible Rarity of Changing Your Mind Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 555 集 | 2015 年 4 月 24 日 555：改变主意的罕见性 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass OK.
序言 艾拉·格拉斯 好的。
Take a second right now and just think about this.
现在花点时间想想这个。
When it comes to the big hot button issues-- I mean climate change, and gun control, and abortion rights, and school vouchers, and affirmative action, and Obamacare-- OK.
当谈到重大热点问题时——我指的是气候变化、枪支管制、堕胎权、学券、平权行动和奥巴马医改——好的。
Do you know anybody who has changed their minds?
你知道有谁改变了主意吗？
Who firmly was on one side of the issue, and then they read a story in The New York Times or they heard something on Rush Limbaugh, and now they are firmly on the other side?
谁坚定地站在问题的一边，然后他们在《纽约时报》上读到一篇报道，或者他们在拉什·林博上听到一些东西，现在他们坚定地站在另一边？
I'm just going to guess.
我只是猜测一下。
Probably not, right?
可能不会，对吧？
In fact, the opposite happens.
事实上，情况恰恰相反。
There's this thing called the backfire effect.
有一种东西叫做逆火效应。
It's been documented in all kinds of studies.
它已被记录在各种研究中。
It shows that when we're confronted with evidence disapproving what we believe, generally we just dig in and we believe it more.
它表明，当我们面对与我们所相信的相反的证据时，通常我们只是深入挖掘，然后我们更加相信它。
And the rare times that people do change, it's slow.
人们很少会改变，而且改变的速度很慢。
You don't just have an argument with your uncle over the invasion of Iraq over dinner, and then at the end of dinner, one of you goes, OK, I no longer believe what I did, you're right.
你不会只是在晚餐时和你的叔叔就入侵伊拉克问题发生争执，然后在晚餐结束时，你们中的一个人说，好吧，我不再相信我所做的事情，你是对的。
People just don't flip like that, which is why this video is so incredible.
人们只是不会那样发脾气，这就是为什么这个视频如此令人难以置信。
OK.
好的。
So there are two men standing in a driveway.
所以有两个男人站在车道上。
There's a canvasser with a clipboard.
有一个带剪贴板的文字收集者。
And he's talking to a California voter about gay marriage and it's 2013.
现在是 2013 年，他正在与一位加州选民谈论同性婚姻。
And the voter leans against his truck for a lot of the conversation.
大部分谈话中，选民都靠在他的卡车上。
He tells the canvasser that on a scale of zero to 10, where 10 is definitely vote for gay marriage and zero is definitely vote against, he's a five.
他告诉游说者，按照从 0 到 10 的比例，其中 10 肯定投票支持同性婚姻，0 肯定投票反对，他是 5。
You know-- you know what bothers me is gays that are flaming.
你知道——你知道让我烦恼的是那些火热的同性恋者。
Flaming are the ones that are just so damn goofy and all that.
燃烧的是那些非常愚蠢的东西。
He sort of flips his wrist as he says this.
他说这句话的时候手腕有点翻转。
I worked with one for probably like five or 10 years.
我和其中一位合作了大概五到十年。
He was my father's wife's brother.
他是我父亲的妻子的兄弟。
And I didn't even know he was gay.
而且我什至不知道他是同性恋。
But he was just really-- he had five sisters.
但他确实——他有五个姐妹。
And I just thought he was feminine.
我只是觉得他很有女人味。
And finally he came out and he said he was gay.
最后他出柜了，说他是同性恋。
When they act like that-- to me, I don't care if they do it to other people-- but don't do it to me.
当他们这样做时——对我来说，我不在乎他们是否对其他人这样做——但不要对我这样做。
Because I don't-- you know.
因为我不——你知道。
At the same time, this guy says, he thinks it's only fair that gay people get the benefits of marriage, and they can get on their partner's insurance.
与此同时，这个家伙说，他认为同性恋者获得婚姻的好处是公平的，而且他们可以获得伴侣的保险。
And he knows other people who are gay that are perfectly nice, even that flaming guy.
他认识其他非常友善的同性恋者，甚至包括那个火爆的家伙。
Perfectly nice.
非常好。
They're just regular people, he says.
他说，他们只是普通人。
They talk for 18 minutes.
他们聊了18分钟。
And the guy with the clipboard-- he's not a pollster.
还有那个拿着剪贴板的人——他不是民意调查专家。
He's been sent out specifically to change people's minds on this issue.
他被专门派去改变人们对这个问题的看法。
To try to flip them into voting for gay marriage.
试图让他们投票支持同性婚姻。
And so part of the conversation is just about the issue itself, like the pros and cons of gay marriage.
因此，谈话的一部分只是关于问题本身，比如同性婚姻的利弊。
Does the voter think it'll have a bad effect on children?
选民认为这会对儿童产生不良影响吗？
What are his concerns about it?
他对此有何顾虑？
The voter explains.
选民解释道。
The religious thing would hold me back a little bit.
宗教的事情会让我有点退缩。
Just because.
只是因为。
OK.
好的。
Voter I believe in God strongly.
选民 我坚信上帝。
And I believe in his ways.
我相信他的方式。
But a lot of the conversation is just them talking in this totally honest way about themselves, and their attitudes about homosexuality, and the voter's experiences with homosexuals.
但很多谈话只是他们以完全诚实的方式谈论自己、他们对同性恋的态度以及选民与同性恋者的经历。
The canvasser-- his name is Richard Joludow-- is gay himself.
这位游说者的名字叫理查德·乔卢多（Richard Joludow），他本人也是同性恋。
Not flamboyant gay, by the way.
顺便说一句，不是华丽的同性恋。
Silver hair, goatee, a contractor in the construction business.
银发、山羊胡，建筑行业的承包商。
And here's just how real and free-floating this conversation is.
这就是这次对话是多么真实和自由。
At one point, the voter feels comfortable enough to ask him--
有一次，选民感到很舒服，可以问他——
At what point did you realize you were gay?
你什么时候意识到自己是同性恋？
How does a child realize they're gay?
孩子如何意识到自己是同性恋？
You know, that's a hard-- I could think back to third grade.
你知道，这很难——我可以回想起三年级的时候。
And I had a crush on a boy in the class.
我还暗恋过班里的一个男生。
And it wasn't sexual.
而且这不是性的。
I didn't know what that was.
我不知道那是什么。
But I can still remember kind of what he looks like.
但我仍然记得他的样子。
I'm pretty sure I remember his name still.
我很确定我还记得他的名字。
And I remember being heartbroken when he left early in the first part of the semester there.
我记得当他在学期的第一部分提前离开时，我感到心碎。
And some people think that being gay is a choice.
有些人认为同性恋是一种选择。
I was talking with a voter and was telling me he thought it was a choice.
我正在与一位选民交谈，并告诉我他认为这是一个选择。
And I said my choice was to accept being gay.
我说我的选择是接受同性恋。
And of course, I tried to be straight.
当然，我也努力保持直率。
And that just wasn't working.
但这行不通。
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
如果不起作用，那就不起作用。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
And then at that point, the canvasser, Richard, very skillfully brings them back to the topic at hand.
就在那时，文字布道者理查德非常巧妙地将他们带回了手头的话题。
So your vote has a lot of influence on how my life goes.
所以你的投票对我的生活有很大的影响。
I'm with somebody now that I'm hoping to get engaged or go and have a full-out marriage.
我现在和一个人在一起，我希望订婚或者结束一段完整的婚姻。
So your vote would be very important to-- it would affect my life.
所以你的投票非常重要——它将影响我的生活。
Your life and a lot of other people, too.
你的生活，还有很多其他人的生活。
That's a lot to think about, too.
这也有很多值得思考的地方。
Cause after meeting you, you're a hell of a nice guy.
因为遇见你之后，你是一个非常好的人。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Ira Glass Then Richard asked the voter for a second time, OK, on a scale of zero to 10, what's the chance that he would vote for gay marriage?
Ira Glass 然后理查德第二次问选民，好吧，从 0 到 10，他投票支持同性婚姻的机会有多大？
His answer the first time was five.
他第一次的回答是五。
Now it's eight.
现在是八点。
Barely 14 minutes have passed.
还不到14分钟过去。
Thank you, sir.
谢谢您，先生。
Ira Glass And even more amazing than the fact that this actually worked is that it lasted.
Ira Glass 比这确实有效的事实更令人惊奇的是它持续了。
Richard was part of an army of hundreds of volunteers around Los Angeles who were sent out to change people's minds.
理查德是洛杉矶各地数百名志愿者组成的大军中的一员，他们被派去改变人们的想法。
And a study by researchers at UCLA and Columbia University found that a year later, not only did these voters stay convinced, they also convinced others in their own households to switch.
加州大学洛杉矶分校和哥伦比亚大学的研究人员进行的一项研究发现，一年后，这些选民不仅仍然坚信这一点，而且还说服了自己家里的其他人改变立场。
Apparently neither of those things ever happens.
显然这些事情都没有发生过。
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our radio program, in this world where it is incredibly rare for anyone to change their minds, we have three stories about the very infrequent instances where that does happen, where people change their minds over fundamental things that they believe.
今天，在我们的广播节目中，在这个很少有人改变主意的世界里，我们提供了三个故事，讲述了这种情况确实发生的非常罕见的情况，即人们对他们所相信的基本事物改变了主意。
Why does it happen in these particular unusual circumstances?
为什么会在这些特殊的不寻常情况下发生？
We explain.
我们解释一下。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
Act One: Do Ask, Do Tell Ira Glass And let's just keep going with this story.
第一幕：问、告诉 Ira Glass 让我们继续讲这个故事。
This story is Act One, which we're calling Do Ask, Do Tell.
这个故事是第一幕，我们称之为“Do Ask, Do Tell”。
Where that video you just heard came from was a very unusual campaign to change voters' minds in California.
您刚刚听到的那个视频来自一场非常不寻常的运动，目的是改变加州选民的想法。
And the campaign came about because of desperation.
这项运动是出于绝望而发起的。
It was created in the wake of the 2008 election.
它是在 2008 年大选后创建的。
And you may remember one of things on the ballot in that election was California's Proposition 8, Prop 8.
你可能还记得那次选举中选票上的一件事是加州的第 8 号提案，即第 8 号提案。
At the time, gay marriage was officially legal in California-- had been legal for half a year.
当时，同性婚姻在加州正式合法——已经合法半年了。
Then opponents of gay marriage gathered signatures, put the issue on the ballot.
然后同性婚姻的反对者聚集签名，将这个问题放在选票上。
Not the gay organizers were worried-- in fact, anything but.
同性恋组织者并不担心——事实上，一点也不担心。
Polls had them solidly ahead.
民意调查显示他们遥遥领先。
Hey, liberal, progressive California.
嘿，自由、进步的加州。
This is a no-brainer.
这是理所当然的。
And we lost.
我们输了。
Steve Deline is a field organizer with the Leadership LAB at the Los Angeles LGBT Center, which is a very large multimillion-dollar nonprofit, the biggest LGBT organization in the world.
Steve Deline 是洛杉矶 LGBT 中心领导力实验室的现场组织者，该中心是一个耗资数百万美元的大型非营利组织，也是世界上最大的 LGBT 组织。
We lost by a decent margin.
我们以相当大的差距输掉了比赛。
And it was devastating.
这是毁灭性的。
Because everyone in California and beyond expected us to win that election.
因为加利福尼亚州及其他地区的每个人都期望我们赢得那次选举。
People were shocked and angry and despairing.
人们感到震惊、愤怒和绝望。
That's Dave Fleischer.
那是戴夫·弗莱舍。
He's a political operative that the Los Angeles LGBT Center flew in to figure out what in the world they were going to do after this defeat.
他是一名政治特工，洛杉矶 LGBT 中心飞来探望他们在这次失败后到底要做什么。
It was his idea to go out and do something that apparently is just never done.
他的想法是出去做一些显然从未做过的事情。
Let's go to the neighborhoods where we got crushed and talk to the people who voted against us and ask them why they did that.
