545: If You Don’t Have Anything Nice to Say, SAY IT IN ALL CAPS - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #545 | January 1, 2016 545: If You Don’t Have Anything Nice to Say, SAY IT IN ALL CAPS Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 545 集 | 2016 年 1 月 1 日 545：如果您没有什么好话要说，请全部大写地说 注意：《This American Life》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
If you are able, we strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page.
如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass (HOST) IRA GLASS: OK.
序言 Ira Glass（主持人） IRA GLASS： 好的。
So let's all just pause here for a second for something that is so rare on public radio or, you know, I guess, anywhere, actually.
因此，让我们在这里暂停一下，看看公共广播电台或实际上在任何地方都很少见的事情。
Let's pause for something that everyone can agree on.
让我们暂停一下，讨论一些大家都同意的事情。
Something that doesn't divide Republicans and Democrats, Sunni and Shia, Taylor Swift fans and Katy Perry fans.
共和党和民主党、逊尼派和什叶派、泰勒·斯威夫特的粉丝和凯蒂·佩里的粉丝都不会分裂。
This something that I found like that everybody can agree on is a graphic.
我发现每个人都同意的东西是图形。
It's a graphic that somebody showed me on the internet.
这是有人在互联网上向我展示的图表。
It's an optical illusion created by a professor at MIT who studies vision and the brain.
这是麻省理工学院一位研究视觉和大脑的教授创造的一种视错觉。
And basically, there are two gray boxes.
基本上，有两个灰色框。
One of them is surrounded by lighter stuff so it looks darker, and the other gray box is surrounded by darker stuff so it looks lighter.
其中一个被较浅的东西包围，所以看起来更暗，另一个灰色的盒子被较暗的东西包围，所以看起来更亮。
But in fact, the whole point of it is it's an optical illusion.
但事实上，它的重点在于它是一种视错觉。
The two gray squares are exactly the same shade of gray.
两个灰色方块的灰色深浅完全相同。
Now, that's just a fact.
现在，这只是事实。
But of course, since this graphic is on the internet, there's a comment section.
当然，由于这张图是在互联网上的，所以有一个评论部分。
And you might think, what would you possibly comment on?
您可能会想，您可能会评论什么？
Right?
正确的？
It doesn't seem like there's anything, really, here to discuss.
看起来确实没有什么可讨论的。
Gray is gray.
灰色就是灰色。
And I'll refrain from a Fifty Shades of Gray joke here and just say, when you scroll down through the comments, people do find a way to disagree, even about this.
我不会在这里开五十度灰的玩笑，只是说，当你向下滚动评论时，人们确实找到了一种不同的方式，即使是在这一点上。
And I don't know, maybe you've been on the internet-- they like to curse about it.
我不知道，也许你上网过——他们喜欢咒骂它。
One person writes, "what a load of shit.
一个人写道：“真是一堆狗屎。
They are different colors." Another writes, "not the same [BEEP] shade." Says a third, "not convinced."
它们的颜色不同。”另一位写道，“不一样的[BEEP]色调。”第三个人说，“不相信。”
Then people start in with advice.
然后人们开始提出建议。
And at first, they're like, super nice about it, right?
一开始，他们感觉非常好，对吧？
They're trying to be helpful.
他们正在努力提供帮助。
They tell the doubters to take their fingers and cover over everything but the two gray squares on their screen and they'll see they are the same color.
他们告诉怀疑者用手指遮住屏幕上除了两个灰色方块之外的所有东西，他们会发现它们是相同的颜色。
Several people suggested they can open up the file on Photoshop or MS Paint and use the Dropper tool to see the exact RGB values of the colors and they'll see that they're the same.
有几个人建议他们可以在 Photoshop 或 MS Paint 上打开该文件，然后使用 Dropper 工具查看颜色的确切 RGB 值，他们会发现它们是相同的。
By the way, 120, 120, 120 with 160 hue, 113 loom.
顺便说一句，120、120、120与160色相、113隐约可见。
After all of that, somebody still writes, "The second square looks brighter to me." Somebody else replies, "It's definitely brighter than you." People start calling each other stupid, which of course leads to the kind of big, overbroad, sweeping statement you see in comment sections everywhere.
毕竟，有人仍然写道：“对我来说，第二个正方形看起来更亮。”还有人回答：“肯定比你亮。”人们开始互相骂对方愚蠢，这当然导致了你在评论区随处可见的那种大的、过于宽泛的、笼统的声明。
Quote, "If after reading this thread, you refuse to actually test it and choose to stick with your dogmatic belief, then you are everything that is wrong with America."
引用：“如果读完这篇文章后，你拒绝实际测试它并选择坚持你的教条主义信仰，那么你就是美国的问题所在。”
You know, I think we're all so used to all kinds of ugliness online in comment sections and Twitter and Facebook and everywhere else.
你知道，我想我们都已经习惯了网上评论区、推特、脸书以及其他地方的各种丑陋行为。
At this point, most of us don't even give it a second thought.
在这一点上，我们大多数人甚至不会再考虑一下。
And so today on our radio show, we decided, well, let's give it a second thought.
所以今天在我们的广播节目中，我们决定，好吧，让我们再考虑一下。
Let's dive into the bile.
让我们深入探讨胆汁。
Let's dive into the hate and look around and see whatever we can understand.
让我们深入研究仇恨，环顾四周，看看我们能理解什么。
Let's ask the dumbest questions.
让我们问最愚蠢的问题。
Like, why so mad?
比如，为什么这么生气？
And if you are so mad, why go to the trouble to tell strangers how mad you are?
如果你真的很生气，为什么还要费力地告诉陌生人你有多生气呢？
From WBEZ Chicago, this is an hour of stories with some very upset, anonymous people who we get to know a little bit.
这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的一个小时的故事，讲述了一些我们对一些非常沮丧的匿名人士的故事。
It's This American Life.
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Stay with us.
留在我们身边。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Act one, "Ask Not for Whom the Bell Trolls.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：第一幕，“不要问钟声巨魔为谁而战。
It Trolls for Thee." Let's begin with the worst case scenario of things that can happen on the internet with a troll.
它为你而巨魔。”让我们从互联网上巨魔可能发生的最坏情况开始。
In fact, a kind of exceptional troll.
事实上，这是一种特殊的巨魔。
Trolls, of course, are people who post hate and abuse online.
当然，巨魔是指在网上发布仇恨和辱骂言论的人。
They use comments sections in social media to hound people and shriek at people.
他们利用社交媒体上的评论区追捕人们并对人们尖叫。
Studies show that both men and women are harassed online, but women get way more malicious messages.
研究表明，男性和女性都会受到网络骚扰，但女性收到的恶意信息要多得多。
And they're way more likely to be stalked online or sexually harassed.
而且他们更有可能在网上遭到跟踪或性骚扰。
Lindy West is a writer who's written for a lot of places like Jezebel and GQ and The Guardian .
Lindy West 是一位作家，为 Jezebel、GQ 和卫报等许多网站撰稿。
Her work is online, so she is very familiar with internet trolls and she has our story.
她的工作是在线的，所以她对网络巨魔非常熟悉，她有我们的故事。
Quick warning to podcast listeners.
向播客听众发出快速警告。
From this point forward, we are not going to beep anything in today's show.
从现在开始，我们不会在今天的节目中发出任何声音。
If you prefer a beeped version of our show, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.
如果您喜欢我们节目的嘟嘟声版本，您可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上找到该版本。
Here's Lindy.
这是林迪。
(HOST) LINDY WEST: One midsummer afternoon in 2013, I got a message on Twitter from my dead dad.
（主持人）LINDY WEST：2013 年仲夏的一个下午，我在 Twitter 上收到了我死去的父亲发来的一条消息。
I don't remember what it said exactly and I didn't keep a copy for my scrapbook, but it was mean.
我不记得它具体说了什么，我也没有在我的剪贴簿上保留一份副本，但它很刻薄。
And my dad was never mean, so it couldn't really be from him.
而且我的父亲从来都不是刻薄的人，所以这不可能真的是他出的。
Also, he was dead.
而且，他已经死了。
Just 18 months earlier, I'd watched him turn gray and drown in his own lungs.
就在 18 个月前，我还眼睁睁地看着他的脸色变白，淹没在自己的肺里。
So I was, like, 80% sure.
所以我有 80% 的把握。
And I don't believe in heaven.
而且我不相信有天堂。
And even if I did, I'd hope to god they don't have fucking Twitter there.
即使我这样做了，我也希望上帝那里没有他妈的推特。
It's heaven.
这是天堂。
Go play chocolate badminton on a cloud with Jerry Orbach and your childhood cat.
和杰瑞·奥尔巴赫以及你儿时的猫一起在云上打巧克力羽毛球。
But there was a message.
但有一条消息。
Some context.
一些背景。
In the summer of 2013, in certain circles of the internet, comedians and feminists were at war over rape jokes.
2013年夏天，在互联网的某些圈子里，喜剧演员和女权主义者就强奸笑话展开了争论。
Being both a comedy writer and a committed feminist killjoy, I weighed in with an article in which I said that I think a lot of male comedians are careless with the subject of rape.
作为一名喜剧作家和一个坚定的女权主义者，我发表了一篇文章，其中我说我认为很多男性喜剧演员对强奸的主题很粗心。
Here's just a sample of the responses I got on social media.
这只是我在社交媒体上收到的回复的示例。
A quick warning-- these are internet comments about rape, so it's going to suck.
快速警告——这些是关于强奸的互联网评论，所以它会很糟糕。
"I love how the bitch complaining about rape is the exact kind of bitch that would never be raped." "Holes like this make me want to commit rape out of anger." "I just want to rape her with a traffic cone."
“我喜欢抱怨强奸的女人是永远不会被强奸的女人。” “这样的洞让我愤怒地想要实施强奸。” “我只想用交通锥强奸她。”
"No one would want to rape that fat, disgusting mess." "Kill yourself." "I want to put an apple into that mouth of yours and take a huge stick and slide it through your body and roast you." "That big bitch is bitter that no one wants to rape her."
“没有人愿意强奸那一团又肥又恶心的烂摊子。” “自杀吧。” “我想把一个苹果放进你的嘴里，然后拿一根大棍子穿过你的身体，把你烤熟。” “那个大母狗很痛苦，没人想强奸她。”
It went on like that for weeks.
这样的情况持续了几个星期。
It's something I'm used to.
这是我已经习惯的事情。
I have to be.
我必须如此。
Being insulted and threatened online is part of my job, which is not to say it doesn't hurt.
在网上受到侮辱和威胁是我工作的一部分，但这并不是说这不会造成伤害。
It does.
确实如此。
It feels, well, exactly like you'd imagine it would feel to have someone call you a fat cunt every day of your life.
这种感觉，嗯，就像你想象的每天有人叫你胖子的感觉一样。
When I got that message from my dad, it was well into rape joke summer.
当我从父亲那里收到这条消息时，已经进入了强奸笑话的夏天。
I was eating 30 rape threats for breakfast at that point.
那时我早餐吃了 30 个强奸威胁。
Or more accurately, "you're fatter than the girls I usually rape" threats.
或者更准确地说，“你比我通常强奸的女孩还胖”的威胁。
And I thought I was coping.
我以为我已经应付了。
But if you get a blade sharp enough, it'll cut through anything.
但如果你的刀片足够锋利，它就能切开任何东西。
The account was called PawWestDonezo.
该帐户名为 PawWestDonezo。
Paw West because his name was Paul West.
Paw West，因为他的名字叫保罗·韦斯特。
And Donezo because, I guess, he was done.
还有多内佐，因为我想，他已经完了。
He was done being alive, done doing crossword puzzles, done forcing me to sing duets at dinner parties.
他不再活着，不再做填字游戏，也不再强迫我在晚宴上二重唱。
Done writing little poems on the back of every receipt.
在每张收据的背面写下小诗。
Done being my dad.
做完我爸爸了。
The little bio on Twitter read, "embarrassed father of an idiot." Other two kids are fine, though.
推特上的小简介写道：“一个白痴的尴尬父亲。”不过其他两个孩子都很好。
His location-- dirt hole in Seattle.
他的位置——西雅图的泥土洞。
The profile photo was a familiar picture of him.
头像是他熟悉的照片。
He's sitting at his piano smiling in the living room of the house where I grew up.
