544: Batman - This American Life
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00:00 00:00 Transcript Share This American Life Life Partners How to Listen Episodes Recommended About Overview Staff Announcements Fellowships Jobs Music Make Radio On The Road FAQ Submissions Merch Contact Us Our Other Shows Merch Follow Us Life Partners Subscribe to our newsletter Full episode Toggle Audio and Transcript Sync Transcript | Episode #544 | January 9, 2015 544: Batman Note: This American Life is produced for the ear and designed to be heard.
00:00 00:00 文字记录 分享此 美国生活 生活伙伴 如何收听 剧集 推荐 关于 概述 员工公告 奖学金 工作 音乐 在路上制作电台 常见问题解答 提交 商品 联系我们 我们的其他节目 商品 关注我们 生活伙伴 订阅我们的时事通讯 整集 切换音频和文字记录同步 文字记录 | 内容第 544 集 | 2015 年 1 月 9 日 544：蝙蝠侠 注：《美国生活》是为耳朵而制作的，旨在让人们听到。
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如果可以的话，我们强烈建议您收听音频，其中包括页面上没有的情感和重点。
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors.
文字记录是使用语音识别软件和人工转录员结合生成的，可能包含错误。
Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.
请在印刷版引用前检查相应的音频。
Prologue Ira Glass So today we have a story that we think might make you believe something that right now you do not believe.
序言 Ira Glass 所以今天我们有一个故事，我们认为它可能会让你相信一些你现在不相信的事情。
And to tell that story, I'm joined here in the studio by NPR science reporters Alix Spiegel and Lulu Miller.
为了讲述这个故事，NPR 科学记者阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel) 和露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller) 加入了我的演播室。
Hey there, guys.
嘿，伙计们。
And do I have this right?
我有这个权利吗？
So you bought a rat, and you brought it to NPR headquarters in Washington, DC?
所以你买了一只老鼠，然后把它带到华盛顿特区的 NPR 总部？
We did.
我们做到了。
Lulu Miller Alix bought the rat.
露露·米勒阿利克斯买下了这只老鼠。
I did.
我做到了。
Ira Glass And where at NPR did you bring the rat to?
Ira Glass 你把老鼠带到 NPR 的哪里了？
We ferreted it into a little kind of edit booth type thing--
我们把它变成了一种编辑室类型的东西——
--type office.
--办公室类型。
And we invited people into the room one by one.
我们一一请人进屋。
So can you just describe what we got here?
那么你能描述一下我们在这里得到了什么吗？
It's a rat.
这是一只老鼠。
Female Speaker 1 Pinkish ears.
女说话者 1 粉红色的耳朵。
And sat them down in front of this rat and asked this question.
然后让他们坐在这只老鼠面前并问这个问题。
Do you think that the thoughts that you have in your head-- OK, the private thoughts that you have in your head-- could influence how that rat moves through space?
你认为你脑子里的想法——好吧，你脑子里的私人想法——会影响老鼠在太空中的移动方式吗？
And it was almost unanimous.
这几乎是一致的。
People did not believe that their personal thoughts would have any effect on the rat at all.
人们根本不相信他们的个人想法会对老鼠产生任何影响。
Because that would suggest some sort of telepathy which I don't have.
因为这暗示着某种我没有的心灵感应。
And Ira, maybe that's what you think too.
艾拉，也许你也是这么想的。
That is what I think.
我就是这么想的。
I don't think that people thinking thoughts will affect a rat's behavior.
我不认为人们的想法会影响老鼠的行为。
(CHUCKLING) Yes.
（笑）是的。
Ira Glass OK, so who's this?
Ira Glass 好的，那这是谁？
This is a man named Bob Rosenthal.
这是一个名叫鲍勃·罗森塔尔的人。
He's a research psychologist.
他是一位研究心理学家。
And early in his career, he did this thing.
在他职业生涯的早期，他就做了这件事。
He went into his lab late at night and hung signs on all of the rat cages.
他深夜走进实验室，在所有的老鼠笼子上都挂上了标志。
And some of the signs said that the rat in the cage was incredibly smart.
有些标志表明，笼子里的老鼠非常聪明。
And some of the signs said that the rat in the cage was incredibly dumb, even though neither of those things was true.
有些迹象表明笼子里的老鼠非常愚蠢，尽管这些都不是真的。
They were very average rats that you would buy from a research institute that sells rats for a living.
它们是非常普通的老鼠，你可以从一家以贩卖老鼠为生的研究所购买。
So then Bob brings this group of experimenters into his lab, and he says, for the next week, some of you are going to get these incredibly smart rats.
然后鲍勃将这组实验者带入他的实验室，他说，下周，你们中的一些人将得到这些非常聪明的老鼠。
And some of you are going to get these incredibly stupid rats.
你们中的一些人将会遇到这些极其愚蠢的老鼠。
And your job is to run your rat through a maze and record how well it does.
你的工作就是让你的老鼠穿过迷宫并记录它的表现。
Can you just pick up the rat?
你能把老鼠捡起来吗？
Alix Spiegel So, Ira, we actually did a very lo-fi, unscientific version of this in that little room in NPR.
Alix Spiegel 所以，Ira，我们实际上在 NPR 的那个小房间里做了一个非常低保真的、不科学的版本。
They let you do that?
他们让你这么做？
Alix Spiegel We didn't ask permission.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 我们没有征求许可。
Yeah.
是的。
Lulu Miller And you've probably already guessed where this is going.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller） 您可能已经猜到事情的发展方向了。
Yeah.
是的。
In Bob's real study, the experimenters ran the rats that they had been told were smart.
在鲍勃的真实研究中，实验者对那些被告知很聪明的老鼠进行了实验。
She has sort of an intelligent looking face.
她有一张看起来很聪明的脸。
And the rats they had been told were dumb.
他们被告知老鼠是愚蠢的。
Yeah, he seems kind of lazy.
是的，他看起来有点懒。
Alix Spiegel It was not even close.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel) 还差得很远。
The results were so dramatic.
结果是如此戏剧性。
Alix Spiegel In Bob's real study, the smart rats did almost twice as well as the dumb rats.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel) 在鲍勃的真实研究中，聪明老鼠的表现几乎是愚蠢老鼠的两倍。
Yeah, even though the smart rats were not smart and the dumb rats were not dumb.
是啊，虽然聪明的老鼠不聪明，笨的老鼠也不笨。
They were all just the same average kind of lab rat.
它们都是同样普通的实验室老鼠。
It was so shocking, people didn't really believe him.
这太令人震惊了，人们并不真正相信他。
I was having trouble publishing any of this.
我在发布这些内容时遇到了麻烦。
And so what was going on?
那么到底发生了什么事呢？
Like, what was actually happening to make the rats do this?
比如，到底发生了什么让老鼠这么做？
So what Bob figured out was that the expectations that the experimenters carried in their heads subtly changed the way that the experimenters touched the rats, and that changed the way that the rats behaved.
所以鲍勃发现，实验者头脑中的期望巧妙地改变了实验者触摸老鼠的方式，从而改变了老鼠的行为方式。
So when the experimenters thought that the rats were really smart, they felt more warmly towards the rats.
所以当实验者认为老鼠真的很聪明时，他们对老鼠的感觉就更加热情了。
And so they touched them more gently.
所以他们更轻柔地抚摸它们。
We do know that handling rats and handling them more gently can actually increase the performance of rats.
我们确实知道，更温和地对待老鼠实际上可以提高老鼠的表现。
And how does this play out when it comes to people?
当涉及到人们时，这会如何发挥作用？
How do our expectations of other people work?
我们对其他人的期望如何发挥作用？
Well, what you saw in the rats totally holds for people too.
嗯，你在老鼠身上看到的情况也完全适用于人类。
I talked to Carol Dweck, who's a psychologist and researcher at Stanford.
我与斯坦福大学心理学家兼研究员卡罗尔·德韦克进行了交谈。
You may be standing farther away from someone you have lower expectations for.
您可能与您期望较低的人站得较远。
You may not be making as much eye contact.
您可能没有进行那么多的目光接触。
And it's not something you can put your finger on.
这不是你可以指手画脚的事情。
We are not usually aware of how we are conveying our expectations to other people.
我们通常不知道我们如何向他人传达我们的期望。
But it's there.
但它就在那里。
And it happens in all kinds of areas.
这种情况发生在各个领域。
Research has shown that a teacher's expectations can raise or lower a student's IQ score, that a mother's expectations influences the drinking behavior of her middle schooler, that military trainers' expectations can literally make a soldier run faster or slower.
研究表明，老师的期望可以提高或降低学生的智商分数，母亲的期望会影响中学生的饮酒行为，军事训练员的期望实际上可以使士兵跑得更快或更慢。
So my question was-- you know, how far does this go?
所以我的问题是——你知道，这能走多远？
So Carol, clearly these expectation effects exist on a continuum.
卡罗尔，显然这些预期效应存在于一个连续体中。
So for example, if I expect that if somebody jumps off a building, they will be able to fly, that's not going to work out so well, right?
举例来说，如果我期望如果有人从建筑物上跳下来，他们将能够飞翔，那么结果不会那么好，对吧？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alix Spiegel So what does science know about where we should draw the line?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 那么，对于我们应该在哪里划定界限，科学又了解多少呢？
Does it have a clear sense of that?
对此有清晰的认识吗？
No. That line is moving.
不，那条线正在移动。
As we come to understand things that are possible and mechanisms through which a belief affects an outcome or one person affects another person, that line can move.
当我们逐渐了解可能发生的事情以及信念影响结果或一个人影响另一个人的机制时，这条线就会发生变化。
Well, from WBEZ, Chicago, it's This American Life .
好吧，这是来自芝加哥 WBEZ 的《This American Life》。
Today on our program, we have a kind of hard to believe example of what expectations can do to people.
今天在我们的节目中，我们有一个令人难以置信的例子，说明期望会对人们产生什么影响。
This story is from a new radio show and podcast that Alix and Lulu are launching this week.
这个故事来自 Alix 和 Lulu 本周推出的新广播节目和播客。
It's called Invisibilia .
它的名字叫Invisibilia。
It's about the invisible forces that shape human behavior, like beliefs and assumptions and emotions, which I know sounds a little abstract.
这是关于塑造人类行为的无形力量，比如信念、假设和情感，我知道这听起来有点抽象。
But in execution, I have to say it is anything but.
但在执行上，我不得不说绝非如此。
Alix used to work here at our program.
阿利克斯曾经在我们的项目中工作过。
Lulu worked at Radiolab , and their new show is sort of halfway between the two.
Lulu 在 Radiolab 工作，他们的新节目介于两者之间。
A quick heads-up before they launch into this.
在他们开始之前先做一个快速的提醒。
As you may have noticed, their voices sound a lot alike.
您可能已经注意到，他们的声音听起来很相似。
Yes, I know that is not news to the two of you at all.
是的，我知道这对你们两个来说根本不是什么新闻。
So stay with us.