让我们去那些我们被压垮的社区，与那些投票反对我们的人交谈，询问他们为什么这样做。
And when I suggested the idea, Ira, to be totally honest, I didn't know if those voters would talk with us.
当我提出这个想法时，艾拉，说实话，我不知道那些选民是否会与我们交谈。
I'd never done anything like this.
我从来没有做过这样的事。
Not only had he never done anything like this, he'd never heard of anybody else doing it, either.
他不但没有做过这样的事，也没有听说过其他人做过这样的事。
And he'd been in politics for over 40 years-- the campaign manager for candidates in New York City, organizing minority voters in Ohio, organizing for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.
他从政已有 40 多年——担任纽约市候选人的竞选经理、组织俄亥俄州的少数族裔选民、组织全国男女同性恋工作组。
I've been doing political work my whole adult life.
我成年后一直从事政治工作。
I've been doing organizing since I was a boy.
我从小就开始做组织工作。
And conventional wisdom among political practitioners is you don't talk to the people who are against you.
政治从业者的传统智慧是，你不要与反对你的人交谈。
OK, note what he's saying here.
好吧，请注意他在这里所说的话。
It's not just that you don't try to swing them over to your side.
这不仅仅是因为你不尝试将他们转向你这边。
You don't talk to them at all.
你根本不跟他们说话。
You spend your time and energy talking first to people who completely agree with you to make sure they vote.
你花时间和精力首先与完全同意你的人交谈，以确保他们投票。
And then you go to this tiny, tiny, tiny-- and I mean tiny-- universe of people who you've detected as quote-unquote "undecided," which itself is a very misleading term.
然后你就进入这个微小、微小、微小——我是说微小——的人的世界，你发现他们是“犹豫不决”的人，这本身就是一个非常误导性的术语。
And that's it.
就是这样。
Until he said this to me, it had never occurred to me that all the billions of dollars spent on politics in this country is mostly making messages that say, you already love this or you already fear that.
在他对我说这句话之前，我从来没有想到，这个国家在政治上花费的数十亿美元大多是在传达这样的信息：你已经喜欢这个，或者你已经害怕那个。
So here's how you should vote.
因此，您应该如何投票。
There's not much effort to change anybody's underlying political beliefs, to get your opponents to agree with you.
没有太多努力可以改变任何人的基本政治信仰，让你的对手同意你的观点。
So now Dave was going to send dozens of volunteers into Los Angeles neighborhoods that had overwhelmingly voted against them to talk.
因此，现在戴夫将派遣数十名志愿者前往洛杉矶社区，这些社区绝大多数投票反对他们进行谈话。
And because nobody ever does this, field organizer Steve Deline says the first question was--
因为从来没有人这样做过，现场组织者史蒂夫·德利恩说第一个问题是——
First-- I mean, I'll be honest.
首先——我的意思是，我会说实话。
At first, it was just seeing if we could even have a conversation with someone who didn't agree with us.
起初，我们只是想看看我们是否可以与不同意我们观点的人进行对话。
If they would even talk to us.
如果他们愿意和我们说话就好了。
That was literally the first part of the experiment.
这实际上是实验的第一部分。
The organizers had assumed that these voters were against gay marriage because they didn't know any gay people.
组织者认为这些选民反对同性婚姻，因为他们不认识任何同性恋者。
And the first surprise was most of them did.
第一个惊喜是他们中的大多数人都这么做了。
But they'd never sat down and had a real conversation about homosexuality in their lives.
但他们在生活中从未坐下来真正讨论过同性恋问题。
And figuring out what to say to these voters to change their minds about gay marriage?
并弄清楚该对这些选民说些什么来改变他们对同性婚姻的看法？
It took them a really long time to figure that out.
他们花了很长时间才弄清楚这一点。
It was not obvious at all how to do it.
到底如何做并不明显。
And they tried lots of stuff that just fizzled.
他们尝试了很多东西，但都以失败告终。
And the missteps are actually kind of interesting, because they point to what does not work and what does work to get any of us to change our minds.
这些失误实际上很有趣，因为它们指出了哪些措施不起作用，哪些措施有效，可以让我们中的任何人改变主意。
Like for instance, the first thing that they tried was an appeal to idealism, to principles.
例如，他们尝试的第一件事就是诉诸理想主义、诉诸原则。
Stuff we all agree with.
我们都同意的事情。
Like this is about equality.
就像这就是平等。
It's about the golden rule and treating each other the way we want to be treated.
这是关于黄金法则以及以我们希望被对待的方式对待彼此。
The problem with that, they found, is that it kept the conversation at this very rational, reasonable, intellectual level.
他们发现，这样做的问题在于，它使对话保持在非常理性、合理、理智的水平上。
And that's not where people make their decisions about issues like this.
人们不会在这样的问题上做出决定。
People make their decisions about how they're going to vote on this at a gut level.
人们凭直觉做出如何投票的决定。
And at a visceral level.
并且是在发自内心的层面上。
And at an emotional level.
并且在情感层面上。
If anything, talking to people about ideals like equality and what marriage means actually made canvassers miss opportunities to talk about stuff that would be way more effective.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是与人们谈论平等和婚姻意味着什么等理想，实际上让游说者错过了谈论更有效的事情的机会。
Like with this voter, who voted against gay marriage for religious reasons.
就像这位选民一样，他出于宗教原因投票反对同性婚姻。
I have two very good male friends that want to get married.
我有两个非常要好的男性朋友想要结婚。
What are their names?
他们的名字是什么？
Voter [BLEEP] and [BLEEP].
投票者[BLEEP]和[BLEEP]。
We're beeping their names to protect their privacy.
我们大声喊出他们的名字是为了保护他们的隐私。
And do [BLEEP] and [BLEEP] know how you feel about this issue?
[BLEEP] 和 [BLEEP] 知道你对这个问题的感受吗？
No. Canvasser They don't.
不，画布士 他们没有。
How do you think they would feel if they were aware of--
你认为如果他们知道的话会有什么感觉——
[BLEEP] is a very good friend of mine.
[BLEEP] 是我的一个非常好的朋友。
Extremely good friend of mine.
我的一个非常好的朋友。
And I think he would be disappointed.
我想他会失望的。
But he's never asked me how I felt about it.
但他从来没有问过我对此有何感受。
Sure.
当然。
And so it sounds like you're very fair.
所以听起来你很公平。
You want people to have the same rights.
你希望人们拥有同样的权利。
A plane's coming in so it's hard to hear.
飞机即将飞来，所以很难听到。
But the canvasser's saying, "It sounds like you want people to have the same rights as other Americans." And right there, Steve says, by doing that, the canvasser has made a mistake.
但游说者说：“听起来你希望人们拥有与其他美国人相同的权利。”史蒂夫说，就在那里，拉票员这样做就犯了一个错误。
Because she's moving the conversation away from the personal and the emotional, towards these abstract ideas of equality and equal rights.
因为她正在将谈话从个人和情感转移到平等和平等权利的抽象概念上。
It's kind of retreating from the thing that is probably on the canvasser's mind, but she's maybe a little nervous to ask, which is why don't you want [BLEEP] to get married if he means this much to you?
这有点像是从推销员心里可能想到的事情中撤退，但她可能会有点紧张地问，这就是为什么你不希望[BLEEP]结婚，如果他对你来说这么重要？
Basically, we don't know anything about [BLEEP].
基本上，我们对 [BLEEP] 一无所知。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
When did she find out that he was gay?
她什么时候发现他是同性恋的？
What did she feel like when she first found out that he was gay?
当她第一次发现他是同性恋时，她有什么感觉？
Did it scare her?
吓到她了吗？
Was it no big deal?
没什么大不了的吗？
Have they been able to talk about it?
他们能够谈论这件事吗？
Does she know his partner?
她认识他的伴侣吗？
All these things that would help us understand, OK, you know someone who's gay, but you're still worried what might happen if he got married.
所有这些事情都会帮助我们理解，好吧，你认识一个同性恋者，但你仍然担心如果他结婚会发生什么。
So what's that all about, you know?
那么这到底是怎么回事，你知道吗？
This is what they learned-- to stop telling people things.
这就是他们学到的——停止告诉别人事情。
That they should have no road map for the conversation.
他们不应该有对话的路线图。
Instead, the canvassers could talk personally about their own experiences.
相反，文字布道者可以亲自谈论他们自己的经历。
That seemed to help and connect with voters.
这似乎有助于并与选民建立联系。
But that, by itself, was not enough.
但这本身还不够。
The most important thing they could do was, they had to listen.
他们能做的最重要的事情就是必须倾听。
And when the voter gave a clue about something that seemed real and emotional and important to them, find out more.
当选民给出一些对他们来说似乎真实、情感丰富且重要的线索时，请了解更多信息。
See where it leads.
看看它通向何方。
And I think the big revelation was that our job was actually to go and give them the chance to talk about their own life.
我认为最大的启示是我们的工作实际上是去给他们机会谈论自己的生活。
And realize that maybe that led them to conclusions that were a little different than they'd thought.
并意识到，也许这导致他们得出的结论与他们想象的有些不同。
The very first conversation that captured this new approach on video was this voter that they all came to call Mustang Man, because the interview happened in the guy's driveway with this beautiful vintage Mustang that he was very proud of that had been his wife's.
在视频中捕捉到这种新方法的第一个对话是这位选民，他们都称他为“野马人”，因为采访发生在这个人的车道上，他开着这辆漂亮的老式野马，他对此感到非常自豪，那是他妻子的。
Some people say, "When my wife died, it broke my heart." Well, no. It didn't break my heart.
有人说：“当我妻子去世时，我的心都碎了。”嗯，不。它并没有伤我的心。
It put a hole in it.
它在里面打了一个洞。
And it won't heal.
而且不会痊愈。
My wife's been gone 11 years now.
我妻子已经去世 11 年了。
It feels more like 11 days.
感觉更像是11天。
I've never gotten over my wife.
我从来没有忘记过我的妻子。
The canvasser here is actually Dave Fleischer, the guy whose idea it was to originally go out and talk to voters.
这里的游说者实际上是戴夫·弗莱舍（Dave Fleischer），他的想法最初是出去与选民交谈。
And he does not say anything at all to this guy about ideals.
而且他根本没有对这个家伙说任何关于理想的事情。
He doesn't pitch him any reasons to vote for gay marriage.
他没有向他提供任何投票支持同性婚姻的理由。
Instead, he asks about the gay people in this guy's life.
相反，他询问了这个人生活中的同性恋者。
And mostly, he just stands there as the voter just sort of connect the dots in his own life that he had never bothered to connect before.
大多数情况下，他只是站在那里，作为选民，将他自己生活中以前从未费心去连接的点连接起来。
And then marriage, I can even tell, just the way you talk about her--
然后是婚姻，我什至可以看出，就像你谈论她的方式一样——
I would want these gay people to be happy, too.
我也希望这些同性恋者能够幸福。
I've got a gay couple across the street there.
我在街对面有一对同性恋夫妇。
She's a lesbian.
她是一名女同性恋。
And I get along just great with them.
我和他们相处得很好。
In fact, she parks her car in my yard because we got so many cars here, people have no place to park in the street.
事实上，她把车停在我的院子里，因为我们这里的车太多了，人们在街上没有地方停车。
So I let her park here.
所以我让她把车停在这里。
And they're wonderful people.
他们都是很棒的人。
They don't bother anybody.
他们不打扰任何人。
You don't see them trying to hit on other women or whatever.
你不会看到他们试图勾搭其他女人或其他什么。
They're happy.
他们很高兴。
Just like I was with my wife.
就像我和我妻子在一起一样。
You know this issue is going to come up for a vote again in the future.
你知道这个问题将来会再次被提出来进行投票。
Vote in favor of allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry?
投票赞成允许同性恋伴侣结婚？
Why does that feel right to you?
为什么你觉得这样是对的？
Let's see.
让我们来看看。
[SIGHS] How would I say that?