在我长大的房子的客厅里，他坐在钢琴前微笑。
The day they sold that house, when I was 25, I sat on the stairs and sobbed harder than I ever had before.
他们卖掉那栋房子的那天，当时我 25 岁，我坐在楼梯上，哭得比以前更厉害。
Because a place is kind of like a person, you know?
因为一个地方就像一个人，你知道吗？
It felt like death.
感觉就像死了一样。
I wouldn't cry that hard again until December 12, 2011, when I'd learn that a place is not like a person at all.
直到2011年12月12日我才知道一个地方根本不像一个人时，我才会再哭得那么厉害。
Only a person is a person.
只有一个人才是一个人。
Only a death is really a death.
只有死亡才是真正的死亡。
My dad lost consciousness on a Saturday night.
我父亲在周六晚上失去了知觉。
That afternoon, when we could feel his lucidity slipping, we called my brother in Boston.
那天下午，当我们感觉到他的清醒度正在下降时，我们打电话给我在波士顿的兄弟。
You were such a special little boy, he said.
你真是个特别的小男孩，他说。
I love you very much.
我非常爱你。
He didn't say very many things after that.
此后他并没有说很多话。
I would give anything for one more sentence.
为了多说一句话，我愿意付出任何代价。
I would give anything for 140 more characters.
为了再多 140 个字符，我愿意付出任何代价。
The person who made the PawWestDonezo account clearly put some time into it.
创建 PawWestDonezo 帐户的人显然投入了一些时间。
They'd researched my father and my family.
他们研究了我的父亲和我的家人。
They'd found out his name.
他们已经知道了他的名字。
And then they figured out which Paul West he was among all the Paul Wests on the internet.
然后他们找出了互联网上所有保罗·韦斯特中的哪个保罗·韦斯特。
They knew that I have a brother and a sister.
他们知道我有一个兄弟和一个姐妹。
And if they knew all that, they must have known how recently we'd lost my dad.
如果他们知道这一切，他们一定知道我们最近失去了我的父亲。
Conventional wisdom says never feed the trolls.
传统观点认为永远不要喂巨魔。
Don't respond.
不要回应。
It's what they want.
这就是他们想要的。
I do that.
我这样做。
It doesn't help.
这没有帮助。
I could just stop reading comments altogether, but sometimes I get threatening ones.
我可以完全停止阅读评论，但有时我会收到威胁性的评论。
Like the other day, someone said I should get Charlie Hebdoed.
就像前几天一样，有人说我应该买《查理周刊》。
Colleagues of mine have had their addresses published online, had trolls actually show up in person at their public events.
我的同事们已经将他们的地址公布在网上，而巨魔实际上亲自出现在他们的公共活动中。
If I don't read comments, how will I know when they've crossed the line?
如果我不阅读评论，我怎么知道他们已经越界了？
I could just stop writing altogether.
我可以完全停止写作。
I've thought about it.
我已经考虑过了。
But it seems to me that our silence is what the trolls want.
但在我看来，我们的沉默正是巨魔想要的。
Faced with PawWestDonezo, I was stuck with the question, what should I do?
面对PawWestDonezo，我被一个问题困住了，我该怎么办？
If I respond, I'm a sucker.
如果我回答的话，我就是个傻瓜。
But if I don't respond, I'm a punching bag.
但如果我不回应，我就是一个出气筒。
So I did what you're not supposed to do.
所以我做了你不该做的事。
I fed the troll.
我喂了巨魔。
I wrote about PawWestDonezo in an article for Jezebel.com.
我在 Jezebel.com 的一篇文章中写了有关 PawWestDonezo 的文章。
I wrote sadly, candidly, angrily about how much it hurt.
我悲伤地、坦率地、愤怒地写下了这件事有多么痛苦。
How much that troll had succeeded.
那个巨魔已经成功了多少。
And then something amazing happened.
然后奇妙的事情发生了。
The morning after that post went up, I got an email.
这篇文章发布的第二天早上，我收到了一封电子邮件。
"Hey, Lindy, I don't know why or even when I started trolling you.
“嘿，林迪，我不知道为什么，甚至不知道什么时候我开始恶搞你。
It wasn't because of your stance on rape jokes.
这不是因为你对强奸笑话的立场。
I don't find them funny, either.
我也不觉得它们好笑。
I think my anger towards you stems from your happiness with your own being.
我认为我对你的愤怒源于你对自己存在的快乐。
It offended me because it served to highlight my unhappiness with my own self.
它冒犯了我，因为它凸显了我对自己的不满。
I have emailed you through two other Gmail accounts just to send you idiotic insults.
我通过另外两个 Gmail 帐户向您发送了电子邮件，只是为了向您发送愚蠢的侮辱。
I apologize for that.
我对此表示歉意。
I created the [email protected] account and Twitter account.
我创建了 [email protected] 帐户和 Twitter 帐户。
I have deleted both.
我已经把两者都删除了。
I can't say sorry enough.
我无法说足够的抱歉。
It was the lowest thing I had ever done.
这是我做过的最低级的事情。
When you included it in your latest Jezebel article, it finally hit me.
当你将它包含在最新的耶洗别文章中时，我终于受到了打击。
There is a living, breathing human being who is reading this shit.
有一个活生生的人在读这篇文章。
I'm attacking someone who never harmed me in any way and for no reason whatsoever.
我正在攻击一个从未以任何方式、无缘无故地伤害过我的人。
I'm done being a troll.
我已经不再是一个巨魔了。
Again, I apologize.
我再次道歉。
I made a donation in memory to your dad.
我向你父亲捐款以纪念你。
I wish you the best."
我祝你一切顺利。”
They attached a receipt for a $50 donation to Seattle Cancer Care Alliance, where my dad was treated.
他们附上了一张向西雅图癌症护理联盟捐款 50 美元的收据，我父亲就是在那里接受治疗的。
I guess he found that out in his research, too.
我想他在研究中也发现了这一点。
It was designated Memorial Paul West.
它被指定为纪念保罗·韦斯特。
I didn't know what to say.
我不知道该说什么。
I wrote, "Is this real?
我写道：“这是真的吗？
If so, thank you."
如果是的话，谢谢你。”
The troll wrote back one more time, apologized again, and this time, he gave me his real name.
巨魔再次回信，再次道歉，这一次，他告诉了我他的真实姓名。
I could have posted it online, which he knew.
我可以把它发布到网上，他知道这一点。
But I didn't and I'm not going to be saying it here, either.
但我没有，也不打算在这里说。
That was almost 18 months ago.
那是差不多18个月前的事了。
But I still think about it all the time.
但我仍然时时刻刻都在想这件事。
Because I still get trolled every day.
因为我还是每天都被欺负。
If I could get through to one troll-- the meanest one I ever had-- couldn't I feasibly get through to any of them?
如果我能联系到一个巨魔——我遇到过的最卑鄙的一个——我难道就不能联系到他们中的任何一个吗？
All of them?
他们全部？
Was he special or did I do something right?
是他很特别还是我做对了什么？
I wonder how he would tell me to respond to the people trolling me today.
我想知道他会告诉我如何回应今天那些攻击我的人。
I wish I could ask him.
我希望我能问他。
But then I realized, I could.
但后来我意识到，我可以。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: I don't know.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特： 我不知道。
I guess I'm just kind of nervous.
我想我只是有点紧张。
But it'll be OK, right?
但一切都会好起来的，对吧？
(HOST) LINDY WEST: This is me in a studio with producer Chana Joffe-Walt and a phone.
（主持人）LINDY WEST：这是我和制片人 Chana Joffe-Walt 一起在工作室里，还有一部手机。
Hello?
你好？
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Hello?
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特： 你好？
Hello.
你好。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Hi, how are you?
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：嗨，你好吗？
I got to tell you, I'm really nervous at the moment.
我必须告诉你，我现在真的很紧张。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: I'm a little nervous also.
（采访者） LINDY WEST：我也有点紧张。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: No. No, not at all.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特： 不，不，一点也不。
(HOST) LINDY WEST: I asked him why he chose me.
（主持人）林迪·韦斯特：我问他为什么选择我。
He'd said in his email that it wasn't because of the rape joke thing.
他在电子邮件中表示，这并不是因为强奸笑话。
So what exactly did I do?
那么我到底做了什么？
Well, it revolved around one issue that you write about a lot, which was your being heavy.
嗯，它围绕着一个你经常写的问题，那就是你太重了。
The struggles you had regarding being a woman of size, or whatever the term may be.
作为一个身材高大的女性，或者不管这个词是什么，你所经历的挣扎。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: You can say fat.
（采访者） LINDY WEST：你可以说是胖。
That's what I say.
我就是这么说的。
OK.
好的。
Fat.
胖的。
Lindy West (HOST) LINDY WEST: I write a lot about body image.
Lindy West（主持人） LINDY WEST：我写了很多关于身体形象的文章。
About the stigma and discrimination that fat people face.
关于胖子面临的耻辱和歧视。
About being a fat woman.
关于成为一个胖女人。
He told me that, at the time, he was about 75 pounds heavier than he wanted to be.
他告诉我，当时他比他想要的重约 75 磅。
He hated his body.
他讨厌自己的身体。
He was miserable.
他很痛苦。
And reading about fat people-- particularly fat women-- accepting and loving themselves as they were infuriated him for reasons he couldn't articulate at the time.
当他读到关于胖人——尤其是胖女人——接受和爱自己的故事时，他被激怒了，原因他当时无法清楚地表达出来。
When you talked about being proud of who you are and where you are and where are you're going, that kind of stoked that anger that I had.
当你谈到为你是谁、你在哪里以及你要去哪里感到自豪时，这激起了我的愤怒。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: OK.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：好的。
So you found my writing.
所以你找到了我的作品。
You found my writing.
你发现了我的写作。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: And you did not like it.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：而你不喜欢它。
Certain aspects of it.
它的某些方面。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Yeah.
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特： 是的。
You're just a very-- you almost have no fear when you write.
你写作时几乎没有恐惧。
You know?
你知道？
It's like you stand on the desk and you say, this is-- I'm Lindy West and this is what I believe.
就像你站在桌子上说，这是——我是林迪·韦斯特，这就是我所相信的。
And you know, fuck you if you don't agree with me.
你知道，如果你不同意我的观点，去你妈的。
And I-- even though you don't say those words exactly, I'm like, who is this bitch who thinks she knows everything?
而我——即使你没有准确地说出这些话，我就想，这个自以为知道一切的婊子是谁？
(HOST) LINDY WEST: I asked him if he felt that way because I'm a woman.
（主持人）LINDY WEST：我问他是否因为我是女性而有这样的感觉。
Oh, definitely.
哦，当然。
Definitely.
确实。
Women are being more forthright in their writing.
女性在写作中更加直率。
You know, they're not-- there isn't a sense of timidity to when they speak or when they write.
你知道，他们在说话或写作时没有任何胆怯感。
They're saying it loud.
他们大声地说。
And I think that-- and I think-- for me, as well-- it's threatening at first.
我认为——而且我认为——对我来说——一开始也是有威胁的。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Right.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特： 是的。
You must know that I-- that's why I do that.
你一定知道我——这就是我这么做的原因。
Because people don't expect to hear from women like that.
因为人们不希望听到这样的女性的声音。
And I want other women to see me do that and I want women's voices to get louder.
我希望其他女性看到我这样做，我希望女性的声音变得更大。
I understand.
我明白。
I understand.
我明白。
Here's the thing.
事情是这样的。
I work with women all day.
我整天和女人一起工作。
And I don't have an issue with anyone.
而且我和任何人都没有问题。
I could have told you back then, if someone had said to me, oh you're a misogynist.
那时，如果有人对我说，哦，你是个厌恶女性的人，我本可以告诉你。
You hate women.
你讨厌女人。
And I could say, nah-ah.
我可以说，不啊。
I love my mom, I love my sisters.
我爱我的妈妈，我爱我的姐妹们。
You know, I've loved my girlfriends that I've had in my life.
你知道，我很爱我一生中拥有的女朋友。
But you can't claim to be OK with women and then you go online and insult them.
但你不能声称自己对女性很满意，然后你就上网侮辱她们。
You know?
你知道？
Seek them out to harm them emotionally.