所以和我们一起吧。
And Lulu, let's just jump right in.
露露，让我们直接开始吧。
Where do you want to start?
您想从哪里开始？
Well, I'll start with a question that I asked the rat scientist, the expectations guy, Bob Rosenthal.
好吧，我将从我问老鼠科学家、期望专家鲍勃·罗森塔尔的一个问题开始。
OK.
好的。
Lulu Miller Could my expectations make a blind person who literally has no eyeballs see?
露露·米勒 我的期望能让一个没有眼球的盲人看见东西吗？
No way.
决不。
The expectations will not make him see.
期望不会让他看到。
Positive.
积极的。
Lulu Miller So I'm deep in the woods of Southern California with a man named Daniel Kish.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller） 我和一个名叫丹尼尔·基什（Daniel Kish）的人在南加州的树林深处。
We've been hiking for hours, climbing over tree stumps and along the edges of a steep ravine.
我们已经徒步了几个小时，爬过树桩，沿着陡峭的峡谷边缘爬行。
And we're just sitting down in the dirt to take a break.
我们只是坐在泥土里休息一下。
Could we look at your eyes?
我们可以看看你的眼睛吗？
Daniel Kish In terms of them being out?
丹尼尔·基什（Daniel Kish） 就他们出局而言？
And then Daniel pulls down his lower eyelids--
然后丹尼尔拉下他的下眼睑——
Let me just-- Lulu Miller --and removes his eyes.
让我——露露·米勒——移开他的眼睛。
They're prosthetic, of course, and they clink a little bit as he hands them over to me.
当然，它们是假肢，当他把它们交给我时，它们会发出叮当作响的声音。
That's so cool.
太酷了。
Two of the most beautiful hazel-blue eyes I've ever seen in the palm of his hand.
他手掌上有两只我见过的最美丽的淡蓝色眼睛。
OK.
好的。
Is it OK if my hand-- Daniel Kish Mm-hmm.
如果我的手可以吗——丹尼尔·基什 嗯嗯。
Wow.
哇。
They are so lifelike.
它们是如此栩栩如生。
Does it feel odd to not have them in?
没有他们进来感觉很奇怪吗？
Daniel's eyes had to be removed when he was just a toddler because of cancer.
丹尼尔在蹒跚学步时就因癌症而不得不摘除眼睛。
Retinoblastoma, which is basically eye cancer.
视网膜母细胞瘤，基本上是眼癌。
And yet he's the one who's led me on this hike deep into the woods.
然而他是带领我徒步深入森林的人。
We get to forks in the road, and he knows they're there.
我们到了岔路口，他知道他们在那里。
He leads me across a footbridge that's maybe two and a half feet wide without slowing down.
他带着我穿过一座大约两英尺半宽的人行桥，没有减速。
I think we've passed what I was looking for.
我想我们已经达到了我想要的目标。
And over and over, the path takes us right alongside the edge of a cliff.
一次又一次，这条路把我们带到了悬崖边。
And Daniel gets within inches but always senses it.
丹尼尔虽然距离只有几英寸，但总能感觉到。
So how does he do it?
那么他是怎么做到的呢？
Well, he's got a cane and a hiking stick.
嗯，他有一根手杖和一根登山杖。
But mainly--
但主要是——
[TONGUE CLICKING] Lulu Miller --he clicks.
[舌头点击]露露·米勒——他点击了。
You press the tongue on the roof of the mouth.
将舌头压在上颚上。
You're creating a vacuum.
你正在创造一个真空。
Lulu Miller Huh.
露露·米勒 嗯。
He clicks with his tongue as a way of understanding where he is in space.
他用舌头发出咔哒声，以此来了解他在太空中的位置。
This is basically what bats do.
这基本上就是蝙蝠所做的。
Echolocation, the scientists call it.
科学家称之为回声定位。
It's like sonar.
就像声纳一样。
From the way those clicks bounce off of things in the environment, Daniel gets a sort of sonic representation of what's around him.
从这些点击声从环境中的物体反弹的方式中，丹尼尔得到了他周围事物的某种声音表征。
So here, [TONGUE CLICKING], I can sense trees poking up.
所以在这里，[舌头点击]，我可以感觉到树木伸出来。
Now, Daniel just happened to intuitively invent this when he was a toddler.
现在，丹尼尔只是在他还是个孩子的时候凭直觉发明了这个。
No one taught him or trained him.
没有人教他或训练他。
He just made it up.
他刚刚弥补了这一点。
And since he's been doing it his whole life, he's now so good at it that he can tell all sorts of things about what's in front of him-- if there's a wall, if the vegetation is dense or sparse.
由于他一生都在这样做，所以他现在非常擅长，以至于他可以说出他面前的各种事情——是否有一堵墙，植被是否茂密或稀疏。
Garbage bins.
垃圾箱。
Lulu Miller Ding, ding, ding.
露露·米勒 叮，叮，叮。
And not only does this allow him to hike--
这不仅让他能够徒步旅行——
So we'll go this way.
所以我们就走这条路。
Lulu Miller --navigate foreign cities alone, rock climb, horseback ride, but the one that gets all the attention is that he can ride a bicycle.
露露·米勒——独自游历外国城市，攀岩，骑马，但最引人注目的是他会骑自行车。
Meet Daniel Kish.
认识丹尼尔·基什。
He's blind, but that doesn't stop him from riding his bike.
他是盲人，但这并不妨碍他骑自行车。
You may have heard of Daniel Kish before.
您以前可能听说过丹尼尔·基什。
This real life Batman-- Lulu Miller Because he is the man who clicks, like a bat.
现实生活中的蝙蝠侠——露露·米勒 因为他是一个像蝙蝠一样会发出咔嗒声的人。
And he has made the media rounds to demonstrate what is usually described as his most amazing--
他在媒体面前展示了通常被描述为他最令人惊奇的东西——
Extraordinary.
非凡的。
News Reporter 6 Phenomenal.
新闻记者 6 非凡。
Remarkable.
卓越。
Lulu Miller --nearly superhuman ability of being able to ride a bicycle even though he is blind.
露露·米勒——尽管双目失明，却能骑自行车，近乎超人的能力。
As you watch him, remember, he can't see a thing.
当你看着他时，记住，他什么也看不见。
A narrative that Daniel thinks is all wrong.
丹尼尔认为这种叙述是完全错误的。
(SINGING) Dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee.
（唱歌）迪，迪，迪，迪，迪，迪，迪，迪。
Step right up!
直接站起来吧！
Step right up!
直接站起来吧！
The amazing Daniel Kish will demonstrate one of his greatest tricks to date.
令人惊叹的丹尼尔·基什将展示他迄今为止最伟大的技巧之一。
This is Daniel's buddy Brian Bushway, who has had to watch his poor friend wheel out the old bicycle so many times for the media that he couldn't help but mock the whole set up when I asked him to do it for me.
这是丹尼尔的好友布赖恩·布什威（Brian Bushway），他不得不多次看着他可怜的朋友为媒体推出那辆旧自行车，当我请他为我做这件事时，他忍不住嘲笑整个设置。
And then he will proceed to mount himself on a bike and ride.
然后他将开始骑上自行车并骑行。
And though Daniel indulged, pulling figure eights and riding beautifully as I ran beside him with my microphone, the two of them made it clear that my amazement was kind of offensive.
尽管丹尼尔沉溺其中，当我拿着麦克风跑到他身边时，他拉着八字形，骑得漂亮，但他们两个明确表示，我的惊讶有点令人反感。
So step right up, step right up, and see the amazing Daniel Kish do something that everybody can, but most people don't.
所以站起来，站起来，看看令人惊叹的 Daniel Kish 做了一些每个人都能做的事情，但大多数人却做不到。
And here's where we get back to expectations.
这就是我们回到期望的地方。
See, Daniel thinks there is nothing amazing about him.
瞧，丹尼尔认为他没有什么了不起的。
He thinks that most blind people who don't have other disabilities could do things like ride bikes.
他认为大多数没有其他残疾的盲人都可以做一些事情，比如骑自行车。
I definitely think that most blind people could move around with fluidity and confidence if that were the expectation.
我绝对认为，如果这是期望的话，大多数盲人都可以流畅且自信地四处走动。
See, he thinks the reason that more blind people don't isn't just because they haven't learned to click.
你看，他认为更多盲人不这样做的原因不仅仅是因为他们还没有学会点击。
But it's because the expectations that you or I are carrying around in our own heads about what blind people can do are simply way too low.
但这是因为你或我对盲人能做什么的期望太低了。
They wouldn't be able to hike.
他们将无法徒步旅行。
They wouldn't be able to run.
他们就跑不了了。
They wouldn't be able to engage in manual labor.
他们将无法从事体力劳动。
Daniel, like Bob, thinks those expectations, those private thoughts in our heads, are extremely powerful things, because over time, they have the ability to change the blind person we are thinking about.
丹尼尔和鲍勃一样，认为这些期望，我们头脑中的那些私人想法，是非常强大的东西，因为随着时间的推移，它们有能力改变我们正在思考的盲人。
That psychology becomes inculcated in the blind person, absorbed and translated into physical reality.
这种心理被灌输给盲人，被吸收并转化为物理现实。
And so Daniel thinks if we could all change our expectations of what blind people are capable of, then not only would you see a lot more blind people on bikes, but--
因此丹尼尔认为，如果我们都能改变对盲人能力的期望，那么你不仅会看到更多盲人骑自行车，而且——
More blind people could-- Lulu Miller --in a very real way--
更多盲人可以——露露·米勒——以一种非常真实的方式——
--see.
——看吧。
Lulu Miller Yeah, he just said "see."
露露·米勒 是的，他只是说“看”。
It's actually pretty simple and straightforward.
它实际上非常简单明了。
And it turns out neuroscientists are looking into this idea and seeing some pretty shocking results.
事实证明，神经科学家正在研究这个想法，并看到了一些相当令人震惊的结果。
And we'll get there.
我们会到达那里。
But first, to understand what Daniel means, how expectations could give a blind person vision, we need to first see how Daniel himself shot through this forcefield of low expectations, a story which starts back in 1967, when Daniel was 13 months old, and that second eyeball had just been removed.
但首先，要理解丹尼尔的意思，期望如何给盲人带来视力，我们首先需要看看丹尼尔本人是如何突破这个低期望的力场的，这个故事要追溯到 1967 年，当时丹尼尔 13 个月大，第二只眼球刚刚被摘除。
Oh, my gosh.
哦，天哪。
Lulu Miller This is Danielle's mother, Paulette Kish.
露露·米勒 这是丹妮尔的母亲保莱特·基什。
And a few days after taking her son home from the hospital, Paulette realized she was facing a really difficult choice.
带儿子出院回家几天后，保莱特意识到她面临着一个非常困难的选择。
My mom thought that I should put him in cotton.
我妈妈认为我应该把他放在棉花里。
Cotton?
棉布？
Paulette Kish Wrap him in cotton so that he didn't get hurt, so that he was so protected.