[叹气]我该怎么说呢？
I would hope that they would find the happiness that I had with mine.
我希望他们能找到我所拥有的幸福。
If you could have that kind of relationship with your partner or the other sex, I would say you're a very lucky person.
如果你能与你的伴侣或异性建立这样的关系，我会说你是一个非常幸运的人。
Because I know I had it.
因为我知道我拥有它。
But yeah, that's what I would wish on them.
但是，是的，这就是我对他们的希望。
That they'd be as happy as I was with mine.
他们会像我和我的孩子一样快乐。
Irrelevant by getting with the other sex.
与异性交往无关。
Ira Glass It did occur to the organizers that as sincere as these conversations seemed, maybe the voters were just being polite at the end.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 组织者确实意识到，尽管这些对话看起来很真诚，但也许选民最终只是出于礼貌。
And when they said they would vote for gay marriage, they were just saying what they thought the canvassers wanted to hear-- hadn't really changed their minds.
当他们说他们会投票支持同性婚姻时，他们只是说出了他们认为游说者想听的话——并没有真正改变主意。
Which is why they invited in two political scientists-- one from UCLA named Michael LaCour, another from Columbia University named Donald Green-- who designed a case controlled study that was eventually published in the journal Science .
这就是为什么他们邀请了两位政治学家——一位来自加州大学洛杉矶分校，名叫迈克尔·拉库尔，另一位来自哥伦比亚大学，名叫唐纳德·格林——他们设计了一项病例对照研究，最终发表在《科学》杂志上。
Green told me that he expected the results would show--
格林告诉我，他预计结果会显示——
Short-term effects.
短期影响。
I thought that those effects would subside in a few days' time.
我以为这些影响会在几天内消退。
He thought that because pretty much, that's what always happens.
他这么认为是因为这种事经常发生。
It's rare for people to change your opinions.
人们很少改变你的观点。
And it's temporary.
这是暂时的。
Because very often in public opinion research, which you tend to see in the wake of political events, is a short-term bump followed by a kind of re-equilibration to a pre-existing baseline.
因为在公共舆论研究中，你往往会在政治事件发生后看到这种情况，通常是短期的上涨，然后是对预先存在的基线的重新平衡。
In other words, people go back to believing what they used to.
换句话说，人们又回到了过去相信的事情。
And the big surprise was six months, nine months, a year after the canvassers visited, the voters stayed changed.
令人惊讶的是，在游说者访问六个月、九个月、一年后，选民仍然发生了变化。
The researchers were so skeptical that this could be real that they did the entire study a second time-- a huge cost, by the way.
研究人员非常怀疑这可能是真实的，因此他们第二次进行了整个研究——顺便说一句，这是一笔巨大的成本。
Hundreds of thousands of dollars.
几十万美元。
And again, the same result.
再次，同样的结果。
Professor Green says he and his colleagues have read 900 papers.
格林教授说他和他的同事已经阅读了 900 篇论文。
And they haven't seen anything like this result-- anyone who's changed people's views and it lasted like this.
他们还没有看到过这样的结果——任何人改变了人们的观点并且它能像这样持续下去。
But there's an important details in their findings.
但他们的发现中有一个重要的细节。
The voters who talked to straight canvassers-- they changed their opinions.
与直言不讳的游说者交谈的选民改变了他们的观点。
But it lasted just for a couple weeks.
但这种情况只持续了几周。
Then they went back to their original opinions.
然后他们又回到了原来的观点。
It was only the voters who talked to gay canvassers whose opinions changed and stayed changed a year later.
只有与同性恋游说者交谈的选民的观点发生了变化，并且一年后仍然保持变化。
For those voters, the numbers are impressive.
对于这些选民来说，这个数字令人印象深刻。
Before talking to the canvassers, 47% of these voters supported gay marriage.
在与游说者交谈之前，47％的选民支持同性婚姻。
Immediately after the canvas, it jumped six points higher.
画布一出，就跳高了六点。
And then a year later, it was even higher than that.
一年后，这个数字甚至更高。
It was 62%.
是 62%。
A total growth of 15%, which Steve Deline points out is--
Steve Deline 指出，总增长 15% 是——
More than enough added support to go from losing an election to winning one.
足够多的额外支持足以从选举失败变为获胜。
By the way, the control group-- voters who were not canvassed about gay marriage at all-- they also increased support for gay marriage that year.
顺便说一下，对照组——那些根本没有接受过同性婚姻问题调查的选民——当年也增加了对同性婚姻的支持。
Because we live in a country where attitudes are changing on this issue everywhere.
因为我们生活在一个各地对此问题的态度都在发生变化的国家。
But the control group only rose by three percentage points, much less than 15%.
但对照组仅上升了三个百分点，远低于 15%。
It seemed like they'd invented something new, a new tool to use to change people's opinions.
看起来他们发明了一些新东西，一种用来改变人们观点的新工具。
But they wondered if it only applied to this one issue.
但他们想知道这是否只适用于这一问题。
And maybe they picked an easy target, after all-- trying to flip people on an issue that the whole country was changing on anyway.
毕竟，也许他们选择了一个简单的目标——试图让人们改变对整个国家正在发生变化的问题的看法。
So they decided to try the new technique with an issue where public opinion has been deadlocked for years.
因此，他们决定尝试用新技术来解决多年来舆论陷入僵局的问题。
Abortion.
流产。
These canvassers, no surprise, were pro-choice.
毫不奇怪，这些游说者是支持堕胎的。
And they teamed up with Planned Parenthood to do the canvassing.
他们与计划生育联合会合作进行游说。
Hi.
你好。
We're talking to registered voters in your neighborhood today about their views on abortion.
我们今天正在与您附近的登记选民讨论他们对堕胎的看法。
A canvasser with a clipboard talks to a California voter through a screen door.
一名拿着剪贴板的拉票员透过纱门与一名加州选民交谈。
The canvasser's young with tattoos and a halter top.
推销员很年轻，有纹身，穿着吊带衫。
The voter's older and heavy-set with wire-rimmed glasses.
这位选民年纪较大，身材魁梧，戴着金属丝框眼镜。
She's a nurse.
她是一名护士。
And when asked where she is on a scale of zero to 10, where zero means women should have no access to abortion and 10 means they should have full access, she says zero.
当被问及她在 0 到 10 的等级中处于什么位置时，0 意味着女性不应该有堕胎机会，10 意味着她们应该完全获得堕胎机会，她说是 0。
She's Catholic, from Mexico.
她是天主教徒，来自墨西哥。
And then they start this conversation.
然后他们开始对话。
And here's how the canvasser tries to kick things off in a way that's going to get the voter talking about her real experiences and her real feelings on this very delicate issue.
以下是游说者如何试图以一种让选民谈论她在这个非常微妙的问题上的真实经历和真实感受的方式开始事情。
So abortion isn't something that a lot of people talk about, which is why we're out here today talking to people about abortion.
因此，堕胎并不是很多人谈论的事情，这就是为什么我们今天在这里与人们谈论堕胎。
Have you ever had a conversation with someone about your thoughts on abortion?
您是否曾与某人谈论过您对堕胎的看法？
Yes.
是的。
Ira Glass She says it was when they were teenagers, when each first got her period.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass）说，那是在他们十几岁的时候，每个人第一次来月经的时候。
How did that feel for you to talk to your daughters?
和你的女儿们谈话感觉如何？
It's not easy.
这并不容易。
Especially because in my country, they have taboos.
特别是因为在我的国家，他们有禁忌。
A lot of taboos.
禁忌很多。
My mother is one of the person, never talking about sexual relations or conceptions.
我的母亲就是其中之一，从不谈论性关系或受孕。
That's why I try to be very open with my daughters.
这就是为什么我尝试对我的女儿们非常开放。
My mother's from the Philippines.
我母亲来自菲律宾。
And my mother went through the same feeling.
我的母亲也有同样的感受。
It's not something that you talk about.
这不是你谈论的事情。
No. It's not.
不，不是。
And my family is the same.
我的家人也是一样。
My mother never talked to me about abortion.
我妈妈从来没有和我谈论过堕胎的事。
In fact, it was a really scary thing to talk about.
事实上，谈论这件事真的很可怕。
When I got my period, I was 12 years old.
当我来月经的时候，我12岁。
What follows is just an intensely real conversation about their lives.
接下来是关于他们生活的非常真实的对话。
The voter says that when she was six, her mother miscarried a baby.
这位选民说，当她六岁时，她的母亲流产了一个孩子。
But nobody explained what was going on to her.
但没有人向她解释发生了什么事。
When she was 11 and got her period, nobody explained what was happening and how scary that was.
当她 11 岁来月经时，没有人解释发生了什么以及这有多可怕。
And so she tried to be different with her daughters.
因此，她试图对女儿们采取不同的态度。
That's why she became a nurse, to help women.
这就是她成为一名护士的原因，以帮助妇女。
Now and then the canvasser points out things and underlines things in the voter's life story, nudging her to kind of connect the dots.
游说者时不时地指出并强调选民生活故事中的一些事情，敦促她将这些点联系起来。
Like when the voter talks about her daughters, the canvasser says--
就像当选民谈论她的女儿时，拉票员说——
It sounds like you are very supportive of their choices, even if you may not agree with them.
听起来你非常支持他们的选择，即使你可能不同意他们。
I try to do.
我尝试去做。
Ira Glass But mostly they just swap stories.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 但大多数情况下他们只是交换故事。
And 15 minutes into this 22-minute conversation, the canvasser reveals this.
在这场 22 分钟的谈话进行到 15 分钟后，文字布道者透露了这一点。
I had an abortion in November this past year.
我去年11月份流产了。
I'm so sorry.
我很抱歉。
Canvasser It wasn't the wrong choice for me, because that's what felt right for me.
Canvasser 这对我来说不是错误的选择，因为这对我来说是正确的选择。
But I was alone.
但我独自一人。
And it was scary.
这很可怕。
It was because I don't know how to talk about it with people.
这是因为我不知道如何与人谈论这件事。
Like my family, my mother loves me.
就像我的家人一样，我的母亲爱我。
And so does my papa and my sister.
我的爸爸和姐姐也是如此。
I know.
我知道。
But it's hard.
但这很难。
And you carry it for the rest of your life.
你将终生携带它。
It's your decision.
这是你的决定。
But you carry it for the rest of your life.
但你会带着它度过余生。
One of the things that I struggled with in telling my family is this idea that my family is going to love me less.
我在告诉家人时遇到的困难之一是我的家人会更少爱我。
No. Never.
不，从来没有。
Canvasser Would you ever love your daughters less?
文告员 你会少爱你的女儿吗？
No. Never.
不，从来没有。
Ira Glass It's a moment that's simultaneously intimate and manipulative and honest.
艾拉·格拉斯（Ira Glass） 这是一个既亲密又充满操控性和诚实的时刻。
All at once.
一下子。
And it works.
它有效。
After this, the canvasser asked the voter again to rate on a scale of zero to 10 where she stands on access to abortion.
此后，游说者再次要求选民从 0 到 10 的范围内对她对堕胎的看法进行评分。
Remember, she was a zero before.
请记住，她以前是零。
We have that same zero to 10 scale where zero means no access and 10 means full access.
我们有相同的从 0 到 10 的等级，其中 0 表示没有访问权限，10 表示完全访问权限。
Mm-hm.
嗯嗯。
Ira Glass Researcher Michael LaCour is running a study about the abortion canvassing.
艾拉·格拉斯 (Ira Glass) 研究员迈克尔·拉库尔 (Michael LaCour) 正在进行一项有关堕胎游说的研究。
This one hasn't been published yet.
这个还没有出版。
He's only been tracking the voters for 200 days so far.
到目前为止，他只追踪选民 200 天。
But preliminary data indicates that the canvassers did change people's minds.
但初步数据表明，游说者确实改变了人们的想法。
The number of voters who favored abortion to be legal in all cases grows five percentage points after talking to the canvassers.