寻找他们来伤害他们的情感。
(HOST) LINDY WEST: In my experience, if you call a troll a misogynist, he'll almost invariably say, oh, I don't hate women.
（主持人）林迪·韦斯特：根据我的经验，如果你称一个巨魔为厌恶女性的人，他几乎总是会说，哦，我不讨厌女人。
I just hate what you're saying.
我只是讨厌你说的话。
And what that other woman is saying.
还有那个女人在说什么。
And that woman.
还有那个女人。
And that one.
还有那个。
For totally unrelated reasons.
出于完全不相关的原因。
So it was satisfying, at least, to hear him admit that, yeah, he hated women.
所以至少，听到他承认他讨厌女人是令人满意的。
He says he doesn't troll anymore and that he's really changed.
他说他不再恶搞了，他真的变了。
He tells me that period of time-- when he was trolling me for being loud and fat-- was a low point for him.
他告诉我那段时间——当他因为我又吵又胖而嘲笑我时——对他来说是一个低谷。
He hated his body.
他讨厌自己的身体。
His girlfriend dumped him.
他的女朋友抛弃了他。
He spent every day in front of a computer at an unfulfilling job.
他每天都坐在电脑前，做着一份不尽如人意的工作。
A passionless life, he called it.
他称之为毫无激情的生活。
And then gradually, he changed.
然后渐渐地，他就变了。
He enrolled in graduate school.
他就读于研究生院。
He found a new relationship.
他找到了新的关系。
He started teaching little kids.
他开始教小孩子。
He had a purpose.
他有一个目的。
Slowly, his interest in trolling dried up.
慢慢地，他对恶搞的兴趣消失了。
We verified nearly everything that he told us about himself, except did he really stop trolling?
我们几乎验证了他告诉我们的关于他自己的一切，除了他真的停止恶搞了吗？
I have no way of knowing, but I believe him.
我无从得知，但我相信他。
It felt true.
感觉是真的。
And if this was all a con, it's one that cost him a $50 charity donation.
如果这一切都是骗局的话，他也因此损失了 50 美元的慈善捐款。
We talked for over two hours.
我们聊了两个多小时。
And I spent a lot of time trying to get him to walk me through his transgressions in detail.
我花了很多时间试图让他详细地向我讲述他的违法行为。
The actual physical and mental steps and how he justified it all to himself.
实际的身体和精神步骤以及他如何向自己证明这一切是合理的。
I felt like if I could just get the specifics-- gather them up and hold them in my hands-- then maybe I could start to understand all the people who are still trolling me.
我觉得如果我能了解具体情况——把它们收集起来并握在手里——那么也许我就能开始理解所有仍在攻击我的人。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: How did you even find out that my dad died?
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：你是怎么知道我父亲去世的？
How did you--
你怎么——
I went to my computer.
我走到电脑前。
I googled you, found out you had a father who had passed.
我用谷歌搜索了你，发现你有一个去世的父亲。
I found out that he had-- you had siblings.
我发现他有——你有兄弟姐妹。
I forget if it was three total.
我忘记了是不是总共三个。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: I have two siblings.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：我有两个兄弟姐妹。
So-- Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Did you read his obituary?
那么—— Lindy West（采访者） LINDY WEST：你读过他的讣告吗？
I believe I did.
我相信我做到了。
I knew he was a musician.
我知道他是一位音乐家。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Yeah.
（采访者）林迪·韦斯特：是的。
I wrote that.
我写的。
I wrote his obituary.
我写了他的讣告。
What I did was this.
我所做的就是这个。
I created a fake Gmail account using your father's name.
我用你父亲的名字创建了一个假 Gmail 帐户。
Created a fake Twitter account using his name.
使用他的名字创建了一个虚假的 Twitter 帐户。
The biography was something to the effect of, my name is-- um, sorry, I forget the name-- the first name.
传记的大意是，我的名字是——嗯，抱歉，我忘了名字——名字。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: His name was Paul West.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：他的名字是保罗·韦斯特。
It said-- I wrote, my name is Paul West.
上面写着——我写的，我的名字是保罗·韦斯特。
I've got three kids.
我有三个孩子。
Two of them are great and one of them is an idiot.
其中两个是伟大的，其中一个是白痴。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Yeah, you said, "embarrassed father of an idiot."
（采访者）林迪·韦斯特：是的，你说，“白痴的尴尬父亲。”
OK.
好的。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: "Other two kids are fine, though." And then--
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：“不过，其他两个孩子都很好。”然后——
That's much more worse.
那就更糟糕了。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: And you got a picture of him.
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：你有一张他的照片。
I did get a picture of him.
我确实得到了他的照片。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Did you-- do you remember anything about him?
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特： 你还记得关于他的任何事情吗？
Did he-- did you get a sense of him as a human being?
他——你了解他作为一个人了吗？
I read the obit and I knew he was a dad that loved his kids?
我读了讣告，我知道他是一位爱孩子的父亲？
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: How did that make you feel?
（采访者） LINDY WEST：这让你感觉如何？
Not good.
不好。
I mean, I felt horrible almost immediately afterwards.
我的意思是，事后我几乎立即感到可怕。
You tweeted something along the lines of, good job today, society.
你在推特上发了一些类似“今天干得好，社会”的内容。
Or something along those lines.
或者类似的东西。
It just wouldn't-- for the first time, it wouldn't leave my mind.
它只是不会——这是第一次，它不会离开我的脑海。
Usually, I would put out all this internet hate and oftentimes I would just forget about it.
通常，我会消除所有这些互联网仇恨，但很多时候我会忘记它。
This one would not leave me.
这个人不会离开我。
It would not leave me.
它不会离开我。
I started thinking about you because I know you had read it.
我开始想你，因为我知道你读过它。
And I'm thinking, how would she feel?
我在想，她会有什么感觉？
And the next day, I wrote you.
第二天，我写信给你。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Yeah.
（采访者）林迪·韦斯特：是的。
Well, I--
嗯，我——
(SUBJECT) MAN: And I truly am sorry about that.
（主题）男：对此我真的很抱歉。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Yeah, I mean-- have you lost anyone?
（采访者） LINDY WEST：是的，我的意思是——你失去过任何人吗？
Can you imagine?
你能想象吗？
Can you imagine?
你能想象吗？
I can't.
我不能。
I can't.
我不能。
I don't know what else to say except that I'm sorry.
除了抱歉我不知道还能说什么。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Well, you know, I get abuse all day, everyday.
（采访者）林迪·韦斯特：嗯，你知道，我每天都受到虐待。
It's part of my job.
这是我工作的一部分。
And this was the meanest thing anyone's ever done to me.
这是任何人对我做过的最卑鄙的事情。
Oh.
哦。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: I mean, abso-- I mean, it was really fresh.
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：我的意思是，绝对——我的意思是，它真的很新鲜。
He had just died.
他刚刚去世。
But you're also-- you're the only troll who has ever apologized.
但你也是——你是唯一一个道歉过的巨魔。
Not just to me.
不只是对我来说。
I've never heard of this happening before.
我以前从未听说过这种情况发生。
I mean, I don't know anyone who's ever-- who's ever gotten an apology.
我的意思是，我不知道有谁曾经得到过道歉。
And I just-- I mean, you know, thank you.
我只是——我的意思是，你知道，谢谢。
I--
我——
(HOST) LINDY WEST: Honestly, I did have some solace.
（主持人）LINDY WEST：说实话，我确实得到了一些安慰。
I forgave him.
我原谅了他。
I felt sorry for him.
我为他感到难过。
It's so difficult to believe that anyone ever really changes.
很难相信有人会真正改变。
And he did it.
他做到了。
I found immense comfort in that.
我从中找到了极大的安慰。
Toward the end of our conversation, I remembered that, in his email, he confessed that he'd harassed me from multiple troll accounts, not just PawWestDonezo.
在我们的谈话即将结束时，我记得在他的电子邮件中，他承认他通过多个巨魔帐户骚扰了我，而不仅仅是 PawWestDonezo。
Did I ever write back?
我有回信吗？
Was there anything I didn't know?
难道还有什么我不知道的事吗？
He said, yeah.
他说，是啊。
One time, he'd sent something mean from his personal account and I retweeted it to all my 40,000 followers.
有一次，他从他的个人帐户中发送了一些恶意内容，我将其转发给了我所有的 40,000 名粉丝。
He was mortified.
他感到羞愧。
And I'm trying to remember what it was about.
我正在努力记住它是关于什么的。
I think you had mentioned a comedian.
我想你提到了一位喜剧演员。
You had tweeted about a comedian who had threatened to throw his girlfriend down the stairs.
你曾在推特上提到一位喜剧演员威胁要将女友扔下楼梯。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Oh, no. He said he wished that I would fall down a flight of stairs.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：哦，不。他说他希望我从楼梯上摔下来。
Oh, OK.
哦，好吧。
And I think I said, like-- I don't know if I retweeted it or I-- what did I say?
我想我说过，就像——我不知道我是否转发了它，或者我——我说什么了？
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Oh.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：哦。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
I remember you.
我记得你。
OK.
好的。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Oh, my god.
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：哦，天啊。
You said something like, I wish I could be the one to push her or something.
你说过类似的话，我希望我能成为那个推动她的人什么的。
Or--
或者——
(SUBJECT) MAN: Or I thought it was, too bad Lindy isn't your girlfriend.
（对象） 男人：或者我也这么认为，可惜 Lindy 不是你的女朋友。
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
（采访者）林迪·韦斯特：噢，是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。
Oh, my god.
我的天啊。
I remember you.
我记得你。
Yeah.
是的。
That's me.
这就是我。
I'm a dick.
我是个屌丝
[LINDY LAUGHS]
[林迪笑]
(INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: I can't believe-- I mean, I-- there's so many trolls.
（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：我不敢相信——我的意思是，我——有这么多的巨魔。
I can't believe-- I can't believe I remember you.
我不敢相信——我不敢相信我还记得你。
Yeah, that was me.
是的，那就是我。
Lindy West (HOST) LINDY WEST: At this point, my producer Chana, who'd been listening, couldn't stop herself from jumping in.
林迪·韦斯特（主持人） 林迪·韦斯特：这时，一直在听的我的制作人查娜忍不住插话了。
(SUBJECT) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: God, hearing you guys, you sound like you're like, oh, you went to that high school?
（主题）CHANA JOFFE-WALT： 天啊，听你们说，你们听起来好像在说，哦，你们上过那所高中？
I went to that high school, too?
我也读过那个高中？
Holy cow!
圣牛！
Yeah.
是的。
Lindy West (INTERVIEWER) LINDY WEST: Well, you know, I mean it's such a normalized part of my life now.
林迪·韦斯特（采访者） 林迪·韦斯特：嗯，你知道，我的意思是它现在已经成为我生活中正常的一部分。
I mean, honestly-- and it's kind of a relief to talk to someone who really knows what I'm talking about, even though he's coming at it from the other direction.
我的意思是，老实说，与真正了解我在说什么的人交谈是一种解脱，即使他是从另一个方向来看的。
You know, there's almost no one who understands--
你知道，几乎没有人能理解——
Well, you know what?
嗯，你知道吗？
As a former troll, I never told a single living human being until now that I did this.
作为一名前巨魔，直到现在我还从未告诉过任何一个活着的人我做了这件事。
So it's good, in a way, to get that off my chest.
所以从某种意义上说，把这个问题从我心里吐出来是件好事。
To get my secret life-- my old life-- I don't know.
为了获得我的秘密生活——我以前的生活——我不知道。
It just feels good to kind of exorcise these demons.
驱除这些恶魔的感觉真好。
(HOST) LINDY WEST: It felt really easy-- comfortable, even-- to talk to my troll.
（主持人）LINDY WEST：与我的巨魔交谈感觉非常轻松、舒适、均匀。
I liked him and I didn't know what to do with that.
我喜欢他，但我不知道该怎么办。
It's frightening to discover that he's so normal.
发现他如此正常真是令人恐惧。
He has female co-workers who enjoy his company.
他有一些喜欢和他在一起的女同事。
He has a real live girlfriend who loves him.
他有一个真正爱他的女朋友。
They have no idea that he used to go online and traumatize women for fun.
他们不知道他曾经为了好玩而上网伤害女性。
Trolls live among us.