Paulette Kish 用棉布把他包裹起来，这样他就不会受伤，这样他就受到了如此的保护。
That's really how she felt.
这就是她的真实感受。
See, Daniel was a very rambunctious little guy.
看吧，丹尼尔是一个非常暴躁的小家伙。
He started climbing when he was six months old, before he even walked.
他在六个月大的时候就开始爬山，甚至在他学会走路之前。
And that didn't change when he went blind.
即使他失明了，这一点也没有改变。
We had bookshelves he would climb, so I'd have to move everything off the bookshelves, because he would get into them.
我们有他会爬的书架，所以我必须把书架上的所有东西都移走，因为他会爬进去。
So Paulette needed to decide, was her mom right?
所以宝莱特需要做出决定，她妈妈说得对吗？
Was it time to start putting some restrictions on him, or was she going to raise him like a seeing child, allow him to explore his world with very few restrictions on him for blindness?
是时候开始对他施加一些限制了，还是她要把他当作一个有视力的孩子来抚养，让他探索自己的世界，而对他失明的限制很少？
And Paulette went with option two.
保莱特选择了第二个选择。
She was going to banish her fear.
她要消除她的恐惧。
Just put it away.
把它收起来吧。
In the beginning, I think that's what I did.
一开始，我认为这就是我所做的。
I just put it away.
我刚刚把它收起来了。
And so, when two police officers showed up at her door--
于是，当两名警察出现在她家门口时——
Two big, huge police officers holding my child.
两个高大的警察抱着我的孩子。
--having picked up Daniel for climbing the fence into their neighbor's yard--
——因为丹尼尔爬过栅栏进入邻居的院子而受到处罚——
You can't let him do that.
你不能让他这么做。
He could fall.
他可能会摔倒。
It's very scary.
这是非常可怕的。
Lulu Miller --but didn't make Daniel stop.
露露·米勒——但并没有让丹尼尔停下来。
And when the elementary school called and asked her to make Daniel stop clicking--
当小学打电话要求她让丹尼尔停止点击时——
It's not socially acceptable, is what they would say.
他们会说，这是不被社会接受的。
--Paulette said, too bad.
——宝莱特说，太糟糕了。
Paulette Kish He needs to know what's around him, and that's how he does it.
Paulette Kish 他需要知道他周围发生了什么，他就是这么做的。
And so Daniel clicked, [TONGUE CLICKING], past people doing double takes on the street, [TONGUE CLICKING], occasionally bumping into things.
于是丹尼尔点击了，[舌头点击]，经过街上的人们在重复看，[舌头点击]，偶尔会撞到东西。
(CHUCKLING) Yep.
（咯咯笑）是的。
Paulette Kish And then pretty soon--
保莱特·基什 然后很快——
Your blind kid is not only scaling trees and fences by himself, but using just his clicks-- not even using a cane at that point-- he's walking to school by himself, crossing busy roads, exploring his way into neighbors' driveways.
你的盲人孩子不仅能自己爬过树木和栅栏，而且只用他的咔嗒声——当时甚至没有使用拐杖——他可以自己步行去学校，穿过繁忙的道路，探索邻居的车道。
A friend of the family had an undersized bike, and I started riding alongside this retainer wall, until I realized I didn't really need the wall and I could roll alongside the wall without having to touch the wall.
家里的一个朋友有一辆尺寸较小的自行车，我开始沿着这堵固定墙骑行，直到我意识到我并不真正需要这堵墙，我可以沿着墙滚动而不必接触墙壁。
And then--
然后——
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
Daniel Kish I just could ride it.
丹尼尔·基什（Daniel Kish）我可以骑它。
Peppering the environment with a barrage of clicks.
一连串的点击声让环境充满活力。
[TONGUE CLICKING]
[咂舌]
But by six years old, he could do it-- ride completely comfortably on the bike.
但到了六岁时，他就能做到——完全舒适地骑自行车。
[CHUCKLING] Lulu Miller And when neighbors would pop their heads out the door--
[咯咯笑]露露·米勒 当邻居们把头伸出门外时——
How can you let him do that?
你怎么能让他这么做？
Lulu Miller --with their concerns--
露露·米勒——带着他们的担忧——
How can you let him do that?
你怎么能让他这么做？
How can you let him do that?
你怎么能让他这么做？
How can you let him do that?
你怎么能让他这么做？
Yeah, Alix?
是啊，阿利克斯？
Alix Spiegel Can I cut in with a question?
Alix Spiegel 我可以插话问一个问题吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Alix Spiegel Did he ever get hurt?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 他受过伤吗？
Like, really hurt?
比如说，真的受伤了吗？
Well-- Daniel Kish I used to have this game, get to the top of our road and yell, dive bomb, and I would ride insanely fast down the road.
好吧——丹尼尔·基什（Daniel Kish） 我曾经玩过这个游戏，走到我们的路顶大喊，俯冲炸弹，然后我会在路上疯狂地快速骑行。
And everyone would have to scatter.
每个人都必须分散。
Well, one day, I did the dive bomb thing, and as I was screaming down this road, bang.
好吧，有一天，我做了俯冲炸弹的事情，当我沿着这条路尖叫时，砰的一声。
I just collided into a metal light pole.
我刚刚撞到了一根金属灯杆。
And this was not the only pole in Daniel's life.
这并不是丹尼尔生命中唯一的一极。
On the schoolyard, he ran into a pole and knocked out his front teeth.
在校园里，他撞到了一根柱子，门牙被撞掉了。
Teeth.
牙齿。
Lulu Miller A few years after that, he ran straight into a soccer shed.
几年后，露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller) 直接跑进了一个足球棚。
So yeah, he got injured pretty badly a bunch of times.
是的，他多次受过重伤。
But the way that Paulette reacted to these injuries--
但保莱特对这些伤害的反应方式——
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Lulu Miller --was that she always let him keep going.
露露·米勒——她总是让他继续前进。
I mean, shortly after the bike thing, a bicycle appeared under the Christmas tree.
我的意思是，自行车事件发生后不久，一辆自行车出现在圣诞树下。
And, like, I am a mother, and I think that if my kid kept showing up with his front teeth knocked out, I would begin to wonder if I had made the right choice.
而且，就像，我是一位母亲，我认为如果我的孩子总是出现门牙被打掉的情况，我会开始怀疑我是否做出了正确的选择。
Yeah.
是的。
Paulette knows it seems extreme, which brings me to the reason she decided to do this, to raise her blind kid so differently from the way that most blind kids are raised.
保莱特知道这看起来很极端，这让我想到了她决定这样做的原因，以与大多数盲人孩子不同的方式抚养她的盲人孩子。
It was my first marriage.
这是我的第一次婚姻。
It was not a good marriage.
这不是一段美好的婚姻。
My father was an alcoholic, and he was abusive.
我的父亲是个酒鬼，而且有虐待倾向。
Daniel's biological father, who's now dead, would hit Paulette.
丹尼尔的亲生父亲现已去世，他会打宝莱特。
And he was tough with Daniel and Daniel's little brother, taught them to fight.
他对丹尼尔和丹尼尔的弟弟很严厉，教他们打架。
And we had to learn to sort of take physical punishment, as it were, and be able to dish it back.
我们必须学会接受体罚，并能够予以反击。
And Paulette says this is why she ended up being so hands-off with Daniel.
保莱特说这就是为什么她最终对丹尼尔如此不干涉的原因。
[SIGH] Everything that happens in your life has its effect, has its effect.
[叹息]你生活中发生的一切都有它的影响，都有它的影响。
She says that after years of feeling so small and powerless in that marriage, when she finally made it out, she vowed never to be ruled by fear again.
她说，多年来，她在那段婚姻中感到自己如此渺小和无能为力，当她终于走出困境时，她发誓再也不会被恐惧所统治。
I mean, there's life, and then there is living your life.
我的意思是，先有生活，然后再过你的生活。
There is a difference.
有一个区别。
And the same would go for Daniel.
丹尼尔也是如此。
She refused to let those scary thoughts of what could happen make her keep Daniel too close.
她拒绝让那些可能发生的可怕想法让她与丹尼尔走得太近。
But what if Daniel ended up being hit by a car and killed?
但如果丹尼尔最终被车撞死了怎么办？
I asked her.
我问她。
Lulu Miller Like, what if-- what if a car just hits and just plows him down?
露露·米勒 就像，如果——如果一辆汽车撞了他，把他撞倒了怎么办？
But that could happen to anyone.
但这可能发生在任何人身上。
That could happen to anyone.
这可能发生在任何人身上。
There was a group of four kids on the corner up about a block, a car went up the curb and hit them, killed two of them.
大约一个街区外的拐角处有一群四个孩子，一辆汽车驶上路边撞到了他们，其中两人死亡。
It could happen to anyone.
这可能发生在任何人身上。
Yeah.
是的。
Lulu Miller And tree climbing was permitted.
露露·米勒 爬树是允许的。
OK.
好的。
I'll just close my eyes.
我就闭上眼睛吧。
Lulu Miller And this blind little boy was allowed to wander the world as freely as any sighted child.
露露·米勒 这个失明的小男孩被允许像任何视力正常的孩子一样自由地在世界上漫游。
From the fifth grade on, I walked to school almost every day.
从五年级开始，我几乎每天步行去学校。
I had to cross major streets.
我必须穿过主要街道。
I participated in extracurricular activities.
我参加了课外活动。
I made my own breakfast.
我自己做了早餐。
I made my own lunch.
我自己做了午餐。
I mean, were they considered outside the norm?
我的意思是，他们被认为是不正常的吗？
Did they consider themselves outside the norm?
他们认为自己不符合常理吗？
I don't think they noticed it much.
我认为他们并没有注意到这一点。
I don't think they thought about it much.
我认为他们没有考虑太多。
Particularly Daniel didn't know that there was anything odd about the way he got around the world.
特别是丹尼尔不知道他在世界各地的生活方式有什么奇怪的。
Until Adam.
直到亚当.
Adam Shaible My name is Adam Shaible.
亚当·谢布尔 我的名字是亚当·谢布尔。
Excuse me for a second.
请原谅我一下。
This is where the story takes a kind of complicated turn, because Adam is basically the first other blind person that Daniel ever encounters.
这就是故事发生复杂转折的地方，因为亚当基本上是丹尼尔遇到的第一个盲人。
They meet in the fifth grade, when Adam suddenly enrolls in Daniel's school.
他们在五年级时相遇，当时亚当突然进入丹尼尔的学校。
I will say, I was a rather small fellow at the time.
我想说，当时我还是个小人物。
When I was 11, 12, I was under 60 pounds.
当我11、12岁时，我的体重还不到60磅。
Wow.
哇。
And Daniel was not exactly welcoming.
丹尼尔并不十分欢迎。
Daniel said that Adam completely unnerved him because of how incapable he was of getting around on his own.
丹尼尔说，亚当完全让他感到不安，因为他无法独自行走。
Literally just running into walls.