在与游说者交谈后，支持堕胎在所有情况下都合法的选民人数增加了五个百分点。
And the 5% stayed that way.
5% 的人保持这种状态。
They haven't changed back 200 days later.
200天后他们还没有变回来。
But-- and this is the important but-- that change only happens when the canvassers are women who've had abortions who reveal that fact to voters.
但是——这是重要的但是——只有当游说者是堕胎过的女性并向选民透露这一事实时，这种改变才会发生。
Other canvassers don't get the long-term change.
其他游说者无法获得长期的改变。
So in a sense, it's very similar to what happens with gay canvassers talking about gay marriage.
所以从某种意义上说，这与同性恋游说者谈论同性婚姻的情况非常相似。
When the people most affected by an issue show up at your door and talk to you, that's the thing that can change your mind.
当受问题影响最严重的人出现在您家门口并与您交谈时，这可能会改变您的想法。
Of course, it was liberals doing this canvassing.
当然，是自由主义者在进行这种游说。
So they pushed a liberal agenda.
因此他们推动了自由主义议程。
But researcher Donald Green says conservatives could probably use this technique just as productively.
但研究员唐纳德·格林表示，保守派或许也可以同样有效地使用这种技术。
Probably so.
大概是这样。
I think it's a matter of, again, changing the face that people associate with a given issue.
我认为这又是一个改变人们对特定问题的看法的问题。
So you can imagine, for example, a conservative group doing this on something like school choice.
所以你可以想象，例如，一个保守团体在择校之类的事情上这样做。
So in other words, parents, or maybe even high school kids who had been in a certain kind of school would go out and go door to door and just talk in a heartfelt way about their experiences in school.
换句话说，家长，甚至是在某种学校上过学的高中生，都会出去挨家挨户地真诚地谈论他们在学校的经历。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Ira Glass Do you think it could work for abortion for the other side?
Ira Glass：你认为这对另一方堕胎有用吗？
Women who regretted having an abortion would go door to door and just talk about that in a real way.
后悔堕胎的女性会挨家挨户地真实地谈论这件事。
It could be.
可能是。
I think what's kind of interesting about this is that when I talk to professionals about this technique, this does not inspire a lot of interest on their part.
我认为有趣的是，当我与专业人士谈论这项技术时，他们并没有对此产生太多兴趣。
Because of course, it can't be done on a large scale at low cost.
因为当然，它不可能以低成本大规模完成。
And they don't want to invest the kinds of resources and training and supervision necessary to generate an army of canvassers that can actually change minds.
他们也不想投入必要的资源、培训和监督来组建一支能够真正改变想法的游说者大军。
It is expensive.
它很贵。
The Los Angeles LGBT Center spent nearly $2.5 million over four years and reached just 12,000 voters.
洛杉矶 LGBT 中心四年来花费了近 250 万美元，但只覆盖了 12,000 名选民。
That is not many voters when you consider they last Prop 8 by 600,000 votes.
考虑到他们最后以 60 万票投票支持 8 号提案，这个数字并不算多。
In a state like California with 17 million voters, they'd have to spend a real fortune to have an impact on any election.
在像加利福尼亚州这样拥有 1700 万选民的州，他们必须花费一大笔钱才能对任何选举产生影响。
Cheaper, by far, to make a scare ad and run it on local TV around the state-- you know, the way politics usually works.
到目前为止，制作一个恐吓广告并在全州各地的当地电视台上播放要便宜得多——你知道，这就是政治通常的运作方式。
Coming up, getting criminals to change by giving them exactly what they want-- or one of the things they want, anyway.
即将到来的是，通过给罪犯他们想要的东西——或者无论如何，他们想要的东西之一来让他们改变。
That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
芝加哥公共广播电台一分钟后我们的节目仍在继续。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, the incredible rarity of anyone changing their minds.
今天在我们的节目中，很少有人改变主意。
We have stories today about why it happens in the rare instances that it does happen.
今天我们有一些故事来解释为什么在极少数情况下会发生这种情况。
We've arrived at Act Two of our program.
我们已经到了节目的第二幕了。
Act Two, Crime Pays.
第二幕，犯罪是有代价的。
So Richmond, California is right across the bay from San Francisco.
因此，加利福尼亚州里士满与旧金山隔海湾相望。
And it has been a pretty violent place.
这是一个相当暴力的地方。
Quick illustration of that.
快速说明这一点。
The city's police chief, Chris Magnus-- at a press conference, he holds up a cellphone to play a recording made at 11:00 at night there.
该市警察局长克里斯·马格努斯 (Chris Magnus) 在新闻发布会上举起手机播放晚上 11:00 录制的录音。
[GUNSHOTS] He starts to put the cell phone down, then realizes it's not over.
[枪声]他开始放下手机，然后意识到事情还没有结束。
[GUNSHOTS] Back in 2006, Richmond was named the ninth most dangerous city in the country, with 42 murders for a population of about 100,000.
[枪声] 早在 2006 年，里士满就被评为全国第九大最危险城市，人口约 10 万，发生了 42 起谋杀案。
Then they brought in a new police chief and started doing all kinds of things differently.
然后他们任命了一位新的警察局长，并开始以不同的方式做各种事情。
And it worked.
它奏效了。
Homicides are now a third of what they were.
现在凶杀案数量是原来的三分之一。
Crime has dropped in a way that is dramatic and impressive.
犯罪率急剧下降，令人印象深刻。
And police say that one of the things that helped is a program called the Office of Neighborhood Safety, or ONS.
警方表示，一个名为邻里安全办公室（ONS）的项目起到了一定作用。
Bland name for what is actually a very unusual program with one particular tactic that you do not hear about people trying very often.
平淡的名字实际上是一个非常不寻常的程序，它具有一种您不会经常听到人们尝试的特定策略。
Joe Richman explains.
乔·里奇曼解释道。
The big aha moment for the head of ONS, DeVone Boggan, came when he was in a meeting with police officers.
英国国家统计局局长德文·博根 (DeVone Boggan) 的重大惊喜时刻发生在他与警察开会时。
They told him a number-- that Richmond police believed that 70% of the shootings in the city involved just 17 guys.
他们告诉他一个数字——里士满警方认为该市 70% 的枪击事件只涉及 17 名男子。
17 people.
17 人。
And I'll tell you, I almost flipped out of my chair.
我告诉你，我差点从椅子上跳起来。
Cause I was like, 17 people?
因为我当时想，17个人？
That's nothing.
那没什么。
Boggan realized that if they could reach just those 17 guys and get them to change, they could really make a dent in the problem.
博根意识到，如果他们能够接触到这 17 个人并让他们做出改变，他们确实可以解决这个问题。
He asked the police for a list of those 17 names.
他向警方索要这17人的名单。
He did his own research and added more names.
他做了自己的研究并添加了更多的名字。
To get on that list, Boggan said, you basically had to have shot someone.
博根说，要进入这个名单，你基本上必须开枪打死某人。
Next, he put together a team of street outreach workers.
接下来，他组建了一支街道外展工作人员团队。
All of them were from Richmond.
他们都来自里士满。
Most had served time in prison themselves.
大多数人自己都曾在监狱里服过刑。
And he sent them out to get to know the guys on the list and deliver this message-- come to a meeting and we will provide you with a lifestyle alternative that could change your life for the good.
他派他们出去认识名单上的人，并传递这个信息——来参加一次会议，我们将为您提供一种生活方式的选择，可以永远改变您的生活。
Boggan had no idea if any of them would come.
博根不知道他们中是否有人会来。
The meeting was scheduled three months later.
这次会议定于三个月后举行。
By that time, a couple of guys on the list were dead.
到那时，名单上的几个人已经死了。
One was in jail.
其中一人入狱。
Four others weren't interested.
另外四个人不感兴趣。
But the rest of the guys agreed.
但其余的人都同意了。
21 guys.
21个人。
Boggan has a sense of theater.
博根有一种戏剧感。
And rather than hold the meeting in one of the neighborhood community centers, he had the men come to City Hall.
他没有让会议在附近的社区中心举行，而是让人们来到市政厅。
The meeting took place in a fancy conference room with views of San Francisco across the bay.
会议在一间豪华的会议室举行，可以欣赏到海湾对岸旧金山的景色。
It's a square table.
这是一张方桌。
Great wood.
很棒的木头。
It's a good room.
这是一个好房间。
They come in and they have name placards-- their full names, not their street names.
他们进来时会看到名字牌——他们的全名，而不是街道名称。
Information packets.
信息包。
Things to sign.
要签署的东西。
We wanted them to walk into the room and go, what the heck is this?
我们希望他们走进房间去，这到底是什么？
But it was what Boggan did at the end of that meeting that really got everyone's attention, both inside and outside of that room.
但博根在那次会议结束时所做的事情真正引起了房间内外每个人的关注。
I go into my pocket.
我伸进口袋。
And I pull out envelopes.
我拿出信封。
And I handed each of the young men envelopes.
我给每个年轻人递了一个信封。
And I told them to open the envelope.
我告诉他们打开信封。
And they did.
他们做到了。
And they each had $1,000 check.
他们每人都有 1000 美元的支票。
And they didn't believe that it was real.
他们不相信这是真的。
$21,000 in $1,000 checks were given out that day.
当天发放了 1,000 美元的 21,000 美元支票。
The message was that changing their lives should be treated like a job.
传达的信息是，改变他们的生活应该被视为一份工作。
But the money was also a type of marketing strategy, because Boggan wanted the news to spread through the neighborhoods of Richmond.
但这笔钱也是一种营销策略，因为博根希望这个消息能够在里士满的社区中传播。
And it did.
确实如此。
That first meeting was five years ago.
第一次见面是五年前。
And since then, they've done it every 18 months with a new group.
从那时起，他们每 18 个月都会与一个新小组进行一次这样的活动。
Everybody do me a favor.
大家帮我一个忙。
If you have not signed the sign-in, sign the sign-in after you've signed your paperwork.
如果您尚未在登录表上签名，请在签署文件后在登录表上签名。
Date your paperwork.
给你的文书工作注明日期。
All of the guys in the meeting are African American.
参加会议的所有人员都是非裔美国人。
They're spread out evenly around the conference table, behind name plates with Mr. in front of their names.
他们均匀地分布在会议桌周围，名牌后面，先生的名字前面。
But these guys look really young.
但这些人看起来真的很年轻。
Some of them are just 15 or 16.
他们中的一些人只有 15 岁或 16 岁。
They definitely don't look like a city's worst criminals.
他们看起来绝对不像城里最严重的罪犯。
It's different from the meeting five years ago, because they've had so much success with the older guys.
这与五年前的会议不同，因为他们与年长的人一起取得了巨大的成功。
Now, they say, they're fishing upstream.
他们说，现在他们正在上游捕鱼。
Taking younger guys who have gotten in less trouble.
选择遇到麻烦较少的年轻人。
This is the youngest group they've ever had.
这是他们有史以来最年轻的团体。
Today's meeting is led by Sam Vaughn, one of the program's outreach workers.
今天的会议由该项目的外展工作人员之一萨姆·沃恩 (Sam Vaughn) 主持。
Everyone who shows up knows what's coming, that they're going to get paid.
每个出现的人都知道接下来会发生什么，他们会得到报酬。
Sam Vaughn tells them straight up.
萨姆·沃恩直接告诉他们。
The problem is, folk don't believe.
问题是，人们不相信。
They don't feel like you deserve it.
他们觉得你不值得。
Folk don't feel like-- that's a waste of money.
人们不觉得——那是浪费钱。
Might as well save that money for the jail cell.
还不如把这笔钱存进牢房。
We don't believe that that's the case.
我们不相信事实是这样的。
We're doing this because this community and this city cannot be safe without partnering with you.
我们这样做是因为如果没有与您合作，这个社区和这个城市就不可能安全。
And you deserve it.
这是你应得的。
So what would these guys actually do to deserve their money?
那么这些人实际上会做什么才值得他们赚钱呢？
They'll put together a life map with specific benchmarks.