巨魔就生活在我们中间。
I've gotten anonymous comments from people saying they met me at a movie theater and I was a bitch or they served me at a restaurant and my boobs aren't as big as they look in pictures.
我收到一些匿名评论，有人说他们在电影院遇见我，而我是个婊子，或者他们在餐馆为我服务，而我的胸部并不像照片中看起来那么大。
People say it doesn't matter what happens on the internet-- that it's not real life.
人们说互联网上发生的事情并不重要——这不是现实生活。
But thanks to internet trolls, I'm perpetually reminded that the boundary between the civilized world and our worst selves is just an illusion.
但多亏了网络巨魔，我不断地提醒自己，文明世界和最糟糕的自我之间的界限只是一种幻觉。
Trolls still waste my time and tax my mental health on a daily basis.
巨魔仍然每天浪费我的时间并损害我的心理健康。
But honestly, I don't wish them any pain.
但说实话，我不希望他们受到任何痛苦。
Their pain is what got us here in the first place.
他们的痛苦是我们来到这里的首要原因。
That's what I learned from my troll.
这就是我从我的巨魔那里学到的。
If what he said is true-- that he just needed to find some meaning in his life-- then what a heartbreaking diagnosis for all the people who are still at it.
如果他所说的是真的——他只是需要在生活中找到一些意义——那么对于所有仍在这样做的人来说，这是一个多么令人心碎的诊断。
I can't give purpose and fulfillment to millions of anonymous strangers.
我无法给数以百万计的匿名陌生人带来目标和满足。
But I can remember not to lose sight of their humanity the way that they lost sight of mine.
但我记得不要像他们忽视我的人性一样忽视他们的人性。
Humans can be reached.
人类是可以到达的。
I have proof.
我有证据。
Empathy, boldness, kindness-- those are things I learned from my dad, though he never knew how much I'd need them.
同理心、勇敢、善良——这些都是我从父亲那里学到的东西，尽管他从来不知道我有多么需要它们。
Or maybe he did.
或者也许他做到了。
He was a jazz musician and when I was born he wrote a song about me.
他是一位爵士音乐家，当我出生时，他写了一首关于我的歌。
And listening to it now, it feels like he wrote it for just this moment.
现在听来，感觉他就是为了这一刻而写的。
I'll give the last word to him.
我会把最后一句话告诉他。
You got a lot of nerve, little girl.
你真是太有勇气了，小姑娘。
Bundles of nerve, little girl.
神经兮兮，小姑娘。
To come here in a season full of doubt and tattered reason.
在一个充满怀疑和破碎理性的季节来到这里。
In a world you don't deserve.
在一个你不值得的世界里。
You got a lot of nerve, little girl.
你真是太有勇气了，小姑娘。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Lindy West in Seattle.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：林迪·韦斯特，西雅图。
So since we first ran Lindy's story a year ago, something interesting happened.
自从一年前我们第一次报道林迪的故事以来，发生了一些有趣的事情。
Her story spurred a discussion inside Twitter that led its CEO at the time, Dick Costolo, to write a memo to employees that was leaked to the public.
她的故事引发了 Twitter 内部的一场讨论，导致时任首席执行官迪克·科斯特洛 (Dick Costolo) 向员工写了一份备忘录，该备忘录被泄露给公众。
It said, quote, "We suck at dealing with abuse and trolls.
引用说，“我们在处理虐待和巨魔方面很糟糕。
And we've sucked at it for years.
我们多年来一直对此感到厌烦。
It's no secret.
这不是什么秘密。
And the rest of the world talks about it every day.
世界其他地方每天都在谈论它。
I'm frankly ashamed of how poorly we've dealt with this issue.
坦率地说，我对我们在这个问题上处理得如此糟糕感到羞愧。
It's absurd.
这太荒谬了。
There's no excuse for it." In the months since then, Twitter has introduced some new anti-bullying tools and policies.
没有任何借口。”此后的几个月里，Twitter 推出了一些新的反欺凌工具和政策。
They've gotten decidedly mixed reviews, like "not far enough."
他们得到的评价显然褒贬不一，比如“还不够”。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Act two, "Freedom Fries." So the comments that we get from our listeners are usually nowhere as vicious as what Lindy West gets on a daily basis.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：第二幕，“自由薯条”。因此，我们从听众那里得到的评论通常不像林迪·韦斯特每天得到的那样恶毒。
But for a while now, the women on our staff have been getting emails like this one.
但一段时间以来，我们的女性员工一直收到这样的电子邮件。
Quote, "The voice of Chana Joffe-Walt is just too much to bear and I turn off any episode she's on.
引用：“查娜·乔菲-沃尔特的声音实在让人难以忍受，我关掉了她播放的所有剧集。
A quick bit of research found an appropriate description, which is vocal fry.
快速的研究发现了一个合适的描述，那就是发声鱼苗。
How can This American Life have this on the show?
《美国生活》怎么能在节目中出现这种情况？
It escapes me."
它逃脱了我。”
Vocal fry has gotten a bit of coverage on Public Radio in the last year, but if you have no idea what this is talking about, here's a clip of Chana.
去年，公共广播电台对 Vocal Fried 进行了一些报道，但如果您不知道这在说什么，请观看 Chana 的一段剪辑。
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: And Thompson kept hearing that term-- school to prison pipeline.
（主持人）CHANA JOFFE-WALT：汤普森一直听到这个词——从学校到监狱的管道。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: OK.
（主持人） IRA 格拉斯：好的。
Hear the way that her voice kind of creaks on the word pipeline?
听到她的声音在单词管道中嘎吱作响的声音了吗？
That's vocal fry.
那是发声的炸物。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: But it's not just Chana.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：但这不仅仅是查纳。
A man wrote us in November, quote, "Vocal fry is a growing fad among young American women.
一名男子在 11 月份写信给我们，引用的话说：“发声在美国年轻女性中越来越流行。
Miki Meek provides a vivid and grating example of this unfortunate affectation." Miki, by the way, sounds like this.
米基·米克为这种不幸的矫揉造作提供了一个生动而刺耳的例子。”顺便说一句，米基听起来是这样的。
(HOST) MIKI MEEK: She'd never experienced anything outside the church.
（主持人）MIKI MEEK：她从未经历过教堂之外的任何事情。
And she basically checked out on Will and the kids.
她基本上检查了威尔和孩子们。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Somebody wrote us about Alix Spiegel, who's been on our show many, many times.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：有人写信给我们介绍了 Alix Spiegel，她多次出现在我们的节目中。
Now co-hosts the NPR science program Invisibilia .
现在共同主持 NPR 科学节目 Invisibilia 。
Quote, "Perhaps Alix could cover the vocal fry epidemic.
引用：“也许阿利克斯可以报道有声鱼苗的流行。
It'd be really interesting to hear her take, as she is clearly a victim herself." For the record, here is Alix.
听到她的想法真的很有趣，因为她自己显然也是受害者。”请郑重声明，这是阿利克斯。
(HOST) ALIX SPIEGEL: Because Roxanne was the only one supporting her young daughter, she had to be able to work.
（主持人）阿利克斯·斯皮格尔：因为罗克珊是唯一支持她年幼女儿的人，所以她必须能够工作。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Elna Baker, Mary Beth Kerschner, Starlee Kine, Yowei Shaw.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：Elna Baker、Mary Beth Kerschner、Starlee Kine、Yowei Shaw。
When investigative reporter Susan Zalkind was on our show last year with the story of the FBI shooting a man connected to the Boston Marathon bombers, she sounded like this.
去年，当调查记者苏珊·扎尔金德 (Susan Zalkind) 在我们的节目中报道联邦调查局 (FBI) 枪杀一名与波士顿马拉松爆炸案有关的男子的故事时，她的语气是这样的。
(HOST) SUSAN ZALKIND: But Ibrahim also got arrested for beating a guy unconscious over a parking space at a mall in Florida.
（主持人）苏珊·扎尔金德：但易卜拉欣也因在佛罗里达州一家购物中心的停车位上殴打一名不省人事的男子而被捕。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: A woman wrote in, quote, "The growl in the woman's voice was so annoying that I turned it off." A man wrote, quote, "Listen, I know there's pressure to hire females-- in particular, young females just out of college.
（主持人）艾拉·格拉斯（IRA GLASS）：一位女士在信中写道，“这位女士声音中的咆哮声太烦人了，所以我把它关掉了。”一名男子写道，“听着，我知道雇用女性有压力，尤其是刚从大学毕业的年轻女性。
And besides, they're likely to work for less money.
此外，他们的工作薪水可能会更少。
But do you have to choose the most irritating voices in the English speaking world?
但你必须选择英语世界中最令人恼火的声音吗？
I mean, are you forced to?
我的意思是，你是被迫的吗？
Or maybe, as I imagine, NPR runs national contests looking for them."
或者，正如我想象的那样，NPR 会举办全国性的比赛来寻找他们。”
The term vocal fry started to get wide usage in 2011 after a study of 34 college students at Long Island University found that 2/3 of them had it, usually at the ends of sentences.
2011 年，长岛大学对 34 名大学生进行的一项研究发现，其中 2/3 的人有这个词，而且通常出现在句子的末尾，这个词开始得到广泛使用。
A reporter wrote a story about that study at the website of Science Magazine .
一位记者在《科学》杂志的网站上写了一篇关于这项研究的报道。
Gawker , Huffington Post , Boing Boing , and other sites linked to it.
Gawker、赫芬顿邮报、Boing Boing 以及与其链接的其他网站。
And within days, it became the most popular article ever published on the Science Magazine website and its 15 years.
几天之内，它就成为《科学》杂志网站 15 年来发表的最受欢迎的文章。
Other media glommed on.
其他媒体纷纷报道。
Something called vocal fry that is creeping into the speech patterns of young women.
一种叫做“发声”的东西正在渗透到年轻女性的言语模式中。
NBC's chief medical editor, Dr. Nancy Snyderman, is here to explain.
NBC 首席医学编辑南希·斯奈德曼博士前来解释。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: This story on The Today Show raises the possibility that talking this way harms young women's voices.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：《今日秀》的这篇报道提出了这种说话方式可能会损害年轻女性声音的可能性。
Since then, many researchers have said this doesn't seem to be true.
从那时起，许多研究人员表示这似乎并不正确。
The Today Show story also says this only affects women.
《今日秀》的报道还称，这只影响女性。
(SUBJECT) DR. NANCY SNYDERMAN: No, there isn't.
（主题）博士。南希·斯奈德曼：不，没有。
And you know whats interesting--
你知道什么是有趣的——
(HOST) IRA GLASS: There's now robust evidence that men do this, too.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：现在有强有力的证据表明男性也会这样做。
And like a lot of the other coverage, The Today Show story pathologizes vocal fry-- says that it's some kind of problem instead of just the way that some people talk.
和许多其他报道一样，《今日秀》的报道将声音问题病态化——说这是某种问题，而不仅仅是某些人说话的方式。
And it teaches viewers to spot it.
它教会观众发现它。
Today Show host Matt Lauer starts a segment saying that he's never heard of this and ends it saying he'd never noticed it before and now he's going to be on the alert for it.
《今日秀》主持人马特·劳尔在节目开始时表示，他从未听说过此事，并在节目结束时表示，他以前从未注意到这一点，现在他要对此保持警惕。
(SUBJECT) DR. NANCY SNYDERMAN: That's it.
（主题）博士。南希·斯奈德曼：就是这样。
It's that deep.
就是那么深。
(SUBJECT) NEWSCASTER: Well, that's the first time I actually heard it, in Kim Kardashian there.
（主题）新闻播音员：嗯，这是我第一次真正听到这个词，是在 Kim Kardashian 那里。
(SUBJECT) DR. NANCY SNYDERMAN: Kim Kardashian really has it.
（主题）博士。南希·斯奈德曼：金·卡戴珊确实拥有它。
I will start to listen-- Dr. Nancy Snyderman (SUBJECT) DR. NANCY SNYDERMAN: You're just not going to be hip enough to be there.
我将开始倾听——南希·斯奈德曼博士（主题） NANCY SNYDERMAN：你只是不够时髦，不能去那里。
(SUBJECT) NEWSCASTER: I'll listen more carefully.