从字面上看，只是碰壁。
I mean, he would just walk along, and his forehead would connect with a wall.
我的意思是，他只是走着走，他的额头就会和墙相连。
And we'd be on the other side of that wall, and we would say, OK, that's Adam, he's coming, kind of thing.
我们会在那堵墙的另一边，我们会说，好吧，那是亚当，他来了，之类的。
Yeah.
是的。
Lulu Miller Adam says he had simply never needed to get around on his own before.
露露·米勒·亚当 (Lulu Miller Adam) 说，他以前根本不需要自己出行。
I went to the School for the Blind from age five to age seven.
我从五岁到七岁就读于盲人学校。
And there, he was taken around on someone's arm almost all the time.
在那里，他几乎总是被人挽着。
In the lunchroom, people brought him his food.
在餐厅里，人们给他送来了食物。
They helped him carry his books, helped him tie his shoelaces.
他们帮他拿书，帮他系鞋带。
I don't know why people did things for me.
我不知道为什么人们为我做事。
They just did.
他们刚刚做到了。
At the time, I had not really conceptualized blindness in that way for myself.
当时，我自己还没有真正以这种方式概念化失明。
And I just didn't understand it.
我就是不明白。
He'd say, Adam can't do anything on his own.
他会说，亚当凭一己之力什么也做不了。
Why?
为什么？
Adam Shaible I just-- I didn't feel safe.
Adam Shaible 我只是——我感觉不安全。
Why?
为什么？
Lulu Miller And then what happened is that the kids at school started to mix up Daniel and Adam.
露露·米勒 然后学校里的孩子们开始混淆丹尼尔和亚当。
People started just lumping us together as the blind kids.
人们开始把我们归为盲童。
We were the same age.
我们同龄。
You were the blind boys.
你们是盲人男孩。
Daniel Kish Yeah.
丹尼尔·基什 是的。
They'd mix up our names, and I didn't like that at all.
他们会把我们的名字搞混，我一点也不喜欢这样。
And so almost to prove his distinction from Adam--
几乎是为了证明他与亚当的区别——
I did the things that kids will do in situations like that.
我做了孩子们在这种情况下会做的事情。
He made fun of Adam.
他取笑亚当。
Lulu Miller He started bullying him.
露露·米勒 他开始欺负他。
I wondered if there was something I had done.
我想知道我是否做了什么事情。
I was pretty brutal.
我是相当残酷的。
Lulu Miller --and even beat him up a few times.
露露·米勒——甚至还殴打了他几次。
Yeah.
是的。
Daniel Kish And that, in my aggressive little mind, was the thing that set me apart.
丹尼尔·基什（Daniel Kish） 在我咄咄逼人的小头脑中，这就是让我与众不同的原因。
I wanted to be his friend.
我想成为他的朋友。
Alix Spiegel So then what happened?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 那么发生了什么？
Adam and Daniel went to different schools, and Daniel just tried his best to forget this kid so like him, who couldn't get around in the world.
亚当和丹尼尔去了不同的学校，丹尼尔只是尽力忘记这个像他一样无法在世界上混日子的孩子。
And um, we just lost track-- Adam Shaible We just lost track of each other.
嗯，我们刚刚失去了踪迹—— Adam Shaible 我们只是失去了彼此的踪迹。
Daniel goes off to college, doesn't really associate himself with the blind community.
丹尼尔去上大学，并没有真正将自己与盲人社区联系起来。
His plan is to become a researcher, an autism researcher.
他的计划是成为一名研究员，一名自闭症研究员。
And then one day, he happens to pick up this book.
然后有一天，他碰巧拿起了这本书。
The Making of Blind Men by Robert Scott.
罗伯特·斯科特的《盲人的制作》。
I go by Bob.
我通过鲍勃来。
You can spell that either way.
无论哪种方式都可以拼写。
All right.
好的。
This is the book's author, Bob Scott, a former professor of sociology at Princeton.
这是本书的作者，鲍勃·斯科特，普林斯顿大学前社会学教授。
And inside this book was the idea that would change Daniel's life, an idea that when you first hear it sounds kind of out there-- that blindness is a social construction.
这本书里的想法将改变丹尼尔的生活，当你第一次听到这个想法时，这个想法听起来有点像——失明是一种社会建构。
Wait, was Bob saying that people are not physically blind?
等等，鲍勃是在说人们并不是肉眼看不见的吗？
Kind of.
有点儿。
But let me just tell you how he gets there.
但让我告诉你他是如何到达那里的。
OK.
好的。
Lulu Miller So fresh out of grad school, Bob got this job to conduct a huge, multi-year long survey to see how effective blindness organizations were at helping the blind.
露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller) 鲍勃刚从研究生院毕业，就得到了这份工作，进行一项为期多年的大型调查，以了解失明组织在帮助盲人方面的有效性。
Yep.
是的。
Lulu Miller And so he begins interviewing hundreds of blind people, goes out on hundreds of site visits.
露露·米勒于是他开始采访数百名盲人，进行数百次实地考察。
Basically gathering information in any way I could imagine that I could get it.
基本上以我能想到的任何方式收集信息。
And then one day, many months into the process, he had--
然后有一天，在这个过程进行了好几个月之后，他——
He was out walking in a snowstorm in New York City, when he happened to see--
他在纽约市的一场暴风雪中外出散步，这时他碰巧看到——
A blind beggar-- Lulu Miller --asking for money--
盲人乞丐——露露·米勒——要钱——
--standing on the corner at Bloomingdale's.
——站在布鲁明代尔百货公司的拐角处。
And he thought, hey, someone else to interview for my survey.
他想，嘿，还有其他人来采访我的调查。
I said, would you allow me to buy some of your time?
我说，你能允许我买点你的时间吗？
And I gave him-- I don't know-- $25 or something like that.
我给了他——我不知道——25 美元或者类似的东西。
We went in and sat down at a restaurant, and I said, tell me your story.
我们进去一家餐馆坐下，我说，告诉我你的故事。
Turns out the man had worked at a paint factory until a few years before, when an accident there left him blind.
原来，这名男子几年前一直在一家油漆厂工作，当时那里发生了一场事故，导致他双目失明。
And the people at the factory really liked the guy, so they said, look, why don't you go to an organization for the blind, get some training, and then come back and work for us?
工厂里的人真的很喜欢这个家伙，所以他们说，你看，你为什么不去盲人组织，接受一些培训，然后回来为我们工作呢？
So the guy said, great.
于是那家伙说，太好了。
He went to an organization for the blind.
他去了一个盲人组织。
He said, I've got this job all lined up.
他说，这份工作我已经安排好了。
Can you just help me with a few basic things.
你能帮我做一些基本的事情吗？
And the blindness organization said no.
失明组织拒绝了。
Oh, no. You can't do that.
哦，不。你不能那样做。
Blind people can't do those things.
盲人是做不到这些事情的。
What we're going to do is put you through a program of rehabilitation and then move you along to our sheltered workshop that manufactures mops and brooms.
我们要做的就是让您接受康复计划，然后将您转移到我们生产拖把和扫帚的庇护工场。
And Bob said there was one sentence in that response that jumped out at him.
鲍勃说，他的回答中有一句话让他印象深刻。
And he began to wonder, wait, is that true?
他开始怀疑，等等，这是真的吗？
Could this guy really not work in a paint factory?
难道这家伙真的不在涂料厂工作吗？
Because over the course of his research, he'd seen blind people that could do all sorts of things.
因为在他的研究过程中，他看到盲人可以做各种各样的事情。
And the more that Bob looked around, he started to see that message--
鲍勃环顾四周，他开始看到这条信息——
--being communicated to the blind people by the blind organizations that serve them-- not necessarily always as explicitly as in the case of the paint guy.
——由为盲人服务的盲人组织向他们传达信息——不一定总是像油漆工那样明确。
Like, how else then?
比如说，那还能怎样呢？
Lulu Miller Well, take the fact that at that time, of the almost 20,000 blind kids that were in America, 2/3 of them were being kept on the sidelines in gym class.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller） 好吧，以当时的事实为例，在美国近 20,000 名盲童中，有 2/3 的人只能在体育课旁观望。
Play tag, run around on your own--
玩捉迷藏，自己乱跑——
And then there was the organization's insistence that adult blind people get help getting around.
然后该组织坚持要求成年盲人获得出行帮助。
They are picked up at their homes.
他们在自己家里被接走。
They're driven there.
他们被赶到那里。
They're met at the sidewalk, walked into the agency, escorted to wherever they're going-- everything is being done for them.
他们在人行道上遇见，走进机构，护送到他们要去的地方——一切都为他们做好了。
And even though all this was intended to help, Bob began to wonder if maybe, just maybe, the organizations' low expectations for what blind people could do was in some way actually limiting the blind people that those organizations sought to help.
尽管所有这些都是为了提供帮助，鲍勃开始怀疑，也许，只是也许，这些组织对盲人能做的事情的低期望在某种程度上实际上限制了这些组织寻求帮助的盲人。
What I came to realize is that how they functioned was a process of learning.
我逐渐意识到，它们的运作方式是一个学习的过程。
It was not imposed on them entirely by the fact that they couldn't see.
这并不完全是由于他们看不见而强加给他们的。
So is Bob saying that blindness is mostly in our head?
那么鲍勃是说失明主要是在我们的头脑中吗？
That blind people can actually do everything that sighted people can do?
盲人真的能做视力正常的人能做的一切吗？
Because my dad is blind, and he is very, very limited in what he can do.
因为我爸爸是盲人，他能做的事情非常非常有限。
And I gotta say, I don't feel like the obstacles that he faces are obstacles that he wouldn't face if he just thought differently about his blindness.
我必须说，我不认为他所面临的障碍是如果他对自己的失明有不同的看法就不会遇到的障碍。
Well, Bob is pretty hardcore about this.
嗯，鲍勃对此非常顽固。
I think he would say that with enough time, your dad actually could do a lot more, because he thinks the only real absolute physical limitation of blindness is about an inability to perceive things in the distance.
我想他会说，如果有足够的时间，你父亲实际上可以做更多的事情，因为他认为失明唯一真正绝对的身体限制是无法感知远处的事物。
Exactly, anything that I can't reach out and touch.
确切地说，是任何我伸手无法触及的东西。
But you can compensate for everything else.
但你可以弥补其他一切。
And Alix?
阿利克斯呢？
Uh-huh?
嗯？
Lulu Miller Bob wasn't actually the first person to come up with this idea.
露露·米勒·鲍勃实际上并不是第一个提出这个想法的人。
Blind people were.
盲人是。
A group called the National Federation of the Blind has for a long time advocated this kind of idea.
一个叫全国盲人联合会的团体长期以来一直提倡这种想法。
This is a group formed by blind people for blind people, and they think that the physical condition of blindness--
这是一个由盲人组成的为盲人服务的团体，他们认为盲人的身体状况——
It doesn't explain nearly as much as people believe it explains.