他们将根据具体基准绘制出一张生活地图。
And they'll get checks as rewards-- for getting a GED, a driver's license, parenting and finance classes, job training, a job.
他们将获得支票作为奖励——获得普通教育证书、驾驶执照、育儿和金融课程、职业培训和工作。
For now, the first step is to agree, in writing, to an 18-month process of change.
目前，第一步是以书面形式同意为期 18 个月的变革过程。
And no gunfire.
而且没有枪声。
So if y'all don't got a problem with that, y'all can sign the first sheet.
因此，如果你们对此没有异议，就可以在第一张纸上签名。
[INAUDIBLE] law school.
[听不清] 法学院。
Sam Vaughn So you can sign this again.
萨姆·沃恩 所以你可以再签一次。
So you sign both of them.
所以你俩都签了。
As the guys sign their contracts, Sam Vaughn passes out their first reward.
当大家签署合同时，萨姆·沃恩发放了他们的第一份奖励。
It's not $1,000 checks anymore.
这不再是 1,000 美元的支票了。
Just $100 Visa gift card.
只需 100 美元的 Visa 礼品卡。
But they find it works just as well.
但他们发现它也同样有效。
That is $100 Visa gift card.
那是 100 美元的 Visa 礼品卡。
All right?
好的？
Pay your phone bill.
支付电话费。
Buy some kicks.
买一些踢球。
Whatever it is you're trying to do.
不管你想做什么。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Sam Vaughn You're more than welcome.
萨姆·沃恩 非常欢迎您。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for making us a priority today.
感谢您今天将我们列为优先事项。
We appreciate you.
我们很感激你。
A few days later, Sam Vaughn is driving around the neighborhoods of Richmond, which is how he spends most of his work day.
几天后，萨姆·沃恩开车在里士满附近转悠，这是他工作日大部分时间的度过方式。
Across the railroad tracks into north Richmond.
穿过铁轨进入北里士满。
And we'll ride around.
我们会骑车到处走走。
We'll see folks we know.
我们会见到我们认识的人。
We'll hop out.
我们会跳出去。
And we'll talk with them.
我们将与他们交谈。
Sometimes we're looking for folks.
有时我们正在寻找人。
I'm sorry, hold on.
抱歉，请稍等。
Sam Vaughn is an agent of change in the city of Richmond.
萨姆·沃恩是里士满市变革的推动者。
That's his actual job title.
这就是他的实际职称。
Neighborhood change agent.
邻里变革代理人。
And this is what changing someone's life often looks like.
这就是改变某人生活的样子。
Tiny fixes.
小修复。
Being there to remove obstacles, however small, to keep the person on track.
在那里消除障碍，无论障碍多么小，以使人保持在正轨上。
(ON THE PHONE) You just go up there and let them know you're trying to start a payment plan on a citation that you've got.
（在电话中）您只需去那里并让他们知道您正在尝试根据您收到的罚单启动付款计划。
You've got to give them 10% down and then you can pay monthly.
你必须给他们 10% 的首付，然后你就可以每月付款。
So if you ain't got the whole $400--
所以如果你没有拿到全部 400 美元——
Sam's on the phone with a guy named Cardell who just joined the program.
萨姆正在和一个名叫卡德尔的人通电话，他刚刚加入该计划。
Cardell was stopped in Sacramento a while back and given a ticket for driving without a license.
卡德尔不久前在萨克拉门托被拦下，并因无证驾驶而开出罚单。
He never paid the fine.
他从未缴纳罚款。
And today is his court date.
今天是他的出庭日期。
Sam convinced Cardell to deal with it.
萨姆说服卡德尔处理这件事。
So Cardell drove without a license to the courthouse in Sacramento to start paying his ticket for driving without a license.
于是，卡德尔无照驾车前往萨克拉门托法院，开始支付无照驾驶罚单。
(ON THE PHONE) You have to make the minimum payment.
（在电话中）您必须支付最低付款额。
All right, bro.
好吧，兄弟。
All right.
好的。
Sorry.
对不起。
That happens a lot.
这种情况经常发生。
Because most young people out here, they never get their license because they've gotten tickets before they've gotten their license.
因为这里的大多数年轻人从来没有拿到驾照，因为他们在拿到驾照之前就已经拿到了罚单。
And then they never pay their tickets, because the cost of those tickets are insane, especially after you failed to go to court.
然后他们从不支付罚单，因为这些罚单的成本太高了，尤其是在你未能上法庭之后。
So now the seat belt ticket that was $92, now you owe $2,200 a year later, because you haven't done anything.
现在安全带罚金是 92 美元，一年后你欠了 2,200 美元，因为你什么也没做。
And you don't live at the address that they sent the ticket to.
而且您并不住在他们寄票的地址。
It's just chaos.
这只是混乱。
And now I'm ready to go to work.
现在我准备去上班了。
But I don't have a license.
但我没有执照。
I've gotten to a place in my life where I want to do right.
我已经到了人生的一个阶段，我想做正确的事。
But there's so much holding me back.
但有太多的事情阻碍我。
You kind of give up.
你有点放弃了。
So you just stuck in this life, trying to find any kind of way to make a buck.
所以你就困在这种生活中，试图找到任何赚钱的方法。
And it definitely deflates them.
这肯定会让他们泄气。
It gets them to a place where, why am I trying?
它让他们到达一个地方，我为什么要努力？
And I'm sorry, this young man is at the desk calling me.
抱歉，这位年轻人正在办公桌前给我打电话。
(ON THE PHONE) Hey, bro.
（在电话中）嘿，兄弟。
Joe Richmond Cardell calls back.
乔·里士满·卡德尔回电。
(ON THE PHONE) Hold on.
（在电话中）稍等。
Hold on one second.
等一下。
But Sam does.
但萨姆做到了。
Sam pulls the car over at a 7-Eleven, digs out a manila folder, and reads the number into the phone.
萨姆在 7-11 便利店把车停在路边，翻出一个马尼拉文件夹，将号码读入手机。
(ON THE PHONE) Hello?
（电话里）喂？
It's F as in Frank.
弗兰克中的 F。
Driving around with Sam, it feels as close to being with change expert as I can imagine.
和 Sam 一起开车，感觉就像是和变革专家在一起，这是我能想象到的。
He's thought a lot about how people change.
他对人们如何改变进行了很多思考。
So I kept peppering him with questions with the word change in them.
所以我不断地用“改变”这个词问他一些问题。
24 questions.
24 个问题。
I listened back later and counted.
我稍后再听并数数。
I was looking for some theory about what it takes for people to transform themselves.
我一直在寻找一些关于人们如何改变自己的理论。
And he tried to play along.
他也试着配合。
So yes, I know you're trying to get that little plug and that little one-liner.
所以，是的，我知道你想得到那个小插头和那个小单线。
I just don't know how you're going to make it work.
我只是不知道你要如何让它发挥作用。
[LAUGHS] I just don't.
[笑]我就是不这么认为。
But changing your mind is the easiest part in the world.
但改变主意是世界上最容易的部分。
Saying, "This is something that I want to do.
说：“这是我想做的事情。
I believe that I can do this.
我相信我能做到这一点。
I believe I can be a different man.
我相信我可以成为一个不同的人。
I believe I can be successful.
我相信我能成功。
I believe I can be a good father.
我相信我能成为一个好父亲。
I believe I can stop using drugs.
我相信我可以停止使用毒品。
I believe I can get a job." And believing all these things is fantastic.
我相信我能找到工作。”相信所有这些事情真是太棒了。
But if I don't have the tools and the mechanisms to do something different, I revert back to my old ways.
但如果我没有工具和机制来做不同的事情，我就会回到原来的方式。
Like if I want to be a vegetarian, but then there ain't no vegetarian food, I'm just eating apples.
就像如果我想成为素食主义者，但是没有素食，我只吃苹果。
That's the only thing they got.
这是他们唯一得到的东西。
I'm back on meat in a week for sure.
我肯定会在一周内恢复吃肉。
That's just what it is.
就是这样。
Giving people these tools takes time.
为人们提供这些工具需要时间。
Sam and the other change agents check in with the guys in the program pretty much every day.
萨姆和其他变革推动者几乎每天都会与项目中的人员进行核对。
Sam is here to meet with a guy who signed up four days ago.
萨姆来这里是要见一个四天前报名的人。
You ain't got no gun?
你没有枪吗？
Deandre It's in the house.
德安德烈：在房子里。
Why it ain't on your waist?
为啥没挂在腰上？
Joe Richmond This is Deandre.
乔·里士满 这是德安德烈。
First of all, I, don't really like you.
首先，我，不太喜欢你。
No, I'm joking, dog.
不，我在开玩笑，狗。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
He's 20 years old, although he looks 16.
虽然看上去只有16岁，但今年已经20岁了。
They're standing next to Sam's car parked in Deandre's mother's driveway.
他们站在山姆停在德安德烈母亲车道上的汽车旁边。
Real talk.
真话。
I'm glad you decided to do this.
我很高兴你决定这样做。
For me, what it's showing is that you're trying to do something different with your life.
对我来说，它表明你正在尝试做一些不同的事情来改变你的生活。
And you possibly think that's that baby coming.
你可能认为那是婴儿的降临。
So I'd ask you, why don't you tell me how that happened, though, bro?
所以我想问你，兄弟，你为什么不告诉我这是怎么发生的呢？
And not the specifics, because I know how it happens.
而不是具体细节，因为我知道它是如何发生的。
But how did you let that happen?
但你是怎么让这种事发生的呢？
How would you get to a place where you feel like you're ready to be responsible for another life, when you can't even figure out your own right now?
当你现在甚至无法弄清楚自己的生活时，你会如何到达一个感觉自己已经准备好对另一种生活负责的地方？
I think that's probably what it took for me to realize what I got to do, to maybe better myself so I can make a better situation for my child.
我想这可能就是我意识到我必须做什么的原因，也许是为了让自己变得更好，这样我才能为我的孩子创造一个更好的环境。
I mean, congratulations, but damn at the same time.
我的意思是，恭喜你，但同时也该死。
All through this conversation, Sam doesn't miss a chance to nudge, to clarify, to keep things realistic.
在整个谈话过程中，萨姆不放过任何一个推动、澄清、让事情保持现实的机会。
You've got four months.
你还有四个月的时间。
What are you trying to accomplish in four months before your baby get here?
在您的宝宝出生之前的四个月内，您想完成什么任务？
A lot.
很多。
I need a job.
我需要一份工作。
Sam Vaughn Let's be realistic.
萨姆·沃恩：让我们现实一点吧。
I want you to say that list, but then we're going to have to be realistic about it, too.
我希望你说出这份清单，但我们也必须现实一点。
So four months.
那么四个月。
What are you trying to accomplish?
你想实现什么目标？
I want to accomplish my GED, a job, and be wealthy.
我想完成我的 GED、一份工作并变得富有。
You're trying to be wealthy in four months?
你想在四个月内变得富有吗？
Like, emotionally wealthy?
比如，情感丰富？
Or financially wealthy?
还是财力雄厚？
Financially, emotionally.
经济上、情感上。
Sam Vaughn What's your definition of wealthy?
Sam Vaughn 你对富有的定义是什么？
What amount of money is that?
那是多少钱？
Couple thousand.
几千。
Sam Vaughn A couple thousand?
萨姆·沃恩 几千？
Oh, you can have that saved for sure.
哦，你肯定可以保存它。
But if you think, four months, you're just going to have a hundred stacks in the bank, that's just unrealistic.
但如果你认为四个月后你的银行里就会有一百堆钱，那是不现实的。
I'm glad you said GED before job.
我很高兴你在工作前说了 GED。
Because that's being realistic.
因为那是现实的。
License.
执照。
[INAUDIBLE] Sam Vaughn All right.
[听不清] Sam Vaughn 好的。
Well then, that's what we on then.
那么，这就是我们当时的情况。
All right.
好的。
See you later.