（主题）新闻播音员：我会更仔细地听。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: The Today Show story and other stories treat vocal fry as if it's a new phenomenon-- on the rise, a fad, an epidemic.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：《今日秀》的故事和其他故事将声乐鱼苗视为一种新现象——正在兴起、一种时尚、一种流行病。
But as a linguist at the University of Pennsylvania, Mark Lieberman, has pointed out, there is still no evidence of that-- pro or con.
但正如宾夕法尼亚大学语言学家马克·利伯曼（Mark Lieberman）指出的那样，目前还没有证据表明这一点——无论是赞成还是反对。
No evidence that it is more common now than it's always been.
没有证据表明它现在比以前更常见。
What's striking in the dozens of emails about vocal fry that we've gotten here at our radio show is how vehement people are.
在我们的广播节目中收到的数十封有关发声问题的电子邮件中，最引人注目的是人们的热情。
These are some of the angriest emails we ever get.
这些是我们收到过的一些最愤怒的电子邮件。
They call these women's voices unbearable, excruciating, annoyingly adolescent, beyond annoying, difficult to pay attention.
他们称这些女性的声音令人难以忍受、难以忍受、令人恼火的青春期、令人厌烦、难以引起注意。
So severe as to cause discomfort.
严重到会引起不适。
Can't stand the pain, distractingly disgusting.
无法忍受疼痛，令人心烦意乱。
Could not get over how annoyed I was.
无法克服我有多恼火。
I am so appalled.
我很震惊。
Detracts from the credibility of the journalist.
降低了记者的可信度。
Degrades the value of the reportage.
降低了报告文学的价值。
It's a choice-- very unprofessional.
这是一个选择——非常不专业。
(HOST) STEPHANIE FOO: Lately, every time I get together with female radio producers, it's just like comparing war stories.
（主持人）Stephanie FOO：最近每次和女电台制作人聚在一起，就像比较战争故事一样。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: That's Stephanie Foo, one of the younger producers here on our show.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：这是 Stephanie Foo，我们节目中年轻的制片人之一。
(HOST) STEPHANIE FOO: It's just listing off, oh, somebody said this about me-- my voice-- this week.
（主持人）斯蒂芬妮·福：这只是列出，哦，本周有人这样评价我——我的声音。
Somebody said I sound like a stoner 13-year-old.
有人说我听起来像个 13 岁的瘾君子。
Somebody said that my voice sounds like driving on gravel.
有人说我的声音听起来像在碎石路上开车。
Somebody said they wanted to kill themselves hearing my voice.
有人说听到我的声音就想自杀。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Listeners have always complained about young women reporting on our show.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：听众总是抱怨年轻女性报道我们的节目。
They used to complain about reporters using the word like and about upspeak, which is when you put a question mark at the end of a sentence and talk like this?
他们曾经抱怨记者使用“like”和“upspeak”这个词，即你在句子末尾加一个问号并这样说话？
But we don't get many emails like that anymore.
但我们不再收到很多这样的电子邮件了。
People who don't like listening to young women on the radio have moved on to vocal fry.
那些不喜欢在广播中听年轻女性讲话的人已经转向发声。
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: I just feel like, my voice?
（主持人）CHANA JOFFE-WALT：我只是觉得，我的声音？
Really?
真的吗？
Like--
就像——
(HOST) IRA GLASS: This is producer Chana Joffe-Walt.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：我是制片人 Chana Joffe-Walt。
Remember, I read a letter from a listener who found her voice "too much to bear." Chana says that it's fine with her if somebody has a problem with her reporting or her writing or her interviewing.
请记住，我读过一位听众的来信，她发现她的声音“太难以忍受”。查纳说，如果有人对她的报道、写作或采访有疑问，她没关系。
But her voice?
但她的声音？
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: I'm just trying to speak.
（主持人） CHANA JOFFE-WALT： 我只是想发言。
Like literally, the way that the voice comes out of my mouth bothers you?
就像字面意思一样，我嘴里发出的声音让你感到困扰吗？
What am I supposed to do about that?
对此我该怎么办？
And like, even now, as we're speaking about it, I am noticing every single time I do it.
就像，即使是现在，当我们谈论它时，我每次这样做时都会注意到。
And then hating every single time I do it and trying not to do it.
然后我讨厌每次做这件事并试图不做。
But trying not to do it is impossible because it's the way that I talk.
但试图不这样做是不可能的，因为这就是我说话的方式。
Because it's my actual voice.
因为那是我真实的声音。
It's crazy-making.
真是让人抓狂啊
(HOST) IRA GLASS: It's funny.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：这很有趣。
Until we started talking about it for this story, I never even noticed it in your voice.
在我们开始谈论这个故事之前，我什至从未在你的声音中注意到这一点。
And then--
然后——
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: And now you notice it every second.
（主持人）CHANA JOFFE-WALT：现在你每一秒都会注意到这一点。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Yeah.
（主持人） IRA GLASS： 是的。
Have you noticed that I do it, too?
你注意到我也这么做了吗？
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: Not until right now.
（主持人） CHANA JOFFE-WALT： 直到现在。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Yeah.
（主持人） IRA GLASS： 是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Even as I say these words.
即使我说这些话。
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: And I didn't notice it when other women do it, either, until I started to read about the phenomenon of vocal fry.
（主持人）CHANA JOFFE-WALT：当其他女性这样做时我也没有注意到这一点，直到我开始阅读有关发声现象的文章。
And then I did notice it.
然后我确实注意到了。
And I find it annoying now when other people do it.
现在当其他人这样做时我觉得很烦人。
I mean, I don't notice it all the time, but if I am thinking about it and hear other people do it-- other women do it, especially-- I become a woman who hates women.
我的意思是，我并不是一直注意到这一点，但如果我在思考这一点并听到其他人这样做——尤其是其他女人这样做——我就会成为一个讨厌女人的女人。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Wow.
（主持人） IRA GLASS： 哇。
You're like-- it's like you've absorbed the messages of your oppressor.
你就像——就像你已经吸收了压迫者的信息。
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: I hear it in you now.
（主持人）CHANA JOFFE-WALT：我现在从你身上听到了。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Yeah.
（主持人） IRA GLASS： 是的。
I get criticized for a lot of things in the emails to the show.
我在给节目的电子邮件中因很多事情而受到批评。
No one has ever pointed this out.
从来没有人指出过这一点。
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: That's completely unsurprising.
（主持人） CHANA JOFFE-WALT： 这完全不足为奇。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Don't you think it's just sexism?
（主持人）IRA GLASS：你不认为这只是性别歧视吗？
(HOST) CHANA JOFFE-WALT: Yes.
（主持人）查娜·乔菲-沃尔特：是的。
I think it taps into some deep part of people's selves where they don't want to hear young women-- including me.
我认为它触动了人们内心深处的某些部分，他们不想听到年轻女性的声音——包括我。
Like, it taps into that in me.
就像，它触及了我的这一点。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: A few years ago, a linguist named Penny Eckert from Stanford University heard a young woman at NPR and was surprised to hear somebody speaking in such a casual style with so much vocal fry about serious news.
（主持人）艾拉·格拉斯（IRA GLASS）：几年前，斯坦福大学的一位名叫彭妮·埃克特（Penny Eckert）的语言学家在 NPR 上听到一位年轻女士的讲话，她惊讶地发现有人以如此随意的方式谈论严肃的新闻。
And she thought, well, she shouldn't be on NPR.
她想，好吧，她不应该出现在 NPR 上。
She doesn't sound authoritative.
她听起来不太权威。
(SUBJECT) PENNY ECKERT: When I played it for my students and asked them how they thought she sounded, they said she sounded great.
（主题）PENNY ECKERT：当我为我的学生演奏这首歌并询问他们觉得她听起来怎么样时，他们说她听起来很棒。
And they thought she sounded authoritative.
他们认为她听起来很有权威。
Then I knew that I was behind the curve.
然后我知道我落后了。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: So she did a little study-- a preliminary study.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：所以她做了一些研究——初步研究。
She played clips of a Marketplace reporter named Sally Herships for 584 people.
她向 584 人播放了 Marketplace 记者 Sally Herships 的片段。
And she asked them to rate how authoritative the reporter sounded.
她要求他们评价这位记者听起来有多权威。
The results-- people under 40 heard it very differently than people over 40.
结果是，40 岁以下的人听到的声音与 40 岁以上的人听到的声音非常不同。
(SUBJECT) PENNY ECKERT: The younger people found that quite authoritative and the older people did not.
（主题）PENNY ECKERT：年轻人认为这很有权威性，而老年人则没有。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: So if people are having a problem with these reporters on the radio, what it means is they're old.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：所以，如果人们对广播中的这些记者有意见，那就意味着他们老了。
(SUBJECT) PENNY ECKERT: Yeah.
（主题）潘妮·埃克特：是的。
I think old people tend to get cranky about this stuff, anyway.
无论如何，我认为老年人往往会对这些事情感到暴躁。
But-- but the media are just all over it.
但是——但是媒体都在报道这件事。
I mean, I'm constantly getting requests from media.
我的意思是，我不断收到媒体的请求。
And they want to talk about the crazy ways that young women are speaking.
他们想谈论年轻女性疯狂的说话方式。
And the first thing they do is attribute it to young women, even though young men are doing it, too.
他们做的第一件事就是将其归因于年轻女性，尽管年轻男性也在这样做。
So that's why-- it's a policing of young people, but I think, most particularly, young women.
这就是为什么——这是对年轻人的监管，但我认为，尤其是年轻女性。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: She says the same thing happened with upspeak and with the word like.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：她说同样的事情也发生在 upspeak 和“like”这个词上。
Reporters would call her about these things.
记者会打电话给她询问这些事情。
They'd point to them as a problem with young women, when young men do all that also.
他们会指出这是年轻女性的一个问题，而年轻男性也这样做。
She says people get worked up about this stuff, but it's just part of life.
她说人们会对这些事情感到愤怒，但这只是生活的一部分。
As we age, we fall out of touch with how younger people speak.
随着年龄的增长，我们越来越不了解年轻人的说话方式。
Her advice to everybody, including herself?
她对每个人的建议，包括她自己？
Get over it.
克服它。
Coming up.
即将到来。
You know what people really love on the internet?
你知道人们真正喜欢互联网上的什么吗？
Little baby animals.
小动物宝宝。
So why would they be yelling at each other about that?
那么他们为什么要为此互相大喊大叫呢？
That's in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
稍后，芝加哥公共广播电台将继续我们的节目。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme.
当然，我们每周的节目都会选择一个主题，为您带来有关该主题的不同类型的故事。
Today's show-- and are you only listening to the vocal fry in my voice right now and not the actual words that I'm saying?
今天的节目——你现在只听到我声音中的声音，而不是我所说的实际话语吗？
Today's show-- "If You Don't Have Anything Nice to Say, Say It in All Caps." This story's about internet commenters.
今天的节目——“如果你没有什么好话要说，就全部大写地说。”这个故事是关于互联网评论者的。
We've arrived at act three of our program.
我们已经进入了计划的第三幕。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Act three, "Words of Prey." So every few months, it seems there's some study that gets released saying that something like 15% of the internet is just cats-- cat videos, cat pictures.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：第三幕，“猎物之言”。因此，每隔几个月，似乎就会发布一些研究表明，互联网上大约 15% 的内容都是猫——猫视频、猫图片。
Or maybe it's 1% is cats or maybe it's some other number that really just seems crazy.
或者可能是 1% 是猫，或者可能是其他一些看起来真的很疯狂的数字。
My point is the internet loves animals.
我的观点是互联网喜欢动物。
With that in mind, here's Jonathan Menjivar with this story that we first broadcast a year ago.
考虑到这一点，乔纳森·门吉瓦尔 (Jonathan Menjivar) 讲述了我们一年前首次播出的这个故事。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: In the world of wildlife animal cams, the Woods Hole Osprey cam is a bit player.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：在野生动物摄像头领域，伍兹霍尔鱼鹰摄像头只是一个小角色。
It's certainly no Panda Cam.
这肯定不是熊猫摄像机。
All over the Earth, there are web cams trained on bison, penguins-- I just watched a jellyfish one that's useful if you want to feel stoned at your desk.
地球上到处都有针对野牛、企鹅的网络摄像头——我刚刚观看了一个水母摄像头，如果你想在办公桌前感到嗑药的话，它很有用。
But until last summer, the Osprey Cam at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution-- most people just call it WHOI-- their camera didn't get much traffic.