它并没有像人们认为的那样解释得那么多。
So if you buy this logic, people who are blind-- like, the only thing that's standing between them and walking around the world, like Daniel does, is our beliefs?
所以，如果你相信这个逻辑，那些盲人——像丹尼尔一样，在他们和世界各地行走之间唯一的障碍就是我们的信仰？
Yeah.
是的。
You know, that sounds totally crazy, and that is exactly what he's saying.
你知道，这听起来很疯狂，而这正是他所说的。
Which brings us back to Daniel.
这让我们回到丹尼尔。
Daniel reads this book, and he starts thinking about Adam.
丹尼尔读了这本书，他开始思考亚当。
You know, maybe it wasn't that Adam was this weirdo, tentative kid but that he was a very typical product of a system.
你知道，也许亚当并不是这个古怪的、犹豫不决的孩子，而是他是一个非常典型的系统产物。
You mean, like, the system taught Adam that he would have trouble moving around.
你的意思是，系统告诉亚当，他在四处走动时会遇到困难。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, he was led around school.
我的意思是，他被带到学校周围。
People brought him his food--
人们给他送来食物——
I don't know why people did things for me.
我不知道为什么人们为我做事。
They just did.
他们刚刚做到了。
And when Daniel looked at the world around him, he thought, you know, a lot has changed.
当丹尼尔看着他周围的世界时，他想，你知道，很多事情都发生了变化。
But a lot is frighteningly similar.
但很多事情都惊人地相似。
From then till today, things are similar?
从那时到今天，事情都是相似的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Lulu Miller I called around to over a dozen blindness organizations all over the country.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller） 我给全国各地十几个失明组织打了电话。
My name is Daniel Norris, supervisor of adult services for the Vermont Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired.
我叫丹尼尔·诺里斯，是佛蒙特州盲人和视障者协会成人服务主管。
And supervisor after supervisor told me that what Bob Scott saw is still very much alive today.
一个又一个的主管告诉我，鲍勃·斯科特所看到的东西至今仍然鲜活。
In what way?
以什么方式？
Lulu Miller So most children who are blind in America don't actually go to schools for the blind anymore.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller） 所以，美国的大多数盲人儿童实际上不再去盲人学校了。
Right.
正确的。
Lulu Miller Thanks to the Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975, most blind kids stay in their local public schools, which is great.
Lulu Miller 得益于 1975 年《所有残疾儿童教育法案》，大多数盲童可以留在当地公立学校，这很好。
But on those public school grounds, says Norris--
但诺里斯说，在那些公立学校的操场上——
There is a lot of pressure to keep a child safe, especially in a litigious society.
确保孩子的安全面临着很大的压力，尤其是在一个好诉讼的社会。
So many of the blind students are still placed with a paraeducator, which can be good.
许多盲人学生仍然被安置在辅助教育者身边，这可能是件好事。
But sometimes--
但有时——
Those paraeducators can end up doing the work for the kids.
这些辅助教育工作者最终可以为孩子们做这些工作。
Like Adam.
就像亚当一样。
Daniel Norris When you lighten someone's load, you don't allow them to expand.
丹尼尔·诺里斯（Daniel Norris）：当你减轻某人的负担时，你就不允许他们扩张。
I talked to mothers whose blind kids were pulled off of playground equipment.
我和那些盲人孩子被从游乐场设备上拉下来的母亲们交谈过。
And perhaps the most chilling thing is the fact that most blind kids will intuitively start clicking--
也许最令人毛骨悚然的是，大多数盲童都会本能地开始点击——
[TONGUE CLICKING] Lulu Miller --or snapping or stamping to test out their environment with sound.
[舌头点击]露露·米勒——或者用声音测试他们的环境。
But they are so often discouraged--
但他们常常灰心丧气——
It's not socially acceptable, is what they would say.
他们会说，这是不被社会接受的。
--that they never get the chance to develop their skill to the level Daniel did.
——他们从来没有机会将自己的技能发展到丹尼尔那样的水平。
So how are we doing as a nation?
那么我们作为一个国家做得怎么样？
We have not taught independence.
我们没有教过独立。
He points out that in America, a majority of blind people are unemployed.
他指出，在美国，大多数盲人都失业。
And while that could be for a lot of reasons, Norris thinks that's on us.
虽然这可能有很多原因，但诺里斯认为这是我们的责任。
What we are doing is we are creating slaves to others' thinking.
我们所做的就是创造他人思想的奴隶。
That's Daniel Kish again.
又是丹尼尔·基什。
Daniel Kish Slaves to others' perception, slaves to what others think they should be doing.
丹尼尔·基什（Daniel Kish）是别人看法的奴隶，是别人认为他们应该做的事情的奴隶。
And somehow we're comfortable with that.
不知怎的，我们对此感到满意。
And so, though he had never wanted to work in the profession of blindness-- in fact, he'd wanted to get as far away from it as he could-- Daniel Kish decided he sort of had no choice.
因此，尽管他从来不想从事失明行业——事实上，他想尽可能远离它——但丹尼尔·基什认为他别无选择。
It sucked me in kind of kicking and screaming.
它让我又踢又叫。
He could see what was happening.
他可以看到发生了什么。
And he held in his tongue, [TONGUE CLICKING], a way out.
他的舌头里含着，[舌头咔哒]，一条出路。
So he decided that he would dedicate his life to trying to liberate blind children.
于是他决定毕生致力于解放盲童。
Kind of like Batman?
有点像蝙蝠侠？
Lulu Miller Exactamundo, fighting for good in the world in a kind of vigilante way, because actually, the way that you go about liberating a blind child from the constraining forces of culture, it can get kind of ugly.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller）Exactamundo，以一种义务警员的方式为世界的美好而战，因为实际上，将盲童从文化的束缚中解放出来的方式可能会变得有点丑陋。
Coming up, the Dark Knight rises.
即将到来，黑暗骑士崛起。
Lulu and Alix are back in a minute, from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
当我们的节目继续时，露露和阿利克斯很快就会从芝加哥公共广播电台回来。
It's This American Life .
这就是美国生活。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Today on our program, we have a story from a brand new radio show and podcast called Invisibilia .
今天在我们的节目中，我们有一个来自名为 Invisibilia 的全新广播节目和播客的故事。
It's from NPR News.
来自 NPR 新闻。
Science reporters Alix Spiegel and Lulu Miller are the hosts.
科学记者阿利克斯·斯皮格尔和露露·米勒担任主持人。
And they're here today talking about how profoundly other people's expectations can affect us and about a blind man named Daniel Kish.
他们今天在这里谈论别人的期望对我们的影响有多大，以及一个名叫丹尼尔·基什的盲人。
Anyway, again, here's Alix.
无论如何，这又是阿利克斯。
So when last we met Daniel, he had decided that he was going to become a kind of real-life Batman who would save people who were blind from the low expectations of their culture.
因此，当我们上次见到丹尼尔时，他决定要成为现实生活中的蝙蝠侠，拯救那些因文化低期望而盲目的人们。
But before we keep going, I should probably point out that lots of blind people don't necessarily want him as their savior.
但在我们继续之前，我可能应该指出，很多盲人并不一定希望他成为他们的救世主。
A bunch of them told us, basically, clicks shmicks!
他们中的一些人告诉我们，基本上，点击效果很差！
Because I get along just fine without doing that clicking noise, or whatever he calls it.
因为我相处得很好，没有发出那种咔哒声，或者不管他怎么称呼它。
This is Bob Ringwald, a musician in California.
我是鲍勃·林沃德 (Bob Ringwald)，加利福尼亚州的一位音乐家。
He says he's got a cane.
他说他有一根拐杖。
It works great.
效果很好。
He does everything he wants.
他做他想做的一切。
When I wanted to learn guitar, I did, and I've done a lot of climbing around on my roof and climbing up poles.
当我想学吉他时，我就学了，而且我经常在屋顶上爬来爬去，爬上电线杆。
And anything I wanted to do, I did.
我想做的事，我都做了。
Now, Bob Ringwald-- in fact, all of the blind people that we spoke to for this story-- agreed with Daniel that low expectations hold blind people back.
现在，鲍勃·林沃德（Bob Ringwald）——事实上，我们在这个故事中采访过的所有盲人——都同意丹尼尔的观点，即低期望会阻碍盲人的发展。
But that didn't necessarily mean that they wanted to echolocate.
但这并不一定意味着他们想要回声定位。
For example, when Bob Ringwald was seven, in school for the blind back in the '50s, he knew some kids who clicked and said they just seemed a little weird.
例如，鲍勃·林沃德 (Bob Ringwald) 七岁时，在 50 年代的盲人学校里，他认识一些孩子，他们说他们看起来有点奇怪。
I really didn't want to go through life clicking all the time.
我真的不想一直过着点击的生活。
A lot of people think blind people are strange.
很多人认为盲人很奇怪。
So I didn't want to be any stranger than I already was.
所以我不想变得比现在更陌生。
A lot of instructors don't like people to do that, because it does look funny.
很多教练不喜欢人们这样做，因为这看起来很有趣。
Eric Woods is also blind, and a retired mobility instructor in Colorado.
埃里克·伍兹（Eric Woods）也是盲人，是科罗拉多州的一名退休行动教练。
And it's socially unacceptable-- not unacceptable, but it's socially different.
这在社会上是不可接受的——不是不可接受，但它在社会上是不同的。
And so it has been discouraged.
因此它被劝阻了。
I've heard plenty of people discourage it.
我听说很多人都劝阻它。
And Daniel knew this.
丹尼尔知道这一点。
He knew what he was up against.
他知道自己要面对的是什么。
So Lulu, what did Daniel do?
那么露露，丹尼尔做了什么？
Well, he starts up a nonprofit, as you do-- a nonprofit that will teach people how to echolocate.
嗯，他像你一样创办了一个非营利组织——一个教人们如何回声定位的非营利组织。
Grace.
优雅。
Lulu Miller This is one of his early instructional videos.
Lulu Miller 这是他早期的教学视频之一。
It's now 2001, and since his aim is nothing short of liberation, he calls it World Access for the Blind.
现在是 2001 年，由于他的目标就是解放，他将其称为“世界盲人无障碍”。
World Access for the Blind.
盲人进入世界。
Lulu Miller Now, the only little problem that he runs into is that at that time, a blind person teaching another blind person how to get around is basically unheard of.
露露·米勒现在唯一遇到的小问题就是，那个时候，一个盲人教另一个盲人如何出行，基本上是闻所未闻的。
The blind cannot lead the blind is right out of the Bible.
盲人不能给盲人带路，这句话出自《圣经》。
It's fundamental to our culture.
这是我们文化的基础。
In fact, until the mid '90s-- Daniel Kish There was no certification for blind people to train other blind people.
事实上，直到 90 年代中期——丹尼尔·基什 (Daniel Kish) 还没有针对盲人的认证来培训其他盲人。
Wow.
哇。
Bob Scott Blind people can't do those things.