稍后见。
Sam Vaughn For sure, dog.
萨姆·沃恩 当然，狗。
I believe he can do it.
我相信他能做到。
I do.
我愿意。
I believe he has everything it takes to do it.
我相信他拥有做到这一点所需的一切。
But then he also has to get lucky.
但他也必须幸运。
Let's not live in a fairy tale land.
我们不要生活在童话世界里。
He's about to have a child in four months.
还有四个月他就要生孩子了。
So what happens when that baby needs diapers and food?
那么当婴儿需要尿布和食物时会发生什么？
He's going to provide for his child the best he knows how.
他将尽他所知道的方式为他的孩子提供最好的生活。
And that could possibly lead him to jail or prison.
这可能会导致他入狱或入狱。
So he's going to have to get lucky.
所以他必须要运气好。
He's going to have to be able to do some things that he probably shouldn't do and get away with them until he gets to a place to where he ain't gotta do them no more.
他必须能够做一些他可能不应该做的事情，并摆脱它们，直到他到达一个不再需要做这些事情的地方。
That's just being realistic.
这只是现实而已。
Sam Vaughn That's the reality of it.
萨姆·沃恩 这就是现实。
This surprised me, the pragmatism of it.
这让我感到惊讶，它的实用主义。
They don't expect the guys to change all at once.
他们不希望这些家伙一下子就改变。
They know it's going to take a while before they stop committing crimes.
他们知道他们需要一段时间才能停止犯罪。
And they don't give up on them when they screw up.
当他们搞砸时，他们也不会放弃。
I met a graduate of the program named D'vondre Woodard.
我遇到了该项目的一位毕业生，名叫 D'vondre Woodard。
He's 25 now, has a great paying job.
他现在25岁了，有一份高薪工作。
He's a big success in the program.
他在该计划中取得了巨大成功。
And he told me this story.
他告诉我这个故事。
Four years ago, he was doing well enough in the fellowship that he was given a special reward.
四年前，他在团契中表现出色，获得了特殊奖励。
ONS has found that even more attractive than the financial stipend is the chance to travel.
英国国家统计局发现，比经济津贴更有吸引力的是旅行的机会。
He'd been to Mexico, South Africa.
他去过墨西哥、南非。
And in 2011, D'vondre was invited to represent the program in Washington, DC, at President Obama's State of the Union address.
2011 年，德冯德尔受邀代表该项目在华盛顿特区出席奥巴马总统的国情咨文演讲。
And I just remember as he spoke, he always paused.
我只记得他说话时总是停顿下来。
He never "um," you know.
你知道，他从来不说“嗯”。
Professional with it.
专业用它。
There was D'vondre in the audience, in a suit and tie, on national television, a representative for the ONS program.
国家电视台的观众席上有身穿西装、打着领带的德冯德尔，他是国家统计局节目的代表。
The thing was, at this point, D'vondre was still selling drugs.
问题是，此时德冯德雷仍在贩卖毒品。
He had made changes, for sure.
他确实做出了改变。
And D'vondre says they were important changes.
德冯德尔表示，这些都是重要的变化。
It wasn't the same drugs, like cocaine, riding around with guns, looking for people.
这与可卡因之类的毒品不同，他们拿着枪到处找人。
No. My life was totally changed.
不，我的生活完全改变了。
I'm not doing that no more.
我不会再这样做了。
What I'm doing is marijuana.
我正在做的是大麻。
A bag here.
这里有一个袋子。
Bag here.
包在这里。
Get pulled over with that, they're not going to take you to jail for that.
就这样被警察拦下来，他们不会因此而把你送进监狱。
They're looking for guns and cocaine.
他们正在寻找枪支和可卡因。
That's all the police is looking for.
这就是警察正在寻找的一切。
Before he'd make the jump and stop selling drugs completely, D'vondre first wanted a job, a well-paying one.
在彻底停止贩毒之前，德冯德尔首先想要一份工作，一份高薪的工作。
The guys in the program can make as much as $300 to $1000 a month, depending on how well they're meeting their goals.
参与该计划的人每月可以赚取 300 至 1000 美元，具体取决于他们实现目标的程度。
Real money, but not enough to replace with some of them could make selling drugs.
真金白银，但不足以替代其中一些可以用来贩卖毒品的钱。
D'vondre figured out a job he wanted, doing maintenance in an oil refinery, like the Chevron plant nearby.
德冯德尔找到了一份他想要的工作，在炼油厂（例如附近的雪佛龙工厂）进行维护。
He did a six-month training course, only to find out afterwards that he would need a special credential from Homeland Security for this sort of work.
他参加了为期六个月的培训课程，后来才发现他需要国土安全部的特殊证书才能从事此类工作。
And D'vondre didn't qualify because he was a felon.
德冯德尔没有资格，因为他是重罪犯。
So with help from ONS, he appealed.
因此，在国家统计局的帮助下，他提出上诉。
He got letters of recommendation.
他收到了推荐信。
He wrote an essay about his past and how he had changed.
他写了一篇关于他的过去以及他如何改变的文章。
And he waited for a decision.
他等待着决定。
About two years.
大约两年。
Joe Richmond It took you two years?
乔·里士满 你花了两年时间？
It took me two years.
我花了两年时间。
Joe Richmond To get those credentials.
乔·里士满 为了获得这些凭证。
It was a waiting game.
这是一场等待的游戏。
It was about being patient.
这是关于要有耐心。
And you liked the idea of that job more than selling drugs?
与贩卖毒品相比，你更喜欢这份工作？
Yeah.
是的。
Because it's a job.
因为这是一份工作。
It's a job.
这是一份工作。
A W-2 form.
W-2 表格。
Taxes, W-2's.
税，W-2。
How the system works, society's system, the United States' system.
制度如何运作，社会的制度，美国的制度。
D'vondre got his credentials and learned he would start his new job in a month.
德冯德尔拿到了证书，并得知他将在一个月内开始新工作。
And it was at that point-- 30 days away from a brand new job-- that's when D'vondre decided to go cold turkey on illegal activity.
就在那时，距离新工作还有 30 天，德冯德尔决定彻底停止非法活动。
No more drug dealing.
不再有毒品交易。
He said it was like giving himself a test.
他说这就像给自己一个考验。
And he passed.
他通过了。
I let it go.
我放手了。
I stopped doing what I was doing.
我停止做我正在做的事情。
I didn't have to no more.
我不必再这样了。
I just put it down.
我刚刚把它放下了。
Got rid of it.
摆脱了它。
I don't need it no more.
我不再需要它了。
Over the past five years, 68 guys have gone through the ONS fellowship program.
过去 5 年里，已有 68 人参加了 ONS 奖学金计划。
How did they do?
他们做得怎么样？
Four are dead.
四人死了。
A few others are in prison.
其他一些人正在监狱里。
But of the 68, 43 have completed their goals and graduated.
但在 68 人中，有 43 人完成了目标并毕业。
But even more important than those numbers, the overwhelming majority of the guys who have gone through the program-- whether they graduated or not-- have had no new arrests or charges for gun-related activities.
但比这些数字更重要的是，绝大多数参加过该计划的人——无论他们是否毕业——都没有因与枪支相关的活动而被捕或受到新的指控。
And by majority, I mean 80%, according to a report that's about to be released by the National Council on Crime and Delinquency that studied the ONS program.
根据国家犯罪和犯罪委员会即将发布的一份研究国家统计局项目的报告，我所说的大多数是指 80%。
Criminologists I talked to said anything over 50% would be considered exceptional.
与我交谈过的犯罪学家表示，任何超过 50% 的情况都将被视为异常。
You'd expect most of them to fail.
你会预料到他们中的大多数都会失败。
But the numbers that have received the most attention are the ones with dollar signs in front of them.
但最受关注的数字是那些前面带有美元符号的数字。
There have been headlines like "paying people not to kill" or just "crime pays." And internet comments like, "So all I have to do is threaten to kill someone and I get free money from the government?
曾经出现过诸如“付钱让人们不杀人”或“犯罪有报酬”之类的头条新闻。互联网上的评论是这样的：“所以我所要做的就是威胁要杀人，然后我就可以从政府那里得到免费的钱？
How do I sign up for this gravy train?"
我该如何报名参加这趟肉汁列车？”
In Richmond, there are plenty of straight-A students or valedictorians from poor families who aren't selling drugs, aren't committing crimes, aren't picking up guns.
在里士满，有很多来自贫困家庭的优等生或告别演说者，他们不贩毒、不犯罪、不拿起枪。
And they're not getting a stipend from the city for reaching their goals.
他们并没有因为实现目标而从市政府获得津贴。
And Sam Vaughn, who's been with the program, working with these guys for years, he understands the criticism.
萨姆·沃恩（Sam Vaughn）一直参与该项目，与这些人一起工作多年，他理解这些批评。
I get it.
我得到它。
I get it.
我得到它。
I understand it 100%.
我百分百理解。
I was in prison.
我在监狱里。
Society didn't think I deserved anything.
社会认为我不值得任何东西。
I got a college education in prison.
我在监狱里接受了大学教育。
Folks had an issue with that.
人们对此有疑问。
"I work my ass off and I can't afford to pay for my kids' college, this dude breaks the law and goes in here and gets a free education." I understand.
“我拼命工作，却无力支付孩子们的大学费用，这个家伙违反了法律，来到这里接受免费教育。”我明白。
I understand that balance.
我理解这种平衡。
But once again-- and if you want to call it pragmatism, yeah, that's what it is-- I'm coming home.
但再一次——如果你想称之为实用主义，是的，那就是实用主义——我要回家了。
Who do you want to live next door to you?
你希望谁住在你隔壁？
The dude who got the college education and who was able to get in those classes and was able to get a domestic violence certificate or substance abuse certificate?
那个接受过大学教育并且能够参加这些课程并且能够获得家庭暴力证明或药物滥用证明的人？
Folk who are really in there working on themselves?
那些真正在那里为自己工作的人？
Or the dude who's sitting out on the yard playing dominoes all day and working out?
或者整天坐在院子里玩多米诺骨牌并锻炼身体的家伙？
Who do you want coming next door to you?
你希望谁来到你的隔壁？
Joe Richmond There's no other city in America right now that's doing what Richmond is doing-- giving criminals money to turn their lives around.
乔·里士满 目前，美国没有其他城市正在做里士满正在做的事情——为犯罪分子提供金钱以扭转他们的生活。
In most places, it would be a tough sell.
在大多数地方，这将是一个艰难的推销。
But the city was desperate.
但这座城市却陷入了绝望。
And sometimes that's what it takes for things to change.
有时这就是事情发生改变所需要的。
Joe Richmond.
乔·里士满。
He runs the Radio Diaries podcast, which this week has a story about a different guy who was in the ONS program.
他经营着广播日记播客，本周该播客讲述了 ONS 节目中另一个人的故事。
A guy who was shot 22 times.
一个中了22枪的人。
That's at radiodiaries.org or wherever you get your podcasts.
可以在 radiodiaries.org 或任何可以获取播客的地方找到。
Act Three: Glacial Change Ira Glass Act Three, Glacial Change.
第三幕：冰川变化 Ira Glass 第三幕，冰川变化。
So far today on our show we've had opinion.
到目前为止，我们今天的节目已经有了意见。
We've had criminal behavior.
我们曾经有过犯罪行为。
And now we move to a third thing that can be notoriously difficult to change.
现在我们要讨论第三件事，这件事是出了名的难以改变。
And that is the mood of an unhappy teenager.
这就是一个不快乐的青少年的心情。
Miki Meek explains.
米基·米克解释道。
When Zalena Su'e was 15, this is what her life was like.
扎琳娜·苏埃15岁时，她的生活就是这样。
Her family lived in a beach house on an island in the South Pacific.
她的家人住在南太平洋一个岛屿上的海滨别墅里。
And there were these bright green trees growing in her yard.
她的院子里长着这些鲜绿的树木。
They're called breadfruit trees.
它们被称为面包果树。
It was pretty dreamy.