但直到去年夏天，伍兹霍尔海洋研究所（大多数人称之为 WHOI）的鱼鹰摄像机并没有获得太多流量。
The cam was started about a decade ago as a kind of pet project of a woman who worked at WHOI.
该摄像头大约在十年前开始，是一位在 WHOI 工作的女性的宠物项目。
She died in 2009.
她于 2009 年去世。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Her name was Sherri and she was deeply involved in the Osprey.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德（JEFFREY BRODEUR）：她的名字叫雪莉（Sherri），她深入参与了鱼鹰项目。
Loved animals.
喜欢动物。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: This is Jeffrey Brodeur.
（主持人）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔：我是杰弗里·布罗德。
He works at WHOI.
他在 WHOI 工作。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: And in fact, we named one of the osprey after her, which-- one of the worst parts was that the bird we named got hit by a car.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：事实上，我们以她的名字命名了一只鱼鹰，最糟糕的部分之一是我们命名的鸟被汽车撞了。
The bird died and then, that winter, she died.
那只鸟死了，然后，那年冬天，她也死了。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: Sherri was only 41.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：雪莉当时只有 41 岁。
After her death, Jeffrey took over responsibility for the camera.
她去世后，杰弗里接管了相机的责任。
And for three years, no bird showed up.
三年来，没有一只鸟出现。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Kind of this empty pallor hung over this nest for a while, where season after season, we didn't have anything.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德（JEFFREY BRODEUR）：这种空荡荡的苍白笼罩着这个巢穴一段时间，一季又一季，我们什么也没有。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: One year, a male and female showed up.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：有一年，出现了一男一女。
But they didn't breed.
但他们没有繁殖。
They returned a year later.
一年后他们回来了。
And on April 19, 2014, at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, the first egg arrived.
2014年4月19日下午3点，第一颗鸡蛋到了。
At least, that's according to one account on a message board.
至少，留言板上的一个帐户是这么说的。
Excitement around the nest grew on the internet.
互联网上围绕着这个巢穴的兴奋情绪不断高涨。
Then a second egg arrived, and then a third.
然后第二个鸡蛋到了，然后是第三个。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Right.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：好的。
Which is amazing.
这太棒了。
So people were really starting to kind of sit up and pay attention that the Woods Hole Osprey Nest is back.
所以人们真的开始注意到伍兹霍尔鱼鹰巢又回来了。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: Featherheads-- that's apparently what some osprey addicts call themselves.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：Featherheads——这显然是一些鱼鹰成瘾者对自己的称呼。
They started putting videos on YouTube and posting play-by-play action of everything that was happening in the nest.
他们开始在 YouTube 上发布视频，并发布巢穴中发生的一切的详细动作。
5:44 AM-- "Two minutes into fourth video and it's looking very much like a normal feeding." 5:45 AM-- "All three are clustered around and I think at least two are being fed.
凌晨 5:44——“第四个视频播放了两分钟，看起来非常像正常的喂食。”凌晨 5:45——“三个人都聚集在一起，我认为至少有两个正在吃东西。
I also think the one on the left isn't getting as much now as the one that was fed more earlier." 5:46 AM-- "Adult paused for a second and looked around."
我还认为左边的那只现在吃得没有之前吃得更多的那只多。” 5:46 AM——“大人停顿了一下，环顾四周。”
On the message boards, people started posting screenshots of things they were seeing-- when the nestlings ate, when they pooped.
在留言板上，人们开始发布他们所看到的事情的屏幕截图——雏鸟何时进食，何时排便。
So all these eyes were on the nest.
所以所有的目光都集中在巢穴上。
People were excited.
人们很兴奋。
And then--
然后——
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: It was almost immediate that people started noticing that things were not quite normal in this nest.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：人们几乎立刻就开始注意到这个巢穴里的事情不太正常。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: The mom-- she'd bring fish to the nest, but she seemed to be hoarding them, not sharing with the nestlings.
（主持人）乔纳森·曼吉瓦尔：妈妈——她会把鱼带到鸟巢，但她似乎把它们藏起来，而不是与雏鸟分享。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: And then they're starting to ask about the mother.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：然后他们开始询问母亲的情况。
And what kind of behavior is the mother displaying?
母亲表现出什么样的行为？
She seems not to be feeding as much.
她似乎没有吃那么多。
And she's kind of not interacting with the babies.
她有点不与婴儿互动。
And then it all blew up when she started attacking the young.
当她开始攻击年轻人时，一切都爆发了。
I heard from someone that she was, quote, unquote, "ripping apart the young." She was pecking-- pecking at their heads.
我从某人那里听说她是“撕裂年轻人”。她在啄——啄他们的头。
She was using her talons, kind of-- imagine almost like a helicopter.
她正在使用她的爪子，有点像——想象一下就像一架直升机。
She's hovered over these three young, who are putting their heads down, tucking their necks down to protect themselves from her as she just starts clawing away and pecking at them-- going for the eyes.
她在这三个年轻人的上方徘徊，他们低着头，低着脖子，以保护自己免受她的伤害，而她则开始抓开并啄食他们——寻找他们的眼睛。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: Now, if this happened in a forest, it's just another day for nature.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：现在，如果这件事发生在森林里，那对大自然来说只是又一天。
But it wasn't happening in a forest.
但这并不是发生在森林里。
It was happening on the internet.
这件事发生在互联网上。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: And from that point on, it was Momzilla.
（主题）JEFFREY BRODEUR：从那时起，它就是 Momzilla。
That was the name they gave her.
这是他们给她起的名字。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: I've watched the videos and they are hard to take.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：我看过这些视频，很难接受。
It's not a lion taking down a gazelle because he's hungry.
狮子并不是因为饿了才打倒羚羊。
This is a mother attacking her kids, seemingly for no reason.
这是一位母亲似乎毫无理由地攻击她的孩子。
And not just attacking them-- starving them.
不仅攻击他们，还让他们挨饿。
When the dad brings fish to the nest, the mother often eats most of the fish before she offers the nestlings anything.
当爸爸把鱼带到鸟巢时，妈妈通常会先吃掉大部分鱼，然后再给雏鸟提供任何东西。
By the end of the summer, a message board devoted to the cam that had been quiet for years suddenly had hundreds of pages of posts.
到了夏末，一个沉寂多年的关于摄像头的留言板突然出现了数百页的帖子。
There are at least 40 osprey cams around the US.
美国各地至少有 40 个鱼鹰摄像机。
And now, Jeffrey was sitting on the Real Housewives of osprey cams.
现在，杰弗里正坐在鱼鹰摄像机的“真正的主妇”上。
Woods Hole had the train wreck that everyone wanted to watch.
伍兹霍尔发生了每个人都想观看的火车失事事件。
People on the message boards clearly knew a ton about osprey, but they couldn't help themselves from attaching human motives to the mother's actions.
留言板上的人们显然对鱼鹰了解很多，但他们情不自禁地将人类的动机与母亲的行为联系在一起。
One person wrote, "Note how she looks at them at times, almost like daring them to move."
一个人写道：“请注意她有时如何看着他们，几乎就像是在鼓励他们移动。”
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: So here's one from a little bit later in July.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德（JEFFREY BRODEUR）：这是 7 月晚些时候的一个。
"Please.
“拜托。
I just watched a YouTube video that's shown this mom osprey attacking all her babies, one very viciously.
我刚刚看了一段 YouTube 视频，视频中这只鱼鹰妈妈攻击了她所有的孩子，其中一个非常恶毒。
This is not normal.
这是不正常的。
I have seen normal osprey moms to be loving and worried for their babies.
我见过正常的鱼鹰妈妈对她们的孩子充满爱心和担心。
Please remove these babies now.
请立即移走这些婴儿。
Give them a chance to know that this is not normal.
让他们有机会知道这是不正常的。
Please get these babies off this nest.
请把这些婴儿带离这个巢穴。
Please."
请。”
(INTERVIEWER) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: That's a lot of pleases in there.
（采访者） JONATHAN MENJIVAR： 这里面有很多令人高兴的事情。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: And I got-- yeah.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：我得到了——是的。
And I got a lot similar to that.
我得到了很多类似的东西。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: A poster on July 10 wrote, "I wish someone would listen to me already.
（主持人）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔（JONATHAN MENJIVAR）：7 月 10 日的一张海报写道：“我希望有人能听我的。
I think this is not their parent.
我认为这不是他们的父母。
That is why she is attacking them and there has been no food delivery.
这就是为什么她攻击他们，却没有送食物。
The same thing happened with a bald eagle nest in Shepherdtown, Virginia." They mean Shepherdstown, West Virginia.
同样的事情也发生在弗吉尼亚州谢泼德敦的一个秃鹰巢穴上。”他们指的是西弗吉尼亚州的谢泼兹敦。
"The intruder does not want them.
“入侵者不想要它们。
So someone needs to contact Cape Cod Wildlife and give them a heads up or you may have three chicks that perish.
因此，需要有人联系科德角野生动物并提醒他们，否则可能会有三只小鸡死亡。
If you guys won't, I will."
如果你们不肯，我就肯。”
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: And that became the question that everyone was asking-- are you going to somehow remove these birds from their nest?
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：这成为每个人都在问的问题——你会以某种方式将这些鸟从巢中移走吗？
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: Jeffrey is not an osprey expert.
（主持人）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔（JONATHAN MENJIVAR）：杰弗里不是鱼鹰专家。
He does outreach for WHOI.
他为 WHOI 做外展工作。
And at WHOI, they study ocean life, not birds.
在 WHOI，他们研究海洋生物，而不是鸟类。
So Jeffrey consulted osprey experts around the country and they all told him two things.
于是杰弗里咨询了全国各地的鱼鹰专家，他们都告诉了他两件事。
One, they'd never seen an osprey behave this way before.
第一，他们以前从未见过鱼鹰有这样的行为。
And two, the experts agreed that Jeffrey and WHOI should not intervene.
第二，专家们一致认为 Jeffrey 和 WHOI 不应干预。
Don't give the nestlings food.
不要给雏鸟食物。
Don't remove them.
不要删除它们。
WHOI didn't have any place to put them, anyhow, and ospreys do terribly in captivity.
无论如何，我没有任何地方可以安置它们，而且鱼鹰在圈养中的表现非常糟糕。
Jeffrey let the message boards know all this.
杰弗里让留言板知道了这一切。
But some featherheads still called for WHOI to intervene.
但一些头脑简单的人仍然呼吁 WHOI 进行干预。
Especially once the nestlings got hungry enough that they started attacking each other, fighting over food.
尤其是当雏鸟饿得够呛时，它们就会开始互相攻击，争夺食物。
People wanted answers and they started theorizing.
人们想要答案并开始理论化。
There had been big storms in the area that could have made it hard to find fish.
该地区曾发生过大风暴，可能很难找到鱼。
Maybe three nestlings was just too much for the mom to handle and she was stressed out.
也许三只雏鸟对于妈妈来说实在是太多了，她压力很大。
Maybe it was the dad.
也许是父亲。
Maybe he was stepping out on Momzilla and working another nest on the side.
也许他正在走出莫兹拉并在旁边筑巢。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Well, the funny thing was that when I took some of the theories to the osprey experts, they were like, well, that's a possibility.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：有趣的是，当我向鱼鹰专家提出一些理论时，他们说，嗯，这是有可能的。
Throw it in the mix because it certainly can't be ruled out.
把它放在一起，因为它肯定不能被排除。
And it was everything from bad DNA to toxicology.
从不良 DNA 到毒理学，无所不包。
Had she maybe, somehow, ingested toxins somewhere along the way?
她是否可能在途中不知何故摄入了毒素？
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: Now, imagine being Jeffrey.
（主持人）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔：现在，想象一下杰弗里。
You're a communications guy at this place that doesn't even specialize in birds.
你是这个地方的通讯人员，甚至不专门研究鸟类。
Then your co-worker dies and you take over this bird cam that was dear to her.
然后你的同事去世了，你接管了她珍视的这个鸟类摄像头。
And before you know it, people from all over the world are mad at you and demanding action.
在您意识到之前，来自世界各地的人们都对您感到愤怒并要求采取行动。
Jeffrey-- he's a nice guy, diplomatic.
杰弗里——他是一个好人，善于交际。
The most I could get out of him was that he was frustrated over all this.