鲍勃·斯科特盲人做不到这些事情。
So this is actually when the bike trick became big-- like, though he sort of hates "Look at the blind man ride a bike," he realized that could get him attention.
所以这实际上是自行车技巧变得重要的时候——就像，虽然他有点讨厌“看看盲人骑自行车”，但他意识到这可以引起他的注意。
So he starts going on all these TV shows with his trick.
所以他开始用他的伎俩出现在所有这些电视节目中。
And my segment was between something about vampires and some other thing about faith healing or whatever.
我的部分是关于吸血鬼和其他关于信仰治疗或其他什么的事情之间。
And on these TV appearances, he'd try to send some sort of signal to blind kids who might be watching, who might be able to contact him.
在这些电视节目中，他会尝试向可能正在观看的盲人孩子发送某种信号，他们可能能够联系到他。
[APPLAUSE] Tv Host Dan, can anyone learn this?
[鼓掌]电视主持人丹，有人能学这个吗？
Echolocation is a skill-- piano playing, for example.
回声定位是一种技能——例如弹钢琴。
Some people may be more talented than others, but I think that anyone could learn it.
有些人可能比其他人更有才华，但我认为任何人都可以学习。
Slowly but surely, families started contacting him, which meant that Daniel was now faced with a question.
慢慢地，但可以肯定的是，家人开始联系他，这意味着丹尼尔现在面临一个问题。
Could he actually undo the damage of low expectations?
他真的能消除低期望带来的伤害吗？
And this is where things begin to get a little morally complicated.
这就是事情在道德上开始变得有点复杂的地方。
The example I'm about to give is an example that took place about 10 years ago.
我要举的例子是大约10年前发生的一个例子。
Daniel told me about going out to teach one of his first students ever, a little 10-year-old boy.
丹尼尔告诉我，他出去教他的第一批学生，一个 10 岁的小男孩。
Out in Washington state.
出在华盛顿州。
Daniel Kish I come out.
丹尼尔·基什 我出来了。
And basically, what I see is a boy who won't leave his house.
基本上，我看到的是一个不会离开家的男孩。
And so Daniel's idea was to get him to climb a tree.
所以丹尼尔的想法是让他爬树。
They live on an orchard full of trees, for goodness' sakes.
天哪，他们住在一个长满树木的果园里。
But the kid won't budge.
但孩子不肯让步。
So to get him out the door, Daniel takes away all his toys.
为了把他赶出去，丹尼尔拿走了他所有的玩具。
Our purpose was to kind of simulate the world that he was choosing for himself.
我们的目的是模拟他为自己选择的世界。
So this is what life will have in store for you-- basically nothing, OK?
这就是生活将为你准备的东西——基本上什么都没有，好吗？
Nothing.
没有什么。
And after about a week, the kid finally agrees to go climb a frickin' tree.
大约一周后，孩子终于同意去爬一棵该死的树。
And he gets up onto the first branch and the second branch and then says, OK.
他爬上第一根树枝和第二根树枝，然后说，好吧。
I give up.
我放弃。
I give up.
我放弃。
Yeah, but you know what?
是的，但你知道吗？
Giving up isn't an option.
放弃不是一个选择。
You can decide never to climb a tree for the rest of your life, but we are going to climb this one.
你可以决定一辈子不再爬一棵树，但我们要爬这棵树。
And I said, you can go up, you cannot go down.
我说，你可以上去，你不能下来。
And he just had a fit-- literally screaming himself hoarse.
他只是一阵痉挛——简直把自己喊得声音嘶哑。
I mean, he actually jumped at one point.
我的意思是，他确实有一次跳了起来。
Like, he actually leapt off the tree, he was in such a frenzy.
就像他真的从树上跳下来一样，他真是太疯狂了。
Oh my god, Lulu.
天哪，露露。
And what does Daniel do?
丹尼尔做了什么？
Well, he catches him.
好吧，他抓住了他。
He's right below him.
他就在他的正下方。
And he just says, no.
他只是说，不。
And they stay in this tree battling it out.
他们留在这棵树上奋战到底。
Inch by inch by-- it took three hours to get up a 60-foot tree.
一寸一寸——爬上一棵 60 英尺高的树花了三个小时。
But by the end, the kid was doing it himself.
但到最后，这孩子还是自己做了。
--doing it himself.
——自己做的。
He started finding his own footholds, finding his own handholds.
他开始寻找自己的立足点，寻找自己的抓手。
And Daniel thinks this training and how the parents then took it on too changed the boy's life.
丹尼尔认为这种训练以及父母随后的接受方式也改变了男孩的生活。
By the age of 13, he was out of his shell.
13岁那年，他脱胎换骨。
He had joined Boy Scouts.
他加入了童子军。
That is in no way where he was headed.
这绝不是他要去的地方。
Hm.
嗯。
That is just crazy, though, that story, on some level.
不过，从某种程度上来说，这个故事太疯狂了。
I don't know if that kind of bullying is even allowed in America anymore, you know?
我不知道这种欺凌行为在美国是否还被允许，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And most schools for the blind have been reluctant to hire him because of liability issues.
由于责任问题，大多数盲人学校都不愿意雇用他。
They're scared it'll be too dangerous for their students.
他们担心这对他们的学生来说太危险了。
I bet.
我敢打赌。
Lulu Miller But see, Daniel would say that attitude, Alix, is part of the problem.
露露·米勒 但是，丹尼尔会说，阿利克斯，态度是问题的一部分。
So what are a few tears, huh, a few scratches?
那么，几滴泪水、几处划痕算什么？
He has this line he always says.
他常说这句话。
Running into a pole is a drag.
撞到一根杆子是一种阻力。
But never being allowed to run into a pole is a disaster.
但绝不允许撞上一根柱子就是一场灾难。
He worries that when you prevent a kid from, say, running into a pole, what you end up preventing them from is the kind of experience that allow for-- and this gets me back to that crazy sounding claim he made at the beginning of the show-- actual sight.
他担心，当你阻止一个孩子，比如说，撞上一根柱子时，你最终阻止他们的是一种允许——这让我回到了他在节目开始时提出的那种听起来很疯狂的说法——真实的景象。
If our culture recognized the capacity of blind people to see, then more blind people would learn to see.
如果我们的文化认识到盲人有看见的能力，那么更多的盲人就会学会看见。
It's actually pretty simple and straightforward.
它实际上非常简单明了。
Daniel thinks this because, well, he says he sees.
丹尼尔这么想是因为，好吧，他说他看到了。
I definitely would say that I experience images, that I have images.
我肯定会说我体验图像，我有图像。
And he isn't talking metaphorically here.
他在这里并不是在比喻。
They are images of spatial character and depth that have a lot of the same qualities that a person who sees would see.
它们是具有空间特征和深度的图像，与人们所看到的有很多相同的品质。
Hi.
你好。
Lulu Miller This is Lore Thaler, a German neuroscientist at Durham University in the UK.
露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller) 我是洛尔·泰勒 (Lore Thaler)，英国达勒姆大学的德国神经科学家。
And Lore knows a lot about sight.
洛尔对视觉了解很多。
She studies vision in the brain-- literally how the images we see are constructed.
她研究大脑中的视觉——确切地说，我们看到的图像是如何构建的。
It sounds simple, but an image is actually a complex construct.
听起来很简单，但图像实际上是一个复杂的结构。
Several years ago, Lore happened across a video of Daniel.
几年前，洛尔偶然发现了丹尼尔的一段视频。
OK, so we had a little string of parked vehicles there--
好吧，我们在那里停了一小串车辆——
And as she watched the way that he so easily moved through space, she found herself wondering, was there any way that Daniel's brain was indeed constructing images?
当她看着他如此轻松地在空间中移动时，她发现自己在想，丹尼尔的大脑是否确实在构建图像？
OK, so you may know this already, but Lore reminded me that an image, even though it feels like it's out there in the world in front of your eyes actually exists behind the eyes.
好吧，你可能已经知道了，但 Lore 提醒我，一个图像，尽管感觉它就在你眼前的世界中，但实际上却存在于你的眼睛后面。
The image, it's something that your mind constructs.
图像，是你的头脑构建的东西。
In a part of your brain called the visual cortex.
在大脑中称为视觉皮层的部分。
So Lore brought Daniel and a few other people who can echolocate into her lab, and she took recordings of them while they clicked at different objects in space.
因此，洛尔将丹尼尔和其他一些能够进行回声定位的人带到了她的实验室，当他们点击空间中的不同物体时，她拍摄了他们的录音。
[TONGUE CLICKING] Lulu Miller A car, a lamppost-- these are her actual recordings-- a salad bowl, a salad bowl in motion.
[舌头点击]露露米勒一辆汽车，一根灯柱——这些是她的真实录音——一个沙拉碗，一个运动中的沙拉碗。
You stand behind the person with a salad bowl on a fishing pole, and you slowly wave it.
你站在那个人身后，鱼竿上放着一个沙拉碗，你慢慢地挥动它。
Right.
正确的。
Lulu Miller And the microphones were actually in their ears.
露露·米勒 麦克风实际上就在他们的耳朵里。
Oh, that's neat.
哦，那很整洁。
Lulu Miller And then she played the recordings back to them, one object at a time, while they were lying down in fMRI machines, so she could watch how their brains responded.
露露·米勒 然后，当他们躺在功能磁共振成像仪中时，她将录音回放给他们，一次一个对象，这样她就可以观察他们的大脑如何反应。
[TONGUE CLICKING] Salad bowl.
[舌头点击]沙拉碗。
[TONGUE CLICKING] Salad bowl in motion.
[舌头咔嚓]沙拉碗在运动。
And then in a second study, she compared those readings to what happens in the brains of sighted people looking at the same kinds of things.
然后在第二项研究中，她将这些读数与视力正常的人看到同类事物时大脑中发生的情况进行了比较。
Salad bowl.
沙拉碗。
Salad bowl in motion.
沙拉碗在运动。
Very clever, very clever.
非常聪明，非常聪明。
Lulu Miller Yep.
露露·米勒 是的。
And what she found is that even though for decades scientists assumed that the visual cortex goes dark when you are blind, Daniel's was lighting up like a disco ball.
她发现，尽管几十年来科学家一直认为失明时视觉皮层会变暗，但丹尼尔的视觉皮层却像迪斯科球一样亮起来。
Yeah, so that was really very impressive.
是的，这真的非常令人印象深刻。
And the way in which it was lighting up-- this is really cool.
它发光的方式——这真的很酷。
So it turns out that there are all these different parts of the brain involved in vision.
事实证明，大脑的所有不同部分都与视觉有关。
So there's an area that's specifically dedicated to processing motion, and that's way over here behind the ears.
所以有一个区域专门用于处理运动，就在耳朵后面。
And then there's a completely different area for texture--
然后还有一个完全不同的纹理区域——
--orientation, shape.
——方向、形状。
And in Daniel's brain, many of these areas were lighting up.
在丹尼尔的大脑中，许多区域都被点亮了。
Color and brightness, no action there.