真是太梦幻了。
It was literally my house, and then the road, and then the ocean.
这实际上是我的房子，然后是道路，然后是海洋。
That was it.
就是这样。
Really?
真的吗？
Zalena Su'e Yeah.
扎莱娜·苏埃 是的。
Imagine the most beautiful mountains there and the sun sinking between those mountains.
想象一下那里最美丽的山脉和落在这些山脉之间的太阳。
That was my view every single day.
这就是我每天的观点。
Just super easy to recognize paradise.
超级容易认出天堂。
This was American Samoa, a US territory in Polynesia.
这是美属萨摩亚，美国在波利尼西亚的领土。
Zalena had a tight-knit group of friends who all went to the same big public high school known for its champion football team, the Tafuna Warriors.
扎莱纳有一群关系密切的朋友，他们都就读于同一所大型公立高中，该高中以其冠军橄榄球队塔富纳勇士队而闻名。
They went to games and hung out in the bleachers and talked endlessly about their lives.
他们去看比赛，在看台上闲逛，没完没了地谈论自己的生活。
She was also surrounded by tons of family-- aunts, uncles, and cousins.
她周围还有很多家人——阿姨、叔叔和表兄弟姐妹。
And on top of that was her church.
最重要的是她的教堂。
She loved singing with them.
她喜欢和他们一起唱歌。
But then one day about two years ago, this all changed.
但大约两年前的一天，这一切都改变了。
My dad's just like, "I think God's calling us to go to Alaska." I'm like, where?
我爸爸就像是，“我认为上帝在召唤我们去阿拉斯加。”我想，在哪里？
[LAUGHS] What?
[笑]什么？
That's not in my vocabulary.
我的字典里没有这个。
What?
什么？
And he just said, "Whittier, Alaska."
他只是说：“阿拉斯加惠蒂尔。”
What had happened was their pastor had sent out an email looking for someone to lead a new branch of their Baptist Church-- in, yes, Alaska.
发生的事情是，他们的牧师发出了一封电子邮件，寻找某人来领导他们浸信会的一个新分会——是的，在阿拉斯加。
I saw igloos.
我看到了冰屋。
And I thought penguins were everywhere.
我以为企鹅无处不在。
I thought polar bears were walking down the street.
我以为北极熊正在街上行走。
I just saw frozen wasteland.
我刚刚看到了冰冻的荒原。
That's it.
就是这样。
No. No, no. We thought it was a joke.
不，不，不。我们以为这是个玩笑。
But apparently he'd sent in an email, he's like, "Put me on the waitlist." And our senior pastor's like, "There is no waiting list.
但显然他发了一封电子邮件，他说，“把我列入候补名单。”我们的主任牧师说：“没有等候名单。
And I think you're perfect."
而且我认为你很完美。”
Not that her dad had ever started a church or been a pastor.
她的父亲并没有创办过教堂或当过牧师。
He was a high school science teacher.
他是一名高中科学老师。
And until now, no one in Zalena's family-- not her mom, not her three younger siblings-- had any idea that this was a dream of his.
直到现在，扎莱娜的家人——无论是她的妈妈，还是她的三个弟弟妹妹——都没有人知道这是他的一个梦想。
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
They complained a lot.
他们抱怨了很多。
But this is something that I really want to do a long time ago.
但这是我很久以前就很想做的事情。
This is my chance.
这是我的机会。
This is your chance?
这是你的机会吗？
Father Yeah.
父亲 是啊。
To do God's work.
去做上帝的工作。
For her father, this wasn't a decision to make.
对于她的父亲来说，这不是一个需要做出的决定。
It was a calling.
这是一个召唤。
At church, they often heard the phrase, "walk by faith and not by sight." And that is quite literally what they did.
在教堂里，他们经常听到这样一句话：“凭信心行事，不凭眼见”。这确实是他们所做的。
They sold all their belongings and used all of their savings on the move, including what they'd put away for Zalena to go to college.
他们卖掉了所有的财产，用了所有的积蓄搬家，包括为扎莱娜上大学存的钱。
Then they got on a plane with two suitcases each and headed north without knowing a thing about where they were going.
然后，他们各自带着两个行李箱登上飞机，向北出发，却不知道要去哪里。
No one in the family even Googled the town to take a look at what they were getting into.
家里没有人在谷歌上搜索这个小镇，看看他们正在经历什么。
21 hours later, Zalena and her family landed in Anchorage, where a senior pastor running a Samoan church there picked them up.
21 小时后，扎琳娜和她的家人降落在安克雷奇，当地一位管理萨摩亚教堂的高级牧师接了他们。
To get to Whittier from Anchorage, you go south about 60 miles and then you hit a mountain with a 2 and 1/2 mile tunnel.
要从安克雷奇前往惠提尔，您需要向南行驶约 60 英里，然后到达一座带有 2又 1/2 英里隧道的山。
It's dark and narrow and shuts down at night.
这里又黑又窄，晚上就会关闭。
Zalena felt nervous and claustrophobic.
扎莱娜感到紧张和幽闭恐惧症。
But she also tried to be optimistic.
但她也试图保持乐观。
And then we came to the tunnel, and it was like, boom.
然后我们来到隧道，感觉就像是，繁荣。
Gloomy clouds and it's super dark.
乌云密布，天色超级暗。
It looked like something out of one of those horror shows.
它看起来就像是恐怖节目中的一幕。
Rain was just falling.
雨刚刚落下。
Yes.
是的。
It was terrible.
太可怕了。
And I just saw this huge building.
我刚刚看到了这座巨大的建筑。
15 stories.
15 个故事。
So our senior pastor was like, "Everybody lives in here, by the way."
所以我们的主任牧师说，“顺便说一句，每个人都住在这里。”
By that, he meant the whole town lived in that one building-- almost all of its 200 residents.
他的意思是，整个城镇的 200 名居民几乎全部都住在那一栋楼里。
Post office, stores, all in that one building.
邮局、商店都在那一栋楼里。
And I was freaking out on the inside, thinking, "This is where I'm supposed to be?" And I cried.
我内心惊慌失措，心想：“这就是我应该在的地方吗？”我哭了。
Miki Meek To be technical about it, there are actually a few things outside the one big building.
米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 从技术角度来说，在这座大楼之外实际上还有一些东西。
There's a school right behind it, which kids get to through an underground tunnel in the winter.
它后面有一所学校，冬天孩子们可以通过地下隧道进入学校。
There's one bar, an inn, and a convenience store.
这里有一家酒吧、一家旅馆和一家便利店。
And there are parking lots filled with old fishing boats.
还有停满旧渔船的停车场。
But that's about it.
但仅此而已。
Everything else takes place inside the building, a pink and tan relic of the Cold War.
其他一切都发生在这座粉红色和棕褐色冷战遗迹的建筑内。
It used to house soldiers.
它曾经是士兵的住所。
The US Army actually picked Whittier as a port in the 1940s because the weather sucked so badly.
事实上，美国陆军在 20 世纪 40 年代选择惠蒂尔作为港口，因为天气非常糟糕。
There's so much cloud cover there that it was good for hiding ships and ammunition from enemy planes.
那里的云层非常多，非常适合隐藏船只和弹药，以免敌机发现。
But when the military pulled out, civilians started moving in.
但当军队撤出后，平民开始迁入。
And soon, the building was filled with retirees.
很快，大楼里就挤满了退休人员。
That's the post office.
那是邮局。
Miki Meek Zalena gave me tour down a dimly lit hallway with linoleum floors and brick walls painted off-white.
米基·米克·扎莱娜（Miki Meek Zalena）带我参观了一条灯光昏暗的走廊，走廊里铺着油毡地板，砖墙漆成灰白色。
This is the Whittier city officia.
这是惠蒂尔市政府官员。
So this is like, mayor--
所以这就像，市长——
We're on the first floor, which has the police station, laundromat, a tiny grocery store called Kozy Korner, a notary.
我们在一楼，那里有警察局、自助洗衣店、一家名叫 Kozy Korner 的小杂货店，是一家公证人。
This is Whittier's version of Main Street.
这是惠蒂尔版的主街。
The rest of the floors in the building are all residential.
大楼的其余楼层均为住宅楼层。
Do different floors have different reputations?
不同楼层有不同的声誉吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
The sixth floor, we're pretty loud.
六楼，我们的声音很大。
And then certain floors are like old people floors where only old people live.
然后某些楼层就像老人楼层，只有老人住。
I asked her to take me to the top floor of the building.
我让她带我到大楼的顶楼。
I feel like it's mostly rich people who live up here.
我感觉住在这里的大多是有钱人。
It has a lot of really nice apartments up here.
这里有很多非常漂亮的公寓。
Like you have a sauna in your living room.
就像你的客厅里有一个桑拿浴室一样。
You wouldn't know that this was the rich floor.
你不会知道这是富人楼层。
It's pretty standard-- carpeted floors and green doors with numbers.
这是相当标准的——铺着地毯的地板和带有数字的绿色门。
We went to the 14th floor.
我们去了14楼。
There's no 13th floor, so straight to the 12th.
没有13楼，所以直接到12楼。
They all look the same.
他们看起来都一样。
What if I made you do this on every floor?
如果我让你在每一层楼都这样做怎么办？
It's gonna be the same view.
都会是同样的景色。
Miki Meek I hope you don't mind that.
米基·米克 我希望你不要介意。
[LAUGHS]
[笑]
During her first few months in Alaska, Zalena tried to pretend that she wasn't really there.
在来到阿拉斯加的头几个月里，扎琳娜试图假装自己并不在那里。
She only listened to Samoan music and ate Samoan food.
她只听萨摩亚音乐，吃萨摩亚食物。
Sometimes she even wore her old school uniform, a maroon sarong.
有时她甚至穿着她的旧校服，栗色纱笼。
She started shutting herself in her room and made a point of calling Samoa at least three times a day.
她开始把自己关在房间里，并特意每天至少给萨摩亚打电话三次。
I would not go to bed without Skyping somebody back home.
如果不通过 Skype 与家里的人联系，我就不会上床睡觉。
It was pretty bad.
情况非常糟糕。
But it's true.
但这是真的。
And so I'd go to sleep thinking I'm in Samoa.
所以我睡觉时会以为自己在萨摩亚。
And I'd wake up be like, [SIGH] I have to go through another day of this.
我醒来时会想，[叹息]我必须再经历这样的一天。
And this is?
而这是？
Zalena Su'e And this is like being dropped on Mars.
Zalena Su'e 这就像被扔到火星上一样。
And you're looking for water.
而你正在寻找水。
It's like, "What?
就像，“什么？
How can I survive here?"
我该如何在这里生存？”
All six people in Zalena's family were crammed into a tiny apartment in Whittier.
扎莱娜一家六口人都挤在惠蒂尔的一间小公寓里。
She shared a bed with her nine-year-old sister, Mona, and she could hear her neighbors' conversations through the walls.
她和九岁的妹妹莫娜同睡一张床，隔着墙壁她都能听到邻居的谈话声。
There were a handful of families in the building from places like the Philippines and Guam.
大楼里有几个来自菲律宾和关岛等地的家庭。
But their kids were much younger than Zalena.
但他们的孩子比扎莱娜年轻得多。
There was another girl her age, too, but when Zalena tried introducing herself, the girl blew her off.
还有另一个和她同龄的女孩，但当扎莱娜试图自我介绍时，女孩却拒绝了她。
So Zalena did what a lot of teenagers might do.
所以扎莱娜做了很多青少年可能会做的事情。
She shut down.
她关机了。
Meanwhile, once her family got to Alaska, they found out that they'd moved halfway across the world to start a church for only three Samoan families.
与此同时，当她的家人到达阿拉斯加后，他们发现他们已经搬到了半个地球的另一边，只为三个萨摩亚家庭建立一座教堂。
Zalena's dad was unfazed.
扎莱娜的父亲并不担心。
He'd been a high school science teacher.