我从他那里得到的最多的信息就是他对这一切感到沮丧。
But at the time, Jeffrey phoned one of the webcam viewers, who then posted this on the message board.
但当时，杰弗里给一名网络摄像头观众打电话，后者随后将这一消息发布在留言板上。
Quote, "Jeff Brodeur just called me.
引用：“杰夫·布罗德刚刚给我打电话。
Called, not emailed.
打电话，而不是发电子邮件。
He is furious.
他很愤怒。
He's been getting tons of nasty threatening emails from cam viewers demanding the chicks or female be removed from the nest.
他收到了大量来自视频观众的恶意威胁电子邮件，要求将雏鸟或雌鸟从巢中移走。
Someone sent out an email to the entire staff saying they are inhumane.
有人给全体员工发了一封电子邮件，说他们不人道。
Jeff is going to shut the cam off if the emails don't stop."
如果电子邮件不停止，杰夫就会关闭摄像头。”
Jeffrey didn't shut the cam off, but he posted a warning to viewers that they might see behavior they'd find upsetting.
杰弗里没有关闭摄像头，但他向观众发出警告，称他们可能会看到令人不安的行为。
If they don't like it, he thought, they could just stop watching.
他想，如果他们不喜欢，就可以停止观看。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: I mean, not only did people not stop watching it when things got rough, they kind of encouraged others to start watching.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：我的意思是，当事情变得艰难时，人们不仅没有停止观看它，而且还鼓励其他人开始观看。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: And then things really blew up when one of the nestlings got its talon caught on a balloon string that was in the nest.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：当其中一只雏鸟的爪子被巢中的气球绳缠住时，事情真的爆炸了。
Now the nestling was even more vulnerable to the mother's attacks.
现在，雏鸟更容易受到母亲的攻击。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Every single email I got-- I tried for a while to answer back personally and respond.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德（JEFFREY BRODEUR）：我收到的每一封电子邮件——我都尝试了一段时间亲自回复并回复。
But then, it just got so overwhelming that I couldn't even really begin to.
但后来，它变得如此势不可挡，以至于我什至无法真正开始。
And it even went over to my vacation in late July.
甚至还延续到了我七月底的假期。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: Jeffrey was with his whole family on Martha's Vineyard and his phone rang.
（主持人）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔：杰弗里和他的全家在玛莎葡萄园岛，他的电话响了。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: And I stepped outside on the front lawn.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：然后我走到了前面的草坪上。
The person on the other end-- they told me I was evil because I hadn't done anything.
另一端的人——他们告诉我我是邪恶的，因为我什么也没做。
And you know, I slipped for-- I had a momentary lapse of reason in which I said to this person-- I said, ma'am, I'm on vacation with my family.
你知道，我失手是因为——我暂时失去了理智，我对这个人说——我说，女士，我正在和家人一起度假。
And there was this pause.
然后停顿了一下。
And that's pretty much when she just laid into me.
这几乎就是她刚刚向我躺下的时候。
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: The woman told him, osprey in need don't get vacations.
（主持人）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔（JONATHAN MENJIVAR）：那个女人告诉他，需要帮助的鱼鹰没有假期。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Finally, someone wrote me an email that just-- that was the last straw.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：最后，有人给我写了一封电子邮件，那是最后一根稻草。
(INTERVIEWER) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: So this happens at the end of July.
（采访者）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔（JONATHAN MENJIVAR）：所以这发生在七月底。
And can you just read that email for me?
你能帮我读一下那封电子邮件吗？
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Sure.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：当然。
"I am witnessing an ongoing attack by the female osprey.
“我目睹了雌鱼鹰的持续攻击。
It is intensely disturbing.
这是非常令人不安的。
The proper authorities need to take immediate action.
有关当局需要立即采取行动。
I believe this female osprey has a serious problem and should be humanely and permanently removed from the gene pool."
我相信这只雌性鱼鹰有一个严重的问题，应该被人道地从基因库中永久删除。”
And so I got that email and I remember taking a minute to digest that.
所以我收到了那封电子邮件，我记得我花了一分钟来消化它。
I just couldn't believe that what I thought someone was asking me in that email-- telling me to basically go up and wring its little osprey neck.
我简直不敢相信，我以为有人在那封电子邮件中问我——告诉我基本上要上去扭断它的小鱼鹰脖子。
You know, euthanize the bird.
你知道，对这只鸟实施安乐死。
(INTERVIEWER) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: So later that same day, you post something.
（采访者）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔（JONATHAN MENJIVAR）：所以当天晚些时候，你发布了一些东西。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: Yeah.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：是的。
So that afternoon, I posted what I called Final Word on Intervention.
所以那天下午，我发布了所谓的“关于干预的最终决定”。
(INTERVIEWER) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: And then, if you could just read a little bit of this for me.
（采访者）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔（JONATHAN MENJIVAR）：然后，请您帮我读一下其中的一些内容。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: "Where do I even begin?
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：“我从哪里开始呢？
I guess with the obvious.
我想这是显而易见的。
We're not going to do any osprey executions anytime soon.
我们不会很快执行任何鱼鹰处决。
This person said it was intensely disturbing to watch the attacks and I couldn't agree more.
这个人说观看这些袭击事件令人非常不安，我完全同意。
Try having it happen right outside your window with sound.
尝试让它在窗外发生并发出声音。
Even if the windows are closed, it can reach disturbing decibels.
即使窗户关闭，噪音也可能达到令人不安的分贝。
They're at it right now, in fact.
事实上，他们现在就在这么做。
I literally turn to my left and see the nest, and I count that as a blessing, not a curse.
我确实向左转，看到了鸟巢，我认为这是一种祝福，而不是诅咒。
But I get it, really.
但我真的明白了。
I also understand that you get attached the birds.
我也理解你对鸟的喜爱。
Want to get attached to them?"
想和他们结缘吗？”
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: Jeffrey wrote that he was attached to them, too.
（主持人）乔纳森·门吉瓦尔：杰弗里写道，他也很喜欢他们。
Partly because he misses the woman who helped start the cam and who ran it until she died at 41.
部分原因是他怀念那位帮助启动摄像头并一直运营该摄像头直到她 41 岁去世的女士。
Every time he sees the birds, he wrote, he thinks of her.
他写道，每次看到鸟儿，他都会想起她。
(SUBJECT) JEFFREY BRODEUR: "I know she would be upset at what's going on.
（主题）杰弗里·布罗德：“我知道她会对发生的事情感到不安。
And trust me, no one misses her more during this deluge of emails, calls, tweets, et cetera, than me.
相信我，在这海量的电子邮件、电话、推文等等中，没有人比我更想念她。
But she certainly wouldn't even consider what was suggested and neither will we.
但她肯定不会考虑我们的建议，我们也不会。
I take great solace in the wisdom of others involved in the world of Osprey Cam.
我对参与 Osprey Cam 世界的其他人的智慧感到非常安慰。
And I'm happy to count the good folks at Montana Osprey Project in Missoula among those.
我很高兴将米苏拉蒙大拿州鱼鹰项目的优秀人员列入其中。
Here, in part, is what they've posted about their cam.
以下是他们发布的有关其摄像头的部分内容。
"Ospreys are wild birds.
“鱼鹰是野生鸟类。
They are not pets and this is not a Disney movie.
它们不是宠物，这也不是迪士尼电影。
What comes with this is the good and, sometimes, the sad.
随之而来的是好事，有时也是悲伤的。
To put things in perspective, it is estimated that about 50% to 60% of all osprey chicks do not survive their first year of life."
客观来看，据估计，大约 50% 到 60% 的鱼鹰雏鸟无法活过第一年。”
We will strive to keep you informed.
我们将努力让您随时了解情况。
We will strive to keep things on the nest positive.
我们将努力让事情保持积极的态度。
What we won't do is take nature into our own hands because some people find it tough to watch."
我们不会把自然掌握在自己手中，因为有些人觉得很难观看。”
(HOST) JONATHAN MENJIVAR: That sort of worked.
（主持人）JONATHAN MENJIVAR：这确实有效。
Most of the featherheads stopped their chirping.
大多数羽头鸟停止了鸣叫。
The mother kept attacking the nestlings and they continued to attack each other.
母亲不断地攻击雏鸟，雏鸟们也不断地互相攻击。
By the end of the summer, all three learned to fly and left the nest.
夏末，三个人都学会了飞行并离开了巢穴。
One was found dead underneath a nearby tree.
其中一人被发现死在附近的一棵树下。
He was malnourished.
他营养不良。
An osprey expert told me, nature is not cruel.
一位鱼鹰专家告诉我，大自然并不残酷。
That implies intent.
这意味着意图。
It is harsh, unforgiving, and often random.
它是残酷的、无情的，而且常常是随机的。
Most of the Osprey Cam viewers knew all that.
大多数鱼鹰摄像机观众都知道这一切。
But still, it's hard not to view animals-- any animals-- through a human lens.
但仍然很难不通过人类的视角来观察动物——任何动物。
As one person posted, "Well, I'm one to humanize.
正如一位网友所言：“嗯，我是一个注重人性化的人。
I admit it.
我承认。
I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
我不认为这有什么问题。
I have human sympathies for the little one-- fledgling number three-- and I don't mind sharing that.
我对这个小家伙——刚刚起步的三号——怀有人类的同情心，我不介意分享这一点。
Some have expressed their feelings about mom's attacks.
有些人表达了他们对妈妈的攻击的感受。
We are humans, after all.
毕竟我们是人类。
I've seen fledgling two go after fledgling three many times and would like to reach in and slap him upside the head.
我曾多次看到两只雏鸟追赶三只雏鸟，真想伸手去打他的头。
That is me humanizing the situation as it happens.
我就是在这种情况发生时将其人性化。
Obviously, I can't do that, but I sure feel it.
显然，我做不到，但我确实感觉到了。
Yes, my posts have lots of humanizing.
是的，我的帖子有很多人性化的内容。
I'm human.
我是人类。
I'm not afraid to show it."
我不怕表现出来。”
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Jonathan Menjivar.
（主持人）艾拉·格拉斯（IRA GLASS）：乔纳森·门吉瓦尔（Jonathan Menjivar）。
He's one of the producers of our program.
他是我们节目的制作人之一。
Well, this hour we've been hearing stories of people getting insulted and harassed in various ways on the internet.
好吧，这个小时我们听到了人们在互联网上遭受各种形式的侮辱和骚扰的故事。
But can internet hate ever be helpful to a person?
但网络仇恨对一个人有帮助吗？
There's a new podcast called "Reply All." It spends a lot of time living among the haters and the liars and the dirty, dirty cheats of the world on the internet.
有一个名为“全部回复”的新播客。它花了很多时间生活在互联网世界的仇恨者、骗子和肮脏的骗子中间。
And one of the hosts of the podcast "Reply All," PJ Vogt, has this story.
播客“全部回复”的主持人之一 PJ Vogt 讲述了这个故事。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Ignore whatever good things seem to be going on in your life.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：忽略生活中似乎正在发生的任何美好事物。
You're lousy, you're an imposter, and everybody in your life knows it.
你很糟糕，你是个骗子，你生活中的每个人都知道这一点。
(SUBJECT) PAUL: I mean, it's the same little voice all the time.
（主题）保罗：我的意思是，一直都是同一个小声音。
This little guy just sitting there, going like, god, you're trash, you're garbage, you're garbage, you're garbage.
这个小家伙就坐在那里，说，上帝，你是垃圾，你是垃圾，你是垃圾，你是垃圾。
I don't know why he sounds like a Brooklyn construction worker, but he does right now, today.
我不知道为什么他听起来像布鲁克林的建筑工人，但他现在就是这样。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: That voice told Paul that his life, which looked-- from the outside-- pretty normal, was teetering on the edge of a huge disaster.
（主持人）PJ 沃格特：那个声音告诉保罗，他的生活——从外表上看——很正常，却在一场巨大灾难的边缘摇摇欲坠。
(SUBJECT) PAUL: I actually had two little children screaming at home and they were making me worried.
（主题）保罗：实际上，我有两个小孩在家里尖叫，他们让我很担心。
And in just all the regular ways that kids make you worried.
孩子们以所有常见的方式让你担心。
And I was not finishing a bunch of projects.
而且我还没有完成一堆项目。
I was feeling really at loose ends.