颜色和亮度，那里没有任何动作。
But motion, when they did that salad bowl in motion test, the motion area behind the ears started pumping with blood flow.
但是运动，当他们进行沙拉碗运动测试时，耳朵后面的运动区域开始随着血液流动。
Very vigorously.
非常有力。
Lulu Miller And orientation-- turns out there's sort of a grid for orientation in the brain.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller）：还有定向——事实证明，大脑中有一个用于定向的网格。
And she could watch as the salad bowl moved across those quadrants.
她可以看着沙拉碗穿过这些象限。
It was really robust, highly significant.
它确实非常强大，非常重要。
All right, Miss Spiegel.
好吧，斯皮格尔小姐。
So I know that sometimes neurology and neuroscience--
所以我知道有时神经病学和神经科学——
Goes over my head?
超过我的头了吗？
Lulu Miller Or just sounds like a foreign language that you're not particularly interested in speaking.
Lulu Miller 或者只是听起来像是一门外语，而你对此并不是特别感兴趣。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Just land the plane for me.
帮我降落飞机。
What does this mean?
这意味着什么？
What this work suggests is that you may not actually need eyes to see.
这项研究表明，你实际上可能并不需要眼睛来观看。
I kind of feel like we've got to shout it from the rooftops.
我觉得我们必须在屋顶上大声喊出来。
Come on.
快点。
Oh my god.
我的天啊。
Lulu Miller OK.
露露·米勒 好的。
You might not need eyes to see!
你可能不需要眼睛就能看到！
Now, Lore is by no means the only person seeing this result.
现在，洛尔绝不是唯一看到这个结果的人。
The idea first started coming up in the mid '90s, when a lab at Harvard saw that visual areas of the brain can be activated by sound and touch.
这个想法首次出现于 20 世纪 90 年代中期，当时哈佛大学的一个实验室发现大脑的视觉区域可以通过声音和触摸来激活。
And since then, dozens of labs have been looking into just how nuanced and rich that visual imagery may be.
从那时起，数十个实验室一直在研究视觉图像的细微差别和丰富程度。
So there's a guy at Berkeley, Santani Teng, who's been trying to determine the acuity of these images.
伯克利分校的桑塔尼·滕（Santani Teng）一直在试图确定这些图像的敏锐度。
You know, like an eye test-- how close to 20/20 are they?
你知道，就像视力测试一样——它们有多接近 20/20？
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Lulu Miller And what he's found is that their 75% localization thresholds indicated spatial acuity as fine as 1.5 degrees of the subtended angle.
Lulu Miller 他发现，他们的 75% 定位阈值表明空间敏锐度精确到对角的 1.5 度。
No!
不！
Lulu Miller It's true!
露露·米勒 这是真的！
I'll put it another way.
我会用另一种方式来表达。
He thinks their world looks a lot like your peripheral vision.
他认为他们的世界看起来很像你的余光。
So imagine that you're texting on your cellphone walking down the street.
想象一下，您正走在街上用手机发短信。
OK, you're looking at that screen.
好的，您正在看着那个屏幕。
Now, what does the street look like to you?
现在，你觉得这条街是什么样子的？
You know, you can see people coming at you.
你知道，你可以看到人们向你走来。
You can see cars.
你可以看到汽车。
You can see trees.
你可以看到树木。
But you couldn't read a sign.
但你看不懂标志。
That, he thinks, is Daniel's world.
他认为那是丹尼尔的世界。
I can honestly, honestly say that I do not feel blind.
我可以诚实地、诚实地说，我并不觉得自己是盲目的。
So what does Lore say about this?
那么洛尔对此怎么说呢？
Does she think that the echolocators are actually seeing?
她认为回声定位器真的能看到东西吗？
Well-- Lore Thaler That's almost philosophical, isn't it?
嗯——Lore Thaler 这几乎是哲学性的，不是吗？
Lore asks the only people on Earth who can know-- people who use to see.
传说询问地球上唯一能知道的人——那些习惯于看见的人。
You know, is what they're experiencing comparable?
你知道，他们所经历的事情有可比性吗？
Yeah, oh yeah.
是啊，哦，是啊。
Lulu Miller This is Brian Bushway, who you met briefly at the top of the show.
露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller) 这是布莱恩·布什威 (Brian Bushway)，您在节目开头曾短暂见过他。
So step right up!
所以赶紧站起来吧！
I became totally blind at the age of 14.
我14岁时就完全失明了。
Just [SNAP] like that!
就这样[啪]！
Lulu Miller --the world around him, although blurrier and colorless, appeared again.
露露·米勒——周围的世界虽然变得更加模糊和无色，但又再次出现了。
Things are real.
事情是真实的。
I mean, it's as real as looking at it.
我的意思是，它就像看着它一样真实。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
So Lulu, does every blind person have this?
那么露露，每个盲人都有这个吗？
No. And that's the thing-- Lore has looked at the brains of people who do not echolocate, and though there's definitely some activity in the visual cortex, it's simply not as active.
不。事情就是这样——洛尔观察了不进行回声定位的人的大脑，虽然视觉皮层肯定有一些活动，但它根本不那么活跃。
Which brings me back to Daniel's teaching methods.
这让我回到丹尼尔的教学方法。
The thing about echolocation is, yes, you can learn it when you get older.
关于回声定位的问题是，是的，当你长大后你可以学习它。
But it gets so much harder with age, which is why Daniel doesn't give a damn about making a little kid cry, because he thinks at the other end of those tears is sight.
但随着年龄的增长，这变得越来越困难，这就是为什么丹尼尔不在乎让一个小孩哭，因为他认为眼泪的另一端是视觉。
OK, off we go.
好的，我们出发吧。
Lulu Miller So I finally got to see one of these training sessions in action.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller）所以我终于看到了这些训练课程之一的实际效果。
We went to see a five-year-old boy named Nathan Nip.
我们去看望一个名叫内森·尼普（Nathan Nip）的五岁男孩。
OK, so what we'll do then is we'll ask Nathan's mom about parks or some place that he doesn't know.
好的，那么我们接下来要做的就是向内森的妈妈询问公园或一些他不知道的地方。
Brian's with us too, actually.
事实上，布莱恩也和我们在一起。
He's now one of Daniel's deputy teachers.
他现在是丹尼尔的副老师之一。
He can click.
他可以点击。
Lulu Miller And part of the goal that day was to get Nathan out of his comfort zone.
露露·米勒 那天的目标之一就是让内森走出他的舒适区。
But the bigger part-- and really, what is often this other major part of what Daniel is trying to teach-- is to get the people around Nathan to back off.
但更重要的部分——实际上，这通常是丹尼尔试图教导的另一个主要部分——是让内森周围的人退缩。
So we go into the house.
所以我们进屋了。
Nathan Nip I am five and a half, and Ashton's two.
内森·尼普（Nathan Nip） 我五岁半，阿什顿两岁。
[TONGUE CLICKING] Daniel Kish You have a nice smiley click.
[舌头点击] Daniel Kish 你有一个很好的笑脸点击。
Where are we?
我们在哪里？
Where do you think we are?
你认为我们在哪里？
At the field!
在球场上！
Brian Bushway At the field.
布赖恩·布什威在球场上。
Ding, ding, ding.
叮，叮，叮。
It's a sports field flanked by a really busy road.
这是一个运动场，两侧是一条非常繁忙的道路。
Nathan?
内森？
Nathan?
内森？
Lulu Miller And the idea is to make Nathan find his way around this park by himself.
露露·米勒 这个想法是让内森自己在这个公园里找到路。
So we want to use our, [TONGUE CLICKING], our clicks.
所以我们想使用我们的，[舌头点击]，我们的点击声。
And we're going to explore what's around here in this park.
我们将探索这个公园周围的一切。
Let's see if we can find anything, OK?
让我们看看能不能找到什么，好吗？
So he finds a soccer net.
于是他找到了一个足球网。
Brian Bushway Yeah.
布莱恩·布什威 是的。
He tries to find a fence at one side of the park--
他试图在公园的一侧找到栅栏——
Well, you're-- yeah, we're in the bushes.
嗯，你——是的，我们在灌木丛里。
Come back toward me.
回到我身边。
Nathan, come back toward me.
内森，回到我身边。
And then it's time to find the edge of the road.
然后是时候找到路的边缘了。
So Brian tells Nathan to walk toward those cars.
所以布莱恩告诉内森走向那些汽车。
At this point, it's just me and the godmother and Brian.
此时，只有我、教母和布莱恩。
Where's Ashton?
阿什顿在哪里？
Brian Bushway He's over there.
布莱恩·布什威 他在那边。
Everyone else is on the other side of the park.
其他人都在公园的另一边。
Can we please go to him?
我们可以去找他吗？
Brian Bushway No.
布赖恩·布什威 No.
Can I hear you click?
我能听到你点击的声音吗？
Nathan Nip [TONGUE CLICKING].
内森·尼普（Nathan Nip）[舌头点击]。
And picture this-- I mean, this is, like, a little five-year-old boy with a tiny white cane--
想象一下这个——我的意思是，这就像一个拿着白色小手杖的五岁小男孩——
Kind of tapping his way towards oncoming traffic?
有点像迎面而来的车辆？
Tapping his way toward oncoming traffic, which is a jarring sight.
他轻敲着迎面驶来的车辆，这是一个令人不安的景象。
And the person closest to him is Brian, who is also blind.
离他最近的人是布莱恩，他也是盲人。
Listen out in front of you.
在你面前听着。
Listen into the distance.
聆听远方。
And he's getting closer and closer to the edge of the road.
他已经越来越接近路边了。
Four feet, three feet, and then--
四英尺，三英尺，然后——
--his godmother just shoots out and grabs him back.
——他的教母突然射出并把他抓了回来。
And Brian kind of noticeably flinched.
布莱恩明显有些畏缩。
Let's try to stay, like, more or less behind him.
让我们试着或多或少地留在他身后。
Because while he completely understands why the godmother would reach out for Nathan, he said it is precisely that kind of moment that does the damage.
因为虽然他完全理解为什么教母会向内森伸出援手，但他说正是这种时刻造成了伤害。
Often sighted people will jump in a half a second too soon, and they rob the blind student from that learning moment.
通常视力正常的人会过早地跳进半秒，他们剥夺了盲人学生的学习机会。
And that just keeps happening over and over again, and I think so many blind people's lives, they never get that moment of what it is to really have that self-confidence to trust your senses to know, oh, if I do use my cane properly and I am listening attentively to information around me, I'll be OK.
这种情况一再发生，我认为很多盲人的生活中，他们从来没有真正拥有那种自信，相信自己的感官知道，哦，如果我正确使用我的手杖并且我认真倾听周围的信息，我会没事的那一刻。
I think part of the problem is that when we have eyes, we can see things coming from further away.
我认为部分问题在于，当我们有眼睛时，我们可以看到远处的事物。
The whole point is, like, when it's your cane and you're clicking, you catch edges at what appears like the last moment.