他曾是一名高中科学老师。
But now he got a job doing manual labor in the harbor and used the money to support his family and the new church.
但现在他找到了一份在港口做体力劳动的工作，并用这些钱来养活他的家人和新教堂。
The church is in a windowless room in the basement of the building.
教堂位于大楼地下室的一个没有窗户的房间里。
On Sundays, Zalena's dad projects a pink and red sunset onto a concrete wall.
每到周日，扎莱娜的父亲都会将粉色和红色的日落投射到混凝土墙上。
Everyone in the congregation dresses in bright floral prints, sarongs, and flip flops.
会众中的每个人都穿着鲜艳的花卉图案、纱笼和人字拖。
The best way I can describe it is that it's kind of like tropical Christian karaoke.
我能描述它的最好方式是，它有点像热带基督教卡拉 OK。
Church was the one thing that Zalena actually looked forward to.
教堂是扎莱娜真正期待的一件事。
Other than that, she rarely left the apartment-- much less the building-- for months, despite her parents' attempts to get her out.
除此之外，尽管她的父母试图让她离开，但几个月来她很少离开公寓，更不用说整栋楼了。
I don't see the draw to leaving my house.
我不认为离开家有什么吸引力。
The only place that the kids were playing in was the basement.
孩子们唯一玩耍的地方就是地下室。
There's no place to go.
没有地方可去。
Cause it rains a lot.
因为雨很大。
So they can't go outside to go play.
所以他们不能出去玩。
And so they were playing tag in the basement, which is full of cages, like storage cages.
于是他们就在地下室玩捉迷藏，那里到处都是笼子，就像储物笼一样。
But it looks like a prison down there.
但下面看起来就像一座监狱。
And they go play cops and robbers and they think it's fun, and running around.
他们去扮演警察和强盗，他们觉得这很有趣，然后到处乱跑。
And I'm just like, this is pretty depressing.
我只是想，这真是令人沮丧。
For the younger kids, living in the building was like living in one big never ending slumber party.
对于年幼的孩子来说，住在这栋大楼里就像住在一场永无休止的大型睡衣派对中。
They ran up and down the halls and sang songs in the elevator and took over the lobby after dinner to play games.
他们在大厅里跑来跑去，在电梯里唱歌，晚饭后占领大厅玩游戏。
And because the school's so small, just 35 students, a bunch of them were also in Zalena's classroom.
而且因为学校很小，只有 35 名学生，所以 Zalena 的教室里也有很多人。
I was really bummed out, because I was like, oh my gosh.
我真的很沮丧，因为我想，天哪。
I was looking for the whole senior shebang.
我正在寻找整个高级shebang。
Everybody talks about prom, homecoming, football teams, and all these things.
每个人都在谈论舞会、返校节、足球队以及所有这些事情。
And I went to schools that had those.
我去了有这些的学校。
And now I'm here, and it's just like-- I am a senior.
现在我在这里，就像——我是一名大四学生。
I'm a senior.
我是一名前辈。
And I'm in the same classroom with a seventh grader.
我和一个七年级学生在同一个教室。
To make it even worse, one of those seventh graders ended up being Zalena's youngest brother, Philip, who knew exactly how to get on her nerves.
更糟糕的是，其中一名七年级学生最终成为扎莱娜最小的弟弟菲利普，他知道如何让她心烦意乱。
I would tap on the desk.
我会敲桌子。
And she would get mad.
她会生气的。
I would sing out loud and she would get mad.
我会大声唱歌，她会生气。
So what would she say to you?
那么她会对你说什么？
Philip She(SUBJE said, "Stop it." And I would say, "You're not the boss." And she hates that.
Philip She（SUBJE）说，“别说了。”我会说，“你不是老板。”她讨厌这样。
Miki Meek Until very recently, this was Zalena's life in Whittier.
米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 直到最近，这还是扎莱娜 (Zalena) 在惠蒂尔 (Whittier) 的生活。
And then she hit a point where she knew that if something was going to change, it wouldn't be Whittier.
然后她到达了一个转折点，她知道如果有什么事情要改变，那不会是惠蒂尔。
It had to be her.
一定是她。
So she started forcing herself to be more social.
所以她开始强迫自己变得更加社交。
When she had to share an elevator with a stranger, she'd smile big and say hello.
当她不得不与陌生人共用电梯时，她会笑着打招呼。
But what really turned things for her in Whittier all came down to this one day.
但真正让她在惠蒂尔发生转变的事情都归结为这一天。
This is February 24.
这是2月24日。
So that was like our first official "Hey, let's go walk your dog."
这就像我们的第一个官员“嘿，我们去遛狗吧。”
The girl who had blown her off when she first moved in-- her name is Sofia-- actually invited Zalena out.
刚搬进来的时候那个让她大吃一惊的女孩——她的名字叫索菲亚——实际上邀请了扎琳娜出去。
They walked down to the ocean with Sofia's dog.
他们带着索菲亚的狗走到海边。
Zalena showed me a picture from that day.
扎莱娜给我看了一张那天的照片。
So it was funny, cause it was like, "Let's take a silly picture" or something like that.
所以这很有趣，因为它就像，“让我们拍一张愚蠢的照片”或类似的东西。
"We need a senior picture." And so she jumped onto the rock next to me and she hooked her left arm over my shoulder.
“我们需要一张高级照片。”于是她跳到我旁边的岩石上，用左臂勾住我的肩膀。
And I was like, "Aw." And in the middle of me exclaiming "aw," somebody took the picture.
我当时想，“噢。”就在我惊呼“哇”的时候，有人拍下了这张照片。
And so my mouth is open, and we're both smiling.
所以我的嘴张开，我们都在微笑。
Miki Meek This happened three weeks before I met Zalena.
米基·米克（Miki Meek） 这件事发生在我遇见扎琳娜的三周前。
Since that day, Zalena's been outside the building more times than she had been in months.
从那天起，扎琳娜在大楼外面出现的次数比她几个月来的次数还要多。
One day Sofia showed her a favorite secret spot out in the forest.
有一天，索菲亚带她参观了森林里一处最喜欢的秘密地点。
They walked to where there was an old wooden plank in the ground, covered over with dirt and leaves.
他们走到地上有一块旧木板，上面覆盖着泥土和树叶。
Sofia pulled up the plank, revealing an abandoned military tunnel.
索菲亚拉起木板，露出一条废弃的军事隧道。
Zalena says it was awesome.
扎莱娜说这太棒了。
There was like a sisterhood going on right there.
那里就像姐妹情谊一样。
Sometimes I feel like a fan girl of hers, cause I'm always just like, "Sofia!" She's my best friend.
有时我觉得自己像她的粉丝，因为我总是说，“索菲亚！”她是我最好的朋友。
She hasn't really claimed our best friendship yet, but she knows.
她还没有真正宣称我们是最好的友谊，但她知道。
Here's Sofia.
这是索菲亚。
She moved to Whittier from the Philippines about four years ago.
大约四年前，她从菲律宾搬到惠蒂尔。
Before Zalena moved in, she had been the only kid in her grade.
在扎琳娜搬进来之前，她是同年级唯一的孩子。
Sometimes I feel bad that Zalena always says that I'm her best friend.
有时我感到难过，因为扎琳娜总是说我是她最好的朋友。
But then I never actually say that Zalena's my best friend.
但我实际上从未说过扎琳娜是我最好的朋友。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Sofia I feel like it's awkward.
索菲亚 我觉得这很尴尬。
Are you gonna tell her?
你要告诉她吗？
Sofia Yeah.
索菲亚 是的。
Maybe tomorrow at school.
也许明天在学校。
Miki Meek After finding this one friend, the one great friend, Zalena stopped seeing Whittier as this gloomy place she couldn't escape from and now described it as--
米基·米克 (Miki Meek) 在找到这位朋友、一位好朋友后，扎琳娜不再将惠蒂尔视为她无法逃离的阴暗地方，现在将其描述为——
Zalena can now list off dozens of things that are great about Whittier.
扎莱娜现在可以列出惠蒂尔的几十个优点。
And a lot of them are the exact things she used to hate about the place.
其中很多正是她过去讨厌这个地方的事情。
Everything's in one building.
一切都在一栋大楼内。
There's just that kind of intimacy where you can go to someone's house and just start cooking.
那种亲密感就是你可以去别人家然后开始做饭。
And the mountains-- they're very flawlessly cut, I'd say.
还有山脉——我想说，它们的切割非常完美。
They're like diamonds.
它们就像钻石一样。
Before, you would have looked at them as like--
以前，你会这样看待它们——
Before, I would have looked at them as like, "Ew." Because the mountains back home have trees on everything.
以前，我会用“呃”的眼神看着他们。因为家乡的山上到处都是树木。
It's green.
它是绿色的。
But Alaska's beautiful.
但阿拉斯加很美丽。
It's rugged, raw beauty here.
这里崎岖不平，原始之美。
It was kind of like I tripped and then, boom-- fell in love with Whittier.
有点像我绊倒了，然后，轰——爱上了惠蒂尔。
[LAUGHS] And I don't even know how to explain it.
[笑]我什至不知道如何解释。
OK, so how would you have rated Whittier when you first got here?
好的，那么当您第一次来到这里时，您会如何评价惠蒂尔？
Out of niceness, I would have given it a four out of 10.
出于友善，我会给它打四分（满分十分）。
Probably an 11.
大概是11吧
Or maybe a 10 on the bad days.
或者在糟糕的日子里可能是 10。
Miki Meek It blows my mind how much you've changed since you first got here.
米基·米克（Miki Meek） 自从你第一次来到这里以来，你发生了多么大的变化，这让我大吃一惊。
Because I feel like it can take people a long time to get to that spot or they never get to that spot of liking something or deciding to like something.
因为我觉得人们可能需要很长时间才能到达那个位置，或者他们永远不会到达喜欢某事物或决定喜欢某事物的那个位置。
Yeah.
是的。
I feel like I've changed so much.
我感觉我改变了很多。
I'm pretty proud of myself for accepting, for getting over it.
我为自己接受并克服它感到非常自豪。
For getting over the change.
为了克服变化。
I hope that my college is something like Whittier, because I would get around so well.
我希望我的大学像惠蒂尔大学那样，因为我可以很好地适应。
There's a thing adults tell kids all the time, especially teenagers-- you make your own happiness.
成年人总是告诉孩子们，尤其是青少年，有一件事——幸福是你自己创造的。
It's all about your outlook on things.
这完全取决于你对事物的看法。
It's such an irritating cliche.
这真是令人恼火的陈词滥调。
But sometimes it's true.
但有时这是真的。
Ira Glass Miki Meek is one of the producers of our program.
Ira Glass Miki Meek 是我们节目的制作人之一。
Credits Ira Glass Our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo with Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
鸣谢 Ira Glass 今天我们的节目由 Stephanie Foo 与 Zoe Chace、Sean Cole、Chana Joffe-Walt、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike 共同制作。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Editing help from Joel Lovell and production help from Simon Adler.
乔尔·洛弗尔 (Joel Lovell) 提供编辑帮助，西蒙·阿德勒 (Simon Adler) 提供制作帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our office manager.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Research help today from Michelle Harris and Christopher Swetala.
米歇尔·哈里斯 (Michelle Harris) 和克里斯托弗·斯韦塔拉 (Christopher Swetala) 今天为研究提供了帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef and Rob Geddis.
Damien Graef 和 Rob Geddis 提供音乐帮助。
Special thanks today to Erika Thompson, Kelly Bender, Jason Reifler, Brendan Nyhan, Robert Cialdini, Gus Levine, and Mark Phillips.
今天特别感谢 Erika Thompson、Kelly Bender、Jason Reifler、Brendan Nyhan、Robert Cialdini、Gus Levine 和 Mark Phillips。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He was doing yoga for a while to relax, but it was not working.
他做了一段瑜伽来放松，但没有效果。
I'm not doing that no more.
我不会再这样做了。
What I'm doing is marijuana.
我正在做的是大麻。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
This American Life This American Life 与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。