我真的感觉无所事事。
And I was stressed and I was anxious and overweight and terrified.
我压力很大，我很焦虑，体重超重，而且很害怕。
And I was just like, holy shit, I got to do better.
我当时想，天哪，我必须做得更好。
And then the anxiety would be like, oh, hey, wow.
然后焦虑就会像，哦，嘿，哇。
I'm dying.
我要死了。
No, wait.
不，等等。
I'm covered with worms.
我身上长满了虫子。
No, I'm never going to get anything done.
不，我永远不会完成任何事情。
I'm a bad person.
我是一个坏人。
I'm a failure.
我是个失败者。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Paul programmed software and so he decided what he needed to do about his anxiety was to treat it like an IT problem that needed troubleshooting.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：保罗负责编写软件，因此他决定应对焦虑的方法是将其视为需要排除故障的 IT 问题。
For me, it was just like, what is this weird force that is now running a chunk of my life and making me feel weird and bad all the time?
对我来说，就像是，这种奇怪的力量现在占据了我生活的很大一部分，让我一直感到奇怪和糟糕，这是什么力量？
And so I went off and I made this thing called Anxiety Box.
所以我就开始制作这个东西，叫做“焦虑盒”。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Anxiety Box.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：焦虑盒。
It's a website.
这是一个网站。
Paul's technological solution to the self-doubting criticism swirling around in his head.
保罗用技术解决了他脑海中盘旋的自我怀疑的批评。
So the way it works-- if we look at the website.
那么它的运作方式——如果我们看一下网站。
You go to the website and you put in your name and your email.
您访问该网站并输入您的姓名和电子邮件。
And then you put in what your anxiety is.
然后你输入你的焦虑是什么。
So it's like, I'm really anxious about finishing my book.
所以就像是，我真的很渴望完成我的书。
I'm really anxious about losing weight.
我真的很着急减肥。
And you can keep adding anxieties.
而且你可能会不断增加焦虑。
And it saves all of that to a database.
它将所有这些保存到数据库中。
And then, like 12 times a day-- but kind of random-- it just sends you these emails from your anxiety.
然后，大约一天 12 次——但有点随机——它只是因为你的焦虑而向你发送这些电子邮件。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Not emails soothing you about your anxiety.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：电子邮件无法缓解您的焦虑。
Emails that are actually sent from a personified version of your anxiety that lived on a website.
这些电子邮件实际上是从网站上的您的焦虑的拟人版本发送的。
Paul coded in all these tiny sentence fragments that the website could use to automatically construct emails.
保罗对所有这些微小的句子片段进行了编码，网站可以使用它们自动构建电子邮件。
All these various kind of pseudo parts of speech like, the upshot is, tell me, drop a line, keep me in the loop.
所有这些各种各样的伪词性，就像，结果是，告诉我，留一条线，让我了解情况。
I don't want to doubt you, but, or I doubt it can ever work.
我不想怀疑你，但是，或者我怀疑这是否可行。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Those sound fragments were meant to give his robot the perfect voice-- the voice of a ruthlessly cheerful underminer.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：这些声音片段旨在为他的机器人提供完美的声音——一个无情而快乐的破坏者的声音。
An underminer who knew his specific anxieties-- the work deadlines he was blowing, the weight he couldn't seem to lose-- and could taunt him about them.
一个破坏者知道他具体的焦虑——他错过了工作期限，他似乎无法减掉的体重——并且可以嘲笑他。
So let's imagine that I'm standing on the train.
让我们想象一下我站在火车上。
I'm about to go down into the train platform.
我正要下到火车站台。
And like, I look at my phone and I have an email and it's from my anxiety.
就像，我看着手机，收到一封电子邮件，这是因为我的焦虑。
I mean, here's an email from June 2, in the afternoon.
我的意思是，这是 6 月 2 日下午发来的一封电子邮件。
Here's the subject.
这是主题。
"History will forget you because history forgets people who are unable to finish anything.
“历史会忘记你，因为历史会忘记那些无法完成任何事情的人。
Dear Paul, So you're probably used to being at the front of the class and this is a wake-up call that you're not even in the middle.
亲爱的保罗，所以你可能已经习惯了在班级的前面，这是一个警钟，你甚至不在中间。
Inform me, are you ready?
通知我，你准备好了吗？
Sincerely, your anxiety."
诚挚的，你的焦虑。”
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Remember, Paul set it up so that he'd get these messages, on average, 12 times a day.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：记住，Paul 的设置是为了让他平均每天收到 12 次这些消息。
12 times a day, his phone would ping and there'd be a new attack waiting.
一天 12 次，他的手机会发出 ping 声，新的攻击正在等待。
While he was eating breakfast-- ping.
当他正在吃早餐的时候——ping。
"The simple reason you're not happy is that you're unworthy of saving."
“你不快乐的简单原因是你不值得储蓄。”
(HOST) PJ VOGT: When he was at work, ping.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：当他工作时，ping。
(SUBJECT) PAUL: "I respect that you just live your life and don't care if people think you are childish and disgusting."
（主题）保罗：“我尊重你只是过你的生活，不在乎人们是否认为你幼稚和恶心。”
(HOST) PJ VOGT: While he was watching his kids, ping.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：当他看着他的孩子时，ping。
"Your mom and dad would never say anything, but they so want to know why you choose to be unlovable and not smart."
“你的妈妈和爸爸永远不会说什么，但他们很想知道为什么你选择不可爱和不聪明。”
(HOST) PJ VOGT: When he was getting ready for bed, ping.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：当他准备睡觉时，ping。
"People on Facebook look at your picture and think, in possession of a weird nose."
“Facebook 上的人们看到你的照片就会想，你的鼻子很奇怪。”
(INTERVIEWER) PJ VOGT: And you made this to make yourself feel less anxious and better.
（采访者）PJ VOGT：你这样做是为了让自己感觉不那么焦虑，感觉更好。
Well, that's the thing.
嗯，就是这样。
The thing I'm trying to do here is externalize the anxiety and actually simulate it.
我在这里想做的就是将焦虑外化并实际模拟它。
(INTERVIEWER) PJ VOGT: So what do you mean?
（采访者） PJ VOGT：那么你的意思是什么？
Well, anxiety-- it turns out, like, building this little emulator-- this anxiety simulator-- made me go, oh, this part of me is incredibly stupid.
好吧，焦虑——事实证明，就像构建这个小模拟器——这个焦虑模拟器——让我变得，哦，我的这一部分非常愚蠢。
It says the same things over and over again.
它一遍又一遍地说着同样的话。
And it really is-- like, that is what my anxiety looks like.
确实如此——这就是我的焦虑。
It's not smart.
这并不聪明。
At some level, it's like a little robot that just screams.
在某种程度上，它就像一个只会尖叫的小机器人。
What this let me do is look at the robot.
这让我做的就是观察机器人。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Seeing the voice in his head-- seeing its opinion of him actually written out-- it seemed crazy that he'd ever believed that what it was saying about him was true.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：看到他脑海中的声音——看到它对他的看法实际上被写出来——他曾经相信它对他的评价是真实的，这似乎很疯狂。
It was immediately effective.
立刻就见效了。
And seeing it actually externalized as like 20 messages in a Gmail inbox-- it was so much like what my brain was producing.
看到它实际上具体化为 Gmail 收件箱中的 20 条消息——这与我的大脑产生的结果非常相似。
Seeing it was really funny.
看到真的觉得好笑。
It turns your entire emotional freakout into this relentless form of comedy.
它将你整个情感上的疯狂变成了这种无情的喜剧形式。
(INTERVIEWER) PJ VOGT: Right.
（采访者） PJ VOGT： 是的。
Paul Yeah.
保罗 是的。
It just-- it turns out that you're not as important as you think you are, nowhere near as terrible as you think you are, and actually fairly ridiculous.
只是——事实证明，你并不像你想象的那么重要，远没有你想象的那么可怕，而且实际上相当荒谬。
Like, it's just so ridiculous to scream at yourself all day long.
就像，整天对自己尖叫真是太可笑了。
And yet, there it was.
然而，它就在那里。
There was evidence of it.
有证据表明这一点。
And so it was like, oh, my god, I've been wasting a lot of time with this little son of a bitch.
就好像，哦，天哪，我在这个小王八蛋身上浪费了很多时间。
(INTERVIEWER) PJ VOGT: I feel like something about having it in email lets you fight back against it.
（采访者）PJ VOGT：我觉得在电子邮件中包含它可以让你反击它。
You can actually reply, right?
其实你可以回复的，对吧？
Like, I would reply and be like, go fuck yourself, over and over again.
就像，我会回答说，去你妈的吧，一遍又一遍。
So the ability to actually yell back at something, which I think is something that we usually associate with being terrible on the internet-- in this case, it's wonderful.
因此，能够真正对某事大喊大叫，我认为这通常与我们在互联网上的可怕行为联系在一起——在这种情况下，它非常棒。
Because you can yell at the robot and tell him it shut the fuck up.
因为你可以对机器人大喊大叫并告诉他他妈的闭嘴。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: The notion that you can cure your anxiety without therapy, without drugs, just by trolling yourself.
（主持人）PJ VOGT：这种观念认为，无需治疗、无需药物，只需通过自我折磨就可以治愈焦虑。
Who'd have thought?
谁会想到呢？
I think it doesn't necessarily get solved, you just get more aware of it.
我认为这个问题并不一定能得到解决，只是你更加了解它而已。
It's still there.
它还在那里。
It's still moving.
它还在动。
It's still part of me.
它仍然是我的一部分。
I'm sure it'll be there till I die.
我确信它会一直在那里直到我死。
But it doesn't have as much control.
但它没有那么多的控制权。
(HOST) PJ VOGT: Paul found that when he took the nasty voices inside his head and gave them a home outside of it-- a home on the internet, where tens of millions of other nasty voices live, they couldn't hurt him any more.
（主持人）PJ 沃格特：保罗发现，当他将那些令人讨厌的声音带入脑海并给它们一个外部的家时——互联网上的一个家，那里生活着数以千万计的其他令人讨厌的声音，他们就无法再伤害他了。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: PJ Vogt is one of the hosts of "Reply All." They find such great stories.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：PJ Vogt 是《全部回复》的主持人之一。他们发现了如此精彩的故事。
If you have not heard them yet, you might start with an episode called, "Shine On, You Crazy Goldman," which goes to a very surprising place.
如果你还没有听过它们，你可以从一个名为“闪耀，你疯狂的高盛”的插曲开始，它到达了一个非常令人惊讶的地方。
"Reply All."
“全部回复。”
(HOST) IRA GLASS: Well, our program was produced today by Stephanie Foo and myself, with Sean Cole, Chana Jaffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
（主持人）IRA GLASS：嗯，我们今天的节目是由 Stephanie Foo 和我自己制作的，还有 Sean Cole、Chana Jaffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike。
Our senior producer for today's show is Julie Snyder.
我们今天节目的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
Editing help from Joel Lovell and Joe Richman.
乔尔·洛弗尔 (Joel Lovell) 和乔·里奇曼 (Joe Richman) 提供编辑帮助。
Our technical director is Matt Tierney.
我们的技术总监是马特·蒂尔尼。
Production help from Lilly Sullivan and Michael Garofalo.
莉莉·沙利文 (Lilly Sullivan) 和迈克尔·加罗法洛 (Michael Garofalo) 为制作提供帮助。
Seth Lind is our director of operations.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson is our business operations manager.
Elise Bergerson 是我们的业务运营经理。
Elna Baker scouts stories for the show.
艾尔娜·贝克为节目寻找故事。
Kimberly Henderson is our office coordinator.
Kimberly Henderson 是我们的办公室协调员。
Research help from Michelle Harris and Christopher Switala.
米歇尔·哈里斯和克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉的研究帮助。
Music help from Damian Graef from Rob Geddis.
达米安·格雷夫 (Damian Graef) 和罗布·格迪斯 (Rob Geddis) 提供音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
His latest hobby?
他最近的爱好是？
Teaching hot yoga in hell.
在地狱教授热瑜伽。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It just feels good to kind of exorcise these demons.
驱除这些恶魔的感觉真好。
(HOST) IRA GLASS: I'm Ira Glass.
（主持人） IRA GLASS： 我是 Ira Glass。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。