重点是，就像，当你拿着手杖并且点击时，你会在最后一刻捕捉到边缘。
We don't need to go any farther.
我们不需要再走得更远了。
Why?
为什么？
Why don't we need to go any further?
为什么我们不需要更进一步呢？
'Cause there's cars.
因为有车。
Brian Bushway Yeah, so it means the street's here.
Brian Bushway 是的，这意味着街道就在这里。
[TONGUE CLICKING].
[点击舌头]。
Alix Spiegel Can I ask you a question?
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 我可以问你一个问题吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alix Spiegel What if you're a half-second too late?
Alix Spiegel 如果你晚了半秒怎么办？
Right.
正确的。
Alix Spiegel Because I think that probably a lot of parents-- I mean, the thing that keeps them reaching out well before the half-second before is kind of the specter of the half-second after.
阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 因为我认为可能很多父母——我的意思是，让他们在前半秒之前伸出援手的东西是后半秒的幽灵。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Lulu Miller And what was that moment like?
露露·米勒 那一刻是什么样的？
Well, this is exactly what Nathan's godmother brought up.
嗯，这正是内森的教母提出来的。
It is hard.
这很难。
Lulu Miller She understands the dangers of a half-second too early.
露露·米勒 她明白提前半秒的危险。
He has to learn how to make that judgment.
他必须学习如何做出判断。
But at the end of the day, she is far more concerned about the dangers of the half-second too late.
但归根结底，她更担心的是迟到半秒的危险。
Which brings me to possibly the biggest thing that Daniel is up against in his quest to change expectations-- love.
这让我想到了丹尼尔在寻求改变期望的过程中遇到的最大的事情——爱。
You can't blame mom and dad for struggling and wanting to keep their child safe.
你不能责怪爸爸妈妈为保护孩子的安全而奋斗。
This is Dan Norris again from the blindness organization in Vermont.
我是佛蒙特州失明组织的丹·诺里斯。
And when we asked him if a change like the one Daniel's hoping for, a massive change in expectations, could actually take place, one of the main obstacles he brought up was love.
当我们问他丹尼尔所希望的那种改变，即期望的巨大改变，是否真的会发生时，他提出的主要障碍之一就是爱。
It's very hard as a parent with a child who's visually impaired to let go.
作为一个有视力障碍的孩子的父母很难放手。
Even when the expectations for that kid are high, he said love can get in the way.
他说，即使对那个孩子的期望很高，爱也会成为障碍。
Those parents, they want to keep their child safe.
那些父母，他们想保证孩子的安全。
They want their child to not suffer.
他们希望自己的孩子不要受苦。
And that's very noble but holds the kids back.
这是非常高尚的，但却阻碍了孩子们。
So in 10 years in the field, how many kids on bikes have you seen, blind kids on bikes?
那么在这个领域的 10 年里，你见过多少骑自行车的孩子，盲人孩子骑自行车？
Blind kids on bikes?
盲童骑自行车？
I have seen about five.
我见过大约五个。
That's actually pretty good.
这其实也不错。
Daniel Kish Yeah, I think that we are seeing society begin to change.
丹尼尔·基什（Daniel Kish）是的，我认为我们正在看到社会开始发生变化。
But when he thinks about the sheer volume of love, brimming in every household on every schoolyard and every street corner--
但当他想到每个家庭、每个校园、每个街角都洋溢着如此巨大的爱——
Are we going to get there any time soon as a nation?
作为一个国家，我们会很快实现这一目标吗？
Um, no. I don't think so.
嗯，不。我不这么认为。
And this gets us finally to what may have been Daniel's one true superpower.
这最终让我们了解了丹尼尔真正的超能力。
What most people find to be the meaning of life absolutely creeps me out.
大多数人认为生命的意义绝对让我感到毛骨悚然。
Daniel is 49 and has never been with a partner.
丹尼尔今年 49 岁，从未与伴侣交往过。
And he finds the whole idea of physical intimacy--
他发现了身体亲密的全部意义——
Unsettling.
令人不安。
Lulu Miller We had finally reached the end of our hike, the place Daniel wanted to take me.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller） 我们终于到达了徒步旅行的终点，丹尼尔想要带我去的地方。
Is this, like, awesome?
这，是不是太棒了？
Lulu Miller Yeah.
露露·米勒 是的。
It was a huge old oak tree, miles from civilization, that Daniel said was one of his favorite spots on Earth.
那是一棵巨大的老橡树，距离文明社会有数英里，丹尼尔说这是他在地球上最喜欢的地方之一。
OK.
好的。
Lulu Miller And so we climbed up it together.
露露·米勒 于是我们一起爬了上去。
Let's see where I would go.
让我们看看我会去哪里。
Lulu Miller 20 feet, 30 feet, maybe 40 feet.
露露·米勒 20 英尺，30 英尺，也许 40 英尺。
You're very high!
你水平很高啊！
And it was there in the branches that he told me he's never really been one for love.
正是在树枝上，他告诉我他从来都不是一个真正热爱爱情的人。
I was never that interested in closeness as a kid.
小时候我从来没有对亲密关系那么感兴趣。
I wasn't really a lap-sitter.
我并不是一个真正的膝上看护者。
I didn't like holding hands.
我不喜欢牵手。
I didn't really like hugs.
我其实不太喜欢拥抱。
He even used to have nightmares about it.
他甚至曾经为此做过噩梦。
A child's mind will turn things into very ghoulish, ghastly, deeply unsettling, spooky things.
孩子的头脑会把事情变成非常残忍、可怕、令人深感不安、怪异的事情。
Like what?
比如什么？
Like, what would be a nightmare about--
就像，什么会是一场噩梦——
There were two.
有两个。
Lulu Miller In one, a hand chased after him.
露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller) 其中一只手追着他。
And then the other thing were the plastic arms that want to sort engulf and unfold and just kind of take you in to themselves.
然后另一件事是塑料手臂想要分类吞没和展开，只是把你带入它们自己。
He's not sure where this comes from.
他不确定这是从哪里来的。
He wonders if it could have been the surgeries he had as a tiny boy or from the way his parents raised him.
他想知道这可能是他小时候接受的手术造成的，还是他父母抚养他的方式造成的。
Or maybe he just always was that way.
或者也许他一直都是这样。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Lulu Miller And while he's not suggesting that you need this quality to become independent, when he looks back, he wonders if this may have been one of the things that protected him from the debilitating effects of low expectations.
露露·米勒虽然他并不是说你需要这种品质才能变得独立，但当他回顾过去时，他想知道这是否是保护他免受低期望的破坏性影响的因素之一。
Because unlike the rest of us, when those arms reached out for him, he never once had any desire to fall back into them.
因为与我们其他人不同的是，当那些手臂向他伸出时，他从来没有想过再落回其中。
Everything that happens in your life has its effect.
你生活中发生的一切都会产生影响。
Has its effect.
有它的功效。
Lulu Miller And you don't think it's that Daniel became this way because he was in some way neglected or because it was too hard?
露露·米勒 你不认为丹尼尔变成这样是因为他在某种程度上被忽视了还是因为太难了？
Is there any part of you that thinks you went too far in terms of letting him be?
你是否认为自己在放任他方面做得太过分了？
No. No. He's happy.
不，不，他很高兴。
Daniel Kish Totally happy.
丹尼尔·基什非常高兴。
We sat there for a while, watching the afternoon slip away.
我们在那里坐了一会儿，看着下午的时光流逝。
Listen to how quiet it is.
听听，多么安静。
Lulu Miller And suddenly I got that pang you get when you realize it's getting dark, and you are far, far from civilization.
露露·米勒（Lulu Miller）突然间，我感受到了当你意识到天色渐黑，而你又远离文明世界时所感受到的痛苦。
And that was followed by another pang that it literally didn't matter, because he'd be the one leading us out.
紧接着又一阵剧痛，这实际上并不重要，因为他会是带我们出去的人。
Lulu Miller and Alix Spiegel of Invisibilia , the new public radio program and podcast.
新公共广播节目和播客 Invisibilia 的露露·米勒 (Lulu Miller) 和阿利克斯·斯皮格尔 (Alix Spiegel)。
Lots of public radio stations, hundreds of them, have picked up the show.
许多公共广播电台（数百家）都收听了该节目。
So check your local station's website to see if they might be carrying it and when.
因此，请检查您当地电台的网站，看看他们是否可能携带它以及何时携带。
Or to get the podcast, go to npr.org/invisibilia.
或者要获取播客，请访问 npr.org/invisibilia。
Our program was produced today by Sean Cole and myself, with Stefanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Sarah Koenig, Miki Meek, Jonathan Menjivar, Brian Reed, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, and Nancy Updike.
今天我们的节目由 Sean Cole 和我本人制作，参与人员包括 Stefanie Foo、Chana Joffe-Walt、Sarah Koenig、Miki Meek、Jonathan Menjivar、Brian Reed、Robyn Semien、Alissa Shipp 和 Nancy Updike。
Our senior producer is Julie Snyder.
我们的高级制片人是朱莉·斯奈德。
NPR's Anne Gudenkauf is the editor in Invisibilia .
NPR 的 Anne Gudenkauf 是《Invisibilia》的编辑。
She edited today's story.
她编辑了今天的故事。
Production help today from JP Dukes and Simon Adler.
今天，JP Dukes 和 Simon Adler 为制作提供了帮助。
Seth Lind is our operations director.
塞思·林德 (Seth Lind) 是我们的运营总监。
Emily Condon's our production manager.
艾米丽·康登是我们的生产经理。
Elise Bergerson's our office manager.
埃莉斯·伯格森是我们的办公室经理。
Adrianne Mathiowetz runs our website.
阿德琳娜·马修韦茨 (Adrianne Mathiowetz) 负责运营我们的网站。
Elna Baker scouts stories for our show.
艾尔娜·贝克为我们的节目寻找故事。
Research help today from Christopher Swetala.
Christopher Swetala 今天提供研究帮助。
Music help from Damien Graef.
达米安·格雷夫 (Damien Graef) 的音乐帮助。
Our website, thisamericanlife.org.
我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org。
This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.
《美国生活》由公共广播电台 PRX 向公共广播电台播出。
Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia.
一如既往地感谢我们项目的联合创始人 Torey Malatia 先生。
He says, sure, yes, it's true.
他说，当然，是的，这是真的。
He was found wearing a bathing suit standing out in the middle of the street in the middle of winter, in the middle of night, holding a quarter million dollars in cash that was not his.
人们发现他在隆冬半夜穿着泳衣站在街道中央，手里拿着不属于他的25万美元现金。
But that could happen to anyone.
但这可能发生在任何人身上。
It can happen to anyone.
它可能发生在任何人身上。
I'm Ira Glass.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
Back next week with more stories of This American Life .
下周我们将带来更多《美国生活》的故事。
This American Life is produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago and delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange.
《This American Life》与 WBEZ Chicago 合作制作，并由 PRX 公共广播电台传送到各电台。